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trump about a payment to "playboy" model karen mcdougal before the 2016 election. >> could be a recording of a recording, we're not sure yet. that they can probably determine. you're right. we may never be able to determine that but we have determined the fact that he campered with the tape in the sense that he abruptly mid-conversation turned it off. >> giuliani told abc news "we have complained to them that michael cohen has violated the attorney/client privilege publicly and privately." in a statement to nbc news, lanny davis, cohen's attorney, fired back saying mr. giuliani seems to have been confused. he expressly waived attorney/client privilege last week and repeatedly and inaccurately as proven by the tape talked about and talked about the recording, forfeiting all confidentiality. joining me now is timothy bag. loyalty in trumplandia is a one-way street. he doesn't have much loyalty towards the people around him apart from his nuclear family. sometimes his wives but not even often with his wives. he doesn't build strong teams, he doesn't build people are authentically loyal to him. everything is transactional. >> but cohen up until now cultivated this idea that he was almost like family. he had this weers one-way loyalloya -- fierce one way loyalty to trump. >> if he believed that, why did he tape him. i think these were insurance policies michael cohen was drawing down in case trump was throwing him under the bus which trump was trying to do. michael cohen is not a classic attorney. he didn't go to court for donald trump. he went after donald trump's around trump are just like trump, seeking power and fame and that need for that power and fame outweighs anything else. >> it's why rudy giuliani was spurned, he wanted to be secretary of state, he thought he would be secretary of state. trump not only threw him under the bus by not making him secretary of state but he also made comments about rudy giuliani's appearance and rudy giuliani still came back and is on tv because it's more about their wanting the power and fame on the platform. >> he was humiliated by donald trump. was summarily tossed out of the white house. he hired anthony scaramucci. he was not treated well. he's still out the there with a book that what we heard about it displays loyalty. sam nunberg who was dismissed from the trump campaign was on "meet the press" this morning and this is what he had to say about michael cohen, somebody he In-depth interviews with leading newsmakers, plus discussions with America's preeminent political minds. likely during the speech when he previewed the dirt that was that he was going to announce about hillary clinton that he was talking about the trump tower meeting but at the same time he said who cares, it doesn't matter, e-mails were weren't discussed during the meeting. i said how do you know? he said will it's clear nothing came of the meeting so even if he did approve of it it's not a big deal. he's making excuses for the presidents in a way we've seen by all of trump's allies who have been trying to discount this idea that trump approved of this meeting with the russians to get this dirt. >> it's interesting, michelle, because we talk a lot about the religious right sticking with donald trump through thick and thin and not caring. for them they believe he is bringing about policy that in their mind is pro conservative christian and so they don't care about anything else so at least some ideological reason for sticking with him no matter what. when it comes to these people, these are not ideologues, a lot that michael cohen committed some horrific act, it might have been criminal conduct in releasing those tapes and they want to get to the bottom of who released the tapes. lanny davis says he didn't release them. i believe lanny davis. >> i have questions about rudy giuliani's boasts during the campaign that he had sources in the new york fbi that somehow he seemed to have really a lot of knowledge about the investigation into hillary clinton but we'll have to do that for another show. i want to come back to this as a strategic matter because if this idea of finding new loyalists, if it's strategy it's strange. why would you tape things? to exculpate yourself. and cohen is not only someone who frequently taped his clients and people, he said there were other people in the room when he heard donald trump be told in advance about the trump tower meetin meeting. all mueller has to do is bring other others. >> he's gathering evidence he can present to a jury to show a fact pattern that shows culpability and willful misbehavior. we know when donald trump jr. took the meeting in trump tower, jared kushner was aware of it and manafort was aware of it. they all said boo without running upstairs and getting their father's approval. that's the way the company ran. and that was a significant development. donald trump jr. was excited. it beggars the imagination he didn't tell his father. the other thing i think about in terms of trying to set whether it's a strategy or not, you can't discount this is a highly unsophisticated ill informed morally rudderless group of people who can't shoot straight and aren't very bright and they're now colliding off each other like pinballs. >> who wins? >> can i add something, joy? i'm putting my lawyer hat on. from a strategic point of view, if you think about this in a sane manner, which is what you and the panel are doing, you don't understand what rudy giuliani is doing. if you put on a different hat and think to yourself his job is not to -- i can't believe that anyone thinks it's the way to be impeached or indicted. every statement he makes about michael cohen or bob mueller or comey or hillary clinton, this is about the president's base and getting the president reelected in 2020 and getting republicans in the house in 2016 because donald trump's base doesn't care about any of this. they don't care about his infidelity or lies and they are able to sit back and say yes he hired somebody related to the clintons and he's awful and they're out to get my man, they're out to get our president. that's the strategy in this. >> the only person people are talking about impeaching is rod rosenstein. rod rosenstein, that's who the committee to protect the president are talking about impeaching. thank you all. coming up, everyday it seems we're hearing more and more and more horrific stories of children separated from their families by the trump administration's zero-tolerance immigration policy and the challenges they face even once they're back together. more on that next. ♪ a hotel can make or break a trip. and at expedia, we don't think you should be rushed into booking one. that's why we created expedia's add-on advantage. now after booking your flight, you unlock discounts on select hotels right until the day you leave. ♪ add-on advantage. discounted hotel rates when you add on to your trip. only when you book with expedia. families as the trump administration scrambled to meet a court-ordered deadline to reverse some 2500 migrant family separations by this past thursday. that leaves hundreds of families still separated including more than 650 children who the trump administration has deemed ineligible for reunification. according to government numbers, 431 parents have been deported without their kids. and the other deal is not over, even for migrant families who have been reunited as the trump administration pushes to have them deported as well. joining me are the msnbc correspondents who have been covering this story, tirelessly. mariana atencio and jacob soboroff. 