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Analysis and discussion of the day's top stories and compelling issues from Lawrence O'Donnell.
Analysis and discussion of the day's top stories and compelling issues from Lawrence O'Donnell.
rudy giuliani told "politico" today that the trump team wants to rule out-of-bounds about half of what robert mueller wants to discuss the president. quote, we don't want questioning on obstruction. they would have to concede that. robert mueller would not be allowed to ask president trump what he said to james comey about the fbi investigation of michael flynn. james comey says that the president told him, i hope you can see your way clear to letting this go, to letting flynn go. he's a good guy. i hope you can let this go. the only area that the trump team would consider allowing is how donald trump and his campaign interacted with russians during the presidential campaign. a week after reports that trump's personal lawyer michael cohen is willing to testify that donald trump knew about the meeting in trump tower with russians during the campaign
before it occurred. nbc news is reporting today that the special prosecutor now wants to interview someone who helped arrange that meeting. the special prosecutor has requested an interview with the russian pop star who sent e-mails to donald trump jr. to arrange that meeting in trump tower. his american lawyer told nbc news conversations are ongoing about a potential interview and that it is, quote, unclear how this will play out. which, as of tonight, could serve as the headline for the status of everything. still under investigation by the special prosecutor. unclear how this will play out. leading off our discussion now, joyce nance, former special prosecutor. and former counsel to the mayor of new york city and eugene robinson, opinion writer for the washington post. he's an msnbc political analyst. and you are a former federal
document, nothing. if there has been communication about this recently from the mueller team to the giuliani team, we have to believe rudy giuliani's account of that, which is an extremely difficult thing to do. but let's do it for the sake of this discussion. but the truth is we have no idea what communication has been going on. but if the giuliani conditions are what's being communicated to mueller, is there any way for mueller to accept those conditions? >> it really depends on what mueller thinks he needs out of this interview. and of course we don't know all of the cards that he's holding right now. but one thing prosecutors don't do when they need an interview with a witness, they don't negotiate because they have the subpoena power. and it is abundantly clear at least in my judgment that they don't plan on indicting the president because they are seeking this interview. according to giuliani and the president's lawyers, they have
already said he is a subject, not a target. if mueller needs information that giuliani and the other lawyers aren't willing to seed them the authority to ask, they will simply issue a subpoena for the president and then let that run its way through the court process. >> how long would that take through the court process? >> you know, that's a really good question. it would depend on which grand jury they use. they could either go through d.c. or through virginia, which would be the fourth circuit. even if those were treated as emergency appeals, it would stretch on for some time. then it would likely go up to the united states supreme court. they could either decide it or return it in part to the lower court. we could be looking at a process that would stretch out over months. >> that's one of the reasons why republicans are racing as fast as they can to confirm the next supreme court justice, it is the route that joyce just described. but the giuliani game of he wants to testify.
"the new york times" reporting last night as if it was breaking news that there are people in the white house who tell the new york times that the president really wants to talk to the special prosecutor, but it is his lawyers who are reluctant. there is absolutely no way to back that up. we have no idea whether donald trump actually wants to talk to mueller or not. all the indicators are that he's desperately afraid of talking to mueller. >> yeah. he ought to be, i think. if he's not. it is true that donald trump does appear to believe he can talk his way out of anything, just by lying, basically. that would be a really, really bad strategy to take into a meeting with the prosecutors. and that surely is what his lawyers are worried about. i do believe that his lawyers don't want him to go in there and talk. and as to whether, you know, he really wants to do it or really doesn't want to do it, who
knows. it could depend on the day. but as you said at the beginning, if we're taking rudy giuliani's word for this, we are really out on a very slender limb. it's frankly hard to talk about what rudy says because we know that a lot of it, and i think the technical term for it is total crap. i mean, it's just not true. >> let's listen to the way the president's allies are talking about this possible interview publically. let's listen to the way newt gingrich describes the situation. >> i think the president is very unwise to walk into a perjury trap against a group of smart guys who have spent a year's time getting ready to try to kill him. and i think he is not -- no one is smart enough to take on all of mueller's team. >> and of course there is no such thing as a perjury trap. all you have in perjury is
my view would be an admission of guilt, particularly on an obstruction charge, which is why they don't want obstruction as part of the interview. that part i believe. if there is an interview, they don't want any conversation about obstruction. i think it actually points to something that i think i will disagree with joyce on. it is one thing to say he's a subject, that donald trump is a subject of an investigation. subjects can become targets. the fact they have said he's a subject doesn't mean he can become a target, which is the very reason why they don't want him to testify. i think you're absolutely right. this entire political strategy, not legal strategy, but political strategy has been to convince the trump base that there is nothing they should be concerned about in terms of trump's behavior. here is the question i would ask anyone without regard to political affiliation. if you have nothing to hide, you cooperate. this is not cooperation. >> yeah. and, joyce, to that issue of subject versus target, it is a
potentially of an impeachment proceeding if the folks on the hill at that point were deciding to go that direction, rather than making the president the target of an investigation and also an indictment. >> when you are using the word target, you mean in direct relationship to the other worth "indictment". >> yeah, exactly. that's a term of art within the department of justice. >> but he is, in effect, gene robinson, a target for impeachment in the outcome of this investigation, especially on the question of obstruction of justice. the only person who could obstruct justice in this story is donald trump.
