Funding for charlie rose was provided by the following theres a saying around here you stand behind what you say. Around here, we dont make excuses, we make commitments. And when you cant live up to them, you own up and make it right. Some people think the kind of accountability that thrives on so many streets in this country has gone missing in the places where its needed most. But i know youll still find it, when you know where to look. Rose additional funding provided by and by bloomberg. A provider of multimedia news and Information Services worldwide. Captioning sponsored by Rose Communications from our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose. Whos on the show, who are the characters . I could be a character. You . Yeah, your basic character of me. So on the show there is a character named george costanza. Is something wrong with that, im a character. People are always saying to me, you know youre quite a character. And who else is on the show. Elaine could be a character, cramer. Now hes a character. So everybody i know is a character on the show. Right. And its about nothing. Absolutely nothing. So youre saying i go into nbc and tell them i got this idea for a show about nothing. We go into nbc. We . Since when are you a writer. Writer, were talking about a sitcom. laughter you want to go with me to nbc. Yeah, i think we really got something here opinions what have we got. An idea. What idea. An idea for the show. I still dont know what the idea is. Its about nothing. Right. Everybodys doing something. Well do nothing. So we go in to nbc, we tell them we have an idea for a show about nothing. Exactly. They say whats your show about. I say nothing. There you go. I think you may have something here. What can you say about Jerry Seinfeld that hasnt already poked fun at that he hasnt been talked about. He is a standup comedian that skewers modern life and modern problems with the deadon accuracy of a swiss watch. It comes each week with a hit nbc series that exams his work an life like the classic jack benny an persons and allen program. Seinfeld the Television Show reveals seinfeld the comedian as he starts and stumbles through friendships an bad career moves an love affairs an annoying feeling that adulthood itself is somewhat overrated. It gives a superb, you like this so far, a superb ensemble of cast, welcome. Why is the show so successful, do you think . I think its handmade. Its a sitcom that is not processed through a network, through a large studio system. Its a few people working on this thing. And were just doing what we think is funny. And the cast is amazing. Its an Amazing Group of talent. I mean each one of the people in our cast is could easily, easily hold down their own show. What holds it together . Whats the glue of this show . We, theres, the egos are in check, frankly. And i think were all happy to be doing good work. And we all have a lot of respect for each other. But the glue is larry david and myself working on every single line, every week of every show and its not delegated, and no one interferes. laughter do women know about shrinkage. What dow mean, like laundry . No. Like when a man goes swimming, afterwards. laughter it schridges . Shrinks . Like a frightened turtle. The creation of seinfeld. The creation of it. Yeah reasons how did it happen. Is that a question . Rose thats a question. Did larry come to you or did you go to larry. I didnt go to him as much as i kind of turned in the bar in catch a rising star an said hey, i had a meeting the other day with nbc. Theyre interested in me doing some kind of show. He said what kind of show. I go i dont know. I dont know. I have no ideas. I never have any ideas. I done know how i do these things, i have no ideas. Rose did you deally actually say that, i do standup and they like me. An hour goes by. He says you waj to get something to eat. I go yeah. So we go across the street to the korean deli on first avenue an 78th and wandering around those delies, they got all kinds of stuff in there. Rose and a lot of stuff on the street. A lot of stuff on the street. Sometimes theres weird stuff, like no labels just figure newtons wrap up in sell o feign with nothing, no identification. Rose you done know where it came from. You just go yeah,itys take a shot on that. So we start making fun on the product,. And he said this is what the show should be. I go what, just two comedians talking, because this is what comedians do, they Wander Around during the day with nothing to do and make fun of everything that they see. We should do a show about just two comedians walking down the street and making fun of everything. That was the genesis. Rose was he going to be one of the comedians. No. Rose he was always going to be the creator an writer along with you. Yeah. Rose an dave would be him. I mean george would be him. No. Rose no . Well, George George was originally a comedian in the beginning. And then we thought go george is a comedian then you have to see his act or you will want to see it, lets just make him a regular guy. Ill be a comediannd and hell be a regular guy. Rose but hes not david. We come up with story idea, which character could do this idea. And a lot of times larrys ideas fit gorge well. We never tried to make george into an alter ego of larry. Rose some say this was the perfect marriage, you and larry david. A magical relationship. Uhhuh. It was. Rose different sensibility. Uhhuh. But not different comedic sensibility. Different kind of guys. But he, it was one of those perfect partnerships where he saw a lot of big picture stories, he knew exactly what would be a great story for the show. He created tons of stories for the show and i had a great sense of mechanics of comedy and detail of lines and, you know, you know so we and we always, if any idea could pass through both of our filters, it would work. If i thought it was funny and he thought it was funny, it almost always was funny. And what if he thought it was funny and you didnt, you didnt go with it . It would depend, you know, in a partnership you giveandtake. But we had a great some kind of filtering system. Because thats what a sitcom is you sit in the office and writers come in all day and pitch you stories. And you have to say lets do that, lets not do that. And you were there by yourself, one persons instinct is really not good enough to churn out that amount of material. Rose but the test was you will never put anything on thats not funny. Well, as best you can. Theres no comedy is like hitting a baseball, you know. Youre just trying to improve your average, nobody hits a thousand. Rose what do they hit,. 