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Transcripts For CSPAN2 Key Capitol Hill Hearings 20150502

started. they said because of this affect the drug is incapable of producing it,. we it. we said someone forgot to tell the fda because the warning is right there. they have retreated now to where it cannot reliably produce a, the read if it can get someone to a where is the ceiling effect? 's are some basic pharmacological principle that prevents this drug? we have established that there is not an ask you to look at the cases. an anesthesiologist -- >> out of this argument because you presented a lot of things i was not before either the district court for the court of appeals. i believe that your experts have proven there.'s. why don't we let the district court sort out whether it still holds to its opinion based on the plethora of materials you have given us. >> too quick responses. the record that they presented. we put presented. we put plenty of rebuttal evidence of enough to support the district court finding. there is know district court here. >> the extent that it is unusual listening rather than talking. happy to give you an extra five minutes. >> hopefully we will have a chance to hear what you have to say. >> i appreciate that. i will told you about the 1st source the material safety data sheet. nothing in the reply brief. a study about rats. we read that study. no mention of the ceiling effect. no responsible i'm brief. that is the evidence they put before the district court on what they said clearly demonstrates. after the fact their experts submitted an additional declaration. two more sources cited the study. took five dogs and give them a big dose's. the study concluded we season. the effect of the drug slows at a certain time. but that study concluded if you take the results and extrapolate out once you get to 30 grams per kilogram you have achieved full surgical anesthesia's. there are other experts the proposition there is a ceiling effect. then it goes on to say this drug has been used for general amnesty was. the profile came along. that was the record case. will they stand up and say that they clearly demonstrated that there was in fact a ceiling effect they are just wrong. never submitted to the district court. .3 mg per .3 milligrams per kilogram were never given to the patients. about what happens if you have .1-milligram per kilogram of varying doses. we pointed that out. nothing in the reply. their evidence is indefensible. you go and read the sources and they just don't say what he said they say. paradoxical effects again we have pointed out it is only relevant if someone is not unconscious.an't avoid the fact the district court made this factual finding a virtual certainty. they cannot establish a substantial probability. thank you. >> justice kagan, i want to address your hypothetical in this case if the risk from using the land if petitioners of petitioners are correct manifests itself them there will be unconstitutional pain-and-suffering. my friend admitted that. if, in fact a person is burned alive they didn't have appropriate anesthesia it would be unconstitutional >> if the person was burned alive would that be unconstitutional? >> it would be. the.is that the district court below found that there is a greater risk of using that but it was unquantifiable. if that risk manifests itself there will be a constitutionally intolerable execution's. the drug formula that issue was using them soviet by bentall. >> rendered a person completely unconscious. with that be cruel and unusual punishment? >> i think the problem is not rendering someone unconscious. the problem is and is necessary is to ensure the person maintains a deep a deep level. >> anesthesiologist called in to make sure this person feels no pain whatsoever. but that not be a violation anyway? >> being burned alive from the inside. >> that is exactly what it is, justice kagan. >> you think there are certain phases in which burning someone at the stake would be consistent with the 8th amendment? you are not certain about that? >> the founder say burning at the stake is unconstitutional. it's in your hypotheticals if there is a way to ensure that was done in a humane way. >> incredible answer. not a violation of the 8th amendment. >> the district court found the risk. again the barbiturates function differently. in bays and lambert again there was the use of a barbiturate known to produce a deep coma like a consciousness. the reason that is important, it does not matter that they don't have analgesic properties because we know the will reliably induce a deep like a consciousness. those support for the ceiling for. the cited study in exhibit two shows the emacs curve explained his testimony. no explanation, no support for the testimony that he presented when he testified he did not have data to cite. he was incorrect. he made a mathematical error again to all of this court needs to understand is that given the drug even if it could potentially cause a toxic effect that will not protect against the unconstitutional pain-and-suffering from the 2nd third reich. >> thank you, counsel. cases submitted. 's final resting place in springfield illinois. the sunday afternoon to commemorate the anniversary of pres. lincoln's funeral president lincoln's funeral with over 1000 reenactors and the re- creation of the 1865 eulogy. also saturday at ten am eastern 10:00 a.m. eastern the grand prize winners and our student cam documentary competition. the state visit of japanese prime minister so abbé 's. >> good afternoon, afternoon, and thank you for being here. sexual assault awareness and prevention month which has been this past month they have ended yesterday but because of its dangers to our men and women in uniform and its impact on a mission our commitment to stopping sexual assault and the cannot cease. georgetown university and sexual assault 1st responders one reason the military is among america's most admired institutions is that we are learning organization striving to understanding correct our flaws. today dod is releasing our annual report on sexual assault in the military. but how to understand and correct our flaws. some new actions that we are taking based on it. undersecretary carson will make remarks. included in our report to president obama this past december a full analysis gives more detail and makes clear where we need to do better and also tells us how first, we develop a new and different measurement method 's how many members experienced a sexual assault last year yielding ms -- and estimated number of 20,300. an accurate measure because it is more in line with the range of crimes. the former methodology measured this new measure will be the one we will use going forward. second, through the analysis and the report where getting a clear picture of how this crime is perpetrated. compared to women men are less likely to report and more likely to experience multiple incidents by multiple vendors and are more likely to view the incident as hazing or an attempt to humiliate. third the survey suggests that 22 percent of active duty women and 7% of 7 percent of active duty men may have experienced some form of sexual harassment last year. that is abhorrent and has to stop not just because it is flat out wrong but also because the data shows that those who experienced sexual harassment are more likely to be sexually assaulted. so we have to better attack behaviors like sexual harassment. fourth, we are not making enough progress on countering retaliation. too many servicemembers feel that when they report or try to stop these crimes they are being ostracized or retaliated against. in short the report makes it crystal clear that we have to do more and gives insight on how to improve this ongoing campaign to ensure dignity and respect in our institutions. as i said no matter woman who serves in the united states military's should ever be sexually assaulted nor should they experience reprisal for reporting such crimes. today i am issuing for new directives that move us forward in accordance with data based in part on what we learned in this latest report and each will continue to improve our efforts to eradicate sexual assault from the ranks. for example, based upon what we have learned from the link between sexual harassment sexual assault in directing the services to update their prevention training to incorporate what we have learned and have that integrated in the training. based on what we are learning about gender differences we are also going to look at how to best meet the needs of men and women who are seeking treatment for sexual assault based on based on what we are learning about retaliation, especially from one's peers i am directing we develop a dod wide comprehensive strategy to prevent retaliation against servicemembers who report or intervene on behalf of victims of sexual assault and other crimes'. to reemphasize what i said last week even though sexual assault is a disgrace in any form it happens far too often across our country. as a particular challenge for us here. but our military also has particular strengths in dealing with this problem. we believe in an ethos of honor and trust. we have tackled tough problems before. again we are learning organization so we will keep getting smarter and better than doing everything that we can to beat back sexual assault command we will not let up. thank you for coming here this afternoon all of you and thank you for your interest in this important subject. [inaudible question] >> thank you, mr. secretary. acting undersecretary of defense for personnel and readiness greatly appreciative of the leadership and commitment to addressing this critical and challenging issue. sexual misconduct in any form has no place in our nation's military. nothing is more important than the health and well-being of our servicemen and women i am deeply and personally committed to identifying and eradicating any environment of sexual misconduct tolerated tolerated, condoned, or negligently overlooked by military leaders and doing so from the highest and lowest levels. today with the release of the 2014 report we have an important opportunity to look at where we stand compared to previous year statistics and discuss also where we need to be. over over the past decade the department has dedicated substantial resources and energy to better understanding the issue of sexual assault and implementing crucial reform such as developing professional and effective training curriculums skills, personnel