they don't know yet how far with this. but people are -- were tired already of this not having a relationship with america and now they will see an opportunity to increase business and things will come from america that will create jobs. people in cuba believe that we have so much in common with america. and with americans. and so this is certainly good for both partners we believe. cuba plays a very important role and now they are expressing how happy they are and they see america with different eyes. so it opens a new market for american producers is good for the american business with the
congressman, your thoughts as alan gross comes home and the possibility of normalization with cuba. >> first of all, we're always elated when an american gets to come home, so i congratulate alan gross. he got his freedom, he got to spend hannukah with his family. that's wonderful news. what is not wonderful news is that the families of the brothers to the rescue shootdown, those four wonderful american patriots, they are spending yet one more christmas without their loved ones and they died at the hands of fidel and raul castro. what is sad is that tomorrow the cuban people will wake up and they will still have no political freedom. they will have no human rights to be expected. there are no political parties that exist in cuba, that has not changed. obama has given away the store. has given everything to the castro regime. of course the regime is happy. we got nothing in return. >> congressman-elect carbello,
you are a new generation of cuban american. your generation, does it feel -- in south florida, does it feel the same way as the older generation or are they looking forward to some sort of normalization? >> we all wanting the same thing for the cuban people. we all want the same thing for the united states and that's a strong america that leads and a free cuba. nothing that happened today gets us closer to those goals. the president of the united states has made every american serving abroad less safe today. he's provided a blueprint for dictators throughout the world. if you want to extract unilateral concessions from the united states, all you have to do is hold an american hostage and be patient. we have given cuba everything at the president's disposal for alan gross. we're happy that he's back. we're happy that he's back. but alan gross wins today, that's a good thing. the cuban government wins. but u.s. national security loses. freedom and democracy throughout
the world lose. >> congresswoman, was our foreign policy with cuba working? we have this 1996 act where we have this embargo and i guess the president is trying to sort of soften up some aspects of it. i'm not even sure if the law allows him to do it but that's a wh whole other debate. was our foreign policy working? >> you bring up a good point about him possibly breaking the law. i believe he has broken the law. there are three laws that he has violated. we're going to do an investigation about the clarity of how he got the mission to do this. but what it shows, greta, when you ask a key question, has our policy been working. well, the policy of 190 other countries who have been wheeling and dealing and going to tourist trips and doing everything with castro, they have not brought cuba any closer to freedom or democracy. so it's not that the united states policy has not worked, the other policy of engagement
has not worked. and in fact what president obama has done today, normalizing relations, that will not bring the cuban people any closer to democracy either. the one that will not change is the cuban communist dictatorial regime. these guys are not going to change. >> congressman-elect, i started to ask you before about men and women ine. you're in your early 30s if i remember from the last time we talked. do they feel the same way you do about it or is that more of an older generation thing as we look towards cuba? >> yeah, greta, i told you our generation wants the same thing that all generations living in this country want. we want to see the cuban people free. my parents were born in cuba. they had to leave. my grandfather served a political sentence, prison sentence in cuba. so we feel it in our hearts. and today we are very sad because we feel that for the
first time in this 56-year-long drama that the cuban people have lived, for the first time the person in the white house is on the wrong side of history. we want the president of the united states to stand with the cuban people. we want the president of the united states to stand with those heroes that are sitting in castro's jail today, and we want the president of the united states to stand for a strong united states that leads with a clear voice and with moral authority, and that is not what happened today. and we shouldn't be surprised, greta, because this is the same president that's at the table with the iranians. this is the same president that draws red lines and ignores them. so what happened today is alarming, but it's not surprising. >> thank you to both of you for joining us. >> thank you, greta. thank you, carlos. >> congressman chris van hollen has more on the government plane that lifted alan gross out of cuba after a very tough five years in prison and landed back on u.s. soil.
he joins us. nice to see you, congressman. before i get to the question about how the flight was, what did we gain out of this? >> what we gained is a change in policy that might finally have a chance -- >> might finally. >> -- to enpower the cuban people. what we know the policy has been a failure. >> what was the failure at spent of it? >> the failure was that by isolating and punishing cuba, you were somehow going to get a change in regime from the castros or have an opening in cuba clearly failed. what it did help do is sustain the castro regime. the castro brothers have survived eight presidents. >> except that we're sort of getting to the end of this biological clock with the two castros. i mean they can't last forever. they're both getting to be pretty elderly gentlemen. and cuba isn't a threat to us in any way. >> but we now have an opportunity to empower the cuban
people because the one thing that they're probably most afraid of is more engagement, more travel from americans, more trade, more communication, opening up the world to the cuban people. no one is talking about the castro regime changing their mind, that's not the issue. they didn't change their mind with 54 years of the failed policy we have. more engagement with the cuban people, a little more taste of free market and free ideas will, i think, encourage more demand for change from the cuban people. >> what was that plane ride like? did alan gross -- when did you first see him? >> we first saw him when we walked off the plane and the tarmac into a build in havana. as you can see from the pictures he's lost a lot of weight, he's very fragile. >> where was his wife at that time? >> she was the first to come in the room. that's why his face lit up. judy has been fighting for five years to bring alan home. >> you see that picture?
it's a great picture. >> i can tell you he was in great spirits. obviously even greater spirits when he got on the plane and it lifted off. he's maintained some strength, even though he's wiry and gave everybody a big bear hug. >> this is not new to you. he campaigned for you years ago. >> alan was one of the people who helped go door to door in my first campaign. after he was taken prisoner, i worked very closely with his wife, judy, and his entire team to try and make this day come about. but there were lots of ups and lots of downs -- >> you got a good phone call the night before this election, i hear. >> one of the things that happened is as we got -- over the years we were ail to get alan more privileges, including calling. it used to be once a week and then he got to be on the phone so, yes, i got a call from him in october saying best wishes in the election. so he did bring me luck. >> it mm-hmm been amazing after you left cuba airspace.
when they leave that airspace and enter the u.s. airspace, what a thrill that is. >> it was. you can see a great weight lifted. >> did they announce that? >> and he kind of said yeah, you know. so it was a great moment. >> it's always great to have an american home who was held overseas. congressman, thank you. i imagine it was a great trip and lots of fun. >> it was fun, but everyone was very, you know, on edge until we actually got alan on the plane. >> i don't doubt that. congressman, nice to see you. thanks. >> thank you. while alan gross finally got his freedom today, so did three cubans. many republicans and some democrats are calling it prisoner swap. the white house denies it's a prisoner swap. ed henry joins us live. ed, what difference if we call this a prisoner swap or not? i know the white house denies it, but what's the big deal about this? >> well, the deal, greta, is the white house is saying getting alan gross out was separate from the swap. they don't want to be tied up and look like there was a trade there. they're saying that cuba on a
humanitarian basis let alan gross out, then the u.s. was able to make this swap of three cuban spies, as you say, let out of american prison and then there was an intelligence asset to the u.s. government, we believe a cuban man, who was helping the u.s. from cuba thrown -- he was caught by the cuban authorities at some point and thrown in prison, been there for some 20 years. so that was the swap. look, that might be a distinction without a difference. all of this was happening around the same time. it was a deal between the president of the united states, the dictator from cuba. i think the big question moving forward, you've got democrats, not just republicans but democrats like bob menendez saying they think it was a direct swap and how that might matter moving forward. will someone like bob menendez go along with formally lifting the embargo with cuba. he's saying no. while there are republicans not normally aligned with the
president, congressman plake wants to see the embargo lifted so this is scrambling the parties a little bit. >> ed, thank you. while some are jumping for joy, some are blasting president obama for the plans to normalize economic and diplomatic things with cuba. lindsey graham said i will do all that i can to block the use of funts to open an embassy in cuba. even senator robert menendez is not wild about president obama's plan. he said trading mr. gross for three convicted criminals sets an extremely dangerous press denting. and joining us -- john, what did we get out of this? >> we got a chance, an opportunity to turn the page. >> for what, though? >> he's talked about this going
back to 2007-2008. he'd wanted to say let's get rid of the old policy and start a new policy. that wasn't possible as long as alan gross was held captive. releasing him gives you the chance for the new page but there are limits to what he can do. senator graham is going to try to hold up funding. the idea of full normalization, a lot of lift has to happen and that's where the give and take has to happen with the castro regime. you wouldn't see that at all without these first steps. >> susan, i'm all for making friends with everybody and i think it's important everybody be friends, but the fact is that this regime, they're monsters. i mean we're not talking about the human rights violations going on in cuba right now. i'd love to have a great place and everything. but they have the worst record for freedom of the press, they lock people up for political opponents. so i'm not quite sure is the idea that maybe if we're a little bit nicer they're going to release prisoners and they're going to stop locking people up and all of a sudden let newspapers flourish? >> i think the point congressman
van hollen made is a good one. no one is expecting the castro regime to change. but no rights are going to be added to people's lives because of what happened today. but they are getting near the end of their biological clock as you said and there may be an opening in the future where people will want freedom and a freer society will evolve. but the points made today by rubio and menendez and others who are opposed to this are that this is not going to change anything. people aren't going to get more rights. they're still going to be human rights violations. whatever freedoms are provided by the u.s., the internet or travel, the cuban government will control tightly. that's a really important thing to be aware of. >> so essentially, john, susan is saying we're trying to get our foot in the door for when the castros die. we're trying to get ahead of the game. >> that's the theory, but i mean what the people who support the embargo have always said is this is our last and always leverage
point for when they're gone. that is when we want to negotiate with their successors and say you want normalization, you want greater economic interaction, then give some more freedom to your people. let them speak freely, worship freely, move freely. you got none of those things today. i don't really see -- there's the theory if we engage a little more, they will be inspired. i hope that's right, i fear it's not and i fear the cuban people will be owe pressed longer than they would have. >> i think they think the cuban people themselves will force change in the government by having more exposure. >> we've had some bad luck with the arab spring where we have the expectation. it's really hard to predict what people are going to do. panel, stay with us. straight ahead, former florida governor, jeb bush, and he's a potential presidential candidate. he says the obama administration's decision to restore diplomatic ties with cuba undermines america's credibility. you'll hear more from him. plus a long-time friend of governor bush goes on the record
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governor coming out one day out of the gate and skewering the president? >> well, jeb bush just a few weeks ago said the problem with the restrictions on cuba is that they're not tight enough and we should be tightening the screws, not loosening them. with this, this goes back to a feeling he's had for a very long time that we cannot give an inch. we cannot give anything to cuba until castro gives freedom to the people of cuba. keep in mind jeb bush's background. he moved to south florida in the early 1980s, established connections, friendships, worked closely with cuban exiles who have very strong feelings about this. oppose the castro regime. later when he got into politics he worked very hard to bring them into the gop fold in florida and he's succeeded to great extent. this became a very important part of his political base and later the gop political machine
after he left office. that said, the political climate here in florida, polls do show a shift of opinion in favor, more people wanting to see us improve relations with cuba. but you have to keep in mind those who oppose the direction that we saw the president take today are very fervent and very passionate about this. they tend to be very loyal voters and often can be single issue voters when it comes to this. >> we only have 20 seconds left. what does this mean having -- if governor bush gets in, what does that mean for senator marco rubio? >> it's going to be a problem for marco rubio. if this debate advances to the senate, it can elevate his profile. but keep in mind they're very much aligned in terms of how they believe with respect to this issue and in terms of donors and support with jeb bush out front. this continues to be a problem for marco rubio if he chooses to run for president. >> craig, thanks. all eyes on florida, of course, as always as we approach 2016 in two years now. thank you, craig.
>> sure thing, thank you. our next guest is the chairman of the american conservative union and he has been friends with former governor jeb bush for decades. good evening, sir. >> greta, good to be with you. >> i noticed you've told us about the fact that governor jeb bush might run for president. you said you have mixed feelings and you go on to say but he'll be a difference maker. what did you mean by that? >> a difference maker meaning, look, we live in an area of gridlock, less people turn out to vote than they ever did before. more people are registering no party affiliation. folks don't seem to be happy with either party. so jeb bush, who's a conservative problem solver, is coming and saying, look, it's time we get together, we heal our nation, we move forward with a positive vision, but we've got things to do. we've got energy policy to put together. we've got tax reform. we've got to balance our budget. we've got to deal with our
entitlements. i'm going to be the candidate with ideas. i'm not going to go out there with a strategist telling me precisely how to win. i'm going to share my vision and i hope the american people buy into it. i hope they do. if they don't, i'll go home in peace but i'm not going to be led by a group of strategists who tell me what to say, what not to say and end up in a process where i'm part of this toxic environment that politics is all about today. he's just not going to do that. >> i can tell you, i hear the consultants in these races all the time and so i get the frustration that candidates can have with the consultants but i'm curious, there's a big difference from being a great governor or great president than being a great campaigner, which office. in iowa, you've got to go door to door, you've got to be in kitchens, you've got to talk to the people. some people are better talking to audiences. is he the kind that can sit in a kitchen and is he willing to do that? >> i've seen jeb bush walk down a street with me in the dark of
night and stop to see a homeless man and see how he was doing. this is a different kind of candidate. one of the most caring, one of the most compassionate candidates you're going to see in the trail in your lifetime. >> i'm curious, what's the downside for him? what's going on in his mind why he might not? it sure looks like his toe is in the water, but why might he not run? >> well, look, he's proud of his family. he's got one son who just won statewide office in texas. he's got another son who's by his side every day in business. he loves his daughter, loves his wife. he travels a lot but is more at home than he was before. he's dangled a bit in business, he's done well there. he gets to play golf on sundays. he's going to give up a lot of this life to try to help america get back on its feet and to heal our country, and that's a major sacrifice and he's giving up a lot to do that. >> does he have the fire in the belly to do that? >> he's the most competitive guy i've ever met.
i've been with him and two campaigns for his dad, three campaigns for him, two campaigns for his brother and he's the most tireless worker, most compassionate and competitive guy i've met in the process, so he'll be ready for anything and anyone if he decides to do it. >> we just saw a picture of the two of you and of course i hope you'll come back because if he does get in, we'll need to talk to you a lot and find out what's going on in the governor bush campaign. thank you, sir, for joining us. >> my pleasure, thanks, greta. and you can see our complete interview with al cardenas. executive orders by any other name. president obama finding another way to bypass congress. that's coming up. here at fidelity, we give you the most free research reports, customizable charts, powerful screening tools, and guaranteed 1-second trades. and at the center of it all is a surprisingly low price -- just $7.95. in fact, fidelity gives you lower trade commissions
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so tell me your thoughts on this. >> yeah, i think this is a big victory for the bad guys. i think that's the dangerous precedent in this. this was essentially a terrorist act and by sony now giving in after equivocating a little bit, you go back to the original making of this movie, if you're going to make the movie and not stand by it at the end. my colleague talked to president obama even today and the president's advice is go to the movie. obviously this was the intended effect was to squelch this movie, to make it not happen and it's worked. >> you know what, i've told both of you during the break, i actually -- i've been to north korea, as you know, three times. north korea looks at this -- they have nuclear weapons and they are so erratic, you can't even point at a picture of kim jong-un without risking going to some prison camp. i don't know why sony didn't make this a fictionalize movie about some make-believe country
because we're not dealing with normal people. we're not dealing with a normal situation. we're dealing with people who see us as complete enemies and we're trying to kill them every single day. >> i'm noticing on social media people are joking can they make requests to producers about what kind of pictures sony can produce because it looks as though they're being dictated in terms of what they are going to put out there. i think that's the sad fact about all of this. we should not have a foreign country dictating the terms of what comes out, no matter who they are. >> of course we shouldn't, but we're not dealing with a full deck on this. i mean that's the problem is that, you know, this is a predictable response. if you've ever been there, literally they think we are training seven days a week, all three of you and i'm training every day to try to kill them when we're not doing any of that. but they see that and see this as such an insult, they're going to go nuts. >> but what does going nuts mean? >> this, this. >> are producers upset about the hacking.
>> it's a terrible thing to hack. look, they did a terrible -- if they're the ones that did it, it's a terrible thing to hack. it's a terrible thing for us to bow to the pressure. it's a terrible thing to have the terrorists act on the movie, but it's all going back to the judgment of making that movie, knowing that we were dealing with a situation that wasn't quite normal. >> i mean i think north korea is the most brutal regime in the world. it's run by a totalitarian psychopath. i think if hollywood had any decency, they would make a serious film detailing the brutality that is going on. >> that's a great idea. >> an i think right now -- i hope they're just delaying this. we don't know all the details. maybe there is some credible threat we don't know about. imagine if isis -- isis is actually carrying out terrorist attacks against americans. what if they threaten an american mall or football game? >> i know, it's terrible. >> they caved to pressure because they feared people would not show up on one of the most profitable days for movies.
>> i am not defending north korea. i'm just saying it's a very dangerous situation sony got into without using good judgment to begin with. i am not defending north korea in any way. >> they made a movie they aren't prepared to stand behind. does it even look funny? what exactly is the joke in all of this? i think sony has a lot to explain to the american people and to the world community about the making of this movie and of course this halting and contradictory response. >> and all their embarrassing e-mails too. >> we didn't even get near their e-mails. anyway, panel, thank you. if you are outraged over president obama's use of executive action, brace yourselves for this. turn out it is not just executive orders. president obama also using something called the presidential memorandum to bypass congress. according to "usa today," president obama has issued the memorandum more often than any other president. gregory courty joins us. nice to see you. we have presidential memorandums and executive orders. what's the difference?
>> the differences can be subtle. executive orders are what we're probably all familiar with. they're numbered. executive order 1033 or something like that. mem -- memorandums are called by scholars executive orders by another name. they're more regulatory in nature but very similar and both carry the same force of law. >> they're essentially the same then, right? >> they're used a little differently. >> but you could -- you could use them interchangeably? >> there are some areas where previous presidents have used an executive order. for example, nixon had an executive order on let's get rid of some of these federal properties we're not using and save some money. president obama did that by memorandum. >> so the fact is that all these things that they're doing by executive order or presidential memorandum, are there instances when they can only use one and not the other? >> they tend to only use
executive order -- >> but there is any restriction? >> if you're going to amend an executive order, you're going to use an executive order to do that. neither of these terms are defined anywhere in the law much less the constitution. so it's precedents. >> president obama says the truth is even with all the actions i've taken this year, i'm issuing executive orders at the lowest rate in over 100 years. he's not mentioning the presidential memorandums so i'm wur wondering if that's a slippery quote. >> he said people didn't have a problem with george bush when he uses executive action. he uses the terms executive order and executive action somewhat interchangeably. >> so slippery, transparent and deceptive? >> i have no evidence to suggest this is a deliberate misdirection by the white house. >> he must know the difference between presidential memorandum and executive order. he's got to know the difference. >> he signs them. >> and when you add presidential
memorandums and executive orders together, is president obama on the low end or has he done more? >> he's certainly signed more presidential memoranda than others. when you call them both executive actions, he's on pace to take more than any president. >> the reason i ask this because as i read this, it seems that they're essentially the same thing. whether they have historically been used for different purposes or not. you can amend executive orders with executive orders. it seems when the president says i'm issuing executive orders at the lowest rate in more than 100 years, he's being a little slippery because he's not mentioning the presidential memorandums which he does so much more than other presidents on the presidential memorandums. >> no. these are precise terms that even the president, even the president's press secretary sometimes slip up. josh earnest said he's issued an executive order on immigration. there was no such thing. the immigration executive action
that republicans are so upset about were not done by executive order, they were done by memorandum. last year when he took executive action on gun control, those were not executive orders, those are presidential memoranda. if he's going to tell the epa how to enforce the clean air act, that's done in a memorandum not an executive order. right now are democrats on a desperate search for a message for 2016? plus we're trying to solve a mystery that has to do with the release of alan gross and sergeant tahmooressi finally released from a mexican prison. celebrate what's new, the bigger, better menu at red lobster! with more of what you love! try our newest wood-grilled combination!
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it's one of those things i think that went away from -- that democrats didn't do a very good job of in the 2014 election. we talked about everything but the economy and that's still going to be -- it's still going to be a driving issue in 2016. there has to -- and change has to happen. we have a changing economy. there have got to be some new ideas out there about how to effect its impact on the american people. >> like what? how do you convince the middle class america that something good is happening? what's the message to them? >> it's about how we're going to adjust to it. kodak -- when kodak went bankrupt, it had 187,000 employees. when instagram sold itself to facebook for a billion dollars, it had 13 employees. both parties are not addressing the -- how technology and how fast paced we're moving forward into the future is actually
hollowing out jobs there. it's not just attacking wall street. like that's one of the things that is a go-to populist liberal you know, elizabeth warren attack wall street. wall street does need to be reformed. republicans may offer tax cuts. the tax system does need to be reformed but no one is addressing the economic consequences of where this tech economy is taking us and how do we get the american people to participate in it and whether that's job retraining, other things, but somebody has got to speak to it. >> but that requires a long vision. it seems to me the voters are looking more right now. can i put food on the table and pay the tuition, so that's the problem. >> that's right. and, you know, everybody is going to offer up really quick, simple solutions that no one believes anymore. or you've got to take a step back and really talk to the american people with what we have to do to be competitive, to move forward and to get
people -- it's not the same old, same old. a lot of the ideas -- look, i was a ted kennedy liberal and, you know, there are a lot of populist liberal progressive economic ideas i believe in but a lot of the ideas on both sides are obsolete now. you need to take those principles but apply them to the issues that are for us right now economically and lead the american people there. >> joe, thanks. >> good to be with you. remember that outrageous convention government employees spending your tax dollars on themselves, face hotel suites and mismatched wine glasses? you didn't like that. you need to stick around for our next segment. soy buddy here is going to help me find it. here we go. woo who, woah, woah, woah. it's out there somewhere spreading the word about america's favorite potatoes: heart healthy idaho potatoes
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gsa's lavish las vegas convention, complete with photos of the gsa's regional commissioner that fancy bathtub on your dollar? well, after outrage was over the abuse of your tax dollars, omb issued stricter requirements for spending reports. makes sense, right? but listen to this. the cfo of hhs now says accurate spending reports won't help taxpayers. really? sarah westwood joins us. nice to see you. >> nice to be here. >> you wrote the article. why does hhs's cfo say that? >> well, what happened here is the hhs inspector general discovered millions of dollars in unreported conference funding, and in defense, pushing back on the inspector general's findings, the cfo ellen murray said the cost of. >> getting the right information? >> right would outweigh the
benefit to taxpayers. >> how does she figure that? how could it possibly be we don't want exact information? >> well, she cited difficulties in actually gathering the information and keeping track of it. and said, basically, you can either have an accurate report or a timely report, but you can't have both. >> okay. so why can't we at least change the time requirements a little bit? i think most taxpayers want to know whether or not they're partying on our dime again. >> right. it's essentially the bureaucratic answer of we can't get this data because we don't have it because these services are being provided by contractors. >> i read your story and it said that hhs had 140 conferences last year. that seems like a lot. i don't know why they're having all these conferences. go figure on that one. the ig, the inspector general, looked at only four of them. so out of 4 out of 140. and out of the four the ig looked at found hhs had failed to list $1.4 million. so is there a discrepancy in each of the four? >> yes. each conference had a discrepancy. and that 140 number that you just cited, those are just the
conferences that cost $100,000 or more. they actually have more conferences than that. and hhs actually spent $56 million on conferences alone in 2012. >> it's stunning, though. if you look at four conferences, if you sort of the inspector general looks at four of them and finds 100% mistakes, they have 136 more at over $100,000 a year a conference, and nobody is going to bother to look at those? >> right, exactly. you can only imagine that there is similar waste in all of the other conferences. and keep in mind that this was two years ago. so there was, you know, two years of additional conferences that we don't know where the money went. >> and the cfo at hhs doesn't see this as a problem? >> evidently not. it's just kind of evidence of the bureaucratic culture that leads to so much waste in our agencies today. >> but it's worse than bureaucratic culture. it's our money. la-di-da. why does she get to decide that? >> exactly. she cited the fact that there are already guidelines in place
to produce reports that have estimates. so she said that sufficient accurate reports aren't necessary. >> well, there is our government working for us. anyway, sarah, thank you. >> thank you. and coming up, after the release of american allen gross from cuba, i'm not trying to solve a mystery. i'll tell you what i mean, off the record next. but here is a hint. >> it has to do with sergeant andrew tahmooressi. at 10:00 p.m., senators marco rubio and ted cruz talking about cuba. tonight 10:00 p.m. on "hannity." people with type 2 diabetes
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you don't need to think about the energy that makes our lives possible. because we do. we're exxonmobil and powering the world responsibly is our job. because boiling an egg... isn't as simple as just boiling an egg. life takes energy. energy lives here. let's all go off the record for a minute. there is something that absolutely mystifies me. but before i tell you, let me say this. i am very happy alan gross is home. it's been five years too long. it was wrong that cuba held him in prison. so how did he get out? because president obama's administration held secret meetings in canada with cuban officials and cut a deal. then today president obama sent a government plane to pick him up. the obama administration packed that plane with members of congress. and as he landed at andrews air
force base, secretary of state john kerry was there to hug and meet mr. gross. but that's not all. president obama even placed a call to mr. gross on that plane as he flew back to the united states. and while i'm absolutely thrilled he got that treatment, i'm thrilled he is home where he belongs, i don't get it. i would love to know why didn't president obama help sergeant andrew tahmooressi when he was held in a mexican prison? i know a president can't help everybody. but a u.s. marine who got hit with an ied, did two tours for the u.s. in afghanistan and just made a wrong turn? not only did president obama not help, but he never called sergeant tahmooressi's mother, or even sergeant tahmooressi after he got home. maybe there is a reason, but i remain left in a big mystery. why didn't president obama help our marine? and that's my off the record comment tonight. thanks for being with us. we'll all see you again tomorrow night here at 7:00 p.m. eastern. and follow me on twitter at the handle @greta. and a reminder, go to greta wire.com. check out our complete interview
this is not an ordinary time and this is not an ordinary election. we are going to be choosing a president who will set policy for not just four or eight years, but some of the important decisions we have to make at home and around the world to energy and so much else. so there is a lot at stake. it's one of the most consequential elections we had. that's why i tried to put forth specific policies and plans. try to get it off of the personal and put it on to what it is on i want to do as president. that's why i hope people will check on that for themselves. so they can see that yes, i spent 30 years, actually a little more, working to help kids and families and i want to take that experience to the white house and do that every single day. >> mr. trump? >> well, i consider her statement about my children to be a very nice compliment. i don't know if it was meant to be a compliment, but i'm proud of my children. they have done a wonderful job and they have been wonderful kids. i consider that a compliment. i will say that about hillary.
because of that tape. >> he spoke for 40 minutes and 10 seconds and hillary clinton spoke for 39 minutes and five seconds. almost exactly the same amount of time. you didn't hear a robust emotional apology. from donald trump, did you? >> the inbox from republicans, that's one of the things they are worried about. that's powerful for hillary clinton to use him saying such vulgar things about women and he didn't say anything aggressively to apologize. he didn't do that behavior and he was pressed by anderson cooper and he said and talks in the tape about assaulting women. he said he didn't do those and he apologized. nowhere near as aggressive as many republicans wanted. he went into the personal attacks of bringing bill clinton
into it. i think it will be based on where do you stand from a partisan perspective. what donald trump is doing is getting more engaged and counter punching. throwing mike pence under the bus at a time when mike pence is standing by him is an interesting dynamic and he did say that yes, he took that giant deduction so he wouldn't pay federal income taxes. you can bet that's coming to a tv ad without a doubt. >> that is true. >> back to you. >> let's check in with the panel of experts. i said it was a wash, but feel free to disagree. >> at the beginning donald trump did the opposite of what i thought he should have done. he said he was embarrassed by this. the videotape. he said it was locker room talk. he did not apologize to the
women involved and he kept saying it's words and it wasn't anything more than that. period. end of sentence. so there was nothing more than anything he already said. he had already had the press conference about bill clinton. we knew that story and when asked are you different than at the young age of 59, he said i'm not proud of it and i have great respect for people, my family. hillary got him on that because she said you needed to apologize. for the rest of the debate. i think donald trump when he got over that was more disciplined, attacking hillary on the e-mail issue where she is vulnerable. i think in a sense he may have done enough. she seemed a little stilted at times and i think he may have done enough to stop the bleeding
and i'm not sure minds were changed. so much has occurred over the last 48 hours and the last week that people have to digest all of this including the debate tonight to see where they stand. i want to echo one thing that dana said was the mike pence remark. he is praising a dictator who was trying to interfere with our election, period. whom his running mate said we should stand up to and putin is propping up. that struck a note. >> here disagrees with him. >> i'm sure you watched the debate as we all did. we commented on the issues. we are not the same policy.
give it a broader look. much better counter puncher. i think he did poorly on that he was much more animated and much better counterpuncher i think that he did poorly on that question and he did poorly on the strange syria discussion where he got off on a rant there. which i think will leave a lot of questions and led to the mike pence question. the truth is hillary clinton has her struggles with the same issues she always struggles with, e-mails, speeches. i thought his counterpunch on
the lincoln comment was good. at the end of the day, i come to the same conclusion. i think she probably wins at some point and i don't think it changes much. >> just to set the stage, this has been one of the most disastrous periods for a presidential nominee in the history of the united states. from the first debate and before this debate. did he change that at all? >> i think he stopped the panic among most of the republicans there who were panicking. at least for now. i thought it was basically a draw which is basically a good thing for donald trump thinking that hillary clinton was going knock him out of this debate and have such a strong performance that there would be no question of where this race stood.
i don't think she had that great of a performance. he was odd pacing around and standing over here in some of those shots. i think there'll be a lot of material stylistically, for snl, she counterpunched well on the you've been there for 30 years what have you been doing and listed all of the things she had done. children's health care, expa expanding health care. veterans and secretary of state and 400 pieces of legislation. that was a good moment for her. she dropped one of the hillary clinton new information things and the alicia machado things. with she talked about trump gobbling up illegal steel from china. to build his buildings. i bet we'll hear more about that. >> i believe thaefs a news week story about how two out of three buildings that are using the steel that hurts american workers. what'd you think?
>> i think the night belonged to donald trump. we're not talking about the trump tape. he was able to pivot away and barely controlled at some point. it was a greatest hits real for the 14 million who voted for him. no hand shake at the out set. bill's infidelities and the e-mail erasure and islam and dishonesty and the media, you will hear a lot about how they reported the role of the moderators in this. i think those who voted for him got everything they wanted in their vote. did he grow? i can't see if there was any outreach. i looked carefully where i thought he could have expanded the base that he already has. not a knockout, but his night on points. >> where could he have expanded the base? obviously there was a muslim
american woman who spoke. there was an african american who wanted the country -- african american gentleman, james carter who wanted the country to be united would he be devoted to bring us together? where were the opportunities that he didn't take? >> he could have been more expansive on health care reform and rather than repeal and replace it with what and how and whom it would benefit. he could talk more about the reform he wants in the tax code aside from getting rid of interests for wealthy people. where he always falls down is that he goes on the attack without when a direct question is asked. what would you do about x, y or z, he deflects and goes on the attack that hillary has been here for 30 years and didn't do anything. the way you bring people into the tent is to tell them exactly what you would do for them. like taxes and health care, i
still do not think that we got much beyond obamacare is a disaster and why didn't she fix the tax code? and by the way, i think we might have heard him admit, i'm not sure about this, that he did use on the $918 million debt, that he actually used that not to pay taxes. >> he did say. he didn't say how long but he did say he use it. >> i think the trump teams thinks they are reaching out to suburban, white women and college-educated women when they talk about african-americans and hispanics, he hurts his case because of his record and the way he talks about african-americans and the way that he tends to say the african-americans and not just african-americans, which is a way of referring to folks in deeply odd. i think they are doing that but i don't think there's any success in growing that tent.
>> the real question is, they fear he doesn't have the right temperament or command, were they assured tonight or think of him differently as a result of this performance? i agree with michael, he was speaking to the base and i think the base is probably very happy. the base is just not big enough to win the election. >> the demographics of the country are such -- i'm sorry to hit this point again, george herbert walker bush and mitt romney got the same percentage of the white vote. 59%, what earned bush 136 electoral votes got mitt romney only 56. and there is the changing demographic of the country and that's why the missed opportunity was with the muslim woman and the african american man at the end. that was magnanimous. >> where he's doing poorly, he
needs to improve significantly, has to do with college educated white voters. he's even with college educated white men. >> health care and their families. >> there was a poll out today in your home state and your home state that had him leading among college educated voters, white voters by 20 points. this is a cohert that romney carried by 14% in 2012. that's a stunning -- >> tolerance, right? >> they think he's a bigot. >> right. that's why you hear hillary clinton, all of her ads, are about donald trump and what he said and those words, whether it's about women, whether it's about the birther controversy, those things turn off college-educated white voters. he can't undo that because he spent so much time branding himself in that way as this kind of unreconstructed alpha male and the tape only underscores that. >> let me say one thing about the tape. we're all talking about the debate and that's going to be our focus until 1:00 in the
morning. tomorrow morning we wake up in a world where the debate is over. we're not talking about it. we're talking about something else. i can't help but think the clinton campaign is going to make sure that that tape is everywhere from now until the election. >> it's about the image of the women from this point forward. four women and donald trump and that story's going to get told. >> college educated white women that we've been talking about. >> can i just make one other point in which is it's very clear they don't like each other very much. it was kind of an irritating debate in that sense because they were firing these jibes back and forth. and what was missing from it was any invocation of people, humanity. we're in a town hall meeting. the only person that was raised -- i think hillary clinton raised an individual and just as in the last debate she raised an individual to weap weaponize that story against donald trump but the day-to-day struggle. health care, nobody mentioned anybody who was actually struggling with health care.
i was surprised by that. >> let's go back to the tape. i want to play donald trump's response when the subject of this "access hollywood" tape, him talking very crudely about women, seeming to boast about grabbing women, assaulting women inappropriately. here was his response. >> you called what you said locker room banter. you described kissing women without their consent, grabbing their genitals. that is sexual assault. you bragged you sexually assaulted women. do you understand that? >> no, i didn't say that at all. i don't think you understood what was said. this was locker room talk. i'm not proud of it. i apologized to my family. i apologize to the american people. certainly i'm not proud of it. but this is locker room talk. you know, when we have a world where you have isis chopping off heads, where you have -- and frankly drowning people in steel cages, where you have wars and horrible, horrible sights all
over, where you have so many bad things happening, this is like medieval times. we haven't seen anything like this, the carnage all over the world, and they look and they see. can you imagine the people that are frankly doing so well against us with isis and they look at our country and they see what's going on. yes, i'm very embarrassed by it. i hate it. but it's locker room talk and it's one of those things. i will knock the hell out of isis. we're going to defeat isis. isis happened a number of years ago in a vacuum that was left -- >> so -- >> -- because of bad judgment. and i will tell you, i will take care of isis. >> so the basic response there, van, it was locker room talk but nothing compared to the horrors of isis and i'm going to stop isis. >> i just thought that was just horrible. he -- rather than apologizing he minimized. and that was something that everybody here agreed he should avoid doing. and basically, if the only thing you have to say about yourself is i'm not as bad as isis, i
mean, that's your defense, there's something wrong with that kind of response. [ cheers and applause ] the other thing is that you cannot underestimate the history that was made in our country. a line was crossed that i don't know has been crossed in my lifetime, maybe ever. he threatened to jail his opponent. >> right. >> he threatened to jail hillary clinton if he became president of the united states. that is something i think is a new low in american democracy. but i will say something maybe provocative. i think hillary won because donald trump kind of won. in other words, the worst possible outcome for hillary clinton could have been if she knocked him out. if she had knocked him out and forced him out of the race, you could have been in a situation where the republican party could rally, get somebody else in there. it was actually a good outcome for her. she did well enough. he did well enough. he stabilized himself. and he's going to bleed out. and she's going to be able to get across the finish line.
>> i'm not sure we watched the same debate because read the transcript. donald trump issued three more apologies. he's now up to issuing five. that's enough for most of the american people. i'm still waiting on the media to call on the apology for hillary clinton lying to the families of benghazi members when she told them their families were dead because of a video. i'm still waiting for a call for that apology. but i think something very big happened tonight that is lost upon most of us. what we saw tonight was someone speak for the people against the washington elite. there are people in this country, 2/3 of the country thinks we're in the wrong direction. they're tired of being promised hope and change, which is what president obama promised millennialed, promised the american people and it did not materialize. and you saw donald trump flawlessly expose the double standards of justice when he said -- when he said if someone, an american citizen had done 1/5 of what you had done with your e-mails their lives would have been destroyed. and there was an audible boo from the audience because people know hillary clinton lied when
she retorted with the fact that i didn't do anything wrong with my e-mails. the audience booed because there are two standards. the washington elite get one and we the american people get another. >> i think -- >> that was explosive. >> i think the audience had trump supporters and clinton supporters and we heard both sides. but let me go into -- let me play some of what you're talking about and specifically, van jones, it's the moment you that referred to where he said that were he in charge of the laws she would be in jail. >> i didn't think i'd say this but i'm going to say it. and i hate to say it. but if i win, i am going to instruct my attorney general to get a special prosecutor to look into your situation because there has never been so many lies, so much deception. there has never been anything like it. and we're going to have a special prosecutor. when i speak, i go out and speak, the people of this country are furious. in my opinion, the people that have been long-term workers at the fbi are furious.
there has never been anything like this where e-mails -- and you get a subpoena. you get a subpoena and after getting the subpoena you delete 33,000 e-mails. and then you acid wash them. or bleach them as you say. a very expensive process. so we're going to get a special prosecutor and we're going to look into it. because you know what? people have been -- their lives have been destroyed for doing 1/5 of what you've done. and it's a disgrace. and honestly, you ought to be ashamed of yourself. >> secretary clinton -- >> everything he just said is absolutely false but i'm not surpris surprised. i told people that it would be impossible to be fact-checking donald all the time. i'd never get to talk about anything i want to do and how we're going to really make lives better for people. so once again, go to hillaryclinton.com. we have literally trump. you can fact-check him in real-time. it's just awfully good that someone with the temperament of donald trump is not in charge of the law in our country. >> because you'd be in jail.