300 . A good hitter can hit. 500,. 700. Rose what did you hit on this show. On this show, the tv show. Rose . 700. Maybe. Most of them were good. Theres very few clinkers out of the 180 shows. Rose there are people they say this is the best they have come ever. I love those people, where are those people r there any of them here. Are you one of those people . Rose do you believe it . No, i dont think things like that. My favorite. Rose you dont ever want to see it in print that you said this is the greatest. No, thats absurd sudden. Rose tell me one that is bigger than this, better. For me the honeymooners makes me laugh more. Rose really . I am im sitting here watch at you laugh out loud. Lets see if its funny in 50 years like the honeymooners, lets see. Rose thats true. Tell me how you and larry are different, are you more absurd or he more absurd. We take different position. Heres where were the same. We both love to kill it. We will work any amount of hours, our desire to avoid humiliation is so great in both of us, so desperately did not want to be embarrassed by each episode coming out this week and as the show became more popular, the danger of that became greater and greater. We kept saying oh my god this thing is getting popular. Now we have to maintain this ridiculous standard. So it became more and more terrorizing to run in front of this train. And but he has tremendous energy, tremendous fertility, comedic fertility. Tons of ideas, there are people in this world that funny things happen to. Rose and hes one of them. Hes one of them. Are you one of them . No, im not. I am the kind of person who when something funny happens to you, i know just how to tell it. Rose did you study comedy . I thats what i do. I mean no, you cant study you mean formally. I dont mean you go to school and say i want to be a comedian and how do i get a ph. D in comedy. But you looked at it in analytical eye and said why does that work and what do i have to do and where is my timing and where do i need to take it. Yes. Rose a young comedian comes to you and says tell me what do i need to do to be a comedian. Just work. Rose theres nothing you have a theory about logic and all of that and the absurd and you got to figure out a precise way to prove something thats unprovable . Orbltion, yeah, well, comedic, one of the things that a good comedian can do is take an absurd premise an prove it with rig lus logic, that sounds very logical and you take something completely factuous. Rose did you learn that somewhere or did it just sort of i kind of observed it. You know, i look at a lot of good jokes and realize that they have that in common. But as a kid i would write down jokes i would see on tv and try and figure out why they were funny. I never get tired of why is that funny. I never get tired of talking about it, or analyzing it. I am very scientific about it. Rose when you decided to end seinfeld. Yes. Rose you decided because larry had already left two years earlier. How is it different when he left . It was very different. I mean i didnt know if i could continue the show. I really was pretty scared about it. But i didnt feel the timing was right for the show to end. I felt the audience, you know, wasnt ready and i wasnt ready. So i just kind of took over the script writing. Rose an worked twice as hard. I worked twice as hard. And i would work with i would rotate groups with other writers am i would take three guys and they would be larry. Rose we cant imagine how hard it was for to you do this. It was fun. I was having fun, charlie, it wasnt you foe. Rose but jack welch toll me a story once, who was the c. E. O. Of general electric. Uhhuh. Rose i think he wrote about this too but im not sure. That he wanted you to continue tore another season. Yes. Rose and there was great fanfare about how much he offered you per episode, i saw a figure like 5 million. And i think he told me a story where he said he went to you and said you got to do this. We want to you do this. And you said look, i just cant imagine myself on Christmas Eve writing. And thats where i have been too many times. I think he had called me one time to talk about it as i was making the decision. And he was in some fabulous ski resort. Rose playing golf or tennis. And it was a sunday. And im in the office working, you know. And i said what are you doing right now, jack. He says well im at, you know, mount snow, in aspen. I said you know where i am, im in the office working, you know. But the work was never an issue with me. The work was all out of love and fun. My real reason for ending the show was i just felt that kind of a stage instinct of knowing when to say good night. And have the audience go oh, i wish it was just a little more. And then they leave the theatre and they go that was great. But if you go ten minutes too long, its amazing how it depresses that good feeling. And that was and even though were talking about years, i could just feel that moment. And gi you know what, if we leave now, the audience is going to be, you know, theres a thing that makes audiences jump up. And thats what it is, surprise them a little bit. Rose people have said it was a perfect instinct by you. Really . Rose they have. I hope theyre right. Rose theyre clearly right. Some said it will serve him the rest of his life. Johnny carson made the right choice. Uhhuh. Rose