response and prevention programs. these programs are these programs are all available the servicemembers and provide immediate crisis medical behavioral illegal health services to military victims of sexual assault. the military operates 64 sexual assault related initiatives promulgated by secretary carter and his predecessors. over 100 command we grapple with the implementation of over 150 recommendations' including the government accountability office response system, response system, though sexual assault crimes panel of the judicial proceedings panel in the us commission on civil rights. together since 2012 these actions of fundamentally improved the department's response to the current sexual assault. without many options in place of how victims report sexual assault health and safety understand their legal rights and options. a fight against sexual assault. we continue to see an unprecedented increase which suggests growing confidence to the department's response system. estimates indicate overall occurrences have decreased since 2012. with that with that said there are still far too many instances of sexual assault the military and a long way to go. we do need to build on our current progress as we continue to work on the problem areas. i share a particular concern about retaliation. this is an area where we need to dig deeper. sexual assault but for the attention of all our people. there are already efforts underway to address retaliation, and sec. carter is directing me in the sec. of secretary of the military department to take additional actions squarely focused on this problem. i am up for the challenge. as i mentioned up front that has been an unprecedented focus for the past several years. much more work to be done. looking ahead looking ahead we will remain prevention focused and continue an uncompromising commitment. personally i intend to sustain a high level of leadership focus and attention that the issue so demands as we build on the progress'. our men and women in uniform deserve nothing less. the department sexual assault discuss details of the report and will stand might answer questions as well. >> good afternoon. i serve as the department senior subject matter advisor. i'm serve as a criminal investigator for the air force. for office director will be here to brief you except he is attending to a family a family emergency and our thoughts and prayers are with him and his family. the report we are releasing today the phils and annual requirement to provide congress with a number of reports of sexual assault we receive that involve servicemembers for the disposition of the progress we have made in improving sexual assault prevention in conjunction with the release of the report he has enacted new initiatives to improve our efforts that i we will discuss in more detail in a moment's. a moment's. as secretary carter and mr. carson indicated, this report is a bit different. we delivered a report to the president and combating sexual assault covering a three-year timeframe. greater detail. new today new today our follow-up analysis from the 2014 survey conducted by the rand corporation should the past your prevalence is down significantly and trending downward for men. as a reminder unwanted sexual contact is the proxy measure we have been using to estimate the prevalence of sexual assault since 2,006. it it is important to be able to link to prior survey findings we asked around to check on methods to ensure that we are surveying military personnel in the most effective way possible. as a result included a new measure of sexual assault developed by experts. a similar topline prevalence estimate but also found some meaningful new impacts which are detailed in a follow-up for being released alongside ours. also is the status of efforts to oversight bodies. the report provides the data the numbers will look familiar because they were reported last september. it's however, we have since gone through and validated data. we know reports contain information. i want to boil some of the messages down. overall occurrences have increased. sexual assault is an underreported crime. we implemented a number of policies to encourage greater reporting. victims who report are more likely to engage. in addition, is the only means by which we have to identify those who commit the crime and then hold the defenders appropriately accountable. these policies appear to be working as we have experienced an unprecedented increase in reports of sexual assault over the past two years. our final statistics for fy 14 indicate that the number of reports we received this year 11 percent over what we received last year and 70 percent of all we received in 2012. we now estimate the report of sexual assault from about one and four in four military victims up from one in ten military victims in 2012. we are also making progress in holding offenders appropriately accountable with authorities taking disciplinary action. that reflects a 3 percent change in what we reported last december that 73 percent but once again we find additional cases, and i include them in the numbers. our surveys have not shown progress in some form of retaliation. but i want to.out that our goal and asking about retaliation on surveys is to better assess victims well-being and that stress they encountered. this important encounter. this important feedback is making the program much stronger. i have a bit more to say about that. analysis of the 2014 survey reported previous findings of sexual harassment and gender discrimination specifically those who indicated experiencing sexual harassment are likely to indicate experience of sexual assault information we have had for some time. but the rand report and analysis thereof has refresh the data and provided additional information. the survey identified important differences and how sexual assault is perpetrated. more likely to describe the event as hazing's. these and other findings have improved prevention treatment efforts. once again they_important connections between unit climate and sexual assault white mini prevention efforts are focused on giving commanders at tools that they need to assess the given climates and promote solutions the respective contributions. i would now like to present you with some highlights from the 2014 survey and some new follow-up analysis. by the way rand corporation is going to be available to answer detailed questions that you have. as i stated previously, the survey conducted contains two measures to estimate the past your prevalence of sexual assault. the 1st measure unwanted sexual contact is the survey question the department has used since 2006 to estimate the number of military victims. using the measure there were an estimated 4.3 percent of women and .9% of men .9 percent of men on active duty who experience some form of unwanted sexual contact's. based on those rates we can do population estimates, and that number is about 18,900 active-duty members in the 12 months prior to being surveyed. the rates and the population estimates are down significantly over what was measured in 2012 as well as 2006. a 2nd measure to estimate the past your prevalence was also included in the survey last summer. this new measure developed by crime survey experts military attorneys, and statisticians was designed to better align with the sexual assault offenses. this new measure largely validated our prior survey approach and found similar topline estimates of sexual assault with 4.9% of women 4.9 percent of women and 1 percent of men indicating they experienced sexual assault in the past year. these rates are not statistically different than the rates of sexual assault indicated with the prior measure. like the prior measure this new measure shows risk of sexual assault five times greater for women than men. however,. however, because there are significantly more men in the military than women the estimated number out numbers the estimated number of active-duty women's. there are some other important findings with regard to how the experience of sexual assault in the military difference by gender. men are more likely to experience multiple incidents of being assaulted by multiple offenders during worker duty hours describe the event -- the event as hazing as opposed to having some sexual content. experience physical injuries however, men are less likely to experience a sexual assault that involved alcohol use or tell anyone about the event. important implications for training prevention, and treatment efforts as well. but look at those measures side-by-side. all total an estimated 20,300 active-duty members who indicated experiencing a sexual assault in 2014 using the rand measure. it seemed to yield its slightly different estimates they are within margins of error and are not different statistically. since december the population estimates have been refined slightly but i also want to illustrate to you the number of sexual assaults in the report being released today is about 148 more than reported back in december largely due to our data violation. >> what do you mean by data violation? >> in order to give those numbers we basically took a six-month process and extended it. as we went back and validated each of the reports they were an additional 148 reports we were able to include. we also asked ran to update our sexual harassment measure. using this measure rand estimated 22% of 22 percent of active-duty women and 7 percent of active-duty men indicated experiencing sexual harassment. while these estimates are important in and of themselves, they take on knew importance of regard to the relationship with sexual assault. the findings further validate the existing's of a continuance of harm in which sexual harassment and assault coexist and serve to reinforce each other, other, something we described more fully in our dod prevention strategy. please keep in mind that one may not cause the other. sexual harassment may not cause sexual assault but these problems are both closely related and highly correlated. i would now like to briefly outline some of the other work we have been doing. congress has passed 71 sections of law containing more than 100 unique requirements. in that same time frame the secretary of defense is directed 34 initiatives including four new initiatives. the response system panel released a final report and in that congressionally directed panel limited 132 recommendations to improve sexual assault prevention and the military justice system. while he made a great deal of progress we still have much to do especially with regard to victim perception of retaliation associated with reporting of sexual assault. when the president directed us to provide them a report in december 2013 we develop a list of metrics agreed upon by the department of defense and the white house. we chose retaliation because it's something we never want victims to face. elected to measure retaliation in three ways a measure from prior surveys our new survivor experience survey and through climate surveys at a military unit. these sources these sources allow us to get a better overall picture of survivor experience. unfortunately, our surveys have not demonstrated progress in this area. military members generally gave high marks to the unit leadership far too many indicated some kind of retaliation. survivors indicated they receive support from their commander that tended to wayne. it is important to note that survey responses should not be reviewed as an indicator of action. in other words there are other elements of an evidence that must be gathered in order to establish whether or not an offenses occurred. but we use survey data in order to assess well-being. since the department deliver the report we have been working hard to learn more. however, the data we gathered was not sufficient to allow visibility of the problem. we're going to revise our survey measure and improve the way we ask this, it's like the approach that rent check. so, what do we do? 