>> yeah. and certainly the only person who has done it repeatedly and in public to say nothing of what he might have done in private that we don't know about. i guess one question i would have about this whole stage of the investigation is whether the president could in fact be named, if there is a conspiracy alleged in the final analysis by mueller, if he could be named as an unindicted coconspirator as richard nixon was years ago? is that a possibility to joyce or mia? >> i think to joyce's point, which is an important one, this does depend on how the department of justice looks at this institutionally. we already have a congress that's going after rod rosenstein for impeachment literally for acquitting his responsibility to the united states of america. it's very hard to know. but i actually think, and i'm one of the folks that thinks that it also depends what the court of public opinion says. if there is sufficient evidence
that becomes public that donald trump committed crimes beyond obstruction of justice, which i think is already in the public record, that there could be a reckoning that creates even potentially constitutional crisis. but certainly unindicted coconspirator would be if there is sufficient direct evidence. >> last word on unindicted coconspirator. >> i think it's likely that we will see the president as an unindicted coconspirator. what that means is he won't be named. he won't be indicted and justice department policy is not to include the name of a target that you don't indict in a case. so that's why his name won't be used. much as we saw in mueller's most recent indictment where people quickly realize that roger stone was the person referenced in a series of conversations, we might see the president in a cameo appearance like that in a subsequent mueller indictment.
>> thank you very starting us off tonight. really appreciate it. when we come back, ivanka trump proved today that she is the only member of the white house staff who knows she absolutely cannot be fired. she said she disagreed with her father's policy of separating children from their parents on the southern border. she did not explain why she did absolutely nothing about it. and why she hasn't visited the southern border to tell her father what is really happening to those children. and republicans continue to try to push the confirmation of brett kavanaugh to the supreme court so that perhaps he will be there in time to rule on any appeal of any issue involving robert mueller and the president of the united states. [music playing] (vo) from the beginning, wells fargo has supported community organizations like united way, non-profits like the american red cross, and our nation's veterans.
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is in control of the impeachment process. the trump political team realizes the president's lies about maybe it wasn't russia attacked our election are not working and knowing they cannot get the president to say the right thing, they decided to use cabinet members to do that today. the president is so worried about who will be in charge of the impeachment process, that he threw himself into a senate campaign in pennsylvania in which the republican challenger is pulling 15 points behind the democratic incumbent senator bob casey. and a more disturbing poll in texas tonight for republicans. shows a statistical tie with ted cruz. on saturday the president will campaign at an ohio congressional district that he won by 11 points and there will be a special election there on
tuesday. the democrat, danny o'connor, is in a statistical tie with the republican in that race. a democrat has not held that seat since 1980. joining our discussion now mike murphy and jonathan alter. both are msnbc political analysts. mike, these numbers look like problems for republicans. what do you see when you look at them? >> yeah. it's kind of winter is coming, i fear. this was an interesting trip to pennsylvania. these rallies are mostly about the president wanting love and adoration of crowds. he went there because there is a lot of history for trump. the congressman from that area who is running for senate is
behind double digits but running is an early trump supporter. and to the president's credit, that is a county where he massively overperformed. it is a place where he really spiked up. lou wants to win that senate race. he better get out of his own district, which is only maybe 80,000 voters out of the 2.5 million statewide and get to the philadelphia suburbs where the action is. the problem is he can't take trump there because trump can't get arrested. this was no political master stroke today. it was just the president doing his routine to an adoring crowd of republican primary voters. i'm sure it made him feel good. i don't think it moved the needle at all? i tie in the senate race in texas with ted cruz as of tonight? >> it's unbelievable. i mean, if the democrats knock off ted cruz this year, they will be dancing in the streets. it is not clear it is going to happen.
texas has been a strongly republican state for a long time. cruz is, you know, pretty effective at the cut and thrust of politics and he has a lot at his disposal, including a lot of money to try to take him down. but this is the kind of thing that indicates there could be a true blue tsunami that goes beyond re-taking the house and goes down to the state legislators and is a transformative election. i don't think we're there yet. i think democrats have this habit of kind of going on miller time, you know, going, okay, we got this in the bag. you know. all the signs, mike murphy is telling us on tv winter is coming. we don't have to dig deep in our pockets. we don't have to work that hard because this thing is done. and i think that would really be to misunderstand the history of elections and misunderstand recent elections where democrats have not turned out in midterms.
that's the recent history. they don't show up. so unless that trend is changed, it's not at all clear that the democrats will do as well as expected in november. >> let's take a look at the president attacking the news media tonight in pennsylvania. it is a very familiar bit that we have seen at all of these rallies. let's take a peak at tonight's version. >> but they can make anything bad because they are the fake, fake, disgusting news. >> to which mike murphy tweeted today in anticipation of that very moment, my advice to media re: out of control trump driven crowd hostility at his rallies, boycott them. send in an ap pool reporter and ap pool photo. nothing more. take away his oxygen for a while. mike, it makes a lot of sense. if there is a tv camera there, we will all have access to anything he says that might be
news worthy or worth putting on the air. there is not a thing he said tonight in that rally that has made it into this show in any serious way. >> yeah. if he is going to act the way he acts, and i'd say this about any politician of any party and not make any news. he is the president. you got to cover him. but you don't got to cover him like it's the d-day invasion. there is no need to cover it for anything other than the pool. and trump walks into these rallies and he looks in the back and he counts how many sticks and cameras there are. if he says he won, he will know the calculus is turning. this is a decision point for the media to decide if they are complicit in this because they like the box office of having their talent arguing with trump and all this back and forth. i don't see it. cover it with a pool reporter. i don't think there is any need to put on the show now that frankly the president uses to reinforce his base supporters where the media is very
unpopular. it is good box office for trump. the question is is the media more interested in that or the journalistic side of this. >> veteran of the campaign trail that has stood at more rallies as a reporter than any of us can count. is there any value to sending reporters into that room? >> no. at this point, i think mike is absolutely right. and i think we actually could go further than that. traditionally reporters are really competitive with each other. >> yeah. >> but as eleanor roosevelt said during world war ii, this is no ordinary time, right? and i think reporters have so sort of work together now more and they do that when there is a
pool situation. they have to do what mike is suggesting. and if the president crosses a line in attacking somebody personally and he's done this, they have to think about whether they want to haul out of the press room and walk out. >> there is nothing stopping them from doing that. >> there is no news organization, no employer of any of the news reporters at those events who can guarantee the safety of their personnel at those events. >> that's right. that's a real concern. somebody is going to get hurt. >> you got his agreement on this, to my surprise. i thought jonathan was going to stick with his -- >> he's a friend of mine, but i'm going to have a nightmare tonight. >> thank you both for joining us tonight. really appreciate it. >> thanks, lawrence. >> when we come back, ivanka trump said that she disagrees with her father's policy of separating children from their parents at the southern border. but ivanka trump did not say why she has done absolutely nothing about it.