he left at just the right time. I did i did it for the audience. I thought if i leave now, theyll have this thing that they will never have to say it was good but then it started to kind of run out of gas. Rose toll me they stopped after like two years, he said he couldnt create as well as i used to. And before i got there, i could feel it but i hadnt gotten there. But i knew if we tried to do it one more time it might not be as good. I felt that. Rose it was time to go. I felt that also. Rose so what did you think you would do when you left. Oh, i didnt care. I dont care what i do. Then i cant tell you the big news. News . What news . Sorry. What . What . All right. But this is beyond news this is like pearl her per or the kennedy assassination, its like not even news, its total shock. Come on jerry, please, please, please, please. George costanza. Yeah . Is getting married we initially were pitching a show about how a comedian gets his material. So we would follow a comedian around in his daily life. We would go from the Grocery Store to the dry cleaner, maybe he would go on a datement we hang out with his friends and then at the end of the show he would do a monologue. Incorporate it into the monologue would be some of the things that we saw happen on the show. That, and thats ostensibly where the comedian got the material. And that was what we pitched to nbc. And nbc believed in the show so they said were committing to four episodes. Yeah, right, four episodes. Rose normally 13 or 8 or something. Yes, at least, yeah. So we didnt really think that they had too much confidence in the show. Rose was it a hit . Did you feel good about it from the beginning . I felt good just the fact that the four episodes were produced. Because i had never produced four episodes before. And frankly, i didnt know that i was capable of doing that. So just the fact that we had four shows on the air made me very excited. I didnt think about the future. I thought phew, i got by, i did the four. Okay. Lets go back to new york. Lets get on with our lives. Rose this is a reason i like you so much. Now you, the story goes that you said when they wanted more, you said more . I cant do more . Ive given you everything i have in these four episodes. Well, you know, i say it out loud. But i said it to my close personal friend. Rose jerry. Like jerry, yeah. Yeah. You know, i ran, i said look, i gave you the four things that happened to me in my life. What else can i possibly do. So then i had to actually come up with ideas like a regular writer. And i yeah, that we did 13 episodes, i had to do 13 episode 13 episodes. I almost started crying from the fear. Rose the masturbation sequence that were going to see. How dare you. You know my parents are probably going to be watching this. Rose i certainly hope so. They probably are, did you create this, was this your idea. Yeah. Rose from where . Well, its actually based on, you know, all right, i might as well say it, is based on something that happened to me. Rose you got caught, didnt you. I didnt get caught, no, i was in a i was in fact in a contest. Rose all right. Emerged victorious im proud to say, yes. Rose all right this is a famous episode in which you won an emmy. Thank you very much. Role tape. Whats the matter . My mother caught me. Caught you, doing what . You know. I was alone. You mean uhhuh. She caught you . Where . I stopped by the house to drop the car off and i went inside for a few minutes. Nobody was there, theyre supposed to be working. My mother had a glamor magazine. I started leafing through. Glamor . So one thing lead to another so what did she do. First she screamed george, what are you doing my god and then it looked like she was going to faints. She started clutching the wool, trying to hang on to it, i didnt know whether to try and keep her from falling or zip up. What did you do . I zipped up. Youre a good audience. Rose i know, i loved it. Kind of a George Michael thing, isnt it . Uhhuh, yeah, i suppose. Rose this one of the most famous episodes of seinfeld ever. Yeah, definitely. It got tremendous word of mouth, i guess. And i think it was one of the turning points in the history of the show. That and moving to thursday night. Thats what really got us over the top. Rose why did you leave . Well, charlie,. Rose i knew you were going to you see, i was feeling that i needed to no, you know, i had been there for seven years. And thats a long time to suffer the way i do in my daily life. And seven years is a long time for somebody to executive produce a show like that. Rose did you burn out. No, it wasnt burn out, i had plenty of ideas, it wasnt that. Rose oh yeah . I was learning how to do it. It wasnt that, i just thought that i felt like i was ready to do i felt hi done that and now i wanted to try Something Else. And thats pretty much it. Tell me about jerry the jerry that you know. No, tell me about it, you know this guy as well as anybody, you worked with him, you created with him, as you say you were on the same wavelength. Yeah. You watched the show seinfeld. Rose yes, i did. There you go. Rose thats it, thats all i need to know. Do you watch the show seinfeld. You watched gorge. Rose yes. There you go, thats all you need to know about me. Rose is that right . Yeah. Rose so youre like a painter who says, picasso used to say everything you need to foe about me is right here in this painting. I have had composers come here, everything you need to know about me is in that music. Im very much like picasso, in many ways. My proclivity for sex, certainly. My output. We have a lot in common, me and piccy picasso. Rose you and pablo. Yeah. No, jerry is a tremendous i will give you i will give you the quintessential seinfeld story, okay. Rose now were going somewhere. When i was, it was about our third or Fourth Season in a show i was in a room talking to a few of the writerses. And i looked at one of the writers shirts and there was something a little off about the shirt. It was