Transcripts For WETA Charlie Rose 20130119

Best ride the crux, sp of acceptability. Journalism is a rough business. To get to the truth what i lot of people in public bodies are lying and obif you skating, sometimes journalists have to play dirty, too, and to pretend otherwise i think is ridiculous. The mirror in my time i believe operated legally but operated right on that line. We drove very, very hard to expose wrongdoing where we saw tto investigate wars, to investigate political lying and so on. Now, now the line is let. Legality. There is law. There is british law. There is american law. Its there, and it wasnt enforced in britain. Rose piers morgan for the hour next. Captioning sponsored by Rose Communications from our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose. Rose piers morgan is here. He is the host of piers morgan tonight. It is the twoyear anniversary of the shows launch. He has interviewed, a colorfulivate of the guests. They range from paris hilton to the calledy lma. Earlier in his career he headline the sun and daily mirror. He is bringing his appetite for controversy to america. I am pleased to have him on this program. Welcome. epoood to see you. Good to see you, charlie. Rose i want to just go to gun control because you waded into this battle. Was there a particular thing that set you off, other than the tragedy of 20 innocent children . Yeah. It was actually it was earlier than that. When i began at cnn in january 2010, it was a week after Gabby Giffords had been shot. And i was completely shocked, not just by what happened to her and the six people who got killed but the fact that after a week of mourning and general chatter about a debate about gun control, nothing happened. So a congresswoman could be nearly murdered, at pointblank range by a deranged man way bunch of firearms and no action was taken to tray to prevent this happening again. And from then on, there was a pattern of these massacres and mass shootings. They came with alarming reg layerity in america and nothing ever got done. I really exploded after the Aurora Movie Theater shooting. Because there you had a young man who had acquired four firearms perfectly legally, including one of these ar15 assault rifles. Me then got 6,000 rounds of amnition anonymously on the internet, and he had dressed up as the joker and gone to a Movie Theater and gunned down a Record Number of americans in one single shooting, 70 people, and killed 12. And it was an event of such ferocity and horror, i thought this will surely now drive change. And nothing happened. And so when sandy hook happened, to me was it had to be a Tipping Point. You couldnt now have, after aurora, a few months before, 20 Young Children blown to pieces with three to 11 bullets each from the same weapon that had been used in aurora and not do something as a civilized humain society. And what brought it really to vogue for me, sandy hook, was it was almost identical to what happened in a school in scott rant in the mid90s where a deranged man had taken guns spy school and killed 16 children. I never covered a more awful story in terms of the gutwretching images of these poor parents sprinting to the school. Im a father of four kids. Like all parents, i drop my kids off at school and you hand them over and you expect to get them back. And it was just awful. And it was exactly the same, watching sandy hook pim turned on cnn and there were these parents racing to the school, the same terror in their faces. And i thought, this this doesnt look right. They were saying one person had been killed. Parents dont react like that if they think thats whats happening and slowly will it came out throughoutidate and it got worse and worse and worse. And i thought this is the end. You captain allow this to continue in america. You have to do something. In britain, we brought in draconian gun laws. We banned all hand guns. Never mind assault weapones, they went as well. Rose did you confiscate hand guns in britain. As in australia in the mid90, almost at the same time in both countries, a ban on all assault weapones, almost all handgunes, and there was a Buyback Program where you could hand them in and the government could compensate you for it and after an extended period of time it was illegal to own these. The problem with america you couldnt do that. There are 300 million guns in circulation. And i dont think any american under the right to bear arms amendment in the constitution, any conif you confiscation. In california they got 2,000 handed in, in one day. It was a start. People were handing in rocket launchers, charlie, in los angeles. You know, i look at britain. I look at australia. I looked at the reaction that happened to those massacres there, and it was very different to here. It wasnt awe political issue. It wasnt 11 and right. The australian Prime Minister, john howard, wrote in the new york times, fascinating piece about rose what he did. He was considered pretty far right conservative, but he brought in really draconian gun control, and as he pointed out,ain massacres per the port arthur massacre which was a Tipping Point in the previous 10 or 12 years, i think it was. And since 1996 not a single one. And in britain a very similar story. Rose does britain, does australia have the power of an nra lobby like we do here . No, absolutely not. Rose is that the critical difference. Critical difference, but also the gun culture here is completely different. You know, i grew up in a small village in the south of england where nobody had a gun, other than a farmer who would use it for hunting or shooting or people going to a target range. They were just unheard of for people to actually is ray gun at home for selfprotection. Americans have always believed since gaining independence that you need to have a firearm at home to protect yourself and your family, and the vast majority of americans do that. I have no problem with that. I understand and respect that. I believe thats what the Founding Fathers fully intend by the