And by contributions to your pbs station, from viewers like you. Thank you. Please welcome David Schweickart to this program, the fa loss fer and mathematician. He proet wrote the similar text after capitalism and has been teaching students about democracy for over 40 years now im honored to slim on this program. Thanks for your time, sir. My pleasure to be here. Let me jump with this the. Text that you wrote prior to this was called against capitalism and then comes the following book after capitalism. The against e against capitalism i understand but when i saw this one dint know where you were going with that this. That title means what exactly . A little background of that even. As you say i started out my career as a mathematician, taught for a year at the university of kentucky and then kent state happened hand this kind of conversion, i dont want to teach math, you know, way dont something more meaningful with my life, im just teaching engineers are going to do the military Industrial Complex route and so on. And in between i red marks. And ways just really stunned by this. I read it as a mathematician, worked through every equation, worked through the foot notes and you will notice the cover of this book actually i dont identify it anywhere but thats the influence. But what marks did for me was convince me that theres something wrong with capitalism. I never thought about that before thepy knew other things were wrong. But the problem was, whats the alternative. Right. Marks doesnt tell you, and that becomes my research project, you know. And i developed that early on in a book called capitalism worker control but it was clear we needed a vision of an alternative. Marks didnt slifs dont fault him for that, there werent any other alt it thattives out there, no data but 150 years later weve got to know what the alternative would be. And the soviet union didnt look very attractive. So another form of socialism, not that. So i wrote this one book and then comes the collapse of the soviet union and everyones saying end of history, there is no alternative, so on. I wrote against capitalism as i dee fient response to that pat it was like there san alt naritive. We may not have the power to ever get there, but dont stla isnt an alternative. It would work and be viable and better than what weve got now. And then everything seemed calm for a period of time, end of history, and then the antiglobalization movement took place, the beat of seattle in nine 99. Its like whoa, wait a minute, things are happening again. And thats where the title changed to after capitalism it went went to a more general public but there is something beyond, and there is a movement developing that may be able to take tlus. To those who say that after capitalism is presumptive, you say what . Well, i say first of all the existing order is not sustainable, you know, theres going to be something after what weve got now. The question is, is it going to be something a lot better than weve got now or something a lot worse than weve got now . So, and its important to me, there is a movement, more and more people now the present order isnt working, you know, the longterm prospects of really terrifying in many ways, okay. Is there an alternative . And i think we need a vision. In fact, ny opalmy klein whos been on this show, her argument no is not enough is what resinates. Youve got to have a vision of something that would work and would be better. And thats the project, is to lay out a model of something that would work, it could be efficient, it would preserve some of the strengths of capitalism, because capitalism has major strengths, but without all the negatives. And thats been the project. I was looking at a house the other day and the house needs some work. I said to my realtor the house has some good bones, its got good bones. So what are the good benz of capitalism before we come to the negatives . Well, the good bones have been huge amount of, you know, innovation, technological splent thats taken place, okay, and the discovery of this mechanism and its interesting provocative on the socialist end on the market, the invisible hand. Having competition and that that actually encourages enterprises to be efficient and to search for innovative things and so on and so forth. And the model of economic democracy wants to preserve that, that isnt the fundamental problem, this competition versus cooperation. Weve got get a better balance, but preserve that, okay, and do some fundamental changes that at one level are very dramatic, another level its not going to change much right away, you wont maybe not notice it but its huge. And it can solve the massive problems that we have. And the negatives . The negatives of capitalism, massive inequality, its now getting worse and worse and worse, you know, and theyve built into the fact youve got capital, return on the capital and it just generates more and more money. You dont have to work, your heirs can yet it, that kind of thing. Youve ghot positiverty in the t of plenty. Back in the 70s when i first started working on this it wasnt long after president johnson had declared war on positive vert at this time. Were the richest country in the world we shouldnt have poverty anymore, not in the inner cities, nobody even talks anymore about eliminating poverty. Then you get this paira dox of unemployment. Youve got all these unemployed people. And almost everyone that has a job is working longer than they wish they were work the so why dont we have a system that says lets spread the work around, give people