sort of, it was a bit of a diagonal going down and i said has jerry seen that shirt, you know . And he said no. And i said ill bet you he comments on that shirt within ten seconds after he sees you, you know. And he said you got a bet. We bet 10 dollars. Maybe even 20 dollars. I said okay, all right. And im just about to leave the room and here he comes. He comes walking in. And i hang out at the doorway and he didnt even make eye contact with the guy and hes talking to somebody else and all of a sudden he turns and he said something to me and he goes wass the story with that shirt. Rose you know your guy. Yeah. Rose you think alike. And he knows the same thing about you. Yeah. Rose have you two ever talked about this motion of it is said that for jerry the show was fun. Uhhuh. Rose for you doing the show was suffering. You know, i also have a lot of fun too. The most fun hi was the actual writing that we did together. Those were great times. Come on, george, finish the story. The sea was angry that day, my friend. laughter like an old man trying to send back soup in a deli. laughter i got about 50 feet out and suddenly the great beast appeared before me. I tell you, he was ten stories high if he was a foot. As if sensing pie presence he let out a great bell owe. I said easy, big fella and then as i watched him struggling i realized that something was obstructing its breathing, from where i was standing i could see directly into the eye of the great fish. Whale. Whatever. What did you do next . Well then from out of nowhere a huge tidal wave lifted me, tossed me like a cork and i found myself right on top of him, facetoface with the blow hole. I could barely see from the waves crashing down upon me but i knew something was there. So i reached my hand in, felt around and pulled out the obstruction. laughter rose been asked this a thousand times. How do you explain it, that one show captured the ethos of the time. You know, if we could explain it we probably would have screwed it up. If you knew it was happening you would have screwed it up. It was, i actually did bet money against it. Jerry and i had a little wager. He said what do you think. And i said no way. Rose this is to the going to make it. I said why, i love the show and the audience for the show is me but i dont watch tv so whos coming. This is this is slightly more sophisticated level of comedy and its not what television is used to. And i just dont think were going to get anybody. And it started by attracting exactly me, you know, college boys, young men in the mid to late 20s. That was our key core audience. But then all of a sudden children were watching, 8, 9, ten years old. And my mothers generation, people in their 60s and 70s. And 80s. And we started Going International and people from other countries were d we, just, what are they getting. Rose what were they getting . I imagine that the children, i assume, were laughing at michaels antics falling down, bumping into things. I guess our parents saw us in the characters, and what they consider their crazy kids and i guess to some degree in trying to examine the minute usualia of a very specific mune experience, of urban living at a certain age and at this period of time, somehow we tapped into something universal. Somehow the little disturbances of daily life are more universal than we know. And because the show was dedicated entirely to the laugh and nothing else, there was no attempts at learning or growth or messages. It was just, we would do anything and everything and sacrifice anything to achieve the laugh. I guess what weve built with the audience was a constant there was a confidence that if they turned it on, whether it was good, bad, stupid, broad, small, whatever it was going to be, they were going to laugh. Rose where is it larry davids vision and where is it Jerry Seinfelds vision and where is it Something Else . Its hard to say. I think it was a unanimous collaboration as far as the idea of doing a show about the daily life of a come ed yen which was essentially very small thing. I mean there were no great events in Jerry Seinfelds daily life. I think that the cynicism of the show, the darkness of the show, particularly in its first four or five years. Rose let me guess. Is much more larry david than jerry. Jerry has a much lighter heart and a much younger heart. And larry is, you know, is full of darkness and little twists an turns. But it was a beautiful collaboration. And i think there was no way. Rose the dark is larry and the light is jerry. And a lot of the inspiration, larry lived across the hall from kenney kramer. So kramer is an experience in larrys life. George is certainly become a model of larry david in many respects. Elaine was sort of modelled on Carol Leiffer who was an exgirlfriend of jerries and a pal. Its all kind of there. But i think the stuff that people remember us for particularly early on came out of the notebook of larry david. I remember when we did the masturbation show. I said larry this is nut, this is nuts. He said this is the real thing. You know. Rose maybe not to you, this is my life. And everything that i thought oh, come on this is pushing credibility, he went it happened to me. I wrote this down because this has happened to mement so i think a lot of the more specific inspirations weektoweek in the beginning. Rose what is the darkness of larry . Well, larry, larry walkings around with a cloud, basically. Rose the world is going to rain on him. It will rain on him and that no one likes hem. And that really its futile to get through the day because no good can come of it. And yet hes too filled with fear and phobia to actually kill himself, so he struggles on. Rose after every episode he would say this is it. I did the pilot, i cant do any more than this, this is it. More, more . We had our first season,. Rose he said four. Four staggered him, so when 22 came up he was just oh, i cant do it. Rose so finally he left. Finally he left, yeah. Rose did the show change when