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Transcripts For CNNW CNN Tonight With Don Lemon 20160721

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>> stand by. >> like my cousins, who are gay, into the american fabric. to love this song is to take into your heart the message and to actually, actually have a feeling to arrive and move forward and not live your life in fear and imposing that fear on other people. ♪ >> boo! >> you can boo all you want, but i'm the mother [ bleep ] artist up here. >> wow, steven. that was kind of tense. go ahead. what happened there? >> just that. you know, and i mean, i don't, you know, the thing about this stuff, it's like talking about, talking about, you know, did pence give somebody an air kiss or did, did, you know, cruz endorse or not, what this does is it just kind of on few skates the actual issues, where actually talking about that platform, that republican platform, which i think is a caveman's manifesto. and if we could get away from all these kinds of, like, this surface sort of name-calling stuff, you could get down to the, to try to find the actual issues. the real issue tonight is that their candidate said that he would not defend nato allies at a night when they're talking about projecting american strength. that's issue. and all this stuff get tthe jus gets, that's my take away from all this. tonight we played a show, a big, sold-out show. and i looked at the audience, there are people on the left, people on the right, black, white, straight, gay. and there's a unifying moment where people come up out of themselves, and they join together around music. and that environment that we were in tonight allowed for that to happen. the one that i was in last night was not. and i was just kind of -- i think that you, to be true to yourself, you've got to clarify your intentions and where you're at. and that's what i was doing. i like republicans. my mother's a republican. i've got lots of republican friends. this isn't about like, this isn't about like, you know, a popularity or i don't know, this kind of this or that thing. but what we're knocked down with is the platform that they were selling. and that's what i was trying to call out last night. and boy, did they get touchy about it, don. >> let me read your statement, and then i'll let you continue. because the band released a statement. and it says we did not pray an rnc event. we performed at a benefit for musicians on call because we support their mission in bringing music to the bedside of patients in hospitals. being that the benefit was held in cleveland, we suspected that convention types might show up, and we let it be known that we were there to support musicians on call and we repudiated every stitch of the republican platform. science is science. goal is not clean. black lives matter. lgbtq equals equal. separation of church and state. do you think you were being political just by making that statement? >> yeah, but i think music is political. and when you are in that environment, being passive is a political statement. remaining passive in situations where you're being painted by somebody else's brush is, is a move of non-action, and that's a statement in itself. so better to lay down what you're actually about, don't you think? >> i missed the last part. say again? >> you asked me if it's political. and what i'm saying is that music is political. third eye blind's music, the framework from which it comes has always been a progressive bench but one that is inclusive to all people. when you're in a situation like that, if you are passive and say nothing, that is also a political statement. either way, you're making a statement. you make a statement by nonaction or action, and i would rather do one that is actually true to me so that i'm eligible to transfer to other people. i think that just makes sense. >> steven jenkins, thank you for coming on at this late hour. we're going to discuss what you said later, you can stick around and you can. but we've got to get to a break. >> thank you. have a great night. >> we'll be back live from cleveland. we'll discuss this and more. ♪ ♪ you've wished upon it all year, and now it's finally here. the mercedes-benz summer event is back, with incredible offers on the mercedes-benz you've always longed for. but hurry, these shooting stars fly by fast. lease the gle350 for $579 a month at your local mercedes-benz dealer. mercedes-benz. the best or nothing. i love that my shop is part of the morning ritual around here. people rely on that first cup and i wouldn't want to mess with that. but when (my) back pain got bad, i couldn't sleep. i had trouble getting there on time. then i found aleve pm. aleve pm is the only one to combine a safe sleep aid plus the 12 hour strength of aleve. for pain relief that can last into the morning. ♪ look up at a new day... hey guys! now i'm back. aleve pm for a better am. i think when people hear about i think it's important for, everyone to know that there is so much more to memory support than the stigmas you hearabout. that these residents still have lives and their lives still matter and that they are still living their lives. that they're not locked away and that they still have a lot to live for, you know, that they have people that care about them and they have people that love them and i love them, so (laughs). call now to find out how we can put our 30 years of understanding to work for your loved one today. told you have cancer? 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>> yeah, it was a really tense scene, don. we were standing right next to heidi cruz here on the convention floor. and immediately afterwards, she was approached by ken cuccinelli, a virginia republican and an ally of cruz. came over, and they started conferring. people were shouting at her. someone yelling, goldman sachs in a very aggressive manner, of course the place where she works. and two security personnel came up to heidi cruz to escort her out, because cuccinelli told me later there with concerns over her safety. throughout this speech, it got more and more sensetense as ted failed to give that endorsement of trump. he congratulated trump for winning the nomination, but as he refused to say more about him and talked about the republican party agenda and his conservative agenda, folks got more angry. there were shouts of "liein' ted". people shouting "trump, trump, trump", and trying to drown out his speech. they effectively did. it was a surreal moment. and interestingly, afterwards, a lot of backlash from ted cruz, not just from trump supporters, but big donors, sheldon adeleson. and he rescinded his invitation, would not let him come into his suite and talk to ted cruz because of his frustration with cruz's refusal to endorse donald trump. >> there's a picture of him in sheldon adeleson's suite. >> there were a lot of folks cheering. there were clearly a mix of cheers and boos. there were more boos. what is remarkable here, don is that we thought that the convention activists and delegates were sort of in ted cruz's mold. they were his party people, activist types. but that really was not the case. there were far more trump supporters than there were krcr supporters. clearly they were drawn out, while some were happy that cruz was withholding his endorsement, this crowd was not. >> manu, on a very packed convention floor. kidding. i want to bring in my political dream team. mark, the reaction was really, listen, he's physically having doors slammed in his face now. >> the question is, coming in to this, we weren't quite sure what ted cruz was going to do and how he was going to deliver his speech. i think we didn't think it was going to go over like the lead balloon that it has. however, just like the melania event on monday. we were there before, the situation we're in right now. but let's talk about the long run. i don't necessarily think this is going to be fatal to ted cruz's political career. cruz is going to run in 2020. ted cruz is still going to have supporters. quite frankly, if donald trump does lose, there's the possibility that people are going to rally back to ted cruz. he still has core supporters. >> what happens if donald trump wins? >> you know what? ted cruz could be his biggest enemy in the united states senate, because he still holds an incredible amount of power in the u.s. senate. >> you agree? >> yeah. >> ted cruz isn't changing who ted cruz is regardless of whether trump wins or loses. the message was this isn't about a person. it's about our principles. the fact that the trump supporters booed voting your conscience and the constitution is very revealing. >> oh, come on. >> no, that's going to play. you're going to hear it two, four, six years from now. >> when they slam someone, they are a are the best person in the world. for somebody to get up there and say how they really feel and shot say o i'm going to say what i really think. >> he called him great. he called him fantastic. he said he's a great voice for this party. he said his business experience is going to help this party. they were staunch allies for four months. [ talking simultaneously ] >> but that was before he said his wife was -- >> that was then and this is now. >> let's be clear, that ted cruz based his argument tonight on constitutional conservatism. donald trump's record is out there. don't praise him for four months. >> let's take a look at how he got here. watch this. >> i think, in terms of a commander in chief, we ought to have someone who isn't springing out of bed to tweet in a frantic response to the latest polls. >> he is like a little baby. soft, weak, little baby by comparison. but for lying, he's the best i've ever seen. the best. >> another temper tantrum. or if you like, another trumper tantrum. >> liein' ted cruz. >> donald, you're a sniffling coward. leave heidi the hell alone. >> he was a failed, he couldn't get anything passed. >> he is a pathological liar. a narcissist at a level i don't think this country's ever seen. the man is utterly awol. >> so why would anyone getsay o this guy. >> why did he even come? >> why did trump give him the opportunity? >> let him come, here it is. >> here's paul manafort, the campaign manager. >> were you disappointed that he didn't -- >> donald trump felt all the candidates should have an opportunity to speak. he gave them all. some of them couldn't make it. and rubio sent a video. >> the cruz campaign says trump made the call two days ago, and he would not endorse. is that accurate? >> such a coveted prime time spot, is that a mistake? >> donald trump was trying to unify the party, and he's done that. not withstanding what senator cruz said tonight. the party came together. >> look, i know that was hard for me to hear. so i have the verbatim here. we were disappointed he didn't say something more positive, but, you know, we didn't have any commitments. we didn't ask for any commitments. donald trump felt all the candidates who ran should have an opportunity to spike. and he gave all of them. walker, rubio couldn't make it. we played the video. cruz, cruz called trump two days ago, do say we wouldn't endorse. is that accurate? and he said that's not accurate. was it a mistake to give him a prime time slot? mr. trump felt he finished second and should have a good spot, so he did. the donald trump was trying to unify the party and he's done that, not withstanding what senator cruz said tonight, the party came together. that's it. >> that's nice. >> that's an overstatement. just because donald trump says it doesn't necessarily mean it's true. we saw monday night with the little riffraff that happened on the floor. tonight with ted cruz. anybody who, and to be honest, you look at the numbers, only 67% of republicans say they actually support donald trump right now. so to say that the party is unified is definitely an overstatement, and to say that the party is unified when they had questions about donald trump coming into the convention, after this convention there is one saving grace. i don't have any faith in it, but there is one saving grace. and that is donald trump gets to save his own behind tomorrow night. i don't have any faith that he will do anything he hasn't done in the past. but if he all of a sudden comes out and looks like ronald reagan, like he's never done in his life. then god bless hillary clinton. >> donald trump tweeted this was not a big deal. i saw the speech two hours before, wanted to give him a chance. it's no big deal. >> it's not a big deal in the sense that trump has never been traditional in getting endorsements. throughout the entire primary season, he wasn't an endorsement guy, and i don't think it's going to bear much weight. if you look at the electoral map, it's almost the same as rick santorum in 2012. and santorum tried to continue his career four years later and he doesn't have a career. i think four years from now, cruz is the candidate he once was. >> he's ending his career, ted cruz is -- >> the electoral map. >> political career, ted cruz does have a political career. >> not a winning one. >> but i think he picked up the mantle of conservatism. it was humble. people loved it. that focus group that john berman did. they said they would never vote for ted cruz, those 20 voters. they said they were not moved to donald trump, but they unanimously agreed that they liked mike pence. mike pence now holds the mantle of conservatism. [ talking simultaneously ] >> donald trump is talking about pence -- >> but the people at home thought -- >> as i walked here, everyone was like cruz, krcruz. >> tonight, mike pence's message on foreign policy was, we have to be there to support our friends and allies, and in the morning you're going to read an article in the "new york times" that says we're not going to show up from donald trump for our allies. >> we'll be right back from the grill. >> they don't abide -- >> we'll let them talk. so much for gop unity. ted cruz refusing to endorse donald trump in his convention speech and getting booed by angry delegates. i want to bring in someone who did not get booed. that's pastor daryl scott. and with me, my political panel. you were good. >> appreciate that. >> i think you got the best response. >> i can think of no stronger leader who will place their left hand on a bible they believe in, raise their right hand and solemnly swear to faithfully execute the office of president of the united states and to the best of his ability preserve, protect and defend the constitution of the united states than donald j. trump! >> well. oh, lord, you were preachin'. how'd you feel? >> that's what i do every week. they tried to assign me a speechwriter, i said, man, i write speeches every week. i don't need a speechwriter. >> ah-oh. >> i miean, no brag, just a fac. >> they didn't approve your speech? >> they didn't tweak it. >> did you plagiarize? >> a little bit. from the bible. maybe from the constitution. the pledge of allegiance and i took some from the bible. >> what was your reaction to that moment with ted cruz? >> ted cruz is a clown. he does what clowns do. do some classless, tasteless, suicidal stuff hilike that. i mean, to be honest. that was stupid. i don't understand. you know what it was? it was a subliminal message. remember in his campaign when he was manu e manu? he would say vote your conscience. your grandpa. and i'm not going to call paul ryan eddie. but remember, he kept saying vote your conscience? >> right. >> so he's trying to subliminally put that message over. what he's saying is "don't vote for donald trump." >> on paper, you may not have caught that. if you just read it off the paper, and you saw vote your conscience, you wouldn't, until he actually delivered it up there, you said it was subliminal. i think you're on to something. >> yeah. he was trying to subliminally influence the crowd to not support donald trump. >> would you support him as a future republican candidate? >> who? ted cruz? i wouldn't have supported him if he didn't do that. he comes across as fake. >> the members of the texas delegation, they were clad in ted cruz paraphernalia, and they said we hope our candidate who we supported endorses donald trump, because believe it or not, there are a lot of republicans who really want to beat hillary clinton. and you do that by supporting donald trump. it's a binary choice. >> here's what i don't like. john kasich, ted cruz, they use their christianity as part of their platform, and you platt-out lied. you signed a pledge. >> that wasn't a pledge to god. it was a pledge to the rnc. >> it doesn't matter. if i make a promise to you, as a christian, i should keep my -- >> donald trump's said some really awful things. >> that wasn't christian. >> i don't think a man of good character and standing -- >> he didn't break his word. >> donald trump didn't even want to sign that pledge. >> but he signed it. and the pledge -- >> he also threatened not to abide by the pledge, too. >> he just said i want to be treated fairly. that's all. >> what does fairly mean? >> would you say this. >> that's subjective. >> that pledge was targeted against donald trump, because they were afraid he might try to do a third party win. so they did the pledge specifically targeted the pledge against him, and it bit them in the butt. >> if you have legitimate concerns after you've learned more about donald trump, about how he would act as a commander in chief, do you think upholding a pledge to a political party -- >> then don't sign it in the first place. if you're a christian. we know more about trump than we know about them. >> can i just say something? using christianity to protect a lot of the verbiage, a lot of the vitriol, a lot of the divisiveness that donald trump has espoused sounds hypocritical. >> i'm not trying to do that. what i said was ted cruz and john kasich campaigned on they used christian iity as a major part of their campaign. i'm the christian, he's not. >> but because christian its was not a pillar of donald trump's campaign, if's okay if he strays from it? >> when did he stray from it. >> we can go down the litany of whether he was talking about megyn kelly or. >> the topic that we're talking about. we're not going down the line and naming every thing donald trump has done. >> one at a time. [ talking simultaneously ] >> he didn't sign the pledge. >> he broke his word on the first night. they lied to the american public. because they plagiarized and then they lied about it. >> who plagiarized? >> you didn't get the memo? >> i lost the video. barack obama plagiarized it. >> there we go. [ talking simultaneously ] >> we went through this. >> it's so rich to me when i hear hillary clinton surrogates talking about lies. [ talk simultaneously ] >> i thought your speech was great. one of the things that's been going on amongist african-americans in this country right now, we're having a serious question about criminal justice rye foeform. and i thought you had an awesome opportunity to lay out donald trump's criminal justice -- >> that's not my place. >> what is it? >> we're discussing things with him right now. why do we need the reform? >> what is it? >> why do we need reform? hillary and bill need to be locked up. >> we can ask -- >> locked up black folks? >> no, it's not. >> one at a time. >> you asked a question, let him answer. let him answer it. let him answer. pastor, pastor. [ talking simultaneously ] >> why don't we talk about unraveling mass incarceration, why don't we talk about de-escalation, demilitarizing our law enforcement, community policing. >> those are your issues tonight? >> no. >> i asked you a question. i want invited to stand up to represent the black race. i endorsed on high behalf. >> that's fine. >> i don't have to -- >> there are issues that directly affect -- >> one person's passion is not enough. >> that's not enough? >> both my brothers been in the penitentiary. i shouldn't do nothing. i shouldn't -- >> that's a problem. >> because i have criminals in my family? >> that's a problem. >> that's not a problem. >> if you hold donald trump to a standard that you think i can represent -- [ talking simultaneously ] >> they lockin' them up. >> i hold her accountable for mass incarceration. >> you can hold her accountable. you know what her first speech -- >> what did it achieve? >> you can't name what donald trump -- >> i don't have to name. >> it's nonexistent. >> hold on. hold on. hold on. does he have, does he have a platform. >> that's upsetting. >> what else. >> that's absurd. >> to reintegrate ex-felons back into america. we have a program -- is donald trump president? >> thank god, no. >> is he? >> no. >> so he can't implepts it anyway. >> pause, pause, we're coming back with these two, and i'm getting some popcorn. tokyo-style ramen noodles. freshly made in the japanese tradition, each batch is small. special. unique... every bowl blurring the line between food...and art. when you cook with incredible ingredients... you make incredible meals. fresh ingredients. step-by-step-recipes. delivered to your door, for less than $9 a meal. get $30 off your first delivery blueapron.com/cook. back now with pastor scott, a trump supporter. and in this corner -- in the blue corner -- >> and i'm ducking. >> in the red corner we've got pastor daryl scott. i thought a good question that you answered somewhat, but you guys were sort of talking over each other. do you feel any only gas bligatn african-american to talk about criminal justice reform or -- >> we have a lot. >> when you're up on that stage tonight. >> they give you a certain amount of time and they tweak what you have to say, and i didn't want to deviate from what they asked me to do. i did what they asked. maybe it was part of therefore ma -- there for that purpose. we had a number of meetings with mr. trump. and in those meetings, we discussed issues jgermane to th african-american community. we discussed shootings. and this was almost, close to a year ago. he said i wonder why the police are shooting to kill, rather than shooting to wound. if they feel that the use of deadly force is necessary. and so we had that discussion with him. and i thought it was very insightful for him to say that, that if you feel deadly force is necessary, why shoot to kill? shoot to wound. >> that doesn't make any sense. if you feel deadly force is necessary, use deadly force. >> hold on, don't tell me what i said doesn't make sense. it does make sense. every crime does not require death, so don't say that. >> isn't that the whole -- >> black lives matter? >> that's the point. >> you shoot to disable. >> my point is -- >> so you're saying that the police should kill plaqblack pe? >> not at all. >> let him say it. >> i think they deserve humanity. i don't think there needs to be shooting whatsoever. they need to de-escalate -- >> if the police officer feels that deadly force is necessary. >> that's what i'm saying, you have incidents like dilldylan r. he murdered nine people, and they pulled up on him and arrested him without incident, but you have alton sterling being, selling cds, this goes on and on and on. but my challenge is not just to you by any stretch. it takes a lot to go up there in front of 20 million people and knock it home and have people cheering and chanting your name. i think we have a responsibility larger than that. there has to be a message for how you uplift communities of people of color. >> that may be true, but tonight wasn't the night. >> that's fair. >> that was not the purpose of the platform. and with me pastoring a church and knowing about having crowds and having someone, giving them the microphone and asking them to do a specific duty, you don't take advantage of that you do what you're suppose to do. >> if there's going to be a plan where you reinvig rate and pump economic stimuluses, we vchbts seen that yet. >> we're talking about, he's talking about providing tax incentives for businesses to relocate to the inner cities. >> we've heard from so many