more leisure time, we didnt get that. Theres no motivation under capitalism to do that. And the big one is this need to keep growing against the environmental constraints, against the issue, its just imcompatible with really dealing with climate change, these kind of issues. It cant do that. So gored dpon gekco, make that michael douglas. Yeah. Infamously said in wall street that greed is good. How do you ever balance these issues that concern you so long as there is this thing called greed that drives so much of capitalism . Well, i mean, thats why i think we can have an Economic System that still has competition, but its not greed driven that way. So, for example, you know, the basic structure, one of the things were going to have are democratic workplace, okay. Now democratic workplaces compete with each other, its still a market so on and so forth, but you dont have a desire to drive your other the other company out of business. Now, individuals may be greedy, but the whole system isnt based on that, you know. In fact, in a democratic enterprise, everyones wellbeing is tied to the company doing well, okay. So whats good sfour good ffor people working for you and so you get a sense of cooperation. How do you how do you have a dynamic conversation, authentic conversation about fixing whats wrong with capitalism when you cant have a real conversation about raising the minimum wage . I mean it fight for 15 has certainly gained ground and traction across the country, but its happened very slowly, city by city by city. We cant seem to get traction on a Real National conversation about raising the minimum wage across this country. So if you cant do that, raise the minimum wage, how you can have a real conversation about the alternatives to capital lichlt. Well, as i say, when it becomes clearer and clearer that the problems through the have not been resolved and theyre going to get worse and lurking in the not too distant future is an economic crisis because we did not solve the problems below, which we really had Something Like that since the Great Depression in situat2008,e gradual spreading realization that we need a fundamental change. And that, my sense is, you know, consciouses can change, Political Climate can change very rapidly. I mean, having grown up in the 60s and 70s and see how formost of that period the country was behind the war in vietnam, we have to stop the communists, and then it didnt take much. Kent state was a triggering thing and suddenly whoa, majority opinion has shifted the other wear. So, i mean, i think my sense is because theres a lot going on bea beneath the surface. That was true then, that was true of the Civil Rights Movement long before Martin Luther king and the big the things were getting all the coverage and so on, there were people on the groundworking and the struggling and so on and so forth. Thats going on now. Millions of people are actually out there involved in things. Let me play devils advocate. I hear your pint about the vietnam war and so im wrestling and doodling with what kind of push bark i can gi pushback i can given you for the sake of argument and the best thing i can come up with is this. That its hard to imagine alternatives to capitalism, and its hard to imagine a serious conversation interwhats wrong with capitalism so long as the folks who are responsible for make those changes in washington are there because they are propped up by the powers that be. Right. So whether youre democrat or republican, they all get their money, more often than not from, from the same places. Its the same problem Hillary Clinton had. Its hard to fell for one thing when you talk about Goldman Sachs taking money but my point if all of you were there because the money rules everything in washington, then who are you looking to to address the issue . Thats a big debate going on now is the peoples summit. Sure. A couple weeks ago and that was one of the issues. How do we change the Democratic Party or do we go outside Democratic Party. Everyone knows weve got start now working at the grass roots level getting political power. I mean, and, you know, the people already did it with the republicans, you know, why not have Something Like that on the left that gets a genuine alternative. Because a lot of things that trump was saying appealing to people were right. I mean, the system is broken. These trade deals werent any any good, that sort of thing. If you have a vision of whats wrong, an alt fer thattive out there, when nigh naomi klein says no is not enough, shes right about that. I think it can be laid out. We need democratic workplaces, we need to get rid of wall street and have public banking. Theres bane lot of Research Done on all of these sorts of things, they work, i can say more about them, but, you know, its a system that would still be dynamic, you know, but wouldnt, i constant increasing consumption, constant growth and so on and so forth, would give people more leisure, more democratic control over their lives, more ability do the longterm planning they were going to have to do if were going deal well climate change. Its doable. Naomi klein last week did say on this program that no was not enough and this week professor schweickart says theres also something after capitalism thats the tightful his text. Again, the book after capitalism. Professor, good to have you on. Thank you for sharing your ib sight sir. Up next jenny slate on the film landline. Stay with us. Force. Please to welcome jenny slate to this program, she started as dana jacobs in the new family comedy landline