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economy and a stronger foundation. that is what we can do in the next four years, and that is why i am running for a second term as president of the united states. [applause] >> find in the speech from both the democratic and republican conventions on line at the c-span video library. book tv coverage from the 2012 rose above reading festival continues. mary stuck the talks about her book, the finding americans, the presidency in national identity. >> now i have to try to be engaging. i think the most important thing to understand about the presidency in this context is that we always have choices. when you pick a president you are absolutely picking a particular kind of policy, but you're also picking a definition of our national identity -- identity. if you hear president and you like what they're saying to make you feel yourself call to the presidency than they are speaking to you about a sense of the national self that is deeply imbedded in all of us, and every time there's a presidential alexian will one of our previous presidents learned to his sorrow has the vision thing is really an important part of what the presidency does because we see ourselves as a nation through the ways that presidents talk that nation into being. so what i'm going to do today is talk a little bit about franklin roosevelt version of what it meant to be an american at this particular moment in our national history. i did this a little bit earlier, but i want to go back a little bit today and say that prior to roosevelt presidents tended to be very hierarchical in the way they understood the nation. there were often very explicitly exclusionary. it would be people like immigrants or african-americans and sometimes women who didn't get to be citizens and two were specifically located in presidential rhetoric near the bottom of the hierarchy of the nation, and the nation was understood as hierarchical or as local. for many presidents the south became the sort of demon region. and there are reasons for that because there are building coalitions that depend on including people but also always on excluding people. and one of roosevelt's great geniuses as president is that he almost never actively excluded people attended to base his notion of the nation on a very inclusive sense of what that meant. and so that's what i'm going to talk about right now. this book is actually going back a little ways. it's a book on the presidency as a whole and which franklin roosevelt as the pivot. he is the actual center of the book. and in the larger book i examine the complex ways in which our national history can be understood as a struggle to live up to our highest principles while also maintaining a region car keys of class and race that allow for stability. in that history of these things are sharply contested during the roosevelt administration. the economy lay in ruins. african americans were making increasing demands for human rights. women were increasingly flexing their political muscles. emigrants were increasingly being incorporated into the -- all of these groups for integral to the coalition which continues to have an important influence on our politics. it was through roosevelt's rhetoric as much as three is actual policy that he crafted this coalition which is proven to be one of the most enduring, one of the most fractious and complicated international history. roosevelt's vision of the nation and the world of citizens within and was routed in a pluralist political tradition which require flexible says that the president could juggle the various claims menem government. indeed, the metaphor of the juggler, which i clearly and not , was one of roosevelt's favorite ways to describe his understanding of his job as president, the others being cat and magician. he accomplished using for prairie tactics, inclusion denial of the flexion in the for all. these were all unable by his overarching understanding of america as a nation perpetually in progress. the president said i do not look upon these united states as a finished product. your stroke -- still in the making. it is notable that prior roosevelt it was always these united states to be after roosevelt the nation on the stick itself as the united states. it had moved from the notion of collective state to one of an actual mission. from fdr the nation, hierarchies, and citizenship or promised in the future and the present. first inaugural he declared that the basic thought underlying his policies is not merely nationalistic but the insistence as a first consideration upon the interdependence of various elements and parts in the united states. for roosevelt the entire nation was interconnected bill was not there for static and fixed. it was always in motion, all was developing. therefore required constant attention and adjustment, the kind of attention that only a strong presidency did in a strong central government could give. importantly he understood the nation has already fundamentally united. the various interests that make up the nation were perpetually contesting against one another, but there were not your vocally opposed. some people who visit us from other lands across the sea find it difficult to credit the fact that a nation's wrong from many sources, 130 million strong, stretching 300 miles from east to west and all the great essentials of the civilization, much gasol for not only do speak one language, not only of the customs and habits of our people essentially similar in every part of the country, but we have given repeated proof on many occasions especially in recent years that we're willing to forgo advantage for such advantage should only be obtained by one part of the country at the expense of the country as a whole. because the nation a share, believes, common culture, and common interest some groups would be granted by the president temporary political. others would be legitimately deny the clinton government command of a planned to be deferred while others were deflected. most importantly the roosevelt administration was marked by its enormous efforts a political inclusion. these efforts, as clear in his willingness to offer assistance to the poor, differing sharply from previous practice roosevelt treated all the poor as if there were deserving right-hander had been always the distinction made between the deserving and the undeserving. relief under fdr was a matter of right in every legitimate needs also legitimate demands on the political system and therefore earn their loyalty. in addition he legitimate of organized labor in ways that had not been previously seen. upon finding the national industrial recovery act to said its coal is the assurance of a reasonable profit to industry and living wages for labor with the elimination of the radical methods and practices which have not only harassed on his business but have contributed to the ills of labor. note here that the importance of capital and labor, the subject of this discipline. he made a distinction between honest business and radical business. we on of the roosevelt did not hesitate at all to criticize business and businessmen challenging enter analogies and his famous story in a welcoming their hatred in 1936. the flip side of this antagonism to business was that organized labor was able to see him as their champion and did so even when his policies were substantially more pro-business than his rhetoric. this is important because roosevelt became an advocate for labor. he argued as if organized labor was good and worthy and important to life the nation to be the subject of business to differentiation, distinguishing between good business with the government would support and that which the government would not. through this kind of rhetoric fdr was allowed to include labor which coincidentally included many members of the immigrant groups has already fully integrated into the american system while also protecting business as a whole. only bad business practices would be subject to his discipline, capitalism remained the absolute foundation of the nation. as the new deal continued to the mid-1930s to become a little more suspicious. the passage of the wagner act, while in convenient to say the least, in his relationship with labor leader. increasingly he began to differentiate between good and bad labor justice to give the business. he helped labor become more politically visible and often more politically powerful and he expected them to be decently grateful which for him and unlimbering political support for fdr.gggggg one of the important side effects of its inclusion, as i mentioned briefly earlier wasgç the inclusion of an occurrence. americans in the 1930's remains somewhat suspicious of immigration. often associated with equally the also groups such as catholics and jews. people sometimes refer to the june deal. shattering. throughout the decade there were various efforts to restrict immigration to americanize immigrants and to control the behavior of new rivals. roosevelt avoided all of these tendencies in favor of a narrative of inclusion. in one of my favorites of his speeches he says the night has fallen and the spirit of other days prudes over the scene. andrew jackson looks down at us from his printing steep. one of the four corners of the square in which we are gathered around the daily lit christmas tree guarded by the figures of the intrepid leaders of the revolutionary war. this is in keeping with the universal spirit of this festival we are celebrating. he days the inclusion of these immigrants back to the revolution. this is not new. he's arguing these people have always been like this, spin incorporated. it's time recognize that. it is hard to imagine a more eloquent claim to national unity , at least for those of us who trace their ancestry to europe, and it's clear that this rhetoric was meant to be inclusive, although it also is exclusionary for all those who don't see themselves reflected. it is well worth noting that he does include many of those who were previously marginalized and that this inclusion might well have been one of the reasons why members of these groups just about democratic with such consistency. blue-collar immigrants, catholics, african-americans, and jews, from who are subject to rhetoric of join the new deal with what can only been called antigens to force. this rhetoric was based on the centrality of share value. man who said everywhere throughout europe your ancestors and mine suffered from the imperfect and often unjust governments of their homeland. there were driven by deep desire to find it not only security but in last opportunity for themselves and their children. it is true that the new population flowing into our lance was a mixed population differing often and language, external custom, and habits of thought. in one thing we were like. they shared a deeper purpose to rid themselves forever of the jealousy, prejudice, entry, and violence either internal or external that disturb their lives on the other side of the ocean. yes, they saw the life that was less cluttered by expectations of some fishman said that the governments that were not free. a wider opportunity for the average man. i read this. i heard ronald reagan's tax in the back of my head. the reason for that is that every president since fdr has used this invitation of the american dream of one. another, but it was to find for us by roosevelt. in such passages the roosevelt narrative, a consistent story of america personified not by those who had founded the nation by more recent immigrants, those who despite they're surface cultural differences would be participants in the american dream. americans are united by previous experience the oppression and therefore by both the desire to be free of it and the will to act on a desire. that's what constituted the american citizen. that, of course, becomes extremely important in the lead to world war ii. in that sense all americans, no matter how recently arrived or understood as a legitimate defender of the founders, the citizens who were -- on sorry. at least all americans were willing to fight oppression as it was variously defined of the course of his administration were descendants. those founders unfortunately also had some children who grew up to the money changers, doubting thomases, economic loyalists, appeasers, and in general pretty much anybody who opposed fdr. those people were excluded sometimes from the quality and sometimes simply for the rhetoric. he never spoke to asian-american groups, visited american indian reservations, spend time with hispanic and latino communities. never spent much of his effort on african-americans. simply his efforts matter here. >> -- unlike some presidency did not spend any rhetorical effort explicitly in excluding these people but he simply ignored them. and he did attack groups and individuals and it made more than his fair share of such attacks it was an assault on behavior rather than demography. he never attacked people for their class or race but only for their behavior. he failed economic wireless, and jeered at the john and in the so at, selfish and cynical to describe them. he undermined their status, question their motives, and caricatured them with a demonic plea. he made them up but of many famous joke. never quite the same. he was as capable of using interest humor. continued growth is the only evidence we have of life get growth and progress in variable and inevitably are opposed at every step, bitterly and blindly wouldn't that be fun to be the target of such an attack. enemies are not treated as people with legitimate concerns the festival of reasonable point of view but as a malevolent obstructionist been on destroying his ministrations and the viability of democracy. it's important of these people are not identifiable as members