second amendment. What i find unfathomable is the reality of what is going on now with these derranged young men it always seems to be a pattern of deranged young men who may have been tipped over by video games, hollywood movies who knows what the final edge point is. Rose in some cases it might be biological. Right. I cant go to walmart and buy sick packets of sued fred. I kaund buy six or seven varietyes of french cheese because of the bacterial threat rose but you can buy a gun at a gun show. I can buy an ar15 at walmart. I can go down and buy this killing machine. The gun lobby will say theyre just another rifle. Get on youtube. Look at what people are doing there and showing how an ar15 performs when it has a magazine with 100 bullets as james holmes, the shooter in aroara used. These are machine guns. And they are designed with one specific purpose mass legislature. You cant use them for hunting. You cant use them really for shooting in terms of a sport because theyre just killing machines. They just fire off. And if you use the new bullet designs, which you can get, which a friend of mine is a surgeon in los angeles. Hes a bone surge. He repairs the damage from all the gangland shootups in the south of los angeles. And he sent me some pictures last night which showed the damage that some of these new bullets can do from an ar15 in particular. The philosophy they go into the body and the way they explode when theyre inside you is absolutely terrifying. And it brings me to my repeated question to all these gun rights guests that i have ive got a problem with you i dont have a problem with you owning a pistol. Why does anybody need one of these . Rose what do they say . They dont have an answer. The only answer ive had is theyre fun. One gun right lobbyist said to me, they are the ferrari of guns. Rose therefore, one answer to that proposed by some people is okay have these gun clubs. You go to the gun club to shoot. You go to your locker. And you get your gun. And then when you leave the gun club you put your gun back. Would you be in favor of that . Id certainly be more in favor of that rose would you be willing to in a better world to allow that . If you were getting to a place of compromise, that would certainly be a sensible place to start. Thats what happens in britain. You can still and go use them for sport but they are kept in a secure rose for target practice. You have to have a license and renew my brother is a british army colonel. Hes fought in expafg iraq, alongside american troops. Hes used all these firearms but he said when people come out of the army, if they try and get one of these weapons for civilian use, the amount of checks that go on in britain would stagger you. It goes on for months. You have to go you have to provide references. People have to vouch per for you pup have medical checks. You have psychological checks. Its a completely different ball game. And the result is this in britain, since 1996, we have averaged between 30 and 60 gun murderaise year. Its very consistent. In 2011, a record low i think of 39. In america, 11,000 to 12,000 a year in the same period. Add to, that 18,000 americans who kill themselves with guns. Rose is this different than any controversy you have been involved in or any cause youve been involved in so that somebody wouldnt say, this is just perfect for piers because he wants to be in the middle of where the conversation is and he is dramatically taken sides here, and it puts him in focus. The only thing ive been involved with like this was the iraq war, where at the daily mirror we took a position against the iraq war, and it was significant because the mirror was seen to be the labor supporting newspaper and i was friends with tony blair and we clashed over that. We tried to persuade the government not to go to war in iraq. The irony for me was my own brother was fighting on the front line in iraq at the time and it was a very intense period and in the end it led to my departure from the paper because we were given some photographs of british troops apparently abusing iraqis, which may or may not have been fake. We never really found out about them, but i left. Rose there was more to that than that, though, wasnt it . The question was whether, you know, if those photos were fake . Heres the reality, i certainly didnt know they were fake. The idea i would have published any pictures knowing they were fake is ridiculous and offensive and ive always made that clear to people. The reality is we had two soldiers come to us. They album full of photographs of them with soldiers in the period they were talk ug about. And then they had these other pictures of troops with their faces cut off the pictures, apparently urinating and abusing iraqi civilians. Now, i was fired over this because the ministry of defense, who wed given these pictures to before publication and who raised no question of authentickivity we investigated this for three months. We only published it because it came after abu ghraib. Rose why did they fire you . Because i refused to apologize. And we went to war on the pretext of weapons of mass destruction that didnt exist. Lets see the veracity of these pictures. Heres whats happened since. About a year ago, members of the queens lancarbir regimen that we had accused came to court. Some were courtmartials. A Commanding Officer said his men behaved like a pack of wild animals during that period purpose they were brought to book eventually. Nobody questioned the veracity of the story we publish with the pictures. What is the truth about those pictures . I still dont know. What i do know is no one has ever been prosecuted for faking them. No one has been brought to work for faking them. We have the word of the regimen, which has been discredited, and the government, which we know, told a pack of lives. Rose interesting way you were fired. Didnt you get a call saying come to the office. We will have security walk you out. You will not go back to your office. I had been there 11 years. Rose what was the paper . The daily mirror. When americans say tabloid they think national enquirer. I was there a long time. We can a lot of work. Rose how many years were you editor . 