which is said 70 in the mid1990s. You can also recognize this distinctive voice from two animated hits, dispick cable me 3 and the lego batman movie. Now a clip from landline. [ screaming ]. What are you doing here . What are you doing here . I asked you first. Im jed. You cannot tell mom im here, please. No, obviously im going to tell mom that you were here. God, youre like a at that time he will tail. Actually, im an adilt who was coming for a quiet weekend in the country and found her home invaded and, yeah, im going to tell mom that you were herein your underwear with that jed. Jed. That was funny. Tell me about landline. Sure. Okay. Landline is my second movie with writer director gill january rose peer and elizabeth home and its about a family in 1995 living in manhattan and two sisters who are ten years apart, dont really get along. I play dana who is very uptight and a real goody two shoes and her sister alley played by abby quinn is kind of a shes sort of a bad arkansas. Shes going to raes that night, doing experimenting with drugs and they dont get along but when they discover that their father is potentially having an affair, they become friends for the first time under that stress. And its really funny and also sort of rather sad. Yeah. The sad part comes where . The sadness is throughout, much like life. Much like much like the human experience, the sadness is finally woven in a beautiful latticework. Thats the dhiend works. Yeah, yeah, it does. Thats why i like this movie so much and why i like gillians work is that its never one thing. Yeah. Which i find to be very true to, you know, human experience. Right. Its like you laugh at funerals sometimes, its just Something Weird happens and all of your emotions there are all of the time. And its actually weird to act like theres only one mode. Yeah. Yeah. Have you always been funny . Have you always known you were funny . I dont know. I think thats a question that people ask funny people or whatever, and im pointing to myself, but i know that i did comedy. Yeah. But it feels like it would be a strange simplification of myself to say like im a funny person. But i like to make people laugh. I did notice it as a special thing or like a special a special sun that i felt shining on me when i was younger. Yeah. And it was a way for me to stand out for sure. I notice today like at camp i remember. But i never really thought of it was anything but a part of me. I think its an adulthood when people are like and this is your thing and youre like oh, i thought my thing was being myself. Yeah, yeah. Like the whole thing. Speaking of being yourself, what is it about your personality that lends itself to the comedy, to being so funny . Its a weird thing to say because i think people think comedians are dee depressive. And many of them are or live rough lives or whatever. Right. I think my comedy comes from my nature and my nature is that im very Community Oriented and i like to feel love and connection constantly. So the way that i put myself out there to say, like, i need something and im not a predator but i have needs and i have a drive. Yeah. And like thats so its i think its i mean, so cheesy to say but it feels like it comes from love. Yeah. Yeah. Self love other people love too. Im glad you said that because i dont know that ive ever talked to a comedian. Ive talked to a ton of them over the years on this program. Ive never gotten that particular answer. Your point, when you stud dit greats from prior on down. Yeah. You discover that so many of them have these dark periods in their life and they find the comedy, they find the humor, you know, running away from or at least either running away from or they find the humor in that darkness. But yours say different answer. That love is what motivates and an mates the comedy. Sure. But thats also because sometimes just like most people i very feel very, very lonely and because im afraid of not receiving love. So there is a darker element to it, its just that first of all i have both of my parents are artists and i think they recognized in me this sensitivity early on and they showed me Carol Burnett and Guilda Radnor and i identified with lily tomlin, women also. Yeah. Women. And saysa me street which is one of the first place thats thought pbs show. I know. And also id like to be on sesame street, i wish that they would let me. I can please be on sesame street, pbs . But, yeah, the dark its just that i have had a lot of support. Yeah. So its always been put to me that you need to actually make an active choice between living in the dark and living in the light. And that doesnt mean denying either one. Yeah. But that ooif just been centered ton a lot. I get super anxious. Yeah. Just try not to let it win. So since the producers of sesame street watch our program. Do they . Yeah. What do you want to do on sesame street. You want to pitch your idea . One thing its actually i saw lina horn on with grover when i was a little girl and she sings the song about saying hello. And its like, how do you do, its like really great and grover is really the one much. He out of all sesame street or all the henson stuff that i really relate to, more than telewhos verying an vus sious. Why grover . You know i have to ask this. Hes super grover, he has an alter ego but he has a soft little head and he likes to be kissed on his soft little head and that area that hes always like offering up like just, you know, hes like hes sort of normal but he is often making social mistakes. Yeah. Like when hes the waiter and he always brings the