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i think the salient points made by our memo still exist and they are still true. a little bit of it is creating so much dust and clout that people just give up and saying, you are saying that, i am just going to tune out. that may be part of it too. >> martha: it seems like one of the big bones of contention would be whether or not it was essential to the fisa surveillance. you have argued that it was essential, that without it, they would have not received the authorization for the warrant from the fisa court. do they have -- you said that there is other information about carter page. you said they are basically three things. you have yahoo news article, the dossier, and other information about carter page. can they argue that other information was substantial enough? >> they didn't make that argument to the judge. if you have enough without the dossier, then why did you
include the dossier? if you have enough without the dossier, why did you, in your court filing, lead with the dossier? lawyers don't start with their weakest document, and you certainly don't start with an argument that you don't need to make and should not have made. the fact that you use the dossier tells me you must have felt like you needed it or else he would not have included it in your court filing. >> martha: how did they get four right mike rounds of approval when it looked like they were coming up with not much at all on carter page? >> you can you get -- that coue that x went to russia, that x sent an email, that x corresponded with someone. i think the threshold for a renewal is that you are gaining some information. how material that information is is in the eye of the judge. my focus is on the initial application, because that is where it started the renewals. also, martha, keep in mind the
information that republicans argued should have been in the initial application also was not in the renewals. the bias of some folks who were investigating the president -- the bias of chris steele. the fact that he was desperate to do anything to prevent president trump from winning. that is something that a reasonable tribunal would not do know if you are evaluating a source. >> martha: it definitely does raise questions about the fisa court that they didn't scrape beneath the surface and say, why have you included a news article as part of your substantiation here? doesn't it raise questions about how they are doing their job might judge job? >> i think most judges don't rely on news articles. i kind of blame the person who included it. if that's all you have got it. that is almost, by definition, hearsay. i rarely miss a chance to blame judges, because i used to to up here in front of them all the time. i don't blame the judges. i blame the attorneys who are officers of the court. they are not advocates trying to
for this? why did you go through all these machinations instead of just saying it in a clear and transparent way? but they didn't. >> martha: he said he believed the memo lays out a case for conspiracy. he was the word conspiracy, which is a crime. do you agree with that? >> i love the chairman. he is one of my favorite colleagues. i conspiracy is an agreement to commit an unlawful act. i used to do those cases. i never allege a conspiracy -- i don't look for some nefarious motive if incompetence or a lack of protocol will explain it. i will not allege that the bureau and the department of justice have a conspiracy. i got asks for early serious questions about why they handled things certain ways, but i don't
start with conspiracy. >> martha: andrew mccabe signed off on leaves. so did bob rosenstein. you don't believe that they had any conspiratorial drive in presenting that dossier to get that warrant, to listen in on carter page's phone calls because they didn't want president trump to be elected? >> martha: that is such a serious allegation, you would have to have something other than the fact that they were signing documents that led me to draw that conclusion. i am really troubled by what i have read from mr. page. it is manifest bias in a way i have never seen it before. that troubles me more than the fact that rod rosenstein did not feel the need to do independent research to corroborate assertions made in a court proceeding. if there is no evidence of conspiracy, i am most to accuse
someone of it. >> martha: so chairman nunes, who you worked with on this memo, has suggested that there is a lot more to come and that the investigation continues. it looks like the next place that you all are looking at as the state department during the obama administration. we know there was a criminal referral that was made by senators graham and grassley. it includes this. before and source give information to an unnamed associate of hillary and bill clinton who then gave information to an unnamed official in the obama state department who then gave the information to steele. what do you know about that? >> everything that there is to know about it, and i have known about it for over a month. if you go and read the documents, you see it. i am troubled by it. it is one reason -- i have tremendous respect for michael horowitz, the inspector drink not -- inspector general of the department of justice.
there is a state component -- state department component to this. it needs to be investigated. i don't view the investigation turns terms of stages. it is one investigation pursuit of all relevant facts leading towards the truth. i am troubled by what i read in the documents with respect to the role the state department played in the fall of 2016, including information that was used in a court proceeding. >> martha: so weeks before the election, somebody in the obama state department was feeding information from a foreign source to christopher steele. >> when you hear who the source or one of the sources of that information is, you're going to think, oh, my gosh, i've heard that name somewhere before. where could he possibly have been? >> martha: a foreign source? >> a domestic source. i'm trying to think of secretary clinton defined him. i think she said he was an old friend who emailed her from time to time.
