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Like answers live my name is Don Johnson great to have you along psychedelic I know he's in the trunk of my car and the guy never shows up to work and he'll be back at some point but in the meantime we're going to do our best what an hour we have for you this hour Matt Brad is here of course you probably know that Matt speaks to tens of thousands of people every year he's the author of about a 1000000 books including Does God exist a Socratic dialogue on the 5 ways of Thomas Aquinas and one of my favorites the porn myth exposing the reality behind the fantasy of pornography has a Masters an undergraduate degrees from Holy Apostles college he does 2 of the best pod casts in the interview abs love people use things as one of them and everyone's new favorite pints with a coin I don't actually don't know how new this is Matt but this is a great I guess point to the point is Matt Fradd welcome to Catholic Answers life. That I don't thank you very much before we get into some of the things I want to talk about your latest project the one we want to focus on in this hour is called How to win an argument without losing a soul and I'm going to hold it up for our viewing audience where we go on You Tube and Twitter and everywhere else Facebook everybody who calls in this hour I don't even think you have to get on the air but everyone who calls in especially to get on the air will get a free copy of this d.v.d. How to win an argument without losing us all here's the number 8831 truth 888-318-7884 I know Matt that a lot of people struggle with this. I even wrote a book about how to talk to people how to talk to a skeptic so I'm I'm with you on this when people ask me all the time they said hey I got coworkers I got friends family they are skeptical they don't know and I just get into an argument with them now you're saying how to win that argument without losing a soul 1st I think let's talk about this I thought we were supposed to argue with people who are now you're telling us we need to win this argument what do you mean by argument now get good idea we should define our terms an argument isn't a spat it isn't a quarrel or a fight rather it's giving reasons to believe something to be true that's all it is and it's unfortunate that sometimes we'll hear even in Christian circles that we really shouldn't be with people but we should instead share our story because it seems to me that if you go to evangelize somebody tell them about the truth claims of Christianity or perhaps evangelize them on a particular moral issue the next question they might ask you at the taking you seriously is something to the effect of Well why should I believe that if you answer them coherently you'll get a helpful way you've got to give reason to believe something and it's just what I'm not going to use and so we shouldn't be afraid to pull argued and one of my favorite verses in Scripture comes from Acts Chapter 17 somewhere and say Look at that it was calibur Sad know exactly what. It's after 70 and it says that poll apart from just argue in arguing in the synagogue with the Jews he would hang out in the marketplace and argue and it says he with a chance to be there so you just get this idea of poll hanging out you know ready for an argument so we shouldn't be afraid to argue but we should do it 1st pita chips because 15 with gentleness and reverence because we've all been made for truth and goodness and beauty and so we shouldn't see each other so much as combatants but rather as brothers and sisters journeying towards the same destination God Himself Hopefully yeah I that was actually a pretty major passage in my own journey into ministry Matt is that I like to argue when I was younger and that was sort of like downplayed and then I realize what you just said like well no I mean Paul spent a lot of time going from place to place actually arguing but let me ask you this Matt because even the way we want to present an argument in the proper sense right in the philosophical sense there's a lot of people out there that don't seem to make decisions I mean you said hey if you present something the next question they should ask is Why should I believe that's true do you get the sense that our culture maybe it's just me but you get the sense that people aren't even getting to that level they're not even analyzing whether or not things to be true is basically well I don't feel good about that therefore I'm not even going to contemplate it or track you anything you know I think on a surface level I think that's true even head Oprah the other night saying that we should speak altruism speak your truth there's no such thing as your truth you may have an opinion and then there is the truth and your opinion might coincide with the way reality is so but what I think on a surface level we may want to dismiss it and say well that's not true for me. Unless we're going to be completely illogical we have to face up to the fact that objective truth exists because if you want to say objective truth does not exist you've just made a true statement and that it is. Sort doesn't and if it does then you've just refuted your own position. And if it doesn't you should have made that statement to begin with and I think so long as we journey along side people as friends and not smart alec people who are trying to get a jab in here all day by pointing out what logical fallacy they just committed I mean who wants to hang out with a person like that not me is special to be you want to do it in Latin is really that really don't you think. I think. If you just name examine their logical fallacies in Latin people love that. Because I think it I think if we're honest like all of us want to be trying to horn like all of us want to just lay the smack down and walk out while the crowd cheers drop them well yeah most of us aren't that sort of intellectually inclined. In 2nd of all we really have to journey decide people and love them and take a holistic approach and interest in their life I think that's where you'll start listening because I'm not interested in you if the only thing you're interested in doing is telling you I am wrong and why should believe what you believe but I might be and just knew if I believe that you really love me and want my good right we're talking with Matt Fradd he has an amazing d.v.d. It's called How to win an argument without losing a soul it also happens to be our topic this hour so if you've got questions about how to win arguments with those close to you Call now 888318784 we will give you a free copy