weeks. the israelis want a campaign. with lebanon even with yemen, we have seen the increased tensions. deploying troops and naval forces. none of that will stop until there is a cease-fire in gaza.'s almost there is a line drawn, diplomacy on any of these friends continue. the biden administration's credit has been cleared. they don't want to see a war but it is not up to them as we have seen with the israelis on the hostage cease-fire deal as well. so i think the risk is extremely high. and lebanon is the war of another magnitude. >> thank you so much. . there is a lot going on tonight. the former president of the united states and presumptive republican nominee had a meeting with the probation officer today, which i guess is the sort of thing we just have to get use to seeing these days. we will talk about what may have come up during the meeting and how it could impact his sentencing coming up in a month. pennsylvania governor josh schapiro was going to join me to talk about one of the biggest political questions of the moment. how should joe biden and democrats be talking about trump's conviction and how much? we will start with the supreme court. in a mountain of ethics scandals that just got bigger, and just get bigger because of a woman named lauren winsor. in case you don't know who she is, she is a progressive activist known to approach her public and figures and pretend she is an ally, statements and then record her targets making candid comments. comments recorded by lauren winsor at the supreme court historical society's annual dinner earlier this month, the supreme court justice samuel alito offered his assessment of the political and ideological struggle in america. >> i don't know that we can negotiate with the left in the way that needs to happen for the polarization to end. i think that it is a matter of, like, winning. >> i think your probably right. on one side of the other, one side or the other is going to win. i don't know. i mean, there can be a way of working, a way of living together peacefully, but it's difficult, you know, because there are differences on fundamental things that really can't be compromised. they really can't be compromised. so it's not like you can split the difference. >> one side or the other is going to win. now heard in a vacuum by someone, those comments may not seem particularly striking. but remember samuel alito is one of nine justices on the supreme court. the highest court in our country. it is supposed to conduct itself with utmost fairness and impartiality in interpreting our constitution and adjudicating the laws. and one of the justices, samuel alito, you just heard him, as telling a stranger at a crowded event, that he believes that one political side is going to win. that there is no place for compromised. and for anyone who has followed samuel alito's time on the court, there is no secret to what side the justice firm and thinks he is on. look at the past few weeks. he has refused to recuse himself from a generous six case in the trump immunity case sitting before the court currently. even after reports that his homes displayed flights with right wing political symbolism including an upside down american flag in the days after january 6th. samuel alito, who built a reputation over the course of years, has been tough on crime and generally unser but that it to criminal defendants and also has a newfound empathy for generally six defendants of all people and donald trump. during or go arguments in two cases. take for example, the case of a january 6th defendant. sim allele used costumes the justice department to question people in the capital attack. he suggested that if the court does not intervene, prosecutors could seek to use it against people involved in these will demonstrations like those that take place in a courtroom from time to time. but the protest is clearly not at all same as people are smashing windows and doors to invade the capital and causing members of congress and the republican vice president of the united states to flee for their lives. in the face of multiple ethics scandals, we have been talking about involving undisclosed gifts from her publican mega- donors to members of the supreme court, samuel alito has been unapologetic telling the wall street journal late last year that the quote "no provision in the constitution gives congress the authority to regulate the supreme court period." look, fairness and impartiality in both appearance and action are the principles judges are supposed to follow. especially in the highest court of the land. and at least at some point, samuel alito knew that. take a listen to an answer from his confirmation hearing back in 2006. >> to believe there is any room for a judge's own value or personal beliefs when he or she interprets the constitution? >> judges have to be careful not to inject their own views into the interpretation of the constitution. and for that matter, into the interpretation of statutes. that is not the job we are given. that is not the authority we are given. >> that is not the authority we are given. it is not the job we are given. alito knows or at least knew then what his job entailed. and despite all the actions and statements, he also apparently can't stand those who claim he is not living up to those standards. as he told the wall street journal, "everyone is free to express disagreement with our decisions and to criticize our reasoning as they see fit. but saying or implying that the court is becoming an illegitimate institution or questioning our integrity cross is an important line." see, justice