2551 total migrant children taken from their parents, more than 1800 reunited. a thousand already have executable deportation orders. in your reporting, what happens to a parent that's been deported. how are they supposed to get their kids back? >> i have spoken to one of these parents, her name is lourdes de leone. she's in guatemala, her son leo is six years old in a shelter in new york, they haven't seen each other in two months. this mother says she thinksing she signed a document for her child to be sent back to her once his legal proceedings ended in the u.s. but when i spoke to her she said i wasn't sure what i was signing and she's waiting for her child to be put on a plane by i.c.e. and sent to her. she's contacted the cannes lat, she's given i.c.e. a ticket. she's waiting for a travel itinerary. but everyday that goes by, we were talking about this before, you remember when you were lost for a couple hours, she gets to talk to her six-year-old son once every eight days. from rural guatemala. everyday that goes by is anguis anguish. >> friday i went down to san diego because i wanted to hear from the court itself and the administration in person whether or not the government had any plans at all to reunite what it call these ineligible kids, the 650 of them that mariana has gone to track down and that they made no commitment to in advance of the court hearing. the judge basically said you have to come up with a plan to find these 650 missing kids and i'll tell you how you'll have to do it. let me say what march ishe has extraordinary, she's gone to home countries found parents that have been deported and tried to help match them up with their children. that's the onus that ice on the aclu and ngos around this country but different count rise throughout the world where we have sent those parents back to and given them no opportunity to link back up to their kids. a judge is going to issue specific guidelines for the government to turn over to the aclu so they can locate these parents and children with as much detailed information as possible to try to put them back together. he basically called this step two. step one was kind of like an atta boy way to go government. you put together 1440 that you said were eligible, your own basically goal line you said for yourself. but there were 2551 total not just 1440. >> i want to know what they mean by ineligible. how can you determine someone is not eligible to have their own kid back? >> let me say clearly the kids were separated in the exact same way from those in the eligible category. they came into this country and were taken in a systematic identical way from those that were quote/unquote eligible. ineligible means maybe 430 of them that they were gone. some may have criminal convictions. that's part of what the judge ordered the government turn over to the aclu. the government has been focusing on this 120 they say relinquished their rights to their children and gave up the right to go back with their kids but the aclu says clearly if you look at affidavits filed in court, not all these parents knew what they were doing. they gave away their kids and said can we have them back? now there's no process for them to get them back. >> and sometimes the red flags are something as simple as a name change. i have been speaking to a mother inside the detention facility. we were one of the teams that went in there to speak with her. she's separated, detained. i have to say it's one of the most heartbreaking conversations i've had because she's in prison. i spoke to her through a glass window on a prison-like phone and she says everyday i'm being told you're eligible for reunification but there's a holdup, another holdup. i spoke to her on thursday. it's sunday. she's still in there. >> and she's in a detention facility like a criminal. it's not illegal to seek asylum. >> she's in a place they refer to as alpha three. so it starts to sound like a dystopian thriller here. we can't avoid what happens when we don't confront this racism and xenophobia straight on. that's why it's so important. >> you guys are doing the real work. >> i said to this mother what do you want our audience to know sunday? and she said don't forget us. >> i want to play a couple things. let's listen to kirstjen nielsen who claimed that it is the parents' fault if they don't have their kid. >> how can you reunite parents with their kids if they've been deported? >> well, that part is up to the parents so the parents contact us we will work with them but as you know the way the process works is the parents always have the choice to take the children with them so these are parents who have made the decision not to bring the children with them and will continue to work with the court to understand how we can comply with the order. >> do the parents always have the choice to take the children with them? have they made the choice not to bring their children home? >> some parents were being given signed document -- this is according to the aclu documents in another language, in english, made to sign documents in a room with other parents, other people, they're in distress. this is mental health issue when they're signing these documents so the aclu is saying they don't have the proper mental state, they're not given enough legal consultation to know what they're signing. >> i want to play very quickly jacob, this was -- congresswoman jayapal was on our show and i want to know if this is still going on. take a listen. >> i will tell you families are still being separated. i went with a group of eight members of congress and we went to the ursula processing center which is the epicenter of where these kids are being separated from their parents. that's still happening. >> jacob, are family separations still happening? >> according to the judge in the ca case, he didn't present definitive statistics but he said he expects separations to continue to continue. he said for valid reasons but he says there needs to be a process to undo these separations. he made clear he expected separations to continue into the future and it was a messess right now of historic proportions that needed to have a systemic way to undo it and the last thing i want to say is one thousand of the parents, 1440 reunited with their kids have orders or deportation right now so the aclu is basically scrambling to help them undo those orders of deportation nod to basically have asylum casesry heard if they were heard in error or if they made a fatal mistake under duress. >> the deportation rate for kids without lawyers, 88%. >> i went into immigration court, joy, for unaccompanied children which are the children that were separated are now deemed unaccompanied. after an hour-long proceeding, 14-year-old child asked "what is a lawyer?" >> and they're not entitled to one. >> and no cameras allowed so if we don't keep going there we won't know those stories. >> thank god for you two. please keep up the work, please keep coming back, we're going to stay on this story because you guys are on it and making sure we know what's happening. it's horrifying. up next, putin and the late-night threats of war with iran. just another day in trumpland. in gas and electric is pg&e. we run about 2,500/2,800 fire calls a year and on almost every one of those calls pg&e is responding to that call as well. and so when we show up to a fire and pg&e shows up with us it makes a tremendous team during a moment of crisis. i rely on them, the firefighters in this department rely on them, and so we have to practice safety everyday. utilizing pg&e's talent and expertise in that area trains our firefighters on the gas or electric aspect of a fire and when we have an emergency situation we are going to be much more skilled and prepared to mitigate that emergency for all concerned. the things we do every single day that puts ourselves in harm's way, and to have a partner that is so skilled at what they do is indispensable, and i couldn't ask for a better partner. on friday, the sixth "mission impossible" film hit theaters and it's on its way to becoming the number-one movie in the country. among the stars, ving rhames. like any good star, he's been doing press for the movie and he had this harrowing story on sirius xm. he said two years ago he was at home watching tv when four police officers showed up at his house, rang his doorbell, and when he opened the door pointed a 9 millimeter handgun in his face. ving said and the santa monica police confirmed that the officers were responding to 911 calls made by neighbors reporting that a "large african-american man" was breaking into the house. here's a thought -- number one, know who you live next door to, you might live next door to ving rhames and don't call the police on your neighbor for entering their own house, whether that neighbor is a celebrity or any other large african-american man. really just your neighbor. up next, the dictators strike. it treats oab symptoms of urgency, frequency, and leakage. it's the first and only oab treatment in its class. myrbetriq may increase blood pressure. tell your doctor right away if you have trouble emptying your bladder or have a weak urine stream. myrbetriq may cause serious allergic reactions... ...like swelling of the face, lips, throat or tongue, or trouble breathing. if experienced, stop taking and tell your doctor right away. myrbetriq may interact with other medicines. tell your doctor if you have liver or kidney problems. common side effects include increased blood pressure, common cold or flu symptoms,... ...sinus irritation, dry mouth, urinary tract infection, bladder inflammation,... ...back or joint pain, constipation, dizziness, and headache. need some help managing your oab symptoms along the way? 