of the d.v.d. We have mentioned a logical fallacies a few times here in the 1st few minutes of the show Matt what are some of the common logical fallacies that people sort of carry around maybe not realizing that they hold to them Well I think we just mentioned one and that would be something that's called self-referential incoherence such as when somebody makes a statement and upon making it refutes their own positions or if I say to you I don't speak a word of English I've refuted what I just try to say if I say to you truth doesn't exist I've just refuted what I'm trying to say that would be one and another one we see online would be the ad hominum fallacy ad hominum is a Latin phrase speaking of Latin would. Means against the man I think very often what people do is not attack the argument their opponent is making but instead they attack them and so they might say well you're a bigot you're a racist you know you stink you're a struggle you're not another might say all sorts of things I don't know but if you doubt low do they met no I wouldn't. But I mean even if these things were true I might be a horrible individual who holds a true opinion and so it's important that we you know stick to the topic at hand this is why I love Thomas Aquinas so much others noticed another logical fallacy would be a straw man that's when you misrepresent your opponent's position to more easily take it down you know and with Aquinas what he does is he steal mans his opponent's arguments that is to say what he does as he puts up his opponents best position even better than they can and then shows why it's wrong but I think you know. Fallacy of ad hominum say against the man and I think a strawman fallacy is a very very common online not just not just among the secular people that we want to refute but even among Catholics of common I think you've basically described entire world of Twitter right there is one big presidential debate big article fallacy Yeah totally You talk about Thomas Aquinas and I know that you have a very cool podcast I want you to share called pints with the coyness tell us a little bit about this Matt and how you help people argue more effectively on a podcast I think c.s.o. Points with Aquinas is a podcast I started a couple years ago now the premise is if you could sit down over a point of view with Thomas Aquinas and ask him anything what would it be and so every podcast revolves around a question that Aquinas answers and some of the o.j. . Or some out of his works and it's a way to bring the academic mind of Thomas Aquinas out of the ivory tower given the b.s. I will speak to you and me to riffraff it's me trying to help people understand Thomas Aquinas and and we have a lot to say about a lot of things and we go through them every week and I think that'll help acquaint people will. Thomas Aquinas in the teachings of the Catholic Church absolutely So go to Matt Fradd dot com I believe punch of the corners dot com will get you there as well and always go to i Tunes and just hit subscribe on that all right when we come back from this break we're going to your calls here's the number are triple 831 truth 888318784 everyone who calls into this hour gets Matt Fred's d.v.d. How to win an argument without losing a soul so call now and we'll be right back. Number one source for Catholic apologetics evangelization Catholic Answers. Can you where is pro-life mom and to get as many people as we can involved in the pro-life cause we're making Trent horns d.v.d. Making the case for life bailable for just $5.00 a copy at a savings of over 70 percent this d.v.d. Was made specifically with you in mind to help you engage in sustained and meaningful dialogue and to give you the tools you need to change people's hearts and minds so that together we might build up a pro-life culture one person one conversation at a time to get your copy of the d.v.d. Making the case for life for just $5.00 a copy called 182918004 this is the shop at Catholic dot com. Francis reminds us that it does not take a specialized degree in theology to become a great evangelist where conduit Vangelis think about the woman at the well after seeing counter Jesus she immediately went to the city and invited others to meet him as she had you and I can go out now and do the same and same cause st of Angeles nation can help get involved today by contacting us at St Angela's ation dot com that's treated Angela's ation dot com. Just like the saints of the counter-Reformation our own souls are in constant need of reform every conversion to God and His will for us we struggle with we become distracted. In prayer you find it hard to be loving and easy to be. In reform yourself McAfee shows you how these magnificent Saints can be guides to your own personal transformation. We all need to reform Let the same to reform the church show you how Order your copy of reform yourself today by calling one Triple 8 to 91000 isn't a shock a Catholic or ask you a good Catholic bookstore your. Time thinking of. The Catholics you want to meet and there's a share they can think various. Cancers line. 78. Is Catholic Answers. And the Johnson City in for cycle and you can find out more about me and Don Johnson that ministry is it done org You just heard the number to call 88318784 let me issue a clarification about this hour's giveaway because there's a lot of people calling in filling up our lines who don't actually have a question for Matt Fred in well this is Catholic Answers live and in order to provide you with an answer we need questions and so if you just want to call and get the d.v.d. I don't know you're going to have to do that some. People figure out an hour or you can just call in and get the d.v.d. If you have a question for me. Yeah exactly one cycle is back on feel free to do that ask for your free d.v.d. Now for those who have a question for Matt and I are going to plug up the phone line so if you called in a civil guess here t.v. But for all of you who are about to call in please do so with a question for Matt friend we are talking about how to win an argument without losing a soul that is the d.v.d. That we will send for instance to Pablo who called in from Atlanta Georgia with a question Pablo welcome what is on your mind. Yeah you really we're a public Oh Ok Ok my issues my my my situation my college when she she was a Catholic and then she became product Jellicoe Protestant and it's been like 2 or 3 years we've been going into a dialogue. About several topics. But I become frustrated because whatever and she's the one that brings up stuff about the Catholic