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possible case so that the president is held accountable one way or another in the court of public opinion or in the law or congress of the united states. >> you don't bring an impeachment unless you have all of the facts. okay. so what actual facts have we got about trump trampling the constitution and even committing crimes like obstruction of justice? anything? do we have anything? oh, yeah. right. we have this. the mueller report. the mueller report. right here. right here. there it is. this is the report that everyone was waiting for that was supposed to, you know, deliver the coup de gras to the trump presidency and restore democracy. we have this. and speaking of robert mueller, he came out this week and told y'all in no uncertain terms that he has done all the work he's going to do. he is going home. and also read the damn report and figure it out. >> if we had had confidence that the president clearly did not commit a crime, we would have said so. it would have been unfair to potentially accuse somebody of a crime when there can be no court resolution of the actual charge. now, i hope and expect this to be the only time that i will speak to you in this manner. >> so over to you, congress. yes? or maybe no. now here comes the tough love portion of the "a.m. joy" show. robert mueller will go down in history is not going to save you from donald trump. mueller is gone. even if he ultimately testifies before congress, there is no cavalry that's waiting to descend from beyond the wall to take down the night king. there are no elves to come take down the orcs and doom. and as for congress, the democratic leadership has made it clear that really no matter how far donald trump pushes and stretches the limits of the constitution, no matter how many times he tells his administration to basically flush their subpoenas down the nearest white house lou or even with republicans providing bipartisan cover, congress is not going to take down donald trump. at least not using the remedy the constitution anticipated for an out of control president. impeachment. speaker nancy pelosi has suggested prayer to deal with donald trump. she suggested for melania trump and the family to stage an intervention. and she and other members of house litsch have made it clear that they fundamentally believe it should be your job, the voters in 2020 to sanction this president by denying him a second term. the democratic leadership openly viewed impeachment as a waste of time unless there's guaranteed removal by the senate. something that has never happened in american history. that's where we are. democrats despite the clamor from their base to at least begin an impeachment inquiry are plowing ahead with their strategy which is to issue strongly worded letters which once defied will be followed by subpoenas which once rejected will result in eventual court cases and once appealed will eventually result in something that changes public opinion about donald trump. then if that public opinion becomes a ground swell for impeachment, then it will happen maybe. so no one is coming to save you. but the reality is that donald trump also has a say in all of this. and if he continues crashing through the constitution like a bull in a china shop, defying congress, and now even defying the courts, well, what are democrats going to do? joining me now is house majority whip james clyburn. thank you so much for joining me this morning. >> thank you very much for having me. >> thank you. so i'm looking here at a letter from congressman adam schiff who is of course the chairman of the house intelligence committee writing to dan coates about this order from william barr to comply with this investigation of the investigators. so donald trump's attorney general, donald trump's white house, they're plowing forward with investigating members of the fbi. they've now defied a court order to turn over the correspondences. they're defying both you guys and the courts. impeachment is not the answer to that and i think it's clear you guys don't think impeachment is the answer. what is the answer? >> well, impeachment may be the answer. i don't think that those of us in leadership are saying that impeachment is not the answer. i think from the report, from all that i've seen and heard for the last several years, i do believe that impeachment may be the answer. those are the grounds. now, the question then becomes what is the proper time for us to start this process. and i think that's all speaker pelosi is saying at this point. we must take care that we do not get out in front of this process. let's continue to do what we're doing. let's continue to do the investigations. let's have the hearings. let's build a public support. let's do what is necessary to bring the public along. and then we may have reached the time to launch the impeachment inquiries. i don't think we're there yet. >> well, clearly the public agrees with you at least according to the opinion polls. off plurality of voters that -- this poll i will say i think is impeachment and removal. which you don't need to combine those really. and 43% favor no action. so it's kind of close. but do you -- are you concerned, sir, that just having lots and lots of hearings that drone on and on and on, they kind of become almost -- that there's not a coherent narrative that the public can follow that essentially the public will tune out all these many different hearings, tune it all out. and then essentially donald trump will win by default and just get away with it all. >> well, that is a fear that i have. but i also have a bit of experience over the years. i do real that we had an impeachment against president clinton. it was a very partisan process. political though it may be. and look what happened. came to richard nixon years ago. we never had to get to impeachment. because he stone walled, he fired people, he did things on the same order that trump is doing. but it finally caught up with him. when alexander butterfield reviewed -- or revealed that those tapes were there and the court ordered him to produce those tapes, we reached the time for impeachment. and that's in a bipartisan way that congress went to him and says, either leave or be impeached. and he left. we could very well through these hearings come up with that smoking gun that will do for us today what those tapes did with richard nixon before. so let's go through the process and hope that we can get there. >> respectfully, sir, let's take each of those two cases. because i think the analogies between donald trump and richard nixon are close in a lot of ways. but in that instance, you had a republican party that was not nearly as sort of vehemently reflexively partisan as the republican party of now. there aren't a lot of republicans now that would behave the way that republicans did then. protecting trump is what they're doing. and the second thing is, with clinton, what actually happened is that, you know, republicans lost a few seats in the house. but they held the house. they held the senate. they then made bill clinton useless to al gore. they rendered him inert. they then won the white house as well. republicans did not pay a price for impeaching bill clinton. and bill clinton was popular. donald trump is not popular. so is this analogy missing the point? because bill clinton and donald trump are very different. their popularity is different going in. the reason that they would be impeached is very different. and the outcome for republicans was actually pretty darn good about impeaching bill clinton. good for them. >> well, they did not pay -- they did not pay as big a price. you're right. as i would have loved to see them pay. but we did make some historical gains. >> but you didn't get the house back. you got neither the house nor the senate back. democrats did not get back a body and bill clinton was no longer running for president. he was not able to campaign for al gore. what price did republicans pay? >> well, i think they paid a price in the presidential elections. i do believe -- >> but they won. >> i'm sorry? >> but they won. i mean, they