>> secretary clinton -- [ cheers ] >> so jeffrey, i heard you laughing. obviously that is a crowd pleaser for trump supporters. there's no question about that. he already has trump supporters. they already support him. is that the kind of line that exemplifies the kind of temperament that those who are undecided want to hear from him? >> yes. and i'll tell you why. this is about as kayleigh was saying, this is about the american people versus the political class in this country. media elites, politicians, et cetera, who as he said repeatedly there, talk, talk, talk, talk, talk and they never get anything done and they lie and they dissemble. and she would in fact, if she were not hillary clinton, she would be in huge trouble with these e-mails. and she would conceivably be going to jail. i mean, other people have gone to jail for these kind of problems. so what he's doing there is hitting the broad themes, one, the division between the
american people and the political class. two, her character. if you remember that famous quinnipiac poll from last year where they asked people to free-associate one-word descriptions of the candidates and for her it was dishonest and liar. >> you know that's kind of a bogus poll where they -- i mean, i think the biggest ones for trump were unflattering as well. but i take your point on the fact that she has very, very low trustworthy and honesty numbers -- >> so he was hitting this. >> okay, paul. >> the strategic context in which this debate occurs is the trump campaign in meltdown. a meltdown especially with women because of this really horrific tape where he brags about committing sexual assault. i don't think he put it to bed. you keep hearing stories that there's more tapes to come. the guy did 10 or 14 years on television and people keep saying we're going to go through these tapes. maybe they will. maybe they won't. but he certainly did nothing to put it behind him or even to inoculate against the stories to come. now, tonight's audience, i bet
you a nickel, would be much more female than male. first off more voters are female than male. but tonight we're up against qupt sunday night football." packers by the way 17-9 over the giants leading right now fourth quarter. the performance he put on, first being so bizarre about this sexual assault. in one of the answers he mentioned isis, immigration, and the economy. in one of the follow-ups he rambled on about michelle obama, sidney blumenthal, debbie wasserman schultz, bernie sanders, e-mails. that doesn't assuage any women voters. and then the style throughout the debate i kept hearing from a lot of women, they didn't like that -- the pacing, the stalking. >> yeah. >> the really kind of creepy behavior when he wasn't speaking. toward hillary. last time it was he got in trouble for interrupting. he did a fair amount of that again. he seemed to actually pick a lot of unwise fights with martha raddatz also. less so with anderson. this is not -- if i'm -- as a super pac guy, i work for the super pac that's opposing trump and is supporting hillary. i'm happy about this. if i were a trump strategist i'd
say boss, we've got a problem with women and you just made it worse. >> we're going to keep it there. everyone stay. we've still got two hours. wolf, let me throw it back to you. >> anderson -- anderson. jake, thanks very much. we've got an excellent moment right now to discuss something i'd never heard in any of these debates before between two presidential candidates. and dana, let's talk a little about this. one candidate says not only is he going to put forward a special prosecutor to investigate his rival but, and this is very significant, he's going to put her in jail if he's elected president of the united states. that's pretty extraordinary. >> okay. not to sound too corny, but what makes this country different from countries with dictators in africa or stalin or hitler or any of those countries with dictators and totalitarian leaders is that when they took over they put their opponents in jail. to hear one presidential candidate say, even if it was a
flip comment, which it was, you're going to be in jail to another presidential candidate on the debate stage in the united states of america, stunning. just stunning. >> certainly is. john king. >> most of his strategy on these issues was clearly designed, a, listening to his alt-right advisers. this was a breitbart strategy from the predebate and the debate. if he's bleeding across the electorate, if his goal priority one is to stop the bleeding on the right, then it may have succeeded in that. if you look at state by state, if you look at the battleground states, if you look at the demographic breakdowns in the states he is losing now heading into the last 30 days. remember, the timing of this is critical. in the last 30 days there are some people already voting. more people will start voting this week. even more will start voting after that. many in the most important battleground states. 30% of the american people last tight voted early. that will probably be a little higher this time. so the election is not on november 8th. it is now for many people in the
states that matter. and if donald trump needed to shore up his conservative base, his team is very happy. he was much modern gauged than he was tonight. he was much more aggressive. he did more counterpunching. he got to some of the issues that he believes are her weaknesses but to dana's point there is that going to win you the vote of a moderate woman in the philadelphia sbushds? i think not. is it going to get you raves on zruj and breitbart and the conservative media and the other network, we all know who i'm talking about, most likely. >> but at least he'll stop the bleeding among his own base. >> yes. i think that is a fair assessment that you can see in the mood -- and even the republicans who don't like trump. they think this is the worst possible outcome because they thought if he tanked tonight there would be pressure to get him out of the race. >> exactly. >> and now they're saying he did well enough to stay in. they don't think he can win and they think he hurts other senate and house candidates. but they think he did well enough to sustain himself without a doubt and i know that's what they think inside team trump. without a doubt they think they had a strong night. >> we're just hearing that eric holder apparently just said that trump's threat was like nixonian. not so much the jail threat but
the threat that if he becomes president he's going to instruct his attorney general to appoint a special prosecutor. it's -- first of all, i believe it's kind of a misunderstanding of what is even allowed and the way that the process works. but even so, putting that aside, just the threat is something that is going to -- this is something that's going to have ripple effects in the days to come. >> i also think another giant question tonight, again, people view these things through their partisan prism but we know that hillary clinton has barack obama, michelle obama, bernie sanders, elizabeth warren, joe biden, bill clinton. donald trump has mike pence. there are no other senior republicans out there. and he threw mike pence under the bus tonight. he threw his running mate under the bus tonight, who has stood by him -- mike pence did not defend donald trump on the specifics in the vice presidential debate. i was told that got under donald trump's skin a little bit. mike pence did stand by him this weekend. mike pence, a christian conservative whose wife i'm told was horrified when she heard that tape and who talked to her husband about it, mike pence did
stand by donald trump even though he did say the language is offensive. dysfunction in the campaign in the last 30 days is dangerous. >> he just did put out a tweet mike, pence -- >> that's what i was looking for. >> going ahead and endorsing -- "congrats to my running mate @realdonaldtrump on a big debate win. proud to stand with you as we make -- #make america great again." brianna keilar you've got a special guest in the spin room. >> i have hillary clinton's campaign chair john podesta. and i want to get your reaction to something first. donald trump called hillary clinton the devil but he also made a threat that if he were in charge of the laws of the country that he would jail her, he would imprison her. what is the campaign's reaction? >> well, it's one more over-the-top statement by donald trump. and fortunately, he's not in charge of the laws of the united states and never will be. but i think that maybe he was trying to appeal to his base. what we've seen over the last few weeks and particularly over the last few days are
republicans peeling off him in droves. so maybe all he's got left is his base. so to call her the devil is i think beneath a presidential candidate. it's one more reason yes he doesn't have the temperament to do the job of being president or being the commander in chief. >> the optics from the beginning of the debate were that we sea chelsea clinton not there to shake the hands of melania trump and her kids as we saw during the first debate. and then hillary clinton did not shake hands with donald trump at the beginning of the debate. that's a very clear signal she was trying to send. >> well, look, i think he came in here sort of pulling this stunt that he did at the beginning of this and was on the attack from the beginning. again, i think maybe he was just trying to stabilize his own base of voters even as that's shrinking. but i think that given what we saw, what we saw on the
videotape, what we're seeing now in the howard stern tapes, his -- >> she's trying to signal something. she's trying to signal that she -- >> that his behavior is -- doesn't really deserve the respect of a handshake at the beginning. she did shake his hand at the end. but i think that, you know, he came in tonight and even walked back whatever bit of an apology he gave for the "access hollywood" tape that every american now has probably seen over and over again. >> i know that one of the strategies coming into this was thinking that after that tape came out there were people who were newly open to hillary clinton. but the assessment seems to be that she really just rallied the base and whether or not she has really expanded it seems that she and donald trump just rallied their base. what do you say to that? >> i think she came in trying to answer the specific questions. this was supposed to be i think in my mind a town hall where voters got to ask specific
questions. the moderators asked a lot of the questions tonight. but the voters did get to ask questions. and i think she wanted to talk about the specific ideas, the specific plans, what she's been able to do in a bipartisan way when she was first lady, when she was senator, the children's health insurance program, the other program she talked about. but most importantly what she wanted to do to build an economy that was going to work for everyone, not just those at the top. so if n. doing that i think what she wanted to try to accomplish was to say i want to be a president for everyone and i want to have you listen to me with a positive message, an optimistic view of what america can be. in contrast i think he was dark and divisive again. >> john podesta with the clinton campaign. thank you so much. back to you guys. >> all right. thanks very much, brianna keilar. let's play a clip. this is donald trump speaking about the former president of the united states, bill clinton. >> i told you, that was locker
room talk. i'm not proud of it. i am a person who has great respect for people, for my family, for the people of this country. and certainly i'm not proud of it. but that was something that happened if you look at bill clinton, far worse. mine are words and his was action. his was what he's done to women. there's never been anybody in the history of politics in this nation that's been so abusive to women. so you can say any way you want to say it, but bill clinton was abusive to women. hillary clinton attacked those same women. and attacked them viciously. four of them are here tonight. one of the women, who is a wonderful woman, at 12 years old was raped at 12. her client, she represented, got him off. and she's seen laughing on two separate occasions, laughing at the girl who was raped. kathy shelton, that young woman, is here with us tonight.
so don't tell me about words. absolutely i apologize for those words. but it is things that people say. but what president clinton did, he was impeached. he lost his license to practice law. he had to pay an $850,000 fine to one of the women, paula jones, who's also here tonight. and i will tell you that when hillary brings up a point like that and she talks about words that i said 11 years ago i think it's disgraceful and i think she should be ashamed of herself if you want to know the truth. >> he gets to run his campaign any way he chooses. he gets it decide what he wants to talk about. instead of answering people's questions, talking about our agenda, laying out the plans that we have that we think can make a better life and a better country, that's his choice.
when i hear something like that, i am reminded of what my friend michelle obama advised us all. when they go low, you go high. [ cheers and applause ] >> she got some applause for that line but i didn't hear a robust vote of confidence, a defense of her husband in that response, because he really went after bill clinton. >> hillary clinton didn't mention bill clinton's behavior or actions at all. she didn't defend her actions at all. she just went after more or less donald trump essentially saying you're trying to go back and we're talking about you here. a couple of points on that. donald trump clearly tried to gin up support on the r50i9d right with his base. if you talk to conservatives, especially the all the rooilt conservative media they think these issues have been ignored or forgotten. you and i covered the white house at the time. the paula jones case, kathleen willey case, monica lewinsky impeachment that dominated our lives. i had color in my hair when that started. that was several years of our lives. they think we should still be talking about this later. and trump was trying to connect hillary clinton to that.
will that be a winning strategy in the general election? we'll see how it plays out. but clearly donald trump came here tonight saying when i'm asked about me i'm going to deflect to bill clinton. i do think it helped him rally conservatives. i also know from e-mail conversations with clinton campaign people anderson cooper said this is sexual assault. and what donald trump -- he said he didn't do it. he said he was just talking about it. he did say tonight which he did not say in that weekend night video-e didn't address whether or not it actually happened. he just said he was sorry. donald trump did say he never did those things. so he was bragging about sexually assaulting women. and he said no, it's locker room talk. the clinton people -- that's going to be in an ad probably by the time we get to the end of this week. with anderson cooper asking a direct question and donald trump saying it's locker room talk. it's not locker room talk. it is not locker room talk to whether you're fantasizing about it speculating about it or talking about it of groping people, sexually assaulting people. that's a crime. >> but i will just say, and probably getting similar notes from republicans, i just got one from a top republican who's very
skittish about donald trump saying that he did okay acknowledging the bar -- this is among republicans. that the bar is pretty low right now for him to kind of bring some of them back into the fold but that in the words of this republican he moved the conversation beyond the caught on tape hot mike situation. on the flip side of that i've been hearing from some democrats who think that hillary clinton did well but wondering why didn't she put it away, wondering what could she have done differently to -- after the weekend that donald trump just had to just end it. just completely end his candidacy. and that she possibly could have with this debate but didn't. >> but you think that's in part the result of an hour before the debate he invites these women -- >> no. >> -- to come here not only to do a little joint photo opportunity with him but then to sit in the front row -- >> you mean whether she was rattled? >> yeah. >> i mean, i don't know. i didn't get the sense that she
really changed her strategy much at all. that she was going to do what she was going to do. she clearly was ready for bill clinton's name to come up in the context of these women or in any other context. and he she made the decision she wasn't going to go there. she was going to instead hit all the demographics that she thinks that donald trump has offended, whether it's the disabled or the hispanics or muslims and so forth and she was just going to pretend like the bill clinton question didn't happen. >> she's trying to keep what she's got. she'd she's ahead right now. she's head in the moltum in the last ten days and we don't know about the weekend. we don't know how that will be processed by voters or this debate which they'll be processing at the same time. what they learned over the weekend about donald 2ru78. and now this debate. hillary clinton came saying if i protect what i have i win the election. and she was -- it was clear she was hoping that donald trump hurt himself with his own words and donald trump turned in a much stronger performance in terms of punching, counterpunching and getting to the issues more favorable to him. a much better job tonight than in the first debate no doubt.
>> our exclusive cnn/orc poll results momentarily. who won this debate? in the meantime let's go back to jake. >> thanks so much. appreciate it, wolf. i'm back with our panel. something i want to throw out to everyone here. i'll start with this side and work over. the alicia machado moment was a throwaway line at the end of the last debate and it became a huge story because of how the clinton campaign went with it and because of donald trump's reaction. one thing i'm wondering if donald trump introduced at this night's debate that we just talked about over here that might become a bigger thing for the clinton campaign and i think we can agree they're much more effective at the attacks and the commercials and with surrogates, et cetera. that is with donald trump saying if he gets elected president he's going to ask his attorney general to appoint a special prosecutor to put hillary clinton in jail. >> yeah. >> this is the kind of thing they do in countries not like the united states, where you lock up and jail your political opponents. this feeds into something -- a criticism we've heard actually
more from conservative critics of donald trump than liberal critics of donald trump. can you imagine this man with his dem pramt and his drive for vengeance having instruments of government at his hands, the irs, et cetera. i wonder if that was a much bigger gaffe than we are making it out to be. >> i think it is. i think it's a huge gaffe. republicans talk about the imperial presidency and how barack obama has abused his executive powers. imagine somebody being asked to serve as attorney general if you knew that a president was going to direct prosecutions. i'm not a lawyer. but i get that. and it is as dana was pointing out nixonian to a great degree. and i think that it is also un-american to a great degree. and i think that is something the clinton campaign can use and can use very fevtly. also to me when he said i'd put her in jail.
remember during the convention -- >> lock her up. >> lock her up, lock her up. and he kind of tried to quiet it a little at the convention because he was in presidential mode. now this was a primary campaign debate to me tonight and what he was doing was rallying the base by saying lock her up effectively, which he did also, calling her a liar multiple times and the devil. multiple times. and saying he'd put her in jail. >> and he said she had hate in her heart. >> i don't think that's going to play very well with voters. i think what happened was he said i'm throwing out the playbook and i'm going with, as you point out, i'm going with the material that's worked for me when i go out there and speak to these rallies. this line of prosecuting hillary clinton is something he's used in his rallies. this is not a new idea. he just raised it to the level of a debate point here. and my guess is it will resonate well with his base and it will antagonize the people he needs
to grow who worry about the things you point out, who worry about his temperament, worry about whether he would handle the job of president in a responsible way. so you know, i think he galvanized the base again, perhaps at the expense of expanding it. >> it's another iteration of her argument, which is in an ad, about having him near the nuclear codes. a man you can bait with a tweet shouldn't be near the nuclear codes. and he also probably shouldn't have the instruments of the military, of the justice department. so yeah, i think that'll certainly end up in an ad. and again, it's going to turn off those moderate swing voters who want a steady person, who want somebody who is steady in terms of their temperament, in terms of their manner, in terms of their speech and approach to issues. so i think this -- it wasn't a plant by hillary clinton in any way. >> i don't think it's going to
end up in an ad because this isn't the issue -- >> she doesn't want to -- >> i don't think alleged criminality -- >> those who watched it -- i think it was cringeworthy for a lot of folks who watched it. >> jake, the two of us have ties to the philly suburbs. i still live there. you have family who are there. i've waited, we're now a month out from the election, less if you start and think that people are already voting and i've been waiting and waiting and waiting for the pivot or the outreach to the folks who come in from our area because if we had a nickel for every time they get invoked, even on "snl," we'd be wealthy individuals. it's never going to happen. i mean, this is the donald trump who got this far. i think there potentially is an emperor has no clothes thing going on around him where perhaps the people who could say to him you need to pivot won't do so for whatever reason. but this is what got him thus far and this is how he's going to ride it out. and i think that he feeds on the reaction that he gets from that base which is what keeps him
hitting -- >> but michael, maybe he felt like he took the advice of the people who were telling him to pivot and be more muted in the last debate and it didn't turn out well for him. >> could be. >> so he decided well, the hell with that, i'm going to throw all that out and go back to the stuff i know works. >> and just to elaborate, it's not -- michael and i are biased because we're from philadelphia but it's not just the philly burbs we're talking about, we're talking about white college educated voters, the people in the i-4 corridor in the middle of florida, we're talking about the people in northern virginia, in the suburbs of denver. these are voters that mitt romney did well with, that john mccain did well with. still not well enough to win -- >> harrisburg, where thousands show up for donald trump. >> and donald trump is underperforming with them. and i know that this -- i'm sure he will win every online poll. i know that the breitbart crowd ate this up. my question is did he win over any suburban households in philadelphia? >> sure. i think he can. and let me use the issue here that you were just talking about
to illustrate. talking about jailing the opponent and how this is -- dictators and all this kind of stuff. there is another side to this. and on a side that independent voters, the kind of folks you were talking about are very concerned about, and that is the politicization of the department of justice where you have an attorney general, eric holder, who said in that case of the black panthers group there that were at the polls in philadelphia and they were armed and they were in uniform. he said he wasn't going to do it because these are my people. >> again, i'm sure he's winning fox news voters. that's not my point. >> when you talk about -- >> he said he would -- >> some fact checker is -- the fact check machine is going tilt right now. >> you're speaking against the politicization of the justice department under the obama administration. his answer was i'll tell my attorney general to appoint a special prosecutor to lock her up. >> that's not what he said. he said i will appoint a special prosecutor to look into it.
>> yes. and then later in the same exchange he said if he were in charge of the government she'd be in jail. >> as a response. i know the media doesn't get satire and humor but that was a humorous line -- >> we do. we get satire. >> you compare him to hitler and stalin locking people up when he said -- >> i don't think anybody mentioned hitler or stalin. but let's play it. let's play the exchange. >> i didn't think i'd say this but i'm going to say it. and i hate to say it. but if i win i am going to instruct my attorney general to get a special prosecutor to look into your situation because there has never been so many lies, so much deception. there has never been anything like it. and we're going to have a special prosecutor. when i speak, i go out and speak, the people of this country are furious. in my opinion, the people that have been long-term workers at the fbi are furious. there has never been anything like this where e-mails -- and
you get a subpoena. you get a subpoena, and after getting the subpoena you delete 33,000 e-mails. and then you acid wash them or bleach them, as you would say. a very expensive process. so we're going to get a special prosecutor and we're going to look into it because you know what? people have been -- their lives have been destroyed for doing 1/5 of what you've done. and it's a disgrace. and honestly, you ought to be ashamed of yourself. >> secretary clinton -- >> everything he just said is absolutely false but i'm not surprised. >> oh, really? >> i told people that it would be impossible to be fact-checking donald all the time. i'd never get to talk about anything i want to do and how we're going to really make lives better for people. so once again, go to hillaryclinton.com. we have literally trump, you can fact-check him in real time. it's just awfully good that someone with the temperament of donald trump is not in charge of the law in our country. >> because you'd be in jail.
>> secretary clinton. >> yeah. humor right there. >> you're saying he wasn't being serious? >> i'm saying he used that line. it was humor to illustrate the point. and the point is as with the e-mails -- i mean, how many -- >> so he thought she was innocent of anything wrong with e-mails? >> how many stories have we seen, jake, in the last two weeks about destruction of computers, special privileges, the president -- president clinton gets on the plane -- >> i love -- you guys know i love jeffrey lord. i do. i'm not joking. >> here we go. >> and i greatly appreciate -- >> this is a clearing of the throat. >> this is it. >> jake, you may want to get out of the way. >> but the idea that you are threatening to prosecute your opponent is as best i can tell unprecedented in american history. and i will say this. you don't appoint a prosecutor to investigate. you appoint a prosecutor to lay the groundwork to put somebody in jail. and here's the problem i have with the whole thing. >> but -- >> hold on a second. here's the problem i have with the whole thing. look, we do have a criminal
justice system that is unfair, that is biased, but when people like black lives matter point this out people like yourself say they're race baiting, they're racist, and turn a deaf ear. so you can't have it both ways. you can't pretend to care about a broken criminal justice system only when donald trump is scoring political points about hillary clinton and then turn your deaf ear to the cries of actual people who are suffering. and there was a big missed opportunity tonight. when that muslim woman stepped forward, donald trump could have very easily said to her, i understand what you're going through. >> and he did. >> and he didn't. >> he did. >> let me finish. >> we'll get the tape. >> we'll get the tape. >> he very briefly said one thing. and then he basically gave an islamophobic answer to a question about islamophobia. why do i say that? because he said you the muslims
have to report on the things that are going on. as if only the muslims have to do this. as if all of the mass shootings are done by muslims. you can say you want everyone in the country you see something say something. that's an american position. he says the muslims have a special responsibility. that's an islamophobic response. and he missed opportunity after opportunity to reach out. but don't play games with criminal justice with me. >> so kayleigh, let me ask you. you maintain -- and tell me what you think. that the first part, special prosecutor, serious, but then the other thing about because you'd be in jail that was a joke. >> i do. and the audience laughed. so i think they clearly got the humor. but you know, to van's point about criminal justice and double standards and caring about citizens, you know who i care a lot about? petty officer christian saucier, who's sitting in a jail right now sentenced to one year in prison for taking eight photographs on a submarine to show his family and bringing back classified information home for him. christian saucier's in jail. hillary clinton did the same thing.
she's out free because the fbi, to jeffrey's point, is politicized. >> they're friends. >> four of the people sitting at this table have worked in the white house. the white house must maintain an arm's length relationship from the prosecutorial power of the justice department. and it always has. except in the nixon administration where nixon did try to politicize both the fbi and the cia. it was one of the darkest moments of our history. what trump has suggested is straight out of the dictator's handbook. and it came during the same debate when he publicly broke with his running mate who dared to question vladimir putin. now, ken vogel of politico points out, but i remember this from my own work, that in ukraine a putin puppet, viktor yanukovych, did the same thing. he became president. he was a putin puppet. he locked up his predecessor, yulia tymoshenko. this guy is laying the groundwork for exactly -- he wants to crack down on the first amendment against journalists. in every rally he attacks journalists. now he wants to lock up his opponent just like putin's
buddy. and even his running mate takes second fiddle to his pal putin -- >> hold that thought. coming up who won tonight's debate? what do voters think? we'll reveal the first results of our instant poll of debate watchers. and we'll get the first reaction from our focus group of undecided voters in the key battleground state of ohio. stay with us. "yeah mom, the new kitchen's great. hey! if you want somethig to cook faster,
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we're here in the spin room getting reaction from all the candidates' -- both the candidates' surrogates. lots of reaction coming in. we're also standing by for the exclusive results of our cnn/orc poll of voters in ohio. we're going to get that momentarily. stand by for that. first official -- unofficial but poll results. scientific poll that we've got, you're going to get those results momentarily. david chalian will be with us for that. the big question of the night, what did undecided voters think about donald trump's answer to the question about the leaked tape? pamela brown watched the debate with a group of these voters. we're about to show you what they thought. while you watch look at the bottom of your screen. if the lines go up, voters liked the answer. if the lines go down, they didn't like the answer. men's responses are in green, women in yellow. here's donald trump's response. >> just for the record, though, are you saying that what you
said on that bus 11 years ago, that you did not actually kiss women without consent or grope women without consent? >> i have great respect for women. nobody has more respect for women than i do. >> for the record you're saying you didn't do those things? >> you hear these things are said and i was embarrassed by it but i have tremendous respect for women. >> have you ever done those things? >> and women have respect for me. and i will tell you -- no, i have not. and i will tell you that i'm going to make our country safe. >> pamela, these voters didn't seem to like his answer. >> yeah, as you saw the very strong reactions from these 29 undecided voters from the ohio state university. so let's get straight to them to see what their reaction was when donald trump defended himself against that "access hollywood" video. what did you think, barb, when you heard what he had to say? >> i find it hard to believe whatever he says. he just doesn't seem to be a
truthful person. >> reporter: and you have two sons and you had sort of a visceral reaction to what he said in defense of that video and what he was saying in that video. what did you think? >> well, i just feel that everyone has placed all of the accent upon young women and how we should protect them. we are equal citizens. i would hope that my sons would not talk like he did and i have tried to raise them not to act that way. >> reporter: it's interesting, because he reiterated in his defense that this is locker room banter, that this is just words. what do you think, larry? did that resonate with you? >> no. because that's not locker room talk. and for a 59-year-old man to claim that that's locker room talk i think is offensive to the young men who are out playing sports and doing the right thing. to me, it's pure and simple, sexual assault. and he should be held accountable for his thinking and actions of sexual assault.
>> so to you that is not just locker room banter? >> that's not. not at 59 years old, especially. i don't know any 59-year-olds who are in locker rooms. >> i just want to get quickly a show of hands. who thought that donald trump did enough to put that controversy surrounding the tape behind him? raise your hand if you think he did enough tonight in defense. okay. and there were some positive reactions when hillary clinton actually spoke after donald trump defended himself against that video. let's take a listen to what she had to say during the debate. >> this is who donald trump is and the question for us, the question our country must answer is that this is not who we are. that's why, to go back to your question, i want to send a message. we all should. to every boy and girl and indeed to the entire world that america already is great but we are great because we are good.
>> so i want to ask you, what was it about hillary clinton's argument that resonated with you following donald trump's defense of the video? >> she stated that america is already great and i tend to agree with that. though we are slow in progressing in a number of areas, we are progressing and we need to continue the momentum. >> what about you? what did you think about hillary clinton's argument, the way that she reacted, particularly when he brought up bill clinton's past and the allegations against him? what did you think? >> i think that she tried to clarify that they weren't the same, that what donald trump had done was -- she had talked about her children and other people's children and daughters and that it just -- it was uncalled for and he should not have done it and didn't feel that his apology was sincere. >> and it's interesting because she largely sort of stayed away from going there. do you think that was a smart move? raise your hand if you think
that was a smart move. and raise your hand if you think it was a smart move for donald trump to bring that up, if that was fair game. why do you think that? >> well, i think, you know, if everything is out on the table, then everything is fair game. is it apples to apples, absolutely not. but i don't think -- in these debates it just doesn't ever seem like anything's off the table. >> i'm going to get a show of hands now. the big question, who do you think won this debate? hillary clinton. raise your hand if you think hillary clinton won tonight's debate. okay. raise your hand if you think donald trump won this debate. okay. so clearly there are some of you who thought this was a draw. raise your hand if you think tonight's debate was a draw. all right. there you go. there you have it, wolf. mixed response. coming up, we're going to talk about what they thought and who they are going to vote for, these undecided voters, if any of them cemented their vote after tonight's debate. you won't want to miss that. >> hillary clinton is now speaking to reporters aboard her aircraft. i want to listen in.
>> go back and lean up against my stool but he was very present. >> we're going to take off. then we're going to bring you - you --. >> [ inaudible question ]. >> nothing surprises me about him really, dan. i was surprised by the absolute avalanche of falsehoods. i mean, i really find it almost unimaginable that someone can stand and just tell, you know, a falsehood after falsehood. you all remember politifact said he was the most untruthful candidate they'd ever evaluated. and we sort of did the numbers. i think they said he was like 70% untruthful. and so i think he exceeded that percentage tonight. >> how did president clinton -- >> anyway, thank you, guys. >> we'll come back in a few minutes.
>> there she is. hillary clinton going to the back of her plane to speak to reporters, making some tough statements once again against donald trump. we have the results now of our instant poll. we've been waiting for this. david chalian, our political director. give us the results. >> wolf, as you know, we did a pofl debate watchers. this is not a national poll of all voters. this is a poll of debate watchers and just like we saw in the first debate and the vice presidential debate, the audience skews a little more democratic. debate watchers are a little more democratic than we would see in a national poll overall. having said that, who won the debate? according to the debate watchers we polled, hillary clinton won the debate. 57% to 34% for donald trump. that's not as big of a victory as she got in our poll in the first debate but it is a clear victory here. but talk about besting expectations. take a look at this. did donald trump best expectations, did he do better
than you thought he would do? 63% of debate watchers said donald trump did better than they expected. only 21% say that he did worse and 15% say he did the same as they expected. how about hillary clinton's expectation game? take a look at these numbers. did hillary clinton do better or worse than you expected? 39% say she did better. 26% said she did worse and 34% said she did about the same. hillary clinton the winner in this poll of who won the debate. but donald trump significantly overperforming expectations. >> but the polls show that she did win this debate. let's get immediate reaction from kellyanne conway, the trump campaign manager who is with us. what's your reaction to that? >> my reaction is that i'm glad that people think that 60% according to your online poll believe that hillary clinton either did worse or the same as they expected. it showed she wasn't very well prepared for tonight's debate. and that really surprises me. because if she's anything she's, you know, very wonky. she's very pedantic, lawyerly in her responses.
i would have thought she'd be better prepared for this debate. ail heard all week, wolf, is that the town hall format is really great for her. whereas we know it's our sweet spot because donald trump is out there every single day engaging with voters. he loves that. he's at the rallies. he's at the smaller forum round tables. he's at his own town halls. he clearly won the debate tonight why? because if you watched anybody's shows this whole weekend we've just been left for dead, it's all over, why even show up, will there be a debate, are people jumping ship. he came here to play tonight and he came here to take the case right to hillary clinton and to show americans this race is still what it's always been. past versus future. politician versus successful businessman. washington insider versus disrupter. and he made that case very clearly. he did not back down. >> kellyanne, i want to ask you about what he said at the beginning of the debate. more than one time he referred once again to what he said on that tape as locker room talk. you're his campaign manager, the only woman at the head of that campaign. what did you think when you saw
and you heard that? truthfully, what was your reaction? >> my initial reaction was very close to what melania trump said. i was offended. and i think that language is offensive and disgusting. and i'm also very happy that he apologized. i'm glad that he holds himself -- excuse me. accountable. because i look at the full measure of people, what they've said, what they've done, dana, and how they deal with adversity that comes to him -- to them. and donald trump is absolutely correct. these are words compared to actions. and he made that very clear tonight that hillary clinton blaming and shaming the women in her husband's life, that is not somebody who's standing up for women. >> but the term "locker room talk." you had the highest-ranking woman in congress, republican woman, kathy mcmorris rogers, blowing that off and saying no, no, no, this is suggesting sexual assault and -- >> that's a very unfortunate phrase and people should stop using it. >> why? >> because i know him better. and i know better. >> but it's what he said.
>> he did not say the word sexual -- >> no. it's what he implied -- >> you want to talk about sexual assault, right here in the hall -- i know cnn doesn't want into the view them for whatever reason. you give miss universe a big platform. but we have in the hall tonight juanita broaddrick and paula jones and kathy shelton the 12-year-old rape victim that two years before the rape shield laws were implemented in arkansas hillary clinton defending her 42-year-old rapist successfully defending him getting him a plea bargain. she was willing to blame and shame that victim as well who was 12 years old. we can talk about sexual assault but let's have a full conversation about it. this is what i know. i have to assess people based on what i see in totem. this is a man i've been alone with many times who's never been anything but gracious and a gentleman and elevated me to the top level of his campaign the way he's elevated women in the trump organization for decades. because he respects women. >> let me just say that cnn at the time many, many years ago did fully litigate -- these two gentlemen were actually covering
the clinton white house fully, talk about and report on their stories at the time. because it is very old. and i just -- because you brought it up i just have to say, kellyanne -- >> how she treated them. >> no, no. it was real time. i just have to say because you brought it up that your boss himself back in 1998 told neil cavuto about these victims. i don't necessarily agree with his victims, talking about bill clinton. "his victims are terrible. he," meaning bill clinton, "is the real victim himself. he put himself in that position." and he talked about how unattractive these people are. >> so in 1998 we're not going to talk about paula jones because it's too old but we'll talk did -- >> what i'm saying is at that time he was defending bill clinton and going after these guys and now he's changed -- >> he's gotten to know them. we took note of hillary clinton's comment on the campaign trail and actually she said all sexual assault victims deserve to be heard and believed. these are her words. she's running for president now. she wants to be the president of all people. i assume except for the ones she
thinks are deplorable and airredeemable which is tens of millions. but in fairness i know we want to talk about this because we certainly don't want to talk about tonight's campaign performance. when hillary clinton just on her plane lying that donald trump said falsehood after falsehood. i was watching the debate in real time. politifact, the fact checker said he was right about her wanting to have a 550% increase in sir refugees -- >> let me ask you another question about the debate. donald trump said he had not spoken to his vice presidential running mate mike pence about syria and he disagreed with him. we're 30 days from the american people voting. mike pence will be out there campaigning tomorrow. is the message to the american people at mike pence rallies don't believe what he says because -- >> not at all. they were talking about two different things. i just talked to governor pence not ten minutes ago. he says hello. he and mr. trump had also talked about what a great debate we've had between tuesday night the vice presidential debate and tonight obviously donald trump winning here. in a vice presidential debate the conversation was about
humanitarian crisis. and that's what governor pence was referring to. and mr. trump said -- >> and he said the united states might have to use force. governor pence the united states might -- >> he might have to. >> and donald trump said tonight i disagree with that. and i haven't spoken with him. >> about that particular aspect of it since the debate. that is true p they've spoken many times this week. but let me be clear. on tv on your network today cnn's jake tapper took tim kaine to account because he couldn't answer a simple question about what hillary clinton said in the e-mails about having open borders. we know she's for open borders but the only way we know it now is because we saw it in her e-mails -- >> we did hear something extraordinary from donald trump today. he said if he's elected president he will ask the justice department to name a special prosecutor to go after hillary clinton. and then he went one step further and said he would arrest her and lock her up -- he would put her in jail. in all of the years, i don't remember a time in american history when one candidate has said of the other candidate if
he wins the other candidate's going to jail. >> donald trump is channeling the frustration of a lot of americans he hears from, wolf. so many americans say i can't believe that people have been -- their lives have been ruined, their livelihood gone, they face jail time for doing far less than hillary clinton did hear and yet she was completely exonerated for deleting 33,000 e-mails, not turning over another 17,000. that's 50,000 right there. setting up the private server to begin with. saying that there's no classified information. fbi director comey said that's not true. i only had one device. she had many. they took a hammer to them. the story goes on and on. and it's an active investigation. in other words, just less than two weeks ago -- >> did ybut you understand the enormity of that statement. he's going to lock up his opponent if he wins. >> well, no, what he said is he wants to appoint a special prosecutor because he feels -- and he channels nearly public will here he hears all the time if we don't hear about the disasters in obama care and her failure with the russian reset
and benghazi we're always hearing about the e-mails. and he is telling -- he told america tonight what america has told him. the frustration that there's a different set of rules for this woman as goes for e-mails. and she -- >> i you've got to run. i'm going to put up on the screen the results of our poll. you're a professional pollster. you'll see the results. these are people who actually watched the debate and millions and millions of americans watched. who won the debate? 57% said hillary clinton won the debate. 34% said donald trump won the debate. that's the results of our cnn/orc poll. kellyanne, thanks very much for joining us. >> i watched a different debate, but thank you. >> coming up we're going to have a reality check on some of the most contentious statements we heard from the candidates tonight. and we'll reveal more results from our own poll of watchers. what was their response to trump's attempts to explain his vulgar comments caught on tape? stay with us.
welcome back. we're here in the spin room following this historic debate. we've got a reality check, some fact checking with tom foreman and phil mattingly. tom foreman, first to you. what have you found out? >> wolf, attacks and insults have characterized this campaign for months now. and tonight as well. with hillary clinton saying donald trump has gone after women again and again. >> but it's not only women and it's not only this video that raises questions about his fitness to be our president. because he has also targeted immigrants, african-americans, latinos, people with disabilities, p.o.w.s, muslims, and so many others. >> that is really an enormous list of people up there. could this possibly be true? well, if you go all wait back to when he announced his candidacy, yeah, at some time or another he's either said or done something to disparage people on every one of these lists.
this was actually a very easy one to check. and her claim is true. wolf? >> thank you, tom. phil mattingly, you've been doing a reality check as well. >> yeah, that's right. it wasn't just hillary clinton that was taking some swings tonight. donald trump rolling off a litany of attacks against bill and hillary clinton. included this one. that bill clinton lost his law license. >> but what president clinton did, he was impeached. he lost his license to practice law. >> so here's the claim, that bill clinton lost his law license. quite simply was no longer allowed to practice law. so here are the facts. in the wake of revelations that bill clinton lied during the monica lewinsky investigation the arkansas supreme court brought a disbarment lawsuit against clinton. now, clinton agreed as part of the resolution to that lawsuit the day before leaving office to a five-year suspension of his arkansas law license as part of that plea deal to put an end to the lewinsky investigation.
so where does that leave us? the verdict. it's true. on donald trump's claim that bill clinton lost his law license for five years. it's accurate. for this and all of tonight's reality checks go to cnn.com/realitycheck. wolf? >> cnn's coverage of the second presidential debate continues right after this.
a high one. donald trump's campaign staggered after the video where the bragged he could grab a woman's genitals. then he went to attack mode and hillary clinton responded. >> look, it's just not true. >> you didn't delete them? >> personal e-mails. not official. we turned over 35,000. >> what about the other 50,000? >> please allow her to respond. she didn't talk while you talked. >> that's true. i'll try not to in this debate because i'd like to get to the questions that the people have brought here tonight to talk to us about. >> and get off this question. >> okay, donald, i know you're into big diversion tonight. anything to avoid talking about your campaign and the way it is exploding and the way republicans are leaving you. >> the news this morning,
so there's no training behind this. there's no standard attack in any of this. so, actually, we can see it going any way. but i think the i think the longer it goes on without violence the more likely there won't be any. welcome back, everybody. i'm john vause at the cnn center. >> i'm natalie allen. thank you for joining us. we've been here several hours with this breaking news out of australia. and we will continue to bring you the latest now. >> and we'd like to welcome our viewers in the united states and all around the world. we'd like to give you the update now. a gunman is still holding an unknown number of people at a lindt coffee shop in sydney's main business district. sky news australia reports that the hostage taker, seen here, is calling himself the brother. he has forced hostages to speak with three media outlets over the phone. he apparently has two demands.
he wants an isis flag. he also wants a conversation with australia's prime minister. >> we also have video of five hostages who managed to get out. we still don't know how they did it. but they got out. that was the first one we saw in the blue jacket. then the man in the white shirt. and then there was one more that burst out of another door, a door that police aren't standing behind. that was about four hours ago. when that happened. and then two women, two workers ran out a short time later still wearing their aprons from the coffee shop. that woman. and then right behind her this one. all five hostages reportedly escaped from the cafe. they were not released. that is the information that we have at least. and they are now of course speaking to police. one was being observed at a hospital. it has been now more than ten hours since the gunman walked into that cafe. >> a flag with an islamic phrase was held up to the cafe's
window. later hostages were forced to stand at that window with their hands up against it. australia's prime minister has spoken about the hostage taker. >> we don't yet know the motivation of the perpetrator. we don't know whether this is politically motivated. although obviously there are some indications that it could be. we have to appreciate that even in a society such as ours there are people who would wish to do us harm. >> well, our anna coren has been with us pretty much from the start of this, and she's now live there in sydney, and you've been describing a lot of things going on today, anna. but the good news is that you haven't had to report on anyone getting hurt. and as far as you know, is the situation ongoing, hostages still inside that cafe and no one at this point hurt?
