P.c. World Service I'm Ed Butler and today on in the balance I'm going to be looking at the shortened longer term implications of artificial intelligence with Turkey claiming it could be ready to launch all Thomas killer drones in the near future is it time that we all thought a bit harder about how we want this cutting edge technology to be deployed in the world around us the biggest problem with automating military weapons is that you're sort of like Democrats military power non-state actors don't how nearly as much manpower a state actors which means start to make it much easier for terrorists to perpetrate massive tax Can we agree as to how to limit Ai by voluntary global rules we can see that the issues ahead but actually galvanizing governments to regulate in the right way and we don't know what the right way is that's the problem we have that's outsmarting a on in the balance with me and a panel of guests after the news. Hello I'm Tom what's with the b.b.c. News the Saudi Arabian financial authority has approved plans to try to raise billions of dollars by selling shares in the giant state owned oil producer. It could be the world's biggest ever initial public offering the announcement was made by Iran Co's chief executive I mean. This day is truly historic We are happy to announce our intention to list the Saudi am co company at the Saudi stock exchange market the company is those to be worth more than one trillion dollars business sources say the Saudis are expected to sell about one or 2 percent of Aramco Matthew Martin a journalist with Bloomberg in Saudi Arabia says that Riyadh needs the money to overhaul its economy selling off a stake in Iran. The vision of transforming the country raising money used to invest in things to come away from this reliance on oil which has been the main driver Callie and really you know if you look at the Saudi budget deficit the country needs to raise some money from external sources leaders of 10 Southeast Asian countries are holding talks with their Chinese and Indian counterparts for a 2nd day in an attempt to create the world's largest trading bloc Sanjay desk up to reports if a free trade deal can be struck because knit together half the world's population and their own 40 percent of its calmness that is what will keep the leaders at the Summit of the Association of Southeast Asian Nations in Bangkok busy on Sunday they want to trade agreement backed by China and India but India is what about opening up key industries like metals and textiles to a flood of cheap Chinese imports which is why the Indian prime minister net interim of the sounded a note of warning saying any move to open up his country's vast market should be matched by benefits to Indian business the president of El Salvador Nyad but Kalay has announced the expulsion of all Venezuelan diplomat they have been given 2 days to leave the country the president said his government no longer recognized President Nicolas Maduro as Venezuela's the just a minute head of state. Senior aides to the acting the White House chief of staff Mick Mulvaney has refused to testify in the impeachment inquiry against President Trump Robert Blais lawyers said the White House had directed him not to a pip Democrats accuse Mr Trump of putting pressure on Ukraine's leader to investigate his political opponent Joe Biden but the president again insisted the inquiry was a waste of time I'm fine with that we did absolutely nothing wrong we had a totally appropriate I even said perfect conversation with the president. Everybody knows that the Republicans have never been unified and this whole impeachment scam that's exactly what it is is the scam. Well the news from the b.b.c. . President Trump has brushed off a report in The Washington Post newspaper that smugglers a cutting through the wall on the Mexican border saying it was a powerful barrier but talking to reporters he went on to concede that in his words you can cut through anything in all fairness. The chief minister of the Indian capital Delhi says air pollution has reached unbearable levels across the north of the country quality worsened again on Sunday 2 days after the government declared that heightened pollution levels constituted a public health emergency South Asia editor Jill McGiver in reports posting on social media debt is Chief Minister Arvind Kejriwal calls on the central government to take immediate steps to provide relief and tackle the pollution his comments on likely to please government officials some of already accused him of politicizing the issue and playing a blame game I think just today show the capital's landmarks obscured by a sick blanket of toxic small Dallas airport announced that dozens of flights were diverted because of poor visibility schools have been ordered to close until Tuesday and construction work in the capital has been banned b.n.b. The company that allows people to rent properties online says it's going to stop guests using the accommodation for raucous parties the firm's chief executive Brian Chesky announced the ban after 5 people were killed at a house in the us. The chairman of the world rugby Bilbo months has described the World Cup in Japan as possibly the greatest ever that he made the comments at a news conference the day after South Africa beat England in the final it was the 1st time the tournament had been held in Asia and Mr Beaumont said it had been a ground breaking in bringing rugby to new audiences he also thanked the hosts for handling difficult circumstances including a major typhoon that led to 3 games being cancelled Mr Beaumont called South Africa's win outstanding and praised the Japanese team's performance that's the latest world news from the b.b.c. In London. Hi there welcome to a new series of in the balance from the b.b.c. World Service My name is Ed Butler and artificial intelligence is on our menu today that Orman compassing but often little understood branch of modern technology that we're told is changing pretty much everything around us from robotics to advertising from military software to political campaigning Yes it is changing our lives but how much further could it yet go and how can smart self learning technology be held in check and to account the nightmare scenarios are many is one of them killer drones tiny autonomous flying machines programs to assassinate selected targets in 2017 campaign isn't concerned