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but the white house press secretary wouldn't dare say anything like that today. she wouldn't dare disagree with the president who says that the news media is the enemy of the people. ivanka trump also said this today. >> i am very vehemently against family separation. and the separation of parents and children. >> very vehemently. not vehemently enough to resign from her job working for a president who would do such a thing. not vehemently enough to actually go to the southern border when her father was ripping those children away from their parents and witness it all up close and report back to him on what his cruelty actually looks like. not vehemently enough to visit the children in their cages in texas. not vehemently enough to try to find the infant babies when no
one knew where they were, infant babies in her father's custody. she didn't feel it vehemently enough to go down there and see how the girls were being treated to make sure that the boys and the girls were safe from abuse. she did not feel vehemently enough about it to sit in a federal courtroom in texas and watch an immigration judge treat spanish speaking three-year-olds with no lawyers as adults and bring her eye witness experience of that legal atrocity back to her father to get him to stop his unspeakable cruelty to those children. ivanka trump was not so vehemently opposed to children being ripped out of the arms of their mothers that she actually did anything about it. ivanka trump added this personal note today. >> i am a daughter of an immigrant. my mother grew up in communist czech republic. but we are a country of laws. so, you know, she came to this country legally.
>> and what if she didn't? what if ivanka trump's mother, donald trump's first wife violated immigration laws of multiple countries on her way to becoming the first mrs. trump and the mother of a daughter who feels so vehemently opposed to ripping children out of their mother's arms at the border that he did nothing about it? immigration reporter noticed that comment this morning by ivanka trump and raised a series of important questions about her mother's manipulation and violation of immigration law to get into the united states. and it is an easy story to tell because the first mrs. trump told the story herself in her book that she published just last year. he posted the pages of ivanka trump's book in which she explains that when she was 22, she married an austrian skier
just to get an austrian passport. and in her book, she said the marriage wouldn't be real. it was only for me to get the necessary papers. that is a classic fraudulent marriage according to immigration law, but that marriage got ivanka trump's mother an austrian passport. she used that austrian passport to travel to canada where she lived before finally moving to the united states to mary donald trump. while she was still living in montreal, she made the two-hour drive to vermont because she liked the snow there so much. the snow is dry there. the powder was so light, i could ski circles around the americans. in no time, i became a ski instructor and taught kids how to race. in other words, in no time
ivanka trump's mother became the kind of criminal that ice enforcement agents are rounding up and deporting. she was illegally working as a ski instructor in the united states while living in montreal on an austrian passport. what the first mrs. trump did to make it to the united states was completely understandable. the fake marriage, the works. he put it this way after telling the ivanna trump story on twitter today. people do what they can to get to the u.s. they fake marriages, cross borders, get by on unauthorized labor. have children that are called anchor babies. was ivanka trump an anchor baby? were her brothers anchor babies?
their mother was not a citizen of the united states when they were born. the first mrs. trump did not become a citizen until 11 years after her marriage to donald trump. ivanka trump's mother told her story about getting into the united states in a book written last year with her daughter working in a white house that was trying to deport people like her mother when her mother was working at a ski resort in vermont. and the first mrs. trump told that story innocently and openly just last year because she trusted that we would all understand and accept everything that she did, including every violation of law from austrian law to canadian law to american law to find a better life for herself in this country. and that is a truly american story. it was then.
and it still is now. ivanka trump owes her very existence to her mother's dream for a better life in america. and now ivanka trump and her father are trying to crush that dream for anyone who comes to this country the way ivanka trump's mother did.