alito wants to be revered as an impartial judge. just call balls and strikes as they are supposed to. but as this new tape and his time on the bench have shown, especially over the last several weeks and months, he is actually more of a player, actively engaged in one side's struggle to win. so is giving us every reason to expect this from him, given all the actions. it also doesn't mean it is something we should or need to accept. this is the former president of the naacp legal defense fund and joins me now. i always want to know what you are thinking. but as i listen to these tapes today, i wanted to know, what is share anable thinking. we talk to a becoming two things. how big of a deal is this? >> i think it's a big deal. i think it's a big deal in the cumulative sense and as you point out in your opening, this is not a colloquy that floats around in the air that is surrounded by plenty of context. we have seen all these statements from justice alito, not only in his decisions but when he went to rome after the dobbs decision. we heard him in very similar ways. what is it that is disturbing about this particular excerpt of the conversation? i think there are two things. one, i think is the way in which he was bantering back and forth with this woman who he did know was taping him in a way that suggested sympathy to her position. she was saying some pretty extreme things. probably the worst of it is when she said that we have to work to move this country back toward godliness. and he said, i agree with you. to me, that is just a very shocking statement. i don't think that is his charge as a supreme court justice to suggest that he believes the country needs to move toward godliness. she spoke often of what it was like in the past and that we need to return to some period in which things were more moral pick and he was agreeing with her. i don't know what period they were referring to. were they referring to a period in which there was much more religious talk in american life but there was also talk about keeping black people out of schools? what was the time period? i think the reason this is important is because the standard is a reasonable person standard. and justice alito refused to recuse himself from a variety of cases. said it is because a reasonable person, knowing all the facts of that is what he said about the flight controversy. but when we probe, we realize we don't know all the facts and the facts he has told us are not necessarily that accurate facts. we learned that from the flag flying issue when justice alito gave us a timeline that is not up. now, the reasonable person would reasonably believe perhaps that this justice was not impartial and that is the standard for recusal. but we will never get there unless parties actually file motions to recuse and that is i am hoping that this will show the united states, which is the party and the trump privilege case and others, that they have to have the courage to demand that these justices come forward in the context of recusal practice and explain themselves. we are not going to get it from sending letters to the justices we are not going to get it from having the justices just recuse themselves because they won't do it. we need to get really serious. and of course we need hearing from the senate judiciary committee so we can get to the bottom of this. it is quite serious. quite disturbing. quite alarming. and it is not a legitimate question the legitimacy of the court we have had this barrage of across the line conduct and misstatements and disclosures that would call into question the impartiality of any court. >> one of the things that was striking to me too is how he blames the erosion of trust in the court. what he blames it on. he blames it on all sorts of things. i was reminded of this today. he said this in 2023. and then talk to you about it on the other side. >> it is easy to blame the media. but i do blame them because they do nothing but criticize us. >> it is pretty rich, given his actions in his own words. it is not the first time he blame somebody else. his wife. everyone attacking him. what is that about? you were talking about accountability. people watching, what should they be doing if they are just outraged about this as well? >> i find this just really mortifying. and embarrassed for the court. we hear it with clarence thomas as well when he talks about the nastiness in washington d.c. and we hear it with alito. it is the media that eroded trust in the supreme court. no, it is the supreme court that eroded trust in the supreme court. in this kind of teenage refusal to take responsibility for their own actions is really incredibly alarming and disturbing and i put that at the feet of chief justice roberts. he is running the court. if i were running in institution and something extraordinary happens and like what happened in the dobbs case, which is something that never happened before in the history of the court, and a decision was leaked out to the public, i wouldn't just be trying to get to the bottom of who leaked it as vigorously as possible. i would want to understand what i created or what we created in our culture that encouraged such a breach of culture and protocol. all of these things should require the court to self reflect. to look at themselves. why do you have a justice on the court like clarence thomas who is not making the appropriate disclosures? we know they are appropriate because he is making them now that he has been found out. this has nothing to do with the media. the media is doing its job. in fact, the media has