as the vice president talked about, gaslighting us around our lived cultural experience here. there is a significant problem with that, and until we are able to speak plainly, as kimberly talked about, and call out these false equivalency's and name them, we will continue to fight these battles. >> and kimberly, listening to charles, i'm taken back to 2016, when i and other black reporters were trying ron to tell our editors and producers, hey, listen. take this guy seriously. what he is saying how dangerous this could be. and now i think, i hope, that our profession has learned that we have to speak plainly, as you said, as charles just echoed, about what's at stake here. >> i think that's absolutely right. i think journalists of color like us were the first to