speakers who have come out there and said blue lives matter. of course blue lives matter. we know that. they think it's multual exclusive. if you say black lives matter, blue lives don't matter. >> i'd say black lives matter too. not -- >> why is it exclusive. >> what is so hard for people to understand, why do people think, there are bad journalists. there are bad teachers, bad preachers. if you say, it doesn't mean that you're anti-police. why do people come to that conclusion mostly among the crowd that were up there. if you criticize police in any way you're anti-police. >> i don't think you are should generalize. >> yeah, exactly. >> i don't think you should generalize and say all police. >> no one's saying all police. >> you know what i think is sad? you know what i think is sad? i know the names for the last it's years of the black people killed by police. i don't know one of those police officers' names. that's my part. i'm not blaming. the names of the police officers aren't as publicized as the names of the black guys. >> that's like ferguson, we rushed to judgment. the president septembnt the jus department to ferguson. >> that has nothing to do with what we're saying. >> yes it does. >> you're -- >> can i ask a question? >> hold on, hold on. you're giving an extreme example of something that really has nothing to do with what we're saying. the process didn't work in ferguson. the officer was exonerated. that doesn't mean that there aren't officers that need to be cleaned up around the country, ferguson is one of them. you keep giving this one extreme example. >> the highest law enforcement -- >> you hear black lives matter from other people, it makes us angry, because. >> why would it make you angry if someone says a life matters. it shouldn't make you angry that a life matters. >> of course, all lives matter. stop, the language that comes out is so negative towards police. and in ferguson, they took the side of a bully who bullied a minority shopkeeper, beat up a cop and got killed because of his own actions and the hands up don't shoot was a lie. >> you're using the same argument that you're saying that people in black lives matter say about police. you're pachbtsing everybody, you're painting the whole movement as negative, when you think that the people in black lives matter are painting all police officers negative, and that's not what's happening, you're talking past each other. >> all lives matter. we know what you're insinuating -- >> what are we insinuatinsinuat? >> that young black men are targets and police are targeting them. >> we're not saying that. >> as a young black male, let me tell you what it means. >> i'm not a young black male? >> no, you're not. >> so we have an educational moment here. there is a significant pain that many african-american males. cassandra planbland was not an african american male. you can bring up the example of ferguson all you want. it's not just eric garner, walter scott, tamir rice. >> there are things that need to be looked at. no doubt about it, >> don't say but. >> but when you have people taking to the streets saying we want dead cops. >> is it racist because -- >> let me finish. you have them chanting, a whole group of people, we want dead cops, and one week later, wenjin liu died. you have them yelling, pigs in a blanket, fry them like bacon. a group of people shouting this. and then you have police officers killed on the streets. all lives matter, black lives matter, white lives matter, all lives matter. all lives. >> we don't have the question about the value of young white males in this country, but there is a serious question about the young black males. >> and police lives. >> nobody's questioning those lives. >> yes, they are. >> who? >> because of the simple fact they don't get the benefit of their humanity. there are many things you can do and get shot while being black. that is a point. >> let me -- >> if all this was happening under eight years of a trump administration, we'd be blaming it on him. obama getting a pass. >> explain that. >> he doesn't -- >> he didn't just say that. >> he doesn't address that. [ talking simultaneously ] >> all that stuff you read in history books? i lived all that stuff you read about, i lived through it. i'm seeing the same conditions being repeated now under this democratic administration. in the '60s, blacks were rioting in the streets and getting beat up in the street. in 2016, graduation is lowest since 1963. we're getting beat up by the police and rioting in the streets. >> what if i gave you those facts, i'll give you those facts for the purposes of discussion. how is donald trump going to fix them? >> it's not about donald trump. >> you just said it -- >> listen, listen, this is about barack obama. this conversation doesn't need to be had about donald trump. it needs to be had -- [ overlapping speakers ] >> why doesn't barack obama just simply say, y'all just stop. >> y'all who? >> y'all black folks killing people. why doesn't barack obama make it a point to say, i want this to stop. >> what? >> you know what. >> use your words. >> tell him. >> what's been happening in the last two weeks? >> you act like barack obama has been condoning -- >> you see the way donald trump does rallies? if i'm barack obama, i'm going city to city to city to where the hot beds are saying please, stop the violence, let's stop this disunity, let's not do this. let's not do this. he's been reactive, not proactive. >> he's been very proactive. first of all, barack obama has brought these groups together -- >> what groups? >> the ferguson commission so that you can talk about -- >> what groups has he brought together. >> the ferguson commission. >> with who. >> they laid out a plan -- >> what good did it do? >> it's -- >> so we have the funerals for five dead cops a of that. >> the problem is you think that i can't pray for them and pray for the people who die in minneapolis and baton rouge. >> it's not working. >> so what is donald trump going to do, answer the question. >> what do you mean, answer the question. i don't speak for everything donald trump does. >> that's a sad commentary, bro. >> i've got to go. if you're not up and watching this show at 2:00 in the morning, you ain't nothing. >> you know everything hillary clinton is going to do? do you know everything hillary clinton is going to do? do you know -- >> can i promise you something? i'm going to promise you that i'm going to challenge her on issues that are near and dear to my heart. >> do you know everything she is going to do? >> i know some things. >> we'll be right back. all her aches and pains. and i said "come to class, let's start walking together" and i said "and i bet you money you'll be able to do that senior walk". that day i said "ok it's me and you girl, me and you!" i said "if you need to stop, there's a bench we'll just hang out in the shade." she said "absolutely not! we are going to finish this race!" and we were the last ones in, but you know what? we finished the race. and she goes "desiree, i'll never quit walking. ever" t-mobile covers your business in more places. so you can take your business just about anywhere. plus, our extended range lte reaches twice as far and it's 4x better in buldings. get more done in more places. switch your business to t-mobile@work today. we went over the last segment. diamond and silk are here, the ultimate trump supporters. what did you love about don't? >> first of all, i love the fact that, you know, our man that just left the stage, he did a phenomenal job, pastor darrell scott. i love our future vice president. he did a phenomenal job. and eric trump, oh, my god, i see some future politicians. >> what about ted cruz? >> he really irritated me. he's going mess around and his whole career is going to be over. you don't use donald trump's platform at the convention and i don't know what he's trying to do. check your ego at the door. but you don't do that. >> we just had a very interesting conversation, tough conversation. but maybe out of this convention, the country will start having conversations like this without judging. >> absolutely. we do need to have a conversation, a serious conversation on both sides of the aisle when it comes to police and our black men. and i always say this here, you know, sometimes with the police officers, maybe they tend to overreact because they are afraid. but what we've got to do instead of marching in the streets, let's come to the table. the tables are not out there in the streets, they're inside. >> thank you, ladies. that's it for us tonight. we'll see you back here beginning at 1:00 a.m. "early start with john berman and christine romans" begins in just a moment. thank you for watching. ♪ is it a force of nature? 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Transcripts For MSNBCW Up With David Gura 20191006

biden on a candidacy facing challenges on all sides. senator bernie sanders goes back to burlington to recuperate ahead of the next debate. this week the supreme court hears three major cases on workplace discrimination. actress and activist laverne cox will join us for those arguments. a. scott bolden, former chair of the national association pact and the d.c. democratic party. host and professor on the barnard college, president of the media group as well. christina greer, professor at political science and author. joining us is a white house reporter for the atlantic. when president clinton faced impeachment there was a white house war room running at full tilt. with this president, there was no war room. instead, president trump is in the white house with a remote control in one hand and his cell phone in the other. he is casting aspersions and a growing number of discipline station officials are ensnared. rick perry urged him to make the call back in july. the president told house republicans he did not want to make that phone call. a piece in the "washington post" chronicles his conversations with other world leaders. they leave his aids generally horrified. he asked prime minister shinzo abe to nominate him for a nobel prize. he lost his temper when talking to mexico's past president. and the phone call, the one that happened on july 25th. we're learning a lot about what led to the call and what they say about it. the president continues to blur the lines between his own interests and his duties as head of state. america first was the slogan that helped trump win the president she, but he doesn't seem to believe it's the tactic that will help him keep it. peter, let me start with you and your piece from a moment ago. the president talks about how we want to move away cooperating with other countries except he is more than willing to work with oren courage other countries to help him with this task, the political task at hand. >> that's right. just last month we saw him at the united nations, an ode to sovereignty, not taking guidance from other countries. he has always been skeptical of international alliances. yet here what do we see him doing? outsourcing political research to ukraine and china and in 2016 to russia. why is that happening? he doesn't trust his own fbi. we have an fbi. it is located here in the sovereign united states. why not make use of the fbi? he's allowed to do that. >> a. scott bolden, that is the fu fundamental question here. he says he's talking about those in the top. still the attacks come fast and furious. >> it is the conspiracy of this deep state that the president and his allies always talk about. but the more they say it, doesn't make it true. the more he says this was a beautiful phone call doesn't make it true. somehow he thinks if he says it over and over again the people will be convinced or he will talk himself into making it true. in this case the irony is the diplomats and the intelligence community that he disdains, undermined, that he believes putin over them and their work, that he has given them the impeachment ammunition now than writing and verbalizing it to they're going to use to impeach him. it's beyond politics. the house and senate -- or rather the house has enough to impeach him right now. as a former prosecutor and white collar crime attorney, absolutely now. they will fill it out and they will do depositions or try to. if not, you dump it into an obstruction charge and say we tried. then you take the vote and put it on the senate side. then the senate gop will be on trial, trump will be on trial, and american values will be on trial. and god bless america. hopefully the senate gop will do the right thing. >> there's a point about repetition. we have heard a lot about the bidens and ukraine. we can bludgeon people over and over again with this wrong stick. there is a reputation we have seen over the course of the last week in open air calling for foreign governments to assert pressure on foreign governments to undertake these investigations of his political rivals. what do you make of that? >> he did this when he took out a full page in the "new york times". he went through every single media outlet and talked to every journalist they could to say they're guilty. he started a birther movement and made it a movement. even after he was proven wrong. he can never admit he was wrong so he keeps saying, no, no, no, i'm right. but it has to be some other deep state lie because clearly i don't have the capacity to be incorrect. the problem is, and i agree with scott 100%, the problem that we will run into the republican party in the senate is so scared of this president they have sworn an allegiance not to the united states as citizens or as a nation. they will follow the president and his lies. they will backtrack once he tweets something and says something later in the day. so it will fall upon the senators, republican senators to see if they will uphold their duty as representatives of our nation. >> let me turn to you, peter nicholas, on that point. we were talking about the republican senators. you have looked at the roll he's playing here. we are all familiar with that statement from the president, give me my roy cohn. how much is he representing the presidency verse the president of the united states. . >> we heard him express his dissatisfaction with gahn. he wants loyalists, his own personal lawyer. they are supposed to represent the larger institution and the presidency. not the president the man. if he commits crime, the appropriate tactic for the white house counsel is to stop them, draw attention to them. for the white house counsel, any white house counsel serving trump, how do you deal with that unbearable tension? he wants a loyalist. >> we talk about there being a trump doctrine and that was something that evolved over eight years time for obama. we have figure out what that was. we are in the process of doing that with president trump. yes, there is the america first brand that we were talking about a moment ago. we are getting a clear sense of the nuances of the president's foreign policy. peter nicholas writing how he sees it as a poker game. he is using it in a transactional way. maria, what does this tell you about his overall outlook on the world? >> i have a -- >> she's holding my hand. >> the problem is that the notion of a doctrine where there has been some real thought-out strategy, i don't think there is that, right? if you read that "washington post" article that you were quoting from, everybody in the white house is in a state of oh, my god, what is going on? they are watching as they go to the private personal residence to have these phone calls so he doesn't have the staff around him. it is one whistle-blower so far and so many lambs. so many lambs. and for me i just keep thinking about when we have, as christy said, this is not knew if it's going to be called a doctrine. it's not knew. frankly, democratic strategists, it's like hello, the playbook is right in front of you. i was going to ask you, because you are a political historian, what is the thing? because i'm not a policy person. this is not a surprise that trump does this, that he is going to repeat everything and then we as journalists -- well, i try not to repeat it all again. you know, because it's what have journalists who have operated under authoritarian regimes done in order to avoid this. >> right. . >> so we have three branches of government. i will give you a quick intro to politics. executive, legislative and judicial. and so some people might argue we have four branches, the media being the fourth. when this president came into power i wasn't that concerned. not just the greatest hits, 10 and 51, factions and separation of powers and checks and balances. if you read all the debates that the founding fathers, the framers i call them, were having it's for this very moment. they were so afraid of having this type of executive. so they built in these easter eggs to protect us in checks and balances and separation of powers. now, the reason i am concerned, we have never been weakened in all of our branches simultaneously. historically we have had moments in time where the judiciary has somewhat let us down, or an executive let us down. but we have a hyper partisan judiciary. that is not supposed to be. that is why they are not elected by citizenry. we have never had a authoritarian at this level or a breakdown of the legislative branch where the senate is working for the executive. the judiciary is working for the executive. and you have the house trying to hold it together in a very loose coalition. and the media being called fake news and enemies of the state. >> in a million years they couldn't contemplate donald trump, who wants to be an authoritarian. they didn't contemplate a gop senate who was afraid of not being elected again and an electorate that blindly, 40% of them, back this authoritarian. >> i promise we will get to that. one last question. you see this op-ed in the "washington post" by joe biden, vice president joe biden. we talk about the american people being bludgeoned by the stories of this last week. the tact he is taking. we see the piece in the "new york times" about the level of concern within the campaign. among his allies how he handled this and responded to it. your reaction to the efficacy of what the president has been doing here from vice president biden. >> what we know from biden world, he was reluctant to get into this race because of concern of the impact it would have on his family. hunter biden, his son, could become a target. it was clear from the beginning that this trump campaign, the president himself were going to make him a target. were going to try to draw out or impress upon there was corruption that took place. so biden to some degree knew what he was getting into. i wonder if he knew it would be quite this bad. the normal practice is for the campaign to take the lead here. trump is doing this personally. he is the one driving this message that there is corruption even though there is no substantiated evidence. corruption on the part of biden's family. and that's difficult for biden to absorb. >> peter, always great to speak with you. thank you for joining us on this friday. covers the white house for that magazine joining us on phpz. still ahead, how the biden campaign is responding to the pressure to investigate the front-runner. and we will dive into the actor and actress laverne cox. >> and kurt volker who testified in the house impeachment inquiry. that's ahead. mpeachment inquiry. that's ahead my insurance rates are probably gonna double. but dad, you've got allstate. with accident forgiveness they guarantee your rates won't go up just because of an accident. smart kid. indeed. are you in good hands? nyquifor your worst cold andrful relieflu symptoms, on sunday night and every 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your bleeding risk if you take certain medicines. tell your doctor about all planned medical or dental procedures. eliquis, the number one cardiologist-prescribed blood thinner. ask your doctor if eliquis is what's next for you. announcer: fidelity is redefining value with zero account fees for brokerage accounts. and zero minimums to open an account. at fidelity those zeros really add up. ♪ maybe i'll win ♪ saved by zero aaddiction. how juuline hooked kids and ignited an public health crisis." other news outlets report- juul took $12.8 billion from big tobacco. markets e-cigarettes with kid friendly flavors and uses nicotine to addict them. 5 million kids use e-cigarettes. juul is "following big tobacco's playbook." and now, juul is pushing prop c to overturn e-cigarette protections. vote no on juul. no on big tobacco. no on prop c. >> this is "up". i'm david gura. lawmakers will continue to hold closed door depositions this week. on tuesday, they are scheduled to question gordon sondland, ambassador to the european union, who pushed ukraine to investigate the bidens even though they are not part of the european union. depositions of two other state depositions have yet to be scheduled. before we look at the week to come as they gather steam, let's look back at the week that was. >> adam schiff is exactly why we need term limits in this country. >> i was on the phone call. i was on the phone call. . >> shifty schiff. we don't call him shifty schiff for nothing. a shifty, dishonest guy. >> this praoeuz president of the united states is stooping to a level beneath the president of the united states. >> she hands out subpoenas like they're cookies. here you go. take them. like they're cookies. >> if it were me i would recommend that they start an investigation into the bidens. china should start an investigation into the bidens. >> all of this talk about corruption comes from the most corrupt president we have had in modern history. he is the definition of corruption. >> release of text messages was hugely consequential. someone who knows curt folker, somebody involved in those texts. served with am bass doer volker until last year when ambassador melville left. he explained his decision to leave the foreign service. america first is a sham. i'm curious, first of all, mr. ambassador, what you were thinking as you watched all of this unfold. you saw the text messages brought into daylight, what was going on between these ambassadors, the representatives working in europe. >> david, good morning. and thank you very much for allowing a foreign service perspective to be part of this important discussion. i was almost heartbroken because it seems to me what is going on is rather familiar. i have seen it in other countries, particularly in the russian federation where this fog of lies that comes from the very top just keeps citizens confused as to what the truth is and whether there is any truth. in fact, it is the truth that is the fundamental element that we need to keep our eyes on. and that's been the backbone of the work of diplomacy and the foreign service in particular is, you know, your integrity is the coin of the realm. if you lie, why would anybody want to believe you. . >> i want to ask you about somebody else who has been involved in all of that. bill taylor, the head of mission after the u.s. ambassador to the ukraine was recalled back to washington, d.c. and you see the role that he played through the text messages. very explicitly questioning what was going on both in washington and over in europe. as you talk about the foreign services, as i think about the piece that ambassador burns wrote for the "new york times" just a week ago, how when you look at those assistant secretaries of state, there were i think seven vacancies and only one who is not a political appointee in those positions. what is this, what we have seen over the course of the week, tell us what we have learned the last two years, three years. what's become of the state department in which you spent so much time working? >> well, it goes much farther back than that. in the 19th century if you were well connected and wealthy american you could buy yourself a commission in the army, a colonel