Foundation of american democr y democracy. We say i cant breathe. When all in starts right now. Good evening from new york, im chris hayes. Were 49 days out from the election the country continues to be in the grips of a once in a century catastrophic pandemic. We lost over 196,000 americans in fact, just today we recorded over 1,000 american deaths i get it i get why the shock of the results of 2016 and its election has led so many people in the media and in politics and a lot of you right there on the other side of this screen, the viewers, the ones i talk to or email me, to believe that President Trump has some unquantifiable, almost imaginable power to hypnotize the voting poll louse. A lot of people feel the polls cant be right but that is not true based on the data we have right now President Trump is significantly down in the polls. Seven points behind joe biden according to the 538 average that gap is larger and much more consistent than the polling in 2016 and every day that trump remains down shows what hes trying to do, sort of transparently and desperately to stoke fear and division with his strategy is not working. No matter how many times people write articles or pundits talk about it on tv, the things the president is running on, fear, chaos, violence, are not persuading the voters he needs to persuade. Just look at the National Polling picture over the past couple of months the race has remained, again, shockingly, remarkably stable, with biden ahead by around seven or eight points. Today, there are also some new high quality polls from battleground states. Joe biden is up three points from voters in north carolina, 4946 thats bad news for President Trump. In florida, biden is up five points and the most important result today in wisconsin, where joe biden is up ten points, 52 to 42 . All right. Just over three weeks ago ke noeka, wisconsin, a Police Officer shot a black man, jacob blake, in the back seven times kenosha was racked by protests, there was arson, property damage, scuffles with police and youll remember a white vigilante charged with shooting and killing wo pr ining two pros there were headlines, how chaos in kenosha is already swaying some voters in isconsin. Its playing into trumps hands. Dems fear swingstate damage from kenosha unrest. That one from politico four days after the shooting this was going to be it, the thing that swung the polls in the president s direction, particularly in that Battle Ground state, the message from President Trump and the Republican Party was yeah, you keep protesting libs, you black lives matter folks, keep pushing and see what happens heres what happened the day jacob blake was shot, biden was up serve points in wisconsin, today he is up 6. 8 points the numbers basically have not moved. The race has not changed wisconsin voters were also asked in that new poll out today how worried they are about the risk of crime in their communities. 63 said they are not worried. Crime, along with racism, has been one of the president s main messages down the stretch of this campaigning he deployed federal forces to portland, oregon specifically to create viral mayhem content, right . Hes been warning suburban white women that new jersey senator cory booker is coming to invade their neighborhoods with low Income Housing a most desperate attempts at stoking racist backlash, and based on the data we have, maybe all of it is bunk, but i dont think so its not working i mean, when i look at american politics over the last year, i said this before on the program, sometimes i feel like my head might explode. Even i ask myself why am i doing the show so much has happened, so much has happened and so little has changed in public opinion. But one place where we can see a striking and clear cause and effect is among seniors. Take a look at this data from wisconsin. Biden leads among seniors by 24 points, 60 to 36 over 70 of seniors polled in wisconsin said they are very or somewhat worried about coronavirus. Biden is leading among seniors nationally in multiple polls a recent survey showed him up 11 points a democrat has not won voters over the age of 65 in two decades. Think about that two decades. But the reality is, nearly 200,000 people have died from the coronavirus in this country. The vast majority of the people we have lost have been Senior Citizens and President Trump has been running on a message that says old peoples deaths dont really count. Because they probably would have died soon any way. And grandma should suck it up and look at senile joe biden with one foot in the grave and amazingly that seems to be turning off seniors. President trump is not invincible he does not have some imagine wall stay over the electorate. We are in the midst of a disaster that disaster is moving public opinion, and it structures the dynamics of this race. For more on the state of the president ial race with 49 days to go, im joined by michelle goldberg, and mehdi hasan, good friends of the show. Michelle, i have to say, i get the ptsd and i get also the fear of white blaacklash as a powerf force. Those are true, there was a polling miss in 2016, white backlash can be powerful but there is a reluctance to try to see things afresh right now in terms of as clear eyed as possible as what is and is not working for President Trump. Yeah. And i mean, i have the ptsd. And i think that one thing, because it was so traumatic in 2016, its easy to forget that despite a lot of certainty going into