>> reporter: yeah, that's right, natalie. certainly according to the deputy police commissioner. she wants this resolved peacefully. the siege now into its ninth hour. we know that the hostage taker, who is armed, has a number of hostages. we still don't have specifics. it's rather frustrating. i have to admit that we don't have the details that we would hope. but certainly police remajor extremely tight-lipped. they say they have the situation under control, that they are talking to the gunman, who is armed. we don't know if he just has a gun or if he has explosives or bombs. but certainly the cbd, the central business district of the city here in sydney, has been evacuated. all those buildings. the banks. the law courts. the commercial area has been evacuated. and there was a stream of people leaving the officers, telling me
that authorities have told them to keep away from the window. they were kept in their building for hours until police could get to them and get them out safely. but certainly now we know that five hostages have managed to get away from the cafe. still here on the ground we don't know if they escaped or if they were released. but certainly according to the police commissioner, the deputy police commissioner, catherine burn, she wants this resolved peacefully. and if this is going to go into the night, and now it's gone, 7:00 p.m. local time, then they are prepared to do that. they don't want there to be any bloodshed and any violence. >> so anna, you and i, both stranl australians, we've both reported in australia. never before has there been anything like this on the australian mainland. we had the bali bombing in 2002. this is an unprecedented situation. how are people reacting to it? because it's been going on for a number of hours now.
we're getting a lot more information. is it all starting to sink in? >> reporter: yeah, definitely. and i think you're absolutely right. australia's real taste of terrorism back in 2002, when 88 australians were killed in bali, we haven't had anything like that since then. and really for this to be taking place now, still obviously these gunmen wanting an isis flag, holding up, or forcing these hostages to hold up a sign in arabic writing, it would certainly suggest that he is a sympathizer of islamic extremists, but we don't know that for sure. but yes, it's startling for people here. talking to tourists, talking to people who live, who work here, they say it is seriously offputting, it's scary. they are fearful that there
could be other people out there who want to harm australians, who want to harm our way of life. which is a very open society. a tolerant and democratic society, an open society. we know that there are people here in this country who have ties to isis, who are sympathizers of isis. we know that there are 100 citizens who go on and join the fight in iraq and syria and that there are many people still here who are supporters of those fighters. certainly australia became a target for them ever since they got involved in this fight against isis. we know we have hundreds of troops helping out, you know, advising and training the peshmerga, the kurdish forces, the iraqi forces on the ground there. and certainly, you know, fighter jets, part of the air campaign that is aggressively attacking isis. so australia very much a target. but certainly we haven't seen
anything like this on our home soil. >> yes, i'm curious, anna, this is natalie. what is that all around you? we're seeing a long line of police cars, ambulances. kind of describe the situation that you're seeing around you. >> reporter: for sure. so just to give you an idea, we're about a block from where that cafe is, the lindt cafe. and along here, this is mcquarry street, all these ambulances are parked. they've been coming here over the past several hours, obviously on standby in case the situation turns violent, turns ugly. we haven't seen any sign the five hostages who have managed to get away. we know that they're with police. there are hundreds of police in the area. but certainly this area is cordoned off. we cannot go any further. we were closer to the cafe. we had a visual of the cafe several hours ago, but police have since moved us on.
i am now here with all the rest of the media. australian media and also international media. there's a huge contingency of media here now focuses very much on this story and what it means. for australia and the threat of course of terrorism. >> and as it's emerged what the gbman demands-r the two demands, he wants an isis flag-e also wants to talk to the australian prime minister tony abbott, the authorities there have been reluctant to release that information. why is that? it seems kind of benign really in the scheme of things. so why was there concern that this information was getting out there? >> reporter: yeah, it does seem very strange, and it's certainly frustrating for us in the media trying to disseminate information to the public, to not have access to that, to not know how many hostages are still
in the building, to not know if it's only one gunman or if there are more involved. police have been extremely tight-lipped. that is the way that australian authorities operate. it always has been that way, as you would know, john, having reported here in australia for many years. it just is the culture. they want to contain it. they want to focus on resolving this situation. they don't want the media involved. we have to remember that that gunman you would have to presume chose that site. it was located opposite the 7 network australia. perfect vantage point to get the world's attention. so clearly he had an objective. now his demands, they seem a bit bizarre. they seem very strange, that he now wants an isis flag and he wants a phone conversation with the australian prime minister tony abbott. but certainly i think what we can assure you is that negotiators are talking to him, hoping that the situation will be resolved peacefully. >> okay. >> all right. anna coren for us there in
sydney. we thank you again. and it's interesting, isn't it, john, that police aren't saying much at all, but this man, whoever he is, has reached out to the media -- >> and maybe this is the point. sorry. didn't mean to interrupt. but maybe this is the point, that the police don't want him getting his message out and they've managed to stop him at every turn. he contacted a radio station, two tv stations, and it's only now, nine hours into this that really his demands, his message is actually getting out there. >> well, hopefully they do have a plan, they're working on this to figure out how to bring it to a successful conclusion. but so far, again, no one has been hurt. so thank goodness for that. we want to talk now on the phone with tiffany gender. she's a police reporter with 2gb radio. several of the hostages called into that radio station. so tiffany, what more can you add as far as what these hostages were relaying? what was their demeanor? what information did they give you about their situation?
>> well, basically, that line of communication opened up quite early is this morning. one of the men from inside the building, the lindt cafe, actually called one of our announcers on air, and they took a conversation off air. it was decided it was not really appropriate for that conversation to be going on air, a lot of sensitive information. and basically, it was identified that he was a hostage inside and that he wanted to speak to prime minister tony abbott live on air, a live on-air interview. now, of course that demand was not met. negotiators have been to that 2gb radio station all day. we've been fielding a lot of calls from people inside the building, from family members of people inside the building. who are just listening to this ordeal i guess play out on the radio. >> so let's get this straight. so people inside that cafe, inside that coffee shop, have had the ability to get on their cell phones and just call in
whenever they want? >> that's exactly right. many of them have been on social media. one hostage in particular has posted a very horrifying message on social media with a list of the demands. and they have also been texting family and friends from the inside to say look, i am inside, i am okay at the moment, these are the demands, and if they're not met, you know, threats to kill and, you know, some other very horrible threats have been made against the group. >> interesting, isn't it, that this gunman didn't take their phones away. they're sitting there texting whomever they want, it seems, and presumably they could reach out to the police or be texting with the police. we just don't know, do we? >> you're right. it is bizarre. this whole thing is playing out on facebook, twitter, you know, through radio announcers. it is a very bizarre situation. and police have actually
mobilized a special task force which is only mobilized during an act of terrorism. so basically, that allows -- i guess mobilizes the huge amount of resources that they have. it allows police to share more information with authorities, with azo and the federal government. police have just held a press conference and have said they are actively trolling through facebook and twitter to get information, you know. a lot of these -- the hostages are posting information on their facebook pages. that is one avenue that police are actually getting their information from. >> i guess the assumption could be this is a deliberate ploy maybe this gunman has taken to get the word out because what we've been talking about for many, many hours now is what they want here is publicity.
they want the megaphone so they can have their voice heard, their demands met. and one lady much like the 9/11 hijackers allowed the people on the plane to call their loved ones to tell them the plane had been hijacked. they weren't worried about that because they knew the plane was going to crash. so in a similar way this guy with the gun is letting people get this same horrific message out. >> that's exactly right. and that is fueling the fear and that is fueling their message. and police actually asked us to stop reporting those demands because it is really fueling hysteria and it is putting their message out there. and that was their objective. >> and what more have you been able to learn about the gunman, tiffiny, through these conversations? >> as your reporter mentioned earlier, police are keeping very tight-lipped on the operational information. they have not even been able to confirm how many hostages are
inside. from what i understand personally, and that's speaking to sources, that police know who the gunman-s they know who they're dealing with and they are aware of his identity. but as far as any publicly released details about that gunman, nothing is being released. >> well, we can understand that because now at least we know they know who they're dealing with and they've got a tactic to try to figure out how to deal with this person. but it is really bizarre that hostages are sitting there posting pictures -- >> making telephone calls and posting on social media. tiffiny gender the police reporter with radio 2gb giving us some very valuable information about what has actually been happening there all day long. she works at the same radio station as ray hadley. he has spoken to the suspect as well via at least one of the hostages, a 23-year-old man who actually managed to call on his cell phone into ray's radio show, and a short time ago we spoke with ray.
>> i've just come off a nine-hour shift. i normally do nine till midday. and we kept going because i made contact with the hostages. they found my program. obviously i didn't want to put them to air, so i took their calls off air. and at the same time could hear the hostage taker giving the young man who spoke to me, a 23-year-old, instructions on what he wanted to do. what's now been revealed by your reporter and others, that he wanted the i.c.e. flag, he wanted a conversation with the prime minister or he'd start to dispose of hostages. i spoke to our police commissioner, our police chief, the equivalent here in new south wales where sydney is the capital, and spoke to him, spoke to our premier, which is a bit like your governor. and they told me off air it would be best if we didn't report those matters. i kept in contact with the young man. he gave me his mobile. and we had four conversations off air. between about midday and 3:00. and then i felt troubled by his tone. so i asked the police to supply me with a negotiator.
i didn't feel equipped to keep talking with him because i'm not a trained negotiator. i'm a radio broadcaster. so the negotiator arrived here and i went off air about 20 minutes ago, about quarter past 6:00 at night our time on monday night, and the negotiators are still dealing with him. as you've been told, five people have escaped. they weren't released. three gentlemen, one of them a worker from inside the lindt cafe, and then two young ladies who are also workers escaped as well. and police continue their negotiations. they're dealing with a lunatic. they're dealing way person who's making outrageous claims. he wants to be -- he wants the government to acknowledge that this is a terrorist operation, that he's doing this on behalf of isis or isil. and the government at this particular stage are treating terrorists as you'd treat any terrorist in any part of the world, they're doing their best to secure the safety of the hostages without meeting his demands. >> just explain how the process works. you got this phone call from this 23-year-old man, this hostage which was being -- who
was being held inside the cafe there. and then he relayed what the guy with the gun was saying. he told you and you responded and he said it to the gunman? >> i could hear the gunman. well, first of all, we were a bit skeptical, as you would be, getting a phone call to your open line saying i'm a hostage. can i talk to ray on air. and so i made an editorial decision that i wouldn't talk to him on air because i was fearful that i may have been duped or that i might put people at risk. so i came off air during a three-minute commercial break and spoke to the young man. i thn rang him back and confirmed he was in fact a hostage. i spoke to police and they had a list of some hostages and his name was one of the hostages. his name was given to me by the young man. i was talking to him and in the background i could hear the hostage taker issue instructions about wanting to talk to the prime minister, calling me a scumbag, calling the media generally scumbags for incorrectly reporting isil as
being a group of people who are murderous bastards who have no regard for human life. so i heard all this in the background. i went back on air. i didn't report what i'd been told. i just said i had a phone call from a hostage and i contacted police which i did do. then he called me again and left his numbers and asked me to call him. i went to a news break and rang him again 37 this happened three times. and as i say, at the end of three or four conversations, these demands were still being made, that he wanted to talk to the -- the hostage taker wanted to talk to the prime minister, mr. abbott. i then said to police i need someone over here with a bit of expertise. a negotiator came over and started to take the calls. and since then he's had conversations with another four or five hostages through the course of the last two hours. >> ray, you said you could hear the gunman in the background making these demands. can you describe what he sounded like? >> yeah. that's what i was wondering. >> weighs he unhinged? was he yelling? >> what kind of accent he had.
>> he had a middle eastern accent with an australian tinge. he was obviously someone originally from that part of the world, be it iran or syria or somewhere else over there. and you know, we have been a country like your country very welcoming of people from that part of the world. we have a long tradition of lebanese christians coming to australia, particularly of the maronite variety, over a long period of time and more recently people of the muslim faith coming here. and the vast majority of them are peaceful, hard-working, decent people who want to mac a better life for themselves. but we have these radicals highlighted by this lunatic who still has somewhere between 12 and 25 people being held hostage. the police know, john, how many people are in there but they won't release details to the media. five have escaped, but we know originally there was somewhere between 15 and perhaps 30. sow take a guess, it's either 10 people in there or 25 people. we don't know. >> you say he threatened to dispose of hostages. i'm making the assumption he threatened to kill them. >> well, that's what he was
saying. police negotiators told me the fact that we are now into the ninth hour and no one's been hurt or injured would indicate that this is someone they can deal with, if you know what i mean. >> ray hadley there, a radio host on radio 3gb in sydney. he is one of the most listened to programs in the country. he's a very popular radio announcer. for the number one talk station in sydney. and i believe across australia, really. and he had a number of conversations with a hostage in there which he's detailing to us. but it is now appearing to be a very bizarre situation, that we're learning more details, that many of the hostages in there have been able to use their telephones to call out, to post on social media, to tweet, to post photographs or demands, whatever, on facebook as well. all of this apparently being allowed by the gunman. >> right. and all the while, according to the radio, the same radio station, he alleges he has two bombs. >> that's right.
inside the cafe. >> inside the cafe. >> and another two bombs hidden somewhere -- >> in the area. the police have had nothing to say about that. but a short while ago we did hear from the deputy commissioner of the new south wales police and she updated the situation, but she stayed clear. she continues to stay clear of confirming any specific numbers on how many people are still inside. here she is. >> i put out that plea and that message. if anybody does have information, please let us know. it's really important that you pass it on. because even the smallest snippet of information might be vital. >> there are hostages inside who are posting on facebook and social media some of the demands that the gunman's making. how are you responding to that? i know operationally that you need to keep some things under wrap, but it's out there for everybody to see. >> look, absolutely right. and we are monitoring what is happening on facebook clearly. we are monitoring what is happening on twitter. and that is forming a part of
our tactical response in how to handle this. yes, that is out there. and we are aware of that. >> what has he told negotiators? >> that's not something i can talk about, what he might be telling negotiators. but the contact that we have will be ongoing. and it will be based on our best assessment about how to get those people out safely, which is what does count most. >> some of the hostages are talking about -- >> is he making the same demands to police or is he trying to use the media to make those demands? >> i think that there's probably a number of mediums that are being used at the moment. but we all have to be very careful not to completely overreact at this time because it is still ongoing. but it is important to reiterate that we are aware of that. we are monitoring it. and we are using that as a part of our strategy. >> why couldn't he have said how many are still inside?
>> it's not something i can confirm at the moment, and it's not particularly useful to actually confirm potential numbe numbers. for people who we might be dealing with who might have concerns that a friend or a relative or a loved one might be in that building, we have set up our -- >> nb[ inaudible ]. how many maybe inside. >> that is a tactical, operational imperative. >> why is that so sensitive? >> because at this point everything has to be about the safety of the people in the location. so it's important we don't confirm at this point. >> that's catherine burn, the deputy police commissioner for new south wales speaking a short time ago, give us a little bit of new information, which was essentially what we've heard from a number of people of the demands being listed on twitter
and facebook by the hostages inside. what was interesting was she couldn't bring herself to call the people being held hostages. he had stopped herself from saying that. we should note it's coming up on 7:25 p.m. local time in sydney. all of this has been going on for nine hours and 40 minutes. we're coming up to our tenth hour. >> and want to point out this video we're seeing right here, that is the gunman and we've also should h. video as you know of the hostages putting their haunds on the glass. that was much earlier. that was hours ago before police cleared off a wider area and had the media pulled back and not even sure how we got this picture. >> and the few details that we do know, again, coming from our afwilts who have been working their sources in sydney. apparently, the gunman inside there likes to be known as the brother. that's what we know about him. and that he is in his 40s. ray hadley, the radio host who actually heard him speaking, says the gunman speaks with a middle eastern accent.
>> with an australian -- >> with an australian tinge. >> that's what we know. and we've also been told police know who they're dealing with, but they're not letting us know that. earlier we spoke with roger shanahan. he's a former australian army colonel. he's a middle east expert and a fellow at the middle east center for policy. he thinks the hostage taker chose his location for maximum international impact. here's his comments. >> it's going to be very difficult obviously to determine what the whole purpose of this was until we find out more about the hostage taker, but i think the fact that the cafe in question is directly opposite one of the major television stations in sydney, it's done right in nearly the dead center of australia's largest city in the central business district, all of these point to the fact that the person in question wanted maximum exposure not only nationally but internationally. and putting up that flag with
sh shahada on it even though it's not specifically the same as any islamist organization's flags, it's certainly a replica or a variation on a theme. so i think all of these together indicate the person in question wants a great deal of media attention placed on this. whether that's because he holds these beliefs or he has some kind of mental issue we won't know until the siege is over. >> what if that is in fact the case, that this is just a guy who is essentially suffering from some kind of mental derangement and he's grabbed this flag to try to get this attention and he has very little to do with isis? >> well, it's going to be the fact that either way he's got little to do with isis 37 but the kernel is that isis in the past has called for these kind of individual attacks against
people. they said it in the past. and also in australia. so the concern is that this kind of flag in concert with the fact that he appears to be an individual doing it in such a public way. you think that might be his expression of his belief in what isis stands for. but as you pointed out, it could also well be possible that he's somebody with mental issues. >> should we have heard any kind of statement from i.c.e. at tsi point? they're very active on twitter, social media, they love to get their memorandum out. has there been any kind of support support for this guy? claim of responsibility is probably a stretch. but any kind of message that this guy is one of ours? >> you pronl wouldn't expect to see something like that until after the situation is resolved. you would assume if he's done this he's done this off his own bat, so it's not quite a limited
degree of professionalism in what he's doing, so you would assume he's doing it off his own bat, and you would assume therefore the media branch of isis is probably playing catch-up on this issue and they'd wait to see how it resolves itself before they make some kind of proclamation as to whether they support it or what they want to spin out of this situation. >> is it possible to know how many other people like this guy are actually in australia right now? >> no, it's very difficult. police and security forces for obvious reasons are quite cagey about what they say. what we do know is that in terms of figures there's been about 20 australians killed as foreign fighters overseas. it's believed there are about 70 over there currently active. about 20 have returned after having fought. and there's been approximately
60 or more passports of people of concern that have been canceled by the australian government, stopping them from leaving the country. how many people have concern like this if that's what this person is? that kind of information is only known at the highest levels of the security services. and hello to everyone, to our viewers in the u.s. and around the world, we continue to bring you breaking news out of australia. i'm natalie allen. >> and i'm john vause. thank you for staying with us. it's now 3:30 in the morning on the east coast, 7:30 in the evening on a monday night in sydney where a gunman is still holding a number of hostages at the lindt coffee shop in the very heart of sydney's business district. sky news australia has reported that the hostage taker has identified himself as the brother. he's reportedly used his hostages to contact three media outlets. the government has three demands. phone call with australia's prime minister. he also wants an isis flag. >> that's according to media
reports. throughout this ordeal five hostages, you're about to see the first three, managed to get out. three men running out right there. two people who were just visiting the coffee shop and then an employee of the coffee shop comes out of another door. not the one that police that you see there standing behind. suddenly the door just bangs open and he comes out running. >> we believe the guy who comes out is in fact one of the workers because there's a combination of workers and customers who are being held hostage. and there he is. >> that was many, many hours ago. and of course they were debriefed by police after they got out. two women, here's the first one. also ran out a short time later. all five hostages reportedly escaped. that's not coming from the police. that's coming from other reports from the cafe. they were not released. what is not clear, almost ten
hours after this all this began, how many hostages remain inside. let's go to cnn's anna coren. she's been with us for many hours. she's standing out near just a block or so away from the scene. anna, anything new? >> reporter: no, natalie. we're just waiting for more information from police. at this stage this is as far as we can go. we're on mcquarry street. anybody who's been to the city here in sydney before would have aware this is a very busy street. we're about a block from that lindt cafe where the gunman is holding up several hostages. we don't know how many. we know as you've reported that five have managed to get away. we don't know if they have escaped or if they were released. however, we do know that police negotiators are in touch with him. that is being confirmed. that dialogue ongoing.
and hopefully this will be resolved peacefully. but certainly for now the entire area like blocks in all directions are cordoned off. hundreds of police here on the scene. and then there have also been a number of police snipers who we have seen as well. as you can see behind me, a row of ambulances lined up. obviously on standby in case anything were to go wrong. but certainly an unfolding situation. a tense situation has people very much on high alert and very concerned that this could happen here in sydney. >> anna, just for our viewers who are outside of australia who are not familiar with martin place. i think the best way to describe it, this is an ongoing siege in an area of sydney which would be like times square in new york, for instance. this is pretty much in the heart
of the city. >> reporter: yeah, absolutely in the heart of the city. there in martin place you have the reserve bank of australia. you have other financial institutions. you have the u.s. consulate. yove the 7 network australia located opposite this lindt cafe. so you'd have to assume that the gunman chose his target very carefully. he wanted that exposure. he wanted the world to watch. police have now evacuated the entire area. hundreds of staff. we spoke to some of them a little earlier. streams were coming out from beneath the police tape. asking how it all unfolded this morning. they were told they had to keep away from the glass, from the windows, in case there were any bombs, any explosions, if the gunman started firing. and then they waited for police to escort and evacuate them from these buildings. but as i say, people are fearful that this could take place.
obviously, there have been many raids anywhere australia over the past few months. terror-related raids. police trying to get on top of the situations. doing a great deal of intelligence gathering and foiling many attacks. but there have been many arrests. we know australia has been atarget. but it's another thing for it to actually be happening. >> yes, and it's been interesting to hear both of you since you're australian talk about the fact that this does not happen in australia. you can even hardly find a gun in australia, anna. and this person was able to do this. and the people in australia have now been caught up in a situation that sadly in the united states we see almost on any day, some sort of hostage situation with a gunman. >> yeah, that's absolutely right, natalie. australia's gun laws are just so strict here. and to think that somebody could
actually walk into a cafe in the middle of the city armed with a gun with other weapons is frightening because it doesn't happen, as you say. and the last time that we really, you know, i guess felt the impact of terrorism other than it happening to australians overseas was in bali back in 2002, when there were the bombings and there were 88 australians that were killed in that attack. but it's another thing for it to be unfolding here on the streets of sydney. australia clearly involved in the war against isis. hundreds of troops over in iraq helping to train the kurdish and iraqi forces. we have australian fighter jets involved in the aggressive air campaign. threats have been made against australia. threats have been made against martin place in recent weeks. but as i say, for this to be
happening, unfolding on the streets of sydney here in the heart of sydney is certainly very unnerving. >> yes. i can imagine unnerving for the people inside that coffee shop right now. so many hours. they are still in there. we don't even know how many. with this man. thank you so much, anna coren for us live there in sydney. miles godfrey is a political reporter for the "daily telegraph." and he joins us now. he's been at the hostage scene all day, and he is now on the phone. miles, most of the information we're getting has been coming from reporters who talked with hostages in there, who've been been contacted. we're not getting a lot of information at all from police. what do you know? what have you heard as far as who this person is, his demands, and how many people might still be in that coffee shop? >> yeah, good evening, guys. and good evening to your viewers. the latest information that we have is there are still a number of hostages obviously involved that are still in this cafe.
the initial reports we got this morning were there were around 13 hostages being held. that number has crept up very slightly. and we think the latest information we have is there might be around 15. in terms of the perpetrator here, i don't think it's too helpful to speculate at moment as to who he is or where he's actually from. we don't actually yet know his motives apart from the obvious banner that he has put in the cafe. that would hint at a sort of background as to where he's coming from. nevertheless, it pears he's acting alone and he is acting in terms of sort of his mental state perhaps not from a very good place. but the thing you have to remember with all of this is
that it is not actually -- it's not actually come as a huge surprise to many here in sydney. you may or may not know that we had a series of terrorism raids across the western area of sydney just a few months ago in september. and that actually led to a raising of the terror level threat here across australia from medium to high. the central part of that raid in september was an allegation that was later reported that there was a plot to kidnap someone from this very spot, from martin place. the allegation that was widely reported was that once that person was kidnapped they were going to be beheaded. now, the washout from that was a lot of people actually cast doubt on these claims and said was that really a reality, was that something that really could happen here in central sydney? and i think what we've seen today is very much it is.
we are living very much with the threat of terrorism on our doorstep. >> and miles, my understanding is one of the demands that the gunman has made is essentially he wants the world to know that australia is under attack by isis. and it seems that one of the reasons why police will not declare this a terrorist incident is because they don't want to give in to that demand. is that a fair reading? >> i think it is. and we're seeing right now at this very moment actually reports coming through that the hostages who are being held in this cafe have throughout the day been contacting a number of organizations, not to mention the national broadcaster. my understanding is they've been ringing these organizations under the demands of the hostage taker and making a number of --
not least to bring an isis flag to the cafe and also a demand for the hostage taker to be allowed to speak to the prime minister perhaps on the national radio station, something like that. now, a lot of the media organizations that have received these demands are refusing to air them. some have, and that's how we know how they've come about. but some of the broadcasters are actually refusing to pass on that information. and that is a direct result because they don't want to be seen to be assisting this guy, this madman, i guess, who's taken people hostage and is holding them under a siege. >> do you have any indication, miles, at this point as evening sets on in australia how long police are willing to wait this out. have there been any changes in the scene there? have you heard anything about -- are they allowing anything in,
anything out? food, electricity ongoing. is there any kind of informat n information? i know it's very hard to get. but anything like that you're hearing. >> actually the assistant police commissioner here, catherine burn, who heads up the sort of terrorism side i guess of the new south wales police 230rss, just in a press conference in the last few minutes actually and they said they will be there for as long as they need be. and you wouldn't expect any less of any police force anywhere in the world. not least of all the new south wales police force, which is incredibly professional and incredibly capable as well. they'll thereby as long as they need to be. we've got lives on the line here. they're not going to be taking any shortcuts. they're not going to be trying to end this quickly, by sort of pushing the situation or anything like that. in terms of food and that sort of thing being passed into the cafe, i've not actually seen any
going in there. by the very nature of the premises it's a cafe, you would think there would be some adequate splierksz food and water at the very least, to keep these people going. it's a very interesting point because it raises the question how long will this actually go on? and now we're in the 10th or perhaps the 11th hour of the siege that began around sort of 9:45, 10:00 a.m. sydney time. it's a very interesting question. all of australia and probably all of the world is surrounding their tvs this evening or whatever time of day it is in your part of the world and watching this unfold and we're all asking that question. when will this end? how long will it go for? and praying there is a speedy resolution and a safe resolution. >> and we certainly hope negotiators are talking with this person to try to talk him out of whatever else he wants. >> we do not know how long it
will go but we know how long it has gone. almost ten hours now since that gunman first walked into that coffee shop. that chocolate coffee shop. the lindt coffee shop there in martin place in sydney armed with at least some dined of shotgun and took everybody inside hostage. and in the past few hours we've seen at least five people manage to escape. there's also been communication with the hostages inside by a number of media organizations. but the police rin sifting the area is secure and they'll wait him out. and of course it is now turning into night in sydney. all this happening in the very heart of the city. chris reason be a reporter with 7 news australia was at the scene for hours. his newsroom is across from the cafe. listen to how he can describe what he can see from his position. >> let's start with what we can see of the gunman. he has been clearly identifiable
through these last few hours as he paces his way back and forth affront of the four plate glass windows that link cafe. he's wearing a white shirt, a black cap, he's unshaven and he's carrying what appears to be a pump action shotgun. that gun almost coming into the frame of the windows, often close and menacingly close to the hostages themselves. let's talk about them, mel. we've counted so far 15 different faces being forced up against the windows over these last eight, nine hours. not the 50 that had been speculated earlier. i think that number is wildly inaccurate. we're talking about that number, 15 people, combination of men and women and young people but thankfully no children involved as far as we can tell from our vantage point up here. now, you can -- the ghan seems to be rotating these people through the positions at the windows with their hands and faces up against the glass. one woman we counted was there for at least two hours. an extraordinary, agonizing time for her surely, having to stand
on her feet for that long. some of them have got their heads in their hands like this as they're standing in the windows, mel. others look so vibly upset. one whom whose eyes were bloodshot red, obviously been crying her eyes out for some time, who knows what's been going through their minds these last few hours? just a terrifying ordeal for them. and i've got to speculate here but would have been even more terrifying two hours ago when we saw the rush of escapees. we saw at this vantage point the gunman got extremely agitated as he realized those five had got out. he started screaming orders at the people inside. the hostages remain behind extremely agitated. we didn't see anything more than that. and we can't swing our camera around from this position to show you those windows directly live, mel. the police have been good enough let us get up here. we're not going into the fehr with their tactical operations
by doing that. but there's a little bit of detail about what can be seen at this time in the siege. >> that was before they evacuated the network and -- >> well, actually, what they have done is i think the timing on that is that they did evacuate the network and the police took over that building because it is line of sight directly across from the coffee shop. chris mentioned right at the end they did allow them back in to make that report. >> i see. >> but hundreds of people who work at channel 7 in that building. most of those people, pretty much all of them had in fact been evacuated. we saw earlier tonight we were broadcasting from their melbourne studios because they had to leave their sydney studios. >> and they were the first network to give us these pictures you're seeing here of people in the windows and also of the suspected gunman. reporter glenn conley describes what he saw. >> reporter: our camera was trained on the front door of the lindt cafe, and we had quite a long lens on the color.
we were able to see right 234. what we saw is nothing short of terrifying. he was using one of the employees of the lindt cafe as a human shield as he moved between what appeared to be two groups of hostages. the first group in the front window that we had seen looking across from the 7 newsroom from the very moment this began but also another group further into the cafe which led to speculation perhaps there was more than one gunman. at various times he was going backwards and forwards with his hand on the back or back of the neck of this lindt cafe employee as he moved the hostages around. we did see other hostages there. in particular a middle-aged woman in a white top who was very, very distressed. she was wiping her eyes, wiping her nose, and at one stage went to wipe her eyes and was obviously yeltd at by the gunman, her hands went straight back up in the air. she was visibly upset. we've seen that. particularly with the faces of those who escaped.
the terror in their eyes as they reached the moment of safety was something unforgettable. >> certainly agree with that. >> glenn conley there with channel 7 australia giving? good details of what happened in the last couple hours or so. >> and you've been saying, and anna coren is from australia as well, our reporter there, that this is the first time australia has seen a hostage situation like this. >> it's the terrorism dimension as well which makes this so different. >> earlier we heard from david mallen, associate director of the melbourne school of government. he told us the government has been ramping up security in the country for quite some time. here he is. >> it has been a very big concern for the past few months. at least for the government. i'm not sure it's been the case for the general public. there was a planned attack in the same part of sydney martin place a couple months ago. it led haveto very tough anti-stror laws being passed. tougher in some ways than in the u.s. you can go to prison for an extended period simply for traveling to iraq and syria
without permission. a lot like the patriot act after.95 pv. there's been a threat here but like some of the people you had the interviews for a few minutes ago, a lot of australians feel this is a safe country, nothing happens, the police are on it. and the threat comes with these lone wolves that don't necessarily have chatter that can be picked up and eventually luck runs out because the police have to be right every single time. ? very true. very hard to stop someone who walks into a coffee shop with a shotgun. >> it's a low technology, high-impact attack and they're the hardest ones to stop. americans in sydney, meantime-v been warned about the ongoing situation there in market place. the consulate, which has been evacuated, issued this statement a short time ago. "u.s. citizens are strongly encouraged to review your personal security plan, remain aware of your surroundings including local events, and monitor local news stations for updates. maintain a high level of vigilance and take appropriate steps to enhance your personal security." good advice, not just for u.s.
citizens who happen to be in sydney for pretty much for everyone who is there. >> concerning this situation ongoing in the world. witnesses to what's going on there at the cafe say australians are wandering around the streets with looks of disbelief. listen to what some people had to say near the scene. >> kind of a bit weird. like i've never seen anything like this happen. like it's probably the first time in australian history that something this major in regards to a terrorist threat has happened. >> it is worrying me, actually. as -- you know, as me as a muslim i feel because it don't represent me. and if he think that he's a muslim he's doing the right thing, then he's very bad. because that's not us. that's not the muslims doing this. that's why i'm worrying. if he think that he is -- what he's doing is islam then he's definitely wrong and everyone has to stand against him. >> people in australia shocked about what's going on.
we've been reporting that the hostages have been able to use their cell phones and they've been involved in social media throughout this deal. people on social media throughout the world have been reacting to the hostage situation for hours. many tweeting about it using the #sydney siege. many hoping for a peaceful resolution. >> one person writing hope that sydney siege at martin place will end peacefully. please remember that islam is not a crime, extremism is. they aren't the same. >> another tweeting more innocent lives at stake spilling of innocent blood is not what allah taught us. pray for those captured in the sydney siege. >> the prime minister a few hours after this began addressed the nation. he encouraged everyone to stay calm. he said this is an ongoing operation and that australians should go about their business, not to be interfered with if you like by what is happening in martin place, not to be affected by it. this is some of what tony abbott had to say.
>> i just want to make a short statement on the hostage incident in martin place in sydney. new south wales police responding. they are being strongly supported by commonwealth agencies. we don't yet know the motivation of the perpetrator. we don't know whether this is politically motivated. although obviously there are some indications that this could be. we have to appreciate that even in a society such as ours there are people who would wish to do us arm. that's why we have police and security organizations of the utmost professionalism that are ready and able to respond to our whole range of situations and contingencies including the situation that we are now seeing in sydney. the whole point of politically
motivated violence is to scare people out of being themselves. australia is a peaceful, open, and generous society. nothing should ever change that. and that's why i would urge all australians today to go about their business as usual. of course if anyone does have any suspicions of untoward activity there is the national security hotline, 1-800-123-400. which i would urge them to call. i can let you know that the national security committee of the cabinet has been briefed on this incident. i've been in regular contact with premier baird over the course of the last couple of hours.
i've been briefed by commissioner schipione of the new south wales police and by commissioner calvin of the australian federal police. this is an unfolding situation, and as the situation unfolds there will be operational updates provided by the new south wales police. i want to assure people that the ordinary business of government must go on and it will go on and that's why treasurer hawkey and finance minister corman will shortly be releasing the mid-year economic and fiscal outlook as planned. finally, this is a very disturbing incident. i can understand the concerns and anxieties of the australian people at a time like this. but our thoughts and prayers must above all go out to the individuals who are caught up in this.
i can think of almost nothing more distressing, more terrifying than to be caught up in such a situation. and our hearts go out to those people. >> [ inaudible ]. >> i'm going to leave it to the new south wales police, who are in operational charge of this incident, to provide those kinds of details. obviously, in a situation like this all sorts of reports fly around. all sorts of claims are made. so i do urge everyone to exercise caution in their reporting, but i will leave all the operational details to the new south wales police, who as i understand it will begin providing operational updates shortly. thank you. >> australia's prime minister tony abbott speaking a number of hours ago when this situation was first unfolding. and as he did say there, the new south wales police would be
providing some operational details. we have learned a lot more about what has been going on in sydney over the last ten hours or so. we understand there's more than a dozen people being held hostage inside this cafe, that the guy with the gun has made contact with three media organizations, making a number of demands. among them he wants an isis flag, he wants contact with the man you just saw there, tony abbott, the australian prime minister. he's also making these claims that there are two explosive devices, two bombs inside the cafe -- >> none of that confirmed. >> yeah. somewhere in the cbd. we've also seen over the course of the last few hours five people managing to escape from inside this cafe. >> yeah, we have. and we have the compelling pictures of the women who left the building with the lindt apron. five total. we still don't know how they were able to get out.
most reports are they escaped. it wasn't a negotiation release. we don't know. although tony abbott said the police would bring us an update, they are not forthcoming. >> they like to control the situation as best they can. all is taking place in the lindt chocolate coffee shop. it is a popular place in the morning, especially when the siege began. the company put a statement out on facebook and addressed the situation. it read in part "we would like to thank everyone for this kind support for the situation at the lindt chocolate cafe at martin place." we are deeply concerned over this serious incident and our thoughts and prayers are with the staff and customers involved and all of their friends and families. >> we don't know how many people left in the coffee shop are workers or employees of the
lindt company or people who were just stopping to get coffee. >> we know it is a mixture of both staff and customers who are still being held hostage. we did get some details from the police that negotiators had made contact with the gunman. those negotiations are continuing. they are working out who this guy is. we have been told by our affiliates in australia they know who this man is, but not releasing details. this guy is an aspirational jihadist who wants to be linked to isis in some way. there have been messages of support from the canadian prime minister and the u.s. president barack obama has been briefed. >> we will continue to report on the interesting aspect that the gunman has had reach out to the media. the hostages reached out to the media. we will continue our coverage
at today's sessions hearing. >> the equivalent of being made to go to the back of the bus. >> major holes in tillerson's sanctuary. >> were we lobbying before or against? >> i'm a germaphobe, believe me. >> when "all in" starts right now. good evening from new york, i'm chris hayes. there are just nine days until donald trump becomes president of the united states. today we were inundated with news, much of it disturbing, about what to expect when he takes office. in fact there was so much news today it is, frankly, impossible for us to fully cover what we saw and heard, which may well have been the point. we are going to aggressively cover the issues we have deemed most important and they are big ones. among them, the president-elect evoking nazi germany to characterize u.s. intelligence agencies, offering kind words to the russians who the intelligence community believe hacked the dnc and clinton campaign.
trump's secretary of state pick exxonmobil ceo rex tillerson possibly lying under oath at his confirmation hearing about exxonmobil lobbying against russian sanctions and an impassioned and unprecedented plea from a sitting senator, cory booker, to reject trump's attorney general nominee senator jeff sessions over his record on civil rights. but we begin with the story we believe to be most important at this pivotal moment and what this day with as about. the nearly incomprehensible set of conflicts of interest that result from refusing to relinquish ownership of a multibillion dollar organizations that is engaged with businesses and countries around the world, the full scope of which we still don't know. that's because trump refuses to release his tax returns. >> well, i'm not showing tax returns, as you know, they're under audit. >> reporter: every president since the '70s has had an irs. >> i've never heard that. you know, the only ones who care about my tax returns are the
prevented from doing so so there is no way of knowing whether they were genuine documents or just phony visual aids like the supposed trump steaks that trump showed off last march which turned out to have been purchased from a south florida meat company and still had the labels on them to prove it. to explain the steps he took, trump brought to the stage attorney sheri dillon whose lau firm won the 2016 law firm of the year. she said trump is not liquidating his assets because doing so could lead to "unreasonable losses" for trump and this is simply too high a burden. >> the approach we've outlined today will avoid potential conflicts of interest or concerns regarding exploitation of the office of the presidency without imposing unnecessary and unreasonable losses on the president-elect and his family. >> that position prompted this response from the head of the office of government ethics
independent trustee as oge has advised him to do. he did not deal with his emoluments clause problems, the unconstitutional flows of funds and other benefits from foreign governments and their agents. what he announced with his children is more like an ethics sieve, full of holes. so he gets "f" across the board. >> i should say that walter shaub gave a remarkable speech, we exerted some of it. he basically agreed with you, norm, this is not my area of expertise. mr. painter, what about the argument that was made explicitly by the president-elect's lawyer that forcing divestiture would essentially cost the president-elect too much money. that it would be too painful, too large, to unreasonable a financial sacrifice? >> well, in the bush
administration as the chief ethics lawyer i worked with a lot of incoming cabinet officials who sold off assets and left money on the table, stock options and other money, and, yes, it cost them money to enter public service. i took a substantial pay cut to go work in the white house. that's what public service is all about. i am thrilled to have a president who has friends all over the world who will offer him $2 billion and so forth, that's great, but that's got to stop as of january 20. he's got to focus on being president and this is -- business is worth a lot to him but i'm sure he could sell it off for a couple of million dollars which is plenty of money for him, but this government everyday spends more money than that business is probably worth and he is in charge of it as president of the united states. he's got to focus on his job and walter shaub's job at the office of government ethics is to advise government officials
including the president on complying with a conflict of interest standard and walter is exactly right. there has been a political war against the office of government ethics this week conducted by super pacs and against walter in particular, trying to line him up for getting fired by the president or something like that and i have said this at the brookings institution this afternoon. if there's a saturday night massacre aatoge, we won't stand for that in the united states and we won't stand for a president who would tolerate that. this is an independent agency that implements ethics laws in the executive branch. walter shaub has a job to do and he is doing it and it's time for the president to focus on his job and to divest for those business enterprises instead of attacking the office of government ethics. >> i should note the saturday night massacre a reference to the attempted firing of key department of justice officials by richard nixon which essentially was the end of the end. >> well, they did fire them,
they got down to robert bourque who would take care of the job for them. but that's not going to happen and we won't let that happen in this administration unless president trump wants to go the sa way nixon went. >> those are strong words and i want to talk about -- i'll let you -- you gentlemen referred to as a constitutional crisis, which you, ambassador, referred to. it bans emoluments for american officials. sheri dillon issued kind of fro from the bench her constitutional ruling, quite clear about what is and is not an an emolument. here's what she had to say. >> since president-elect trump some people want to define emoluments to cover routine business transactions like paying for hotel rooms. they prevent what the
president-elect isn't aware of. these people are wrong. >> you're wrong ambassador is that correct? >> like many of her client's tweets and statements, it's tolly incorrect. the emoluments clause, it's a fancy 18th century word. all it's intended to say is that presidents of the united states cannot get cash and other benefits from foreign governments and you can understand why that would be a coern, how cane know if somebody's getting these $2 llion offers. >> right. >> let's say that came from a foreign government. we don't know if a foreign government was involved in that or not. how can we know they're doing what's in the best interest of the united states? the founders were very concerned about that. they put this in the constitution and donald trump is allowing all of that to
continue. it's absolutely shocking. >> ambassador norm eisen and richard painter, gentlemen, you have been really, really helpful in understanding and navigating all this and i thank you for your time tonight. >> thank you, chris. still to come, filmmaker michael moore with his reaction to the slights, vendettas and unanswered questions from the president-elect's first press conference. as that press conference was going on, we got our first chance to hear trump's pick for secretary of state and his somewhat inconsistent views about russia. we'll dive into the rex tillerson hearing ahead. >> let me ask you this question -- is vladimir putin a war criminal? >> i would not use that term. >> well, let me describe the situation in aleppo and perhaps that will help you reach that conclusion. (vo) maybe it was here, when you hit 300,000 miles. or here, when you walked away without a scratch. maybe it was the day your baby came home. or maybe the day you realized your baby was not a baby anymore. every subaru is built to earn your trust. because we know what you're trusting us with.