of any particular race, ethnicity, religion. to the extent they have a collective identity it was a vaguely defined class or a set of economic interests and occasionally during election years as political affiliation he demonized most brutally those who were already well central in the american political regime and never the people who were at the margins. he did protect many of those old hierarchies. and the steps of this. the tendency the balance interest against one another to produce the common good tended to ignore inequalities in and among and between groups but was applied to add nearly every group of one. turn other. mr. for labor has found itself the target of rows of attention, also his criticism. it was true for african-americans. he granted political visibility. never saw a single piece of sill rights legislation passed during his administration. he did understand african-american needs not as racial but economic. many new deal programs were legally desegregated. of racial justice was important, especially if you happen to be one of the people who was lynched, starving was also important. fdr tended to translate every group interest into an economic interest and would to what he could economically even if he held his hand socially. .. >> but instead relied on language like, quote: we know the human l factor which enters so largely into this picture. we're trying to apply it to all groups needing aid and assistance and not merely to the a few scattered or faired groups. demanding more than the president was likely to give you meant that he would castigate you as selfish or unfair. this rhetoric had a powerful nationalizing function for citizens were encouraged to think of themselves as part of a greater national whole rather than members of small local or statewide communities. he deeply believed in the importance and reality of democracy' essential fairness and argued consistently that his policies were designed to promote and maintain that fairness which would always work itself out as evenness over time. for fdr being a good citizen meant being a good neighbor, able and willing to accept temporary sacrifice for his or her behavior, everyone should have equal access for the necessities of life and above all, an overriding commitment to the common good. these values are important. they do, in fact, undergird the national sense of ourselves, and let me be very clear, i'm not arguing against them. but i am noticing that in making these kinds of arguments roosevelt was making the challenge of building a unified nation seem a bit easier than it was. he ignored structural inequalities and regional differences, and he thus enabled their persistence. he allied local identities in favor of a false national commonality. he disregarded the very real and sometimes principled opposition of republicans, anti-interventionists and other points. his unifying rhetoric, like tha0 >> which aims at a larger good. good citizens thus obeyed the president as good soldiers obeyed their commanding officer. the evocation of a nation organized to fight a war was powerful and at the time comforting. it was also potentially dangerous, for while the military model is a useful one for certain kinds of endeavors, even here in hyde park in the shadow of west point no one is going to argue that the military is an ideal model for democratic government. as suzanne dawgton has noted, this is especially important because in fdr's public rhetoric there's an explicit combination of wartime unity with a specifically religious view of the nation, and there is no doubt that roosevelt had such a view. we cannot read the history of our nation was reckoning the place the bible has occupied. its teaching, it has been suggested, is plowed into the very heart of the race. for roosevelt the united states was predominantly judeo-christian nation built on the foundation of belief in god. that religion underpinned and authorized his leadership. criticizing the president became very nearly an un-christian act. combining two kinds of the generalship and the past rate, combining wartime and religious claims to authority meant that challenging the president was a particularly difficult thing to do. however well this may have served roosevelt's immediate political end, evoking military and religious leadership as models for democratic leadership remain problematic, especially in the context of his claim to be a protecter of democracy and given the rise of dictatorships in europe, these models set into the fear he was promoting a democratic dictatorship. whatever the problems with fdr's particular brand of leadership, its success is unquestionable. roosevelt argued consistently for a unified nation under the guidance of a strong chief executive. that unity was premised on what he understood of the fact of increasing national interdependence. he also understood citizens less as geographically-defined units and more as members of economically-defined groups. he thought of citizenship in national terms and of citizens as connected to their economic interests. all these interests were roughly equal and had roughly equal plans on a national government. the president's main task was insuring a balance among and between these groups so that the nation would be both stable and just. but when social justice is understood in largely economic terms, something important is being overlooked, for community life explicitly defined in christian terms as something akin to social justice is not reducible to economics. and when the president puts himself in charge of deciding when social justice has been achieved, those who are underprivileged lose the right to decide for themselves what such justice might look like and when it might be appropriate for them to push their claims. make no mistake, the roosevelt administration is an important moment of very real progress for the american disenfranchised. earlier presidents have been prone to argue paternal listically for the validity of specific and clearly demarcated national hierarchies. fdr assumed position of spokesperson for those placed an the bottom of those hierarchies, the common man atop his rhetorical order while still leaving the social, political and economic orders largely untouched. roosevelt relied on a form of civic nationalism, of inclusion on the base of commitment to common belief rather than on ascriptive hierarchies, and this moment the disenfranchised had powerful warrants and inclusion on an equal basis. this became incredibly important following the second world war, of course, as african-americans, women, american indians among others all began the arguments and debates that would explode throughout the 1960s and would eventually lead to unsettling the national order in ways that roosevelt could not have foreseen and probably not have endorsed. under roosevelt the national narrative centered on the immigrant experience in ways that sharpened and defined the national identity as one in which certain ideological positions were presumed to be shared, and in that sharing constituted an american public among those people who came to the u.s. with specific sets of goals and expectations in mind. one author has argued the world we live in is still franklin roosevelt's world, and in many ways, for better or for worse, our national identity is still very much the one he bequeathed to us. thank you. [applause] >> plea minutes earlier -- three minutes early. >> if you have questions, please, move to the microphone and ask them -- [inaudible] >> [inaudible] shifted between the new deal and world war ii years. >> you know, i don't think, i don't think it shifted all that much because what he, i mean, there's very clear evidence from the archives that roosevelt was sort of on to hitler from a very early moment. and when he started arguing in the mid 1930s, so even before his '36 election, he starts arguing against dickty to haveship -- dictatorships and for democracy, and he does it in explicitly christian terms. he uses light and dark, up and down, all of those kind of metaphors. and because that language was so consistent over time with this slight hiccup for russia -- [laughter] right? because, first off, russia is, like, on the side of the dictators and are bad, and then luckily for him -- luckily for him -- there is this siege of stalingrad which allows him to then talk about the russians in exactly the same way he can talk about the british, right? but he keeps that same light and dark christian kind of movement throughout, and that language authorizes his domestic policies and also makes very clear the argument he's making for war. and it causes the anti-interventionists all kinds of problems. because the anti-interventionists end up having to argue that there is no moral principle at stake in world war ii. and hitler makes that argument increasingly tricky, right? and the more people know about this, the more people have to say there's nothing at value, there are no american values at stake in this war. and that argument just becomes absurd after a while because you have to end up saying that there are no moral values that matter. this is, essentially, what happens to lindbergh in america first. and then roosevelt does some nasty things to lindbergh, but -- yes, sir. >> following up on your theme of exclusion and inclusion and disenfranchisement, my understanding is that the right to vote had been confined not only just to white males, but to white male property owners, real property owners. >> that's certainly true in the constitution, yes, sir. >> did roosevelt take any active role in expanding the right to vote? >> no. because by the time, by 19 -- by roosevelt's administration the last group to get the legal right to vote is, of course, african-americans who get no policies under him. american indians get the right to vote following world war i, and the argument is very similar for the american indians as it becomes for african-americans later. they shed blood in the war for the nation, they have a right to citizenship. and that becomes a very important parallel in the civil rights movement and the right to vote. but fdr didn't ever, as far as i know, she says looking at an archivist, there's no evidence at all that he was interested in extending the suffrage, is there? yeah. >> yes, i was just curious because fdr grew up in a relatively wealthy upbringing -- >> it was relatively wealthy. he was stinking rich. >> the guy was rich. [laughter] i've always actually kind of wanted to know, though, what really triggered -- because a lot of people of his class actually started hating e him for the fact that he did kind of -- >> a traitor to his class. >> -- towards or the downtrodden and, you know, the poor. what exactly triggered the idea? because, you know, he simply could have just not cared in a sense -- >> sure. >> and, you know, because, you know, a lot of the other rich american dynasties of the time certainly didn't really have this humanitarian instinct that he did. so i was just always kind of curious what really brought him to be the man who, essentially, before he became the greatest world leader of all time really, how did he become, like, also the man who looked for the, towards, like i said, the poor? >> yeah, there's two answers to that. i'm not a psychologist, i'm a political scientist. the one answer that a lot of his biographers give is that there was a combination of a certain no bless oblige combined with his experience of polio and his experience at warm springs that allowed him to both understand suffering from the inside out and to really experience poverty among people who welcomed him, um, at a time when polio was such a tricky disease that they were, polio victims were often ostracized, and yet it was the poor people of warm springs who really welcomed him in ways that -- so that's one answer. um, the political science answer is probably a little more cynical. barry goldwater was once giving advice to richard nixon -- how's that for a hour risk combination? [laughter] and when asked how would you build a coalition, goldwater said go hunting where the ducks are, right? if you want to get elected, find the votes. and abraham lincoln is the guy who said god must love the poor people, he made so many of them. you want to get elected, the democratic party has always had, to the the the extent that the democratic party has bodies. as will rogers said, they're not organized. but if you want to build a political coalition, you're going to have big chances if you can bring in the new immigrant groups, african-americans who at that time were voting only in the urban north and always for republicans. so he went hunting where the ducks were. >> thank you. >> sure. i don't know if that actually helped, but -- other questions? >> mary, during world war ii there was a concerted effort -- [inaudible] to look out so that soldiers overseas -- [inaudible] in the presidential election in 1944. so -- [inaudible] the logistickings of insuring their right to work was protected? >> all those ducks. >> also made good an effort to help the naacp and african-americans with, against the white primary. >> okay. i did not know that. >> could you repeat -- [inaudible] so that c-span could capture that? >> can yes. i'm going to get this wrong, though, so this is completely unfair. [laughter] you said that there were concerted efforts made by the roosevelt administration to allow veterans or soldiers overseas to vote, which would, of course, have included african-americans although not specifically targeted at african-americans. and you pointed out that the democratic national committee? >> the justice department. >> the justice department was helping to overcome the white primaries in the south with what has sob seen as a spectacular lack of success. >> [inaudible] >> come up here or go to a microphone so