election night, the polls were pretty unstable throughout the fall i went back and read some old stories during the conventions, and i didnt realize until i revisited it that there were polls during the Democratic Convention showing President Trump winning by a couple of points things fluctuated. Even though people couldnt imagine this, in some sense, we were in some sense we were sort of more we were less willing to let the numbers guide us in 2016 than we are now but i hope, and this isnt the first time were seeing this, right . In 2018, the president ran on the caravan and ran on white backlash and given 2016, some of us feared it work and we saw it didnt mehdi, im curious what your view of this is, why it has or hasnt worked. I mean, the president has obviously leaned into this there really has been there really have been distressing scenes in kenosha, in the aftermath of that Police Shooting there is a long legacy of appeals to this kind of identity politics for white people being very successful. What is your read of what is happening and why it isnt working . Its a great question i think the simple answer is to go back to something you said in the introduction, is he a candidate who has magical powers that he can defy the laws of politics in this country the laws of politics in this country say if youre an incumbent and theres violence and chaos on your watch, you get blamed for it. This is not 1968 even if it was, the roll rolese reversed then it was a republican challenging a sitting democratic president. Now its a republican president with a democrat challenging him. I know the chair of the gop, they are obsessed with pretending that joe biden is the sitting president , so that they can blame him for covid19 and 190,000 dead they can blame him for violence and chaos. But even in our kind of fact free world, even if our foxiified facebook world, people know that donald trump is president. That sticks and he has to defend that its his record on the line there. At one point, you mentioned consistency. Take seniors the democrats havent won seniors in 20 years. Biden was neck and neck even before covid so everything he declared in early 2019, more than 500 days ago, every single day hes led donald trump and hes eaten into Donald Trumps key groups, seniors, white people without a college education. And joe biden benefits from not being Hillary Clinton. That is one of the very simple short answers as to why hes doing well people didnt like Hillary Clinton. They dont have the same animus towards joe biden. Theres the traditional metrics of campaigns here. In 2016, those traditional mettics got thrown out the window but when you look at the idea that trump started his reelection on the first day sooner than anyone else, raising more money than anyone there are now apparently somewhat cash strapped biden and the democrats raising 364 million to 210 million if you didnt know the race and it was just x and y and you were talking about a statewide race, and you had to wipe all your preconceptions, you would have a pretty clear sense of whos win thing race, michelle right or if it was reversed, if Hillary Clinton was president and she had the numbers that President Trump has, the fundraising that President Trump has, democrats probably would have given up. They would be in utter despair i do think, though, that its important, again, because there are a lot of reasons for democrats to still be as anxious as they are. We still dont know if this is going to be a free and Fair Election we do have the kind of the influence of the Electoral College, even if joe biden is ahead in swing states. So the trick for democrats is to feel confident, not be paralyzed by anxiety and understand the end to this nightmare is within their reach. And at the same time, not to be complacent i think people probably wont be complacent, because they were there once before. But i do think people should look back on 2016 and think about what they wish they had done in the months before that happened and do that now its a great point. I agree. Like i dont think theres much risk for complacency in some ways, when we talk about mailin voting and sort of the efforts of vote suppression and these crazy lawsuits being filed left and right, the danger there is some sense of impotence ive talked to Voting Rights advocates, the story itself about your vote is going to get lost in the mail acts as a disincentive like the fundamental lever here, which is like things are bad in the country, we should vote out the incumbent president , that that at least rustily working to me is an incentive to keep pushing on the lever and nothing is a sure thing michelle laid out the reasons he could win again. The Electoral College has a massive bias towards him but creaking out the incumbent, what we have done is we have overcorrected. In 2016, many of us, myself included, thought trump cant win. Now we have the other extreme where a lot of people think trump cant lose i think we need to find a middle ground when we talk about polls in 2016, they got some things wrong statewide. Heres the big question, we had an election since 2016, the 2018 midterms, there was a blue wave. They did very well Winning Senate and governorship races in michigan, wisconsin, pennsylvania those are all good signs i dont know anyone who doesnt like President Trump who is complacent about this election ive never meant anyone that goes, hes done for, not a single american who says that. To your point about 