scientists made a movie depiction of this imaginary near future a tech entrepreneur unveiling precisely this kind of tag. That's skill is all. It's flying itself into processor can react $100.00 times faster than a human and just like your phones and social media apps it does facial recognition . Coming from everywhere but it's just one side of the aisle you can play on people misspeak you can see high windows that are very small precisely puncture to gain entry to the building. Police are not things. That claim relaxing firearm legislation would be useless against disabled just to stay away from crowds protect your family. And extract them from slaughter boats which is for now just a fictional situation listeners do be aware don't panic but perhaps no it's not so technically implausible given current advances in automation and facial recognition in fact the Turkish military as already said it may deploy its own fleet of potentially autonomous killer drug. At least that's what it's saying in Syria over the next few months scientists and entrepreneurs from the late Stephen Hawking to must have expressed their deep fears about the potential for harm that Ai generally could represent to discuss some of the challenges I'm joined by 3 experts in the field Professor Dame Wendy hole she's reach is Professor of Computer Science at Southampton University and also was the co-chair of the u.k. Government's review on artificial intelligence Helen toner is director of strategy at the Center for Security and emerging technology at Georgetown University and young talent is one of the co-founders of the technology firm Skype he's also now co-founder of the Center for the Study of existential risk at Cambridge University welcome to you all yeah and 1st off that killer drone idea it is fiction as we heard but is it an existential risk for mankind do you think so I don't think it's an existential risk in the sense that as defined as something that will potentially killed anti human species however all of the near term risks I do think that the military is asian of Ai is is one of the most prominent ones Yeah I mean the point to be made here I guess is automated weaponry has existed for decades in all kinds of forms but it is just now we have a I know that this idea of lethal robots lethal weaponry could be released and it could have the capability to choose the targets itself in other words robots could commit war crimes potentially indeed actually the biggest problem with automating military weapons is that you're sort of like democratizing military power because the big main think that kind of separate state actors and non-state actors these days is that non-state actors don't tar nearly as much manpower state actors therefore like if you remove the need for manpower which means that you make it much easier for terrorists to perpetrate mass attacks Ellen toner this is the military. We're describing but I mean there's all kinds of areas on that where we're seeing a I introduce what we might see as well very troubling Opa Tenshi problematic areas when it comes to our own freedom and decision making Yes absolutely so aside from the military domain some of the areas were seeing potential issues include the emergence of bias in these systems so if they're being used for you know consequential decisions such as who receives a loan or who receives what kind of sentence in the criminal justice system any kind of bias is obviously a huge concern and you also have issues around sort of how transparent or interpretable these systems are again if they're being used in a military or a criminal justice or other setting where you want to really understand what's going on having a system that is hard to interpret really poses some challenges and then another area I'd point to is one place that these algorithms are deployed very widely as is online and with regard to which type of content which types of products are being recommended to us and having not being done automatically also also poses a number of challenges for example some of the radicalization dynamics that we've seen on You Tube where if You Tube is trying to get your keep cooking or videos and showing you sort of more and more outrageous videos can be a good way to do that that can also lead you down the path of radicalization and you know one of a number of different potential ideology is you know so far a lot of these companies they have a pretty good leg to stand on if they say look we're trying to give people what they want if people click on this content if that's what they want and you know we're just trying to help them find out and obviously it's more complicated than that and some of those dynamics have led to some you know undesirable outcomes but you know as a 1st cut it's hard to say that they that they did something wrong professor Wendy old I mean this is this is a very big and deep area isn't it because when you are looking at for example policy and Bill is the responses you have to deal 1st with the fact that I suppose many citizens are really not yet that scared all that bull that by a lot of what we're describing at least on the average person in the street doesn't listen. It's the conversation as a child so we're also going to be wiped out on the table names which is actually very scary and very real at the time and easy to understand. Understand the risks it is about so subtle The problem also is that the technology moves ahead so phone lost and as Young said people can pick this technology up on state taxes or state he say what he can use it faster than the Wilkens governments can regulate the buying and selling it this type of technology and the laws around it and I think that some problem that we can see the see the issues ahead but actually galvanizing governments to regulate in the right way and we don't know what the right way is that's the problem we have so a lot to talk about socially responsible and it isn't just about governments it's about really getting it when this so that people understand some of these issues and can in say in terms of what happens on the on social media can begin to judge for themselves what the right and wrong things to do think that people are becoming more aware of the beginning to do things like the Cambridge analytical story an awful lot of people or they might not understand exactly what happened have an understanding that people are