's we enhance training that we give to first-line members in order to better allow them to identify and address behaviors is to be retaliatory. another initiative another initiative following the december report was for services to engage command. we are doing this through case management. each month installation commanders and their role as chair of case management are asking about retaliation experienced by the victims, 1st responders, and bystanders. those commanders in the role are referring allegations to the proper authority whether they be for services inspectors general investigators, military general, investigators military opportunity for commanders. having commanders asked regularly demonstrates our resolve to protect themselves and others to let everyone know this behavior has no place in the military secretary hagel issued a 3rd initiative which brings all stakeholders within the department together's as well as identifying commanders to address the behavior. as you heard we must do more the sec. is ordering us to develop a strategy to prevent the top -- retaliation. this last initiative joins three others being released. the sec.'s directing the services should learn from the 2014 survey and incorporate findings in the sexual assault prevention training and evaluate current treatment for men and women to ensure they reflect gender differences were it makes sense. that that evaluation will inform training to better address the specific needs of men and women. third, employing the common force wide survey strategy across the department to determine the prevalence of sexual assault and harassment. this will follow a number of recommendations as well as the lot that requires us to conduct our surveys every two years. important important for us as a department to speak with one voice on this topic however, in off year similar to what we do military service academies we will be conducting a force wide focus groups to identify emerging trends and follow up on matters captured in our biannual surveys. it was my intention today to give you a snapshot of our efforts. this unprecedented leadership has resulted in improved understanding of the problem and how it impacts the military. i would like to share with you a personal note. when i joined in 2007 we were barely receiving 1500 reports of sexual assault the year. this year we received 6131 almost three and a half times as many. more reporting can expect those with needed care and services, helps them heal from this terrible crime and restore their lives. even with the increasing for it by servicemembers sexual assault remains underreported and we encourage servicemembers to choose a reporting option that is right for them to make a report and get the help that they need. servicemembers can talk to someone. www. that helpline .org. >> i don't understand the disparity. >> what we are talking about is two different sources of data. the reduction in the prevalence of crime our estimate of how often the crime occurs command that is the numbers that we came up with some 18,900 how many we think are out there. however, as far as the numbers of reports that actually come in and get reported, that number is increased. people walking through the door it is an all-time high 's. >> fair to say that there were more incidences in the us military. >> it is not fair to say that. the estimates have come down while the number of reports come up. this top number is like a denominator. how many of those got reported is a numerator. >> what was the actual number? that is up from thirtysomething hundred. >> up from last year. the number was about 11 percent less. i don't have the number off the top of my head. >> washington examiner's. walk us through how you estimate the topline number every report you receive. how do you no there are about 20,000 sexual assaults and 6,000 reported. >> how we do that is to the survey that rent conducted last summer. what we did is asked. about 560,000 people were invited to take the survey. 170,000 respondents which is very good. out of those we asked if they experience the sexual assault by using the questions as well as the unwanted sexual contact measures. they don't ask. that is not what these are. questions are behaviorally based listing off behaviors. for example, did anyone force you to place -- did anyone force their penis in your mouth. they are clear language so that people understand what we're talking about which is industry-standard. based on that another criteria we are able to calculate an estimate rate for how many people said yes that happened to me. using the measure 4.9 percent of women indicated. about 1 percent of men. that percentage is important, but often times we wonder how many people that accounts for. we go and use the number of people in the military because the surveys are done representative with. we calculate the number of people it's about 8600 or so women. we characterize the number of men -- bring up the slide one more. one more. one more. keep going. right there. >> calculate how much this percentage's we get this number here. we estimate that about 10,600. we had those two together do the rounding and it is a little bit different. that is our denominator. the number of service reports are at an all-time high. numbers include 6131 not only servicemember victims but other civilians. because i do and apples to apples comparison and look at how many many reports versus how many i figure out there. that is where i get my estimate of about one in four victims of sexual assault make a report versus 2012. >> the number of assaults is dropping. >> yes. >> that include civilians. give us some sense. >> about a quarter of that number involve civilians. that is our's task from congress to report to them not only the sexual assault experienced by victims in the military but sexual assaults that may have been perpetrated by members of the military. if that might include some civilian victims which is what we carry in our data. >> you are the civilians? contractors? >> people of the local community, foreign nationals, anyone that comes in contact with the military perpetrator. >> can we talk a little bit about the retaliation issue? about two thirds of women who report. >> of the women on the survey indicated that they experience a sexual assault the past year and made a report to the department to a dod authority about two thirds of those women indicated they experience some form of retaliation associated with the report. >> we heard the zero-tolerance. this would indicate that message is not getting through to a lot of people. retaliating against someone. >> keep in mind that this takes time. ultimately i we will tell you last year we did focus groups of people to ask them what you think is anything changed in the us -- since you have been in the service. our senior enlisted folks. notice any kind of change and they said yes. night and day. that might always be one or two people at disregard. remember it can cause a lot of problems, but ultimately we're giving people the tools to assess, understand what they can do and hold people appropriately accountable. >> two thirds of the people reporting this are being retaliated against. >> here is the deal that number like i said my comments' is not necessarily incidence of retaliation the perception of victims of the taken the survey that they perceive they might have been retaliated against. i have treated victims of sexual assault. after you experienced trauma the world is a much darker place and you begin to see things differently. in order for things to be an actual retaliation episode to be established perception is just one element. there are additional evidence is the must be gathered and other elements to establish. establish. that is why i said our surveys are 62 percent and should not be taken as reports of retaliation. asks for the perception so that we can better assess the well-being. there is a lot more needed. >> with 10,600 small percentage, but a larger number of men and women experiencing sexual assault rely on a separate strategy. the men perceiving retaliation is not reportable. why is that the case? 's. >> that is a statistical issue. the margins of error become too wide. men probably did experience some retaliation but we did not have enough confidence in the results. if i tell you at a certain.the margin error could be 30 points above or below, i can report that. largely because of the men -- keep in mind of the men who experience a sexual assault very small numbers report. very few of them may have experienced retaliation afterwards. >> a follow-on a follow-on question. please forgive me if i am obtuse about the statistics. 