11 years editor in chief. Rose were you at the news of the world . I was briefly in the mid90s for about a year. Rose and the sun . I worked on the sun in the late rose but you were not the editor . No, i was just a reporter there. Rose so why you know, when people talk to me about you, especially those people in reflecte reflected in vanity fair as you know. Yes. Rose there is this story, there is this belief that you were central to hacking at some point, not the most recent it episodes, were you . What did you do . No, its complete nonsense. Rose what was it everybody believes you did and why do they believe it . As one of them told vanity fair my old journalist friends back in britain like to get together every two and three months and try to come up with a story to get you fired. So the agenda is pretty obvious. Rose why do they have an agenda against piers morgan . I was a pretty provocative editor. I was competitive. Rose this is to get even even though youre working in new york nothing irks them more than the fact i rose from the ashes of being unser monessly dumped in the street from the kal mirror. It is a very serious journalistic job. Rose tell me people said, he has never really talked about this sufficiently about what he knew and what he did, acknowledged what he did. Let me make it clear again because i have repeatedly said the same thing. I never hacked a phone. I never told anybody to hack a phone. I never published any story knowing it to come from the hacking of a phone. I dont know how more unequivocal i can be. Rose never hacked a phone. Never hacked a phone. Rose never seen information from a hacked phone that you knowingly knew was illegally obtained. Right, never told anybody to hack a phone. Never publish any story believing it was from a hacked phone, period. Enemies of mine can try to drag me into this as they have done all they like and i say to them, produce the evidence. Stop the chat, produce the evidence rose no one steps forward to say piers morgan was engaged in hacking. Oh, no, some people have without any evidence. Well, i can do that. Rose bought butt youre saying here and everywhere else, i never did it. Had nothing to do with it. Nothing to do with hacking whatsoever, whatsoever. Rose what did jeremy whats his name testify to about you and hacking . Hes a big interrogator. He said he came to a lunch, which he did at the mirror. I used to hold monthly lunches. A group of fun people, politicians, political journalistes, celebrities and so on. And he said i told him how to hack a phone. Actually what i did was i wander him about the practice of hacking. As i recorded in my own book, i had been wander myself. I was being investigate over something by the government, stock tipping thing. And in the course of it, i couldnt understand why so many stories about me were leaking out from the investigation, and somebody said to me, they might be hacking your phone. I said, whats that . They said, if you dont change your fourdigit security number, then in the old days, you could call a mobile phone, cell phone, and hear peoples messages. I said, really . After that i i began telling other people as i recorded in my book sphwhru told jeremy i told museum russell people and yet he managed to phrase it in such a suspicious way quite deliberately. Morgan told me how to hack a phone. And thats how it became a story in the paper the next day. And i thought this is utterly ridiculous. Ive given the guy a warning. If i was involved in hacking celebrity phones because i wanted to pub the stories, why would i be warning them all . Rose so when you were doing this, how widespread was it, even if you didnt do it . This was all before what happened to it news of the world. By what, 10 years . Look, i left fleet street in 2004. Rose okay, less than 10 years. Right. I havent been there for nearly a decade. As i said to the levinson inquiry rose why do they want to talk to you . Because enough people had come out and tried to smear me. And i wanted to talk to them. And i tried as best i could to go over it all and to say what i could remember, which, by the way, was very little. I said, look, in my book, i know in january, whenever it was, 2001, i was wander about the practice of hacking. I heard, like a lot of people, rumors about it. You know, that people would say the reason that paper got that story was from hacking. I never saw hard evidence of that. I never had any concrete evidence of that. But i heard rumors. And then in twowp 6, two years after i left fleet street, one of the news of the world journalists was arrested, charged, and jailed for phone hacking. Dismafts first time id seen it real, concrete, okay, so this is rose and reached out to a whole range of people, rebecca books being one. Did he work for you . Yeah, rebecca worked for me. Rose you knew her well. Were you surprised by this . Lets wait and see what happens with the court cases. Q. You think on appeal they wil . There will be court cases and well swe what happens. Rebecca is one of the best journalists i are worked with my life of my life and also a close friend of mine. Rose and a very close friend to rupert. Very close friend to rupert, and i dont recognize the caricature of her being put out there by people. Rose how about the editor of the paper and went to work worry david. Andy, he was a very good editor and a very good righthand man to David Cameron and did a great job for him. I think he misses him now. Again for andy, i i dont recognize the caricature. Rose what do you believe happened . I think there was a political witchhunt going on, a get murdoch campaign, and he inspired anger and resentment from the left in britain and i think certain newspapers decided were going to go for him. And they got lucky and exposed what was a completely unacceptable practice going on amongst i think rose you