beat al gore. >> yes, they did. because the courts awarded it to them. we all remember what happened down in florida. we see what happened in the last election. hillary clinton won the popular vote. but i do believe that trump was correct when he said things were rigged through the electoral college. things got rigged. and we were subjected to the russian influence. we were subjected to all kinds of suppressions. the kinds of things that we ought to be prepared for today. the same thing is going to happen for today if we don't get prepared. that's what i was going to make a point. because, right. william barr has essentially opened the door for it to be perfectly legal for donald trump to seek help again. so you have to presume donald trump is going to do the same things again. so he's going to go in with the advantages of foreign interference and an attorney general that's going to help him, all the things he had in 2016. but he also is going to happen not been sanctioned for the things we know he did. you know, for the ten instances of obstruction of justice that have already happened. and for defying you guys. he's saying i don't care if you subpoena me. if he goes in already feeling invincible, i'm not sure how not impeaching him alters his behavior. he's getting away with everything he's doing. >> he's gotten away thus far. that doesn't mean he will be getting away in the fall of the year or the first part of next year. i do believe that we are on track to getting to where we need to be to bring the public along with us and to even change some of the minds in the senate. i don't know that we have to get to 2/3 of the senate in order for the ground swell to be there that would cause mitch mcconnell and others to sit down with this president and tell him the jig is up. >> do you really think mitch mcconnell would ever do that? do you really think mitch mckonld would do that? impeachment has never resulted in removal. impeachment is a separate sanction. it's the highest sanction that you all in the house can put on a president. it is literally the ultimate rebuke. that's all it's ever been. it's separate from removal spp there any chance at all any single republican is going to vote to convict? can't it be its own sanction? >> i don't know that you have to get to the point of voting to convict. we got to that point with richard nixon. and we never had to go to impeachment or a trial. i think mitch mcconnell, if the folks in kentucky were to rise up and says hey, guy. you have got to fulfill your responsibilities. i don't think he would lay himself on the alter of donald trump. i know mitch mcconnell a little better than that. i'm not a big fan of mitch. but i know that mitch would never lay himself on the altar of donald trump. >> okay. well, we shall see. we will continue to watch and we really appreciate your time. congressman, james clyburn, thank you very much. really appreciate it. >> thank you. >> thank you, sir. coming up, we're going to expand this conversation with our all-star panel. that's next. with our all-star panel that's next. -we bought a house in a neighborhood with a lot of other young couples. then we noticed something...strange. oh, could you, uh, make me a burger? 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[ sigh ] introducing an easier way to move with xfinity. it's just another way we're working to make your life simple, easy, awesome. go to xfinity.com/moving to get started. we're on a path to getting information. the public deserves to know the truth. >> yes. >> the facts. and so when you go down a path like impeachment, which is very divisive. it could divide the country. because it is divisive, we have to try to bring people together. >> speaker pelosi appeared on jimmy kimmel last night and wouldn't do impeachment even though hearing mueller say here's the ball, take it, i'm going home. joining me now is david jolly former republican congressman who's no longer affiliated, and jean pierre. i'm going to start with you, elliot, at the table. >> what was that? >> i want you to respond to it. i hate the phrase take them at their word. but i'm going to use it anyway. i take the leadership at their word they do not want to do impeachment. i think that's genuine. i don't think they're making that up. and their argument for it seems to be based on the experiences that they personally had during the bill clinton impeachment and they they recall from nixon. that is what the congressman argued. he believes if they keep getting more information somehow republicans will act as they did during the nixon and not the way during the clinton impeachment. >> right. there are a couple of things that clyburn said that deserve immediate pushback. one is this democratic fascination with a smoking gun. the mueller report is the smoking gun. we have the smoking gun. it is on fire. all right? so this search for the smoking gun is ridiculous. we have it. let's go. number two, and this is the key thing and you saw it when he brought up nixon. he said, well, when the court ordered nixon to give up the tapes, that's when nixon realized the jig is up. donald trump will not give up the tapes. even if they found this mythical gun that they think is still hiding there. if trump has it, he won't give it up. he's already proven that. he is right now in violation of a court order ordering him to release tapes! so i don't understand why -- if they're not going to impeach any president -- you know, if they're not going to impeach him now, when are they going to do it? february? during the democratic national convention? if not now, then when? >> and if not him, then who? >> right. all of the other arguments. oh, we have to bring the american people along. he hasn't tried to bring -- of course the polls aren't on our side. they've spent six weeks since the release of the mueller report -- the democratic leadership has spent six weeks since the release of the mueller report trying to tell me why we can't impeach him opposed to trying to tell the american people why we must. of course the polls aren't on our side. >> you know, david jolly, let me -- because you were in the republican -- you were a republican. there's a sense i have that republicans can sense democratic fear. listen. i'm a life-long democrat. i'm not trying to diss democrats. but republicans understand that democrats operate from a position of being very nervous about rupturing the public mood. and that they really believe the process has to be stable and the american people need to be brought along. and they are a bit afraid of rocking the boat. and republicans take advantage of that because when they flagrantly defy democrats and they flagrantly sort of smack them around, they know they're not going to get hit back. so they just keep hitting them. so are what we're seeing -- donald trump is a guy who responds to that kind of strength. he loves dix at a tictators. is the reason democrats are seeming to lose this battle because they won't show force back to somebody who's using force and maximum resistance against them? >> oh, slure. because house democrats and republicans who have taken two weeks since the mueller report came out and are having short weeks. nancy pelosi does not want to impeach. that's absolutely clear. james clyburn whether he thinks so or not is willing to go along with nancy pelosi out of loyalty. what i think the disconduct a lot of people are feeling not just democrats but those who performed as democrats in 2018 asking for greater oversight. even if you were to buy into "the post" pelosi strategy that james clyburn articulated, that we need to draw this out. we're not seeing the urgency in that, joy. if nancy pelosi made the case to the country, we needs months of hearings. because of that we're calling the congress back to washington and we're going to do this five days a week on national tv so the american people can see it. now you're more -- in a more believable position that nancy pelosi means business. instead what it is conveying to a lot of people who are questioning her strategy. those who question it say, i'm not sure i believe the speaker is really taking this in