Church Her main point is that the Catholic Church has man made. Doctrine. So. For example I ask her to just give me one she says well you know the papacy and so on. Or whatever and then I bring all the arguments and everything you know I research and give to her all the answers Ok What's your response what's your argument and. Most of the time she comes up empty and when she sees herself with no answers then she basically closes every conversation strain whoa whoa you know you have your opinion on how by. The Holy Spirit to. Tell you the truth you know like like I'm the one in error so you know you can 1st trading I show her all the information and everything and she basically dismisses everything like like well whatever you say. Huge So I you know thanks Paul I'm going to jump in on in there problem Matt. Yeah thanks for the question you know sometimes we can have all of the answers and express the coherently and still appear to be completely insane to the people we're arguing with I'll give you an example. One of my close relatives is and 911 conspiracy theorist Now I'm not here on the gallery as I've making any statements about this Ok it just it seems to me that it's unlikely Ok but I've never researched it now when I asked my relative Why on earth you think this was an inside job he threw about a 1000000 different arguments my way none of them did I know how to respond to I've Bailey knew what he was talking about and when I tried to give reasons to show that it was an inside job I really hadn't thought it through a great deal and so if this was a public debate this relative of mine would have absolutely wiped the floor with me but did that change my mind no it didn't in a way it's kind of made me more adamant in my own position and I think this is what happens a lot of the time right you can have all the arguments all the responses all the scripture verses and that person is simply not open to the evidence and so what I would say to you is a couple of things one take a holistic interest in this person since one makes sure that you are talking about other things beside the differences in your beliefs so that she knows that you love her but you're interested in her we mention 1st day at 315 a moment ago the very it's 3 things in 1st day 315 the 1st thing it says is in your hearts reference Christ as Lord and so I think the 1st come on to a human to was made public would be to to to live a holy life to live a prayerful life and let that be a witness to your friend and then says Always be ready to give a defense so you're doing that and it is do that with gentleness and reverence and and make sure you're doing that as well now one question you might ask your friend is this. Ok you have a lot of problems and a lot of objections to Catholic teaching what would you say is the biggest objection and let a think about that and let it come back to you and you might not even answer there on the spot but you have to see it is if you could respond to her biggest objection satisfactorily. She would then have to concede that all of these smaller objections could in theory also be answered and so rather than trying to answer a 1000000 objections at once trying to just listen to that number one objection and spend time studying and answering that the other thing I would say is spend some time asking her to talk to you about her love for Jesus Christ as she might have objections of the Catholic faith and you don't have to respond to every one of those objections then and there I think sometimes we can recognize that Al attempts to evangelize can sometimes not just be unproductive they can be counterproductive so an example might be you around the Thanksgiving table with your in-laws who aren't Catholic I think we can all agree that to bring up a particular matter of faith that we disagree with that would be counterproductive and so not to be afraid to allow her to talk to you about her love for Jesus even why she left the Catholic faith and show that you're actually interested in her as a person so that she knows you actually love her and that you want her want to seek the truth together as opposed to her feeling as opposed to her feeling like you know a sort of a conquest that you're trying to defeat or something does that make sense. I also try. To. Sell. To get away from. You know one of the things you said which I think is with addressing you said she said she you know you had your opinion I had my opinion let's see if the Holy Spirit has an opinion well you might say well isn't it possible that the Holy Spirit has settled this question like I don't know in the Bible like. Like if she's a spousal a particular view that wasn't taken seriously in the Christian community for like 1500 or 1200 years that should worry her right you might say to her show me one of the earliest Christians who held to this view because if they all held something completely different then that should keep her up at night that should worry her that would you might say good that would worry me and example I would give would be back to the regeneration Ok every single church that addresses John 3 where is it all John 3 you have to help me where he talks about he was born of water and Spirit John 35 I believe you know every church father who addressed that issue said he was talking about that baptism regeneration the idea that baptism didn't regenerate the soul didn't come about to all rigs wing Lee in the 16th century who said when it comes to this matter of baptism regeneration I can only conclude that all the fathers who talk to the church have been. Pretty arrogant thing to say but at least he's consistent but I think going back to be early church can be a helpful tactic as well. Appreciate it Pablo thank you so much for the call up before we get our next call Matt problems question here actually resonated with me a little bit especially as reference to the Holy Spirit and I found that in my discussions I'm a fairly recent Catholic convert in my discussions with evangelicals 2 things hackle raise emotions on both sides one in. The Catholic is is felt feel if it feels like the evangelical even joke a side of the Catholic is telling the evangelical that they don't know Jesus you know like oh you don't have a personal relationship with Jesus that really hurts but on the Catholic side I found personally it really hurts when they make that argument that well well that's not the Holy Spirit to get us out and I always I've come to just ask directly tell me if I'm wrong on this now but I'm just asked directly so are you saying that I don't have the Holy Spirit