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of this is the equivalent of being made to go to the back of the bus. it is a petty strategy and the record should reflect my consternation at the unprecedented process that braug us here. >> the confirmation hearing of senator jeff sessions. congressman cedric richmond had strong words for the senate judiciary committee's decision to place key testimony against sessions from members of congress at the end of today's hearing. the former chairman of the judiciary committee and ranking member senator patrick leahy said he cannot remember a time when lawmakers who testified were put at the end of the hear. among those testifying at the end of the hearing today, civil rights icon and congressman john lewis and senator cory booker who today we believe just became the first sitting senator to testify against a colleague in a confirmation hearing ever. >> if confirmed, senator sessions will be required to pursue justice for women, but his record indicates that he
won't. he will be expected to defend the equal rights of gay and lesbian and transgender americans but his record indicates that he won't. he will be expected to defend voting rights but his record indicates that he won't. >> it doesn't matter how senator sessions may smile, how friendly he may be, how he may speak to you. we need someone who can stand up, speak up and speak out for the people that need help. >> joining me now, share lynn ifill. share lynn, i should be clear your organization has been a strong opponent of senator sessions. let me ask you if you saw anything in the last two days that changed your mind? >> no, i didn't see anything that changed my mind. in fact, chris, i saw several
things that deepened the concerns that we expressed about senator sessions, we've been familiar with him since 1985 when lawyers at the naacp legal defense fund represented three civil rights activists, two of whom had been close friends of martin luther king who senator sessions prosecuted when he was u.s. attorney in alabama. they were acquitted but that prosecution had long-standing affects on that community in terms of intimidating black voters who were questioned by the fbi and who senator sessions allowed to be intimidated by members of his team. so we've known him and his record for a long time. what i heard yesterday was in my view what is a very cynical effort to dismiss a record of over 40 years senator sessions has been a u.s. attorney, the attorney general of alabama for about two years and then the a united states senator and in that time we've had an
opportunity to see where he stands on a variety of civil rights issues. he was rejected, as you know, by the senate judiciary committee in 1986 when he sought to become a federal district judge because they found that the evidence of that prosecution and statements he was accused of making made him unsuited to be a federal district judge. yesterday he said he was wrongly characterized, you can find our report on our web site that starts looking not only from 1985 but up to this century and 2017, including during the campaign of president-elect trump where senator sessions was a close ally and was the first sitting senator to endorse president-elect trump. >> i want to talk about one specific area that i've been following myself for a book i wrote and something you and i have spoken about, which is policing. particularly because this justice department under president obama i would say,
particularly in the second term, has played a muscular role in the civil rights division in patterns and practices investigations of cities from chicago to cleveland to baltimore to ferguson and consent decrees that are federal efforts to reform policing externally for localities that have proven to be unable to do that for themselves. here's what senator sessions had to say about those consent decrees today. take a listen. >> it's a difficult thing for a city to be sued by the department of justice and to be told that your police department is systematically failing to serve the people of the state or the city. so that's an august responsibility of the dow jonat general and the department of justice so they often feel forced to agree to a consent decree just to remove that stigma. >> that was obviously yesterday. what do you make of that answer?
>> well, i think you have to combine it with even more testimony yesterday, the fact he was endorsed by the fraternal order of police, there was a phalanx of law enforcement there to support him yesterday and the head of the fraternal order of police testified on his behalf today and they all essentially said the same thing, and what they said and what i heard out of the mouth of senator sessions is that he intends to be a champion of local police, that he does not believe the federal government through the department of justice should be intruding in local policing matters. he said specifically he thinks that too many people, including the department, are paintin entire place departments as being engaged in unconstitutional conduct when in fact it's just a few officers, a few bad apples, something we've heard before. we he's a proponent of that view. he has been skeptical about consent decrees for many years, not just recently. but what we heard from him at this hearing makes me quite
certain that senator sessions, if he is confirmed, will be taking a very different tack on policing reform. i do not expect pattern and practice investigations, i do not expect consent decree. i hope he will continue work of the cops office that works on retraining police departments but that remains to be seen. i was not encouraged by what i heard from his lips yesterday and what i heard today. as you know, local practices like in ferguson, it was the department of justice that discovered this kind of pyramid scheme that ferguson was running, it was department of justice that discovered unconstitutional policing in baltimore and we need to department of justice to be engaged in that activity. >> those patterns and practices report which is you can find on line are remarkable reading produced by that same department that the senator would be running, sherrilyn ifill, thank you for your time. >> thank you, chris. up next, nine days away from his inauguration, president-elect donald trump escalated his feud with his own intelligence agencies by -- and i'm not making this up -- comparing them to nazis. that story after the short break. just thinking about it?
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>> trump referring to an unverified dossier containing embarrassing claims about his alleged ties to russia which was prepared by a third-party individual, not members of the intelligence community, and published not by the intelligence community but by buzzfeed news. that came after the president-elect opened his press conference with a broadside against american intelligence officials whom he blames for talking to the press. >> i want to thank a lot of the news organizations here today because they looked at that nonsense that was released by maybe the intelligence agencies, who knows but maybe the intelligence agencies which would be a tremendous blot on their record if they, in fact, did that, a tremendous blot. >> and in a particularly astonishing moment, frankly, the president-elect admitted openly to setting traps for the intelligence community in an attempt to find out whether they've been leaking about his classified briefings.
>> i said maybe it's my office. maybe my office. and what i did is i said i won't tell anybody, i'm going to have a meeting and i won't tell anybody about my meeting with intelligence, nobody knew, not even ronne, my executive assistant for years. she didn't know. i didn't tell her. the meeting was had, the meeting was over, they left and immediately the word got out that i had a meeting. >> now based on the reporting over the past few weeks -- and admittedly it's a lot of anonymous sources and hard to make sense of -- it's clear at least a significant portion of the american intelligence apparatus appears to believe that the incoming president of the united states, their future boss is potentially the turned asset of a foreign adversary and at the same time that same man, the president-elect, seems to think that the intelligence apparatus is out to destroy him politically by staging a kind of soft coup. it's a recipe for a major constitutional crisis in the very near future. and the urinar.
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today for the first time. trump's response to the election hacks, the claims of ties between his inner circle and the kremlin and his general stance towards russia all make up at this point the single most controversial aspect of the president-elect's foreign policy. so it was fitting that today while trump was giving his press conference, his nominee for secretary of state, rex tillerson, was testifying in his first confirmation hearing on capitol hill. tillerson has had extensive contact with the russian government as the ceo of exxonmobil, even winning russia's order of friendship award in 2013 after making a half trillion deal with the government-owned oil company. asked about russia's role in the election, he sounded a somewhat different note than his would be boss. do you believe during the 2016 presidential campaign russia intelligence services directed a campaign of active measures involving the hacking of e-mails, the strategic leak of these e-mails, the use of internet trolls and the dissemination of fake news? >> i did read the interagency report released on january 6.
that report clearly is troubling and indicates that all of the actions you just described were undertaken. >> senator bob menendez, a democrat, asked whether tillerson's responses reflect the views of the president-elect himself. >> i assume to some degree you've had some discussion about what it is that that world view is going to be in order to understand whether you're willing to execute that on behalf of the person you're going to work for. >> in a broad construct in terms of the principles that are going to guide that, yes, sir. >> i would have thought russia would be at the top of that considering the actions taking place, is that -- did that not happen? >> that has not occurred yet, senator. >> that's pretty amazing. >> senator menendez asked tillerson about his company's history of opposing economic sanctions including those leveed against russia for its invasion of crimea. this was the response. >> first, i have never lobbied against sanctions personally. >> the company you directed did.
>> to my knowledge exxon never lobbied against sanctions, not to my knowledge. >> new jersey senator bob menendez. shortly after that your colleague senator corker said "mr. tillerson i believe you called me to lobby against sanctions." later in the committee meeting you then pulled out the lobbying disclosure forms that showed exxon had filed disclosure forms to lobby on sanctions. do you believe that mr. tillerson was being deceptive with you today? >> well, he was either avoiding the truth or his management style has got to be ofoncern as he seeks to head one of the biggest departments of the federal government, the state department, not only with its operations here but across the world. it's impossible to almost believe that you could spend and direct millions of dollars in bobbying activities as those reports that i submitted for the
record show and not know that was happening and not know they were lobbying against sanctions. the second thing he said to me when i presented the evidence, he said to me "well, it doesn't say whether we were lobbying for or against." in what world would he have lobbied for sanctions that would have hurt the bottom line of his company? so it clearly was at least not transparent and worrisome because if he really didn't know, how do you operate a large institution like the state department and what's your management style? >> he also -- exxonmobil responded saying let's be clear, we engaged with lawmakers to discuss sanction impacts, not whether or not sanctions should be opposed although that strikes me as a distinction without a difference if you come to a member's office and say "this is going to hurt our bottom line" you don't have to say "that's why you should oppose it." >> absolutely. mr. tillerson said it was to seek information and guidance. well, you don't have to have a lobby disclosure form in order
to seek information or guidance. you have a lobby disclosure form because you are taking a specific position for or against a specific piece of legislation or regulatory action. that thing about getting information is not tenable because you don't need to do that to file a disclosure form. they were clearly lobbying against sanctions on iran, russia and other iterations of those sanction regimes. >> so was this fundamentally deceptive? i asked at the beginning but he says he never personally lobbied then you have your colleague saying "you called me." do you feel the answers he gave today were forthcoming and truthful? >> no, i have serious questions as to what he answered. on the whole sanctions regime, which is part of our limited arsenal of peaceful diplomacy tools so you don't have to go to war over disputes, he had it all over the place. he has a history of lobbying against it to exxonmobil then he says they can be powerful -- a
powerful tool. and when i asked him today, without specifying with sanctions, do you not believe on the face of everything russia has done including trying to affect our own national presidential elections that additional sanctions should be called for and he wouldn't commit to that. so i have a real concern as to where he stands as it relates to that and other issues. >> all right, senator bob menendez, thank you for your time, appreciate it. >> thank you. still to come, today's press conference served as a stark reminder of the temperament of the incoming president. i'll talk about it with michael moore ahead. plus, a truly, truly bizarre thing 1, thing 2 that you have to see after this break.
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this painting is one of hundreds of winners from 2016 done by a high schooler in missouri who lives just miles away from ferguson where michael brown was fatally shot in 2014. as you can see, the painting depicts several figures as fferenanimals, a police officer who appears to be a warthog is aiming a gun at another figure who appears to be a wolf. a second officer depicted with unspecified animal-like figures. that painting has been stolen three times in six days, leading one congressman to seek charges for theft against one of his colleagues and another to say "we may just have to kick shall be's ass." we'll tell you who's behind the heist in 60 seconds. just like the people who own them, every business is different. but every one of those businesses will need legal help as they age and grow. whether it be help starting your business, vendor contracts or employment agreements. legalzoom's network of attorneys can help you every step of the way so you can focus on what you do.
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and returning it to the office of missouri congressman lacey clay who represents the artist's district. yesterday morning representative clay and fellow members of the congressional black caucus returned the painting to its rightful place. clay even asked capital police to press charges against hunter but they declined. later tuesday, doug lam born was the second republican congress to just take the painting down with no authorization and, again, congressman clay had it returned to the gallery wall. before the end of the day, congressman dana or arohrabached brian ban bin removed it for a third time. as of this evening, the painting is back up but the fight continues. congressional republican staffer "making it a top priority" to request a review from the capital architect on whether the painting should be removed. and speaker paul ryan told members he will try to take it down to which congress a.m. black caucus chair cedric richmond responded "if this is something speaker ryan thinks is one of his priorities in a new congress, to pick on an
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lindsey graham. i've been competing with him for a long time. he's going to crack that 1% barrier one day. i didn't realize lindsey graham's still at it. >> president-elect donald trump's performance in today's press conference served as a stark reminder he is still the same person he was during the election. as trump stands poised to become the president of the united states entering office with a 37% approval rating, he still seems most comfortable pursuing vendettas, responsing to slights and engaging to outright intimidation. while the president-elect couldn't resist a jab at former enemies like senator lindsey graham today, most of his it have -- vitriol was reserved for the people in the room. >> most of the media outlets are fake news. i could name them, but i won't
bother. you have a few sitting in front of us. as far as buzzfeed which is a failing pile of garbage writing it, i think they'll suffer the consequences. they already are. i'm not showing tax returns, they're under audit. >> reporter: every president since the '70s has had an audit. >> reporter: since you're attacking us, can you give us a question? mr. president-elect, since you are attacking -- >> not you. not you. >> reporter: can you give us a chance? >> your organization is terrible. i'm not going to give you a question, i i can you state categorically -- >> you are fake news. >> that man -- not the man sitting down, the man standing up, is about to become the most powerful person in the world. i will ask filmmaker michael moore what that means for our democracy next. ♪ don't let the food you eat during the day haunt you at night. nexium 24hr... shuts down your stomach's active acid pumps... to stop the burn of frequent heartburn... all day and night. have we seen them before? banish the burn with nexium 24hr.
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>> well, first of all, i'll speak as a director, then, as a film director. it was a masterful performance, he owned the room, he owned the day, this should be very distressing to everyone. >> you think it was politically effective today? >> absolutely. especially for he and his side. >> as showmanship? >> as such -- i did this in my hold. take those same words you just showed "you are fake news." put those words in nixon's mouth, it would have sounded like the paranoid that nixon was. put those words in george w. bush's mouth, you know, it would have sounded defensive like a little boy. this guy pulls that off and he pulls it off over and over and over again and confuses the situation with so much -- you don't know -- we don't have enough time here to deal with everything that was said and done but speaking as a director, once again, the props, the trump steaks were replaced by file folders that -- by the way, i don't know if this has been
reported, they wouldn't let the reporters -- >> we did. one of our own reporters tried to look. >> yeah, because of course somebody went to staples and hour earlier. >> i don't know but that certainly is plausible. >> creatined this problem that looks like a law student's dorm room, you know? it really -- >> it's like obviously we've thought this through and obviously we've addressed the conflict of interest, just look at how many sheets of paper there are. >> just look at all this paper in an era where none of this is really on paper. so this is where now after this -- what happened today the threat against cnn and nbc has suffered the same sort of threat before. >> he attacked our reporter katy tur on multiples on occasions. >> absolutely. so now it's critical that the media do its job and do not be afraid, do not back down, do not try to -- because buzzfeed screwed up in some way because of the michael cohen thing,
don't now not do your job because this clearly was something that wasn't vetted. >> so here's my -- you're referring to that dossier which circulated, published by buzzfeed that contained a bunch of unverified and possibly unverifiable, frankly, outlandish and lurid accusations. you could tell from the first moment that in a smart tactical sense they were going to attack the weakest point so that was distinct from the cnn report, right? but he conflate it had two very wisely, i thought, to attack them both and -- >> correct. and the main story, really, if you're a serious journalist, isn't the salacious prostitute stuff. it's the second point which is was there collusion between the trump campaign and any russians during the campaign? that's worthy of the investigation that apparently the fbi and others are doing right now. >> we should note jim acosta -- that was the question he was asking, can you state
categorically it was dodged. acosta then said afterwards someone from abc asked that and the president-elect said no so i want to enter that in the record. here's my question to you. i have watched this play out in the transition period and what i've noticed is this. donald trump ultimately became president-elect i think because he was able to profit off a forced choice between himself and hillary clinton and hick because of 30 years in the public eye because of different factors, he was able to say you may not like me but it's me or her. it strikes me he has replaced hillary clinton with the media. he is now running against the media. >> the scary part of that analogy is you have hillary who won but because of the democrats and who they are and the way they are she lost. >> well, she didn't win in the sense that she did not win the 270 electoral votes necessary to become president.
>> well, let me put it a different way. if donald trump had won by three million popular votes -- >> things would have played out differently. >> what would be going on right now? >> i agree. >> in fact, he laid the ground work for it. >> correct. >> so play that out. so when you say the press has to be uncowed and i agree with you, my own personal perspective on this, they have to focus as much as possible which is very difficult to do, very difficult to do. >> yes, right because you're dealing with somebody with certain issues, we'll call it that just to -- >> who likes to pick a million fights. >> and says a million crazy things. he will in one moment say he believes russia did hack into the dnc and literally less than a minute later -- >> say i don't know. >> maybe not, maybe it was some other country. fortunately the 400 pound guy sitting on the bed has been left out of the discussion but it could be other countries. it could be other countries. so this is crazy time but it's
so important. we're laughing about this but the media. >> they said this story has been floating around, did you hear it? >> i had heard word of it. i didn't read the dossier. but what i had read was david corn's piece based off this dossier. in terms of the first order of questions, i think you don't publish that dossier, that's my own personal feeling because you have to verify stuff that you publish. that's my feeling. >> no, that's correct. >> thank you. >> and as someone who -- i myself have had buzzfeed print things about me that aren't true so i -- >> now you're sounding trumpish. >> well, no, it's just the truth that this is where this is going to be the undoing of the press if they don't do what you just said, if that kind of serious journalism doesn't happen and and we should point out that nbc
universal is an investor in buzzfeed. any time that's mentioned it should be said. >> yes. they are. so we should say here, though, that that the -- you're getting at the pay dirt here, what is the term he used? they appropriate this term, fake news. fake news is this term -- >> he's one of the founders of in the the obama era. he created the fake news of the -- >> barack obama is not a citizen. >> and he said that there was intelligence. >> that's right. he was called by a reputable source that there was intelligence. he himself was going to -- he was hiring investigators to support his fake news. he is the godfather of this deck ka -- decade's fake news. for him to say fake news -- >> well, this is a great point. as a person who launched his political career off of unverifiable and ultimately incorrect conspiratorial and frankly racist theories about the president's crypto kenyan birth and forged documents and
all this stuff. >> and the fact that -- the way he deals with the sex thing is his defense is i'm a germaphobe. he just admits it publicly on tv "i'm a germaphobe." like to him that takes care of any sex -- like sex is all dirty and germy. whatever. >> well -- >> that's what he used. >> this could have never happened. >> i won't get into the weeds. >> this couldn't have happened because i'm a germaphobe and i know where they put the cameras in the hotel rooms, i have hotels. >> that was also fascinating. but the term fake news and what i found potent about that is describe this specific thing that happened during the election, you see it all the time, in your facebook feed, denzel washington endorses donald trump. that's jus not a true thing and the people that wrote that know it's not true. it's not even that important, frankly, but not true. >> he even tweeted -- i put out a movie against him called "trumpland" just before the election and he tweets "thank you, michael moore, for putting out trumpland."
and it's like -- i thought at the time he sees his name in the title. it's -- to a narcissist it's always a great thing to see you name. >> to be mentioned, yeah. >> but it's just -- >> but we're through the looking glass. he has appropriated this term to say it's a judo move where it's -- it's fake news. >> this was genius today. he pulled it off now we'll see if the press decides to back down or come back at him. >> and stay on the conflict story. >> and stay on the fact that he is a founder of fake news and that's -- and when he says things like "over the weekend i was offered $2 billion." have you ever heard a president or president-elect ever say "yeah, i just got offered $2 billion." >> and i have to say, i was happy for that moment because it was news, we didn't know that and it concretized precisely the conflict problem we have been trying to illustrate on this show. michael moore, thank you. >> and thank you and let me just
as we see this splits. >> yes, let me walk you through donald trump's strategy over the next three days to do the ten state splits. we are calling that hillary clinton's blue firewall, the states of wisconsin and pennsylvania. that's one region and then you know donald trump has to be able to win the must-win florida and north carolina. if he does not win any of those states, this race is over. he has to be able to hone onto that. he wants to be able to go out to the west and see if he could pick off a state like colorado, for example, that helps him out. just to kind of show you then, you know, hillary clinton's
holds. pennsylvania is critical to that. michigan is critical to that. that's a reliably blue state and she will be here later today. and campaigning later on tonight with jay z, she's adding a stop this weekend. the polls are all tied up. she's battling for every vote and not taking any vote for granted, thomas. >> kristen, standby, lets go to our katy tur. this rhetoric that trump is using that clinton is likely under an investigation for a long time, america deserves a president who can go to work on day one. is this red meat where the folks already supported? >> well, it is. it is aimed at those republicans that are out there that are uncomfortable with donald trump and trying to get them to get up and get out and go to the
polling booth and cast their ballots for trump and instead of somebody like a third party candidate or somebody they made perhaps write in and as we saw, some folks say they're going to write in a third party candidate including john kasich who wrote in john mccain when he was? ohio. what they are trying to do is paint hillary clinton as somebody that's so questionable and somebody who has so many issues in office and including an investigation and they within the to say it will end up with a criminal indictment even though they do not know that's going to happen. so they can scare those republicans into coming home. mit romney enjoyed a lot more republican support than donald trump has at the moment over 93% or 94% or 95%. in order for donald trump to be competitive or any democrats for that matter, he's going to slit f solidify all the republican votes as they can.
there is some indications that is working. i was talking to sources in new hampshire who tells me the polls are tightening in that state. republicans are coming home to donald trump in a way where they have not seen before this past week. they're still unsure that he will be able to pull it off in new hampshire but hopeful than they were a week ago and above anything else of what this is happening, of kellyanne conway and new hampshire and pennsylvania and others across the country including marco rubio and florida. they are going to don't do this and they hope that donald trump stays on message and we see him on the campaign trail and he acknowledges this and at oftentimes he can be his own wor words. >> we know that toomey -- you katie and kristen welker, has
team trump responded about upcoming indictment for clinton? >> reporter: no, the trump campaign has not responded to that. they have been using that and saying that just came out and hillary clinton is going to be criminally indicted and they use this fox news reporting but they have not commented since brett bearer have backed off of it. yesterday, he said this was artful terminology. today he's apologizing that it is not just artful but inaccurate. >> kristen what about how is team clinton responded of a false story? >> reporter: no reaction to that. you remember in the wake of
comey coming forward and announcing that he's looking into newly discovered e-mails, clinton campaign turning the pressure on comey, hey, if you are going to do this, release all the information. we saw that from her top surrogate. clinton is not talking about this issue anymore. she's trying to turn the page. you will hear some of her top circuit taking this on. >> it is friday, the e-mail from comey came out on friday, the "access hollywood" came out on a friday that hurt donald trump. what will happen this friday? >> anybody's guess. katy, and kristen and mark and jacob, everybody thank you very much, appreciate it. i want to follow on this case of chris christie. >> bill baroni, chris christie will be campaigning for trump.
he released this statement that reads in part. let me be clear, once again, i had no knowledge prior to or during these lane realignments and had no roles of authorizing them and anything said to the contrary over the past six weeks in court is simply untrue. i want to bring in our legal correnspo correnspondent, ari melber. >> well, we have been following two cases and this is a jury to your question decided that there were something rotten there that this is what this administration did and convicted to christie's aids. that's not good. nine counts and of wired fraud. the problem with chris christie is how that looks and if he had former aids singling him out.
the good news for chris christie is that this case is finally over. he was not ever charged to be fair and clear and thus in that sense, the legal chapter appears closed. >> all right, i have halie touched on this at the end of last hour of the rolling stone verdict and the fact that there is three people, defendants in the defamation trial and how this has moved forward. >> this is a story that ran rolling stone, alleging a rather graphic gang-rape at a fraternity on campus. the administrator from the school sued and said not only your story was false but you defamed me along with others in doing it so recklessly. >> people often say i am going to sue, i will sue for defamation and you lied about me. very rarely those cases go to
court and when they do, rarely you will get these major guilty verdict. >> with this jury found just in the last hour, no, there was recklessness and there were actual malice, these people did not just do their jobs poorly, they did their job incredibly recklessly, they did not get the basic fact-checking and the basic stories that a reporter is supposed to do. we are not talking about jail, we are talking about money damages up to $7 million. >> that chapter would come later. this is a huge blow to rolling stone which i should mention and people probably know at home has published a great number of issues and music and cultures and rights over the years. this story is a blemish for that. >> did rudy giuliani knows
about last friday's, of october's surprise two days before the story broke. >> i mean i am talking about some -- pretty big surprise. >> yeah, i heard you said that this morning. what did you mean? >> you will see. >> you are lucky because we got to go. i am out of town. >> we are not going to go down. we are not going to stop fighting. we got a couple of things off our sleeves that should turn us around. >> why agents reportedly are against hillary clinton and what these new claims could mean for the race going forward. first, a reminder our coverage begins tomorrow eastern with a live one hour show hosted by your own joanne reid and tuesday tuned in on our msnbc election beginning at 9:00 a.m. eastern. .
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investigation into hillary clinton's private server and making that information public. those reports suggesting that fbi agents have a highly in favorable view of hillary clinton. a fresh story that's out today. spencer, it is great to have you with me. you spoke to fbi agents that's serving into the organization. take us through your reporting and what you uncover. >> i want to see what fbi agents thought about comey's decision putting the fbi front and center days before people going to the polls. what i found was an extraordinary climate. some people were saying that no matter of the support for trump, some were serious and kind
of -- there is a tremendous towards hillary clinton. >> did you find folks wanted to speak out on this on background and give you the kind of insights and look at what the climate was like? >> it was extremely difficult. >> people were reluctant to criticize an agency that they feel they are personally attached to. >> has comey put himself in an in possible position? >> he's extremely in a difficult position. >> some point presuming that she's elected president. comey is going to have to find some way of working with with her and that may under mind the relationship between the white house and the fbi. >> we played this earlier of rudy giuliani raising eye brows of what he said last week about
this and what he said today. >> you are going to hear about it the next few days. i am talking about some pretty big surprise. >> oh yeah, i heard you said that this morning, what did you mean? >> we'll see. we got a couple of things up our sleeves that should turn this around. >> a couple of days before this broke and you looked and you said look out, something is coming down and certainly it did. what did you know and a lot of network pointed that out. >> i am not part of it at all. all i heard was former fbi agents telling me that there is a revolution going on inside the fbi and now is at a boiling point. >> so there are people in the fbi leaking information into trump's team. >> that's what it sounds like. rudy giuliani , he had a history of playing politics. i am a native new yorker.
it is going to be difficult to manage and put rank and file fbi agents trying to do their job with integrity in a difficult situation. >> spencer, great work. national security for the guardian. >> today our pulse question, reports say the u.s. government is concerned hackers from russian may try to under mine the election, are you worried your vote may be compromised? >> coming up in the case, the fight to finish, which gives us the best idea on what could happen when those ballots are all in and experts weigh on the other side of this break. my name is barbara and i make dog chow natural. now that i work there, i value the food even more. i feed it to yoshi because there are no artificial colors,
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it really is turning into a true fight. we got both nominees in the battleground with their running mates these final few days. hillary clinton has made campaign stops to florida 25 times to donald trump 37. she made 15 stops in ohio today. trump makes his 26th visit to that very posimportant state. trump travels there for his 24th time. clinton has made 15 stops in north carolina and donald trump of 21. the trump campaign relies on their nominee's star power out there, clinton has the power of the president and elizabeth warren and formal president, bill clinton on the trail for her. how is early voting coming out.
we got our democratic strategist and peter hart. >> gentlemen, it is good to have you with us. we have 36 million votes are being cast. is early voting a good predictor when we get to tuesday evening for the results. >> well, you cannot use early voting to predict how people are voting. the most poimportant thing is lk what we are seeing in the electorelec electorate. >> so peter, the pulse captures something that cannot be determined by early voting data. >> the early voting data as steve says is exactly right. it tells you about the organization and that's going to make a difference on election day. you will learn that.
the polls will cross section of americans. as we can see the election is very close and as you pointed out, thomas. you look at the states where hillary and trump are going and essentially what it shows you is michigan is going to account for a lot and they're closing out in pennsylvania. >> well, it is where they are going and going and seems to continue to make these trips to the same old spots. we are seeing wild fluctuations in polls. this is a good example of the washington post polls where we saw hillary clinton leading by 12 points and leading by two of the following week. what do you say of the volatility and what's driving? >> this is the strangest election cycle of our history and voters just kind of reacting to it. it is interesting though and i know peter knows this more than i do. i think that's important to keep in mind that we are fighting over four or faive states.
>> really, it has not moved since labor day. this does come down to which one of these campaigns going to grind it out in four or five states. >> peter, are we going to see a total redefined and folks like yourself are going to look at this and wonder of 2016, we just got this new free press michigan polls. this was done on the first and the third, the four point margin of error, that's a tie. the fracture is within the blue wall and the blue fortress and how this can all flip and redefine for 2016. >> you look ahead and it is changing and donald trump made it change. he reached out the voters. he lost the expanding l electorate. the news that you bring out of
the michigan poll is the best news that hillary clinton's campaign will hear today. >> and it will be maybe hopeful? >> the day is still young and we have seen a lot of friday's surprises. our strategists and our peter hart and steven shales. >> thank you gentlemen. >> the security that its plan to protect election day. says it won't let up for a while. the cadillac xt5... what should we do? ...tailored to you. wait it out. equipped with apple carplay compatibility. ♪ now during season's best, get this low mileage lease on this cadillac xt5 from around $429 per month, or purchase with 0% apr financing.
i am totally blind. i lost my sight in afghanistan. if you're totally blind, you may also be struggling with non-24. calling 844-844-2424. or visit my24info.com. they're planning unprecedented security on this year's election. cynthia mcfadden. >> officials in the department of the homeland security, military and the intelligence community tell nbc news the u.s. government is gearing up for an unprecedented effort to protect
the country on election day. >> according to multiple intelligence sources, u.s. officials are deeply concerned about and preparing f some sort of cyber chaos next week. an attack on critical infrastructure including the u.s. power grid is one of three worse case concerned. >> so we have cynthia mcfadden, we should point out that there is no reus thomas hock the integrity of the vote itself. joining me is our executive director and an author of "defeating isis." malcolm, thank you for joining us. >> how probable is this? >> well, it is a question of who's the actor that would want to do that or paralyze the
united states. i have another book called "the plot to hack america." that was oriented to russian te intelligence. >> they can do that and slow down the united states. the fundamental vote will not be corrupted. that's calculated on a white board >> there is this chaos and the noise that goes around it and gets people undone. what does the cyber community and cyber security expert is being enhanced to make sure that this is plausible. v verified russian intelligence and their version of nsa and the department of homeland security and the director of national e
intelligence, all came together. almost all states and i believe 45 was the number of states have consulted with dhs which means national security agency is assisting as well and they are making secure that the computer switch actually tabulate the vote. >> the plot to do all of this. >> what security expert has to do to stay ahead of what could happen. that's what it is all about sfooch, we got to stay ahead of those of what cause the kay yochaos. we had this noise on the campaign trail saying that the russians may have something to do with it. you have to first believe that the enemy is out there and they're going to carry out some sort of a ferry's blood. if you don't believe that the russians have done this then you cannot make the offenses against the cyber weapon systems that they employ. that's what the states are doing
now. they believe that russia and other actors can come in and interfere with the electorate. to handle it or shut off if they are attack. >> that's the big game. >> malcolm stance, thank you. >> i want to give you an update of the pulse. >> are you worried that your vote maybe compromised? even though it cannot happen but fears are real. 60% say yes and 40% say no, check out www.pulse.msnbc.com. tonight, who'll take the stage in cleveland to rock the boat for hillary clinton. the man on your left, jay z, will be there. what about beyonce? say no that it is not going to be beyonce. >> stranger things have happened
before. one person cons to rally voters for clinton is her former boss, president obama in the final stretch before election day. i was working in the yard, my chest started hurting
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that he's almost done for his former secretary clinton this time in fayetteville, in north carolina. the clint the enthusiasm people have for president obama. here is the president in one of his two stops for clinton on thursday. >> if you are registered, you can vote right now. [ cheers ] there is early voting location just ten minutes away. >> our ron allen is in fayettevil fayetteville, the president is giving a lot of attention in north carolina. is he trying to do what can do for clinton what he could not do for himself. >> reporter: exactly, he lost in 2012 but he won in 2008. every vote counts. that's what the president have been saying there is numerous
stops here. he's going to be back in north carolina, durham, on monday. debra ross is up, warming up the crowd. the president should be here in a moment. some of the people here have been waiting since 5:00 a.m. this morning outside in the rain for the president to get here. that's how popular he is here. you are right, at this point, the early voting figure, the african-american turn out is lower and the enthusiasm gap is -- that plclip that you just played, president obama gave the address of the early voting place. that's how intense it is and where they need to be. the other issue here is intense voting rights battle, there are thousands of people waiting for a federal judge's decision. 70,000 people have been purged.
they want to vote on tuesday and they're waiting to get that right. that's the issue here. >> we'll see the president coming out there shortly. just a programming note for you. we'll have a one on one sit down interview with the president tonight. that'll air in with chris hayes on msnbc. blacks are indeed fired up. it is read wrong even if there is a slight difference between the early vote then and the early vote now. don't let that fool you. blacks are going to turn out on election day in north carolina.
i can absolutely convince you, i hope i can of what i know and understand about the black community. not only the black community respect hillary clinton but believe in hillary clinton but they got a second incentive and that's we cannot tolerate donald trump. he's dangerous and we know that we got to stop him, we know that this country cannot be led by him. he's demonstrated who he is. and not only is he dangerous he has burglarized this campaign in the way that he has not only limited himself to a certain constituent. >> mariana had a chance to speak with running mate tim kaine about what perceived to be this slow start. take a look. >> well, it certainly started
slow and a lot of states have done things since 2012 to make it harder to vote. we are worried about that. we are also seeing while the participation at some areas started a little slow, it is picking up. >> when we heard ronald talking about what's going on in north carolina with voting rights and a decision that's coming down. do you think in a larger scalp picture that the clinton's campaign have taken the black votes some what for grant it or is that a myth? >> that he is are remarks on the other side who's trying to convince black that they should not be so supportive. that kind of generalization does not play well with most blacks who understand the difference. democrats and republicans and certainly donald trump and hillary clinton. i would not pay any attention to that. the fact that the matter is, if blacks go to the polls, if there
are any attempts from keep them voting. they'll get the ballot that'll allow them to vote so that decisions can be made on them later. i am not worried about that at all. what i feel in my heart is that blacks are goi to vote and they're going to vote in large numbers and they're going to get out in the polls and hillary clinton is going to win this election. >> all right, congresswoman, i want to get you on the record with this. the leak of the fbi, it under mind the clinton's candidacy. >> i think the disappointment in the fbi director is profound. i think that he made a mistake that he interfered with this election and he caused us to have a little bit of a pause and a little bit of a drop off that we have not recuperated from that. the leaks that have gone out and division appears to be in the
fbi is unprecedented. nobody expected that you would have false information coming out of the fbi. rudy giuliani needs to be investigated also because he had a role in this. >> congresswoman, maxine waters, thanks for your time. >> you are so welcome. >> could she turn the tie in georgia? our new polls is showing the dead heat, our chris jansing is talking to the people at the polls, next. on this side of the road is virginia... and on this side it's tennessee. no matter which state in the country you live in, you could save hundreds on car insurance by switching to geico. look, i'm in virginia... i'm in tennessee... virginia... tennessee... and now i'm in virginessee. see how much you could save on car insurance. or am i in tennaginia? hmmm... [dance music playing]
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>> our nbc chris jansing is in georgia speaking to the man leading the soul to the polls effort. chris, what are they say happening this sunday? >> reporter: well, they got ambition and some one saying at the ebony church in atlanta, that's turning out 100% of its parishioners. that's about 4,000 votes. obviously, it makes a difference to hillary clinton who's looking up to black votes here in georgia. joining me now is our pastor here, rafael, you can get 100% of your people to show up. >> listen, welcome to georgia and witness the georgia miracles. i am a preacher, somebody has to bring in the water. these people behind me are bringing in the water, our congregation showed up in a powerful way over the last few weeks. >> yes.
this is ebeneezer's votes. i asked people who already voted to stand up on sunday and most of the congregation already voted. >> reporter: you think 90% so far? >> that's right, you are shaming the 10% that have been voting. >> i am shame lessly shaming people in the voting. it is that important. >> reporter: it is a one point race. what is it going to take in our mind for hillary clinton to pull it out which is what you want. >> we are in the margins of error. i think we can win, georgia is a blue state. we need people to believe and act on it. the signs so far are great. in 2012, we saw 1.6 million early voters. right now we are already at 2.1 million. we have not seen the full tally for today so i think the signs are good. we are seeing outstanding voter's registration and mobilization and education and
that's the recipe to turn georgia blue and that has broaden implications for our polls. >> reporter: they could make record here that would be extraordinary given the fact that in most of the country the clinton campaign said look, we do not expect to hit 2008 or 2012 record, we like to keep it close here. it maybe a different story whether enough to turn the state, we'll see. >> chris, thanks so much. looks to be a beautiful day in decatur, georgia. one last look at our pulse question. >> we have been asking you of concerned hackers from russia may try to under mine our election. are you worried that your vote is compromise. check out the www.pulse.msnbc.com. it is time for your business of entrepreneurs of the week.