dont doubt it was going on. You doubt who might be involved. From the scale of what came out you have to assume it was going on in a widespread scale amongst, i believe, a small number of people. And i think thats what will emerge in the end. 101 journalists or 101 people, including journalists, have now been arrested for payments to officials and so on. Rose youre saying rebecca brooks will never go to jail . No, im not saying that. Im saying let justice run its course. Lets see. I dont recognize the caricature of her in the way that has been portrayed. Rebecca is a good friend of mine. Shes a great person. Shes a brilliant journalist. She rose right to the top rose she was running everything over there. And she is a very smart person. Rose so shes a scapegoat . Shes what . A victim . Lets wait and see what she is. I hope she turns out to be a completely innocent woman and gets back to what she was good at. Rose what has it changed in london, in Great Britain about the relationship between murdoch and the government . Part of it they say is a rot of people were intimidated. Which im sure is true. Rose and theyre less intimidated now. I think it was a mutually beneficial relationship between the murdoch empire and all its guises and the government of the day. Its not an unusual thing, media owners to have relationships with the government at the time. And for Mutual Benefit where appropriate. And i think it probably was a case of that, and then what happened is you had a kind reservoir dogs. You had the politicians exposed for expenses and fiddling their lunch bills and building moats at public expense and so on. They felt enraged by that. Some of them went to jail. They then gleefully targeted the journalists. In the middle of it you have the police targeted by everybody. Rose they were brought into it right. And they may target everybody else in revenge as well. You have a reservoir dog situation. Rose everybody turning on everybody . I think its bun unhelpful to British Society. I think its made it fearful. I think when you have the police, politicians and media all trying to kill each other, its not healthy and it reduces respect and trust in all of them. Its been brutal. Its been bloody. I think many peoples lives have been ruined and actually they should just call they should start again and say, okay, we all need to work with each other. The media needs to work with politicians at arms length. The politicians need to work with the police, the police with the media. It happens in every other country. You have to be able to work together. At the moment theres a complete standoff between all these three pillars of British Society which i dont think is helpful. Rose is the relationship between the press and government, especially the Prime Minister and members of the cabinet, different for example, rebecca brook was a great friend of David Cameron. They would weekend together. Her husband went to school with david. Rose is it different than it is here . You know better than me. You know its not unheard of for media figures in america to wine and dine, perhaps even go for a country weekend with politicians. It happens rose or go to state dinners. It happens all the time. How harmful is it . It depends on the nature of the relationship. If the media person is paying a politician to suppress information or lobby for something, clearly, thats corruption. If all theyre doing is the politician has a message and the media person either believes it or doesnt and they want to discuss the ramifications of how this can be dealt with, i see no problem. Rose some people say the proof is in the pudding. Does it influence coverage . Right. Rose if you go for a weekend way politician and have dinner with him and all those kinds of things, does it influence the coverage positively or negatively . If it has an influence that you dont write what you know, thats a negative influence. If it gives you insight into the thinking so you can take the story and to more with it. Then its positive. Rose its positive. Thats exactly right. And i think when that stoops you have in where the now complete fear. No politicians talking to any journalists. When i was editing papers we worked with police all the time on solving crimes, working together, the media and the police solving crimes together. It was a very big public service. I think many british newspapers too part in that. And it was very advantageous to Police Investigations and to the Public Interest. Thats not happening any more. There is a complete wall now. And the war goes on. Its got brutal. A lot of good people, i think, are being dragged down with it as well as bad. The payments to officials. You know rose but that all came about under the same investigation. It did. Heres the thing, charlie what is the difference, really, between a guardian journalist wining and dining the Police Detective, and the bill is 200 or another journalist from another paper giving that policeman 200 . One is illegal and one isnt. But in terms of the purpose of what you are doing, its a pretty fine line. Its a pretty fine line. It depends, again, on is it corrupting is the purpose of the payment to corrupt somebody . And if it is, thats corruption. If the purpose is actually if im buying a dinner for a Police Detective as an editor of a newspaper because i want to understand about the crime in east london, billion, that to me, seems perfectly acceptable. Rose it does to me, too, in a sense the central issue, also is transparency. Is ittransparent . Nobody is hiding anything. I am a bit surprised to listen to you not about what you may or may not have done and the animous that may be there out of jealousy or whatever reason to you, but you seem to be saying i dont want to put words in your mouth this is not as bad as people think it is. No, no. I think youve got to be youve got to be reflective about what has come out. What i rose there was a child in the family and the anguish and cell phone and all of that well, the original story was somebody at