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try head and shoulders two in one. would you send your children to these centers? >> i -- i certainly think that in general practice people would prefer to be free to move about. i can tell you that is centers that i saw did, as described, have schools and -- >> but you would send your child to these centers? >> i -- i -- >> yes? no? >> that is a difficult question to answer. >> joining our discussion now, jonathan ryan, executive director for the refugee and immigrant center in texas. and jonathan, as you know, the congressman wrote a letter to ivanka trump today after she made her public comments inviting her to come to the border, to come down there where you have been and to see first-hand what's happening
there. if ivanka trump did go to the southern border now and if she did go to the federal courthouse and watch these hearings, and if she did meet the children who were being held in those cages still, there are still children in her father's custody, what would she be able to go back to the white house and tell her father. >> if ivanka trump as a mother and human being was truly vehemently opposed to these policies, she would be doing something about it. she would be resigning. she is an advisor in one of the most powerful policy offices in the entire world. if you are in my office or in that white house, if you are part of that advisory team and you truly are at a breaking point with the policy, if you are truly uncomfortable with the policy, the right thing to do is to resign. i think ivanka also needs to check her privilege because my heart obviously like everyone else's a breaking for her
reaching a low point over this summer. this has been a low point for our entire country. this has been the lowest point in the lives of thousands of children who were separated as we now know on purpose by this government, by this administration who targeted families for this cruel and torturous treatment. this is going on today. i'm reporting from the border from south texas, which this issue rages forwards. there are hundreds of fathers at the detention center right now who were separated from their children, held for a long period of time, months without them, and who have now been joined with their children in an internment camp run by a private prison company. they have been on hunger strike,
hundreds of them, with their children because they have reached that point of december -- there appears to be in rhyme or reason as to why some were released and many, many more are currently still being held in indefinite detention. if she were to visit the border, which i doubt she will do. she will see it is no different than it was weeks ago when our entire country was captivated by these injuries. we see it every day in our daily work. i don't know if she's ready to see it. she has prime agency in this policy. >> you know, she actually in the same interview today said she enjoyed getting out and traveling, going to trump
rallies and trump speeches because those are the only examples she gave in this. so this white house adviser who loves getting out of the white house and has apparently very strong feelings according to her about this policy shows no interest in traveling down to where you are and actually studying the effects of the policy. >> no interest in traveling here. i'm sure like she had no interest in going to charlottesville and speaking with the victims of the terrorists that her father's at administration sided with, who were attacked. we fight every day for a world where immigrants rights are respected and treated with dignity and equality. what we are seeing here is, frankly, in my opinion, more dangerous and more insidious to have an administration that is in some way being treated like a royal family where you have got one member whose lashing out and the other who is somehow trying
to button up the loose ends and act as though she is on the good side of history. she's not. >> thank you for joining us once again from texas tonight. really appreciate it. >> donald trump made a mistake apparently not listening to mitch mcconnell about the difficulty the brett kavanaugh paperwork would create in the confirmation process. that's next. when i found out i had age-related macular degeneration, amd, i wanted to fight back. my doctor and i came up with a plan. it includes preservision. only preservision areds 2 has the exact nutrient formula recommended by the national eye institute to help reduce the risk of progression of moderate to advanced amd.
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the republican race to confirm a trump supreme court justice in time to hear any possible appeals of a trump matter involving the special prosecutor hit another stumbling block today. turns out mitch mcconnell was right in advising president trump not to nominate brett kavanaugh, warning his massive paper trail would take a long time. the grassley request is a tiny percentage of the materials the archives has involving brett kavanaugh. today, senator grassley said the confirmation hearing would go forward in september even if the archives has not produced the materials that senator grassley said the committee needed. the george w. bush presidential
library is turning over some documents involving brett kavanaugh. but those documents are being screened by attorneys for the bush presidential library including one who has represented steve bannon, reince priebus and don mcgahn in russia-related investigations. joyce vance is back with us. turns out this paper trail is enormous and is not going to be in place, apparently, if time for confirmation hearing. >> it is enormous. and the problem with that is we're now looking at a process where instead of using the archivist, a nonpartisan process that was really created in response to excesses during the nixon white house to screen documents, we have a process where lawyers who represent president bush in his personal capacity will make decisions about what gets turned over to the senate for review. >> it seems to be designed by republicans to deny the senate and the american public the
information needed for this incredibly important confirmation. what's so strange, the chairman of the committee requested the information, said the committee needs it. the archives says we're not going to have it in time for your scheduled hearing and the chairman of the committee says, okay, never mind, we'll do it without it. >> it's an artificial deadline. and obviously they want the result, they want to get the justice confirmed as opposed to ensuring the integrity of the process. a really good comparison is justin kagan who had worked inside of the white house and they turned over papers both from her time in the counsel's office and her work on the domestic policy council. but now we'll have for judge kavanaugh a process where only his work in the white house counsel's office, not three years as the white house staff secretary, a job he said was tremendously important in determining his judicial
outlook. so this results-oriented process will really deprive much of the senate the paperwork it will be reviewing. >> joyce vance, thanks very much for joining us tonight. >> thanks for having me. tonight's last word is next. still a chance here. it's willingham, edge of the box, willingham shoots... goooooooaaaaaaaallllllll! that...was...magic. willingham tucks it in and puts the championship to bed. sweet dreams, nighty night. as long as soccer players celebrate with a slide, you can count on geico saving folks money. fifteen minutes could save you fifteen percent or more on car insurance. pressure, what pressure? the players on the...
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doesn't mean it's not obstruction of justice. public urination is still urination. >> and tonight's last word is thank you to our summer interns, aaron, erin, and jamie. and they all know that "the 11th hour with brian williams" starts right now. new tonight, raging against the media. donald trump's pennsylvania barn burner. he claims he's being riddenered -- hindered by the russian hoax. meanwhile, back at the white house, the president's top intel and law enforcement officials show a united front and say what trump won't, that russia poses a threat to our upcoming elections. also new tonight, robert mueller is looking to speak to another person with ties to that trump tower meeting. and ivanka trump, off message, on her white house low point and a break from her dad on a popular talking point. "the 11th hour" on a thursday night begins now.
