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some grass at the end of the 7,000-foot runway after plowing through a arrester beds designed for just an occasion, to bring planes to a halt. no one was hurt. pence tweeted so thankful everyone on our plane is safe. grateful for our first responders and concerns and prayers of so many. back on the trail tomorrow and governor pence joins us on set coming up in our 7:00 a.m. hour. we'll see him right then. good morning, everyone. it's friday. it is friday. october 28th. get ready for halloween, everybody. it's coming soon. with us on set, we have managing editor of bloomberg politics and co-host of "all due respect," john heilemann. ad man donny deutch and in columbus, ohio, senior political editor and white house correspondent for the huffington post, sam stein. >> a little mr. rogers thing going on. >> it's his halloween costume. >> trying to go undercover or something? >> why did i wake up? >> i don't know. i'm just going to look like the kids. >> what is the point of this? what is the point of putting myself through this torture? >> so sweet without it. >> his wife likes it. i guess that's all that matters. >> are we done? are we done? >> it's a good thing that it's all that matters. >> sam stein in columbus, ohio, thank you so much for being with us. >> thanks for having me. it's been a real pleasure so far. >> we'll see you on monday. >> we want your analysis on sunday. the latest national poll puts hillary clinton ahead. the pew research center puts clinton at 46%. donald trump at 40%. donald trump is going to return to arizona for a seventh time, which is a record. this as both candidates head to iowa tonight. trump in cedar rapids. clinton in des moines. a state where trump has been leading but in a new poll shows clinton jumping seven points since last month into a tie. 44 to 44. gary johnson dropping six points to 4%. a new poll shows a six-point swing in clinton's direction. trump barely ahead. 44% to her 43%. johnson at 8%. in north carolina, clinton leading by four points. 47% to trump's 43%. according to the latest early votie ining analysis, 13.7 mill people have voted nationwide. more than half have been cast in 12 battleground states giving clinton the edge ahead of trump by six points in georgia. 34 points in iowa. 28 points in north carolina. >> john heilemann, state of the race according -- let's just talk about at the end of the week. we've had polls that have shown 13 points or 12. there's been a fox news poll that has it at 3. the pew poll at 6. these battleground states that have come out, not any good news in there for donald trump. >> not any good news anywhere for donald trump i would say. the race was basically over at the end of the week and it's closer to over now because you're passing each day. i think -- i don't really love the statistical what the percentage -- >> 92.684. >> i'm skeptical. you don't want to declare the race to be completely over, but she's pretty solidly at a 6 or 7 lead and battleground states which are tighter in places we're seeing all over the place where she's starting to pull ahead and places like georgia where it's a statistical dead heat. if we wake up on election day and she won georgia, we're close to -- >> a lot of swing states are tight. when the swing states are north carolina, arizona, and georgia -- >> which are not usually swing states. >> that's what i'm saying. when they are those states, you know you have a republican that's really campaigned back on their heels. >> those states are nonnegotiable for donald trump to win. texas was never, i don't think, ever going to go democratic this time. the fact that that's close should be a warning sign as well. so i think that pew poll that shows six points nationally captures the average feels about where the race is but trump has to lockdown those three states we just talked, georgia, arizona and iowa and win the honest to goodness swing states which he's not winning those either. north carolina, virginia, he's down double digits now. colorado, pennsylvania. all over the map. >> three weeks out is one thing. you don't say it's over when it's three weeks. when it's two weeks, it's still not over. now we're ten days out maybe. ten days out. he's going to have to pick up five points nationally in ten days to get those swing states going his way. a lot of people are going to have to lie to pollsters, which just doesn't happen to that degree. i'm with john. i just don't say anything is ever over. ever. but at the end of this week, there was some polls out midweek that were good for him in swing states. these are not. >> first of all, let's talk about the polls that we're going to have to understand that somebody is wrong within the margin of error. if we have 12 points swings, we're going to have new rules about polls. >> you look at what happened in the 2012 race. gall >> these polls are different to your point of the last couple days you see tightening. i'm curious. the last two days for trump have been the best two days or best last two or three days in the campaign in that he's been inadvisable. with very the obama premiums going up 25%. next level of wikileaks. probably the most severe ones yet. i would not be surprised if another day or two we don't see the polls tighten a point or two in the other direction. having said that -- >> people are saying he'll be at 37%. there's always tightening. america is 50-50 nation usually. so now -- >> if you have watched the polls, when he goes a few days without dropping all over himself, it kind of comes back like that. as you guys talked all during yesterday at the end of the day going back to battle states, that even if you do the hail mary he's at 265. there's no path without new hampshire. that's not happening. i said this the day of billy bush, the election ended that day. no good news for this gentleman. >> there's no tightening in the polls. >> i'm saying in the next two days. >> let me finish. in iowa, for instance, iowa has been the traditional battleground states is where trump has done best. that seven-point jump for her in iowa if that poll is correct is indicative of not tightening -- >> from last month to this month. >> that's not a trend toward tightening. that's a trend toward her getting to accelerating her broader lead in the race. >> you can look midweek. there was some polls out talking about a tightening race. again, i think -- i love the people that say don't look at one poll. you have to look at a collection of polls. that's why i think these news organizations sort of doing the poll of polls. pretty smart thing to do. >> sam is a loud swallower. we've been listening to him drinking his coffee this morning. >> is there something you want to talk about with everybody? you seem just a little confused and lost and struggled lately. >> do you know where you're going to? do you like the things your life is showing you? >> what is this show? >> you just answered yes. >> ten days until the election and i'm being put on the couch. what is happening here? >> sam, if you watched -- >> it's 6:10 in columbus. here i am -- sam, we've upset you. sam, if you listen to trump -- >> sam's mom by the way is going to kick my ass next time she sees me. >> fun story about that but go ahead. >> i want to hear the story first. >> okay. so i was at a rally. we were attending a trump rally in springfield, iowa, and we were talking to a bunch of attendees about what happens potentially on the day after the election. "the new york times" had a story about rioting in the streets. people at trump rally, kind people. they don't care about rioting. they understand the stakes of the election very invested in it. there's no blood in the streets. but a bunch of people came up to me and were, like, we see you on "morning joe" and it's great but we're more concerned about the air time joe is giving you. willie, you were going to ask me something. >> you can just talk if you want to. i was going to say if you listen to trump on the campaign trail he shines a light on florida and ohio. we're doing great in ohio. look at florida where it's tight. that's true actually if you look at the numbers. when you look at everything around that, typically in a presidential race you would say florida, ohio, let's focus on those. it's the things happening around him in the other states that matter in north carolina that it won't matter if you can somehow pull off ohio and florida if he loses all these other states we've been talking about this morning. >> i don't think people -- that's the depth of his issue here even if he got north carolina, somehow salvaged arizona, georgia, iowa, nevada, we're going down the list here. so long as he loses colorado, virginia, pennsylvania, new hampshire, and doesn't pick up that district in maine, i mean, he's done. this is how monumental the task is for him. polls are one thing. he comes into this final stretch of the campaign, the numbers came in last night, he and his committees have $119 million cash on hand. clinton has 162 million cash on hand. there's so much more money she has to play with and we forget this sometimes, he doesn't just have to be tied in the polls heading into the election, he has to be up a few percentage points owing to the fact that he's not invested in a robust ground game operation that she has. you look at some of the numbers of offices that she has open in arizona, for instance, and even texas, and she dwarfs what he's doing in terms of infrastructure. this task is monumental. it's going to take something intense national change of focus and i just don't see it happening right now. >> i thought he bounced back. >> you just pushed that button and he goes. his mother has nothing to complain about today. >> you're exactly right, sam. i want to thank you. i'm serious about this. i thank you for what you say about trump supporters. i read stories on the front page of "the new york times," which is a paper i love and respect and read every day. it is my paper that i read every day. when i see headlines trump backers see revolution if clinton wins. it's deeply insulting to people like my brother, people like nicole's parents and to the people that you see and the people you see when you go out to rallies. there's always bad apples in every crowd but to suggest that they are, like, these people, the bundys, who i just can't even begin to imagine how any jury on this planet could acquit those people. i'm sure all of the jurors were talking about they love the constitution. how about the rule of law? there is no such thing as rule of law i guess in that. it's just absolutely staggering to me that the jury acquitted all of those defendants in the case who just basically spit at the rule of law. anyway, sam, back to your point, there's going to be no blood in the streets. it's deeply offensive that the national media is pushing this narrative. it's just like sarah palin when she was getting -- after getting just bashed by the press for months, she was getting 10,000 people at rallies at the end of her campaign. joe biden was getting, like, 47. they had to go through the crowds and find something that called her a socialist. claimed it was the end of american democracy. just stop. >> once again, i agree. >> just stop. stop insulting trump supporters. >> 64% of trump supporters believe the election is going to be rigged. that doesn't translate to muskets being taken off shelves. >> donny, do you know over 50% of democrats believed at one point politico reported that george w. bush knew about the nine attacks before they happened and was complicit in the attacks on america? >> and? >> we can all come up with -- >> this is a simple -- >> no one is going to take up muskets. >> is it beyond the palm to see a few bad apples. you talk to reporters at every rally and they say they feel it. so, no, do i think they're going to be -- >> they feel it. this feel it. >> joe, is there no -- >> yes, there's rage. there is rage on both sides. >> joe, you say that rage is equal on both sides? >> you go to -- if you're going to let me talk here. if you talk to reporters who actually dare to cross bernie sanders and the things that were said by bernie sanders supporters who we love and respect bernie, there was rage there. there's rage on both sides. the national media only sees it through their own goggles. there's only rage on one side all the time. there's only one party that ever believes elections are fixed. forget that fact that we've only won two elections in 87 years and democrats freaked out and said we fixed both of them. sam, you were there last night. talk about the rage and hatred and blood in the streets. by the way, sam, for the record, my first campaign slogan, the streets will flow with the blood of the unbelievers. i have a bumper sticker for you. >> a winning slogan if there ever was. >> got 62%. >> it could be just that i'm in ohio and people are super nice, but we talked to, like, maybe two dozen people about what -- we asked them the question. you wake up november 9th and your guy has lost. what is that day like for you? >> of course any reporter is antidotal. but these people were by in large understanding of how democracy works. respectful of the electoral process. they do think there's tilting on the scales for hillary clinton when it comes to media coverage and so on and so forth, but they said life goes on. i have other things in my life that i have to worry about. jobs. health care. religion. stuff like that. i recognize that i'm going to have to go back and work doubly hard to elect republicans in 2018, 2020. that being said, it's objectively true that trump stirred up a lot more animus in ways that aren't tradition of the campaign. from what i got from my atte attending at this rally in springfield where i sat in the audience, these people understand how this works. i just don't see how there's going to be blood in the streets. >> i've seen a lot of disturbing things on the trump campaign this year. john heilemann, you have a stern look on your face. will there be revolution in the streets? >> for a lot of reporters it's been easy to find people like the gentleman on camera saying if hillary clinton was elected, she might have to be shot. i'm not predicting revolution. it's not been cherry picking. you can find people at a lot of these events will come on camera or say things to reporters that you won't generally hear at a clinton rally. it's not the majority of trump supporters. there will not be a revolution the day after the election. it's not hard to find people who will say things at trump rallies. that's been true for a year. >> there are people trying to make money on radio and websites willing to go out and say ridiculous things. if you lose, grab your musket. >> to go to muskets, former congressman joe walsh, the guy who called barack obama a liar from the wall of congress, tweeted he was going to pick up muskets two days ago. i don't think there are many mus muskets in america anymore. >> it wasn't that joe that told obama he was a liar. >> it was not? >> it wasn't. >> joe wilson. sorry. my error. >> he's been out of congress for years. people are freaking out over what this crackpot who says crackpot things and has been saying them for years. >> there is a loud vocal minority of crackpots that have been attracted to donald trump. >> there are. i don't want the media to paint with too broad of a brush because half of the people who are supporting donald trump, willie, are supporting donald trump because they can't bring themselves to vote for hillary clinton. they're disgusted by what he says about muslims. they're disgusted about what he said about david duke. they're disgusted about a lot of things and they're voting for their own personal reasons that have nothing to do with all of that, and they're going to go back to work the next day, and they're going to -- you know what they're going to say in "the new york times"? this is a race we should have won. we need to get our act together. >> of course it's not most of them. this is why it's important for donald trump on election night should he lose to get up on that stage and say we had a tough race. hillary clinton is now president of the united states. turn the page and move on. i think he'll do that. >> i have no reason to believe he won't. >> i don't either. i do know what donny deutch is going to do the day after. he's going to do the same thing he does every day. he's going to go into his closet which is the size of this studio and say what's the tightest black baby gap t-shirt i can find and what child do i rent this morning to walk through central park to try to pick up women? >> what's interesting that the audience doesn't know is joe is constantly texting me giving me tips for workout regimen and -- >> do you really want to go there? >> let's go, pal. >> sam stein -- >> he's bringing sam. he can't -- >> donny deutch, how many hours a day -- sam, here's a quick question for you. because you actually work for a living. how many hours a day do you think donny deutch works out in his gym? just guess? >> i would put plus/minus at 6.5. >> he works out in his gym 3 1/2 hours a day. >> i will tell you the truth because i get a lot of questions from the audience on health care. i'll put in an hour and a half a day because i think good health and a good sense of self-worth. maybe two hours. >> you put in three hours a day. >> two hours. >> a reporter told me -- i think you're mocking those in our society that believe in good heal. >> you know who i'm mocking? i'm mocking people that have so many -- >> two hours of working out. an hour on the hair. hour and a half on grooming. >> the hair just happens on its own. willie knows this. we exchange products. >> okay. >> do i have to do this? >> what is happening? >> you know that that's the hour. the special hour. >> willie, if you want to know what happens before the workout, it's the jose conseco and mark mcgwire bathroom scene. >> that's not been proven. those are only allegations. those are only allegations. >> donny hgh deutch. >> more discomfort for the clinton campaign. they shot each other in the butt. mcgwire and conseco. >> it was the thigh. >> more discomfort for all of us and the clinton campaign over the latest wikileaks release. i have a simple question that as far as the survey goes -- once again, they all sound like they were shocked as everybody else about this. >> whoever gave them permission to have a private server was the question. later, the republican vice presidential nominee governor mike pence joins us live here on set. plus the rnc's chief strategist and communications director. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. 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[indistinct conveation] announcer: a full life measured in seats starts th the righes early on. car ashes are leading iller of children 1 to 13. learn how to prevent at and injuries by using the r car seat for your chi age anze. employees at dixon. they're gone. maybe we'll get them back. should we try getting them back. now with me they wouldn't be able to leave because whatever the hell they make, when they go to mexico and they make their product and want to send it over the border and they leave us with closed plants and unemployment, and mexico gets the cash and factory and everything, i say no thank you, it's 35% tax to get your product. >> no shortage -- >> come over here, you. >> wi-fi guy. >> here's the wi-fi guy. i asked him yesterday. we have a router, right, from apple. i said, we need this to work. what did you say, hugh? we can't do it, right? >> can't just plug it in. >> i said i need you to go and torch the place, right? so it's working this morning. hugh -- we don't have video. hugh went out and he had, like, a chainsaw. did you tear it up? ripped it up? it's working. >> no comment he says. >> okay. >> that's what a macgyver type stuff. >> coming up, there is no -- >> big hand to hugh. we didn't have wi-fi on the set working effectively but this morning someone came in and said you do know that we have wi-fi in the fourth floor bathroom but now we it down here. >> fantastic. >> coming up, there's no shortage of awkward debate moments over the last year or so. we have one that is pretty jaw dropping. wait until you hear what senator mark kirk said to tammy duckworth. should we just call her senator duckworth now? >> you can call her senator now. >> and later, david crosby joins the table to talk about his new album, and he's got a lot to say about the presidential race. we'll be back with much more "morning joe." ♪ ♪ ♪ lease a 2016 lincoln mkx for $349 a month. only ayour lcoln dealer. 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[music] [police sin] [music] jess: homany did you have? shawn: i ouldfine. jess: you shlde? officer: sir, go ahead and epout t. shawn: s, sir. bud: see ya, buddy. today, sha's got a heing, we'll see ht es. gooduck! soit turns out buzd driving and drunk iving, they're e hing and it costs around $10,000. whenou're cse to peop you love, does psoasis ever get the y of? you have deratetoevere psorias, you can embrace thchance of comy clearatetoevere psorias, skinith taz. with tas haa siifant improvement of their psoriasis plaques. in f ft, 4 out of 10 e aceved completely ear skin. not use if you e leic to ltz. before startinu shou be checke r berculos. taltz may increase your skf fections and lower your ability toight them. te your door if you are beg ted for an infeconor have syto. and lower your ability toight them. iyou have receida vaccine or p. flammatory bel dease can ppenith lt now'your cncat completelylear skin. ju ask your doctor about ttz. 32 past the hour. there's more insight into the rift inside the clinton campaign over the handling of her private e-mail server and how some in her inner circle were caught off guard by it as wikileaks continues their dump of e-mails. the release allegedly hacked from hillary clinton's campaign manager john podesta. these e-mails have not been independently authenticated by nbc news. >> the wind up. the delivery and now the pitch. >> okay. the day "the new york times" story was published exposing hillary clinton's use of the private e-mail account and server, an exchange between podesta and future campaign manager robby mook shows they were blind-sided. podesta asked mook, did have you any idea of the depth of this story? to which mook responded, no. we brought up existence of e-mails in research this summer but we're told that everything was taken care of. in a separate exchange between clinton ally neera tanden and podesta from july of last year, tanden says do we actually know who told hillary she could use a private e-mail and has that person been drawn and quartered? whole thing is [ bleep ] insane. >> i can guess what that expletive was. >> and focusing on clinton's exclusive interview with andrea mitchell in which she says she was sorry over the controversy of the server but didn't apologize for her decision to use it. tanden pushed for her to formally apologize saying everyone wants her to apologize. she should. apologies be like her achilles' heel. she said the word sorry. she'll get to a full apology in a few interviews and new from -- >> before we get to next one. let's talk about the revelations. it makes you feel better that people around her -- >> i remember being stunned about this private server. i remember the press conference that she had and even commentators after going it must have been secure. there's so much assumption going on here when it just seems like they did something so out of bounds to obviously protect some sort of interest. and now it all seems very clear what was going on. >> it is good to know that people behind the scenes -- the people running the campaign. >> people that want her to win. by the way, me. >> knew it was wrong and were very upset by it. which of course makes all of the hacks on the outside saying that there's nothing to see here move along for the past year and a half and why the hillary clinton e-mail story -- just shut up. it's just stupid. it's a big deal. people running her campaign knew it was a big deal. for me at least, there's assurance that john podesta, and all of them straight shooters that saw this and said what in the world? it's really great news that she's actually surrounded herself by people -- >> that's the silver lining in this sleazy story that there's clinton 2.0 inner circle. the drip, drip, drip continues. the only other good news for hillary if you're trying to defend this or swerve around it is this is baked in. people know her as an untrustworthy politician exclamation point. baked in if the next person from trump university comes out. the thing i was curious about yesterday that i thought the most extreme thing that happened was the bill clinton thing yesterday. i'm curious about you. what i found confusing about that, it's all about pay for play. to me that was just pay and another pay but still no play there. the fact that, okay, the people are trying to drum up money for charity and by the way do you want bill to speak at this thing, i wasn't quite sure where that moved the ball along. in other words, it was quid pro quo but scratch by back and scratch by back again. what was i missing? >> one of the biggest problems with the story all along and i have always thought that this was a huge political vulnerability for her, the foundation and questions about where the corporate donations, personal profit making and then public policy. the problem has been that that's been the missing link. what you've seen is a lot of skeezy behavior but not the smoking gun because you can demonstrate that policy had changed at the state department. that link is the link that everyone has been looking for and so for has been absent. you haven't been able to find it. maybe it doesn't exist. >> this reinforces a lot of things that people thought they knew about hillary clinton that was the server was a terrible idea. using clinton foundation to raise money for foreign governments was a terrible idea. she was a cynical calculating politician. we knew that. she did a two-year focus group before she ran for president and they had to decide whether they want her to fall under hip bad ass or loveable grandma. it's like out of "veep." >> we have a story coming up about how they did 10 or 11 drafts before sending out a tweet. also new from wikileaks hack is one purportedly send in january who served as chief of staff to joe biden and al gore and suggests that the campaign prepare for how to handle bill clinton's personal history with women. the e-mail says we need to set aside time, tomorrow, thursday, to do q and a on the political questions which now seem to be really owning the coverage. with a fourth topic called wjc issues which stood for william jefferson clinton. questions were his conduct relevant to your campaign. b, you said every woman should be believed. why not the women who accused him? c, will you apologize to the women who were wrongly smeared by your husband and his allies, and d, how is what bill clinton did different from what bill cosby did? another aide responded asking podesta how to handle the questions but no response has been posted. >> what's the date of that e-mail? do we know? >> let me look it up. you guys continue. >> alex, what's the date on that e-mail? >> we're checking. standby. >> why do you ask? >> he was involved in debate prep. my god. they knew there was a problem. this is debate prep. he's preparing her to answer potential questions that would come up in a debate. it strikes me that this is -- if you weren't doing this kind of preparation, it would be political malpractice. >> that was january 12th, which suggests of course the trump attacks started at the end of december and they were going back and forth. ron klain who is in the running we hear to be hillary's chief of staff, he anticipated questions that were going to be asked and questions that were ultimately asked. >> this is a classic -- that is a nothing to see here e-mail. people know bill clinton has had issues with women and she might be asked about them and he's saying we need to prepare for them. okay. yeah. >> i think he probably prepared her well because those were questions asked ultimately. >> unlike where you are seeing with great deal of clarity something that a lotf people suspected for a long time which is that there was co-mingling of charitable work and bill clinton making money. >> it's like e-mails on the server when clintons stare at the camera saying this is the most shocking, horrible thing ever. vast right wing conspiracy. so mean and angry on the right and how horrible human beings are and you have people saying these are legitimate questions or these are questions that could come up. we have to prep for them. they weren't legitimate questions than they would say don't answer that. that's garbage, et cetera, et cetera. the server stuff, i think just again for me reassures me that she doesn't have a bunch of yes men and yes women around her. i'm sure i'll get in trouble with that from republicans. it's just the case. it's very -- i've said it before. it's very reassuring. there will be another e-mail that said we're going to set this all up. so suckers will believe that we're upset by this. >> okay. we'll be right back with must read opinion pages. 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(proly) i ramm that t. and i can casablons. ll be helping turbines power citi. i put a tuine on a cat. i can make hospitals run more (frciently.d ahh) this isn't competion! i can make hospitals run more (frciently.d ahh) ere'no surce..there. no one speed.. no one way of driving each and everroad. t ere is one car at can conquerheall, the mercedz c-class. five driving modes let you customize the steering, shift points, and suspsi to fit the mood youe in... d the road you'ron. th2016 c-class. lease the c300 for $369 a month at your local mercedesenz dealer. >> my family has served this nation in uniform going back to the revolution. i've bled for this nation. i want to be there in the senate when drums of war sound because people are quick to sound the drums of war, and i want to be there to say this is what it cost? this is what you're asking us to do? i'll go. families like mine are the ones that bleed first. >> 30 seconds to rebut. >> i had forgotten that your parents came all of the way from thailand to serve george washington. >> move onto the next question. now your chance. >> okay. i just won. wow. >> she was trying to figure out what senate office building she was going to go to. >> what? that was tammy duckworth and kirk in a debate last night. she won that. we'll be right back. 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[indistinct conversatn] nnncer: a fullife asurd in seats tarts with the right ones early on. car crhes are a leing killer of children 1 to 13. lrn how to prevent deaths d injuries ung the right car st for your child'se and ze. anyou n't do that on a mac.e sc. transportas animatorshe rld >> before the break we played that awkward moment between tammy duckworth and incumbent republican mark kirk. duckworth, who lost both legs and earned a purple heart in the iraq war was born in thailand to a thai mother and american father who traces his military roots to the revolutionary war. kirk's campaign later issued a statement only partially addressing the comments saying, senator kirk has consistently called represent duckworth a war hero and honors her family's service to this country. that's not what this debate was about. representative duckworth was unable to defend her failures at the va and falsely attacked senator kirk over his record on supporting gay rights. >> the same mark kirk that unendorsed his republican nominee and called him out in paid ads? got you. good luck. >> that kirk statement addresses none of what kirk said. >> just apologize and -- >> not only was it dumb and racist. it didn't make sense. >> something very wrong about it. >> with us now for the must read op- op-eds, arthur brooks. we'll do peggy noonan. great disappointment of 2016? >> what would that be? >> let me tell you. i didn't include last week what i thought was the most vexing question of 2016. i cut it out for space. i had asserted that donald trump was a nut. but that a sane trump could have won in a landslide. the vexing question. could a nonnutty trump have broken through and captured the imagination of republicans and many democrats? won the nomination? what struck me after the column was that a number of angry trump supporters told me that i didn't get it. he may act like a nut, but he had to be crazy to break through. my question now is what does its answer to tell us about our political future? a hopeful answer is that mr. trump is a reaction to the careful empty consultant crafted insincerity of the past and the next cycle candidate will be a reaction to the mad, hypercharged undirected electricity of this one. >> i can tell you don't buy it already. with a have you learned from donald trump's success in the republican party? >> let's take on the whole thing. could he make it if he's not nuts? it's pretty dubious to say that, yes, he could. why? number one, if he weren't nuts he wouldn't have been treated like a reality show. he got an earned media share of 80% all of the way through the primaries. >> if any of us set our hair on fire, the media is going to cover it. >> the other 16 guys get 20%. he gets 80% on cnn using data that we see. look, when he was down against kasich and cruz i remember he was doing this put the camera on him and let it roll for 90 minutes. >> let me stop you there. you talk about cnn. we came under heavy criticism as well for having him on the show a lot. you know what? we announced on the show, and i think this is a lesson. we announced to every candidate. you don't like trump coming up. pick up the phone. give us a call. we'll have you on. you know, lindsey graham was the only person -- >> he came on. >> markets work. i understand. >> what i'm saying is maybe the lesson for candidates is don't run, don't hide. don't be scared. get out there. >> you don't like it, go on "morning joe." i got it. >> or cnn. don't hide in your little cove. >> it was an 80/20 deal. that was the intense interest had to do with that. primaries when donald trump was doing in a rally pretending to do john kasich. have you ever seen this guy eat? he eats like a dog and then cnn cuts away to footage of john kasich eating. it's a show. it's a fantastic show. that's behavior. the really interesting thing is -- >> what's the lesson? >> the lesson from this is if you want -- look, you said this consistently on the over the past six months. if you want to actually win, you have to speak to the concerns that people have. we have two kinds of republicans. we have republicans who speak to the concerns that people have and then those who are normal, right? you have to be both. i remember you were telling somebody that they needed to be a populist. but really what that means is you need to have a set of economic policies and rhetoric that's aspirational that makes people necessary. >> the problem is with that formula, republicans have part of it down but not the other part. >> they don't have the other part. >> where do we find the fusion? you're not going to like when i say this. how do we have fusion of aei and hard populism on trade? horde populism on tax policy? a lot came in in '94 that were a mix. i don't know why hedge funders pay 14% tax rate. that's offensive to me. i have a feeling if i'm feeling that as a small government conservative, probably 80% of americans of feeling that. >> let me answer the question by saying if only someone with a populist world view and had good sensibilities about policy and super savvy in media and great head of hair ran for president, is there anybody out there like that? >> willie geist? i don't know willie's politics. >> i don't think you have to have a specific trade or immigration policy that's very populist or not very populist. i think that you have to have a world view and aspirational leadership approach that says i believe that everybody is necessary to this economy. we're leaving people behind. i have a way to address this. and maybe you're more open on trade or less open on trade but reason you and i came into the conservative movement in the first place was because of ronald reagan. i grew up in a liberal household in seattle which is redundant. i was in high school. ronald reagan was running for president. i remember looking at it and saying he loves me. what's up with that? that was because he was an aspirational leader. >> john heilemann, we have to go to break. you want to talk. >> we have to go to break. >> we'll hold arthur over. can you stay a little longer? >> i would love to. >> sam stein doesn't feel that way. >> get rid of sam. >> should we kick him off the island. how has this morning been for you? >> it's been okay. fine. nothing special. >> what have you been doing in columbus for the last hour? >> i've been sitting here listening to you guys talk. >> do you like arthur brooks? he seems like a smart guy. >> i had a question for him, you know, but if we have to go to break, we have to go to break. >> sam, can we hold sam over just for one tiny question. his mom is going to get pissed off at us if we don't. >> sam's face is like the sad octopus face. he's an emoji right now. >> coming up -- sad bearded o octopus. >> before you make fun, think of donald trump just going tweet and it's totally inappropriate. sometimes it takes thought, people. and governor mike pence -- >> it takes a village to do a tweet. not for donald though. >> words matter, people. you are not going to make fun of this. >> just call them neurotic. >> you don't call them hysterical neurotic bad messes. >> that's what he called her. we'll be right back. ople would me idifferent countries that raveled, what is your nationalitand i d always answer hispanic. when i got my ancestrdna sus it was a shoer. i'everhi. i'm fr all nations. uld ok at forms now anwonderwhat di mar? causi'm everything d i marked other orr your kitowrynly youat ancestryd.com. upgrat vage.cobusissteand learhow yod save ifou have moderate to and you' tki to yo door abothis is mira.ation... and prott my jointng to furtherame.in thiss humira humiraor forany adul.rther. it targe and helps to bloca spec source of inflaation that contributes to r rsytoms. humira has been clically studied for over 18 years. humira can lower your abi, including tuberculis. serious, somimes fatal fections and cancers, including lymphoma, haveped, as have bld, liver and nervous system problems, serious allergiceactions, cancers, including lymphoma, haveped, asand new or wseningnd nervoheart failuroblems, bere treatment, get tested f tb. tell yr doct if u've bn to areas e ceain fungal are pre to iecons,and if yo, or hu-li symptoms osores. don't t ra if ready for nechapter? n. talk to your ratologist. this is humira at wo it's what the national dt uldo to r ony.pear? if we don't solve our debt proem 19 tllioioand growin money for programs like education will shrink in just 8 years, ten thdebt wi be our thirdlargest feraa bad wsor small businesses. e goodews? the's ill time for a solution. ask the ides for a plan to secure r future. >> if people wonder, yes, hillary clinton is my friend. she's been a friend to me and barack and malia and sasha and bill and hillary clinton have been supportive from the very day my husband took the oath of office when you hear folks talking about a global conspiracy and saying that this election is rigged, understand that they are trying to get you to stay home. they are trying to convince you that your vote doesn't matter. just for the record, in this country, the united states of america, the voters decide our elections. they've always decided. voters decide who wins and who loses period end of story. >> there is a global conspiracy. >> welcome back to "morning joe." it's friday, october 28th. still with us -- >> it's to get sam stein to cut his beard. people working together from all over the world. >> managing editor of bloomberg politics, john heilemann and contributing opinion writer at "the new york times" arthur brooks. senior political editor and white house correspondent for huffington post sam stein and joining the conversation on capitol hill, white house correspondent for "the wall street journal" carol lee back with us. good to have you. >> sam, talking about the global conspiracy to get your beard cut off. >> he had a question for arthur. >> go ahead. >> we were talking about peggy's column and whether a saner trump could have emerged. arthur, you know, you're in the movement here. as i read the primary, what i thought was that trump really excelled for two reasons. one was his position on immigration to be blunt about it. he was talking in ways that the republican primary voters responded really well to. second was how he responded to republican elected officials in d.c. where he said they hadn't been getting the job done and failed at their tasks and those seemed to be two recipes that did well in a primary but couldn't necessarily translate all that well in a general election. if that's the case, if you have to do that one thing for a primary and you're kind of screwing yourself for a general election, how do you go about mixing the party so incentive structures are reversed where you're doing something like jeb bush said where you're willing to sacrifice for the general election? >> that's a great question. i appreciate that. i think that the magic wasn't what he said about immigration or elites in washington. the magic is trump was the one that said i'll fight for you and your family. there weren't enough people saying i'll fight for you and your family. you don't have to say specifically that about immigration or trade or foreign policy. you have to convince people you're going to fight for people and their families. >> the thing i noticed as a candidate that surprised me. you walk into a room. doesn't matter what you're wearing. whether you're wearing a suit. you walk into a room and people get it. and i noticed that early on. they sense you're going to fight for them and it's not canned and hokey. doesn't matter what -- it matters what you say but people will give -- i had a lot of people come up to me saying i disagree with you on 80% of the issues i voted for you because you're going to fight for us. >> do you think that someone can move through -- i want to be clear. if someone is enough of a fighter and comes off as enough of a populist, you think they can make it through the republican party by still supporting comprehensive immigration reform? i don't see that. >> i do. but you have to explain it in a way that you're not on the defensive. republicans used to look at democrats and laugh because they were always on the defensive. i use the example he doesn't like when i use it but john kerry voted for the war before i voted against it. that's the sort of thing that democrats used to always get tangled up in. now it's republicans getting tangled up in immigration reform. background checks. these issues that the overwhelming majority of americans support and we're explaining why we're still living in 1971. >> let's look at the facts here for a second. 80% of the american population has had zero percent increase in the past eight years. that's the truth. when economists like me say 2.5% income increase or net income increase in the country 2.5% economic growth rate, that's a lie. 0% for bottom 80%. someone has to recognize that and say i'll fight to make that different. only guy that does it says by the way my lusolutions are isolationism and restrictism and shutting down straight, i get it. he has solutions. they aren't right but other ones aren't talking about the fact there's this discomfort. you can walk into a room -- >> i want to be clear and we have to go to news. when you say he has solutions, you're not saying they're your solutions. that's what the voter is saying. he's fighting for us. >> peggy noonan says if he were not nuts, he would get elected. i think that he came in and said you know i'm nuts. that's why you like me. i'm going try big things and i'm going to be fighting for you. take that. do it with the kind of policies that i believe will actually work and then you might have magic. >> i agree with that. donald trump will return to arizona for a seventh time this weekend, which according to the arizona republic is a record for a gop nominee in a state that voted for the republican in all but one election since 1952. this as both candidates head to iowa tonight. trump in cedar rapids. cli clinton in des moines. a new poll shows clinton jumping seven points since last month into a tie. 44% to 44%. gary johnson dropping six points to 4%. the new poll on georgia also shows a 6-point swing in clinton's direction. trump barely ahead 44% to 43%. and in north carolina, clinton leading by four points. 