people can hear you. >> the justice department in the roosevelt administration offered limited help to the naacp when they were fighting the white primary in what became the smith v. allright decision in the supreme court in 1934. >> thank you. i could never have done that. yes, sir. >> maybe this follows up on the previous gentleman's question. it seems that a very prominent middle class sprang forward after roosevelt's administration, and a lot of people could argue that his policies and attitudes contributed to that. i'm -- and it has become a definite part of our national identity since then. and i'm wondering if that was intentional on his part. was his vision to create the great middle class that ended up coming forward? >> you know, i don't know that he would have understood it in those terms. because the middle class is afraid that so much more current in our time than -- i never saw a phrase like that in the documents of the time. but i do think that he felt very strongly that every person in this country had the right to a living wage and the right to a certain kind of security, a small home, you know, the ability to feed your family. those things seemedhim to be a fundamental -- and he would have called it a fundamental human right. but, and it's interesting because he understood so many things in this economic terms, and the u.n. itself had so much difficulty over the question of economic rights. so there's a lot of interesting speculation as to what the u.n. would have looked like had roosevelt lived. >> thank you. >> yeah. well, thank you all so very much. [applause] >> booktv has over 150,000 twitter followers. follow booktv on twitter to get publishing news, scheduling updates, author information and talk directly with authors during our live programming. twitter.com/booktv. >> let me just say i think you could sum up -- a very timely book. i hope you enjoy it. it's, um, i think it can be summed up in really one sentence, that seldom, if ever, in our history have we seen such a concerted series of vicious personal attacks directed against any president of the united states. completely funded, in this case, by a pair of brothers, big oil barons named the koch brothers, with the assistance of an all-too-compliant american media. and you add those three elements together, and you get the obama hate machine. i'd just like to say a little bit about each of those elements and then open it up for questions until c-span tells us the cameras are turned off. and, you know, let's start with a hate directed against obama. and, first of all, i've got to say, though, i think criticism of any american president is fair game. i'm part of the white house press corps, i go to the white house every day, would have been there today if we weren't coming down here, and every day in front of the white house on pennsylvania avenue there's a crowd of people protesting something. you know? and i love that. i really do. i always make a point of checking out what they're there for, what the issue of the day is. it's a very healthy part of our democracy. and criticism of presidents, of course, has been around for a long time. if you want to go back to the ugliest presidential campaign in history, you could probably go back to 1800 and john adams and thomas jefferson and the things that were said particularly by their followers, not so much the two of them, but the followers against each other. but with president obama it's been attacks not on his policies so much as on him as a person. and we haven't seen that, i don't believe -- and i went back and did a lot of research in presidential campaigns and presidential history -- we haven't seen that directed, that severe and that ugly directed against any president, pardon me, since abraham lincoln. we think of lincoln, of course, as st. abe -- abraham. he wasn't thought of that way during his lifetime. it was only after he was assassinated. when he came to washington, he was introduced to the nation by the kentucky statesman as follows: abraham lincoln is a man above the medium height. he passes the six-foot mark by an inch or two. he is raw-boned, shamble-gaited, bow-legged, knock-kneed, pigeon-toed, slob-sighted, a shapeless skeleton in a very tough, very dirty, unwholesome skin. his lips protrude beyond the natural level of the face but are pale and smeared with tobacco juice, his teeth are filthy. [laughter] peat your president, your new president of the united states. [laughter] at the same time, another paper published this profile of mr. lincoln. mr. lincoln stands six feet tall in the his socks, which he changes once every ten days. [laughter] his anatomy is composed mostly of bones, and when walking, he resembles the offspring of a happy marriage between a derrick and a wind mill. [laughter] his head is shaped something like a route bag georgia. he can hardly be called handsome, though he is certainly much better looking since he had the smallpox. [laughter] flash forward, right? president obama called a racist, a marxist, a fascist, a dictator, a muslim -- that's not meant as a positive term, by the way, a man of faith, a muslim meaning a terrorist -- a nazi, a foreigner, jack an -- jackassa lie offon the -- liar on the floor of the house. this obsession with obama as a person is what others have called the otherring of president obama. they have to kind of prove that he's not like us. and a lot -- some of it, not all of it, but some of it, of course s the color of his skin. he's black, and we're white, he's the first african-american president. but it's also he is not a true american, he wasn't born -- the whole birth certificate nonsense. all to show that he is, again, something different, something else, something foreign. it's really this obsession, as i say, to try to destroy president barack obama personally. david horowitz, one of the most conservative commentators out there, actually calls this, he himself calls in the obama derangement syndrome. they just can't help themselves. and i don't know how many of you heard about this, but it goes on. last week the leading federal judge in montana sends out an e-mail on his official judicial e-mail account to his friends this joke about, um, little old barack obama asking his mommy, you know, why am i black and you are white, and she says well, for all i know about your father, i'm surprised he didn't bark when we had sex, meaning having sex with a dog. i mean, he did this on his official federal e-mail, and he said, you know, i don't usually send jokes out to friends like that, but i just thought this one was particularly funny. that's how sick these people are, and that's what we have seen over and over again. again, directed not so much against -- you can disagree with president obama's health plan, that it wasn't strong enough or that it's government takeover of health care. you can disagree with him on taxes or whatever. but this is against him personally and trying to destroy and discredit him personally. the obama hate machine. and it's not just fox news. it's out there because the couple of people that most americans have never heard of, the famous koch brothers, charles -- now famous, charles and david koch. and, again, we've seen, um, corporate-sponsored attacks against presidents before, particularly -- and i outline two of them -- franklin delano roosevelt. by the way, with that it was the dupont brothers. there were three of them at the time. they actually banded together, put their money together, formed a thing called the liberty league to deny fdr a second term. and, um, then with bill clinton, of course, was richard mellen scape who funded the investigations that led to paula jones and on ask and on, articles in the american spectator. but nothing compared to the money and the organization that we've seen on the part of charles and david koch. who are the heads of koch industries, they are the third and fourth richest men in america, people in america, both men. you know, we know about bill gates and warren buffett. these are number three and number four. combined wealth of $50 billion. they have but more money in -- by the way, i have to say this, they do some good things. particularly david koch who is the wealthiest man in new york city. you thought michael bloomberg was. no, it's david koch. but he funds the metropolitan opera, big supporter of it, the metropolitan museum of art, cancer research centers around the country. but most of their money goes into political activities, and they are everywhere. the heritage foundation in washington, d.c., koch brothers. the cato institute when it started, koch brothers. some of you may know now the koch brothers, cato kind of went its own independent way, and the koch brothers are now suing the cato institute to get it back to being a totally-controlled koch brothers operation. people -- americans for prosperity, is the most active political organizations today, all funded for the koch brothers. freedomworks, dick armey's organization, koch brothers. john kasich in ohio, koch brothers. candidate -- bought lock, stock and barrel by the koch brothers. same as scott walker in wisconsin. everywhere. in many california a couple of years ago there was a measure, prop 23, on the ballot to repeal the new clean car standards put in by arnold schwarzenegger. that measure to repeal those standards, which lost -- prop
long lines outside of stores so they can save money on black friday the clock is still ticking down to a payroll tax cut expiring. if it does it will cost the average american family about a thousand dollars. >> end of next month, end of the year, this tax cut ends. if we allow that to happen, if congress refuses to act, then middle class families are going to get hit with a tax increase at the worst possible time. >> reporter: speaker of the house john boehner says, quote we told the president in september that we stand ready to have an honest and fruitful discussion regarding th the payroll tax extension, and that invitation til still stands. harry reid will introduce a bill, the price tag $200 billion, no black friday discount there. one smaller than the 1.2 trillion the super committee just could not figure out what to do with. congress has until the end ever the year before tees two run out. a lot can happen even before then. >> there is always the possibility that there could be a government shut down, the continuing resolution runs only through december 16th, and so congress is going to need to do something in order to keep the doors open. but we've seen so many times just over the last few months, that even when phased with a major deadline of that sort it's very difficult to get members to act. >> reporter: so, congress has got a lot on their plates this thanksgiving, and they go back to work on the 29th, just five days from now. julie and rick. jamieguiliani peter. jon rick: steven moore is an economic writer for the "wall street journal." thank you for joining us. what would the economic consequences be if there was not a deal reached on these two things? >> you know, i don't think it would be catastrophic by any means. we did the payroll tax break for this year, as you recall. it hasn't created a lot of jobs. the idea was to bring the unemployment rate down. as you know, rick the unemployment hasn't fallen this year, it's actually bummed up a little bit. there is not a lot of evidence that that plan worked. the unemployment insurance is something that is much more partisan, the democrats are very much in favor of this. republicans are saying, look it is paying people not to work. i find myself as an economist in the camp that says, extending unemployment insurance may be kind of a humane thing to do but it certainly doesn't help to bump up the economy to give people money that aren't working right now. these where the battle lines stand right now. you're right to be somewhat skeptical that they are going to reach a deal. as you know just this week we wefrpbt able to reach a deal on the super committee, on the big deficit reduction deal. rick: we know that that all came down to taxes, tax increases, or revenue is the euphemism that we hear bandied about in washington. is this the same argument all over again, revenue. >> reporter: it will be. i think they can get a deal to extend the payroll tax and probably extend the unemployment insurance. we've extended unemployment insurance five times in the last three years. people are getting up to two years of benefits which is a longtime to get government benefits. you're right, rick the crunch comes when they say how are they going to pay for this $2 billion hole in the government. the democrats say soak the rich. republicans are going to say, look those are employers, let's not put new taxes on employers if we want more jobs. rick: i'm just wondering, obviously there is the argument if you keep paying people to not work, that there is no incentive for them to go and find work, but from an economic standpoint, talk about the impact that these people who have been receiving this money, then all of a sudden not getting it, they don't have that money then to spend, and there is a trickle down, isn't there? >> well, but look, giving people essentially a welfare benefit is no way to increase the economy. what we ought to be doing, in my opinion, is giving encouragement for people to find a job, and encouragement for employers to hire more workers, and that's what's really been messing. one of the problems with all of these kind of temporary bandaids, rick is it's not a temporary problem we have with this economy. the problems are much more stprubgt aourl with the ta structural. adding another $2 billion to the deficit i don't think that will make people feel this is a healthy economy that they want into vest in. we have $2 trillion that investors and businesses are sitting on right now. they