I guess is just bring it out like is that was your argument that you have the Holy Spirit and I don't they're hesitant usually so. Maybe I'm being too abrasive but I don't know. Well I don't know I think a different conversations with different people call for different strategies I know there's nothing so off putting down an arrogant individual and we should be humble enough to sort of examine ourselves and ask ourselves Am I being arrogant because I have Protestant friends who say that sometimes I'll turn on Catholic radio and they feel like Catholics being condescending towards them and nobody wants to convert to a religion is being condescending towards them no one's even open to hearing what that religion has to say and so on points important I think just like it's probably important you don't have those people who try to evangelize you did so with charity and gentleness Yeah absolutely All right let's go to Citroen in Galt California welcome to Catholic Answers life. Question was regarding. Question. Oh. Church. Are you are you. Yes I think one thing that would bother me if I were a Protestant and I was trying to say that the church didn't have this sort of authority that it claims to have is how do I know that the Bible is reliable so if you just focus on the New Testament. For example how do I know that the books of the New Testament are actually inspired when they were many gospels and many a pistol's floating around at the time well it turns out that it was Pope damn assist the 1st at the Council of Rome in the year 382 that 1st gave us the list of the canon but how would I know that you know it's like I have to accept the infallibility of the church if I want to accept the inerrancy of scripture to try to accept the inerrancy of scripture while denying the infallibility of the church who gave it to me is like trying to I don't know take a fruit from a tree that I didn't plant or that God didn't plant I mean you're always sort of skeptical about for example how did that Hebrews was written by an apostle when it doesn't even say that pole wrote it and so forth so that might be one way I mean you know when you read the pistoles in the New Testament your friend would say well their god guarded them from era and said well why would he continue to do that and of course the classic line is in Matthew Chapter 16 verse 18 where Jesus says you are Peter and on this rock I will build My Church and the gates of hell will not prevail against it and you've heard this before so I won't go into it but I think this is all compelling evidence to think that we can't just leave the established church and join any church you know the word catholic and try to think it was around the 818 at the turn Catholic was 1st coined and was calling to differentiate the church Christ established from the splinter groups that were around izing radical groups and just like it wasn't Ok for people to leave the church crisis abolition then it's not Ok for those to leave the church crisis now as Tim stable so often says you know even if you encounter a scandal in the church you'd never leave Peter because of Judas he says you don't even leave Peter because of Peter. That I was there. Thank you very much very good all right we're coming up on a hard break so before we do that let me give you the number again 88318784 let me tell you how to find out more about Matt Fradd go to match red dot com or go to i Tunes and just search for pints with Aquinas if you are not already subscribed to this podcast it is fantastic you will learn all sorts of things that you didn't know about Thomas Aquinas and how he applies to today's world also those who call in at this hour and have a question for Matt Fradd get the d.v.d. How to win an argument without losing your soul also so many giveaways this hour this is almost a giveaway if you go to Catholic dot com for pro-life the month of January we have 2 products there persuasive pro-life by train horn and making it the case for life a d.v.d. Both are only $5.00 that's like 70 percent. And we will be right back. Because Catholic Answers by any time at Catholic dot com. Hi this is Trent or and I'm here to tell you about my new book Hard Saints a Catholic approach to answering Bible difficulties and you to read something in the Bible that confused you break the skeptic ever asked you to explain a scandalous passage and you didn't know what to say doesn't Genesis contradict science why does the Bible promote slavery how could God order is people to kill women and children it's happened just about every But now you have a place to turn for the answers in hard sayings I look at dozens of the most confounding passages in Scripture and upper clear reasonable and Catholic keys to unlocking their true meaning after reading this book you'll be equipped to answer the toughest questions skeptics ask about the Bible so don't be left without an answer again order your copy of hard sayings today by calling 180-829-1100 extension 5 designing the shot at Catholic dot com or by asking for it at a good Catholic bookstore near you. It might be said that anti-Catholic notions of the church's history are the original fake news with all the misinformation being spread where does one look for the truth in the real story of Catholic history professor Steve widen cop gives you the facts on over 50 of the most common misconceptions about Catholic history and shows how to answer them simply and powerfully whether it's to answer claims about Catholicism supposedly pagan origins old let's about the Inquisition that never seem to go away or more modern errors that anti Catholics put forth the real story of Catholic history is an essential resource for every Catholics bookshelf order your copy of The Real Story of Catholic history today by calling one Triple 829-1000 visiting the shop at Catholic dot com or asking for it at a good Catholic bookstore near you. The best way to practice not really be able to fully celebrate in other people. What you're grateful for in your life tell when someone next to you is having a great she knew immediately go to look I'm so grateful I have my helpful I am I have been I'm thankful I have a roof over my head and all of the everything just. True . Can feel like. 7 more money sitting in for cycling the show is Catholic Answers live the guest is Matt Fradd the topic is how to win an argument without losing a soul Let's go right back to your calls Peter from Rochester New York welcome to Catholic edges like Peter. Do we have Peter. Thank you thank you my call got you all. So I had an infection about a loved one. That