I wanted to know what white privilege what white men thought about that privilege so I ask and I just interrupt yes you do know she wrote the phenomenal play the white card that's right that was here a couple of months ago and I hope I get down oh my god it was absolutely a phenomenal production and in many ways go ahead it's kind of she's been she's been toying with this question teasing it out in many ways and this is writing this essay is just one more sort of example of that was that rank in their ranking ranking I think Ali what do you say I go to you I ring you have Ok. But just in case I have books people don't know they don't know they do I certainly didn't know this whole term was was popularized in 1988 by one of your buddies over there Wellesley College Peggy Macintosh the invisible pack Yeah I'm packin invisible knapsack but what Yeah what's so what is white privilege you want to start I'm not sure I mean you know it's according to the president of white male privilege according to Dr McIntosh is the invisible systems conferring dominance on a certain group in essence it's the fact that white men supposedly I'm not one so I can't necessarily say one Jim So you know how do you know everything and so you know I don't want to hear the notion that this is their place this is their space this is their world and everyone else who is not a part of the white male crayon is interloping is is is you know in the wrong place at the wrong time to ask permission to be there yeah I mean I think when you talk about white privilege it is interesting because we have a white male here who can probably wax and wane on it on many levels for I think that weighing on it Ok then we can have but one of the things I've learned and big particularly having to sort of ruminate on this thought here of go back where you come from and it's not only particularly about you know sending someone who is an immigrant here but having. As I had last week you know being a kid being bused out to white neighborhoods that I feel like it has a couple of things it talks about birthright that certainly one issue of citizenship ownership and of course you know racial racial preference prevalence year and what I get take away from that is that whiteness is so pervasive and invisible that we're not even particularly white men they're not even cognizant of it because it's a system that supports them but I do think this that we do it just a disservice to so narrowly look at it just from the lens of white men because I think that we got to understand that it is not only support as you know systemically but it but we also got to look at white women because when I think about you know white women and Trump selection 53 percent of white women voted for Trump let's not ignore the sort of white women the sororities the United Daughters of the Confederacy as well and that's the and that's one of the reasons why we're fighting now about the should we take what should we do with these statues these Confederate statues and let's also remember the DOJ is a blight is that's a that's a lesbian organization still men white men just for a 2nd here and then we can get into what you mentioned a minute I'm so glad you said what you said Ana how forward advances the discussion are invited I agree with you that sometimes it's Can't you these were your words sometimes it's conscious sometimes it is not conscious is that. Right but. So do you think the average white man gets an earth when I could on my white man hat you know and I do because sometimes I have bad white days and I say Well Ok I'm not wearing the the white male hat Ok what does that mean meaning that you walk with a sense of ownership that you are as images reiterate that you are oblivious not some off and I got to tell you. Someone just because they've been so emerged in it inculcated in it they don't really they don't recognize how how palpable it is to me but yet invisible to them so that their looks the divide this into 2 classes of people just for a 2nd there are people like me who are doing pretty well and I think. What came up in the election was a wonderful analysis like harem of the guy was the guy from Somerville who wrote the piece I'm not sure was who we're talking about the more that one talks about white male privilege the more one drives white men who don't feel privileged at all and probably on the merits they probably have a stronger case even though they probably do have it better than a similarly situated person of color like them but that working class guy who can't afford to send his kids the college there can't afford to take a vacation cancer afford to retire is his what's his white male privilege while he's white male privilege is it is is the check that was was made out to his to his name that he doesn't have possession of and the challenge here is that the way that the nation was founded and even if you go to the to the naturalization law of 7090 it only gave immigration rights to 2 white people and so so when you think about how policy is dictated by this notion of whiteness and you think about how the nation's educational system is dictated by the notion of whiteness the way we teach history is absolutely wrong and many of us grew up watching cowboys and Indian as if it was sport Now these were people and these were narratives and these were you know folks whose ancestral lands we took I have my white male head on to. Think through that yes this gentleman who who has not been able to cash that check . Still has that privilege because when he gets pulled over by a police officer I don't think he has the same idea that other people have Yeah and you know I just want to expound a bit on what Emmett is saying here so when I do a workshop called the conceptual trap of whiteness and what it does is it's examines ways in which whites are harmed by the system of institutional racism and even though it provides or are perceived to provide enormous amount of privilege to women and I've asked you this Margery and I've asked you this Jim and it's a basic question how you white and how white are you and this falls on to someone like what Emmett is talking about when we read j.d. Vance's you know wonderful book Elegy you got to look at the way in which white privilege the delusion around that for them is really predicated not only in terms of ethnicity depending on your white ethnicity which asks the questions again like I've asked before when did the become white when they did use become white when the Italians become white but we've got to look at someone like j.d. Vance community who will support policies that are not in their best interests out of the whole notion of whiteness of I'm not like them I'm not I'm not other rise or their allegiance really to sort of an economic system that really in many ways disempowered them so can I give you an example laughs when we talk about poverty too one of the problems is is that if you racialize it as black you miss all these poor white folks up along the Appalachian range range all the way up to Maine so these people become invisible but I don't think that while Donal is trying to give them representation in visibility