are not investing in the economy because they feel there is a lot of risk in washingn of bad policy. i think that is a bigger problem than whether we can extend unemployment insurance for another few months for workers. rick: investors don't like a lot of risk. there are varying degrees of ability to sort of deal with risk, but also uncertainty, the markets don't like uncertainty, and here we are with an election now less than a year away. >> yep. rick: what are we looking at do you think on wall street, and with the markets and all the different indices as we sit here with these debates over unemployment benefits and payroll tax deduction extension and all of that as we head closer and closer to next november? >> i think that the big story obviously this week, rick, which you've reported on is the fact that the super committee couldn't get their act together, and that congress as a whole, these two parties couldn't come together and cut a trillion dollars out of $10 trillion in forecast deficits over the next ten years. to people like you and me and most people watching the show, they say wait a minute, this deficit is a crisis, we've got to do something about it. if you can't cut the first trillion dollars out of ten trillion dollars in debt, how will yo will you make the harder cuts later on. washington isn't ready for prime-time, they can't solve these big problems. that is the reason all this money is on the sideline and we don't have a lot of employers hiring workers right now. i do think 2012 is going to be better. we are starting to see the natural forces of the economy unleash themselves, and i do think the unemployment rate is going to come down. let's keep our fingers crossed. we've had almost 30 months now of 9% unemployment or higher. rick: it's been a longtime and a lot of people out there sitting down and celebrating this thanksgiving today are hoping you're right about that, that better times are coming in the new year. steven moore, senior economics writer for the "wall street journal." happy thanksgiving to you and your family, steve. >> you too, have a great one thank you guiliani fox news confirming that the u.s.s. george w. bush is right now headed for a port in france. now initial reports first suggested the military was stationing the carrier off the coast of syria amid escalating violence in that country that has put american lives at risk. according to several navy officials that is not the case. coming up in a few minutes we'll take a closer look at the chaos in syria and i'll ask a guest a question, could it lead to a libya-like civil ward, and what can the u.s. do now if anything to control the bloodshed there? i'll be speaking with a former adviser to six secretaries of state a little later in the show. rick: a little politics with your turkey today, a new poll showing mitt romney gaining momentum in new hampshire. the site of the first in the nation primary. according to a granite state poll released yesterday mitt romney leads the pack with 42% in the state, that is up from 37% last month. the next closes competitor former speaker newt gingrich with 15%, followed byron paul at 12%, and jon huntsman with 8%. the new hampshire primary is set for january 10th. guiliani michelle bachmann receiving a personal letter of apology from nbc for an off color song played during her appearance on jimmy fallon's show tuesday night. this letter was received late last night, and in it the network's vice president of late night programming wrote that the incident was, quote, unacceptable. well yesterday morning on "america's newsroom" bachmann lashed out at nbc. the network hadn't apologized yet. bachmann accused the show's band of liberal by as. >> the point is, if that had been michelle obama who had come out on the stage, and if that song had been played for michelle obama i have no doubt that nbc would have apologized to her, and likely they could have fired the drummer, at least suspended him. none of that happened from nbc. and this is clearly a form of by as on the part of the hollywood entertainment elite, but it's also i think a sexism as well. this won't be tolerated if this was michelle obama. it shouldn't be tolerated if it's a conservative woman either guiliani nbc says the band has been quote, severely reprimanded. rick: quick break. when we come back a plane traveling at over 200 miles per hour, several passengers on board, crashing into the side of a mountain in arizona. security cameras capturing it. what investigators are now saying went wrong guiliani new information this hour on the search for baby lisa. what police are now saying about the investigation and what it will mean nor little lisa's family. rick: narrowly escaping death and living to tell it all. hear from the pilot who survived this awful crash. that is coming up in three minutes. >> this is lieutenant tamara abraham. i'm stationed in afghanistan. i'd like to wish my grandmother, my oliver and ab abraham a happy thanksgiving. i love you all and i'll see you soon. just one phillips' colon health probiotic cap a day helps defends against occasional constipation, diarrhea, gas and bloating. with the strains of good bacteria to help balance your colon. you had me at "probiotic." [ female announcer ] phillips' colon health. i've been so looking forward to this. when my asthma symptoms returned, my doctor prescribed dulera to help prevent them. [ male announcer ] dulera is for patients 12 and older whose asthma is not well controlled on a long-term asthma control medine, like an inhaled corticosteroid. dura will not replace a rescue inhaler for sudden symptoms. dulera helps significantly improve lung function. this was shown over a 6 month clinical study. dulera contains formoterol, which increaseshe risk of death from asthma problems and may inease the risk of hospitalization in children and adolescents. lera is not f people whse asthma is wellontrolled with a long-term asthma control medicine, like an inhaled corticosteroid. once your asthma is well controlled your doctor will decide if you can st dulera and prescribe a different asthma control medicine, like an inhaled corticosteroid. do not take dulera more than prescribed. see your doctor if your asthma does not improve or gets worse. ask your doctor if dulera can help you breathe easier. ♪ or creates another laptop bag, or hires another employee, it's not just good for business. it's good for the entire community. at bank of america, we know the impact that local businesses have on communities. that's why we extended $13.2 billion to small businesses across the country so far this year. because the more we help them, the more whelp make opportunitpossible. rick: the craziest video i've seen in a longtime, a helicopter pilot who escaped a crash relatively unhurt now reacting to the whole thing. check this out. it appears this a cable may have clipped the helicopter's rote tars as it was coming down. oh, my goodness. the aircraft tail snapping off twisting it around, slamming it into the ground. later, the pilot whose name is greg gribble said he had little recollection of the actual crash. >> because it happened so quickly it was like a dream ready. it was like bang and there were a couple of guys that helped. i don't know if it was my head that hit the seat. you know, if i wasn't wearing the seatbelt it would have been all over. rick: do you believe this guy walks away from a crash like this? it happened, by the way, while he was helping to put a giant christmas tree, pieces of the chopper were found hundreds of yards away. one lucky guy in auckland, new zealand. julie: a dangerous situation unfolding right now in the middle east as the brutal crackdown against antigovernment protestors in syria showing no signs of slowing down. so far more than 3,000 are reportedly dead. and now syria is facing new threats of sanctions, and there are warnings they could be headed toward a bloody civil war. so what can be done? here now david miller, former adviser to six secretaries of state and author of the upcoming book, can america have another great president. thank you so much for talking to us. >> pleasure. julie: the new threats of sanctions that i just talked about, our ambassador not likely returning to syria, do we impose a no-fly zone? >> you know, the escalation from political and economic pressure -- and it's hard to watch a brutal dictatorial regime kill its own people, more than 3500 dead and many more to come without urging more. i have to say we don't want to end up owning another ara country. we've got iraq, we've got afghanistan. syria is different. it's got a serious air defense system. chemical and biological weapons and a propensity to use them. for the moment we'll have to ratchet up the pressure, clandestine support to the opposition which is now armed and at the risk of facilitating civil war, which we already have i think you'll see more of that. also it would be useful to get the turks more involved. they share a very important border with the syrians, you could create buffer zones for an opposition, safe-havens, but this is a long movie, julie. in the end the ark is heading out. like moammar qaddafi, bashar al-assad will go the way of the do-do, but it is going to take some time. julie: they were protesting the regime of bashar al-assad who is on his way down by the way how do we accelerate this without making matters worse? >> that is the tricky thing. i think an arab turkish solution where you get regional powers involved it seems to me clandestine lee, for sure, if you're going to try to start supplying the opposition, the free syrian army with military aid, you're going to need a way to do that. through the turkish border is obviously one way. through the lebanese syrian border is another. the notion of applying a no-fly, no drive, no move zone as we did in libya is a faris keyer proposition. and in the end nato is similar plea not going to go along. ult not be able to get a u.n. security council resolution, as the president got last time around with the acquiescence of the chinese and r*upbgss who will not agree to a slippery slope with respect to military intervention. bashar al-assad is going down but there is no way to predict how long it will take. julie: when we entered libya the obama administration was criticized in getting involved in a civil war. here thousands of people have been killed in this country. again the obama administration seems to have put itself in the firing line, if you will over it's handling of the crisis in syria by not stopping this middle east country to being elected to a human rights committee. has the u.s. turned a blind eye to syria? why are we giving them, and granting syria a seat on the committee? aren't we enabling the assad regime to claim it's done nothing wrong? >> if we had it within our power to block oo u.n. esco from putting syria on a committee, we would have, there is no question. we pulled out all the funding of u.n. esco. our leverage with respect to the u.n. is very limited, and only member states in that respect can -- or enough of them, can block syria as a member of that subcommittee. so, no, if we could we would, but the answer is we can't. and it is the height of hypocrisy, an extraordinary demonstration of how hypocritical the u.n. is, in this case states that were responsible for putting the syrian's there that they would put bashar al-assad's country on a committee to communicate the importance of human rights when this regime is brutally killing is own people. julie: aaron david miller thank you so much for talking to us. >> it's a pleasure. have a happy thanksgiving. julie: you as well. rick: crucial evidence in the case of a missing woman in orlando, florida. police have released a new picture of her, michelle parker is her name. the picture contains what they think could be the key to solving this case. we'll talk with a former nypd detective about that. julie: then the hidden and deadly dangers of one of the most common and popular pain relievers. dr. marc siegl will join us with the warning. you'll want to day staoupbd to find out more. rick: a holiday surprise for these children. their soldier dad is coming home. an emotional reunion straight ahead. >> my name is chaddy hill. i want to give a shout out to my wife and my family in el paso, texas. i hope you all have a good holiday season, i love you all and i'll see you soon. looking good! you lost some weight. you noticed! these clothes are too big, so i'm donating them. how'd you do it? 