6,131 sexual assaults reported. that is an 11 percent increase. >> yes. >> how do you get to conclude that have been fewer sexual assaults? >> a lot of people think that the number of reports of sexual assaults because how many incidents occur every year. that is a mistake. that is what we mean by it is underreported. occurs much more often than ever reported true in the military and civilian population as well. a public -- we adopted the public health approach in 2010 the basically married up surveying for prevalence surveying how often it occurs command matching that to how often it is ever reported. when we end up -- the reason why we do that's committee is he not only for sexual assault but influenza, all sorts of other public health problems. but we do that because we need to know what we think how bad can this could this problem be versus how much of it are we seeing in our reports. people come in and tell us about it. and what we are saying is that we have always had an ability to estimate the number of occurrences through surveys. 20,000 versus the number of reports that come in and we want to improve and increase the number of people that report this because what research says is that when you bring a more people in: they come into report they are more likely to engage and get that restorative help that they need in order to heal. >> the actual reports have gone up. >> the actual reports of gone up. >> or that it is going down. >> you got it. that is exactly right. >> that is sexual assault but does not include harassment. >> that's correct. >> the 19,000 number is way down from the 26,000 estimate. the break down by gender. >> the 26,000 by gender -- standby. last year's numbers. very similar and breakdown. i believe that it was -- you know what i will have to get back to you on that. i cannot recall off the top of my head. a very similar breakdown to what we have before. >> perception among males that this is hazing. is that.to an institutional pattern hear? a culture where it permeates and continues. >> i will have information. i don't have that breakdown beyond what they were able to get. >> the numbers between 2012 and 2013. can you just talk a little bit about the reasons why. >> i wish i could tell you. we do believe that it is a lot to do with our policies that are encouraging people to come forward. one of the things that we put in place in 2005 was restricted reporting which allow people to come in and engage care services but not initiate criminal investigation. people would rather suffer and tolerance rather than come forward and sometimes subject themselves to legal system. experts told us that we need that conference reporting. in addition what i would tell you is that it is the senior leadership focus that has a great deal to do with it. like i said it is before 2012 that i would tell you we worked very hard the sexual assault prevention response office to bring people forward and the policies in place. one of the things that was amazing it just energized everything. more people started talking about it. senior leaders started talking about it. every secretary has talked on it. things that were not happening before. these people i have more confidence about it. >> on the next washington journal a look at riots and protests and have a death of freddy gray is bringing attention of issues of race and policies of elected officials. the founding director for the center of race and democracy. .. the middle east is a totally different culture. >> britain is holding parliamentary elections next thursday in the leaders of the country's three main political parties answered questions from voters in a forum hosted by the bbc are they talked about education, immigration policies, membership in the european union and other topics. bbc's david dimbleby moderated this program. >> tonight david cameron ed miliband and nick clegg faced our audience in this town hall. this is question time. ♪ [applause] >> thank you very much. over the next 90 minutes the three party leaders are going to take the stage here and be questioned by her audience of course as ever, and audience that tonight is made up of three loss of 25% who intend to vote for each of those three party leaders and the remaining 25% who are either undecided or supporting other parties. during this program as ever on question time you can text or tweet are hashtag it bbc and text comments to a pre-981. push the red button and see what other people have said that let's now get cracking and hear from the leader of the conservative party david cameron. [applause] our first question comes from jenny johnson. jenny johnson. >> there are rumors you tend -- expect to cut --. >> no i don't want to do that. this report that was out today is something i rejected at the time as prime minister and i rejected again today but i do think it's important we go on per reforming welfare but it's worth remembering when i became prime minister we have a situation where some families were getting 70 80 to 90,000 pounds of housing benefits for one house and think him people watching this program who are going out working hard paying taxes to keep that family in the house. a house they could never afford to live in so we have got to go on reform of welfare. let's make sure that work always pays and lets go on doing what we have done for the last five years which is get 2 million more people back into work. it's the most important thing we can do helping people off welfare to work. that's the sort of country i want to build over the next five years. [applause] >> he said he didn't want to put that the rumors that you were going to cut child tax and maybe you did want to put to bed that rumor. >> yes, we increased it by -- pounds we were left an absolute nightmare situation to clear up i wanted to make sure that child poverty continued to fall and it has fallen under this government because of what we did. >> there in the back, in the middle there. >> you are quoting 20,000 pounds of benefits. how many families? >> it was the huge number but the fact is that everyone that was was being paid for by dozens of people going out to work paying their taxes and look if you believe as i do wish to go on reforming welfare making sure work always pays helping people back into work and keeping working people's taxes down that is my program. if you want unlimited welfare more increases in welfare and higher taxes for working people that is ed miliband program. i say keep the formula come is the right thing to do. >> i'm sorry but i think you are deceiving the british public or you know exactly what you're going to do but refusing the specifics and i find that very difficult. [applause] very difficult to understand and how can i possibly vote for you on that raises? >> let me answer that correctly. the last parliament we save 20 billion pounds on welfare and we need to save half out. as i safely don't save the money on welfare and other parties don't seem to want to do that then they will have to make deep cuts in things like the national health care and i want to increase spending on the national health service every year and the next parliament just as i did in the last parliament. but we can reduce welfare differences we get another 2 million people back to work that will cut the welfare. here's another tough choice we need to make pretty think we should say to young people in our country the idea that you can leave school and immediately sign on to jobseekers allowance and get a flat with a housing housing benefit i don't think there should be an option anymore. what we should do is save young people we want you to have a great future. make available they training places the can start your life on benefits. that's not the way we should work in britain today. [applause] the woman there in the back. >> that is all very well but what about those 18 to 21-year-olds who don't have a support network for those who don't have a family to turn to? is that a policy of them specifically going to result in more homeless young people mistreat? >> i think the lady makes a very important point. [applause] anyone who clearly can't stay at home who has to live independently because of abuse or what have you we have to make special provision for them and we will put the situation today where you can age at 18 lead schools i not get flat rather than work or earn and learn at the same time i don't think that's right. other countries in europe have almost abolished youth unemployment because they have taken this approach in germany or holland. i think we should do the same thing but we have created 2 million jobs in the last five years. if we stick to the economic plan that is work and we can continue to get unemployment down and give young people what i want which is the opportunity of an apprenticeship or university place and the chance for a great career starting a life on benefits is frankly no life at all. [applause] >> can you go back to the question that the man here asked that either you don't know what you're going to do if you specify putting people back to work or you do know when you are hiding it. you are asked for a thing that included massive cuts in child services. >> these were cuts i rejected them. >> you asked for them. where they come from? >> you will remember step back a second what we inherited. i became prime minister of the time when there was no money and in every mess with me everywhere. there it is dear chief secretary i'm afraid there is no money. that is the situation i inherited so we we have had to make difficult decisions over the last five years and i accept and not everyone the decisions has been easy for people but the truth is five years on the deficit in half, 2 million people are back a work the economy is growing faster than any major economy in the western world. this election is about do we build on that foundation and build a strong country where you can get a job, you can keep your money to spend as you choose we can build houses for people to buy or do we go back to the start with ed miliband propped up by the bbc with even more borrowing and more spending and more debt all of the things that landed us in that mess in the first place. i never want us to go back there again. [applause] >> clearly there are some people who are worried that you have a plan to cut child credit and tax credits. are you saying absolutely to guarantee? >> first of all the child tax credit we increased. child benefit to me as one of the most important benefits there is. it goes directly to the family normally to the mother, 20 pounds for the first trial, 14 for the second. the key part of families budgets in this country. that is not what we need to change. what would need to change is again what did i inherit? a system where if you worked an extra hour or an extra shift he could sometimes find you actually lost money from that extra hour are that asks dura shift. every hour you work you