the direction. i think she's getting dragged in the direction. and that's an uncertain time for voters to be looking at the speaker. >> yeah. you know, in the moving public opinion. the real thing is the two people who have made the articulate of why impeachment should happen are a former republican named elizabeth warren and a current republican named justin amash. let me play -- i don't think i'm pronouncing it wrong. amash. on wednesday. >> you heard what happened to me from our so-called leader kevin mccarthy. i read the mueller report. i'm sure he did not read it. i stated what it actually says and he just resorted toed a m e hominem attacks. this is the kind of leadership, in quotes, we now have in congress. that is the biggest abuse of power right now happening in our government that needs to be addressed. if you wonder why the president, the executive has so much power. whether it was barack obama or donald trump or any other executive, why they have so much power. it's because congress is incompetent. they don't do their job. >> so this notion of congress being impotent, that the president can just run over them, is it because justin amash is a libertarian he is able to articulate that? why are democrats having a hard time explaining to the public why what donald trump is doing to abuse power is important? >> i have to say with justin amash, it's clearly in his realm, right? what he's saying. being the libertarian, where he stands, he's known for being principled. he came through the tea party kind of era. and we have to remember that is a solidly red district. and he got a standing ovation from his own constituency. so that says a lot on how he's messaging and how they feel about him. look. this is not watergate. we are -- this is so much worse than what we're seeing in watergate. so the comparison they make is wrong. we are living in abnormal times. we see a saturday night massacre practically every week. and yes, donald trump, he sees the weakness in congress. he sees that they're not going to impeach him. he sees that nancy pelosi is basically saying she's not going there. and because of the fear of the fear of the past. but the present is so much more dangerous. and they are the first of state. they have the power. the framers gave them the power to do -- to make sure, to hold the presidentabilitiable. this is what the base, the democratic base wanted them to do to be oversight like david said in 2018. and they are letting that all go. you know, it's not about polls. it's not about politics. it's about just making sure this president is held accountable. they are going to set a terrible precedent. they don't do this with donald trump, then what happens with the next president? that's probably going to be worse or just as bad. it's a very scary thing to see. we have to keep pushing them saying this is not okay. you know what? this is the scary thing. at some point it's going to be too late. at some point it's going to be too late to move with this. and so we're going to be put in a terrible predicament. >> let me very quickly -- because we're going to have david fromm on the show later. he argues don't impeach and if by focusing on all of these issues by doing all thaez different many hearings, democrats are able to really keep donald trump trying to put his finger in everywhere. and he can't do it. that's one good reason to do it the way they're doing it now. that they're letting their candidates campaign. and that they can always push impeachment if he wins re-election. >> that's a great strategy. oh, let's let him win again and then try to impeach him. when we talk about the polls, i think it's important for people to understand that the black community, the black and brown community is overwhelmingly in favor of impeachment. the democratic base is overwhelmingly in favor of impeachment. the people who aren't are kind of white people in the middle. right? it's three truck drivers that jacob soboroff interviewed at a dine perp those are the people not sure about impeachment. if nancy pelosi and the democrats have to at some point acknowledge their base. >> but i think they're more worried about the trump base and what they can do with them. david, is there any chance at all that mitch mcconnell would not ride right to the very end with donald trump? >> no. >> congressman clyburn seemed to believe some other little point could be made and would change mcconnell's mind. do you believe that? >> i think clyburn's point was if the voters of kentucky become overwhelmingly in favor of impeachment, maybe mcconnell reconsiders. but no. he's a silent killer. i'm glad you brought up the '98 politics with clyburn. i was on the hill at the time. we remember the anxiety. there was a lot of chaos. but republicans did just fine in the next election. fast forward to the 2018 politics, a lot of people did vote for policy. there's not a single democratic voter -- a lot of people voting for this oversight moment. and the reality is if nancy pelosi says we're about policy, there's no way to deliver policy next gleer a divided government. there is a way to deliver oversight and impeachment. >> well, david jolly, thank you very much. appreciate pit. coming up, we'll talk about how democrats are responding to the news out of virginia. that's next. e responding to the news out of virginia that's next. ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ applebee's new loaded fajitas. now that's eatin' good in the neighborhood. fill up for the chance to win free fuel for a year. that's one of thousands of prizes in the shell great gas giveaway! fuel rewards members are automatically entered when they fill up at shell. my copd medicine... ...that's why i've got the power of 1 2 3 medicines with trelegy. the only fda-approved 3-in-1 copd treatment . ♪trelegy. ♪the power of 1-2-3. ♪trelegy 1-2-3 trelegy. with trelegy and the power of 1 2 3, i'm breathing better. trelegy works 3 ways to... ...open airways,... ...keep them open... ...and reduce inflammation... ...for 24 hours of better breathing. trelegy won't replace a rescue inhaler for sudden breathing problems. trelegy is not for asthma. tell your doctor if you have a heart condition or high blood pressure before taking it. do not take trelegy more than prescribed. trelegy may increase your risk of thrush, pneumonia, and osteoporosis. call your doctor if worsened breathing, chest pain, mouth or tongue swelling ...problems urinating, vision changes, or eye pain occur. think your copd medicine is doing enough? 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joining me now, kimberly atkins, maria kumar, and jean pierre. the audience might have suggested questions for you. check your twitter. let's start with you, kimberly. we were having a conversation after the block with elie. i think we all agree it could be cleaner for the democratic to take it off the table. so then they can talk about what they are going to do. what do you make of that? is it clear that the relationship is going to come out and say, listen. we're not going impeachment? >> i think it's still unclear. i think at this point, nancy pelosi is in a position that she is a head of a caucus that is still not completely unified on this issue. and when she first said impeachment was off the table, the vast majority of the democrats within her caucus were not there yet. they were not pushing for impeachment. it was only a small percentage that was there. and she was trying to provide cover for everyone. well, now there is an increasing number it seems every week. more and more members of the house are saying they either want impeachment or they're leaning towards it. now she's in the position of not only protecting the people whose constituents want impeachment, but also protecting the members whose constituents don't. i think that's this dance that you're seeing. i think if there is a continued ground swell the way we've seen it among the candidates for president, that's been a quick shift from when they mostly weren't calling for impeachment and now they mostly are. if we see the same thing happening in the house, we may see movement in the other direction. it