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"access hollywood" video. jessica leeds told the times she was assigned the seat next to donald trump in first class on an airplane 35 years ago when donald trump was still flying on commercial airplanes. she said he politely introduced himself. but then after the meal was served and the trays were taken away, donald trump started putting his hands all over her and grabbing her. here is some of her video interview with "the new york times." >> if he had stuck with the upper part of the body, i might not have gotten -- i might not have gotten that upset. but it's when he started putting his hand up my skirt, and that was it. that was it. i -- i was out of there. >> the other woman in tonight's "new york times" report is rachel crooks, who is 22 years old in 2005 when she was working as a receptionist in a company
located in trump tower. here is how the times describes what happened the first time she saw donald trump in the building and introduced herself. they shook hands, but mr. trump would not let go, she said. instead he began kissing her cheeks. then he kissed me directly on the mouth. both women said that watching the presidential debate on sunday was infuriating, especially this moment. >> just for the record, though, you saying that what you said on that bus 11 years ago, that you did not actually kiss women without consent or grope women without consent? >> i great respect for women. nobody has more respect for women than i do. >> so for the record you're saying you never did that? >> frankly, you hear these things said. and i was embarrassed by it. but i have tremendous respect for women. >> have you ever done those things? >> and women have respect for me. and i will tell you, no, i have not. >> in a telephone interview with "the new york times," donald trump said none of this ever took place. shouting at the times reporter who was questioning him.
mar el lago in florida where she was working as a photographer's assistant. ray charles was performing. tasha dixon, a contestant in the 2001 miss teen, let me say that again, miss teen usa pageant said this today about donald trump. >> he just came strolling right in. there was no second to put a robe on or any sort of clothing or something. some girls were topless. other girls were naked. to have the owner come waltzing in when we're naked or half naked in a very physically vulnerable position, and then to have the pressure of the people that work for him telling us to go fawn all over him. >> and tonight robert costa is reporting from "washington post" that donald trump intends to make good on his threat to "the new york times." he says that donald trump's lawyers are drafting a lawsuit against "the new york times" that could be announced at any moment. and nancy giles, a lawsuit that
still sort of seems like a he said-she said in a way. but these women did tell people contemporaneously what happened. we also have a pattern of behavior from trump that is pretty clear. the thing about these october surprise series that they're not surprising at all. >> right. donald trump issued a statement tonight in which he said the campaign anyway said to reach back decades -- this, by the way, please listen to every word of this. this is so ironic in light of what the trump campaign has been up to. to reach back decades in an attempt to smear mr. trump trivialized sexual assault. and it sets a new low for where the media is willing to go in its efforts to determine this election. maria teresa, that's the guy who reached back decades sunday night to invite women from decades ago in bill clinton's life to the debate. tonight the trump campaign says you must never, ever reach back decades. >> well, and he did it purposely
to intimidate and humiliate his opponent in the most grossest of ways. because she could not control what happened 30 years ago that had nothing to do with her but her husband. that's what is absolutely obscene. but what donald trump has, his hardest part is actually taking ownership of when he does something wrong. the fact that we have types of him, decades long tapes of him going on howard stern, degrading women constantly, even making fun of how he actually can interact with his own daughter can make us feel uncomfortable. this is a pattern. this is who he is. if americans want to vote for him, let's be clear. this is the person who he there. is no plan b and there is no other donald trump. this is the person that we are seeing every single day. and most recently, lawrence, i think you saw he was at a pennsylvania rally, and he said look, you know that i'm a snake. you voted me in. you nominated me. so he knows who he is. and now he realizes that it's women who are going to get him to the white house. i said this before. it's going to be ironic that now
we have muslim american military family that is going bring him down. we have a latina beauty queen that is going to bring him down and women are going to bring him down. >> i want to read another piece of the statement because it is just breathtaking. he says it is absurd to think that one of the most recognizable business leaders on the planet with a strong record of empowering women in his companies would do the things alleged in this story. and nancy giles, this is the campaign that firmly believes catherine willie's story about bill clinton in the white house when he was rather recognizable as president of the united states. >> oh, yeah. >> if you're going with the unrecognizable guy won't do this theory, how do you explain what they're saying about bill clinton every day? >> you don't. because it doesn't make sense and it doesn't follow any kind of logic. i guess roger ailes could say the same thing about his network where he employees a lot of women and he is also -- you know, it brings up a couple of things for me. and i want to echo something maria teresa said.
and that's how gross it is he tries to conflate his action was bill clinton's. i am in no way condoning anything bill clinton did. but hillary is the candidate. and there is something kind of sexist about him kind of bypassing her and going to bill as if there is anything going there that can balance his reckless actions. anybody that watches "law & order" knows that if you're a defense attorney, you're going to defend even people that have done horrible things. so what is he trying to say about hillary? he's got nothing to say about her, and any kind of actions she might have done that are equating to what he did. >> everyone should be reading this "new york times" piece tonight or tomorrow. but i want to read one passage of it. because it takes you into the life of someone who has this kind of thing happen to them. this is rachel crooks. and it's her boyfriend at the time who is describing what he came home to that night. he said i asked how was your day, mr. hackenberg recalled. she paused for a second and then
started hysterically crying. after ms. crooks described her experience with mr. trump, she and mr. hackenberg discussed what to do. i think that what was more upsetting than him kissing her is she felt she couldn't do anything to him because of his position, he said. she was 22. she was a secretary. it was her first job out of college. i remember her saying i can't do anything to this guy because he's donald trump. and anna marie, that is one of the looks inside one of these horrible stories. >> i mean, i don't know where to begin. you brought me back, quite honestly. i mean, i have to say, i am very concerned for a lot of women out there. because i was brought back by that statement by something that happened to me when i was a young woman. i would be so shocked if the other two women you're speaking to haven't had something similar happen to them. something like that happened to me when i was young and i couldn't do anything about it. that is what happens to women. that is why this is so
preposterous that if donald trump wants to go to war on this, this is such a different animal than what happened with bill clinton. for one thing, as we are saying, bill clinton is not running for office. for the other thing, donald trump is a predator. he is a predator who thinks that his so-called celebrity can allow him to do anything. there are women that want to show that's not possible there are women that want to say, no it doesn't allow you to do anything, and i'm going to show you by voting against you. >> what -- >> i just want to follow up one thing with anna marie, and then i'll come to you. i want to hear you all on this particular point that i'm about to ask. i want to go, anna marie, to this perception that mr. hackenberg, that her boyfriend had at the time. it was his perception in the passage i just read that he felt that she was more upset, more upset by the feeling of powerlessness after the fact than the actual moment in his company. >> i think that describes
perfectly what happens for woman when this happens. in the moment, you actually have some physical agency unless it's somebody a lot bigger than you, which does happen. but you can kind of turn away run away. it's afterwards when you realize you can't do anything about it and if it happens again you also can't do anything about it. this is toxic. this is completely toxic for trump's campaign. he will not recover from this. >> maria teresa, please go ahead. >> this is the silver lining. people across the country are having these conversations with their husbands, with their spourks with their sons. these are the limitation. this is when you have to have consent. this is the only thing i think will actually bring to the top how pervasive this is in our culture, and the fact that no one is going to be getting away with it is i think fantastic. i have to applaud the athletes. the athletes have come out and said this is not wanter in the locker room. this is not acceptable. you actually see men coming forward and saying we have to stop this and making sure that women feel safe in their own
agency. >> i have appreciated that so much, hearing the athletes saying what we talk about in the locker rooms are stocks and bonds. >> right. >> what the traffic was like on the way to work. and i also have to say how much i really hate that part of what is being said by his campaign is these aren't matters that interest women. this isn't what is important. women want jobs. yeah, they want jobs, but they want to feel safe in the workplace. they want equal pay, and they don't want to feel like someone in authority can bully them or sexual assault or harass them. so this is one of the most important things i think, one of the most important issues facing this country and facing the world, frankly. so i'm glad that it's getting out there and getting some steam. >> we have a lot of video to get to tonight, and a lot of ground to cover. so we're going to have to go to a break in a moment. i just want to -- nancy has made the point that on howard stern, donald trump, and we don't have the time to play this right now. we're going to play it later in the show. donald trump bragged about the fact that he owns the beauty pageants and the teenage girl beauty pageants allows him to
walk into the dressing room whenever he wants, to and he picks the time to walk in there that is most exploitive. and ana marie, we have that on video. that's another donald trump confession on video that he is joking about with howard stern, that he never thought was going to come back to him in his life. but there is the confession already on video for what he is accused of tonight. >> yeah, there it is. this is a pattern for him not just in the way he talks about women, but the way he talks about almost everyone. i know you have been very observant about this. probably the other women on this panel have been observant. he exploits whoever he can when he can. he thinks less of people who are not as powerful as him. that means women, minorities, people who are disabled. he manipulates and controls whoever he can. and he thinks he can get away with it. i think the stern stuff is just another sign of him thinking he get away with it. he was so open with stern because he thought it didn't matter. he thought his power and his celebrity and his money would
allow him to say whatever he wanted. >> go ahead, maria. >> he also -- and it's not just women and minorities and people of color. it's also small businessmen. >> right. >> anybody he feels that he can trample with and basically get away with it. there was a piece where a man who sold him $100,000 worth of pianos and came back and said sorry, i'm just going to give you 70,000. the idea that he is above the law. he understands tax code enough to write these things off is really -- it's not only unappealing. wait a second, you have learned how to play the system so well that you feel you don't have to be accountable to anybody. i think that this 18-month cathartic exercise we've been doing with donald trump is actually very good. because we actually now can have conversations on when people talk about white male privilege, he is the epitome of that. nobody else would be able to get away with what he is doing. >> hillary clinton is taking the stage in las vegas. we will go to her as she gets into that speech. but i just want the make the
point, nancy, that donald trump has always thought this is funny. that's what you see on the tape with billy bush. it's funny. he thought it was funny with howard stern. >> and it's not funny. to echo what ana marie just said, not only it is not funny, but it's rude. it's disgusting. and he has gotten away with it. that's the thing. he continues to get away with it. so i think it encourages him to exhibit the same behavior as he gets way with it again and again and again. and it is not locker room talk. as if even if it was just talk, it wasn't a painful, horrible thing to lobby at someone. but locker rooms across the country have said nah-ah, we don't talk about that. >> i was in a lot of sports. i have never heard anybody, and i know a bunch of crude guys. and i have never heard anybody brag about sexual assault, ever, nothing like what that guy was talking about on that bus.
and the -- rush limbaugh today discovered that the problem -- and he really did discover this today. he said the problem is consent. ana marie, he said the only thing liberals care about in terms of sexual behavior is consent, that liberals are okay with everything else, as long as it's consenting adults. and rush limbaugh didn't realize that yes, that is correct that is precisely the position. as rush is thinking there are all these other things that should be condemned like homosexuality and all these other things, the only things they seem to care about is sent. >> and he was offended. i. >> i think and there is a silver lining here. i remember i actually heard rush
limbaugh say that live. i happened to be somewhere where he was on. he did say this in this astonished voice. another person could read that same statement much as you did and it's a statement. whereas he was shocked by it. >> it's really stunning. nancy giles, maria teresa kumar and ana marie cox, thank you all for joining us. i appreciate it. >> thank you, lawrence. >> we're going to continue monitor hillary clinton at that speech in las vegas, and continue with more of our guests joining us. i think he is a very dangerous man for the next three or four weeks. those interest words of the reporter who has been covering donald trump longer than anyone else. wayne barrett was the first reporter to take on the myth of donald trump in "the village voice" way back in the 1970s. donald trump tried to stop wayne barrett every way he could think of, including trying to bribe him and threaten him. but wayne barrett stayed on the trump beat and paved the way for so much of the investigative journalism that has been done on
donald trump since then. we're joined now exclusively by wayne barrett, the author of "trump: the greatest show on earth, the deals, the down fall, the reinvention." also joining us david corn and msnbc political analyst. wayne, i've been wanting to talk to you about this for a long time. and just the simple question. as donald trump said or done anything in the last year of this campaign that has surprised you? >> grabbing the pussy surprised me. even those words come out of his mouth. and i was a little stunned by that, lawrence. it's great to be here with you. certainly the stories of today do not surprise me. this ability to roam the earth looking for someone to grab is not surprising at all, but saying i grabbed them by the pussy, that surprised me.
>> and wayne, you knew him and were covering him before his big rise to fame, and certainly before he had his own tv show. do you sense that giving donald trump his own tv show, that was a kind of heroin for him, that it took all of his worst traits and amplified them? >> yes. i think his worst trait obviously he objectifies women. but what he really has done is objectify himself. that's why he talks about himself like trump. trump did this, trump did that. the process of objectifying yourself is totally connected to the camera. because that's his -- that's his lifeline. and i really think that one of the reasons he tweets at 3:00 a.m. is because there is no camera around to talk to. so the camera has become -- the camera has become his lifeline.
and he has turned himself into an object, which is basically the great story of his life. d it's -- it's as if he is so disconnected from human emotion other than anger, he is so disconnected from human any form, including the children. i mean "art of the deal" he mentions them once in his first memoir. tony schwartz who wrote it said they were never around and he never talked about them and never interacted with them. of course they didn't live with them. ivanka was 8 when they moved out. and yet he gets great credit for raising these kids. but they haven't been close to until they could make money in his company. and so i think that the disconnect between him and the
life most of us live is really profound and deep. >> and i want to bring david corn in for a second. david, i just wanted to read a report from bloomberg today that says bannon, steve bannon told trump staffers according to advisers who are present, this has nothing to do with consensual sexual affairs and infidelity. this is bill clinton. we're going turn bill clinton into bill cosby, meaning that's why they're not using any of the women who were allegedly involved in consensual affairs with bill clinton. they are simply using the ones who say that bill clinton behaved with them the way donald trump admits to behaving on that "access hollywood" video. >> you know, i was talking to some trump people over the weekend before the new allegations emerged. and we were just talking about the video. and they said trump has only one play, to go nuclear.
and the interesting thing to me is the only nuclear play that they saw was attacking bill clinton for behavior from 20, 30, 40 years ago that had been reported, litigated, that, you know, only marginally is connected to anything you can say about hillary clinton when you had to know, this is not a surprise that donald trump was as vulnerable or somewhat is vulnerable on this front. even before these women came out. there have been already cases that had been published in the guardian, the "new york times" and elsewhere where these allegations against donald trump. and i think wayne makes a great point about trump objectifying himself. trump is a commodity. he is a brand. he is not a human being in a lot of ways it seems. and that's how he has been selling himself. and he seems oblivious to anything that goes on in the world outside of his own concern with his own brand, his own
commoditification. and therefore i could easily see him running to wage the very type of attack that he would be vulnerable. to one last point. i wrote a story a couple of months ago that he -- that people around him in the start of his campaign wanted to have a vetting of him. have opposition research conducted on trump, which is kind of common for most national campaigns. he said no. now we know why. >> wayne, i have to say, you know -- sorry. we're going go live to hillary clinton now, her speech. >> well, he has doubled down. he doubled down on his excuse that it's just locker room talk, and i got to tell you, after he said that in the last debate, the most amazing thing happened. athletes and coaches started speaking out. from the nba, from major league
baseball, from the nfl. they're coming forward and saying hey, not in our locker rooms. that's not what happens. but he is not just insulted women. he is an equal opportunity insulter. he has insulted everybody. he insulted a distinguished federal judge who was born in indiana, and he said well, he couldn't be trusted to be a judge because his parents came from mexico. he has targeted immigrants, african americans, latinos, people with disabilities. he has targeted p.o.w.s and muslims. he has also targeted our military. he has called our military a disaster. now how can you be the commander in chief if you don't respect the men and women who serve in the united states military? i think he has shown us who he is.
now the question for all of us is who we are, right? what are we going to do to show -- >> i want to go back to wayne barrett as hillary clinton continues her speech there in las vegas. wayne, a point i wanted to make is i had consistently predicted that donald trump would not run for president. and i was right every time, except the last time. and the reason i was saying that is that i had been reading your reporting of back i guess when i just got out of high school. and all the reporting about donald trump in the meantime. and i saw what was there. and just your reporting alone is an opposition file unlike we've ever seen on a presidential candidate. and i just -- i know donald trump knows that it's out there. i just couldn't imagine him leaping into this. were you surprised that he decided to run for president finally? >> yes, i was. but keep in mind even when this video emerged, part of the trump defense has been well, he wasn't
running for president. >> yeah, yeah. >> and so he said and did reckless things. in fact, he ran for president for four months in 2000. roger stone ran that campaign. he tried to get the reform party line. he pulled out. and as i wrote in the book in 1988, he was flirting with it. he referred to marla as his southern strategy. he didn't think ivana would be presentable in a national campaign. and he thought that marla maples could help him carry the south. patiently he doesn't need marla to carry the south now. race will do it for him. but he has been talking about this, thinking about this. roger stone, who has been with him for 30 some years the night he was nominated, posted that this was a celebration of over 30 years of work together. and so they've been thinking
about this. and yet he would still behave while he was considering being a presidential candidate most of his adult life, he would still behave in this totally reckless way. >> wayne barrett, thank you very much for joining us tonight. i really appreciate it. really appreciate your perspective on donald trump. and david corn, thank you for joining us also. >> sure. >> really appreciate it. we're going to stay monitoring hillary clinton's speech. i think we're going to squeeze in a break here. and we'll be right back. ces in y life. so when my asthma symptoms kept coming back on my long-term control medicine. i talked to my doctor and found a missing piece in my asthma treatment with breo. once-daily breo prevents asthma symptoms. breo is for adults with asthma not well controlled on a long-term asthmcontrol medicine, like an inhaled corticosteroid. breo won't replace a rese inhaler for sudden breathing problems. breo opens up airways to help improve breathing for a full 24 hours. breo contains a type of medicine that increases the risk of death from asthma problems and may increase the risk of hospitalization in children and adolescents. breo is not for people whose
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we're continuing to monitor hillary clinton's speech in las vegas. these are her first public remarks since the new allegations have come up tonight against donald trump. the behavior that donald trump admitted to on the "access hollywood" video that appeared on friday is tonight being corroborated by several home with have come forward today to say that he did indeed touch them and kiss them without their consent. let's take a look at what donald trump admitted to in that "access hollywood" video. >> use tic tacs in case i start kissing her. i'm automatically attracted to beautiful. i just start kissing them. it's like a magnet. you just kiss. and when you're a star, they let you do it. you can do anything. >> whatever you want. >> grab them by the [ bleep ]. do anything.
>> joining us now, michael steele, former chairman of the republican national committee and an msnbc analyst. also with us tim miller, a member of the never trump movement and a former communications director for jeb bush's 2016 campaign. gentlemen, i'd like to listen to what is now a more relevant tape than it was even yesterday. and that is we're going to hear donald trump with howard stern admitting that he does indeed when he owned those beauty pageants and the teenaged beauty pageants, he would indeed walk in deliberately on the girls when he knew they were undressed. let's listen to this. >> well, i'll tell you the funniest is that i'll go backstage before a show and everyone is getting dressed and ready and everywhere else. and you know, no men are anywhere. i'm allowed to go because i'm the own over the pageant. i'm inspecting it. is everyone okay? they're standing there with no clothes. is everybody okay? and you see these incredible
looking women. and so i sort of get away with things like that. >> michael steele, it's only october 12th. >> yeah. >> which means we don't yet know what the october 13th surprises are or the 14th or the 15th. >> yeah. no, there is clearly a lot more to come. there as you noted earlier, lawrence, a long history here that has been reported on. and now in light of these new accusations as well as what we got from last friday, i think this funnel opens up. and it's a huge, huge problem for the party. it is a huge problem for the campaign. there is no walking around this gingerly. there is no putting a good face on it. this has been dealt with, confronted directly. and i don't know how this party or the campaign does that. >> i just want to play something john boehner said earlier this evening where he basically was
on fox news saying he didn't see how this could get worse. let's listen to this. >> what more could be said? in this election cycle than has already been said? >> so you seem to think that we kind of already know what donald trump is all about, and that nothing further could come out that would make any difference? >> it can't be any worse, could it? >> well, that's a good question. what do you think? >> i don't think so. >> and tim miller, that was minutes before "the new york times" posted this story tonight of these two women coming forward saying yes, he did to us what he says he did on that "access hollywood" video. >> i love speaker boehner, but this line of thinking was way, way too common within the party. and donald trump told us all we needed to know last year. the very first question of the very first debate was megyn kelly to donald trump going through all of the nasty,
demeaning, harsh, cruel comments he had said about women over the course of his life. and obviously worse and lower comments have come to light since then. but we knew that. and a lot of washington leaders, including speaker boehner unfortunately said oh, ted cruz is the devil. he can't be that much worse than ted cruz. now we're stuck with this guy. and it's a major, major problem for our party. and it's going to be something we have to rebuild from for years to come. >> gentlemen, if you can bear with me, we want to try to fix our break structure here. so we're going work in a quick break here. we went quite a distance without a commercial earlier. a quick break here. we're going to continue to monitor hillary clinton's speech in las vegas. we will come back to that if she responds to in any way to the news about donald trump tonight. we'll be back with michael steele and a tim miller after this break. mom,
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tonight, this time from "people" magazine. "people" magazine has a report on a december 2005 incident involving a "people" magazine writer natasha stoinoff. she is driving what it was like for her when she was working on a story in 2005 that brought her to mar el lago and donald trump. there came a moment where she found herself alone in a room with donald trump. "people" magazine carries this account from natasha stoinoff breaking what happened. she said we walked into that room alone and trump shut the front door behind us. i turned around and within seconds he was pushing me against the wall and forcing his tongue down my throat. i was stunned and i was grateful when trump's long-time butler burst into the room a minute
later as i tried to unpin myself. the butler informed us that melania would be down momentarily. and it was time to resume the interview. we're back now with maria teresa kumar who has rejoinedteresa, w the october 12th surprises continue almost by the minute. here is "people" magazine, obviously this has been a legally vetted, carefully legally vetted report. they would not publish it without that. reporting that this reporter alone with donald trump at mar el lago with melania his wife upstairs, and donald trump shut the door behind us. i turned around, and within seconds he was pushing me against the wall and forcing his tongue down my throat. that is precisely what he said
to billy bush was his modus operandi. >> it's what he tried to do with the woman on the airplane and the receptionist. this is clearly a pattern. but your just reading that statement, lawrence was gut-wrenching. i can't imagine any viewer right now not even in tears or feeling uncomfortable. he is taking us to a very dark place. and the fact that these women are sharing their bravery with us of sexual assault, i have to applaud them. because it's something that cannot be easy. and it's finally giving voice to so many people out there that feel that they have been alone for so long. and i feel that this is we're on october 12. but not only is this a pattern, but i can expect more. and hopefully things that are not more ruthless on his ability to prey on women. >> and i just want to read another passage in this. it's a long report. i just want to stress, this is
"people" magazine. that means this has been vetted by very high powered corporate lawyers who know exactly where the libel laws protect them and where they don't. they are lawyers completely unwilling to take the slightest risk with this kind of report. she says that an hour later, i was back at my hotel. my shock began to wear off and was replaced by anger. i kept thinking why didn't i slug him? >> ana marie was saying the same things. when women get into places where they're vulnerable, you end up feeling that you did something wrong. and that is precisely what a predator wants you to do. that's about what someone that basically practices sexual assault wants you to do. but again, i cannot put my arms around any republican that can possibly stand by his side. this is not leadership if they continue feeding this monster
and saying he is okay and fit to be president. the fact that he preys on the most vulnerable, that he encounters, you can only imagine what he would do not only to the rest of the country, but now the world. there was -- j.r.rowling said a tweety she did want his hand on the nuclear weapons and someone said but you're not an american. >> but i'm the world. a country which is incredibly diverse, which thrives on entrepreneurship and thought and differences. >> a loug someone who has clearly shown his stripes to us from the very beginning to come in and try to basically distort and destroy our balance of power. he has been a ruthless going more recently as you mentioned earlier, threatening "the new york times" for suing him on a story that is clearly increasingly validated, being a predator towards women. the fact that he went after a
federal judge saying that once he is in office, he would basically strip him from his judgeship, and going after hillary clinton saying if he wins that she is basically going to be put in prison for a political opponent. this is not america. this is much more closely tactics that you see in russia. and something of a dictator such as putin that many folks in russia would agree than something that is done by a person running a country that has checks and balances, that has a judicial branch, that has a congressional branch, and that has the oval office. >> and anna ma marie, there is here about this reporter's reaction to this natasha stoinov is her name. and i just wanted to read some of it. it's too difficult to read some of it. she said why didn't i slug him. why couldn't i say anything? the next morning anger became fear. i had been up all night worrying about this.
and ana marie cox, the pain that's being expressed in the aftermath of these incidents is so deep. and it's hard to read. oh, we don't have ana marie cox. nancy giles here with news the studio. this is the part where you've seen me trying to read this. it isn't easy. >> it's awful, it's awful. as woman who has grown up in new york and has lived through kind of rude things that guys can sometimes say in the street, construction workers, being on a packed subway and feeling somebody pressing up against you, they're bad enough. what these women are describing is just god awful. and, you know, i can only repeat and agree with what the other two women on the panel have said. it almost doesn't seem like america. you wonder how somebody that started his campaign with such horrible things said about mexicans and the accusations, the claims that all black people are dodging bullets and living
in hell and taking a judge, with his own ego and his own remarks kind of coming back to choke him, it's almost shakespearean because his ego in the end and his need to be on tv and on the radio and throughout and publicized, and a big important person, those are the exact words that are going to come back. and actions i think will haunt him. >> we're to be take a break. we're waiting for donald trump's threat to sue "people" magazine over this report. he has already threatened to sue "the new york times." "the times" article, the "people" article, those articles are vetted by the very best lawyers that exist in this country. the likelihood of there being an opening for a libel suit against either one of these articles is very unlikely. we'll be right back.
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statement from an unnamed spokesperson of the trump campaign saying, quote, this never happened. there is no merit or veracity to this fictional story. why wasn't this reported at the time? mr. trump was the biggest star on television, and surely this would have been a far bigger scoop for "people" magazine. she alleges this took place in a public space with people around. this is nothing but politically motivated pile-on fiction. of course there is a lie in the trump statement. she does not say it took place in a public place. she specifically describes the door being closed. and no spokesperson at the trump campaign has any authoritative capacity to say, nancy giles, this never happened. >> how do you know? you weren't there. you know what i think has really brought it out is there he was at the debate, asked specifically about this. and at the debate, with millions of people watching on
television, he said he never did it. and i think for anyone who was in a situation where he did grab or grope or anything like that, it must have been like a slap in the face. like the whole thing being experienced again. and i think that's why you're going to have more and more people coming out saying this happened to me. >> tim miller still with us, republican campaign professional. tim, is there anything they won't do for money over there at trump tower? is there anyone on that payroll of the trump campaign that when they read a story like this refuses to say this never happened? is there anyone there who knows none of them have the moral authority to make that statement? >> no. look, with the exception of one or two people, all these folks were hired after the convention this summer. kellyanne conway is the third campaign manager. she saw all of the op about donald trump over the last year. she saw all the nasty comments he made about women. she saw all the nasty comments he made about the disableded and hispanics and veterans.
all of these people are completely, you know, in league with him and enabling him. so now they're going to have to spend the next 27 days either in hiding or continuing to put out statements like the one that you just read that lies and defends him. i don't understand what they get out of it at this point. >> michael steele, i guess there is just a template over there for this never happened press release to put out for whatever the next accusation is that comes out. >> well, yeah. they're kind of used to it by now. kind of roll it off the desk and put it out there. you know, that statement i suspect probably came probably from trump himself to say it, even though it was anonymously given. that's how they can say that. but the fact of the matter is this is just the beginning of the floodgates. you put it i think very aptly, lawrence. you know, what is tomorrow, the 13th going to offer us?
what is going to be the surprise on the 14th? this is not a good space for anybody in the country. it's particularly the party in this campaign. someone is going to have to put an end to it. and the only person who can do that is donald trump. >> and david corn, any other women out there who had been thinking about maybe telling their stories when they see other women coming out, that can only be possibly an encouragement or possibly give them the sensation that, well, at least they're not alone if they do tell this story? >> every reporter who has worked on the trump beat the last year has gotten tips and leads about women and this sort of treatment. it's not a secret. and as we've seen in the bill cosby case, the once people start coming forward, there tends to be more, not less of that. but i got to say for all those republicans out there, anybody who may be surprised, this guy for years has shown his
misogynistic, racist, bullying, bigoted side. so a person like that engaging in this sort of behavior really comes as nothing other than in keeping with everything we know about him for years. and so all those conservatives who are still on the trump train and the people in congress, you guys knew. you gals knew. and there is absolutely no excuse. i salute people like tim miller. i disagree with him on almost everything else for knowing that character counts and you can see what type of guy trump was from a mile away. >> maria teresa, let me get a quick last word from you on this. >> i think it's exactly what david corn is saying. how can we as americans actually stand by and allow this person basically a free pass? every single woman that is coming out, if you notice, it's the exact same pattern. and my hope is that those women keep coming out and that they're brave and they keep having these conversations. but also we recently did a -- posted something on voto latino
donald trump just wrapped up his rally in vegas. sunlen serfaty is there. joining me now, donald trump did seize on the investigation but what else? >> reporter: that's right. he did, fred. it seems as if donald trump is campaigning with a new spring in his step and capitalizing on the e-mail server scandal. he's been relentless and today is no exception. he almost joked to this crowd, i never thought we'd be thanking anthony weiner nine days out. here's what he had to say. >> her cell action was willful, deliberate, intentional and purposeful. hillary set up an illegal server for the obvious purpose of
shielding her criminal conduct from public disclosure and exposure. she set up this illegal server knowing full well that her actions put our national security at risk and put the safety and security of your children at risk. >> now, trump campaign officials feel this is an opening that they've been given in this final nine days. also, something else from donald trump, going after obamacare premiums, raising -- potentially going up next week, that's something he's been talking about on the campaign trail and will continue to stay on the offensive according to trump campaign officials. they are looking at battleground polls that are tightening and midweek they may see a tick-up in the polls. they certainly have that anticipation and that hope, fred. >> sunlen serfaty, thank you so much.
so as the clinton campaign continues to demand more information from the fbi about their review of the e-mails, they are also acknowledging that this scandal would have never happened had clinton not used her private e-mail server. cnn's jake tapper spoke with clinton campaign manager john podesta on "state of the union". >> do you accept the premise that the reason we're here that hillary clinton and her inner circle, not including you, made a horrible decision to set up her private e-mail server and everything that's happened since then is her fault? >> look, i think she's apologized for setting up a private e-mail server, said it was a mistake and she wouldn't do it over again. it's very clear that this has been an issue through the course of this campaign. i think she obviously would like to take that decision back. but she's learned from it. and i think what's important about this campaign at this stage, with nine days to go, is
who is fit to be president, who has the experience and the question of whether donald trump is too dangerous, too tempermently unfit to be president of the united states. so that's what we're going to close off and we're going to talk about the future she wants to build in building an economy that works for everyone, not just people at the top. >> i always hear the clinton team say that she's learned from it. what has she learned? >> as she's said many times, she wouldn't do it over again. it's the kind of decision that i think needed more thought, more review and i think she regrets that and i think it's regrettable and you learn and move on. again, i think in contrast to her opponent who never seems to
learn from his mistakes and keeps repeating them and doubling down on them. >> one of the things that's interesting and one of the things that democrats in washington, d.c., are debating is whether or not hillary clinton has actually learned from this experience when it comes to people in her circle. i'm not necessarily including you in that group but people who are more of a new guard even if you have a long-standing relationship with the clintons, were stunned when word of the private e-mail server was first reported in march of 2015, according to the stolen e-mails published by wikileaks and i know you say this is the russians and -- >> it's not me saying it. it's a lot of people saying it, including the government. >> okay. intelligence professionals say that. be that as it may you wrote, "did you have any idea of the depth of this story?"
a clinton ally co-chairing your transition "why didn't they get this stuff out like 18 months ago so crazy." you responded "unbelievable." "i guess i know the answer they wanted to get away with it." july 25th, "do we know who told hillary she could use a private e-mail and has that person been drawn and quartered?" you're acting like the server was a simple mistake but you knew this was going to be a big problem. >> it's easy with 20/20 hindsight. if someone had taken the steps and looked at it, if one would have definitely made a difference decision but it happened. i think it was at the beginning it was just done for convenience, but at the end of the day, it was a major problem i think as i told you, i think she's learned from it. i've worked with her closely in this campaign. she takes hard advice, she respects people who will get up in her face and i think that the reason that i've kind of survived through the whole campaign is because that's the
kind of person i am. >> you certainly are. has anyone in the government provided you with the status report, john, on the investigation into your hacked and stolen e-mails? >> no. i've talked to the fbi at the beginning of this, and my attorney has been in touch with them. it's part of the investigation of the russian hacks, but the scope of it, who knew what when, the fact that the trump campaign seems to have been in contact with julian assange from wikileaks quite early at least as early as august, i don't know what their investigation is finding. >> you're referring to roger stone saying -- >> trump confidant, let me correct myself. >> okay.
>> a trump confidant roger stone, who, you know, bragged about being in touch with julian assange and talked about the fact that they were going to come after me was, he did that back in august. so what the government has learned about the interactions between assange and the russians, it seems clear that the russians were the ones who did the initial hack, how they got to wikileaks, what the relationship was with roger stone, i don't know. i assume the government is looking at that but i don't know anything more. maybe jim comey, if he thinks it's important, will let us know and come out in the next nine days. >> all right. john podesta this morning. we'll talk with our panel about this right after a quick break. when i started designing a bronx tale: the musical, i came up... ...with this idea of four towers that were fire escapes... ...essentially. i'll build a little model in photoshop and add these... ...details in with a pen. i could never do that with a mac. i feel like my job is... ...to put out there just enough detail to spur the audiences...
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all right. you just heard john podesta respond to the fbi investigation. let's talk about this with our panel, historian and professor, julian and david who is a cnn political commentator. also with "the washington post." good to see you. david, let me begin with you. podesta paints this as nuance. he thinks huma abedin truly did believe she had handed over everything. so even in your newspaper today it's reported that beabedin did not use her husband's computer very much. so how is it that clinton e-mails may be in that device? >> i think what we know now is what director comey said. he issued this vague letter on friday which does have the clinton camp up in arms and you can certainly sympathize with hillary clinton and her surrogates saying that this was vague and, you know, overblew
the investigation but at the same time, fredricka, you know, fbi director comey did say he would update congress on any new developments in the investigation and this might be a very small development but it's a development nonetheless. >> julian, previously the clinton campaign largely avoided talking about the e-mail scandal in rallies and in press conferences today. clinton didn't address it directly when she was in florida but the camp did release this explainer video. so is it enough? >> well, she's going to have to be out there talking about what is going on. they are talking about her and podesta until that interview on raising questions about comey and about the entire process. but you can't let that consume everything she does. it's important that hillary clinton also keeps talking about
her agenda and, frankly, her attacks on donald trump. otherwise, if she's just talking about the e-mail story, it will be all anybody hears about. >> so david, you're alluding to this, that it's a promise that comey made that he wanted to keep everyone abreast. he didn't want to be in the middle of this necessary but through his transparency, he is. so could he or should he have anticipated that this would result just a few days before election day? >> yeah, i think it was foreseeable when he sent that letter to control that it would throw the election into a little bit of a scurry in these last nine days. in the last two weeks, fredricka, donald trump has been closing on clinton in the polls prior to this information coming to light. our own washington post poll this weekend shows it's a two-point race nationally and it's tight in several of the key swing states.
what it's doing is not necessarily changing the entire dynamic of the race. again, we don't know what is in these e-mails or what was on this laptop or device that was recovered from huma abedin or anthony weiner. we know it's making it difficult for hillary clinton to make her closing argument in the last week of this race, which is what she was starting to settle in and do. she came out of the debates sort of the winner of those three debates, certainly the debates were trying to knock down a narrow polling lead and now she's got to defend this and it's frustrating her aides, including john podesta. >> the relationship between huma abedin and hillary clinton, very, very tight. huma has been working for hillary clinton since she was an intern in 1996. so now you've got this scandal potentially and the relationship with anthony weiner and that investigation. so might this mean a prelude to a split between a clinton and
huma abedin in the midst of all of this? >> it sure could. and even if this doesn't have a detrimental effect on the election for her, i think both with this particular situation but all of her advisers, it raises a question we've heard about hillary clinton. if she always surrounds herself with the best advice and surrounds herself with the best people and so i think this is clearly going to be a case where there's serious consideration, you would imagine, to severing this relationship after this is done. >> all right. so much more ahead, david, julian. stick around. we have a lot more to tackle. the fbi is under pressure to give more details about its review of this e-mail involving a clinton top aide, huma abedin. so coming up, you'll hear from a republican lawmaker who has spoken to director james comey about the inquest. so find out what comey and lawmakers actually know about huma abedin's e-mails. that i .