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[ male announcer ] on at&t, blackberry® torch moves at the speed of 4g. ♪ rick: welcome back. happy thanksgiving. thousands of u.s. troops celebrating the holiday far from their loved ones back home, but they are making the best of the holiday with their units overseas. conor powell is teaming live from us from k u.n. ar province, afghanistan. he has a friend with him. hi, connor. >> reporter: happy thanksgiving, rick. we are streaming live from a bunker here in combat outpost, we are 2,000 or so feet above the valleys here in k u.n. ar. the military outpost is only the size of a basketball court. no running water, very little electricity, and get this guys, food is brought up daily on a donkey each day. since today was thanksgiving the military actually flew in turkey, potatoes, stuffing, all the fix ings for the soldiers here. they got to enjoy good food from the u.s. make no mistake this is a war zone. we saw several battles raging below us as the taliban and special forces battled it out. i am joined by one of the soldiers that manages this outpost day in and day out. i'm curious, what is thanksgiving like in afghanistan on a day like this. >> thanksgiving has never been this way for me ever. it was fun, it was entertaining. there was a lot of distractions going on, there is combat going on around us, but it was good having my brothers here with me, i mean granted i'm not with the family, but these guys are my family right now. >> reporter: what is the hardest part about being away from your u.s. family when you're here? >> the hardest part is just not being at the table, seeing their faces. i mean, sitting around the couches and watching football happen. >> reporter: it's a very different world here every day, isn't it in. >> absolutely. you don't know what is going to happen next. you always got to be serious, have your game face on and make sure everyone goes home safe. >> reporter: there rile are no holidays here, even if they do get a chance to have some turkey and relax for a few minutes, this is still very much a war zone. i'm going to give him a chance to say hello to his family right now. >> i want to say, hi, mom, dad, my brother manny, my sister alex and my girlfriend kristen. love you guys, and take care. rick: an awful lot of people in this country are giving thanks today for specialist santiago and his brothers over there. happy thanksgiving to both of you. thanks so much, guys. julie: that's always very touching to hear those thanksgiving greetings, and christmastime as well and we have more for you. a colorado soldier coming home to surprise his children at their school. they had no idea that he was coming. and he was crying before he ever even made it inside. listen. obviously he teared up there andrew moreno's kids were at the front of the class reading a book about a soldier when their father walked in. oh, my goodness, if you don't have chills well then i don't know what is wrong, because they looked up, the two ran across the room and into his arms. moreno said it was the moment he had been waiting for for 400 days. >> it's something to think about every day while you're gone, and it's the -- it's what gets you through the next day, and the day after that. thank you guys so much for letting us surprise them and for everything that you've done for my family, and my kids, since we've been gone. >> are you going to stay home forever from now on? >> i think so. i would like to. in my opinion they are the two heroes. the mothers, the fathers that stay behind, the kids. julie: wow, and there are thousands more children like that who have their parents fighting for this country, many of whom will never see their parents again. the day was set up by a family friend by the way. moreno's entire family were at the school when he arrived. the kids were the only ones that didn't actually know about the incredible surprise. it really does bring tears to your eyes to see these children who really don't comprehend exactly what their parents are doing, they just know their parents are not home. rick: their parents are heros, i'm glad they are all going to be together, those families who have loved ones coming home. after a quick break. congress up against a brand-new deadline. it seems we have one deadline after another here. this one is to save billions in jobless benefits and tax cuts as well. what happens if they can't get a deal done? our panel weighs in coming up next. julie: new developments in the search for this little girl, missing baby girl lisa irwin. the police are shutting down a command post that was set up to investigate their disappearance. rick: a recovery effort is underway for victims of a small plane crash in phoenix, r-r is. a lead investigator will join us live with an update from the scene. >> we have a total of ten deputies who are on scene since midnight last night that camped out because of the darkness and the rugged terrain it had become unsafe for our search and rescue. a body at rest tends to stay at rest... while a body in motion tends to stay in motion. staying active can actually se arthritis symptoms. but if you have arthritis, staying active can be difficult. prescription celebrex can help relieve arthritis pain so your body can stay in motion. because just one 200mg celebrex a day can provide 24 hour relief for many with arthritis pain and inflammatio plus, in clinical studies, celebrex is proven to improve daily physical function so moving is easier. a celebrex is not a narcotic. when it comes to relieving your arthritis pain, you and your doctor need to balance the benefits with the risks. all prescription nsaids, like celebrex, ibuprofen, naen, and melocam have the same cardiovascar warning. they all may increase the chance of heart attack or stroke, which can lead to death. this chance increases if you have heart dease or risk factors such as high blo pressure or when nsaids are taken for long periods. nsaids, including celebrex, increase the chance of serious skin or allergic reactions or stomach anintestine problems, such as bleeding and ulcers, which can occur without warning and may cause death. patients also taking aspirin and the elderly are at increased risk for stomach bleeding and ulcers. do not take celebrex if you'v had an asthma attack, hives, oother allergies to aspirin, nsaids or sulfonamides. get help right away if you have swelling of the face or throat, or trouble breathing. tell your doctor your medical history and find an arthritis treatment for you. visit celebrex.com and ask your doctor about celebrex. for a body in motion. julie: a fox news alert. authorities have recovered the body of a child from the wreckage of a small plane crash in arizona. one of six people killed when the aircraft slammed into a sheer cliff. surveillance video captured the crash as it happened. it's a massive fireball as the plane hits the mountain. there were three men and three children onboard. a pie lot and mechanic included in the group. kid between the ages much 5-9 years old were killed. the plane hit the cliff at 200 miles an hour. witnesses say they could hear the explosion. >> i looked up and saw this fireball and it rows up. then boom, that's when it spread whatever fuel and everything all over the place. >> where the fireball was and the debris was strewn and the fire was burning. it didn't look like anybody could survive something like that. julie: joining me is the sheriff from pinal county. it's assumed no one could have survived his crash? >> we express our deep sympathy to the friends and family and the victims of the crash. certainly no person could survive this mountainside crash and explosion it's a mountainous area. we had to repel to insert parts of it. it's a-hour hike to get to the top of this mountain and we have been using helicopters to transport my deputies and our fast-responding search and rescue team. julie: preliminary reports indicate the plane was on its way to pick up children for the holiday. it was heading back to arizona when it slammed into the peak. i can't imagine how difficult it is. so far on one has been found, is that correct? have you * we have other information at this time we'll release shortly. but notification of family needs to take place first. and in this crash that clearly nobody could have survived, and the dad and another pilot were picking up the three small children to spend thanksgiving with their dad. and it's just heartbreaking for all of us. our deputies and our identification techs are using the utmost respect and dignity in the recovery of the human remains. julie: it's defend devastating. and our prayers as well. it seems that you have discovered more bodies and you have to go through the grave task of informing their loved ones on thanksgiving. i can't even imagine. >> i was with the mom of the three children late this morning, and it's just heartbreaking for her. and i'll be seeing her shortly again. and just terrible. so keep her and all affected in your prayers. julie: we certainly about. sheriff babeu, thank you very much. rick: we are going to talk about politics and the super committee's failure recently raising the stakes in washington, putting extra presre on the congress to save billions of dollars in jobless benefits and tax cuts that are set to expire at the end of the year. with time running out can congress deliver? let's bring in our panel. gentlemen, good to see you both. happy thanksgiving. who has more to lose if a deal is not reached in the republicans or the democrats? >> i think the pressure is on the republicans to come to a deal with president obama in extending the payroll tax cut and unemployment benefits. president obama laid down the gauntlet. i think this is going to be extend. i don't think there will be much of a fight. you are going into christmastime and entering an election year and there is a lot of political posturing. republicans want to make sure this is paid for. and they would like to see businesses receive this payroll tax cut because that's what creates jobs. everyone knows the payroll tax cut doesn't help the economy but it does help people. rick: doug, let's say you are advising the democrats, how do you tell them to play their hand. >> ron made the essential point that the republicans have to cave. you put the heat on the republicans. the one thing i would urge the president to do that he hasn't done is use the opportunity that he has to talk about the payroll tax cut and extension of unemployment insurance to go big, to talk about a bigger deal, to try to pick up where the super committee failed. because it's not enough to say that didn't work so we'll go on to something else. we have entrenched even demic fiscal problems. we are in the holiday season, we should use some of the goodwill and cheer to try to address those issues as well. rick: this will come down to tax, revenue, i guess the word is the word lawmakers like to use. this is a debate about raising taxes. >> doug is right. they should go big. they can there needs to be sweeteners to get something done. it does boil down to revenue. republicans want to see this tax cut paid for and that's important, and they are trying to show fiscal responsibility. the president is using this as a political weapon. republicans see that and they will make sure to agree with them and take that weapon away as we go on the campaign trail in 2012. rick: the democrats keep talking about raising the taxes on the wealthiest americans. they must have research that shows the american people are in favor of this. >> the problem is it's only part of the story. there is not enough revenue in taxing the rich to soft problem. what we need is comprehensive tax reform. pat toomey took a small step in the right direction by indicating the republicans would raise revenue. but we need to restorm corporate and individual income taxes and get rid of some of the exceptions and change the tax code so we raise the revenue so we can get on the path to a balanced budget. that wraps we need to head and neither party is going in that direction. rick: i want to end on a holiday note. what would make each of you thankful if our government would do it? ron, you first. >> i would love to see president bush's tax cuts extended that we keep the march jirnal rates the same. i would like to see the super committee deal resurrected so we could cut spending in a positive way and not go to the end of the year in a negative light as we enter the campaign. rick: doug, your turn? >> for the democrats and republicans to come together and say bowle simpson is a plan to begin negotiating in ernest a balanced budget plan to reduce the deficit and promote economic growth. rick: thanks very much, gentlemen. julie: black friday on the move. shoppers getting ready for the big night as big stores, big-name stores will open their doors nearly 12 hours early. but it's not signature well with everyone. how can you get a step up on those early birds? your black friday survival guide coming up. rick: we have new clues in the search for a missing mother of 3. what police say could be a clue into finding out what happened. >> i love you so much. we are going to find you. name there. we are going to get you. we are not ever going to quit, ever. i habe a cohd. yeah, i toog nyguil bud i'm stild stubbed up. [ male announcer ] truth is, nyquil doesn't un-stuff your nose. really? [ male announcer ] alka-seltzer plus liquid gels fights your worst cold symptoms, plus it relieves your stuffy nose. [ deep breath ] thank you! that's the cold truth! or a can of paint, you turned millions of votes, and hundreds of volunteer hours, into a real difference for over 100,000 people. what's next? tell us on facebook. it's easy to see what subaru owners care about. that's why we created the share the love event. get a great deal on a new subaru and $250 gs to your choice of 5 charities. with your help, we can reach $20 million dollars by the end of this, our fourth year. it's a melt in your mouth kind of experience. 