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their way to keep trump out of the trial. abc news reports that prosecutors have been coaching their witnesses not to mention trump's name or even that manafort lives in trump tower. the judge in the case has warned that bringing up manafort's ties to trump could unduly influence jurors. there is at least one thing about this trial that is important to the relationship between paul manafort and donald trump. the first witness today was tad devine, chief strategist for bernie sanders' an presidential campaign who worked with manafort on political campaigns in ukraine. the prosecution called him as their first witness to have him describe how much work manafort was doing in ukraine and how lucrative it was. before we came on the air, we got a rush version of the transcript from today's hearing. i'm not going to be able to act out a whole conversation but here's one little bit of the prosecutor's opening statement worth hear. this was the prosecutor today, "up until 2014, paul manafort was flush with cash and hiding a lot of it from the irs, but in
from manafort's defense where they brought up gates and they said look, it's not really all about witnesses. there's a lot of paper here. you'll see it in manafort's own happened and his own e-mails. the prosecutors said we have the burden of proof here and we're happy to bear it, which i took to mean they think there's ample proof that manafort's guilty. >> yeah, arm chair lawyering is very dangerous but one thing that arm chair lawyers like myself heard when the indictments were first unsealed was that this was a paper case that all the evidence was in the charging documents. was there a sense in the courtroom today that this was an airtight case or was there the anticipation that this could go anywhere? >> i think a lot of observers still there it's a pretty strong case with gates' testimony you get not only the financial machinations surrounding the offshore bank accounts but the questions of bank fraud that arose in some part during the trump campaign, these applications for large loans
that went from i think the middle of 2016 through early 2017. rick gates allegedly had direct involvement in that the in doctor some of the paperwork involved. so he will be an important witness on at least some of the charges but most people i think watching believe the defense is trying to pitch to maybe get one or two kind of holdout jurors who will buy the fact that rick gates engineered this fraud and that somehow manafort was just along for the wide even though he was the one at the top of the food chain here, and he was the one really making the big bucks. >> he's the one with the history of doing business in this part of the world. take us through jury selection. i read in your note or some other reporting that was the most animated you all au saw paul manafort. >> the yeah, manafort seemed subdued for a long time in a lot of these hearings both in d.c. and virginia. he obviously ended up being jailed for the last month or month and a half or so which was something that his lawyers will tried to avoid. that seemed to dampen his
emotions somewhat. today he was very involved during jury selection when they were trying to figure out which jurors to strike, which jurors who keep. he was flipping flu pads and notes at the defense table. he was chatting with several of his lawyers rather animatedly and seemed to be making notes sort of maybe striking people out or having lengthy discussions with his counsel about which of these jurors might be most advantageous to him. ultimately they ended up with six men and six women on this jury who will decide his fate at least in this first trial. >> i read this and i wonder this -- if i read this correctly. he was wearing a suit today. we've seen other photos where he's wearing a jumpsuit. the jurors will not be informed or see any images of him wearing that jumpsuit. why would that be? >> they typically would not. usually the prison jumpsuits are only used for arraignments and pretrial hearings. whenever someone is exposed to
the jury, they're usually brought flu street clothes, whether you're talking about a white collar case or violent kram. they're not told whether the defendant is in custody or free on bay. it's considered that would be presently additional if you see somebody brought into the courtroom in shackles a lot of jurors may think this person is dangerous or presump tubally guilty. so courts and judges are usually pretty careful that those sorts of things taking off the handcuffs that kind off stuff takes place outside the courtroom where the jurors can't catch a glimpse of it. >> no ostrich cope coat, right? >> no, it seemed like a pretty standard business suit. probably more expensive than my suit. i doubt it's one of the $10,000 or $15,000 numbers he was buying in new york. >> josh gerstein, senior white house reporter for politico and a brand-new msnbc contributor. we're lucky to have you.
