so what they have done in new mexico is try to figure out if they can repeat what they have done in missouri, what they call the missouri miracle which is lower recidivism get more kids out of the system and have more programs. >> how do you do that? >> you change the philosophy. for more solitary confinement, the corrections officers actually operate more like coaches and mentors. they're still corrections officer, they still break up fights. but the idea is that they actually -- >> does it require new corrections officers? >> requires a lot of training. i think the training could be more intense, they get about six weeks which i think is on the thin side. but i think it's more of a buy-in. a big challenge has been the corrections officers who believe a different philosophy. >> have they seen a receipt dramatic change? >> i think it's really early in the process. they certainly have seen it in missouri. and they're not doing exactly in new mexico what they have done in missouri. but i think that they're really looking at how you can give
underfunded anyway. through the extent they have to spend more money on him because of his celebrity status he may not be a favorite of the corrections officers have to deal extra with him because of that and you are right. these type of strip searches and everything else they are going to do to him because of any interaction he has is going to be more of a hassle for the system and these people are not particularly sympathetic to somebody who is causing them more time effort and work. so it's both sides, from the guards and possibly from the other prisoners. tom, what about the issue he has now, an appeal and another trial for double homicide. he has all this coming ahead of him. i guess take the appeal for starters. does he have a chance whipping his appeal? >> he certainly has a chance. he had some very good defense attorneys who have an excellent record when it comes to success on appeal. i have to assume they raised every appropriate objection they come the problem is the jim. the judge is nope to be very fair to the defense. she excluded a lot of evidence
about some of these issues, made it a big issue. it's appropriately something that has to be considered. i think jeb bush said it well. he said, look, we have a couple of principles in this country that are fundamental. one is people have the right to worship god according to the dictates of their own conscious. at the same time, we oppose discrimination. of any kind. legislatures have to harmonize with those principles and it will be a process that will have bumps and starts and legislatures will have to make corrections from time to time. i know that there will be people who try to take political advantage of that circumstance but it's an important series of topics and we have to work at it and hopefully give people the benefit of the doubt as they try to wrestle with ways to try to protect both of those fundamental principles. >> i guess what i'm asking, and you saw it in 2012 on the issue of immigration, isn't there a danger that an appeal to the base to try to win the primaries, you're forced to say things or take positions that
>> keep moving on to the track. >> if that doesn't work, they have an arsenal of nonlethal weapons, including ones that fire wood blocks. though not deadly, woodblock rounds can leave a lasting impression as we discovered at the kern valley state prison in california. >> he shot the [ bleep ]. >> no. but i don't even remember getting shot. i don't even know if i got shot. >> we often talk to the corrections officers about the nonlethal weapons they use, but it is not often that we end up actually seeing what those weapons do, and such was the case with george johns. this was something that happened just the night before. we were lucky to talk to him. >> escort! >> during our shoot at kern valley, inmate george johns, serving eight years for being involved in a high-speed chase while on parole, started a fight in the cafeteria and was hit in the head by a wooden block. we met him the following morning.
unusual for corrections because if you, if you are not paying attention you don't know who you are talking to. it's one of the reasons why we house them separately. >> look. >> you look wonderful. wonderful. >> yeah. >> that's my only brother. we are really close. we are really tight. we eat together. we live together. we work together. >> our visit to the anamosa state penitentiary in iowa led us to another memorable pair of siblings, michael and brad love, whose lifelong allegiance drove them to kill. >> growing up i wanted to be him, you know. he was almost four years older than me. i see him running around drinking. breaking into stuff. doing whatever he is doing. i'm like i want to be like him. that's my big brother. that's my idol. so i kind of followed in the same footsteps. >> but as the love brothers revealed to our crew, those
about some of these issues, made it a big issue. it's appropriately something that has to be considered. i think jeb bush said it well. he said, look, we have a couple of principles in this country that are fundamental. one is people have the right to worship god according to the dictates of their own conscious. at the same time, we oppose discrimination. of any kind. legislatures have to harmonize with those principles and it will be a process that will have bumps and starts and legislatures will have to make corrections from time to time. i know that there will be people who try to take political advantage of that circumstance but it's an important series of topics and we have to work at it and hopefully give people the benefit of the doubt as they try to wrestle with ways to try to protect both of those fundamental principles. >> i guess what i'm asking, and you saw it in 2012 on the issue of immigration, isn't there a danger that an appeal to the base to try to win the primaries, you're forced to say things or take positions that
unusual for corrections because if you, if you are not paying attention you don't know who you are talking to. it's one of the reasons why we house them separately. >> look. >> you look wonderful. wonderful. >> yeah. >> that's my only brother. we are really close. we are really tight. we eat together. we live together. we work together. >> our visit to the anamosa state penitentiary in iowa led us to a memorable pair of siblings michael and brad love whose lifelong allegiance drove them to kill. >> growing up i wanted to be him, you know. he was almost four years older than me. i see him running around drinking. breaking into stuff. doing whatever he is doing. i'm like i want to be like him. that's my big brother. that's my idol. so i kind of followed in the same footsteps. >> but as the love brothers
that were concerned about some of the issues made it a big through and it is presently something that has to be considered. jeb bush said look, we have a couple of principles that are fundamental in this kept one is people have the right to worship god according to the dictates of their conscience and we oppose discrimination of any kind. the legislatures have to deal with those realities and harmonize them and it will be a process will have some bumps and started and legislatures are going to have to make corrections from time to time and i know there will be people would try and take political advantage of that circumstance but it is an important series of topics we value to work out and hopefully give people the benefit of the doubt as they try and wrestle with ways do protect both those fundamental principles. >> pa i am asking and you saw it in 2012 open issue of immigration, isn't there a danger that an appeal to the base to try to win the primaries, you are forced to say things or take positions that
welcome back to "hardball." new jersey native bernie kerik rose from high school dropout to become police commissioner in new york. in 2001 under then-mayor rudy giuliani. he also had been, this would become oddly important, commissioner of corrections. in 2004 george bush wanted him to join his cabinet. his failure to pay a nanny taxes made him withdraw. by february of 2010, bernie kerik stood convicted eight counts of criminal conspiracy, tax evasion and lying under oath and headed to prison. joining me, bernard kerik author of the new book "from jailer to jailed." thank you for coming on. >> thanks, chris. >> i want to ask you what you know, what we don't know. what the fall from grace felt like, what prison was like. most fear rape in prison, fear being beat up, fear the hell of
what's behind that, and i guess he has tweeted about it this morning. >> he tweeted about it. he said it was essentially an accident. actually his son started first, said lol, dad, what were you doing. this looks like a mistake. jeb bush ended up saying my mistake. i don't think i ended up fooling anyone. using humor to diffuse a story some might have tried to seize on. >> a few hires from hillary clinton, including christina shock ee. who is she? >> she worked for first lady michelle obama, seen as someone who helped remake her image. this is about hillary clinton trying to learn from mistakes of 2008 to make herself look more personable, more relatable. and a lot of people think the more she ended up learning about her loss and making corrections could benefit her in 2016. >> mark murray with our first read. see you tomorrow. thank you. >> thanks, tamron. coming up nbc news investigation on the hidden problem causing hundreds of cars