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>> no, actually. the whole team around him believe that iran is evil, he's being pushed by think tanks, by neo-cons who support and where are the cheerleaders of the iranian war. what we are seeing is a play book of the iraq war and by countries like saudi arabia and israel who are adamant about taking out iran. except this time the price of that war would be by far much more disastrous than iraq. this is a country of 18 million people that control the strait of hormuz where one-third of oil shipments go from there. the iranians started reacting to that rhetoric saying well, we might actually seal off that strait and this will lead to skyrocketing of oil prices, the radicalization that we've seen in iraq we'll see by far much more but we've seen another thing we never expected. two houthi missiles hit one oil tank in the red sea pushing the saudis to stop the shipment of oil. the iranians will not react well to threats or any kind of invasion, occupation of their land. this is a strong country that is used to these sanctions. trump is waging a financial war against them and the war is those sanctions after he violated the agreement. >> when he pulled aside the iran deal. let's put up the map. the strait of hormuz, just to show, you you have iran, oman and the united arab emirates. iran the neighbor of iraq. that strait is where much of the persian gulf oil has to zblavl two million barrels a day. >> and they control it. let's get the response that the ironian leader had to donald trump's threat. he said you know this war will destroy all you possess. you will start this war but we will impose its end. therefore you have to be careful about insulting the iranian people. and this was president soleimani in a speech in arabic. i want to go to you colonel wilkerson because you have been on the show with dire predictions that we seem to be moving back in the direction we were before the attack on iraq. do you still feel that way? >> i do. you have people like the foundation of defense of democracy, my old friend john hanna with me at the u.n. security council when we lied about iraq's weapons of mass destruction, you've got them pushing hard on behalf of israel almost as if they were douglas's off office of special plans but outside the government. they're manufacturing intelligence and bringing pressure to bear with regard to israel and issues pertaining to israel and war with iran so you have almost the same road map that we had in 2002 and 2003 now being employed and orchestrated by john bolton, the national security adviser with respect to iran. it's very concerning. >> and trina parsi, mike pompeo has been a part of this. he gave a speech at the reagan library last week. i'll play that and come to you with a question. >> the proud iranian people are not saying silent about their government's many abuses and the united states under president trump won't stay silent either. in light of these protests and 40 years of regime tyranny, i have a message for the people of iran. the united states hears you. the united states supports you, the united states is with you. >> >> that sounds like the rhetoric we heard about iraq before that invasion. does it to you? >> it certainly does and it reminds us of another thing the bush administrations found iraqis and iraqi americans begging to get bombed and this is what pompeo tried to do in los angeles to get iranian americans to validate the trump administration's bellicose approach towards iran and claims this something they're doing because the iranian people support it and i think that's a falseho falsehood, it's very clear the iranian american community is frustrated with the government and iran and the corruption and political repression but they're not jumping over to think donald trump is the answer to their problem certainly not the answer to lack of democracy in iran. mindful of how donald trump is undermining democracy in the united states. >> especially since he pulled out of the iran deal which was the best hope of bringing iran -- >> it's a mow midwest i can policy issue. it's a distraction from allegations of treason and for his lawyer paying off hookers and playboy playmate bus there's another issue. while he's doing this, he's negotiating with the taliban and conceal ago big chunk of territory to them. america spend trillions of dollars in afghanistan and iraq. they lost two wars, now we want to trust the guy that stood near putin and believed him and backed him against his own intelligence. we want to trust this leader to send american boys and girls to fight a war that we know they will lose? it will trigger the worst radicalization but also terrorist attacks across the world. he doesn't care because it's about winning the next election for him. he doesn't care about human lives. imagines if those trillions of dollars were spent on infrastructure in america or to give people in flint clean water. >> or to turn the power back on in puerto rico. >> exactly. >> colonel wilkerson, donald trump came in with the skepticism of the intelligence community and use the false info about iraq that led us into that w war as his basis for skepticism of the cia. now he's brought in the john boltons of the world. he seems to believe what you say is cooked intelligence to go to war with iran. it's a strange set of circumstances. >> it is burr i see a design in it. and i think the design is what the jesh man foreign minister said when trump announced he was going to violate the jcpoa that it was based on domestic politics. i think trump's actions now regardless of where they are and how bellicose are based on titillating his base for the november midterms and i think we'll see anything trump thinks is necessary to do that is policy and that scares the bejesus about me. >> we were just treated to donald trump's allies in conservative media saying their sons should not have to go to war for montenegro meaning the nato alliance is not worth fighting for even though nato stood up for us after 9/11. how is that same base okay with a war with the country four times the population of iraq. >> it was sad to see the recent polls indicate the trump base would follow trump on an issue as going to war with iran. which many people thought no, they're very isolationist but i want to throw out another scenario. not that this won't deteriorate in military conflict but i think instead of pursuing regime change they will be pursuing regime collapse. the difference being in regime change you would change the regime and take responsibility. regime collapse means you collapse the regime and you're content with chaos takes place in iran, no regime at all and have that create a scenario in this the iranian energy is consumed internally in order for it to not a pose a threat or challenge to the u.s.'s allies internally. this is what we've seen in libya and iraq and syria which is in no way democratization. it's chaos and instability. >> i wonder