will be more and more difficult for her to say let's start the inquiry. >> it's not as if midwesterners are all hard core against, you know, considering some sanction if the president committed wrong doing. but it definitely sort of occurs to me a bit that it may take a presidential candidate who then calls the tune. once you have a nominee, that person is going to then lead more than the congress will what the direction of the party is going to be. if you look at the people who are already saying, yes, impeachment. it's kamala harris. it's elizabeth warren. te it's beto. and moulton went against nancy pelosi. and cory booker, julian castro, hickenlooper, wayne messam in florida. what kimberly said, it's worrying to get all the members re-elected. so that maybe it really is going to be up to the presidential nominee to push this. >> i think it has to be a full press across congress to do actually the work that the constitution dmantds demands of them while also doing it with a presidential candidate. so they differentiate themselves. it can't just be impeachment. they have to be able to put points on the board and demonstrate this is how we would legitimate differently. sends a resounding message to this democratic base saying you know what? if you are white, if you are privileged, if you are the president all of a sudden you can get away wit. if you're a kid that crosses the line and speeds too fast, you find yourself in jail. it sends a resounding message that there are two sets of laws for two different people and that's not okay. individuals have to feel inspired. and if anything taught us, it's the fact that a republican congressman received a standing ovation for speaking the truth. and the truth is what you niets the american people. it's the idea there's this equal fairness. that there's going to be actual consequences if you do something unjustly. and the massachusetts clepresid something that is opaque and has to be brought to justice. let's not forget. the republicans knew effectively how to bring down a presidential candidate when they had president -- secretary clinton go into benghazi hearings year after year. that's all they talked about because it also basically provided a dent into her character. when the president went after her on the election, there was a lot of questions about her character. so they have to use every single arrow in their quiver. >> they call z though pre-impeachment hearings. there were members saying, we're pre-impeaching. they made it very clear. they would impeach right now. on that point, the two americas, the two sets of rules for black and brown young people. i just saw an amazing series. that there are two sets of rules. that, you know -- donny deutsch said that's your message, democrats. there are two sets of rules. mitch mcconnell and republicans play by one. all y'all play by another. here's elizabeth warren on the view. >> if he were anyone other than the president of the united states, he would be in handcuffs and indicted. it's a point of ou constitution. it's a point of each one of us who swore an oath to the constitution saying, that is not permissible for a president of the united states. >> movon.org was created as simple messaging of people trying to move on from impeaching president clinton. why can't democrats say it as plain and simple as that. there are two sets of rules. donald trump is playing by one because he's a rich white guy. nobody else could get away with this. they can't formulate that sentence. >> and they're letting him get away with it. they're not holding him accountable. you know, we've heard from more than a thousand prosecutors. if he was not president as what elizabeth warren was saying, he would be indicted. this is where we are today. and robert mueller made it really clear to many of us that congress needs to act. like, he can't do any more. here it is. here's the smoking gun. please go and act. it's clear for 2020 concludes what they need to do. they need to have a clear message that says, okay. donald trump who is the president of the united states is using his power to basically -- not just enrich himself but to obstruct justice to protect himself and his family. that is what he is doing. that's part of the message. and what he is doing right now makes watergate look like -- it's just shameful what he's doing. there is no comparison there. then in the same breath say, okay. this is how we're going to move this country forward. here are ideas. here's how we're going to pull ourselves out of this hole that republicans have put us in. that donald trump has put us in with these hateful policies that they continue to put out. that hurts marginalized community in particular. the base of the democratic party. and that's it. it's not that hard. wha what are you going to do to move the country forward and hold donald trump accountable? that's the message needed in 2020. >> i wonder, kimberly, if you're seeing candidates realize this is something they can run on. so seth moulton made a mistake trying to challenge nancy pelosi to be a speaker after a woman had been denied the presidency. that seems optically bad. but now he's running on saying no, not only am i for impeachment. i'm the only guy in the house that can vote on impeachment. it's at the point now where joe biden who has been mild mannered saying we might have to do impeachment. are 2020 candidates starting to formula formulate impeachment as a message? >> yes, i think you're increasingly seeing that. i mean, look. i think that it's right. that's not all that democrats need to focus on if they want to win. they need to talk about the kitchen table issues as well. but you are seeing a lot of candidates do both. elizabeth warren is a great example of that. she has a plan for everything. this week she came out with a plan for reversing doj policy that says a sitting president can't be indicted. she's in a lane at this time in contrast for someone trying to be this reconciliatory figure to try to bring the country together and not focus so much on trump. i think that is a difference. you will see among a lot of the candidates pushing forward. but i think that elizabeth warren and some of these other candidates do have that cover to talk about this. to push this. but remember along the way that even if the house brings impeachment articles against the president, they're probably not going to -- he's not going to get convicted in the senate. so in that sense, it is in a way sort of a theoretical exercise. and i think that, if anything, gives these candidates more cover. it's something they can push for. they don't have to necessarily stand up and say i did or did not vote for it the way seth moulton would if they do bring it forward. but yeah. i think they are trying to feel what they're hearing when they're out campaigning and they hear people call for this and they're trying to respond to it. >> the town halls these mellencamp members are going to have will be interesting. thank you. comening up, one of our favorite conservative guests thinks they're handling donald trump perfectly. that is next. handling donald trump perfectly. that is next like.. pnc easy lock, so you can easily lock your credit card when its maximum limit differs from its vertical limit. and clover flex, for when you need to take credit cards when no one carries cash. or requesting a call to help get a new credit card- one that hasn't followed the family goldfish. pnc - make today the day. you get the freedom of what a 7-day return policy. this isn't some dealership test drive around the block. it's better. this is seven days to put your carvana car to the test and see if it fits your life. load it up with a week's worth of groceries. take the kiddos out for ice cream. check that it has enough wiggle room in your garage. you get the time to make sure you love it. and on the 6th day, we'll reach out and make sure everything's amazing. if so... excellent. if not, swap it out for another or return it for a refund. it's that simple. because at carvana, your car happiness is what makes us happy. if you have a garden you know, weeds are lowdown little scoundrels. don't