the news of the world and it may or may not have been a staff journalist. It may have been a private detective at their behest had hacked into the pope of a missing girl and deleted some of her messages so others could be left and they could hear mens. It turned out much laters after they were shut down, that that had never happened, that the phone automatically deleted messages because it filled up. The journalist or the detective had never done that, which dramatically changed the impact of that story. Because actually the familys great distress was possibly she was alive because they could hear the messages had done. So it changed the nature of the story. Does it make the original hacking acceptable . No. I dont think phone hacking is acceptable. Its illegal. And there are very few justifications for it. However, i defy any american journalist if they had been told, look, we have osama bin ladens cell phone number. And we can let me finish. Rose thats an easy case. Well, its an easy case but its a principle at stake. Is it always completely unacceptable . In that circumstance, would a responsible journalist not take the course of action open to him to potentially listen to osama bin ladens messages . Im not sure most journalists in america would turn down rose the different case is, so, you know, you are just listening to gossip on some entertains cell phone not acceptable. Rose not acceptable. Unacceptable. Rose and they sued for it and won. Some of them have, yes. Whats acceptable . I think all journalists ride the cusp of acceptable. Journalism is a rough business. To get to the truth when a the love people in public bodies and political figures and soy on are lying and obfuscating, sometimes journalists have to play dirty, too, and to pretend otherwise i think is ridiculous. The mirror in my time operated legally but right on that line. We drove very, very hard to expose wrongdoing where we saw it, to investigate wars, to investigate political lying and so on. Now, the line is legality. You know, there is law, theres british law, theres american law. And its there, and it wasnt enforced in britain with the hack ago. Rose all is fair in love and war, as long as its legal. Legal and responsible. There should be a purpose to it. Rose what drives people beyond the legality is competition because you were worried that youre using leadership to the other tabloid because they have more stuff. Lets not pretend its just a tabloid thing. Rose im not. Let me give you an example. The Daily Telegraph is a respected broad sheet in britain and it broke the law when it paid for the information that led to the exposure of mp expenses. It was stolen, so they broke the law. I endorse that lawbreaking. It was right to do that. Elements of wikileaks were clearly illegal. Journalists that repeat them are also breaking the law. Theyre accessories. Rose fair enough. When is the test when its okay to break the law . You have to have good lawyers who tell you where the line is drawn, and then you have the Public Interest. Rose i thought you were saying its okay to break the law. No, no. Rose if the story is about exposing corruption, rather than i think occasionally it can be for i reasons i just stated. The mp expenses, that was in the Public Interest. Rose so, therefore, its okay if its in the Public Interest. I think if there is an overt Public Interest, yes. I think it can be defended. Rose but thats the problem. But thats the problem. The courts have upheld this. Rose the problem is defining whats in the Public Interest. That is the key problem. That is the key issue. Becausement Public Interest defined by a tabloid newspaper would differ substantially from the broadsheet newspaper. The news agendas are different. Is it fair the only stories in the Public Interest and, therefore, lawbreaking is permissible, should be the news agenda of a socalled serious newspaper . I dont know. Its open for debate. But that is to me where the gray air is, and that is to me where the argument has to be properly had and the rules of engagement established. Rose let me get frulondon to new york. Youre in the midst of all of that, and you get fired. Yes. Rose you, obviously, had to make a decision. Ive got to get another place. I gotta do something. Where do i go from here . How do i come back . So what did you do . I had done a bit of television in britain. Rose and successfully. There were certain programs you had they read about. Dione called tabloid tales, me interviewing famous people, who had been through the tabloid mincer. And there was me, one of the orchestraters, perhaps of their mincing and it was an Interesting Program and did pretty well. On the back of that, when i got fired from the mirror, simon cowl rung me up and said i have an idea for a talent show. It will be like American Idol rose by this time, American Idol was successful. Huge. He said, i want somebody like me, arrogant and obnoxious, and your name sprang to mind. He said, i want somebody like me, evil, arrogant, and obnoxious and your name sprang to me. Rose did you receive that with pleasure . I didnt think i was overtly evil but the others i couldnt quibble with from time to time. I had only been to america a few times in nigh life. I was interviewed by nbc. Rose entertainment executives. Yes, from nbc. To cut a long story short i was hired, and the show went to number 1 and its stayed there since. Rose then came donald trump. What did he do for jew he launched a new version of the apprentice, called the Celebrity Apprentice. They said wed like you to take part of this. I said i liked the apprentice. I said ill do it. And i ended up winning it by being fairly brutal, fairly british, i guess, in my style, rubbing people the wrong way, being pretty uncompromising. Rose were you that much different than you were on the other show . Not really. I would say there was a brand extension. Rose a brand. Do you see that as your brand, and is it you . I think its partly me. Listen, in business, whether im editing a newspaper, competing