or a general. thank goodness for our national security, we got away from that particular model. but sadly that isn't the case with diplomacy where, you know, for a million dollars contributed to the president's inauguration, you could be the u.s. ambassador to the european union and play a diplomat in a very destructive way to our national interests. >> to gordon son land who is a hotelier in portland, oregon. >> ambassador, thank you for joining us. i have a question for you. when we hear from ambassadors and people who worked in the state department, usually they are pretty straightforward. there's not a lot of emotion. and honestly i was very taken by the fact that you looked clearly emotionally distraught as you started to speak with david. can you tell me, tell us a little bit why you are having this deep emotional reaction that we're all seeing in this particular moment. >> believe me, i don't want to be here. i didn't ask for this. but as a citizen, i'm just so deeply concerned with what's going on and with the way we are being governed. and i know we can do better, and we have done better. and, you know, the real fundamental requirement here, and i'm glad curt will be testifying and they will be giving testimony because it's the truth. and you shall know the truth and it should shall make you free is what it says in the bible. i fundamentally believe that. if i can help move toward keeping a focus on the need to discover the grouped facts, what is the truth, i think that's a contribution that might be useful. >> ambassador, stay with us. you will come back a little bit later in the show. i want to read a line from his op-ed when he explained his retirement and his decision to resign. i have no sympathy or understanding for those who remain in government service while claiming to be ignoring or otherwise violating their instructions. we come back here, president trump responds to calls for an impeachment of the aforementioned senator. of the aforementioned senator (gasp) (singsong) budget meeting! sweet. if you compare last quarter to this quarter... various: mmm. it's no wonder everything seems a little better with the creamy taste of philly, made with fresh milk and real cream. full of tasty, good for you ingredients. fresh and filling. so that you too will be full of good. try our new warm grain bowls today. order now on doordash. it's what gives audible there'smembers an edge.ening; it opens our minds, changes our perspective, connects us, and pushes us further. the most inspiring minds, the most compelling stories: audible. seeing what people left behind in the attic. well, saving on homeowners insurance with geico's help was pretty fun too. ahhhh, it's a tiny dancer. they left a ton of stuff up here. welp, enjoy your house. nope. no thank you. geico could help you save on homeowners and renters insurance. this is "up". i'm david gura. one of the members of a quiet chorus of republicans questioned the president's calls for investigations of a political rival is senator mitt romney of utah. he said the president's comments were wrong and appalling which prompted the president of the united states to call for mitt romn romney's impeachment. #impeach mitt romney he wrote on twitter. senator ben sasse criticized the statements in a statement. and ernst and grassley. we were talking about the level of retribution, folks who protest against the president on the republican side can see. here you have mitt romney, first-term senator. a year in. doesn't have a whole lot to lose. he was quibbling but i don't think it was a forceful statement. >> the president viewed members of his party as weak even before he took office. he does not see them as upholding sort of what it means to be a real american. so when mitt romney tip toes into criticism, we see this tweet storm on a weekend. when does he spend time with his family, i wonder. he is literally with the remote control and his phone tweeting about mitt romney serving this nation quite admirably over several decades. these are types of things that also upset the president just because he is so, you know, vastly insecure. so i will pause by saying it doesn't matter if we get a few op-eds or tweets. what will matter when nancy pelosi counts these votes and this moves to actual impeachment, will the republicans stand up for the united states. >> the attack isn't about mitt romney at all. it is about keeping republicans in line and having them be ensnared by trump. he is speaking to not only the constituents of trump, although utah is not a big backer of trump, but his blasting of romney is to keep other gop, house and senate -- >> senators specifically. >> specifically in line. he said they're going to stay in line with me no matter what, no matter what my bad deeds are. he is trying to keep the senators in line. he doesn't care about mitt romney. >> william blount of tennessee back in the 18th century. >> and needed a super majority to do that. >> protests in iraq and hong kong escalating. how worried should we be about what is being prioritized and ignored by this president. d ignored by this president. ty, we present limu emu & doug with this key to the city. 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[ applause and band playing ] only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪ if you wonder what is being neglected with all these huge issues we face, both foreign and domestic, well, the president obviously is totally consumed with attacking his opponents. you know, we're fortunate we haven't had a major crisis of the magnitude of a 9/11 attack. god forbid we have another one. but i worry about that. >> that stuck with me on wednesday night from cnn. james clapper earlier this week and what the president is not focusing on. late saturday, the working level nuclear talks in sweden between pyongyang and washington dropped off, dashing hopes for a stalemate between the two countries. ambassador james melville. mr. ambassador, i want you to react to that. the last part of the answer is particularly sobering. yes, there are things the u.s. is not involved with because they are not staffed to do it. but there is the prospect of something unplanned or unforeseen and a question of our ability to react to that. your reaction to what james clapper said? >> director clapper is a very wiseman. in fact, it is something that we should all be concerned about. it's also something our adversaries are well aware of. when the leader of the united states is so easy to distract by either flattery or some other provocative activity, it is a threat to the rest of us and it becomes even more important that professionals are in place to look out for the national security interests of the nation. >> how worried are you at this point when you look at the state of the state department, when you look at that bloomberg news reporting how the staff will be reduced by this president. how worried are you about the apparatus as a whole? we talk about this a lot broadly. there isn't adequate staffing, things aren't where they should be. i want to get a gut check from you when it comes to conducting foreign policy. >> well, i left the state department a year ago, but i'm a pretty close observer. i'm deeply disappointed in the performance of the secretary. secretary pompeo should be standing up for the interests of diplomacy and for the foreign service. and if you look at the example of what happened to ambassador ya von vich, the way she was pushed out about her departure were not true, as it turns out. when secretary pompeo in athens the other day implied that we need to find out the truth about what happened in 2016 and with russian involvement and what it actually was, the secretary had been the director of central intelligence during the initial stages. he certainly knows better. he certainly knows what happened and the threat that the activities of foreign actors to our democracy is. >> maria, that is the key point here, what he just said. mike pompeo was the head of the cia. what's the game here? if anybody knows completely what happened in 2016, which we all know to be true, what's he doing? what's the game here? >> boy, watching pompeo is so disconcerting. we know what he was doing in terms of benghazi, saying we're going to take on hillary clinton. and so i'm thinking about -- i just got a call yesterday from a story i'm following. a young man who left honduras, the third time he left. twice to the united states, sadly deported both times even though he has a case. he said i'm in a shelter in mexico. now i have had to ask for asylum here. because they are trying to kill me in honduras. and i'm thinking this administration thinks when they are saying all of these things that the people in honduras are deciding whether or not to leave depending on what's coming out of the white house, there is a humanitarian crisis going on, geopolitical. it has to do with climate change, foreign actors. and there's no discussion about it. and just -- this is not going to go away. private prisons will now be detaining children. >> real quick, do you feel safe in america under this administration? when you wake up in the morning, we all have families. do you feel safe? because i don't feel safe. i feel something, but i don't feel safe. even republican presidents i felt safe. and if something disastrous happens, does this administration, is this administration capable of protecting us, keeping us safe and fixing whoever does harm to us? i'm not convinced we are there yet. >> mr. ambassador, last question. going back to the story about the diplomats going to the hill to be deposed. you brought up secretary of state mike pompeo. he says he doesn't want his staff to be bullied. they will not cooperate immediately with the subpoenas. scott bolden and i were talking during the break. i think a big question is how confident are you that they will provide all the information they need to provide to lawmakers? ambassador volker provided the text messages straight to the committees. they could see them. the others i gather provided them to the state department, another ring through which lawmakers have to go to get the details. what is going to tell you they are telling the truth to lawmakers in these coming days? >> well, a non-politicized nonpartisan foreign service is really important to the national security of the united states. and the fact that the foreign service now is being put between conflicting instructions and guidance from from the secretary of state and their constitutional responsibility toward the legislative branch and legislative branch's making sure there is accountable and oversight being so vitally important means the foreign service is being abused. you know, this is a -- this is so important. we are so much better than this. and history is watching. people will remember for a very long time how we dealt with this situation. >> mr. ambassador, thank you very much. he started his career in the mid-80s and now in charleston, south carolina. ambassador melville, thank you for your time on this sunday. why mitch mcconnell is backtracking on impeachment. now he is seeing it as an opportunity. now he is seeing it as an opportunity. new place to explore. jill has entresto, a heart failure pill that helped keep people alive and out of the hospital. don't take entresto if pregnant; it can cause harm or death to an unborn baby. don't take entresto with an ace inhibitor or aliskiren or if you've had angioedema with an ace or arb. the most serious side effects are angioedema, low blood pressure, kidney problems, or high blood potassium. ask your doctor about entresto. where to next? 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>> this is "up". i'm david gura. that was jeffrey rosen, expert on constitutional law from philadelphia. he raised that crucial question can we trust the u.s. senate to evaluate impeachment neutrally as the founders expected? mitch mcconnell has said he would have no choice but to hold a trial if the house were to impeach president trump. now he is using it to raise money for his re-election campaign. >> nancy pelosi is in the clutches of a left wing mob. they finally convince her to impeach the president. all of you know your constitution. the way that impeachment stops is when a senate majority, with me as majority leader. and i need your help. please contribute before the deadline. >> yes. there would be a trial. the question is how long that trial might be, how long this might play out? >> we know mitch mcconnell has shown that he completely works for the president, not for the american people. i mean, this is what is so genius about the president when he first got elected. he not only initially tried to cozy up to republicans. he put the vast majority of their wives in position. >> elaine,000. >> she is a cabinet member. they are linked to president, as are their financial lives. so when mitch mcconnell says we all know our constitution, most of his supporters probably haven't read the constitution. because had they read the constitution they would know in article 1 when laying out the legislative branch, he knows he has a duty to make sure he evaluates the facts. as scott has said, there have been facts on facts on facts on this impeachment. he has shown time and time again, most of the republican senators are looking at they know they have won constituent they are worried about and that is the president of the united states. >> do you agree with that? >> i agree with that. be careful now. mitch mitch connell is a master of the senate. recently he suggested, i have seen reports where maybe there won't be a trial. there is a motion to dismiss in the judicial branch but there is a motion to to dismiss with the senate trials in hearings. they filed one against clinton, the democrats did. but it was three weeks into the trial. don't sleep on mitch mcconnell thinking if he has a simple majority when the articles of impeachment comes to the senate that he files for a motion to dismiss, if you will. if he believes he has a super majority, those impeachment articles can, it will be subject to debate among law professors, but he can call for a vote the articles could be summarily dismissed. that's a possibility. not saying it's a probability yet. but then where do we go next? >> i find him a real curiosity when he is speaking. >> i like when you see real curiosity. so many moments where he has all but vanished from the scene. where is mitch? we can't find mitch? and he pops up in a facebook ad trying to raise money for his campaign. what does that tell you, though? yes, he is working some service of this service, the service being the head of his party. him being a matter tactician when it comes to the u.s. senate, what is his presence and lack of presence tell you about the way he operates? >> it feels very slippery. it just feels very slippery. >> yes, it does. >> your ears perk up. then it goes down the way side. i keep on having these images. one, of course, demographics in the united states. it's not destiny. but we do know what's happening in terms of demographics and who is going to be voting and the fact that the majority will be people of color soon. how does that play out with the republican party. but i have the image of -- and i don't like saying this. but will we see republicans being led out in handcuffs? i keep going back to watergate and thinking of people in the cabinet behind bars. i'm not saying that about mitch mcconnell. right now watching they're so in the moment. and i'm thinking 10 years down the line what is this going to look like. >> very quickly, last word to you. >> i think, though, when you talked about this during the break, the real key is what happens after this? if our democracy survives, where do we go from here? how do we evaluate our media? how do we recover from four or eight years of this admin vacation where we see the breakdown of our institutions and essentially aeraser of norm. >> he represents another whistle-blower. and kelly o'donnell conforms that's the case. you saw the piece in the "new york times" yesterday about the prospect of there being a second whistle-blower waiting in the wings. in that piece for abc news saying they do not know if the second whistle-blower is the same one referred to in the "new york times" piece. to recap, mark zaid, attorney for the first whistle-blower saying he is representing another whistle-blower. we will continue that story throughout the day here on msnbc. thanks all of you for joining me on set this hour. up next in the next hour, behind the scenes reporting on how the biden campaign is looking to take on the unsubstantiated claims. and laverne cox will talk about the landmark supreme court cases that will be argued this week. s that will be argued this week. try new pepto liquicaps for fast relief and ultra-coating. ♪nausea, heartburn, indigestion, upset stomach, diarrhea.♪ get powerful relief with new pepto bismol liquicaps. 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"it's the easiest, because it's the cheesiest" kraft. for the win win. that's where i feel normal. having an annuity tells me my retirement is protected. learn more at retire your risk dot org. but super poligrip gives him a tight seal. snacking can mean that pieces get stuck under mike's denture. to help block out food particles. so he can enjoy the game. super poligrip. aaddiction. how juuline hooked kids and ignited an public health crisis." other news outlets report- juul took $12.8 billion from big tobacco. markets e-cigarettes with kid friendly flavors and uses nicotine to addict them. 5 million kids use e-cigarettes. juul is "following big tobacco's playbook." and now, juul is pushing prop c to overturn e-cigarette protections. vote no on juul. no on big tobacco. no on prop c. breaking news that mark zaid, the firm who represents the whistle-blower, now representing a second whistle-blower. we will check in with kelly o'donnell for more on that. senior editor and writer for "the daily beast". katie glik wrote a piece for the "new york times". she's a political reporter for the "new york times". eugene scott also a political reporter for cross town rival "washington post". and moody-mills democracyish. we wait to talk to kelly o'donnell about this whistle-blower. you talked to folks in the orbit of joe biden, about the level of concerns about how he and his campaign have responded that have been cast upon him. >> so this is an extraordinarily high stakes moment for joe biden. his advantage that he has seen in the polls for months has really started to slip as elizabeth warren rises in the polls. we saw his fund-raising numbers, they trailed elizabeth warren and bernie sanders. with the conflict and controversy involving president president trump does offer a snapshot into what a general election might look like. there is a lot of focus on how joe biden is responding and disagreement among his allies and the best way to do it. are you out there every day forcefully pushing back. do you pivot to policy. we are seeing both play out. folks have been concerned about not seeing them enough. >> we have all talked about that relationship, who is calling the shots on a political campaign like this. as you talk to those folks, what is the sense you have. wrestling with so much personal tragedy in his past and has engaged with this on his own terms in the past. how much is he deciding how much he and the campaign want to engage with what the president has been doing? >> ultimately, he is the candidate. it is his campaign. he is very much involved in this. on the one hand, he started this campaign pitching himself as the candidate, best position to take on donald trump. for months we saw him working to try and cast this as a two-person race, trying to stay out of the fray of the democratic primary, trying to keep his focus on donald trump. now there's new complications, this is someone fiercefully protective of his family. we have seen his response on a number of occasions the last year not wanting to get out ahead of congressional investigations and deferring there. so you see all of these competing instincts coming to a head at this very high-stakes moment for joe biden. . >> also, just a number of stories swirling here. there is what's happening with the president. there were also the fund-raising numbers and polling numbers as well. i want to get your sense of causation and causality and how that is contribute to go it seems like a cloud. i don't know how long it will last or sit over the campaign. help me on how those integrate together. >> we know this is one of the biggest democratic fields we have seen in history. and many voters who already had questions about biden, especially those who voted for trump before and are looking for an alternative, just the conversations are making them reconsider if biden is the best person they believe should replace trump in the oval office. i think one thing i have talked to some voters who have expressed frustration with the speed in which biden responded and how he has responded, it gives a perception of he is not aware of the moment we are currently in. i believe there was a quote where he said that he was surprised the president went after his family. anyone surprised that president trump would attack you personally and this low has not been paying attention to president trump. and part of the reason biden believes he's the best person for this moment is he has confidence in republicans that they will do the right thing that they will work with democrats. we haven't seen that. we may have seen a different response this time. they haven't come out and attacked trump the way biden would need to to stay ahead. >> danielle i want to get you in on this. there was this impulse to position joe biden as the general election arrival or presumptive arrival to president trump. there is an opportunity here to do that. as the president continues to do that, he is beagle sraeuted as a result of that. he is being seen at parody by this president. how does the vice president use that more to his advantage going forward here? should he? how can you do that and push back on the allegations. >> i think what joe biden to me is doing wrong is the fact that he is being very moderate. not in his politics but his reaction to donald trump. what eugene said is absolutely right. the fact is anybody who would say, and he wrote this in his op- op-ed, he would say he is surprised donald trump would do anything. we are so far past surprised with donald trump. and you need to understand the moment that you're in. the idea that he thinks that there are still republicans that are good, that are going to do the right thing, that are patriots. i'm like what are you watching? what are you reading? i understand that he has 30 years of public service that he has done. but we are living in a different time. and he needs to be reacting to that and not his hopes and dreams of the past. . >> let me turn to the son of scrant scranton, the senator from pennsylvania who is a supporter of joe biden. senator casey, let me start with the thread we are pulling on here if i could. that is that various concern in some camps, vice president joe biden is out of touch with these times. he sees himself as the guy who could go up against donald trump. this is something that has come up time and time again during the course of this campaign, a sense of him being out of touch with this political moment or unable to engage with the way politics has changed as a result of us having a president of the united states. >> david, first and foremost, it is clear that joe biden is focused on what americans are focused on. there's no question that people are concerned about what the president, the conduct of the president. he's asking for a favor and the next page bringing up joe biden. the american people understand that fundamentally. but they also understand that we've got to make sure that not only candidates but congress is focused on their concerns. like