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[ male announcer ] medicare open enrollment ends soon. cal1-800-medice or visit medica.gov to learn re. rick: new developments to tell you about in the case of missing baby lisa irwin. police are scaling back, shuting down a command post. they say they need to work on other cases. but they are continue to look for the baby. julie: michelle parker, a missing florida mom, they say the cross necklace could turn up clues to where she is. chris broslin's company handles cases like this. how may this cross necklace lead police to to kind of tips? >> any time there is jewelry that's unique it helps as an identifier. somebody sees the necklace, they may not notice the mom the, they will say i have seen that necklace it was on a lady in this part of orlando. but it's an odd case. julie: let's talk about the ex-boyfriend, the ex-fiance. the man she was fighting about over an engagement ring on the people's court. after the taped episode she turns up missing. we are getting more information about his background. he was in the military and record show he was dishonorably discharged. and record from the pentagon show he was court margsd and several charges including domestic battery and drug possession. i'm no detective but what are you thinking when you hear this? >> you are enough a detective to know that's where the case starts and may end. you have dale smith not only was he convicted of drug possession in 2003, but also domestic battery. but to compound it in 2009, michelle petitions the court for a temporary order of protection. in regards to violence he perpetrated against her. she petitioned the court in '09. she has a violent ex-marine with a history of spousal battery. julie: and he was the last one to see her alive when she dropped the twins off at his house. why haven't the police given him a polygraph. >> no clue. julie: any information from the polygraph test could potentially lead to their whereabouts. >> what's important is what dale was doing from the time she was last seen dropping the twins thursday the 17th to his residence. he's the biological dad. we want to know where he went, who called, who called him, who interacted with on the internet and where was his phone when it was powered on. the gps. where was he. julie: her iphone is mission and has been since thursday when a text message was sent from her phone. it's conveniently missing. >> and i think the waterford estate area of orlando. a decoy text may have went out from there. there is no independent corroborative evidence to support that she was in that area. that may have been a text to do this. a little misdirection. julie: they have no tips at this point. thank you very much. rick: coming up next, a new warning for those of you who may be suffering from a cold or a headache perhaps. what you need to know before you reach for the acetaminophen. julie: the inauguration of lyndon b. june on marked a turning point in american history. now historians are shedding light on the mystery from that day that has been puzzling them for decades. but first a thanksgiving message from our troops. >> i'm in southwest asia. i want to give a big shoutout to all my friends and family in kentucky. especially my kids. dad misses you and can't wait to get home to you. i'll see you soon. my family, have a very, very happy thanksgiving. eat lots for me. bye-bye. ♪ ♪ ♪ mom? dad? guys? [ engine turns over ] [ engine revs ] ♪ he'll be fine. [ male announcer ] more people are leaving bmw, mercedes, and lexus for audi than ever before. take advantage of exceptional values during the season of audi event. rick: a warning about acetaminophen, the main ingredient in tylenol. if you take it correctly there is no problem but if you up the amount, it could be dangerous and potentially deadly. people might be eating or drink more than usual and tomorrow they wake up and think i'm going to take some tylenol. >> or they are getting out on a plane and they think i'm going have a lot of pain. this is scary stuff. acetaminophen is the number one calls of acute liver fail newer the united states and it causes 450 deaths per year. half of them are accidental. but i monday the extental ones. if they take more than 4 grams, they can actually have an overdose. the problem is they don't know it because they will say i'm nauseous, i'm vomiting, you could be out of sorts. you don't know those symptoms are from an he seed min even --m an aseat overdose. rick: let's say you take regular strength versus extra strength. you have to count. you said 4 grams. how many pills should you be taking. >> extra strength is usually one gram. normal dose is 325 milligrams. three this to one gram. four grams would be four times the 1 gram. it's easy to get carried away. there is even a percentage taking less than that that get into trouble if they are drinking alcohol or have a predisposition for this problem. so you have to be careful, especially when you gets up around the 4-gram range. rick: if you take it properly it's okay. it's when you don't take the properly. >> i don't think you should take it every day. if you go to the emergency room and you get treated with charcoal. within 8 hours you can be saved from this. rick: dr. marc siegel, a member of the fox medical a-team. happy thanksgiving. julie, over to you. julie: an egyptian court ordering the release of three american students being held in cairo. we'll talk to one of the mothers about the release and how she says her son was treated while in custody. rick: black friday shoppers do you have to be the first in line to get a good deal? >> it's a tradition. every year we come out. we love it. it's the hype trying to be the first one in line, and hero 8. >> reporter: how many years? >> probably the last 7 years. ♪ ♪ ♪ [ male announcer ] everyone deserves the gift of a pain free holiday. this season, discover aleve. all day pain relief with just two pills. the pioneers. the aviators. building superhighways in an unknown sky. their safety systems built of brain and heart, transforming strange names from tall tales into pictures on postcards home. and the ones who followed them, who skimmed the edge of space, the edge of heaven, the edge of dreams. and we follow them up there to live by an unbreakable promise, stitched into every uniform of every captain who takes their command: to fly. to serve. vietnam, 1967. i got mine in iraq, 2003. u.s.a.a. autonsurance is often handed down from generation to generation, because it offers a superior level of protection and because u.s.a.a.'s commitment to serve the military, veterans, and their families is without equal. ben your lega. get an auto insurance quote. u.s.a.a. we know what it means to serve. julie: three american college students could soon be headed home from egypt. welcome to a new hour of "america live." rick: gregory porter from drexel universities. luke gates, indiana universities and derek sweeney from georgetown universities. there they are. officials? egypt say they will be released after a ruling from the local court. the boys all studying abroad arrested on the streets of egypt's capital city in the middle of those violent rallies that claimed 40 lives. reena ninan is live in jerusalem are more. >> reporter: you might call this a thanksgiving miracle. earlier today egyptian police said they were going to hang on to them for 3, 4 or 5 more days. but an egyptian court has ordered their release. we are waiting to hear whether it has happened. as you mentioned, those boys, derek sweeney, luke gates and gregory porter, they were on a study abroad program at the university of cairo when they were detained by police who alleged they were hurling fire bombs. egyptian authorities decided not to press any charges. one of the mothers called the expected release the best thanksgiving gift she has received and hoped her son would put a life lesson learning experience tennessee a positive story. it's likely they will receive a medical evaluation. go to the police station to process paperwork and hopefully be released to go back to their dorms. it's not clear if they will be able to head home tomorrow for they can't find their passports it might not be until monday. but we are looking forward to that interview with the mother of one of those students. require will be reena ninan live for us. their parents overwhelmed with worry as you can imagine. as reena just said we'll stalk with the mother of one of those boys live just ahead on "america live." julie: amateur video out of yemen showing a crowd of protesters unfire. you can hear the gunshots. you can see the people run and bullets were fired. there are reports today at least five people were killed in yemen when security forces fired on those protesters. the chaos one day after the president agreed the hand overpoweru to his vice president. the protesters want him put on trial for past crimes. rick: a gruesome discovery at the scene of the and american games in mexico where 20 bodies were found. they were in three abandoned vehicles left by the millennium arches. another horrific scene in another mexican city, this one home to a major drug cartel. 16 bodies discovered in two burnt out pickup trucks there. investigators believer at least three of the victims may have been police officers recently kidnapped in the area. >> this is always one of the busiest days of the year. on the roads, in the airports. this year is no exception thanks to pretty wicked weather. airports were jammed like here in denver. and a winter storm hits the northeast delaying flights on thanksgiving eve. also heavy rain may have slowed traffic by it didn't keep drivers off the roads. people are choosing family or true galt. travel is up 4%. 42.5 million is nowhere near the 59 million we saw in 2005. so we are improving but we have a long way to go. >> we got delayed 20 minutes because of the weather. now i have to wait until tomorrow morning to fly out. >> it's great. it many kind of scary at first. >> i thought it would be a lot worse, actually. it's not bad right now. julie: they seemed pretty positive. conditions are bet in the northeast, chilly but rain and snow is in the forecast out west. maria are things looking better? >> reporter: the storm system long gone and a much nicer day behind us. we are look at sunshine and that should allow snowfall that did fall over parts of new england to melt today as the temperatures are warming above the freezing mark across new england. we looked at accumulations of 6-8 inches of snow. otherwise today temperatures in the 40s. and 53 will be the high in new york city. as we head southbound we did start off on the cool side with temperatures rebound nicely. a lot of sunshine across the south with temperatures crawling back up into the 60s and 70s. as you head into the midwest temperatures are up 20 degrees above what's normal. a nice thanksgiving gift with sunshine. but outwest we have a lot of unseated weather. it's cold, it's windy. we have rain and know across the highest elevations of the mountains, across california not a whole lot. most of the activity dying down. but here is a stronger storm system bringing in rain from the. and a lot of snow expected for the cascades. we are look at accumulations that we could see a foot of snow out there. rick: i liked maria's turkey traveling on the bottom of the screen. julie: you have got to keep it fun. rick: retailers getting an early start to black friday. many are opening their doors tonight. among them walmart and toys are us. they said they wanted to get customers in earlier because they had lines around the store last year. >> reporter: motivating shoppers with full bellies armed with shopping lists will get a jump on black friday thanks to retailers stuffing more time into the shopping season. chain stores have been push up opening times now for a while. but we tail analysts say 2011 has reached an all-time tipping point. big stores getting a jump on the spending season include kohl's, macy's, best buy and targets. walmart opening as the 10:00. the earliest of all, toys are us opening as the 9:00 p.m. tonight. the toy store ceo says it's due to customer demand. view from the customers choose they can finish all their holiday shopping then go home and go to sleep. >> reporter: for some retail workers thanksgiving day and christmas day are usually the only days of guaranteed time off. an online petition by target employees called on target to push back its opening time. but target isn't budging. a spokesperson says their customers have told them they want to shop following their thanksgiving day celebrations and hourly employees will be given holiday pay for thanksgiving duty. according to shopping survey 152 million people plan to shop black friday weekend and that's us from 10% from last year. a lot of people ready to shop and spend. rick: happy shopping to you, laura. julie: he says american can overcome the stalemate in warn. is president obama offering an olive branch to break the gridlock and what will that olive branch be? rick: he's charged with 40 counts of child sex abuse, now there are brand-new allegations against former penn state coach jerry sandusky. julie: 0 lawmakers want ... >> i'm serving:the 117 squadron in afghanistan. i want to send a warm happy thanksgiving to my family, wife, and two kids, back in fayetteville, north carolina. [ nadine ] buzzzz, bzzzz, bzzzz, bzzzz, you know, typical alarm clock. i am so glad to get rid of it. just to be able to wake up in the morning on your own. that's a big accomplishment to me. i don't know how much money i need. but i know that whatever i have that's what i'm going to live within. ♪ ♪ so i wasn't playing much of a role in my own life, but with advair, i'm breathing better so now i can take the lead on a science adventure. advair is clinically proven to help significantly improve lung function. unlike most copd medications, advair contains both an anti-inflammatory and a long-acting bronchodilator, workintogether to help improve ur lung function all day. advair won't replace fast-acting inhalersor sudden symptoms and should not be used more than twice a day people with copd taking advair may have a higher chance of pneumonia advair may increase your risk of osteoporosis and some eye problems. tell your doctor if you have a heart condition or high blood pressure before taking advair. if you're still having difficulty breathing, take the lead. ask your doctor if incling advair get your first fl prescription free and save on refills at advaircopd.com. [ knock on door ] coo you found it. wow. nice place. ye. [ chuckles ] the family thinks i'm out shipping these. smooth move. you used priority mail flat rate boxes. if it fits, it ships for a low, flat rate. paid for postagenline and arranged a free pickup. and i'm gonna track them online, too. nice. between those boxes and this place, i'm totally stayinsane this year. do i smell snickerdoodles? maybe. [ timer dings ] got to go. priority mail fla rate shipping at usps.com. a simpler