produced a schedule of all the relevant information i had to hand concerning that inquiry. that relevant information i had to hand concerning that inquiry.— concerning that inquiry. that you are saying _ concerning that inquiry. that you are saying that — concerning that inquiry. that you are saying that there _ concerning that inquiry. that you are saying that there was - concerning that inquiry. that you are saying that there was otheri are saying that there was other material that you assumed was a disclose? ., , ., material that you assumed was a disclose? ., ., disclose? know you said was that other material _ disclose? know you said was that other material on _ disclose? know you said was that other material on the _ disclose? know you said was that other material on the criminal i disclose? know you said was that | other material on the criminal law team would have had that i expected them to do it. let team would have had that i expected them to do it— them to do it. let me look at the disclosure _ them to do it. let me look at the disclosure schedule _ them to do it. let me look at the disclosure schedule in _ them to do it. let me look at the disclosure schedule in this i disclosure schedule in this particular case that was signed by you. do you think we will find this particular report? i you. do you think we will find this particular report?— you. do you think we will find this particular report? i don't think so. i ma particular report? i don't think so. i may have — particular report? i don't think so. i may have done _ particular report? i don't think so. i may have done but _ particular report? i don't think so. i may have done but i _ particular report? i don't think so. i may have done but i don't i particular report? i don't think so. i may have done but i don't think. i may have done but i don't think so. �* ., i may have done but i don't think so. �* :, y :, ~ i may have done but i don't think so. �* ., i. ~ ., so. but do you think that the problem. — so. but do you think that the problem. i — so. but do you think that the problem, i think— so. but do you think that the problem, i think forget i so. but do you think that the | problem, i think forget about so. but do you think that the i problem, i think forget about the technicalities of that. the whole idea of— technicalities of that. the whole idea of having a disclosure statement signed by someone is to make _ statement signed by someone is to make that — statement signed by someone is to make that person responsible for its contents. _ make that person responsible for its contents, yes. make that person responsible for its contents. yes-— contents, yes. correct serve. but as isa contents, yes. correct serve. but as i say... invariably _ contents, yes. correct serve. but as i say... invariably as _ contents, yes. correct serve. but as i say... invariably as i _ contents, yes. correct serve. but as
law division to expose fully what was going on-— was going on. so, did you turn around on _ was going on. so, did you turn around on receiving _ was going on. so, did you turn around on receiving this - was going on. so, did you turn around on receiving this letter| around on receiving this letter and say, know that it's wrong it is disclosable. is say, know that it's wrong it is disclosable.— say, know that it's wrong it is disclosable. a ., ., ., disclosable. as far as i was aware, the were disclosable. as far as i was aware, they were notified _ disclosable. as far as i was aware, they were notified of _ disclosable. as far as i was aware, they were notified of the _ disclosable. as far as i was aware, they were notified of the other - disclosable. as far as i was aware, l they were notified of the other case at some stage. they were notified of the other case at some stage-— at some stage. that is not the ruestion at some stage. that is not the question i— at some stage. that is not the question i asked. _ at some stage. that is not the question i asked. at _ at some stage. that is not the question i asked. at some - at some stage. that is not the l question i asked. at some stage at some stage. that is not the - question i asked. at some stage they were informed _ question i asked. at some stage they were informed about _ question i asked. at some stage they were informed about the _ question i asked. at some stage they were informed about the other - question i asked. at some stage they were informed about the other case, | were informed about the other case, whether it was through me going back to them or another way. did whether it was through me going back to them or another way.— to them or another way. did that form of words _ to them or another way. did that form of words that _ to them or another way. did that form of words that was - to them or another way. did that form of words that was used - to them or another way. did that form of words that was used by i form of words that was used by someone from the criminal law team that they haven't mentioned another case and they can find out from themselves, did that cause you any concern? ~ �* . themselves, did that cause you any concern? ~ �* , ., , themselves, did that cause you any concern? ~ �*, ., , concern? well, it's not very good, is it, at all? _ concern? well, it's not very good, is it, at all? it's _ concern? well, it's not very good, is it, at all? it's like _ concern? well, it's not very good, is it, at all? it's like saying - concern? well, it's not very good, is it, at all? it's like saying go - is it, at all? it's like saying go and find it for yourself. it's not what i would expect from a set of lawyers. forthem what i would expect from a set of lawyers. for them to behave. this articular lawyers. for them to behave. this particular individual wasn't necessarily that.— particular individual wasn't