joining us former u.s. attorney joyce vance. thank you for being with me, joyce. take me through what stuck out for you. i'm struck by some of what josh was talking about, that the entire manafort defense is blame that guy, my deputy. that doesn't seem like a solid legal strategy to me. >> just from the evidence that we've seen publicly it looks like the government has a very good case here. as you noted, it's a paper case. that means the government will largely rely on paperwork, many pieces of paper that manafort has either touched or signed to prove its case. and they'll jazz it up a little bit. they'll have rick gates and perhaps others to narrate the case which the jury will undoubtedly find a little bit more interesting than just looking at paper. but still, with a case that have strength, you had to wonder why manafort was holding out, why he wasn't pleading guilty. and so i thought we might see a little bit of a twist today when we got a little bit of an
intimation of what his defense would be during opening statements. but instead, we got the my underling did it defense which is really in many ways something of a yawner, something that juries occasionally will show interest in and occasionally even a jury will hang over that, but it doesn't seem like a strong defense here. i was surprised that we didn't see a better opener. >> are you able to answer the question you just put before us, why is manafort holding out? >> there are a couple of reasons, but frankly, we all speculate is there's someone that manafort fears more than he fears mueller. and spending the rest of his life in jail. that's one possibility. does he think that trump will pardon him and make all of this go away? i suppose that's a possibility. and then there's a third possibility which is that some defendants like to see how the evidence comes in at trial and bank on being able to cut a late deal with prosecutors if they
believe the evidence isn't coming in favorably to them. so i wouldn't say it's impossible that we won't see a late plea here, but manafort doesn't look like someone who is headed that direction. >> and i understand that this trial is about bang fraud, tax fraurksd things other than paul manafort's time and tenure as chairman of the trump campaign. clearly, this trial is on the president's mind. this cohen flirting with prosecutors in the southern district, just based on the president's new refrain on collusion, he pivoted today. maybe it's a coincidence it's the same day the manafort trial started. flowinger is he saying there was no collusion. it's collusion isn't a crime. how does it fit into the broader puzzle about russian influence over the trump campaign? >> this case i think is the preample to russian collusion. this is setting the scene for manafort's past dealings and past crimes.
some of it may well leak into his time with trump. but it will clearly set the stage for i think a later section of this story, and we've seen mueller stage other cases that way. first indicting russians who were involved in social media manipulation. then indicting russians who were involved in hacking. and in both of those cases, we see the possibility that there may be a americans who were involved. now we're learning a little bit more about mueller's history with russian-backed dictator in ukraine. and it seems that this too is headed in that same direction. >> and could you take this case, i mean, would it be a building block if you're trying to put together some broader picture or some broader conspiracy case? because the information coming out of michael cohen's camp is putting donald trump as someone who may have had knowledge of that trump tower meeting, paul plfrt just happens to be one of the other people in that trump tower meeting. there are a lot of connections and our colleague jeremy bash
said i think in september of 2017 on this network if you were looking for a russian plant, if you were looking for agent to plant on the trump campaign, paul manafort would be your guy. >> there's really no such thing as coincidence in law enforcement. it's remarkable that we have paul manafort who is millions of dollars in debt to the russian oligarch oleg deripaska, suddenly he shows up despite ta debt and volunteers to work for free on the trump campaign. and then during his tenure, he offers to brief deripaska on what's going on. this is a remarkable string of coincidences and i think jeremy's analysis from pretty far out will be accurate at the end of the day. so we could see this case come together certainly the special counsel team hopes that manafort will become available to them as a witness. i'm sure that they would prefer to have him decide to cooperate with them. but at the end of the day, even
if he doesn't cooperate, once this trial concludes, they will likely be able to compel his testimony and although it's always better to have someone testifying as the result of cooperation as as opposed to a compulsion order, manafort can likely shed a lot of light on many of these issues. >> joyce vance, former u.s. attorney from the northern district of alabama, we're always grateful to have you especially on nights like tonight. president trump and his personal attorney rudy giuliani keep changing their minds what the president will be asked about should he sit down with mueller for an interview. new news about what prosecutors are looking into tonight. that's next. cars, two motorcycles, a boat, and an r.v. i would not want to pay that insurance bill. [ ding ] -oh, i have progressive, so i just bundled everything with my home insurance. saved me a ton of money. -love you, gary! -you don't have to buzz in. it's not a question, gary. on march 1, 1810 -- [ ding ] -frédéric chopin. -collapsing in 226 -- [ ding ] -the colossus of rhodes.