way to ship. rick: a fox news alert. congresswoman gabrielle giffords serving a thanksgiving meal to montana military members in her hometown tucson, arizona. they are at the air force base. you can see her wearing a baseball cap and apron with her nickname gabby sewn on the apron. she has been undergoing intensive rehabilitation as she recovers from a gunshot wound to the head after that shooting earlier this year in january. julie: the president with a message for americans and lawmakers. are you listening? he hopes the holiday spirit of giving will ease gridlock and bring unity to washington in these tough economic times. >> the problems didn't develop overnight and we won't solve them overnight. all it takes is for each us to do our part. with all the part sarn shipts's easy to wonder if such unity is possible. we'll overcome the challenges of our time. julie: gentleman mu green joins us now. gentlemanner to sharing parts of your holiday with us. what is it like in an ideal world think democrats and republicans will carry forth the spirits of the holiday, the president's message when they return washington. is unity possible? >> absolutely. in america we are so resilient as a country. no matter how divide we are it is possible for to us come together. i think ideally if president obama could bottle the spirit of thanksgiving and pull it out and sprinkle a little bit around as we get into some of these negotiations, that can't happen. he can't sign an executive order extending the spirits of sunnity and everything we are celebrating today. but there are some things he can do. i listen to his weekly radio addresses and i always wonder, how many other americans are paying attention to this radio address. how many of them get this message. i think ideally we would hear more of what the president said in his remarks. heading into thanksgiving. we would hear more of that through other means. whether it's social media as you put on television. but one thing that's so important for this president to be able to indicate that we can come together as a country is to show the american people in a very transparents way how he and the detractors who disagree with him how they can sit down and have a conversation if we can show the real sacrifice of the military families that would do more to bring us together because there is a common cause we all share that is really apparent when you look at the facts of our military. julie: when you look at the programs that are trying to help. extensions to unemployment insurance and payroll tax cuts are expected to run out by the year's end. it will cost $200 billion to keep them going. this is a crisis. do you think congress is listening and can they find a way to save these programs before it's too late? >> they can find a way to save those programs. the reality is will they? looking at the failure of the super committee it does make it hard to believe that progress can be made inside the beltway. i think that sense is trickling down and creating the negative attitude and frustration amongst americans. but if congress could get out of their own way and stop making the types of political calculations that basically decide everything -- awful their decisions, make it in the best interest of the american people and those struggling versus on who is going on on the ballot in november. that is something americans are craving to see. a member of congress, the president, all of our polite calculate leaders put policy before partisanship. put policy and the american people before your ideology and before your campaign. that is something all of our political leaders should do a better job with. julie: jamu green, thank you very much. rick: three american student arrested in cairo, egypt have been ordered freed by the government. what are they accused of? we'll talk to the mother of one of those young men coming up. julie: how you can jump on those early bird shoppers next. >> we are looking for the 42-inch tv which is going to be for $199. >> i'm a college student and i'm taking a break and i still have my mom and dad so i don't need to worry about that. just one phillips' colon health probiotic cap a day helps defends against occasional constipation, diarrhea, gas and bloating. with the strains of good bacteria to help balance your colon. you had me at "probiotic." [ female announcer ] phillips' colon health. rick: three american student arrested in egypt are soon going free. they were tang into custody sunday near a very square, accused of throwing homemade bombs sat security forces who were at the time fighting with protesters in the square. but this morning a court in egypt ordering their release. they are expected to head home very soon. one of the boy's mother is joining us. joy sweeney. i can't imagine a better thanksgiving day call to get. >> we were going back and forth with emails. we got an unconfirmed email that the boys were free and the prosecuting attorney was not going to appeal the case. he was going to accept the judgment ruling. that happened around 5:00 and 5:30. by by 6:00 a.m. this morning was able to get through and confirm with him that the three boys had been released and the court ordered them released. we were absolutely elated. couldn't be happier at the moment. bouncing after the walls. rick: you smoke hour son yesterday before this was announced. >> yesterday was before the 8 hours interrogation they had to go through. rick: how did he say he was being treated? >> he was hesitant. he said they fed him and they were treating him okay. we know they were trying to keep them as safe as possible. all three boys were being kept together. that was comforting to know they weren't being isolated or tortured. it wasn't posh accommodations in a hotel. but it was what it was. require * you also asked him about what he was alleged to have done. what did he say about that? >> he said he hadn't done anything, none of them had. and i misspoke yesterday a couple times about something on the roof. and i asked him if they threw anything off a roof, not if they were on a roof. that was a misspeak on my part. being new to this whole media circus. rick: your son went to egypt this last august. well after the unrest of last spring. i wonder if you had any reservations about him going there. >> in light of the circumstances of course. i possibly should have been more concerned. but i didn't -- i -- i have my oldest son in afghanistan. my older daughter is in paris going to school, grad school, and derrik is in cairo. and my youngest daughter here, i have four kids on four continents. and of the danger, it's not even the highest danger. rick: what have you been told about a time line for when he might be coming home? >> this answer is not as jubilant i have given to other people. within the last probably 15 minutes, i just spoke to the attorney general roberto powers and we were given disappointing news. we thought they would be released from the police station today, taken to their dorm rooms and allowed to today they are their belongings and maybe sleep there and go to the airport. however, that is not going to transpire according to mr. powers. the boys -- there is some legal paperwork, the national defense department has to check off some paperwork. 8:30-9 time at night. that's not going to happen tonight. and immigration needs to process paperwork. the chief of police cannot release the boys until those two items are taken care of. and so -- it will be a few more days. rick: we'll all keep you and your family in our thoughts. >> we are so grateful they are going to be released. the order is signed and processed. that's good. rick: your oldest in afghanistan is he active military? >> no, he's work for north republic. but he moms d working for northrop. but he's not with the navy. rick: jill sweeney whose son, one of three americans how it's announced will be released from custody in egypt. happy thanksgiving to you. julie: a plan to turn al qaeda suspects caught in the u.s. over to the military instead of the criminal justice system. but the obama administration saying that could cause major issues. rick: a break-in goes wrong for one suspect because of this little girl. wait until you hear how she helped the police. >> i got really scared because i heard a noise and i didn't know what it was. i saw the guy extending there and ian didn't know that guy. p . a new belt. some nylons. and what girl wouldn't need new shoes? we talked about getting a diamond. but with all the thank you points i've been earning... ♪ ...i flew us to the rock i really had in mind. ♪ [ male announcer ] the citi thank you card. earn points you can use for travel on any airline, with no blackout dates. have given way to sleeping. where sleepless nights yield to restful sleep. and lunesta can help you get there, like it has for so many people before. when taking lunesta, don't drive or operate machinery until you feel fully awake. walking, eating, driving, or engaging in other activities while asleep, without remembering it the next day, have been reported. abnormal behaviors may include aggressiveness, agitation, hallucinations or confusion. in depressed patients, worsening of depression, including risk of suicide, may occur. alcohol may increase these risks. allergic reactions, such as tongue or throat swelling, occur rarely and may be fatal. side effects may include unpleasant taste, headache, dizziness and morning drowsiness. ask your doctor if lunesta is right for you. then get lunesta for $0 at lunesta.com. there's a land of restful sleep. we can help you go there on the wings of lunesta. rick: there is a growing debate in washington on how to deal with foreign terror suspects caught near the united states. calling for them to be turned over to the military instead of civilian law enforcement. but the white house says that would jeopardize counter-terrorism investigations. lieutenant colonel tony shaffer is the author of a book called "operation dark heart." this is the senate armed services committee. not the full senate. but that committee that signed off on this. what are they saying? >> they are saying you have got to find a path forward to bring justice to the detainees, combatants, whatever want to call them. the answer in their view is not putting them into the civil criminal system. and frankly there is precedence for this. during world war ii an operation called pastorias. the germans sent nazis onto our shores and the decision then was to have them tried before a military tribunal. none of the investigative value was lost in that prosecution. rick will be let me tell what you someone from the justice department is saying. the administration doesn't like this. this is a woman named lisa monaco. she says if this were to become law, agents and prosecutors would have to worry about citizenship status, they would have to worry about getting special waivers signed by the secretary of defense rather than doing what they need to do to stop a potential terror threat. what do you say to that? >> apples and oranges. you are trying to bring people to justice as quickly as possible with an ultimate outcome that protects u.s. citizens. any time you bring criminal defendants into a civil system, in this argument of the magnitude of paperwork is spurious. they are in business to prosecute people to find a way to make it happen. they are making excuses and showing their own incompetence by not being able toy find a path forward. we have been dealing with this for the past 10 years. rick: this is something that right now in the committee has bipartisan support. but the presidenten to the like it and the president can veto this. and there is a threat, is there not, if he vetoes the entire defense bill, this is just a small part of it, but a veto would have a wide ranging effect, wouldn't it? >> it would. this is where the with it house is taking a short view of this. one of the things we need to do is understand this is a war not on of violence but of images and con septs. e idea of bringing these guys to justice as quickly as possible shows allah is not on their side. we need to diminish the imagery thing in their mind. the president threatening to veto this over something that technically and militarily and operationally is the best thing to do doesn't make sense in my judgment. rick: the book is called "operation dark heart." thank you, tony. gel * thanksgiving even in the war zone as troops get a traditional turkey dinner. this will be their last thanksgiving in iraq. with u.s. forces set to leave the country by the end of this year. dominic? >> you kind of wonder what thanks one could give in a conflict zone like iraq. today we had 7 people killed down in the city of basra. and 70 people injured. but soldiers here and in baghdad and across the country preparing to leave by the end of the year. they say they have thanks to give that finally u.s. troops are leaving and many of the pro -- soy asked hem when i went out to see them today if this thanksgiving has any more significance than others they spent here or back home. this what is they had to say. >> absolutely. i hope no one else has to spend thanksgiving here away from their families. >> this is my first thanksgiving and hopefully my last. >> it has a great significance as far as completing the mission. and future success of this country. >> going home to our loved ones. it means a lot they are doing a celebration for us. but for most of us, i have four days left here. so it's awesome. >> reporter: you a tsunamis the buzz word. the incredible effort the u.s. military is nught to get the last remaining troops out of here. this year they had 45,000 consistently throughout. and 20,000 to get out of the country by the end of the year. a lot of people getting home in time for christmas. still a lot of people to get out. they are trying to do it by land and air and hopefully they could be home roughly around the 5th orth of december. they are heading home, back to you, julie. rick: a 9-year-old girl busting a burglar. coming face to face with a would-be thief. now police are calling her a hero. >> i got really scared. i heard a noise and i didn't flow what it was. >> reporter: but she didn't act scared when she came face to face with a burglar. >> i saw the guy standing there. i said don't know that guy. >> reporter: she was home sick from school. it was the middle of the afternoon. her mom just left, her dad was on his way. he got in through this unlocked basement door. >> she gave a phenomenal description of the guy that led officers to get him within 5 minutes they had him under arrest. >> reporter: even the mom admits she wouldn't have handle it as well. >> i wouldn't have had that accurate a description of him. >> reporter: mom and dad wouldn't be more proud of this pint size crime fighter. >> she was unbelievable. rick: kids are very observant. julie: the dishes are washed, the turkeys are in the tupperware. now it's off to the mall. what you need to know to be the ultimate warrior on black friday. >> i'm here in afghanistan. i would like to send a shoutout to my fiance, friends and family back in arlington, virginia. turs and here's what we did today: supported nearly 3 million steady jobs across our country... ... scientists, technicians, engineers, machinists... ... adding nearly 400 billion dollars to our economy... we're at work providing power to almost a quarter of our homes and businesses... ... and giving us cleaner rides to work and school... and tomorrow, we could do even more. cleaner, domestic, abundant and creating jobs now. we're america's natural gas. the smarter power, today. learn more at anga.us. but my nose is still runny. 