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any federal income tax in 10 out of 15 years beginning in 2000. and that he paid only $750 in federal income taxes in both 2016 and 2017. all that certain to come up in tomorrow night's debate. the first presidential debate between donald trump and joe biden. we're going to preview what else we can expect to see. also tonight, the death toll from covid-19 in the united states now more than 205,000. 21 states reporting an uptick in the number of cases. so let's discuss now. cnn's white house correspondent is john harwood. our political commentator anna navarro is here as well and cnn political analyst carl bernstein joins us. good evening, one and all. good to see you. i said 300 days. you guys were like, no, we can't take 300 days. 36 days. john, you're first. it is becoming clearer after the latest reporting from "the new york times" tonight that this president's biggest business success is selling a bill of goods to the american people. he made $427 million from his v tv, reality tv show, "the apprentice," money that he largely just squandered. john? >> oh, yes. i'm sorry. i thought you were playing some sound right there. >> no, no, no. no, no, no, your turn. >> all right. well, look, i think this story is damaging on multiple levels. there is the embarrassing stuff. that is $730,000 tax deduction for your hairstyle. $700,000 that you gave your daughter that you took as a business deduction, as a consulting expense, even though she was already on your payroll. there's the damage to his brand. he told the american people that he was a successful businessman, he could turn around the united states. you see he wasn't so successful. but we also see the extent to which he, like other rich people, finagled the system in order to reduce his tax bill so he paid a fraction of what those forgotten people that he campaigned on behalf of, those blue-collar americans who were hurt by economic change, paid a fraction of what they paid. the third is the national security risk. that is, the president is hundreds of millions of dollars in debt. debt that he's personally guaranteed. does financial pressure explain why he is solicitous to turkey and to russia? does it explain why he's eager to re-open the country, despite the toll of covid? because his properties need to be opened to stay afloat financially. we know donald trump is pathologically transactional, so in any particular situation, if he were re-elected for a second term, he's going to be thinking, what is in it for me as opposed to abstract concepts like what's best for the country, what's right, what is -- what is the thing -- >> the right thing for the american people. i think he's already thinking that. i mean, i don't think he needs a second term to think about -- >> right, but. >> -- what's right for him and the american people. >> but, don, is this going to strip votes away from him? i doubt that. but that's not the point. we've got five weeks until the election. donald trump needs to take votes from joe biden. we had a new poll out tonight showing he's down nine points in pennsylvania, which could be the tipping point state. every day that goes by without donald trump making progress is a bad day for him and joe biden certainly going to hammer these points in the debate tomorrow night. >> so, ana, i know that you're passionate about this. i'm just going to ask you your reaction to all of it. >> astounding level of fraud. if you take a look at it, if there's anything he's been consistent about is fraud, scam, gaming the system, being a con. listen, his draft deferments were a fraud. his s.a.t. scores were a fraud. his loan applications to the banks are a fraud. his deductions in his tax forms are a fraud. does anybody think he spent $70,000 on hairstyling? only if he's getting charged by the hair. i mean, it's just, you know, his conservative creditos, fraud. his christian creditos, fraud. everything about this guy. trump university, trump charitable foundation, a fraud. i'll tell you what drives me crazy. when i think of all the people who scrape and work hard, all the honest people who pay their taxes, who have a really hard time making ends meet. you know who pays more taxes than donald trump? the undocumented immigrants at his golf courses that he fired when reporters found out he had undocumented immigrants. they pay more taxes than donald trump. abraham lincoln in 1864 paid more taxes than donald trump. 151 years ago. he paid more in hush money to stormy daniels than he pays in taxes. it is disgusting. it is hypocritical. it is unacceptable. and, look, i know it's not going to change the mind of his base. i know that, but i hope that the very small sliver of undecided voters take a look at this and realize we cannot have a guy in the presidency who uses the presidency and the bully pulpit to promote and sell memberships in his club and at his golf courses and to drive the, you know, government business to his properties in order to save his brand. we cannot afford that as a country. he's nothing but a scam. >> carl, i want to bring you in here because the "times" shows that president trump has more than $300 million in loans that will come due over the next 4 years. and we know nothing of who he owes that debt to. so, could he be compromised? >> of course, he