how are european capitals reacting to the idea that we would have chaos. >> they would pay the price. they're already paying the price of the biggest crisis of refugees that went to their countries, triggering these nationalists and xenophobes and neo-new zeala neo-nazis to win one election after the another. it's sta ee's time to start thi fiscally in a wise way, and also morally. we're treating the iranians, the iraqis, the palestinians, puerto ricans like pieces of garbage on a game, on a chase game for political reasons. it's time to utterly get out of this solutional thinking because americans will be first and foremost paying the price. american people, even conservatives who voted for trump will send their daughter tos die so he can get reelected. this can never happen again. the price we paid in these 17 years is for iraqis, one million iraqis died. iran already controls iraq. they can trigger them any way in any moment. they have external powers they can trigger against mesh interests. we need to think about that. >> probably the biggest winner of the invasion of iraq was iran. >> absolutely. >> and syria, too. >> rula jibril, trita parsi, colonel wilkerson, thank you all. up next, the owner of america's team pushes a very un-american policy. stay with us. what will you discover with a lens made by essilor? together in a single lens. essilor ultimate lens package. purchase the essilor ultimate lens package and get a second pair of qualifying lenses free. essilor. better sight. better life. the full value oft wyour new car? you'd be better off throwing your money right into the harbor. i'm gonna regret that. with liberty mutual new car replacement we'll replace the full value of your car. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty ♪ as far as the vote we had as a league in the spring, that doesn't impact our team. our policy is that you stand at the anthem towing the line. >> dallas cowboys owner jerry jones isn't budges from his position that his players must be on the field and standing for the national anthem. that's despite the league putting on hold a policy mandating that players either stand for the anthem or stay in the locker room. donald trump quickly praised jones for his comments even though jones criticized him forgetting involved. >> it is problematic from my chair and i would say in general the owners' chairs, unprecedented if you think about it. but like the very game itself, that's the way it is and we'll deal with it. >> joining me is jamil smith, senior writer at rolling stone. good to see you, my friend. before we get to jerry jones and this policy he implemented, i have to play for you one of the members of the dallas cowboys, the quarterback, dak prescott, talking about his attitude of protesting the anthem. >> no, i never protest during the anthem. i don't think that's the time or the venue to do so. the game of football has always brought me such a peace, and i think it does the same for a lot of people, a lot of people playing the game, watching the game, a lot of people that have any impact on the game. when you bring such a controversy to the stadium, to the field, to the game, it takes away from there, takes away from the joy and the love that football brings a lot of people. >> jamil, i think a lot of people anticipate thad the dallas cowboys, if they're ordered to do it, people's livelihoods are on the line. it may be surprising to people that some of the players affirmatively want -- that they're not being forced. >> right. i think what dak prescott is saying here is i would like to be a dallas cowboy beyond my rookie contract. i think that that's really all you can take from that. there are a lot of black players, especially in the civil rights era that are positioned to distract or retract from the activism of their colleagues. i think we have another example here. i think i'm morale larmd by what ezekiel elliott said, when he said this is america's team and we don't do that. america's team is not some moniker that was conferred upon them by god or some kind of legislation. it is the name of a film that was made in the '70s by nfl films, bob ryan, the producer at nfl films, my former colleague, created that slogan and then they ran off with it. really, what are we fighting about here? we're fighting about essentially marketing. that's what we have in the anthem before these games. we're having marketing for the military, marketing for the country. i don't see what any of that has to do with football. >> let me play for you -- there are very different views of different players around the league about how they feel about this policy. here is philadelphia eagles safety malcolm jenkins with a different take when he spoke to nbc's lester holt. >> we can talk about social issues and still have a great game. we talked about domestic violence for a whole year. we had commercials, we had things on the field. nobody had an issue with that. we talk about breast cancer for a whole month every year, we wear pink on the field, we do dedications, have the moms out there before the game. no issues with that. we start talking about black issues and issues of race, now all of a sudden, we just want football, we don't want the extra stuff, we want to watch the game. >> can't have it both ways. >> no, you can't. >> people are not trying to have it both ways. yahoo! finance has an article out in january on a survey where 32% of people said they stopped watching in support of donald trump. 22% said they stopped watching in solidarity with players kneeling. 12% said they stopped watching in support of colin kaepernick. is there a likelihood you'll see a lot of people start to boycott? >> that's certainly possible. on the left you heard a lot of noise about people continuing to boycott the league, considering the fact that colin kaepernick and eric reid, his former 49ers teammate who joined him in kneeling at the beginning both don't have jobs at this point. eric reid visited the cincinnati bengals on a free agent visit and was told he wasn't welcome essentially because he was unwilling to promise not to protest. i think what malcolm jenkins is saying is making an interesting point. breast cancer is something we can all agree exists. unfortunately racial en justice in this country is not something that everyone in the country agrees exists. when you have that dilemma at the heart of it, you'll have this back and forth. when the president is getting involved, it becomes an entire mess. let's not blame the players for the political mess that this has become. let's blame the people who are upset that we can't talk about racial injustice in this country. >> given the stats, who would get the benefit of the boycott? would it be donald trump for destroying the nfl for not kneeling or would it be african-americans who want to not stop black players from protesting the injustice. >> we have to consider that 70% of the players are african-american, we have to see that they can vote with their dollars. i think they should use their power to do so. but i think that trump is going to make an issue of this no matter what. it's not much of a factor. >> always a convenient foil for him. he'll continue to do it. jamil smith, thank you. have a great day. more "am joy" after the break. o! -how many of you use car insurance? -oh. -well, what if i showed you this? -[ laughing ] ho-ho-ho! -wow. -it's a computer. -we compare rates to help you get the price and coverage that's right for you. -that's amazing! the only thing that would make this better is if my mom were here. what?! an unexpected ending! your hair is so soft! is if my mom were here. did you use head and shoulders two in one? i did mom. wanna try it? 