he's not empowering them either you know I thought for people that still don't get this is Peggy McIntosh woman from wealthy case from great examples. Yeah I just read a couple you should say though she said she lives 46 writes for these I think really bring it home number 19. She's saying if you're a white person I can speak in public to a powerful male group without putting my race on trial absent that most of us can get that I can do well in a challenging situation without being called a credit to my race I can go home from most meetings of organizations. Feeling I belong on somewhat tied in rather than isolated out of place outnumbered heard held at a distance or feared and she goes on and I think those are very but another one she doesn't because she wrote that in 1986 I'm sorry and what what she needs to add on is that I can get stop by the police and know that I can go home to my loved one after well I think speaking as a white woman I mean I think my attitude toward the cops probably just 180 degrees different than yours when I mean well not that I want to get pulled over by the cops I mean even Yeah but I rather not worry about you and all Warry devout going to wind up shot yet and I am much more inclined to go to a police officer for help because I don't think he's going to drown out. The interesting about this present to give back to the piece just just briefly because what she does do is she creates a disparity between her treatment as she flying around the world in 1st class and how she's being perceived as not you know belonging in the 1st class line or you know she talks about the fact that she asked for orange juice and Guy next to her got 2 drinks you know you know adult beverages he's mean 2 drinks before she got her orange juice and had to advocate to the store it is for her to get her orange juice he had her yes and so these these this notion of being invisible in white male spaces if you're not. White male Yeah and you know I read an article yesterday as actually was in yesterday's Washington Post and it said here that white Americans perceive other folks other people as less American and they used examples like calling Caprona you know taking a name during the national anthem the civil rights movement the civil war even even even Michelle Obama's statement I think this is when Obama won the Iowa primary and she said something for the 1st time I can be proud of proud of my country yeah of my country yeah. Well I think that I mean because of when you read her book you realize all the terrible yeah racism that she went through and I and I think and there forget that story about how she talked about going to some white neighborhood with her dad and they came out in their car was key so we do wonderful we all of all 4 of us do wonderful examples of explaining you know white privilege and we do it several times you know when we're here with you but what I want to see is the next step forward what is an incremental Scania step that we can take to begin to dismantle white privilege so if I had asked that question which I did of a brawl sitting in your seat about a year ago Ok what member entered her all said to me well I don't remember I think in their day remember in the parking lot no she said it's not. So then I matter but that's totally unrelated that's because I don't want to be an edgy admirer might. Turn to me I mean she said What are you asking me for this is your problem or you figure out what to do about it I mean you're a member yeah it was so yes or so you're not you personally well she may in my case think I mean personally you're the source the problem go figure I'll go dog other white guys and figure out what to do it I would have to say that I'm not sure I don't know what the answer the question is that dress them up I guess you're asking and I think she said I think she gave you one step or she did give you one set but I was I think but my 1st part to the answer would be unsatisfying to her and maybe to you which is you shut down one shuts down the conversation to people who already have the privilege when you start by telling them they have the privilege you know and I mean I mean it's sort of like it's very hard to have a conversation about the advantages you have when it starts that way Ok no you know what that but I see this is where I wish you know you know if I had if I could could do what Oprah. You know used to do with her show she would recommend a book and and most of the nation would read it and the book would be by you know Robin D'Angelo It's called White for Jay Leno Yeah you know and she had her on yes yes you did yeah yeah and she just said that a state in which even a minimum amount of racial Stress becomes intolerable and this in this is what we're having here this is what we're saying you know when you say well when we when we course of nobody that is in a privileged place and nobody wants to feel guilty for the privilege that they inherit because of historical wrong by the way the position I want to clarify what I said a minute ago so I don't have to read 100 emails I wasn't saying that the fact of that privilege in general shouldn't be put on the table the fact of a an advantage one has because of who one is this right not necessarily because of what one does yeah yeah yeah it would be one of the other things that D'Angelo says in her book is that and this is just an aspect of white male privilege is not the all in all because I think this is the other mistake that we make the notion of race and racism the whole thing about white male privilege is not just about race it's not just about racism as a section of a whole lot of snow if you're looking for people who say that they don't see race they'll never see wrestling to the grind of the n.t.s.b. Chairwoman to say Ok We're going to point out who says I teach I don't see racism she said to him if you don't see race then you don't see racism right but also this is a very interesting thing when people say that n l say this to me and to me as a form of like I just accept you as one of us they'll say this but there's always they always say to a person of color I don't see race I agree you know so that and you know I always love this statement by Toni Morrison when she says that race race is a racial act in and of itself so I answer to not notice if someone is black or do you sort of just but it's the same thing with privilege though if if. If you don't and if you don't see the privileged and you don't realize how much privilege you have Also I am so I can answer the question I believe is you what a people like me I mean look around the room of the only white guy oh I am the only white man in the room is you should work to ensure that people who are not white men to take positions of leadership for example we discuss a lot on the show on television the study that comes out the Boston club every year the diverge you know women and even fewer women of color on boards of corporations and Masters it's and in c.s. Where it's in the top 100 masters and let's see how about electing people office one of the things this woman in her piece mentioned 60 is that 65 percent of elected officials in this