interfering with Democratic voting and that was basically we're talking about targeted ads are we talking about political ads to a very specific subject or understanding how they behave because they hold a different Facebook exactly I think because dance is better than our parents and people say. Well yes people worry about governments having a lot of data on us but actually it is these companies that have the data on us economy expect government to sort all this out we as citizens have to that's why they were this is simple we have to get involved as well I mean keep in the human in the loop so that somehow can there be rules and regulations that say this technology can't be sold in a way that. Can be completely all tonight it would be illegal say to the has to be a human pressing the follow up on the cast is put out the back already but it's those sorts of things we have to think about yeah you're looking at this through that prism of risk from technology where do you see the most immediate cause for concern I mean I do think that military is like one of the really immediate concerns another one us or there was discussed at that there's like a fine line between kind of raising the awareness and or informing people and action money plating them so say I guess better and better it will not just be good I thought it doesn't but it was going to be or the seen going to spill over into starting to manipulate people Helen Yes absolutely does well in the military piece I sometimes think that the discussion gets a little bit too hooked on the idea of sort of autonomous weapons where you have a weapon making a decision to choose a target and then fire in that target very specific thing but I think the use of Ai automation is going to be much more pervasive in our sort of military systems more generally you know as you mentioned at the at the beginning there's already a long history we have of weapons that use some kind of more basic technology to choose and fire in a target without human involvement Personally I find that piece less concerning than the idea of having increasing automation throughout the kind of decision process on the battlefield and especially given that we know that these you know machine learning and I systems can be quite brittle they can respond poorly to systems that are different from ones they've seen before so I think there's also a lot to be concerned about if you're thinking about sort of larger more consequential decisions being made as well and as well the potential of different countries systems to interact with each other in unexpected ways always getting too much into a moral panic about all of this that want to and i always a good thing many would say it's helping us in all kinds of spheres medicine law enforcement simplifying comas bureaucracy all kinds of things absolutely yeah so I think the best analogy for. Something like electricity which is just an extremely. You know general purpose technology and changed how society worked in all kinds of ways and certainly simply you know electricity brought along with it new challenges and new types of products and systems and things that we needed to figure out how to deal with and so it's important to to be able to kind of look for those things and figure out how to deal with them with without as you say entering any kind of moral panic I agree with you I think overall that effect if they are likely to be an official you listen to in the balance from the b.b.c. With me at my guests young talent the at the Center for the Study of existential risk a Cambridge University professor Wendy hole professor of computer science at Southampton University and Helen toner at the Center for emerging technology in Georgetown in Washington d.c. Now we have heard a bit about the threads I would like also to talk about what we should do about it one leading thinker in this field is Professor Stuart Russell of the University of California in Berkeley he categorizes the long term problem a bit one of those Hollywood apocalypse movies involving an alien invader coming down to earth it would be as if we suddenly got an email from Alger space from a superior alien civilization saying Ok We're going to arrive in 30 to 50 years so be warned if we got such a message I think there would be consternation there would be global pandemonium there'd be emergency meetings and government crisis centers and all the rest we would try to figure out how to prepare for this and in some ways the arrival of superhuman intelligence has many of the same characteristics it is an alien invasion in a sense the main difference is that we get to design them and at the moment the way we design machines leads to the following problem right which is that intelligence is really power and if you build something more powerful than yourself. How are you going to be sure that it never has any power over you ever Professor Stuart Russell of Berkeley he's raising a particular idea isn't he Helen the old paradox when a super small computer tries to fix problems that we are setting for it it's eventually going to conclude it's better than us because it's smarter than us and therefore it should be pushing us aside in order to fulfill those tasks that we're giving it yeah I would frame it a little differently I think again an analogy I find useful here is something like The Sorcerer's Apprentice which I think originally comes from go to but is obviously you know made famous by a Mickey Mouse and in this case the system is a broomstick that the Sorcerer's Apprentice gives a command to the broomstick carries out the commander has to fetch water and doesn't understand or doesn't have any way of really knowing that the apprentice actually meant something more specific and so it gets out of hand you know almost and disastrously and of course the sorcery comes in and saves the day the important point there is not so much that at some point the system quote unquote wakes up or decides it's more intelligent and therefore superior or something like that the issue is simply if we set something in motion will we be able to to stop it or to redirect it if in fact the thing that we want to do is more subtle than what we originally said Yeah again I mean someone said once you know can we switch it off is there an off switch or it will indeed this month technology decide to override its own Off Switch to make sure that it can't be