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>> i'll be on the phone to him every day. >> saying you're not going to meet your own targets? >> maybe i'm keeping the target secret. >> fiscal '88. >> we're still working on the whole thing, sam. >> the trump white house claims they respect an open and free press. let's bring in tara dow del, business and marketing consult. joe conason, editor and chief of national memo and michelle bernard. joe connie son, i'll go to you first. "the washington post" reported donald trump has been venting about banning reporters for quite some time before his office finally did one. at various moments he's vented to aides about what he considers disrespectful behavior and impertinent questions from reporters in the oval office. he's asked retaliatory action be taken against them. quote, these people shouting questions are the worst according to a current official. why do we have them in here? is this a lack of an understanding of the way it works or an author torn mindset in you view? >> joy, i was about to use the a word, the authoritarian word. he can't put them in jail, at least not yet. the best thing he can do from his point of view is to ban them from his presence. that, of course, doesn't answer the questions he refuses to answer. but in his view at least, it allows him a measure of vengeance or retribution against reporters who dare to ask questions that he doesn't like. of course, the hiring of bill shine as the deputy chief of staff, communications director of the white house from fox news where they also ignore the questions and subjects that they don't like is in perfect congruence with this kind of mindset. >> let me read for the audience, the white house correspondents association statement, we strongly disagree with barring one of our members from an open press event after she asked questions they did not like. this type of retaliation is wholly inappropriate and wrong-headed and weak. that's oliver knox. speaking of bill shine, he responded to this by saying, denying the ban ever happened. >> phil is it the right move to ban a reporter? >> could you ask her if we ever used the word ban? >> what word would you use, bill? what word would you use? >> ask her if we ever used the word ban, then i'll answer the question. >> your thoughts on the handling of this by shine? >> i think that's the first on-the-record comments by bill shine since he got his job as deputy chief of staff for communications. that's not an auspicious start for him right there. secondly, it's important to point out this is exactly the role he played for roger ailes at fox news. he emboldened him, encouraged him, enabled him. not a check on his worst impulses. i've heard that donald trump wanted the reporter banned. others thought it wasn't a good idea. bill shine is being an accelerant on donald trump, not a brake. >> tara, the thing about donald trump is his obsession with the media throughout his career. he's wanted to cultivate the new york tabloids. he wants "the new york times" to respect him. this idea that now he really despises the press, is it the flip side of this desire to be loved by them and not getting the love and now thinking what i can do is just punish them. >> the presidency actually allows him to do these unprecedented things that he's always wanted to do. yes, he wants it. trump is all about vengeance. yes, he wants vengeance on any member of the media that doesn't properly kowtow to donald trump. at the same time he absolutely wants media attention and he is creation of the media in many ways, of the tabloid media. much of it was infamy but it's still fame and he's a product of that. i want to say something about bill shine. his job, his role is to facilitate trump's worst impulses and figure out how to make them palatable and maintain the base. at fox news, the trump base is -- he played a key role, bill shine in creating the trump base. he created it with roger ailes. that's what enabled donald trump to be elected and exist today. i think people should not discount that. he understands the base better than anyone else because he created it. >> i wonder, michelle, if their perception of the size of that base may be, that they 345i be listening to donald trump rather than looking at the data. donald trump lost by millions of votes, lucky that he won by 77,000 votes in strategically important states. is there any salient see that if you just keep the base on ten that somehow he thinks he can be re-elected with just them. he doesn't seem to have an interest in anyone outside that fox news audience. >> joy, you have to remember that all the facts you just stated are considered fake news by the president and all of the members of the administration and his staff. if you look at it from their perspective, he won the election. the popular vote doesn't really matter. he's got in his belief millions of people who are on his side, who believe the media is an enemy of the state because they are an enemy of donald trump, at least from his perspective. that's what they're banking on. they're banking on millions of people who are thrilled by the prospect of donald trump making black and brown people and women across the country the evil bogeyman who is taking away people's jobs. not technology, not the 21st century workforce, but black people, brown people and women. that's what he's banking on forgetting re-elected. >> and making the media the enemy of the people. let's get breaking news in here this morning, gabe. i'm not going to read the whole tweet, but donald trump tweeted he made with a.g. sulzberger, the publisher of "the new york times" and said he spent time talking about the vast amounts of fake news, morphed into a phrase enemy of the people. "the new york times" put out a statement. he said my main purpose for accepting the media was to raise concerns about the president's anti press rhetoric. i said it was increasingly dangerous, that although the phrase fake news is untrue and harmful, i'm far more concerned about his labeling journalists the enemy of the people. i warned this inflammatory language is contributing to a rise in threats against journalists and will lead to violence. donald trump, because he also has cultivated, he wants "the new york times'" respect, what do you think the result of the meeting would do? >> i'm torn. on the one hand, i think having a dialogue with the subjects you cover is important. on the other hand, i worry this was a stunt that a.g. sulsz berger was used as a prop, that going into this meeting and donald trump seizing the narrative and tweeting out first his take on the meeting allowed him to shape the narrative to his supporters. i don't really know what the times really thought getting out of the meeting, if they thought donald trump's behavior would change in any way. >> the thing that's so fascinating about it is sulzberger in his statement is talking about he tried to stress to him the physical threats to journalists as a result of the things he's saying, not just in the u.s. but around the world. donald trump goes out and tweets the press is the enemy of the people. it doesn't seem to have had an immediate impact. >> absolutely not. we have to say this is really disturbing what he's trying to do to the media. he's trying to turn the media for his base, not for the rest of us, but for his base he's trying to make the media an enemy, not just of him, donald trump, but an enemy of theirs as well he wants the people to view the press as people, not just black and brown people and media, but the media as people seeking to hurt them and harm them and plants that victim mentality which is what fox news has cultivated over the years along with race baiting. we have to be clear how disturbing this is. this happens in other countries that we don't want to be like. >> joe conason, there's a risk of turning the media into a supp can't. that is not the typical american way. the adversarial relationship between journalists and politicians is quite standard for mayamerica. >> it is. joy, the thing about this meeting is, i think it was fine and perhaps necessary for the publisher of "the new york times" to go to the president and say, listen, your rhetoric is unacceptable. it's putting journalists in danger and runs gechbs the whole idea of a free press. the second thing about it that i think could be useful is mr. sulzberger now knows what it's like to deal with donald trump. he found out. you go to donald trump, you put the case to him. you act reasonably, you tell him what's wrong with