keep all the money you earn. that will save money of the welfare savings we need to make to. >> a couple more people. >> things are so fantastic and we have -- why are more families relying on food banks and more children in poverty than ever before? [applause] >> i think you ask a key question. i'm not saying that everything is perfect. i'm saying we have not finished the work they that's why i'm so keen to do another five years of continuing to get the country back to work to build a strong economy to pay down our debts and to hang on to the good -- hand on the good country to our children. it takes a long time to fix the mess that up i was left to clear up but what i would say is we are halfway through. you can keep the team building a stronger economy or you can go back to the team frankly that were the ones that designed the building that fell down the purse -- first place. >> i will come to you. >> you talk about the sort of country you want to hand down to your children. i do want to hand down a country to my child where they are our food banks and people have died from the bedroom tax. we have cases where people -- a woman died and received a demand for attacks for the spare room the disabled daughter left behind. that's not a country i want to hand down to my child. [applause] >> first of all let me say i don't want anyone to have to rely on the food bank in our country. it's important they are there but i don't want anyone to have to rely on it. >> and they do. >> the most important and we can do is to get more people into work they that's the best route out of poverty. 2 million more jobs is more than the rest of europe put together but at least finish the job? one and 50 jobs is a zero contract the two-thirds of the jobs we have created or full-time. if you are saying the job isn't finished i absolutely agree and that's why i'm so passionate about completing the job. you oust what kind of the country do you want to pass down to her children to? i don't want us to go on borrowing year after year racking up debt that we will ask our children to pay because we didn't have the courage to pay them off ourselves. [applause] this goes to the heart of election campaign but ed miliband will stand here in a few minutes time. he will say go on with the budget deficit forever. i'm saying once the economy starts to grow you should put money aside for a rainy day otherwise we will burden our children too much debt. >> why not debate debate with them directly instead of pointing fingers? [applause] >> we debate in the house of commons 146 times. it's not always that instructive. i think this is giving you the chance to ask questions directly and i think this is more powerful than a television debate. sino. >> let's go to a similar question. lauren jasper. >> isn't a lot to guarantee your note tax rise promise an acknowledgment that you are in the habit of lying about your pre-election promises? >> this was the announcement yesterday. >> i really want to be clear with you over the last five years we have make difficult decisions and talked about some of that tonight. it hasn't been easy for many people in britain but i think it's the right thing to do. i now know what is in the books. i know what needs to be done and i know we can finish the job without putting up people's taxes. my fear is this, those people who proposed every step we have taken every cut we have had to make i think they will get a cut of their own which is to put up taxes to reach into your pay packet and cut your pay. i don't want to do that. if you want a government that finds more efficiencies in government spending that goes on reforming welfare and doesn't put up taxes for working people indeed cuts taxes for working people that's me. if you want a government that goes on within reformed welfare that doesn't find savings in government spending and puts up taxes that the other. >> the question is why do you need a law? >> i want to put it beyond a doubt that i want hard people -- hard-working people who want to have a better future for themselves and their families either want them to know that we are not going to put up vat or national insurance or income tax because we know we can make savings without having to attack welfare. >> when alastair darling tried the same thing your chancellor said no other chancellor in history at the office is nobody to pass a lot to convince people he has the political will to implement his own budget. why do you suddenly need to pass a law which can be changed as we know. >> the budget deficit was forecast bigger than it deficit increase. that is what we inherited to making that promise was meaningless. let me be clear about what still needs to be done. one out of every hundred pounds the government spends for the each of the next two years the efficiencies that are needed and then we can start to see spending growing again to make sure we go on putting money into our schools and hospitals and important public services. >> more or less i was going to say what you said. >> the woman there. >> you say you know what needs to be done so. [inaudible] [applause] what we are saying is we need to make another 30 billion in savings. that's the one in 100 pounds so 5 billion of that should come from the tax invaders and aggressive tax avoiders do a dawn out every year in government to continue to do that. we then didn't mean to go on making savings through efficiencies in the welfare savings that i've talked about. that's my plan and that gets us to it touches surplus. it means we are paying him a debt, passing on a better country to our children and crucially not putting up taxes. indeed i want to cut people's taxes. people talk about the cost of living. the biggest element is the tax you pay at the end of the month and you should be able to earn 12,000 by the pounds of your before you start paying income tax. that would give people minimum wage working 30 hours a week we should stop taxing poor people in this country in the way we do today. >> that was not my question mr. cameron. >> let's have another question. >> why do you think --. >> another question on trust. why do you think voters don't trust your party? >> all i can say is what i think i believe in but my disabled son was desperately ill and went to the nhs night after night to different hospitals hospitals and i was in different places but i got the most fantastic air support and i would say love for those people for my family and my son. it was always there for me and i want to make sure it's there for the families in our country. i showed you that note about we had no money. when we got that note we still made a big decision which was we said yes we will have to make cuts in some areas of government spending but the nhs is going to get more money every year and it has had more money. that's why there are 9000 more in 7000 more nurses and carrying out millions more operations each year. do i think it's perfect? no i don't deny that big ambition for the next five years which is to deliver a seven day week nhs including seven day aid in the morning at eight in the evening for gp surgeries. i know we can do that because we are born to 8 million people in the country. to finish the job and make sure we have gp surgeons across our country. that will help to access the nhs. [applause] >> why spend 3 billion on what was described as damaging and distracting reorganizations? >> the changes we have made they are saving money at the nhs and because we got rid of 20,000 administrators and bureaucrats that is one of the ways we have been able to fund the extra doctors and nurses. when i became prime minister the growth in the number of bureaucrats was going up. when i made the point it's been a recovery job. the nhs is stronger today. >> on the nhs -- >> good evening mr. cameron. promising a billion for the house services surely anyone with half a brain can see it's sustainable and is present form pouring more money into it. what are your thoughts on that? >> what do you mean? >> we are to put six gdp into the house service. >> it's very dangerous elections to disagree with people. >> you are wrong. [applause] >> i look at our health system and it comes out strongly on its performance. as we become my wealthier countries which should put more money into our nhs since it's there for us. there's a lot we can do to take pressure off the nhs. we have to do better in terms of public health. we have to do better in terms of health education. there are also check things smoking and other things that are public health issues that can take the pressure off the nhs. i'm a profound believer that ours is the right -- and that as long as i am prime ministry will be available and we will go on putting the money it needs into not least because we at made the difficult decisions elsewhere. >> good evening mr. cameron. i would just like to ask is it so difficult to achieve the emergency waiting times and have you found the best way? it seems every week in the media we are not hitting these --. >> i think you make a really good point made the local hospital here goes me the target of 95% of people within four hours. it's important to have that target because we want to know we are getting the best out of her nhs. the problem we have had recently as the numbers in our country and the growth of the population in our country has put a lot of pressure on the nhs and having a seven-day opening for gps and making sure gp surgeons are easier to access i think that will take pressure off of the nhs. also social care with the nhs of the combined budgets and make sure we help to get elderly people out of the hospital to be looked at -- to be looked after at home. it's always going to be hard work to make sure we deliver these. >> do you have an answer to the question which is why should people trust the nhs? >> to me is my life's work and i believe the nhs grows with the conservative government. i care about it passionately and i have seven days left to prove to people that the nhs together and i make this point we only have a strong nhs if you have a strong economy. don't put that at risk. do you know where they cut the nhs, portugal cut the nhs 17% greece catastrophic economy cut the nhs 17%. is the economy said thank her you can't support the health service. [applause] >> let's go on. a question from bob wilson. >> mr. cameron i would like to ask if we remain in the e.u. how would you and how can you -- immigration. [applause] >> a very good question. when you control immigration from outside the e.u. and