can be compromised. let's start at the beginning, though, about what these tax revelations by "the new york times" are. they are a smoking gun that proves definitively that we have a grifter president of the united states and that he and his grifter family have taken advantage of every aspect of the tax code, they have taken advantage of the american people, and that they are, as ana has said, a fraud. they -- we know that donald trump is a con man. this has been evident for a long ti time. and now what "the new york times'" revelations show it's been a house of cards definitively and that this con man has now gotten into the area where we're now seeing serious questions about how he might have compromised or be subject to compromising the national security of the united states. there's also -- we need to take another deep breath to see and put some people on the air and find out, is this tax behavior of donald trump actually criminal or is it deliberate, taking advantage of the tax code so egregiously that once again, he has done an outrageous con on the american people and the irs and might get away with it because it comes under civil penalty, not necessarily criminal. and that remains to be seen. >> even after he's out of office, carl, he's going to know, you know, incredibly secret -- top-secret information about the united states. including sensitive national security information. that is a scary thought. >> that's right. that is a scary thought. and what we need to think back to is the fact that all of his closest national security advisers from mattis to tillerson, to kelly, to bolton, they all concluded that donald trump is the first president in the history of the united states to actually be a danger to the national security of the united states. and what this shows, once again, these revelations, is the potential, particularly given his adoration and subservience to these oligarchs and putin and erdogan and other -- mbs -- all of these authoritarian leaders. donald trump is clear, we can see from what the "times" has done, he will take money from anyone for any purpose. that is -- >> listen, carl -- >> he's a con man. but whether or not -- >> carl, i think -- carl, the ghost of leona helmsley can tell you if it's criminal or not to lie in your taxes. listen, yoirn tewhen you're tel irs that you're poor and have huge losses but telling banks you're seeking loans from that your assets are worth much more than they are, you -- it does not take being a tax attorney to know that there is a real legal problem there and it explains why he has gone to such length, why he has gone to some of the highest points in the land, to try to keep his tax returns hidden. it explains why he will not release these tax returns. i mean, listen, if he wants to prove all of us wrong, all he's got to do is show the receipts. >> yeah. >> i agree with you. >> listen, guys, identi've got move onto the next second. thank you. i want to brick in daniel goldman, former u.s. assistant attorney for the southern district of new york. also the lead counsel for the democrats during the impeachment inquiry. you used to be a frequent guest on cnn, but, you know, he did something else. it's good to see you again. how are you? >> good, don, how are you? good to see you. >> thank you so much for joining us. really appreciate it. you know, when i spoke with catherine renpel she said this reporting means the president is a bad businessman, a cheat or both. the "times" said he used his chronic losses to avoid paying taxes. knowing what we know now, did he cheat on his taxes? >> i think it's hard for us to tell just from reading these -- these articles, from the "times" one yesterday and the one that just came out tonight. i do think it validates the theory that he's a bad businessman. he squandered money from his father. he squandered money from "the apprentice" and all the licensing deals and, frankly, he hasn't really been a real estate developer for quite some time. he has bought golf courses and he's poured a tremendous amount of money into those golf courses that continue to lose money in their operating costs. and then he just licenses his name to real estate developments all over the world. he doesn't actually run them in any meaningful way. and the big question that -- even his tax returns are insufficient to show whether or not he is lying. you would need the backup documents, you need the bank records to show ins and outs. you need to compare to other financial statements, sworn declarations, and we have some of his disclosures. i would just caution one thing, though, don, before everyone jumps to conclusions. the value of an asset does -- is unrelated to what the expenses are to operate that asset. and those expenses for business assets can be deducted, even if the value of that asset keeps going up. so if he's pouring money into trump doral, which he is, he is spending a lot of money, some of which may be able to be deducted, and in theory the value of the property is going up. so, that in and of itself does not necessarily mean that he's cheating. what we do know is that this is a hyperaggressive way of manipulating the tax code and there are some -- some yellow flags at a minimum in there, paying ivanka trump consulting fees when she is a full-time employee of the trump organization. you