country are white Well me I think it is 31 per head male I'm sorry only 31 percent are white men so work hard to ensure there are people other than what you I and I give nothing and there's a very sure but you've not answered j.t. Vance's which is what a game a graphic group here does this is a working poor are underemployed group here and so while I think that's a wonderful step in terms of yeah we certainly need more people of color you still leaving that demographic group behind so if I want to change the finances point so that book was also the that some of this was you know what it will be going to blame the victims it was one of the dysfunction in that family he had a grandmother who was great and took care of him I thought his book to me was less about. Poor white in the problems of Appalachian and more about a really dysfunction but he's speaking about he speaking from that social location to understand the complex lives that these people have and that there is a historical antecedent it gives rise to that I saw that Similarly when we talk about black folks in ghettos and we're talking about a black under underclass and wheat. And it has all that kind of complicatedness of dysfunctional family lives that there is a reason why these people behave at this wrong and the problem is we've got to stop talking about them and invite them into the conversation but the let's see is the question now what are you supposed to do if you're trying to be a better white person a privilege I'm a woman I'm not a man and he's an out and I just gave you want to hire more people I mean not most of us are advocating for Advocate. I like James answer a lot but I think another answer is to go back and revisit history Yeah and actually rethink. You know what you learned Yeah because there are some things that in our as we mature as we mature there are some things that we learn that just don't sit well with and we still accept them as fact and its truth because we love the teachers who taught it to us and so go back it unravel that in really press into that to see what really happened now that you have the benefit of. What I'm hoping you can do this is something that like when you look at the main drag in Cambridge where I reside which is massive and you we have no black businesses there and I wish that we could address the issue because I love the sea port area because I love my spouse and we love coming down the Legal Seafood but I'd like to see some black you know businesses so if I see a Jamaican shop I can go and get some jerk so you know curry chicken you know see many black people never mind black Oh I have to talk about and talk about how they look at us like flies in a bowl of milk but we. We have a right for the view to have a right to that view what are you doing this week by the way we're sure about well this what's coming out is talking about this whole notion of when is someone black enough are not black enough and then the next one is about forgiveness and an apology so I already thought I already forgive. Emmett even bringing up the topic. Well I love the 1st one I'm sure you want to know what I am listening to like a stag I need some relief after Robert Mahler all day long. And I'm a Price thank you very much I read a syndicated religion columnist the Boston voice for teachers African-American heritage any visiting research and religion and cons of transformation and bs School of Theology and the chief. And. Institution in the study of the black church Christian experience accord in Kama Theological Seminary they're also the host of all the new high caste. All. Right by the way tomorrow night and it's going to serving as a panelist for the Boston man March Parker's just community conversation and saying oh man. Race or musical theatre and the concert stage in truth. Orchestra we're coming up to the Republicans called the party I'm late getting harder to story next change minds to that next and 870 g.p.h. Boston for the trip you know. I'm in a room raffle coming up later today after years of legal wrangling the Boston calling corruption trial is getting underway this week and it's been more than a month since the redline the real Many would rather see their commutes are still full of frustration every day late or see no problem. Or do you say but today every day those stories in all the news starting in 4 On w g b h is All Things Considered. Our programs are made possible thanks to you and Boston Children's Hospital named the number one. Children's Hospital in the nation by u.s. News and World Report for the 6th year in a row Boston Children's where the world comes for answers learn more at Boston Children's dot org and the trustees caring for the vulnerable and living Massachusetts coast from leading clean up that crane beach and restoring the great marsh to monitoring shorebirds on Martha's Vineyard learn more at the trustees dot org slash coast. Public radio Marjorie last week during a press conference House minority leader Kevin McCarthy deflected questions about Trump's raises 3 pts but evoking a man who is the exemplar of moral courage and his party has been very clear. What President Lincoln the man who fall tonight a country that had been decimated by racial divisions agree hearings in Studio 3 to talk about the folly of the g.o.p. Enshrining itself in Lincoln's vergers and elegant him self would lead today's Harvard historian and skein Nancy hold the James e. Robinson chair Business Administration of Harvard Business School Her latest book is forged in crisis the power of greatest leadership in turbulent times alone it's going Hey there if you can I heard Kevin McCarthy now think the Republicans are the party of Lincoln about fall off the chair but you have written it extensively about Lincoln he is your area of specialty are the Republicans in 2001000 deed the party of Abraham Lincoln so I think the 2 most frightening things I have heard in the last week are Kevin McCarthy saying that and and the audacity and shamelessness of it and Adi Tao this very interesting surprising scene you're talking about we have no Shakespeare in any of our courses but luckily because of this amazing collaboration between the Cotton School and the Huntington theater that's being rectified both are extraordinarily frightening statements that tell us a lot about the problems of our age. Lincoln. The Republicans have decided I will actually want to color our listeners' attention on this topic to a really interesting and now it seems remarkably naive article by a reporter named Declan d e c l e n Walsh this is published in The New York Times October 15th to 2016 Donald Trump and the g.o.p. So remember deliciousness 3 weeks before the election the party of Lincoln comet Reagan and perhaps extinction and it is a part it is a piece about how where the Republican Party briefly came from right Lincoln's kind of leadership of the president in that in 8 to being 1961 let the Republican Party formed after the Whig party collapsed in the early $850.00 s. Largely collapsing around the issue of slavery and then this long history of a party that had largely supported civil rights in the United States after the