could be. Like New Age We have secret. Maybe Peter dropped out you would want to jump in there yeah I think his idea is from what I go to as a friend it buys into the New Age movement maybe how to respond to that is something I like to think of I think of Catholic apologetics as a 3 story mansion Ok so the 1st full is theistic apologetics the 2nd full is Christian apologetics the 3rd law is Catholic apologetics right so there's no point shouting out of the 3rd story window as it were to somebody you know bad. On the lawn they haven't even entered the 1st floor which is to believe in God I say about the inaccurate conception about the inerrancy of scripture and so forth what you're going to want to do is meet them where they are at and lead them from where they are at so if your friend does not believe in the existence of God then that's where you're going to want to meet them because if she's buying I don't know what sort of new age stuff she's buying into but she's gone well according to the Catholic faith or she's gone off the rails at some point and so it's unlikely that she has a view of God that the Christian would hold and so I think it's important to begin their right to begin with logic right. Good arguments and to see that is good reason for thinking God exists and then let's see has this God revealed Himself in history that within leads to that 2nd story who is Jesus Christ because if you believe if you don't believe that God existed to Jesus Christ is who he claimed to be then it all of a sudden becomes you know not appropriate and it shows you why it would be false to believe in many of the facets of the New Age movement. That how Peter I think. Thank you very much. The question was. Asked. Back and considered also. Yes So I think you want to take these one of the time right so if she wants to talk about past lives you would want to say what evidence to be had I think that that's true and you might want to hear her around and see if she has to say is reliable obviously is a question that sort of off the table begin with that doesn't mean you can't listen to her arguments and engage with them so I don't take these one thing at a time because I mean some things that someone might consider new age well maybe it's not you know like some people consider things new age that aren't necessarily incompatible with the Catholic faith as you want to take is one thing at a time so I don't know a great deal about hypnotherapy but maybe I again don't quote me but maybe there's a way that that can be synthesized with a truth a clear as of the Catholic faith that just has to do with using the mind to figure out certain problems and certain issues that you're dealing with Again I don't know maybe it's completely incompatible but that's why I'd say sit down and ask 0 one thing at a time to give you arguments for these things and engage you know one of the time. We appreciate the call Peter we are going to move on and we've got a full phone bank Alex has called in from Stockton California Alex your own Catholic Answers like. We have Alex. You're on Alex Alex Ok but your. Job lately. Or what can I make that claim that red. Church. Or. Treating people. How can I back up a church or what can I say when they make. So I think it's important for you to recognize what your arguing for and then to recognize what the most their argument claims or leads to so if your argument is I think it ought to be that the Catholic Church is the church Christ established and you ought to belong to it you know your argument might be something like this the Jesus Christ established a church the only church which can trace its lineage on Bergen to the time of Christ in the apostles is the Catholic Church therefore Jesus Christ established the Catholic church I suppose that's your argument and suppose they then respond to you with Catholics have done really nasty things in history all that would be what we call in philosophy a red herring fallacy this is really interesting a red herring is a fish that the train is of particular dogs like bloodhounds and such would drag across their trail to see if it would distract them from their quarry Likewise you might present a particular argument to somebody and then they might write something completely irrelevant to the argument at hand to throw you off and then you might just say well look we can address that Adelaida days but even if you're all right and Catholics have committed horrendous sins and of course they have look at Judas. That wouldn't show that Jesus Christ didn't establish the Catholic Church and the you shouldn't belong to the Catholic Church I mean if if if impeccability was one of the traits that the true religion ought to have that would write off the Jewish religion be Old Testament is the. Is filled with stories of Jewish leaders who did abominable things right King David sleeping with Bathsheba having her husband murdered and so forth so we can't look at the individual acts of particular Catholics who done atrocious things and say well then for it follows that Jesus Christ didn't establish the Catholic Church and only to belong to it because it doesn't follow at all is what we call a non sequitur it doesn't follow so again to quote my friend and mentor Tim staples you don't leave Jesus because of Judas I mean Judas was one of the 1st apostles you know the 1st bishops I mean to say when the 1st bishops ordained by Jesus Christ himself and yet he. Sold Christ to be crucified was supposed to be apostles said Look at this if this is the true Church of Christ. When that happened it will Let's go start our own Well that would be an appropriate conclusion that help Alex. Thank you very much I've already helped Thanks Alex you are welcome I let us stay on the west coast Mary has called in from San Jose welcome Mary. Thank you for taking my call Sure show you work no. I didn't fail and and I think apologetic. And in all we know. By emotional by. Logical by the logical buyers all of the logical argument. What is it going to say. But emotional buyers are hard because they. Are well a sense of connection with. What they don't really read on a logical argument so I think that thinking happened here like at what point when you're talking to somebody about the logical argument you can read that you know they don't read logical or. That really you're dealing with one motional connection or an emotional like maybe they've been one of the charges. Are they going to respond to logic. That is a really great distinction Mary you should write a book about banks that are also I will very good no it's very