47% to trump's 43%. >> no good news for donald trump in any of the early swing states. >> there's not a lot of good news in there. if you want to look at something perhaps that captures where we are in the race, it's iowa. a state that donald trump should win that donald trump must win just in the last month hillary clinton is up seven points there. if iowa, arizona, we saw georgia, six-point swing over the last month there, if those are honest to goodness swing states, donald trump has no chance to win. >> i actually think, john heilemann, let's say a rising tide lifts all boats and trump goes up three, four, five points. let's just say that. it's not going to happen in ten days. let's say it did. i still sense that north carolina could actually be his waterloo. that's just a state -- it's pulling away from him. it's the sort of state like colorado that just demographically is set up to break against his politics. >> it's the ultimate swing state. the only state in 2008 and 2012 where barack obama won in 2008 and lost in 2012. very narrowly between those two. and the state is changing rapidly in the sense that there's more college educated voters there. college educated white voters and demographic mix. winston-salem. it's one of those states like virginia that looks a lot more like what america now looks like. so she seems to have had narrow lead there throughout and again it's one of the states that if he does not win, there's really no path for him. to me the most interesting thing that we saw yesterday and there's been a lot of focus on this voter suppression piece of the bloomberg business piece that my colleagues wrote where you have trump people say our strategy now is voter suppression. the more interesting piece of that story was the part that says trump has been doing more polling and more data analytics that people think and people on the record saying we know we're losing. we know that the race is basically gone. and that their actual internal perception -- whether donald trump knows it but within the campaign people look at the data have now concluded what everyone else has concluded which is there's no path for him to win and you have a desperate casting about for some path. they think new hampshire is gone. they know pennsylvania is gone. they know colorado is gone. people inside the campaign say maybe if we could somehow win new mexico which is state that's not been a swing state for a long time. democrats have won that state for successful elections. whether it's daunting in donald trump's head is another question. within the campaign people looking at the data that they put together internally understand where this is headed. >> hillary clinton has held a steady lead in pennsylvania but real clear politics has moved it to the tossup category on its electoral map as latest average has tightened to five points. earlier this week the average deemed texas to be a tossup as well. but there still is no apparent major clinton investment in that state. meanwhile, we're getting our last look into the campaign fund-raising numbers before the election and hillary clinton more than doubles donald trump in cash on hand in the homestretch. in the first three weeks of october, trump raised 61 million while clinton took in 101 million. clinton outspent trump 87 million for him on 125 million for her, and in cash on hand, trump has 67.6 million while clinton in the final stretch has 153.5 million. >> that's a lot of cash. >> this is just another way in which she has the advantage broadly. i think you will -- it's kind of plays into donald trump's narrative that he's the underdog that the system is against him and that she's out to just raising money. he was criticizing her ahead of the debate because she was raising money. this is another way in which she can put money in a lot of places and force him to fight in places that republicans traditionally would not have to fight this close to the election and you'll see him doing that. >> you look at the fact that the clinton campaign was in north carolina yesterday playing big. the trump campaign is going to arizona right now for a record seventh time. not a good tell of the tape there. it looks like she really is going for the big win. >> she is. you've heard -- i was out with president obama earlier this week, and he was talking about we don't want to just win, we want to win big, and they feel very good about a state like arizona in particular. not so much georgia this time around. definitely arizona. and you look at what the trump campaign is doing and you saw donald trump in washington, d.c. this week, which is not a place that he would need to be spending time this close to an election. and you see mike pence was out in utah saying republicans need to come home. they're fighting in all of these places that traditionally you wouldn't have to and it just makes it -- it again underscores what you were talking about earlier which is that it's a narrow path at this point. >> here's the interesting point of money news. does donald trump know that he's lost and our friend nick confessore reporting on these financial filings, the amount of cash donald trump put into his own campaign in the first three weeks of october, zero dollars. if he had been putting in a couple million, they stopped fund-raisi fund-raising. shut down their fund-raising operation. it would be a suggestion he knows it's over too. >> vice president joe biden is in the running for secretary of state should hillary clinton win on november 8th. the democratic nominee is considering the former chair of the senate foreign relations committee for that role. according to politico, neither clinton nor her aides have informed biden that he is on their short list. they also report another handful of other names being discussed including former undersecretary of state wendy sherman. former deputy of state bill burns. former under secretary of state and political affairs under george w. bush nick burns and retired admiral james stavridis. >> great names on that list. >> biden -- would biden do that? >> if nothing else, it's a good signal by the clinton campaign to obama folks that we're going to continue the legacy. >> republican nominee donald trump addressed biden's recent remarks that he would like to take trump behind the gym to punish him for remarks that trump made. >> biden said he would like to take me behind the gym. you know what you do with biden? you go like this. he would fall over. tough guy. mr. tough guy. mr. tough guy. a little bit and he's gone. another beauty. can you imagine if i ever made that statement? donald trump is a bully. he threatened vice president biden. donald trump is a bully. can you imagine? he can say it. everyone thought that was a wonderful statement. >> mika? >> he makes a good point. i think if it was the other way around, there would be lots of news analysts going he incited violence. good god gracious be. >> you're doing a donald trump imitation. >> i'm actually imitating some people we know very well. >> it is true. there would be all of the articles about how this sort of suggests a fascism to american politics inciting violence against a sitting vice president and how dare he. this is the low point of american politics. >> isn't it kind of excellent at that moment in the campaign less than two weeks out that suddenly joe biden is at the center of everything? he and donald trump, is he going to be secretary of state? you thought it was over for joe biden and yet here he is again right in the middle of everything ten days out from election day. >> you have two guys. i don't know. you have two 70 year olds saying they want to beat each other up behind a gym. >> you think i'm better than i am? you think you're stronger than me. >> 2016 has come full circle. you know, biden secretary of state issue is an interesting -- if he is indeed on the list, it's an interesting thing to look at. he said he does not want to go back into the next administration. i think he would have to take some time and take a look at this if it was actually real. you guys will remember in 2008 during transition, joe biden's wife had said that she let slip in an interview he was under consideration by obama as secretary of state. he has a big foreign policy portfolio in this administration. he knows all of the leaders in iraq. it's something that he really thrives on. my understanding is that this is indeed the first that biden folks have heard of it and so interesting to see how he responds to questions about it. >> you know what i think? after 40 years on a government salary, joe biden is going to go make a lot of speeches and make himself and his family some money. >> and work on that cancer moon shot. >> and beating up -- >> i think he would take this job in a heartbeat. >> carol lee -- >> and beating up senior citizens behind gymnasiums. how do you juggle all that? picking fights with 70 year olds. >> lamest fight club ever. >> that is pretty lame. >> first rule of geriatric fight club -- >> my. >> thank you both. >> this has been a special morning. >> you're adorable, sam. >> i'll never forget this morning. ever. never. >> still ahead on "morning joe," sean spicer of rnc joins us as does mike murphy and the rage. >> bad on fridays. he shows his fangs and starts to froth at the mouth. f bombs fly out of his mouth. he's like a wolverine. i don't know how they have him here. >> steve kornacki. the rage. rage against the machine. quite a scare last night on mike pence's plane as it goes off the runway at laguardia airport but he and everyone onboard emerged unharmed. he'll join us on the state of the race when "morning joe" comes right back. you workt ge? , i do. u guys are workingn me pretty big stuff over there, right? li new language for crazy-big, chgiacs. well, not me specifically. work on e industri se. so build the worli get it.g machines. you can't talk bee it's sup high-level. you can't talk no, i ac do buthe maches. blink if wt yore doing involves encrypted data transfe wait, what? wowwww.. wow? whatow? there is no wow. i served underpresiden. i foug the taliban. i s ked to form a global coalition that thekn morout islamic ate orsil than do rals, ofhe re. but i believe secretarclinton real uerdshreat at the islamic state pes ani belie shunrstands ho wield arican wer to uimately deat this reat d kp us safe. to uimai'm y clintons reat ani approve is message. to uimai'm y clintons reat therno one surface...ue. one s... ne way of iving on each and evy road. but there one c at canquer them all, thmercedesenz c-class. firiving mod let y stomize the steeri, ift points, ansion t t. fit the mood y're in... and the ro y're . the 20 c-class. lee thc300 for $36a nth at ylolol the rcedesenz dealer. >> you take a look at what's going on where you have pockets of areas of land where you have the inner cities and you have so many things and so many problems and so many horrible, horrible problems. the violence, the death, the lack of education. no jobs. we're going to work with the african-american community and we're going to solve the problem of the inner city. >> joining the table, we have republican strategist nbc analyst and host of radio free gop podcast mike murphy and msnbc anchor and political correspondent steve kornacki and on capitol hill, sean spicer. >> sean, a lot of talk this morning around the table about this race being over. is this race over? >> not at all. we're in it to win it. i think a lot of these polls in the states and nationally are showing the trend going back into donald trump's favor. you look at absentee ballot returns, it's good news for the republicans. not so good for democrats. a lot of key counties where republicans need to do well, our numbers are up in terms of not just ballots requested but ballots returned and key counties democrats need to do well in, they're way down on returns from 2012 in state after state. >> sean, it's willie. as a man that knows the map well and studied the path to victory, are you not concerned as chair that arizona, georgia, and iowa now all appear to be swing states for you? >> i'm glad that iowa is a swing state. it was a state that obama carried twice. you look at the map. you're talking about nevada, pennsylvania, michigan. states that obama carried twice that are in play this cycle. so we've actually expanded the map this cycle versus last cycle. i feel very confident about both arizona and georgia though. >> all right. sean spicer being overly optimistic here? >> sean has the hardest job in american politics right now. he's slugging for the republican team. look, you know, iowa is the bright star. that's one that's moved away. they're going to need a lot more iowas to make this thing happen. while the race has tightened a little, it's gone from upper single digit disaster to a mere six or seven-point drubbing. maybe that trend will continue. i don't see how trump breaks out of the box he's in. he's also the 42% guy and she tends to move between 45 and 48. that looks pretty tough to me. >> so, steve, midweek we had a national poll showing 3%. we had some state polls coming out showing a tightening of the race. you get to the end of the week, doesn't look quite that way. again, this is a day by day thing. your numbers suggest still a long shot for trump and he's, what, 6%, 7% probably down nationally. >> that's what it looks like. six point race. average the polls together the way we do it came to 5.8. call it a six-point race nationally and you're in scenario where you have seven or eight states that you call tossups right now. every single one of them is a must-win state for donald trump. you can start in north carolina. florida. ohio. iowa. nevada. you could put utah in that tossup category. you could put arizona in that tossup category. congressional district up there in maine. he has to run the table and win all of those and if he does that, he has to find one state that right now looks like a blue state and flip it, whether there's in new hampshire or pennsylvania or wisconsin. something that you look at right now and say i'm just not seeing it. you would have to find one of those. >> a new poll shows trump up by five points. 47 to 42. you look at the map and you are right. iowa, you look at iowa and other states that are in play this year that haven't been in play in the past. he's done better in ohio certainly for most of the campaign than a lot of people expected. look at the past couple of days. his campaign has been fought in utah, north carolina, and now arizona today for donald trump. doesn't that suggest that republicans are back on their heels? >> i mean, look, governor pence was in utah to do a fund-raiser for a trump victory to raise money for the entire ticket. look, i get it. everyone is trying to nitpick where he goes. hillary clinton was at an adele concert the other night. senator kaine was at the indians game. at the end of the day, they're going to be in those battleground states remaining 12 days making sure we win. we have to go back to two things. the map has expanded since last time. hillary clinton is on defense. if you look at the number of states, when you talk about maine, that hasn't been in play in years. pennsylvania, ohio, obama carried twice. virginia. all of these states are actually part of the equation this time. some of them further than others. they're all within the margin of error. that's important. the map has expanded. when you go to the actual early vote and absentee ballot request and returns, those are favoring republicans not democrats. again, i think as we enter this final ten days, it's important to look at where the votes are coming from on both sides and right now i think we feel very good about the momentum. last is when you again talk about these polls, it may not be as fast as we would like but in each case the trend is in donald trump's favor. >> all right. sean spicer, thank you so much. greatly appreciate it. and i will second what you have to say which is sean has a pretty tough job. >> what else can he say? it's national news if he admits they're going to lose. >> let me ask you this. we read from peggy noonan earlier today wondering if a sane trump could have done better. one thing sean is saying for republicans like us, we look at iowa. let's say befothat we're not supposed to be up by eight points in iowa. you look at ohio. leading comfortably. mitt was -- there is an opening for the right kind of republican. isn't that one takeaway from this? >> look, if that wave of blowup washington is so strong and it reminds me of when i worked for arnold in california during the recall, that wave is lifting up donald trump who is just a flawed candidate and keeping him at least partially in the race. if you can imagine a trump without all of the trump problems, there was a hunt. the real problem they've got and this is not getting reported enough, is they have a lock on virginia and colorado. that plus the normal democratic states means donald trump not only has to win florida and ohio. he's got to go take a big democraticic state. >> for our party to ever win the white house back again, we have to start winning virginia again and we've got to put colorado in play. >> there was an opportunity a year ago. colorado clinton numbers were bad but not with trump. >> let's talk about the senate quickly. what does this all mean for the republican candidates? are republicans going to lose the senate? >> that's interesting. this missouri poll you just put up. it looks good shape. look down ballot. i see the poll here. republican is up one tied with the democrat running against him. democrats got lucky in a couple states this cycle where they didn't think they would have a shot in the beginning. indiana, missouri, north carolina, a few states democrats thought they had a shot at and if they don't take ohio, for instance, if they win missouri and that bodes well for their chances. the other thing is i hate to think too long-term here. if they get to 50 or 51, have you looked at the map for 2018? it's a blood bath. >> i would rent furniture if i was a democratic in the senate. don't buy. >> i just can't even look at the next ten days. >> it took ten drafts to write a single hillary clinton tweet. perspective for you. it took 12 "morning joe" producers to write this tease. >> it's a good tease. >> do we have 12 -- >> we did focus group it for two years and make sure we did it in such a way that didn't suck all of the life out. >> right. that does happen. we'll go inside the layers of the clinton social media machine when "morning joe" continues. ♪ using 60,000 pnts from my chase i card boht all themework... using 60,000 pnts from my chasewire... and plants needed to give my shop... face... neededno one will forg... see what the per of points can do for your business. learn more at chase.com/ink see what the per of points can do for your business. mthrough dna i found out that i zucccwas only 16% italian he was 34% easte european. so i went onto ancesy, on lrned that one of our ancestors we thought was italian was eastern eupean this is my ancestor who i didn't knoabout. heks a little bit ke me, yes. anceget started for free at discovancery.com story. why don't you let me... and me... help y out? ♪ you're gonna ar what i say... ♪ anne: pal's mmost advanced anneoid. [gasps] this is esome. h ♪ en y're close to the peop you love, does psoriasis eget in the way of a touching moment if you he moderate to severe psoriasis, y can embrace the chch of complely clsk with ltz. taltz is proveto givu a chance at comptely clear skin. withaltz, to 90% ofaties in fact, 4 o of 10ven aced completely clear skin. do not u if you are allergltz. before starting you should be ecked fotuberculosis. taltz may increase you riskf infections and lower your abilityto fight . te your doctor if you are beg treated foan inf or havsyms and lower your abilityto fight . te yor if you have received you a vacce orn to. flammatoowel disease foan inf can happen with ta and lower your abilityto fight . ining worseninofymptoms. rious lergic reacs can occur. now's yohance at coletely cle skin. >> while we're talking polls, polls, polls, polls all over the place. new abc/"washington post" poll shows a tightening and when we're ready to bury donald trump, abc shows him plus six since the 22nd. hillary clinton at 48% down two. donald trump at 44% plus six. i've got to say, abc's tracking poll from earlier this week that showed a 12-point race was absolute nonsense. >> the other thing -- >> the internal polls also of both campaigns suggested that the 12-point spread was nonsense. so when you see donald trump plus six, i'm not trying to explain anything away, at that poll was was an outlier. abc in their tracking poll again shows a four-point race. >> all right. still ahead -- >> throw that one into the fruit salad. mix it up. we're still at, like, 5%, 6%. if you look at trend lines, the trump campaign would see that as a positive. still ahead on "morning joe" -- >> i think the good news is that the debates finally allowed republicans to unite around their candidate. the bad news is it's mike pence. >> that was hillary clinton's backhanded compliment to the gop ticket and its vice presidential nominee. governor pence joins the table straight ahead on "morning joe." red 97! set!ed 97! did you say 97? yes. you know, at remis me of geico's % stomer satisfactionating. lped bgeico's st and friendly claims service. huh... oh yeah, baby. geico's as fasand friendly ait get o! geico. expect great sangs and a whlot more. "you don't want to live withoma" credit sco?" do check myredities!" scor" "credit karm't worry, it fr." one the latest releases by wikileaks reveals the process that goes into the campaign's social media strategy. in april of last year, clinton sent out the following tweet. "every american deserves a fair shot at success. fast food and child care workers shouldn't have to march in streets for living wages. but how much went into that? >> it's a good thought. according to an alleged e-mail chain, up to 12 clinton staffers came up with ten different drafts of that single tweet. here's some of the variations. draft one said every american deserves a fair shot at success with a true living wage. i stand with fast food workers. some felt that was too strong a position to take. in draft two it became this. i applaud fast food workers. and then a different approach going after ceos in draft number three with corporate profits at record highs it's time for a real raise for all working americans. that idea was scrapped. they went back to the original tweet for draft four and draft five they said the version was too long for the character limit. so you get the idea. >> we get the idea. >> trump does the same thing. when he sent that one out calling me little donny d. a failure. seven drafts. it was miniscule. he puts the same thought. >> you wrote most for him. >> this reminded us of what kathleen miller wrote in august of 2015. it's almost like each time clinton tweets, someone fires up an old diesel generator, listens to it churn away for a while, and then when it's ready, turns, cups his hands and shouts, all right. here comes the tweet! which actually i remembered that from about a year ago. she nailed it. so a year later -- >> like peggy noonan saying in her piece about how everything is so overthought. >> she's thorough. >> words matter. >> all right. still ahead, governor mike pence is standing by. his campaign plane last night of course skidded off the runway at laaguardia but made it safely t our set this morning. if he can survive that, he can survive donny deutch. we'll be right back. are you t? plan yr ver tiri retiring rered tiretire are you t? with e*ade. i'in vests and as a vested investor in vests i invest with e*trade, or not in vests. where investors can investigate and invest in ves... sign up attrade.com and get up to six hundred dollars. you're at the top ofour game.ou. at wk or at ay, you're utoppable. thinn thw you off track. ohey, she's cute thinn thnice goiantrack. things going eat for yo you've ene a night t. od dnks, goigo frien. yo yeah, cano ea and call this good nht. waitis that your car yeah, cano ea and call thuh oh.d nht. yeahi saw that coming. say goodbye to her. ou! that will hurt yo bank account. you're looking at around ten grand ifines, legal fees, and increased innce tes. i ho you like eating frozen dis. let's try this a. smt move. beuse buzzed drg is drunk dri. joining us now just hours after his campaign plane experienced a scary landing at new york city's laguardia airport, republican vice presidential nominee governor mike pence of indiana. how are you doing? >> we're great. we're great. >> are you sure? >> what happened? >> we actually had a ground stop in iowa because it was pretty rough weather out this way, but once we got up in the air, approaching new york very low ceiling. and couldn't see the ground much. when we landed, it was obvious i think to everybody on the plane that the pilots were hitting the brake very hard trying to get the plane stopped. we felt it fishtailing a little bit and then it slid to the right. it was about ten seconds of uncertainty. we were all fine. i got to commend the first responders out there at laguardia. they were on the scene before the plane stopped rolling. we thanked the pilots. my son is a marine corps aviator. michael likes to say every landing you walk away from is a successful landing. we're very, very blessed. >> thank you for being here with us. >> thankful that everything is okay. marty st. george with jetblue says everyone always calls laguardia third world airport but if they didn't have this, which you brought up, it wouldn't have stopped. >> i learned a lot last night which is at the end of the runway, the brittle concrete that can stop a plane at 80 miles an hour. you can go online and watch on youtube. incredible the life saving mechanisms they have in place. >> on the plane the mud splashed up on the windows. that was our first confirmation that we were off -- >> not a good sign. >> when we came off the plane to see the crumbled runway and to learn from the first responders that's part of the way they intercept. they also told us the fact that the ground was wet and muddy slowed down the aircraft. i have to tell you the outpouring of concern and e-mails and support for us, it's been very moving to us. we're looking forward to being back on the campaign trail today. pennsylvania and north carolina. >> let's talk about that. pennsylvania, north carolina, arizona. a lot of these different states that are sort of being labeled differently these days. the path seems narrower though according to a lot of polls. how do you all see a path to victory at this point? >> i just think we're going to continue to go out and earn it. i think the american people know this is an election that is as dramatic a choice in a national election as anyone in my lifetime. it's change versus the status quo. the american people, i think, the reason why you see the polls where they are today, i tell people in indianapolis we know a lot about racing. i tell people that we're coming out of the fourth turn here. it's wheel to wheel. we're hammered down. we'll race to the checkered flag and continue to lay out that choice which is that if you want to continue policies of the last 7 1/2 years that stifled american's economy and if you want the kind of ethics that you have seen flowing out of clinton iran corpora incorporated in her years of secretary of state, you can have that but if you want to change the direction of the country and change the direction of our economy and less taxes and less regulation and repeal obamacare and rebuild our military and stand tall in the world again, that's donald trump for president of the united states. >> a lot of people say the race is over. what do you say to them? >> i just was laughing about th this week. i got up, you know, i tell people, sometimes i have to turn on the television with a stick in the morning because i never know quite what i'm going to read. i saw the headlines, the race is over. it's all but done. it's not what i see out there. when you campaign with donald trump, as i did in cleveland over the weekend, you see tens of thousands of people coming out. almost as many people who can't get into the venues as make it into the venues. when you see, as we had this week, 500 and 1,000 people coming out to hear little old me, this is a movement of the american people. and i truly do believe that millions of americans are just longing to see our country change the direction back to a stronger, more prosperous america. so i sense real momentum, but i have sensed real momentum since i joined the ticket. >> john? >> we were talking earlier about this story that came out in bloomberg business week yesterday that got an extraordinary amount of access to the trump/pence campaign. one of the things that has attracted a lot of attention is o"from a senior official who said we have three major voter suppression operations under way and details what the operations are related to african-american voters, women voters and some voters on the left. is that okay for your campaign to be involved in voter suppression. >> number one, i haven't read the article. that's -- that's offensive to me, that kind of language. it's not our operation. donald trump and i want every american who has the opportunity to vote to vote in this election. that's our message. to tell the american people that this country really belongs to them. we can have government as good as our people again, but it's going to take all of us. and you saw donald trump this week in charlotte coming out and saying that people that haven't traditionally voted republican, we have an agenda to bring our cities back, to bring school choice, to bring safety to our streets in our urban areas. this is a message we're sending to everyone, and the mosage to get out and vote and participate. >> the article details what the strategies are. your message to your campaign is if these things are going on within the campaign, they should be stopped? >> right. i have no -- number one, like i said, i haven't read the article. i have never heard anybody in this campaign talk that way. frankly, you know, it was offensive to me to hear that being reported in the news because that's just not the approach donald trump has taken to this campaign. not the approach we're taking. we're reaching out to every american. one of the remarkable things about this campaign is how many independents, you look at the polls, how many independents have been drawn to donald trump's message about breaking gridlock in washington, d.c. how many democrats. i mentioned how proud we are to have support from democrats at the rallies we do. i see hands in the air of people who want torig themselves as members of the democratic party. also, a big part of the message this week, i was out west and stopped in to nevada and colorado and utah. it's also time for republicans to come home. you know, we wept through a 17-way primary, and my message to all of our republican friends and conservative friends out there is it's time to come home. it's time to elect donald trump as president of the united states. it's time to re-elect republican majorities in the house and senate. it's time for republicans to come home and make sure hillary clinton is never elected president of the united states. >> well, there was a moment acouple weeks ago at one of your events where someone in the crowd said i'm ready for a revolution. you quickly said don't say that, which i think was an important moment. someone like nat is responding to the candidate at the top of the ticket saying the election is rigged, putting the media aside, he said the polling is rigged. as the governor of the state of indiana, someone who has oefr seen and run elections state by state, do you believe polling places will be rigged on election day? >> well, i certainly hope, i hope that's not the case. but willie, you and i both know that in our lifetime, there have been many instances of voter fraud. >> some. >> in individual polling places and some jurisdictions. and when donald trump talks about a rigged election, we're talking as much about the documented bias in the national media that seems to be doing half of hillary clinton's work for her every day. >> he has said specifically polling places. >> voter irregularities. the answer to that is citizen participation. one of the things i have said to people is that our elections are administered on a state level and there's ways for citizens to be respectfully involved in insuring the vote. we want a victory on election, but we want a victory for american democracy. >> you're confident voted will counted fairly on election day? >> we need to make sure that is the case. insuring the integrity of the vote is in the interest of every american and we're going to do our part to see to that. >> is there anything your candidate can do to make it easier for republicans to come home? >> i think donald trump has the right message at the recognize time in this country. i think continuing to carry that message -- >> you know what i mean. >> with his unique energy and unique way of doing that -- >> but mike, a lot of people have been allies politically for the last 20 years still are refusing to vote for him. and not only are they saying they're not going to vote for them. they're questioning the integrity of other conservatives who do vote for him. what do you say with ten days to go, and what can donald trump do to move some of those undecideds into the republican column? >> well, number one, i do want to recognize, i mean, how many people were running in the primary? like 150 or 200. i lost count watching from afar. but they say in nascar, rubbing is racing. you're going to bang fenders in these tough primaries and there's tough feelings out there for some people. i think the message that donald trump is delivering, rebuilding our military, of cutting taxes, repealing obamacare, having tougher and smarter trade deals, having a supreme court of the united states that will uphold our constitution, and have appointments to the supreme court like the late antonin scalia. >> you think republicans are going to come home? >> i think they are. everywhere i go, i'm hearing again and again from people that are saying it wasn't my first choice, but i'm there. and i think it's the reason why you see this race is wheel to wheel. it's going to be a sprint to the finish, but i can't wait to get back out on the campaign trail and tell the story of a man who i believe will be the next president of the united states. >> all right. mike pence, thank you so much. >> thank you, governor pence. >> and it's nice to survive donny deutsch when you don't go to him. we're told to wrap up. very sorry. america is better because he didn't ask mike pence a question. listen, thank you so much if being with us. and we're so glad everything is all right for you and your family. >> ahead in our next hour, rock and roll hall of famer david crosby will join us on set, and kristen welker joins us live on michelle obama and hillary clinton's first joint campaign appearance. 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coner them all, five driving modes let you customize e steering, shiftand throad you'ron. to fit th you're ... e 2016 c-class lease thc300 for $9 a month fit th yoat your local welcome back to "morning joe." it's friday, october 28th. 8:00 on the east coast. >> it's almost halloween. what where you going to be? >> i don't know. what you going to be, willie? >> i haven't thought about it yet. this weekend, i'll pull it together. what are you going for? >> i'm going as donny deutsch. syringes everywhere. and a t-shirt that just says "hgh." >> i'm going as a princess. >> ew. >> that doesn't require any dressing up. >> i didn't say it was halloween. i'm going as a princess. >> he has a tutu on right now. >> i'm still thinking about the manscaping thing you brought up, which is really upsetting. >> all right, with us on set, managing editor of bloomberg politics, john heilemann, ad man donny deutsch, and senior political editor and white house correspondent for the "huffington post," sam stein. sam, i think we have done pretty well with the air time. >> this is the worst show that you have ever done. the worst. >> that takes a lot of doing after doing nine and a half years of really bad shows. >> but this is it. >> all right. >> well, welcome back to "morning joe." >> the latest national poll puts hillary clinton ahead. the pew research center finds clinton at 46% with registered voters. donald trump at 40%. gary johnson with 6%, and jill stein at 3%. and donald trump is going to return to arizona for a seventh time this weekend, which according to the arizona republic, is a record for a gop nominee in a state that has voted for the republican in all but one election since 1952. this as both candidates head to iowa tonight. trump in cedar rapids. clinton in des moines. it's a state where trump has been leading. but a new poll shows clinton jumping seven points since last month into a tie. 44% to 44%. gary johnson dropping six points to 4%. a new q poll in georgia also shows a six-point swing in clinton's direction. trump barely ahead, 44% to her 43%. johnson at 8%, in north carolina, quinnipiac's poll has clinton leading by four points. 47% to trump's 43%. according to the latest early voting analysis, over 13.7 million people have already voted nationwide. more than half of which have been cast in 12 battleground states. and the new q poll gives clinton the edge with early voters, ahead of trump by six points in georgia, 34 points in iowa, 28 points in north carolina. >> john heilemann, state of the race. well, let's just talk about at the end of the week. we had polls that have shown 13 points or 12. there's been a fox news poll that has it at three. actually, the pew poll feels about right at six. these three battleground states that have come out, not any good news for donald trump. >> not any good news anywhere for donald trump, i would say. the race was basically over at the beginning of the week, and closer to over now because you're passing each day, and i think -- i don't really love the statistical what the percentage is. i'm a little skeptical about that, but it seems about that -- i mean, does not want to declare the race to be fully and completely over, but she's pretty solidly as a six or seven. if you look at nationally, she's at about six or seven lead, and the battlegrounds states that are tighter, where she's starting to pull ahead, and places like georgia, where it's a statistical dead heat, if we wake up on election day and she's won georgia, she'll be close to 400 electoral votes. >> willie, there are a lot of the swing states are tight. but when the swing states are north carolina, arizona, and georgia, sdaesh. >> which are not really swing states. >> which are not usually swing states. when they are those states, you know you have a republican that is really campaigned back on their heels. >> those states are nonnegotiable for donald trump to win. those are not supposed to be swing states. georgia, you can throw iowa in there which is tight now as well. texas was never, i don't think, ever going to really go democratic this time, but the fact that that's close should be a warning sign as well. so i think that pew poll that shows it at six points nationally captured the average. >> feels ability right. >> probably where the race is. but trump has to lockdown the three states that we just talked about. georgia, arizona, iowa, and then win the honest to goodness swing states which he's not winning those either. if you look at north carolina, obviously, virginia, down double digits. colorado, pennsylvania, you can go all over the map. >> donny, when it's three weeks out, that's one thing. you don't just say it's over when it's three weeks. when it's two weeks it's still not over. now we're ten days out, maybe. ten days out. he's going to have to pick up, you know, five points nationally in ten days. to get those swing states going his way. or people, a lot of people will have to be lying to pollsters which just doesn't happen to that degree. so i'm with john. i just don't say anything is ever over. ever, ever. but at the end of this week, there were some polls out midweek that were good for him in swing states. these are not. >> yeah, first of all, let's talk about the polls that we have to understand that somebody is wrong within the margin of error, if we have 12 points, between 3 and 12, we'll have new rules about polls. >> you look at what happened in the 2012 race. i mean, gallup had romney up. >> yeah, i will say it was interesting. these polls today are a little bit of a difference in the last day or two because to your point, you started to see tightening. i'm curious, the last two days for trump have been the best two days, or the last best two or three days in his campaign in that basically he's been somewhat invisible. we had the obama premiums going up 25%. we have a next level of wikileaks. probably the most severe yet, and i would not be surprised if in another day or two, we don't see the polls tighten a point or two. >> there is, and by the way -- >> natural elasticity that happens. >> people go, oh, he's going to be at 37%. no, there's always this tightening. america is a 50/50 nation usually. so now -- >> if you have watched the polls, when he goes a few days without dropping all over himself, it comes back like that. as you talked all during yesterday, at the end of the day, going back to the battleground states. even if you do the hail mary in ery state, he's at 265, and there's no path without new hampshire. that's not happening. so yes, and i said this the day billy bush thing, i think the election ended that day, but there's no good news. >> let's be clear. there's not any tightening in the polls. >> i'm saying in the next two days. >> just let me finish. in iowa, for instance, iowa, all the traditional battleground states are the states trump has done best. iowa and ohio are the places he's done the best. that's a seven-point jump for her if the q poll is correct, is indoicative of not tightening. >> from last month to this month. >> that's a trend towards her getting -- accelerating her broader lead in the race. >> you could look midweek. there were some monmouth polls out. there were other polls out. there was the fox poll out. i saw cnn all night talking about a tightening race, a tightening race. again, i think, i love the people that say don't look at one poll. you've got to look at a collection of polls. that's why i think these news organizations, and i don't know if we do it or not. i think we do, but everybody is sort of doing the poll of polls. you know, pretty smart thing to do. go ahead. >> no, no, sam is a loud swallower. we have been listening to you drirnging your coffee. >> are you noticing sam is going through something in his life? sam, is there something you want to talk about with everybody? you seem just a little confused, lost. >> are you okay, sam? do you know where you're going? do you like the things your life is showing you? >> what is this show? where are we? >> you just answered yes. >> ask him a question. >> oh, sam. we've upset you. if you listen to trump on the -- >> sam's mom, by the way, is going to kick my ass the next time we see her. >> okay. >> go ahead, sam. >> funny story about that. >> i want to hear the story. >> we do want to hear that. >> i was at a rally, attending a trump rally in springfield, ohio, and talking to a bunch of attendees about what happened potentially on the day after the election. the "new york times" had a big story about rioting in the streets. first, people at the trump rally, kind people. they don't care about rioting. they understand the stakes of the election. they're very invested in it. there's no blood in the streets. but a bunch of people came up and they were like, we see you on "morning joe." it's great, but we're most interested in how your mom feels about the air time joe is giving you. so my mom is sort of a minor celebrity in this drama. >> i love it. >> willie, you were going to ask me something. >> you can just talk if you want to. i was going to say, if you listen to trump on the campaign trail, he shines a light on florida and ohio. we're doing great in ohio. look at florida where it's tight. that's true if you look at the numbers. when you look at everything around it, in a presidential race, you say, florida, ohio, focus on those. but it's the things happening around him in the other states that matter. in north carolina, that it won't matter if he can somehow pull off ohio and florida if he loses all of the other states we have been talking about this morning. >> i don't think people -- i mean, that's the depth of his issue here, which is that even if he got ohio, even if he got florida, even if he got north carolina, somehow salvages arizona, georgia, iowa, nevada, we're going down the list. so long as he wlloses colorado, new hamp shrx, and doesn't pick up the district in maine, he's done. this is how monumental the task is for him. and the polls are one thing. he comes into this final stretch of the campaign, the numbers came in last night. he and his committees have $119 cash on hand. clinton has $162 million cash on hand. that's so much more money that she has to play with. finally, we kind of forget this sometimes, but he doesn't just have to be tight in the polls heading into the election. he probably has to be up a few percentage points owing to the fact he has not invested in a robust ground game operation that she has. and so, you know, you look at some of the numbers of offices that she has opened in arizona, for instance, and even texas. and she dwarfs what he's doing in terms of infrastructure. this task is monumental. it's going to take something intense, national change of focus, and i don't see it happening right now. >> i thought he bounced back. >> you just push the button and he goes. like his mother has anything to complain ubt today. you're exactly right, sam. i want to thank you. i'm serious about that. i want to thank you about what you say about the trump supporters. i read the "new york times," a paper that i read every day, but when i see headlines, trump backers see revolution if clinton wins, it's deeply insulting to people like my brother, people like nicolle's parents. and to the people that you see and the people that most people see that go out to these rallies. yes, there are always bad apples in every crowd, but to suggest they're like these people, the bundies, who where just can't even begin to imagine how any jury on this planet could acquit those people. i'm sure that all of the jurors were talking about they love the constitution. how about the rule of law? there is no such thing at the rule of law i guess in that. it's absolutely staggering to me that the jury acquitted all of those defendants in the case who just basically spit at the rule of law. but anyway, sam, back to your point. >> sure. >> there's doing to be no blood in the streets. it's deeply offensive that the national media is pushing this narrative. it's just, like sarah palin after getting just bashed by the press for months, she was getting 10,000 people at rallies at the end of her campaign. joe biden was getting like 47. and so they had to go through the crowds and find somebody that called her a socialist. and claimed it was the end of american democracy. just stop. >> joe, there are -- >> once again, i agree. >> just stop. just stop. >> joe, i'm not talking to you -- >> just stop insulting trump supporters. >> there are 64% of trump supporters that do believe the election is going to be rigged. that doesn't translate to muskets being taken out of shelves. having said that, though, if you go, that's two thirds of his 40 million. 