Robert-muellerVladimir-putinAllNew-york-timesRelationshipFriendsRussiaDevelopmentsItemPressureWhite-houseAdministrationAnalysis and discussion of the day's top stories and compelling issues from Lawrence O'Donnell.
this will play out. which, as of tonight, could serve as the headline for the status of everything. still under investigation by the special prosecutor. unclear how this will play out. leading off our discussion now, joyce nance, former special prosecutor. and former counsel to the mayor of new york city and eugene robinson, opinion writer for the washington post. he's an msnbc political analyst. and you are a former federal prosecutor also. what do you make of the giuliani conditions for the interview? >> well, in fairness i was in the civil division of the u.s. attorneys office. i will say that unfortunately giuliani has become someone whose career is not going to be looked at quite the same light as it was before this because he really had a storied career. and what we're seeing is just
this complete disintegration of what was a credible lawyer into someone who has lost all credibility. while i have never agreed with rudy giuliani on many issues, including when he was mayor of new york city, i have to say i am shocked about his behavior as a lawyer. >> it seems that the giuliani proposition, if true, and let me just -- i should have prefaced all the of this which we have no idea what the truth is here. the mueller investigation has not leaked out a word, a document, nothing. if there has been communication about this recently from the mueller team to the giuliani team, we have to believe rudy giuliani's account of that, which is an extremely difficult thing to do. but let's do it for the sake of this discussion. but the truth is we have no idea what communication has been going on. but if the giuliani conditions are what's being communicated to mueller, is there any way for
mueller to accept those conditions? >> it really depends on what mueller thinks he needs out of this interview. and of course we don't know all of the cards that he's holding right now. but one thing prosecutors don't do when they need an interview with a witness, they don't negotiate because they have the subpoena power. and it is abundantly clear at least in my judgment that they don't plan on indicting the president because they are seeking this interview. according to giuliani and the president's lawyers, they have already said he is a subject, not a target. if mueller needs information that giuliani and the other lawyers aren't willing to seed them the authority to ask, they will simply issue a subpoena for the president and then let that run its way through the court process. >> how long would that take through the court process? >> you know, that's a really good question. it would depend on which grand jury they use. they could either go through d.c. or through virginia, which would be the fourth circuit.
even if those were treated as emergency appeals, it would stretch on for some time. then it would likely go up to the united states supreme court. they could either decide it or return it in part to the lower court. we could be looking at a process that would stretch out over months. >> that's one of the reasons why republicans are racing as fast as they can to confirm the next supreme court justice, it is the route that joyce just described. but the giuliani game of he wants to testify. "the new york times" reporting last night as if it was breaking news that there are people in the white house who tell the nonew york times that the president really wants to talk to the special prosecutor, but it is his lawyers who are reluctant. there is absolutely no way to back that up. we have no idea whether donald trump actually wants to talk to mueller or not. all the indicators are that he's
desperately afraid of talking to mueller. >> yeah. he ought to be, i think. if he's not. it is true that donald trump does appear to believe he can talk his way out of anything, just by lying, basically. that would be a really, really bad strategy to take into a meeting with the prosecutors. and that surely is what his lawyers are worried about. i do believe that his lawyers don't want him to go in there and talk. and as to whether, you know, he really wants to do it or really doesn't want to do it, who knows. it could depend on the day. but as you said at the beginning, if we're taking rudy giuliani's word for this, we are really out on a very slender limb. it's frankly hard to talk about what rudy says because we know that a lot of it, and i think the technical term for it is total crap.
i mean, it's just not true. >> let's listen to the way the president's allies are talking about this possible interview publically. let's listen to the way newt gingrich describes the situation. >> i think the president is very unwise to walk into a perjury trap against a group of smart guys who have spent a year's time getting ready to try to kill him. and i think he is not -- no one is smart enough to take on all of mueller's team. >> and of course there is no such thing as a perjury trap. all you have in perjury is someone who didn't tell the truth under oath. >> that's right. >> in other words, newt gingrich is saying it would be unwise for the president to take an oath. but in that you're seeing a communication to the president's supporters out there, to the president's base saying this is an unfair process. it is a trap and it would be -- the wise course for the president is to avoid this kind of sleazy lawyer trap.
>> you know, and there is the truth of it, which is it would be extremely ill advised for the president to talk to mueller. anybody who was his attorney would say don't do it because it's not that it's a perjury trap. it's because he has a lot to be concerned about in terms of the questions he will get. he's already got inconsistent statements in the public per view. there is no way you can walk into an interview with a prosecutor with inconsistent statements, including some things that could easily and in my view would be an admission of guilt, particularly on an obstruction charge, which is why they don't want obstruction as part of the interview. that part i believe. if there is an interview, they don't want any conversation about obstruction. i think it actually points to something that i think i will disagree with joyce on. it is one thing to say he's a subject, that donald trump is a subject of an investigation. subjects can become targets. the fact they have said he's a subject doesn't mean he can
become a target, which is the very reason why they don't want him to testify. i think you're absolutely right. this entire political strategy, not legal strategy, but political strategy has been to convince the trump base that there is nothing they should be concerned about in terms of trump's behavior. here is the question i would ask anyone without regard to political affiliation. if you have nothing to hide, you cooperate. this is not cooperation. >> yeah. and, joyce, to that issue of subject versus target, it is a lock ti long time ago we got this information that we were told he was a subject. i think it was last year. so there's been plenty of time for that to have shifted. >> that's true. and as mia says, many of us have contemplated could there be such a significant quantum of evidence against the president at some point that he would become a target?