true people respond differently and you know one thing you may be alluding to although maybe not thinking about it explicitly is that is the of the problem of evil for example so when it comes to apologetics you might think of it as sales Ok you're trying to get somebody on board with the Christian religion you give them different logical arguments well suppose this person has been a victim of some sort of abuse by a Churchman or suppose they were raised in a Christian home with their parents claimed to be Christian and everyone thought they were Christian but actually were very sort of abusive in Maine to their children then all the logical arguments in the world may not help when somebody is suffering what they need isn't so much Christian apologetics but Christ and Christ calls us to walk with our brothers and sisters so unlike sales where you might be on a sales call when you've only got 10 minutes or 20 minutes to make the particular sale Hi. Fully when it comes to evangelization you're walking with this individual You're listening to that individual you're suffering with which is what the word compassion means right you're being compassionate to this person and you being gentle with them you know there's no need to try and get people to sign on the dotted line after the 1st discussion and I've never done that I don't think you've probably ever done that either my friend Randall rouser uses a nice analogy when it comes to beliefs that we are emotionally invested in and not willing to let go of so easily and he says this Suppose my wife says to me I'd like you to go to the attic and get the vacuum cleaner now if I know that the vacuum cleaner is by the attic door there'll be no problem I'll just go get it that represents a trivial belief Ok So suppose Mary you believe that Sydney was the capital of a strike and I said you know Mary you're wrong it's not Sydney it's Canberra you probably wouldn't put up a fight like Ok you know more than these camera could know that now those deep seated beliefs would be like the vacuum cleaner buried in the back of the attic and if my wife would ask me to go get that I might say oh goodness can we borrow a vacuum cleaner Do we really need to vacuum right now can't I go buy a vacuum cleaner because in order to get that vacuum cleaner I would have to move around a whole lot of other stuff just to get to it and I think that's a good analogy for those both those emotional beliefs maybe with very invested for example in the pro-choice position because perhaps we had an abortion and this is a very difficult subject for us so perhaps we hate the Catholic Church because we were hurt by a priest or a Catholic minister of some kind and I think those things can take a lot more time to deal with and we have to be gentle and patient with those people and sort of get to know this story and and love them if if if that helps. Great. Yeah very good well we thank you for calling in Mary we appreciate it so we're going to take a quick break and when we come back we'll have one more segment with Matt Fradd So if you've got a question about how to win an argument without losing a soul and you want to talk to the host of pints with Aquinas Matt Fred now is your time to come we'll be right back. This is the ship came by piece of Gallup to Mexico you could write your own can put and truth live. It is a train horn and I'm here with a couple of very special offers for all of you interested in standing up for the rights of the unborn January is pro-life month and to get as many people as we can involved in the pro-life cause we're making my book persuasive pro-life and my d.v.d. Making the case for Life available for just $5.00 each of the saving of over 70 percent I wrote this book I made this d.v.d. 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To the same Johnson sitting in for some I before we get back to our callers for Matt Fradd I want to remind you of a couple of things one this is a more personal note Mary just called in and talked about some of the emotional reasons that people reject the faith and as an apologist and a long time evangelist I've dug deeply into that topic and I found in fact talking with Matt about this on other shows that sex is one of those big ones sex is a huge one that keeps people out of the church and there's a lot of emotional and physical even and psychological baggage that goes with that and it prompted me actually to make a documentary about the sexual revolution that is going to be released this summer on the 50th anniversary of your money b.j. I am super excited about it going to be working with the people here Catholic Answers with some promotion on that but I just wanted to throw that out there because I am currently booking a speaking engagements for this summer and to beyond and if you want to do something around the 50th anniversary of you money and screen the new movie which has a lot of fantastic people in it please go to Donna Johnson ministries and check that out also don't forget this month is pro-life month I'm looking forward to one life l.a. Next week this month if you go to Catholic dot com You can get trend towards products persuasive pro-life and making the case for life I'll throw in the video there for only 5 bucks each It's a fantastic fantastic deal so go to Catholic dot com Now let's go back to the calls for Matt angel is called from and I'll I'm sorry I'm sorry let me let's go down to Joe Raleigh North Carolina Joe welcome to Catholic Answers live. Well. I think you my parents are they were Catholic. Before I was born became rabidly anti-Catholic. And dropped a bomb on. Looking for some advice about how to open that conversation respectfully . And they still rabidly anti catholic and what would you say the primary reason for that is. Yes they are. Pretty sure he believes the. Catholic Church is the point. It's just. Kind of really understanding what the church teaches. Yes So Babs has a couple ways you can do this and you know your parents obviously more than I do and you know how they would react to different things this is obviously a potential call on how you might do this let me just suggest a couple ways maybe you've already thought of them one might be to write a letter to the 2 of them to express your love and respect to them for them you might even in that letter talk about what you're thankful for your Protestant bringing what they have taught you about Jesus Christ if anything right that has led you to love him and then you might let them know that after a long to some and you decide to join a Catholic church you might say I