10 tens and tens of millions of people. >> do you know that over 50% of democrats believed at one point, politico reported, that george w. bush knew about the 9/11 attacks before they happened and was complicit in the attacks on america? >> and? >> we can all come up with -- >> just the simple fact. no, this is a simple fact. >> nobody is going to take up muskets. >> is it beyond the pale, having seen the bad apples, some of the rage. you have talked to the reporters who have been at every one of the rallies and -- let me finish, please. they say they feel it. so no, do i think they're going -- >> they feel it. >> joe, joe -- >> they feel it. sam -- >> is there -- >> yes, there's rage. >> okay. >> there's rage on both sides. >> joe, you're saying rage is equal on both sides? i guess i have been watching something different. >> if you could let me talk. if you talk to reporters who actually dared to cross bernie sanders and the things that were said by bernie sanders sorters who we love and respect bernie, there was rage there. there's rage on both sides, but the national media only sees it through their own goggles. there's only rage on one side all the time and one party that ever believes elections are fixed. forget the fact we have only won two elections, republicans, in 87 years and democrats freaked out and said we fixed both of them. sam, you were there last night. talk about the rage and hatred and the blood in the streets. by the way, sam, for the record, my first campaign slogan "the streets will flow with the blood of the unbelievers." i have a bumper sticker for you. go ahead. >> a winner slogan if there ever was one. >> got 62%. >> it could be just that, i mean, ohio, and people are super nice, but we talked to like, you know, maybe two dozen people about -- we asked them, let's say you wake up november 9th and your guy has lost. what is that day like for you? you know, of course, any reporting is anecdotal, but these people were by and large understanding of how democracy works. respectful of the electoral process. and you know, they do think that there's some tilting on the scales for hillary clinton when it comes to media coverage and so on and so forth. but they said, you know, life goes on. i have other things in my life i have to worry about. jobs, health care, religion, stuff like that. and i recognize that i'm going to have to go back and i'll have to work doubly as hard to elect a republican in 2018, 2020. that's being said, i think it's objectively true that trump has stirred up a lot more animus in ways that aren't traditional of a campaign, but from what i got from my attending this rally in springfield where i sat in the audience, not the press pen. these people understand how this works, and i just don't see how there's going to be blood in the streets. >> still ahead on "morning joe," a guy who gives barnicle a run for his money when it comes to the term legendary. david crosby joins us for his new album and his take on the 2016 race. first, john podesta asked hillary clinton's campaign manager about the private e-mail server. did you have any idea about the depth of this story? we'll talk about the new revelations from the wikileaks hacks. here's bill karins with a check on the forecast. bill. >> getting rid of some of the snow ate least. did you see this yesterday? it was in pennsylvania, in upstate new york. we even had a report of about 1 1/2 inches of snow around the capital district of albany, new york. this is from saratoga springs. some leaves on the trees but no reports of power outages. this morning, snow left over in maine. heavy soaking rain for areas of new england. this area has been in the drought. we picked up an inch of rain throughout new england. we also know the california drought is going on year six, the big soaking rains this morning, very welcome. right now, pushing up into the mountains. the good. another dose of rain for you on sunday. let's take you through the weekend forecast, and the other big story is the warmth. it waw 100 in phoenix yesterday. the latest they have ever recorded in the season a 100-degree day. today, 94. look how warm through the day today, this is saturday, like a repeat. 80s widespread through texas and the south. st. louis add 84. baseball games look really good there. temperatures warm in chicago. look at saturday, high of 73 degrees. d.c. goes from 73 on saturday to sunday's forecast near 80 degrees. so this is incredible warmth lasting a long time here. usually the cold fronts come down and cool us off. we will deal with wet weather on sunday in the west coast to theithe intermountain west. wrigley field, the place to be. tonight's game, windy, 63 degrees. pretty mild for this time of year. saturday, we'll deal with showers but it is warm. sunday, partly cloudy and goo. all in all, a fantastic weekend, and it look like halloween is going to be nice for many of us, also. washington, d.c., get ready for a beautiful warm late fall weekend. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. upade youre atonage.coness proposition 61 is a very, very it is time for theward. pharmaceutical industry to stop the entire nation is looking at pharmacepacalifornia.ry. e... let's go forward together. thank you all very much. there is a lot more insight into the rift inside the clinton campaign over the handling of her private e-mail server and how some in her inner circle were caught off guard by it,kil of e-mails. the latest hacked from the personal account of hillary clinton's campaign manager, john podesta. these e-mails have not been independently authenticated by nbc news. >> the wind up, the deliver a, and now the pitch. >> okay, the day a "new york times" story was published last year exposing hillary clinton's use of the private e-mail account and server and exchange between podesta and future campaign manager robby mook shows they were blindsided. podesta allegedly asked mook, did you have any idea of the depths of this story, to which mook responded, nope, we brought up the existence of e-mails in research this summer, but we're told everything was taken care of. in a separate exchange between clinton ally neera tanden and potesta from july of last year, tanden changes the conversation from upcoming polls saying, do we actually know who told hillary she could use a private e-mail? and has that person been drawn and quartered? like whole thing is bleeping insane, with tanden using an expleti expletive. >> i can guess what that was. i have used it before. >> have you really? >> just to focus on clinton's interview with andrea mitchell in which she said she was sorry for the controversy over the revelations of the server but did not apologize for her decision to use it. tanden allegedly pushed for her to formally apologize. saying, everyone wants her to apologize, and she should. apologies are like her achilles heel. but she didn't seem like a blank in the interview, and she said the word sorry. she will get to a full apology in a few interviews. >> let's talk about -- um, about -- >> look. >> the revelations. you were saying it makes you feel better. >> i remember being absolutely stunned about the private server. i remember the press conference that she had, and even commentators going, well, it must have been secure. there was so much assumption going on here, when it just s m seems like they did something so out of bounds to obviously protect some sort of interest. now, it all seems very clear what was going on. >> and it is good to know that -- >> someone inside -- >> in fact, the people running the campaign. >> people who want her to win, like by the way, me. >> knew it was wrong and were very upset by it. >> very wrong. >> which makes all the hacks on the outside saying there's nothing to see here, move along, for the last year, year and a half and while the -- shut up, yeah, it's just stupid. it's a big deal. and people running her campaign knew it was a big deal. >> they knew it. >> but there's -- for me at least, there's assurance that john podesta, robby mook, of course, nera, all of them straight shooters that saw this and said, what in the world? >> worried. >> it's really great news that she's actually surrounded herself by people -- >> that's the silver lining in this very sleazy story that there's a clinton 2.0 inner circle. the drip, drip, drip. the only good news for hillary clinton is if you're trying to defend this or swerve around it is this is already baked in. people know her as an untrustworthy politician, exclamation point. this is baked in the same way if the next person from trump university comes out. the thing i was curious about yesterday with -- i thought the most extreme thing that happened was the bill clinton inc. thing. john, i'm curious, what i found -- what's the word i'm looking for, confusing about that. it's pay for play. for me, that was pay and another pay, but there was still no play there. the fact that, okay, the people are trying to drum up money for a charity, and oh, by the way, do you want bill to speak at this thing? i wasn't quite sure where that moved the ball along. in other words, it was quid pro quo, but it was scratch my back, now scratch my back again. not i'll scratch your back. what was i missed in that? i'm not defending it. >> one of the biggest problems with the story all along has been, i have always thought that this was a huge political vulnerability for her, the foundation and the questions about where the philanthropic work, the personal profit making, and then public policy. the problem has been that that has been the missing link, right? what you have seen is a lot of skeezy behavior. but not what would be this, quote, smoking gun. if you could demonstrate that policy had changed att the state department, that link is the link that everyone has been looking for, and so far, has been absent. >> coming up on "morning joe" -- >> if people wonder, yes, hillary clinton is my friend. she's been a friend to me and barack andalia and sasha and bill and chelsea have been embracing and supportive from the very day my husband took the oath of office. >> what a difference eight years makes, from rivals to sharing the stage. kristen welker joins us with a live report on where the clinton campaign goes from here after two first ladies campaign together for the first time. y st, en you tell our friendabout your job, malet's play up the digital part. but it's a manufacturing j. yeah, well ge is doing a lot of cool things digitally to help machin communite,j. might wa to at least mention that. i'm building world-changing machines. with my two hands. does that threaten you? no! don't bely. i'm just, uh, gog to go tocho. does that threaten you? with that? yeah we dot have an ax. or a fireplace. good to be prepared. could you cut the bread? 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[indisnct conversion] announcer: a full le measurd in seats starts wi the right on ealy on. car crashes are a leading killer ofhildren 1 to 13. lea howprent deaths and inju by using the right car seatfor e want a great way to help our children thrive? then be sure to vote yes on proposition 55. prop 55 doesn't raise taxes on anyone. instead, it simply maintains the current tax rate on the wealthiest californians to prevent education cuts that would hurt our kids. no wonder prop 55 is endorsed by the california pta, teachers and educators. because all of us want to help our children thrive. it's time to vote yes on proposition 55. coming up on "morning joe" -- >> the relevant question is how do we elect a president of the united states who has the credibility and legitimacy of being elected by the rule of law, by an honest, open election. that's what we're trying to get to. >> former senator bob graham knows plenty about contested elections. the florida democrat was in the thick of the bush/gore recount and joins us with his thoughts on today's fight for florida. we'll be back with more "morning joe." there's no oneoad t there. no one surface... no one way of driving on each and ery ro. but there is one car that , the mercedes-benz c-class. five driving mod let you custizthe steering, shift ints, and suspension to fit the mood you're in. anthe road you're on shiftthe 2016 c-class.sion to fit the mood you're in. lease e c3 for $369 a month at youlocal mercedes-benz dealer. if you havderate to severe plaque psoriasis, troducing otezla (aprelast). isn't it time toet the real youhine through? ezla is not an injection or a cream it's a pill that treatplue psors differently. witha, it's a pill that treatplue % clrer skin is acevab after st 4 mon th reduc redness, thkns, and scinesof pques. and the otlaprescrinin don't take otezlant f if you arellergiconitoring. to a of its ingredients. otezla may increase the risk of desion. tell your ctorif you have a history pression suicidal thoughts, or if these feelings develop. some pple taking otezla reported wght loss. yo doctor should monitor yo weight and may stop treatnt. side effts may include diarrhea, nausupper respiraand headhe.n, telloudoctor aut all the medicines you take, anif you'r pregnant or plning to be. ask yo dermatologist about otezla today. otezla. ow me of you. i'm one unlucky guy. the chance of bei involved in aobbery is 1 in 757. e chances ofei struck lightning... [thunder] oughs] ma p.a.: plasteyour seatbelts announcer: the chaes of beinga, forxpected turbulence. 1 29 millio hecould i gesome peanuts? the chans of being involved in aar crara are f greater than lightning strikes and plane craes and if you are texting ile driving, your risk of crash ineases 23 times. now, may be an unlky guy, but i don't have t part of tstistic, anneithedo you. drive respsibly. hillary clinton wants to raise taxes on small businesses up to 45%. what a difference. you know, what a difference this is. just thinking to myself right now, we should just cancel the election and just give it to trump, right? what are we having it for? her policies are so bad. >> donald trump speaking in ohio last night, and we have yet another new swing state poll out this morning. this one from virginia. hillary clinton leading trump by seven points in the christopher n newport university poll, but trump has closed the gap, up six from last week. trump and clinton will both be in battleground iowa today. joining us from white plains new york, nbc news correspondent kristen welker, covering the clinton campaign. how important does the clinton ex campaign see iowa in the path to victory? >> bottom line, clinton campaign wants to win iowa. they don't necessarily need to win iowa, but if she does win, it would make it nearly impossible for donald trump to win the white house. i have been talking to the clinton campaign about iowa now for months. they say it is their toughest battleground state. the reason why, it has one of the country's largest populations of white working-class voters, noncollege educated voters. all of those voters who typically look to donald trump. and trump has been leading there in the polls, by the way, for months. if you look at the latest poll, the latest quinnipiac poll, which just came out yesterday, it is all tied up in iowa. each candidate getting 44%. the focus today for secretary clinton is going to be on early voting, urging people to get out to vote. we saw that strategy on display yesterday when she appeared for the very first time with first lady michelle obama. they are particularly concerned about voter turnout because you have donald trump calling the election rigged, and also they're concerned that democrats might get complacent. take a listen to what the first lady said yesterday. >> when you hear folks talking about a global conspiracy and saying this election rigged, understand that they're trying to get you to stay home. they are trying to convince you that your vote doesn't matter. just for the record, in this country, the united states of america, the voters decide our elections. they have always decided. voters decide who wins and who loses. period, end of story. >> and all of this comes as we are learning that the clinton team is increasingly looking beyond donald trump. even though this race isn't over yet. the clinton transition team eyeing vice president joe biden for a possible spot as secretary of state. now, i just spoke with a top democratic source who told me the vice president wasn't exp t expected to be in consideration. in fact, he had started to look to his life after the white house. but he wouldn't rule it out if he were to get offered that top job. those are some of the headlines we're eyeing from a very windy runway here in white plains. back to you. >> kristen welker, thank you very much. >> windy and loud. >> yes. >> so to underline that point, what hillary clinton would want, actually, donny, her supporters to see, is this abc poll that shows trump up six points in five days. >> yeah. >> and this virginia poll where trump is still behind but he's up six points. and i mean, the thing that scared me the most, and we're going to talk to like the master of politics in florida in one second here, but what scared me the most was complacency. i didn't mind when people thought i was going to lose because we all fought and we were hungry, but all this talk ten days out. i know liberal bloggers hate hearing the election is not over. i can tell you, hillary clinton doesn't want anybody to think that. >> people are worried, to the point i made earlier. you had the best two or three days the last few days of basically trump disappearing and it was a referendum on hillary as far as wikileaks and as far as obamacare. and these polls move fast. so they are not doing victory laps, nor should they be. >> with us now, and by the way, clinton once again complacency, a headline in the times. it must be true. or the "washington post." with us now, former two-term governor and three-term u.s. senator of florida. he's such a legend, in my state, home state of florida. democrat bob graham. he's also the co-author of the book "america, the owner's manual you can fight city hall and win." he's also, i remember, it's been 21 years later. he's also the only senator -- it was amazing -- he walked over to the house. the little office, and sat down and talked to me. it was like, welcome to washington. >> felt bad for you. >> everybody feels bad for me, but he was doing it because he's nice. senator, what a great honor to have you here. >> thank you very much for being invited back and for the chance to talk about this book, when we started working on it a couple years ago, we didn't anticipate the environment when it came out. >> yeah, we need it. >> a lot of people after this election, whatever the result, are going to ask the question, what in the hell has gone wrong with our country? and how can we begin to take it back? >> and what's the answer to that? >> i think it starts where it began 240 years ago, with the people. our problem is that we haven't been educating americans about their rights as citizens in a democracy since the 1970s. we've got two generations of americans who don't understand the basic principles of democracy. much less how they as a citizen can use their rights and responsibility to make a real difference. that's what this book gives them, a guideline to effective citizenship. >> people feel so disconnected from washington. like it's us and them. and they probably need to get a sense of inspiration that they perhaps can get involved in some way. >> yes, and i would also say, i think politicians need to learn some of these lessons. it's amazing to me there were about 20 people ran for president in both parties. it seems as if the one who was the least political, donald trump, was the one who had listened to the people and had heard their dissatisfaction, their skepticism, cynicism, anger. and built his campaign around that. why weren't the other 19 aware of what was going on? >> what a lot of republicans are sk aing right now, willie. >> and this book, we should point out, this is not like a fluffy memoir. this is a civics book you can read in political science class. it's incredible. what would you tell an ordinary citizen sitting at home who says i have no say in the process. everything is decided in washington. what do you say to them? >> you're absolutely wrong. our government is built around the principle that the people govern, the people make the decision. and the people can lead. this book is filled with case studies of where americans from all backgrounds came together and solved a serious problem. drunk driving in america wasn't solved by government. it was solved by a group of women in sacramento, california, some of whom had lost a child, to a drunk driver. deciding we're going to do more than just grieve. we're going to try to understand why and what can be done about it. today, drunk driving deaths in the united states are down about 50% what they were in the 1980s. >> wow. >> senator, this is a book about utilizing and celebrating democracy. we have one candidate who two thirds of his followers think there's a chance the election is rigged. as somebody who had a very hands-on experience in florida and who has run a state as a governor and has been a senator, how do you respond to those people? because your book is kind of counterintuitive to what they're feeling right now. >> first, this idea that the presidential election is going to be rigged is from somebody who doesn't understand the process, we have an extremely decentralized electoral process in the united states. the 50 states have first-line responsibility. generally, they delegate it to a city or a county to actually administer the election. you would have to have tens of thousands of people collaborating in order to have a successful rigged election. so the people who make that claim, they missed that civic lesson. >> look at our home state. you would have to have 67 supervisors of elections all in on it. you know, it's ironic that we're such a computerized society. what brings me and a lot of people that look at this the most comfort is, we haven't computerized our voting process. which sort of teaches us a lesson. it makes it impossible to rig because it's so spread out. >> and it's very distributed politically. in florida, as you know, joe, we have elected supervisors of election in 67 counties. some are republican, some are democrats. further that would make it difficult, i think impossible, to have a rigged election. but again, coming out of this election, whatever happens, we're going to have some real challenges in this country in reestablishing citizens' confidence in the government and particularly citizens' confidence in themselves and their ability to make a difference. >> and on the board of supervisors of elections is judge stafford's son, david stafford. >> very good to have you on. the book is "america, the owner's manual." senator bob graham, thank so much. up next, the great david crosby. >> yes. >> joins us to talk about his new album and the 2016 election. fore taking his team to state fothe firstime... gilm: go get it, marcus. goett. ...coachilman us his cash rewards credit card from bank ofrica to en 1% cbaba everhe, ery time. ps ke the batting cages. ♪ owd cheers ] 2%ack at grocery stores and w at wlele cbs. and back on gas whh ed hive his playersomething extr the ca rewar cret card fromanof ame. more cash back for the things you buy most. when y're close t the people you love, doessoriasis ever get in the way of a touing moment ifou hmoderate to severe psoriasis, when y're close t the people you love, you can embre ever get in the chance the way of a touing moment of completely clr in with taz. taz is proven give you a chance at completely cle ski the way of a touing moment of completelwithaltz, up to90% s in with taz. had a signifant improvemen of their psoriasis plaques. inact, 4 out of 10 even achieved cplclear in do notse if you are allergic to taltz. before starting youshould be chd taltmainease you risk oinfections and lor your ality toight the te your doctor if yoarbeing eated for an infection or havmptoms. or if you ha receid a vaccine orlan to. flammatory bowel dease n pp with taltz. including worsening of s sptoms. seris allergic reactions can occur. now'your cnce at complely cle sn. these are one of the cool moments. wake up. joining us now, two-time rock and roll hall of famer, founding member of the birds and cross bay, stills, and nash, david crosby. his new album is called "lighthouse" and he's gearing up for a u.s. tour starting next month. right now, he's here with us. >> what a great honor to have you here. >> i'm honored to be here. >> stop it. >> i grew up with you guys. >> favorite band of all time. absolutely. >> the best. >> no. >> i said that about a band last week. >> no, i said that about polly shore's band. >> he did say that. we love you guys. we're all huge fans. i want to talk, though, about your new album because it's exciting. one of the things that drives me crazy about bands is when they go into the studio and they are going to be there for like a year. and they have to were eabout, you know, every time. you recorded this album 12 days. that's crazy. talk about that. >> well, i told mike leak, the guy who produced it, who is a brilliant guy. i said i need two months. he laughed at me. and i said, i have never done one in less. and he said, we can do it in two weeks. i said, not a chance. and we went in the studio and did it in 12 days. >> whoa. >> but we did do one smart thing. we have the songs. we didn't try to write the record in the studio, which is the way you spend the four months. and also, i just can't afford that. wow. you know, too much money. but yeah, we did it in 12 days and then we mixed it in four more. i have never done a record that fast, and the credit goes to mike leak. he's the composer and leader of a band called snarky puppy, that is just terrific. and he's a naturally organized, planned guy. he's always got a path and a course. he did a great job. >> so where do you get your inspiration? after all these years, is it just the love of music? just it's what you do? >> it's usually love. we usually write about love. i do. sometimes something crosses your path and you say, oh, gee, that's not right. then the sort of town crier gig kicks in and you say, america is shooting its own children and we have to write "ohio." >> right. >> you can't do a steady diet of that. our job is to make people boogie or take them on a little emotional voyage. >> speaking of boogying, you said you have something in common with the vice president as far as your approach, something we were talking about. >> don't get him in trouble. >> donald trump at a cross walk. >> you said what? >> i would floor it. >> you and joe biden. >> oh, yeah. joe. yeah, joe and i have been talking about that. it's -- the thing that's really funny is you see people all the time on your show coming on who are -- they have been forced by circumstance to take up that side, right? and they're saying things that are so embarrassing. you can't believe they're saying them with a straight face. and you know it's going to come back to haunt them. >> yeah. >> people that say i don't like him, i don't like what he said, but i'm going to endorse him or i'm going to vote for him. i just -- you can't have it both ways. you're either in or out. >> you know, they don't like hillary. >> right. >> i have wanted for many years for there to be a woman president. i frankly think if you let the women or not let the women, but if you politely ask the women to run the country, they would do a better job. >> i agree. >> they're running the world. >> they should be. >> they're running britain, germany, they may -- >> and germany, hitting it out of the park. i think, you know, my first choice would have been somebody other than hillary. i have met her and talked to her, and she's always thinking something other than what she's saying, but she's an experienced politician. and very smart. >> yeah. >> on the other hand, i look at him being president. i would rather eat a porcupine. >> let's go from that -- i have to ask you a question about your history. your music history. because you look back over your career. i have to ask you, what are you more proud of? what you did with the birds where you guys actually were part of dylan around '65, '66, of actually bringing rock and folk together, which it was mind-blowing at the time. people didn't get it at the time. i remember the story of john lennon going up to you guys and saying, don't worry. they don't get it. but i do. you were ahead of your time. was that a prouder moment or what you did with crosby, stills, nash, and young? >> both. >> can't compare. >> the only thing i can't resist, i have to tell you this quick story. he came to the story where we were rehearsing ctambourine man. he walked in, we were in awe. >> in l.a.? >> yeah. he listened to us play it. you could hear the gears grinding. he went out directly afterwards and got himself an electric amp. he knew it worked, and -- >> wow. that's cool. >> we were in awe of him, but he was paying attention to what was going on with us. >> what's that like for dylan, though, to hear you guys play and then go out -- >> he liked it. >> and transform. >> it inspired him to do "highway 81 "and "blond on blond." >> we love the guy. he's a great poet. in 100 years they're going to look bake and say who was the best? it was either joni or bob. bob is a fantastic poet. joni sang better. so i would give it to joni. which am i more proud of? i'm proud of all that work. the csn stuff, the csn live stuff, the birds. we did good work. i'm really happy about moving forward, though. i have to say, i have written now, i have this album that just dropped. >> lighthouse. >> i have another one on my computer already. i don't understand how that's happening. i'm older than dirt, and how can i possibly be doing -- have this flood of material come to me. >> isn't that great? >> truly great, because the songs are the key to the whole deal. good you have a good song, you have de. if you don't, all the production in the world isn't going to save it. >> also, when i listened to the album, your voice is incredible. how have you taken care of it? >> i haven't. i totally have not. >> that's what surprises me, because you know, we have heard stories about you through the years. >> absolutely. >> he's still alive. he and keith richards are still alive. not only are you alive, your voice, like god has blessed you with an incredible -- >> thank you. >> exactly. >> it's working. and all i can tell you is i'm grateful. i can't assign it to any reason. it's just there. so i figure if they give you the songs and give you the tools, you should be grateful. work hard. >> the new album is "lighthouse." david crosby, thank you so much. what a pleasure to have you on the show on this friday. more on all the today's political news straight ahead with stephanie ruhle. stay with msnbc all day long. st] juscan't wait to get on the road again [ front assist sounds ] [ music sts ] [ gi laugh] ♪ on the again ♪ like a bandpsie weo do theighway ♪ [ beetle horn honks ] no matter whic paat you choos yoget more standard features, for lesshan yoexpected. huy and lease the 2017 passat s for $199 a month. jess: loit's those guys.[mic] shawn: lookt those pearly whitn [music] bu whoa, cute! shawn: shut-up. ss: are you go to drive? shawn: i'm ne. [music] [police ren] ss: w many did you have? shawn: i should be fine. jess: you should be? officer: sir, go ahead and ep out of the vehicle for me. shawn: yes, sir. bu e , buddy. lk! toy, sha's got aring, we'llee h it es. , it turnsutuzzed driving d druniving, the e same thing a it costs around $10,000. , itso not wortht. driving d druniving, i waed to know who am i did my ancesydna d where i came from. and i codn't wait to get my pie chart. the most shocking result w that i'm 26% native american. is what m made of,ow this th iwhemyestors ce . and i absolutelyant kno it's opened up a whole new rld for me diover the sry onlyour dna can . der your kit now a ancestrydna.co it's opened up a whole new rld for me good morning. happy friday. i'm stephanie ruhle. we have breaking news overnight. off the runway. governor mike pence's plane in a hard landing. >> oh, my god. >> it's a 737 that ran off the runway. >> skidding. that's right, skidding off the tarmac. tearing up the ground. mike pence speaking out to nbc this morning. >> we felt i think if fish tailing a little bit, and then it slid to the right. it was about ten seconds of uncertainty. >> also breaking. joe won't go. nbc confirming hillary clinton is considering keeping joe biden on as secretary of state while donald trump on offense, pounding clinton over her foundation. >> mr. band called the arrangement

Transcripts For MSNBCW Morning Joe 20180109

he would argue ten sunny skies a bit better. >> so you stayed up for the whole game? >> i did, yeah, believe it or fought. they don't make it to the finals every year. there was this big thing. i went to atlanta. benefit mayer went to the game. there was a lot of excitement being in atlanta t. home crowd. >> you guy versus a great team. i can't believes i am sure you are with me. i can't believe nick saban pulled out one of their biggest players, 25 and 2 record and at halftime, you know what, i'm going with a freshman kid from hawaii that's never taken a snap this season. >> what was beautiful about the game is the future for both these programs looks very exciting. hertz is a sophomore. you got the freshman that started in the second half, jay from from georgia. he's a true freshman. i think safe to say they will have other programs. >> jay fromme from georgia. here's a kid one of the extraordinary comebacks in history. i can't believe georgia was walking through the fourth quarter, he missed a couple passes he would have made last week. it has to be exhausting for an 18-year-old kid to play in i got to say two of the best football teams. >> two pressure cookers. >> two of the greatest football teams i seen in my life. this past week. georgia played in both of them. >> very composed to the future to the end remember a bright future for those guys. >> i fell asleep when i thought it was over for alabama. what happened? >> the nfl falcons game. we don't do that anymore. >> i get so many calls at the beginning of the fourth quarter from atlanta falcon fans that know i suffer. can you believe it? >> i learned my lessson not to do that until the game is over. >> especially if you are from atlanta. you'd never say that i say that as an atlanta native. >> where is the roll tide gear in. >> this is sort of roll tide. >> animal hair. >> for me, a college football fan. alabama has won a few. i'm not as excited as the first two or three. i'm serious. i was so excited. the thing steve ratner that has i'm most obsessed with about the alabama football program, because i'm not really obsessed with the xs and os anymore, irhave other things to worry about, nick saban, last night said it was the happiest dave of his life. that's the only time he's expressed happiness at the end of a game. nick saban is a great -- because it's getting to the top is one thing. staying at the top in such a competitive field is unheard of. that's why nobody has gone what nick saban has done before. but it's his hatred of losing that drives him more. he doesn't wake up at 2:00 in the morning going oh, boy, it would be great if i won a national championship? it's ki fought fail. it's pretty incredible. again just that drive. >> the drive is extraordinary, obviously, this season, in particular, it looked for a while they were going to be out of it. now they have come back and won the big one, yeah, hats off for somebody who believes in winning. >> quite run. okay. as can you see. >> i got a question. >> alex. >> the football game? >> getting the news now. >> i don't watch the football game. i'm kur uscurious was mika was cooking the pick or cooking with the pig? >> that's just my little pig. that's a christmas gift. but you remember yesterday in the show, richard gave us his recipe book. >> so i thought i would give it a little play. we cooked up something good. not the pig. i love her, she's adorable. >> it's interesting, so we get a lot of, a picture, mika put it up on the instagram account. oh, it's so cute. one guy goes, dude, that is the ugliest dog i have ever seen. >> oh. >> in thing is hilarious. >> not his best angle. >> she's a jerk. i love her. she has quite a personality. with us as you can see, we have former treasury official economic analyst seve ratner, commentary magazine editor noah rothman, chair of african men studies at princeton university always speechless at us, eddie greyhound, jr. and associate editor for the washington post eugene robinson. >> hi, mika. roll tide i guess, joe. >> did you stay up? >> you know, nick saban, those alabama teams in the first half, theyed good but not great. he se a second-half keep. i always said that. >> i tell my son or did started a couple years ago, you can't pay attention to the first half, that's him setting it up. but never like what happened last night. >> wow. >> he's never gone, you know, i will bench my star and bring in this 18-year-old kid. >> incredible. >> and the kid looked like a freshman at times and other times just so poised. >> then at the end of the game, he sat there and calmly thanked everybody. >> before we leave alabama. i have a present for you. >> oh, good. >> the other event. it's a doug jones poster. >> oh. >> moore and doug jones in selma, alabama office over the break, i saw this and thought it would be great on your wall. >> i want it. thank you very much. >> 'bamma has had a good month. >> the great state of alabama. i'm taking to alabama. i am. it's good. >> it's about time. >> it's taken a while. all right, let's get to the news, there are plenty of questions over president trump's governing ability. he is comfortable clearly on the cane trail. did you see him at the game last fight? >> i did. >> the president hit the road in nashville yesterday doing what he does best, promoting his agenda and of course, himself. he spoke at the farm bureau's 99th annual gathering. the first president in a quarter of a century to address the convention. trump remained voters about his 2016 election victory and the recently passed tax bill on capitol hill. >> every democrat in the house and every democrat in the senate voted against tax cuts for the american farmer and for the american worker. but republicans came together and delivered his toreing relief for our farmers and our middle class f. the democrats ever had the chance the first thing they would do is get rid of it and raise up your faction tax, sometimes by 40, 50, 60% higher than you are paying right now. we're streamlining regulations that have blocked cutting-edge biotechnology, setting free our farmer's to innovate, thrive and to grow. oh, are you happy you voted for me! you are so lucky that i gave you that privilege. the other choice wasn't going to work out too well for the farmers or the miners or anybody else. i will sign two presidential orders to provide broader and faster and better internet coverage. make sure you look upiate realdonald trump. i have a feeling you get that anyway, actually. it's our only way around the media. fake media. it didn't turn out to be. there is no way to 270 and it wasn't, we got 306 or 304. there was no way to 2 seven. we ended up at 304 after two were taken away from us. we ended up having 304 you'll explain that to me some day. >> so gene i remember about a month or so after donald trump's election, inauguration, you actually had newspapers and columnists surprised that donald trump would still be bragging a month into it about hit electoral win and saying false things and showing people the maps. this victory. so here we are the i know. >> almost a year later and he's talking about his electoral college win. i just, for some reason this time bruce springsteen song "glory days" i'm reminded of the guy talking about his high school picture. >> exactly. >> here we, are he's in the middle of, you know, crisis after crisis and he's still talking about beating hillary clinton. >> he made that touchdown throwing in high school. he will never let anybody forget about it. yes, he won an electoral college victory. he still talks about it more than a year after the election. it's incredible, but it z does give an idea of the more we learn again about the loop that plays inside donald trump's head, the more kind of concern we get about that. because he talks about the same stuff over and over again. that's one of the things he talks about. >> noah, he certainly differently in the confines yesterday, he certainly had a receptive audience there among farmers who voted for him last time. if he runs again, will most likely vote for him next time t. question is, how does let move beyond 37, 38%? how does he start expanding this base or at least stwhoop appears to be coming in 20 -- at least stop what appears to be coming in 2018. >> the republican party today is a rural party. they understand i think that it's the suburbs that are going to deliver what looks to be now like a big blue wave. it ain't going to happen between now and november. that is what is in the card. yesterday, we had foreign affairs committee chairman ed royce retire. 