stopped or one way of describing Ai start that's what the ai field is trying to do is helping humans to delegate their decisions to machines there's muster up side with that which is like potentially our disease would be much faster much less error prone and much more competent on the other hand there's assertions are the things that we use to control our future sunny with our lives to our environment and indeed ending with the entire future of humanity so we should kind of balance this kind of from one hand or need to make better decisions by. To do it on the other hand can retain control by still keeping some crucial decisions to ourselves when the have we discovered philosophically what those crucial things we should retain in the in the design of Ai to prevent it becoming smarter than us and I don't know about preventing it becoming smarter than us some ai is already smarter than us in some so it can be the best temp and so we've already got upstate but it's in very constrained circumstances we're talking about a world which is still quite a long way away we are sort of beginning of this revolution and the talk about the moment making sure we keep a human in the loop in the in the decision making in health care for example you ask the ai to analyze the scan but then make sure there's a doctor involved in deciding whether checking the result and prescribing treatment and making sure the systems have a human in the loop and I also talk about diversity because I think it's really cool and. The whole of society is involved in the design of these systems and not just a small subset of people who can write machine learning it's all about talking with the Think systems are biased and we're all by asked just by the nature of who how we've been brought up d.n.a. And we'll blast and see pick up on the boss of the people that are designing the systems and machines just not is there yeah and we have to make sure that the decisions being made are not biased and someone somebody is checking them and that actually means costing not into the system I think Helen I'd like to know look you know more generally at how we push this forward or indeed how countries are pushing this forward China has launched as an it these Beijing principles what are they yes are those principles released earlier this year and they include sort of items along the lines of using ai for good are controlling risks owning to be diverse and inclusive making sure that there's informed consent and the. They are very similar in broad outline to principles that have come out from from many other bodies including putting the o.e.c.d. For example Yeah the e.u. Will Economic Forum I mean almost everyone is having a go on the that's right and so I think the way that to think about these these kinds of principles is really as a starting point as opposed to any kind of you know finish or useful end point because the principles sort of by their nature are quite broad they're designed as a way of sort of pointing out places where we have reached consensus you know for some definition of we so the Beijing I principles for example I think are really interesting in showing that researchers in China are thinking about these issues are wanting to show that they're moving on these issues and then the real question of course is how do they get implemented in the real world and you know honest I'm not sure that any of these principles being released by all these different organizations I think most of them have not yet been able to be converted into sort of concrete regulations but even beyond that concrete effect on how how we how we work with this technology seat and sat by and who will police it I mean people will look at China and go yeah right when they because people criticize China for excessive surveillance technology already being deployed in many parts of its country and the way it you know it monitors its own workforce is that kind of behavior does make you wonder whether just talking about it is a form of window dressing Yeah I mean it's really interesting to look at the Chinese case because some of the things that they're doing are absolutely horrific to the you know internment of hundreds of thousands or perhaps over a 1000000 Muslim leaders in the Northwest deploying I used. In that enfolds month exactly so using potentially you know perhaps using facial recognition and other forms of Ai as part of the surveillance that enables that extremely concerning at the same time it's really interesting that China when it comes to sort of corporate use of of data for example which is you know as huge huge part of the ecosystem China has actually been relatively proactive on have. That is regulated so the way that they sort of treat are that the license that they give to companies is obviously very different from the license that is given to the government bodies and so it's interesting to compare that to you know the e.u. Which is obviously being relatively proactive about about data use and compare that again to the United States which so far has been held back much more on creating any sort of federal regulation Yeah who do you think Wendy is likely to police this I mean are we going to have to have some kind of body within the United Nations or something is going to be standing over the global implementation and application of a commercial they are they can't implement it has to be employed the regulations have to be implemented in the nation states but perhaps with a special treaties with international treaties and I think the point has been made about China I coached China a lot and they all these principles in Beijing sort of has followed the the Beijing principles of full of many others as Helen said and they're all very high level so saying at the state that I should be use for the good you know how do you actually implement a regular visit to early to see understand how we do this in terms of another example in China is the basic Helen correct me if I'm wrong but my understanding is that they based You cannot law and social media and that you will go to jail if you are found to transmitted a false hood so that's that sort of stop Twitter law in China because you're not going to retreat something unless you're absolutely certain it's true. So they would now have that big social platform where you chaps like that but there are strict regulations in China about not making fools