garethjenkins, i think in your witness statement, you didn't really recall any... witness statement, you didn't really recall any- - -_ recall any... that's maybe once, twice maximum, _ recall any... that's maybe once, twice maximum, there - recall any... that's maybe once, twice maximum, there is - recall any... that's maybe once, | twice maximum, there is another e—mailfrom penny thomas twice maximum, there is another e—mail from penny thomas who explains why i contacted gareth jenkins directly. it was on the request of the criminal law team. normally everything would be done by the team in salford. there is an e—mailfrom penny thomas the team in salford. there is an e—mail from penny thomas that explains why i done it. e-mail from penny thomas that explains why i done it.— e-mail from penny thomas that explains why i done it. what was our explains why i done it. what was your assessment _ explains why i done it. what was your assessment of _ explains why i done it. what was your assessment of penny - explains why i done it. what was - your assessment of penny thomas's? something to do with the prosecution part of fujitsu, i only spoke to her a few times. part of fujitsu, i only spoke to her a few times-— part of fujitsu, i only spoke to her a few times. ~ . , ., , ., a few times. what did you understand the problem — a few times. what did you understand the problem to _ a few times. what did you understand the problem to be _ a few times. what did you understand the problem to be with _ a few times. what did you understand the problem to be with investigators l the problem to be with investigators contacting jenkins directly? thea;r contacting jenkins directly? they ut a contacting jenkins directly? they put a process — contacting jenkins directly? they put a process and _ contacting jenkins directly? tia: put a process and where contacting jenkins directly? tie: put a process and where we contacting jenkins directly? ti21 put a process and where we were to go via the in team who had the engagement with fujitsu, probably to
2012 when royal mail group became deformed and royal mail letters became independent as a private company that is when mr singh was attached to the post office. before that, in london in the criminal law decision. to that, in london in the criminal law decision. ., , decision. to somebody in the criminal law _ decision. to somebody in the criminal law division - decision. to somebody in the criminal law division would i decision. to somebody in the i criminal law division would have been aware of this and your expectation was that they would be responsible for disclosing that in another case?— responsible for disclosing that in another case? that is correct, yes. and that was _ another case? that is correct, yes. and that was not _ another case? that is correct, yes. and that was not something i another case? that is correct, yes. and that was not something that i another case? that is correct, yes. i and that was not something that you need to apply your own mind to? is i need to apply your own mind to? as i said, all need to apply your own mind to? as i said. all the — need to apply your own mind to? s i said, all the information i would have had would have been sent to our criminal law team and they may get to disclosure to the defence. did you expect the criminal law team themselves to take information and disclose it in another one of their cases? ~ . . : disclose it in another one of their cases? ~ , , . ., disclose it in another one of their cases? ,, . ., cases? with respect to something like this, i would _ cases? with respect to something like this, i would have _ cases? with respect to something like this, i would have expected i like this, i would have expected them as lawyers to let other people
months immediate custody. you have had the catalogue of failures that mr blake put to you. the woman that sits behind me —— beside me goes to prison for nine months. you have anything say to her? miss matthews was one who — anything say to her? miss matthews was one who dealt _ anything say to her? miss matthews was one who dealt with _ anything say to her? miss matthews was one who dealt with that. if i anything say to her? miss matthews was one who dealt with that. if mrs | was one who dealt with that. if mrs skinner has been dealt with wrong, that completely wrong but i had very little input into the case. diane matthews. _ little input into the case. diane matthews, your _ little input into the case. diane matthews, your colleague, i little input into the case. diane l matthews, your colleague, didn't think there was a case of theft. she would have discussed that with you? not necessarily. she would have discussed that with you? not necessarily.— not necessarily. she didn't think that janet skinner _ not necessarily. she didn't think that janet skinner had _ not necessarily. she didn't think that janet skinner had stolen i that janet skinner had stolen anything at all and there was no evidence of theft. are you saying she would not have discussed that with you? she would not have discussed that with ou? ., , ., ., with you? know, she would have re orted with you? know, she would have reported that — with you? know, she would have reported that the _ with you? know, she would have reported that the their _ with you? know, she would have reported that the their criminal l with you? know, she would have i reported that the their criminal law team. it was miss matthew's inquiry.