know that this might make you very angry but I want you know that I love you this isn't change anything and I and I hope that you respect this decision I don't really want to argue with you I'm not I'm not even interested in converting you you might say like that's your primary motive right here you just want to kind of reiterate your respect for them and this isn't a slap in the face to them in case they would see it as that might be one way to do it another way to do it might be just let them know that you've got some really serious news that you'd like to talk to them about and you might give them time they have got some serious stuff and he told you about it and I'm not sure how happy you going to be about it and wonder if we could meet tomorrow because doing something like that gives them time to. Think about how they're going to respond if you just say how it's a big news and just drop it on them they might respond in a way that the later regret whereas if you tell them you've got some big news you want to tell them and they might be a little upset or disappointed with you and say we'll talk about it tomorrow that might allow them to sort of prepare for the news and maybe not react as hostile as as as they might have had you just dropped on them when you think about that. You know. You know the other thing Joe is the other thing Joe sort of cut you off as it just might go terribly and that has to be Ok Right yeah. So long as you are doing your best to be charitable because family have the ability to be like kryptonite when you feel like Superman I mean you can be like I'm going to is terrible that takes and sometimes you know you end up kind of losing your call or something I just pray for the grace to be charitable pray for them that they would receive it well and to recognize that your allegiance ought to be 1st to Christ before it is to your parents and you believe in Jesus Christ established church and he's called you to it that is what you have to do then how your parents will react is on them and I think it's really up to you just to do it to to express it to them as cherub Lee and as gently as possible and sort of let the chips fall where they may if you will. Thank you but do you think I don't know dude I've never been your position is I'm sorry if that's not great advice ma'am and it's the best I can come up with. Yeah it's. Only include you in my night prayed and I just I really do pray for you and your and your parents yeah God bless you yeah we do appreciate it Joe I'm mad I have been in Joe's Place and yeah everybody plays all the audience pray that's a hard it's hard I mean and I don't know that people can be could be just ask a whoever whoever is left listening right now to offer a Hail Mary right now for Joe and his parents but don't how was it for you when you had to tell your parents well stuff I mean I mean I have the best parents in the world but still I mean I don't you know it's it is difficult I I don't think you can emphasize enough that can be a very very you know rendering difficult thing so I just try to think I mean we might be listening and thinking come on just parents get with the program. You baby that would be like you all grown adult son coming to you and telling you they're committing to the judge as witnesses or something I mean how would you take it really I mean it's a big deal yeah depending on their background that is exactly right it's like a they feel it's a lot of times parents feel like it as a personal rejection of their parenting I brought you up like this what are you doing and yeah and I would also add just Joe just time you know like Matt said maybe it goes poorly made hopefully goes great you know let's pray for that but if it goes poorly I may not always go poorly Praise be to God you know my family relationships are awesome right now but man it takes time so let's continue upright Let's go to Tom calling in from Indiana Tom welcome to Catholic Answers life. Flash Rebirth. And I was wondering how do you. Why are you. Coming. This is what is what. As a great a great question Tom and I think this is something that everybody who has been in a position of expressing a viewpoint or the other person disagree with it or try to pull them on board with if you point has faced I know I have I think the 1st thing to do would be to pray for humility and a big fan of the litany of humility whenever I pray that it kicks my butt you know this idea that. There is that full and part of us we want to be right and we want people to know that we're right and we want people to agree with us and tell us how brilliant we are and then we want to be responsible for helping these people see the light you know so should rather prefer humility and to recognize that you will not have all the answers and that's Ok and I loue to this really I mean sometimes it's easy to listen to the shows and think well if only i would seem stable to Jimmy I can then I would convert this person that's not true at all 1st of all as the Holy Spirit who converts hard right not us and secondly I think it's far more important that we have a relationship with this person that we journey with this person and if you don't know something say that you don't know that thing and i believe me I've been there when people have asked me a question I don't really want to head away as it is because this kind of stumps me now it's Ok I get I don't know the answer that I'm embarrassed to say and then say Would you mind if I looked into it and got back to you I think that would be one way of getting not being combative The 2nd way is this make this resolved Ok never expect anyone to change their mind on an important issue in front of you just make that this decision from now on would ever engage with somebody I'm not going to expect that they change their mind on important opinion from me if they do that's great but don't expect it because it's very difficult again to go back to the Nalgene of the vacuum cleaner it's like and having to dig through all their other stuff and that's very taxing and so what we should do is go. Put a pebble in someone's shoes I've heard someone put it ask them questions well will you use the Socratic dialogue well. It's a rugby took That is a 1000000 you might say will they use it for the 1st 1500 years or so every Christian believed about this new generation and I just knew that would bother me but it doesn't really I guess it just just putting just a single questions like that and leaving it I think those sorts of things could can be a good way not to get combat and if you do get combat if you get