the way we do now but i is closing down these bogus colleges and we close down 800 of them with a cap on migration for economic reasons. inside the ee of the key changes that i'm going to make a few elect me first of all anyone coming from an e.u. country cannot claim unemployment assets while looking for a job. if they are here after six months and don't have a job they have to go home. third you have to work here for for years to pay into the system before you get tax credits and benefits out of the system and forth if you are living here but your family is back at home he will no longer be able to send the child meant that home to your family. those changes are big changes and they will make a difference and help us to control immigration. if i'm prime minister that's what you will get. [applause] >> a couple of points. first of all we look to the figures under 6% of e.u. nationals living in this country claiming benefits of any kind. >> you are saying stopping that is going to reduce the number. >> let me answer that one. at the moment someone coming from an e.u. country pays 8000 pounds to come and work here. the british people can work in other european countries but we do have the benefit system that skews it in favor of people coming to work here. that leads to change. you need a prime minister that is prepared to get change. >> i hope they do. >> i hope they do too read. >> how do you get the net migration from outside of the e.u.? >> i want to see net immigration to the e.u. down under 100,000. the reason i said that target that in the 1990s we were members of the e.u. and we had a successful economy but before neighbor came and opened the doors we did have net migration in the tens of thousands not the hundreds of thousands i believe that's the right -- >> the person in the orange. >> he made similar promises in 2010. how can we believe you now? >> i made the promise outside the e.u. we did get immigration. inside the e.u. partly because the rest of the economy is not performed and we have created more jobs than the rest of the e.u. put together. it's been difficult to meet that target. i now need to make these benefit changes the things i have just described and i need to negotiate the siniora. i would argue i have a track record of that. i cut the budget that urged prime minister to do it. i vetoed the european treaty kept britain out of the euro. i can deliver these things in europe but i need your mandate in seven days time to get out there and when a good deal for britain that controls immigration and gets us to a better position in europe and with me you will get that in a referendum. you the british people will these deciding to 42017. >> good evening mr. cameron. i work in housing and i deal a lot with the homeless. a lot of those come from eastern european countries who are not often to ask -- able to access those benefits we are talking about. what can the community do dealing with that because it causes problems with relation to crime. >> we need to go back to system much more aware. of course you are free to work in a different european country but you are not free to travel around -- freedom of movement is to take a job. those rules need to be tougher. that is not what our benefit system is therefore. >> mr. cameron all of these questions you are being asked have a moral dimension and you keep answering them in terms of economics. i would like you to engage more with the morals of these questions. [applause] >> to me helping someone get a job as a moral dimension. gives him the dignity and pride that comes with work. helping someone get in a partnership has a moral dimension to give someone a chance for a career and success. building a house for young family can afford to buy has a moral dimension because it gives them a state for the country they live in. these plans i have over the next five years are about taking the economic foundation we have built in these last five years all the shared sacrifice but not putting that's a waste of saying let's turn that into jobs and to pay into houses in good school places. also into that sense at the end of your life that this is a country where if you work hard and you save and do the right thing you should get the dignity and security in retirement that i think is the right of everyone who lives in our country. [applause] >> hi david. if you are in a situation we have to team up with another party what policies would you be willing to compromise? [applause] i'm going to disappoint you because we have seven days to go and i'm going to fight everything i've got for those next seven days to get the overall majority. the reason why think that's right is i think a strong accountable government that's the trouble with coalition. have a great manifesto. you go into some dark room with nick clegg or someone else and you start giving away some of the things in the renewal program. i don't want to do that. we have a great program creating these these houses in funding these apprenticeships helping people with pensions. this year is -- european referendum is a red line. i don't want to get these things away so i will spend the next seven days for victor victor and if enough people watching this program back may we can have the whole of the manifesto rather than away in a darkened room. >> what you said five years ago we must sort things out as quickly as possible for the good of the country. i want to make a big open comprehensive offer to the liberal democrats. [applause] >> what i'm saying is the last election was decisive. i did the right thing i believe by forming a coalition having a decisive government to deal with the left. this time i think we can go one better. i'm saying let's have a decisive outcome and these things don't have to be compromised on and we can have a really decisive government more accountable government for you as a citizen. >> winning by a mile is that good hope. let's say you don't and what if you have to be in coalition with someone else? >> let me give one specific example. i think the british people really do deserve a referendum on whether to stay in a reformed european union or leave. i've been very clear that i will not lead a government that does not deliver that pledge. i couldn't be clearer about that red line. i think people have been let down too many times about this issue. i want everyone holding that steady pencil in their hands in the voting booth in a weeks time to know if you get me as i minister you get a chance to enact the referendum. >> if you couldn't govern without the liberal democrats you wouldn't govern with them either. >> you have correctly interpreted what i've said. >> what happens to the government of the country? >> i'm saying i hope to win the election we are 23 cents short of an overall majority. i hope to govern the country as the majority but if i don't for whatever reason i have been very clear i would not be the government that did not contain that pledge. >> you would be more likely to win the overall majority if you treated voters with the intelligence they have an answer their questions in terms of what f7 what might happen if there was a coalition. >> i think it's fair in the last seven days to do a gig you can to try to win. i want to use the limited time i have got including the 28 minutes tonight to explain why a conservative majority government would be good for britain. think we would go further and faster in including the deficit and building homes and providing those tensions. let me make this point. people know if we fall short i will do the right thing for the country. i did last time and i would again. particularly when you are faced with the alternative of a labour government-backed by the snp people who don't want our country to succeed or exist. if that's the alternative put your trust in 23 more seats for the good service and we'd have a strong and clear government. >> david cameron thank you very much. >> thank you very much. [applause] >> our next party leader is from the labour party the leader of the labour party welcome ed miliband please. [applause] >> thank you very much. mr. miliband the first question is from elizabeth moody. >> good evening mr. miliband. five years ago the outgoing labor treasury minister left a message there is no money left. how can we trust the labour party with the u.k. economy? >> we just sought by the way. david cameron carried it in his pocket. >> it's his regular prop. let me directly address you elizabeth. there was a global financial crisis. there was a high deficit. that deficit hasn't been cleared. would be the mission of my government to cut the deficit every year and balance the books. let me tell you how i'm going to do it. first of all we have their taxes so we will first the tax cut for the richest in our society millionaire so i can justify a 43,000 pounds tax cut. secondly we will protect key areas like health and education but outside this key areas we have to get the deficit down. the final thing concerns are living standards. we see living standards falling. as a result low living standards means lower tax revenue for the government and that is why the deficit hasn't been been cleared as a three-part plan to make sure we balance the books. >> the question was looking back why should we trust labor in light of what happened before? for six years before the crash you increased year-on-year on year. >> the debt and the deficit were low but for the financial crisis. >> you are increasing the deficit. >> we got it wrong on bank regulation. the mistake we made and i say this to this audience was the bank's were more properly regulated. the question you have got to consider for the future is who's going to get right for the future. we have learned that lesson. we have learned that lesson for the future. going into an election spending in key areas will fall. that's because i'm so determined back to elizabeth that we live within our means. [applause] >> just going back to your latter letter that mr. cameron mr. cameron -- he called a prop. the blast by tears up and hard work and the economy is improving. what worries me is he called that letter a joke. let me tell you running a business in the last few years is anything but a joke and if that's the way your party wants to treat the economy how can we trust you? [applause] >> may i ask what your business does? >> i employ 76 people here in the city. >> with me tell you very specifically what i think we need to do for businesses like yours and this does go to the big choice of this election. some