the issues the vice president laid out today in his op-ed. education, climate change, gun violence and health care. a lot of americans know joe biden well. they know his heart. they know his character. they want them to focus on their lives as much as washington is focusing right now on impeachment. so i think he is very much connected to what most people are talking about, maybe not as much on what washington is talking about. >> senator casey has been thrust into this story and impeachment investigation. i want to give another update as we await a report on the white house. nbc news can confirm that the attorney representing the first whistle-blower represents multiple officials who will be making disclosures to the investigator general. what is your message? you're in the jury pool, i suppose. you haven't been impaneled yet. your reaction to that and your message to these other whistle-blowers we know are waiting in the wings. >> well, first and foremost, we have to focus, especially the house is doing this now? focus on the conduct of the president as i just wanted to in the transcript, which is clear as day. it is an abuse of power. it is a textbook case of abuse of power. everyone knows that. at the same time, we have to make sure those who come forward are not only heard from but are protected. the president or any member of congress who threatens a whistle-blower or creates a less safe environment for a whistle-blower is breaking the law. and we have got to make sure we pay attention to that. but right now we're seeing more and more evidence that not only with the president's public abuse of power when he brought up china the other day, as another country that should investigate his political opponent, but that there may be other instances here that we don't know about. unfortunately we will be hearing more and more about abuse of power by the president of the united states. >> going back to this piece in the "new york times" katie glik wrote with alex burns, she was able to talk to the two senators from delaware. i saw a stunning admission from chris coons that, yes, joe biden knew that his family was going to play a role in the campaign, that they were likely to be attacked by the president, as the campaign goes on. senator coons said he is surprised to the degree in which this happen. katie, correct me if i said said that incorrectly. you know the man. you know his personal history, the tragedies he endured. are you surprised to the degree in which this has happened the last few weeks? >> well, look, i think everyone knows the way president trump operates. when president trump approaches an issue or a debate, he usually engages in four things. fear and smear, demonize and divide. he is doing a smear right now. most people thought he would get to this smear with no basis in fact, against joe biden. maybe later in the campaign. the only surprise might be that it came this early. and it only came because he was under attack. he's very good, as you know, at distracting attention. but joe biden is ready for this. he spent his whole life fighting against bullies, whether it's bullies on the world stage like vladimir putin, the person president trump will not confront. but i think joe biden is ready for this. and i know there's a lot of back and forth abo. i think he's doing real well. he had one of his best fund-raising days of the entire campaign this week. i think he thats a strong campaign. sometimes in washington we overanalyze some of the details or the metrics. >> i'm going to tease this out more. i had a guest yesterday who said why doesn't he sit down and give more interviews. he gave a big speech in reno. if you were counseling him, is that something you think he should do. >> i'm not sure i agree with that. the vice president, you saw his op-ed today which makes it clear where he stands with the conduct of president trump. he gave at least one or two major speeches on it. at some point we have to just allow the process to move forward. have the house conduct its impeachment inquiry as they are charged to do under the constitution. i'm in the senate. we don't have it in front of us yet. if you're a candidate for president, people expect you to demonstrate leadership on the campaign trail by the focus you have on education, health care, climate change, issues that affect their lives. he's doing that, and i think the american people understand that. on health care, while we're all talking about these impeachment issues which are critically important to the country and our national security, the republican party, led by this president, are trying to tear away health care from tens of millions of people based on the lawsuit they support which will destroy health care in america, which could be decided at any moment. they are sabotaging the existing system, the exchanges, and they are trying to cut medicare and medicaid like no republican has ever cut. vice president biden knows that. health care will be a central issue. and the president and his party is out to destroy the health care that you have, rip away all the protections for pre-existing conditions. >> i'm going to turn to kelly o'donnell, again, month has done reporting on the law firm representing a second whistle-blower. get us up to speed what we know at this point >> reporter: well, one of the things that has been at the heart of this, david, the president has tried to under cut the correct and knowledge of the first person, unidentified, unnamed individual who filed this formal complaint. so the law firm that represents that person now tells me they have multiple officials that are also represented by the firm and have spoken to the inspector general of the intelligence community and there is more direct knowledge. we know whistle-blower 1 had not heard the call, for example, and was not directly firsthand involved in the events regarding the president's contact on -- in july of this year with the ukrainian president. so having additional officials would potentially presuming they're all in line with what they are saying, corroboration for the first whistle-blower. that could be very significant as people are trying to challenge the value of the information brought forward and if having the standing of that person meets what some of the people in the white house and some of the allies of the president have been saying that it's not really a whistle-blower because of not having the first hand knowledge. think of this as a way to bolster the information that's brought forward. and very significantly that other officials feel comfortable taking this career risk to come forward with information. whistle-blowers are protected under the law. their identity and protected from retaliation on their jobs for a reason, whether it's government or corporate america. whistle-blowers have historically been vulnerable to criticism and to attack, frankly, when they come forward. so having additional officials with knowledge of the events around the ukraine call is significant. and it will make it harder for the white house to challenge the credibility of these individuals and at this point we don't know what sort of piece of this they may have if they have knowledge that expands what is already in the fact base that we have or if it simply corroborates what was known in the first complaint. those are all the questions that will come, david. at this point the law firm says they will not have any further comment. these are obviously sensitive issues. capitol hill will be interested in this. and michael atkinson, who spent a lot of time on capitol hill friday, talking about his evaluation of the whistle-blower complaint. if he has now been in touch with other officials as well who could corroborate parts of this. it seems significant on the facts and politically seems like more weight going against the president who tried to dismiss this. >> kelly o'donnell, you're so good at telling me what i don't know and doing it politely. we hear this and we think about the piece that was in the "new york times" by adam goldman and michael schmidt. that whistle-blower in the wings had conversations with atkinson, inspector general for the intelligence community. i gather you're saying we don't know in this group of whistle-blower that law firm represents. we don't know if they have spoken yet to the inspector general. are we right about that? >> reporter: it's hard to know if the figure described by another news outlet is the same individual. what we can say is in the area of this sort of national security law, the attorney team, and there are multiple lawyers involved representing whistle-blower 1 now has among their clients additional officials who they're characterizing as whistle blowers. so is it a second or more? they're using the term multiple. what we don't yet know is what pieces of story might they corroborate from the july call. do they have new information? is their type of job description providing some other window into the event? those are the big questions. it's our understanding that the whistle-blowers, as defined by the legal team, have in fact, spoken to the inspector general. and that makes sense because in order to be labeled a whistle-blower under the law, you have to be in the system. so speaking to the inspector general would help to sort of trigger that protection. so we know at least at this point these are officials who have provided information in an official chain of events and not just individuals on the outside who haven't told their story yet. calling them whistle-blowers, they have to have provided information in the formal pathway that whistle-blowers do. that might sound complicated. the key thing is there is more than one person willing to put their job on the line to say this is something that happened. i have information. . >> all right. we will come back and talk about this on the break. i apologize with all the breaking news. much more on this breaking news. multiple whistle phroers being represented in connection to the inspector general's august report. but first a president without a war room but on the warpath. how the white house is dealing with the impeachment behind the scenes. ment behind the scesen if you have postmenopausal osteoporosis and a high risk for fracture now might not be the best time to ask yourself are my bones strong? life is full of make or break moments. that's why it's so important to help reduce your risk of fracture with prolia®. only prolia® is proven to help strengthen and protect bones from fracture with 1 shot every 6 months. do not take prolia® if you have low blood calcium, are pregnant, are allergic to it or take xgeva® serious allergic reactions, like low blood pressure trouble breathing; throat tightness; face, lip, or tongue swelling rash; itching; or hives have happened. 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today. aaddiction. how juuline hooked kids and ignited an public health crisis." other news outlets report- juul took $12.8 billion from big tobacco. markets e-cigarettes with kid friendly flavors and uses nicotine to addict them. 5 million kids use e-cigarettes. juul is "following big tobacco's playbook." and now, juul is pushing prop c to overturn e-cigarette protections. vote no on juul. no on big tobacco. no on prop c. welcome back to "up" on msnbc. the firm who is representing the first whistle-blower now says it is representing multiple whistle-blowers. margaret, your reaction to this news. last break we were talking about the degree to which the president cast a persians and calling credibility into doubt. >> right. >> how does this change from the colleagues from nbc, abc and others are coming forward in a corroborative way? >> one of the things the media needs to keep in mind as we go forward with this, president trump and his surrogates are going to trash the whole idea of a whistle-blower and really cast a persians on it. and that's part of what the media has to do, is set people straight about what are the rules about protecting whistle phroers. what is the role of these folks and to kind of push back against the disinformation campaign we have seen and we will see more of. >> i saw you nodding as kelly was talking about who can be a whistle-blower, the protections afforded to him or her as well. your reaction? >> we know the first has a background in the cia. you have these stphaoubinstitut fbi, cia, nypd. they are the ones who gather the information, part of the intelligence community. now you have the president of the united states or republicans, ron johnson is out saying the fbi and the cia can never be trusted. it tugs at their coattails. i'm not going to let this person be on their own. i want to be part of this too. sort of a from terpbt if you will. >> senator bob casey is still with us. react to what was quoted there. there is a stain on the fbi or cia. they can't be trusted. there is this deep state happening here. there is a sanctity that dates back to the founding of this country. how worried are you about the integrity of the process. that being you have a president who is calling the whole thing into doubt. >> david, i think there are a lot of republican members of congress who have to ask a basic question, are you going to serve the country or be a lap dog for a president. it's as simple as that. senator romney is being very clear about how egregious and unlawful, and i'm using my words, the conduct of this president. a lot of republicans have been his lap dogs for a long time. they have to ask a very basic question. they don't have to draw conclusions today. but in the end, they're going to have to make a determination about the conduct of this president and examine their conscious, or they should, whether it's the fbi or intelligence community, people who put their lives at risk for the american people on a regular basis. these apart people who sit behind desks every day. they work on behalf of the american people. every institution makes mistakes. but they only think about the american people. they are not thinking about a politician, election or how they can advance their personal political agenda. republicans have to ask where they stand with regard to unlawful conduct and whether or not they will support the institutions that keep us safe from enemies around the world and from enemies and those who would do as harm here at home. that is fundamental to our country. >> katie, how is this resonating on the campaign? how to talk about this issue publicly, talk about the claims, publicly talk about whatever rudy giuliani and the president have said. you write so well about joe biden, the institutionalist. there must be therein an impulse to speak out, to harry the president criticize longstanding members of the government, people who filled these jobs in civil service and the security side of things. yet is he holding back there? >> taking a step back and the way he responded both on this issue and also with the mueller investigation, it has been to defer to that institution, to tkoeps, the congressional investigations. certainly the last couple of weeks we have seen vice president biden perhaps come out more forcefully on the impeachment question, speak a little bit more openly about that than perhaps we have in the past. no doubt it is a complicated issue. taking a step back and looking at what this does to the 2020 campaign at large. on one front it injects a serious degree of uncertainty and risk for a number of candidates in terms of how this ends up playing out. for some of the lower polling candidates, it deprives a lot of them of oxygen. that is something you hear from a lot of campaigns. joe biden has a platform to respond to that. elizabeth warren continues to have a platform. sanders still has a strong base and strong fund-raising. he has a platform as well. for some of the other candidates hoping for breakout moments and need to add ox citizen, that becomes that much harder. >> turning back to you and something kelly o'donnell said in the last block, yes, the law firm says they represent multiple whistle-blowers. you write so well about transparency, for politicians to be trance patiesparentransparen transparent. we don't know the identity him or her, such as the way the system is supposed to work. >> that's right. >> and yet when you have these whispering about the voracity of what he or she is saying, let me understand who you are, that right you have to the this and what we know. how do we navigate going forward? >> this is a really delicate balance for the media i think. i reject the skwrd we must publish every single thing we know. >> so you were critical of the "times" doing that? >> i understand the argument for publishing. i would have been more circumspect if i had to make that call, and i'm glad i didn't have to make that call. evens editor i didn't have to comment on it. we need to keep in mind that people are taking a risk. there are rules around whistle blowing. people are hungry for information. we have to walk a careful line. >> pete nichols was here yesterday. and he said that all of light being cast is going to encourage others to go forward. raisings the "spectre" of treason. he thought there might be comfort in this happening. is that what you think we're seeing today? we have this news, multiple folks coming forward represented by the firms as would-be whistle blowers. >> we would certainly hope so. most americans think president trump is the most divisive president in history. he has tried to frame everyone's criticism of him in they just don't like me. the reality is whether that's true or not, what people need to ask themselves is what are they blowing a whistle about? not everything is about whether you're on the trump train or not. there are ethics, morals, and things that should be done when you're leading the country. all americans deeply invested in the well-being of this country should know if we are being violated. when we see multiple whistle-blowers coming out, not everyone at the trump white house doesn't like trump. there are quite a few there who don't. but there are things we need to know if multiple people know, they should be making it public. and everyone regardless on where they stand should want to encourage that. >> thank you very much for joining us. my thanks to bob casey as well. and we will play ron johnson, the senator. up next, multiple whistle blowers in conjunction with the phone call president trump made with his counterpart in ukraine. we'll be right back. n ukraine. we'll be right back. ♪ limu emu & doug hour 36 in the stakeout. as soon as the homeowners arrive, we'll inform them that liberty mutual customizes home insurance, so they'll only pay for what they need. your turn to keep watch, limu. wake me up if you see anything. [ snoring ] [ loud squawking and siren blaring ] only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪ the president betrayed his oath of office. he is engaged in serious wrongdoing. the administration, without justification, withheld $391 million in military aid from a vulnerable ukraine. the president then pressure said a foreign leader to interfere in the 2020 elections and target an american citizen for political gain. that is textbook abuse of power. >> that is just a few moments ago on abc this week. the law firm that represents the first whistle-blower now represents another. let me talk to you, danielle. let me bring you in on this point. people have said the evidence is there in plain sight. we have what the president said after the phone call in terms of calling out to china saying things in plain daylight. how much does the second whistle-blower matter? we're talking about corroboration here as the story continues to develop? how much does that matter in light of what we already know? >> i think it matters a lot. we want to see a pattern being informed here, this president is corrupt, he has been running a criminal operation, people have circled the wagons to make sure that he can continue to do what he is doing against the best interest of the american people. having multiple whistle-blowers coming out saying, oh, my god, do these people have a conscious? are they going to do what's right for the american people, even if that means risking a lot? right now they are risking a lot. to be a whistle-blower is to have a target on your back by donald trump. what makes me most concerned is not the nasty things he says or tweets or what have you. what makes me worried are the people that he is talking to. that donald trump is whistle-blowing too, his unhinged followers. month knows what they will do. who knows how they will react. those are the people i'm most concerned about. having a pattern of them coming out, and i hope there are not one, two, five, ten, i hope there are a lot of them that come forward and saying i'm not going down with the trump "titanic". i'm getting off the ship now. i'm going to save myself. >> how do you see this playing out? we had the first whistle-blower. a lot from that complaint. i presume we will learn more about the complaint in the coming days here. you have the chairman of the intelligence committee adam schiff trying to navigate all of this. he is now in the driver's seat trying to command what's going forward. now having another claim presumably when it will be by the inspector general when it gets to the hill. >> any person who is a defendant, whether it's in something considered criminal. it's like the more people that start coming out against you, you know, that is corroborating evidence. that's witnesses. you might have the second whistle-blower say i heard the call and explains it in his complaint. now you have a second person. is it the same? and if you have a third or fourth, i don't know. as people keep coming forward, you have a complaint that is corroborated. you have a story that has, you know, the american people being like, okay, maybe something did happen. you have congressional leaders being, okay, there's three or four. i have multiple people's evidence. they are all categorizing it in a similar fashion. it becomes harder to push up against. >> we know from that complaint that the first whistle-blower laid out who was privy to the conversations, who was aware of all of this. it is something they have said time and time again he was provided with a clear road map going forward here. this would just add more detail to what he has. >> absolutely. people will want to know who else knew and how high up are they? we learned out later mike pompeo was on the call. mike pence was more aware what happened before it became public. so people will want to know, is this just about donald trump acting in a way that should raise concern among the american public, or are there other people high up in the government in this white house that have been trusted to be of service to the public first and foremost that may be behaving in a way that raises concern. this is something as we move into the 2020 campaign and people who voted for trump before, who are looking for another option, at least not looking to maybe vote at all or forcing themselves to ask themselves do i want four more years of this. can i take any more of this? many of them will say no. >> we know that the law firm representing the first whistle-blower is representing multiple whistle-blowers. we are continuing to cover this throughout the morning on msnbc. when we come back, a former federal prosecutor will join us. that's coming up next. deral pro. that's coming up next. but dad, you've got allstate. with accident forgiveness they guarantee your rates won't go up just because of an accident. smart kid. indeed. are you in good hands? we're following this breaking news this morning. the attorney for the first whistle-blower now saying he represents multiple whistle-blowers. the attorney's office releasing a statement saying i can confirm that my firm and my team represent multiple whistle-blowers in in connection to the august 12th disclosure to the intelligence community inspector