Civil War But then interestingly enough beginning in the 1940 s. Ing Excel or in the early 1960 s. Became a party that was much more about white supremacy and certainly against racial integration let's put it that way this transformation so the article is minimally about that is largely about people like Lindsey Graham saying this to your listeners is 2015. Trump call Linda Grant called Trump a race baiting exonerate phobic religious bigot that does not in any way represent my Pardi. And then he goes on Declan Walsh to talk about the Republican senator from Massachusetts elected I believe in the mid sixty's Edward Brooke I don't remember that name but I know a little bit about him he talks about a resolution passed by the Republican National Committee in 2012 saying the party would not write off this is the overwhelming majority winnable Barack Obama as president 2nd term the Republican Party say in the aftermath we will not write off any demographic or any area of the country whatever it is because we're going to be a party that represents everyone and the last point that Declan brings up and this again is all done in great seriousness because the election hasn't happened and the transformation of Republican Party hasn't happened in to calling for something called compassionate conservatism which is a term we bandied about a lot. Right in the early knocks with George w. I thought I wonder was it was thought was a 41 or was about 43 I wasn't sure if any of it my point my point here and in the article is wonderful you must read it's brief it's extraordinary because you your mouth falls open with what has happened so quickly since right a party that has zipped up its mouth. You know in response to Trump's to President Trump's extraordinarily divisive toxic racist and white supremacy remarks against all kinds of people not just not just elected Senate or House Representatives members that we've been talking about for 2 weeks but throughout the campaign and throughout his presidency but then and then opening that mouth only to support him and say he's not racist and now as you said in the opening segment of the show today right many of them getting involved to say well if you're calling us that we're just going to turn around and call you that back so so none of this has anything to do with Lincoln dear listeners that's a long way of getting to the point has nothing to do with Lincoln has nothing to do with the founding principles of the Republican Party it has and it's an affront not not not to you know the man in marble Abraham. And that Maureen Dowd begins her piece that we're working off of by the way called rail splitter versus hates better marine Dow July 20th New York Times because she's talking about the contract she's using as Kevin McCarthy quote just saying I'm sickened by this contract by the attempted You know linking of Lincoln in the current Republican Party but not talking about linking them in the Lincoln Memorial i'm time at the person who I know well who became a person that really did believe over the course of the war and was willing to bet the entire country's fate on the Declaration of Independence promise that all men are created equal a person who changed who started all this talk about the change very significant on what an unknown who black Americans were we just heard the reverence talking about you know white privilege who black Americans worry started in one place and became as a human being and then as a leader willing to place a very difficult controversial bets on a new vision for America that he believed fundamentally represented the original promise right that all men and women we had are created equal what tell us about that change that because he was a politician he had to get elected he had to get reelected so give us the story of that transformation to this why is would be very very careful about you know the doubts column gets tons and tons of comments or tons and tons of talk about this in the in the chatter most of the most people don't know Lincoln's own personal journey which is here's a person who at a young age when he was in his early twenty's saw slaves. On a flatbed boat headed south chained up and said to his friend at the time and this is just the most repugnant terrible thing I ever said he's ever ever seen now he then spent a career in politics well in and out of politics and and but on the public stage beginning in his really in his one to in his thirty's and then being very very careful about what he says about the institution of slavery and when we get all the way to 858 in the Senate debate debates for the seat the us. Senate seat from from Illinois which he's he's contesting the incumbent Stephen Douglas for he is a Republican Douglas as a Democrat in these debates he will say it at one point in a more conservative section of Illinois downstate he will say I never said that African-American that Negroes are equal to white people I never said so he's very careful backpedaling because God Douglas's and you think a white man should marry a black woman and he says just because I don't think she should be enslaved doesn't mean I want her for a wife so so it's it's a different time and he's very very careful to say all the way to the White House dear listeners I will not interfere with the institution of slavery where it exists because it's legalized in the Constitution so that's where the presidency of Abraham Lincoln begins I don't think there's any doubt in my mind that he himself is very much opposed to it as a human being not allowed he thinks politically to say that without sabotaging his chances and I think also of also I think he doesn't know any black Americans so it's not like hey you know I had these good friends or I this person was someone I worked with when I was a husband when I was working as a day a journeyman and so I know blacks or negroes as they were called and they're they're like you and I are to other whites he doesn't have the experience but the the war and his time in the White House changes everything everything in the in the changes principally because it becomes I think most significant after after dear listeners he issues the Emancipation Proclamation which I do not think is fundamentally about black Americans right it's about one week we have no other card to play there's so much abolitionists sentiment in the north to support this bloody war there has to be a bigger principle than simply slavery exists and we go on in the north as we always have it has to be for something more decent It has to be about the integrity that you were talking so much about the top segment we're talking about where are the integrity of congressmen and women voting for impeachment or not voting for impeachment so I think that comes out he misses the Emancipation Proclamation part . Out of strategic desperation and partly out of a sense of there's got to be something more to this war once he issues it though here's the point and this is not been extensively written about once he issues it he's like I'm committed now where is this going to take me well the 1st place it takes him is into massive midterm defeat for Republican cut them