flushed not to be afraid to apologize and just admit that you were wrong. That helps. Thanks very much. Matt you go I just wanted Evan sizer point I thought was an excellent one about not expecting people to change their minds in front of you I learned that as a talk radio host you know people who call in and they have an audience that's another principle they're not going to change in front of an audience I think this also applies to correct me if I'm wrong but I think this also applies to social media where people if you get into an online debate where everybody else can see it it's very difficult to get somebody to go on there and say oh yeah I get that because there's a huge audience right I know that from personal experience I've said stupid things on social media people have corrected me and I found found it very difficult to concede that point because I was embarrassed and I didn't want to admit that I was wrong I mean we're all susceptible to this and pretending we're not doesn't help any of us well what about this man even when you're right this is something that I did when I became a convert and people started putting stuff on social media against me I resolved it was hard but I resolved not to comment you would just leave the remark up there even though it might be wrong even though it was a lie even though whatever but that seemed to me if you're going to train yourself not to be combative I know that that really worked in my heart just as just the sort of take the loss if you will. Yeah to allow somebody to slander you like I'll bless a global slanted Yeah. Let's go quickly angel this is going to be quick but Angel do you have a quick comment for Matt Fradd from Anaheim. Thank you for taking the call just I think you already kind of answered a question with the rest of us but my question was like I will I'm going to go out and I like the lot of my friends that I know used to be calculating men don't come to church anymore but usually I get a lot of different answers why don't I want to come but one of the ones that always kind of pops out is like a pedophile scandal and I want to be part of the church and it's hard to contain me or to try to convince someone when they give even the people that you serve what would you recommend. First thing to do would be to admit even more strongly than them that what those priests did all bishops may have done was absolutely reprehensible and they would be thrown in prison right the rest of their life you know if those accusations were correct but if you are looking for an institution to belong to that has never committed sin or well you know going to find one if you do find one that's perfect it won't be perfect after you join it join up effect it will be a quick response there's a perfect quick result Matt Fred thank you so much for being here. Thank you very much got to go to pints with the coyness on i Tunes or punch with Aquinas dot com or match Fred dot com My name is Donna Johnson has been a pleasure to be here sitting in for site you can find me at Don Johnson Ministries dot org God bless have a great week and we'll see you next time. Please and say suffering and virtue and the existence of God are just a few of today's father Spencer's universe is next to mine e.w.t.n. For coast to coast coverage of the March for Life from Washington d.c. And One Life l.a. From Los Angeles as the faithful take a stand for the young born to suffer after decades of legalized abortion in the United States children as for coast to coast coverage of the most important pro-life events of the year it all begins January 18th e.w.t.n. t V e w t n radio. We at e.w.t.n. Radio suggest that all who are called to be Saints listen then learn to this network now wait a minute we're all called to be saints I'm Tom Grey Please join us next for the world over live with Raymond Arroyo it's e.w.t.n. Used lately with Lauren Ashburn after that then comes the rosary is a place with Father Groeschel and some another well don't forget that at 10 pm Eastern 7 Pacific it's the encore of theology roundtable with a discussion about pro-life issues this is e.w.t.n. Radio down catechism wisdom with me. And Father Larry Rich thanks for joining us here in his wisdom father Larry yes let much quiet time every day on our holy hour every day every day that's exactly every day never miss catechism says Section 779 it is important for every person to be sufficiently present to himself . In order to hear and follow the voice of his conscience this requirement of interiority other words you don't see flying around in a common language surprise you could say that my practice. It all the more necessary as a life often distracts us from any reflection self-examination. Introspection . You know you're telling me that I can't. Play solitaire on the computer while I balance my checkbook eating at Taco Absolutely I think too often people live in a fog that's going to the motions of life instead of being still you know it says in some 46 verse 11 or 10 depending on your scripture be still and know that I am God It's what I have been is next to a beautiful adoration chapel and in it right next to the bus and sacrament is a big song 46 1st 10 Be still and know that I am God and so and we perpetuate aeration here and so when people come in they do it our way over 650 people their week and they say father which I do for a whole hour and I say shut up and I go father I know you've got a shot up you've got to be still we're always being bombarded with all of this garbage throughout the world just a still and when you're still and then you're leaving yourself open for God to come and speak when you're when you're still God and can speak to your heart for us if we're going to come to experience God we must be still. A regular n.d. Now I myself in the mirror and I think what Where's the young guy when Where did where do you go wrong with this mirror honey my temptation is to focus on what I've lost because I think back on it in my youth I did not ponder the stuff of faith like I do now when I gain is. A closer relationship with Christ the doctor is then with a regular m.d. These days when pm Eastern on c.n.n. Radio. Hello This brother done all that retired piece of the earth is a dinner thank you for listening today to see in 60 am Longmont bowler in Denver here for our community today to teach ensuring our Catholic faith. Is the illegality n.t.l. Global Catholic radio. Christ is the answer but Father John Ricardo you have seen it about Jesus are you it now let's go Jesus are you perfect for Jesus are we heard of the Gospel Arlene.