can't double dip that way. so that's one thing. but it will be very interesting for the manhattan d.a. to compare these tax records with other documents that they will get from mazars once that court case is resolved now that it's back in the court of appeals. it will soon be resolved. and the d.a.'s office will be able to compare the tax returns to his other financial statements, sworn financial statements, and they'll be able to figure out what is legitimate and what is not. >> okay. so, listen, i spoke to a very good friend who is a developer, i'll just tell you what he said. he said the leverage thing, how highly leveraged it was, you know, that's to be determined. right? once they figure out how much the depression ciation is and s and so forth. then he says, but the stuff like paying his daughter as a consultant, writing off expenses that are not legitimate business expenses on the upstate house, they are -- that they use personally, that stuff is fraudulent, if that, indeed, occurred. and then as michael cohen says about how he inflates his assets, so, the question is, does he provide false information to get the loans? that was a question that my friend says, if he provides false information to get the loans by inflating the value of an asset, is that illegal? is that fraudulent? >> absolutely, yes, that's a material misrepresentation to a bank to obtain a loan, and that is, you know, that's carbon copy bank fraud. that's what it is. and, so, you know, but i think we do need to be a little careful. what -- >> i am. i'm saying if, if, if, if that's the case. not saying -- >> if michael cohen describes is that he's inflating his assets to get loans and, yet, what he's reporting the value of those assets to be a lot lower, which he did with the westchester property, that's inconsistent. and so he's either lying to the banks or he's lying to the irs. both of which are crimes. so, either way, he's committing a crime, if that is true. >> if that is true. >> and so that -- that is -- that's the big question. you know, some of this stuff is fungib fungible. it's hard to figure out exactly what the value is of something. having done some of these prosecutions, these fraud prosecuti prosecutions, sometimes it's very hard to prove that it's -- it's overvalued, et cetera. what's not hard to prove, though, is when the person that you are looking at assigns two very different values to the same thing because both of them cannot be true. >> got it. okay. so, i want to talk about the president's debt, daniel. a lot of it will be due over the next few years. what happens if donald trump is president and he can't pay these debts? is this the same -- is it the same as being a private citizen? do we know what will happen? have we ever been in this situation? >> we've not been in this situation, and certainly it's incredibly dangerous to have the leader of our country be under such financial constraints. and i'll explain one way why that is. we know that there are foreign sources of income at his hotels, at his golf courses, the trump hotel in washington, d.c. , is hotbed for foreigners to stay. saudi arabia bought blocks and blocks of rooms around the inauguration in january 2017. if donald trump is relying on this foreign -- these foreign sources of income at his own properties in order to fund his debt, in order to be able to go to the banks and say, i am generating this much income so we can refinance this, that's an incredible national security risk where he is compromised, and what that basically means is that he needs these foreign countries for his personal benefit and, therefore, that is a direct conflict of interest as he enacts or executes or foreign policy around the world. that would be disqualifying for a security clearance for anyone in this country to get a security clearance, but he's the president of the united states. he doesn't need a security clearance, but it is incredibly worrisome, nonetheless. >> daniel, i could go on for the entire hour with you, but unfortunately, we're out of time. >> me, too. >> it's good to see you. you're doing well. right? and your family and everybody's safe? >> i am, i'm doing very well. everybody's good. >> good. >> been wild, but we're good. hopefully we can get this under control. >> good. please come back and be well. thanks again. >> thanks, don. the first presidential debate is just a matter of hours away now and we've got new reporting on how joe biden is preparing. plus, the president announcing a plan today to distribute millions of rapid covid-19 tests. that's coming up. ♪ whoa! ♪ i feel good ♪ i knew that i would, now ♪ i feel good ♪ get a dozen double crunch shrimp for one dollar with any steak entrée. only at applebee's. does scrubbing grease feel like a wscrub less with dawn ultra. it's superior grease-cleaning formula gets to work faster, making easy work of tough messes. dawn takes care of tough grease, wherever it shows up. scrub less, save more...with dawn. over time, you go noseblind to the odors in your home. 