in Celebrity Apprentice judging a talent show, i think i can be to the point. Rose to the point is a little different from what of the way simon it portrayed you. It i think he would say it is show business. I can be tough, tough speaking, but underneath it i think i have a good heart. I think i always try to see the good in people as well but if people want to have a scrap or feud or punchup, im your guy, too. Rose come back to the thing in london for just a second. What is it about the people who want to see you down . Well, i think part of it is im anchoring one of the biggest shows on Cable Television in the world. Rose its that . Jealous, envy . I think its a little bit of that. Rose is it something about you . I think ive rubbed people up the wrong way. Rose because you did something to them . I think there are certain media people in britain in particular, who think they are above any form of scrutiny or criticism themselves. I used to target those very people precisely for that relationship, whether its the jeremy paxson, the editor of private eye. Rose private eye has been brutal. So why shouldnt we be brutal back . Rose its chicago rules as they say. Its chicago rules. Rose they use a wife knife, you use a gun. Theres a man andrew sullivan, who throws rose a blogger. I bang him back and i dont understand why. If you punch somebody in the nose in the School Playground the best defense is punch them back. Rose so you punch him back and he he writes another piece. I couldnt give a monkeys. laughter rose all of a sudden you have become a bigtime celebrity making big bucks. And then larry king is retiring and most people wanted that job or a lot of people did. Im not sure who wanted it or didnt. Im not even sure who the competition was. How come you got that job . I had been doing a big interview show in britain. Its the most popular in terms of viewers. Rose you still doll it . Yes, its called life stories, on public figures. Rose you go to the itv web site and see the interviews . Yes. I have about 50 now, 50 shows. Rose big Oprah Winfrey type people . Yes, elton john, Prime Minister gordon. They air for an hour and they are peoples life stories. Cnn, my manager used to be larry kings manager, and he was with William Morris at the time. And he was aware of the change coming and everyone was aware. It was being written about all over the place. And he said look, if youre looking for someone to do some interview shows for you, not larry kings slot, interview shows, then my client piers, you may only know him from the talent show or the apprentice but get some tapeses of his interviews with these people because theyre quite something. Which they are. Theyre very intense and fullon interviews. But they show a range they wouldnt have been aware of. They got me in. And they called me in for an interview. We had a halfhour slot and it became two hours and at the end of the it, according to some who were there they decidedly i was the guy. Rose who is that that . Who is they . Some are still there, ken joz. You i hadda number of the executives there. And they just john klein was still there. Rose is anything different between what you did on the aforementioned show for itv and what you do on cnn . Yeah, because i think actually what its become is a show which takes the best of what i do for itv in terms of the interviews with bick stars, whether barbar Barbra Streisand or dawley lawmaker acharlie sheen this week, theres that type big indepth interview. But at the same time, if youre at cnn, you have to do news. And i think we have proven uses with the gun issue and other things, too, the tabloid skills, if you like, of the vivid and dramatic presentation of the news which is what tabloid means can be put on a show like mine and bring issues to life. And they can be if animated and argumentative and i can be opinionated without crossing that line which you have to be careful of at cnn of being politically partisan which is what they dont want. Rose the idea is fox is more to the right. Msnbc for t more to the left. It doesnt mean the anchors have to be mute or dont have to have opinions. Im very happy to have had the support of cnn to be opinionated about things like the gun issue which i dont view as political anyway. Im happy for that because i think it makes for better television. What other issues fit that . The motion of issues in which there is no in which there is right and wrong. Ive been animated about gay marriage. I had people on, rather infamous, kirk cameron, which hit off on the internet because i found his commentary about homosexuality very offensive and wasnt afraid to say so. Issues like that. I think the issues about the paralyzing of washington. Rose the disfunction. Absolutely. To me, shocking. There are a number of things where im not afraid of frayed to express an opinion. I dont think historically cnn has done that. I think youll see are more of that. If youre going to compete in a market with Rachel Maddow and bill oriley and others firing off opinion all day long rose you think cnn will have to go more like fox and msnbc in order to be compeptative . Only in the sense of personalities, anchoring each hour, and unfrayed to express an opinion. I dont think you will see a line crossed where they become completely partisan to a party. Rose where do you put anderson in all that . Thats up to anderson. Anderson is one of our star anchors and has been for a long time. He expresses a lot of opinions when it matter. Everyone remembers him from katrina. Rose or haiti. I personal would like to see more of that displu hope your political ideology doesnt cloud your judgment. Thats what you have to watch out for. You have to be sincere. You have to believe it. You start acting. You start being theatrical. Rose you lose your mooring. You lose everything. The anchor goes, youre all the over the place. Rose larry king said and you can look at this either way im happy its that way or not happy its that way or may not be true. He said the show is a