are brought up in Congress but the 2nd place it takes him to more important places brought black Africans are now recruited to be soldiers and in that a lot of things change because it turns out that blacks I've said this before in the program in list at something like the right volunteer to fight and something like the rate of 20 times their numbers as whites do as Lincoln said there's a lot at stake for black Americans Secondly and we made him a promise promise being made must be kept Secondly they fight so incredibly courageously that Grant and Harker and need and chairman are all telling other people and the president about this 3rd he gets to know a number of articulate very serious black men while he's president including Frederick Douglass and says and basically over the last 2 and a half years of the war Lincoln become has a very very different idea about where the country has to go and who African-Americans are and sees them in what today would call a much more sort of a much more modern look progressive white then. And then he then he did 5 years before and certainly they did as a young man growing up on the Indiana frontier so so Lincoln through hard knocks and an extraordinarily difficult experience real suffering not only on the part of this extraordinary the bloody war which was very conscious of and very depressed by but inside this transformation becomes like he develops the moral courage from the inside out Jim it comes to have a great impact so for Kevin McCarthy to take that experience and trifle with it and why about to me and I'm you can see I was just I just I'm I'm gobsmacked It's so it is so not only repugnant is so far especially when we know that Lyndon Johnson when he Plas the civil rights legislation when he was the president realized he was going to lose the Democrats in the south he says he was advisors like well we just lost the deep south that's right and I think strong Thurmond by the way I think changed parties right in the little run up to the 1st Rights Act So they became Republicans which was not the party of Lincoln back in the sixty's never mind. No that's right and so begins the transformation What did Nixon called it's I was just a southern strategy that the strategy was either just the the transformation the Republican Party but you know it's really funny too when you look at the Republicans in the House or the Senate I mean we're basically talking no people car almost none I mean how many how many Congressman are you got. From South Carolina. Was another Republican Well I got my I mean I love just was voted out because she was. Supportive of the 1st black woman yeah and so I would not say there's a there's a huge and group of of and color and then think about a party of Lincoln think about the recent vote on condemning Trump's words. About. About about these these very public and and determined Congresswoman. Think about his words and how the the house you know issues this under plays his leadership and issues this statement of condemnation and I believe only for Republicans I mean Lincoln is turning over in his grave and he wherever you are so whatever you do you can play these kind of cards my friends these cards scar you would he say he once said I have to I have to end the war in a way that end slavery I would be damned in eternity if I didn't live up to this promise these people are being damned in eternity and they don't even know what or if they do they've decided to take that whatever short term based game they gain they see this in exchange for this bargain with the devil which is racism now historian I think came when you mentioned that the Republicans got walloped in the midterms back in Lincoln day after the Emancipation publicly but was promulgated on September 18th as his what does his reelection prospects look like at that time link is will the it's one literally with the battle's right of the Union one has its you know his effectively what would say his poll ratings as public support went up and if the u.n. Lost it went down so going into the summer of $64.00 for example everyone is pushing him this is an important point and you tell the story everyone is pushing him the head of the Republican Party who happens to be involved with New York Times a bunch of other congressmen his not really as cabinet per se didn't use them as political advisors but a lot of people are pushing him to sue for a negotiated peace because there hasn't been a union victory even with Grant at the head of the major government army federal army there is a man union victory a long time it has been unprecedented casualties and he gets really close this is so interesting you don't learn about this very often but it's really really close to the line of saying Ok let's let's bring up now it's telegraphed Jefferson Davis and talk about a negotiated peace that lets the Southerners keep their slaves he gets he gets really close he has. I want to do it he doesn't say anything to anyone and then he says I'll wait to talk about I want to do anything until I talk to Frederick Douglass who is coming in for a different reason and his chat with Frederick Douglass's August 18th 64 Sherman and grant her bog down Grant in Petersburg and Sherman out on the outskirts of Atlanta to peddle battles I can't seem to be won by the union and Douglas says you can't do this you made a promise you are you made a promise you cannot as you be this would this would this ruin everything you've tried to do and Lincoln says you're absolutely right and there's no more word negotiate page than he's cold and he holds a lie and direct and through 2 weeks later Sherman takes Atlanta and his election prospects then because it's clear you'll be re-elected and he is with huge numbers interest only of votes from the field what pushed Lincoln over the top he was running as McClellan one of his adored McClellan one of his former generals was largely a soldier's body in the fields of a clown the general that wouldn't fight Yeah so who voted on a. Good run of the platform back to the power politics of race he'd run on a platform saying you know we're going to get back to a way things were when extend slavery the Slave Power will be bad will be we firmly implanted in America all will be well what last thing my friends I'm I'm thinking about this topic guess I'm opening up the fridge to get some iced tea because my air condition has broken so all I'm laws are a ball joints and I have this flash that So you know Kevin McCarthy dares to say this somehow he knows how all these people know how crazy this is and they're you know they're pretending the Emperor Has No Clothes right on and on and on and I think what's going on I think you know Lincoln didn't just change and put an incredibly important righteous stake of decency and equality in the ground in fighting that war to end slavery became a war to end slavery not to keep America together to persist to end slavery restore America was meant to be he didn't just do that he did that and he managed to tell the world and his American citizens My fellow citizens over and over again that in spite of a war that killed 1100000 people 9. Or killed or injured 