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[ male announcer ] yes, it is. that's the cold truth! time is running out to select ur medicare coverage. the annual enrollment period ends wednesday, december 7th. so call now to enroll in a plan that could give you the benefits and stability you're looking for, an aarp medicarecomplete plan insured through unitedhealthcare. what makes it complete? this plan combines medicare parts a and b which is your hospital and doctor coverage with part d prescription drug coverage, and more, all in one simple plan starting at a zero dollar monthly premium, beyond what you pay for medicare part b. this plan offers you benefits like an annual physical, preventive screenings, and immunizations for a $0 copay. you'll also have the flexibility to change doctors from a network of providers dedicated to helping you stay healthy. there's more. when you enroll in an aarp medicarecomplete plan insured through unitedhealthcare, your benefits could also include vision and hearing coverage, and prescription drug coverage that's accepted at pharmacies nationwide. the pharmacy saver program makes prescriptions available for as little at $2 at thousands of pharmacies. unitedhealthcare has worked with these pharmacies to get low costs for our members. enroll today and enjoy advantages like these for as low as a zero dollar monthly premium, beyond what you pay for medicare part b. now is the time to look at your options and enroll. start getting the benefits of an aarp medicarecomplete plan insured through unitedhealthcare. but you need to act now. annual enrollment ends wednesday, december 7th. call unitedhealthcare today about an aarp medicarecomplete plan. you can even enroll right over the phone. or visit us on the web. don't wait. call now. rick: they could be the most disturbing allegations yet against jerry sandusky. reports of two more cases being investigated. one of them stems from accusations made by a member of the sandusky family. former prosecutors join us now. this story gets worse every day. a family member how one of the alleged victims. >> it does get worse every day but it does not surprise us. we suspected the charges with expand and there would be new victims coming forward. but i think the big question on everyone's mind is jerry sandusky is enjoying a delicious thanksgiving dinner with his family, why is he free? he has been charged with 33 felonies. some of these are considered class-a felonies in new york state. many times judges when a defendant has committed such horrible acts. they will deny bail all together and remands them to jail or settle bail really high. the most disturbing part is the initial judge who denied the prosecution's request for high bail and denied the prosecution's request that he wear an ankle bracelets has ties to his charity. rick: i want to ask you about these new allegations that came to light because of sandusky's own attorney who told a reporter it was a member of sandusky's family that is one of the new alleged victims. why would a defense attorney make that information available? >> i don't know if i have a good answer to that. the issue for him is he should not have come out and made any statements with regards to those allegations until they were made public knowledge. he is not putting his clients in a good light at this point. and he's creating an environment for the defendant to look even worse than he does now. and he cannot assume at this point that these criminal charges are going to be brought forward. by putting this information forward he's putting this client in a worse situation. so it's difficult for me to be able to defend his actions in this case. rick: now to the point masa made, that he should not be out on bail. we have a court hearing coming up in the middle of december. what happens at that court appearance december 13 when every sandusky walks into a wort room in. >> if these victims are found to be credible and new charges are filed he can get rearrested based on these addition ago counts as the which time there would be a new bail hearing, and this judge has no ties to penn state unlike the last one. this judge will have three choices. keep the bail the same, make it higher or remand him. in light of the fact that the circumstances have changed, they are more serious. we have victims that are children that have come forward. i think he should enjoy thanksgiving with his family because it's about to most likely be locked up. >> i agree with that. the facts is that these new charges are very important. and will necessarily almost increase the bail to a point where he may not be able to make it which his defense attorney concede will likely be the case. what we have now if these allegations have merit fan they go forward these new charges, we now have children and we now have recentsy. they are not old cases any more. it there alert the judge and the public that this man is a continuing danger. i don't see a remand. but i do see the bail being increased to a point where he probably will not be able to post it. rick: a time line here. unless there is some kind of a guilty plea and right now he maintained his innocence, and this thing goes to trial, this is going to be one of those trials that everybody is going to be paying close attention to. how long until we get from here to there? >> i think the wheels of justice are slow. i would say a year to two years. it will take a while. rick: a year to two years before we get this in a courtroom? >> i don't think it will be quite that long. there will and lot of pressure on the prosecutors to move this case quickly. there have been delays in this case because of the government's failure to move forward. there have been years that passed before the first victim made claims as to sandusky's abuse. if the prosecutor takes the step of slowing this down i think the public will become outraged. my opinion is this case is going to move and it will move quickly. rick: the more quickly the better as far as the coast public opinion is concerned. the alleged victims in this case, some of them are now adult. but i can't imagine any of them wants to go testify and have television cameras in a courtroom that would be carrying their testimony and their pictures live. would there be some way to shield the identity of these young alleged victims to protect them during the trial? >> i think there definitely is more of a chance of that happening with the victims that are currently children. i think just this past week the district judge did seal the court document that contained the name of the alleged victims because they didn't want the public to have that information. rick: is that a big deal? can you imagine that when it goes to trial, even if the victim is in his early 20s, i would imagine they would want their privacy intact. >> absolutely. but we have competing interests which are of incredible value in our system. one is to protect the victim and the other is to make sure that the defendant has his day in court. nobody is guilty until they are proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. so the defendant will be even -- will be entitled to cross examine the witnesses against him. but the ones that are no longer children, less likely. require rsh thank you to you both. julie: you don't have to deal with the big crowds to get the best deals. how you can avoid the mall and gets the best bargains before everybody else. we'll tell you how. diabetes testing? it's all the same. nothing changes. then try this. freestyle lite® blood glucose test strip. sure, but it's not gonna-- [beep] wow. yep, that's the patented freestyle zipwik™ design. did it just-- [both] target the blood? yeah, drew it right in. the test starts fast. you need just a third the blood of one touch.® that is different. so freestyle lite , freestyle lite test strips. call or click today. julie: some big name stores getting a jumpstart on black friday opening their doors today and bargain hunters camping out for great deals. plus cyber monday, the big day for online shopping a few days away. how can you get the best bang for your buck with the least shopping stress? larry is a tech expert and coo of dyna-links communication. we have a lot of competition. 152 million people across the country expected some to hit the stores tonight. do you need to jump in at 3:00 a.m. this morning or tomorrow morning to gets the best deal or can you wait until tomorrow? what's the secret? >> there is no special secret. the great thing is technology is pushing the marketplace. so you can go on the internet today, tomorrow. i believe i will have a little bit of extra special sales maybe today but throughout the whole holiday season you will see incredible sales. last year you saw a billion dollars on what we called cyber monday. 30% of people have gone to shop online. this will be double this year online than it was last year because we saw google third quarter sales up 30 per. the retailers are doing huge advertising online. you can go online right now and go ahead and start shopping and you don't have to wait for the stores to open. julie: going online instead of sitting in line. but a lot of people are willing to stand in them for good deals. if you are going to do it, do it right. make a list and stick to it. >> absolutely. the great thing about technology driving the marketplace again is if you go into the store there are apps on your smartphone that you scan the bar code on the item and it will tell you if the store next door to that store has a better price on the same item. so you could also go into malls. there is a thing called fast mall where the app tells you where everything in the mall is. where you parked your car. old adage that battle is won before it's fought can be done through technology. these smart apps is incredible. i think this is going to drive sales. julie: there are web sites frugal.com and bing.com. there is always a better deal out there. >> twitter and facebook is -- amazing. your favorite stores where you can go to their web sites and if you follow their twitter and facebook pages, it will tell you, hey, come to the store now in the next half-hour and you get 20% off or go on line with xyz code and you get x amount off. so everybody can follow it through their smartphones. a smartphone revolution has pushed the game. julie: reading about this, i thought this was my most interesting angle here. there are a lot of retailers out there that are offering free stuff. who doesn't like free stof stuff. old navy is giving away digital cameras to folks spending $40 or more. j.c. penney is giving away disney snow globes. but you don't want to let that get i off track. >> everybody likes a freebee. but they are very limited. if you want the best deals, starting now online, they will continue online. it will be a cyber year. julie: thank you very much. rick: thanks for joining us today. i'm headed to the new jersey turnpike. make way for me, i'm coming right now. julie: stay safe, and happy holiday. we'll see you tomorrow. if you think tylenol is the pain reliever orthopedic doctors recommend most for arthritis pain, think again. and take aleve. it's the one doctors recommend most for arthritis pain... two pills can last all day. ♪ you noticed! these clothes are too big, so i'm donating them. how'd you do it? 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[ female announcer ] people who choose more whole grain tend to weigh less than those who don't. multigrain cheerios... five whole grains, 110 calories. multigrain cheerios... ♪ fare thee well ♪ farewell ♪ mr. gloom be on your way ♪ ♪ though you haven't any money you can still be bright and sunny ♪ ♪ sing polly wolly doodle all the day ♪ ♪ hah with doctors dregenberg and honeydew. and we're here at the ul labs to demonstrate the do's... and don'ts... of holiday safety. ma ma ma me me. do water your tree every day. don't let your tree get too dry. oh! do make sure your lights have the ul mark. ooh ooh ooh! and don't use worn or damaged lights.