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friendly oligarch. mueller's prosecutors have described manafort's ukrainian business participant as having active ties to russian intelligence services. a memo written by rod rosenstein last summer laid out mueller's authority to the investigate whether paul manafort specifically committed a crime or crimes by colluding with russian government officials. we also know mueller's team has questions for the president on this very subject. mueller wants to ask the president what knowledge did you have of any outreach by your campaign including by paul manafort to russia about potential assistance to the campaign. the president's lawyers said they were willing to let the president answer questions on possible collusion but not on obstruction of justice. but now with michael cohen reportedly alleging the president knew about the trump tower meeting in advance, democrats say the president may be on the hook for both. >> there is credible evidence
that the president of the united states has committed obstruction of justice and possibly a spircy to undermine our election. the president said there was no collusion and even if there was collusion isn't a crime. they are now unwilling to answer questions on that topic either. >> you said maybe you would let him answer a few limited questions on collusion. >> i don't want to give them a false impression. given some of the revelations of the last three our four weeks, we've been driven further away from the idea of answering any questions from them. they don't think they have a legitimate investigationings. >> chuck rosenburg, senior fbi official and jeremy bash, former chief of staff at the cia and the department of defense during the obama administration. thank you both for being here tonight. you have both banned the word collusion from any broadcast on which we all appear together. talk about how the real sort of
pot at the end of the ray bow for an investigation is a conspiracy. chuck, you first. >> yeah, sure. i guess collusion just irks me because it's not. >> you're not easily iraqed. >> i don't tend irk easily. collusion means agreeing with somebody else to do something. that's what a conspiracy is. there's synonyms. the fact that collusion doesn't appear in the criminal code as mr. giuliani asserts is utter nonsense because conspiracy does. what the mueller team is investigating is whether folks in the united states conspired with the russians to interfere in our election. call it what you want. when they finally charge it, it will be charged as conspiracy. the notion that collusion isn't a crime is to mislead people. for the court of public opinion but not for a court of law. >> i just want to follow up with
you. you said when had he finally charge it. are you seeing enough pieces come to light in just what is public facing in this investigation that you believe there will be enough to charge someone with a conspiracy to coordinate or receive assist, from a hostile foreign power? >> it's an educated guess. i hope it's a well educated guess. i hope it's a well changed guess, nicole. yes, i am. there are bits and pieces in the public record that suggest that it wasn't just russians. the timing of the -- hack into the dnc computers, all of that is tied to russian activity that mr. mueller recently charged when he brought a case against the russian intelligence officers. so i think there is enough. i think there are other calculations that are really important here like, for instance, whether mr. mueller believes he has the authority to charge a sitting president.
there's some debate on that point. the department of justice weighed in on it in the past. and has opined that you cannot. so there's some unanswered questions but i think the pieces are there. >> jeremy bash, i have a well attuned ear to everything chuck says and i have never heard him say that before. i want to ask you the same question. do you see enough public facing evidence at this point to make another educated guess for us there is enough evidence now to charge someone with conspiracy to coordinate with a hostile foreign power? >> i don't think we know all the facts yet. i think the mueller investigation has a ways to go to eliminated those facts. if you want to understand the way bob mueller thinks about conspiracy, all you have to do is take your dog eared and underlined copy of the july 13th indictment of 12 russian intelligence officers on 11 counts because in there bob mueller and his team lay out with spes fis sit exactly what conspiracy looks like.