9 percent of population of the time that this experiment was still worth preserving and even more worth preserving once you excise the cancer slavery and he did that 1000 ways over and over again where is that you 9 ing a cut country that was more divided even then we are now. Where is the. Leader or that set of leaders come make no do not tarry as Shakespeare would say with haste Lords Kloster and what star get here Mr Lincoln and help us thank you very much. Very much appreciate that that was Nancy Kane Harvard historian She joins us weekly she holds the James Robeson chair of business administration at Harvard Business School Her latest book fortune in crisis the power courageous leadership in turbulent times thank you very much. Oprah know I've been asking you if sharks are taking a bite out of your summer vacation plans are you afraid to go in the water on all Cape Cod That is next on any 97 g.p.h. Boston Public Radio. The globe is warming but his the answer is simple as planting more trees we know he ways are going to get more intense more frequent so cities need to start thinking about trees and parks as a way to prevent those deaths during heat waves the role of trees in healing our planet and ourselves that's next time on the take away from. N.p.r. I this afternoon at 2 only on 897 the g.o.p. . Support for our programs comes from you and Commonwealth Shakespeare Company presenting Shakespeare's mystical dramedy Cimbali in this summer's free Shakespeare on the Boston Common on stage now through August 4th learn more at come shakes dot org And the Boston speakers series presented by Leslie University thanking its sponsors and the entire Boston community for their support of the sold out 200-1920 season of The Boston speakers series information at Boston speakers dot org. Welcome back to Boston Public Radio Jim Brady more driven by the way we mentioned just an update earlier in the show that there was a hearing the Transportation Committee having a hearing today on the mess that the registry the Globe is reporting that the hearing was halted when 2 officials didn't show up to testify including the guy who runs the subdivision that deals with these notices and was in London on vacation for a week and I could not come back even after what he disclosed Donegan I don't know deal but in a case that's what the Boston Globe is reporting So Ok got his jump start on shark week in fact in Cape Cod It seems like every week this summer Shark Week one of Lay's shark encounters is gone bar you both seen over the video footage of a group of boys in their father's fishing Cape Cod Bay when a great white shark leaps out of the water snatch a fish one of the boys has caught further underscore the menacing present. Of sharks this summer Christmas Tree Shops you all know this around the Cape Cod have pulled merchandise from their shelves that make light of shark attacks are opening lines for lesser minutes here asking you if the throne Rashard has you rethinking your summer vacation plans are you going to avoid sharks this year or are you assured by the current shark risk that the find of the United States even considering only people who go to beaches a person chances of getting attacked by a shark is one in 5 to 11000000 877-301-8970 so what's the deal with you Margaret Well I tell you I mean I was down the Cape this weekend lucky me and I was swimming in the ocean yesterday it was really on the side not down the national seashore rain or Chatham where that a lot of these sharks have been spotted but there was a helicopter that came flying by the beach at one point really slowly in basic and I wanted to look at sharks like what was it like I was like I have no idea I think I might have a news camera looking at the massive you know sea of humanity is on the beach yesterday would you could imagine the heat and stuff like that but you do think about I mean I think about I thought about ever since I saw Jaws a 1000000 years ago but I've seen about 3 Can I was not like venturing out to 50 feet from shore let me just mention when she was thought of the guy who's the number one shark expert in the state is off the air right and it's gone so yeah whatever his name is saying above 3 or 4 feet we don't need your waist or don't I was $970.00 and something I remember is fictional but it was 10 feet 4 feet of water within 10 feet of shore something like that you want to get out there far my strategy now stretch my ankles and then just sit down in the water jug I think that we changed some of the plans from one town to another because I mean I thought I told you and you're a good you know I can't I said the stars can swim for a while or you are not into ponds they can go into pods you know I mentioned that I was on the Cape less summer in between the guy who was bitten and Arthur I hope I pronounce and then manager who we have killed. And I was it there that week 6 I was on the beach where the 1st attack happened and there were surfers who were out 100 yards 75 yards whatever is known as we've all read the underside of surfboards particular dark ones look to some sharks like seals which is part of the issue so I have to say I don't want to see anybody suffer in terms of business I love the Cape I don't want people on property or stores or their livelihoods depend on the summer tourists to suffer but I think this is dramatically changing the equation for most people are used to spend in their time on the Cape I mean don't you think so I would not want to be in a surf board or windsurfing or kite Not that I know how to do those things anyway but I mean I just I like to say up to my ankles you kind of roll around sure why a $77.00 is a cold or you go to get out of the whatever the way I've always resented people this is horrible to say but it's true anybody who goes to the Cape and stays at a motel or hotel specifically because there's a pool I always thought was it was appalling I mean if you go to the cave you go in the ocean you go in the bay you go in some but I I I'm I have some trepidation and if I had young kids still I would be I would never allow them to go in the ocean again which is horrible to say you know by the way you know it's an interesting thing I had the other night Neal Swati Who wrote a great piece in The Globe Sunday magazine that goes in this week about the whole history actually interviewed Peter Benchley officer of joy as his wife People actually is obviously dead he interviewed his wife and Benchley he's attitude totally changed about sharks after he wrote Jaws and David Ropeik who is a risk you know does a former reporter who does risk stuff and one of the stats I looked up you know that you're 50 times more likely to be killed by lightning just as an example when you are by a shark. Is anybody scared to get hit by lightning No it is everybody's scared of being killed by a shark the answer is yes it's part of how you go it's exactly Ropeik said it's much more grotesque the method of desk death is but the like how many years had it been before Arthur meant it she was at 80 some years since long time I think it was 8 decades and but having said that I think it's going to have an impact