owned on social media and Singapore has just this month brought in the similar law whereas what we're looking at in the u.k. So frickin lation by the social media companies which is well the Internet harms what papers talk about and that means it pushes the policing on to the social media companies and as I rarely agree with Mark Zuckerberg but he made. Do we really want social media companies to be our police are now senses in this respect yeah I want to bring you in I mean what do you think is not to that problem well I do think that we should kind of pull all the strings that we can so from one hand there is important to going to raise the capabilities of nation states to regulate this area on the other hand I get these the individual researchers on technology companies that are in the trenches so to speak so so it would be very useful that they would be aware of the problems and thereby even if not directly incentivized as a company to work on safety for example then at least have individual people going to raise alarms and so you know because right now it feels like they're being incentivized in exactly the opposite direction doesn't it I mean the short term yes you know Helen are you optimistic that we're going to figure this out collectively given how fractured the world seems these days look I think I feel somewhat optimistic I mostly I'm intrigued to see how it all pans out one last thought that I would that I would throw in would be that I think it can be useful to say or to ask oneself ai for what when you're right when you're thinking about regulation or about ways to manage it you know sort of big broad broad a more fas concept and so asking for what are we talking about Ai for autonomous vehicles are we talking about Ai for recommending which posts come 1st in your Facebook feed you know ai for what yes are you optimistic the we have the wherewithal to agree I mean we've we've got these very vague brazing principles for example principles from the un o.e.c.d. But we got to figure it out collectively in a way that could form international treaties I am pragmatic optimist in the sense that I think it doesn't really make sense to focus on the possible future story don't make any difference or so like we should go off and focus on the worlds where it's a correction up to us humanity to change the future. Wendy these discussions are really incredibly useful for thinking about these big big issues that no one person can handle when you're a small startup. With technology we can help companies be packed Mattick about being socially responsible with doing and that's this. Was how do we help companies make sure there's this system is all biased and I think diversity and they use the funding they go out responsibly those sorts of things being pragmatic about how we do with the situation today as well as looking at these long term issues which are all hypothetical but being aware of them my thanks to all my guests Professor Dame Wendy hole in university Helen toner in Washington d.c. And Yan Tallinn of the University of Cambridge thanks to you all we are done here next week this show is going to be at the kill cannot mix festival economics and comedy mash up in Kilkenny in Ireland we'll be asking is Europe the European Union that is is it broken join Rory Catlin joins for that one for me and the team here in London goodbye. Distribution of the b.b.c. World Service and the u.s. Is made possible by American Public Media producer and distributor of award winning public radio content a.p.m. American Public Media with support from Drexel University Drexel University's academic model prepares visionary leaders to address the travel inches of the changing world Drexel dot edu slash ambition can't wait. Around the world 70000000 people start this week's edition of crowd. And. Join me. And also from the people who stutter. B.b.c. News with Tom what's the Saudi Arabian financial thorazine has approved plans to try to raise billions of dollars by selling shares in the giant state owned oil producer around it will be listed on the domestic stock exchange in what could be the world's biggest ever initial public offering around Co's chief executive I mean describe the announcement as truly historic Aramco was thought to be worth more than one of the half trillion dollars The leaders of 10 Southeast Asian countries are meeting with their Chinese and Indian counterparts for a 2nd day in an attempt to create the world's largest trading block efforts to secure an agreement to floundered as India has expressed concern about a potential flood of the Chinese imports the chief minister of the Indian capital Delhi says air pollution has reached unbearable levels across the north of the country in a statement on Twitter Arvind Kejriwal called on the central governments to take immediate steps to provide relief delis airport announced dozens of flights had to be diverted on Sunday because of the toxic smog the president of El Salvador Kalay has announced his country is expelling all of Venezuelan diplomats president became They said it was in line with his government's position not to recognize President Nicolas Maduro as Venezuela's legitimate head of state. B. And b. The company that allows people to rent properties online says it is going to stop guests using the accommodation for raucous parties This follows the deaths on Halloween night of 5 people in the affluent San Francisco suburb when a property at a rented home ended in a shootout. The chairman of world rugby Bill Beaumont has described the Rugby World Cup in Japan as probably the greatest ever it was the 1st time the tournament had been held in Asia and Mr Beaumont said it had been groundbreaking in bringing rugby to new audiences he called South Africa's win outstanding b.b.c. News. It's stream. To. The. Opera. Imagine being isolated feeling like you're stuck in a prison and then imagine struggling to vocalize those feelings. I'm going to spawn a crowd signs from the b.b.c. World Service the programme that. Questions this week stuttering Oh is hiding behind someone. Oh and I had to talk. To me speaking is everything it's how I make my living after all I'm paid to talk out loud sounds how my family that I love them or gossip with friends but the people who start speaking can be a source of fear and shame and a huge struggle something that can hamper their work love and their entire