he left . Uhhuh. Rose how so . I think in some way well, a lot of things happened when he left. Again, that sort of darker element, that had been established now instead of being written by a staff of guys who were in their 30s and 40s and had a little bit of that, the staff became a lot younger. The staff became, the writing staff was in their 20s. And they werent particularly dark people. So instead of living it and expressing it they were kind of writing a semblance of it. So i think the reality of the experience was one step removed. The other thing is that jerry really felt his he spread his wins. And what jerry one of jerrys favorite Television Shows was the old a bots and costello show. And i think we started to go that way for the most part. I think we started to look less and less at the small minutae of things, our intrinsic story lines got broader in their scope, a little backier, a little more in a good sense juvenile. And another thing that larry tried to do often was around the third or Fourth Season he started playing with, instead of onestory an a b story, he would have four distinct stories, onestory line for each character that would brilliantly dovetail at the end. The dovetailing seemed to stop for me. One or two would dovetail but not necessarily all four. All good story lines. But not necessarily with that same polish at the end that makes it go you had to have that in order to get that or that or that. But just as much fun. And even though there were many critics that said you know, its not the same show, you know, the audience for the most part seemed to keep saying to certainly to me when i would speak to them, that they were laughing. Rose so when you heard the crit civil over the last year criticism over the last year, did you say theyve got a point or did you say the audience, did you say the critics are out of touch with the audience . I think the critings had a point to a certain degree in that they noticed the change in the show and they were articulating the change in the showment when they want on to say therefore it is a worse show, i dont know that i agreed. I can tell you theres not an episode we did whether i thought it was a great episode or not where i dont think we had some tremendous funny moments. And so when people say favorite episode or favorite season, i go you know i really dont know because in every one of them there was something really spectacular. Rose what can you tell me about the final episode . Not much. Its its 30 minutes. It is actually an hour. Rose an hour. I think its brilliant in its idea and in its structure. And i can tell you that it brought back a lot of folks that had really been a part of our extended family over the years. Rose but its brilliant. I thought it was wonderful. Rose your postmortem on it, having lived through without being able to tell us is that it is a home run. I think it is as big a home run as you can hit. Which is to say no one is going to be satisfied. Larry is absolutely right in his paranoia about this, because he worked his guts out. And you know, theres such expectations about this thing that no one will feel satisfied. But i think what they did considering all the options that they had talked about, and one of the options, by the way, was not doing a finale episode, just doing an episode, considering the scrutiny that its going through, and the expectations and what had to be achieved, i think it is just a brilliant job. Rose close to 80 Million People are going to watch this, they think. Okay. Rose whats it going to do, are you guys go to all say to even other its been one hell of a ride. Im off for the rest of my life. See you later. To each other. Rose yeah, to each other. I hope not. You know, we do have kind of different lives. And we are four very different people. And its been an amazing relationship between the four of us. I. Rose a defining event in ones life. Yes, we have been through something amazing. Jerry before we went out to tape the final step in front of the audience for the last show we always got together backstage behind the apartment set and have a little huddle and connect with each other. And you know, as reflected in our show its not a terribly sentimental group and we never took the show very seriously to its credit. But we got into the little huddle an jerry started to mist up and cry and its not that its out of character but its just unusual. And he said you know, the four of us are index orably tied to each other, no one from this day on will think of one of us without thinking of the other three. And he said i cant think of three people i would rather be linked to for the rest of my life. And he is right. I mean, we will be, you know, the muss can tears for the till the end of our lives and it was an amazing relationship. And i cant think of a working relationship with that much attention that would, could go for that long that could be that much fun. We even under the worst of circumstances, when all the negotiations were happening and there was a lot of tension and a lot of pressure and it really got hot under the collar for a while, we still laughed. Every day that we went to work. And i cant imagine not having those people in my life. Rose it may very well be that this is, sign fell is as good as it is ever going to get for you. Uhhuh. Rose and you have to come to this idea that okay, i got enough out of it so if thats the price i paid im prepared to do that. Uhhuh. Rose right . Absolutely. I had a fascinating conversation with William Shatner a couple of years ago who is an idol of mine, by the way. And we were talking about exactly that. About how after star trek the series ended, he was very bitter that as a man in his early 30s it seemed like the thing that was going to have the greatest impact on people in his career was done. And he was bitter about it, and he tried to distance himself from it. And his career suffered for it. And his reputation suffered a little bit for it. Until finally it wasnt