general. also the attorney says the second whistle-blower has firsthand knowledge of trump's call with the president of ukraine. joining us in new york, glen kirs kirschner. he has firsthand knowledge of that conversation. this has been rightly or wrongly that president trump has talked about. he is using that to cast doubt or a sperbspersions on this individual. you can come back to what the president is saying. >> when you say rightly or wrongly. we have firsthand knowledge based on the summary of the phone call. but that doesn't stop the president for grasping for some criticism. firsthand knowledge will be important. so when we see the second whistle-blower come forward and we learn what he or she has to say, let's see if it corroborates what the first whistle-blower has said, see if it corroborates the summary, not the transcript but the summary of the phone call. . >> yeah. >> but you know what, there's strength in numbers. i can tell you, david, as a former prosecutor, when i would go into court with one witness, you can bet the defense will focus like a laser beam on trying to discredit that witness. you are untruthful. you had no opportunity to be in a position to see what you claim you saw. you are biased. you have a motive -- you have a grudge against the defendant. when you have two, it becomes far more difficult to do that persuasively. now, when you have two, the defense shifts to it's it's a conspiracy. the two people got together. they made it up. they both have a grudge. more so if you have three, four, five. now it is a grand conspiracy. but grand suspiciouses don't hold together particularly well. i think we all sense that maybe the whistle-blower flood tkpaeuts agates are opening. if i am a career civil servant and i come forward and you start criticizing me and aing taing me unfairly, well, my colleagues are going to step up because they're in the same position. this may be the beginning of something really important. >> last question to you, the vagary in the term multiple whistle-blowers, leaving the term open for how many might be there. you worked for the stphptor general. what about the role he is playing now?inspector general. what about the role he is playing now? they had interfaced with michael atkinson before, he had interviewed that individual. help me understand the role he will play going forward. >> the role of any inspector general is supposed to be a separate, independent office inside an organization. to really get at any misconduct that's going on. and i'll tell you, michael atkinson and i overlapped for 10 years from 2006 to 2016. now, i was on the violent crimes side, he was on fraud and public corruption side of our practice. you i'll tell you, we have many long-time friends and colleagues in common. i have spoken with all of them recently. they all reinforced what i saw firsthand, which he is a head down, working his cases thoughtfully, ethically, methodically, diligently, and when other people in the office had thorny issues, particularly thorny ethical issues, they're going to walk into michael atkinson's office to try to get the right answer. >> always good to talk to somebody who knows the principles. my thanks to you. a fast-moving forward. appreciate your forbearance with that as well. the supreme court could hear arguments in three places. a major decision on workplace that would affect not just lgbtq but everybody. laverne cox will join me next. larnvee cox will join me next. horsepower... ...is more horsepower. (engines rev) with dodge power dollars buy any challenger, charger, or durango and get ten bucks cash allowance for every one horsepower. going back to the doctor just for a shot. with neulasta onpro... ...patients get their day back... ...to be with... ... family... ...or just to sleep in. strong chemo can put you at risk of serious infection. in a key study... ...neulasta reduced the risk of infection from 17%... ...to 1%... ...a 94% decrease. neulasta onpro is designed to deliver... ...neulasta the day after chemo... ...and is used by most patients today. >> always good to talk to but everybody. patients >> always good to talk to but everybody. receiving strong chemotherapy. do not take neulasta if you're allergic to it or neupogen (filgrastim). an incomplete dose could increase infection risk. ruptured spleen, sometimes fatal as well as serious lung problems, allergic reactions, kidney injuries and capillary leak syndrome... ...have occurred. report abdominal or shoulder tip pain, trouble breathing... ... or allergic reactions to your doctor right away in patients with sickle cell disorders, serious, sometimes... ...fatal crises can occur. the most common side effect... is bone and muscle ache. ask your doctor... ...about neulasta onpro. pay no more than $5 per dose with copay card. this is "up". i'm david gura. it is being described as an epidem epidemic. that according to many experts, the total is actually higher than that. because some people are mis gendered in reports. i bring this up because the supreme court is scheduled to hear arguments in three discrimination cases that will have a profound effect on lbgtq americans. they lost their jobs after revealing they are part of the lbgtq community. is it legal to fire somebody for being gay or transgender? deputy director with aclu lbgtq and hiv project. he will be at supreme court along with laverne cox. i see anybody who watched the emmys, october 8th, title 7, supreme court. >> yes. >> let's understand why this is of such keen interest to you and what will be happening. . >> well, i believe this is probably the most significant case for lbgtq that will hear in in my lifetime because it has implications not just for lbgtq people in the workplace but for everyone in the workplace. and it can have significance in health care, housing. a year ago the "new york times" wrote a story that basically said they want to define transgender folks out of existence. there was a leaked memo from the department of health and human services who want to define gender and sex that takes them out of legal protections. the first thing this administration did in 2017 when they came into office is rescind rights in schools, the trans military ban. earlier this year they wanted to discriminate against them in health care. and so not just trans people. so the stigma of how deeply stigmatized and dehumanized leads to this epidemic of murders. leads to us not being able of m and us not being able to get jobs. when we can't get jobs we're pushed out of the work force and forced into situations that expose us to more violence. >> pick up on that, chase, how pivotal this is going to be and what it says about labor in this country today and the next head of the labor department, what is this going to mean for workplace dynamics? >> i think what i really want people to understand is this absolutely has a transformative effect on the american workplace and on civil rights laws as a general matter. across the board. we really have to see this as part of a long-term strategy to chip away at civil rights protections for everyone. when the court hears arguments on tuesday, the trump administration and the employers are going to make two central arguments. one is lgbtq aren't covered. that it's not sex discrimination to fire us why it is. and can i explain why it is? i would like to do that. let's say you fire me because i'm transgender. so you fired me for one of two reasons. maybe you fired me because you see me as a man but i'm not the right kind of man. you're like oh, you're a little bit feminine, or you're assigned female at birth. that's not what we think a man is. that is sex discrimination. maybe you fired me because i was assigned female at birth. that's sex discrimination. the only way the employers and administration can urge them to stop discrimination about is to roll back chris -- it's been the very way that we have transformed the american workplace way from the madman dynamics and pushing women, all women out of the workplace. >> lavern, central is sex versus sexual orientation. i want to take a step back. there is going to be a heated debate, heated argument about those terms. how important is this just more broadly culturally to the way that we all regard and accept and interact with the lgbtq plus community? in other words, this is happening on the legal side of things. how does that factor into wider cultural acceptance? >> where i'm at with all of this, i think getting into defining, i'm not interested in that. i am here. i exist. transgender people have existed since the beginning of time. if we are here and we exist, we should have civil rights in the united states of america. we should have them globally. and for me, that's the conversation. and the conversation should not be about defining what gender and what sex is. it's about the humanity of these folks who have always been here. and should have a right to exist. when we dehumanize people, then we can discriminate against them. so much of what is going on is about dehumanizing the community in general. we are human beings and we have a bright. to be able to work, i feel so blessed that i can live in the united states of america and do what i love and i get a sense of enjoyment and fulfillment being able to work and take care of myself. that is something that builds such an incredible sense of self-esteem to be able to take care of your family. everybody should have that right. you should not be denied that. andy stevens was a valued employee at the harris employee at the harris funeral home when she said she was transin a letter and she was fired. her employer said we can't do this. it had to do with who she was. that's the issue. it's not about whether we should exist or not. we exist and we always have, and no matter how much they discriminate against us, we're still going to exist. so why don't we have rights? >> tell me about your violent. there are broad issues at play. title 7:00 is kind of obtuse. tell us about your client and who the individuals are who are going to be remitting this case here in the court on tuesday. >> amy stevens is a human being. she was a valued worker and she was struggling inside as so many trans people do, and we only get to live one life. she was hiding who she was. that was killing inside. she had one choice which is to say this is who i am and i'm going to be compassionate with everyone who come s intothis workplace. but i am amy stevens. i am a woman. and then she's fired. that was six years ago. this case has been working its way through the courts for six years. she lost her health insurance. she lost her stability. her income. her physical health. and so what we see as laverne cox mention second down when we are pushed out of the workplace as so many transpeople are, that increases our vulnerability to violence and makes us more likely to be killed. one thing that's devastating about the arguments presented before the court, particularly by amy stevens' employer, they're saying it's for her own good. somehow trans people should benefit by being fired because it forces us to our assigned sex at birth. we cannot live that way. we have one chance to live as who we are. that's what amy was brave enough to do and stand up for. that's what this is really about. are you going to see us as human beings or push us out of public life? >> thank you very much. good luck making your trek to d.c. up ahead, cory booker and top house democrat ma max and water join us. max and waters join us. e diarrhea. the leading competitor only treats symptoms. it does nothing to kill the bacteria. treat diarrhea at its source with new pepto diarrhea. sleep this amazing? that's a zzzquil pure zzzs sleep. our liquid has a unique botanical blend, while an optimal melatonin level means no next-day grogginess. zzzquil pure zzzs. naturally superior sleep. thank you for watching. a.m. joy starts right now. good morning. welcome to a.m. joy. i'm in for joy reed. we start this morning with breaking news. the attorney representing the whistleblower who revealed donald trump's phone call with the ukrainian president that has prompted an impeachment inquiry says he now represents multiple whistleblowers related to the same complaint. joining me right now is nbc news white house correspondent kelly o'donnell. kelly, thank you for being on the show. bring us up to date on what's been happening. >> reporter: what stands out here is the legal team that remits whistleblower one tells me there is a second whistleblower and multiple they describe multiple officials who have cooperated with the intelligence community inspector general. i'm told this does not mean that there's a second formal complaint. we remember whistleblower one filed documents that have been made public, and we've been able to see the narrative. that person described it. in this case what i'm told is that by virtue of cooperating with the intelligence community inspector general and one might presume corroborating some of what was learned in the first complaint, that these individuals are also protected whistleblowers. so what we know is based on the

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consumer names. all what we call defensive stocks haven't been able to do much. your cokes, your pepsis and all those stocks haven't gone anywhere so far this week. there they are today. tradertalk.cnbc.com. bertha, how are we looking at the nasdaq? >> big boost from the transports and really good reports coming out of landstar which beat and boost jphunt also after the close yesterday and that moved over to one of the biggest gainers in the nasdaq 100. we also have the intel effect still in effect intel today at a fresh high and take a look at some of the other big caps on that high five list. amazon, yahoo! today joining the crowd and cisco, as well. that's what is helping propel the nasdaq composite to a new fresh two-year high. meantime, chips overall providing the strength when it comes to tech and drafting off the good news coming off that intel report. and this afternoon, of course, we have google on tap. the expectation is for $6.60 on the bottom line and nearly $5 billion on the top line, but, of course, that whisper number, a lot higher than that. sharon. >> well, the consensus for the natural gas supply data today was that it was going to be a bearsish number, but i don't know if many expect it to be quite so bearish. an injection of 87 bcf which is five times the five-year average and what we saw for this period injection season. when we got that data coming out coupled with the fact that temperatures will remain mild here for the next week or so. we saw natural gas prices drop about 20 cents and still down about 4%. the weakness in the natural gas market some say maybe spreading over here to the oil market, as well. as well as the fact that we have seen oil supplies, the five-year average there still well above average and also keep in mind that we are looking at a situation where we're looking at crude supplies in cushing, oklahoma. they continue to increase. that may have a lot to do with the spread that we're seeing between crude prices. a lot offolks bringing up that argument that brent should be it. rick santelli in chicago. >> we had a lot of data today and maybe the standouts were the treasury international capital flows which showed china letting a few of their positions in the u.s. go for a fourth quarter in a row but we did see good strength in empire and good strength in philly and disappointment on production. the aftermath of all that data and look at intra day charts not have come down but not in an aggressive fashion. greece, you can see rates moved up there again. they're now above 7%, but it wasn't as aggressive as yesterday's move above 7%. if you look at the dollar index, this is really key. we were going to close below 80 and hovering around 80.75. and still a lot of watching as to the reversal of the strength of the dollar and the next currency of the pound may look the best to accomplish that. sue, back to you. >> thank you, rick. a number of people are making the case, think dennis kneale. now is the time to overcome your fear. dive into stocks. if that is the case, what are your best bets? let's talk with andy stevens. he also recently started an opportunistic growth fund. make the case, if you will, for a push higher and make the case for growth, if you will. the interest risk are favorable, why? >> yes, they are. we think now is the time to own quality growth stocks driven by strong secular trends and, you know, these cycles are very pronounced. they typically last five, six years. and we've been in a very strong value cycle. it was logical, it was driven by the emerging markets. it was driven by cheap money and a lot of other factors. but today we think we're in a situation where growth will be difficult, longer term. general economic growth will be difficult and those companies that can grow organically, without the help of the economy, should be revalued higher. >> but, andy, if it's a five or six-year growth cycle, where are we in that cycle? early stage? >> we're at the very beginning. we are at the very beginning and we will see it as we get beyond this initial period of economic recovery. all stocks, all profits are doing better right now. as we move into the back half of this year and into next year, we will start to see who can really put up the earnings numbers and we'll see multiples expand. >> when that growth comes, who will reap the benefits best? you have the big caps and the tiny caps and you in the middle. in so many other businesses, the middle and in tech and in banking. what about stocks? maybe large caps and small caps are better than the mid-caps we so love. >> well, i think it's a matat of how well positioned the company is and how strong they are in their competitive universe. and mid-caps over time have been that goldie locks area to invest because they're big enough companies to have solid management teams and strong balance sheets. you don't have the unseasoned management teams of small companies and the overdiversifications of the large companies. so, we always found it to be a good place to find solid growth. >> some stocks you cited here that fit your description the ones that will grow because of s secular trends. broadcom and ctrip. big tech plague going on in three of those four, right? >> we like innovation and you find a lot of innovation in technology and, you know, technology has been disrespected since the bubble burst ten years ago. a lot of people are underweight. the valuations on a relative basis are quite attractive and all four of those stocks, we think, are driven by strong, secular or noncyclical trends. that's our kind of company. >> thanks, andy, very much. pleasure to have you here. >> thank you. you haven't already heard a travel nightmare across europe. thousands of fliers are stranded after all british airports were ordered closed due to the spread of the ash. ash cloud is a serious threat to aircraft safety. the problem isn't limited to great britain, though. france has reportedly closed 24 airports, including the main airport in paris and flights all across europe from iceland to scandinavia have been impacted. international flights to and from the united states have also already been affected. so, if you've got travel to europe in your plans, you better check it out -- >> so bizarre something thousands of years old could disrupt something so 21st century. >> at the levels that an aircraft levels off at, not only just the dust, but also the ice and glass and crystals that can get, that get suck under to the engine. >> up into the sky. >> and traveled so far. >> yeah, that is so strange. all right, when we come back, we have a lot more ahead of us. we're going to go off the charts. the stock is up more than 400% since the bottom. that's ahead. plus -- >> what's the deal? david faber takes the pulse of m&a with the heavy hitters at a big conference in the big east. tax day. the checks are in the mail, the anger is in the air. who has the right to be more fired up? average americans or the wealthy? game on. the tiger/phil rivalry is heating up. now the pga has a new blue chip sponsor. we'll tell you who it is. tulane is holding its 22nd annual and several top players are attending and david faber is there and he has a special guest with him. hi, david. >> sue, that's right. the bankers go out to try to get ceos to do deals but the lawyers who often structure those deals and try to make them indefensible, if they possibly can. i'm joined by robert that, an attorney that has been out there for a long period of time. thanks for being with us. >> nathanks for having me here. >> the basic idea of, hey, when we will see a serious pace of merger activity? >> we're all asking that question, obviously. it's what we do and what we love to do. there's a lot of tools out there, a lot of conditions that are right for having that happen and we're hearing the phone calls ring and we have a lot of akdz out there and i think it's coming. you've got credit, we're all hearing now that credit is a lot more available and it's a good thing. we have a good, sustained, less volatile, i think, market condition. the high value in the stock market is great for companies doing stock for stock deals because you have a good currency on the buy side and a good currency on the sell side. makes it harder to do a cash deal because you have to pay more and we'll have to see a confluence of expectations on the part of the people selling and the people buying. >> we're not quite there yet. two-fold, you think ceo confidence always so important and maybe not quite there yet and on price -- >> i think confidence is the key, absolutely the key. the only deals we have really been seeing are deals in the same industry. people, when you're not as confident about what is happening, you want to stay in your comfort zone but i think confidence, look, there's this committee, i forget the name of it, that is trying to decide if we're out of a recession. is unemployment going to continue to fall or is it going to spike back up or are people, consumers going to continue to buy? there's all these questions out there what's going on oin europe with the economies. there is a sense that there is a growing agreement that things are clearly getting better and there's a pent up demand. everyone loves to do deals. a pent up demand to do deals. >> coming into this year there was an expectation that at this point we would have started to see a lot more being printed. it hasn't happened. >> it hasn't happened because of this uncertainty. the credit is there. we keep hearing there is better credit and more money available than there has been in years and years and years and it's accompanied by lower rates. so, you can borrow money, you can borrow money more cheaply. now, particularly if you're a strategic borrower. >> right. you're going to be able to borrow, as we heard doug brownstein talking earlier at all-time low rates. that being said, the phone is ringing more often than it did. >> we are getting calls w w i'm sitting here i'm getting e-mails, i'm getting called. >> can i look at your blackberry? >> you'll hear about it soon enough, let's talk about deals. i again, i think there tend to be deals in inindustry and people talking about consolidations and one deal we're not involved in, but i found it very interesting. the merit deal. this is a deal, as i understand it, really driven by synergies. the first deal i heard about deal of equals in years and years and years. that was a thing no one wanted to say that. put two companies together and get a lot of synergies. >> let's end on private equity. starting to get back into the market. credits loosened up and will we see more deals or your firm has clearly done a lot of work with the big clients. kkr and blackstone. >> i think we're going to see more deals. we are seeing some and kkr announced a deal over in the uk just a while ago that was