lives. This is Daniel. Bank in 2014 when he was 21 1st food today. The director of the Scandinavian branch of the stammering course of the McGuire program we made him and everyone else you'll meet in this ep. In Oslo the capital of Norway including the listener who started us on this journey Breda My question is can start to ring be overcome or is it a part of me why I asked the question What led you to want to name string is something that I've lived with all my life I've done speech exercises movement exercises breathing I've been very very fortunate that I went into a movement training in Korea. Stuttering has been a lifelong challenge for breeder so can it be cured and if not to live with it what's the science behind the starter here and we're going to investigate what life's like when talking doesn't come naturally we joined a cohort of brave young stammers you heard from some of them at the beginning of this program they've signed up for the program it's a 4 day rigorous and potentially life changing stuttering course. Before we go on it's worth saying that these are some of the bravest people I've ever interviewed they spoke to me in a 2nd language when speaking doesn't come easily We have had to edit some of these interviews so we can fit everything into the program but we've tried to retain the essence of this speech and you sometimes hear us refer to stuttering and sometimes to stammering they really mean the same thing the training can be very different from person to person but what we see is that you can either have repetitions such as. Chocolate. Research the effective stuttering treatment project at the University of Oslo They're exploring the effectiveness of stuttering treatments in children also meet Thomas sound and he's the course instructor and also a stammer if I were to say my name 56 years ago I have to take my grass day. To. Thomas like this this is radio so it may not sound as much but you could see my face really scrunched up a lot of effort. Distortion you know facial distortion or you can have prolongation such as. Go. Down. Or you can have blocks or silent process such as. Apple and stuttering can also be this many start or is hide a condition by not talking or avoiding situations that make them start or people who are trying to keep their starters secret get really good at finding replacement words to avoid once they struggle to say a thing that everyone stars. I was just not that good at hiding. It's the 1st day of the coals it's real sense of nervousness in the right posture is a fearful eyes that has just stepped outside for a 2nd time. Actually that some people become physically sick when they hear about the 1st challenge. To do is answer a few simple questions about themselves their name and their address where they go to school those kind of things this might not seem very remarkable but it is a huge challenge for a person with a lifetime of speech difficulties and so that you don't get confused by any of this like I've been. Told in a mix of Danish Swedish and even English one by one to the chair and then being felt. Both. To base. It's time for the hard work to begin. Everyone has an elastic to belt around that chased with breeze speak release. Can we just ask you describe what's happening at the moment we're all doing right now is the most fundamental thing is the beauty it sounds strange for most stammers is studying is related to give you the lack of reading. Is the idea of regulated breathing isn't new it was developed back in the 1970 s. Back then the scientific studies were less rigorous included fewer people and scientists today would prefer that but there is a general consensus about is affected. This at least for the students here it seems to work are you ready to learn to Tory Yes Yes So what do the story what have you been doing to sit opposite of each other meet any Christie So Grant further up please and after a few of the tightest you can so you can really feel your breathing off the belt around my chest under my arms so you're sitting straight you have your hands on your legs and you have to look me in the eyes. For starters they avoid looking into people's eyes to stare embarrassed when I talk shit so you look at me and the only bridge with your chest. When we breathe through their chests we get a lot more power. So I can talk to you when I used the chest to try again and take me just holding your hands in front of her chest and. Thank you sir I am every finger is laced together that is you breeze hands go down. Just follow your breathing 123. And if you do it too much she get really dizzy you see get a lot of oxygen to your brain. How much is this technique changed how you are able to speak and your starter. Well now I'm able to say my name fluently. And it helps me in school a lot and I can now become a midwife which I wanted to do and now I can because I can speak of my patients even in crisis situations. And just being confident I guess I can talk to people in the streets now I could never do that I can order things on Burger King I can talk and find. So many things I couldn't do I can say yes I feel safe I want to I was terrified when I was a kid that I couldn't get married because I couldn't say yes I have a friend. Common Cannick and he only chose that child because he doesn't have to talk to c.s. Sutter and I think that's really really sad. The organizers of the anthem and there's no cure on offer one of the most comprehensive studies on stuttering so far found there is no single treatment that works for everyone but. It's time to call. Hedo showing how he got how are you really good thank you very much really get my name is singing Cheney and I am a speech language pathologist a neuroscientist studying the neural basis of stuttering I'm in associate professor at the University of Michigan in Ann Arbor Michigan USA you annoying if I would have this conversation now to looking fluently what goes through the brain when we're trying to say something what's happening in my brain at the moment so when we speak there are vast areas of the brain that become active it's actually one of the most complex motor behaviors that humans perform and it literally involves $100.00 muscles across our aural facial or angel and respiratory systems that need to correlate within milliseconds so depending on the content of the message you wish to convey brain circuits that support memory and