until 20 years later that he went i have had an opportunity to create something that will live so far beyond me, how many actors have that, how many ackers have that moment even for a moment regardless of when it comes. And he really embraced it. And he said you know, you might want to think about embracing that. Rose embracing it rather than making it your enemy. I have no illusions that anything that i am involved with from this day on will have the impact or the mass acceptance or the profitability or whatever of the upside of a seinfeld. What seinfeld has given me is the ability to now do the things that move me, that i care about. Even if they are just silly funny things. Seinfeld is not, its not my sense of humor, necessarily. My sense of humor actually has more hulinging hugging and growing. I think humor is one of the great teachers. Now seinfeld did teach but in a sort of abstract bizarre way. It now gives me the ability to go i done care if its successful to that degree and i done care if they cant afford to pay me, thats not a factor for me. What i care about now is do i want my name attach odd to it and do i care about it. That was the greatest gift, that jerry could give me. Is there any downside to this for you . Any . Not the ending of it. The doing of it. The doing of seinfeld. Rose yeah. Did this have any downside. No. Rose none . No. Other than the fact that i am not the worlds most comfortable celebrity t would not be my choice to really not be able to be anonymous. And the four of us are actually intensely private and i think thats been seen over the years. You dont see us out at the premiers and parties and at the spots. But i have found that people have been really wonderful and kind and respectful to me and my family. You know, i go to the market. I go to the movies. I live my life but i get all the press. I get all the wonderful treatment that comes with. Rose you are making good money. We made a wonderful living. My childrens lifes are secure, my familys life. Rose how tough did it get . The story is conventional wisdom is that it was you who said at the beginning, we ought to be getting more and made the argument for a Million Dollars an episode which i guess, if you believe the press, ended up at 600,000 an episode give or take what it might be, whatever the truth is, its somewhere in between. Did you begin that, was that your idea . I didnt i didnt begin the Million Dollar idea. The Million Dollar figure would actually first came out of julias mouth. But it was not it was not a. Rose why not a million, right. Well, it was not a wild, i think we should get a Million Dollars. There had been Actual Research done. Which knew that for the network that loan alone, every episode of seinfeld generated 14 million, of profit, of sheer profit. For the Network Alone let alone castle rock and the syndication participants. We had argued that after five years of being in seinfeld, there was no upside in the long run for the three of us to continue doing the show. It had made us celebrities, it had made us some money. But if we were going to be actors with careers of extended wear we needed to play different roles, continuing to put out the image of george, elaine and kramer was actually detrimental to our long run careers. So why was there any incentive for us to be in this for the long run unless those shows were extremely profitable to us. So we argued that we needed to be cut in on syndication. We needed syndication points. And we were told in so small terms to go take a hike. When we got into the bargaining chair and nbc so desperately wanted to have another season or another two seasons, we said again, syndication . Our salaries are fine. But youre making such massive profits in syndication, profits of 3 to 4 Million Dollars per show, and in, you know, to infinite, and you dont want to give us any of that . Okay. In order for us to feel good about doing this show, i want to leave the most successful half hour in the history of television knowing that i never have to work again. That is what i require. Or you cant have my services. So knowing what all the revenues were, what we would have made had they given us the syndication, what everybody was making up front, we said we had tried to figure out what percentage of the success formula of the show were the three of us. And we came up with jerry, larry, the writers, us, and everything else. The wonderful guest players, you know, all the other stuff. Well, as one fifth of that formula, we said heres the number. A million an episode. And. Rose when you us erred that number, what did they say. They did what they should have done which is laughed at us. I d and i also knew that it was detrimental to television if they made the deal with us. And if has proven to be detrimental. It is outrage us upfront money, outrage us. It is bad for television. 13 Million Dollars an episode for er . A Million Dollars each to paul riser and helen hunt for a show that is number 25, 30 in the ratings. These are bad prices. You ask for that kind of money when you are producing the kind of profit revenue that we are producing. But we couldnt ask for it on that side, they wouldnt give it to us. So we had to take it out up front. And i personally feel that we damaged the economics of television. And that nbc was foolish to give us what they gave us. But there was no way we were going to come back for anything less than the 6, the 6 was my bottom line so i guess im guilty of that. I knew that at 600,000 an episode, we would gross a certain amount, i would net a certain amount and that would pay for the rest of my life. But i thought they were foolish to maked deal. I thought they were foolish in the way they handled us. I thought that it ruined relationships. Rose it did. I think so. Rose between who . I felt that we were part of a real family with nbc. And i never had any problem if they didnt want to make a deal with us. I thought that was a perfectly legit mass. Rose you just said they shouldnt