2018, michelle, that was also the product of sort of structural factors and backlash, but it was like a lot of people did put their energy into voter contact and mobilizing in lots of ways the Campaign Manager for joe biden gave a press call where she talked about were not knocking on doors because we dont think its safe, but were doing a ton of voter contact there is a lot going on in this campaign i think thats another reason that people are so anxious, right . In the past, if you were anxious, you could go to a swing state and get a sense of the situation on the ground. Now a lot of the campaigning is so invisible i spoke to the chair of the Democratic Party in wisconsin today. And sort of said, you know, should i be anxious that people arent out there knocking doors for democrats . And he is really confident that these phone calls and relational organizing, you know, they have kind of an app where you can reach out to people in your contacts who need to be reached by volunteers. They have the tools but you cant see it if youre not involved and, again, its also a big experiment we can feel confident. We can think that this is going to work. But its a fact that were going into this election with a set of conditions that are unprecedented. Always great to talk to both of you next up, public trust in a Coronavirus Vaccine is dwindling as the president claims one could be ready just in time for the election what will happen when we do get a vaccine, which is crucial . After this tech at safelite, were here for you with safe, convenient service. Tech well come right to you. Upbeat music tech youll get a text when were on our way. Tech before we arrive, just leave your keys on the dash. Well replace your windshield with safe, nocontact service. 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We miss your lets do this look, the sound of your laugh cry screams, and how you make every day here the best day ever. We cant wait to get you back so weve added temp checks, face coverings, social distancing and extra sanitizing to get the good times going again. Were finally back. And cant wait until you are too. Buy now and get two days free at the parks. Restrictions apply. President trump has destroyed the reputational capital, the trust, the corner stone of constructing the infrastructure needed to deliver us from this nightmare and to vaccinate americans against this virus. The polling shows we have a real problem on our hands people were asked if they were to get a vaccine in april, 72 yes. This month, the number is just 51 . Astoundingly, in a new poll, only 26 of people said they trust what President Trump has to say about vaccines. Thats only about a quarter of those polled a big driver of this is that President Trump has politicized the treatment and vaccine process from the very beginning. We have actual concrete examples of him pressure the food and Drug Administration specifically on the unproven treatments of hydroxychloroquine and plasma. Hes also but promised a vaccine by election day, despite the fact that Scientists Say that is almost not possible. Hes taken the reputational capital of these scientific Public Health agencies, which were already under assault from antivaxers, and hes blown it for his shortterm personal benefit. Now, republicans have the gal to turn around and try to make it a political issue if democrats say theyre uneasy about this. Like Vice President ial nominee Kamala Harris expressing concerns so lets just say theres a vaccine that is approved, and even distributed before the election, would you get it well, i think thats going to be an issue for all of us. I will say that i would not trust President Trump. And it would have to be a credible source of information a credible source of information thats perfectly reasonable in my mind. Last night, the democrat running for senate was asked about taking a vaccine if there were a vaccine by november 3rd or the end of the year, would you take the vaccine and would you encourage your family members to take the vaccine . Ive got questions, and i think we have seen entirely too many times, and especially in recent years, politics intervening in what should be driven by health and science so do i read you to say you would be hesitant to receive the vaccine if it were approved by the end of the year . Im going to yes, i would be hesitant, but im going to ask a lot of questions i think thats incumbent on all of us right now, in this environment, with the way we have seen politics intervening in washington. Here to discuss what the president is doing to the credibility of Coronavirus Vaccine is jeffrey sax, chairman of the covid19 commission, which created an outline to the Global Response to the pandemic, including the production and distribution of vaccines jeffrey, i know you have had experience in this youve had experience arguing with antivaxers and the developmental in Development Context of vaccine deployment. The first question is, you know, i dont think kyle cunninghams answer is worded precisely as i would, but it strikes me as important for folks to make a distinction between what President Trump says about vaccines and who they do trust and how they would ascertain the trustworthines trustworthiness. I think we have to start with a very different point, which is we reached 200,000 deaths of americans as of today, and the rate of deaths per population in our country is 100 times higher than it is in many other countries in the world so we have