document. is to let the security team know. as _ document. is to let the security team know. as the _ document. is to let the security | team know. as the investigating officer, team know. as the investigating officer. it's _ team know. as the investigating officer. it's a — team know. as the investigating officer, it's a memo _ team know. as the investigating officer, it's a memo it's - team know. as the investigating officer, it's a memo it's not i team know. as the investigating officer, it's a memo it's not a i officer, it's a memo it's not a letter, is this effectively mmo for your letter, is this effectively mmo for ou ., ., , letter, is this effectively mmo for ou ., ., . can letter, is this effectively mmo for you— can we - letter, is this effectively mmo for you_ can we scrolli your attentionyes. can we scroll over the page. _ your attentionyes. can we scroll over the page, please. - your attentionyes. can we scroll over the page, please. we i your attentionyes. can we scroll over the page, please. we can i your attentionyes. can we scroll i over the page, please. we can see at the very bottom it is from rob wilson who at that time was the head of the criminal law team. that wilson who at that time was the head of the criminal law team.— of the criminal law team. that is correct. of the criminal law team. that is correct- if _ of the criminal law team. that is correct. if you _ of the criminal law team. that is correct. if you look _ of the criminal law team. that is correct. if you look at _ of the criminal law team. that is correct. if you look at the i of the criminal law team. that is correct. if you look at the top i of the criminal law team. that is correct. if you look at the top of| correct. if you look at the top of the current _ correct. if you look at the top of the current page _ correct. if you look at the top of the current page he _ correct. if you look at the top of the current page he says, i correct. if you look at the top of the current page he says, you i correct. if you look at the top of l the current page he says, you will be aware of the provisions for the criminal procedure and investigations act 1996 concerning disclosure. please confirm whether there is any material that might reasonably be considered capable of undermining the prosecution case or assisting the defence case which has not already been disclosed. please also let me have various forms. so that as a test that you were aware of. . �* . that as a test that you were aware of. ., �* , . ., . , that as a test that you were aware of. . ., of. that's correct, they are all the forms for the _ of. that's correct, they are all the forms for the committee - of. that's correct, they are all the forms for the committee for i of. that's correct, they are all the forms for the committee for the l forms for the committee for the committal.