13 timer, southern california, orange county, sort of the heartland of the republican party and that is a seat that's probably gone. republicans will have to defend a lot of suffer. they have a triage resource, that's one where they probably can't afford to waste a lot of money. there will be a lot of seats like that. the republican party will be handed a suburban defeat to the extent that they have to think of it as an existential crisis t. party can't exist as a rural party afraid of the coast and a budding and urban area. it won't be sustainable. >> the president may be basking in his electoral victory. noah mentioned, house foreign affairs chairman republican ed royce of california is not sooebl seeking the re-election. he joins a growing list of republicans who have decided to not run in this year's mid-terms. royce's seat was considerle vulnerable after hillary clinton won his district by nine points in 2016 after news of royce's retirement t. cooked political report shifted the race from lean republican to lean democrat. royce will be the eighth house republican committee chair to leave congress during of after this term. while some like royce terms are limited from keeping their gavels, others include -- that's quite a list. >>s the a list and noah even in the best of years when president's approval ratings are around 50%, the party in power gets walloped. now donald trump with historic low number, certainly for the first year. how bad is this going to be in we continue on this trajectory? >> my predictions are as good as the paper they're written on, which is to say they're not written on paper, will you never find it. it doesn't look like it's any good. eseen in specials in the off years, last november, every democrat that can vote is coming out. republicans afternoon. republicans are staying home. there is this talking point on the reid right on the republican stalwarts that said the committee chairman are limited. they want to get out of there, they don't want to be here. that's nonsense, the bottom line is no one wants to be in the majority. >> i think there is a total of 19 republicans who said they will not run compared to only seven democrats have said that. >> and if you look again, what noah said, eddie, if you look at where republicans are under performing, it's in a lot of these areas where people are retiring and it used to be that republicans would when by winning the suburbs and win by winning the rural areas, but they have, especially over the past year in the age of trump. now donald trump has taken over the republican party him at least over the past, you have been obliterated in suburbs. >> i think there is a general sense the two-party system is broken. the republican party is broken. the folks want their lives fundamentally transformed by the politicians that represent them. i think every politician across the board should be concerned even the democrats as we anticipate the blue wave as it's called. i also want to know, is this a part of the frustration, you were on the hymn, of the difficulty of governing in this moment? some people just don't want to put up with the nonsense and just retire? >> if i were there, i wouldn't want to put up with people asking me, congressman, today you cured cancer, you've scaled the most dangerous cliff inside of mount everest and you broke the record for the one mime. tell us about donald trump's sweep. wherever ed royce goes, he's not talking about pakistan, he's trying to talk about pakistan or iran, if he campaigns, it's going to be all about donald trump. which what democrats had to deal with in 1994 with bill:what republicans had to deal with in 2006 with george w. bush again, gene, i think it's going to be far more difficult with donald trump because he has historically low numbers, but if you look forward, you see again we're getting into this pattern of a split government. >> yeah. >> where i could see, so donald trump wins the electoral college in 2016 democrats win huge in 2018. they tack too far left or they immediately come in talking about impeachment and donald trump is. >> yeah. >> i'm not saying this is going to happen. >> yeah. >> if you take the pattern going back to 2004, this is what seems to happen every two years and donald trump is re-elected. we are getting into this repeating cycle. >> yeah. we are. the asterisk here is that donald trump doesn't necessarily follow, you know, established patterns. he's not your usual republican president, but your general point is right. we do have this sort of back and forth and some people say, well, you know, it's overreach. one party overreaches and then there is a correction. i actually don't see it that way. i think there is a misalignment. i think the parties are fought aligned with where the country is. and where people are. and it's, the political system is not responsive enough. >> that's such an important point that both sides, the base of both sides. >> they are. >> especially the people that give money to candidates that run for president especially on both sides are so much more extreme than 70% of americans. so it's one bad choice followed by another bad choice to offlet the bad choice you had to make two years ago and it just keeps repeating itself. unfortunately, it seems like our system is only capable, we hear, of producing presidents from two parties that are -- >> out of touch. >> so out of touch. >> and our entire political system i think continues to think of a sort of axis of from liberal to conservative that's been around for a while that we all have in our heads. you know, we know the republican party is corn servetive. these are conservative policies the democratic party is liberal and it leads to these specific policies, so i think it's not so much the basis going too far one direction or the other direction. it's just that the access now goes in a different direction. i think that's one thing that allowed somebody like donald trump to win. donald trump was not espousing traditional conservative policies when he ran. he was talking about protectionism and trade, about at the beginning, universal health care. he certainly was talking about keeping entitlements. that's not what republicans are generally sound like and you know in that sense, conversely, i think there might be an opening for a democrat who doesn't sound like a traditional democrat. but until we get the axis right and figure it out, we have this sort of back and forth i think. >> just on the democratic side, i think you have a slightly different dynamic which is that obviously hillary clinton lost, so now there is an enormous amount of pressure that say she lost because she was too close to the center. i think the momentum at the moment with the democratic party is torn. >> do you think she lost because she was too -- >> i'm not saying, i don't. >> i understand that there are really rich guys that fund democratic candidates and rich women that fund democratic candidates running for president that think that hillary's problem was she was too cent ricentrist do you take them seriously? >> i don't think they're one part, joe. >> better way for me to state the question. do you think that's what the democratic party's rob was in 2016, that they were too centrist? no, i don't. i hopefully hope we remain in a centrist position. i think those that ahad vo advor sanders, if we had done that, we would have won. it's a counter factual. >> i don't think it has to do with ideology so much. i don't think it has to do with ideology. i saw donald trump walk on the football field last night. i wasn't particular losed with it. i turned no mika, look at that when he walks out like that i remember why he won. i remember why we were saying uh-o, the last month of the campaign, because the democratic party is so condevending and 90% of the people in the stands have grown up watching tv shows and listening to the democratic candidates being what they consider to be condescending to them. i didn't like it. mika said it put me in the bad mood seeing donald trump on the football field for the first quarter. the democrats have to figure out how to win some rural vote, again. again, you look, eddie, at the map of where democrats won, where hillary clinton won, they're along the coastlines. they're confined to urban areas. you got to figure out how to move beyond. that maybe they will in '18? they certainly have some strong candidates running for congress. >> absolutely. i know we have to go to break. i think it's important. i don't think it's about ideology, at the heart of it. every day ordinary people made the point because the democrats had not changed their fundamental sessions. it was a judgment about the quality of their lives t. quality of their lives simply have not improved. they were still catching hell t. democrats said they were in some way representing them. republicans said that they could effect their lives. nobody, the rich people were getting richer. every day ordinary people were catching up. >> i got to say how laughable before we go to break that donald trump actually convinced a lot of people that would normally vote for democrats. i understand the rich are getting richer the poor rer getting poorer. this is a scam job. wall street insiders, et cetera, et set remarks you look at health care, tax policy, it is the opposite of what he said he was going to do last year. >> all i'm trying to do is report. we can debase. i'm saying this is what's going on in the democratic party. but to my point, if the democrats were to nominate somebody like bernie sanders next time, it going to move beyond the coast? >> no. >> oh my god, no. >> no, we're not there yet. >> steve just reports, you just decide. >> still ahead on "morning joe" the growing calls for oprah to run for president against donald trump in 2020 and why ivanka trump may even be excited by that idea. >> i didn't get that, mika. >> we'll explain that. or not. plus the president has plenty to say about the soaring stockmarket. what's really behind the numbers? steve ratner has a fact check. let's go to bill kierans on the forecast. >> bill, it warmed up a bit. >> it took 347 hours for central park to go above freezing since christmas. we finally did it last night. our attention turns to california, our fears are coming through the heavy rest yain rain is focused over where the thomas fire was. flash flood, 600 people under mandatory evacuation of the mudslides. between santa barbara ojai, and you can see the heavy rain. this is like a thunderstorm band about to go over the top. it looks like a moon landscape. there is no vegetation to hold the mud and debris in place. this is bad news, as joe was mentioning, we finally warmed up a little bit. it's amazing how 33 degrees can be in d.c. and new york. today we're heading up into the 40s, yes, it will feel warm and balmy compared to how it normally has been late in the last two weeks. 39 in chicago. there is a lot of fog around tennessee, watch auto for fire and storms. beautiful weather from texas to colorado. temperatures are in the 60. that's your january thaw. it looks nice, new york city 41. that's as good as the number we will do. friday and saturday, we could hit the 50. you are watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. whoooo. going somewhere? here's some advice. tripadvisor now searches more... ...than 200 booking sites - to find the hotel you want and save you up to 30%. trust this bird's words. tripadvisor. you or joints. something for your heart... but do you take something for your brain. with an ingredient originally found in jellyfish, prevagen is the number one selling brain-health supplement in drug stores nationwide. prevagen. the name to remember. when you have something you love, ♪ you want to protect it. at legalzoom, our network of attorneys can help you every step of the way. with an estate plan including wills or a living trust that grows along with you and your family. legalzoom. where life meets legal. but through goodt times and bad at t. rowe price we've helped our investors stay confident for over 80 years. call us or your advisor. t. rowe price. invest with confidence. . >> the american dream is dead. >> maintain hope for a brighter morning. >> when mexico sends its people, they're not sending their best. >> any culture, geography, race, relidgeen. >> they're bringing drug, crime, they're rapists. >> they are the women whose names we'll never know. >> we have losers. losers. >> they are domestic workers. and farm workers. >> dumping for everybody else's problems. >> they're a part of the world of tech and politics and business. >> they're laughing at us at our stupidity. >> there are athletes in the olympics and there are soldiers in the military. >> i'm really rich. >> i want all the girls watching here and now to know -- >> thank you, darling. >> that a new day is on the horizon. >> i'm proud of my network. i've done an amazing job. >> and when that new day finally dawns. >> i'm not doing that to brag, because you know what, i don't have to brag. >> take to us the time when nobody ever has to say, me too. again. >> okay. that is what the campaign ad might look like following her rousing golden globes speech on sunday fit. there has been growing speculation that oprah rin free will run for presidency in 2020. steadman graham told the l.a. times on sunday, quote, it's up to the people and she would absolutely do it. but a person in the know tells nbc news she has no intention of running for president. some democrats are excited at the prospect of an oprah 2020 ticket. former iowa state director brad earnedson tweeted at winfrey to call him and former obama administration adviser tina chen called oprah an amazing leader. but democrats were not the only ones blown away by opractice's golden globes speech, ivanka trump commented last night on her remarks, just saw oprah's empowering and inspiring speech at last night's golden globes, let's all come together, women and men, and say times up. >> one person that's come together is john fedoris, you are a patriot. seems to be excited about the oprah booming. >> if you take a look at today's fork post. he has a great editorial. i called it. and he did and this is serious. this isn't some sort of publicity play. she real limits to do this him i think she is probably right. democrats need to decide whether or not they want their own donald trump and it seems like they really do. i can't imagine why. she gave a very good speech,py performance artists bore me. she has demonstrated no capacity to govern. she has very little policy knowledge as far as we understand it. i think somebody should be asking those questions if they are serious about having this person soak up 30% of the electorate and push out all these people who we thought were rising stars who apparently don't have the stature we thought they did. >> you sound like somebody that watched a celebrity come in and 16 republicans. >> yes. >> suck up the oxygen. >> donald trump managed to secure his 30% of the electorate and slugged it out to may and managed to win the nomination. it could happen again, yesterday who disappeared, evaporated kirsten jill brand, cory booker, elizabeth warren, andrew cuomo. >> what do you mean they disappeared? >> all of a sudden yes, the euphoria of an oprah candidacy could take the national consciousness. >> i got an enormous number of calls from democratic friends, do you think oprah could do it. how would this work, this and that? i think what it represents is the fact there is no natural moment of the democratic party and democrats look around seeing 20 people all thinking they will be president, nobody really excited about. >> i will add one ting that montage we saw there, during the last 84, i was havingen existential crisis. because the republican crisis was down on the future of america. contrast so stark with the democratic national convention, a staged love affair, military brarks flags all over the place, model and patriotism i gravitate toward as a conservative. >> i absolutely loved, i not just like you the democratic national convention hit all the notes. >> i like that message, contev servetives liked -- o conservatives leaked that message. i think it's continuity. >> i think it's inteet sweet of you to be worried about cyr sten jill brand and cuomo. i think what makes her a real potential part of this conversation eddie i'll ask you, i think that she connects with people across america in the way no democrat on the forefront, no democrat you might have named you think has been pushed aside unfairly, because you know they'd lose, no democrat can connect like oprah. and to the very part of this country that feels overlooked by the left. >> one of the things about president trump running for the presidency is he was in folks' homes regularly. there was this connection he had through the reality television show he has had. oprah has been in folks' foams e homes for a while and has cut through therapeutic space to give voice to what's deep inside, their problems deep inside. but i want to say this, this is not what the d most needs, our democracy is in trouble. and the idea of a celebrity, which is really the kind of logical extension of name recognition, politics is entertainment. has really been a part of the reason why we're in such trouble. we need at this point not someone who will tell us, who will give voice no our ideals in the way that she did, that's great. we need someone to enact it. to move through the mechanisms of government to think about and help us rebuild our institutions, because they're crumbling right in front of us. >> that's the part to be proved. >> i could not agree more. this isn't about oprah or tom hanks or people going out there. but it is how long is this going to take us to understand that we just can't say we will get out somebody. think of the last three presidents, george w. bush, barack obowl, now donald trump. all very different men. all very different policies, all very different skill sets. they all loathed washington. none of them really liked being there. and didn't make much of a secret about it and gene back if 1999, i had a neurosurgeon operate on my back, open it up, said before, you know, three, four things could happen, three of them are really bad. i just have to tell you that. i was glad i was having one of the best neurosurgeons operating on mying ba. i would guess, i have no idea, i would guess extraordinarily hard to become a neurosurgeon and it's hard to become a great neurosurgeon. thank you, but why do americans, i mean, americans wouldn't even i just don't understand why americans think that they can go to the neurosurgeon like they want the best neurosurgeon. they don't care whether they like him. they want the best neurosurgeon to operate on their back. hell they want the best dentist if they get a tooth pulled. they don't go you know what, he's not a dentist. but i like him. i kind of connect with him. so i'm going to let him do a root canal tonight. just for the hell -- i like this buy the. that's how we have been approaching governing and as hard as being a neurosurgeon and a dentist is and a plummer, as hard as being everything is. it's pretty dam hard to run the most consequential, frustrating, government on the face of the earth and the greatest government on the face of the earth. i want to know when americans will grow up and understand that they need to elect people who actually know how washington works and know how to make their lives better. because i'm sick and tired of this. we will get outside and say, hey, walk, look where it's led us over the past 17 years. look where we are with donald trump. >> mm-hmm. look, joe, if problem is that those people -- the problem is that those people who are experts who know how washington works, who know how things happen have been in washington for a long time. our thanks in no small measure to republican party rhetoric, but also you could argue the democrats as well, washington has been demonized. washington has been sort of pigeon-holed as everything, where nothing good happens and a place of incompetence and a place of bureaucracy and as a result, that hurts you. >> that taints you. >> that expertise that you got in washington. so, you know, look, who knows if oprah winfrey really wants to run for president and whether she'll really do it or fought. i got to say, that speech the other night, i mean, that was something else. >> oh, yeah, sure. >> that was something else. and that's number one. number two, i will just point out that she has been underestimated at every point during her career. she has never been good on television. you will do a syndicated show. that's crazy. you will do a network, that's crazy, so i am not going to underestimate her. i'm not going to do it. >> but, so much of what you have just said could have been said about donald trump two years ago. always underestimated. he had mad political skills on bizarre level that few of us understood at the time. he knew how to connect with people and look where we are. but just one other point just to add a couple names it to. now i will offend everybody here, that's fine. but, jeb bush, jeb bush, not the warmest guy in the world. he's odd. george one. was a lot warmer than jeb was, jeb is the best per governor and probably the best governing force i've ever come across in my life, extraordinary. he was an extraordinary leader, even if you didn't like his ideology, extraordinary leader. all the oxygen was sucked. we know he's a bad candidate. well, he was a great governor and he would have been a great president. mitt romney, listen, i know people don't like -- mitt romney would have been a great president. i think romney would have been a great president. you go back to barack obama 2008, we said it here, after just about every other debate the two best people on the debate stage weren't hillary and obama. but that's all everybody is talking about. it was chris dodd and joe biden. those guys were one or two or 3%, nobody wanted to pay attention to them. they were boring, creatures of walk. they both would have been pretty dam good presidents. there are so many great things personally about barack obama, even though his, so many of his policies drive me crazy. but barack obama wasn't in my opinion to be a president. he was as i said a glorified state senator. if barack obama stayed in senate and learned the frustrations of walk, he would have been a much better are the in my opinion. i was too harsh on marco rubio. the same thing with marco rubio, if marco rubio i know a lot of rubio people hate me because i was so hard on marco rubio. if he runs in 2020, yes, sir what, marco has been in walk. mashco understands the frustrationings of washington. he is not doing what barack obama and so many are doing, i'm getting elected to senate. i'm running for president of the united states. it's hard where george bush said in the debate where he couldn't complete a sentence, it's hard. >> something that may be contributing to america's political dysfunction the notion of the things we talk about on a daily basis are cultural issue, not politics, not something a politician can address or washington can address, when we elevate these cultural avatars, they're not relatable. >> make politics boring again. i remember david stafford, a former chief of staff in congress along with bart and rachel and then it was david, david and i were driving over o to. what and mississippi post-katrina and we were just dumb founded by the inadequate response on the federal and state level. david and i were conservative republicans, socially conservative, economically conservative. david as he saw the message, he said to me, you know what's got us here, he said when people elect a governor, they aren't electing somebody to govern us. they have boxes to check. are they pro choice? are they pro-life? are they pro gun? check. it's those cultural issues that people obsess over and as david said at the end of the day, occupy about 1% of your time in office. everybody talked about abortion on the campaign trail. i don't really remember voting in the thousands and thousands of votes i took over four terms, i don't really remember voting on abortion or guns, maybe once or twice on key issues, but you are right, that's if obsession, that's why we like people over matched by the job. >> let's just play this out and sigh wams. coming up, a break through on the korean peninsula the north agrees to send a delegation to next month's winter olympics in the south. what this means for the nuclear threat and diplomatic relations between walk and seoul. "morning joe" is coming right back. fifteen minutes could save you fifteen percent or more on car insurance. . high ranking north and south korean officials sat down for talks along the border. south korea says north korea has officially accepted seoul's request that the north send a delegation of high level officials an athletes to the olympic games, which begin one month from today in pyongyang. easing military tensions and families separated by the korean war were discussed. they have agreed to open a hotline, something initiated by the north. joining us now former nato allied supreme commander. retired four star navy admiral james stavretis. he's an analyst for msnbc and nbc. also with us gordan chang. good to have you both with us. >> admiral, is this maybe a bit of good news we've been looking for? >> i think, joe, it's a sliver. one swallow flying does not a spring make, but life is kind of compared to what? and compared to another hydrogen bomb going off over the pacific somewhere which is kind of the logical next step in the arms testing progression, yeah, this is good. i think we'll have a hiatus between now and the olympics but the hard stuff will come after. the question is can we build on this? let's hope so. i would say there's still a significant 10% kind of chance of a war on the korean peninsula, but compared to where we were a week ago, this is better. >> gordan, what's your take on this? >> yeah. a sliver is a good word. the thing i'm concerned about is we have not seen a fundamental change in the outlook of kim jong-un. for instance, during his new year's address, he actually talked about how sanctions were hurting him. of course he wants to come to south korea and get sanctions relief. the other thing that's important is this is stage three in a four-stage process we've seen from the kim regime for about seven decades. first, you refuse to talk to south korea. then you make a bold overture. then you demand concessions. that's where we are right now. they're asking for stuff, and if you don't get what you want, throw a tantrum. at this particular time, yeah, it is better that they're talking to each other than killing each other. >> so what's the play? >> well -- >> is it for donald trump to once again play bad cop? >> what he's done is con strstrd both koreas. he has u.s. ones and he's bolstered them. he told the south korean president you can't do things. in other words, giving money to north korea, because it will bust you in sanctions. that's the same thing that president obama said to moon when moon took office last may. when moon wanted to give the moon to the north koreans, and so obama said no, you can't do that. trump is doing the same thing. >> is that the right goal? >> it is. at this particular time they're very close to being able to put a nuke into any american city that they choose with a missile. so yeah, we have to restrict the flow of money going into north korea. >> gene robinson. >> admiral, right now north korea has nuclear weapons including perhaps a rudimentary hydrogen bomb and pretty sophisticated missiles. is there any prospect that it will change? in other words, will they continue to be a nuclear power, and is that something that the united states is going to have to accept whether we like it or not? >> yeah. gene, in the end, this is the gut question in the negotiations. a good way to think of this is kind of like two streams of threat that are closing. one is the delivery vehicle, hardening miniaturizing the missile side of this thing, and the other is the nuclear weapon, the hydrogen bomb. hasn't been tested open area. it's like in ghost busters, you don't want the streams to cross, and they are going to cross sometime in the next 12 months, 18 months. this program has accelerated enormously. our intelligence community missed that. that's the gut question, can we live with it? there's still a moment to stop this before the streams cross. i think if we can do that, then you could conceive of a situation where we could use a deterrent regime, freeze their program, reduce exercises in the south. you could kind of construct a rude negotiation. it's going to be very tough to put all this together. >> but there's not a chance that they're actually going to give up their nuclear weapons, is there? >> i do not think so. i think kim jong-un has gone to school watching what happened to gaddafi and saddam hussein. the message from that course, dictator 101 is don't give up your weapons of mass destruction. i don't think we will in the end. we're going to have to deter him and that is going to be very challenging to construct a freeze that we can live with, because the military option here is unimaginably bad, two to four million dead on the korean peninsula. it's a bad set of cards. >> it sounds like you think however they got there, the trump administration is actually getting to a better place and done what they should do and there may be a way to play this with a bad cop saying if you don't do this, i'm going to blow the world up, versus the good cop. is that a fair assess. your mind, and also to the admiral, how do you think the movie ends? is there a way to denuclearize or are we playing containment? >> if we really wanted to exercise political will, i think we could change a lot of things. people say china will never do this. north korea won't do that. that's true under the current inventive structure, but president trump can change that. for instance, you were in the treasury. we could declare bank of china to be a primary money laundering concern under the patriot act. that's a death sentence for that institution. we could do that for other large chinese banks. that would be a different political calculus in beijing a and beijing could go to the north korean regime and change the minds of those around kim jong-un and say we no longer support the weapons programs and no longer support the kim regime. i suspect that we would see amazing developments in pyongyang because of that. china has that overwhelming leverage over the north koreans. >> gordan chang, thank you, and admiral, thank you as well. still ahead, the white house continues to battle questions about the president's mental fitness. we'll tell you what the administration is saying and what they -- what will and won't be part of the president's physical that's happening on friday. plus new information about a possible meeting between president trump and special counsel robert mueller. and we'll speak live onset with former homeland security secretary jeh johnson. "morning joe" is coming right back. what is this? when we love someone, we want to do right by them. but some things we can't control like snoring. 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really smart. and a stable genius. do you think he's like really smart and a stable genius? >> i think this. if he doesn't call himself a genius, nobody else will. >> he beat me like a drum. he ran against 17 republicans and crushed us all. he ran against the clinton machine and won, so all i can say is you can say anything you want to say about the guy. i said he was a seen phobic religious bigot. i ran out of things to say. he won. guess what. he's our president. >> is he still all those things? >> in my view, he is my president and is doing a really good job on multiple fronts. welcome back to "morning joe." >> i'm confused. >> it's -- >> it's funny. no. i -- actually, i have -- i really like lindsey a lot as a person. i really do. i don't understand, though -- >> he must be getting something. >> how can we be a race baiting xenophobia bigot. i remember one time when he called me up yelling saying joe, you know me. you know i'm not a bigot. i said well, you play one on tv, and i think that may be worse than being an actual bigot. >> i they that was the loudest call ever. >> playing one tv for cynical reasons. this is what i've never been able to square. and it's one of the reasons why i have a problem with the column that you loved today from david brooks. david brooks and everybody loves this david brooks column by me, i guess. david brooks has spent a lot of his career splitting the difference. and for my party, former party, and your party, when we had extreme edges, well, david brooks was a great guy to split the differences and i was glad he was a voice of reason out there. i just don't know how you split the difference with somebody who you believe is a xenophobia racist bigot. i have to say early december of 2015, two or three months before any republicans voted, donald trump started talking about the muslim ban. i knew immediately at that moment, and i said it on tv at that moment. december, 2015. i could never vote for this guy. and asked is this what germany looked like in 1933, in 1934? now, did i think donald trump was talented on the campaign trail? yes. yes, i did. and we knew him for 10 or 11 years, but i knew at that moment, and said at that moment, i could never vote for that guy. i said i was going to vote for jeb bush, and i said. then i voted for john kasich. gene, is gene still -- help me out here. i just -- how do you split the difference, and okay, i'll make democrats uncomfortable and make them hate me too. i want to be an equal opportunity offender. how do democrats split the difference on bill clinton when they knew or many believed and would tell me off the air that he raped a woman. how do you split the difference to move your political agenda forward when in lindsey's case, he knows this guy's a racist, a bigot, a xenophobe. >> not everybody is able to split the difference. in terms of trump, i have no idea. i don't know how you can listen to that campaign and see how he conducted it and listen to the things he said and say, well, okay, we're going to meet in the middle someplace. if your position on charlottesville is that there are some very fine people in that crowd of torch wielding kkk and nazi supporters, that loses me. period. there's no way i can get over that fence or meet you somewhere in the middle on that. there's not a middle on that. but people can convince themselves of a lot of things and they can forget and lose their moral compass very easily if somebody is in office doing things that they like. >> look, i think they've clearly moved their moral compass. they've in effect made a pact with the devil. they have a tax bill, they're getting deregulation right and left, all the industries being deregulated. young people appointed to courts. we have this horrible guy, but look what we're getting on the other side. >> which i must say democrats and gloria steinem and people on the left said in 1998 and 1999 and 2000 and were still saying it up to 2016 until hillary clinton lost. now, most of the people i agree with and i respect loved the david brooks column including you. tell me why i'm wrong. >> i can't speak for david. it strikes me that when this presidency gets conservative plaud it from people like rich lowry, he's not talking about donald trump governing us in campaigns. quite the opposite. donald trump hasn't gone to the populist of his party. he's come to rich lowry. it's incumbent on lowry to notice he's come to him. it would be ridiculous if rich were to not acknowledge donald trump's successes because he's governing as he advocated he's governing for fear of the fact that -- the biggest problem with the presidency is the president. if donald trump's supporters were being consistent, they would be miserable, but they're not. they're saying -- >> but david brooks is telling us pay no attention to his racist tweets. pay no attention to what he said in charlottesville. >> is he in. >> yes. read it. he's basically saying look. talk about charlottesville specifically. i'm just saying -- he's saying look at what donald trump is doing ideologically. even though the president is a -- using lindsey's word, a racist, a bigot, a xenophobia person, and is hateful, look at all the good things that we're getting from the trump white house. and i'm just saying -- i'm not being self-righteous about it. we all have to make our compromises and we're all pragmatic in our own ways. i don't know how you make this -- how you split the difference when somebody undermines the very essence of what america is. and that is a nation that is one out of many. >> not -- i'm among them. i don't think this is something that you can dismiss and i think this president would be made better if the president weren't a part of it. that being said, he is. again, i can't speak for david, but -- >> i'm not attacking david. i think it's an important piece. certainly for conservatives to discuss. >> i think what he's doing is staging an intervention for trump conservatives reducing their influence because they're not taking the presidency as a whole. you have to take the good with the bad, and people who don't reduce their influence because they're speaking to an audience that they already have. >> there's a line in brooks' column where he said i sometimes wonder if the invisible white house has learned to use another white house to deck us while it changes the country. as if to say that trump in all of his nonsense is happening while behind it all there are policies that are not being dealt with. although we're talking about the tax bill,ing a al though we' alg at what's going on with deregulation and drilling and what he's doing, we're not really focusing actually, the country that is, on the policies themselves, because we're paying attention to the circus, and folks are comfortable with that. >> and the problem is -- >> that's not democratic. >> let's bring to the conversation the national correspondent for the washington post and republican communications strategist, rick tyler. you're a communication. i don't know if you'll agree with me or not, but the presidency is so much bigger than the policies that are passed. i suggested before and i know it's heresy that barack obama may not have been ready to be president in 2009, but we just celebrated the anniversary of the iowa caucus. i don't think tell you how many people said they wouldn't vote for him, but they wept openly when he went up on stage with his children. it showed we were a country that finally fulfilled the promise of our founders. we have a long way to go, i understand that on race. donald trump proves that every day. but isn't the opposite of that also true. donald trump sends a message about who we are across the globe with every tweet that is racially insensitive or attacks women or suggests that a sitting united states senator who is a woman would have given him sexual favors for campaign contributions? rick -- i just don't know how we split the difference on this. >> there's no splitting. >> i don't think you can split the difference, joe. it reminds me of when linking talked about the better angels of our nature which is why we're having this discussion about oprah winfrey today, because she appeals to the better angels of our nature. i think not all the other candidates notwithstanding, i think she is an inspiration. she started out with nothing, and i'm not here to promote here. i think she's an interesting person. >> we have you and padoritz who are going to run a campaign. go ahead, ted cruz former campaign spokesperson. oprah for 2023, go. >> she started out with nothing and beat phil don hue on the first day out. what oprah does is she's always shared her struggles. she's shared her vulnerabilities and triumphs and failures. people got to know her. people looked at her on television and said she's like me. she talks like me. i don't want to compare donald trump to oprah, but there are a lot of parallels in the sense that they both have a brand. oprah has an amazing brand. that's why i would encourage her not to run. trump also has a personal brand. very few people have a brand like that. but oprah seems to unite people and drives america toward the better angels of our nature where trump continues to divide people. having said all of that, look, there are a lot of things this administration and the congress is getting done. i know a lot of our viewers don't like that, but i think the tax bill is not a perfect bill, but the economy is doing well. the president is, i think, under-- well, let's say this. the polls for donald trump are artificially high. why? because the stock market is going well and a lot of people on this network, a lot of people don't own stock, but half of america does, and america is doing well. and i think the republicans have made a bet. they said look, the way the tax bill was scored we'll have a trillion and a half in deficit spending. i don't think that's true. i think without the tax bill, i think we would have gotten that kind of revenue. the problem is we're going to spend it all. i think we're having an argument about who we are as a country, and what kind of policies we want to have, but what's sad about this presidency is that it shows that america is still very vulnerable to having arguments that divide us apart on race, on ideology, on any number of things, and so when someone like oprah comes along and speaks about inspiration and a vision and working toward an america that we can all embrace, and people all around the world notice this. that's what's dangerous. in a sense the north koreans and south koreans are talking because they're looking at donald trump saying we're getting no leadership here, and then donald trump takes credit for that. if that's true, donald trump can take credit for a lot of things he's not involved in. that's nonsensical. >> it appears he's working from 11:00 to 4:00 now. i want to say for our viewers out there that noah rothman is in the vast majority, i think. what i said, i haven't seen anybody else say about david brooks' piece. i think to put perspective on this, mika, i think a lot of people agree with david brooks' piece. there is one part that i do get, and i am guilty of it. >> huh? >> he said that people who are against trump who believe he's a destructive force are insulated and isolated, and if they have friends or relatives who support donald trump, then they say let's just not talk about it, which, i must say, i have told family members, listen, let's talk about your kids. let's talk about my kids. let's talk about football. let's talk about red sox. but let's not talk about donald trump, because i want -- we even have a guy who is one of the smartest guys we know. we found out this past weekend, still supports donald trump. >> i know. >> and we were agas. i felt like the woman that was walking around the upper west side who famously said richard nixon won a landslide and not a single person voted for him. >> if the goal is guard your influence among conservatives because you're going to be important down the line. when the crisis comes, they're listening to you. >> the crisis is here. that's the difference. i think that's the difference. that's a great point. he says the crisis is coming. that's what separates david brooks and me right now. i think the crisis is here. >> and it's been here for quite some time. >> i think it's now. >> i think it's also -- we're sort of talking around another aspect of this which is important. going back to the point you made about how democrats rallied around bill clinton in the late 90s. clinton wasn't up for reelection. donald trump was revealed as a donald trump he is today. he took a hard line out of the gates. he got into a lot of public fights about immigration and built a core base within the republican party and said that's the rhetoric i want to hear. that helped him beat the 16. had it been one on one, he wouldn't have done as well. >> i remember when ben carson made an inflammatory statement about muslims. he talked about it, and i said the sad news is his poll numbers will probably go up. and guess what. his poll numbers went up. >> this is the question. and this is the question for republicans. what about that big part of the republican base which stands with trump because of who trump is? and we've seen polling. polling asked people who support donald trump why. was it because of his policy or his rhetoric. most of them said it's because of how he acts. that's the question. >> joe, i agree with you in that the crisis is here, it's not coming. one reason is that i think this that you can have a presidency separate from the president is just not the way our system works. and i think inevitably, that just doesn't work. you might think it's working for a week or for a month, but ultimately we give enormous responsibility and enormous power to one person, to the president of the united states, and if the president of the united states is not fit to hold the office, that's -- that's not a sustainable thing. >> he's supposed to be a leader. >> that's not going to end well. no matter what, there's no way this sort of presidency can function around indefinitely without him being involved. he's the president. >> gene is a great columnist. this discussion proves, and i'm serious here, that david brooks is a great columnist. he's written a column that we've been talking about for five minutes, and phillip, i think conservatives and republicans will be talking about it for a long time to come. that's what a columnist should do. >> i they you're right. david brooks, i think, he's in this weird position. a lot of republicans who oppose donald trump which this is the entire point of his piece, but i don't know that there's actually a resolution that he offers. he does do a good job of pointi pointing out, yes, there's these things happening but look at the decisions made by the trump white house made quietly and without anyone paying attention to them. all of that doesn't answer the question of what comes next. if donald trump were not to run for office in 2020, who does this republican party nominate, and does he embrace the same policies as donald trump? that's a key question. >> i brought up bill clinton in this conversation and republicans need to understand that democrats in 2016 paid in part. >> paid a price. >> for turning a blind eye for 16, 17, 18 years. hillary clinton paid a price. america is paying a price. mark it down tuesday, january 9th, 2018, the bill will come due on republicans who think this is all worth it. if you think america trading in their values in all the way donald trump has traded in his values for a couple of points reduction in the corporate tax, or regulatory reform around the margins, understand there's no such thing as a free lunch. you and your party are going to pay for it. >> and the country. gene robinson, thank you very much. still ahead on "morning joe," what we're learning this morning about president trump's upcoming physical exam as the white house battles back against questions over his mental fitness. we'll look at what sort of president exists for presidents to go public with their health issues. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. we offer our price match guarantee too. and if that's not enough... we should move. our home team will help you every step of the way. still not enough? it's smaller than i'd like. we'll help you finance your dream home. it's perfect. oh, was this built on an ancient burial ground? okay... then we'll have her cleanse your house of evil spirits. we'll do anything, (spiritual chatter) seriously anything to help you get your home. ally. do it right. of the season' on the only bed that adjusts on both sides to your ideal comfort, your sleep number setting. does your bed do that? right now our queen c4 mattress is only $1199, save $400. ends soon. visit 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about the foundations of the 25th amendment who formalize the succession of the presidency during a health crisis. is it time to ask more of our potential commanders in chiefs to put into law what they tell us about their health? >> after fitness to serve became a closing argument at his campaign. >> she can't make it feet to her car. >> donald trump will go far physical evaluation on friday. >> give me a break. >> amid new concern over the president's stability. >> she could be crazy. >> after a shocking week with tweets about nuclear war. >> comparing the size of his nuclear button with the dictator of north korea. >> his mental abilities. >> genius, a stable genius at that. >> and devastating claims denied by the white house. >> trump failed to recognize a succession of old friends. >> president trump's age? >> at age 70 you will be the oldest person to ever enter the oval office. >> and diet of fast food were raised during the campaign. >> kentucky fried chicken. >> and besides some additional details, the candidate only provided a letter with his doctor's bizarre claims. >> will be the healthiest individual ever elected. >> which even the doctor would distance himself from. >> is that the way you write most of your medical letters? >> no, but for many trump i wrote that letter that way. >> recent candidates released health records but like tax returns, there is no law formally mandating disclosure. presidents from fdr oh jfk to reagan have told the public only what they wanted them to know about their health. and with democrats in their early to late 70s if they run in three years. >> harry reid referred to the potential field as an old folk's home. >> now may be the time to establish what we should know about the health of our president and presidential candidates. >> she could be crazy. she could actually be crazy. >> with us now, jeff greenfield and susan page. we didn't know so much about john kennedy's health when he was president. we didn't know ronald reagan's battles in the latter part of his presidency. should we? should we have a yearly medical checkup? >> you get into a real problem when you distinguish between physical and mental problems. most of the democratic party insiders knew in 1944 that fdr was not going to live out a fourth term. that's why the vice president's deal was so hard. you go to grover cleveland who had emergency cancer surgery. the public was kept in the dark. my concern is when you move from that area to attempting to assess an emotional or mental state of a president, you get into dicey areas. you worry about whether or not the psychologists who might be doing the study or bringing their own political values. is it crazy to believe certain political views? they are in the shadow of the 1964 magazine when gold water was deemed unfit by a group of psychiatrists who never saw him. sued for libel and won. >> there's a reason why the gold water rule still stays with us. when you go from physical to mental, as you say, and as you go to mental with donald trump, this is something as somebody said yesterday, you'd better have national consensus, an overwhelming majority of americans. >> one psychologist wrote he's perfectly prepared to look at trump from a distance and say he's a narcissist times 100. that doesn't mean mental illness. and i'm one of those people who is very reluctant as a liberal arts major to assess psychologically. i'm prepared as a journalist to look at what he says and say he's a fab you list. he makes stuff up. he doesn't know much. narcissism, my 8-year-old grandson can figure that out. i worry about how this is supposed to happen. >> you have to have susan page, it seems to me, objective evidence, the sort of objective evidence that we do not have and most likely will not have. and is it -- i mean, isn't that the problem when we start talking about the 25th amendment, what jeff said, the difference between physical element. w woodrow wilson has a stroke that makes him incapable of continuing his presidency effect live. and someone may be in the early stages of dementia. >> we knew something this was something howard baker talked about with his associates in the second term of the reagan administration trying to decide if there was a need to do something. he decided there wasn't. the fact is even in the absence of a law, we've had an evolving norm that presidential candidates release their taxes anymore complete medical history than president trump did during his campaign. the ultimate check on a president is the one with voters. voters get to look at a candidate in stressful circumstances, in debates, and make a judgment about whether this is something they trust mentally, physically, politically, to be their leader. that's been the ultimate check in american politics. >> i had a question for jeff. it seems to me that one of the things we're dancing around here is the self-awareness involved in what happens. eisenhower sitting down and being aware of what was happening and the need to look forward with that. if the donald trump were to suffer a cognitive disability, it seems as though he, unlike most other presidents might be reticent to establish i am facing this decline, and here's what should happen. am i misreading that? is there another way this can be evaluated? >> no, and while the 25th amendment purported to solve some problems, it's dicey to bring in in this case. assuming you can imagine this cabinet and this vice president saying you're not fit, and trump saying of course i am. congress then has three weeks to debate that, and you need two-thirds of the vote in both houses. it's harder to use the 25th amendment than impeachment. a president who is asserting i'm fine, i'm a genius, just like wiley cay o coyote, the only me is the 25th amendment. >> and it is such an extraordinary remedy. it needs to be more difficult to have more difficult barriers than impeachment, because you're basically taking away the will of the american voters. a guy that's sitting at 35% is one thing. it seems to me it would have to be at 10%, 11%, and have most of americans know objectively if you're talking about a mental impairment, but this guy is just not mentally fit to continue serving. >> well, i'll make one quick point. i think we treat the elderly in this country terribly. i think it's a national conversation we need to have. i want to ask susan page if we're questioning donald trump's mental fitness, is it not donald trump who started the conversation by talking about being a stable genius and the fact that he's so -- wants everybody to think that he's so smart? could he have avoided this whole conversation? >> certainly his response to "f "fire and fury" could have been different. he shined a spotlight on his fiercest critics selling books, and in fact, with his response, reinforcing some of the arguments that michael wolff was making in the book about his mental state. that has been surprising the last several days to see how the president's responded to this. he has, in fact, as you're suggesting, fuelled this extraordinary conversation we're having as a nation about the president's mental fitness. >> susan, rick, thank you both. jeff stay with us. coming up the president used his appearance in nashville yesterday to once again tout economic gains under his administration, but not everyone is reaping the rewards from wall street. steve rattner digging into that next on "morning joe." ♪ oh, look... another anti-wrinkle cream in no hurry to make anything happen. neutrogena® rapid wrinkle repair® works in just one week. with the fastest retinol formula available. it's clinically proven to work on fine lines and wrinkles. one week? that definitely works! rapid wrinkle repair®. and for dark spots, rapid tone repair. neutrogena®. see what's possible. the markets change... at t. rowe price... our disciplined approach remains. global markets may be uncertain... but you can feel confident in our 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all-time record after another. boosting your 401 ks and retirement accounts for everyday americans. everybody happy with your 401k? because if you're not, there's something very wrong. >> there is no doubt the markets are booming in recent months but how do the record in your opinion -- numbers impact most american's bank accounts. >> donald trump is twisting things and making them look better than they are. for the average american, it's not that great. the stock market, you can see only 50% of the americans own any stocks at all. this includes iras, retirement accounts. when you drop below the m midpoint, only 28% of americans own any stock. and you wouldn't be surprised to know the amounts they own are quite different. if you're a wealthy person in the top 10%, your average holdings are $365,000. in the middle they're $15,000, and it drop down from there. for the average american, the stock market is not the boom that it is for other people near the top. >> all right. people were clapping when he said i know you're happy about this. >> look, it's a good thing for america, but it is not -- i don't think people totally understand who the benefits are going to. you can see it in the next chart. stocks are up 17% in this country since the end of january. by the way, they're up just as much around the rest of the world. for donald trump to take credit for this is besides the point. for most americans their biggest asset is their house. it's up 4% during the time period, and their wages which are up 2.3% during this period. if you're in the blue collar class, your wages are only up about 1%. people who own stocks are up 17% plus. people who own houses are up 2 % to 4 %. you can see it in jobs. trump was tweeting about how the high stock market is good for jobs. let's look at what he produced in terms of jobs. yes, he produced 2 million jobs since he started. but that is actually the lowest number of jobs in a year since back in 2011. and in fact, in 2014 president obama's administration there were 3 million jobs created. >> why is consumer confidence so high right now? you can look to quite a few i indicators that suggest americans are more optimistic when it comes to the economy than they've been in a long time. >> it's part of a rising trend that's been going on for a number of years. the fact is the economy is going well. we are creating jobs. for the rest of the world, this is the highest growth frame for a decade. things are going pretty well. the thing you have to ask yourself is how much credit does donald trump get for that. he hasn't done that much, and also the fact that i don't think the stock market is what's going to make his base rich again. >> jeff, if you talk to business owners, they'll say trump is for us. he's on our side. we always felt like president obama was against us. we heard this all the time, and he doesn't have a single person in the white house that knows how to create a job. >> there's a story from the kennedy administration where the secretary of the treasury is on a commercial airplane. a businessman said what about kennedy's tax plan. he said why i am against it? because i'm a republican. i think the business community sees the anti-regulatory and the tax bill is loaded toward what is left of the investor class. i don't think that's surprising. there's another chart that i just saw that said in terms of net worth, american still haven't fully recovered from the disaster of ten years ago. is that right? >> that's true. and it's in large part because most american's houses are their principle asset. in general they're not back to where they were. the business class is happy with trump for all the reasons we've been talking about. for the average american, it's not clear how well they've done. >> well, after the election there's a fascinating poll where essentially republicans as soon as donald trump won, economic confidence among republicans spiked. alo along democrats it tapers off. we saw numbers which show that confidence among small business owners spiked immediately after the election. it's clear to me that there's some political aspect. >> first, i've seen that chart, and it's interesting. the flip in confidence if you're a republican or democrat was greater than it's ever been in another election. this was a highly partisan election, and if people liked donald trump, they believed it was great for the economy. if they didn't, they didn't. the business community is happy. they're getting deregulation and tax cuts and all this stuff. >> but you have long believed that the corporate tax rate is too high in america. you've written editorials for the op eds for the new york times suggesting you even go down to a zero percent corporate tax rate. >> i can never get over your memory. how you can pull out -- crammed with alabama plays and all this stuff. >> i'm rain man. you should see me. >> you'd be surprised at what he forgets. >> just personally, not politically sthchlt. >> what the rest of the piece said is you should then take the money you save by lowering the corporate tax rate and use it to help average americans in terms of their tax bill, and in fact, and you should raise taxes on the wealthy by raising the capital gains. this does the opposite. >> my bigger point was it's not just republican business owners who like the corporate tax cuts. there are a lot of democratic business owners and democratic investors who also are more optimistic about the economy today than they were five years ago. >> going back to the earlier conversation, i know so many businessmen who are democrats who are never trumpers, and now they kind of say, well, you know, i still think the guy's a bad guy, but he's made me so much money. my stock price is up. my tax rate is getting cut. so people do. the business community is happy with what they're getting. there's no question about it. my question is what has the average american gotten? >> fascinating charts. jeff, thank you for being with us this morning. up next, the threat of cyber attacks from abroad. an immigration fight at home, and a record breaking year for natural disasters. a lot to discuss with former homeland security jeh johnson who joins us onset next on "morning joe." my name's dustin. hey, dustin. grab a seat. woman: okay. moderator: nice to meet you. have you ever had car trouble in a place like this? 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"the washington post" is reporting muler is likely to seek a formal interview according to two people familiar with the talks. mueller accompanied by his deputy raised the issue during a late december meeting with the president's lawyers. they cite a jay sole judge johnson secretary. seems to me getting lost from both sides and especially about the russian inquiry is integrity of voting system. the integrity of all -- of other systems in this country from the tax, whether it be from russia, china, or north korea. >> last year, 2016, should have been a wake up call for us. in terms of the cyber security of our election infrastructure. jim clapper and are i issued the statement on october 27, 2016 pointing the finger at the russian government just before i left office. i designated election infrastructure as critical infrastructure in this country. we saw voter registration database across the country are exposed to cyber attacks. i'm pleased to see some states and this really is the responsibility of the states. some states have taken it seriously. they've heard the call. seep the threat and trying to address it. a number of others are not and at the national level, we're still frankly arguing over with whether or not we should do anything about it. and my concern is that we are as vulnerable now as we were a year and a half ago. >> mr. secretary, changing gears a little bit. yesterday the administration announced they were scaling back the temporary protected status for about 200 thousand salvadorians. another 100,000 some odd members of the international community in this probably on the block. i find it hard to imagine how this happens. many of them have been here for 20 years. simply returning to the shadows. not going to be a deportation regime. how would this be implemented. >> first of all. temporary protected status is something that the secretary of homeland security has the authority to grant based off of a disaster like a hurricane or flood or earthquake. and we've got this in place for people in this country for a number of different places. and this administration has definitely taken a much harder line on tps. temporary protected status is supposed to be temporary. for a number of people existed for years and years. i actually ended tps for the nation's in west africa after we dealt with the ebola crisis and ended it for certain class of haitians in 2016. it is supposed to be temporary. this administration is very definitely taken a harder line. i think we have to be sympathetic to the fact there are people who have been in this country for years and years with work authorization, the ability to work on the books, and when we terminate tps, we're basically as you say sending them into the shadows. contemplate lead leaving the country. leaving the kids behind. >> this is something that comprehensive immigration reform could address a path to citizensh citizenship. this is a population that estimated to be somewhere around 11.5 million. we've got to reckon with the population. they're not going away. more than half of the population has been here in excess of ten years. they've become integrated members of the society. >> since we have you and it sort of speaks to the broad overview of dhs. so many topics to discuss. seems pretty clear we're going do nothing about climate change. and potentially take serious steps back. what would you say assuming the new president comes in in 2021. what would you wow say the united states need to do immediately to address the threat posed. >> my concern is climate change coupled with aging infrastructure in this koun tco this is a long-term challenge for nation and world. president obama wanted to address it very much. something he talked about all the time. it's something that the next president will need to come back to very definitely. it is a security issue. >> mr. secretary just to go back to the first part of the discussion. why is it do you think this administration was so many people like general kelly and general mattis who understand if problems and understand the threats has done so little to actually deal with the substance of what happened in 2016 election. and in other times. >> well, obviously conflicted. president trump does not want to say anything that would acknowledge that his election was in some way subject to outside influences. i mean, you see that all the time in his own statement. his white house administration is obviously conflicted about that. >> let me ask you about that question. obviously the russians tried to influence the election. is there evidence that they actuality did? >> i'm sorry. >> influence the outcome of the election. >> oh. >> we've got evidence james comey did. i suspect james comey may have more than the russians. >> i'm not a social sinetist. i'm not a pollster. i can't tell you whether votes were altered as a result of the russian hacking or some of the stuff we now see they put out there without atrickstribution. 2016 shown should be a wakeup call. my old boss say one of these days we're going to have a cyber pearl harbor. he said that in 2012. 2016 may have been it. now you're across the street. >> 1285. ierally walk across the street. >> still ahead. president trump jumps back to campaign mode last night. telling a crowd at nashville how lucky they are to have the privilege of having him as president and having a chance to vote for him. also ivanka trump praises the speech that many democrats hope is the beginning of campaign to challenge her father in 2020. a trump versus oprah battle could look like in john me dora's dream. morning joe back in a moment. tomorrow, it's a day filled with promise and new beginnings, challenges and opportunities. at ameriprise financial, we can't predict what tomorrow will bring. but our comprehensive approach to financial planning can help make sure you're prepared for what's expected and even what's not. and that kind of financial 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about 2016 election victory and receiptly passed tax bill on capitol hill. >> every democratic voted against tax cuts for the american farmer and american worker. republicans came together and delivered historic relief for our farmers and middle class. if the democrats ever had the chance, the first thing they would do is get rid of it and raise up your taxes. sometimes by 40, 50, 60 pkts hi% higher than you're paying right now. >> we're streamlining regulations that have plblocked cutting edge biotechnology. setting free our farmers to innovate, thrive and grow. oh, are you happy you voted for me. you are so lucky that i gave you that privilege. the other choice wasn't going work out too well for the farmers. hate to tell you. or the minors or anything else. >> i will sign two presidential orders to provide broader and faster and better internet coverage. make sure you look up at real donald trump. it will only way around the media. fake media. turned out to be. there was no way to 270, and we got 304. we had 306 and ended up being 304. you'll explain that to me some day. >> i remember a month or so after donald trump's inauguration, you actually had news papers and columnists surprised that donald trump would still be bragging a month into it about his electoral win and sayi ing false things and showing people the map. almost a year later and still talking about electoral college win. i just for some reason, this time. bruce springsteen song glory days reminded of the guy talking about his high school pitching. and here we are. he's in the middle of you know crisis after crisis and still talking about beating hillary clinton. >> he made that touchdown throw in high school and he'll never let anybody forget about it. that's, you know, yes, he won electoral college victory. he's still talking about it more than a year after the election. it's incredible. does give you an idea. the more we learn, again, about the loop that plays inside donald trump's head. the more kind of concerned we get about that. he talks about the same stuff over and over again. that's one of the things he talks about. >> he certainly went to friendly confines yesterday, but he certainly had a receptive audience there among farmers who voted for him last time. if he runs again, will most likely vote for him next time. the question is how does he move beyond and start expanding the base or at least stop what appears to be coming in 2018, which could cripple his presidency for the next two years. >> yes the republican party is today a rural party. they understand, i think, that it's the suburbs that are going to deliver what looks to be now like a big blue wave. anything could happen between now and november. that is what is in the cards. yesterday, we had foreign affairs committee chairman ed royce retire. 13 termser. southern california. orange county. you know, sort of the heart land of the republican party. and that is a seat that's probably gone. republicans are going to have to defend a lot of turf and triage resources and that's one where they probably can't afford to waste a lot of money. there's going be a lot of seats like that. republican party is going to be handed a suburban defeat to the extent that i think they have to think of it as a crisis. party can't exist as a rural party that is afraid of the coast and afraid of anywhere that's budding and urban areas. won't be sustainable. >> and the president may be basking in electoral college victory. some other signs that the midterms could be tough for its party. noah mentioned. ed royce of california is not seeking re-election. the 13 terms congressman joins a growing list of republicans who have decided to not run in this year's midterms. royce's seat was considered as a rule vulnerable after hillary clinton won. after news of royce's retirement the cook political report leaned to lean democrat. royce will be the eighth house republican committee chair to leave congress during or after this terms. some like royce are limited from keeping gavels. others include judiciary chairman, financial services chairman. transportation committee chair bill. science committee chair lamar smith. house administration chair. diane black is leaving congress to run for governor. former oversight committee jason chavis left congress last year. >> it is a list. and even in the best of years, when presidents's approval ratings are around 50%. party in power gets walloped. now with donald trump with his torque l historic low numbers certainly for the first year. how bad is this going to be? if we continue on this trajectory. >> my tricks are as good as the paper they're written on. not written on any paper. you'll never find it. doesn't look like it's going to be very good. we've seen in specials and offyears and last november every democratic that can vote is coming out. republicans rnts s aren't. republicans are staying home. there's a talking point saying committee chairman are terms limited going to get out of there because they don't want to be chairman anymore. bod lulg bottom line is no one wants to be in minority. >> total of 19 republicans who said they're not going to run. if you look at where republicans are underperforming, it's in a lot of these areas where people are retiring and it used to be that republicans would win by winning the suburbs and they would win by rining the rural areas. they have. especially over the past year. in the age of trump. >> at least over the past been obliterated instead suburbs. >> there's a general kind of sense across the country that the two party system is broken. the republican party is broken. folks really want their lives to be fundamentally transformed by the politicians that represent them. i think every politician across the board should be concerned. even the democrats. put up with the nonsense. >> if i were there, i wouldn't want to put up with people asking me. today you cured cancer, you scaled most dangerous cliff of -- side of mount everest and you broke the record for the one mile. tell us about donald trump's sweep. wherever ed royce goes, he's not talking about pakistan -- he's trying to talk about pakistan. if he campaigns, it's going to be all about donald trump. what democrats had to deal with in 1994. what republicans dealt with in 2006 and george w. bush. jean, i think it's going to be far more difficult with donald trump because his historically low numbers, but if you look forward, you see again, we're getting in this pattern. i can see so donald trump wins the electoral college in 2016. democrats win huge in 2018. if we go back to 2004, this is what happens every two years and donald trump is re-elected. we are getting into this repeating cycle. >> yeah, we are. i mean, the asterisk here is that donald trump doesn't necessarily follow or establish patterns. he's not your usual republican. your general point is right. we do sort of have back and forth and some people say, well, you know, it's overreach. one party overreaches and there's a correction. i actually don't see it that way. i think there's a misalignment. i think people the parties are not aligned with where the country is. where people are. and political system is not just responsive. >> that's such an important point that both sides, the base of both sides, especially the people who give money to candidates that run for president, especially on both sides, are so much more extreme than 70% of americans. and so it's one bad choice followed by another bad choice to offset the bad choice you had to make two years ago, and it just keeps repeating itself. unfortunately, it seems like our system is only capable we hear, of producing presidents from two parties that are. >> out of touch. >> so out of touch. >> >> our entire political system i think continues to thi think. we all know the republican party is conservative and these are conservative policies. specific policies and we know the democratic party is liberal. and these specific policies. the axis now goes in a different direction. that's one thing that allowed some people like donald trump to win. donald trump who was not doing traditional conservative policies when he ran. he was talking about protectionism and trade. talking about at the beginning, universal health care. he certainly was talking about keeping entitlements. that's not what republicans are generally sound like. a and, you know, in that sense, i think there might be an opening for a democratic who doesn't sound like a traditional democrat. until we get the axis right and figure it out. we're going to have this sort of back and forth. still ahead on morning joe, who could beat a billionaire tv mogul for president. how about another billionaire tv mogul. a preview that could be a race for the white house and what ivanka trump is saying about oprah. you're watching morning joe. we'll be right back. ♪ it's a lot easier to make decisions when you know what comes next. if you move your old 401(k) to a fidelity ira, we make sure you're in the loop at every step from the moment you decide to move your money to the instant your new retirement account is funded. ♪ oh and at fidelity, you'll see how all your investments are working together. because when you know where you stand, things are just clearer. ♪ just remember what i said about a little bit o' soul ♪ and my brother ray and i started searching for answers. (vo) when it's time to navigate in-home care, follow that bright star. because brightstar care earns the same accreditation as the best hospitals. and brightstar care means an rn will customize a plan that evolves with mom's changing needs. (woman) because dad made us promise we'd keep mom at home. (vo) call 844-4-brightstar for your free home care planning guide. culture, geography, race, religion. >> they're bringing drugs, they're bringing crime. >> they're the women whose names we will never know. >> we have losers. we have losers. >> they are domestic workers. and farm workers. >> dumping ground for everybody else's problem. >> they're part of the world of tech and politics and business. >> they're laughing at us and our stupidity. >> there are athletes in the olympics and soldiers in the military. >> i'm really rich. >> i want all the girls watching here and now to know. >> thank you darylen. >> that new day is on the horizontal. >> i'm proud of my net worth. i've done an amazing job. >> when that new day finally dawns. >> i'm not doing that to brag because you know what, i don't have to brag. >> take us to the time when nobody ever has to say many too again. >> okay. that is what the campaign ad might look like following her rousing golden globes speech on sunday night. growing speculation that oprah winfrey will run for president in 2020. her partner, hinted at a possible run. it's up to the people and that she would absolutely do it, but a person in the know tells nbc news that she has no intention of running for president. some democrats are excited at the prospect of oprah 2020 ticket. former iowa state director tweeted at winfrey to call him and former obama administration adviser called oprah an amazing leader, but democrats were not the only ones blown away by oprah's golden globe speech. ivanka trump commented last night on oprah's remarks tweeting, just saw oprah's em pourering and inspiring speech at last night's golden globes. let's all come together women and men, say times up. >> one person come together, john me dora. i think he's probably right. democrats need to decide whether or not they want their own donald trump and it seems like they really do. she gave a very good speech. she has very little policy knowledge as far as we understand it. somebody should be asking these questions if they're very serious about having this person come in and soak up the electorate and push out all these people in democratic party who we thought were rising stars, but apparently don't have the statute. >> sure donald trump slugged it all the way out to may. -- elizabeth warren, andrew como, what do you mean they disappeared. all of a sudden the euphoria of oprah candidacy. >> look to take the nationshtio consciousness. >> i got enormous number of calls, do you think oprah could do it. how would this work. this and that. what it represents is the fact there's no natural leader at the moment of the democratic party. democrats look around seeing 20 people thinking they're all going to be president, but nobody they're excited about. >> i will add one thing. that thing we saw there, during the last year of democratic national convention i was having a crisis because the republican convention was dougher and down on the future of america. contrast so stark with their democratic national convention which was a staged love affair with america. military, flags all over the place, kind of model and patriotism i grave at a tiitate this is not going to be the same convention. in is about continuity. >> i think it's sweet of you to be worried about elizabeth warren and come cuomo. i don't think you're worried about them at all. i think actually that what makes her a real potential part of this conversation, eddy, i'll ask you, i think she connects with people across america in a way that no democrat on the forefront. no democrat that you might have named that you think has been pushed aside unfairly because you know they'd lose. no democrat can connect like oprah. and to the very part of this country that feels overlooked by the left. >> one of the points you made about donald trump when he was running for the presidency was he was in folk's homes regularly. there was this kind of connection that he had through the reality television show he had. >> right. >> oprah has been in folk's homes for a while. >> yes. >> she's cut across a number of demographics in doing so. she has been this kind of therapeutic space for folks to give voice to what's deep inside, problems deep inside. i want to say this. this is not what the democracy needs. our democracy is in trouble t. idea of celebrity which is really the kind of logical extension of name recognition politics entertainment. right. has really been part of the reason why we're in such troe trouble. we need at this point, not someone who will tell us, give voice to our ideals in the way she did. that's great. we also need someone to enact it. to be able to move through the mechanisms of government. to be able to think about and help us rebuild our institutions. >> coming up on morning joe, a critical conversation that is all too often drowned out by the minute to minute news cycle. the heavy burden on america's armed forces from syria to afghanistan 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not awesome? gig-speed internet. when only certain people can get it. let's fix that. let's give this guy gig- really? and these kids, and these guys, him, ah. oh hello. that lady, these houses! yes, yes and yes. and don't forget about them. uh huh, sure. still yes! xfinity delivers gig speed to more homes than anyone. now you can get it, too. welcome to the party. coming up on morning joe, makingce sense of many too. talk to two columnist. leading important and perhaps uncomfortable discussions at the moment. first, here's bill karins with a check on the forecast. unfortunately, burn areas are now reporting mud and debris fl flows. heavy rain event they desperately needed the rain. just not this much this fast. flash flood around santa barbara. here's the burn area. the fire went from ventura all the way to santa barbara. already had report of five inchings of rainc inches of rain. once we get the pictures, not going to be pretty. u.s. one closed. very heavy rain in central portions of california. san francisco at three inches on rain. now in the east, warm up gone. d.c. is very foggy. warm air trying to move in. with that is coming a lot of low clouds. hopefully burn that off as we go throughout the day. see not a thick layer of fog. beautiful picture with the white house in the foreground and the monument. does make for dangerous drive conditions early today. this afternoon looks much better. finally in the 40s along i-95. been about two weeks. you're watching morning joe. we'll be right back. ♪ dad! dad!!! can you drive me to jessica's house? uuughhh! ♪ this is what our version of financial planning looks like. tomorrow is important, but so is making the most of the house before they're out of the house. spend you life living. find an advisor at northwesternmutual.com. of the season' on the only bed that adjusts on both sides to your ideal comfort, your sleep number setting. does your bed do that? right now our queen c4 mattress is only $1199, save $400. ends soon. visit sleepnumber.com for a store near you. it's been happening for a very long time. >> it's been a difficult year for our industry discovering a lot of things a lot of things have come out of the darkness and into the light. >> right now we have the chance to be heard. >> it's really powerful that women feel em popowered to say something. i think the rest of us should just listen. >> people will be held accountable. we're sick and we're not going to take it anymore. >> i want the girls watching here and now that a new day is on the horizontal. celebrities wore black and times up pins and some brought social activists as their dates to show their support of the me too movement. >> before sunday's award ceremony, our next guess wrote a provacative and important column for the "new york times" entitled publically we say me too. privately we have misgivings. contributing writer for the paper joins us now. editor and mary weiss. g good to have you. public versus private. what are the misgiving privately. >> i think it has a lot to do with the sense that there is no -- there's not enough room for distinction, for nuance. for -- you have to have a blanket opinion that all the -- that everything goes one way. so that in the differing instances. differing, whatever you want to call them. >> eric: even to discuss that seems to be off the record. >> it does. and different levels which deserve a different conversation if you're looking at something traditionally. the crimes have different levels of punishment. i'm sure everything i saytwistey my best here. >> that's the point. >> people with talking past each over. you could have a great conversation about sexual harassment and look at it and the two sides are not actually hearing each other. which i've had some deeply personal experiences with that over the past few months. where we think we're trying to get somewhere, and we get absolutely nowhere was a of some explosion in the middle of it all. >> we see what happens when any sort of certainly columnist, but also public figures you know who are sort of writing a piece for the times saying i dress modestly to avoid unnecessary situations. you see people refusing to say. you see matt damon making the exact point we're making now about differences between this sort of kinds of misconduct and these people are getting blurred publically. so if people like that, celebrities are getting hoaxed. you can imagine how much people that don't have that position of power are silencing themselves from the public conversation. >> you're right. the fact that such un -- one of the excerpts. the facts that such unwelcomed advances persist and often in the office is yes evidence of sexism. and the abuse power of the pay t patriarchy. one could argue it's overdue. one could also ask why now? is this some form of massive collective displacement from trump. something i've wondered about a lot. >> me too. >> i don't know if it's to me some form of displacement. it's also siphoning off of you could argue outrage. since the movement specializes in outrage about bigger or at least as important issues. . >> each of these individual cases being litigated in specific ways and trying to use them as a way to respond to this broader cultural moment. part of the challenge i've had over the course of the many too movement is how do we get to individual instances to a systemic critique of patriarchy. and how it defines the places we work. and how it defines how i'm socialized and how i interact. how do we move from individual instances where we get into these messy distinctions and just blurring distinctions and have these kind of moments where x is the same as not x in some ways. how do we get to this discussion of patriarchy as such? >> one way to get to it is to continue right now it seems like there's one tool to dismantle the patriarchy and that one tool is pointing out sexual harassment, substance abuse, some horrible instances, rape. this is incredibly important part of it. it needs to move beyond that to the things that you're talking about. >> i tried to suggest that how we bring up our sons and daughters, it's a question i've had with my own daughter when discussing this. one of the questions, beyond the question of did he -- did that particular person do something wrong or not. i'm not sure we figured out the larger questions. which is how do we change i guess in a way, how do we change some of the excesses of patriarchy. >> how do we change the culture. one of the big untold stories of this that i'm hearing about a lot from friends that i know, older friends than me in corporate america, is that the result of this so far is this sort of cult you culture of fea i know top partner of a law firm. went on a trip to argue a case. the critical other colleague of his working with him was a woman. he did not want to go on a trip with a woman because he was afraid of the perception of it. at the cost of the client, he brought along a male colleague that had nothing to do with the case. in a way, there's this rule and that's one of the big untold stories of this so far. i don't think that's where we want to be going. >> no, there's so many different questions here. we'll follow this and have you both back if you will. i know it's tough. it's a tough conversation i think companies need to level the playing field on so many levels, not just actually this is what happens after the fact. >> right. >> it's how do you prevent it. >> how do you create a culture where the actual physical space where people work makes sense where it's fair, where it's open. where it's tans pareransparent. how is work conducted. how is it appropriate to do work. not the mike pence rule, but also let's level the playing field. it's definitely up to corporate america to do the right thing with this. thank you so much. our next guest says the president's conservative policy achievement would never make up for destructive shamelessness. joins us here onset next on morning joe. a leaf is a hint that is connected to each person in your family tree. i learned that my ten times great grandmother is george washington's aunt. within a few days i went from knowing almost nothing to holy crow, i'm related to george washington. this is my cousin george. discover your story. start searching for free now at ancestry.com 7joining her daughter'st tyoga class.ut she was thinking about her joints. but now that she's taking osteo bi-flex, she's noticing a real difference in her joint comfort. with continued use, it supports increased flexibility over time. karen: "she's single." it also supports wonderfully high levels of humiliation in her daughter. karen: "she's a little bit shy." in just 7 days, your joint comfort can be your kid's discomfort. osteo bi-flex. you were made to move. so move. joining us now. military foreign policy analyst and senior counsel at the foreign relations max boot. his new book is the road not taken. edward and the american tragedy in vietnam and it is fantastic to have you on the show this morning. first of all. steve rattner had a question about how long did this take you. >> it took me five years. not an overnight project. >> that's the time. little different than michael wolff's book. >> little different. more facts. >> tell us about edward and why you devoted so much of your life to telling his story. >> he was an extraordinary secret agent. set to be the model for the quiet america and ugly america. one of the most amazing figures in history of foreign policy whose story has never been well told. he was a guy in the early 50s. helped defeat a communist rebellion in the philippines. went to south vietnam and helped create. really warned against a lot of the mistakes we made in vietnam. he was trying to tell the folks in the kennedy and johnson administration you're not going win this war with fire power. the one point he went into the office and dumped a load of weapons caked with mud and blood just very simple weapons that they were using the people using these weapons are wearing pajamas. they don't have the sophistication we have. they are licking us and defeating us. you have to understand the ideas that motivate them. they thought he was an idiot. you can just reduce war to an equation. unfortunately there's a lot of that mind set which still prevails down to the present day. >> i was about to ask why his story is so important. >> i think it's incredibly important. when you think about why are we still struggling in the war on terrorism. we're able to kill a lot of terrorists. killed hundreds of thousands since 9/11. it's still generating more terrorists. comes down to politics. internationally it's about politics. about getting the politics for the countries right. that's something the headlines belief in. you're not going to defeat insurgency. you have to create a government what the people can support. that's something we don't focus on because it's easier to go out and use drones and air strikes and kill individual fighters, but it doesn't achieve our results and unfortunately we still have not learned the lessons. >> is