had an antiscience, ignorant, reckless process in this country that you could say led by President Trump, but it leads to chaos, confusion, and death. So nobody can trust anything right now as you said, because he has been unwilling and uninterested in telling the truth and in following the basics of Public Health from the beginning. And its 200,000 deaths as of today. Unbelievable four times essentially the deaths of all of the vietnam war. So now we have blatant politicizing of what would be the most Rapid Development of a vaccine in history, weve got to root for that success. But of course, anything President Trump touches is a lie. And this is he makes things rotten and this is all that one has to know and say if tony fauci comes on your show, chris, and says look, the science is clear, let me show you the evidence, were going oh believe that yeah. If President Trump, on november 1, says weve got a vaccine, im the greatest and the day before the election starts this kind of nonsense, we know what this is about. And President Trump himself, he tells us how he lies he lies about everything and he explains how he lies about everything he lies about climate change, he lies about covid hell lie about the vaccine. Cant people figure this part out . This man conveys no information except reckless selfinterest. And heres where this is the scenario that strikes me, and it is dangerous that we have this kind of you know, once you drop a little bit of ink into that water, the doubt into peoples perception of it, like its hard to get out, right . And i get why politicians can be careful with what they say if we have credible sources vouching for this, and yes, ill personally i will go get the vaccine. Whenever is that is approved but the scenario that seems likely is a middle scenario, which is in advance of rock solid, where we are on the vaccine, he makes some announcement before the election, or even if theres good phase three trial results, and then the actual deployment is not some yada, yada, yada thing. As you know, and as i think you have been working on and written about, the deployment and logistics of getting people vaccinated is as much of a challenge as the actual development. People should understand also, were going to need normal public help that we have not had to this moment in this country, were going need testing, tracing, facemask wearing, care for months, maybe years to come. Even if a successful vaccine comes. If a successful vaccine comes, its going to take time to implement, to roll out, to get acceptance, to get understanding. We dont even know the efficacy of it, how long would it give protection, to whom would it give protection, for all people, younger people, older people these are big unknowns so were going to have to take care and were not even taking care now. We dont have a vaccine, but we cant even save lives now because of the recklessness, chris. So whatever President Trump says, keep in mind this is a man that has led this country into the most profound danger, willfully, deliberately, with complete contempt for truth on this issue, on climate where he said yesterday exactly the same kind of thing that he said about the virus, its going to get cooler dont worry about it i dont know what the Scientists Say. And if woodward were writing a book right now, no doubt there would be a tape with President Trump laughing about how hes making fun of that urgency, as well this is a game for him but its a sickness, and its an absolute vulgarity and huge danger for our country jeffrey sacks, always great to hear from you thank you for taking time tonight. Thank you for what youre doing. Next, a new whistle bloblowr complaint about an i. C. E. Facility the nurse who came forward joins me next. Hey, can i. Hold on one second. Sure. Okay. Okay safe drivers save 40 guys guys check it out. Safe drivers save 40 safe drivers save 40 safe drivers save 40 thats safe drivers save 40 . It is, thats safe drivers save 40 . Hes right there. Its him hes here. Hes right here. Hi hi. Hey thats totally him. Its him thats totally the guy. Safe drivers do save 40 . 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Along with those unauthorized hysterectomies, it alleges that the facility lacked protection from the coronavirus, and detainees suffer from a general lack of medical care we have been chase thing story all day long, and tonight we can report a lawyer named Benjamin Osorio told nbc news that indeed, two of his clients received hysterectomies they believe may have been unnecessary. And tonight, we here on all in spoke with another attorney that represents two different women who claim they also had unnecessary hysterectomies while detained at this facility. That lawyer says as many as 15 imMigrant Women were given full or partial hysterectomies or other procedures for which no medical indication existed now, we reached out to i. C. E. For these accusations and they disputed these allegations and the implication that detainees are used for experimental medical procedures. I. C. E. Says since 2018, only two individuals in the facility were referred to certified credential medical professionals for hysterectomies of course, the referred is the question here. I should tell you nbc has reached out to the private company that runs this facility. While they are not comments on the specific allegations, they say they have a zero tolerance policy for inappropriate behavior at their facilities and refute any allegations