so little has a spot or flies planes flying along on the outer Cape now watching for great white sharks where they are they have all these safety protocols obviously done at the beach there so that they have new systems because the cell service is terrible they new systems there that's to the point cell service is there to get in touch with authorities I'm not sure that when walkie talkies or what they're doing they have all these shark protocols up there with signs with since I mean the whole thing is a little you know I saw I tell you I saw Jaws it was Universal Studios in l.a. . Looking very fake looking Karen in Franklin your 1st on Boston Public Radio thanks gone in hi hi how are you. I just want to make a comment I've seen the video this morning early on the news and wild as I crazy but my my main concern was not just the sharks are bad enough but that shot came so close to that boat and not one of those children had a safety had had any kind of a life jacket on. Oh I just know that's a good that's a good point I wonder what I would I don't know what the rules are if you're out in a big boat I don't know how big the boat was get it to start interrupt. I would just think that at this point you know it should be safety 1st whether you're on the water or you know going in the water on the water you know with what's out there surely at any rate even with the notion that the young boys should have safety Well let me just propose an alternative vibe and agree that Karen is this summer I'm going to be fishing in swimming pools or just going to Whole Foods of the same apartment. Safe the life jacket or not and I agree they should be where not I mean if you end up in the water I say that's a pretty yeah difficult circumstance you know they were lying around those plans are going to are open because La Paz that closed down and why sign up that teria Is that true yes because of the massive rainfall you know we having these extreme weather conditions now with climate change and these massive rainfall as we get like 2 inches of rain so the people the chemicals that people are putting on their lawns and the cesspool if they're interacting and that sort and they are shut down if you know another possibility is not quite as exciting a good shower a good. Good hot shower in the summer it's a hard thing to actually stay close to shore where rescuers can reach you swim paddle kayak and surf and groups do not isolate yourself I guess that increases the app the possibility that the truck will get the persons were next to you and I also tell you I learned something from Neil soirees ass and the old the other day the quote from the Globe Magazine is the conventional wisdom is this is all about the the seal population and how they're protected and all that sort of stuff and a lot of people these community meetings in the Cape are saying you know kill the seals or repeal the law or something Neil went out I think in the Cape Cod Bay with a bunch of experts on this and there were I think he wrote somewhere the neighborhood of a dozen great whites you know what they didn't see any of seal seals so. The point is there is a deep problem here and it's a bridge there's a problem and yes we were really careful and I think that I think that's a good time to change I mean you know never mind little or no go ahead of how you're going to if I'm just saying I cannot believe that people are not getting concerned last week and we thought that after the wildfires out in California can afford not to fight the wildfires that people are not getting along I tell you one thing it's only tangentially related since you mention the weather summer I can't tolerate speaking of one more person that uses the term real feel in a sentence I just can't take it on will real feel for the temperature that dries it does that tri be a 100 is hot we know it's not real feel me at 912 not but do you is that up so it is not is it upsets me no it's not just Ok that's what I think I think you're lot about the real shower that was what I'll remember the shower Yeah forget you know the ocean Pod Lake No Some I 1st preference take a shower and take a long shower It's why not environmentally and fabulous for you but you stay in there for a while the whole problem you know once I I'm not naive enough to say it solves the whole problem but it's always a problem a good legs don't have Sino back to take a coal oil in with you into the shower earth that is now with those little fish that are big goldfish on the cold calling I have no idea this fish bowl I don't know what they call it Ok fine print in the car Thank you for finding. Anything Margaret for taking my call your what I think. I just spent of beautiful weekend up on Lake Winnipesaukee women out way far from the beach we critics worry that no shark was going to come up and quite exactly like you the way to go. Laker definitely favor I'm originally from Falmouth and I remember when I was maybe a senior in high school this was in 2007 or so there was a great white shark that found its way into what soul r. And I member you know this is that was a big you know everyone's like oh my God there's a great white I don't want to fight except that. I think maybe you just got out for the rest of them and they figured out that. For years my friends. May or may not have a few drinks we dared each other to go for a stocking you know the water after dark. So of course we were all being very old and yeah no problem we got this all starts up like me I thought I'd never swim faster in my life like a little water I swim and that I could all I could see would be everything in fact don't a little uncomfortable look at the ocean oh you're an honest guy Brendan What do you think about Marjorie's Maki What do you think about since you're from the cave What do you think of the shower idea that I proposed a couple minutes ago and it immediately you need to be a little creative and what you think about as an alternative I think whatever what you know whatever floats your boat Jim whatever so to speak yeah exactly Brendan thanks for the call by the way you have a bias I mean your sister your how your summer thing is on the way yet it's on a lake on lake right there on sharks and wait there are no sharks but I'm very worried about Sinai bacteria I mean that's a big enough like thing it's in part of the like I'm a not my part thank God But but in part because people are using these terrible chemicals on their lawns really just her water and. They're not doing their stuff you know like in a year 2 or 2 steps they are barman So you know that. To be too hard to go outside can go to the water because of the sharks and the sino bacteria. Real hits it's. Email this is for Alyssa The She's taking the kids to fell the next month and the case may take it for years but she's totally freaking out and this is Buzzards Bay We don't go out far enough I'm going to enjoy a single minute she says her kids thankfully are unaware of her new to her nurse was the woman's name Elizabeth I am totally with she said I feel I really do feel I love the Cape but I decades I've been going like probably many most of the people listening and you don't