over a billion. i think we're going to see more of those. are we going to go back to the glory days of the, you know, $30 billion deals? not so quickly. you know, i live and dream that we do that, but i think we are going to see them, again, huge pent up demand and a lot of equity money available for people to spend. i know there are lot of people in my office working on these things and that's being replicated all over the street. so, i do think it's coming and doug brownstein said again today that there is going to be money available, but on more conservative terms and i think that is probably good for everyone. >> rob spatt, we have to leave there. let me send it back to you, dennis. i'm here with matt nesto and here's here for a look at stocks that are on the urge to merge. >> it's interesting. we have been taking a look at a lot of the stocks and usually at this time we go beyond the big caps and that is a trend itself that has been working any given day. you'll see me talking about stocks that are up on big volume without any specific news and maybe a call to put ratio that is out of whack. take a look at today, of course, the deal today the mariner energy deal and that one is done but two more in play today out there in the rumorsphere. hp is up 0.7% and nutrisystem with a big 5% move today. it's a call to put ratio is 6-1 in favor of the calls. it's in the small cap and the russell 200. if you look at some of the sector plays, a lot of energy deals and we've seen a lot in the consumer discretionary, and also tech, palm and tivo continue to be favorite. other industry plays include washington post, industrials like jacobs engineering and sunoco was a cramer call the other day and then the airlines ual, definitely talking. but they won't be the only one. so, m&a. >> so hp, hewlett-packard on a take and lower just to get hold of that stock symbol. that drives hp crazy. back to you guys. >> thank you, dennis. coming up, tax anger. it's boiling over in washington today as we show you these live pictures of the tea party and the heat is on actually all over the country. who should be more ticked off about taxes? the top earners or the average american? we also have some stocks trading well above their ten-day average in terms of volume. very interesting group. apache, of course, we just heard about some of the deals in the energy sector united parcel and yum brands and fortune brands. looking at a live picture of the tea party rally in washington, d.c. on tax day thousands of people protesting against high taxes and big spending on this day that you have to file with the irs. many taxpayers feel there is a disparity in who pays. with top earners picking up the bill for everyone else. who has the right to be most angry about taxes? squaring off today michael linden at the center for american progress and curtis duba at the heritage foundation. good to see. curtis, i'll start you. who has the right to be angry? is it the top earners in. >> they certainly have a right to be angry right now. they're footing the bill for almost all federal income taxes. they're footing the bill for all the government services that we get and they're the footing the bill for a large amount of redistribution that is run through the tax code. >> define all in your context. what percentage pays for all of government spending? >> well, the top 50% basically pay 100% of all federal income taxes. but like i was saying, they're footing the bill for most government services. they're also footing the bill for a large amount of red redistribution. $114 billion will be redistributed to the bottom 50% through the refundable credits. >> what do you think of that, michael? do you agree? >> the top 50% pay for all the services, it's wrong. it's a lie. a lot of other taxes people pay. so, to just focus on the income tax is just misleading. that is one thing. second of all, the refundable credits were instituted by richard nixon and expanded by ronald reagan and george bush. not sure what we have a real problem with here. >> i will agree with you on a lot of those points. a lot of other taxes and gasoline taxes, et cetera. you confirmed what he had to say. when you talked about the earned income tax limit it did expand greatly under president bush and it gets enough of a refund to off set all social security taxes. you think that is a good thing? >> only 10% of americans pay no net federal taxes. that is a much smaller number. >> let's not forget the federal income tax is the lion share, the biggest part. yes, they do pay, yes, they do pay payroll taxes. however, payroll taxes until recently were to fund social security benefits. social security and medicare. the income tax is the tax that is used most to fund the services and benefits that we must receive. >> the biggest things in the budget are social security and medicare. so -- >> their own funding source. >> well, except it's not a 1-1, it's not a 1 to 1 you pay in what you get out. i think it's all fungible. the money is all used together. it's a distinction without a difference. >> curtis' point was originally medicare and social security were supposed to be funded by medicare and social security taxes. that doesn't work any more. let me ask you this, curtis when you look of the great survey of the tea party service, there were two dominant characteristics. they want smaller government and, yet, they do not want cuts to social security and medicare. you know that medicare is the blob that is eating the federal budget. aren't those two desires completely unconflict with one another? >> i need to agree with michael on one part. he said we all pay taxes besides the federal income tax, that's absolutely true. a lot of these people are angry because while many of them do not pay the federal income tax, they are paying hefty state and local taxes. even though our federal income taxes have not gone up recently and for many they have gone down. the state and local governments have taken those gains away. they are paying hefty tax bills in aggregate. >> it's worth pointing out that the federal income tax is the only part of the total tax code that is actually progressive. this idea that the rich are not, are shouldering the whole burden is not true if you put it in contexwit the entire tax code, not just the federal income tax. >> we are just talking about income tax here. >> that's not the only part of the tax code. that's like saying i will only look at one little piece of it. people pay taxes on a whole range of things. >> which you said at the beginning. guys, thank you very much. which leads us seamlessly to the fact at 1:00 p.m. eastern, bill is back. at least for today. he is doing our special report "taxing america." and leading up to that special we want to know what you think is the best way to fix a broken tax system? is it a flat tax, a value added tax such as a national sales tax, perhaps. a millionaires tax or a hike in the federal gasoline tax. go to cnbc.com and cast your vote. bill griffeth back at 1:00 p.m. eastern time. >> why isn't lower spending on that list? >> good luck with that. up next, a major new partnership between the pga tour and a blue chip sponsor. darren rovell has an interview with tim finchm. coming up at 12:45 eastern. get ready for the fast money halftime report. last week tiger woods' return to golf provided a huge boost and today the pga tour is announcing a boost of its own. on the business side darren rovell joins us with the details and a special guest. >> just moments ago the pga announced an extension of its deal with coca-cola. they remain the sponsor of the tour championship and the official sports drink of the pga tour and joining us now to discuss the partnership is tim finchum and the chief marketing officer of coca-cola bea perez. this is a six-year marketing deal which is probably pretty bold length of time in this day in age. what is it about this property, about the pga tour that makes sense for coca-cola? >> hey, darren, how are you doing? good to talk to you again. for us, being a part of the pga tour championship presented by coke and know that it will be here in atlanta through 2016 is exciting because as you're familiar with our global business we're all about serving the local communities and giving back where we do business. atlanta is our headquarters and home town and partnerring here with the pga tour and having the championship here in the end of the season with the 30 best players, that's exciting for us and the partnership with the east lake foundation where the community is benefitting and revitalizing this city on a continuouses basis, that's what it is about for us. also about giving back. >> tim, how much does it help the phil mickelson win at the masters? obviously, one of the game's most popular players. how much does it help for the sport? >> i thought it was a great week all the way around and phil is, of course, become just a phenomenally popular player. so, you know, i thought it was good. i thought everything about the week was good and the competition was great and, as you know, with this announcement today with coca-cola, we've been on a pretty good roll here for the last three months in terms of business development and i think that says a lot about the direction of the economy and, but more importantly, that as bea said that the companies have a confidence in the business value of the pga tour and also an increasing focus, really, on economic impact and giving back, which was a key element of the discussions with coca-cola. so, wee very excited about what is happening today. >> tim, coke, though, is a different type of sponsor and participant than you've had in the past. a lot of the sponsors were financial firms and auditing firms and automobile manufacture manufacturers. this is a different approach by both coke, i would think, and also by the pga, is it not? >> well, it is to some extent, but i think that any company that becomes involved in cert n certainly any global company that becomes involved at the sponsorship level and experiences the worldwide distribution to 200 countries around the world that experiences the impact of the response of the communities that are helped by our tournaments, there is, there is all this intangible extra value beyond just the advertising and breach standpoint. but, you know, we have a very, we have a very lucrative audience that buys a lot of stuff and that's not -- >> tim, really quickly -- >> a lot of reasons for this decision. >> tim i got to go -- i got to go here -- >> just to add to that, coke has always been involved -- >> go ahead, bea. >> sorry, darren, to cut you off. coke has always been involved in golf all the way back to 1836 and over 2,000 people came out to see them golf. so, for us, golf is a global sport and it's a sport we want to be a part of because over the past few years they have given over $1 billion to charitable causes. >> right. >> so, this is important for us to those reasons, as well. >> tim, really quickly, you said last time that you thought tiger would play a whole schedule. will he play a whole schedule? yes or no? >> i don't know that. he is dealing with his issues and we'll see but he's following the same pattern he has for years. he makes his decision, announces his decision the week before and we'll be supportive any direction he goes. >> tim, bea, thanks so much for joining us. >> thanks, darren. now, focus on food. mcdonald has been remodeling its restaurants to give its bottom line a pick me up but some people are saying coffee is driving that new look. percolating profits. the subject of today's "business coast to coast." is mcdonald's going for a coffee shop look? officially, no. but there is an ongoing makeover effort. >> it's hard to say how many franchisees will get involved. >> analyst jack russo has tracked mcdonald's for 15 years, he admitted coffee is perking up their business. >> the products carry a much higher profit margin than any other product line they sell currently. it accounts for 5% of mcdonald's business. prior to last year's debut of mccafcoffee was less than 4%. >> i don't think consumers will think of them as a starbucks. >> reporter: sales were down three of the five months ending in february. their look has evolved over the years. the latest changes cost about $70,000 per restaurant. russo thinks franchise owners who do about $2.5 billion a year in sales can afford it. >> if they success happening at luther stores that have evolved their coffee program than it is likely they will probably take on this agenda, too. >> but mcdonald's is helping franchise owners pay for a portion of that start up but the corporate headquarters is not saying whether it will help pay for that overall new look. sue, up next, off the charts with a stock that is up more than 400% since the bottom. stick frararound for the name. as we show you this live picture from washington, d.c., the white house apparently released the details of the obama's filing with the irs. the first couple made $5.5 million in income in 2009. they paid $1.8 million in federal taxes and we worked that out to an effective tax rate of 32.7. that will have book money in it because of president obama's book and maybe the nobel peace prize money. >> it is a direct donation to charity. so, it doesn't go down. time now to go off the charts. pioneer natural resources trading levels not seen since september '08. schars doubling over the past year surging more than 400%. the lows of last march. still room to run. fid fidel, where are you on this stock? >> well, we have an outperform. this is one of our top picks. it's, it's a company that has risen significantly through the crude oil prices and their focus is now more to oil or liquids than natural gas. most of the independent producer in this country are natural gas producers. and natural gas prices now are $8 and $45. the premium -- >> we have to go a little faster. i'm sorry, i have to cut your answers shorter. where is the stock now and where will it be in six months? >> if oil prices don't go down from here, i think pioneer has another 20% upside. >> 20% upside, okay. that's close to 75 from 62 today. now, i think oil is too high, frankly. i think it's out in front of demand. if oil falls from $85 a barrel, down to 70, can the company still thrive and can the company do well? >> go below 60 or 65. this is the threshold. they will grow production significantly over the past few years and the balance has improved significantly. >> they're safe. thank you for being with us, sir. have a good day. >> wow, that was fast. >> great. because at 1:00 p.m. eastern time bill griffeth is returning for our tax special. he is the host of taxing america, 1:00 p.m. eastern time today on cnbc. >> we will see you back here tomorrow on "power lunch." with fidelity, you can take your trading around the world, because now you can trade u.s. and foreign stocks online, in 12 markets, 24 hours a day, all from the same account, and settle in u.s. dollars or the local currency. plus, we'll guide you with international research and realtime quotes, so you can diversify your portfolio, wherever -- whenever. and we'll be on call around the clock, while you trade around the globe. fidelity investments. turn here. welcome to the queet fast money halftime report." weak economic data against strong earnings but the real story today financials as they turn negative on the session. citi breaks 5 bucks. right now steve grasso and eugene profit of profit funds. steve grasso on the floor here with me at the new york stock exchange. what is the feeling here? seems like we're holding on to those levels. we had goldman sachs overnight also raising its gdp forecast for the second quarter by one full percentage points. >> feels like a buck above 1,200. a scramble to get back into this market, melissa. 1209 highest levels we've seen in quite some time. we were headed towards the prelehman levels and that has everyone attracted to the marketplace. everyone is afraid to miss it at this point. >> at the sime in financials we're seeing some weakness. off very strong earnings and jpmorgan. in the green still, how do you interpret that and what does that mean for bank of america tomorrow morning? >> a lot of people calling jpmorgan and a lot of people on the sidelines no doubt looking to get above the october highs that we saw. jpmorg jpmorgan's release was great and jamie dimon said everything he had to say and my concern in the f financials is most of them around the october levels. steve grasso has been steadfast in his view since about 1,000 in the s&p or that it's going to 1,200. he's been spot on, good for steve. i think 1225 gets interesting but my senses now getting pretty late. >> we have to coincide with the credit side of things and loan loss reserves. delinquencies have actually risen. what is your view on the big banks but also the credit card issue issuers, which a lot of people are positive on in the streets. >> i think with the big banks i was concerned that their loan provisions actually went down. that seems a bit surprising when you have commercial writeoffs you think beginning to appear. even though we own it, we will look at that a little closer. we like the credit card issuers, but we like the processors a lot better like a visa. >> visa or mastercard. >> exactly. >> let's go to citigroup when it went above $5 a share. it was practically like a party. j.j., in terms of the options activity you note as lot of activity in the five calls. may strike here and i'm wondering, you know, how do you interpret that we're so close to 5 cl right now. citi will stay around that level for the next month? >> one of the beliefs here, yes, a bet that it will stay around here for the next month. the other bet on this is that there are some funds and things like that that can trade stocks that are below $5. so, people are hoping it can break that level and some new money perhaps can start to hit the stock. you know, it's been a mead yoric rise here over the last few weeks in citigroup and a lot of th the folks real volatility but in real dollars a cheap way to take a shot that citigroup will go higher. >> when you say cheap shot, explain that exactly. when you look at a stock trading south of 5 bucks, it is trading like an option, but the options are more capital efficient at this time. >> yeah, trading currently right around 25 cents. so, that doesn't tie up a whole lot of capital and i think one of the reasons you're seeing such incredible values and we're seeing close to 175,000 of that particular call traded right now. you're seeing people who may not be as well capitalized, not that i'm endorsing that trade, but you're seeing people coming in and buying that call on a chance that the stock continues above the $5 level. >> steve grasso, how long do you hold on to citi? i think you got in around 4 and change. >> this is a long-term hold for me. i never thought about selling it for a quick flip. this is something i wanted to hold for a couple years and as j.j. said, i think the retail investor wants to hold this and hold it a longer term and you're smoking out a lot of investors who wanted to smoke out a piece of citi. >> credit suisse getting bullish on a number of names marathon oil with outperform ratings and names not reacting to those positive upgrades. basically flat on this session. guy, do you like any of these names at these levels? >> you know, tell you what, exxon we talked about having64.. that's had a nice run, better than the overall market. the one name that is glaring is apache. a name that we've talked about many times on the show. clearly they're in the acquisition mode. that stock is getting hit a bit today. if you read the article from march 30, they're basically saying everything we've said. i think apache has some upside. i would use it to get along that name. >> eugene profit, are you cherry picking along some weakness? >> not necessarily in the oral sector. i think inventories show they are valued. we like plains exploration. i don't think you have to rush, if you do, i go with exxon mobil. >> i'm throwing this back to guy. what does this mean for the coal trade? if natural gas remains low and there's bearishness when it comes to the level of oil -- excuse me, natural gas, is there a concern that there be a switch from coal to nat gas? >> some, bouut you don't flip t switch. wlt has been a name we've loved since it was a $20 stock. that stock's been unbelievable. you look and wonder if it's rich on valuation which it may be, probably not. frankly, if you see the wind come out of the coal trade, those stocks go down faster than they go up. i would be leery to get in in the new initiation position here. i'd be looking to take profits. >> moving on, we got to talk about google. reporting on deck, the stock has underperformed this year, falling 3% year to date. on the fast line, one of the four analysts on the street with a hold rating on google. he is colin gillis of bgc. always a pleasure to speak with you. >> thank you. >> you say google as well as amazon for that matter, but google the focus today, that it's going to be a news kind of stock. we're up % today. if you're -- up 1% today. if you're a holder, is now a time for provisnits. >> this is an interesting quarter. we'll get a peek as to what does reinvestment mean for google. if it's going to be a good google quarter, that means we've got real upside. talking $7 a share in eps. this is a 20% grower. they keep the discipline they found in the down cycle, capping head count growth, rationalizing capex, directsing research dollars into the core products. the concern is that we get bad google and bad fwoig gro-- bad google grows into the teens. 