often been quite kind to the supreme court including around this flag issue which we had not heard about until three years late. it is not the media. these justices have to grow up and stop being stubborn teenagers and take responsibility for their own actions. this is where the leadership of the chief comes in here and when the chief allows a code of conduct, a voluntary code, as he allowed several months ago, a code so much more weak than the code that holds all other federal judges, he is essentially allowing and creating this culture of impunity in which they create rules that accommodate the actions they have already taken. so we have a real problem, ethical problem on the supreme court appeared to be honest with you, i blame us. i blame congress. we have failed. we have counted on the good behavior and the norms of the supreme court instead of putting in place real rules that they have to follow. and congress does have the power to be able to issue a code of ethics for the united states supreme court and they should do so. we cannot blame this just on the justices. we can't blame it on trump. we can't blame it on anything else but our believes that norms were enough. they are not enough as we are learning across the united states government and we have to get serious about what kinds of protections we need in place for the integrity of our nation's highest court. >> a lot of homework, including for chief justice roberts. thank you as always for joining me this evening. really appreciate it. coming up, governor josh shapiro joins me live to talk about donald trump's promises of revenge. >> first, the nominee had a meeting with his probation officer today. we will tell you what he was likely asked about and how it could affect his sentencing. christie greenberg is a former deputy chief of the criminal division in the southern district of new york and joins me in 60 seconds. seconds. let's get the rest of these plants in. organic soil from miracle-gro has grown me the best garden i have ever had. good soil, and you get good results. this soil will blow you away. it's the martha stewart of soil. today, donald trump met with the probation officer had of his sentencing for his 34 felony convictions in new york city. and the biden campaign cochair reminded me yesterday that this is one of those times where we need to pause and reflect on the extraordinary moment we are in. >> can we just stop on that fact. i will talk about the debate and a second. a guy that wants to be president of the united states first test to go sit down with his probation officer. that is just an astounding statement that sometimes people walk by. i don't think most americans are going to walk by that. >> he is completely right. we cannot just breeze by this stuff. trump's probation interview today happened virtually from mar-a-lago which is not typical. these meetings typically happen in person. but he is not a typical person who was just convicted either. but the interview itself is standard procedure for anyone convicted of a felony in new york. and one standard question trump may have been asked is whether he associates with criminals. you know, other convicted felons like steve bannon and oliver stone and his other buddies. we should not forget how extraordinary this moment is. kristi greenberg is the former deputy chief of the criminal division in the southern district of new york and joins me now. thank you so much. you tweeted today. i will start there. that trump would try to convince the probation officer not to recommend a jail sentence. but you said probation should reject the argument. how does that conversation exactly go down during one of these meetings? >> i think what you probably saw -- this was just 30 minutes. a short interview. you probably saw todd blanche taking the lead to try to highlight positive aspects of donald trump's character that they think or mitigating circumstances and things that they think will show he is amenable to supervision. so they will say, look, this criminal conduct which he denies, there is no victim here. but they need to look closer. we are victims. the american people are victims, not getting information that he was paying off a pornography start to make sure she didn't share that could have affected the election outcome. other things i think he will focus on are, i was the former president of the united states. i performed a great public service and you should take that into account. but it is also aggravating in the circumstance because he committed some of this crime like signing the checks to reimburse michael cohen right in the oval office. you could argue that. and he will point to the fact that he is a first-time offender. you know who else is a first- time offender? michael cohen, and he got sentenced to jail for the same conduct. allen weisselberg is essentially the same old -- one year apart. a lot of the factors that i expect todd blanche tried to highlight today in his interview, really it is going to be on the prosecutors to make their case separately to the probation office in presenting the fact that the trial record shows all the gag order violations and to show he is not following the court orders and he certainly won't follow the orders of probation. >> a lot of things to argue. i wanted to ask you, i mentioned one of the standard lines of questioning during one of these probation meetings. whether or not the person convicted of a felony associates with criminals. trump has a number of people who happen to fall into that category. i presume he is going to say no. i don't know what he said