have done it. Right, but we began in december and they didnt talk to us, talk to us, really, until three weeks before it had to be a deadline. So we went through the rest of our season with our crew, with our writers, with everyone going are we coming back . Because our lives depend on this. And the three of us going were serious and theyre not dealing with us. We were the bad guys. These people couldnt make decisions about their lives or know what their lives were going to be because the three of us were playing a game of chicken with nbc because nbc wouldnt talk to us. They thought if they didnt talk to us until may 1st, that we would crumble. That we would get scared. That pers actors and we know we may never work again. And if they offered us 250 we would take it because were going to crumble. And thats not the way you deal with people that are in your family and have been working with you for nine years. Rose where was jerry in all of this . Between a rock and a hard place. As the producer of the show t is his mandate to bring the show in as inexpensively as he possibly can. That is his job, to maximize profits as the producer of that show, by keeping the costs as low as he can. On the other side of the coin, he will be the first one to say they deserve a million and then some. Hes our pal, our collaborator, hes one of the ensemble and he believed in us and he believed in our request, i really think. Because he was between a rock and a hard place he really stayed out of it. And i think we could have had a smoother ride had he not stayed out of it. But he would have had to choose one hat to wear. And i think thats a very, very difficult decision to make. So i dont blame him for staying out of it. And ultimately he did jump in at the end and say finish this, to the network am and thats the day we closed the deal. Rose when he said finish this. He said you guys better stop the shenanigans and give them what they want today or im going to pull. And so that was the final incentive to at least get it done. I cant wear this puffy shirt on tv. I mean look at it, it looks ridiculous. Well, you got to wear it now all those stores are stocking it based on the condition that youre going to wear this on the tv show. The factory in new jersey is already making them. Theyre making these . laughter yes, yes. This pirate trend that shes come up with, jerry, this is going to be the new look for the 90s, youre going to be the first pirate. But i done want to be the pirate. Rose the interest came famous ent ran of you coming. I cant tell you exactly what the episode was but i know that i came in to catch up with the scene, something was happening very quickly in the scene and i come bolting in. And it got a laugh as well as it felt right. It was just and of course it took a few shows to get to this point. But i felt that that represented kramer. That was the he sense of the character. Because i felt that is how the character steps into life. He just and he comes in to things. Also the pace of the show, its moving very fast, the matter between jerry and george. So i like to get in quick and get right to to the scene. So thats another way of looking at it. Rose it really is a combination, the success of this sitcom. Uhhuh. Rose first jerry, but then the perfect combination of ensemble actors and good writing. Absolutely. It was my third Television Show, i know about that one. Its a chemistry but its difficult to still tell you why it works. Its like trying to say why were really, really, really here on this planet. And its a mystery. No one, no one thought that the show would become as successful. I mean it tested badly. It was picked up only for four shows in the first year. The second show, just give them 13, not a full load. I dont know about that seinfeld show, okay, whats next on the schedule. Well give them 13. And then it started to catch on. We did we always had a decent following. And the second year we still had we had a share of the audience that stayed consistent. So nbc started to take note of that. Rose this is the typical interaction between jerry and kramer that doesnt need to be set up. You get the tickets . Who needs two. Oh, mamacita special sneak preview of death below. When someone tries to below you up, not because of who you are but because of Different Reasons all together. Yeah. Come on up. Hey, jerry, do you think you can get an extra particular for my friend brody. You know what i had to go through to get these. I know but he say big fan of the genre. Which consider it a personal favor to me. laughter yeah, i guess i do owe you. Do i need to say more . I mean if you look at that and dont see,. What a friendship they have that i can come in grab some ice cream and take the whole carton with me as i go out the door. Rose take more than your share on one tablespoon, but it is as it all right there. There is the energy, there is the sort of jerrys take on kramer, theres kramers right. You see the characters they were interesting. There was all of it. Uhhuh. And you just got to do that scene after scene after scene. You have to deliver the same way, doesnt it. Well, yeah. I can be in a real funky mood too. Hes on his way, hes going to have a good time, hes got a date too. That episode. Rose Jerry Seinfelds biggest talent is what . Recognizing true genius in others. He is a heck of i a writer because he write a lot of these shows. Rose does he really. With the writers, hes right in there. He knows these characters very, very well. They were conceived by he and larry david. I say his biggest talent is he knows, he knows wass funny. And ive never been held down by Jerry Seinfeld. And ill go way over. No kidding. And ill look at them and go you want to put that in. He goes, yeah. Do you think your sponge worthy. Yes, i think im sponge worthy. I think im very sponge worthy. Run down your case for me again . Well, weve gone out several times. We obviously have a good rapport. I own a very profitable electronics distributing