if people want to use the google machine to research it, it's 18usc371. it's conspiracy to defraud the united states. a couple of interesting things about that statute. first of all, it states that if two or more people agree to do something to commit an offense against the united states, and one of those people actually goes ahead and does it, then both people are guilty of conspiracy and shall not be imprisoned more than five years. it's a class e felony. so the important part is that if there were people inside trump tower at the trump tower meeting or inside the trump campaign or even donald trump himself who knew what at russian government officers were doing and if the russian government officers went off and did it, even if they didn't report it back to the trump campaign, the trump campaign knew about it, mere knowledge establishes a conspiracy. and there are other places in the mueller indictment, if you look at paragraph 21d in here
it, talks about how one of the gru officers create a spear phishing e-mail attack. it's clear all the other 11 defendants didn't know or participate in that, yet they were all under the indictment terps conspirators and potentially guilty of the alleged offenses. and so i think you have to understand the way bob mueller and the special counsel's office is approaching the crime of conspiracy in order to analyze whether you think there will be a charge at the end of the day. >> i love when both of you take me to law school. jeremy, i'll go from law school to spy novels. you heard you say to our friend earlier today preet ba harra, there's a 96% chance the reason donald trump has taken a pro putin position is because of long-standing financial ties between the trump organization and people around the russian government. you talked about one-on-one meetings, about donald trump clearing the room which is what we understand him to have done with putin. we looked up one of the other people and you made this
reference too, he cleared the room when he asked jim comey to let the investigation into mike flynn go. how do those two hang together in your mind in terms of what a prosecutor would be looking at right now? >> when does donald trump actually want to have a private conversation? when does he want. >> when he's doing something sketchy. >> when he wants to do something where he doesn't want other people to hear what he's doing. one of the concerns that i have and many national security professionals have about the one-on-one within putin and by the way, we still don't even know if the translators were in there for the entire time or if the american translator was in there for the entire time. one of the problems with that is that there is no record of what was said and i think even to this day the director of national intelligence spoke publicly about this and secretary pompeo was questioned about this. they have not received a full debrief of what was discussed. it harks pa back when donald trump cleared the oval office so he could ask jim comey to drop
charges which is clearly bob mueller is looking at in terms of obstruction of justice. >> chuck, i want your thoughts on that. also, if i give you a two-part question and if you could weigh in on the news tonight that bob mueller has september more cases to the southern district of new york. first on jeremy's point about closed door meetings and donald trump's appetite for them. >> right. so i think jeremy's spot on. the reason you throw everybody out, the reason you want something, quote unquote, off record is you're going to do something underhanded. and it seems like a number of these conversations are underhanded. i want to echo one thing jeremy said. he did a nice job explaining the lauf conspiracy. he did that well. one thing i would it doesn't require that you succeed. right? you and i could agree to robbie an bank, nicole. we could get jeremy to be part of this. he goes out and buys a getaway car and then we get stopped on the way to the bank. we're still guilty.
all three of us of con sire speiering to rob that bank. so when i said earlier i think there is enough public information in the record to see a conspiracy it, i don't necessarily mean that they succeeded. or that everybody knew every part of the conspiracy. again, that's not required. what's required is that folks agreed to do something that the law for bids and that somebody took a step in that direction. it seems to be coming together to me. >> and on the question of robert mueller tonight referring more cases to the southern district, these were more lobbyists doing pro-russian business in the ukraine and other places? >> right. so it's sensible. it's not at the core of his mandate. it's not at the core of the directive to him that he look at russian interference in the election but again, you have a binary choice when you're a prosecutor or an investigator. and you come across criminal behavior. i faced this had myself in my
time as a prosecutor. you either do something with it or you do nothing with it. and it's very hard for a prosecutor to do nothing when they come across kefd of a crime. so it makes perfect sense to me these other folks will get farped out to u.s. attorneys' offices around the country and face the consequence of their actions. >> chuck rosenburg, former u.s. attorney and senior fbi official, jeremy bash, former chief of staff and cia in the department of defense, taking me to law school. i'm grateful to you both. thanks for being here. coming up, president trump's new best friend is reportedly still working on missiles that could reach all the way to the u.s. more on that with one of my best friends steve schmidt after the break. but allstate actually helps you drive safely... with drivewise. it lets you know when you go too fast... ...and brake too hard. with feedback to help you drive safer. giving you the power to actually lower your cost. unfortunately, it can't do anything about that.