but doj has a long standing policy for reasons that folks have debated whether they're still viable or not, but it concludes the sitting president cannot be indicted. there are many people who believe that mueller will not buck that precedent, particularly since he brought with him from the solicitor general's office an appellate lawyer who is known for his institutionalist views. so the consensus seems to be among many people that mueller would be far more likely to include all of this evidence in a report that would go up on the hill, that would form the body potentially of an impeachment proceeding if the folks on the hill at that point were deciding to go that direction, rather than making the president the target of an investigation and also an indictment. >> when you are using the word ta target, you mean in direct relationship to the other worth
"indictme "indictment". >> yeah, exactly. that's a term of art within the department of justice. >> but he is, in effect, gene robinson, a target for impeachment in the outcome of this investigation, especially on the question of obstruction of justice. the only person who could obstruct justice in this story is donald trump. >> yeah. and certainly the only person who has done it repeatedly and in public to say nothing of what he might have done in private that we don't know about. i guess one question i would have about this whole stage of the investigation is whether the president could in fact be named, if there is a conspiracy alleged in the final analysis by mueller, if he could be named as an unindicted coconspirator as
richard nixon was years ago? is that a possibility to joyce or mia? >> i think to joyce's point, which is an important one, this does depend on how the department of justice looks at this institutionally. we already have a congress that's going after rod rosenstein for impeachment literally for acquitting his responsibility to the united states of america. it's very hard to know. but i actually think, and i'm one of the folks that thinks that it also depends what the court of public opinion says. if there is sufficient evidence that becomes public that donald trump committed crimes beyond obstruction of justice, which i think is already in the public record, that there could be a reckoning that creates even potentially constitutional crisis. but certainly unindicted coconspirator would be if there is sufficient direct evidence. >> last word on unindicted
coconspirator. >> i think it's likely that we will see the president as an unindicted coconspirator. what that means is he won't be named. he won't be indicted and justice department policy is not to include the name of a target that you don't indict in a case. so that's why his name won't be used. much as we saw in mueller's most recent indictment where people quickly realize that roger stone was the person referenced in a series of conversations, we might see the president in a cameo appearance like that in a subsequent mueller indictment. >> thank you very starting us off tonight. really appreciate it. when we come back, ivanka trump proved today that she is the only member of the white house staff who knows she absolutely cannot be fired. she said she disagreed with her father's policy of separating children from their parents on the southern border. she did not explain why she did
absolutely nothing about it. and why she hasn't visited the southern border to tell her father what is really happening to those children. and republicans continue to try to push the confirmation of brett kavanaugh to the supreme court so that perhaps he will be there in time to rule on any appeal of any issue involving robert mueller and the president of the united states. fruits and veggies are essential to your health, but it's tough to get enough of their nutrients. new one a day with nature's medley is the only complete multivitamin with antioxidants from one total serving of fruits and veggies try new one a day with nature's medley.
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trump white house held a campaign event today. >> our focus here today is simply to tell the american people we acknowledge the threat. it is real. it is continuing. and we're doing everything we can to have a legitimate election that the american people can have trust in. >> faced with some recent bad polls, the trump team decided to put on a show at the white house demonstrating how seriously they take the issue of election security before the election that will determine which party is in control of the impeachment process. the trump political team realizes the president's lies about maybe it wasn't russia attacked our election are not working and knowing they cannot get the president to say the right thing rn, they decided toe
cabinet members to do that today. the president is so worried about who will be in charge of the impeachment process, that he threw himself into a senate campaign in pennsylvania in which the republican challenger is pulling 15 points behind the democratic incumbent senator bob casey. and a more disturbing poll in texas tonight for republicans. shows a statistical tie with ted cruz. on saturday the president will campaign at an ohio congressional district that he won by 11 points and there will be a special election there on tuesday. the democrat, danny o'connor, is in a statistical tie with the republican in that race. a democrat has not held that seat since 1980. joining our discussion now mike murphy and jonathan alter.
both are msnbc political analysts. mike, these numbers look like problems for republicans. what do you see when you look at them? >> yeah. it's kind of winter is coming, i fear. this was an interesting trip to pennsylvania. these rallies are mostly about the president wanting love and adoration of crowds. he went there because there is a lot of history for trump. the congressman from that area who is running for senate is behind double digits but running is an early trump supporter. and to the president's credit, that is a county where he massively overperformed. it is a place where he really spiked up. lou wants to win that senate race. he better get out of his own district, which is only maybe 80,000 voters out of the 2.5 million statewide and get to the
philadelphia suburbs where the action is. the problem is he can't take trump there because trump can't get arrested. this was no political master stroke today. it was just the president doing his routine to an adoring crowd of republican primary voters. i'm sure it made him feel good. i don't think it moved the need sgll a tie? i tie in the senate race in texas with ted cruz as of tonight? >> it's unbelievable. i mean, if the democrats knock off ted cruz this year, they will be dancing in the streets. it is not clear it is going to happen. texas has been a strongly republican state for a long time. cruz is, you know, pretty effective at the cut and thrust of politics and he has a lot at his disposal, including a lot of money to try to take him down. but this is the kind of thing that indicates there could be a true blue tsunami that goes
beyond re-taking the house and goes down to the state legislators and is a transformative election. i don't think we're there yet. i think democrats have this habit of kind of going on miller time, you know, going, okay, we got this in the bag. you know. all the signs, mike murphy is telling us on tv winter is coming. we don't have to dig deep in our pockets. we don't have to work that hard because this thing is done. and i think that would really be to misunderstand the history of elections and misunderstand recent elections where democrats have not turned out in midterms. that's the recent history. they don't show up. so unless that trend is changed, it's not at all clear that the democrats will do as well as expected in november. >> let's take a look at the president attacking the news media tonight in pennsylvania. it is a very familiar bit that we have seen at all of these rallies. let's take a peak at tonight's
version. >> but they can make anything bad because they are the fake, fake, disgusting news. >> to which mike murphy tweeted today in anticipation of that very moment, my advice to media re: out of control trump driven krout hostility at his rallies, boycott them. send in an ap pool reporter and ap pool photo. nothing more. take away his oxygen for a while. mike, it makes a lot of sense. if there is a tv camera there, we will all have access to anything he says that might be news worthy or worth putting on the air. there is not a thing he said tonight in that rally that has made it into this show in any serious way. >> yeah. if he is going to act the way he acts, and i'd say this about any politician of any party and not make any news. he is the president.