>> martha: blumenthal? >> that would be really warm. >> martha: more to come on that. still to come tonight, growing speculation over whether president trump will say, special counsel mueller, congressman gowdy shed some light on that coming up next. the basic question is, what crime is robert mueller investigating? roadside assistancel 24-hr helped him to fix his flat so he could get home safely. my dad says our insurance doesn't have that. don't worry - i know what a lug wrench is, dad. is this a lug wrench? maybe? you can leave worry behind when liberty stands with you™. liberty stands with you™. liberty mutual insurance. having mplaque psoriasise is not always easy. it's a long-distance run. and you have the determination to keep going.
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♪ >> martha: will the president end up answering questions about its potential special counsel? lawyers tell trump to refuse mueller interview? they claim they are concerned the president might perjure himself. i asked congressman gowdy for his thoughts on the appropriate >> i think you have a russian investigation, irregardless of r or not there is a dossier. the dossier has nothing to do with the fact that someone tried to hack into the dnc server. actually, he succeeded in doing so. they tried to hack into lots of other folks servers for the access john podesta's emails. it has nothing to do with the meeting george papadopoulos had in great britain. the dossier has nothing to do with the meeting at trump tower. the dossier has nothing to do with allegations of obstruction of justice. bob mueller, who, by the way,
didn't volunteer, he was asked to do it after eight distinguished career. he was asked to do it and he was asked to look into what russia did and with whom, if anyone, they did it. i know people focus on the criminality. it is interesting people find that much more interesting than something as boring as, did a foreign power try to interfere with our democracy. i think bob mueller, like lots of other responsible people, but it's pretty important too. so he has got a counterintelligence mission. has a criminal mission, and that criminal mission exists separate -- even if there were no dossier. everything else, it still exists. i think you still have bob mueller with or without a dossier. >> martha: what do you say when we have watergate or whitewater, the american public understood the crime that was being investigated. the basic question for a lot of americans is, what crime is robert mueller investigating? >> i would encourage my fellow citizens -- that is a quick
question. i would encourage them to go back and read the charter, read the jurisdiction that created by mueller. there is a counterintelligence. what did russia do to impact our election in 2016. there may or may not be crimes, domestic crimes associated with that, but there is a foreign power trying to interfere with the gears of our democracy. the hack of the dnc server is a crime. the accessing of john podesta's email is a crime. the attempt to access other servers is a crime. so there is a criminal foundation, if you will. but there is a counterintelligence jurisdiction for him separate and apart from any criminality. >> martha: i don't have a language in front of me but i read it recently. the way it was set forth is that it is a national security investigation that investigates the period of the election, and i think when people look at where it appears to be going, there seems to be a lot of focus
on obstruction of justice. there seems to be a lot of focus on the trump tower meeting, for example, and they wonder whether or not this is an investigation of president trump and his people or an investigation and looks at something that is a broad problem in terms of foreign governments trying to influence our election process or even our corporate process. you could look at china, you could look at russia. they feel like this has the tentacles that seem to be heading in the direction of the president and his people. >> one of the downsides to being a prosecutor is, you don't get to defend yourself very awesome. often. bob miller has never -- mueller has never issued a press conference that -- if there have been two guilty pleas. there are two other indictments. >> martha: do you feel that those guilty pleas implicate the president or the campaign in any
way? >> no. and i think that, no offense to the media, but i think the media is hyper focused on how this has impacted donald trump, and i think bob mueller is focused on, where is it taking me. i get it that president trump is really interesting from a news standpoint, lots of reporters and writers are fascinated with whether or not mueller is going to interview trump and whether or not -- anything related to the president, they are super interested in. having done it for a living, bob mueller is every bit as interested in figuring out how we missed the signs that russia was trying to interfere with our election. prosecutors are just wired differently from politicians. >> martha: let me ask you this. you think there would be at bob mueller special counsel investigation of hillary clinton were president right now? >> heavens, no. attorney general adam schiff would never investigate it nor appoint special counsel. one of the reasons i can't wait