it lessons necessarily or the constraints of reality. hr mcmaster made his name. defining and describing. yet we have iraq, a stalemate now in syria in which we're receding a lot of territory to a government that's not legitimate and dealing with the world as it is rather than the world we would like it to be, no? >> i think we tend to deal with the world in the way we feel most comfortable in dealing with the world. we as the united states are best at basically technological solutions to our problems. we try to have technology for everything. spy satellites and drones and killing individual fighters, but it's much more a a struggle and very, very difficult to do in places like iraq, afghanistan, syria, somali, et cetera to create stable political environments that can actually win the support and allegiance of the people. we throw up hands in despair. the point i make is we need mor weapon of war, who can go out there and engage individuals in these societies, understand those society, influence them. so we don't have to send american troops to do the fighting. so our local allies will do the fighting against our mutual enemies. >> you take vietnam, which at least in my perception was mostly a fight of vietnamese against vietnamese and trying to get america out of there. very different from afghanistan. where you've got all these tribal conflicts. let's just take it to a specific case. the president just announced he was going to send military to pakistan to try to get the pakistanis to cooperate with us. if you take this opinion, which essentially lawless societies, tribal violence. what would you do about it? >> i actually see a lot of similarities with the kind of issues that landsdale dealt with in vietnam. but i think what we're seeing now is kind of the opposite approach. we're seeing what he actually protested against. which is this my way or the highway approach. and you can make the case for cutting off aid to pakistan but i would suggest a more fruitful approach would be to hug pakistan more tightly and try to influence their behavior in the way that landsdale did in the philippines and the way landsdale did in south vietnam. he was a leadership whisperer. and after he left, things kind of went off the rails. we've seen similar in iraq and afghanistan where we've been at odds with our own local allies. we really need somebody like a landsdale who can influence very difficult allies like pakistan in a more constructive direction. >> so putting aside the book the road not taken, let's look at the road being taken now. your latest piece -- >> great segue. >> it's entitled never trump doesn't owe anyone an apology. >> well, this is my reaction to some of the triumphantalism you've seen from the trump supporters since they got a legislative achievement. you can have different perspectives. i'm not a huge fan of racking up over $1 trillion in debt but a lot on the right think this is a achievement that basically justifies the entire trump presidency. my reply to that is not so fast. yes, even if you're happy about a few policy achievements. i'm happy about a few things. i think we ought to be moving the u.s. embassy to jerusalem. i'm happy about the fact he's sending a few more troops to afghanistan. i think there's some positive things. i think it's far outweighed by the craziness and all of the incredibly offensive things he does. >> that were normalized. >> you can't just separate it out. you have this president who is comparing the size of his nuclear button to north korea and risking nuclear war with north korea. you have a president who thinks that white supremacists are very fine people. you know, doing crazy, you know, attacking the freedom of the press on a daily basis, trying to undermine the rule of law, besmirching the fbi. you can't separate it out. it's not like an a la carte. it's like i'll take two things from the trump tray and ignore everything else on there. no, it's an all you can eat buffet. >> we've been discussing that. >> one of our themes this morning. the book is "the root not taken." you can read an excerpt at joe.msnbc.com. max boot, congratulations. up next, roll tide. >> roll tide. to make decisions when you know what comes next. if you move your old 401(k) to a fidelity ira, we make sure you're in the loop at every step from the moment you decide to move your money to the instant your new retirement account is funded. ♪ oh and at fidelity, you'll see how all your investments are working together. because when you know where you stand, things are just clearer. ♪ just remember what i said about a little bit o' soul ♪ it was always our singular focus. to do whatever it takes, use every possible resource. to fight cancer. and never lose sight of the patients we're fighting for. our cancer treatment specialists share the same vision. experts from all over the world, working closely together to deliver truly personalized cancer care. and these are the specialists we're proud to call our own. expert medicine works here. learn more at cancercenter.com appointments available now. and my brother ray and i started searching for answers. (vo) when it's time to navigate in-home care, follow that bright star. because brightstar care earns the same accreditation as the best hospitals. and brightstar care means an rn will customize a plan that evolves with mom's changing needs. (woman) because dad made us promise we'd keep mom at home. (vo) call 844-4-brightstar for your free home care planning guide. going somewhere? whoooo. here's some advice. tripadvisor now searches more... ...than 200 booking sites - to find the hotel you want and save you up to 30%. trust this bird's words. tripadvisor. you can now join angie's list for free. that means everyone has access to our real reviews that we actually verify. and we can also verify that what goes down doesn't always come back up. ♪ [ splash ] [ toilet flushes ] so if you need a great plumber, find one at angie's list. join today for free. because your home is where our heart is. ah, turn it up. the host of the paul finebaum show, analyst paul finebaum. i just don't know where to start. how do you -- where do you put this alabama national champi championship in context with other championships? >> from an historical context, i think it removes any doubt. there wasn't much anyway. after last night, after the decision two years ago to onside kick against clemson which won the game and then changing the starting quarterback who had only lost two games, i think nick saban is the greatest college football coach of all time and i won't hear any other conversation about it. >> can you think of any precedent in any sport where you had a coach at such a pivotal moment take out a guy considered one of the best players on his team, a quarterback with a 25-2 record, take him out for an untested rookie or freshman? >> you know, jalen hurst who started the game, started all the games after the first couple of -- last season, was the sec offensive player of the year last year. we were talking about him as a heisman candidate earlier. >> unbelievable. >> and tua tagovailoa, from hawaii, he had never been in a game where alabama had less than a double digit lead. there's no precedent in sports history i don't think to put this in context. >> yes, what were your thoughts as you saw the final play and saw alabama pull this thing out? >> it was pure shock because on the previous play, the quarterback had been sacked for just a terrible almost game-ending loss. on top of that, for people who didn't stay up until midnight, alabama had a chip shot field goal to win the game and missed it. you could do movie on just the last quarter of the game, the improbable boost back and forth. the game's only 12 hours old, less than that, and i'm still searching for words. >> really quickly, how good are the georgia bulldog, kirby smart and how bright is there future? >> it's unbelievable. not only on top of what we saw yesterday. the quarterback, jake farm, just unbelievable in the first half. they are recruiting at a saban-like pace which is going to set up a rivalry for the ages between georgia and alabama over the next couple years. >> all right. paul, thank you. >> thank you, paul. >> thank you for calling in. i can't wait to watch your show today. >> thanks, joe. >> great talent. >> always a pleasure. >> great to have you on. that does it for us this morning. stephanie ruhle picks up the coverage right now. stephanie. >> thanks so much, joe. thank you, mika. good morning. i'm stephanie ruhle with a lot to cover today starting with the dream team. democrats and republicans head to the white house to discuss a possible daca deal to avoid a shutdown. >> my friends on the democratic side are just dying to get somebody amnesty. i don't think the budget is the place to do that. >> while the president, still holding on to one non-negotiable, at least for them. >> we want a wall. the wall's going to happen or we're not going to have daca. >> critics say paying for the wall could take money away from the people paid to man it. and of course -- >> it's your job to gout

Transcripts For MSNBCW Dateline 20190429

>> he knew an awful lot about her routines, and who she dated. >> reporter: the one who hacked her. >> he is trying to get into her bank accounts, her emails. >> reporter: and a third, who talked to police, then to himself! inside the drawer was a letter in russian. a blonde beauty, with a dark secret. >> there were all kinds of things in anna's life that she didn't tell anybody about. >> she did not. >> reporter: of all the places a beautiful, bright, young russian might end up, frisco, texas might not make your list. but that's where anna kichatova went. and it was here she found what she was looking for. love and success, along with men and women who found her, well, fascinating. >> i met anna after church one afternoon. i was delighted to meet someone who was more, worldly and sophisticated than the run-of-the-mill, suburban american you meet. >> we just had that connection. i cannot describe it in words. i don't think i have words to describe what i -- we felt. >> reporter: like a blossom to bees, the sweet-natured anna attracted a circle of admirers. >> safe to say you had a crush on her? >> you could probably say that, yeah, at some point. >> i don't think she ever had a problem. everybody loved her. well, maybe not everyone. >> reporter: so many people would soon become potential suspects, when someone's love and admiration, turned toxic and deadly. somewhere in that circle of fans, danger was waiting. but if anna saw it coming, she kept it to herself. >> and so she'd listened to your really deepest secrets but she wouldn't -- >> she did. >> give you any of her own. >> no. >> reporter: her friend donna was able to glean a little about anna's exotic past. >> i knew that she was ethnically russian, but born in kazakhstan, and i knew that at some point the family had moved to st. petersburg. where she, i believe, got a degree in economics at the university. i knew she married when she was fairly young and had her son igor. >> reporter: the marriage didn't last long, and the husband dropped out of the picture so there was anna, in her late 20's, with a little boy to support. she wanted a better life, and she made her move when she met an american tourist named bob moses, who'd been invited to visit her english class. he was 19 years older. >> she seemed real nice, real friendly. and had a great smile. and so i just said, you know, "would you like to have lunch?" >> reporter: the answer was yes. lunch turned to dinner, one thing led to another. >> after i left, we communicated. we emailed. before finally, you know, said, "hey, i'd like you to come over. you know, and you know, possibly we have, you know, relationship here together." >> reporter: it was october, 1998. >> she came without her son. she told me she wanted to kinda, you know, check things out before she brought her son over here. so she was here. and you know, we got married in december of that year. >> reporter: two months later, igor came to united states, and suddenly bob had a family. >> reporter: the one-time bachelor was smitten with his young wife and his new four-year-old son. >> little boy. you know-- you know, runnin' around, have fun, you know, he was fantastic. >> reporter: bob formally adopted igor. >> he was my son. you know, i -- you know, i wouldn't consider him anything else. >> reporter: and he meant it. in 2002 fate dealt the family a sucker punch when igor suffered what could have been, a catastropic health crisis, cancer. but with bob's help he pulled through. >> i care about that child. so ah, we did everything possible. >> reporter: they recovered from the setback with igor, and life picked up in frisco, an ambitious little city outside of dallas. bob worked in sales, anna landed a job as a data analyst at the university of texas/dallas. where she met jayshree bihari. >> she came and she met with me and we clicked instantly. >> what made you guys click like that? >> i was new, so she came over and told me about who all are there, in the office and took me around. you know, we met people and we went out for lunch. so it was really nice of her to make me feel very comfortable. >> reporter: anna clicked with a lot of people. like john wiorkowski, a professor at the university, who worked just upstairs from anna. >> she wanted to learn about quantitative methods, that's my specialty, so it just sort of hit, you know. good, good buddies. >> reporter: anna was big on self-improvement. she was taking a course in public speaking, when she met jerry caspell, and he joined her crowd of admirers. >> we used to kinda tease each other. i said, "you used to be my enemy. you were from a communist country." and she thought that was pretty funny, yeah. >> reporter: in donna ross, anna found a kindred spirit. once a professional ballet dancer, donna now teaches dance in frisco. >> she was very passionate about some of the same things i was passionate about. we went to the dallas symphony, we went to the dallas opera, we went to texas ballet theater. >> reporter: as anna's world got bigger, her life with bob began to wither. the marriage that had survived a child's illness faltered over time, and anna surprised everyone when she asked bob for a divorce in 2012. for igor's sake they parted as friends. and anna was again on the lookout for a nice guy. which brings us to michael stodnick. >> michael is a very attractive, very intelligent, soft-spoken young man, about anna's age. he is a professor at the university of dallas. >> reporter: and anna's new man. good looking, age appropriate, a mild-mannered business professor. so with a nice new boyfriend and a good job, anna moses was once again moving on up, until the day in january of 2015, when she didn't show for work. michael said he couldn't get in touch with her, so he contacted police. they went to check on her. >> and so when you get a welfare check call, what do you normally expect to find? 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"clean" meaning didn't look like she'd interrupted a burglary? >> that's correct. that's correct. >> reporter: i mean, there was no stuff missing, drawers pulled open? >> right. >> reporter: something else was telling -- on the floor of the garage was anna's purse, which still held $300. and nothing else seemed to be missing, except anna's car. ranger mankin surveyed the scene with lead detective brian tschudy. >> that's when we notice some shell casings in the garage. um, just multiple shell casings. >> reporter: the casings easily identified the murder weapon as a .22 -- and a careful look at anna's body told them a little more. >> i observed her to be lyin' on her back. she was heavily clothed -- still wearin', you know, her jacket and a couple of scarves. i -- i saw what appeared to be a bullet hole in her -- in her scarf that was wrapped around her neck. and that's when i observed a hole in her neck. >> reporter: so she was killed presumably by somebody who got into the house and waited for her in the garage? >> possibly. yeah. or, um -- she opens the garage door, she pulls in and somebody runs in there, shoots and kills her and takes the car. >> reporter: all right, so -- so an alert goes out for the car, right? >> correct. >> yes, sir. >> reporter: there were so many scenarios under consideration. this didn't feel like a burglary or a carjacking. the medical examiner outlined anna's cause of death. >> he was able to document that she had been shot six times. >> reporter: they found a seventh bullet in anna's clothing that hadn't penetrated. in fact, it fell onto the examining table. the deadly bullet wounds were close together. someone had shot her in the chest, and then in the back. so this is somebody who was probably not too far away from her? >> correct. yeah. >> reporter: and fired a bunch of times? >> correct. >> reporter: the trajectory of the bullets suggested anna had gotten out of her car, perhaps seen her assailant, and started to turn away. >> she doesn't go down with those three rounds. and that's where you have the -- the followin' -- barrage of bullets on her back, um, that are square in her back. >> so, like, if we startle you and the door's right there -- >> yeah. >> -- and you go to turn to run to that door, you're gonna catch it left to right. >> reporter: there was something else -- and it was, at the very least, odd. anna may have been shot seven times, but police found eleven shell casings at the scene. and no sign of the other four bullets. did crime scene ever find the other slugs in the walls or the floor, anywhere? >> no, sir. >> no, sir. >> reporter: that's kinda weird. >> yeah. >> reporter: right? >> yes, sir. >> reporter: so now the detectives turned their attention to the circle of people who knew and loved anna moses. among them could be a clue -- perhaps even a suspect -- and detectives would begin with the person she loved the most. hey, who are you? oh, hey jeff, i'm a car thief... what?! i'm here to steal your car because, well, that's my job. what? what?? what?! 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>> igor. >> igor? i'm jay. >> hi. >> reporter: sgt. reim's body-cam was switched on, but as you can see, it wasn't framed properly. his words, however, were direct and to the point. >> there's really no easy way to -- to tell you what's going on. >> okay. >> okay? um -- your mom is deceased. >> mm-hmmm. >> okay? um, so right now, we've got to do a lot of things to try to figure out how -- why -- >> mm-hmmm. >> -- uh, what's going on. >> reporter: you've done that kind of notification before, haven't you? >> a lot. >> reporter: and they're not pleasant. >> no. worst thing to do. >> reporter: was this one different? >> it -- it was different in the response that i received. >> reporter: in fact, there was basically no response, according to reim. just a blank stare. did he cry? was he emotional? >> not at all. >> reporter: their conversation, if that's what this was, continued. >> is your mom's car usually here? >> yeah. >> okay. >> is it not here? >> no. >> reporter: that's when igor asked a question that seemed to come totally out of left field -- >> is she in one piece? >> yeah. i mean, i -- i -- i don't know exactly. and then that -- that's what we gotta try to figure out. >> reporter: "is she in one piece?" have you ever heard anybody respond like that? >> never. >> reporter: to a death notification. >> never. >> reporter: but it wouldn't be the only response that left sgt. reim scratching his head. >> so i'll let you talk to a detective and -- and we'll go from there, if you're good with that. >> i do have class. even though i know that's kind of insignificant at the moment. >> okay. yeah, i think -- i think you can get an excuse for that. >> reporter: igor never made it to class that night. instead, he was brought here to the frisco police department for a formal interview. investigators had already been briefed about his odd reaction to the news of his mother's death. later, he'd tell her friends he didn't want to have a funeral for her. and also this -- that whoever had killed anna moses should be forgiven. igor said he was in class the night his mom was murdered. but after interviewing him for five hours, investigators were still wondering about his unusual reaction. especially when they learned that right after the interview, that very same night, igor was in the gym playing a game called wally-ball with friends. by no means did he seem to be grieving. >> just kinda added to us needin' to dig a little bit deeper and find out, you know, what was goin' on. >> reporter: this is, what, hours after his mother's been found dead? >> that's correct. >> reporter: and when detectives did dig deeper, they discovered what could be a motive. anna had a $750,000 life insurance policy with just a single beneficiary -- igor. >> he's a person of interest. igor being the direct beneficiary of a large sum of cash, yes, that's someone we're gonna look at. >> reporter: not long after anna's body was found, her friend, donna, read the awful news on facebook from a posting by another friend. that had to be terribly shocking to hear that she'd been killed. >> completely. completely, because i didn't know anyone who wished anna any harm. nobody. i just -- i couldn't imagine it who didn't love anna? >> reporter: and who'd hate her? >> exactly. >> reporter: donna said she could not picture igor as the killer. >> never. never. never. i just know igor is not capable of murder. >> reporter: and another friend, jayshree bihari, remembered how close anna and igor always were. >> she just adored him. her son was like the center of her life. >> reporter: what did she tell you about her son? >> you know, she just said that, "i want him to pursue his passion, which is in music." and she would always go to his concerts. >> reporter: igor played guitar in a christian rock band, combining two big interests -- music and religion. he was studying speech pathology at the u.t. dallas, the same school where his mother worked. >> she used to even wash his clothes on weekends and when he was at the dorm. >> reporter: he's in college and she's still doin' his laundry. >> yes. she will take all his clothes, wash them. iron them. get him some food, homemade food and stuff like that. >> reporter: the last time donna saw anna, anna couldn't contain her excitement about travel plans she'd made with igor. >> she was telling me about her wealthy aunt giving her money so she and igor could go on vacation, and she was really looking forward to that. >> reporter: but as much as anna's friends believed in igor, they still weren't sure what to make of some of his statements. he said that whoever had done this should be forgiven. >> we all noticed it and thought it was unusual. but igor in the last year had become fanatically religious. >> reporter: day one of the investigation, and igor was just the first of the men in anna's life police wanted to talk to. the list would be long. and on it would be some names that would qualify as secret admirers, relationships anna moses had never shared with even her closest friends. >> we cast a broad net. >> reporter: including her ex-husband. clearly, he's gonna be at the top of the list of people you wanna interview? 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>> anna's dead. >> what, what? what are you talking about? >> anna's dead. >> when. how -- how -- how is that possible? >> reporter: the cops, who at that point hadn't revealed how she died, noticed that bob, unlike igor, had a strong response. >> his reaction seemed appropriate. >> he was upset? he was emotional? >> yes. >> my first thoughts were for igor. he's like 20 years old at this time. he just lost his mother. and they told me that he knew, he, you know, knew about what had happened. >> reporter: bob agreed to follow the cops to the frisco pd in his car for a more formal interview. on their way to the station, the ranger can be heard telling his partner that bob had passed the credibility test. >> seemed genuine. >> reporter: one a.m. in a little room downtown. already a long day for mankin, whose back is to the camera, and tschudy, at the table, facing bob. >> we're tryin' to figure out what happened. and, uh, maybe -- when's the last time -- you saw her, spoke with her? >> what do you mean, what happened? i mean, i don't -- >> we have -- we have good reason to believe that anna was murdered. >> oh, my god. >> yeah. >> no. god. how -- how would something like that happen? how would that happen? >> do you know of anybody who would want to harm anna? >> no. i mean, why would somebody want to harm anna? >> reporter: the detectives needed to nail down bob's timeline for the evening anna was murdered: tuesday, january 13th. >> i wasn't really doing anything yesterday. you know, watching tv more than anything else. >> reporter: bob's alma mater, ohio state, had won the national championship monday night, and he said he spent the next day reveling in post-game celebrations and commentary on tv. and, he said, one of the three men he shared his house with could vouch for him. >> who was at home yesterday whenever you were at home? >> um, well, the guy who was there -- right there -- ken. >> ken. >> reporter: bob said it was cold so he never ventured outside until around 7 pm when he drove to twin peaks, a nearby restaurant. police would confirm that on security video, spotting bob wearing his red ohio state jacket. what seemed to matter the most to bob was his son, who needed him now more than ever. >> i should go see igor. you know, i should really go -- see him and talk to him and see how he is. >> from talking to him on the phone -- a couple hours ago, he seemed all right. >> all right? >> yeah. >> how can he be all right? he can't be all right. >> reporter: as the ex-husband, investigators, of course, asked about the broken marriage. bob and anna divorced two years before anna was murdered. >> did y'all ever fight whenever y'all were married? >> i mean, we had disagreements. i mean, that's kinda, why we're divorced. i mean, we just-- we're kinda like, opposites in some ways. >> gotcha. >> reporter: the investigators asked bob if he owned guns, and he said "yes, five of them." three were .22-caliber, the kind of weapon that killed anna. bob readily agreed to let police search his home and take his guns and ammunition. >> we're gonna have to get 'em analyzed. >> bob even provided a dna swab, right on the spot. >> this is a q-tip, a big long q-tip. so i want you to go ahead and rub it on your left cheek. left. >> we use this evidence in -- to help rule you out. >> ok. >> reporter: after being interviewed for about an hour, bob left to find his son. >> when he and i were together. i was, you know, really upset about it. >> reporter: and they never stopped supporting each other. soon, bob and igor moved into anna's house to grieve together. it was another example of the affection for his adopted son that had always impressed anna's friends. >> bob was essentially the only father that igor has ever known. >> and when igor was sick bob definitely delivered? 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>> three areas where blood was located. the seat bottom, the seat back, and the center console. >> what else did you find in the car? >> a red bull can and, a weathered cigarette butt. >> did anna moses smoke or drink red bull? >> not to our knowledge. >> reporter: anna's car was towed to the crime lab where csi techs worked it over. they found no useful fingerprints. the cigarette butt, energy drink can, and bloodstains were all sent for dna testing. results could take weeks or even months. meantime, cops had a killer on the loose. investigators were following anna's electronic footprints, reconstructing her last day alive. >> we had some camera footage that showed her leaving the college at approximately 5:07 p.m. we also got, some footage from, one of the schools nearby, and a taco bell as well. >> she was buying food? >> correct, correct. both were en route to coming back home. uh, she was also captured on a camera, in this neighborhood, and that was at 5:49 p.m. >> so if you believe that she was killed pretty much right after she got out of her car, then around 6:00 seems a plausible time? >> that's correct. >> reporter: while the forensics were being collected, an old-fashioned shoe leather investigation was underway. cops were looking hard at the men in anna's life. starting with her official boyfriend michael stodnick, who had a date with anna the night she was killed, and who reported her missing. detectives invited stodnick downtown and grilled him about his whereabouts the night of anna's death. >> and the boyfriend's alibi is, "i was there at the scene of the murder. i just couldn't get in and i didn't know she was there"? >> right, right. well yes. >> he said he was at um grapevine elementary, getting his daughter's grades. >> reporter: stodnick answered all their questions, but a couple of things left the cops wondering. during the interrogation, he asked if he should get a lawyer. and then later, he did. >> anna's son igor, talks to you freely, doesn't hire an attorney. her ex-husband bob talks to you, doesn't hire an attorney. her boyfriend, however, does. that make you sit up and take notice? >> he does raise the question, "should i get an attorney?" it's right about the time we start askin' for dna. >> reporter: stodnick did eventually provide a dna sample, but that didn't put questions about him to rest. because when the cops left the interrogation room, anna's boyfriend had a private and animated conversation, with himself. >> i have no idea. did i [ bleep ] up? am i overreacting? >> reporter: strange if not downright suspicious. it definitely didn't help his standing on the cops' hit parade of suspects. anna's dear friends, still shell-shocked from the news of her death, were drawn into the investigation. >> what did you know about this guy she was going out with, michael? >> when she started going out with him, she called me to say, "hey, um you know, i've found somebody who i'm seeing." i said, "oh, that's very nice. i'm so happy for you." >> did she tell you anything else about him? >> no. she just said that, "he seems to be, like, a nice person and, uh i'm happy." >> reporter: jayshree had never met anna's boyfriend michael. and most of anna's other friends didn't know her ex-husband, bob. retired ballerina donna ross, who had danced with the joffrey ballet in new york, was one of the few who knew both men. she found bob lacking in the social graces, someone who didn't always recognize the audience he was playing to. >> i hung out with the movers and shakers, the glitterati of manhattan. and for someone to relate to me, as though i were somebody, in a little, small, provincial town in texas, it was pretty insulting. >> and here you were, being sort of looked down on? >> uh yes. he said, "well --" as he pulled up his bermuda shorts, "if you'd ever been to new york city you'd know about the subway." that was one of the -- >> wrong -- wrong thing to say? >> yeah, bob did not feel good unless he was putting someone else down and trying to elevate himself. >> tell me about michael? >> well michael is very low-key, very kind, very sensitive. >> sounds like you approved of michael a lot more than bob? >> oh, absolutely. yes. i mean, michael is 20 years younger than bob. much more handsome, much more intelligent, much more successful, much more accomplished and much wealthier. what's not to like? >> and yet, anna and michael did not get along perfectly, did they? >> oh no, there was lots of -- of squabbling. >> reporter: it was dawning on anna's friends how little they really knew about this enigmatic russian woman. >> in this picture it's me and anna. jayshree today, treasures the gifts anna gave her. like this matroyshka, the famous russian nesting doll. but she also wonders. >> explain to me how you were among her closest friends. >> uh-huh. >> you called her your soul sister. >> i did. and she was. >> and yet there was so much of her life that she didn't tell you anything about. >> yes. >> she never told you. >> no, no. she was very good at dodging things. >> reporter: that was dawning on investigators too. >> when did it become clear to you, that anna moses had parts of her life that she wasn't sharing with anybody else? >> i think through the interview process with friends, family and the people that knew her, it seemed like she had her life compartmentalized. and that certain types of people, she would let into this section of her life, and other types of people she would let closer and give 'em more detail. >> reporter: as her friends and the cops continued to peel back the multiple layers of the late anna moses's singularly opaque love life, she was starting to resemble a real life matryoska. beautiful, intricate, and with a lot unseen. and, detectives were just beginning to tally anna's legion of admirers around the greater dallas area. i must admit. i had a few good tricks to help hide my bladder leak pad. like the old "tunic tug". you know it, right? but i don't have to, with always discreet. i couldn't believe the difference. it's less bulky. and it really protects. watch this. the super absorbent core turns liquid and odor to gel, and locks it away. so i have nothing to hide. always discreet. for bladder leaks. nexgard chew comes power, confidence, reassurance you're doing what's right to protect your dog from fleas and ticks for a full month. this one little nexgard chew is the #1 vet recommended protection. and it's the only chew fda approved to prevent infections that cause lyme disease. plus, it's safe for puppies. there's a lot of power in this one little nexgard chew. nexgard. what one little chew can do. children's claritin nexgardfeallergy relief.of non-drowsy the #1 pediatrician recommended non-drowsy brand. because to a kid a grassy hill is irresistible. children's claritin. feel the clarity and live claritin clear. >> reporter: winston churchill referred to russia as, "a riddle wrapped in a mystery inside an enigma." texas homicide investigators looking into the murder of russian immigrant anna moses were finding the same thing. michael stodnick, her boyfriend who put himself at the scene of the crime, told cops how he met anna. >> she was on match.com. i believe they met through match.com. >> reporter: anna's hard drive revealed he wasn't her first. on match.com, anna had page after page, eleven to be precise, of winks, postings by men who'd admired her photo. and, it wasn't just cyberspace keeping cops busy. lovely anna had plenty of flesh and blood admirers, including jerry caspell, who'd met her years earlier. >> we met at toastmasters. >> which is a speaking club? >> it's for public speaking and leadership, and she was working on her english, of course. and, i kinda tried to help her. >> it sounds as if there was very quickly a connection between the two of you? >> yeah we got to be pretty close friends. she asked me for example to help her with her resume. >> you said keep writing dont forget. >> reporter: jerry, who is married and works for a medical equipment company, is also a poet and songwriter. he says anna encouraged his writing and eventually helped edit a collection of his poems. >> she always raved about poetry. and she said, "i can be your muse." and that's what struck me. i said, "yeah, you can be my muse." what guy wouldn't want a muse, particularly an attractive russian one? >> so i called her my muse. she thought that was great. >> maybe i'm very cynical here, but i do work for "dateline." >> yeah. >> generally, when men describe a woman as their muse, and they're writing poems to her or for her or about her. there's more going on there than just poetry, or at least the man hopes there is. >> yeah. well, there wasn't. it was a deep, deep friendship. i loved her like i would love a sister. >> i'm gonna read you an excerpt of a poem you wrote. "a soft touch to heal my sad soul when it aches. whispered words soothing my heart when it breaks." that's the kind of poem that guys write about their girlfriends. >> yes, maybe it is. uh, she inspired me to write things like that. >> reporter: anna may have been merely jerry's muse, but she was careful to conceal their relationship from her husband, bob while they were still married. >> she made sure i wasn't there if he was coming over or something like that. >> sounds like she was trying to avoid the two of you meeting. >> yeah, that's what it seemed like, and i was fine with that. >> could a reasonable person, an investigator, look at the e-mails and texts between the two of you and conclude that maybe there was -- >> sure. >> something extracurricular going on? >> sure, i got it. >> reporter: investigators were in the midst of their own musings about that relationship, and had some questions for jerry, like whether he had any guns. the poet told them he owned a .22 for target shooting, the came caliber as the weapon that killed anna. and jerry says he was learning things as well. >> i met some of her friends as they were preparing for the memorial, they started talking about her boyfriend. and i said, "i don't know about any boyfriend." so that was quite, quite odd. >> she -- she'd never mentioned michael to you -- >> i never, ever, knew about him until the memorial. >> reporter: and now there was someone else on the cops' radar. remember that neighbor, david stafford, who noticed the police activity outside her house? he was extraordinarily helpful in providing details about anna's love life to detectives. >> i would see one guy. he was around you know for a while and then all of sudden i would see a -- another guy maybe three, four, five months later. um, and then, um, she started dating a third guy. >> reporter: the curious neighbor explained to us how he knew so much about anna's private life. >> you know by sitting here i can see you know everything that went on across the street. and cars driving by and -- and stuff like that. >> reporter: but, he told us he wasn't that interested in the pretty russian divorcee whose dating life he so carefully chronicled. not his type, he said. >> i had never asked her out, no. i mean, she's from a foreign county. she was russian. and her english was with a very heavy accent. and i'm just not attracted to any woman like that. >> reporter: after anna's body was found he had visitors. >> ranger mankin and i went over to mr. stafford's house and uh sat down and talked with him. >> reporter: the neighbor told them he was on a long conference call in his home office at the time anna was killed. >> did he fill in any gaps on the timeline? did he hear any gunshots? >> not really. he didn't hear any gunshots. >> that neighbor seemed to know quite a bit about her. >> yes, he did. and we -- we made note of that, that he knew an awful lot about her routines, as far as who she was dating, who she had dated. >> reporter: tschudy and mankin invited the neighbor downtown for a longer conversation. at the station, david stafford added his dna sample to the investigators growing collection. guys, what's the matter? i heard there were fleas out here. and t-t-t-t-t-icks! and mosquitoooooooooooes! listen up, scaredy cats. we all have k9 advantix ii to protect us. it kills and repels fleas, ticks and mosquitoes, too. lowe's knows you do laundry right. we do it right too, with select whirlpool washers with "load & go" dispensers that go up to up to 40 loads between refills. so you can pour it and ignore it. before discovering nexium 24hr to treat her frequent heartburn, marie could only imagine enjoying freshly squeezed orange juice. now no fruit is forbidden. nexium 24hr stops acid before it starts for all-day, all-night protection. can you imagine 24 hours without heartburn? >> reporter: as homicide investigators struggled to solve >> reporter: as homicide investigators struggled to solve the murder of anna moses, their list of suspects grew longer. >> we have people of interest in -- during this -- and there was certainly a lot of them. >> reporter: anna's life proved full of men who seemed to deserve a second look. there was her son, igor, who stood to collect $750,000 in life insurance. her ex-husband husband, bob, divorced but still in the picture. her soulmate, jerry the poet, who called anna his muse. her boyfriend michael, who admitted he went by anna's home the night of the murder. and that attentive neighbor david, who kept curiously close tabs on anna. but wait. there's more. her colleagues pointed detectives toward another special friend of anna's. >> coworkers indicated that she had a close relationship with dr. wiorkowski. >> reporter: dr. john wiorkowski is a vice provost at u.t. dallas. anna took one of his classes. >> i knew her for about six years. but then about three years or four years ago, what she was doing coincided with something i was doing. so we worked together more, so that's how it sort of -- sort of became friends. she liked music, i liked music. >> reporter: before long, anna and the married professor were spending time together outside of work. as the professor told it, they became even closer around 2012 when anna's marriage hit a rough patch. the two met most mornings for tea and sympathy. >> i would come down around 10:00 and um, uh -- just see how she was doing. and then she -- she would -- we would, you know we might talk about music or lots of times she was trying to improve her english. >> he would go visit her probably twice a day while she was at work. >> reporter: you guys both married? >> yes. >> yes, sir. >> reporter: your wives be okay with that kinda mentoring relationship between you and somebody else -- >> probably -- >> reporter: -- visiting her twice a day and having coffee? >> probably not. >> reporter: lawmen learned that later, while anna was still married to bob, the relationship evolved into a romance. the professor said he ended their fling ended after he concluded the 30-year age difference was simply too much. they went back to being just friends. but clearly for anna, this was friendship with a benefit -- for her. one more fiscal than physical. the professor was quite generous with his time, and his money, even after their romance was supposedly over. how much money did he give anna? >> $46,000. >> reporter: $46,000? >> yes, sir. >> reporter: a man is gonna give $46,000 to a woman that he spends a lotta time with, works with, seems attracted to but there's nothin' goin' on between 'em? >> i think he's liking to pay, um -- to see the -- the happiness that -- that -- that it brings to people's life. >> reporter: anna used some of the money to bring her mother from russia for a visit and to pay igor's college expenses. and the cash kept flowing. the professor gave her another $6,000 just days before her murder. and almost all of this, like so much of anna's life, stayed on the down-low, at least with her friends. what could you tell about anna's relationship with john wirkowski? >> they were friends. very good friends. >> reporter: during the investigation it came out that john and anna had dated for a while. >> really? >> reporter: yes. surprising? >> yes. very. i didn't know that. >> reporter: there were secret relationships that were known apparently only to her and maybe one other person. >> mm-hmm. >> reporter: it's like there were two annas or four annas. >> uh-huh. and i see where she's coming from, because, you know, i know our cultures are like that. i know that people don't share things. >> reporter: the professor explained anna was essentially his personal charity. the cops wondered about his motives. when a man who's interested in a woman basically bankrolls her, gives her 40-something thousand dollars and nothing happens, she's not interested in him, or she says, "you're too old," or you realize you're too old -- um, that can make some guys pretty angry? >> absolutely. obviously we needed to keep diggin'. >> reporter: the professor admits they dated briefly. i'm not sure what "dated" means, but i mean, is he some kind of sugar daddy? >> that's what it appears to be. that he's, you know, givin' her money in maybe hopes that, you know maybe at some point, maybe she would gain some interest in him. >> reporter: when they burrowed deeper into anna's finances, investigators found about $111,000 in her bank accounts, money cops thought her university job couldn't have provided. and the professor's generosity accounted for less than half of that. so all that money begged a lot of questions. >> reporter: was somebody else giving her money? >> i have no idea about that. ah, this is new to me. if she had asked me, i would give her money. if she was in need, i would have given her money. >> reporter: the unaccounted for cash was just another piece in a puzzle that already featured more characters than a hollywood caper. >> this is a good whodunit case. we didn't know a lot at that time and we had to rely on the investigation and the crime scene and evidence to point us to who did it. ♪ uh, uh. 