people will tell you the way we succeed as a country as long as there are a few people at the top that do well in large corporations that is what powers the economy. that is your choice the next five years. i think when every person or country succeeds that -- for your business we would mag a different choice. he wants to cut taxes for the largest businesses. i would cut your business rates if i were prime minister. that's important i hope for your business but i think it tells a bigger story about how britain succeeds. as i say i think it's succeeds not just with a few successful corporations but millions of businesses and millions of working people. >> that wasn't the question i asked you. i asked you why i should trust the chancellor who thinks a letter like that was a joke. if he worked in the corporation were fired he would not be allowed that to do that job. [applause] >> let me tell you he takes incredibly seriously the need to get the deficit down. he was on the front page of our manifesto and that is why he has the shadow chancellor's going into this election. you have to make your decision but we are deadly serious about getting the deficit down. >> i also think mr. miliband you talk about big businesses. tesco have had a pretty tough time and they talked about behaving after the problems they have made. that's something the politicians have got to think about too. >> the one thing i think the business needs and this is the difference in view we need to stay within the european union. i think it would be a disaster or business. give david cameron credit i'm afraid he's been dragged by his party to exit from the e.u.. i have to say this audience i've got to say to this audience that would be a real problem for our country. >> the woman up there in the back. >> we talk about unpaid tax. if your party were empowered to think you could bridge the gap between the richest and the poorest? >> what is your name? >> shirley. >> it's a great question surely and let me in answer it directly. yes and the rule that shirley is referring to basically means you can live here and work here and be permanently settled here but not pay taxes here. it's been in place believe it or not or 200 years. that's that's 40 prime ministers. i'm going to get rid of it because i believe in a country where there's one law for all not one for the rich and powerful and another rule for everyone else. david cameron wants to defend that rule and i think he's wrong. i think we have to have tax avoidance and make the dash live up to their responsibilities. [applause] >> i hope we can reach the man sitting behind me here. >> a very simple question, do you accept that the labour in power overspend? >> no i don't and i note you may not agree with that but let me say very clearly. >> even with all the borrowing? >> me tell you there are schools that have been rebuilt in our country. there are hospitals that were rebuilt. there were sure star centers that would help which would not happen so i don't agree with that. let me explain to you the way i see it read as a global financial crisis which cause the deficit to rise. president obama isn't dealing with a high deficit because we build schools and hospitals. he is dealing with a high deficit because there was a global financial crisis. i said to this gentleman spending has to fall and is that is why we will reduce spending. >> on the financial crisis, australia and some of the other countries didn't suffer. this country suffered because -- part of the social services. how can you stand there and say you can overspend an end to up and gripped in this country? that is absolute ludicrous and you are frankly just lying. [applause] >> i guess i'm not really convincing you. >> you are not going to convince me because the tax beat for themselves. he stood there and said you didn't overspend. if i can't afford to buy a pint i have overspend and it means i haven't got any money left. we have had a government of 13 years and during that her tenure. mackey spent, you spend and you sold goal when it was low. if we sold the gold now we would be pretty much better off. >> can you explain the point you made. let me come back on this because you said something very important. some countries didn't suffer but that's because they were less exposed to financial services. >> services put millions and millions of pounds into this country. millions of pounds which you then spent. >> i just want to make this point. i think that we didn't do enough of is built up other industries. the reality is we didn't do enough on apprenticeships. we didn't do enough in industrial and we are not doing enough now. my point is we need a more diverse industrial base. >> we will keep moving around the audience. >> if he can't accept that he overspend of the less government then why on earth should we trust you not to do it again? they have cut the deficit by half. why should we trust you not to do the same thing when you say you didn't overspend? [applause] >> you another audience member senate goes back to elizabeth's question. there are some parties in the election saying no cuts at all. mr. cameron although he didn't say this earlier wants to double cuts next year. not the same cuts as the last parliament, double the cuts. i think it would be incredibly dangerous for our health service. >> you want people for my age group to be in debt yet you are committing to borrowing more. >> we are committing to a talents plan. i tried to set out what the balance plan is but you and others will have to make a judgment about this but i think we can balance the books without sacrificing public services and tax credits. jenny asked the question earlier, where's jenny who asked the question? jenny i'm afraid david cameron may have sounded like answered your question but he didn't. he didn't really give you guarantee. i'm going to give you that guarantee tonight but i'm not going to talk -- cut your tax credits in child in assets. that would be the wrong thing to do for our country in the wrong thing to do for family finances. i've got to say after mr. cameron's answers tonight tax credits and child benefit are in the ballot this election. millions of families losing thousands of pounds because of the cuts plan he has. i do disagree with mr. cameron. have a different plan. >> at thing we should move on to another subject and simon wilkinson please. >> ways. >> was the labour party misleading the country but having to do a deal with the s&p in the event of a minority labour government? [applause] >> let me be plain. we are not going to do a deal for the scottish national party. we are not going to have a coalition and let me say this to you simon. if it meant we weren't going to be in government not doing coalition not having a deal and so be it. i'm not going to sacrifice the future of our country the unity of our country and i'm not going to get into s&p demands around trite trident the deficit or anything like that. i want to repeat this point to you. i'm not going to have a labor government if it means deals or coalitions with the scottish national party. i want to say to the voters in scotland there is no easy route to bode s&p and get a labor government. if you want a labor government in a to vote labour read snap what are the members of the cabinet say when you disagree with that? and he wouldn't put forward eight queen --. >> blue do want to put forward the edit labor speech preview asked me about deals and coalitions. they're not going to happen. i couldn't be clearer. >> he said he would rather not have a labor government than a labor government supported by the s&p? >> a coalition ordeal. i've been asked about lots of different kinds of deals. coalition. >> coalition explained but what is ideal? >> confidence and supply which is where you have an arrangement. i'm not doing that. >> c. would rather lose offers and not have a labor government? >> at the price of having a labor government is dealing with the scottish labour party it's not going to happen. [applause] >> i would like to hear from people that i haven't spoken already. >> in that case you are not going to win more seats in the u.k. with a labor government. [applause] >> first of all i don't want to sound like the previous look mr. cameron but i work for the majority labour government. i'm going to fight as hard as i can for as many seats as they can available for the house of commons. i want to make this point about the s&p and the same applies to the u.k.. the reason why we reject the s&p since their die hard up opponents that the reason i rejected as they want to break up the country and not only that they used to say as a referendum was a once-in-a-lifetime experience. that's what they said before the last referenda and now they are opening the door to another referendum in another five years. >> the problem is you do sound a lot like the other guy because both of you seem to not entertain the possibility you might not get a majority which is absolutely ridiculous and you really need to be honest with voters about what you might do in the event that you don't. >> which are named? >> rebecca. >> let me try to do better than the other guy on this one. he was saying at the end david cameron that if you didn't get a majority it meant this business of going into a darkened room with nick clegg. i don't like the sound of that at all for a whole range of reasons but i don't like it for one particular reason. i'm not going to stop bartering away my manifesto whatever the outcome of the election. even if i don't win a majority i have got a manifesto. some people may have read it at the manifesto is out there. if i'm the prime minister i'm going to do everything i can to get my manifesto. i think we are in a new world in britain. it was the first coalition this coalition there had been for a long time but in my view we don't have a majority government it's not about saying go into a darkened room with somebody and start -- or manifesto. that isn't what labour voters are voting for. >> we will go to another subject radial aisha. >> what makes you are few more important than the british people when it comes to the e.u. and a referendum? >> where is alicia? >> it's actually a lisa. >> is that leadership alicia and what we will achieve this prime minister. when i look at the country what do i think the biggest problems of the country are? i think five years of wages falling behind bills and the threat is going to happen again. five years of young people will have a worse light than their parents in five