stoop to their level. draw the line with the roundup sure shot wand. it extends with a protective shield and targets weeds more precisely. it lets you kill what's bad right down to the root while guarding the good. roundup sure shot wand. got bugs too? roundup for lawns bug destroyer kills and prevents them, even grubs. roundup brand. trusted for over 40 years. well, he knows it is not a good idea to be impeached, but the silver lining for him believes then he would be exonerated by the united states senate. there is b a school of thought that says if the senate acquits you, why bring a charges against him in the private sector when he is no longer president. so when we build our case, it has to be ironclad. >> you heard speaker pelosi's stance. and you can really feel the growing frustration between growing in the base about the action to counter trump and what he isco doing to the presidency. not everyone agrees that pelosi's take is wrong. there was a proposal that the wisestop remedy is not impeachment. david frum. he is joining me now. make your case, why is pelosi right? >> he is is right, first there is no question that trump is corrupt, authoritariauthoritari second the result of an impeachment process will be acquittaled by the senate. so when you talk about impeachment you have to say what is the result of an impeachment in the house, the trial in the senate, and i argue that the consequences will be very series. it is on exoneration not to be removed but he will treat it as such. he will mobilize his supporters. and one last thing that i think people need to take seriously. it's not impossible that he gets reelected in 2020, incumbent presidents usually do. and if it is begun unsuccessfully now, what about thewh more favorable circumstans in the very real possible event of a trump second term. >> if impeachment is not used, then is not impeachment a dead letter. it that never removed a president but it is a sanction that puts a stamp on a president of corruption. if it is not used on trump, shouldn't it just be written out of the constitution? >> it is true it didn't go through to removal, but he was for forced from office, and andrew johnson largely reversed his construction policies, and he was replaced by grant. i would call both of those processes successful. property access against bill clinton was not successful fd. donald trump will have 40% of the american people with him throughout the process. it is not a dead letter, it is a ready t weapon, use it wisely because you can only use it once. >> let me use your examples to make theur counter point, in th case of andrew johnson, the stamp of impeachment prevented him from anothernt term. for bill clinton it kept him from being useful to bill clinton. hese picked the most proimpeachment anticlinton democrat that he could find. so weren't donald trump will rendered -- bill clinton was possible when they impeached him, he is the most unpopular president in history. >> inin 2020, i don't think so. i think the politics of the two cases are different. and by the way al gore would have been wise to ask bill clinton ton campaign for him b he couldbu not make up his mind >> >> that, i think there are deeper psychic reasons why he didn't do that, and i don't mean that in any way disrespectfully, he wanted to be lis own political force if this process begins, first it will sec energy from all of the other informations that are more morning. i think it is a false choice to say it is impeachment or nothing. the subpoenasen are moving impressively quickly. before the election congress will have the records. it may not be completed before the election, but there will be an inquiry into the mueller information, ith think a total 20 investigations. >> won't americans just tune those out? how are they not collected that could pull those things into one coherent narrative. callre it a criminal trial. call it the criminal investigation of donald trump. >> that is a powerful point, many of the things to be worried about with trump are not criminal. the connections between trump and urussia were not criminal. what changes people's minds are facts. the information about things donald trump has done. once you have an impeopachment,t is not facts any more. >> well, it is an interesting debate. i want to have you back for this debate again. read his article and his book. thank you very much, before we go to bleak question said that donald trump had not yet commented on the mass shooting. minutes after that he tweeted his condolences. s after that he his condolences. a heart valve problem. so if there's a better treatment than warfarin... i want that too. eliquis. eliquis is proven to reduce stroke risk better than warfarin. plus has significantly less major bleeding than warfarin. eliquis is fda-approved and has both. what's next? 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>> it's like he thinks this building behind me is just a post office. his whole mind-set is that the american experiment, this entire process of three separate but equal branchs of government should not exist and that it should all exist in a narrative. and that anyone that takes any time to look into any malfeasance, donald trump, he is the problem. this man is not the attorney general of the united states. i'm going to put it on the table, it is very obvious, this is his political congressmen sar. he is there as the party chiefton who is there so enforcize logical loyalty and he will not hold truck for any investigations. >> he did sound like the hand of the king. the way he talks about presidential power and his history that he only has this view of the presidency when the president is a republican. he had it that view when it was george herbert walker bush. i wanted to hear the reporter ask him what do you believe are the limits of presidential power. >> if you look at his 19 page memo that he submitted last summer he has a very extreme view of executive power. he thinking the president is all powerful and cannot commit obstruction of justice if he is doing something in the execution of his powers. i think that is an absurd reading, if you're a textualist then faithly means something. that means executing the laws in the best interest of the country and not your own interest. the other thing that he said they thought was pretty remarkable because he was trying to talk about trump's campaign being like a civil rights movement and the fbi investigators that noticed that russian actors are trying to ill filtrate that campaign, that is how he is describing them. here he is talking about his concern of domestic intelligence. >> first of all, the president that he serves, the king whose hand he calls the press the enemy of the people. what he seems to be saying there is a very political argument. in his view the fbi agents that investigated the campaign had a political objection to trump as a person. that is the conspiracy theory that trump believes in, what does it mean to those who are now on the job that their boss believes that any attempts to look into trump's contacts are behaving as a guard that is i illegitimate. >> why is he doing interviews, he answers questions, he didn't raise them. his job is to rent evidence. when he wants to write a memo, he has the right to do that. he doesn't need to be doing questions. the american citizens experiences is that it was hacked. he doesn't bring up any of this and it had been going on for months, so maybe they had a very good reason why do all of these efforts keep targeting the campaign. why is all of this happening. he doesn't put any con dex on it. look, the attorney general was critical of james comey, remember he came out. we need to stick with the institutional norms. we don't need a deep state, but he is throwing biens in there by raiding the question. >> this is a bite too. and again there is not a lot of push back on what he is saying which freaked me out, but here he is having the spying conversation. take a listen. >> you testified you believe spying occurred into the trump campaign. >> yeah, i guess it has become a dirty word somehow. i think there is nothing wrong with spying, the question