of misconduct the niurse behind that whistleblower complaint is dawn wooten and her lawyer john witty join me now. Ms. Wooten, i want to start with you and tell us what you did, what was your job at that facility, when did you start work thing i was first employed atorwin county Detention Center in 2010. Ive been to this facility on three different occasions. I returned in 2014, worked until 2016 came back in 2019. I was a nurse there, medication nurse. I worked 6 00 a. M. To 6 00 p. M inmate care was my responsibilities there you talk about in the complaint a hearing from women detained there, talking about a specific doctor performing hysterectomies,referring to hi as a uterus collector. Tell us about how you heard about this doctor and what women said about their experiences with him you have detained women, i had several detained women on numerous occasions that would come to me and say, ms. Wooten, i had a hysterectomy, why . I had no answers as to why they had those procedurprocedures one lady walked up to me here this last time around between october of 19 until july 2 and she said, what is he, is he the uterus collector, does he collect uteruses i asked her what does she mean and she says, everybody that i talked to has had a hysterectomy and you just dont know what to say. I mean, i dont have an answer for why that they would come to me and they would say, is it a uterus collector would you describe how would you describe the standard of care, the general sort of medical environment in which these migrants were detained the standard of care was it wasnt timely all the time. They would have a procedure to where they would fill out forms to be seen those forms would be shredded. They would be told in instances that, you know, theres nothing going on with them just on numerous occasions as a human, you just dont treat people inhumane. I have a title as a licensed practical nurse, and i protect my title with dignity, to where i was raised by you treat people as you want to be treated. The sanitation, especially during covid, the sanitation was horrible we didnt have anything to sanitize with. We didnt have the proper ppe. So they didnt have anything to sanitize with while they were out in the dorns, as well. And when you ask, you would be reprimanded. Did you have cases of covid in that facility what were the steps taken to deal with it as the outbreak in the country happened well, we first had the first case of covid, thit was covid s not here in the facility. When we had another case and it was like covid was not here in the facility then we had several cases, and it was covid is not here in the facility there was not a proper separation of detainees when they would come in theres a 14day incubation period no, they werent separated whenever you question, and then you dont have the proper ppe, i admit i refused. I have sickle cell i have kids that are asthmatics. So the protocol was not being followed and was not properly reported to the health depth or the cdc or la salle. You were essentially demoted is my understanding from the complaint, from a fulltime employee to sort of a more kind of atwill swing employee. Your contention is that that was essentially punishment for your statements about the up safe environment you felt there, your resistance to working when you had symptoms is my understanding correct there . Yes, thats correct mr. Witter, you look like you want to say something. What do you want to say . I did want to jump in and say that ms. Wooten has been a vocal, you know, critic of the conditions within the facility for, you know, for many months and the the most recent retaliation of demoting her was, you know, to some extent, was just a buildup of all of her internal whistle blowing over the course of months and especially since the beginning of covid i wonder since youre the attorney attached to this, and i know theres a number of groups that have worked together on this complaint we have now spoken to one lawyer on the record, another lawyer anonymously. About women the actual women coming forward with these complaints do you expect we will see more public declarations of these allegations of women who actually experienced it . Well, its a very challenging situation to come forward with information like that, and theres a lot of risks to weigh out. Whether more will be able to summon the courage to talk about it, certainly through their attorney is an excellent process is todisclosures with the number of cases that ms. Wooten and others allude to, theres a Large Population of these women immigrants who have been mistreated in this way, assaulted, and there is a pool there that could come forward. Lets hope they would. Ms. Wooten, what would you like to see happen in this facility what do you think a just set of changes would look like . A just set of changes would be a change on management. If you change management, then theres a possibility that there will be corrective measures. But if not changing management, then im afraid that it will be hard to correct those measures dawn wooten, who is the whistleblower in this complaint against this facility, i. C. E. Facility run by a private corporation in georgia john witty, her attorney tremendous bravery coming forward, ms. Wooten. Thank you for sharing your story tonight. I really appreciate it youre welcome. Thank you, chris. Up next, updates on the case of Breonna Taylor. The latest after this. Try boost® high protein. With 20 grams of protein for Muscle Health versus only 16 grams in ensure® high protein. And now enjoy boost® high protein in new cafe mocha flavor. When you think of a bank, you think of people in a place. But when you have the chase mobile app, your bank can be virtually any place. So, when you get a check. You can deposit it from here. And you can see your transactions and check your balance from here. You can save for an emergency from here. Or pay bills from here. 