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>> well, you want to be prepared. you want to anticipate everything that's coming at you and with donald trump, that's a pretty tough equation because he doesn't play by the rules. so that's one of the things they're prepping him for, don, is to make sure he understands that donald trump -- joe biden has a tendency to want to be a good student and you can see it when he stops his questions early. you got to anticipate that donald trump will be coming after him hard and also coming after him in places that he knows he's vulnerable like his family. so, for example, they got to get joe biden to be very careful he doesn't come off the leash, doesn't lose his temper, and i'm sure he'll be well prepped for that. the stakes are big for donald trump because he's the guy that's actually in the hole. all joe -- by the way, he's lowered the expectations for joe biden. this is all an expectations game in presidential debates, and by talking about how biden, you know, is senile, sleepy joe, all joe biden has to do is get on the stage and complete sentences for two hours and that could be a win for joe biden. >> well, listen, i'm not just an anchor. i'm also a reporter. remember, that's how i started. so i have some reporting tonight. a source familiar with biden's debate preparation says this to me, mark, he says, "he is prepared for asymmetric warfare. they've done scenario s pra s p on different things trump might do. they believe it's unlikely biden will be surprised by anything but he is also determined not to get thrown off his own message because he and the campaign believe that americans mostly care about the fact that they can't send their kids to regular school and their health care is threatened. people will either be satisfied or dissatisfied, but he's not going to respond to every crazy thing trump says. he can certainly throw a punch, but the source doesn't think the american people want to see him sink as low as trump. they're tired of donald trump's antics. they also say that biden is going to pick and choose when to stay focused on his message versus reacting to trump on every point attack, and he will do that, he will decide that in the moment. what do you think? >> very smart. he's got a very, very good team around him and that's the kind of counsel that i think he ought to be getting. >> you think that's smart, the way -- just what i said here, he should not get down in the dirt -- >> no, no. no. that would be playing donald trump's game. he wants to play joe biden's game. he wants to be cool, calm, collected. he wants to -- has to show that he is the consoler in chief. that he is the competent one. that it's not about chaos. look, people are asking for competency and they're asking for character back in the white house. so all he's got to do, don, is just maintain his composure, show that he's credible, and that he can carry on a debate for a couple of hours and that's going to be it. >> he can be tough and a decent person, i think will probably go a long way in the debate. listen, as i said, he's going to choose, stay focused on message versus to responding to everything that trump, you know, every crazy thing trump says. we've seen how relentless donald trump can be in attacking people. is it important for biden to stay on that message or do you think people need to see at some point him defend himself? i mean, think about how his republican primary opponents handled him in 2016. >> sure. they don't want him to roll over by any means, don, but they don't want him -- i mean, donald trump's strategy is to distract biden, to get him to chase a bunch of crazy attacks, and that will be playing donald trump's game. he just has to act like a president, don. he just wants to show that he wants to return decency and character to the office of the white house. he's been there before. he knows how do this. he can keep the country safe and secure. people want a break from the chaos. f he can get through two hours and not lose his composure. he loses if he has a meltdown. that's what he has to concentrate on, being cooled and composed because he just has to get through it without losing it, don. >> so, on those taxes, mark, this is how hillary clinton dealt with the issue in 2016. >> maybe he doesn't want the american people, all you watching tonight, to know he's paid nothing in federal taxes because the only years anybody has ever seen were a couple y r years when he had to turn them over to state authorities when he was trying to get a casino license and they showed he didn't pay any federal income tax. so -- >> that makes me smart. >> -- if he's paid zero, that means zero for troops, zero for vets, zero for schools or health. >> wow. that makes me -- "that makes me smart." back then. i don't know if it's going to matter after this "new york times" reporting, that seems so out of touch. is that a model for biden? >> don, there's a historical parallel here i thought a lot about. i was in texas and worked for ann richards in her governors race in 1990. she ran against a billionaire named clayton williams. >> i thought you were going to say george bush was born with a silver foot in his mouth. >> no, no, this is a very applicable example. he had a ton of money. he was running well ahead of richards. in the spring of tht yeat year, there was big flak over a comment he made, sit back, relax, enjoyinevitab inevitable. just like the "access hollywood" tapes didn't have impact, people said, it's good old boys, boys being boys. he hit him to turn over his taxes. just like trump he refused. richards was a great candidate. just what