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do you believe that them continuing to build icbms would violate the joint declaration from singapore? >> what we're going on is the commitment that chairman kim made to our president. and that is the commitment to denuclearize. that's something that we certainly anticipate that he will hold up his end of the bargain. and his commitment on that. in terms of that specific report, i've seen it. we're all very well aware of that report. that would fall into an intelligence matter which is something i'm not going to be able to get into. >> really? you think he's going to hold up his end of the bargain. >> that was heart nauert punting on a report that are intelligence is showing it north
korea is continuing to produce ballistic missiles and work on their program even after the summit in singapore between trump and kim jong-un. the west says work is under way on at least one intercontinental ballistic missile able to reach the united states. iranian president han hassan rouhani trump announced he would meet with no preconditions, a baffling offer from an american president. an offer that iran waste nod time turning down. joining us is steve schmidt republican strategist from our days at the white house and on the campaign trail. let's put this out there. you and i worked for someone who could see russia from her house so we can ascertain whereby donald trump is operating from ignorance is bliss or whether he seriously as h has a thing for
these dictators. what's your take? >> let me just say former republican to begin, but look. >> nonpracticing is what i like to say. >> right. at the end of the day, donald trump made the world profoundly more dangerous with his reality show diplomacy in singapore. of course, kim jong-un is not honoring the spirit of the agreement and they're working on intercontinental ballistic missile which one day a miniaturized nuclear warhead will sit on top of that could reach the continental united states. she's up there spinning the american people. the intelligence agencies which are forwarding the information are under constant attack by this administration. so roughly for 40% of the country, doesn't matter what the intelligence agency says. what matters is what trump says. now, thankfully, it's a minority of the country but it doesn't change that in actual reality,
the country is more endangered because we had an unprepared ignorant president go over there with the same level of rigor that he would plan an apprentice" episode with meat loaf and lil jon. >> how does the intelligence -- you pull the right thread through all three. the intelligence on north korea didn't ever point to what donald trump declared at the end of that summit that they're no longer a threat. the intelligence community didn't point to or support anything that donald trump said and this is just what we know of what was public at the press conference in helsinki and the intelligence on iran suggests that the deal that the president pulled us out of was better than anything he's likely to get on his own. how does the intelligence community be a client who is so disdain it will for dismissive or willfully ignores the evidence base and the fact-based intelligence on all three dangerous regimes? >> well, they can try to be him and be him they do. but at the end of the day, he's
the president of the united states. he believes what he believes and and there's more than enough news reports to suggest that he doesn't want to hear anything that he doesn't want to hear. of course, the iranian deal had verifiable components to it. he pulled us out of that. he achieved a remarkable feat of putting the united states opposite the european union, russia and iran with iran having the high moral ground with regarded to fidelity to the agreement. the agreement reached in singapore with north korea which he's violating the spirit of was nos verification protocas whatsoever. this is all nonsense. again, it's reality theater but with deadly deadly consequences. it was the strategic aim of the north korean regime, one of the most evil and violent in the world, a slave regime to, elevate its leader to maximum standing on the world stage and they achieved that by standing
next to the president of the united states. this has been the work of decades and kim jong-un knows his nuclear weapons guarantee him insurance from invasion by the united states. so donald trump played all of his cards, pushed all the chips into the middle of the table, and he's left with the pair of twos. what he proved himself to be was inexperienced, naive, ignorant and a fool on the world stage. that was insided by every other adversary of this country. >> i want to ask you if you're surprised not a single politically appointed national security official has resigned over what you just described is obvious to everyone in this country and around the world in the american president. >> i'm shocked by it that there are so few men and women of principle that there aren't more sally yates out there, that there aren't more people who say enough. particularly when we see a president of the united states