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Justice for Breonna Taylor has become a rallying cry for organizers and activists in louisville and across the nation protesters have taken to the streets to implore people to call for the cops who killed Breonna Taylor to be arrested. Those Police Officers have not been arrested. Only one of them, the officer who blindly shot ten rounds into taylors apartment, has even been fired but there were some welcome news for the supporters the mayor of louisville announced a 12 million settlement with taylors family with several Police Reforms, including changes to how search warrants are approved and executed in the city the city already passed a ban on noknock warrants known as Breonna Taylors law in june today, the family hailed the settlement and police rormeforms and renewed their calls for the tops who killed her to be arrested today what we did here was to do what we could do to bring a little bit of Police Reform and its just a start. 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One of the remarkable aspects of this president ial race which i keep coming back to is how little Donald TrumpsApproval Rating has moved despite his utter failure to deal with what is arguably the worst things that happened in the country in a century and a big part of the reason for that is this powerful and growing ecosystem in disinformation that a huge percent of voters are consuming, whether via talk radio or facebook or youtube or online Message Boards or misleading documentaries or whatsapp messages on their phones or even their local republican candidate for congress in that world Donald Trumps a heroic truthteller. Hes fulfilled all his promises and Public Health officials are in a grand conspiracy against freedomloving americans all of that results in local news packages like this one out of utah. A passionate call for action in st. George. Many locals called concerns about coronavirus spikes overblown. Others calling the virus a hoax or saying that asymptomatic carries do not exist and cannot be forced to wear masks anywhere as citizens of the united states. If we want to wear masks, thats fine. We can take care of ourselves. Some rally attendees say they should wear masks if they have Health Problems or simply feel they cant breathe. George floyd said i cant breathe and he died. Were wearing a mask and saying i cant breathe, but being forced to wear it any way. They believe in all cases masks jeopardize kids health. Parents demanding they have the right to do with their children. Most child molesters love them to set the record straight here, coronavirus is not a hoax. Asymptomatic carriers do exist maskwearing has nothing to do with the murder of george floyd. Masks do not broadly jeopardize kids health for the last lady, which is crucial, the one that talked about maskwearing child molesters she was echoing about the qanon Conspiracy Theory youve heard they believe trump is working silently, hes not branding about it, working behind the scenes to expose satanworshipping child molesters who harvest the blood of children and whose reckoning will arrive any day now. The unnerving truth is that if you scratch the surface, a shockingly wide spectrum of americans are getting information thats not just biased or tilted but totally insane and a fabricated. In a new piece for Time Magazine in her interviews with people who believe, for example, an even kabul operates tunnels under the u. S. In order to rape and torture children and drink their blood. Almost all voters were cryptic go online, one said. Dig deeper, added another. Impervious to messaging. They arent just infected with conspiracy, they appear to be inoculated against reality im joined now by charlotte altar, the National Correspondent at time. Good to have you on. The piece was unnerving, but it tracked with a lot of things ive read and experienced in talking to people. Just talk about what people talked about in your experience in talking to voters and the sort of universe of this disinformation they conjure. So i think what was particularly unnerving about this was that i wasnt going up to people and asking them if they believe in q. Im on a road trip across the country half the country. Reporting on the election. So i was just trying to hear, you know, what people were thinking in terms of their vote. And a remarkable proportion of these people that i interviewed in wisconsin, roughly 1 in 5, brought up q or other qanonrelated conspiracy theories or covid hoaxer conspiracy theories over the course of our conversations. And when i asked them where theyre finding this stuff, they say this phrase that i think has become sort of the token of the conspiratorial thinking crowd which is do your research. Thats become a little bit of a red flag phrase for me when i hear somebody saying do your research, usually theyre about to spout a Conspiracy Theory of some kind. Whats so striking about this, look, disinformation, smears are an old part of politics from the founding you look at 