what he did, and this is what he does to you. i think that's a good lesson for the publisher for "the new york times" to learn in person. >> the sort of end game here does seem to be whatever is going to come out of the mueller probe in ensuring that a certain percentage of americans don't believe anything they hear about the mueller probe if it's written in "the new york times" or heard on cnn or nbc, that it will just be discounted. is there a risk that that will undermine the whole country reacting universally you would think in a bipartisan way to this idea of our election being attacked by a foreign power, that that now becomes a simple matter of partisanship? >> absolutely. the fact that everything we witness every single week, there is some other fact that comes out that is so amazing that we all sit back -- at least people who are rational sit back and say, for example, what will i take for a republican majority congress to step up and protect the democracy that they have sworn to protect, and we keep seeing that the bar keeps rising higher and higher and higher and higher. the bad conduct, the inflammatory rhetoric is all being ignored. i fear that eventually we'll get to the point where this will come down to partisan lines. the president's base is going to look at anything that robert mueller comes up with and say fake news. >> gabe, what is the fox news end game here? i mean they have a very solid base that will never leave them and will never leave trump. full stop. but long term, what is the end game? if you then keep this deeply entrenched base that is incredibly isolated from everyone else in the country -- they are a minority of the country, 26%, 27% of americans are republicans. that hard isolated base, is that a long-term business strategy in the mind of rupert murdock. >> they've had those conversations inside fox news, the murdock family included. rupert murdock prizes one thing and one thing only, his profits. right now fox news is tremendously profitable. the younger generation, especially his son james murdock, has been concerned about the eroding demographics of the network's audience. the average age creeps up every year. i think the conversations are playing out. in the short term it is a valuable business. and in the long term, yes, it's going to change, but that's not rupert murdock's priorities. >> on the other side you have competitors who want to encroach on that audience, notably people like sinclair. they may be able to protect the president from impeachment with this strategy. i wonder if there's any thought about what this does to the country long term. >> any thought among the republican media? i doubt it, joy. there's a lot of thought in the rest of the country about this. the truth is for the great majority of the country the president's conduct and the question of his relationship with the kremlin is a very live issue and a grave concern. there's a minority that believes any nonsense argument that's set forth to defend him, but over time i don't think that will prevail. >> lastly, any chance that at some point fox decides to make a break, if mueller comes out with something really, really -- >> i think that is, joy, the key question about the future of donald trump's presidency. i've had very senior republicans say that what is keeping donald trump propped up, the only thing, the firewall between him and a total collapse in this presidency is the fact that fox news is continuing to cheerlead for him. if you have him telling the audience that donald trump is no longer viable, the trap door is open and he's falling through. >> gabriel sherman, thank you very much. tara, joe and michelle will be back. donald trump wants real fair farmers help from the tariffs. shirley sherrod has more on what she thinks about that. stay with us. i've always looked forward to what's next. and i'm still going for my best even though i live with a higher risk of stroke due to afib not caused by a heart valve problem. so if there's a better treatment than warfarin, i'm up for that. eliquis. eliquis is proven to reduce stroke risk better than warfarin. plus has significantly less major bleeding than warfarin. eliquis is fda-approved and has both. so what's next? 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it's never been the case. it would be great if that would happen now, but i don't have much hope that it will. >> one of the issues has been that black farmers, but also small farmers, have not had the same access to the federal pots of money made available to big farm industries and the big companies. have you experienced that the federal government has ever reached down to the smallest farmer and particularly to african-american farmers, but really to all small farmers? >> you're correct. i think back to the '70s when farmers were being pushed to go fence row to fence row with crops. it's the big guys who made it big and small farmers who attempted to do that really got hurt. you remember in the '80s we had the farm crisis, we lost a lot of farmers, we lost a lot of black farmers, and black people lost a lot of land. small farmers hurt. so we have to deal mostly in local markets. what will that do? what will losing these markets in the world do to farmers who have tried to deal locally? it's going to put more products on the market. the ones who will be hurt will be the small guys. that's the small farmers we work with throughout the south. >> ironically you were pushed out of the administration. they later, of course, apologized to you, but in 2010 when breitbart.com and the tea party went after you for a speech you gave to the naacp in georgia which they misconstrued and edited in a misleading way, how ironic is it to you, ms. sherrod, you have real silence from the tea party world on the idea of essentially providing welfare to federal farmers because of something this administration did to them with the tariffs? >> that's exactly what it is, it's welfare for people who are well off. you can talk about taking away s.n.a.p. benefits and so forth for the poor, but this is welfare, and no one is thinking of it in that sense. >> why do you suppose that the same people who denounce the s.n.a.p. program which used to be called food stamps which, by the way, helps farmers, because people spend that money on produce. w >> that's correct. >> why do you suspect that those who denounce welfare are okay with that? >> i wish i had the answer to that. maybe we could figure out how to get to them. they have pushed large farmers for years. they don't think of the small guys who help communities survive. we've lost -- we have people who are suffering out in these counts where you don't have a large population, the small farmers who live in there can help keep the whole community operating in the way it should. we just think about the big guys in this country. it's the small farmers who keep these communities operating like they should for people who live in them. >> those who have followed the work of civil rights know the sherrod name is synonymous is synonymous with long-time work in the area of civil writes. you wrote a book published a few years ago in 2012. give us some advice. this is a scary people for a lot of people. a lot of people are afraid. we're seeing a lot of race-based violence out there and people are scared. what kind of advice would you give to people how to stand up to the politics of fer? >> well, we can't stop working. you look back to the civil rights movement, how we stuck together to get the gains that we have, we have to live through these periods. we can't forget what we know. we can't forget to do what we know how to do. so we need to work together in every way we can work together, is what we need to do. that's what we've done through the years. that that we can do, we try to do it. >> just to get people to understand kind of what -- how many small farmers are even left? i think when we used to think of the family farm, we thought of the basket of the country. that's not true anymore. >> when you look at who they say a farmers, that number is going down. what person would want to go into this