attention may be involved and areas that are words and grammar and rules for combining speech sounds become active as well and there are also deeper structures involved as well such as the beetle ganglia and cerebellum and that modulator the timing and initiation of speech sound articulation speaking is hugely complex and involves the Joule brain lungs larynx tongue. To understand what might be going on for a structure is we have to get deep into the brain down to individual nerve cells the part of the nerve cell that is called the x. On which can be compared to an electrical cable that part is oftentimes insulated with a fatty structure called Mylan which beat up the transmission of nerve impulses along the length of the axon So if a part of the brain has well Myla needed acts on and they are organized in the same direction without a lot of crisscrossing of these axons we would have a higher white matter integrity value. Think of the like a bundle of electric cable the cable. Maintained. The insulation around the cable is food and that. If the money in the white matter in the brain doesn't insulate the as well as it should we found that there is decreased white matter integrity in people whose daughter which suggests that the neural transmission between these areas might not be as efficient or not occur in a sufficiently expeditious manner and people who stutter one studies brain scans detail the people's brains other researches back in 2000 the study tell the brain communicates between regions millisecond by millisecond and the people who started some of these regions seem to be and to sync that study was the 1st and only study that that actually found that it seemed like there was a reversal in the sequence of the activity patterns between the speech motor and the planning region you're supposed to have the planning region activate 1st followed by the production region but that was reversed and people who stutter stutter is a trying to produce speech before the brain is told what to say with so much to play can stuff to be cured that depends on when the intervention can be offered so we know from brain development research that different parts of the brain develop during different time in your life so among all the different parts of the brain there's speech in language regions of the brain have the most attracted duration of growth which means that these areas are open to neural plasticity for longer periods in life so if you are able to provide intervention during childhood for example you have more of a chance of altering or supplementing growth in that region that could help toward recovery and. And some cases it's a little bit more challenging in adults who stutter who have had this pattern of speaking for decades but there may be new treatments on the way there have been some recent exciting new developments in this area involving noninvasive brain stimulation techniques specifically there is a technique called transcranial direct current stimulation T.C.'s that involves a very weak electrical current that is directed to targeted areas of the brain with the goal of in Hansing activity in those regions for example a researcher at University of Oxford has been conducting this trial and they have found promising results in people who stutter initial results stuttering is 1st and foremost a neurological condition but how does it come about well genes are involved he's lean from the University of Oslo again we know that stuttering is highly heritable it runs in families and we can also see that in identical twin pairs it's more common that both are stuttering are not such ring than in identical twin pairs so insistent know how common the gene package is that make people vulnerable to develop a stutter we do know that around 70000000 people across the world will stammer at some stage of their life 11 percent of children have periods of stammering before the age of full but the vast majority recover by 7 leaving less than one percent of grownups with the condition boys a $2.00 to $5.00 times more likely to start to think. So James in gender are referring to what else affects all speech research have not been able to identify all factors but what the year is center around is that individuals factors in the child such as emotions and language and speech motor. Skills can influence the answer is neither entirely down to nature. It's likely to be a bit of thanks how we feel all say influences our speech for example when I get nervous I talk more and when someone with a star marries on depression it tends to get worse so a large part of tackling stammering is psychological my. Back in those lay the participants of being promoted from breathing to saying one letter to one word and now the host sentences talking big camp. Saying we are doing the Harrison workshop which is like. Which is like a training camp. Where we exercise sit for and take 123. I can't hear you. Ok again 123. Yes. You know. With their code words so the new students about fast. It. Is soon leading up to the toughest parts of the course the aim for this session is $100.00 contacts no less after spending a couple days in the classroom the new grads have to hit the streets of Muslims and approach $100.00 strangers talking about anything asking the time or directions for example is not about talking with fluency It's about being comfortable stuttering in front of strangers and facing their fear is. That you are attending speech course. You're listening to a crowd signs from the b.b.c. World Service this week we're cracking the signs of stuttering if you too have a question for us then please email us a crowd signs at b.b.c. . Don't you k. If you are afraid of heights and you are diving tower and you think that the 3 near died is terrifying then we will make you jump from the 10 year ledge 100 times and when you have done that June the 3 metre jump which is your everyday life will seem quite manageable so this is the really vital part of the psychological part of the coax this is the very essence of it all what Thomas is describing is what. Exposure therapy is sometimes used to treat phobias although it's often used with other types of therapies for example if you're scared of spiders some therapists might use a message of slowly exposing you 1st to a picture of a spider then perhaps to a dead spider and then maybe asking you to hold one. About half the adults who start