2004, john kerry, right . I think about swift boats. Okay the thing about that, it was attached to reality. John kerry did serve in vietnam. He was on a swift boat you know, and the idea was that he acted poorly there. It wasnt that, like, john kerry is secretly an alien who is going to come, you know, devour children like, the full alternativeness of the cosmology just doesnt even seem like a thing i dont even know how you penetrate it. Right well, that is what was so alarming about this reporting, is that like i said in the piece, these people appear to be totally inoculated against reality. There is no fact that you can present to them that will change their mind and one of the things that i learned in reporting about the psychology about conspiracy theories is that actually presenting accurate facts to try to disprove the Conspiracy Theory often has the opposite effect. Right. Of actually reinforcing the idea that there is some kind of conspiracy that wants you to believe a certain thing. So thats whats really tricky about this, is that presenting Accurate Information doesnt actually convince them at all. Right i mean, thats right, and thats sort of universally true in lots of circumstances in this case im curious how the the people you talk to how they found their way into it one of the things that our colleagues ben collins and brandon have been writing about is sort of the extension of qanonout past where it had been. Theres lots of sort of influencers on instagram who have gotten into it. Did you get a sense of, like, peoples routes into this . So when i asked them about that, they were very vague i didnt talk to people who said, oh, i followed this influencer or that influencer. Certainly everybody was getting their information on the internet mostly on facebook, but it seems like some people had actually moved off facebook and on to a russianowned search engine. But, you know, definitely algorithms are the main reason why these conspiracy theories are having, you know, so much of a bigger impact now than they did in the 20th century before the internet there were people in the 20th century who believed conspiracy theories, like that the Jfk Assassination was an inside job. Right. Or the moon landing was a hoax but those didnt really penetrate the mainstream because they werent being fed these conspiracy theories online. The other so the more sort of banal version of this, which i also think is interesting. There is the kind of qanon complete undeathed from reality and kind of a cistic, mystical way of interpreting the actually events in the world and the other disinformation which this comes from an economist story which i thought was interesting talking to folks in ohio this is he shoots his mouth off. At least it shows hes honest, jason, a pipefitter, liked mr. Trumps commitment to reducing the national debt. Hes done more than our past ten president s together. Hes made china or japan pay ourer farmers tens of billions of dollars he got health care done which democrats could never do he built the wall. The last two sentences its one thing if youre running on, like, my opponent you have sort of traditional exaggeration, like my opponent wants government takeover of health care and i stand against that its another when you say, like, i got Health Care Reform done. Right so this what is particularly alarming about this is that this isnt just about the crazy stuff these people believe its also about what they dont believe. They do not believe the things that are reported in the news. And, in fact, over the course of now almost 150 conversations in wisconsin and now in michigan, you know, sometimes when i talk to people who are voting for trump, i bring up some things that have been reported in the news recently, like, for example, the losers and suckers comment that was reported in the atlantic or the bob woodward tape of the president downplaying the coronavirus, and people simply do not believe that it is true. And that is the way that they explain away their support for trump. When when i bring up, you know, more kind of consequential policy policy achievements or nonachievements, they simply do not believe what im saying. And thats, i think, one of the ways that this mindset expands beyond the belief in the cabal into a broader unreality that is infecting the electorate. Yeah, the thing thats so fascinating is we all form our knowledge about the world based on trust relationships people watching this show presumably think im not lying to them. Like, for instance, i think you actually interviewed the people you interviewed. Like, i trust that i trust thats what happened if you end up trusting the wrong people, its amazing how bad your beliefs can end up, how untethered they are. Charlotte alter who did a great piece is doing great work. Thank you for your time tonight. Thanks for having me, chris. That is all in for this thursday evening the Rachel Maddow show starts right now. Thanks to you at home for joining us at this hour. It was not the First Trump Administration scandal it was certainly, certainly, certainly not the last, but in terms of permanent damage done to humans, in terms of the severity of the damage deliberately done to humans, the trump administration, no matter what else they do, they will never, ever get out from the shadow of the fact that they really did as a policy and a deliberate practice, they really did take little kids away from their moms and dads. It will never not be true that we all