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>> correct. >> reporter: and the first real suspect was one of the first to be cleared. >> igor, the son, not terribly interested in helping law enforcement. says he doesn't want a funeral for his mother, says whoever did this should be forgiven, and he's the beneficiary of a $750,000 insurance policy. >> yes, sir. >> reporter: but, given that police believe anna was killed around 6:00pm. igor had a good alibi. >> where was igor when she was killed? >> in class. >> how far away? >> it's about 45 minute drive. >> you're convinced he was there in class? >> yes, sir. we spoke to classmates. >> reporter: as for igor's odd reaction at the news of his mother's death, friends told police that igor is just that way sometimes. no one who knew him doubted igor was devastated. >> and you've got a neighbor across the street who helpfully keeps very close tabs on anna moses? >> yes. >> translator: okay, the neighbor was nearby, quite nearby, when the -- the murder happened. >> the neighbor is home? >> on a conference call. >> and you can prove he's on the conference call? >> yes. >> yes. >> reporter: so police ruled out the neighbor. but what about the boyfriend, michael? he was supposed to have had a date with anna that night. but detectives say he couldn't have committed the murder. they confirmed he was attending an event at his daughter's school. >> we got the boyfriend signed in, and then he's also on video at the school, grapevine elementary. >> too far away? >> too far away. >> reporter: as for that strange conversation michael had with himself? >> did i [ bleep ] up? >> reporter: in the end, police figured it was just shock, another odd twist in a case full of them. but there were still other people who had spun through anna's orbit, and then shed tears at her memorial. did one of them have a reason to turn on her? that question continued to nag at police as they narrowed the search for her killer. jardiance asks... when it comes to type 2 diabetes, are you thinking about your heart? 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(vo) get more music on us with vip tickets from verizonup. plus get a free galaxy s10e when you buy one. only on verizon. >> reporter: the professor and the poet, it's no sitcom title. this was deadly serious. both were among anna's most ardent admirers, and both were still under suspicion. >> you got a couple of guys who are sort of in the shadows. john, the professor and jerry, the poet. the professor gives her $40,000 and gets back in return, we don't really know what. and the poet thinks of her as his muse. have i got that about right? >> yes. >> yes. >> reporter: did police have questions about them? absolutely. but, days later, investigators came to believe both men were nowhere near anna's house when she was murdered, based on witnesses and, interestingly enough, the same alibi. >> the professor is where? >> on the tollway. >> the poet is where? >> on the tollway, driving. >> reporter: investigators had eliminated a lot of suspects but they hadn't found their killer. they needed a break. and two weeks after the murder, they got one. a mysterious message from anna herself, in essence, from beyond the grave. >> a search warrant was conducted on anna moses's office at ut-dallas and, um, there was a locked drawer. and inside the drawer was a letter in russian. >> reporter: straight from a cold war spy novel. but where would it lead? >> we had to get an fbi agent to come translate the letter for us. >> you don't know whether that's gonna be a great clue or just a shopping list. >> right, right. >> reporter: the note was a mixture of russian and english. in any language, it was a bombshell. it was in her own handwriting, written apparently during divorce proceedings two years earlier. anna was telling a lawyer about a threat from her husband, bob. a convoluted one, but a threat nonetheless. >> basically, the letter translates that, bob was going to kill himself and blame anna. and write a letter to igor, blaming anna to get igor to hate anna. >> all of this presumably, is some way of convincing anna to stay with bob? >> yes, sir. >> reporter: if true, it was a bizarre blackmail attempt that put a more sinister spin on bob's claim of an amicable divorce. >> that letter really kinda gave you a window into what was really happening in that marriage? >> right. if -- if you're suicidal, you're homicidal. that -- that's a real quick switch. >> reporter: that gave detective tschudy and ranger mankin a powerful reason to re-interview bob. but fearing he'd lawyer up, they lured him back to the frisco pd, by saying they had information for him on anna's estate. >> thanks for coming up, bob. we appreciate it. >> reporter: once inside the cramped interview room, the investigators immediately changed the subject to bob's shaky alibi for the day of the murder. turns out, his roommate could not vouch for him or his timeline, as bob had said he would. >> i know it's been a couple of weeks. but if you can remember. >> right now, i have a hard time tellin' you what i did yesterday. it's been so distraught. >> i'm sorry, but that is -- that is vague. >> i'm not tryin' to be vague, it's just i don't have details for you because there's no details. sittin' there watchin' tv, i didn't look at my -- at my phone and go, okay, it's 2:00 and i'm watchin' tv. i wasn't keepin' track of time. >> reporter: he was selling. the cops weren't buying. >> you understand this is a murder investigation? >> i absolutely understand, okay. >> so, anna was murdered. >> i -- yes. >> so when i get this, i mean it's not like a baseball was stolen out of some store. >> right. >> everyone else is bendin' over backwards to accommodate us and now we're catchin' "i don't know, i don't know, i don't keep track of every minute of every day." >> i don't. i can't tell you where -- where i was at 2:00 yesterday. >> reporter: but in bob's first interview at the police station, he did remember going to twin peaks around 7:00pm. the problem is the police think anna was killed an hour before that. >> you see on camera, walking in, sitting down at the bar. >> okay. so maybe if he comes in at 7:00, he left home at 6:45? >> yes. >> yes, sir. >> that's still plenty of time to have been at anna's house and commit the murder? >> correct. >> correct. >> reporter: while investigators were focused on bob's alibi and catching a killer, bob wanted to talk about -- well, just about anything else. like his guns the cops took to examine. >> my guns, can i get those back? >> reporter: the cops said bob changed the subject anytime he felt cornered. >> bob never asked us one time about the killer, how the investigation was going, any leads. but he did ask about the will. >> reporter: anna's will, that was the hook that brought bob to the pd. >> i did have a couple of questions. we're looking to see if anna has a new, or newer, will. >> what did the old will say? do you know? >> well, basically, i gave my stuff to her. she gave her stuff to me. >> but anna restructured her will and didn't tell him? >> bob didn't even know that igor was the beneficiary. bob at that time thought that he was the beneficiary on the will. >> reporter: so maybe bob thought he would be the one cashing in anna's $750,000 life insurance policy, it was money police said he desperately needed. >> he's in over his head financially. anna moses wasn't even cold and in the ground by the time robert moses moved back into the house. so as we're looking at the investigation, who -- who's benefitting from anna's de >> reporter: investigators were smelling the oldest of motives. >> it was all about the money. >> you think bob moses essentially killed his wife by mistakenly thinking that he was gonna get a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow? >> it was a targeted murder. either he was gonna be the beneficiary or he could manipulate igor, to get access to that money. >> reporter: and now, cops were eager to confront the man with a motive. they went in for the kill. >> we either think we're sitting across from a monster or somebody that had a lapse in judgment. >> me? no. absolutely not. >> why not, bob? >> okay. i don't know what you're talking about now, but it sounds like you're accusing me of something. >> we're -- we're fact-finders, okay? >> good. i hope you find the facts. >> you're making it hard for me to find the facts, bob, because you can't tell me [ bleep ]. >> you know what? i'm done -- i'm done talking to you guys. i'm done talking to you, okay? because i don't know everything i did that day, and you're trying to twist all this around now. >> reporter: with that, bob strode out of the room, but not out of suspicion. >> do you guys think you have your man? >> we were pretty confident that he was gonna be our guy. >> reporter: on february 26, 2015, six weeks after anna was gunned down, bob moses was arrested. it was his birthday. he'd spend it behind bars, facing a charge of murder. and that's where we interviewed him. >> did you kill your wife? >> no, absolutely not. i would never hurt anna. >> reporter: it was october, but it felt like summer as the texas sun shone over the collin county courthouse, almost two years after anna moses was murdered. >> all rise. >> reporter: inside the courtroom, bob moses, the man who brought anna to america and who loved and cared for her and her son, was charged with her murder. >> anna was a sweet woman, and you're gonna to see that. and -- >> reporter: prosecutor cynthia walker began to lay out her case for the jury -- >> anna had been shot six times. to the chest, one in the throat, and three in the back. >> reporter: -- telling them the evidence would point to anna's ex-husband. >> and the killer in this room is robert moses. and there will be no doubt in your mind. walker was promising a strong case, but what's a prosecutor to do about all those men in anna's life? she knew the defense would try to cast them as alternative suspects. no shortage of potential persons of interest here? >> anybody who's gonna be in a circumstantial case where there aren't any witnesses, you start looking at people and you say "who are the people closest to her?" you know, boyfriends, friends, uh -- anybody that's had any sort of relations to her. >> reporter: so, in an unusual move, walker decided to preempt the defense and call those men as her own witnesses. she began with anna's boyfriend, michael stodnick, who said he was intrigued by anna the day they met. >> she was an amazing woman. um, she was incredibly intelligent, very well spoken, uh -- extremely kind, and just someone i knew i wanted to get to know right away. >> reporter: the prosecutor showed michael a photo of anna. >> this is how you want to remember ann -- anna? is that correct? >> yes. >> is she a beautiful woman? >> she is. >> reporter: and she asked him straight out -- >> did you kill anna? >> no, i did not. >> reporter: she asked the same of the others -- the neighbor across the street. >> did you kill anna? >> no. >> reporter: the poet. >> did you have anything to do with anna's death? >> no. >> reporter: the professor. >> did you have anything to with anna's death? >> no. >> reporter: everybody can be alibied, not just by their own words but by subsequent investigation? >> yes. >> reporter: except bob moses? >> except bob moses. he was very general, very vague. >> reporter: with the frisco pd detective on the stand, walker played bob's interviews with police. >> what did you do from the time you woke up to -- >> i mean, i probably took the dog for a walk. >> reporter: remember, bob said he'd been at home most of the day and into the evening. but on the stand, bob's housemates all said they couldn't vouch for him. >> do you ever remember seeing bob moses in the house? >> i would say no. i -- i was rarely in the house. >> so on the january 13th, you don't remember -- >> i don't remember seeing him at all. >> reporter: the prosecutor said bob's whereabouts couldn't be confirmed until he appeared on that restaurant video at 7:00 pm. the texas ranger told the jury anna was killed an hour earlier. >> i knew she had left work, her office around 5:00. >> reporter: he mapped out her final trip using videos from the security cameras on her route, including that video from a neighbor's camera right near anna's home. >> she was captured one more time as she was traveling, uh, north on, uh, charleston. >> reporter: even though the time stamp says 6:59 pm, police determined it was actually 5:49 pm when anna's car drove by. >> did you have an idea of when anna was -- when you believe about the time she was killed? >> based on the fact that she's checked her mail, um -- because the -- the mail is strewn underneath her. it's loose. i believe it's soon after she arrives there inside the garage. >> reporter: the police theory -- at about 6:00 pm, bob shot anna seven times -- six bullets found their mark. he then spread four other shell casings on the garage floor, took anna's car, parked it a few blocks away, and tossed in the cigarette butt and the can of red bull. in a weird way, you ended up with too much evidence. i mean, there's all this stuff that is there -- >> uh-huh. >> reporter: -- at the actual scene of the murder, and then later in the car. the -- you know -- >> that didn't make any sense. that's right. it made it feel more like this was designed to sort of throw off the investigation, put somethin' else out there to say, "oh, it -- it could be somebody else." >> reporter: but cynthia walker said it wasn't somebody else. she told the jury bob had been nursing a long-simmering, murderous rage that bubbled to the surface on january 13th, 2015 -- and that anna may have seen it coming. the evidence came from one of anna's russian friends. >> i think we become good friends just from beginning. >> reporter: she dispelled the notion that bob and anna's relationship had been amicable, and told the jury about a harrowing night about two years before the murder. >> in the winter of december of 2012, did you receive a phone call from -- from anna one day? >> yes. >> reporter: anna and bob were still married. anna said she had locked herself in the bedroom. >> did she appear to be upset and crying? >> yes. she told me that, um, she called police. and she said, "can i come to your house? i'm afraid he will kill me tonight." >> reporter: so far, the case was all circumstantial, but the state was about to present evidence that it said pointed directly at bob moses, and only bob moses. when investigators first interviewed bob, the day after anna's murder, they saw something. >> noticed that he had a cut. that he had a bandage that was covering a wound on his, uh, right hand. >> reporter: investigators remembered that bandage when they saw those blood stains inside anna's car. >> and i observed what appeared to be a red, uh, crimson stain on the seatback of her car. >> reporter: blood stains on the right side of the driver's seat, and a wound on bob's right hand. >> is this another stain that i am circling right now? >> yes, it is. >> reporter: and when this dna analyst testified, the prosecution thought it was game, set, match. she told the jury those stains were a mixture of dna -- anna's of course. it was her car. but the other person? he was sitting at the defense table. >> obtaining that mixture profile was one 1.22 sextillion times more likely if the dna came from anna moses and robert moses, than if the dna came from two unrelated, unknown individuals. >> reporter: translation? it was bob moses' blood -- and that second interview with police, he had no explanation for it. >> is there any reason why, um, your blood would be inside of her car? >> not that i can think of, no. >> reporter: the prosecutor told the jury that what pushed bob over the edge on that january night were some of the oldest reasons in the book of murder -- not just money, but jealousy and envy. >> she lives in this beautiful house. she's dating this nice, wonderful man. and then you have robert moses, who's in debt, who's having to live in a house with other men in a small bedroom. who benefited from her death? right after her murder, the defendant moved into her house. he is going through her finances, he is trying to get into her bank accounts -- um, her emails, trying to determine, you know, what her finances are. the evidence points beyond a reasonable doubt to the man, the killer, who is looking at us right now, robert moses. >> reporter: now, the defense was ready to pounce. two attorneys, both of them former prosecutors, were about to try to rip the state's case to shreds. and they would be asking the jury to consider this simple question -- "who ate the quesadilla?" lowe's knows you're a diyer who does spring right. who treats yourself by treating your yard. we do it right, too. with the right plants for your region. so, you stay a step ahead of spring all season long. ♪ protect your pets from fleas and ticks with frontline plus for dogs and frontline plus for cats. its two killer ingredients work fast and keep working all month long preventing new flea infestations on your pet. frontline plus. the number 1 name in flea and tick protection. what sore muscles? what with advpounding head? .. advil is... relief that's fast. strength that lasts. you'll ask... what pain? with advil. ♪ when you have nausea, ♪ heartburn, ♪ indigestion, ♪ upset stomach, ♪ diarrhea... girl, pepto ultra coating will treat your stomach right. ♪nausea, heartburn, ♪ indigestion, upset stomach, ♪ diarrhea... try pepto with ultra coating. even our pets know to go because it's the easiest way to save 30% on all the medications we carry. so skip the search and go directly to petmeds.com now. you inspired us to create internet that puts you in charge. that handles anything. that protects what's important. and reaches everywhere. this is beyond wifi. this is xfi. simple, easy, awesome. >> reporter: bob moses insisted all along that he was innocent. he had not killed his ex-wife. >> were you violent toward your wife? did you ever hit her? >> i would never hurt anna. i would never hurt any woman, okay? >> reporter: and in a north texas courtroom, defense attorneys toby shook and cody skipper argued the state got it wrong. >> the only side that's gonna to be left standing at the end of this is gonna be this one right here. >> reporter: skipper said bob wasn't an angry ex who killed anna for money. he was the victim of an inept investigation. police were sloppy, the defense suggested, and missed big clues. remember, cops concluded this wasn't a robbery. but the credit card anna used at taco bell wasn't in her purse. >> i'm pulling out the wallet so the records clear. point me to where you indicated that anna moses had a missing credit card? >> you probably aren't going to find it. >> give me a -- a page where that's mentioned? >> don't have it. >> a paragraph. >> don't have it. >> her credit card was missing from the purse. and there's no one who knew that in this entire investigative team until they were asked on the witness stand. >> reporter: it was shoddy police work, he told the jury, as was the theory that all the unexplained evidence was planted by bob to throw off the cops. >> what do you make of the extra bullet casings at the crime scene? >> they never sent any detectives across the street to see if any projectiles had struck a fence, a car, a house. >> you mean out the open door of the garage? >> out the opening door. the shooting could've happened while that door was open. and the projectiles could've gone out and struck something. but they admitted they never bothered to look. >> reporter: and that can of red bull? police said it was a red herring but the defense said it was another red hot clue with no follow-up. >> they test it for dna, it comes back to an unidentified male. uh, not bob moses. not any of the other suspects they listed and certainly not anna moses. >> reporter: shook argued dna on the can could have led investigators to a whole new suspect. but he said police focused only on anna's ex. >> they had in this case classic tunnel vision. bob moses was a suspect after the first day and anything else that came up, they didn't pay attention to. >> reporter: the defense also tried to knock down the testimony of the friend who said anna was afraid of bob. >> and she said, "can i come to your house? i'm afraid he will kill me tonight." >> reporter: bob's lawyers pointed out that call was two years before the murder. and after the divorce anna and bob remained on good terms. >> you knew bob was coming over the house, and still fixing things, repairs and picking up igor? >> yes. >> she wasn't telling you when bob comes and fixes the water pipe that's leaking, you -- you know she's afraid of him, was she? >> no. >> reporter: then the defense tried to blow up the prosecution's timeline, saying that video from anna's neighbor was hardly definitive. >> the only thing you can tell this jury about that car was that it's a sedan right? >> yes, sir. >> make? model? color? do you have any information on that? >> no, sir. >> reporter: so maybe that wasn't anna, driving by that camera just before 6 pm. the defense reminded the jury of the last proven -- stop anna had made that day when she pulled up to that taco bell drive through at 5:37 pm. and they asked, "who ate that quesadilla?" >> just the package is found in the trash next to her body. >> so she ate it or the killer ate it. >> she ate it or the killer ate it. >> reporter: the defense called their own forensic expert. >> it's my opinion that that if she had eaten the quesadilla, chicken quesadilla ten minutes prior to dying that i would still be able to see chicken and other identifiable parts of that that quesadilla in her stomach. >> reporter: but there was no mexican food in anna's stomach. >> if she ate the quesadillas, she wasn't killed at 5:55 pm. she had have to be killed a couple hours later at the -- at a minimum. >> reporter: and if the state's timeline was off, then bob moses was in the clear. >> if the killing happens two hours later, well, then bob moses, he's sitting in the twin peaks on video. okay? we know where he is. we're not sure where all these other people are. >> reporter: if the timeline's wrong, said the defense, the alibis of all the other potential suspects fall apart. the telltale quesadilla was never found. if the killer ate it, presumably his or her dna might be all over that wrapper. >> you could have skin cell dna on that. you could have touch dna and you could have fingerprinting on that. >> reporter: skipper asked the lead detective about that. >> you didn't uh submit that taco bell trash uh for touch dna correct? >> correct. >> you didn't submit it for latent prints correct? >> right. >> reporter: the defense portrayed bob as the victim of half-baked police work. but there was another victim the jury was about to hear from. someone who had not only lost his mother, but could now lose his father too. in a hushed courtroom, the defense called their star witness to the stand. >> "my name is igor moses." >> reporter: igor told the jury how he felt about his mother. >> igor, you loved your mother greatly didn't you? >> yes. >> miss her. >> yeah. >> reporter: and igor said he had no doubt his father was innocent. >> i do not believe my father killed my mother. >> reporter: it turned out igor was bob's biggest supporter. he said there was only one reason his dad had returned to living in anna's house. >> uh following my mother's death my grandmother and i both asked my dad to move back into the house. >> reporter: and igor said his dad's actions had nothing to do with greed. >> was he trying to get the money from you? asking you to give him money from the account that he could -- that he could have? >> no. >> reporter: igor even tried to discredit the state's strongest evidence against his father, bob's blood in anna's car. >> is that the car we're talking about? >> yes, that is my mom's car. >> reporter: his dad, he said, had often driven that car and that blood stain on the driver's seat was hardly fresh. for quite a long time. >> do you know how long? >> i mean since high school i d imagine. >> there's no way to tell how long his blood was in that car? >> no. >> no. no. they can't -- they couldn't age the dna. they don't know when the blood was -- was put there. the -- the dna folks could not tell them how old that blood was. >> reporter: even more important, there was no evidence putting bob in the garage where anna was murdered. bob's guns were tested, none fired the fatal shots. and the murder weapon was never found. >> no witnesses. no dna or prints or security video at the crime scene. there's nothin' tyin' him to her body. >> no. >> reporter: shook offered that to the jury. >> why didn't you find the -- the blood anywhere in that garage? why didn't you didn't you find it on her clothing -- his blood? it doesn't make sense. >> reporter: this case said the defense was far from a slam dunk. >> you don't have answers at the end of this case. alls you have are questions. >> reporter: and the final question was, who would the jury believe? >> reporter: the jury had heard the whole tangled tale of friends, lovers, a son, an ex husband, and the woman they all said they loved and adored. jurors sat through seven days of testimony and heard more than forty witnesses, all to answer the question, "did bob moses murder his ex-wife, anna in a jealous rage?" lawyers made their final appeals. the defense said the state's whole case was weak, based on poor police work. >> this investigation, which you rely on to make your decision, is incomplete, it's inconclusive. don't let the fact that "anna moses, an innocent woman, was murdered and i've got to bring someone to justice for her." don't let 'em guilt you into that." >> reporter: prosecutor cindy walker wasn't having any of it. >> ladies and gentlemen, the only guilt, no one's guilting you in to anything. the only guilt that belongs anywhere is with that man right there, robert moses. everything points to him, it points nowhere else. >> reporter: the prosecutor didn't want jurors to lose sight of why they were there. so she made sure a photo of anna was always on display. >> this is anna. she was beautiful woman. >> reporter: now it was up to those six men and six women to decide if bob moses stalked, and shot his ex-wife in her garage that january night. they deliberated for eight hours that first day, and went home for the night. the next day, after their morning coffee, they told the judge they were ready. >> madam foreperson, i understand the jury's reached a verdict. is that correct? >> yes, your honor. >> if you would, please hand that to the bailiff. defendant, go ahead and rise. the state of the texas versus robert arthur moses, "we, the jury, find the defendant guilty of murder as charged in the indictment." >> reporter: bob moses got life in prison. in the back of the courtroom, anna's friends thanked prosecutors and police. >> i was happy that, i could bring them a little bit of justice. >> reporter: at the defense table, bob was left alone with his thoughts. igor, who'd supported his father during the entire case, was not in the courtroom. donna thinks the jury got it right. >> it's very sad that bob would not only ruin and destroy anna's life, he's also destroyed his own. >> reporter: jayshree says the verdict was a relief for anna's inner circle. >> all her friends were crying. all her friends were crying. i mean, we didn't know what to do, to stop the crying. >> reporter: as for bob, he says he's going to continue to fight. >> i'm appealing 'cause i think if, you know, obviously the verdict is 100% wrong. >> reporter: bob chose not to testify at his trial, so we took this opportunity to ask him some questions in jail that he did not face in court. >> how could your blood get in her car? >> bec -- because i was over there workin' around the house. there's small little stains, okay, that could've been there for -- coulda been there a week, a month, it could've been there six months. >> who'd wanna kill her? >> i don't know. i have no idea. it doesn't make any sense to me at all. if you look at all the actual evidence that's out there, okay? first of all, they said that it wasn't a robbery, okay? but if you go through what happened in court, you will find out that they completely missed that, okay? >> i didn't do this. and the person that did is still out there. and the frisco police department have given people a false sense of security over this. >> reporter: the day after the verdict, jayshree went to anna's favorite restaurant. >> i went and sat there and had my breakfast right there, at the table where i met her last. so just feeling her presence and in a way, saying, "okay. there is a closure now." i believe in, life after death and so i'm hoping to see her sometime. >> reporter: donna remembers the little moments, like anna's russian accent and her trouble with the pesky nuances of american english. >> she used to say, "then this afternoon, i go store." and i'd say, "but anna, go to the store." "oh, it's not necessary. why to the? it's so silly. it's not necessary. i go store." >> reporter: and anna will continue posthumously in the role of muse, to jerry the poet. >> "she isn't a dream, she is real as can be, i knew it the moment her wings covered me. she flew from afar and awakened new sight, and only i see her, my angel of light." >> but that handprint doesn't >> but that handprint doesn't belong to the man police put in prison. >> the anger just surged through me. >> now a mother turns detective. >> her words to me, i'll never forget, were i just want

Transcripts For MSNBCW Dateline 20190811

>> he is trying to get into her bank accounts, her emails. >> reporter: of all the places a beautiful, bright, young russian might end up, frisco, texas might not make your list. but that's where anna kichatova went. and it was here she found what she was looking for. love and success, along with men and women who found her, well, fascinating. >> i met anna after church one afternoon. i was delighted to meet someone who was more, worldly and sophisticated than the run-of-the-mill, suburban american you meet. >> we just had that connection. i cannot describe it in words. i don't think i have words to describe what i -- we felt. >> reporter: like a blossom to bees, the sweet-natured anna attracted a circle of admirers. >> safe to say you had a crush on her? >> you could probably say that, yeah, at some point. >> i don't think she ever had a problem. everybody loved her. well, maybe not everyone. >> reporter: so many people would soon become potential suspects, when someone's love and admiration, turned toxic and deadly. somewhere in that circle of fans, danger was waiting. but if anna saw it coming, she kept it to herself. >> and so she'd listened to your really deepest secrets but she wouldn't -- >> she did. >> give you any of her own. >> no. >> reporter: her friend donna was able to glean a little about anna's exotic past. >> i knew that she was ethnically russian, but born in kazakhstan, and i knew that at some point the family had moved to st. petersburg. where she, i believe, got a degree in economics at the university. i knew she married when she was fairly young and had her son igor. >> reporter: the marriage didn't last long, and the husband dropped out of the picture so there was anna, in her late 20's, with a little boy to support. she wanted a better life, and she made her move when she met an american tourist named bob moses, who'd been invited to visit her english class. he was 19 years older. >> she seemed real nice, real friendly. and had a great smile. and so i just said, you know, "would you like to have lunch?" >> reporter: the answer was yes. lunch turned to dinner, one thing led to another. >> after i left, we communicated. we emailed. before finally, you know, said, "hey, i'd like you to come over. you know, and you know, possibly we have, you know, relationship here together." >> reporter: it was october, 1998. >> she came without her son. she told me she wanted to kinda, you know, check things out before she brought her son over here. so she was here. and you know, we got married in december of that year. >> reporter: two months later, igor came to united states, and suddenly bob had a family. >> reporter: the one-time bachelor was smitten with his young wife and his new four-year-old son. >> little boy. you know-- you know, runnin' around, have fun, you know, he was fantastic. >> reporter: bob formally adopted igor. >> he was my son. you know, i -- you know, i wouldn't consider him anything else. >> reporter: and he meant it. in 2002 fate dealt the family a sucker punch when igor suffered what could have been, a catastropic health crisis, cancer. but with bob's help he pulled through. >> i care about that child. so ah, we did everything possible. >> reporter: they recovered from the setback with igor, and life picked up in frisco, an ambitious little city outside of dallas. bob worked in sales, anna landed a job as a data analyst at the university of texas/dallas. where she met jayshree bihari. >> she came and she met with me and we clicked instantly. >> what made you guys click like that? >> i was new, so she came over and told me about who all are there, in the office and took me around. you know, we met people and we went out for lunch. so it was really nice of her to make me feel very comfortable. >> reporter: anna clicked with a lot of people. like john wiorkowski, a professor at the university, who worked just upstairs from anna. >> she wanted to learn about quantitative methods, that's my specialty, so it just sort of hit, you know. good, good buddies. >> reporter: anna was big on self-improvement. she was taking a course in public speaking, when she met jerry caspell, and he joined her crowd of admirers. >> we used to kinda tease each other. i said, "you used to be my enemy. you were from aommust country." and she thought that was pretty funny, yeah. >> reporter: in donna ross, anna found a kindred spirit. once a professional ballet dancer, donna now teaches dance in frisco. >> she was very passionate about some of the same things i was passionate about. we went to the dallas symphony, we went to the dallas opera, we went to texas ballet theater. >> reporter: as anna's world got bigger, her life with bob began to wither. the marriage that had survived a child's illness faltered over time, and anna surprised everyone when she asked bob for a divorce in 2012. for igor's sake they parted as friends. and anna was again on the lookout for a nice guy. which brings us to michael stodnick. >> michael is a very attractive, very intelligent, soft-spoken young man, about anna's age. he is a professor at the university of dallas. >> reporter: and anna's new man. good looking, age appropriate, a mild-mannered business professor. so with a nice new boyfriend and a good job, anna moses was once again moving on up, until the day in january of 2015, when she didn't show for work. michael said he couldn't get in touch with her, so he contacted police. they went to check on her. >> and so when you get a welfare check call, what do you normally expect to find? >> usually go to the house and find, you know, somebody there who didn't wanna talk to the person who's trying to find them. or you know, they've gone somewhere and just not told somebody. >> but this was different. >> yes, sir. imagine if we ever got to meet. we would be such good friends. best friends. advantage ii, kills fleas through contact all month long. i mean he's a wreck without me. advantage ii, fight the misery of biting fleas. oh, come on. flo: don't worry. you're covered. 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"clean" meaning didn't look like she'd interrupted a burglary? >> that's correct. that's correct. >> reporter: i mean, there was no stuff missing, drawers pulled open? >> right. >> reporter: something else was telling -- on the floor of the garage was anna's purse, which still held $300. and nothing else seemed to be missing, except anna's car. ranger mankin surveyed the scene with lead detective brian tschudy. >> that's when we notice some shell casings in the garage. um, just multiple shell casings. >> reporter: the casings easily identified the murder weapon as a .22 -- and a careful look at anna's body told them a little more. >> i observed her to be lyin' on her back. she was heavily clothed -- still wearin', you know, her jacket and a couple of scarves. i -- i saw what appeared to be a bullet hole in her -- in her scarf that was wrapped around her neck. and that's when i observed a hole in her neck. >> reporter: so she was killed presumably by somebody who got into the house and waited for her in the garage? >> possibly. yeah. or, um -- she opens the garage door, she pulls in and somebody runs in there, shoots and kills her and takes the car. >> reporter: all right, so -- so an alert goes out for the car, right? >> correct. >> yes, sir. >> reporter: there were so many scenarios under consideration. this didn't feel like a burglary or a carjacking. the medical examiner outlined anna's cause of death. >> he was able to document that she had been shot six times. >> reporter: they found a seventh bullet in anna's clothing that hadn't penetrated. in fact, it fell onto the examining table. the deadly bullet wounds were close together. someone had shot her in the chest, and then in the back. so this is somebody who was probably not too far away from her? >> correct. yeah. >> reporter: and fired a bunch of times? >> correct. >> reporter: the trajectory of the bullets suggested anna had gotten out of her car, perhaps seen her assailant, and started to turn away. >> she doesn't go down with those three rounds. and that's where you have the -- the followin' -- barrage of bullets on her back, um, that are square in her back. >> so, like, if we startle you and the door's right there -- >> yeah. >> -- and you go to turn to run to that door, you're gonna catch it left to right. >> reporter: there was something else -- and it was, at the very least, odd. anna may have been shot seven times, but police found eleven shell casings at the scene. and no sign of the other four bullets. did crime scene ever find the other slugs in the walls or the floor, anywhere? >> no, sir. >> no, sir. >> reporter: that's kinda weird. >> yeah. >> reporter: right? >> yes, sir. >> reporter: so now the detectives turned their attention to the circle of people who knew and loved anna moses. among them could be a clue -- perhaps even a suspect -- and detectives would begin with the person she loved the most. we're pretty different. we're all unique in our own ways. somos muy diferentes. muy diferentes. 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(vo) quickbooks. backing you. they have businesses to grow customers to care for lives to get home to they use stamps.com print discounted postage for any letter any package any time right from your computer all the amazing services of the post office only cheaper get our special tv offer a 4-week trial plus postage and a digital scale go to stamps.com/tv and never go to the post office again! ♪ "shaving has been difficult for me i have very sensitive skin, and i get ingrowing hairs" "oh i love it. it's a great razor. it has that 'fence' in the middle. it gives a nice smooth shave. just stopping that irritation.... that burn that i get. i wouldn't use anything else" ♪ >> reporter: the bullet-riddled body of 43-year-old anna moses had been found in her garage in a suburb of dallas. now sgt. jay reim had the difficult task of breaking the news to her only child. >> we needed to notify the son. >> he's right there at the curb. >> he's at the curb. so we couldn't not tell him anything. >> reporter: after helping police get into the house, 20-year-old igor moses was waiting outside, sitting in a car. >> what's your name? >> igor. >> igor? i'm jay. >> hi. >> reporter: sgt. reim's body-cam was switched on, but as you can see, it wasn't framed properly. his words, however, were direct and to the point. >> there's really no easy way to -- to tell you what's going on. >> okay. >> okay? um -- your mom is deceased. >> mm-hmmm. >> okay? um, so right now, we've got to do a lot of things to try to figure out how -- why -- >> mm-hmmm. >> -- uh, what's going on. >> reporter: you've done that kind of notification before, haven't you? >> a lot. >> reporter: and they're not pleasant. >> no. worst thing to do. >> reporter: was this one different? >> it -- it was different in the response that i received. >> reporter: in fact, there was basically no response, according to reim. just a blank stare. did he cry? was he emotional? >> not at all. >> reporter: their conversation, if that's what this was, continued. >> is your mom's car usually here? >> yeah. >> okay. >> is it not here? >> no. >> reporter: that's when igor asked a question that seemed to come totally out of left field -- >> is she in one piece? >> yeah. i mean, i -- i -- i don't know exactly. and then that -- that's what we gotta try to figure out. >> reporter: "is she in one piece?" have you ever heard anybody respond like that? >> never. >> reporter: to a death notification. >> never. >> reporter: but it wouldn't be the only response that left sgt. reim scratching his head. >> so i'll let you talk to a detective and -- and we'll go from there, if you're good with that. >> i do have class. even though i know that's kind of insignificant at the moment. >> okay. yeah, i think -- i think you can get an excuse for that. >> reporter: igor never made it to class that night. instead, he was brought here to the frisco police department for a formal interview. investigators had already been briefed about his odd reaction to the news of his mother's death. later, he'd tell her friends he didn't want to have a funeral for her. and also this -- that whoever had killed anna moses should be forgiven. igor said he was in class the night his mom was murdered. but after interviewing him for five hours, investigators were still wondering about his unusual reaction. especially when they learned that right after the interview, that very same night, igor was in the gym playing a game called wally-ball with friends. by no means did he seem to be grieving. >> just kinda added to us needin' to dig a little bit deeper and find out, you know, what was goin' on. >> reporter: this is, what, hours after his mother's been found dead? >> that's correct. >> reporter: and when detectives did dig deeper, they discovered what could be a motive. anna had a $750,000 life insurance policy with just a single beneficiary -- igor. >> he's a person of interest. igor being the direct beneficiary of a large sum of cash, yes, that's someone we're gonna look at. >> reporter: not long after anna's body was found, her friend, donna, read the awful news on facebook from a posting by another friend. that had to be terribly shocking to hear that she'd been killed. >> completely. completely, because i didn't know anyone who wished anna any harm. nobody. i just -- i couldn't imagine it who didn't love anna? >> reporter: and who'd hate her? >> exactly. >> reporter: donna said she could not picture igor as the killer. >> never. never. never. i just know igor is not capable of murder. >> reporter: and another friend, jayshree bihari, remembered how close anna and igor always were. >> she just adored him. her son was like the center of her life. >> reporter: what did she tell you about her son? >> you know, she just said that, "i want him to pursue his passion, which is in music." and she would always go to his concerts. >> reporter: igor played guitar in a christian rock band, combining two big interests -- music and religion. he was studying speech pathology at the u.t. dallas, the same school where his mother worked. >> she used to even wash his clothes on weekends and when he was at the dorm. >> reporter: he's in college and she's still doin' his laundry. >> yes. she will take all his clothes, wash them. iron them. get him some food, homemade food and stuff like that. >> reporter: the last time donna saw anna, anna couldn't contain her excitement about travel plans she'd made with igor. >> she was telling me about her wealthy aunt giving her money so she and igor could go on vacation, and she was really looking forward to that. >> reporter: but as much as anna's friends believed in igor, they still weren't sure what to make of some of his statements. he said that whoever had done this should be forgiven. >> we all noticed it and thought it was unusual. but igor in the last year had become fanatically religious. >> reporter: day one of the investigation, and igor was just the first of the men in anna's life police wanted to talk to. the list would be long. >> reporter: day one of the investigation, and igor was just the first of the men in anna's life police wanted to talk to. the list would be long. and on it would be some names that would qualify as secret admirers, relationships anna moses had never shared with even her closest friends. >> we cast a broad net. >> reporter: including her ex-husband. clearly, he's gonna be at the top of the list of people you wanna interview? 