years the -- crisis. if i'm prime minister in seven or eight days time i want to spend all of my energies on those issues not on deciding whether we want to exit the european union but i think would be a disaster. >> your view is more important than mine and everybody else's? [applause] >> i do respect that point of view but i don't agree with that. i'm putting my views forward and i think -- >> and we don't put ours forward? >> you do in the general election one of things about leadership is you don't always do at the polls tell you to do. you do it because it's the right thing for the country. i've got to level with you on level with the country that i don't think the right for our current -- thinker country to do now is to plunge ourselves into tears that the millions of jobs at the panoma for businesses and families will be a disaster. there's one thing i will say to you which is any further transfer of powers from britain to the european union it might be to happen. in a way you've got to make your judgment about what is the most important issue to you. for me this and trying to get out of the e.u.. [applause] >> a second election because you want a former majority government? >> you are not going to go at the smp. >> i want to govern to change the country and i think i have to say the stakes are incredibly high. you get this choice once every five years. do you want the country for the riches in moore's powerful that the ladies talk about or jenny her tax credits aren't safe. that's the choice in this election. >> a couple more people. the woman there and i will come to you and we move on. >> the party has made cuts to education. how do you propose to undo the damage done by the savage cuts? >> i want to stick to the subject of the e.u. if you don't mind while we are on it. >> mr. miliband someone asked you a question about forming a coalition and you said i'm a majority mr. cameron said the same. you comprehend how much respect he would get from the audience if you're truly honest. [applause] >> i'm absolutely not guaranteeing a majority. i m. working for but i try to answer the lady in the end that asked a question about the circumstances of not not getting majority and i tried to outline my approach. as i said my approach is not to barter away different bits of the manifesto. the reason i say that is because i think trust which is a fragile thing anyways incredibly low. the idea that nick clegg says i'm breaking my tuition fees promise and david cameron says i'm breaking my -- promise and they have win each other that's not going to be my approach. if i'm prime minister i'm going to seek all of my manifesto. >> back to the lady, one brief question on this if you would. >> the party made up to 24% cuts in education. how do you propose to undo the damage done by the savage cuts to education made by this government? >> have you had experience? >> yes i have. >> i can't guarantee to reverse what is sort of what is sorted what is sort have been done but what we say for the future is that we will protect education spending. it will be protected and leased against inflation. the reason why we have made that choice is we haven't made and other government departments because investing in the future and education is essential not just for society but our economy as well. i can't promise to immediately reverse the damage i might want to make a false promise. >> we have made that promise. >> mr. miliband -- i'm over here. >> sorry. >> is a vote for yourself -- [inaudible] >> no and let me explain why. i believe in a welfare system with responsibility. responsibility means that you can work you should work. we are the only party in this election putting forward a proposal to say that if you are a young person unemployed for more than year we will guarantee you a job working with the private sector but if you don't take the job you will lose benefits. think the responsibilities a foundation of a welfare system and let me say one other thing. it's important to keep control the welfare bill. take the housing benefit. it may not be obvious but housing benefit ills have gone up a lot in the last five years. the reason for that is we have an economy based on low pay and are not building enough homes. that's why we have an 80-pound minimum wage. dealing with the welfare of no isn't our responsibility but it's also about attacking underlying factors that are driving the welfare. this is all connected. because our economy does work for most people and works for the richest in my view it means the welfare bill is higher. means people are having a harder life. so we will keep it under control. >> do you think it's a legitimate lifestyle choice? you say you will guarantee jobs. where are the jobs going to come from? >> they will come from working at the private sector to help create those jobs. apprenticeships for young people so there are still people that the industry needs. cutting business rates which will also help grow the economy and help grow jobs. the big industries and that the future like green energy. take climate change. some people say the burden. it's a necessity to tackle it at it's a chance is for lead -- to leave his country. >> could we come back to welfare? [applause] is your plan to cut the welfare bill? >> we are going to keep -- >> your commitment to being tough on welfare amounts to almost nothing. >> i don't agree with him. >> where have they gone wrong? >> let me give you an example. i want to help pensioners in our country. we have a triple lock on they pension but we have said the winter fuel allowance will not continue to go to pensions to low 43,000 a year. i can justify that in the times where and at this point about the drivers of welfare bill and what is making its go up as the key thing that's on the line. >> the woman and the spectacles back there. >> are you essentially telling us that you are expecting the private sector to fund the gaps in the welfare bill because there's only so much employers can do. you can't keep -- you were talking about contracts changes. you are talking about getting people to work in the private sector after year. how are employers supposed to afford all this stuff? being an employer is a very expensive business as it is. >> we are definitely not expecting employers to fund a welfare bill but my point is the welfare bill is spending billions of pounds subsidizing low pay in our country. i'm afraid that's the reality. we have got to raise minimum wage in a way that is cautious and we have got to do it so it doesn't put people out of work and that's what we will do but we have also got to confront the fact that because we are one of the low-paying capitals of europe we are spending tens of billions of pounds on welfare as a result of that. it's about working with the private sector to make sure you can raise wages -- wages. >> chris mcghee please. >> contracts will prevent me from growing my small business. isn't it time the labour party party -- before gimmicks and sound bytes? [applause] >> there is evidence that more people like them than dislike them. >> what is your business? >> its tourism so when the sunshine i have this as and when it doesn't i don't. >> let me tell you about our policy. our policy is this after 12 weeks an employee will have a right to a regular contract based on the average number of hours they have gone. if the employee wants to carry on with the zero hours contract they can but we think there should be mean to the employee. let me explain why i say that and i know this may be difficult for your business and let me explain the reasons for that. i don't think we can base the future of our economy on the idea that people don't know for one day to the next how many hours they are doing and what wage they will be getting. mr. cameron said the other day he couldn't live on the zero contract. if we can't live on it i think think -- i don't think we should make the british people live on it. [applause] >> ryan please. >> what are you going to differently about immigration? >> i will change labour's position and let me tell you what we are going to do. under labor government when people come here they won't get benefits for at least the first two years. we will ensure that our public services are people learning and everybody who comes here should learn english and thirdly we will stop something which i think frankly should have been stopped a long time ago which is employers bringing people into this country exploiting migrant labor and undercutting wages. let me give you a factor ryan. [applause] there have been two prosecutions for failure to pay minimum wage in the last five years. the notion that reflects what happens in the world of work is nonsense nonsense and the government on migration advisor committee is said that as one of the things that is bringing low skill labor. the notion and emphasize some because most employers donated canned getaway with undercutting wages. the last thing i want to say is this. some people say people's concerns are real and i see they might own own constituency and we will deal with people's concerns. >> by what you set a target then she said. why do you refuse to set a target when she criticizes the conservative policy but isn't willing to commit a number at all. is it just a free-for-all anyone wants to come here can come you regardless of economic suitability or affordability and where is everyone going to live? [applause] .. david cameron stood on the stage five years ago and said he'd get net yi78 grace to 10,000. it's 219,000. >> but you're not even -- >> let him answer. >> i'm not going to pluck a target out of the air. it's not the right thing to do. i can't -- trust in politics trust is so low in politics for reasons i understand, because of broken promises in the past. i want to be the first politician to underpromise and overdeliver, not overpromise and underdeliver. and look, sometimes -- sometimes that means i'll get a hard time from people like jo because i'm not making the easy promise. but i'm not the guy who's going to make the easy promises. because all it does is it makes people think you're all going to break your promises. >> no, no no. i'm afraid we've come to the end of those 28 minutes. >> it flew by for me. maybe not for the audience. >> thank you very much, mr. miliband miliband. >> thank you. [ applause ] >> so the last of our three leaders now. from the liberal democrat party, the leader of the liberal democrats, would you welcome nick clegg.

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