to go into another line of work is the relativism that we don't apply the same standard, that democrats will wail and cry and gnashing teeth over something they think republicans have done, and they are more than happy to turn a blind eye if their own team does it. there is not a snowball's chance in purgatory that attorney general adam schiff or loretta lynch would be looking into a fact pattern for president clinton. obama absolved her of any criminality in her most recent probe before the investigation was over. >> martha: there are some who believe there may have been a russian attempt to influence both sides of the campaign, and that may be where the state department investigation is going, a foreign source sending information to christopher steele, that they were sort of entertained at the notion of coming at perhaps both campaigns. is that side being investigated enough in this equation, do you
think? >> it is by congress. i cannot speak for special counsel. i'm not supposed to know what he is doing, and i do not know what he is doing. i can tell you, over the strenuous objections of my colleagues, we did find out that chris still was relying on russian sources. in essence, the democratic national committee and hillary clinton were spending money to acquire information from russian sources to then be used to interfere with or influence or impact of the 20 election. it is an irony that you couldn't make up if you wanted to. i just have been unsuccessful at getting many elements of the mainstream media to be interested in that half of the equation. >> martha: do think president trump can get a fair hearing in this process? >> i do. in the court of public opinion or through the special counsel? >> martha: through the special counsel, for starters. >> idea. i think bob mueller is a former united states attorney and fbi director who has had an otherwise really is no make
distinguished legal career and i don't know of any prosecutor -- first of all, you either have the factory don't have the facts. even if the prosecutor wanted to "get someone," you've got to have the facts to do it. we have a jury and a judge standing between a overzealous prosecutor -- >> martha: you have seen special councils in the past leave their purview and the investigation goes on for a long time, the next thing you know, you are investigating a monica lewinsky case when the president didn't even know her when the special counsel began his work. you don't have any fear of that here? >> do i have fear that jurisdiction may wander a bit? i think it already has. it has already wandered a little bit. but i would not blame bob mueller. i would blame whoever drafted the jurisdiction and the charter that empowered him. if you look at it, it says matters that may arise from the investigation. what the heck heck does that mean? is that a bank robbery in
topeka, kansas? >> martha: and that language came from rod rosenstein? >> yes, ma'am. >> martha: up next, trey gowdy looks back at some of the most heated moments of his career and who will do it once he leaves. >> the dominant question i get every saturday morning at publi publix, why don't these people go to jail. otezla is not an injection or a cream. it's a pill that treats differently. for psoriasis, 75% clearer skin is achievable with reduced redness, thickness, and scaliness of plaques. and for psoriatic arthritis, otezla is proven to reduce joint swelling, tenderness, and pain. and the otezla prescribing information has no requirement for routine lab monitoring. don't use if you're allergic to otezla. otezla may cause severe diarrhea, nausea, or vomiting. tell your doctor if these occur. otezla is associated with an increased risk of depression.
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tomorrow afternoon, i'm not going to go through anymore of the false statements. >> after very careful consideration, i've decided to follow my counsel's advice and did not testify or answer any of the questions today. >> she just testified. she just waved her fifth amendment right to privilege. you don't get to tell your side of the story and not be subjected to cross-examination. that's not the way it works. she waved her right to fifth amendment privilege by issuing an opening open statement. she ought to stay here and answer our question. >> martha: those are some of the moments that make trey gowdy a household name. i asked him, and mike what goes through his mind when he looks at those gowdy rulings in the famous hearing room. >> what really goes through my mind, who is that a person, i'm never like that outside of a courtroom or congressional hearing room. i am never like that. i would rather make you laugh and make you uncomfortable. my wife says it best, she says,
who is that person? it is a job. it is what i think needs to be done. if you prepare -- and i love to prepare, it is really hard to clean somebody for 5 minutes. 5 minutes, you have to prepare and you have to anticipate where the witness is going and where you want the witness to wind up. it reminds me a lot of what i used to do for a living. in a courtroom, i had no idea what the witness was going to say before they testified. it is a cold cross. at least here, i can google prior statements, i can read their statements, i get to listen to them while other people quiz. it's a lot easier in congress than it was in the courtroom. 5 minutes is a really small amount of time to elucidate the truth, so you better make really effective use of that time. but we had a really interesting exchange once.