wrong thing. I remember as a little girl relating to that but also being stressed. Right. Just being like im like that. And i get it and so anyway, i would like to sing a song to grover about manners because i also feel like manners are very important. Yeah. And i think they soften us all. Yeah. If that doesnt get you on sesame street, i dont know what will. Yes, what the heck. You pitched that thing beautifully. What the h, come on. And i know the whole alphabet. Come on. [ laughter ] that is funny. Youre cracking me up. Let me get back to Guilda Radnor because i was read something stuff but in your life and career getting ready for our conversation and i ways really i was pleased but i was actually sort of humbled, even blown away i should say fwby this list of women that you listed in our conversation that youd like to hang out with and guildal radnor was on that list. Yeah. You know what list im talking about . I do. And i think on that list its Guilda Radnor and ruth gordon and madelyn con, but also msk fisher whos a food write frert early 19 hundreds. I was introduced her through my friend who say wonderful actress and so smart and she i was talking about food one day and she was like, you would really like this woman and her books. And i just tend to enjoy a female perspective that is so deep twin self and joyfully getting out into the world. I dont know that women are often offered that as a first First Alternative for how to live. Its either like its find a way to be nld world but your inner life and iefldentity is not for everybody. In the way that show everyone everything were so happy to have you. I just also believe as an artist is that you should go through everywhere and that hin concludes plants and animals. Not to gift movie away but i get the sense that when you all fill will this you were expecting a different yut come on the president ial election. Tote m. Isnt that so heartbreaking. Theres a scene i wont give away but i think you thought mrs. Clinton was going to pull this off. For sure. Of course we did. So did so many other people. Including her. Yeah. Yeah. Certainly. And, yeah, so theres footage of Hillary Clinton in the film and what i think is really interesting is that at that time Hillary Clinton was a woman who was forced to carry around the weight of her husbands sort of bad behavior. Not as the president but as a husband. And oddly that got put on her, but not oddly because under patriarch i can women hold mens experience all the time and the men go forward with what win, which say giant bummer. And hed did i fallco plays my mother and shes also tasked with keeping the secret of her husbands weakness dollars and misbee hafrz knowing that if she just as if Hillary Clinton had said, yeah, i dont like my husband for what he did, the presidency would have fallen apart for many reasons, you know. She was a major important point in that. And heddy in our movie is also forced into silence and under that stress. And there are three generations of women in this movie who feel unseen and silenced and some of it is heightened in the way that heddys is and some of it is so stressful because its normalized and thats what my character deals with and what many women deal with is the normalization of silence. You seem to have a pretty good handle on your womanhood. Me. Yeah. Im not shutting up for anyone, i cant help myself. I will leave it right there. Theres a quick exit question. Do you have a since nowadays land lines seem not to exist, do you have a favoritelined flashback . Well, my grandfather is english as a fourth language and the first time a boy called up at our house to ask me out, first of all i was 16 but for some reason my grandmother was still baby sitting me, which says a lot. But secondly she i have a friend named max. She straight up thought that his name was halt. Like cannot get a handle on names in the english language, which is odd. But so a boy called i was in the shower, i came out she was like a boy called and asked you out tonight, for tonight. I was like who was it . No one had ever dauld u called to ask me out before. She was like howard. Howard . I was like thats not from my generation. Theres nobody named howard. Im like, and we didnt have call waiting so it was like you just got to hope that this guy isnt going to be put off by my grandmother. Yeah. Or not like me because im 16 years old and my grandmother is baby sitting me. But he called back, so, yeah, we went on the date. Okay. I feel like chuck lowery and howd the date end . It was bad. Well we wont be back, we will not be back in two and two, well just leave that leave of that right where it is. The project is called landline starring generally slate. Delighted to have you here, come back again. Please have me again. I would love to have you again. And please tell the sesame street people. Come on. Believe me, they got it. Thats our show for tonight and as always, keep safe. For more information on todays show, visit tavis smiley at pbs. Org. Hi oar aim tavis smiley join me next time for selfmade billion yar john paul de jurorio, thats next time. Well see you then. And by contribute bugs to your pbs station from viewers like you, thank you. Today on americas test kitchen, julia and bridget make a spectacular korean rice bowl. Adam shows bridget his pick for the best spider skimmer. And dan makes julia the ultimate korean Fried Chicken wings. Its all coming up right here on americas test kitchen. Americas test kitchen is brought to you by the following. Fisher paykel. Since 1934, Fisher Paykel has been designing