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are coming, and california will suffer budget deficits all over again. so vote yes on 55. because it helps our children thrive. all right. the pressure is on. fbi director james comey to release more details about the bureau's review of e-mails possibly linked to hillary clinton. definitely related to huma
abedin. the e-mails were discovered on a computer that anthony weiner shared with his wife. robert goodlay told abc's "this week" that he encouraged comey to give the american people as much information as possible about the discovered e-mails before the election. >> you mentioned classified information. how do you or mr. comey know that there's classified information involved here if you haven't seen the e-mails? >> well, we don't know. and we don't know what the basis was for mr. comey making the decision to further pursue the case. we don't know whether that's informants, whether they've had access to looking some of this information, we don't know what the basis was. we do know they know something is there. >> cnn investigations correspondent chris frates joining me live now from washington. chris, tell us more about what goodlay had to say. >> so far, it seems that comey is not telling lawmakers much
more than what he's saying publicly. look, at this point, it's nothing. here's how he described his conversation with fbi director comey. >> did mr. comey tell you he would be coming forward with more information? >> he did not. his answer was with regard to a number of questions i asked him that he was not going to answer those questions at this point, meaning the conversation i had with him and mr. conyers. but with regard to mr. comey making a mistake, i think that he is very conscious of the controversy that's existed in the fbi. >> so despite the call by both democrats and republicans for comey to release more information, the fbi director is really not budging here. that's largely because he doesn't even know yet what's in those e-mails. >> and so chris, how odd is that, that director comey would not know what was in the e-mails but would construct a letter to
"the hill"? >> there's a reason for that. the fbi doesn't have permission to go through those e-mails yet. they are trying to get their approval. the government needs a new warrant because it only covers the investigation into abedin's estranged husband, anthony weiner. they need to get a new warrant for these newly discovered e-mails. right now, they only have a warrant to investigate anthony weiner. it's unlikely we'll have any answers to the big question here, which is, what is actually in these e-mails, until after the election, fred. >> chris frates, thanks so much in washington. and we'll be right back. mornin'. hey, do you know when the game starts? 11 hours. oh. well, i'm heading back to my room. oh, wi-fi password? super bowl, underscore houston underscore 51, underscore super bowl, backslash 51, backslash houston.
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clinton's close aide huma abedin. cnn is being told that the discovery of those thousands of e-mails was weeks ago. cnn's justice correspondent evan perez is on the phone with me. this was not a discovery made this week when the letter went out but instead weeks ago? >> that's right. we got the impression that the fbi made this disclosure to members of the congress and in that letter jim comey, the fbi director said that he had been briefed on thursday. what that letter doesn't say is is when the fbi first learned of this and we're told by law enforcement officials that we've been talking to that they had this in their possession for weeks. we first reported -- cnn first reported back on september 22nd, just over a month ago, that the fbi -- that the u.s. attorney in manhattan and the fbi were seeking possession of anthony
weiner's communication as part of this sexting investigation. we're told that soon after that, they were able to get these noon indications and they were able to look at the e-mails and that's when the team in the fbi new york office discovered there may be huma abedin e-mails that related to the hillary clinton investigation. they stopped doing their work immediately and brought in the team that had been handling the e-mail investigation and they started looking at that. so by early october, it certainly was clear that there was something here, that it was pertinent to the clinton investigation. so what we are trying to get clarification from the fbi on is why it took so long for any of this to be known. perhaps if they had disclosed this back then, the reaction from the clinton camp would not be so severe. they feel it was revealed so
closely to the election that it could have an affect on the election and certainly now it will have to be looked at much more closely simply because now we know the fbi was in possession of this information for weeks and only now disclosed it. >> so evan, might it still be the case that while the fbi investigators knew about these e-mails weeks ago that perhaps they only informed director comey on this past thursday as comey has stated? >> well, we know that there were several officials at the fbi who had knowledge about this because there was some deliberation inside the fbi about what to do, about how to proceed. obviously everybody knows inside knows about the rules about not disclosing information that is politically sensitive close to an election. it's a policy drilled into
everybody there and they all know that this is something that is very sensitive. and so that might have been part of the deliberation. we don't know exactly what was the hang-up, what was the reason why they kept this under wraps for weeks and weeks and only disclosed it on friday. part of the accusations was because of concern that this would leak out anyway and they were concerned that if it did, it would appear that the fbi was covering up for the clinton campaign. they did not want it to appear that way. that's why they decided to disclose this to members of congress in a letter on friday. the question is, if they knew this so much earlier and they thought it was important enough to disclose to congress, why wouldn't they do it earlier this month? and the damage and the reputation to the fbi and all of the questions that jim comey is
now getting might have been softened a little bit. it's not clear whether that might have made a difference, but certainly that's the question that everybody is asking right now. >> and then why would not a search warrant have been applied for weeks ago upon the discovery as opposed to now we're hearing discussions of a search warrant are happening? >> that's right. exactly. that's another question we're asking, which is, if you had dealt with this back in early october when you certainly had a clear picture that this was related to the ongoing -- to the clinton investigation, then why didn't you start taking those steps then? again, the clock was ticking simply because there is a poll tea at the justice department and the fbi that you don't take certain investigative steps within 60 days of a an election. that's the policy. even if they had done this in october, it still would have raised the same problem. i think the question that the
clinton campaign now certainly has -- and it's a legitimate one, is perhaps if you had done this earlier, it would have given time to reveal this and for the voters to have all of this information, certainly not ten days or 11 days out to only learn this. fred? >> evan perez, thank you so much for your reporting. we'll check back with you. thank you so much. also, straight ahead, the trump campaign reacting to this new inquiry and the rising obamacare costs. >> what we've got is not working and i'm very glad that obamacare continues to form the core of his message even in light of the new fbi investigation. i'm my team's #1 fan. yay. sports.
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...here's the challenges you're going to have. and we can get it confirmed through our quickbooks. and what steps are we going to use to beat these obstacles before they really become a problem. [announcer] get 30 days free at quickbooks.com welcome back. i'm fredricka whitfield. donald trump has zeroed in on one of his primary target issues, blasting obamacare, which he did again today at a rally in las vegas. trump called for health care to be repealed and replaced. earlier today on "state of the union," jake tapper questioned the campaign manager about the presidential candidate's knowledge of the health care law. >> let me ask you a question about health care. there are real questions about whether donald trump understands how obamacare works. take a listen to what mr. trump had to say in florida.
>> all of my employees are having a tremendous problem with obamacare. this is another group, is that a correct statement? you look at what they're going through with their health care is horrible, because of obamacare. >> after he gave that statement the general manager of trump's property attempted to correct the record and said 99% of trump's employees are insured through the hotel meaning they have private insurance. how can mr. trump be the one to replace obamacare if he doesn't seem to understand how it works? >> he does understand. his employees are the lucky ones, jake. they don't have to suffer under obamacare he's talking about the rest of the country, so many who have. he's the right person to repeal and replace it because obamacare is an unmitigated disaster, reminds us how intrusive, invasive and expensive the federal government can come in our lives under the guise of helping people. he was in arizona yesterday and told them that their premiums are expected to rise by 116%. will cnn or anybody else ask mrs. clinton today when she's visiting arizona?
we see these other premium -- mailboxes and clicking onto their computers and getting notice their premiums are about to explode. it is reprehensible and deplorable to coin a phrase that americans are choosing between paying the rent, feeding their families and keeping of their health care. president obama lied 26 or 27 times telling people if you want to keep your doctor you can keep your doctor. no, you can't. people see a lack of quality, a lack of access, a lack of control and increase in price something under the guise of the "affordable care act." the question for hillary clinton is what would you do about it? is obamacare 3.0 in the offing or the bernie sanders supporters who want to us move to single payer system? either way, she should own obamacare, she should be asked what she'd do about it. donald trump says he'd let you compete across state lines to buy your health insurance much the way you buy your auto insurance and other services. he would immediately remove the obamacare penalty which is
hurting many people, and he of course would allow a more patient-centric health care system which would give us all health savings accounts so only you can control your own health care spending, what we've got is not working, and i'm very glad that obamacare continues to form the core of his message, even in light of the new fbi investigation. we've had a great week in large part because mr. trump is talking about obamacare. >> all right. let's bring back our political panel now to discuss all of this. back with me is cnn political commentator david swirdlick and julian zeli sdplchzer. before we dive into the rising premiums, let's revisit this breaking news through which our evan perez reported, he's learning that the fbi knew of these new e-mails when it seized or received this anthony weiner computer back in september 22nd.
so they've known of these new e mays f e-mails for weeks now contrary to what director comey said learning about it this past thursday. we don't know if that was withheld from him for that period of time. so julian, how much bigger of a mess has this now been made? >> well, it becomes a bigger mess with every hour and the more questions raised about why the fbi did this and the process through which the decision was made obviously plays into the concerns that have been raised by the clinton supporters about the entire process through which this is being conducted but it's a reminder, especially without any evidence at this point of any kind of smoking done data that there's a danger of handling these kinds of stories so close to an election without knowing what the facts are. >> and so david, how do you see it? how much more, you know, potentially complicated does it come? >> right.
well, if director comey has the timeline wrong, that's a problem and he'll be scrutinized for it. if, in fact, the fbi knew about these e-mails or whatever it is that's on this device in september, that should have been disclosed, at least what we know and based on evan perez's reporting sooner in the process, not 11 days, which was friday, before the election. that being said, you know, the complaints come from the side that i think is having to struggle with them in a political politic political context. this is throwing a wrench into the clinton's closing argument. back in july when director comey was coming out and making what was also not really a typical fbi protocol statement and speech explaining why he was not recommending criminal charges to the justice department against secretary clinton, it was republicans complaining. and i think that goes to the fact that both sides in this are sort of, you know, pleading
their own case and understandably so but director comey really is in a very difficult position here. >> all right. let's shift gears to this affordable health care and rising premiums in certain jirks decisions. donald trump seizing on that saying he's going to and has committed to repealing and replacing you heard from kellyanne conway being challenged and whether donald trump has a clear understanding about the affordable care act. julian, you know, this is in step with what the gop has been saying for a very long time, it wants to replace and repeal. how does this assist donald trump? >> yeah, look, this has been an argument we've heard from republicans for many years now. it actually faded in this campaign as other issues took up air time but it's come back because of the rising premiums. many would argue it's part of the story overall.
we have far fewer people uninsured but symbolically, the news that premiums have risen on some people will rise is very potent, especially post e-mail story. i think donald trump has the opportunity to use that as another rallying point for the republicans. >> david, is this advantageous? >> at least in the short term, yes. julian is right, broad-sweeping policy issues it's been more about the character of the two candidates and them trying to knock each other down rather than to put forward a broad, comprehensive policy agenda. i also think that -- you played the clip of kellyanne conway talking about the dire state of obamacare. i think that was exaggerated. you can't blame the trump campaign to seize on this and
make their argument that they are the change candidate, that people should rally to them because the obama administration and clinton administration have not delivered. whether that's true, it's a fair argument for them to make. >> does donald trump have to elaborate any further, give any detail about what kind of replacement he would envision? >> he's still behind even though the polls have tightened and even though he's doing a lot better in national polls, she is still in the lead and she still has an advantage in the electoral college and he comes with many liabilities as well. i don't think voters have forgotten that. he has a lot of pressure to get out there and show that he can actually handle some of these policy discussions in ways he has not demonstrated. so he shouldn't think that he can coast in this final week because he should also remember that he's coming from behind at this point. >> all right. julian, david, thank you so
much, gentlemen. appreciate it. we'll be right back. s to make t. first, all customers who have been impacted will be fully refunded. second, we'll proactively send you a confirmation for any new checking, savings, or credit card account you open. third, we've eliminated product sales goals for our retail bankers. to ensure your interests are put first. we're taking action. we're renewing our commitment to you.
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husband, anthonyweiner. the e-mails were discovered during an investigation of weiner, accused of sexting an en underage girl. brynn gingras joins me from new york with more. >> we know that anthony weiner started in congress in 1999 and then two years later, hillary clinton would become a part of the senate. they became even more entwined when weiner started dating huma aberde -- huma abedin, who clin described as her second daughter. anthony wee weiner remaking quiet. he's made no comment and hasn't been seen leaving his manhattan home this weekend, as questions remain what e-mails were discovered that launched the
justice department to reopen the case into hillary clinton's use of a private e-mail server. weiner once stood in harmony with clinton, serving on capitol hill at the same time. weiner was a charismatic, political rising star, who had his eye on clinton's confidant, huma abedin. opposites attracted. the two marries in 2010. bill clinton officiated the ceremony. however, marital bliss soon faced a bomb shell. >> i'm announcing my resignation from congress. >> reporter: weiner surrendered his political post after texting a picture of his crotch, as the couple were expecting a child. huma gave him a second chance and he asked the voters of new york too, as well. but more crude conversations with women surfaced. the final straw for huma abedin
came with allegations that weiner sexted with an underage girl. huma abedin announced she was separating from her husband, and now this jolting the election before voters head to the polls. >> weiner is cooperating. no comment in regards to the recent developments. >> thank you so much. appreciate it. coming up, we'll hear from donald trump and hillary clinton supporters. what they think about this growing fbi investigation. anyone with type 2 diabetes knows how it feels to see your numbers go up, despite your best efforts. but what if you could turn things around?
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i'm proud of the fbi for stepping forward and saying, hey, there's nobody in this country that is above the law. we're all the same. >> seems like everybody is focusing on all of her untrustworthiness and not questioning donald trump. you know, not questioning all the things against him. now i'm starting to sound like kellyanne conway, so i'll keep it on hillary. >> it makes it more imperative that we come out and support her. because there are people just screaming against her all the time. oh, she's unreliable. you can't believe what she says. they've spent millions of dollars and hundreds of hours investigating she and bill clinton for what, 20 years? they found nothing so far. >> all right. we have so much more straight ahead in the newsroom. it all starts right now. hello again, everyone, and thank you so much for joining
that sometimes sets americans against one another and instead make big goals and i've set forth some big goal, getting the economy to work for everyone, not just those at the top. making sure we have the best education system from preschool to college and making it affordable and so much else. if we set those goals and go together to try to achieve them, there's nothing in my opinion that america can't do. so that's why i hope that we will come together in this campaign. obviously, i'm hoing to earn your vote, hoping to be b elected in november and i can promise you, i will work with every american. i want to be the president for all americans. regardless of your political beliefs, where you come from, what you look like, your religion. i want us heal our country and bring it together. our children and grandchildren deserve. >> thank you. you have two minutes.
>> well, i actually agree with that. i agree with everything she said. i began this campaign because i was so tired of seeing such foolish things happen to our country. this is a great country. a great land. i've gotten to know the people of the country over the last year and a half that i've been doing this as a politician. i cannot believe i'm saying that about myself, but i guess i have been a politician and my whole concept was to make america great again. when i watch the deal being made, some horrible things like obamacare, health insurance and health care is going up my numbers that are astronomical, 68%, 71%, when i look at the iran deal and how bad a deal it is for us. it's a one sided transaction. where we're giving back $150 billion to a terrorist state really the number one terror
state, we've made them a strong country from really a very weak country from just three years ago. when i look at all of the things that i see in all of the potential that our country has, we have such tremendous potential. whether it's in business and trade, where we're doing so badly. last year, we had almost $800 billion trade deficit. other words, trading with other countries. we had an $800 billion deficit. it's hard to believe. inconceivable. we're going the make great deals. have a strong border m going to bring back law and order. just today. policemen was shot. two. killed. and this is happening on a weekly basis. we have to bring back respect to law enforcement. at the the same time, we need the take care of people on both sides. we need justice. but i want to do things that haven't been done, including fixing and making inner cities better for african-american sit sebs and for the latinos,
hispanics and i look forward to doing make america great again. >> thank you, mr. trump. the question from patrice was are you both modeling president obamative and appropriate behaviors for today's youth. we refed a lot of questions about the tape released on friday. you called what you said locker room banter, kissing women without consent, grabbing their genitals. that is sexual assault. you bragged that you have sexually assaulted women. >> i don't think you understood. this was locker room talk. i'm not proud of it. i apologize to my family. to the american people. certainly i'm not proud of it. but this is locker room talk. when we have a world where you have isis chopping off heads, where you have frankly drowning people in steel cages, wars and horrible, horrible sights all over, so many bad things happening.
we haven't seen anything like this. the carnage all over the world. can you imagine the people that are frankly doing so well against us with isis. and they look at our country and see what's going on. yes, i'm very embarrassed by it. i hate it. but it's locker room talk and it's one of those things. i will knock the hell out of isis. we're going to defeat isis. isis happened a number of years ago in a vacuum left because of bad judgment and i will tell you, i will take care of isis. >> so, mr. trump -- >> get on to much more important things and much bigger things. >> for the record, are you saying what you said on the bus 11 years ago that you did not kiss women without consent or grope women without consent. >> i have great respect for women. nobody has more respect for women than i do. >> so, you're saying you never did that. >> i said things that frankly, you hear these things. and i was embarrassed by it.
but i have tremendous respect for women. >> have you ever done those thing sns. >> no, i have not. i will tell you, that i'm going the make our country safe. we're going to have borders in our country, which we don't know. people are pouring into our country and coming in from the middle east and other places. we're going to make america safe again. make america great again, but safe again. and we're going to make america wealthy again because if you don't do that, it just, it soupds harsh to say, but we have to i would build up the wealth. >> thank you, mr. trump. >> other naxs are taking our jobs and wealth. >> secretary clinton, do you want to respond? >> well, like everyone else, i spent a lot of time thinking over the last 48 hour about what we heard and saw. you know, with prior republican nominees, for president, i disagreed with them. politics, policies, principles. but i never questioned their fitness to serve.
donald trump is different. i said starting back in june, that he was not fit to be president and commander in chief. and many republicans and independents have said the same thing. what we all saw and heard on friday was donald talking about women. what he thinks about women. what he does to women. and he has said that the video doesn't represent who he is. but i think it's clear to anyone who heard it that it represents exactly what he is. because we've seen this throughout the campaign. we have seen him insult women. we've seen him rate women. on their appearance. ranking them from one to ten. we've seen him embarrass women on tv and on twitter.
we saw him after the first debate spend nearly a week denigrating a former miss universe in the harshest, most personal terms, so, yes, this is who donald trump is. but it's not only women and it's not only this video that raises questions about his fitness to be our president. because he has also targeted immigrants, african-americans, latinos, people are ddisability muslims and others, so, this is who donald trump is and the question for us, the question our country must answer is that this is not who we are. that's why to go back to your question, i want to send a message we all should. to every boy and girl and indeed to the entire world.
that america is great and we are great because we are good and we will respect one another. and we will work with one another and we will celebrate our diversity. these are very important values to me because this is the america that i know and love. and i can pledge to you tonight that this is the america that i will serve if i'm so fortunate enough to become your president. >> and we want to get to some questions -- >> am i allowed to respond to that? >> yes. >> it's just words, folks. just words. those words i've been hearing them for many years. i heard them when they were running for the senate. in new york. where hillary was going to bring back jobs to upstate new york and she faileded. i've heard them where hilly is constantly talking about the inner cities of our country, which are a disaster. educationwise. jobwise.
safetiwise. in every way possibleful i'm going to help the african-americans, help the latinos hispanics. i am going to help the inner cities. she's done a terrible job for the african-americans. she wants their votened does nothing and then comes back four years later. we saw that firsthand when the united states senator. she campaigned where the -- >> mr. trump, mr. trump -- i want to get to audience questions and online questions. >> so, she's allowed to do that, but i'm not allowed to respond. >> sounds fair. >> this tape is generating intense interest. in just 48 hour, it's become the single most talked about story of the entire 2016 lech on facebook with millions and millions of people discussing it on social met network. as we said, we want to bring in questions from voters around country via social media and our first on this topic, jeff from ohio asks on facebook, trump
says the campaign has changed him. when did that happen? so, mr. trump, let me add to that. when you walked off that bus at age 59, were you a different man or did that behavior continue until just recently? and you have two minutes for this. zwl that was locker room talk. i'm not proud of it. i am a person who has great respect for people, for my family, for the people of this country. and certainly, i'm not proud of it but that was something that happened. if you look at bill clinton, far worse, mine are word, his was action. his was he has done to women. never been anybody in theory of politics in this nation that's been so abusive to women, so you can say any way you want to say it, but bill clinton was abusive to women. hillary clinton attacked those same women and attacked them viciously. four of them here tonight.
one of the women who is a wonderful woman at 12 years old, was raped at 12. her client, she represented got him off and she's seen laughing at the girl who was raped. she is here with us tonight, so, don't tell me about words. aam absolutely, i apologize for those words. but it is things that people say, but what president clinton did, he was impeached, lost his license to practice law. he had to pay an $850,000 fine. to one of the women. paula jones, who's also here tonight. and i will tell you that when hillary brings up a point like that and talks about words that i said 11 years ago, i think it's disgraceful and i think she should be ashamed of herself, if you want to know the truth.
>> can we please hold the applause. secretary clinton. >> first, let me say so much of what he just said is not right, but he gets to run his campaign any way he chooses. he gets to decide what hemts to talk about. instead of answering people's questions, laying out the plaps we have than make a better life and a better country. that's his choice. when i hear something like that, i am reminded of what my friend, michelle obama, advised us all. when they go low, you go high. and look, if this were just about one video, maybe what he's saying tonight would be understandable, but everyone can draw their own conclusions at this point about whether or not the man in video or on the stage
respects women. but he never apologizes for anything to win. he never apologized to mr. and main street kahnt gold star family, whose ston died in the line of duty in remark and donald insulted and attacked them for weeks over their religion. he never apologized to the distinguished federal judge who was born in indiana, but donald said he couldn't be trusted to be a judge because his parents were quote mexican. he never apologized to the reporter that he mimicked and mocked on national television. and our children were watching. and he never apologized for the racist lie that president obama was not born in the united
states of america. he owes the president an apology. he owes our country and apology and he needs to take responsibility for his actions and words. >> well, you owe the president an apology because as you know very well, your campaign sidney blumenthal, another real winner that you have and he's the one that got this started along with your campaign manager and they were on television just two weeks ago, she was, saying exactly that. so, you really owe him an apology. you're the one that sent the pictures around your campaign. sent the pictures around with president obama, long before i was involved. number two, michelle obama. i've gotten to see the commercials that they did on you. and i've gotten to see some of the most vicious commercials i've ever seen of michelle obama talking about you, hillary. so, you talk about friend, go back and take a look at those commercials.
a race where you lost fair and square. unlike the bernie sanders race, where you won, but not fair and square, in my opinion. all you have to do is take a look at wick ki leaks and see what they say about sanders and see what wasserman schultz had in mind. never had a chance. i was so surprised to see him sign on with the devil, but when you talk about apology, i think the one you should really be apologizing for and this thing you should be apologizing for are the 33,000 e-mails that you deleted and that you acid washed and then the two boxes of e-mails and other things last week taken from an office and are now missing. i'll tell you whark i didn't think i'd say this and i'm going to say it and hate to say its. if i win, i'm going to instruct the attorney general to get a
special prosecutor to look into your situation because there's never been so many lies, so much deception. never been anything like it and we're going to have a special prosecutor. when i speak, i go out and speak, the people of this country are furious. in my opinion, the people that have been long-term workers at the fbi are furious. there has never been anything like this, where e-mails and you get a subpoena and after getting the subpoena, you delete 33,000 e-mails and then acid watch them or bleach them. a very expensive process, so we're going to get a special prosecutor because people have been, their lives have been destroyed for doing one fifth of what you've done. and it's a disgrace and honestly, you ought to be ashamed. >> let me just talk abts e-mails because everything he just said is absolutely false. but i'm not surprised.
and the first debate, and -- >> the audience needs to calm down here. >> i told people it would be impossible be fact checking dolgd all the the time. i'd never get to talk about anything i want to do or how we're going to make lives better for people. so go to hillary clinton.com. you can fact check him in realtime, last time at the first debate, we had millions of people fact checking, so expect we'll have millions more fact checking. it's just awfully good that someone with the temperment of donald trump is not in charnlg of the law of our country. >> because you'd be in jail. >> we want to remind the audience to please not -- talk out loud. please do not applaud. you're just wasting time. >> you've said your handing of
your e-mails was a mistake. you disagreed with james comey, calling it quote extremely careless. the fbi said there were 110 e-mails. eight of which were top secret and it was possible hostile actors did gain access. you don't call that extremely careless? >> i'll repeat it because i want everyone to hear it. that was a mistake and i take responsibility. for using a personal e-mail account. obviously, if i were to do it over again, i would not. i'm not making any excuses. it was a mistake. and i am very sorry about that. but i think it's also important to point out where there are some misleading accusations from critics and others. after a year long investigation, there is no evidence that anyone hacked the server i was using
and no evidence that anyone can point to at all anyone who says otherwise has no basis. that any classified material ended up in the wrong hands. i take classified materials very soorsly and always have when i was on the senate armed services committee, i was privy to a lot of classified material. obviously, as secretary of state, i had some of the most important secrets that we possess such as going after bin laden so i am very committed to taking classified information seriously. there is no evidence that any classified information ended up in the wrong hands. >> and yet, she didn't know the word the letter c on a document. right? she didn't even know what that letter meant. you know, it's amazing. i'm watching hillary go over facts.
and she's going after fact after fact and lying again. because she said she you know, what she dwid the e-mail was fine. you think it was fine? i don't think so. she said that 33,000 e-mails had to do with her daughter's wedding, number one and a yoga class. maybe we'll give three or four or five. 33,000 e-mails deleted and now, she's saying there wasn't anything wrong more importantly, that was after getting the subpoena. got it from the united states congress and i'll p honest, i am so disappointed in congressmen. including republicans. for allowing this to happen. our justice department, where our husband goes on to the back of a plane for 39 minutes, talks to the attorney general, days before a ruling is going to be made on her case, but for you to say that there was nothing wrong with you deleting 39,000 e-mails, again, you should be ashamed of yourself. what you did and this is after
getting a subpoena from the united states congress. >> we have to move on. secretary clinton, you can respond. >> we want to give the audience a chance here. >> let alone after getting a subpoena from the united states government. >> clinton, you can respond. we have to move on to an audience question. >> look, it's just not true, so please -- >> you didn't delete them? >> allow her to respond, please. >> 33,000. >> not, well, we turned over 35 thourk, so -- >> what about the other 15,000? >> please allow her to respond. she didn't talk while you talked. >> yes, that's true, i didn't. in the first debate and i'm going to try not to in this debate because i'd like to get to the questions. >> get off this question. >> okay, donlgd, i know you're into big diversion tonight, anything to avoid talking about your campaign and the way it's exploding and the way republicans are leaving you. >> see what happens -- >> the issues that people care about tonight.
>> we have a question from ken. about hello care. >> i'd like to know why aren't you bringing up the e-mails? it hasn't been finished. >> ken has a question. >> nice to one on three. >> thank you. >> affordable care act known as obamacare, it is not affordable. premiums have gone up. deductibles have gone up. copays have gone up. prescriptions have gone up and the coverage has gone down. what will you do to bring the cost down, and make coverage better? >> that first one goes to secretary clinton because you started out the last one to the audience. >> he wants to start. he can start. go ahead, donald. >> no, i'm a gentlemen, go ahead. >> secretary clinton. zpl well, i think he was abt to say he's going to solve it by repealing it and getting rid of the affordable care act and i'm
going to fix it. because i agree with you. premiums have gotten too high. copay, deductibles, prims drug costs and i've laid out a series of anchors we can take to try to get thoez coses down. here's what i don't want people to forget when we talk about rainging in the cost. when the affordable care act passeded, it wasn't just a tha 20 million got insurance who didn't have it before. that was a good thing. i meet these people all the time and they tell in what a difference it meant having that. but efrk else, the 170 million of of us who goat get insurance through our employees, got big benefits. number one, insurance companies can't deny you coverage because of a preexisting condition. number two, no lifetime limits. which is a big deal in you have serious hello problems. number three, women can't be
charged more than men for health insurance, which is the way it used to be. number four, if you're under 26, and your parents have a policy, you can be on at policy until the 26. so i want very much to save what works and is good about the affordable care act, but we've got to get costs down. we've got to provide additional help to small businesses. to know that they can afford to provide health insurance. but if we repeal it as donald has proposed and start over again, all of those benefits are lost to everybody. not just people who get their health insurance on the exchange. and then we would have to start all over again. right now, we are at 90% health insurance coverage. that's highest we've ever been in our country. zpl your time's aup. >> i want us to get 100% and keep costs down and quality up.
>> you have two minutes. >> it is such a great question and maybe the question i get almost more than anything else. outside of defense. obamacare is a disaster. you know it. we all know it. it's going up at numbers that nobody's seen worldwide. nobody's ever seen numbers like this for health care. only gets worse. in 17, implodes by itself. their method of fixing it is to go back and ask congress for more and more money. we have almost $20 trillion in debt. obamacare will never work. it's very bad. very bad health insurance. far too expensive. and not only expensive for the person that has it, unbelievably expensive for our country. one of the biggest line items very shortly. we have to repeal it. and replace it. with something absolutely much less expensive. and something that works.
where your plan can actually be tailored. we have to get rid of the lains around the state. artificial lines, where we stop insurance companies from coming in and competing because they want and president obama and whoever was working on it, they want to leave those lines because that gives the insurance companies essentially monopolies. we want competition. you'll have the finest health care plan there is. she wants to go to a single payer plan, which would be a disaster. somewhat similar to canada. if you've noticed the canadians, when they need a big operation, they come into the united states in many cases, because their system is so slow. it's catastrophic in certain ways. but she wants to go to single payer, which means the government basically rules everything. hillary clinton has been after this for years. obamacare was the fist step. obamacare is a total zas e and not only are your rates going up by numbers nobody's believed,
but your deductibles are going up so unless you get hit be by a truck, you're never going to be able to use it. it is a disastrous plan and has to be repealed. and replaced. >> your husband called obamacare quote, the craziest thing in the world. small business owners are getting killed, coverage is cut in half. was he mistaken or simply telling the truth. >> he claire iffed and it's clear. look, we are in a situation in our country, where if we were to startal over again, we might come up with a different system. but we have an employer based system. that's where the vast majority of people get their health care. and the affordable care act was meant to try to fill the gap between people who were too poor and couldn't put together any resources to afford health care, namely, people on medicaid. obviously, medicare, which is a single payer system. which takes care of our eilidh rly and does a great job doing
it, by the way, aend then all of the people who were employeed. but people who were working, but didn't have the money to afford insurance and didn't have anybody, an employer, anybody else to help them. that was the slot that the obama care approach was to take. and like i say, 20 million people now have health insurance. so, if we just rip it up and throw it away, what donald's not telling you is we just turn it back to the insurance companies the way it used to be and that means the insurance companies get to do pretty much whatever they want, including saying look, sorry, you've got die beat, you had cancer, your child hads asthma. you may not be able to have insurance because you can't afford it, so let's fix what's broken about it, but let's not throw it away and give it back to the insurance companies. that's not going to work. >> mr. trump -- >> first of all, hillary, everything's broken about it. everything. number two, bernie sanders said hillary clinton has very bad judgment.
this is a perfect example of it. >> mr., you've said you want to end obamacare and make coverage accessible for people with preexisting conditions. how do you force insurance companies to do that if you're no longer mandating -- what does that mean? >> i'll tell you. you're going to have plans that are so good because we're going to have some competition. once we break out the lines and allow the competition to come. >> are you going to have a mandate that americans have to have health insurance? >> president obama by keeping those ryan lines and it was almost gone until just right toward the end of the passage of obamacare, which was a froud. you know that, because jonathan grouper, the architect of obamacare, said it was a great lie. it was big lie. president obama said you keep your plan, the whole thing was a froud and it doesn't work. when we get rid of those lines,
you have competition and we'll be able to keep preexisting and help people that can't get, don't have money because we are going to have people protected. and republicans feel this way. believe it or not and strongly this way. we're going to block grant. into the states. block grant into medicaid. so we will be able to take care of people without the necessary funds to take care of themselves. >> thank you. >> now a question for both candidates. >> there are 3.3 muslims in the united states and i'm one of them. you've mentioned working with muslim nations, but with islamophobia on the rise, how will you help people like me deal with the consequences of being a threat to the country after the election is over. >> mr. trump. >> you're right about islamophobia and that's a shape. one thing we have to do is we have to make sure that because
there is a problem. whether we like it or not and we could be very politically correct, but whether we like it or not, there is a problem and we have to be sure that muslims come in and report when they see something going on. when they see hatred going op, they have to report it. in san bernardino, many people saw the bombs all over the apartment of the two people that killed 14 and wounded many, many people. horribly wounded. never be the same. muslims have to report the problems when they see them. and you know, there's always a reason for everything. if they don't do that, it's a very difficult situation for our country because you look at orlando. and you look at san bernardino and the world trade center. look at paris. the horrible, these are radical islamic terrorists. and she won't even mention the word and nor will president obama. he won't use the term radical islamic terrorism.
now, to solve the problem, you have to be able to state what the problem is or at least say the name. she won't say the name and president obama won't say the name. but the name is there. it's radical islamic terror and before you solve it, you have to say the name. >> secretary clinton. >> thank you for asking. your question and i've heard this question from a lot of muslim americans across u our country. because unfortunately, there's been a lot of very devicive, dark things said about muslims. and even someone like the young man who sacrificed himself defending our country from the united states army has been subject to attack by donald. i want to say just a couple of things. first, we've had muslims in america since george washington. and we've had many successful muslims.
we just lost a particular well-known one with mohammed ali. my vision of america is an america where everyone has a place. if you're willing to work hard, you do your part, you contribute to the community. that's what america is. that's what we want america to be for our children and grandchildren. it's also very short sided and even dangerous. to be engaging in the kind of rhetoric that donald has about muslims. we need american muslims to be part of our eyes and ears on our front lines. i've worked with a lot of different muslim groups around america. i've met with a lot of them an heard how important it is for them to feel they are wanted and included and part of our country, part of our homeland security and that's what i want to see. it's also important i intend to defeat isis. to do so, in a coalition with majority muslim nations.
right now, a lot of those nations are hearing what dolgd says and wondering why should we cooperate with the americans and this is a gift to isis and the terrorists. violent jihadist terrorist. we are not at war with islam. and it is a mistake and it plays into the hands of the terrorists to act as though we are. so, i want a country where citizens like you and your family are just as welcome as anyone else. >> thank you, secretary clinton. >> mr. trump, in december, you said this. donald j. trump is call for a total an complete shutdown of muslims entering the united states until we can figure out what the hell is going on. we have no choice. we have no choice. your running mate said this week that the muslim ban position. is that correct? and if it is, was it a mistake to have a religious test?