but what happens if he does associate with convicted criminals? are there repercussions? >> there are. there -- if he were sentenced to probation, there would be conditions to that probation term. among them is he cannot associate with other convicted felons. and so, steve bannon for example, is somebody that was convicted for criminal contempt charge and it has a trial that will start in a few months before the judge on a separate fraud case. with someone like that, someone who he has not pardoned because he is pardoned a number of his other criminal associates, for someone he is not pardoned, i would think he would not be able to associate. these are people that like we are involved with his campaign and that he would want to associate with. so we figure he will try to do that through intermediaries if he is sentenced to probation. >> quite a time to be alive, kristi greenberg. thank you for explaining this to us. that is always helping us to understand. i appreciate it. donald trump is not going to be able to append democracy on his own. he will need help. and a lot of help is available. we will introduce you to someone who could be his chief of staff and who has chilling plans for a second term. later, governor josh shapiro joins me to talk about all the ways the rule of law will be on the ballot in 2024. we are back after a quick break. so i can feel and see that my lines have gotten deeper just from a year out in the sun. i'm still marie and i got botox® cosmetic. i did not want a dramatic change. i wanted something subtle. and i'm really, really happy with the results. it's still me, but with fewer lines. botox® cosmetic is fda approved to temporarily make frown lines, crow's feet, and forehead lines look better. the effects of botox® cosmetic may spread hours to weeks after injection, causing serious symptoms. alert your doctor right away as difficulty swallowing, speaking, breathing, eye problems, or muscle weakness may be a sign of a life-threatening condition. do not receive botox® cosmetic if you have a skin infection. side effects may include allergic reactions, injection site pain, headache, eyebrow, eyelid drooping, and eyelid swelling. tell your doctor about your medical history, muscle or nerve conditions, and medications, including botulinum toxins as these may increase the risk of serious side effects. see for yourself at botoxcosmetic.com. they say we should stop eating so much meat. as these may increase the risk of serious side effects. so we made meat out of plants. because we aren't quitters. impossible. we're solving the meat problem with more meat. i bought the team! kevin...? 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every d.a. starting investigations right now? >> when donald trump gets elected, should he lock them up? no question. should there be a list of democrats that go to jail? 100%. >> it is a terrible path they are leading us to. and it is very possible that it is going to have to happen to them. >> in that description, as you just heard, it is all about karma. it is an eye for an eye. fighting fire with fire. that is the story they are telling over and over again. and it is one that far too many headliners are running with. as a near public had, "in the media, the story tends to be framed as follows. will trump seek revenge for his legal travails or won't he? ." it implies that he is bound to do to democrats what was done to him. you see, obviously, there is a big difference between what happens to trump and what he is promising to do to democrats or anybody who he is mad at. despite with the former president and his allies claim, trump was legitimately investigated, indicted, tried and convicted unanimously by a jury of his peers. 12 everyday americans. there was a legal basis and evidence for all of it. all presented during a six-week trial. not trying to hold people accountable for actual wrongdoing but reshape the american justice system and make it a political tool to go after democrats or anyone who has done trump wrong. political prosecutions were a major goal for the maga movement long before trump got indicted or convicted. i was reminded of this this week in. the washington post published an incredibly eye popping piece on the influential figure in trump's orbit that you might not be familiar with. for what it is worth, i had never heard of him either. the former director of the office of management and budget. and his name is russ vote. according to the piece, he is a potential chief of staff for a second trump term and could wield a lot of power. a self-proclaimed christian nationalist to crafted parts of the heritage foundation's project 2025 on how to remake the executive branch a trump presidency. then back in september of 2022, before trump got indicted or enter the presidential race, he wrote an essay saying that the left to drive america into a post- constitutional moment. saying it was time for the right to reinterpret the constitution and a radical new way. he encouraged conservatives to throw off precedents and legal paradigms that have wrongly developed over the last 200 years. and their place according to the post, he laid out plans for donald trump to deploy the military for civil unrest and use more control over the justice department and assert the power to hold congressional appropriations. that is just on trump's first day back in office. let's pause on that. is not calling for accountability through due process of the law to hold people accountable. he wants to reshape the system for the purpose of punishing trump's perceived enemies. last year, he told the heritage foundation crowd that the department of justice is not an independent agency. and if anyone brings up in a policy meeting in the white house, i want them out of the meeting. >> here's the larger picture. outside of the week to week news cycle and the latest republican reactions, the republican line of fight fire with fire that you hear over and over again is really just cover. framing a plan to overhaul the justice system and executive branch at large. and by the way, this plan completely predates trump's convictions and indictments and what he had in mind all along. pennsylvania governor josh shapiro is standing by and join say next. we are back after a quick break. join cken, cr ies all wrapped up— these wrapare amaz people can hear my thoughts? 