want to hurt anybody's business you don't want to hurt I mean a lot of people depend upon their summer income to get them through the whole year to really think this is scary it does I was swimming yesterday I like to float you know with my toes up about the water I love it but I'm I'm calculating how many people are behind me like further out thinking well the shark cops you know is there 1st are you thinking about I would be a very afraid of being alone and floating in the water because I think I would see the shark coming and I was I was pretty close to shore I mean I just used to like to swim up and down the you that on the beach not doing that anymore maybe you can hire someone for minimum wage swim outs that could be a new job people swim. Out further out than you are like 1715 hours and little premium over the whole group did a pot of people John to make sure that the odds increase you know is the thing if it's only 2 people it's a 5050 shot if you're by yourself again it could be all over it 25 people have a chance also I don't know what the ocean beaches are like I mean I go to lower your Robbs league Ok but I know but in lower case the vast majority of ocean beaches there's an incredible right line what's called One Drop drop it's like you're literally 2 feet away from where the water starts and there's a huge drop or you go from being like high to like chest high water no serious. You can't talk to you I mean you just make sure haven't caught is saying his face. But it costs. More to swing the horse you're having like a steak for dinner don't carry that in with news that we're signing leave it on the beach can jazz away thinking on it scary high k. How are you oh long time 1st time love the show thank you I had we had an experience of the shark at the Cape left summer there was nothing wow but we were it was it was September 14th the day before that man was killed and we were at one of the beaches in Wellfleet I don't know if was new Come hollow I don't know which one it was but all of a sudden everybody on the beach started standing up like down the beach and I was what it was like is this wave and then I heard someone say shark and we ran down to the water's edge and a shark swam right by it was so exciting to see and it was very close to shore oh so close to shore. Well I'm going to describe you know the waves then you know they go up and they crest and then the crash you know it was in front of the waist Oh my God yes in front of the waves and it swim by and everybody of course everybody on the beach was standing up it was so exciting and then the next day of course we heard about the man who was our hero to try to hear and Wellfleet So which is tragic to some and k. Now you stand not you stand a 6 feet 6 inches of water what you can do this summer. I went to beach on. The way to different it was great hedges the Hamptons Yeah I haven't heard about any beach sharks at Hampton Beach if you know I've googled it and I've no association of yeah I think I mean you don't have to keep going further north before you know Scotia pretty soon would you go in that water again or no. In Cape Cod Yeah no I have not when I'm in the ocean in Cape Cod since 2005 because I was swimming and well I think I'm a coney beach and I feel when I'm tapped me and when I saw that feel like I was like where this shark so I got right out of the water never again I would never play in the Cape ocean waters again Ok thanks you know Robert you see now he said you could kind of ran things up a little bit Jim when you can't swim in the ocean you can't some of the lakes you can't swim in the pool if you take a shower but when you scoop it. Well that's a by the way obviously he's being facetious you do that you create as similar a kind of ascending as he possibly can so it's a song as good as your mask on the can or snorkel you can be our kind of thing to virtual reality kind of mask and sort of but I'm telling you those or the treadmill is another opportunity so there are all these are you know one of the blogs as well Pollan by the way let me beat say without woman what is going in the ocean since whatever your remark on the ocean this year I look I love our choice probably yourself in the oceans really cold even in August sometimes gold like Gabe and you jump in yeah head and you feel great to have you great you know you're excited like I do feel like I'm doing it you might do on the like I said you get your ankles and you kind of roll in the water by the shoreline part Marshfield where you think it was going you only have 30 seconds long time I'm a long time listener Thank you oh thank you to you guys thanks and you guys also help me pace my reach but anyhow I live in the ocean marshaled my swim every day so I don't necessarily feel that we have a threat up here but I do feel confident when I go in the water and I see people swimming for their outer exactly exactly oh I have to do my swim faster than that yeah I know I follow it stamp on my got to start off we're out of time but thanks for your 1st call do it again soon please thank you very much and we are out of time thank you for listening foundation of Boston Public. I joined the. Studio from public life. More healing from 11321230 crew Arjun Singh. And our engineer. Time in the 2 chairs of legislators Transportation Committee which tried to adjourn their hearing today because through officials from the did not show up. As white opening Boston's 1st pot shop is the 1st person of color to own a pot shop is going to join us with what's next in the process and this one is on believe it's a bird it's a plane the big silver object falling from the sky commuters witness this morning was a hot air balloon. This is not. The people saw Book Jared Cohen. Is joining me tonight to explain the whole story and I'm going to talk my commentary and ideas about something that you've probably written calls about the tampon tax you know about the tax cuts and well you be all over tonight that's it Ok I'm March or you know capes women for the Scooby showering take us of insurance really. Was the most brilliant suggestion of all our. By. Today's Greater Boston sits down with community leaders for conversations about the issues that make a difference in the Places We Live watch Greater Boston weeknights at 7. 2 support for w g b h comes from you and log me in makers of Go To Meeting a collaborative meeting platform with over 800000000 monthly users designed to connect people from anywhere in the world on any device learn more at Go To Meeting dot com Thanks for your support. How many times do you have to tell your story to get the world to listen for a 23 year old captured by ISIS the answer is simple however long it takes watch p.o.v on her shoulders tonight at 9 on to a free press is fundamental to a well functioning democracy we take that seriously a-W. G.b.h. News we're here to be a trustworthy source of information accountable only to the public. News has invested in covering stories that matter from around the world to where you are it's community focused and community funded radio but don't take this service for granted we can't do it without you. At w g b h news.