lot about him as much as the guest. He is so different from me. I am different from larry. Rose are you different in you made the show about you rather than the guest. I think it was always about larry king. It was called larry king drive. I have huge respect for larry, hes a legend. But hes been taking a few snipes at me. Rose whats going on there . Hes probably missing the show. He said that to me. He misses the show. Hes larry. He probably has good days and bad days. Hes an irascible fellow in many ways. You know him well. I have a lot of respect for him. If he want people to highlight the difference, i will say this, i am a journalist and he is not. Larry was a radio guy. I spent 25 years on fleet street, 11 years as editor in chief of a daily newspaper. That brings with it a different style of approach both to the delivery of the show and the interviewec itnique. Larry didnt believe in research. He famously it turned up and would wing it rose he said he wanted to be the same place as the audience and didnt want to know too much. By the way, i watched his though and it worked for him. But for me i like to be forensic. And im sure youre similar to that. We are very different in the style. Im half his age, almost. Im british. Hes american. Larry did give years. Ive done two. Im a journalist. Hes a radio kauai. Hes a jew from brook lip, im an irish catholic. There are a number of ways we can differentiate ourselves, but ultimately, what we both love is that we both love news and interviewing people and were curious about both. If i tried to emulate larry kung, i would be dead right now, off the air. Rose how are you at sudden violent now . The figures came out for the year, 2012. Wwere the highest views of viewed show on the network which i dont think is too bad after two years. Rose how do you compare to larry and where he was . Were pretty well where he left it. Rose you mean he was beginning to slide . The last few years of larrys tenure, as is well known, the ratings it had fallen off dramatically. And in the last three, four months we have seen a rise. When you find a voice and something that resonates with the public, and id be very gattified by the reaction weve had to what we have been doing on guns from people who just agree with me that something has to be done, but at the same time i respect those who dont agree with me. They haveave regular place on my show to engage in debate. Sometimes its fiery. Sometimes it isnt. Ultimately what weve been the last four, five months is establish a voice and platform for debate about one of the big issues in america today. Rose how would you like to have done the Lance Armstrong interview . Im not sure i could have done it because im a huge sports fan. Ill tell you why i say that. I would have been too angry with Lance Armstrong. This is a man who lied, cheated, and kaund the world for a very long time but did it in a very malicious day. David walsh of the sunday times who exposed him time and again and Lance Armstrong sued him time and again. He won 1 million off the sunday times and now hes admitted that he drugged all the time, h he was a cheat. Rose well find tout tonight what he said. I think we can pretty well take it thats what he will say. You have this great it american icon, global icon, who was a cheat. I dont know about you, you like sport, and i like sport. I remember a cricket game, i was editing the daily mirror. I like crickit. Its not the most popular sport in america, but i like it. I remember this game. It was a there was a surprising declaration by want South African captain which didnt make any sense, allowed england back into the game, international game, and we ended up winning it, and he had been very sporting and i personal lie wrote the lead article saluting this mans courage, sportsmanship and willingness to plead want crowd to allow a game to finish, like it was dying out, fizzling out with no result. Dismen i find out a few years later hed been paid to do it, he cheated, hed thrown the game. I was so disgusted, so disgust. To me it was far worse than any normal person doing it. Sportsmen have privileged lives beyond all dreams. They live ourselves dreams. Most of us want to be a professional sports man but never get near it. I wanted to play cricket for england. I wanted to play football for england. You may have your own childhood harbingers, i have no idea. And i think that it kills it. Each time you hear of one of these cheats it kills it. We have rose steroids in baseball or betting on baseball. Any cheats. I just think cheating in sport is something that just is it it kills everybody because it is killing a dream. Its killing something that is escapism for all of us and it has to be pure. Rose if Lance Armstrong says everybody else is doing it. Its the i was only obeying orders doctrine. It never carries any succor with me. Theres no courage rose have you interviewed Lance Armstrong . Ive never interviewed him. I would feel very angry if i interviewed him because i know the damage he did to a lot of people, the deliberate damage. He was a nasty piece of work with a lot of these journalists. Rose threatening and lawsuits. You know the interesting thing about that, you know, you know that youre lying, so you know who you are. Its an amazing thing to then go after people. To deny it but actively sue them and try to ruin their lives, get them fired, wher ruin their jobs and livelihood. More than that with him. He created this whole Livestrong Charity which raised hundreds of millions of dollars, on the face of it, an amazing thing to do. You could say he built the whole thing as a front to protect himselfs of from exposure for drug taking. And yes he raised hundreds of millions of dollars for charity, but how much more money did Lance Armstrong rake in for himself because of the charitable image he portrayed himself as. He kept saying im clean. Im more than that, im a survivor. Im more than, that im raising hundred of millions for charity. On the back of it he made himself a very, very