going behind closed doors with vladimir putin agreeing to who knows what, saying who knows what, making who knows what guarantees to putin, what promises to putin, what promises to turn another eye of putin acts in the baltics or anywhere else on the globe. he insults the canadian prime minister. he attacks the british prime minister. he insults and attacks the chance lore of germany. he questions and degrades nato. he questions the need for the european union. is he an agent defacto of russia's foreign policy. the foreign policy he's advocating the bipartisan consensus that existed pretrump between republicans and democrats would have recognized his foreign policy as clearly in the middle lane of the kremlin's strategic centers. and to see it being advanced by an american president is as disturbing as it is shocking. >> your we r reward for ticking
off vladimir putin's entire honey do list for donald trump. there's a head scratcher of a theory being floated about the midterms. is it possible that donald trump actually wants the republicans to lose, that he wants democrats to take over the house? steve, i'm looking at you for the answer. that's next. [music playing] (vo) from the beginning, wells fargo has supported community organizations like united way, non-profits like the american red cross, and our nation's veterans. we knew helping our communities was important then. and we know it's even more important today. so we're stepping up to volunteer more
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sis, including reporters being heckled by the crowd and the president claim thawing need to show an i.d. to buy groceries. he obviously doesn't shop. for the record you do not. back with us is steve schmidt, republican strategist and old friend from our days at the white house and on the campaign trail. are you buying this the president actually wants the republicans to lose? i want imagine anyone more obedient than devin nunes at the house intel committee. well, it's going to turn out great for him like when he fired james comey. he wanted that too, right? it's been terrific for him. look, at the end of the day, i would think the last thing that donald trump wants is chairman adam schiff with subpoena power. and that's exactly what he's going to have. i do think the democrats will take the majority in the house of representatives. now, the interesting aspect of it is this. he may look out and see an 18-person democratic field and
pray that a socialist is nominated by the democrats believing that you know, in his view, that if there's two unelectable candidates, one of the two unelectable candidates is going to win. he had a razor thin margin of victory. he won by 78,000 votes across three states, losing the popular vote by 3 million people and his approval numbers at their highest are mired in the low 40s. now, if you look at the special election results and you're a strategist working for the house republicans, you're saying, there's no republican safe in any district that is under plus 25% trump. that means you could be in a 20% trump district and lose in this midterm election. now, when the tsunami hits, and we consider its aftermath, what will be left of the republican party is not a chastened party not something that said we were blown out by trump because the
members who are left are going to be in districts that are plus 25% plus 30% plus 33% trump. it will harden the resolve of the party and its faithful to trump not away from him. as the republican party is wrinking, as people like me are leaving, fervor for leader is intensifying but the strategic problem is that it's getting smaller. the smaller the party becomes, the more intense, the more extreme the more devoted to its leader but it's on a diminishing point of return on the curve. and that's trump's fundamental strategic problem heading into 2020 is that overwhelmingly, the vast majority of americans don't think he's doing a good job, think he's a bad president. think he's compromised by a foreign power, think he's dishonest which he is, of course, think he's corrupt, which he is, of course, and thinks he's lawless, which, of
course he is. >> steve, lets me ask you, so his base wasn't big enough for him to have drafted a victory speech on election night. donald trump didn't think as much of his own base as some people make them out to be, that they're this as you just said, he won by a razor thin margin. how are republicans marching off the cliff after him if his base wasn't big enough to elect him in his own mind? >> because in the instinct for self-preservation that all politicians have has run through the republican party since the rise of the tea party movement, what these members understand in a world where the politicians pick the voter because we know longer live in a country where vote ares pick the politicians there's there's susceptibility to a loss generally speaking is not in the general election. it's in the primary. faithfulness to trump precludes a primary challenger from their
right by a trumpest candidate. that's the epidemic of cowardice we see. there's no one literally willing to lay down a political career to stand up for principles that they cherished and held dear until i guess say 18 months ago and since that time, everything that these republican members as a jen proposition once believed in they no longer believe in or still believe in or just too scared to say it out loud for risk of offending trump. the die is cast on this one for sure. >> that's former republican still a strategist, steve schmidt. thank you for staying up with us facebook is not naming names but somebody on the social network is acting a lot like the russians did during the 2016 campaign. more on that story ahead. (vo) why are subaru outback owners always smiling?