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[ because i'm me" byfrom the 5am wakers, this is us. to the 6am sleepers. and the hope this trip never end-ers everyone uses their phone differently and in different places. that's why xfinity mobile created a different kind of wireless network one that's designed to save you money. by auto connecting to millions of secure wifi hot spots. and the best lte everywhere else. xfinity mobile. it's wireless reimagined. simple. easy. awesome. - the tech industry is supposed in invention and progress. but only 11% of its executives are women, and the quit rate is twice as high for them. here's a hack: make sure there's bandwidth for everyone. the more you know. >> reporter: law enforcement 101: on any murder, talk with the ex. but this time, ranger mankin and detective tschudy were also messengers, arriving at bob moses's house with some bad news. >> i mean, they come at midnight, you know, you -- somethin's happened. and i said, "well, what happened?" >> is my son ok? >> your -- your son's fine. but -- >> some -- somebody else? >> well, that's what we want to talk about. >> reporter: the investigators, who were recording their conversation, preferred to tell bob about anna when they all went to the police station. but his peristence forced their hand. >> tell me what happened here. ok, "well, something happened to anna." what happened to her? >> anna's dead. >> what, what? what are you talking about? >> anna's dead. >> when. how -- how -- how is that possible? >> reporter: the cops, who at that point hadn't revealed how she died, noticed that bob, unlike igor, had a strong response. >> his reaction seemed appropriate. >> he was upset? he was emotional? >> yes. >> my first thoughts were for igor. he's like 20 years old at this time. he just lost his mother. and they told me that he knew, he, you know, knew about what had happened. >> reporter: bob agreed to follow the cops to the frisco pd in his car for a more formal interview. on their way to the station, the ranger can be heard telling his partner that bob had passed the credibility test. >> seemed genuine. >> reporter: one a.m. in a little room downtown. already a long day for mankin, whose back is to the camera, and tschudy, at the table, facing bob. >> we're tryin' to figure out what happened. and, uh, maybe -- when's the last time -- you saw her, spoke with her? >> what do you mean, what happened? i mean, i don't -- >> we have -- we have good reason to believe that anna was murdered. >> oh, my god. >> yeah. >> no. god. how -- how would something like that happen? how would that happen? >> do you know of anybody who would want to harm anna? >> no. i mean, why would somebody want to harm anna? >> reporter: the detectives needed to nail down bob's timeline for the evening anna was murdered: tuesday, january 13th. >> i wasn't really doing anything yesterday. you know, watching tv more than anything else. >> reporter: bob's alma mater, ohio state, had won the national championship monday night, and he said he spent the next day reveling in post-game celebrations and commentary on tv. and, he said, one of the three men he shared his house with could vouch for him. >> who was at home yesterday whenever you were at home? >> um, well, the guy who was there -- right there -- ken. >> ken. >> reporter: bob said it was cold so he never ventured outside until around 7 pm when he drove to twin peaks, a nearby restaurant. police would confirm that on security video, spotting bob wearing his red ohio state jacket. what seemed to matter the most to bob was his son, who needed him now more than ever. >> i should go see igor. you know, i should really go -- see him and talk to him and see how he is. >> from talking to him on the phone -- a couple hours ago, he seemed all right. >> all right? >> yeah. >> how can he be all right? he can't be all right. >> reporter: as the ex-husband, investigators, of course, asked about the broken marriage. bob and anna divorced two years before anna was murdered. >> did y'all ever fight whenever y'all were married? >> i mean, we had disagreements. i mean, that's kinda, why we're divorced. i mean, we just-- we're kinda like, opposites in some ways. >> gotcha. >> reporter: the investigators asked bob if he owned guns, and he said "yes, five of them." three were .22-caliber, the kind of weapon that killed anna. bob readily agreed to let police search his home and take his guns and ammunition. >> we're gonna have to get 'em analyzed. >> bob even provided a dna swab, right on the spot. >> this is a q-tip, a big long q-tip. so i want you to go ahead and rub it on your left cheek. left. >> we use this evidence in -- to help rule you out. >> ok. >> reporter: after being interviewed for about an hour, bob left to find his son. >> when he and i were together. i was, you know, really upset about it. >> reporter: and they never stopped supporting each other. soon, bob and igor moved into anna's house to grieve together. it was another example of the affection for his adopted son that had always impressed anna's friends. >> bob was essentially the only father that igor has ever known. >> and when igor was sick bob definitely delivered? >> was incredibly, kind, and loving and caring to igor when igor was suffering with, ah, cancer. >> there was a little seven-year old boy has-- really, really rare form of bone cancer. >> reporter: everything bob did was to protect igor even the divorce. anna and bob kept it secret for months -- until igor could finish high school. then they made sure it was amicable -- also for igor. >> she said that "he will be coming often to see igor and we are-- we'll be on friendly terms." >> bob also came by the house to do handyman repairs. >> she knew if she called somebody it was gonna be very expensive. and i was like, "well, i can fix it." >> reporter: after interviewing anna's ex-husband and son, police were ready to widen their investigation. more men were on the radar. >> i did not think this was gonna be somethin' easy to solve. >> reporter: and the next man up, anna's current boyfriend, would do something bob and igor didn't do. he lawyered up. ah, it ended to soon. help protect your pet, home, and yard. with the advantage fleaction plan. just look at him! he's a wreck without me, ha... owww. fight the misery of infesting fleas. ♪ ♪ walgreens save your skin today all sun care products are now buy one get one 50% off. how do you keep feeling your best all summer long? 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>> three areas where blood was located. the seat bottom, the seat back, and the center console. >> what else did you find in the car? >> a red bull can and, a weathered cigarette butt. >> did anna moses smoke or drink red bull? >> not to our knowledge. >> reporter: anna's car was towed to the crime lab where csi techs worked it over. they found no useful fingerprints. the cigarette butt, energy drink can, and bloodstains were all sent for dna testing. results could take weeks or even months. meantime, cops had a killer on the loose. investigators were following anna's electronic footprints, reconstructing her last day alive. >> we had some camera footage that showed her leaving the college at approximately 5:07 p.m. we also got, some footage from, one of the schools nearby, and a taco bell as well. >> she was buying food? >> correct, correct. both were en route to coming back home. uh, she was also captured on a camera, in this neighborhood, and that was at 5:49 p.m. >> so if you believe that she was killed pretty much right after she got out of her car, then around 6:00 seems a plausible time? >> that's correct. >> reporter: while the forensics were being collected, an old-fashioned shoe leather investigation was underway. cops were looking hard at the men in anna's life. starting with her official boyfriend michael stodnick, who had a date with anna the night she was killed, and who reported her missing. detectives invited stodnick downtown and grilled him about his whereabouts the night of anna's death. >> and the boyfriend's alibi is, "i was there at the scene of the murder. i just couldn't get in and i didn't know she was there"? >> right, right. well yes. >> he said he was at um grapevine elementary, getting his daughter's grades. >> reporter: stodnick answered all their questions, but a couple of things left the cops wondering. during the interrogation, he asked if he should get a lawyer. and then later, he did. >> anna's son igor, talks to you freely, doesn't hire an attorney. her ex-husband bob talks to you, doesn't hire an attorney. her boyfriend, however, does. that make you sit up and take notice? >> he does raise the question, "should i get an attorney?" it's right about the time we start askin' for dna. >> reporter: stodnick did eventually provide a dna sample, but that didn't put questions about him to rest. because when the cops left the interrogation room, anna's boyfriend had a private and animated conversation, with himself. >> i have no idea. did i [ bleep ] up? am i overreacting? >> reporter: strange if not downright suspicious. it definitely didn't help his standing on the cops' hit parade of suspects. anna's dear friends, still shell-shocked from the news of her death, were drawn into the investigation. >> what did you know about this guy she was going out with, michael? >> when she started going out with him, she called me to say, "hey, um you know, i've found somebody who i'm seeing." i said, "oh, that's very nice. i'm so happy for you." >> did she tell you anything else about him? >> no. she just said that, "he seems to be, like, a nice person and, uh i'm happy." >> reporter: jayshree had never met anna's boyfriend michael. and most of anna's other friends didn't know her ex-husband, bob. retired ballerina donna ross, who had danced with the joffrey ballet in new york, was one of the few who knew both men. she found bob lacking in the social graces, someone who didn't always recognize the audience he was playing to. >> i hung out with the movers and shakers, the glitterati of manhattan. and for someone to relate to me, as though i were somebody, in a little, small, provincial town in texas, it was pretty insulting. >> and here you were, being sort of looked down on? >> uh yes. he said, "well --" as he pulled up his bermuda shorts, "if you'd ever been to new york city you'd know about the subway." that was one of the -- >> wrong -- wrong thing to say? >> yeah, bob did not feel good unless he was putting someone else down and trying to elevate himself. >> tell me about michael? >> well michael is very low-key, very kind, very sensitive. >> sounds like you approved of michael a lot more than bob? >> oh, absolutely. yes. i mean, michael is 20 years younger than bob. much more handsome, much more intelligent, much more successful, much more accomplished and much wealthier. what's not to like? >> and yet, anna and michael did not get along perfectly, did they? >> oh no, there was lots of -- of squabbling. >> reporter: it was dawning on anna's friends how little they really knew about this enigmatic russian woman. >> in this picture it's me and anna. jayshree today, treasures the gifts anna gave her. like this matroyshka, the famous russian nesting doll. but she also wonders. >> explain to me how you were among her closest friends. >> uh-huh. >> you called her your soul sister. >> i did. and she was. >> and yet there was so much of her life that she didn't tell you anything about. >> yes. >> she never told you. >> no, no. she was very good at dodging things. >> reporter: that was dawning on investigators too. >> when did it become clear to you, that anna moses had parts of her life that she wasn't sharing with anybody else? >> i think through the interview process with friends, family and the people that knew her, it seemed like she had her life compartmentalized. and that certain types of people, she would let into this section of her life, and other types of people she would let closer and give 'em more detail. >> reporter: as her friends and the cops continued to peel back the multiple layers of the late anna moses's singularly opaque love life, she was starting to resemble a real life matryoska. beautiful, intricate, and with a lot unseen. and, detectives were just beginning to tally anna's legion of admirers around the greater dallas area. you wouldn't accept an incomplete job from any one else. why accept it from your allergy pills? flonase relieves your worst symptoms including nasal congestion, which most pills don't. flonase helps block 6 key inflammatory substances. most pills only block one. flonase. 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"a soft touch to heal my sad soul when it aches. whispered words soothing my heart when it breaks." that's the kind of poem that guys write about their girlfriends. >> yes, maybe it is. uh, she inspired me to write things like that. >> reporter: anna may have been merely jerry's muse, but she was careful to conceal their relationship from her husband, bob while they were still married. >> she made sure i wasn't there if he was coming over or something like that. >> sounds like she was trying to avoid the two of you meeting. >> yeah, that's what it seemed like, and i was fine with that. >> could a reasonable person, an investigator, look at the e-mails and texts between the two of you and conclude that maybe there was -- >> sure. >> something extracurricular going on? >> sure, i got it. >> reporter: investigators were in the midst of their own musings about that relationship, and had some questions for jerry, like whether he had any guns. the poet told them he owned a .22 for target shooting, the came caliber as the weapon that killed anna. and jerry says he was learning things as well. >> i met some of her friends as they were preparing for the memorial, they started talking about her boyfriend. and i said, "i don't know about any boyfriend." so that was quite, quite odd. >> she -- she'd never mentioned michael to you -- >> i never, ever, knew about him until the memorial. >> reporter: and now there was someone else on the cops' radar. remember that neighbor, david stafford, who noticed the police activity outside her house? he was extraordinarily helpful in providing details about anna's love life to detectives. >> i would see one guy. he was around you know for a while and then all of sudden i would see a -- another guy maybe three, four, five months later. um, and then, um, she started dating a third guy. >> reporter: the curious neighbor explained to us how he knew so much about anna's private life. >> you know by sitting here i can see you know everything that went on across the street. and cars driving by and -- and stuff like that. >> reporter: but, he told us he wasn't that interested in the pretty russian divorcee whose dating life he so carefully chronicled. not his type, he said. >> i had never asked her out, no. i mean, she's from a foreign county. she was russian. and her english was with a very heavy accent. and i'm just not attracted to any woman like that. >> reporter: after anna's body was found he had visitors. >> ranger mankin and i went over to mr. stafford's house and uh sat down and talked with him. >> reporter: the neighbor told them he was on a long conference call in his home office at the time anna was killed. >> did he fill in any gaps on the timeline? did he hear any gunshots? >> not really. he didn't hear any gunshots. >> that neighbor seemed to know quite a bit about her. >> yes, he did. and we -- we made note of that, that he knew an awful lot about her routines, as far as who she was dating, who she had dated. >> reporter: tschudy and mankin invited the neighbor downtown for a longer conversation. at the station, david stafford added his dna sample to the investigators growing collection. imagine if we ever got to meet. we would be such good friends. best friends. advantage ii, kills fleas through contact all month long. i mean he's a wreck without me. advantage ii, fight the misery of biting fleas. oh, come on. flo: don't worry. you're covered. 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>> yes. >> yes, sir. >> reporter: your wives be okay with that kinda mentoring relationship between you and somebody else -- >> probably -- >> reporter: -- visiting her twice a day and having coffee? >> probably not. >> reporter: lawmen learned that later, while anna was still married to bob, the relationship evolved into a romance. the professor said he ended their fling ended after he concluded the 30-year age difference was simply too much. they went back to being just friends. but clearly for anna, this was friendship with a benefit -- for her. one more fiscal than physical. the professor was quite generous with his time, and his money, even after their romance was supposedly over. how much money did he give anna? >> $46,000. >> reporter: $46,000? >> yes, sir. >> reporter: a man is gonna give $46,000 to a woman that he spends a lotta time with, works with, seems attracted to but there's nothin' goin' on between 'em? >> i think he's liking to pay, um -- to see the -- the happiness that -- that -- that it brings to people's life. >> reporter: anna used some of the money to bring her mother from russia for a visit and to pay igor's college expenses. and the cash kept flowing. the professor gave her another $6,000 just days before her murder. and almost all of this, like so much of anna's life, stayed on the down-low, at least with her friends. what could you tell about anna's relationship with john wirkowski? >> they were friends. very good friends. >> reporter: during the investigation it came out that john and anna had dated for a while. >> really? >> reporter: yes. surprising? >> yes. very. i didn't know that. >> reporter: there were secret relationships that were known apparently only to her and maybe one other person. >> mm-hmm. >> reporter: it's like there were two annas or four annas. >> uh-huh. and i see where she's coming from, because, you know, i know our cultures are like that. i know that people don't share things. >> reporter: the professor explained anna was essentially his personal charity. the cops wondered about his motives. when a man who's interested in a woman basically bankrolls her, gives her 40-something thousand dollars and nothing happens, she's not interested in him, or she says, "you're too old," or you realize you're too old -- um, that can make some guys pretty angry? >> absolutely. obviously we needed to keep diggin'. >> reporter: the professor admits they dated briefly. i'm not sure what "dated" means, but i mean, is he some kind of sugar daddy? >> that's what it appears to be. that he's, you know, givin' her money in maybe hopes that, you know maybe at some point, maybe she would gain some interest in him. >> reporter: when they burrowed deeper into anna's finances, investigators found about $111,000 in her bank accounts, money cops thought her university job couldn't have provided. and the professor's generosity accounted for less than half of that. so all that money begged a lot of questions. >> reporter: was somebody else giving her money? >> i have no idea about that. ah, this is new to me. if she had asked me, i would give her money. if she was in need, i would have given her money. >> reporter: the unaccounted for cash was just another piece in a puzzle that already featured more characters than a hollywood caper. >> this is a good whodunit case. we didn't know a lot at that time and we had to rely on the investigation and the crime scene and evidence to point us to who did it. can my side be firm? and my side super soft? with the sleep number 360 smart bed it can... with your sleep number setting. can it help keep me asleep? yes, it senses your movements and automatically adjusts to keep you both comfortable. it's your last chance to save up to $600 on select sleep number 360 smart beds. ends wednesday. >> reporter: the many heart-broken friends of anna moses crowded into her memorial service ten days after her murder. jerry played this song. he wrote it just for her. >> we don't know what we'll do without you, we could never doubt you, to brighten up our day. we can't think of anything about you, anna, that doesn't make us feel so glad you've come our way. >> reporter: it was time to say goodbye, except for many of her friends, who were saying hello because many were meeting each other, even learning about each other, for the first time. >> there were all kinds of things in anna's life that she didn't tell anybody about. >> she did not. >> there were relationships that were not known by her closest friends. >> uh-huh. >> reporter: jerry says he didn't even know who anna's ex-husband was, until well after the service. >> he got up and talked about meeting her for the first time in -- i think in st. petersburg. and he started crying, and it wasn't until maybe a day later that i talked to one of her friends and they said that was bob. >> reporter: bob says he had a hard time holding it together. >> at the memorial service when i spoke about her, i was extremely emotional. in fact, i had to have somebody bring a tissue because it was so upsetting to me to talk about this. >> reporter: anna's son, igor also managed to speak -- but it wasn't easy for him, or for anyone. they shared their grief that day, their memories -- but on another level they were also sharing a few suspicions. donna knew the odds. anna was probably killed by someone close to her. and that someone could have been at that very service, putting on a show. >> you know, the fact that somebody cries on the stand or at a funeral or so on and so forth, well, of course. i mean, if they've just committed a crime and-- and-- yes, they can still cry. >> grief does not imply innocence. >> no, absolutely not. >> reporter: in the days that followed, detectives would consider the cast of characters who had reveled in the glow of the anna moses starlight, and then mourned her passing. and some began to drop off the list of suspects. including anyone she might have recently met from online dating. >> so anna did have a match.com account. but she hadn't been on it, or actively searching or looking, to our knowledge. and that's verified through the match.com records. >> so at least from match.com, she wasn't dating anybody except the boyfriend? >> correct. >> reporter: and the first real suspect was one of the first to be cleared. >> igor, the son, not terribly interested in helping law enforcement. says he doesn't want a funeral for his mother, says whoever did this should be forgiven, and he's the beneficiary of a $750,000 insurance policy. >> yes, sir. >> reporter: but, given that police believe anna was killed around 6:00pm. igor had a good alibi. >> where was igor when she was killed? >> in class. >> how far away? >> it's about 45 minute drive. >> you're convinced he was there in class? >> yes, sir. we spoke to classmates. >> reporter: as for igor's odd reaction at the news of his mother's death, friends told police that igor is just that way sometimes. no one who knew him doubted igor was devastated. >> and you've got a neighbor across the street who helpfully keeps very close tabs on anna moses? >> yes. >> translator: okay, the neighbor was nearby, quite nearby, when the -- the murder happened. >> the neighbor is home? >> on a conference call. >> and you can prove he's on the conference call? >> yes. >> yes. >> reporter: so police ruled out the neighbor. but what about the boyfriend, michael? he was supposed to have had a date with anna that night. but detectives say he couldn't have committed the murder. they confirmed he was attending an event at his daughter's school. >> we got the boyfriend signed in, and then he's also on video at the school, grapevine elementary. >> too far away? >> too far away. >> reporter: as for that strange conversation michael had with himself? >> did i [ bleep ] up? >> reporter: in the end, police figured it was just shock, another odd twist in a case full of them. but there were still other people who had spun through anna's orbit, and then shed tears at her memorial. did one of them have a reason to turn on her? that question continued to nag at police as they narrowed the search for her killer. ♪ ♪ protect your pet with the #1 name in flea and tick protection. frontline plus. trusted by vets for nearly 20 years. is skincare from around the wobetter than olay? 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>> i absolutely understand, okay. >> so, anna was murdered. >> i -- yes. >> so when i get this, i mean it's not like a baseball was stolen out of some store. >> right. >> everyone else is bendin' over backwards to accommodate us and now we're catchin' "i don't know, i don't know, i don't keep track of every minute of every day." >> i don't. i can't tell you where -- where i was at 2:00 yesterday. >> reporter: but in bob's first interview at the police station, he did remember going to twin peaks around 7:00pm. the problem is the police think anna was killed an hour before that. >> you see on camera, walking in, sitting down at the bar. >> okay. so maybe if he comes in at 7:00, he left home at 6:45? >> yes. >> yes, sir. >> that's still plenty of time to have been at anna's house and commit the murder? >> correct. >> correct. >> reporter: while investigators were focused on bob's alibi and catching a killer, bob wanted to talk about -- well, just about anything else. like his guns the cops took to examine. >> my guns, can i get those back? >> reporter: the cops said bob changed the subject anytime he felt cornered. >> bob never asked us one time about the killer, how the investigation was going, any leads. but he did ask about the will. >> reporter: anna'will, that was the hook that brought bob to the pd. >> i did have a couple of questions. we're looking to see if anna has a new, or newer, will. >> what did the old will say? do you know? >> well, basically, i gave my stuff to her. she gave her stuff to me. >> but anna restructured her will and didn't tell him? >> bob didn't even know that igor was the beneficiary. bob at that time thought that he was the beneficiary on the will. >> reporter: so maybe bob thought he would be the one cashing in anna's $750,000 life insurance policy, it was money police said he desperately needed. >> he's in over his head financially. anna moses wasn't even cold and in the ground by the time robert moses moved back into the house. so as we're looking at the investigation, who -- who's benefitting from anna's death? >> reporter: investigators were smelling the oldest of motives. >> it was all about the money. >> you think bob moses essentially killed his wife by mistakenly thinking that he was gonna get a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow? >> it was a targeted murder. either he was gonna be the beneficiary or he could manipulate igor, to get access to that money. >> reporter: and now, cops were eager to confront the man with a motive. they went in for the kill. >> we either think we're sitting across from a monster or somebody that had a lapse in judgment. >> me? no. absolutely not. >> why not, bob? >> okay. i don't know what you're talking about now, but it sounds like you're accusing me of something. >> we're -- we're fact-finders, okay? >> good. i hope you find the facts. >> you're making it hard for me to find the facts, bob, because you can't tell me [ bleep ]. >> you know what? i'm done -- i'm done talking to you guys. i'm done talking to you, okay? because i don't know everything i did that day, and you're trying to twist all this around now. >> reporter: with that, bob strode out of the room, but not out of suspicion. >> do you guys think you have your man? 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she knew the defense would try to cast them as alternative suspects. no shortage of potential persons of interest here? >> anybody who's gonna be in a circumstantial case where there aren't any witnesses, you start looking at people and you say "who are the people closest to her?" you know, boyfriends, friends, uh -- anybody that's had any sort of relations to her. >> reporter: so, in an unusual move, walker decided to preempt the defense and call those men as her own witnesses. she began with anna's boyfriend, michael stodnick, who said he was intrigued by anna the day they met. >> she was an amazing woman. um, she was incredibly intelligent, very well spoken, uh -- extremely kind, and just someone i knew i wanted to get to know right away. >> reporter: the prosecutor showed michael a photo of anna. >> this is how you want to remember ann -- anna? is that correct? >> yes. >> is she a beautiful woman? >> she is. >> reporter: and she asked him straight out -- >> did you kill anna? >> no, i did not. >> reporter: she asked the same of the others -- the neighbor across the street. >> did you kill anna? >> no. >> reporter: the poet. >> did you have anything to do with anna's death? >> no. >> reporter: the professor. >> did you have anything to with anna's death? >> no. >> reporter: everybody can be alibied, not just by their own words but by subsequent investigation? >> yes. >> reporter: except bob moses? >> except bob moses. he was very general, very vague. >> reporter: with the frisco pd detective on the stand, walker played bob's interviews with police. >> what did you do from the time you woke up to -- >> i mean, i probably took the dog for a walk. >> reporter: remember, bob said he'd been at home most of the day and into the evening. but on the stand, bob's housemates all said they couldn't vouch for him. >> do you ever remember seeing bob moses in the house? >> i would say no. i -- i was rarely in the house. >> so on the january 13th, you don't remember -- >> i don't remember seeing him at all. >> reporter: the prosecutor said bob's whereabouts couldn't be confirmed until he appeared on that restaurant video at 7:00 pm. the texas ranger told the jury anna was killed an hour earlier. >> i knew she had left work, her office around 5:00. >> reporter: he mapped out her final trip using videos from the security cameras on her route, including that video from a neighbor's camera right near anna's home. >> she was captured one more time as she was traveling, uh, north on, uh, charleston. >> reporter: even though the time stamp says 6:59 pm, police determined it was actually 5:49 pm when anna's car drove by. >> did you have an idea of when anna was -- when you believe about the time she was killed? >> based on the fact that she's checked her mail, um -- because the -- the mail is strewn underneath her. it's loose. i believe it's soon after she arrives there inside the garage. >> reporter: the police theory -- at about 6:00 pm, bob shot anna seven times -- six bullets found their mark. he then spread four other shell casings on the garage floor, took anna's car, parked it a few blocks away, and tossed in the cigarette butt and the can of red bull. in a weird way, you ended up with too much evidence. i mean, there's all this stuff that is there -- >> uh-huh. >> reporter: -- at the actual scene of the murder, and then later in the car. the -- you know -- >> that didn't make any sense. that's right. it made it feel more like this was designed to sort of throw off the investigation, put somethin' else out there to say, "oh, it -- it could be somebody else." >> reporter: but cynthia walker said it wasn't somebody else. she told the jury bob had been nursing a long-simmering, murderous rage that bubbled to the surface on january 13th, 2015 -- and that anna may have seen it coming. the evidence came from one of anna's russian friends. >> i think we become good friends just from beginning. >> reporter: she dispelled the notion that bob and anna's relationship had been amicable, and told the jury about a harrowing night about two years before the murder. >> in the winter of december of 2012, did you receive a phone call from -- from anna one day? >> yes. >> reporter: anna and bob were still married. anna said she had locked herself in the bedroom. >> did she appear to be upset and crying? >> yes. she told me that, um, she called police. and she said, "can i come to your house? i'm afraid he will kill me tonight." >> reporter: so far, the case was all circumstantial, but the state was about to present evidence that it said pointed directly at bob moses, and only bob moses. when investigators first interviewed bob, the day after anna's murder, they saw something. >> noticed that he had a cut. that he had a bandage that was covering a wound on his, uh, right hand. >> reporter: investigators remembered that bandage when they saw those blood stains inside anna's car. >> and i observed what appeared to be a red, uh, crimson stain on the seatback of her car. >> reporter: blood stains on the right side of the driver's seat, and a wound on bob's right hand. >> is this another stain that i am circling right now? >> yes, it is. >> reporter: and when this dna analyst testified, the prosecution thought it was game, set, match. she told the jury those stains were a mixture of dna -- anna's of course. it was her car. but the other person? he was sitting at the defense table. >> obtaining that mixture profile was one 1.22 sextillion times more likely if the dna came from anna moses and robert moses, than if the dna came from two unrelated, unknown individuals. >> reporter: translation? it was bob moses' blood -- and that second interview with police, he had no explanation for it. >> is there any reason why, um, your blood would be inside of her car? >> not that i can think of, no. >> reporter: the prosecutor told the jury that what pushed bob over the edge on that january night were some of the oldest reasons in the book of murder -- not just money, but jealousy and envy. >> she lives in this beautiful house. she's dating this nice, wonderful man. and then you have robert moses, who's in debt, who's having to live in a house with other men in a small bedroom. who benefited from her death? right after her murder, the defendant moved into her house. he is going through her finances, he is trying to get into her bank accounts -- um, her emails, trying to determine, you know, what her finances are. the evidence points beyond a reasonable doubt to the man, the killer, who is looking at us right now, robert moses. >> reporter: now, the defense was ready to pounce. two attorneys, both of them former prosecutors, were about to try to rip the state's case to shreds. and they would be asking the jury to consider this simple question -- "who ate the quesadilla?" you wouldn't accept an incomplete job from any one else. why accept it from your allergy pills? 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>> i would never hurt anna. i would never hurt any woman, okay? >> reporter: and in a north texas courtroom, defense attorneys toby shook and cody skipper argued the state got it wrong. >> the only side that's gonna to be left standing at the end of this is gonna be this one right here. >> reporter: skipper said bob wasn't an angry ex who killed anna for money. he was the victim of an inept investigation. police were sloppy, the defense suggested, and missed big clues. remember, cops concluded this wasn't a robbery. but the credit card anna used at taco bell wasn't in her purse. >> i'm pulling out the wallet so the records clear. point me to where you indicated that anna moses had a missing credit card? >> you probably aren't going to find it. >> give me a -- a page where that's mentioned? >> don't have it. >> a paragraph. >> don't have it. >> her credit card was missing from the purse. and there's no one who knew that in this entire investigative team until they were asked on the witness stand. >> reporter: it was shoddy police work, he told the jury, as was the theory that all the unexplained evidence was planted by bob to throw off the cops. >> what do you make of the extra bullet casings at the crime scene? >> they never sent any detectives across the street to see if any projectiles had struck a fence, a car, a house. >> you mean out the open door of the garage? >> out the opening door. the shooting could've happened while that door was open. and the projectiles could've gone out and struck something. but they admitted they never bothered to look. >> reporter: and that can of red bull? police said it was a red herring but the defense said it was another red hot clue with no follow-up. >> they test it for dna, it comes back to an unidentified male. uh, not bob moses. not any of the other suspects they listed and certainly not anna moses. >> reporter: shook argued dna on the can could have led investigators to a whole new suspect. but he said police focused only on anna's ex. >> they had in this case classic tunnel vision. bob moses was a suspect after the first day and anything else that came up, they didn't pay attention to. >> reporter: the defense also tried to knock down the testimony of the friend who said anna was afraid of bob. >> and she said, "can i come to your house? i'm afraid he will kill me tonight." >> reporter: bob's lawyers pointed out that call was two years before the murder. and after the divorce anna and bob remained on good terms. >> you knew bob was coming over the house, and still fixing things, repairs and picking up igor? >> yes. >> she wasn't telling you when bob comes and fixes the water pipe that's leaking, you -- you know she's afraid of him, was she? >> no. >> reporter: then the defense tried to blow up the prosecution's timeline, saying that video from anna's neighbor was hardly definitive. >> the only thing you can tell this jury about that car was that it's a sedan right? >> yes, sir. >> make? model? color? do you have any information on that? >> no, sir. >> reporter: so maybe that wasn't anna, driving by that camera just before 6 pm. the defense reminded the jury of the last proven -- stop anna had made that day when she pulled up to that taco bell drive through at 5:37 pm. and they asked, "who ate that quesadilla?" >> just the package is found in the trash next to her body. >> so she ate it or the killer ate it. >> she ate it or the killer ate it. >> reporter: the defense called their own forensic expert. >> it's my opinion that that if she had eaten the quesadilla, chicken quesadilla ten minutes prior to dying that i would still be able to see chicken and other identifiable parts of that that quesadilla in her stomach. >> reporter: but there was no mexican food in anna's stomach. >> if she ate the quesadillas, she wasn't killed at 5:55 pm. she had have to be killed a couple hours later at the -- at a minimum. >> reporter: and if the state's timeline was off, then bob moses was in the clear. >> if the killing happens two hours later, well, then bob moses, he's sitting in the twin peaks on video. okay? we know where he is. we're not sure where all these other people are. >> reporter: if the timeline's wrong, said the defense, the alibis of all the other potential suspects fall apart. the telltale quesadilla was never found. if the killer ate it, presumably his or her dna might be all over that wrapper. >> you could have skin cell dna on that. you could have touch dna and you could have fingerprinting on that. >> reporter: skipper asked the lead detective about that. >> you didn't uh submit that taco bell trash uh for touch dna correct? >> correct. >> you didn't submit it for latent prints correct? >> right. >> reporter: the defense portrayed bob as the victim of half-baked police work. but there was another victim the jury was about to hear from. someone who had not only lost his mother, but could now lose his father too. in a hushed courtroom, the defense called their star witness to the stand. >> "my name is igor moses." >> reporter: igor told the jury how he felt about his mother. >> igor, you loved your mother greatly didn't you? >> yes. >> miss her. >> yeah. >> reporter: and igor said he had no doubt his father was innocent. >> i do not believe my father killed my mother. >> reporter: it turned out igor was bob's biggest supporter. he said there was only one reason his dad had returned to living in anna's house. >> uh following my mother's death my grandmother and i both asked my dad to move back into the house. >> reporter: and igor said his dad's actions had nothing to do with greed. >> was he trying to get the money from you? asking you to give him money from the account that he could -- that he could have? >> no. >> reporter: igor even tried to discredit the state's strongest evidence against his father, bob's blood in anna's car. >> is that the car we're talking about? >> yes, that is my mom's car. >> reporter: his dad, he said, had often driven that car and that blood stain on the driver's seat was hardly fresh. >> yeah that one's been there for quite a long time. >> do you know how long? >> i mean since high school i would imagine. >> there's no way to tell how long his blood was in that car? >> no. >> no. no. they can't -- they couldn't age the dna. they don't know when the blood was -- was put there. the -- the dna folks could not tell them how old that blood was. >> reporter: even more important, there was no evidence putting bob in the garage where anna was murdered. bob's guns were tested, none fired the fatal shots. and the murder weapon was never found. >> no witnesses. no dna or prints or security video at the crime scene. there's nothin' tyin' him to her body. >> no. >> reporter: shook offered that to the jury. >> why didn't you find the -- the blood anywhere in that garage? why didn't you didn't you find it on her clothing -- his blood? it doesn't make sense. >> reporter: this case said the defense was far from a slam dunk. >> you don't have answers at the end of this case. alls you have are questions. >> reporter: and the final question was, who would the jury believe? 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(vo) snap and sort your expenses to save over $4,600 at tax time. quickbooks. backing you. >> reporter: the jury had heard the whole tangled tale of friends, lovers, a son, an ex husband, and the woman they all said they loved and adored. jurors sat through seven days of testimony and heard more than forty witnesses, all to answer the question, "did bob moses murder his ex-wife, anna in a jealous rage?" lawyers made their final appeals. the defense said the state's whole case was weak, based on poor police work. >> this investigation, which you rely on to make your decision, is incomplete, it's inconclusive. don't let the fact that "anna moses, an innocent woman, was murdered and i've got to bring someone to justice for her." don't let 'em guilt you into that." >> reporter: prosecutor cindy walker wasn't having any of it. >> ladies and gentlemen, the only guilt, no one's guilting you in to anything. the only guilt that belongs anywhere is with that man right there, robert moses. everything points to him, it points nowhere else. >> reporter: the prosecutor didn't want jurors to lose sight of why they were there. so she made sure a photo of anna was always on display. >> this is anna. she was beautiful woman. >> reporter: now it was up to those six men and six women to decide if bob moses stalked, and shot his ex-wife in her garage that january night. they deliberated for eight hours that first day, and went home for the night. the next day, after their morning coffee, they told the judge they were ready. >> madam foreperson, i understand the jury's reached a verdict. is that correct? >> yes, your honor. >> if you would, please hand that to the bailiff. defendant, go ahead and rise. the state of the texas versus robert arthur moses, "we, the jury, find the defendant guilty of murder as charged in the indictment." >> reporter: bob moses got life in prison. in the back of the courtroom, anna's friends thanked prosecutors and police. >> i was happy that, i could bring them a little bit of justice. >> reporter: at the defense table, bob was left alone with his thoughts. igor, who'd supported his father during the entire case, was not in the courtroom. donna thinks the jury got it right. >> it's very sad that bob would not only ruin and destroy anna's life, he's also destroyed his own. >> reporter: jayshree says the verdict was a relief for anna's inner circle. >> all her friends were crying. all her friends were crying. i mean, we didn't know what to do, to stop the crying. >> reporter: as for bob, he says he's going to continue to fight. >> i'm appealing 'cause i think if, you know, obviously the verdict is 100% wrong. >> reporter: bob chose not to testify at his trial, so we took this opportunity to ask him some questions in jail that he did not face in court. >> how could your blood get in her car? >> bec -- because i was over there workin' around the house. there's small little stains, okay, that could've been there for -- coulda been there a week, a month, it could've been there six months. >> who'd wanna kill her? >> i don't know. i have no idea. it doesn't make any sense to me at all. if you look at all the actual evidence that's out there, okay? first of all, they said that it wasn't a robbery, okay? but if you go through what happened in court, you will find out that they completely missed that, okay? >> i didn't do this. and the person that did is still out there. and the frisco police department have given people a false sense of security over this. >> reporter: the day after the verdict, jayshree went to anna's favorite restaurant. >> i went and sat there and had my breakfast right there, at the table where i met her last. so just feeling her presence and in a way, saying, "okay. there is a closure now." i believe in, life after death and so i'm hoping to see her sometime. >> reporter: donna remembers the little moments, like anna's russian accent and her trouble with the pesky nuances of american english. >> she used to say, "then this afternoon, i go store." and i'd say, "but anna, go to the store." "oh, it's not necessary. why to the? it's so silly. it's not necessary. i go store." >> reporter: and anna will continue posthumously in the role of muse, to jerry the poet. >> "she isn't a dream, she is real as can be, i knew it the moment her wings covered me. she flew from afar and awakened new sight, and only i see her, my angel of light." my mother called and says, "michelle's dead." how is that possible? >> a young mother found brutally murdered. her little girl left to wander in her mother's blood. police had a suspect and they say he had a motive. >> we had an intimate relationship. >> we ended up having sex. >> but could they prove he was the killer? >> it was a circumstantial case. >> except for that witness. the girl who left those footprints. >> we will never know what cassidy saw and what she didn't see. >> maybe she couldn't tell detectives who the killer was, but maybe she didn't have to.

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