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Manafort, but also is potential knowledge of what papadopoulos was talking about. if manafort, maybe gates, had knowledge that papadopoulos was being pitched on this idea, what does that say? >> ambiguous language. donald trump isnt going to do this trip and in a separate sentence, it should be someone low level. its not clear if someone should go and do these trips, which is bad news for them or someone low level should communicate back this information. look, one of the things that is the endu...

Appropriate actions. >> what would you have done? >> well, i would -- i probably would have had a conversation with somebody in the law enforcement arena. i dont know if i would have had a conversation with the candidate in this particular case, but based upon my experience and expertise, i would have notified somebody in the law enforcement arena. >> i think its a big negative fact, probably not to mueller, and when he looked at those guys, he is like, why didnt they? lets feed cure kwraus fios...

>> yes, it gets you inside the trump campaign at such a critical moment. the spring of 2016, which is just before we learned that the stolen e-mails exist. the public learns that. and its just before june when donald trump jr. has his infamous meeting at trump tower about getting dirt on hillary clinton from russia. so we learned -- one of the things, when donald trump gets the e-mail -- donald trump jr. gets the e-mail, saying russia wants to help, he doesnt say wow, thats a surprise or boy -- ...

Find all these missing e-mails. so, at no point did they ever take seriously the idea that russia could actually work to undermine our election, to undermine our democracy. they thought, hey, this is great. well take all comers who want to help donald trump become president. now as president, someone responsible for the presidency, he still has shown no interest to do anything about it. so thats what i think is so important in all of this. were getting insight into a mind-set about working with ...

You brought him into the campaign. did you know about any of this? >> no, i didnt. i read about it in the midst of the summer this year like everyone else. i never heard of papadopoulos, never had any interaction with the campaign leaders around me. and the leaders of the washington office of the campaign didnt even know who he was until his name appeared in the press. he was the coffee boy. you might have called him a foreign policy analyst, but, in fact, if he was going to wear a wire, all we ...

Indictment and guilty plea shows that paul manafort and the trump campaign were rebuffing these attempts of junior-level people like papadopoulos, trying to work outside the scope of his work description for the campaign. >> it would be easier to accept that premise if there were an additional fact we dont have. i call you up. were working on a campaign together. imagine that, mike. i say to you theres a guy from russia who says he has these e-mails they stole from hillary clinton and he wants t...