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You said. and the lehman president, joe gregory, was a master at disguising just how machiavellian what he was and going on at lehman. so i think in fairness to dick fuld he wasnt the only person blinded as to also -- all sorts of human resource maneuverings and things happening, the leverage being taken. joe gregory fooled him and fooled a whole lot of are people too. >> did you get the sense, or maybe you know this in the book, that hiding risk -- >> yeah. >> with the repos on the 105s was a b...

Shortfalls caused by the recession, of course, which was triggered by the fraud and the financial industry. in fact, right here in new york, for example, $500 million in tax refund money may be delayed until the state begins to rebound from a $9 billion deficit, which means it doesnt even have a timeline. is that legal? >> well, its legal because the state will do it, pass -- you know, i feel a little betwixt and between on this one. you know you expect this refund, we know youre paying your bil...