struggling the way you have to struggle. it has to be in the heart, and it is for a lot of people. farming becomes a part of you. taking care of the land becomes a part of you, helping to feed your community becomes a part of you and it's something you want to do, it's something you can do. >> you are executive committee of the southern rural black women's initiative. talk a little bit about the work you're doing now. >> in fact, that's why i've had to come to this area. we have a three-state project consistent of women throughout georgia, alabama and mississippi. we've start a co-op, we do asset development work, we do civic engagement work, we work with young women in leadership and so forth. it's rewarding work because then you can have some influence on young women who are coming forward today who want to do good work? their communities but need some guidance in being able to figure out what to do and how to do it. >> i don't want to get you pulled into politics but there is a black woman running for the governorship of your state, stacy abrams. can she wen in a state like georgia? >> we're going to do everything we can. i will say i will do everything i can to help her. i'm hoping she can be successful with that. we thought we wouldn't -- it would be 100 years before we get a black president. that happened. i would say, yes, it's probably -- and should be possible in the state of georgia to see that kind of change. >> absolutely, i would like to say she lost her son tragically in race-based violence is running, foo. black women in georgia seem to have something special about them. what is it about you black ladies in georgia? >> we just have to figure out how to survive and we go for it. >> shirry sherrod, thank you for being here. we hope you'll come back to new york often. >> okay, thank you. >> thank you. >> she is great. i want to take a quick moment to wish speedy recovery to georgia congressman john lewis who was hospitalized yesterday after falling ill on a plane. the spokesperson for the congressman said he was hospitalized for routine observation and is expected to be released today. get well soon, sir, we absolutely need you. more "am joy" after the break. the in-laws have moved in with us. that's confident. but it's not kayak confident. kayak searches hundreds of travel and airline sites to find the best flight for me. so i'm more than confident. how's your family? 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our guests are back with me. okay, ms. tara, business lady, the economy was terrible when it was under -- this is four, john harwood treating the strong 4.1% growth touted by trump on fixing the economy, it ranks fifth to what happened under obama. >> trump, magic magician, sourc sourcerer. once again, lying. we're laughing, u be in fairness to the seriousness of what he's doing, it is again gaslight iin. we cannot let that go. what trump understands is the value of the headline. he knows there's a large portion of the population that's very busy that's only going to see the headline and they're not going to read below the headline which is why it's so important that democrats strategically push back. trump inherited a good economy. president obama inherited an economy losing 800,000 jobs a month. he's basically riding the natural tra jekt arjectortrajecp is riding of obama's economy. >> what's interesting, michelle, you have this sort of thinking that the economy would magically fixed the day donald trump was inaugurated, even though the economy is substantially the same, but the things that an mate the republican party don't anymore. here is larry kudlow talking about the sky high def sits talking about paul ryan, donald trump and mitch mcconnell's tax cuts and whether or not they're ever going to go away. >> is president trump ever going to try to reduce the deficit? >> yes, yes, of course. the effects of this economic growth boom are going to be a major important factor, very important. >> right now it's raising the deficit though. right now the tax cuts are raising the deficit. >> sometimes in the short run in order to invest in the economy, lower tax rates do yield lower revenues. i reckon it will take a year, maybe 18 months to start turning that around. >> michelle, if deficits don't start going down in 18 months, then what will they say? >> i can't even begin to fathom what they will possibly say in 18 months. i guess they'll probably find a way to blame it on either hillary clinton, barack obama or the fake news. what's interesting is -- frankly, i guess a little sad for diehard republicans is this is proof that this is no longer your daddy's republican party. if deficits don't matter, if the fact that the president is now isolationist, anti trade, and we're already seeing his trade policies are having a disproportionately negative impact on the people who voted him into office, what does the republican party stand for? they're anti trade now, they're isolationist, they don't care about deficits. i don't know where they go from here. >> it is interesting. joe, you wrote about -- i tell people please read it, it is one of the greatest books on the insane political era of the 1990s. as a zunt of bill clinton. part of the reason he survived impeachment with high approval ratings was the economy. the economy was genuinely great in the 1990s as a result of the policies during that era, the political policies, some of which he gets credit for. donald trump is not politically benefiting from what you might call the obama economy. the economy is strong. low unemployment rate. wall street has seemingly not reacted even to the tariffs. it's still going up. why isn't donald trump benefiting from that or the republican party? they don't seem to be benefiting at all. >> i'd say there are a number of reasons, joy. one is trump always steps on their own message. michelle is right, the headlines matter and we have upwards of 4% right now. he will find ways to make sure that message is overshadowed by bad news including the russia investigation, his latest tweet storm, the fact he's attacked all our allies and he's become a stooge of the kremlin. all those things step on the good message for him about the economy. but the other piece of it is that all of the policies that he's actually responsible for aside from the tax cut which is deficit spending are hurting his base, are hurting lots of americans in and out of his base, the attempts to cut medicaid, all the attacks on health care, the tariffs that are costing people jobs all over the country, the tariffs that are causing so much trouble in farm country. these issues are uppermost in many people's minds. they have to affect his poll numbers every day. >> it is interesting, tara, and i think i might have said this to you before, but i have a theory that the idea that people vote on the economy is fiction. it isn't true. people vote their values, unless the economy is really bad in which case you see wave and change elections. on the issue of tariffs that joe mentioned, they are hurting the states where donald trump won where he's popular. it doesn't seem to be impacting the people. the people who like him, still like him. this is larry kudlow, free trader, defending the tariffs and doing what is more important to the base than what the tariffs are doing to their pocketbook. >> people say, well, president trump's tariffs are damaging this, that and the other thing. i say don't blame president trump, he inherited a hornl trading system, including the world trade organization, mostly china, but not only china. he's trying to fix it. >> he hit two buzzwords, world trade organization, global lichl, china. if they're not blaming obama, they're doing one of those two things. i will say that's more important to his base than what's happening to their pocketbooks. >> i think the culture war is very important. that's why we hear on fox news, the war on christmas, the nfl. thoos things are important. if the economy is bad and people are hurting bad, that's when the economy truly does matter. i do think for some people there is a problem because remember wages are not growing. in