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there is a trial and a jury finds someone innocent or guilty? or do we prefer a country where he president uses the justice department as his personal law firm? are we okay with the current system where every american is accountable to the same set of laws? or do we prefer a country where the president can just prosecute whomever he chooses simply because he does not like them? the election will be about a lot of things no question. but that is definitely one of them. joining me now is pennsylvania governor josh shapiro. he was previously the state's attorney general. i'm grateful you are here with me. i want to start with what i laid out in the earlier block. basically, this idea that donald trump and his allies are bowing what they are telling supporters. simply fighting fire with fire. you are doing something with our guy and we are going to go back to you. but to me, when you look at the specifics of the plan, it feels like it is not exactly the right description. it is not just revenge but a plan in my view to reshape the system and go after their enemies. and last week, you said something that really struck me. you said i'm scared to death if he is in charge with the system. is a strong statement. i want to see what you anticipate or expect. what worries you about what could happen to the system? >> i'm deeply concerned by the system. it is why we should not put the country at risk by putting donald trump back in charge of the justice system or back in charge of the military. donald trump came out of those 34 convictions doing what he always does when he gets in legal trouble. kind of a cut and paste job, if you will. and a room with us well from my time as attorney general. he complains. he bemoans the fact that he lost and he makes up excuses and tries to pipit away from personal responsibility. remember, i was attorney general in pennsylvania where he and his cronies and allies took us to court 43 different times to try to stop certain people from voting and stop the votes from being cast. by the way, he went 0-43. we went 43-0 unprotected the rule of law and the will of the people. and now donald trump wants to come back. as he said, exact revenge. the idea he would be put in charge of the justice system and have people surrounding him that -- that should scare all americans. it is another example of the kind of chaos he would inflict on the country if he was given the opportunity to lead this nation. we have always been a nation that respects the rule of law and respects the institutions. donald trump has tried to undermine our faith in one another and our faith in the institutions. we didn't let him get away with it in 2020 and i hope and pray we won't let him get away with it in 2024. i will be doing everything in my political power here in pennsylvania to ensure he is not successful and the institutions stand and hold. >> let me ask you about something you just alluded to which is the takeover of the justice system. i think people hear that and they think it is the reshuffling of the government and what does it actually mean? i talked about this influential figure apparently and trump residence world. and could end of being his chief of staff of for trump was reelected. who knows? this is a man who openly says he does not believe the department of justice is an independent agency. i just want to ask you, what is the danger of that quick sometimes i think it feels like just bureaucracy in washington but it is much more than that. >> it is a lot more than bureaucracy. dangerous if he controls a bureaucracy as well. think about the justice department. he would have the power to criminally prosecute people who didn't do anything wrong but are just his enemies. go after companies that he disagreed with the products they are selling or the manner in which they are conducting themselves and to use the justice department to strip away people's liberties, rights and freedoms and undermine the constitution. ignore the courts and essentially just have his way with good people of this nation. and it should scare the hell out of everybody. remember in 2016 ever donald trump won and then took office in 2017, he and most people around him did not know what the hell they were doing and there were still a few people around him that provided some guardrails for his chaotic conduct. now those people that might provide the guardrails are gone and a lot of the dangerous people around him know how the bureaucracy works. they know how the justice system works. they know how the military works. and if he is given the opportunity to lead this nation again with those people around him, who want to do danger and take away your fundamental freedoms, that should scare the hell out of everybody and that is not the kind of chaos we want in