is whether or not it is authorized by law. >> if you are a current agent and you discover the saudis are trying to attempt help elect trump. >> if you're a foreign state right now smartest play if you want to create chaos in the u.s. is to just make contact with everyone that you can because you're testing if the fbi can look into it at all. when would they be allowed to look into whether or not a foreign country is trying to infiltrate another campaign. i don't understand the circumstances. the individuals they started to look into, from my perspective when i look at it, it is obvious to me why they would want to look at it. i don't understand why they would not, if they don't look at it under those circumstances where would they. if you're a counter intelligence agent, what will happen? i will be investigated if i bring up any of these questions. i might as well get my own attorney to start investigating me. >> the thing is that crystallizes the horror for the american people is that he seems to be doing that for his own politics. he is claiming that all of these sniegss have become criticized. but he desires the advancement of the trump presidency. soft the political outcome that empowers him, he can declassify things. he is enjoying this power. >> yeah, he is sitting in his hunting lodge projecting a campaign on the american people. i puns that most people don't have the training to understand exactly how and how this man is lying. the part of the interview that i found most troubling is when he rolled over the issue of clearly they could not indict the president because that is unconstitutional but he could have said he should be indicted. that is a lie. we don't want prosecutors saying oh, i would charge that person, but i'm not going to. that means the victim doesn't get their day in court to defend themselves. if mueller did what barr said mueller could have done in realtime, that would have caused a fit. it is not constitutional to charge a sitting president. there is nothing in the constitution that says that. it can't be unconstitutional because if it was you would have to change the constitution from president to king, all right? >> and barbara mcquaid, i have had friends who are attorneys, i'm not, but colin marcus, what he is advancing is a view of an american monarchy, that the president is essentially a king, when he is a republican. >> i think his remarks at his original press briefing in his letter and to the senate are in many ways inconsistent with each other. when it appears he is not being fully honest it creates a vacuum and people will look to see what is his motivation here, what is he trying to do. it does seem like it feeds into that narrative that he will protect this president at any cost. the idea that robert mueller decided not to make a traditional decision, where did that come from? he really stepped into that void and decided it for himself and i think when robert mueller came out the other day he made it clear that he saw his job as preserving evidence so that future prosecutors when this president is no longer in office could consider whether or not to charge and because there is a mechanism for holding president's accountable, that is congress by impeachment, he was preserving this evidence for them and william barr said that is nonsense. he really appointed himself to be the super visor over the special council. it will takes over the who process. >> are fwhe a positiwe in a pos 2016 will get repeated but now the attorney general says it's fine. >> yeah, i think 2016 will be a low point and i think what we will see is they have no gate ways to them now. they can do whatever they want, not only with the president of the united states supporting it, but the attorney general of the united states will neutralize law enforcement to investigating anything. really, i'm telling you, we should call this ga communist wy to run things. this is authoritarianism at it's fine finest. >> it doesn't seem like there is anything preventing another 2016. >> the agencies took pretty good action. we're seeing them do things to advance the cause, but there is no unity in the effort. >> are they going to get in trouble -- >> it makes me concerned. attorney general barr is doing a review in the investigation. i'm for that, look if they did the right thing, it will come out. they did the right thing, if not they should be cleared of that, but during the discussion, imagine if mueller and rosenstein said i have a lot of questions, it looks bad, and left, that is not serving the public in any way. >> let's all be hopeful that if his review comes out favorably that he will tell us that. he gets to tell us what he finds, and we don't know what he will say, and i think that scares a lot of people. coming up, could george's full scale attack on human rights cannot them their hollywood moment? 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[ sigh ] introducing an easier way to move with xfinity. it's just another way we're working to make your life simple, easy, awesome. go to xfinity.com/moving to get started. it becomes law. it will be very difficult. i rather doubt we will. i think many people who work for us will not want to work there. and we will have to heed their wishes in that regard. right now we're watching it very carefully. >> disney is one of a fast growing list of entertainment companies threatening to pull film and television projects out of georgia if their highly restrictive abortion law goes into effect. film and television production yielded a $9.5 billion haul in the state for 2018 alone. joining me now is teresa tomlinson who is running for the united states senate, and judd, i saw this in your newsletter, how many companies are thinking about pulling out? >> i think there is no companies that i know that said they're pulling out now, but i think what netflix and bob igor said is if they don't strike this down they will probably pull out. it is fairly serious to say. i think you have seen individual actors and producers saying they will no long er work in georgia. he sort of puts down the hollywood types that are out of touch. just what the law does, exceptions in the case of health, rape, and incest. here is what stacey abrams have said. >> in this instance we have leaders that do not care. they legitimately have rejected the idea that it matters if we lose the dollars here. we know they can make money in other ways. they don't want the to accept the responsibility of the women in the state of georgia. i support those that want to bring their values by not bringing their resources here but i don't want to harm the citizens of georgia. we're calling on folks town vest on the work on the ground. >> so he is is saying he doesn't care. what do you make of the argument that it doesn't matter if hollywood goes away. >> first all all, and he did try to poke them in the eye by saying they were c list actors. this is a man ahead of a state that invested over $4 billion in this industry through tax credits alone through ten years and provided 92,000 jobs for georg georgians. he was to politically engage in a war for hollywood, so we need to remember this is a waste of our taxpayer dollars. this is political malpractice. one of the owners of "the hawk" said this just yesterday. nobody would run a state like this et and put the livelihoods of georgians at risk. but we need to remember we enjoy a free market here in georgia and across the country. that means businesses can be repulsed by and offended by the basic human rights. so when that happens, the businesses have choice. the choice to leave. women may not have choice in georgia, but the businesses have choice to leave and this is what is happening. we know that the republicanings here. we see now they're declaring a warm on women and the film industry that we have invested in for ten years now. so they're antiwomen and antibusiness. >> on the republican side, they seem to think this is a great winning issue that they can then start a culture war over georgia. stacy aprograms, a lots of people believe. they are in a potential business any boycot t. >> i tell you from the other side it will