>> first of all, captain kahn is an american hero and if i were president at this time, he would be alive today because unlike her, who voted for the war without knowing what she was doing, i would not have had our people in iraq. iraq was disaster. so, he would have been alive today. the muslim ban is something that in some form has morphed into a extreme vetting. from certain areas of the world. hillary clinton wants to allow >> and why did it morph into that? answer the question. do you still believe -- i do. >> why don't you interrupt her? >> would you please ek plain whether or not the ban still stands? >> it's called extreme vetting. we are going to areas like syria. where they're coming in by the tens of thousands because of barack obama. and hillary clinton wants to
allow a 550% increase over obama. people are coming into our country like we have no idea who they are. where they are from. what their feeling about our country is and she wants 550% more. this is going to be the great trojan horse of all time. i believe in building safe zones, in having other people pay for them as an example, the gulf states who are not carrying their weight, but have nothing but money, and take care of peechl but i don't want to have with all t problems this country has and all of the problems that you see going on, hundreds of thousands of people coming in from syria when we know nothing about them. we know nothing about their values and we know nothing about their love for our country. >> and secretary clinton, let me ask you about that. because you have asked for an increase from ten to 65,000 syrian refugees. we know you want tougher vetting. that's not a perfect system.
so, why take the risk of having those refugees come in to the country? >> first of all, i will not let anyone into our country that i think poses a risk to us. but there are a lot of refugees, women and children, think of that picture we all saw of that 4-year-old boy with the blood on his forehead because he had been bombed by the russian and syrian air forces. there are children suffering in this catastrophic war. largely i believe because of russian aggression. and we need to do our part. we by no means are carrying anywhere near the load that europe and others are. but we will have vetting that is as tough as it needs to be from our professionals, our intelligence experts and others. but it is important for us as a policy, you know, not to say as
donald has said, we're going to ban people based on a religion. how do you do that? we are a country founded on religious freedom and liberty. how do we do what he has advocated without causing great distress within our own county truchl are we going to have religious tests? when people fly into our country? and how do we expect to be able to implement those? so, i thought that what he said was extremely unwise. and even dangerous. and indeed, you can look at the problem began da on a lot of the terrorists sites and what donald trump says about muslims is used to recruit fighters. because they want to create a war between us. and the final thing i would say, this is the tenth or 12th he's denied being for the war in iraq.
we have it on tape. the entire press. >> she just went about 25 second over her time. could i just respond to this, please? >> very quickly, please. >> hillary clinton in terms of having people come into our country, we have many criminal illegal aliens, when we want to send them back to their country, their country says we don't want them. in some cases, they're murders and they don't want them. hillary clinton, when she was secretary of state, said that's okay, we can't force it. let me tell you, i'm going to force them right back into their country. their murderers and some very bad people. when bernie sanders said she had bad judgment, she has really bad
judgment because we are letting people into this country that are going to cause problems and crime like you've never seen. we're letting drugs pour through our southern border at a record clip and it shouldn't be allowed to happen. i.c.e. just endorsed me. 16,500 just endorsed me and they endorsed me because i understand the border. she doesn't. she wants amnesty for everybody. come right in. come right over. it's a horrible thing she's doing. she's got bad judgment. and honestly, so bad that she should never be president of the united states. that, i can tell you. >> i want to move op. this next question from the public through the bipartisan open debate, where americans submitted questions that generated millions of votes. it violas reported excerpts of secretary clinton's paid
speeches, which she has refused to release and one line, in which you say you need both a public and private position on certain issues. so, two, from virginia asks is it okay for politicians to be two faced. is it acceptable for a politician to have a private stance. >> right, as i recall, that was something i said about abraham link pen and after having seen the wonderful steven spielberg movie called lincoln. it was a master class watching president lincoln get the congress to approve the 13th amend. it was principled and strategic. i was making the point that it is hard sometimes to get the congress to do what you want to
do. to keep working at it. and yes, president lincoln was trying to quoins convince some people to use some arguments. that was a great i thought a great display of presidential leadership. but you know, let's talk about what's really going on because what's really going on because our intelligence community said the kremlin, meaning putin and the russian government, our directing the attacks, the hacking, on american accounts to influence our election. other sites, where the russians hack information. we don't know if it's accurate information an then they put it out. we have never in the history of our country been in a situation where an adversary, a foreign
power, is working so hard to influence the outcome of the election. and believe me, they're not doing it to get elected. they're doing it to try to influence the election for donald trump. now, maybe because he has praised putin, maybe because he says he agrees with a lot of what putin wants to do, maybe because he wants to do business in moscow, i don't know the reasons. but we deserve answers. we should demand that will donald release all of his tax returns so that people can see what are the entanglements and the financial relationships. >> we're going to get to that later. >> secretary, clinton, you're out of time. >> i think i should respond because so ridiculous. now she's blaming -- she got caught in a total lie. her papers later. things wikileaks that just came out. she lied. now she's blaming the lie on the late great abe lap lincoln.
that's one that i haven't -- okay, honest abe never lied. that's the good thing. that's the big difference between abraham lincoln and you. that's a big, big difference we're talking about some difference. but as far as other elements of what she was saying, i don't know putin. i think it would be great if we got along with russia because we could fight isis together as an example. but i don't know putin. i notice anytime anything wrong happens, they like to say the russians -- she doesn't know if it's the russians doing the hacking. maybe there is no hacking. but they always blame russia and the reason is because they think they're trying to tarnish me with russia. i know about russia but i know nothing about the inner workings of russia. i have no businesses. i have no loans from russia. i have a very, very great balance sheet, so great when i did the old post office on pennsylvania avenue, the united states government, because of my balance sheet which they actually know very well, chose me to do the old post office
between the white house and congress, chose me to do the old post office. one of the primary area things, perhaps the primary thing was balance sheet. but i have no loans with russia. you could go to the united states government and they would probably tell you that because they know my sheet very well in order to get that development. i had to have. now thetachs are very simple thing. first of all, i pay hundreds of millions of dollars in taxes. many of her friends took bigger deductions, warren buffett took a massive desuction, soros took a massive desuction. many of the people giving her all this money that she can do many more commercials from me took massive deductions. i pay hundreds of millions of dollars in taxes, about you, but as soon as my re routine audit is finished i'll release my returns. >> we have a question from spencer moss.
spencer? >> good evening. my question is, what specific tax provisions will you change to insure the wealthiest americans pay their fair share intachs oo. >> one thing i would do is get rid of carried interest. one of the greatest provisions for people like me, i give up a lot when i run because i knock out the tax code. she could have done this be years ago. she's a -- she was a united states senator. she complains that donald trump took advantage of the tax code. well, why didn't she changing it? why didn't you change it when you were a senator? the reason you didn't is all your friends take the same advantage that i do. you have provisions in the tax code that frankly we could change. but you wouldn't change it because all of these people give you the money so you can take negative ads on donald trump. but and i say that about a lot of things. i've heard hillary complaining about so many different things over the years. i wish you would have done this. for 30 years, she's been doing this stuff.
she never changed and she never will change. we're getting rid of carried interest provisions. i'm lowering taxes actually because i think it's so important for corporations because we have corporations leaving massive corporations and little ones, little ones can't form. we're getting rid of regulations which goes hand in hand with the lowering of the taxes. we're bringing the tax rate down from 35% to 15%. we're cuttingtachs for the middle class. i will tell you we are cutting them big league for the middle class. i will tell you, hillary clinton is raising your taxes, folks. you can look at me. she's raising your taxes really high. and what that's going to do is a disaster for the country. but she is raising your taxes and i'm lowering your taxes. that in itself is a big difference. we are going to be thriving again. we have no growth in this country. if china has a gdp of 7%, it's like a national catastrophe. we're down to 1%.
and that's like no growth. we're going lower in my opinion. and a lot of it has to do with the fact that our taxes are so high. just about the highest in the world. and i'm bringing them down to one of the lower in the world. and i think it's so important, one of the most important things we can do. but she is raising everybody's taxes massively. >> secretary clinton, you have two minutes. the question is, what specific tax provisions will you change to ensure the wealthiest americans pay their fair share of taxes. >> well, everything you've heard everywhere donald just now is not true. i'm sorry i have to keep saying this, but he lives in an alternative reality. it is sort of amusing to hear somebody who hasn't paid federal income taxes in maybe 20 years talking about what he's going to do. i'll tell you what he's going to do. his plan will give the wealthy and corporations the biggest tax cuts they've ever had. more than the bush tax cuts by at least a factor of two. donald always takes care of donald and people like donald and this would be a massive
gift. and indeed, the way that he talks about his tax cuts would end up raising taxes on middle class families, millions of middle class families. here's what i want to do. i have said nobody who makes less than $250,000 a year, and that's the vast majority of americans as you know, will have their taxes raised because we've got to go where the money is. the money is with people who have taken advantage of every single break in the tax code. yes, when i was a senator, i did vote to close corporate loopholes. i voted to close, i think one of the loopholes he took advantage of when he claimed a billion dollar loss that enabled him to avoid paying taxes. i want to have a tax on people who are making a million dollars called the buffett rule. yes, warren buffett has gone out and said somebody like him should not be paying a lower tax rate than his secretary. i want a surcharge on income above $5 million.
i want to invest in you. i want to invest in hard-working families. i think it's been unfortunate but it's happened since the great recession, the gains have all gone to the top. we need to reverse that. people like donald who paid zero in taxes, zero for our vets, zero for our military, zero r health and education, that is wrong. and we're going to make sure that nobody, no corporation, and no individual can get away without paying his fair share to support our country. >> mr. trump, i want to give you the chance to respond. i want to tell viewers. in the last month,tachs were the number one issue on facebook for the first time in the campaign. "the new york times" published three pages of your 1995 tax returns. you claimed a $916 million loss which means you could have avoided paying personal income taxes for years. you said you pay property taxes, real estate taxes.
you have not answered a simple question. did you use the loss to avoid paying personal federal income taxes? >> of course i do. so do all of her donors or most of her donors. i know many of her donors. they took massive tax write-offs. >> have you paid personal federal tax? >> a lot of my write-off was depreciation and that hillary as a senator allowed. the people that give her all this money want it. i understand it the tax code better than anybody that's run for president. hillary clinton, it's extremeply complex. hockey has friends that want the carried interest provision which is very important to wall street people. but they really want the carried interest provision. which i believe hillary's leaving. very interesting why she's leaving carried interest. number one, i pay tremendous numbers of taxes. i absolutely used it. so did warren buffett and so did george soros and so did many of
the other people that hillary is getting money from. now, i won't mention their names because they're rich but they're not famous. we don't make them famous. >> can you say how many years you have avoided paying personal federal income taxes? >> no, but i pay tax and pay federal tax, too. i have a write-off, a lot of it is depreciation. it's a wonderful charge. if she had a problem for 30 years, she's been doing this, anderson. i say it all the time. she talks about health care. why didn't she do something about it? she talks about taxes. she doesn't do anything about anything other than talk. with her, it's all talk and no action. >> in the past. >> and again, bernie sanders, it's really bad judgment. she has made bad judgment not only on taxes, she's made bad judgments on libya, on syria. on iraq. i mean, her and obama, whether you like it or not, the way they
got out of iraq, the vacuum they've left, that's why isis formed in the first place. they started from that little area and now they're in 32 different nations, hillary. congratulations. great job. >> i want you to be able to respond, secretary clinton. >> well, here we go again. i've been in favor of getting rid of carried interest for years. starting when i was a senator from new york. but that's not the point here. >> why didn't you do it? >> why didn't you do it. >> because i was a senator with a republican president. i will be the president. >> you could have done it if you were an effective -- >> that's exactly right. >> if you were an effective senator, could you have done it. but you were not an effective senator. >> please allow her to respond. she didn't interrupt you. >> under our constitution, presidents have something called veto power. look, he has now said repeatedly 30 years this and 30 years that. so let me talk about my 30 years in public service. i'm very glad to do so. 8 million kids, every year, have
health insurance because when i was first lady, i worked with democrats and republicans to create the children's health insurance program. hundreds of thousands of kids now have a chance to be adopted because i worked to change our adoption and foster care system. after 9/11, i went to work with republican mayor, governor and president to rebuild new york and to get health care for our first responders who were suffering because they had run toward danger and gotten sickened by it. hundreds of thousands of national guard and reserve members have health care because of work that i did. and children vsh safer medicines because i was able to pass a law that required the dosing to be more carefully done. when i was secretary of state, i went around the world advocating for our country but also advocating for women's rights to make sure that women had a decent chance to have a better life. and negotiated a treaty with
russia to lower nuclear weapons. 400 pieces of legislation have my name on it as a sponsor or cosponsor when i was a senator for eight years. i worked very hard and was very proud to be re-elected in new york by an even bigger margin than i had been elected the first time. and as president, i will take that work, that bipartisan work, that finding common ground because you have to be able to get along with people to get things done in washington. >> thank you, secretary. >> i've proven that i can and for 30 years, i've produced results for people. >> thank you, secretary. >> we're going to move on to syria. both of you have mentioned that. >> she said a lot of things that were false. i think we should be allowed. >> mr. trump, this is about the audience. >> she's been a disaster as a senator. >> we're going to move on. the heart breaking video of a 5-year-old syrian boy sitting in an ambulance after being pulled from the rubble after an air striking in aleppo focused the world's attention on the horrors
of the war in syria with 136 million views of on facebook alone. but there are much worsives coming out of aleppo every day now where in the past few weeks alone, 400 people have been killed, at least 100 of them children. days ago, the state department called for a war crimes investigation of the syrian regime of bashar al assad and russia for their bombardment of aleppo. this next question comes through social media through facebook. diane from pennsylvania asks, if you were president what would you do about syria and the humanitarian crisis in aleppo? isn't it a lot like the holocaust when the u.s. waited too long before we helped? secretary clinton, we'll begin with your two minutes. >> well, the situation in syria is catastrophic. and every day that goes by, we see the results of the regime by as sad in partnership with the iranians on the grounds, the
russians in the air bombarding places in particular aleppo where there are hundreds of thousands of people probably about 250,000 still left. and there is a determined effort by the russian air force to destroy aleppo in order to eliminate the last of the syrian rebels who are really holding out against the assad regime. russia hasn't paid any attention to isis. they're interested in keeping assad in power. so i when i was secretary of state, advocated and i advocate today a no-fly zone and safe zones. we need to some leverage with the russians because they are not going to come to the negotiating table for a diplomatic resolution unless there is some leverage over them. and we have to work more closely with our partners and allies on the ground.
but i want to emphasize that what is at stake here is the ambitions and the aggressiveness of russia. russia has decided that it's all in in syria. and they've also decided who they want to see become president of the united states too, and it's not me. i've stood up to russia. i've taken on putin and others and i would do that as president. i think wherever we can cooperate with russia, that's fine. and i did as secretary of state. that's how we got a treaty reducing nuclear weapons. it's how we got the sanctions on iran that put a lid on the iranian nuclear program without firing a single shot. so i would go to the negotiating table with more leverage than we have now but i do support the effort to investigate for crimes, war crimes committed by the syrians and the russians and try to hold them accountable. >> thank you, secretary clinton. >> first of all, she's there
with the so-called line in the sand which. >> no, i wasn't. i was gone. i hate to interrupt you but at some point we needed to do some fact checking. >> you were in contact with the white house and perhaps sadly, obama probably still listened to you. i don't think he would listen to you very much anymore. obama draws the line in the sand. it was laughed at all over the world what happened. now, with that being said, she talks tough against russia. but our nuclear program has fallen way behind and they've gone wild with their nuclear program. not good. our government shouldn't have allowed that to happen. russia is new in terms of nuclear. we are old. we're tired. we're exhausted in terms of nuclear. a very bad thing. she talks tough, she talks really tough against putin. and against assad. she talks in favor of the rebels. she doesn't even know who they are. every time we take rebels, whether it's in iraq or anywhere
else, we're arming people, and you know what happens? they end up being worse than the people. look what she did in libya with gadhafi. gadhafi's out. it's a mess. isis has a good clunk of their oil. i'm sure you probably have heard that. it was a disaster. the fact is almost everything she's done in foreign policy has been a mistake and it's been a disaster. but if you look at russia, just take a look at russia, and look at what they did this week where i agree, she wasn't there but possibly she's consulted. we sign a peace treaty. everyone's excited. what russia did with assad and with iran who you made very powerful with the dumbest deal i've ever seen, the iran deal with the $1.7 billion in cash which is enough to fill up this room. but look at adil. iran now and russia are now against us. so she wants to fight. she wants to fight for rebels. there's only one problem. you don't even know who the
rebels are. >> mr. trump it, your two minutes is up. >> one thing i have to say. i don't like assad at all but assad is killing isis. russia is killing isis. and iran is killing isis. and those three have now lined up because of our weak foreign policy. >> mr. trump, let me repeat the question. if you were president, what would you do about syria and the humanitarian crisis in aleppo? i want to remind you what your running mate said. he said prove vocations by russia need to be met with american strength and if russia continues to be involved in air strikes along with the syrian government forces of assad, the united states of america should be prepared to use military force to strike the military targets of the assad regime. >> okay. he and i haven't spoken and i disagree. >> you disagree with your running mate. >> right now, syria is fighting isis.
we have people that want to fight both at the same time. but syria is no longer syria. syria is russia and iran who she made strong and kerry and obama made into a very powerful nation and very rich nation, very, very quickly. very, very quickly. i believe we have to get isis. we have to worry about isis before we can get too much more involved. she had a chance to do something with syria. they had a chance. that was the line. >> what do you think will happen if aleppo falls. >> it is a disaster. >> what do you think will happen if it falls? >> i think it basically has fallen. let me tell you something. you take a look at mosul. the biggest problem i have with the stupidity of our foreign policy, we have mosul. we have flouncements coming out of washington and iraq, we will be attacking mosul in three or four weeks. all of these bad leaders from isis are leaving mosul. why can't they do it quietly.
why can't they do the attack, make it a sneak attack and after the attack is made, inform the american public that we've knocked out the leaders, we've had a tremendous success. people leave. why do they have to say we're going to be attacking mosul within the next four to six weeks which is what they're saying. how stupid is our country. >> there are sometimes reasons the military does that. psychological warfare. >> i can't think of any. i'm pretty good at it. we have general flynn. i have 200 generals and admiral who's endorse me. i have 21 congressional medal of honor recipients who endorse me. we talk about it all the time. they understand, why can't they do something secretively where they go in and they knock out the leadership. how -- why would these people stay there? i've been reading now. >> tell me what your strategy is. >> for weeks about mosul, it's the harbor between raqqah and mosul, this is where they think
the isis leaders would be. they're gone. because everybody's talking about how iraq which is us with our leadership goes into fight mosul. now, with these 200 admirals and generals, they can't believe it. all i say is this. general george patton, general douglas mcauthur are spinning in their grave as the stupidity of what we're doing in the middle east. >> secretary clinton, you want assad to go. you advocated arming rebels. it looks like that may be too late for aleppo. you talk about diplomatic efforts. those have failed. cease fires have failed. would you introduce the threat of u.s. military force beyond a no-fly zone against the assad regime to back up diplomacy? >> i would not use american ground forces in syria. i think that would be a very serious mistake. i don't think american troops should be holding territory
which is what they would have to do as an occupying force. i don't think that is a smart strategy. i do think the use of special forces which we're using, the use of enablers and trainers in iraq which has had some positive effects are very much in our interests and so i do support what is happening, but let me just. >> what would you do differently than president obama is doing? >> martha, i hope by the time -- >> everything. >> i hope by the time i am president, that we will have pushed isis out of iraq. i do think that there is a good chance that we can take mosul. and you know, donald says he knows more about isis than the generals. no, he doesn't. there are a lot of very important planning going on and some of it is to signal to the sunnis in the area as well as kurdish peshmerga fighters that we all need to be in this.
that takes a lot of planning and preparation. i would go after baghdadi. i would specifically target baghdadi because i think our targeting of al qaeda leaders and i was involved in a lot of the those operations, highly classified ones, made a difference. that could help. i would also consider arming the kurds. the kurds have been our best partners in syria as well as iraq. and i know there's a lot of concern about that in some circles but i think they should have the equipment they need so that kurdish and arab fighters on the ground are the principal way that we take raqqah after pushing isis out of iraq. >> thank you very much. >> it's funny she went over a minute over and you don't stop her. when i go one second over -- >> you have many answers. >> it's very interesting. >> a question from james carter. mr. carter?
>> my question is, do you believe you can be a devoted president to all the people in the united states? >> that question begins for mr. trump. >> absolutely. i mean, she calls our people deplorable. a large group and irredeemable. i will be a president for all of our people. and i'll be a president that will turn our inner cities around and will give strength to people and will give economics to people and will bring jobs back because nafta signed by her husband is perhaps the greatest disaster trade deal in the history of the world. not in this country. it stripped us of manufacturing jobs. we lost our jobs. we lost our money. we lost our plants. it is a disaster. now she wants to sign tpp even though now she says she's for it. she called it the gold standard.
she lied. it turned out she did say the gold standard and she said she didn't say it. they actually said that she lied and she lied. but she's lied about a lot of things. i would be a president for all of the people. african-americans, the inner cities. devastating what's happening to our inner cities. she's been talking about it for years. as usual, she talks about it, nothing happens. she doesn't get it done. same with the latino americans. the hispanic americans. the same exact thing. they talk, they don't get it done. you go into the inner cities and you see it's 45% poverty. african-americans now 45% poverty in the inner cities. the education is a disaster. jobs are essentially nonexistent. i mean, it's -- you know, and i've been saying big speeches where i have 20,000 and 30,000 people, what do you have to lose? it can't get any worse.
she's been talking about the inner cities for 25 years. nothing's going to ever happen. let me tell you, if she's president of the united states, nothing's going to happen. it's going to be talk. all of her friends the taxes we were talking about, and i would just get it by osmosis. she's not doing me any favors. by doing all the others favors, she's doing me favors. she's all talk. it doesn't get done. look at her senate run, take a look at upstate new york. >> your two minutes is up. >> you have two minutes, secretary clinton. >> well, 67% of the people voted to re-elect me when i ran for my second term. and i was very proud and very humbled by that. mr. carter, i have tried my entire life to do what i can to support children and families. you know, right out of law school, i went to work for the children's defense fund. donald talks a lot about you know, the 30 years i've been in public service.
i'm proud of that. you know, i started off as a young lawyer working against discrimination against african-american children in schools and in the criminal justice system. i worked to make sure that kids with disabilities could get a public education. something that i care very much about. i have worked with latinos, one of my first jobs in politics was down in south texas registering latino citizens to be able to vote. so i have a deep devotion to use your absolutely correct word. to making sure that an every american feels like he or she has a place in our country. and i think when you look at the letters that i get, a lot of people are worried that maybe they wouldn't have a place in donald trump's america. they write me and one woman wrote me about her son felix. she adopted him from ethiopia. he's 10 years old now.
this is the only one country he's known. he listens to donald on tv and said to miss mother, will he send me back to ethiopia if he gets elected. children liston what is being said, to go back to the very, very first question. and there's a lot of fear in fact, teachers and parents are calling it the trump effect. bull ying is up. a lot of people are feeling uneasy, a lot of kids are expressing their concerns. so first and foremost, i will do everything i can to reach out to everybody. democrats, republicans, independents, people across our country. if you don't vote for me, i still want to be your president. i want to be the best president i can be for every american. >> your two minutes is up. i want to follow up on something donald trump actually said to you, a comment you made last month. you said that half his supporters are deplorables, racist, xenophobic, islammophobic. you later said you regretted saying half. you didn't express regret for using the term deplorables.
how can you unite a country if you've written off tens of millions of americans. >> within hours i said i was sorry about the way i talked about that. my argument is not with his supporters. it's with him and with the hateful and divisive campaign he has run and the inciting of violence at his rallies and the very brutal kinds of comments about not just women, but all-americans. all kinds of americans. and what he has said about african-americans and latinos, about muslims, about p.o.w.s, about immigrants, about people with disabilities, he's never apologized for. and so, i do think that a lot of the tone and tenor that he has said, i'm proud of the campaign that bernie sanders and i ran. we ran a campaign based on issues, not insults. he is supporting me 100%. >> thank you.
>> because we talked about what we wanted to do. we might have had some differences and we had a lot of debates but we believed that we could make the country better. i was proud of that. >> i give you a minute. >> we have a divided nation. we have a very divided nation. you look at charlotte. you look at baltimore. you look at the violence that's taking place in the inner cities, chicago, you take a look at washington, d.c. we have an increases in murder within our cities. the biggest in 45 years. we have a divided nation because people like her, and believe me, she has tremendous hate in her heart. and when she said deplorables, she meant it. and when she said irredeemable, they're irredeemable, you didn't mention that, but when she said they're irredeemable, that might have even been worse. >> she said some of them. >> she's got tremendous hatred. and this country cannot take another four years of barack obama and that's what you're getting with h.
>> mr. trump, let me follow up with you. in 2008, wrote in one of your books the most important characteristic of a good leader is discipline. you said if a leader doesn't have it "he or she won't be one for very long." in the days after the first debate, you sent out a series of tweets from 3:00 a.m. to 5:00 a.m. including one that told people to check out a sex tape. is that discipline. >> it was just take a look at the person she built up to be this wonderful girl scout who was no girl scout. just so you understand, when she said 3:00 in the morning, take a look at benghazi. she said who is going to answer it the call at 3:00 in the morning. guess what, she didn't answer because when ambassador stevens. >> the question is, is that the discipline of a good leader. >> 600 times. she said she was awake at 3:00 in the morning and she also sent a tweet out at 3:00 in the morning. she said she'll be awake. guess what happened. ambassador stevens, ambassador stevens sent 600 requests for help.
and the only one she talked to was sidney blumenthal who is her friend and not a good guy by the way. so you know, she shouldn't be talking about that. now, it tweeting happens to be a modern day form of communication. i mean, you can like it or not like it. i have between facebook and twitter, i have almost 25 million people. it's a very effective wa communication. so you can put it down, but it is a very effective form of communication. i'm not unproud of it to be honest with you. >> secretary clinton, does mr. trump have the discipline to be a good leader >> no. >> i'm shocked to hear that. >> well, it's not only my opinion. it's the opinion of many others. national security experts, republicans, former republican members of congress. but it's in part because those of us who have had the great privilege of seeing this job up close and know how difficult it is and it's not just because i
watched my husband take a $300 billion deficit and turn it into a $200 billion surplus and 23 million new jobs were created and incomes went up for everybody. everybody. african-american incomes went up 33%. and it's not just because i worked with george w. bush after 9/11. and i was very proud that when i told him what the city needed, what we needed to recover, he said you've got it and he never wavered. he stuck with me. and i have worked and i admire president obama. he inherited the worst financial crisis since the great depression. that was a terrible time for our country. >> we have to move along. >> 9 million people lost their jobs. 5 million homes were lost and $13 trillion in family wealth was wiped out. we are back on the right track. he would send us back into recession with his tax plans. >> secretary clinton, we are moving to an audience question. we're almost out of time. >> we have the closest growth
since 1929. >> we're moving on to another question. >> our country has the slowest growth. >> we want to get to the audience. thank you very much both of you. we have another audience question. beth miller has a question for both candidates. >> good evening. perhaps the most important aspect of this election is the supreme court justice. what would you prioritize as the most important aspect of selecting a supreme court justice? >> we begin with your two minutes, secretary clinton. >> you're right. this is one of the most important issues in this election. i want to appoint supreme court justices who understand the way the world really works. who have real life experience, who have not just been in a big law firm and maybe clerks for a judge and then gotten on the bench. maybe they tried some more cases. they actually understand what people are up against because i
think the current court has gone in the wrong direction. and so i would want to see the supreme court reverse citizens united. and get dark unaccountable money out of our politics. donald doesn't agree with that. i would like the supreme court to understand that voting rights are still a big problem in many parts of our country. that we don't always do everything we can to making it possible for people of color and older people and young people to be able to exercise their franchise. i want a supreme court that will stick with roe v. wade and a woman's right to choose and i want a supreme court that will stick with marriage equality. now, donald has put forth the names of some people that he would consider. and among the ones that he has suggested are people who would reverse roe versus wade and reverse marriage equality. i think that would be a terrible mistake and would take us backwards. i want a supreme court that doesn't always side with corporate interests.
i want a supreme court that understands because you're wealthy and you can give more money to something doesn't mean you have any more rights than anybody else. so i have very clear views about what i want to see to tend to change the balance on the supreme court, and i regret deeply that the senate has not done its job and they have not permitted a vote on the person that president obama, a highly qualified person, they've not given him a vote to be able to be have the full complement of nine supreme court justices. i think that was a dereliction of duty. i hope that they will see their way to doing it, but if i am an so fortunate enough as to be president, il immediately lid move to make sure that we fill that. we have nine justices on behalf of our people. >> you're out of time. mr. trump? >> justice scalia, great judge. died recently. and we have a vacancy.
i am looking to appoint judges very much in the mold of justice scalia. i'm looking for judges, and i've actually picked 20 of them. so that people would see highly respected, highly thought of, and actually very beautifully reviewed by just about everybody. but people that will respect the constitution of the united states. and i think that this is so important. also, the second amendment which is totally under siege by people like hillary clinton. they'll respect the second amendment. and what it stands for, what it represents. so important to me. hillary mentioned something about contributions just so you understand. i will have in my race more than $100 million put in of my money, meaning i'm not taking all of this big money from all of these different corporations like she's doing. what i ask is this. i'm putting in more by the time it's finished, i'll have more
than $100 million invested. pretty much self-funding. we're raising money for the republican party and we're doing tremendously on the small donations. $61 average or so. i ask hillary, why doesn't she make $250 million by being in office? she used the power of her office to make a lot of money. why isn't she funding not for $100 million but why don't you put $10 million or $20 million or $25 million into your own campaign? it's $30 million less for special interests that will tell you exactly what to do and it would be a nice sign to the american public. why aren't you putting some money in. you've made a lot of it because of the fact you've been in office. made a lot of it while you were secretary of state. why aren't you putting money into your own campaign, i'm curious. >> we're going to get on to one more question. >> the question was about the supreme court. i want to quickly say, i respect the second amendment. but i believe there should be comprehensive background
collection and we should close the gun show loophole and closs the online loophole. >> we have one more question, mrs. clinton. >> we have one more question from ken bone about energy policy. ken? >> what steps will your energy policy take to meet our energy needs? while at the same time, reminding environmentally friendly and minimizing it job loss for fossil power plant workers? >> mr. trump. i think it's such a great question because energy is under siege by the obama administration. under absolutely siege. the epa, environmental protection agency, is killing these energy companies. and foreign companies are now coming in buying our -- buying so many of our different plants and then rejigering the plant so that they can take care of their oil. we are killing, absolutely killing our energy business in this country. i'm all for alternative forms of energy including wind, including
secretary of defense here tonight. we know last week he made a surprise announcement at his first thank you rally saying yes he's indeed choosing general james mattis for defense secretary. but the fact that two will be up on stage together, certainly notable, especially given that is the military friendly town. so donald trump hoping to cash in on the energy here almost to validate his pick for secretary of defense. and we know trump has many thank you tours and rallies ahead. just two this week alone and thursday he'll be in iowa and friday in michigan. >> you heard him taking credit for what he said is a $50 billion investment by softbank. what are you learning about this? >> reporter: i have to say not a lot of detail coming from the trump transition team or the company tonight. but certainly a little
showmanship on the part of the president elect today really trotting out on the ceo of the company and trump towers there before cameras gathered. contours of the deal are $50 billion investment in the u.s. by this tech firm, softbank, saying that could create about 50,000 jobs, new jobs here in the u.s. but the timing of the detail, how it was brokered, when it was formally brokered still very unclear tonight. it is notable that in october this company announced plans with the backing of saudi arabia for a hundred billion in new investments across the world in tech companies so is still very unclear if that is part of this or a separate deal. >> thank you very much sunland. the money already raised so far and the fast vast majority is from saudi arabia. "outfront" now retired u.s. army major general. and some other great people.
phillip, let me start with you. it is a very significant event tonight. this is obviously going to be big for donald trump. but to have general mattis by his side, a very significant. so far he's announced several cabinet picks. none has he given this star power of appearing side by side with him. >> michael flynn is going to be his proposal for national security advisor. i was with him on the campaign trail with some regularity. but first time we've seen one of the the cabinet picks do. this mattis is generally seen as one of the more obvious acceptable candidates for the party as well. so this is not someone that needs to be bolstered. >> donald trump is incredible
right guy who's in charge of the defense department. >> i find this very reassuring. for those critical of trump for the right or left concerned about how he would be as commander in chief this -- we should all be behind this waiver. we should all be encouraging the senate to give this waiver. base want competent, serious people in this administration. and donald trump has chosen an exceptionally competent and serious person. jim mattis, is one of the most revered generals of his generation. a big thought leader. an amazing following in the pentagon and with the military. and he has some views that differ with trump. so the fact that donald trump is willing to put this leader out, side by side with him. i don't think he's building him up. i think he's making a statement that these are the sorts of people that are going to populate my national security team. >> different than him on water boarding. general mattis doesn't support it. >> different on russia. >> multiple, multiple places. tonight donald trump is going to walk out.
saying he's not going to vote for this waiver. this issue is a very important point in american politician -- >> zo and so o you are going to have obviously him trumpeting general mattis. general mat sis going to speak and it will be interesting to see how how long he speaks for. and then trump is no doubt going to talk about this $50 billion investment. it is not an investment yet was a they don't even necessarily have the money raised so it is very unclear. what we understand is that $50 billion softbank says they are going to invest in the united states. trump tweeted masa, softbank in japan is willing to invest. masa said he would never do this if we had not won the election. as the stunning number. >> what we're going to see. donald trump as we all know by
now is unconventional. this is going to be an unconventional presidency with an unconventional president. he's the only one in -- of the 45 presidents 44 people. grover cleveland twice. that has a business background. all the others were politicians to some degree. or generals. this is the first person to go directly from the private sector without any stops in politics before that. so you are going to see a lot of this kind of thing as we go through here. and his businessman's mind working. now sure is he going to use it to political advantage? yes. but it is going to help him without doubt. >> so here is my question about this. when i saw the $50 billion. i said i don't get it. and i still don't get it. because there is a a lot of questions here. not all of it's been raised. the part that has been raised, comes from saudi arabia. which historically trump wouldn't want a -- >> let me stop you. you are trying to take several
months later said well they weren't as shovel ready as we thought. >> at least he said something. let's see if donald trump said well that 50 billion is only 3 billion and we weren't able to invest it there. >> what if they are 2u8 able to get it done. >> i don't think the media will -- >> no i'm sure of that. >> there are a couple of things that concern me. the first i worked under commerce secretary ron brown and he announced deals likes this all the time. first of all they were american companies, to announce these deals where they would bring american jobs. it is fine that -- and it is good for him from a marketing perspective is this is really going greet 50,000 jobs. we don't know that yeet. >> whether it is true are -- >> but the reason the commerce ask or the president announced these deals is because they actually had something do with
it. did trump have anything to do with this deal? and is he going make any money off this deal? is he invested at all through a business partnership or anything in this company? we have no clue. that is what concerns me. >> we can all agree, this isn't a bad thing. it is probably at the min -- >> -- >> -- questidebate how much but is cannot be the seoul focus of the economic strategy. he's going to have to deal with le loopholes and the others. without that announce it is deals is not sufficient. but announcing the deals isn't a bad thing. >> -- not a bad thing per se but as the it is a bad thing if it is not more than shoemenship.
i. >> the leader here of this company joust everyone understands he says i'm go doing raise a hundred billion, biggest fund every. and in the process of raidsing it. and 40 billion comes from saudi arabia. that actually is highly relevant in this country. when you look at the merger and whether it is going to be approved. if you are a chinese company bag in you generally don't get this approved. saudi arabia, i think a lot of people would be critical of. >> this is so nebulous that donald trump is getting up and saying more jobs and we'll see what happens. i think it is worth noting that on softbank's part there is showmanship as well. but this is a company that owns a stake in sprint that was trying to figure out how to do this merger earlier this year. and seems very likely, wall street journal reporting seems likely they are going to try this again under the trump
administration. there are politics all over the place here. we'll see how it shakes out in terms of money in terms of jobs but this is not a benif sent gentlemen coming to the united states saying here i give you all these jobs for no reason. >> up next, donald trump live with general mat i both going to speak and then trump and his battle today with boeing. he came out and slammed frankly america's biggest exporter over air force one. and trump's choice for national security advisor under fire for spreading wild conspiracy theories. should trump dump michael flynn? and the breaking news. live pictures of the protesters gathering at texas a&m campus this hour. you see them. a white supremacist is speaking there tonight and we'll go there live.
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donald trump demanding the defense department cancel a contract with boieing for the nw presidential planes. >> it is out of control. it is going to be over $4 billion for the air force one program. and i think it is ridiculous. i think boeing is doing a bit of a number. we want fwoeng make a lot of money but not that much money. >> boeing releasing a statement which reads in part. we're not sure where he's getting that number from. right now boeing only has a contract for design and development of the new air force one. boeing is at the mercy of donald trump in a lot of ways here. that is part of the reality. however they are the biggest exporter from the united states. the second biggest defense contractor in this fight. who wins? >> well i think they are to some respect to the mercy of the donald trump. but there is a whole procuring process that exists in the pentagon. you can't just sign a way a
massive contract. and also major repercussions for the u.s. economy if another defense contractor replaced a lot of the foreign business or u.s. business boeing would get. obviously this is probably not a good idea. i think tonight trump being up there with mattis, very good. fantastic image. trump and pence meeting with the congressional leaders, pooirn and mitch mcconnelling talk about this things day want to get past, good images. tweets like this not a great image. i would stronger recommend the ladder not the former. >> let's go through the time line here because i think this is very interesting. look, the chicago tribune today wrote up some comments that the boeing ceo said about donald trump. the ceo said these on friday but a appeared this morning for the first time in print. the chicago tribune. about the ceo of boeing, he's
suggesting the trump teen and congress back off the 2016 anti-trade rhetoric and perceived threats to punish other countries with higher tariffs tariffs fes. that was 7:30 a.m. at 8:52 trump tweets boeing is building a brand new 747 air force one for future presidents. cancel order. >> we saw last week he had this random out of blue tweet about flag burning. turned out he had been watching fox news and kids burning flags on fox news. he as a history of responding to things he's engaged with in the media through twitter. the problem is this causes boeing's stock price to plummet $2 before markets opened it. recovered by the end of the day and actually closed a little higher.
but now cnbc is reporting there are people who are trying to figure out a algorithm to buy or sell stock based on donald trump tweets. these are -- if he's doing it because something he didn't like the chicago tribune, that's iffy. >> not the first time he's taken on an american company. ford. verizon. not the first time he's done this. the issue we have to decide is whou everybody responds. he's clearly going to continue to do this. it is not reasonable for us to believe that suddenly on january 20th, this is going stop. we have to decide how we look at this. and people have to decide what to take on board and how to deal -- >> but if i take a step back and i said how would someone at that rally see this? they might say if the costs are out of control with $4 billion. cancel that order. this is exactly the kind of cost
control i want in washington. >> the folks in that crowd will respond exactly that way. and they will also respond and say i've been on air force one. it is a wonderful aircraft. 20 people can take a shower at once. >> twenty -- >> i'm being facetious. my point is it can can withstand electromagnetic pulses. this is a phenomenal piece of --. but there are cost. 4 billion i think the president elect is probably correct. let's put some green eye shades on and look into that. but that crowd is going to respond very favorable. and he's also not the first president elect that when he opens his mouth there are going to be markets that move accordingly. so it is going to happen. >> if problem that millions of americans have with washington d.c. and the government is that this kind of situation where we're overpaying -- air force i
mean is terribly symbolic. but i mean we could -- i used to work on the house budget committee. and we could watts through thousands of pages of things where there are cost overruns galore. this is part of the problem. so they are looking at this and saying yes. this is exactly what i want the president -- >> they also say it is dated. i needs to be updated. the greatest country in the world with a plane that reflects that. >> absolutely true. but there was a story in the post yesterday how the defense department sought out places they could cut money and then buried the report and said they didn't want to make the cuts. donald trump could have tweeted about that this morning. the question is why is donald trump tweeting about boeing? we don't know. it effected boeing. it effects boeing stockeds and yes spin will be good -- >> -- >> as we all know donald trump fights back. and i think one of the the problems with the bush 4 administration.
>> so you are saying he did do it -- >> well it wouldn't surprise me in the least. one of the problems was all these opponents were out there with bush live and all this thing and the white house didn't fight back because apparently the president felt it was beneath him to get in all of this stuff etc. donald trump isn't going to do that. he's not going to sit there and let somebody attack his trade policies and just be quiet. >> and jeffrey is right. history supporters will eat this up. but this is the problem that donald trump has not yet understood. he's not just the president now of the people who supported him who got him i elected. he's the president who even now the 2.5 million people that hillary clinton is winning by the popular vote. he has to prove he wants to be the president for everybody. they eat this up at this rally but from the standpoint of those people who were terrified of electing him. this underscores where the terror exists, because he's lashing out. >> he's taking issue with the
american people. >> his supports are. >> to -- everybody should have been gotten behind that because that was atrocious. all with me next. waiting for donald trump on stage for the first time with s pick for defense secretary. that is going start any moment in now. the motorcade arriving in fayetteville and calls for trump to dump his choice for national security advisor. he and his son who his is chief of staff and --. >> and students at a texas university this hour banning together protesting a neo-nazi who was speaking tonight on the campus just around the corner where they were. we'll be there life. we'll be back. ! as close as two friends trying to annihilate each other can be. ahh, interception! that's because with fingerhut.com we can shop over 700,000 items from brand names like samsung, keurig and sony. go to fingerhut.com to get low monthly payments and the credit you deserve. and get great stuff like this awesome flat screen tv. [doorbell rings] fingerhut man's here! oooh! maybe he brought you some defense.