he walked up to me afterwards and he was smiling and he said, of every lawyer, i'm probably going to come hire you. people don't see that off-camera, that it is not personal. never had a crossword with -- cross word with eric. i guess i kind of view it as my job, it is what i'm supposed to do. >> martha: what do you say to those who look at the lowest learners or hillary clinton, if they feel that she did something wrong, they say, we watch this, but we never see any real ramifications. i had an email this morning from a viewer who said, ask him how do people get away with the things that they get away with in his mind. >> the dominant question i get every saturday morning at publix is, why didn't these people go to jail? i politely have to tell them, no
one in the legislative branch can put anyone in jail for anything. you could admit to a crime in this hearing room, and there is nothing a member of the legislative branch can do about it. that was my old job. the executive branch gets to charge and prosecute and gain a conviction. >> martha: but they are not following through on that then, according to people who are disturbed by what they see. >> and in the past, we could say, got to talk to the obama justice department. we can't say that anymore. it is the sessions justice department. that frustration, whether it is the clinton or the fast and furious, that is the republican administrations watch right now. the mack frustration reviewers feel and the folks i see back home, we build up expectations that we can never actualize. we should tell people we are having a hearing to shed light. we are not going to put anybody
in jail because i don't have the power to do it. but we don't. relate the expectations get so high, we never meet them, and that leads to frustration and anger, and i would argue creates an environment where you will get an outsider to become president. >> martha: is this doj going to be any different? you are leaving. do you think that these issues will have light shed on them and v doj will follow through and we'll get a different result? >> i don't know if we'll get a different result because i don't know the facts. but to the extent that the loretta lynch justice department ignored things or ask that they be called a matter or not an investigation or other things that are just far into those in the justice system, we have no one to blame but ourselves. president trump got typically attorney general, he got to pick the head of the fbi. there should never be a political consideration in an investigation, but the facts existed six years ago, they
still exist. i would expect them to do this and in a political way and follow facts. >> martha: will you stay on as chair of oversight until you leave? >> and les paul or kevin asked me not to, and neither one of them has said that. i want to serve in whatever capacity paul and kevin want me to. >> martha: who do you think should succeed you as chair of oversight. >> almost anyone would be better. >> martha: why do you say that? >> i just -- being a chairperson is a tough job. you've got to balance a lot. you don't just get to spend your 5 minutes quizzing a witness. there are lots of other things that going go into being a chairperson. i wish jason had stayed, he was good at it, he enjoyed it. i had never run for a chairmanship before. absent paul and kevin telling me to take a look at it, i would have gone the rest of my career
without running for one either. >> martha: didn't weigh on you and your decision-making that you were the ninth g.o.p. chair to step down and to the 34th, i think, g.o.p. member of conferee to say that you are not running again? speed mun >> what weighs on me is a first grade school teacher south carolina and my mom. those two people have more influence on me than the entire u.s. house in the entire u.n. . senate. and i love tim scott. he has tremendous influence on me, but even he can't get me to do something that my mom and my wife and other people in my life aren't at peace with. he tried. but it's time for me to go home and do something that i really, really enjoy doing. >> martha: coming up, congressman gowdy answers the question that is on everybody's
mind. why is he leaving capitol hill and why did he turn down what he called his dream job when it clearly could have been is? you were offered a couple of times the fourth circuit appeals court judgeship. why would you turn that one dow down? x. i never thought that i could quit, but i did. along with support, chantix (varenicline) is proven to help people quit smoking. without a doubt, chantix reduced my urge to smoke. when you try to quit smoking, with or without chantix, you may have nicotine withdrawal symptoms. some people had changes in behavior or thinking, aggression, hostility, agitation, depressed mood, or suicidal thoughts or actions with chantix. serious side effects may include seizures, new or worse heart or blood vessel problems, sleepwalking or allergic and skin reactions which can be life-threatening. stop chantix and get help right away if you have any of these. tell your healthcare provider if you've had depression or other mental health problems.