follow and it will escalate to the disadvantage and destruction. >> out of georgia, you hear about people not wanting to send their children. college admissions are down, because people don't want to send their kids there, one said my daughter is never going to school there. so you're going to have an economic hit to georgia, and they say good, we'll have a war. >> i think most likely in this case that unless the supreme court steps in and allows these heart beat bills that ban aborti abortion. and when they are pregnant, that you won't have the studios do this. so right now it is posturing. i'm not sure that they should be so sure. roe v. wade that extends out to 22 weeks or further, it is still very popular. the majority of the americans, this is quite extreme. it is effectively a ban. be safe out there. there is no exceptions for rape or incest. they are energized, and that's why they're saying this. how much of that conversation has become about the supreme court? who controls the senate and who controls who gets on the supreme court. you heard mitch mcconnell made it clear. he figures he will stack them with more cavanaghs. >> at this point it is almost entirely about this. it is more than the concept of the supreme court. georgia and other states, pregnant womens are vessels of the state requiring them to carry pregnancies to term after, and it means their incompetent to declare their own medical decisions and that is repugnant to so many people. but let me tell you what is going on here. this is exactly, not kind of, exactly the same thing that happened in 2014. they would be put on various state ballots so it would gin up their base to come out and get a george w. bush reelected. they're doing the same thing here now for 2020. they want to gin up their base. they're using women as pawns in this game and that is exactly what is going on. they're trying to get trump reelected. they know they have no record to run on for tariff wars, horrible budget situations, and that is what is going on for the republican strategy. people that do such a cynical thing don't deserve to be in office. >> at least you know is happening, you're right in 2004, they just buried the cross and they could drag george w. bush over the line. i had to correct myself. >> we're being played and we can't be played. >> thank you very much, i'll have you both on again, coming up, trump's anti-immigration zelotry is about to hit you in the quality. zelotry is about to hit you in the quality. every day, visionaries are creating the future. so, every day, we put our latest technology and unrivaled network to work. the united states postal service makes more e-commerce deliveries to homes than anyone else in the country. police in virginia beach have yet to reveal a motive behind a mass shooting at a government building. laqui laquita c brown who worked in public works for 4.5 years. tara welch gallagher who works in public works for over six years, and serves as an engineer. is a resident of virginia beach. ma mary louise gayle who worked in public works for 24 years. a resident of virginia beach. alexander gusev who worked for over nine years in public works and is a right-of-way agent and is a resident of virginia beach. katherine a. nixon, who serves in public utilities for over 10 years as an engineer and as a resident of virginia beach. richard h.nettleton. rich worked in public utilities for over 28 years, served as an engineer, served with me as a lieutenant in germany in the 130th brigade, a resident of norfolk. chris for kelly rapp who served in public works for just 11 months as an engineer and is a citizen of powhaton. ryan keith cox, who served in public utilities for over 12 1/2 years and is an account electric and a resident of beach. joshua a. hardy who served in public utilities for 4 1/2 years as an engineering technician and a resident of virginia beach. michelle "missy" langer who served in public utilities for 12 years and was a resident of virginia beach. robert "bobby" williams who served in public utilities for over 41 years as a special projects coordinator and is a resident of chesapeake. herbert "better" snelling who was a contractor trying to fill a permit, and is a resident of virginia beach. hmm. exactly. liberty mutual customizes your car insurance, so you only pay for what you need. nice. but, uh... what's up with your... partner? 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[ laughing ] well... it's exactly like that! exactly! . >> why raise american consumers prices on all of that stuff coming from mexico. >> this is one of the most misunderstood aspects of trump tariffs, china won the burden of those tariffs in the form of tax revenues and a lower rate of growth. mexico -- >> no, the government of china and mexico will pay for it, and the producers in producer and china pay for this. people that say that somehow american consumer wills pay for this, it is simply not true. sorry, that was just shot true. i was talking to the person in my ear, that was completely not true. a trump trade avidvisor does no understand trade. the united states is going to put tariffs on mexico unless they stop immigrants from coming into the states. the treasury secretary and the u.s. trade, i'm not an economist, but even i know that tariffs are a after itices, they are pretending that the country of motion kexico will pay the t what do you think, which is it. >> this is an example of what my children said, happy go magic land where you just make things up. certainly if the chinese government has a reduction in what they're selling to us, that has an impact. but, you know, he is completely and totally misleading the american public. you and i and everyone else will pay. >> can you give us a very quick fundamental, if trump levies tariffs on mexico what will happen. >> it discourages you from buying a foreign made product or food item and buys a domestic one and it means that domestic producers can increase to the level of the importer price plus the tariff pb and it is an important element in economic development for countries that are developing, like we were, say in the 1800s. it is a tax on you. we have supply chains, we make parts in the united states for cars. we send them to mexico to assemble them, and then we bring them back to the united states. and to disrupt these supply chains is to disrupt american workers jobs. >> and you know in the states that are important there is a piece that nbc news put out about what states will be impacted by this. the border in arizona -- that 35% of texas's imports are imports. punishing them economically unishes states that states that trump would like to to be reelected in i am somewhat familiar with what they're doing. donald trump is basically rolling the dice. it has little to do with immigrants, it has little to do with going toe to two general power. basically making us incredibly powerful to recessions. we could not lower our taxes any more. but the problem is what happens not only do americans bear the brunt of all of this but when youf have costco ceo's says we provide some of the lowest prices in the world and we're not able to do that under these scenarios you're sending a message to our international trade parter eerer in ee eer --. you know what china said, we can't buy soy beans, you know who will? the brazilians. we removed the tariffs from the chinese do you think they say we'll go back and buy soy beans from you? that is a hostile trading environment. he is trying to play the short game, trying to decrease interest rates and decrease the tax space which he has done. we're not going to hoodwinked, we're going to be steady and make sure you're protecting the farmers, our auto industries, and we have to fight back. >> the thing about trump is that he has an obsession with china and mexico being foreign bad actors, bad people that his base wants him to fight, so you have this policy emerging not just from economics. so to appease voters that care about immigration, that's what they care about, that's what they vote on, is it in his fair to under mine the farm economy just to appease those people and himself, i guess? >> the