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controversy is here. some of these tweets proving to be so controversial and damaging for both michael flynn and his son. >> and these tweets are not isolated. part of a series from both father and son that have pushed conspiracy theory, islam phobia, anti-semitic retweets but let's look at the couple of them. fist the son, michael flynn jr. one he tweeted on sunday about a false news story about a d.c. pizzeria and on sunday. the left seems to forget podesta e-mails and the many coincides tied to it. this is just outright b.s. for lack of a better term. i had my son's birthday party in this pizzeria. and yet he stuck to it. let's go to the father, michael flynn who's the nominee to be
national security advisor. that is tweet he sent out one week before election day. you decide. nypd blows whistle on new hillary e-mails money laundering, sex crimes with children etc. must read. tweeting out a fake story about the democrat nominee one week to election day. so serious allegations and to be clear part of a pattern, erin. >> so that is what is causing this controversy. but now what about the role of michael flynn's son. earlier today they said he had no role with the transition. but clearly that is not the case. >> right. he's now been removed. we know he had a rolle because he's been removed from that role. the way it is described and vice president pence described it this way and others i've speaken
with is he was basically a scheduler and did administrative work for his father. enough where they requested a security clearance for him, which implies serious work. but that process now stopped and he's no longer in that role. to be clear michael flynn senior, something to interrupt him at this point becoming the closest national security advisor to the president. >> thank you jim. is it time for donald trump to say all right, forget it. >> first of all he want. these with positions to the executive office of the president and there is really no way to force his hand on this. i think it is important here -- by the way these tweets are atrocious so i'm not going defend the tweets. it is important to separate michael flynn from his son. his son was doing the stuff and it looks as if michael flynn was doing, senior, pushing the bad tweets was in the con attention
of the chain. campaign things get pretty emotional. get heated. may make sense for michael flynn senior to address that at some point and say he's turning off his twitter account and move on but in terms of saying there be some kind of mechanism to force the commander in chief's hand in choosing security advisor i don't care that is going happen. >> and he worked with michael flynn. you know him very well. he's going the man next to donald trump. the first voice donald trump here's on national security. he's promoted these false news stories as if they were true. you say during the campaign but he still did those things. how much does this concern you? is he the right man for the job? >> the concern really is one of judgment and contextually how are you going to perform. i know mike flynn were well.
he's a tremendous asset. the president has a personal relationship with his national security advisor. that guy can do what he wants him to do. and we can't be captured by what previous national security advisors have done. if you look at others, that is about necessarily the model this president would have in store for mike flynn. he might want him to be a bomb thrower. he may say mike, i don't want you to bring all this together. i'm going to get jim mattis do that. for example. what i want you to do is poke holes in all of these good ideas. because you can speak to menessly, you are a provocative guy and i want you to kick this stuff around before it gets to me. >> if he had that kind of strategy i would feel a tiny bit better. i don't think he puts that kind
of thought into the people he has around him. and that is why this is so freakin' scary. because this is the guy who will have donald trump ears ear. donald trump has proven he acts out a lot of times based on who the last person he had in his ear was. and the fact that this guy, michael flynn and himself tweeted and retweeted flagrant outright conspiracy theories and lies about hillary clinton, about the obamas. is this someone who can't tell truth from a lie? or is he ideology that whacko that he actually believe this is stuff. either way it is very terrifying. >> i agree with a lot of what you are saying but when you say who's this guy going to be around him? who's going to be advising him. like mike pompeo. leader in congress on national security issues leading the cia. jim mattis. leading the pentagon. >> those guys are the last one's
whispering in donald trump's ear. clearly that is how he acts. >> we're going take a brief break. live picture as we're awaiting donald trump just a couple of moments away from this big rally where he'll be speaking to voters across the country. and more breaking news. we're going to texas. protesters gathering on the campus of the texas a&m. there is a white supremacist speaking there tonight and protesters gathers en masse.
find new roads at your local chevy dealer. standing by for donald trump. president elect speaking at a rally. his pick for secretary of defense jamie mattis going to be with him. they are there now. so any moment biel we'll be going to fayetteville where they will be speaking. trump will introduce general mattis and then donald trump. we'll bring it all to you live. at this hour in the meantime, outrage over a white supremacist speaking on campus in texas, half a country away. live pictures of protesters gathering. rich spencer, he's been cheering trump's victory saying it's emboldened him and empowered him and he's done so using anti-semitic language. >> hail trump, hail our people.
hail victory. chau [ cheers and applause ] sa sara ganim "outfront" right now. obviously a lot of protesters out to protest in this evening. >> reporter: that's right. these are aggie students. texas a&m students who are upset that richard spencer is here. they call his rhetoric hate speech and you can see there are several hundred of them out here protesting and the president of the universities greaagrees wit hem. but felt like he couldn't stomp on the first amendment and kick him out. he was invited here by a private citizen. it is a private event. even still these people are very upset. they are angry and i have to tell you erin, after sitting
down with richard spencer myself today it is easy to understand why. >> would you describe yourself as a white supremacist. >> i'm not a white supremacist, no. >> but there is really no mistaking his racist message. >> hail trump, hail our people. hail victory. >> reporter: no matter how much he tries to talk around it. >> the fact is only white people can support what we call western civilization. >> reporter: richard suspensor is the self professed leader of what we call the alt-right movement. he comes across as polished and steams to be trying to dial back the neo nazi imagery he's been recognized for. so how would you go through a process of removing people who are not white is this. >> they have come here and therefore they could go home. you can go home again. there are ways of whether it is a direct payment.
>> what would you say though if mexican americans or african americans said hey we're going pay all the white people to leave and go back to europe? >> interesting prospect. item very flexible. >> obviously that is not like toy to happen. and spencer is even banned from traveling to most european countries because of his views. >> reporter: you studied history, right? a lot of of people the reason they don't like you is because they have studied history too and they see a lot of the things that you say as being very similar to hitler and other leaders who were responsible for mass genocide. >> i find this all very amusing. and this is the social justice so i hav so voyeur who will say literally hitler. >> -- >> no i think hitler in a way now is history. he did many things that are absolutely terrible that i would never support.
>> reporter: we're told there are only a couple dozen people inside the event space where he's going begin speaking in a few minutes and some of those are probably protester, students inside the event space. so it is hard to see how many people he actually drew in. but it is never more apparent than when you were out here koufring a story like this how divided feelings are right now. >> is a remarks thank you very much. my gapanel is back. jeff what is your reaction when you hear some of of nose comments from that young man and hear him say donald trump has made him feel emboldened to come out and say this things. >> the head of the --. that didn't make hillary clinton a communist or the heir to joseph stalin. this guy is a racist. tloz other way to say this. and to be perfectly candid i think the media is giving him
way more attention than he deserves. the rally that was shown at the begin, i think there was something at the washington post somebody said like there were like 235 people in the room. this guy is so far on the fringe of american politics. he has nothing do with donald trump i don't care how much he talks about it. and donald trump doesn't want anything do with him. or should. >> i think the challenge here is not that there is a racist speaking to college campus and college students are upset. when i was in college that happened all the time. the collage is it is happening in the condition text of what is going on in 2016. skmi recognize you are a big donald trump supporter but i think a lot of people who oppose donald trump particularly people of color who do not see what he's done before and after the election as reassuring that he's distancing himself from people like spencer. the reason why, whenever he's pressed on it he seems to grudgingly. >> and spencer is not alone.
this is not one guy. >> but trump's response has not been normally we might expect a president or president elect say something like what's happening there is abhorrent and repulsive and i wish this guy would shut his mouth but donald trump's tendency is to -- >> -- >> it has to be dragged out of him. that is the point. >> he read it off the teleprompter and we all need -- >> -- >> paying way too much attention to these kind of things. >> that is the conundrum here though. jeffrey. do you pay attention to them and therefore shine the spotlight of awfulness or on it? do you ignore them with the potential that it festers and y grows? which is it? >> it is not going to fester and grow. >> we're paying attention but people of color who take a different -- >> there are no people of color in this country phillip. there are only americans and therein lies the problem. >> are you truly saying we need to divide people by race in this country. >> i think the people of the
target have a very different perpetrative. >> what this guy is about -- >> -- expect things from the president. >> what this is about is identity politics which i have said repeatedly a is racist. and you have hillary clinton and others separating people by race and there is -- >> jeffrey, the reality is the following. you as a white american have had a very different experience in this country than me as a latina. i am sure people do not come up to you to say you should be deported. your children should be deported because they're anchor babies. >> they did to my other ancestors. >> this president has an obligation. the fact of the matter is he campaigned with a wink and a nudge to them because he never ever said and has yet to say -- >> your party -- >> [ inaudible ].
-- apologize for slavery yet. can we get on with this? >> he's yet to say in the international speech which is what he should do which is what a real leader would do or at least if a op ed to say definitively the white supremacists and everybody else who felt i was speaking to in the campaign is absolutely wrong. he should say it proactively and strongly ever moment he has the opportunity to do that. until he does that you will have latino, african american, muslims, everybody who felt degraded by his campaign. >> that don't want to view themselves as americans but want to divide themselves by color or race and it is wrong. >> i feel like i am as american as you jeffrey. >> exactly. that is the point. >> but i am not treated as ones by the people who feel emboldened by your president elect. >> but there are always people like this in american life. >> and there should be lead who
are speak against it. and donald trump has not done us. >> he denounced david duke in 2000. >> during this campaign he did it begrurjingly after tour fiems. >> -- [indiscernible]. >> half the population. >> he was asked to say no to david duke. he refused until the fourth time he was asked to. >> he did it decades ago. >> although -- >> when is the last time hillary clinton denounced the ku klux klan in the last four hours? my point is we're playing a game here. >> this is not a game. >> it is not a dumb game. >> donald trump eats goal and his goal as it should be would be to be the president of the united states of america. half of the country didn't vote for him. a lot of people would point out he lost the popular vote as well. people of color a v a different perspective on the president elect than you and i do. yes they are americans as well. >> do you think ben carson has a different opinion because he's black? >> that is true.
-- >> how about the majority of people of color. >> the president elect if he wants to stul lead a unified united states where everybody feels confident in the decisions he's making he needs to do better than what he's doing now. >> no question. >> and what he's done is ben carson is now going to be the secretary of housing and urban development. that is his nomination. he's putting ben carson in there. the things he's doing. the actions he's take -- >> i think you will see other names emerging. different cabinet -- subcabinet. >> that will be -- >> it will be diverse. look i'm listening to this debate and i sort of agree with both sides. i agree with you that more needs to be done by the leaders of our country, including donald trump to speak out against this. to make a point that the leadership of this country does not stand or traffic in that stuff. i'm not -- we should -- but donald trump is not a racist. we shouldn't create these characters of im. he's not a racist.
in pursuit of the presidency he's probably trafficked in some of this stuff. but he's not a racist. and in that sense i think we all should right now take a deep breath and not give so much coverage to these nut cases are that sucking up so much -- >> nut kus cases. >> the president elect who gives any oxygen to racists is not something that people who are the target of the race's' actions are going to be comfortable. >> -- al sharpton who's been in the obama white house according to your paper 72 times. hello. is that not trafficking to the racists. >> al sharpton is -- >> he's anti-semiite. >> we were talk about the president elect donald trump. that's ule. >> we were talk about the richard spencer. >> donald trump has just arrived here at this rally. he's going to be going on stage at the moment. donald trump is going to come out. going to speak and then he's going to introduce general jim mat i his nominee for secretary
of defense. general mattis will speak for a few minutes we're not sure how long and actually that could be one of the the most interesting things of the night is lounge he speaks for. and then donald trump is going to speak to voters. thousands of them are there. people who vote forward donald trump to give him that resounding victory in north carolina. and general marks this is a crucial evening for donald trump because he's doing this thank you tour. all americans are going to be listening to him. this is the second one of these but the first one where he's appeared with someone else. and he's appearing with someone else who's seen as -- respected in a bipartisan manner. seen as a real leader among generals in the country. someone whose not controversial. which is significant. i think with president elect donald trump and jim mattis together on the stage they both will be able to bolster themselves in a very positive way by being in the presence of the other. mr. trump gets as much out of
this as jim mattis does. this is not singularly a spotlight on jim mattis. this is an opportunity to put the president elect next to a highly regarded warrior that has done some immense heavy lifting for us in the course of an entire lifetime but most recently during these wars in iraq and afghanistan. >> and as we wait sunland is there. what is the mood like there? thousands of people there who are waiting to hang on he and general mattis's' every word. >> that's right erin. well people are certainly anxious given this rally is starting over an hour late. but we do know the president elect has just arrived and he'll appear on stage with general mat n is in a few minutes. so the mood here is all the trap, of a campaign rally we would have seen during the campaign. you also have some homemade
signs notable that we just saw one sign in the crowd that said expose the pizza gate scandal, that being a big story in washington d.c. this week about a washington pizzeria being the subject of many conspiracy theory, fake news stories. interesting that is trickling its way here into the trump rally. but people certainly anxious to hear him speak. we know this could turn into a pep rally of sorts for his nominee of secretary of defense jamie mattis appearing together on stage in a few minutes. >> and other thing i think you are going to have here is safe to assume. is we know trump will be taking a victory lap for saying he's got another 50,000 jobs on his tab. >> counting them up. carrier first and now this another 50,000. and let's wait to see if they actually arrive or not. and i'm trying not to be cynical or skeptical nor expressing
disbelief. i'm merely saying realistically, where is this 50 billion coming from sno when is it goin' to be invested and which jobs will be created. >> and donald trump has the political momentum. he understands the showmanship. you announce carrier and then the next thing. it is steady drum beat now. >> he's very good at getting attention on the things he would like to have attention on. and quite frankly the carrier issue in this prospect of having 50,000 more jobs that is something he deserves to get some attention on. these are the sorts of things a lot of voters were looking are when they vote forward donald trump. and the fact he's doing this a month after he won the election i think is sort of the impressive thing it is warranted for him to come out and talk about even though the jobs don't yet exist. >> and can e he take the spotlight away from general flynn? >> absolutely. >> thinks he can sail through controversy on general flynn's
peddling fake news and then just move? >> he's a mars master of this. and tonight he deserves credit for what's doing. because by featuring general mattis it takes the spotlight off his other problems. and generally mattis is worthy of that kind of praise. bipartisan support. supports across the military. the military veterans community. has taken different positions from donald trump. and he's an impressive individualem and the fact he's giving him this kind of air time is something. >> and when you see general mattis come out and one would presume he's going to be very straight in terms of what he talked about. and then tonight donald trump take two. another opportunity to reach out for the people who did not vote for him. >> i do actually and i agree about what was said here about general mattis's background and service to the country. he's a kind of person i hope donald trump actually listens to, more than the others donald
trump has around him. especially michael flynn. moving forward i think the question is what is he going to do with these folks? is he going to take their advice? and more importantly tonight we've seen situations where you think the focus is going to be on, for example, tonight general mattis but that the focus becomes donald trump and the focus becomes something completely different than what it was supposed to be. so we'll see. >> if he doesn't cake the counsel and the input from these guys mar yarks they will be gone. they will walk. >> good. >> no no. these are some incredibly gifted focus. >> and -- >> zblern. >> your point. this is unusual in the sense. secretary of defense state and attorneys general are generally not taken out to political rallies of this nature. by doing it -- >> donald trump being introduced as you see waving to the crowd getting ready to walk out. as i said we anticipate he'll
so we haven't had a chance to digest it. but the attorney general in his confirmation hearings was very clear with a one-word answer when asked by a senator whether he had contact with the russians in any way, shape, or form. he said no, period. no condition, no modification. so obviously that turns out to not be accurate there is no reason to believe that jeff sessions in the confirmation hearing was trying to hide something. he may simply have forgotten. but it does mean two things. number one, it adds to the incredible weight of evidence that the administration is not credible on these issues. remember a couple of weeks ago when we heard that michael flynn was talking to the russian ambassador simply to wish him merry christmas. and of course that turns out not to be true. and michael flynn is no longer national security adviser. so this white house has a very, very significant credibility problem. and it's with respect to attorney general sessions, what this means, and again, it's too early to say that he perjured himself or that he meant to do this. but it very clearly indicates that he must now recuse himself just the way the former attorney
general made is simply not true. this is of course how mike flynn went down, right? the deputy attorney general said mike flynn has said something to the vice president about his phone calls with the russian ambassador, which is simply not true. that opens the possibility that russia might therefore seek to blackmail the national security adviser. so you see people throughout the government, and leaks are a problematic thing. but they're raising their hands and saying wait a minute, what we're hearing out of the white house is simply not consistent with the facts that i know. >> congressman at one of your town hall meetings during the break, someone who was there wrote this about one of your answers. as an answer to a question about demagoguery, he said he studied aught theirtarians, and it starts with the erosion of the judicial system and the media, as well adds the dispelling of false information. then all it takes is a terrorist attack and he believes that's inevitable, followed by martial law. no one is linking your words
here with donald trump. but my question to you, you're obviously speaking to a question as an educated man. do your thoughts go there more often these days? >> well, brian, i was responding to a lot of people in my town hall who made the very accurate observation that when a leader seeks to cloud the truth, when a leader seeks to make -- disorient you about what is true and what is not true, when a leader seeks to damage the institutions and the civic associations of a country, the media, the judiciary, i mean this goes back to de tocqueville. that is the way that that leader erodes democracy and becomes autocratic. i was also trying to dispel what i heard in town hall meetings, which we're all hearing in town hall meetings, that this administration is fascist and they're inevitably going to wind up being authoritarian. and my point was simply watch for those signs. let's just stop the inflammatory language. but let's be sensitive to the fact that a lot of what is happening here, and let me offer
this as a thought. what do the cia, the media and the fbi all have in common? these are people -- these are institutions who imperfect as though they may be, their essential mission is to get at the truth. and of course the trump administration has gone to war with all of those institutions whose essential mission is to get at the truth. and we as americans, republicans and democrats should just be very, very concerned about that, and very careful about what happens in the future. for example, if there is some sort of terrorist event, or if there is belligerence abroad that creates the atmosphere for this administration to take additional steps to concentrate power or additional steps that might be considered autocratic. >> congressman jim himes, fourth termer from the district of connecticut and democrat on the telligence committee. thank you, congressman, very much for joining us tonight. >> thank you, brian. >> i appreciate it. over to andrea mitchell. you have some of the response tonight, the pushback from the trump administration on these stories we've been talking
about. >> especially on the sessions story. now specifically on that, a spokeswoman for attorney general sessions said there was absolutely nothing misleading about his answer. last year the senator had over 25 conversations with foreign ambassadors as a senior member of the armed services committee. she lists the country. then she says he was asked during the hearing about communications between russia and the trump campaign. not about meetings he took as a senator and a member of the armed services committee. however, at the same time, adam schiff, who you know is the top democrat on house intelligence says if the reports are accurate that attorney general sessions, a prominent surrogate for donald trump, met with ambassador kislyak during the campaign and failed to disclose that fact during his confirmation, it's essential he recuse himself. this is not even a close call. it is a must. so things are moving apace. >> michael mcfaul, you served a mittedly the last democratic
president as ambassador to russia. having heard, taken in our conversation tonight and sampled the news breaking on this front, how would you recommend with your knowledge of washington as it is, how would you recommend this get pulled apart and looked at and investigated? what's the vehicle to your mind? >> i believe it has to be a bipartisan independent commission, not unlike what we had after september 11th. i think it's good news that the house intelligence committee has decide move forward. and i saw the parameters they put out. that's a good sign. but at the end of the day, having it outside of partisan circles, that it can be investigated and really dig down. you know, as i read all these stories, it's fantastic stories that really people are doing incredible work to get more and more news to us all. but it's also unnamed sources. it's all people deep in the intelligence services. and we need those people to go
from being leakers to witnesses. we need to know the truth. well need to know the name for instance, of who met with whom in europe. i know, you know, that was tell me a lot if i knew the names, let alone the content of those conversations. and another piece of this, lots of senior obama administration officials, some of whom are my close friends know a lot about this story. an independent investigation would give them the opportunity, the commission would give them the opportunity to also investigate and question those people about what they know and what they don't know. >> former ambassador michael mcfaul, thank you very much for becoming -- for being on our broadcast, being part of this conversation tonight, as always. chris matthews, you were talking about sourcing. the ambassador raised the same thing. these anonymous sources can only last so long. >> yeah, and i think it's always fascinating to try to figure out whose giving us the information.
and i was taken with this, because -- >> it jumps out. >> the attorney general's office is basically the justice department's heavily laden with civil servants, of course. but they wouldn't know about his contacts prior to becoming attorney general. the people that would know and would actually offer this up to a report worry be people who had come to the justice department with him. and that's extraordinary. and we're hearing a lot more about political appointees as sources. andrea knows more about this. but political sources, political appointees ratting out, if you want to put it in this vernacular, their own people is pretty extraordinary at this point early in the administration. >> i'm just going to -- we're going to point out that wherever kislyak went, he was being listened to by our counter intelligence officials from the fbi. >> right. >> and so those people would know whom he met with. and that would be another source of information. >> at the fbi. for that -- do you this attribution to justice department officials would cover
fbi, or would it be that misleading on purpose? >> i think it would be an accurate description. >> 80 would be accurate, of course, but it would be sleading e idea is enforcement officials and counter intelligence officials are something that would give you little indication, i would think? >> unless the people were nervous. >> this sort of puts it back to his people. i do think this whole question of trying to find, and this is something the american government hasn't figured out yet. how do you find within a government that has been elected and appointed through a confirmation process someone extraneous to that who is some sort of arc angle figure that is going to come in and find justice in a better way than somebody who is part of the political process? and we've gone to these extremes, archie cox and people like that and trying to find people, lawrence walsh. inevitably you find out later they do have political connections. archie cox was the top speech writing manager of the whole kennedy campaign. you know, you find out these people are connected politically.
>> it's not one person, if i could. i was the executive director of the commission on the prevention of wmd proliferation and terrorism. a horrible long name. but it australia a child of the 9/11 commission to look at wmd and terrorism and how we could prevent terrorists from getting wmd. you need a bipartisan commission, republicans and democrats selected by the leadership of the house and the senate to do the work. because, honestly, even the senate, the intelligence committee, the select intelligence committee for 9/11, even they were politicized. and number one, they couldn't share everything for intelligence reasons. but number two, they were because of their positions constrained. and the president could always say to the people in his party, why are you guys doing that? if you have a truly independent commission, then paul ryan can't get those phone calls in the middle of the night from president trump saying why are you letting those investigators say that or do that. he can say that's an independent commission. >> the 9/11 commission is the model. >> tremendous burden on any one person.
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>> i do have a relationship. and i can tell you that he's very interested in what we're doing here today. >> i've never spoken to him. i don't know anything about him other than he will respect me. >> i with us in moscow a couple months ago. you know, i own the miss universe pageant. they treated me so great. putin even sent me a president. beautifupresent with a beautiful note. >> i got to know him very well. we were on "60 minutes." >> we did "60 minutes" together. by the way, not together, together. meaning he was probably shot in moscow and i was shot in new york. >> i spoke directly and indirectly with president putin who could not have been nicer. >> i don't know putin. i never met putin. this is not my best friend. >> just some of the questions and answers over the last few years. two weeks ago "the new york times" reported there are four people, trump associates who the fbi is closely examined over potential contacts with russian
intelligence officials during the campaign season. all four men have strongly denied improper contact with russian officials. although they aren't telling all of them the same story. tonight our own chris hayes introduces us to those four, starting with former trump campaign adviser roger stone. >> i'm wondering how you would characterize your relationship to the president? >> a friend. a friend of trump, fot. >> trump associate one, roger stone. long-time gop strategist and self-described dirty trickster with a tattoo of richard nixon on his back and a history of inflammatory and bigoted statements. roger stone is a close ally of conspiracy theorist alex jones and helped arrange trump's 2015 appearance on jones' show. >> well, roger is a good guy. he is a patriot. and believes strongly in that strong nation, a lot of the things that i believe in.
>> reporter: stone left trump's campaign last august. the campaign says he was fired. he says he wasn't. though he remains an informal adviser. after he was named as an fbi target by "the times", he insisted to me he has absolutely nothing to do with russia. >> i have had no contacts from russians or intermediaries for russians. i have no russian clients, no russian communications. >> it's all a complete sham investigation. >> reporter: trump associate two, carter page. page spent three years in russia working as an investment banker for merrill lynch. that's him speaking at a business school in moscow last july. a few months before that speech, trump told "the washington post" that page was part of his foreign policy team. >> we heard you might be announcing your foreign policy advisory team soon. >> do you want i could give you some of the names? carter page, ph.d. >> reporter: now, however, the white house denies that page had a role in the campaign.
>> carter page is an individual who the president-elect does not know and was put on notice months ago by the campaign. >> reporter: page, who maintains he was part of trump's foreign policy team last week denied covert communications with russia, saying claims to the contrary were planted by the president's enemy. >> yes, i know a lot of people. but i know a lot of people in china, in africa, in middle east. >> so you are completely innocent as not charged? >> this is a complete smear campaign. >> we cannot make russia an enemy. >> reporter: trump associate three, michael flynn. the now former national security adviser resigned last month after revelations he had lied to the vice president about his conversations with the russian ambassador to the united states. >> michael flynn, general flynn is a wonderful man. >> reporter: while he admits discussing sanctions with the russian ambassador during the transition, flynn, like the others denies speaking to russian intelligence during the
campaign. though he was reportedly paid $40,000 for a speech in moscow in 2015 that included a dinner with vladimir putin. in honor of the russian state sponsored tv network rt, where he has made numerous appearances. >> i'm not working for any clients right now other than mr. trump. >> trump associate four, paul manafort. his former campaign manager who worked as a consultant for russian-aligned former ukrainian president victorian kovacico wi yanukovych. manafort denies knowingly speaking to russian intelligence, but it's not like these people wear badges that say i'm a russian intelligence officer. >> paul manafort was replaced long before the election took place. >> our friend chris hayes with that reporting to set up this next conversation. with us tonight pulitzer prize winning investigative journalist david kay johnson who has been delving into the trump
campaign's financial ties with russia. david, we keep saying this is highly unusual, this is unprecedented for a president at the six-week mark to have this much interest and investigation. but how much broader in your mind should this go? >> oh, i think we need to thoroughly and openly investigate donald's 30-year involvement with russians and all the money he has received. to channel richard nixon, people have got to know if their president is compromised. and donald has received hundreds of millions of dollars from the russian oligarchs. he just appointed as his commerce secretary wilbur ross, who is the vice-chairman of one of the biggest banks involved in laundering russian money. the other vice-chairman was an appointee of vladimir putin. a disgraced german banker from deutsche bank right after the
bank was fined $650 million for russian moneylaundering. all of that was laid out by jim henry in a report at my news service d.c. report that well ahead of everybody else's reporting on this on television. and there is a more here that we haven't look at. the icelandic bank scandal traces back. trump's soho hotel into the icelandic bank zma ii iic scand? there is a lot -- >> hey, i'm sorry. there is a ring of bad weather along the east coast of the united states. this got to us last night as well. and between us and rochester, we have a band of bad weather so bad that it is interfering with our ability to talk to david cay johnston by satellite. we apologize for that. we'll take another break and see if we can reestablish.
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right up to 2016,ow much of the questions you rsed before we were interrupted by mother nature would be answered? >> a great deal. we would know where trump is getting money, where he has borrowed money, who he has paid interest to, who his partners are, who the 500 plus business entities he is involved in, what relationships they have. we need to see trump's returns back to the 1990s. the congress can do this under a 1920s law in private. and then we need public hearings about donald's 30 years of involvement with the russians. >> and there is no one to blame but the american people, correct, that we didn't demand of a candidate for president which what has become the modern political standard, and that is you release your tax returns. >> absolutely. and here is the question to ask. why are the republicans so eager to not know what's in the tax returns, as you saw with chairman nunez and others talking about these
investigations? as i said before, you know, quoting nixon, people have got to know their president is not a crook. >> david cay johnston, thank you very much for bearing with us, especially with the bad weather right overhead. david, thank you. >> thank you, brian. >> we've been talking after all about donald trump and vladimir putin. trump has praised vladimir putin, but nbc's chief foreign correspondent richard engel talked to a man who says putin is not worthy of that praise. he is with us again from moscow tonight. richard? >> reporter: well, there is another way of looking at this entire situation, and it is coming up in the conversation that you've been having tonight with all the guests in that it's all about the money. great fortunes have been made in this country, particularly by a small group of individuals around president vladimir putin. and they have proven time and time again they will g to great lengths to protect that money.
communism fell hard in russia. and since it did, business here has been profitable, glamorous, and at times deadly. bill brouter from chicago knows that well. he made and lost a lot of money in russia and is openly accusing the russian government of crimes ranging from robbery to murder. >> they have the resource of a mafia organization with the resources of one of the most powerful countries in the world. >> reporter: to understand how and why what he calls the mafia state was born, he says you have to go back to the dying days of the soviet union when everything in russia was suddenly for sale and at a bargain. he moved to moscow and started buying. >> eventually i went from nothing to running the largest investment fund in the country with $4.5 billion invested in their stock market. >> reporter: but the age of grab all you can and carry couldn't last forever. it ended when a former secret agent, vladimir putin was appointed president.
brouder thought he was the reformer who would save russia from corruption. but pretty soon he says he realized that putin was simply building a power base by enriching loyal oligarchs while crushing others. >> he was selectively picking off his enemies. >> reporter: and eventually brouder's name was add dodd the list. in 2005 he landed at a moscow airport and discovered he wasn't welcome in putin's russia anymore. >> they put me on a plane, deport me back to london and declare me a threat to national security. >> reporter: did they tell you why? >> no. >>. >> reporter: why do you think? >> because i expose corruption. >> reporter: he says his company was soon picked apart. >> i went out and hired the smartest lawyer i could find, a young man named sergei to help me investigate. >> reporter: but when the young lawyer started asking too many questions, he was arrested. >> they put him in cells with no heat, no window panes in december in moscow. so he nearly froze to death.
they chained him to a bed and eight riot guards with rubber batons beat him to death. >> reporter: his horrible death struck a chord in washington, especially among russia hawks like senator john mccain who helped pass the magnitsky act, sanctioning russians who were involved in or profited from the lawyer's death. he showed us neighborhoods where he says russian oligarchs keep their money in high end properties. >> it's bricks and mortar place where bad guys keep their money. >> reporter: now he hopes these so-called safe deposit homes can be seized. brouder spends much of his time and money lobbying for sanctions to be placed on russian businesses. he believes the russians will kill to protect their corrupt businesses. do you have any reason to believe that you could be targeted? >> yeah, i've received numerous threats. they do poisoning. they do car crashes. they do fake suicides. what they like to do is kill
people and have it be plausibly deniable that there was a killing. >> reporter: russian investigations have concluded that the lawyer magnitsky was not murdered. and president putin said that one would think that no one died in american prisons. brian? >> of course there is a dichotomy here. the audience in this country and how we view that story you just aired and the audience where you are. where are the russian people on this topic? >> well, the russiansnow that there is a small circle of oligarchs who are very powerful, who run a lot of businesses, have influence in putin. and there is a different way of looking at this state. if you talk to critics in russia and abroad, they will say you can't think of russia as a normal state, that it is a state that is designed to make money and to protect those fortunes,
that it is a state that consumes a kleptocracy has it has been called that also has a foreign policy. now that is mixed in with national interests. that is mixed in with putin's ambitions as well. so i think russians are fairly ambivalent or fairly confused about how to see their foreign policy. they know there is a powerful group of oligarchs willing to go to great means. but they don't know exactly where the oligarchs' interests end and where this idea that putin wants to expand greater russia begins. >> a lot of history there. wish we had time to delve into it. some of it is in not trying to sell magazines, but the current remnick hart in the new yorker. richard engel, thank you as a always. we also asked marcia guesson to be part of the conversation. she is the author of several books on russia, including the man without a face: the unlikely rise of vladimir putin.
masha, it was your article in "the new york times" that shook some of us and got our attention. the part that really got my attention was the roots of fascism, the things that half to happen, the argument that is made and made again and again and disseminated that is the kind of predicate. can you go into that a little bit? >> so one thing that vladimir putin and donald trump share outside of any conspiracies that may or may not exist is right out there in the open, and that's their attitude toward government, toward democracy and toward the way the countries are constituted. one thing that putin has traffick in harkens back to the 1920s and '30s, and that's the belief that the world is rotten, that everyone is acting in their craven self-interests, that there is no such thing as right and wrong, there are only winners and losers.
and that's very much what we hear trump saying. and, you know, when trump responded to fox interview question about vladimir putin being a killer by saying, you know, is this country so innocent? that was such an extraordinary expression of the kind of moral equivalence and the belief that the world is rotten that we've never seen a president of this country express. >> let me talk about that or ask you about it in macro term, not a moral term. it's said what putin wants is a world order like we had before world war two, when the big powers, the colonial power, the french, the british, the portuguese, the italians attempting it and the russians and the german, big powers left other big pyres lone. you grab yours, i'll grab mine. we'll let a few new people in the block grab a couple like mussolini can grab some territory. putin really wants that back again. he feels constrained because he is constrained. he would love to gobble up the
baltic states again, gobble up in terms of sphere of influence ukraine. but he is constrained by the world order that puts a premium on little countries' rights. little countries have right in the general assembly and the sense of right and wrong. that true? he wants to go back to preworld war ii rules of engagement, rules of power. >> i would disagree a little bit. i think he wants to go to a post world war ii world order. he wants russia to be one of the two great powers. and he wants russia to have the opportunity to expand. his basic instinct is not even so much to grab back everything that the soviet union has, although that would be a good start, but to be expansionist. he is an imperialist. >> what stands in his wanow? >>well, what stands in his way now is the european union. >> right. the new structures. the new structures. >> and the american commitment to nato. >> and she wants to see all that come apart? . >> he wants to see it come apart. he wants to sit down with the
new american president and divvy up the world again. he has been quite explicit about that. he has offered -- he offered this to the obama administration. the bargain of basically helping -- cooperating on isis in exchange for being allowed to do what he wants to do in europe. >> masha gessen, on behalf of chris matthews, thank you very much for joining us tonight. that's sobering stuff you deal with. and helping us in our conversation. masha gessen. >> thank you. >> after a break here, we'll be back with two experts on national security and defense to talk about just what it is we're watching going on here.
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known about in the late days of the obama administration, scattered about as not to be discovered or destroyed in the new days of the trump administration. the other about contacts by the now attorney general jeff sessions, met with the russian envoy twice last year and counters he did not disclose, as "the washington post." and chris you have some reaction to this. >> right. because for months now you and i have covered the interesting battle between elijah cummings, ranking member of the government reform committee in the house and darrell issa who was chair all those months. they were duelling it idealogically and a partisan way back and forth. now they're both on the same front. darrell issa wants an investigation of the whole russian investigation. and tonight elijah cummings is calling for the resignation of the attorney general. there is an interesting sort of watergate whiff to this that republicans are beginning to join with the democrats and calling for investigation, which is very interesting because if you're in a swing district, which has become a swing district for darrell issa, you want to be someone looking for truth.
and i think that's always a safe position. calling for an investigation is always the exciting way to say i'm out there for the people. i want you to have the answers. i want the answers. who doesn't want us to have the answers? that's a position that is much harder to take. keeping secrets. >> so this is how it's playing out politically tonight. we also have a full front of this waiting for our discussion, and that is national security, the military. with us tonight msnbc military analyst tired four-star u.s. army general barry mccaffrey, west point class of '64, combat vietnam, three purple hearts two, silver star, two dscs. he was inducted into the army ranger hall of fame and served as drug czar in the clinton administration. here with us in new york, msnbc terrorism analyst malcolm nance, 35-year veteran of the trade, including naval intelligence, special operations and homeland security, and the author of a very timely new book called "the plot to hack america: how
putin's cyberspies and wikileaks tried to steal the 2016 election." gentlemen, welcome to you both. we were talking to remnick earlier. we all go back to an era of a cold war with russia. we go back to things like missiles and aircraft carriers and the kind of base fear we grew up with. this is so different now. in a way, lower ticket, lower tech. for lack of a double authentication on google, foreign power can hack into the american election and then some. so how have the tools of the battle changed? how much have they changed, barry? >> let me start off by saying i've spent most of my adult life studying the russians. and it's been a good bet as the soviet union came apart in and out of moscow, kiev, mostly arms control dealings, tremendous admiration for the russian
people -- physics, math, ballet, literature, courageous military. they've turned into a criminal oligarchy run by this fellow putin who is a very clever politician. they are a major threat to their neighbors and to u.s. interests. they are dangerous. they're in syria. they've participated in a modest way in murdering a half million people. crimea, they're active inside ukraine. they're a threat to the baltic states. they're actively trying to break up nato, the cornerstone of u.s. national security. and so the whole question of president trump and his relationship with them is unsettling and somewhat unexplicable. >> so general, is it part nomenclature? do we bear some of the blame? should we have been calling this a form of at least electronic warfare with another state? >> well, i listen to mr. remnick
on that point there is no moral equivalence between the agency operating against these authoritarian dictatorships who are a threat to their neighbors. i don't see any moral equivalence between that and trying to destabilize western europe elections and u.s. elections. so i wouldn't start off with saying so what's the difference? the president's statement "we've got killers too" you know is the most unamerican thing i've ever heard come out of the mouth of a president. we're not like the russians. so i think that's probably the wrong way to get into the question. >> malcolm nance, same questions to you. >> well, for the most part, i think that we need to understand what russia is doing strategical strategically. i mean, they are waging a war not just, you know, cyberwar or political warfare. they're waging a war to damage liberal democracy in its
entire entirety. and what they're doing is they have figured out using hybrid warfare. that's this global perception management game. which is actually didn't hack just the dnc. it hacked the psyche of the american people. in this election. >> but relatively low cost as weapons go. >> no cost as weapons go. and it st, you know, all you do is use the organs of the state which they've done brilliantly, and now have allies within the united states government and put those allies into office. and by doing that, they now have an axis against democracy. now they can go after france and germany and the netherlands. >> where there happen to be elections coming up. >> where there just happen to be elections. they are conducting hackings. they are conducting this global perception management war. >> okay, allies. fill that out. they all have allies in the u.s. government. how do you know that? do you know that? >> i think idealogically you can just tell by president trump's
statements about that's essentially the getting t ing t dissolution of nato, upending 70 years of stability being an exceptional nation and being a leader in the global democracy movement. but now aligning himself with russia. again, he can't insult -- he can insult everyone, but he can't insult vladimir putin. and to a certain extent it's almost like a guy who is a gambler in debt who won't talk about his bookie. so something has to be done. >> that has to be established. >> it all has to be established. which is why we need an investigation. >> a lot you've given us here. >> absolutely. it's just a theory from the intelligence perspective. >> the president did defend nato last night. >> he did. >> it's really important. we should hold him to it. >> let me ask barry mccaffrey. barry, you fought author this country. are you still struck by the kind of new language on putin, a president who to be fair has bent over backwards to give
vladimir putin the benefit of the doubt in virtually every public utterance i can remember on the subject. >> clearlyngaging the russians to include mr. putin in an effort to try and reduce a threat to western europe to u.s. national interests is the correct thing to do. but let me also add, this is not all electronic warfare and covert action and little green men. putin has rebuilt fairly high technology forces and is using them actively against -- the ukraine is self-propelled artillery, ground-to-air missiles as we saw shooting down the dutch airliner. these are active threats to the baltic republics, the poles, they are scared. not just of being on the internet and attacked, but russian military power. so, again, i see the russians as an active national security
threat as a major threat to nato which has disarmed itself. the germans came apart. they had 12 divisions, a powerful conventional army in the center of europe. but it's mostly gone. so putin punching way above his weight class is actually intimidating much of western europe. >> electoral in "der spiegel" right now about the german military along the same lines. malcolm nance, same question. a lot of our guests tonight have separated these two topics. the fact that our election was hacked and the fact that alarmingly nice things are being said from the top of the government about vladimir putin. do you mush them together? >> i believe that there is a connection. and it's virtually no one in the intelligence community could not see this and see that there has to be an arc. there has to be something between point a and point b. it's one thing, as the general said, for you to want to reach out to your opponents.
at one point russia was part of nato's partnership for peace. we were coming almost allies to a certain extent. and then once vladimir putin consolidated his power, he broke that he has a vision, a vision of european global power playing. and he has a vision for the world, which involves you -- him, the russia having to have allies. so by, you know, bringing on, you know, his donald trump and giving him the compliments and working him, you have to understand, this was the spy master in chief of russia. >> yeah. >> he ran human intelligence operations in west germany. he knows how to manipulate people. now he is a spymaster with atomic weapons and unlimited money. he can use his dominance to influence any weapon he wants and he has done it. >> malcolm nance, our thanks. barry mccaffrey, our thanks. another breck for us. our coverage continues. someone that makes it easy
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saying he was on the committee asking those questions, saying he should recuse himself. but nancy pelosi now saying he should resign. >> this is based on two contacts with the russians that were heretofore not disclosed. >> and the fact that he was asked about it -- not only not disclosed, he was asked about it and said he had no contact with russians. >> again two, newspaper stories have come out and kind of dominated our broadcast tonight. which was all going to be on the topic of things russia any. along the way, we have talked to a number of guests, all of them experts in their field. all of them among our very best correspondents and reporters, from richard engel in moscow here to new york. so our thanks to everyone for taking part in this. obviously, a story that took on new urgency and new currency while we were in the midst of discussing it tonight. and as i said, straight ahead, we will air our regular broadcast for tonight of "the 11th hour" dominated again by