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evaluate, what i'd be good at it, what i'd be happy doing it for the next 15 years. for every really in interesting constitutional question to get her criminal case, you may have 15 antitrust cases that just make your eyes glaze over. my wife's name is terry, and she says, you love interacting with people, you like teaching a college class, you like being an advocate, you don't get to do any of that if you are a judge. i told lindsay and tim, thank you, but go find someone else and they found someone fantastic for that, and i am at peace with it. spoon described for us what you will be doing. >> practicing the law. >> martha: >> martha: privately. >> in private practice with some -- they happened be fema lawyers that have been incredibly supportive of me throughout my career, my chief of staff and some others. we are going to try to practice law on the civil side. tim scott and i teach a class
together. we have written a book together that i want to mention or try to sell, but we have written a book together. he is my favorite person in politics and i enjoy doing things with him. i don't know. i may speak if somebody needs a poor, washed up speaker for some event. i may do that. i won't ever run for office again. when you leave politics, to me, it's important that you leave. >> martha: do you think everybody should leave? should there be term limits? >> every time i say that, i think about folks like paul ryan that i think are uniquely gifted. i think, on balance, i think our framers had it right that you would serve for a season and go home. but if everyone is not going to abide by that, then i'm not sure you should force really talented legislators -- there are some on the other side too, but paul
leaps to mind. he has a unique skill set. >> martha: he talked about leaving. do you think he will? >> eventually he will. we celebrated his birthday last monday night. a pretty small group of us. i tried to quiz him on it. i'm not a good enough lawyer to get the answer out of him. he tells me he is staying, and i believe him. >> martha: the question that some spent a lot of people's minds, i asked them, would you like to hear from trey gowdy, as why? people feel you represent something on the hill but speaks to them in a way that is effective, and they want to know why you are leaving. >> first of all, thank them for asking that question. >> martha: not everyone feels that way, of course. [laughs] >> i'm glad my mom and my wife reached out to you and ask that. it's just the right time. i've enjoyed it. it's been a great seven years. i've met people i would never have met and done things i never could have imagined. if you would have seen my grades in college and law school, you
would be stunned that i was in the house of representatives. it has been amazing but, martha, it is just time for me -- i don't want to sound morbid. and tim scott is the one who with this in perspective for me. two-thirds of your life is in the rearview mirror and you have a third left in the windshield, and how do you want to spend that, what's left? and i don't want to spend it away from my wife who has sacrificed incredibly for my career. my kids, one is graduating law school, one claims she wants to go. my parents are still alive, thank the lord. my wife's parents, we lost both of them since i have been in congress. it is partly a lifestyle decision and partly aid, i am just more comfortable in the justice system. i just like it more. it fits my heart better.
>> martha: still i had with trey gowdy, the man behind the congressional seat and the people behind him when we come back. >> i don't think winning is the ultimate objective. i think the ultimate objective is to lead an honorable life. copd tries to say, "go this way." i say, "i'll go my own way" with anoro. ♪go your own way once-daily anoro contains two medicines called bronchodilators, that work together to significantly improve lung function all day and all night. anoro is not for asthma . it contains a type of medicine that increases risk of death in people with asthma. the risk is unknown in copd. anoro won't replace rescue inhalers for sudden symptoms and should not be used more than once a day. tell your doctor if you have a heart condition, high blood pressure, glaucoma, prostate, bladder, or urinary problems. these may worsen with anoro.