wealthy man. And its that that sticks in nigh gullet. My first question to him would be when you set up the charity, you knew you were a cheat. Did you do it it to protect yourself. Rose what do you think . I think he did. Rose i dont know about that. I might say eye would join all those who say whatly did to the sport, what he did to competitors, and what he did to truth and what he did to integrity, all of those things deserve the loudest probing. I wouldnt necessarily assume because he was so bad on all of those counts, and especially the kind of intimidation of people and threats of people. Terrible. Rose and trying to avoid anybody having a voice that was not his voice, not the same and bullying younger teammates. Q. I can assume somebody likehie things, whatever hes confessed to, whatever he did, could have a legitimate because he was a cancer survivor. You cant take that away from him. No, no. Rose having a legitimate interest in doing that. I think people are bad and good. I totally agree with that. You might be right. But i have become more cynical about Lance Armstrong and now they know every denial was a complete lie, my cynicism has been increased and i wouldnt put it past him. I think now we know the scale of his deception and want cynical way he did it. Is it beyond the engination that he be constructed this this whole thing with a defense mechanism . I dont think it is. Rose one last thing about Lance Armstrong. I sat today at lunch way friend of mine who lost a woman that he loved deeply. It was not marriage but great very, very, very close to cancer. And he said to me she was inspired by his story not of the foundation is it, the fact that he beat cancer, the idea of that was an inspiration to him. He doesnt deserve any credit for that because you could be inspired by a whole range of other people. You didnt do anything to make a link between that person. That was an interesting ideal. I dont disagree with that possibility but i also wonder what that person would have said no. Now that we know about his potential rose that person died. So well never know. Rose exactly. And we may never know what Lance Armstrongs real motivation is. Im not sure i believe anymore. There have been many cheats but this was a great cheat. He was a seventime rose ive asked people to define the level of this. I dont think theres been a worse sporting chief in history. Seventime Tour De France winner, who turned out to have been a cheat the entire time and bullied younger members of his team to come along with them, too, corrupted them, and inspired millions of Young Americans in particular, to believe in his dream. Its the bike, nothing else. And it turned out to be a pack ofalize. It wasnt the bike at all. It was the krugz. So the ability to inspire has also now been crushed, i think, buyer the ability to shatter a dream and shatter the inspiration by the fact that want whole thing was built on sapped. Rose if you were not at cnn, will you stay in america . Are you retiring soon . laughter another guy that works so hard. I love america. America has been very good to me. One of the things i find ridiculous about my gun control position is somehow im unamerican. Rose i dont think anybody says that. People do say that. Rose i dont think anybody seriously that means the mayor of new york is unamerican. The president is unamerican. My response silike americans. I would like more of you to stay alive. Rose is this the place you want to be . Have you found a place here that youre unlikely to go back to london, a very attractive place. Yeah. Rose and do what some other thing because you still have a relationship there. You still have a show there. You still do things there. I do. But i think the honest truth is i have found a job and platform not just in america but a global scale which is very, very hard to beat. Cnn has hundreds of millions of viewers a day for the show. And i love the fact that it can be the dawley lawmaker athe next minute barbar Barbra Streisand and charlie sheen. You have the same thing hire. I watch the show regularly. The fact that you do that means i suspect you share my view that people can be very narrow minded in their definition of what is interesting or news worthy. Its not just about war, famine, opener politics. Theres much more to life than that, and the ability to meet people from all walks of life and get inside them have the curiosity you have or larry king has or oprah has and also from time to time not just cover big, breaking news stories but shape ape National Debate as we have been doing with the gun control debate and hopefully, from my point of view, have some influence there and to have a clear voice and to give people a clear perspective and an opportunity to assess it for themselveses and make a decision. Thats a pretty unbeatable proposition. Rose what you owe to all of us everybody, what i owe and oprah owes is to make sure you dont take it for granted and you work as hard as you can to be as good as you can, and it doesnt become some tool to do other things. The most inspiring thing i have in america to look at, people like you, barbara walters, oprah, many others who do what i do and have been doing it very a very long time, the energy and determination and competitive spirit that still surges through all your veins. Barbara walters is, what, 64 years old . She kills every day to win an interview. People of her, quist in britain would have been retired by 70 and tending their begonias in a garden somewhere but she wants to beat me every single day to a booking. I cant think of a more inspiring place to work in my particular chosen profession because you feel youre with the most competitive people for the biggest guess on the biggest platform. For any interviewer and were all egomaniacs at hart, really. We love people to watch our interviews. This is the place to be if you want to be rose at this table. This very table. Rose thank you, piers. Piers morgan, good to have you. 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