you got to cover him. but you don't got to cover him like it's the d-day invasion. there is no need to cover it for anything other than the pool. and trump walks into these rallies and he looks in the back and he counts how many sticks and cameras there are. if he says he won, he will know the calculus is turning. this is a decision point for the media to decide if they are complicit in this because they like the box office of having their talent arguing with trump and all this back and forth. i don't see it. cover it with a pool reporter. i don't think there is any need to put on the show now that frankly the president uses to reinforce his base supporters where the media is very unpopular. it is good box office for trump. the question is is the media more interested in that or the journalistic side of this. >> veteran of the campaign trail that has stood at more rallies as a reporter than any of us can
count. is there any value to sending reporters into that room? >> no. at this point, i think mike is absolutely right. and i think we actually could go further than that. traditionally reporters are really competitive with each other. >> yeah. >> but as eleanor roosevelt said during world war ii, this is no ordinary time, right? and i think reporters have so sort of work together now more and they do that when there is a pool situation. they have to do what mike is suggesting. and if the president crosses a line in attacking somebody personally and he's done this, they have to think about whether they want to haul out of the press room and walk out. >> there is nothing stopping them from doing that. >> there is no news organization, no employer of any of the news reporters at those events who can guarantee the safety of their personnel at those events. >> that's right. that's a real concern. somebody is going to get hurt. >> you got his agreement on
this, to my surprise. i thought jonathan was going to stick with his -- >> he's a friend of mine, but i'm going to have a nightmare tonight. >> thank you both for joining us tonight. really appreciate it. >> thanks, lawrence. >> when we come back, ivanka trump said that she disagrees with her father's policy of separating children from their parents at the southern border. but ivanka trump did not say why she has done absolutely nothing about it. is this at&t innovations? yeah, wow..this must be for one of our new unlimited wireless plans. it comes with a ton of entertainment options. great, can you sign for this? yeah. hey, uh.. what's in that one? that's a shark. new and only with at&t, you can get unlimited data, 30+ channels of live tv, and your choice of things like hbo or pandora premium. more for your thing. that's our thing. visit att dot com.
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she did that by saying two things that no one else in the white house would dare to say. on the same day that the white house press secretary disgracefully ran around in angry verbal circles, refusing to say that the news media is not the enemy of the people. ivanka trump said this. >> no, i do not feel that the media is the enemy of the people. >> looks easy when ivanka trump does it. but the white house press secretary wouldn't dare say anything like that today. she wouldn't dare disagree with the president who says that the news media is the enemy of the people. ivanka trump also said this today. >> i am very vehemently against family separation. and the separation of parents and children. >> very vehemently.
not vehemently enough to resign from her job working for a president who would do such a thing. not vehemently enough to actually go to the southern border when her father was ripping those children away from their parents and witness it all up close and report back to him on what his cruelty actually looks like. not vehemently enough to visit the children in their cages in texas. not vehemently enough to try to find the infant babies when no one knew where they were, infant babies in her father's custody. she didn't feel it vehemently enough to go down there and see how the girls were being treated to make sure that the boys and the girls were safe from abuse. she did not feel vehemently enough about it to sit in a federal courtroom in texas and watch an immigration judge treat spanish speaking three-year-olds with no lawyers as adults and bring her eye witness experience of that legal atrocity back to
her father to get him to stop his unspeakable cruelty to those children. ivanka trump was not so vehemently opposed to children being ripped out of the arms of their mothers that she actually did anything about it. ivanka trump added this personal note today. >> i am a daughter of an immigrant. my mother grew up in communist czech republic. but we are a country of laws. so, you know, she came to this country legally. >> and what if she didn't? what if ivanka trump's mother, donald trump's first wife violated immigration laws of multiple countries on her way to becoming the first mrs. trump and the mother of a daughter who feels so vehemently opposed to ripping children out of their mother's arms at the border that
he did nothing about it? immigration reporter noticed that comment this morning by ivanka trump and raised a series of important questions about her mother's manipulation and violation of immigration law to get into the united states. and it is an easy story to tell because the first mrs. trump told the story herself in her book that she published just last year. he posted the pages of ivanka trump's book in which she explains that when she was 22, she married an austrian skier just to get an austrian passport. and in her book, she said the marriage wouldn't be real. it was only for me to get the necessary papers. that is a classic fraudulent marriage according to immigration law, but that marriage got ivanka trump's
mother an austrian passport. she used that austrian passport to travel to canada where she lived before finally moving to the united states to mary donald trump. while she was still living in montreal, she made the two-hour drive to vermont because she liked the snow there so much. the snow is dry there. the powder was so light, i could ski circles around the americans. in no time, i became a ski instructor and taught kids how to race. in other words, in no time ivanka trump's mother became the kind of criminal that ice enforcement agents are rounding up and deporting. she was illegally working as a ski instructor in the united states while living in montreal onassport.