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>> i think the manner in which we get to places matters. in politics, often come up winning is the only thing that matters. every hero i have has lost. every one of them. >> martha: we wanted to know, who are these heroes he is referring to. >> well, jesus lost. martin luther king jr. was assassinated. a man was put to death. abraham lincoln lost more races than he won. how you can structure himself matters. we are in a culture and society that values winning. professional wrestling is really popular. cheating to win, getting away with committing penalties. i think the way we do things matters, and following a process that is fair -- that is the justice system. you can have a guilty person, if
you don't follow the right process, there is a punishment for it. in politics, if i were to allege something against you and we are in a race against each other, whether it is true or not, my pang of moral conscience, but the objective is to win. i don't think winning is the objective. the ultimate objective is to lead a moral life. >> martha: what to say to people that say that you represent thing to make something to them. it sounds to me from what you are saying that you think politics is ugly and self-serving. don't we need people who don't believe that that is the aim of it in order to make it better? >> and we have. they don't get a lot of air time. john ratcliffe from texas is one of my favorite human beings on the face of the earth. tim scott is one of the best people i have ever met. tulsi gabbard came in sat by me
yesterday and again today. we don't agree politically, but she is one of my favorite people. joey kennedy came and spoke to me last night. i have incredible respect for joey. there is not a hardworking person in congress. but look at what happened last week. here is a former prosecutor, hardworking, and the focus was on whether or not he had more chapstick than he should have had, and i just -- that is the environment that we are in now. i can change it. not going to do any good for me to sit around and criticize it. there are good people in public service, but too often -- i'll tell you what i tell people back home. i ask them, have you ever heard of weiner? what about phil roe. haven't heard of phil roe. saved a man's life, member of congress, physician. that is the culture we live in.
>> martha: aren't you afraid that you won't be able to have an impact on the country? the people you stated had a tremendous impact on the country. it doesn't bother you you might be out of the arena? >> whatever comes after me is going to be more than fine. our district has a lot of people that can do this job and a lot of people that can do it perhaps better than i have done it for the past seven years. ultimately, martha, i'm going to be judged on what kind of husband, father, friend, son, brother to my three sisters -- i think ultimately that is what people are going to remember. and i have had eight years. most people don't get eight years in the house of representatives. every teacher i have ever had is shocked that i got eight years. there is nothing in my back on that suggested to them -- >> martha: you're not alone. [laughs] >> and locate you.
there are lots of ways to impart culture. quite candidly, when you sit and think, who are the leaders of the conservative movement and the republican party, the names that leap to your mind aren't elected officials. they are folks that are either in the media or in culture. there are ways to drive the discussion and be part of it without holding office. >> martha: last call to my question. i looked up a member of congress who went on to become supreme court justices in history. it is a pretty long list. is that something, after several years in the private sector and time at home, that you would consider? >> the supreme court of the united states or the -- o. what an awesome job. but i think, unfortunately, the way politics is now, once you have been associated with the political process, it is really hard to wash that off. it would take a long time,
and -- i mean, i love the law. love it much more than i ever loved politics. i love it, but i'm also not naive. the first rule of friendship, if you don't ask friends to do what is not in their best interest. we are a 51/49 center right now. i've got to ask lindsay and tom scott and corey carter and tim says to go to battle and defend me against all the groups that they can remember that i was on the committee called benghazi? i would not ask my friends to do that. if something changes in ten years and the president called me, i would say, let me help you come up with a list of people that would be really good, but don't put me on the list. >> martha: mm. we'll be right back. it's absolute confidence in 30,000 precision parts.
PeopleMemoPointsBitCloutDustSayingMarthaOneFisaSurveillancePartnot know that you debt i'm looking at the black community dinner in mesa, arizona. all of these local prominent black elected officials. a press conference in charlotte with the mayor. a beauty shop conversation in detroit, michigan, with a state senator. the campaign is leveraging local trusted voices, local elected officials, to rally around the cause. i find that a critical piece of organizing. you are not just drive just dropping in. there's a two pronged approach. >> absolutely. it has to be. that's a big calculus for us. going back to jamaal bowman's point. the closer you are to the street the better read you have any. president biden understands what the country needs globally but we have to utilize surrogates on the ground. fixing problems with african american men and having to do direct outreach to them,
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