some instances wages are going down. so maybe that doesn't matter for trump's base, for the people who are very much a part of the cult. but if you're someone who is not part of the cult and you're seeing this massive tax cut that all these corporations are getting, that your employers are getting and your costs have gone up, student loans, all these things are going up, i think there is movement around the economy for those people. i think as wages continue to remain stagnant, i think people will feel it. people aren't stupid. they may not get to see everything beyond the headlines as i said earlier, but people do -- i think the pocketbook issues affect it. i think the issue is democrats need to take advantage of that and make sure they're repeatedly messaging to the fact that these tax cuts by and large benefited the wealthiest top billionaires in this country. what's it doing for you? >> absolutely. the democrats learned through the obama administration that president obama's personal popularity and the improvements to the economy from things like the stimulus, some people were getting health care for the first time, it sure as heck didn't benefit democrats. it was discounted -- people would vote to repeal their own obamacare, not even realizing it's my medicaid, not their medicaid. i wonder if that disconnect, it ends up hurting the republicans because they don't benefit from anything that makes him popular. >> it will eventually hurt republicans. i want to quickly go back to your statement about bill clinton. here is the irony in all the analysis we're doing today, bill clinton was more of a republican than donald trump was. a lot of his policies actually benefited donald trump's base, nafta, the north american free trade act, welfare reform, the organized crime bill that the clinton administration passed, a lot of things democrats didn't like at the time. bill clinton was smart about it. he went after blue dog democrats, went after republicans, he garnered their support. those policies inure to the people who voted donald trump into office. if donald trump wants credit for a good economy, maybe he needs to govern more like bill clinton and barack obama did. >> the irony, joe conason, all those policies turned the liberal part of the democratic base against hillary clinton because they blamed her for it. >> yeah. there's much nuance that was missed in all of that. but i wanted to say, joy, the most important thing to remember about donald trump is his biggest broken promise on the economy which is infrastructure. that's an issue that really ought to cut with the electorate across the board. they have failed to do what they ought to have done with infrastructure over and over again, and that is a really, really salient issue for all kinds of working class people. >> absolutely and paid no price for it. tara, joe, michelle, thank you all. have a great sunday. before we go to break, you tweeters may have seen this this morning. rudy giuliani tweeted out a single word, "you." we would like to think that he meant you at "am joy" are trending. or maybe this. ♪ you, you got what i need ♪ but you say he's just a friend ♪ friend ♪ ♪ you say he's just a friend w jumbo snow crab with tender dungeness crab. or try crab lover's dream. sweet, juicy king crab and jumbo snow crab cozied up with crab linguini alfredo. even our shrimp is crab-topped! so hurry in and get your butter-dunkin' game on! 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>> val is a disloyal. did she come put money or your books? did she visit you? $500 on your books on day one. >> she called me on the phone. >> what did she want to talk you about changing up your lifestyles, your ways. you're not a thug. drug dealer. you went to jail on a fire technicality. >> did i? >> yes. >> how are we supposed to know that hipsters is so flalabmmabl. >> it tells stories of two friends. i spoke to the writers and stars of the movie. take a look. >> all right. i have to start by asking what on earth you're playing with there in we are much better funded show than i thought.? in funded show than i thought. in show than i thought.in we are m show than i thought.n we are muw than i thought. we are much bet than i thought. >> we're building a high-rise on your set. >> i hope that means we're going to get better food. >> you might. but you might not be able to eat it. >> better food that i'll have to send a friend to get it. you've got this great film out blind spotting. gra congratulations. ten year to get it done. less than a month of filming. that's a good filming making lesson for people that want to go into the business. tell us how this came about. >> so tennish years ago, more than that, 11 or 12 years ago. one of our producers while scouring the internet came across a bunch of rafael's poetry videos and reached out to him asking if he thought this kind of heightened language might translate to film. we had been working together for a bunch of year at that point already mostly making songs and music videos, things like that. a couple years later he introduced justin keith to me and the four of us decided we would embark on this journey to figure out what a film would be that had the spine of verse. we decided it should be set in oakland, california because that's place we know very well and we're from the bay area. we knew we wanted it to star us. that's as much as we knew. the rest is figuring out who miles and collin were. trying to make sure the film felt appropriate to the moment. a lot of updating happened. those were the things we knew going in. >> i wonder about this idea of making a film where you started in the obama era when the race kfrl conversation is the thing people want to have and finishing it in this current era and whether that struck you guys as you were editing film how the country with changing? >> we're writing this film over the course of ten years. the conversation of the country has changed. i don't know -- the people who wanted to talk about race in the obama era and the people who don't want to talk about race are still the ones who don't want to talk about it now. that's a presidential shift, not a cultural shift. one of the things that really happened while we were working on this film is when oscar grant happened, this as very prominent thing that everyone talked about. it was on the news cycle all the time and protests and riots. thinking we have this footage that shows shotgun would happen and we would all stare at this and change the way we were functioning as a society and that didn't happen. more and more tapes have piled up and perfect evidence has come about and nothing has happened. now we have film that we landed on that's about the idea that a group of people can all watch the same thing, can all see the same circumstance and view it differently. that's what we wanted this movie to be about. that unconscious inference. >> congratulations on this film. a great effort. anybody who is experienced gentrification, i live in brooklyn, we 100% identify with it. don't make us wait ten years for another one. >> we'll do our best. thank you so much. >> you can catch the full interview on joy.msnbc.com. (vo) what if this didn't have to happen? i didn't see it. (vo) what if we could go back? what if our car... could stop itself? in iihs front-end crash prevention testing, nobody beats the subaru impreza. not toyota. not honda. not ford. the subaru impreza. more than a car, it's a subaru. let someone else do the heavy lifting. tripadvisor compares prices from over 200 booking sites to find the right hotel for you at the lowest price. so you barely have to lift a finger. or a wing. tripadvisor. you made moonshine in a backwoods still. smuggled booze and dodged the law. even when they brought you in, they could never hold you down. when i built my family tree and found you, i found my sense of adventure. i set off on a new life, a million miles away. i'm heidi choiniere, and this is my ancestry story. now with over 10 billion historical records, discover your story. get started for free at ancestry.com

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