500 people each quarter, ramping operating expenses by $ 00 million a quarter. starting across a wide range of products. even if we get a good quarter from google, shares have traded down in the june quarter for four years in a row. we're not out of the bad part of the cycle for the company. there's still a long list with facebook, apple, china, italy, privacy, and stalled market share to keep this in range. >> we're showing our viewers in fact what you mean by trading lower in the june quarter. we have the percentages post earnings that google has fallen. what would you recommend then -- at what level would you say initiate a position with google because the google bulls would say, you know what, google throws off a ton of cash. and there's probably about a 10% of the share price that's just cash here. >> absolutely. $76 a share is cash, but on the valuation side it's 22 times 2010. if you cash it out it's 19 times on the space traip trades 19 times. you want the low -- if it's possible, be more cautious when it's up at the levels it's at now. >> in your universe, what is the internet that will have the most upside? i'm thinking of a name like yahoo. surprise, yahoo is outbuying google. >> we understand that yahoo has the secular trends coming back with brand advertisers, plus, they're turning themselves around. this is the quarter where they'll show it. they also get a boost from the olympics. >> coloi -- colin gillis, great to speak with you. bgc -- >> when he said bad google, is that something you can get penicillin for when he says bad google? i'm not sure. >> you think you need medication for scotticpsychotics. what would you say given the percentages, how it trades lower? >> i would be weary, definitely. all of these names, my clients are always dabbling in. they like the space. it's still a hot space, but they are looking for the secondary, tertiary plays, underperformers. they looking for the beta chase once again. leak at the short interest on the stock. if it's got a high short interest, the fund managers are chasing it in the last month. >> want to move on and talk about general electric. the parent company this network. on back to report earnings -- the stock has seen a nice rebounds. in fact, hitting a new 52-week high. of course, we've got the great news outsd of u.p.s. last night -- news out of u.p.s., last night. piece this together. seems like all bullishness for the u.s. economy. >> no doubt. u.p.s. numbers, they're raising guidance was fantastic. they've been on a run. i think what's happening in g.e. -- and steve can talk to this -- fund managers have poured out of that name over the last two years are getting -- re-establishing positions. g.e. was a huge holding for thefidelities and many people in the world. i still would rather be in honeywell, which also made a 52-week high today. that's a better-run company, frankly. they've only been operating on two out of the four businesses. all four, if they ever kick in, i think honeywell is a mid-50 to a late $60 stock. >> eugene profit, what name are you buying on the bet that the u.s. economy isn't back on the mend? what's the highest beta name in your portfolio levered to the economy? >> i would say united technologies. we also own u.p.s., and that would also be the beta play that we play. we've done pretty well in the last day or so. going back to g.e. for a second if you would allow me, i think that the streets finally realized that g.e. is not only a financial company. they are doing well in the services businesses and also will benefit from the health care reform. >>aire getting rid of non- -- they're getting rid of noncore assets. >> industrial, as well. we look at it as industrial, it performs better than as financial. >> that's true. let's call it closed -- we're running out of time. buy or sell, what do you say? >> i'm buying the market here. >> steve grasso? >> i'm still buying the market. thanks, guy, for the comments earlier. >> j.j., ahead of exploration, what do you say? >> i'm buying the market to s&ps at 1,220. >> negotiator? >> being in the market is more painful than a met fan. i think 1,225 then you take a fresh look. >> that does it. on tonight's "fast money," don't miss the after-hours action on google. up next, cnbc's special presentation. "taxing america" with the one and only bill griffith. apple, beige, your daily paper, they're all frienemies of google. we'll tell you why the giant has so many foes. and find out whether a maker of mechanical m.d.s gets the market's gratitude. with fidelity, you can take your trading around the world, because now you can trade u.s. and foreign stocks online, in 12 markets, 24 hours a day, all from the same account, and settle in u.s. dollars or the local currency. plus, we'll guide you with international research and realtime quotes, so you can diversify your portfolio, wherever -- whenever. and we'll be on call around the clock, while you trade around the globe. fidelity investments. turn here. the tea party raising the stakes high ecalli, calling for system to be scrapped. >> get rid of the irs. >> lots of rage and rhetoric but not a solution in sight. that all changes now. this is a cnbc special report. "taxing america." the roadmap to fixing our broken system. welcome, everybody, i'm bill griffeth. this is our ininal code. all 70,000 pages, three million-plus words. it's pretty clear that the financial crisis of the past few years is abating. now it's time to pay the bill which is why taxes have once again become a big political issue. if not the biggest right now. so over the next hour on this tax day, we are going to look at many of the tax proposals making the rounds in washington. we'll look at their pluses and their minuses and try to identify the one that is most workable right now. and don't worry, we'll also be keeping you updated on the day's market action, as well. but first, cnbc's sharon epperson looks at the tax pickle we're in right now. if you think taxes are high now, just wait. >> reporter: medicare tax and other tax increases related to the new health care reforms will go into effect in 2013. but if you earn more than $250,000 a year, that makes you wealthy by irs standards, and you'll need to brace for an even bigger tax bite that could come much sooner. if congress does extend the tax cuts president bush put in place in 2001 and 2003, you'll probably owe more on your 2011 return. rates for top earners will go from 35% to 39.6%. capital gains rates now at 15% will go up to 20%, and dividends will go up to your ordinary income tax rate, as much as 39.6% for the wealthy. >> as painful as it might feel in 2011, it will be even worse in 2013 for higher income taxpayers. >> reporter: two years later taxpayers will get hit with a 3.8% medicare tax on top of canes and dividends capital gains could increase, top earners taxed at 23.4 percent. stifrt, local that some wealthy americans are willing to pay their share. a march poll done by kin peek university found -- quinnipiac university found those who make $250,000 or more and 644% of those who make $250,000 or more agreed. bill? >> thank you very much. and we want your opinion on this issue. we've been showing you this poll all day here on cnbc. clearly it is not a comprehensive list, but we're asking you which do you feel is the best fix for our budget crisis right now? is it a flat tax, a value-added tax which is a national sales tax, a millionaires tax, which is already enacted in eight states around the country, or should we, for example, hike the federal gasoline tax? you can weigh in with your thoughts at cnbc.com. let aep's introduce our panel, nestle, former director of the omb, current director of a public policy consulting firm. richard breeden of breeden capital management, ceo there, and former the chairman of the securities and exchange commission. catherine madison professor of international business and finance at the brandeis international business school. and wall street veteran allison deans is founder of deans wealth management and a cnbc contributor. and finally william george, a harvard business professor and former medtronic chairman and ceo. i welcome you. we have the task of solving our budget crisis over the next hour. but let me start with a question to all of you. does any -- show of hands -- how many believe that we can solve this budget deficit problem of ours without raising taxes? anyone? mr. nestle, dick breeden, as well. how do we do that? >> well, by raising taxes, all you're doing is killing the economic growth you need which is the x factor that we've seen in just about any time in our history -- >> what are we doing instead -- >> which has brought in revenue to the federal government. so the issue is do you raise taxes or do you do those kinds of pro-growth things that bring more revenue into the federal government -- >> which you're in favor of, though, is incentives that -- especially to corporations that can create jobs and promote growth growth. is that the idea? >> absolutely. we have a spending economy. we need an investment economy. we need the tax incentives to get our economy growing for the long term and sustaining growth. frankly, corporations making money, individuals making money and paying lots of taxes is a good thing. >> is that what you're thinking -- when he raised his hand, how do we solve this without paying taxes? >> we have to be prepared to make a major, major assault on spending and be prepared to do tough, painful things. but the deficit has tripled in the last two years. and we have to be prepared to take it down. >> dr. mann? >> we raised taxes during the clinton administration, and the economy in fact grew. it grew faster. so raising taxes -- >> not until you cut capital gains -- >> it does not -- in this environment, small tax changes across the board set the stage for some realization by congress that we have to come up with a strategy on the spending side and on the taxing side. a package. it's not one or the other. >> let me keep it to our agenda then on these itemized ideas, proposals out there now. for example, allison deans, you're in favor of a flat tax now. >> i do think historically the government has used putting different tax incentives in to drive policy and change. it doesn't seem as if washington's very good at getting along well these days. and as a result, i think flat tax would save people a lot of time, be clear what you can and can't do, and can wind up clearing up the system quite a bit. so -- >> dr. mann, you're not in favor of a flat tax overall? >> i'm not in favor of a flat tax. first, i don't think you'll get there. >> i agree. >> first of all, you saw that pile of 70,000 -- >> you want something that we're going to pass? >> right. we're not going to pass a flat tax. the other thing is that the tax system does play a very important role in identifying entrepreneurship, r&d, and identifying things that everybody wants to have happen, tax incentives do play a very important role. if you have a flat tax, you can't use that tool, you're taking a tool away. >> jim nussle, you once famously said "everybody wants to get to heaven, but nobody wants to die." we all know that the budget crisis needs to be solved, but nobody wants to pay the higher tax. what's the least -- >> or cut spending. >> what's the least problematic? since this is an hour about taxes, what's the least problematic tax in your view right now to solve this crisis? >> probably getting there with the 16th amendment in place, a flat tax will be the easiest one for congress to accomplish. the best one i believe for our economy is -- is some type of a consumption tax. but you're either going to tax an earning event or a -- some kind of payment event or some kind of spending event. those are the two different -- >> a vat tax? >> if you eliminate the 16th amendment and use it as a complete replacement to what we have now. >> dick breeden, what about the millionaires tax? eight states have done this, a surcharge on those making a certain amount of money incomewise, would that make sense in this economy? >> no, it's totally absurd. and class warfare is not the way out this problem. i personally think if not a flat tax, a flatter tax is the way to go. we've proved in 1986, we did it for everybody who says congress cannot accomplish anything, in 1986 we did slash the number of exemptions, we pushed -- we consolidated the number of rate bans, and we got the top rate down under 30%. we're not going to have that kind of a low rate today. but we certainly could accomplish reform to simplify the code massively. >> bill george, do corporations pay their fair share of taxes in this country? >> i think they do. and i think we should encourage more corporate taxes by encouraging them to earn more money. and so i'm very much in favor of corporate taxes, and i think they should pay their -- if there are too many loopholes, that's a problem. so i wouldn't want to see too many loopholes. i think corporations pay their fair share today. >> is there a personal income tax that you feel would be the most equitable? by the way, we didn't put on this list simply letting the bush tax cuts expire, which they're scheduled to do at the end of the year. in other words, raising the rates that exist today. is that a solution? >> see, we've already raised rates tremendously. you laid it out early in the program. there have been huge increases, just pushing those through is going to have huge increases. i don't think more increases -- i thought they were too low under bush, i thought they were about right before. now i think they're about where we need to be and we should not go back up further. i do, like jim, i do tend to think of all the bad alternatives, maybe a modest vat tax with a modest amount of spending cuts. i say if you raise x by taxes you have to match that with spending cuts because i think lacking that discipline it will just become a sinkhole. i don't think you can get there just with a vat, and i would cap it because you've seen in europe where it gets so high it becomes very anti-growth. >> let me turn to our academic here. you know, we all know that taxes can be used for social engineering purposes, to drive behavior a certain direction. what about a national consumption tax? would that make more sense? a value added tax or whatever that -- we've had the gasoline tax on here, as well. would that make sense in your view? >> among the list of things that you could do of the list that you just gave me, the gasoline tax is the way that i would go. the reason -- and it would be coupled with additional incentives to promote alternative energy. that serves two purposes. one, it serves to change our -- the direction of our commuting, cost of energy, and it serves to create an incentive for wind, solar, et cetera so it's a dual purpose tax incentive. now, the vat i would not go for the vat. >> why? >> the value added tax does not work for entrepreneurial startups or any business that has a lot of r&d, a lot of expenditures and not a lot of sales. so i would not go for a advantage. it's negative for entrepreneurship. >> alison deans, the capital gains tax is scheduled to go higher. what would that do to wall street? >> i think going from 15 to 20 on capital gains would not hurt wall street much. i have not seen valid studies that show the 5% drop having any effect. i think that is one of the easier rate hikes to put back in place. i wouldn't want it to go higher than 20% to. some degree, if people do think the wealthy benefit more than the middle class and working class, the wealthy tend to benefit more from capital gains and it's passive income. >> do you agree, mr. former sec chairman? >> i think the world won't end if we go back from -- go from 15 back to 20. but i think it is -- you're playing with fire when you put taxes on capital formation and the investment markets. and we have to -- our best long-term path out of this is serious cutting on spending and doing everything we can to promote growth and entrepreneurship. >> we u.n. go. but there's -- we must go. but there's plenty more to come. we want everybody's comments. we want to put the poll up to show you again the possibilities, the proposals, and again it's not a comprehensive list. this is just sort of the broad strokes issues that we're looking at this hour. which do you think would be among the best fixes for our budget crisis right now? a little later we'll get your comments on the tax system, as well. and did you know that if you put two people, two americans in a room together, one of them doesn't owe any federal income tax? so how that possible? does it unfairly burden everyone else? on this tax day we're keeping an eye on tea party rallies around the country. there's one in washington, d.c., another among them in madison, wisconsin. we've heard of rallies as well -- this is one some madison. we've heard of rallies in des moines, iowa, chicago, and various locations. we want to bring in our own rick santelli, a champion, part of it early on. there in chicago, my friend, how are you? >> reporter: very good. welcome back. >> good to see you. i'm confused, rick. the tea party rallies are going on this tax day on a day when "the new york times" published an extensive story about who these -- who these tea party members are, and when asked the goal of the tea party, only 6% of the respondents said lowering taxes. by far, the bigger priority was reducing the federal government. so is tax -- is taxation really the tea party movement issue today? >> reporter: no, but i think it's the other side of the coin. and i think your great special here underscores you're spending time with your experts talking about the taxation side and how to potentially modify that. the tea party crowd seems to want to spend more time talking about spending and, hence, the size of the government and the size of the programs, and what type of return we're getting for our money. i think that's the other side of the coin. spending has to be paired up with anything that is associated with getting in taxpayers' pockets. and i think that's the key. >> the idea of reducing the size of government i get. that's been among conservatives for a long time. but if we look at the deficit issue we face right now, how would you solve that? >> well, first of all, i think there's no way to solve it without very tough decisions which means you need leaders that can talk through an issue and understand it isn't going to be popular -- >> does it include raising taxes, rick? >> reporter: you know, i think it may have to include that because we have so much underfunded liability issues down the road. but i still say -- >> which tax would you raise then? >> reporter: no, you know what, before i would do anything on taxes, the first thing i think we need is a balanced budget amendment. we need to tackle things like pay-go where you can't skirt the issue. if you want to spend you have to come up with a way to pay for it. some of the programs on the books are going to warrant more taxes because we can't grow our way out. but as one guest said, it is the growing out that is truly the jewel when you are running in the red. and many of the current programs to find more money are just going to put us that much farther behind the 8-ball. and underfunded pensions is a big key because you're going to have to renegotiate a lot of these programs, and that is going to be super difficult. >> rick santelli, always good to see you, my friend. thanks. within the last hour we learned how much president obama paid in taxes last year. this is the president's -- let's see, here's the front page. here's the president's tax return. the 1040. their address, 1600 pennsylvania avenue, cool. their signatures down at the bottom. the president and the first lady last year made a total of $5.623 million, they paid taxes of $1.792 million. dick, that worked out to 32 percent%. you said h&r -- 32%. you said h&r block could have gotten them a better rate. they got a refund of $82. what do you make of the president's tax return? >> i have no ability to comprehend $5 million worth of income, so i'll leave that to somebody else who can. >> we have to remember that he won the nobel peace prize which brings $1.8 million. he also had book income from that, as well. >> i guess. >> but what we're learning is that the president is among the 53% who paid federal income taxes. a recent study, very famously last week, pointed out that 47% of americans owe no federal income tax at all. bob williams is a principal research associate at the urban institute and the urban brookings tax policy center. he's the author this rather surprising study. bob, thanks for joining us today. >> you're welcome. >> that 47% number is correct, obviously. but it leaves out the idea that people still have to pay payroll taxes. they're subject to the social security and medicare taxes, they'll pay state and local income taxes, sales taxes. i mean, that 47% number by itself suggests that these people paid no taxes. is it misleading? >> it is absolutely misleading. we know that about 2/3 of those people do pay payroll taxes, pay social security and medicare. the remain regular elderly or very low-income individuals who don't have enough taxable income to pay any federal income tax. >> in your view, given the crisis we're in now as far as a budget deficit goes, when an annual deficit now runs more than $1 trillion with a capital "t," how do we close that gap, do you think? >> well, we can't do it by taxes alone. roseanne altshauer, katie limb and i did a study at the tax center this year asking what would happen if we raised taxes to close the budget deficit. ton zero it out but -- not to zero it down but get it to 1% or 2% of gdp. if you focused on just the rich you would have to raise the top tax rate north of 75% from the current 35%. if you tried to spread it across the entire spectrum you would have to have taxes go about 40% across the board. it's not going to happen. >> is there a fair tax, then? we're always looking for ways to fairly burden people in this country when it comes to paying their taxes. whether -- whatever kind of tax it is. in your view, is there such a thing as a fair tax? >> it problem is fairness is in the eye of the beholder. what's fair to me may not be fair to you. we have a tax that's fairly progressive, in the income tax system. it's fairly regressive in the payroll taxes in combination, it's moderately progressive which means the high income people pay a larger share of their income. we have seen as -- we seem as a country to agree that's an appropriate thing. the high income people have more ability to pay. they've gotten all the income gains in the last years, over the last 25 years income at the top 1% has gone up three times after inflation. compared to people at the bottom end whose incomes changed 1% point after inflation. the income has gone to the top end. it makes sense they're the ones paying taxes. but there's not enough money to balance the budget. >> bob williams, thank you for joining us. mr. 47%, as he's now known in washington. and for larry cudlow -- kudlow's report, stay tuned tonight at 10:30 p.m. on cnbc, "taxing america." this 47% number, by the way, it is a bit misleading because you do have people who are able to take advantage of government-sponsored credits that were designed to try and stimulate growth in this economy, right, dick breeden? >> that's true, but i personally think everybody should pay something. the air force protects all of us. the poorest people should pay the least. but you could certainly have a very modest reduction in credits going to even the people who are on refundable credits. >> bill george? >> let me pile on there, i think everyone as a citizen because we're contributing to the common good should pay some taxes. maybe, possibly with the exception of the very poor. but certainly not the very wealthy. i think we ought to have a minimum tax for people. i don't think one should be allowed to get away with paying no taxes. it's a responsible. >> dr. mann, i'll ask you the question i posed to bob williams. is there such a thing as a fair tax? one that we can point to and say, yes, this is the way this should be done? >> no, i think he's right. fairness is in the eyes of the beholder. we ought to go back to when the federal income tax was put in place. it was designed progressive. it was designed to recognize that those for whom the -- they either started out with wealth or they're smarter or have got connections, whatever, they are able to generate a tremendous amount of income and wealth off of their own resources. and for them to pay a little bit more than their share, i don't see that as unfair. if we look at people at all different distribution of the population, the low 10%, top 1%, everybody's kind of paying the same percentage of their income, that's not progressive. that just means that everybody's paying the same percentage. the rich should pay more. i'd love it if the entire country was a horatio alger, but they're not. you can't generate public policy off of that. >> quickly, jim nussle, income rates have gone up even as tax rates have gone down, is that fair? >> from a public policy standpoint, we want to create, i don't know, 16 million, 18 million jobs now. there are 36 million small businesses. if half of them just hired one person, we would wipe out unemployment in this country. we need to ask the question -- and they'd all become taxpayers. what do we need to do to get those 36 million small businesses to hire people. well, it's not by piling on more taxes. it's not by saying that they're not taxed enough. most of those people file as rich people. they're -- they're filing as these -- in the 33 to 36 tax bracket as rich people. that makes no sense to pile on even more. >> yeah, but it's the payroll taxes that -- that are hampering small business growth. >> okay, then why are -- >> it's payroll taxes. >> why are they adding on to that? in the last two years they've added in congress and with the new president have added 2 5 new taxes, amountsing to $620 billion and the deficit continues to get bigger. raising taxes is not the answer. >> as bob williams pointed out. we'll take a break, come back. still to come, your thoughts on how to fix the tax system right now. and then