or. Suffer from social anxiety so the idea is to face the fear of being judged by other people in social situations one recent study found that exposing stutterers to social interactions of a fear does improve how they feel and think about the starter but there's no evidence that it actually helps with speaking more fluently for many people stuttering is something you want to hide if you show it more on purpose you can be proud and you can start or it's Ok then you get more self-confidence he would assume through it from the University of Oslo has been working with stuttering for over 21 years and he's one of just a few scientists who's studied them a quiet program though she says exposure therapy can be good for some people thought everyone benefits equally and it might even be counterproductive for some people it's too much. Introverts it might not be the right exercise to do and then I think too many are related it to. It's avoidance behavior you are weak you don't dare to go out but maybe it's not your type of communicating maybe it's not the right thing for you to do and I think that the McCrie program might be too strict and the McGuire program be improved as the new information to weave into it yes you have the people who are really benefiting very much it's a life changing story there's also another group who benefit from the program but they are more disappearing at and they are not so active any longer but they still find them acquire program useful and then you had the 3rd group and that is the group which is told the disappearing what is happening with them we don't know what happens after 3 months a year we don't have an it documentation of that as you would like to see. Being followed along through the course of their life to kind of evaluate the impact embrace those ideas for longer so that we can build in more revenues to express those either yes I think it is really important to collect more evidence but also at this speech therapy we also need to continue documenting over statement we asked the British stammering Association for their input they sent this statement from the c.e.o. Jane Powell he read by my producer Louisa we believe that stammering is a difference not a defect so while it is essential there is help out there for people to find ways of managing this Dhamma there is just damage should be able to stand without sense of pity or the need to sound quote unquote normal There are many different therapies and interventions which work really well and the McGuire program is an approach that has proved useful and life transforming and that should be celebrated but it doesn't work for everyone. It's pretty incredible I have. Never heard talk of this thing. Before we found a group to tag along with for some intense exposure therapy including Danish 1st time a Sebastian he's been having really good results after just one day. You've been paired up with one of the older Grimes to go into your contacts hit the streets of yeah let's go. We've come I'll insist central Oslo it is pouring with rain and now the real hard work starts to Sebastien I'm reeling there this oh god. It's just you think this is that outright. Or Nish group do you know. Where the train station is. I can't just. Thank you. Thank you for. Who my heart is pounding so hard right now your thoughts Poder your sake a good there is the biggest smile across your face it's it's so nice I didn't. Do Well that's right and I have talked to one person so that's one clear. Now that's $99.00 to go. Did you see yourself doing this when you arrived on Wednesday the course started on Thursday. I was so afraid I told my mother that I probably were. 10 they detect but here we are for the students on the coast the days working on breath control value sounds immensely overcoming their stamina has built up to one moment. In the heart of a very rare toast lay a box is placed in the center of a square each new grad has to get up on the box and give. Each to the hundreds of people who are walking by and as they do so the rain tumbles down but that doesn't deter them from showing the world and themselves just how far they've come. So close so may soon be up here at the. Top for me and for c l l nothing on my end to say what. Was it like watching Survivor stand on the box and as he says say whatever he wanted it was like seeing the son that I always I know he's like that and still be able to see him just be himself and it's one of the best moments in my life I think . It was incredible to be posts about moments and it's something that has stuck with me since to think more about the ease of which I can speak and also think about how I can help people who maybe struggle if there's somebody in your life or your work to start his how can you help them my top 3 tips for communicating with a person a starter is 1st of all do not complete a person because that can be very frustrating for the person and you actually don't know what the person is going to say secondly keep an eye contact in the communication situation and thirdly be calm and not exposed the person to time pressure. This program has followed some remarkable people on a remarkable journey the beginning some of them were physically sick of the thoughts of having to tool and they finished by talking to us on the radio and it's not very often you can you opportunity to witness lives being transformed so huge thank you to everyone who shared their stories and the scientists who helped us along the way now the last words of course go to Brita for the credits. That's it for this edition of crowd science from the b.b.c. World Service Today's question was from me Greta in Norway the program was presented by Garth Barlow and produced by Louisa field if you have a question about life Earth or the universe please email it to crowd science at b.b.c. Dot to c o u k thank you for listening. You're listening to the b.b.c. World Service on k s Eugenie 4 Corners Public Radio and Southern new tribal radio thanks for joining us this is chaos u.-t. Ignatieff Ok u g u again sheoak t.t.n. G. Durango Kikuyu chief farming 10 Q us w. Flora Vista n.k.p. G.s. Pagosa Springs we can also be heard in Cortez makers Silverton and online at k.s.u. . You can stream our signal right there on the website also on the n.p.r. News our i Tunes radio and on to news. And from our own correspondent after the news what will the future holds now Argentina.