forms for the committee for the committal-— forms for the committee for the committal. , ., ., , committal. yes, so that as a test that is being _ committal. yes, so that as a test that is being repeated _ committal. yes, so that as a test that is being repeated to - committal. yes, so that as a test that is being repeated to you i committal. yes, so that as a test that is being repeated to you by. committal. yes, so that as a test i that is being repeated to you by the head of the criminal law team. do you still say that it was the responsibility of cartwright king to ensure appropriate disclosure are not your responsibility. cartwright kina , not your responsibility. cartwright kin: , if not your responsibility. cartwright king. if you _ not your responsibility. cartwright king. if you are — not your responsibility. cartwright king, if you are talking _ not your responsibility. cartwright king, if you are talking about i not your responsibility. cartwright king, if you are talking about the | king, if you are talking about the seema misra case, i would have disclosed everything that i had pertaining to that case. anything above and beyond i would expect the lawyers to disclose. thank you to our viewers on bbc two. you have been watching special coverage of the post office public inquiry. as i said, all internal work that i had i disclose to our lawyers. mi had i disclose to our lawyers. all internal work that related to this particular case. where did you get the impression from that that was all you needed to do?— all you needed to do? that's the way i've been all you needed to do? that's the way i've been told _ all you needed to do? that's the way i've been told from _ all you needed to do? that's the way i've been told from i _ all you needed to do? that's the way
there was some other disclosure officer? ., , , , , there was some other disclosure officer? ., , , ,, ., officer? that is the process at the post office _ officer? that is the process at the post office put — officer? that is the process at the post office put in. _ officer? that is the process at the post office put in. all— officer? that is the process at the post office put in. all of- officer? that is the process at the post office put in. all of my i post office put in. all of my paperwork would be put there and the exhibits would be signed off in the committalfile and sent exhibits would be signed off in the committal file and sent to the criminal law team who would then disclose everything to the defence. can you see a problem with what is being made here.— being made here. there's always a roblem if being made here. there's always a problem if too _ being made here. there's always a problem if too many _ being made here. there's always a problem if too many people i being made here. there's always a problem if too many people are i problem if too many people are involved, they think somebody else may have done it. but i would have expected the criminal law team to be the full disclosure officers.— the full disclosure officers. saying that there is _ the full disclosure officers. saying that there is always _ the full disclosure officers. saying that there is always problems. i the full disclosure officers. saying| that there is always problems. are you not troubled by that in the context of criminal prosecution where somebody could go to prison? as i said, this inquiry is built on merit and what i had would have been sent to the criminal law team. do not reflect on and say, producing a schedule of the criminal proceedings where somebody could go to prison and not including all of the material on that schedule? i
do you think that you might not have been as professional as you think? no, my stance is taken out of context. �* ., ., ., ., ., ., context. i'm going to move on to a few miscellaneous _ context. i'm going to move on to a few miscellaneous topics, - context. i'm going to move on to a few miscellaneous topics, some i context. i'm going to move on to a few miscellaneous topics, some of which have been raised... the first is contact with gareth jenkins. which have been raised... the first is contact with garethjenkins. can we please look at the document? page seven. at the bottom, we have an e—mailfrom seven. at the bottom, we have an e—mail from yourself to gareth jenkins. you say, "gareth, can you please see the attached report and our criminal law team ask you to consider the report and for your initial views and comments on the disclosure." if we scroll up, we
time. are you saying a statement in this form was probably _ time. are you saying a statement in this form was probably made - time. are you saying a statement in this form was probably made by - time. are you saying a statement in l this form was probably made by other members of the security team in other cases and on each occasion it was a statement drafted for them by a firm of solicitors and theyjust put them into it? a firm of solicitors and they 'ust put them into mi a firm of solicitors and they 'ust put them into it? sort of commerce, but what it would _ put them into it? sort of commerce, but what it would be, _ put them into it? sort of commerce, but what it would be, when - put them into it? sort of commerce, but what it would be, when these i but what it would be, when these cases _ but what it would be, when these cases have — but what it would be, when these cases have gone to the criminal law team _ cases have gone to the criminal law team or— cases have gone to the criminal law team or cartwright king in this case they were _ team or cartwright king in this case they were given the statement as to they were given the statement as to the integrity of the horizon statement that come from the lawyers — statement that come from the la ers. ., , . ., statement that come from the la ers. ., ,. ., ., ., lawyers. could we scroll down on the .ae. lawyers. could we scroll down on the page please. — lawyers. could we scroll down on the page please. i— lawyers. could we scroll down on the page please. ijust — lawyers. could we scroll down on the page please, ijust read _ lawyers. could we scroll down on the page please, ijust read another - page please, ijust read another paragraph. it says at the bottom all of the above is accepted based on the terms of review being carried out but this is in no way an acknowledgement by the post office that there is an issue with horizon. over the past ten years many millions of branch reconciliations have been carried out with transactions and balances accurately