firm. I eat well. I exercise. Blood tests, i mack you lat. And if i can speak frankly, im actually quite good at it. Are you going to do something about my side burns. Yeah, i told you. Rose it seems like only yesterday that seinfeld left the air, doesnt it, or not. Not to me, no, i mean. Rose it seems like forever. We did it a long time and i guess we finished that thing about three years ago, three and a half years ago. So its daerb but it sure was a heck of a lot of fun to do. Theres no doubt about that. Rose sure made a difference in your life. A huge difference in my life. A huge difference in my lifement a very happy difference. I mean because it was so satisfying, creatively. Rose what made it that . That satisfying, was that the fact that you let me offer a possibility. So you can choose one, abc. One, brilliantly written. Yes, correct. B, a wonderful Ensemble Group of actors. Uhhuh. Three, it just had the xfactor, something makes the magical show and that had it. Abc. I guess all three, but i would im not sure i mean i think it was extraordinary that we all were lucky enough to come together but once we came together it was sort of there. I done think there was i dont think there was magic beyond that. I mean it was just a great group of people at the right place at the right time. And we had a lot of fun. We enjoyed the process and i think that translated. Rose do you define yourself as a comedian . Or an actor. An actor. An actor. Ive never done standup or anything like that. But. Rose the thought of doing standup just send chills through you. Yes, it does, yeah, its a very different way of performing, very different. Rose and yet probably jerry today, today even, would define himself as a standup comedian more than he would as an actor or sitcom or creator or anything like that. Im sure of that, yeah. Rose thats what he loved most. Yeah, and he always said on the set he wasnt an actor. We would always tease him about. Rose about what. Tips on how to act. Walk over there, be funny. Rose you would tell him, well help you through this. Yeah, sure, yeah, he is the first one to admit it. Rose what is his genius, do you think . I think standup comedy am actually, i think that he enjoys what he does. And that comes through. Rose absolutely. Uhhuh. Rose you may have heard me say that in a conversation. Will smith talked to me about that. The idea that you if are having a wonderful time, it translatesness that is what is so great about doing seinfeld, actually. Is that we were having so much fun and then other people were dic digging it, wow this is so cool. Rose what can be better. Was saturday night live like that . No. Rose it was awful. In a word, no, no, it wasnt. Rose why not . It was a big break for me, yeah, for sure. And it was definitely a great Training Ground for me, theres no doubt. And in the the fact that it was extremely difficult to do. I was very young. And i was unbelievably naive. Rose now youre old and naive. New that im an old hag. But i didnt know how the business worked. And i didnt know how that show worked. And theres a lot of politics about getting your material on the air. You know, i came from doing sort of ensemble work and improvisational work, team and stuff like that,. Rose plus you were a graduate of northwestern. Exactly. Rose or attended. I attended. I actually left northwestern to do snl. Rose yes, i know. But at any rate that was hard. And it was hard to be a woman there. There was an alliance. Rose hard to be a woman there. What does that mean. It means they werent writing materials for women. Writers more more inclined to write for the men. Rose why is that. I just figured the guys were funnier. Rose today they have lots of female characters. They do today but this was not today, yeah. Rose this was when,. This was 1983 to 86. Rose was that a good year. 1983 . No. Rose 84. Noz. Rose 85. There were thins on the show that were good. Rose but you dont have great memories about huhuh, not really, no, i dont. Is that terrible to say, i dont really. It was fine. Im not kidding. I really did learn a lot about how the business worked. But it wasnt creatively satisfying. But i will fell you one thing, i came out of that show and i said to myself, im not going to do anything again unless its fun. Rose fun. Fun. Rose so when you got to seinfeld you say, jesus. This is fun. And what also was good, i knew larry david. Larry david was a writer on snl. And thats how come he sent me these seinfeld scripts because he knew me. And so thats something good that came out of snl too. Rose so he gets the credit for elaine, doesnt he. Yeah, sure, yeah. He wrote it. Rose i wrote it and not only that, he thought you would be perfect . Yeah, yeah. Rose i mean you walked in and they just said bingo, it was not a whole lot of maybe, maybe, maybe. No. Rose it was walk in, bingo. Weve found our elaine. Yeah. That was nice, it was great. And when we were doing sign when i read those scripts of larries and i thought are we going to be able to get away with this because that show was not written like most Television Shows. How so. It was the conversations were not particularly meaningful. They were small conversations that were funny. Rose funny right. And that appealed to me tremendously. Rose for more about this program and early episodes visit us online pbs. Org an charlie rose. Com. Funding for charlie rose has been provided by the Cocacola Company sporting this Program Since 2002. American express, and charles schwab. Additional funding provided by and by bloomberg, a provider of multimedia news and Information Services worldwide. Youre watching pbs. The following kqed production was produced in high definition. [ music ] yes, check, please people its all about licking your plate. The food is just fabulous. I should be in psychoanalysis for the amount of money i spend in restaurants. I had a horrible experience. I dont even think we were at the same restaurant. Leslie and everybody, im sure, saved room for those desserts