what the first mrs. trump did to make it to the united states was completely understandable. the fake marriage, the works. he put it this way after telling the ivanna trump story on twitter today. people do what they can to get to the u.s. they fake marriages, cross borders, get by on unauthorized labor. have children that are called anchor babies. was ivanka trump an anchor baby? were her brothers anchor babies? their mother was not a citizen of the united states when they were born. the first mrs. trump did not become a citizen until 11 years after her marriage to donald trump. ivanka trump's mother told her story about getting into the united states in a book written last year with her daughter
working in a white house that was trying to deport people like her mother when her mother was working at a ski resort in vermont. and the first mrs. trump told that story innocently and openly just last year because she trusted that we would all understand and accept everything that she did, including every violation of law from austrian law to canadian law to american law to find a better life for herself in this country. and that is a truly american story. it was then. and it still is now. ivanka trump owes her very existence to her mother's dream for a better life in america. and now ivanka trump and her father are trying to crush that dream for anyone who comes to
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that i saw did,s s as described have schools and -- >> but you would send your child to these centers? >> i -- i -- >> yes? no? >> that is a difficult question to answer. >> joining our discussion now, jonathan ryan, executive director for the refugee and immigrant center in texas. and jonathan, as you know, the congressman wrote a letter to ivanka trump today after she made her public comments inviting her to come to the border, to come down there where you have been and to see first-hand what's happening there. if ivanka trump did go to the southern border now and if she did go to the federal courthouse and watch these hearings, and if she did meet the children who were being held in those cages still, there are still children in her father's custody, what would she be able to go back to
the white house and tell her father. >> if ivanka trump as a mother and human being was truly vehemently opposed to these policies, she would be doing something about it. she would be resigning. she is an advisor in one of the most powerful policy offices in the entire world. if you are in my office or in that white house, if you are part of that advisory team and you truly are at a breaking point with the policy, if you are truly uncomfortable with the policy, the right thing to do is to resign. i think ivanka also needs to check her privilege because my heart obviously like everyone else's a breaking for her reaching a low point over this summer. this has been a low point for our entire country. this has been the lowest point in the lives of thousands of children who were separated as we now know on purpose by this government, by this administration who targeted families for this cruel and t
torturous treatment. this is going on today. i'm reporting from the border from south texas, which this issue rages forwards. there are hundreds of fathers at the detention center right now who were separated from their children, held for a long period of time, months without them, and who have now been joined with their children in an internment camp run by a private prison company. they have been on hunger strike, hundreds of them, with their children because they have reached that point of december p -- december prthere appears toe or reason as to why some were
released and many, many more are currently still being held in indefinite detention. if she were to visit the border, which i doubt she will do. she will see it is no different than it was weeks ago when our entire country was captivated by these injuries. we see it every day in our daily work. i don't know if she's ready to see it. she has prime agency in this policy. >> you know, she actually in the same peer viinterview today sai enjoyed getting out and traveling, going to trump rallies and trump speeches because those are the only examples she gave in this. so this white house adviser who loves getting out of the white house and has apparently very strong feelings according to her about this policy shows no interest in traveling down to where you are and actually studying the effects of the
policy. >> no interest in traveling here. i'm sure like she had no interest in going to charlottesville and speaking with the victims of the terrorists that her father's at min stra administration sided with, who were attacked. we fight every day for a world where immigrants rights are respekr respected and treated with dignity and equality. what we are seeing here is, frankly, in my opinion, more dangerous and more insidious to have an administration that is in some way being treated like a royal family where you have got one member whose lashing out and the other who is somehow trying to button up the loose ends and act as though she is on the good side of history. she's not. >> thank you for joining us once again from texas tonight. really appreciate it.
>> donald trump made a mistake apparently not listening to mitch mcconnell about the difficulty the brett kavanaugh paperwork would create in the confirmation process. that's next. your society was led by a woman, who governed thousands... ...commanded armies... ...yielded to no one. when i found you in my dna, i learned where my strength comes from. my name is courtney mckinney, and this is my ancestrydna story. now with 2 times more geographic detail than other dna tests. order your kit at ancestrydna.com.
prosecutor hit another stumbling block today. turns out mitch mcconnell was right in advising president trump not to nominate brett kavanaugh, warning his massive paper trail would take a long time. the grassley request is a tiny percentage of the materials the archives has involving brett kavanaugh. today, senator grassley said the confirmation hearing would go forward in september even if the archives has not produced the materials that senator grassley said the committee needed. the george w. bush presidential library is turning over some documents involving brett kavanaugh. but those documents are being screened by attorneys for the bush presidential library including one who has represented steve bannon, reince priebus and don mcgahn in russia-related investigations. joyce vance is back with us.
turns out this paper trail is enormous and is not going to be in place, apparently, if time for confirmation hearing. >> it is enormous. and the problem with that is we're now looking at a process where instead of using the archivist, a nonpartisan process that was really created in response to excesses during the nixon white house to screen documents, we have a process where lawyers who represent president bush in his personal capacity will make decisions about what gets turned over to the senate for review. >> it seems to be designed by republicans to deny the senate and the american public the information needed for this incredibly important confirmation. what's so strange, the chairman of the committee requested the information, said the committee needs it. the archives says we're not going to have it in time for your scheduled hearing and the
chairman of the committee says, okay, never mind, we'll do it without it. >> it's an artificial deadline. and obviously they want the result, they want to get the justice confirmed as opposed to ensuring the integrity of the process. a really good comparison is justin kagan who had worked inside of the white house and they turned over papers both from her time in the counsel's office and her work on the domestic policy council. but now we'll have for judge kavanaugh a process where only his work in the white house counc counsel's office, not three years as the white house staff secretary, a job he said was tremendously important in determining his judicial outlook. so this results-oriented process will really deprive much of the senate the paperwork it will be reviewing. >> joyce van ychce, thanks veryh for joining us tonight. >> thanks for having me.
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