two former lawmakers, senators now presumably unburdened by the worry of having to be re-elected. maybe they'll tell us what they really think can be done at this point. welcome back to the cnbc special report, "taxing america." once again, bill griffeth. >> we were looking at pictures of the latest tea party tax rally washington. we're having our own tax rally here. some great conversations during the commercial break here. sue herr, my old friend, back at h.q., keeping an eye on the markets and the top stories this hour. it is great to have you back, bill. we've missed you. all right. here are some of the stories that we're following this hour. the national association of home buildersers, wells fargo housing market index finds sentiment improving significantly in april to the highest level we've seen since september of 2009. u.p.s. says q1 numbers will be much higher than original estimates. it is raising its full-year outlook. and about 80 flights between the u.s. and europe are canceled. dozens of european airports are closed or will be closed this evening due to clouds of ash from a volcano that has been erupting in iceland. that is an amazing story, and it is wreaking havoc on the travel industry. bill, back to you. what do i have to do to get you to come back more often? >> have another tax special or something --. >> that can be arranged. >> i'll be back. thank you, sue. let's check on this poll question that we've been posing to you folks all day. we've been asking which you feel -- obviously not a comprehensive list at all, but among the proposals being bandied about in washington, which do you feel would be the best to fix the budget crisis right now? a flat tax which we've talked about here, to a great degree. the value added tax, v.a.t., a national sales tax, a millionaires tax, surcharge on millionaires that's already in effect in eight states around the country, or should we hike, for example, the federal gasoline tax? you can vote at cnbc.com. you can also send us your thoughts on this. many people have. some of the e-mails that have been coming through so far -- one from florida, an accountant writes, why no choice for none of the above? until we cure our government's addiction to spending, there is no reasonable fix to our tax system or an additional tax that will solve the problem. and i'm getting lots of positive nods from our panel members here. another one writes, we urgently need much more progressiveness in our tax system. its an sense has contributed to the continuing decline of the middle class and widening of the division between the super rich and the rest of us. dr. mann is nodding her head on that one. >> yeah. >> the last one, how about we start laying off congressmen until we have a balanced budget. jim nussle, would you nod your head? >> well, unfortunately, there aren't enough congressmen to quite get there. but the point is still well taken. >> we'll take a break. we'll come back with two former senators no longer with the specter of washington over their shoulders. although they are lobbyists now. we have trent lott and john breaux to tell us how they would fix this system right now. call it senators unplugged if you will. i'm bill griffeth. with us now, we're pleased to welcome two familiar faces, trent lott, former republican senator are mississippi, former senate majority leader and with him is john breaux, former democratic senator from louisiana. and at one time the majority whip. together they now are the founders and partners of theboro-lott leadership group. gentlemen, it's good to see you both. thank you and welcome back to cnbc. >> glad to be with you, bill. >> let me ask you, senator breaux, the bush tax cuts are ending this year. should they? >> it will be a reveling match on whether they should renew the tax cuts or not. some should be renewed. i think they have to. people have made plans, counting on them to be renewed. they have state taxes that have to be part of that package to address it. but i think the big question is what's the best tax system for the country. that is going to be an ongoing debate for a long time. the saying about taxation without representation is bad -- i remember that taxation with representation isn't so good either. >> yeah. boy, you really aren't running for re-election anymore, are you? >> no. >> senator lott, once upon a time, there was a great movement to try and will repeal the alternative minimum tax. as we all agree, it's gotten to a point where it is unfair to many middle income americans in this country. nobody's talking about that right now. >> well, it is very unfair. it should have been repealed years ago. the problem now is it is extremely expensive. and to repeal it would cost billions of dollars. but absolutely it's unfair and it should be repealed. by the way, i want to note on the bush tax cuts you referred to, i was majority leader when those were passed. and john breaux was my partner working on the democratic side to put that package together. >> even though he wanted a smaller tax cut as i recall. >> he did want a smaller package, and we had to come down some to get the bipartisan package. we wound up with. there are a lot of good things in there. >> wams acting chairman lev -- ways and means acting chairman let levin says he wants to extend the brackets, keep them lower. would you be in favor of that senator lott? >> look, i'm always looking for a way to keep taxes under control. i want to make sure it is fair. you know, we -- all the emphasis has been on the lower brackets, those that are not paying taxes. and i think what we need to be careful about is whatever we do in the tax area or not do in the tax area, we've got to make sure that it doesn't further hurt the economy. the economy is still very weak. the problem is not insufficient revenue. the problem is way out of control spending. we've got to get that under control. having said that, there is always some things you can do to make the tax code better, fairer, and hopefully smaller. >> let's talk about that, senator breaux, of the proposals we've talked about this hour, which do you think is the best fix for the economy? whether it's a v.a.t. tax some kind, a millionaires tax, a national sales tax, a -- you know, among those proposals out there now, a flat tax? >> bill, let me give you an example. i co-chaired with senator connie mack the tax simplification and reform commission that president bush appointed about four years ago. we came up with over a 400-page list of recommendations that we gave to the president. >> there's simplification rights there. >> they didn't do anything with it. they filed it, it was too controversial. >> what was the best tax you could come up with? >> we eliminated the alternativemint numb tax. we came up with -- alternative minimum tax. we came one alternatives. if i had to recommend changes, i would do what almost all of the other tar heel -- other industrialized nations have done. a combination of a tax and v.a.t. or consumption tax. you could lower corporate rate, individual rates and make up the difference with a consumption tax. >> senator lott, which do you think is the best tax that's being bandied about now to fix this problem? >> well, i do think that we need to try to simplify the existing code we have. of those that you mentioned, you know, i like the flat tax better. because i think it could be designed in such a way that would be fairer. the problem with the value added tax, i see the benefits of it, but i'm worried about a situation where you wind up with a value added tax on top of the personal income. though you may cut the personal income tax initially, unless you eliminate it will come back and grow. so that's my concern on that particular part. >> gentlemen, it's good to see you both. thank you for your time. continued success. >> thank you, bill. >> trent lott and john breaux joining us from washington. let me ask our panel. when we talk about the possibility of a consumption tax of some kind, the implication is that we do away with income taxes at the same time, but he was talking, dr. mann, about -- senator lott there just now, of a combination of an income tax and a consumption tax of some kind. >> well, i think that basically people do want to have some progressivity in the tax structure. you can't do that with a consumption tax. inevitably it will hit hardest those who are consuming all of their income, which are the poor people. so even if you try to put in, well, no clothing, no medical, no food, you end up with the tax code being very difficult to understand. it has to be implemented by business, which of course makes it very expensive for your retailers and other businesses to implement, so, you know, a consumption tax is regressive. so the income tax always has to be part of our tax structure if we move forward with what the -- america as a democracy was designed to do. >> we'll take a break. before we do that, i want to bring in our senior washington correspondent, john harwood. from john, i'd like to hear sort of our reality check here. i mean, of the possibilities that we're talking about here, the proposals for the various types of taxes that are being discussed in washington, realistically, what kind of tax do you think is viable to pass by congress? >> well, bill, i think you heard some of the reality check from john breaux and trent lott. they were talking about modifying the existing code. there are lots of things that you could do in government and politics if you could start with a clean slate. we saw this in health care reform. but if you have to live with the world as it is, the likeliest thing is that you get some sort of modification of the current system. something like what judd gregg and ron wyden have proposed, work done under ronald reagan in the 1980s. fewer breakets, fewer deduction -- brackets, fewer deficit reductions, and figure out the politics of that. if you get bigger, more transformational and barack obama has indicated that he wants to sort of move the system as much as he can, then you could talk about things like a v.a.t. tax or carbon tax that would have other benefits for climate and the environment, that sort of thing. but those are hard to get done, and the other incremental thing that you could do is if you're trying to fix the long-term solvency problem for the u.s. government is more taxes at the top of the scale. you saw that in the health care bill when they taxed medicare, they extended medicare taxes or raised them for people over $200,000 individuals, and $250,000 couples. and that kind of thing also is something that as long as democrats are in control of the government, you may see them try to push, they might be able to get some of it through. >> good to see you. thank you, my friend. >> you bet. >> tax simplification. i know some of you are in favor of that. you've espoused that. what does that mean? is this really the time to try and simplify the tax code? admittedly a very tenuous political proposition at a time when we're trying to solve a budget crisis at the same time? >> well, tax simplification can be done in a way that ends up with greater aggregate revenue. and remember, this is something we've done once before. 1986, we went from a dozen different tax rates down to three. we eliminated hundreds and hundreds of different kinds of deductions to increase revenues in the aggregate, and then we cut the rates, and you start with the three million pages of social engineering that the congress has passed in the form of the current tax code, and simplifying that, creating much greater transparency and fairness is a way to get a code that the public can believe is fair. >> alison deans, you're nodding your head on that. >> first, i don't think it's all social engineering. sometimes it's people representing their constituency. it winds up being much more of a cobbled together tax code rather than one that is driving toward social policy change that i think we all want. second, i think there's a tremendous amount of time spent, people trying to understand their taxes that i view as sort of negative productivity. if you freed up all that time, and i know it means a lot of accountants out of jobs. but you also could go back into people more focused on their businesses. >> i promise we're going to come back, and it's all about you folks. we must get a commercial break because we must pay our bills, as well. when we come back, it will be the moment of truth for our blue ribbon panel here. give us their solutions to the taxing problem of a broken tax system and a budget crisis that we face down the road. ♪ as you can see, this isn't your typical midwestern farm. the reason lies six thousand miles away... in japan, where a producer of specialty eggs needed corn for feed... grown to precise standards. cargill identified the producer's needs, then introduced an illinois farmer to grow the exact corn needed... and developed a system to ship it separately, connecting the farmer with a japanese customer... who was very appreciative. this is how cargill works with customers. geico's been saving people money and who doesn't want value for their dollar? been true since the day i made my first dollar. where is that dollar? i got it out to show you... uhh... was it rather old and wrinkly? yeah, you saw it? umm fancy a crisp? geico. fifteen minutes could save you fifteen percent or more on car insurance. welcome back. now to the whole reason we convened this blue ribbon panel this hour, let's try and come up with a solution to the taxing problem, the budget, and big george, are you just itching to get to this now. you were saying during the break, now we get to talk about solutions, right? what's your solution for the budget crisis we face? >> well, the best way to generate taxes is to grow the economy, to grow profits, corporate side and individual income. and i think we've got to get away from driving consumer spending like we have the last ten years and get back to an investment economy. so i would actually change the tax code. starting with the -- starting with the capital gains tax, and i would if to a sliding capital gains tax where i don't think one year and one day is long term. and i would actually have it slide down from the 30s all the way to zero or ten at the bottom, maybe five, if you held an assets for ten years. >> with all due respect i don't know how high we wanted to put the pie in the sky when we were talking about solutions here. i think we're looking for a realistic solution. you think that's realistic? >> yes, i do. i think -- >> to come out this congress? >> well, i'm not going to speak to this congress. >> that's where it has to come from. >> no. i think to go in that direction is the way to go. president obama had in his own campaign pledge a commitment that he was going to go to zero tax on any startup company and anyone who invested in a startup or started, the first time they sold it. adding on to that i would go to an investment tax credit. i would increase it significantly because we've got to get to invest in the economy, otherwise we're never going to get the jobs. we can't just give money away. i would do the same in our r&d tax credit bill. we have to create jobs that generate -- >> for you it's about investments. >> yes. >> catherine mann of brandeis, where do you think is the best solution right now? >> well, i think the first solution is on the discipline side. 1985 was mentioned before, the grandmother hollings act, the balanced budget amendment, set us on the -- >> pay-go. >> right. it was in place, it meant that if you wanted to spend on something you had to find a way to finance it. if you wanted a tracks reduction, you had to -- a tax reduction, you had to find a way to finance it. pay-go is an important known of any solution. then i would go for social security. means test. make it older. make it, you know, i -- i would pay all of those. >> raise the cap. >> raise the cap. >> it's been done already. >> do it again. do it again. >> jim nussle, what would you -- >> having been a leader in both congress and the white house, i've got to tell you i'm not worried about whether government's getting enough money. i'm worried about the economy, as bill said. that's the goose that's laying any egg out there. we've got to create jobs, growth. we've got to be competitive in the world. and if you're looking for a solution that allows you to be able to do all of that, i think it is on the consumption side. marginally better than on the income and earnings side. i think -- >> you would favor a v.a.t. tax or -- >> or national sales tax, there's a fair tax, a national sales tax. but what it does is it puts us back in a position where we're growing, and where we're competitive in a world market. but you've got to eliminate the 16th amendment to get there, as senator lott said. if you just add it on, all you're doing is you're going to a european model with more socialism and higher government spending. >> alison deans, what kind of solution would wall street like to see to solve a budget crisis which is now troubling the bond vigilantes and many traders on wall street again? >> do you know what wall street wants to see or what i think would be a good solution? they might not be the same. wall street would like the government to greatly reduce spending. >> those are the traders who have to pay the taxes, right? yeah. >> my sense is having worked on wall street in the '90s that the tax rates during the clinton era were not so onerous, that the economy did well, the market did well. bringing tax rates back there, i think gasoline tax that would go into also fuelling -- investing in alternative energy. but my sense also is that for all the dollars that you raise in these new tax increases, there has to be an agreement that the government at a minimum will cut a comparable amount in spending. so that -- >> for one -- >> that's right. two for one, we talked about it before. but there should be almost if they raise $50 billion, they should cut $50 billion. and that would have a doubly positive benefit on the market. ultimately as we learned in the '90s when the deficit came down and we got to surplus, it actually was good for the economy. corporation didn't have to compete with the government. >> dick breeden, what's your solution? >> we can't keep feeding the beast in washington. there has to be some form of limit, whether it's pay-go, constitutional amendment, capping spending, percentage. some way, somehow we have to get spending down. then i think we do have an example both in tax simplificati simplification, as i mentioned, and in the clinton era of a sub-40% rate that brought the budget into surplus. i think those things can be done. i would -- two things i would like to see added to the list of potential. one, i think on the corporate side we can try for an absolute flat tax. go for a sub-20% return, get rid of all the corporate tax engineering and have -- and prove that a flat tax can work in the corporate field. and for individuals, i'd love to see us go from the home mortgage deduction which incentivizes people getting into debt and staying there, to deductions for principle payments. let's have homes go back to being part of saving, not for financial speculation. >> let's try and mark up this bill, then, as you folks would say in congress then. i hear incentives, i hear investments. some sort of a consumption tax of some kind. pay-go, bring that back again. what about income taxes? again, economic back to the bush tax cuts which are expected to expire at the end this year. should that be out of the equation, as well, quickly? >> they should be set to expire. let them expire. i think we've all -- >> let the raise rates, go up -- >> let the rates come up. >> except in a bipartisan way everyone there is saying they ought to not expire and ought to be extended. starting with president obama. extends most of the bush tax credits -- >> individual income tax collection vs. gone from % -- collections have gone from 8% of gdp to 10% and are rising. we've had the tax increase. people are talking about whether we should have one, we're having one every year. >> i'm sorry. there's a misconception about the '90s that it was because of the clinton tax increase that's got us to surplus. >> who's going back now -- quickly -- >> there's a huge capital gains decrease. a cut that got us to the surpluses of the '90s. >> yeah, but what -- >> i'll let you continue that discussion during the break. we'll come back and see if you agree with our panel here straight ahead. the results of our cnbc.com poll. ever want to look over the shoulder of a seasoned stock trader? well, here's your chance... i'm running strategy desk from td ameritrade to set up a trading strategy based on how i think the market's trending-- right now i'm looking at a 20-80 stochastic cross. now, i could be running multiple strategies... my own tweak or some combination-- but for now--this is good... this is strategy desk, advanced technology for traders from td ameritrade. it's designed specifically for traders. with strategy desk i can compare the 20-80 with other strategies and back-test them all. multiple strategies. multiple stocks. over time. and i can look at that at the symbol level or have it charted out for me more visually. and i'm not trading on emotion... a buy here...a sell here... there you go. i just hit a buy point and strategy desk fired off a trade. once you trade with it... you won't want to trade without it. td ameritrade. independence is the spirit that drives america's most successful investors. announcer: trade commission free for 30 days plus get $100 cash when you open an account. but we're also in the showing-kids- new-worlds business. and the startup-capital- for-barbers business. and the this-won't- hurt-a-bit business. because we don't just work here. we live here. these are our families. and our neighbors. and by changing lives we're in more than the energy business we're in the human energy business. chevron. here's the results of our poll. look at this. 68%, a huge margin, in favor of the flat tax. if you're catherine mann, quickly, that doesn't have the reputation of being very progressive, a flatd tax. >> no, it's not progressive. it's simple but not progressive. i guess who's watching tv at 1:00 to 2:00 is a group that is not interested in the progressivity of the tax system. >> i want to thank our blue ribbon panel. you were terrific. thank you for your ideas and thoughts. don't forget about larry kudlow's special tonight at 10:30 p.m. eastern. it's nice to be back. thanks for joining us. it is 2:00 on wall street where the market is on the verge of six straight days of gains. 25% of the s&p 500 at this moment trading at their highest levels in a year. the nasdaq meantime on the verge of doubling from last year. is all this a sign the economy's ready for a breakout recovery? or is it all a head fake? from the fed to the trading floor, we're excited about this. to tackle the big question, impeachment co-'s bill gross, ken heebner, the fed's jeffrey lacker, and robert kindler. meantime, it is i think this is the shuttle picture. but it's -- it's 6:00 p.m. in the skies over iceland, we'll get there. mother nature's wrath is bringing international air travel to its knees, an angry volcano in iceland triggered a name in europe, shutting down the busiest airport in the world. ripple effects felt here in the united states. it's iceland's revenge, what will be greece's? and you see the shuttle there. it is 2:00 p.m. at kennedy space center. the president in just a couple of moments there will be laying out a plan for america's space program with new jobs, companies are ready to benefit. we have a live report and the trades. thank you very much for spending part of your day with us. i'm erin burnett on this thursday afternoon. we begin with the markets. dow, s&p, and nasdaq all on track for their seventh straight week of gains. so let's get to the trading floor first. bob pisani, there's a lot of