we're learning about donald trump, during a rough year in the oil pads, clayton paid zero taxes. he dropped like a rock overnight. people said, wait a minute, that's just a fairness issue. aisle a schoolteacher, a firefighter, i pay taxes and you paid nothing, i don't buy it. i don't like it. >> so you think it will have an effect, you're saying. this is donald trump. >> it could have an effect, don. the question is will donald trump supporters hear that? and but they, you know, this is going to be an historic debate audience tomorrow night. it's being sponsored by fox. i think a lot of fox supporters will watch it. i think chris wallace is a very good reporter and will ask tough questions on this issue. we'll see. >> mr. mckinnon, good to see you. >> thank you, don. >> thank you. donald trump and joe biden face off in the first presidential debate. watch it all play out live on cnn. special coverage tomorrow starting at 7:00 p.m. eastern. and you have to stay up late to watch me and chris. so, she has been sick for over a month, okay. doctors diagnosed her with coronavirus. so why is she repeatedly testing negative? so julia ioffe started reporting on this next story while she had covid. we're going to talk about that next. and ahead, guess who the president wanted to be his v.p., guess. i'm not even going to say. we'll be right back. is not the same. it's our sharpest ever, and while some other companies would charge more for something new, we don't. because why be like everyone else? 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>> getting better, excuse me, kas you can hear. it's a slog. >> it's been a while since we spoke. very confusing thing about your story, okay, that everyone should know. if you tested negative for coronavirus not once, not twice, not even three but four times, can you explain that to me and the audience? what happened? >> well, i got tested during various points of my illness and the first three tests were when i was actively sick and they were just nasal swabs. so they didn't do the thing where, you know, they go all the way back and it feels like they're tickling your brain. it just kind of went inside my nostrils a little bit. and those tests are far less sensitive than the ones that go all the way back. that's one thing. second thing is, we know the virus enters through the nose and the mouth, but then it drops down to the lungs pretty fast. so you might not have any virus in your nose, but you might have a ton of it in your lungs. so, in my reporting i talked to a lot of doctors who said that they had many patients who tested negative on the nose and the nasal swab. when they were intubated, their lungs were teeming with coronavir coronavirus. if you're mildly ill like i was at first, no one's going to test your lung fluid. you have to be hospitalized and intubated for that. the fourth test i got when i was probably no longer infectious so that explains that one. it's been a psychological roller coaster. >> that's why it's called novel, there's a lot to know about it, a lot we don't know. i'm asking because i'm sure people at home are wondering, if you had that many tests and they were all negative, how were your doctors so sure? because you said that you had covid because you said it was probably in your lungs and they didn't test that because you weren't sick enough. how are they so sure? >> so i talked to numerous doctors about this, both in my reporting and, you know, the doctors who treated me, including my primary care physician, including the doctors who saw me in the emergency room where i had to go because could not breathe and my oxygen levels started dropping and this was the second time that it happened. including the pulmonologist who saw me for, you know, the reactive airway disease i have after the virus and for my now partially collapsed lungs. basically, doctors say the tests are not perfect. you know, the cdc put out a faulty testing kit back in february and march of this year. and we had nothing to test with. so the fda said, look, everybody, develop your own tests, we're going to give you, like, a temporary authorization no . now there's 165 of these tests. some are very good. some are not. even the very good tests are not 100%. so doctor -- whether the symptoms in front of them, you know, i had all the classic symptoms including a loss of taste, a loss of smell. by the end, i couldn't breathe. my oxygen levels were tanking. you know, and doctors said that i don't know what else it could be other than covid. >> well, that's -- i wanted to -- because you were going on with that, i just wanted to get this in because i think it will help you make the point here. while you were still sick, you began reporting on the accuracy of tests and here are some of the things that you found. you said the tests have a wide range of accuracy. you said pcr tests have become more accurate, there's a liar chance of false negative than false positive. accuracy can depend on how good a sample the swab gets and even the patient's physiology. there is no perfect test, you say. so what is the big impact of all that in terms of the spread of this virus that you found in your reporting and what you're going through. >> well, there were a number or papers put out on this in the "new england journal of medicine," the mayo clinic also put