only things that matter to trump is donald trump. he wants to hoodwink all of the people that want to live in a mythical 1950s right america where black people didn't have hardly any civil rights and asian people were hardly seen. that is clearly racism mixed with 18th century mercantilist economics. he thinks there is only x amount of dollars in the world and every dollar he doesn't have is a dollar that someone has. we know how to create wealth, we're good at it but if you're donald trump you don't understand that, all of these policies are indeed a bet. he could lose the popular vote by 1200 votes and he could still win a second term. >> you have to know everything, could you just give us very quickly a sense of what will this mean, the impact, economically for a farmer or someone that works in the auto try, what will it do to them. the. >> starmers are getting a bailout, the auto industry is not, and it has struggled through the last 50 years. he has to come up with a different type of policy. how do you make them go back to work in a different sector? one of the major reasons that we're seeing such migration from central america is climate change. if he had any curiosity for reviving our economy, he should talk about how do we invest in renewable energy. >> he thinks that climate change is like a fairy tale, it's not real. >> i just came back from greenland, if the arctic thaws russians will have nave gaigati rights to oil and minerals. coming up, altering the senses for racism. that's next. e senses for racism. that's next. is that for me? mhm aaaah! nooooo... quick, the quicker picker upper! bounty picks up messes quicker and is 2x more absorbent than the leading ordinary brand. [son loudly clears throat] [mom and dad laugh] bounty, the quicker picker upper. now with new prints featuring characters from disney/pixar's toy story 4 in theaters june 21. has been excellent. they really appreciate the military family and it really shows. with all that usaa offers why go with anybody else? we know their rates are good, we know that they're always going to take care of us. it was an instant savings and i should have changed a long time ago. it was funny because when we would call another insurance company, hey would say "oh we can't beat usaa" we're the webber family. we're the tenney's we're the hayles, and we're usaa members for life. ♪ get your usaa auto insurance quote today. we are also examining secretary ross' decision to add a new citizenship question after experts -- listen up -- at the census bureau warned, and i quote, that it harms the quality of the census count. let that sink in. that's what they actually sold secretary ross. >> the trump administration's decision to add a 2020 census question is under more scrutiny after files found on the hard drive of a late republican strategist revealed adding a citizenship was designed specifically to get republicans and white voters an electoral advantage. joining me now, aschad robinson, president of color of change. this is not surprising but surprising this person wrote it down. >> yes, surprising it was written down and it came out. but like most of this sort of conspiracy theories we see out of the right, we can't be surprised. we can't be surprised when we see mass shootings and we see what they're doing at the nra. we can't be surprised at the women's right to choose. but the question is do we allow them to get away with it or use the mobilization that one does when someone tries to come in your house and steal something? because that is exactly what's happening. this attempt is to steal from us. it's attempted to steal food out of poor kids' mouth. stealing representation from communities who need it. it's about stealing medicare and medicaid access to people who need it the most in communities. this atext tempt as to be met w outrage that this demands. >> and the data 6.5 million people will not respond if a citizenship question is added to the census. as you said, that would include endorsement of congressional redistricting and reduce the actual resources, monetary resources. there's also a ucla study that said 10% of the population would likely not respond. >> yes, this would really hurt. we have problems with undercounts. back in 2010 when there were all kinds of attempts by the obama administration to get numerators into colors of communities counting votes, there was a counter for 2 million children. what that means is head access start for school lunches and out of that were a disproportionate number of color. what we understand is in the best of times, best of circumstances, there were undercounts in communities hard to reach, rural communities, urban communities. now we have an administration doing everything possible to make it hard. not to mention just the fact some may feel concerned about filling out the census form. >> a government worker? >> exactly. september 30th for people who are watching is the key date that we have to mobilize to. so september 30th is the day when the congress makes a decision about appropriations and we need $8 billion or more appropriated to fully fund the census so we could have the type of outreach in communities that will make the census have the type of counting and scale necessary. >> a couple of things. we know thakt visit was essentially making the conspiracy theory argument that democrats inflate the numbers of people of color because of unlawful migration, undocumented immigrants get counted, which they think is round, citizenship thinks everyone should be counted that's physically here. their argument is that only citizens should be counted so they're trying to make an argument that democrats are inflating the numbers of people of color and there is a fear that is changing the demographics. that's what ask behind us. >> everybody does need to be counted. if femme are here, those numbers need to be counted for all sorts of things, whether people are documented or undocumented, like the constitution says. those numbers, if people are not documented, they don't go into apportionment or counting of congressional districts but how we think of what type of resources, what's the planning for roads, schools, and other things people need if people are physically here, we need to understand that. so they're still counting people through that citizenship question. if people check off they're not citizens, they're still counted. >> yes. do you have confidence in the supreme court? because john roberts is not great on voting rights. >> no, we're not confident at all. this is why we need to make sure confidence does stand up and respond. people went out to the polls to elect a new house. >> mitch mcconnell shut that down. >> i know it, he can can shut it down on his end but the democrats in the house need to use all of their power to hold accountable what's happening. >> you have heard this, democrats, rashad robinson with the call can to arms. i want to bring you back to "when they see us," incredible documentary that i saw last night. we will talk about that, rashad. . because sometimes inner peace requires a little external soundproofing. or pnc total auto. a place online to easily find and finance the right car for you. and your passengers. or pnc home insight, to search for a new house within your budget. hopefully with a grass yard. pnc - make today the day. 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[ sigh ] introducing an easier way to move with xfinity. it's just another way we're working to make your life simple, easy, awesome. go to xfinity.com/moving to get started. that's our show for today. up next, alex witt. this is pride month and other cool things. >> i can't believe it's june! where has time gone? >> too fast. >> have a good day. see you tomorrow. and hi, it's noon in the east, 9:00 a.m. out west. welcome everyone to alex witt. faces and names, we're learning more about the 12 people killed in a mass shooting at virginia beach. the pain they are leaving behind. plus, terror threat, new revelation about a warning the president ignored before presenting his plan. and the president's new
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