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push specific candidates but did promote activity around devicive social issues." facebook says it has been unable to identify who is behind the accounts and says it found ties to the russian company that special counsel robert mueller led online influence operations in the he 2016 presidential election. facebook has dumped 32 more accounts for engaging in similar behavior just three months before the midterm elections. as nbc news reports, that's only part of the story. nbc news reporting in announcing the investigation into these 32 accounts, facebook did not reveal the depth to which some of those accounts went in terms of stoking racial tension inc e inciting division. "nbc was able to retrieve some of the pages facebook deleted. i review of those found efforts totes target people based on liberal politics as well as hispanic heritage.
facebook did not reveal some of the most devicive content which was deleted." kara swisher, thanks for being with us. you are the facebook truther. what's wrong with facebook? the friends are back. the baby pictures are back. no, the russians are back. >> the russians are back. they never left and they didn't catch them the first time. it's nice they're telling us they're catching russians now. i want to know why they continue to thrive on the platform. the problem is fundamentally the platform. while a plowed facebook for putting it out before the news reporters get it, i do not applaud them for not doing something about it. i this i they're trying all kinds of different techniques. but instead of just telling us about it, i would rather them do it and rid these things off the platform. >> they get kudos i guess for announcing it. >> i played that game of putting news out before reporters get
it. it's usually because pressure is bearing down on you. i guess my question is, what's wrong with the culture? one that this is still happening and two, they have to be backed against the wall before they reveal something that doesn't sound like very many pages. if there are 32, maybe there are 32 more. >> there's more and more. when this happened maybe a year ago, i remember talking to a facebook executive. if there's one cockroach, there's a lot. you have to understand it. this is a choice where the creation has gotten away from them. they don't know the how to monitor it. listen, it's really difficult. they've made a fortune off of this company and in terms of eating up social media and eating up digital advertising revenue. so it really is critically important they figure out how to change their system so this doesn't happen or these tools are not used for nefarious ways even if there's always bad people knocking at any media in history. this is unprecedented. it's problematic i think. >> we've talked before when
they've been staring down the barrel at more regulation and perhaps being regulated like a media organization. is there anything that would change their conduct? is there anything that scares them? >> i don't know. what scares them, i did an interview with mark zuckerberg, how do they keep changing in order to do something like this. they don't want to seem to let go ofern certain tenets around free speech. the issue is free speech is not free of consequence. so the question is, what are they going to pay for what they're doing and how they're thinking about it and how will they deal with it as it moves forward. this is play the form that is very easy to manipulate. they've got to figure out a way to make it not easy or they're going to be regulated. that's their biggest problem. it's not an easy solution but they're we paid and they've made a lot of moin off of this and now have to fix it. >> the human being who's run this company. do any of the human beings have a guilty conscious about being a
tool to carry out vladimir putin's goals and meddling with our delcracy? >> i think so. a lot of people internally are. obviously mark showed a lot of remorse in that interview. at the same time he said he wants it to be an open platform. he got into trouble because he didn't defend holocaust deniers and people who are wrong with a right to be on the platform. it's a complex issue for someone who is not well versed in the humanities. that's the problem. this is a human problem. the people that are deciding these things who have enormous power don't really know how to deal with it. that's where there's going to be a problem no matter what because of that. >> kara swisher, i love seeing you and appreciate your time tonight. that does it for us tonight. i'll look are for you tomorrow at 4:00 p.m. eastern. now it's time for "the last word with lawrence o'donnell." >> will we look for you tomorrow at 9:00 p.m. also? >> i used to be the resident
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