a paper out on this. they ran the math, even if a test is 98% accurate, which is pretty good for a test, there's no 100% test, that's still, you know, if you test 100 people with covid -- who definitely have covid and you miss two of them, right, like, if you're doing it in massive scale, millions and millions of tests, that can be thousands of infections that you miss, and each one of those can snare many more people and create whole new chains of transmission. so, we have to understand the tests aren't perfect. we want black-and-white, clear answers as a society. we do not have them and we probably never will, so i guess my message is, if you're still having symptoms of covid and you're not feeling well but your test comes back negative, you should quarantine instead of, you know, cherrypicking the information, you should quarantine and try not to be around other people so you don't unintentionally spread the disease. >> julia, thank you so much. and i hope that you -- i'mbette you get back to 100%. we appreciate you coming on. >> thank you so much, don, thank you. the president won't commit to a peaceful transfer of power if he loses. now democrats are preparing for a post-election battle. plus, trump reportedly floated someone other than mike pence for his vice president back in 2016. we'll tell you. does scrubbing grease feel like a workout? 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>> reporter: a disputed electoral college result could put the fate of the election in the hands of the new house of representatives elected in november. with each state delegation getting one vote. republicans currently have a 26-22 advantage. speaker nancy pelosi is ready for this possibility. >> i've been working on this for a while. i've been working on almost every scheme he might have to steal the election. >> reporter: sending a letter to his caucus urging them to focus on winning a majority of state delegations in november and flipping the senate. writing, "we must achieve that majority of delegations or keep the republicans from doing so." trump has also floated the idea of an election that's decided in the supreme court, like bush v. gore in 2000. >> i think this will end up in the supreme court, and think it's very important that we have nine justices. >> reporter: one of the florida judges at the center of that recount who sided with bush to stop the count and has since retired making his fears of trump clear in a rare letter to colleagues saying trump is a threat to democracy and giving only one real solution. >> there will not be a problem if the democrat s win the senat and biden wins the presidency. the problem will result if there is continued to be a divide between the house and the senate. >> reporter: trump falsely claiming that voter fraud is rampant, tweeting this morning, "the ballots being returned to states cannot be accurately counted. many things are already going very wrong." but the president has been building the case against absentee ballots or mail-in voting for months. none of which is based on facts. widespread voter fraud is largely nonexistent in the united states. >> you can forget about november 3rd because you're going to be counting those things forever, and it's very dangerous for our country. >> reporter: but there are real risks for the election. the fbi issuing its latest election warning, this time about fake cyber attacks. they caution the public to be wary of internet claims of hacked voter data and compromised election infrastructure. things that manipulate public opinion and discredit the electoral process. today, courts in new york and pennsylvania ordered the post office to stop policy changes that would slow down the mail, echoing last week's settlement with the post office, forcing it to prioritize election mail. and we're also learning tonight that there has been a new cyber attack also known as a tyler technologies provides software to some u.s. election officials. and this is all raising new concerns, that state and local government i.t. systems may not be as secure as they need to be, ahead of this election. don. >> all right. abby, thank you so much. i appreciate it. back in 2016, the trump campaign was tossing around ideas for who his running mate might be. and take this. the president suggested -- after the break. last night's sleep, interrupted by pain? 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"the post" report says trump repeatedly brought up the idea of a trump-trump ticket. it was ivanka trump who took herself off the vp short list, telling her father that it wasn't a good idea. what do you think? thanks for watching. our coverage continues. new vicks immunity zzzs gummies are fortified with zinc and elderberry to sustain a healthy immune system plus melatonin for restorative sleep because being run down, is not an option. recharge your nights to take on your days with new vicks immunity zzzs. you try to stay ahead of the but scrubbing still takes time. now there's powerwash dish spray it's the faster way to clean as you go just spray, wipe and rinse it cleans grease five times faster dawn powerwash. spray, wipe, rinse. fixodent ultra dual power provides you with an unbeatable hold and strong seal against food infiltrations. fixodent. and forget it.
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