this country. >> it is such an important point. it is the people that know how to manipulate and it is also the plans being written. a lot of the more online. keeping with the legal discussion here, i want to ask about the supreme court. at the top of the hour, we talked about the supreme court and specifically, justice samuel alito. and this audio come he agreed there should be a fight to return our country to a place of godliness. this comes after the reporting of a flag outside of his house that has been a symbol associated with january 6th and serious ethical scandals around justice thomas and a lot of things. it feels like there is a credibility crisis for the supreme court. i just want to ask you, what is the solution here? >> remember, this is the court that donald trump packed in order to take away woman's right to choose. in order to make my daughter and other women out there have fewer rights today then they were born with. so this is purposeful on donald trump residence part, to pack the court with these people that want to restrict our freedom. people that have their own agendas. and justice alito, samuel alito, is showing his agenda by the way he flies his flags and apparently the way he runs his mouth as well. what the american people need to do is take that into consideration when they go vote this november. do you really want to give donald trump the ability to appoint more samuel alito as opposed to the court or more clarence thomas is to the court. you want to give him the ability to put more people on the court who will take away our fundamental freedoms? remember that justice thomas wrote that abortion is just the beginning. the very fundamental reasoning or foundation or reasoning they used to overturn roe v wade could be applied in other ways. it could be used to restrict your ability to marry who you love or undermine your ability to be able to go out and take the medications that you and your doctor want you to take. i really fear that this was just the beginning. and if donald trump is given the ability to lead this nation again and put more of those kinds of justices on the court, it will not only set us back for four years but it will set us back for 40 years. the stakes are so high in the selection. and while donald trump and joe biden's names are on the ballot, this is a binary choice. and don't let anybody tell you anything else. there a bunch of randoms on the ballot that have no chance of winning. this is a binary choice between donald trump and joe biden. it is not about those two. it is the kind of country want for ourselves. it is whether we value freedom and care about our institutions and whether we believe we have to move forward to brighter days or whether we will go back to a very dark time. this election is a referendum and a reflection on all of us. and we have a responsibility to turn out and to get others to turn out who will stand up against the kind of extremism we have seen on the supreme court and in the white house with donald trump and instead stand up for freedom and for fundamental values as americans and continue to move our country forward. >> before we let you go, i have to ask you about pennsylvania. you know the politics of your state. you know them extremely well. we have seen it. it has not been that long since the convictions. we have seen a little bit of impact in the polls. there are a lot of things that will be on the ballot and on voter mines. as you are talking to voters and knowing your state as you do, you think trump's conviction will be something that helps people to decide who are on the fence at this state? >> i don't know how that conviction will ultimately play out. i know the people of pennsylvania, they care a lot about four basic things. they want good schools. they want safe communities. they want economic opportunities. and they want their freedoms to be protected. i think they want to be led by someone who is honest and decent. someone who actually is on their side like joe biden. all they hear from donald trump is a whole bunch of whining about this country and i think donald trump has to quit whining. quit trying to divide us. we are producing more energy than anyone before the in this nation. we have the strongest economy in the world and we are beating china for the first time in decades. more people went to work this morning in america than any other time in our nation's history. i have a message to donald trump and all of his negativity and whining, stop shit talking america. this is the greatest country on earth and it is time we start acting like it. the good people of pennsylvania understand this is a great country. they understand we have a lot going for us. and we have time to continue this path of progress that joe biden has laid out and not go back to a negative time. and not listen to the whining of the former president and instead, focus on a positive future for all of us. >> quit your whining. it is a good message. thank you so much governor schapiro. i always enjoy talking to you. i appreciate it. we will be right back after a quick b break. ack it himmune fight cancer in 2 different ways. opdivo and yervoy can cause your immune system to harm healthy parts of your body during and after treatment. these problems can be severe and lead to death. see your doctor right away if you have a cough; chest pain; shortness of breath; irregular heartbeat; diarrhea; constipation; severe stomach pain; severe nausea or vomiting; dizziness; fainting; eye problems; extreme tiredness; changes in appetite, thirst or urine; rash; itching; confusion; memory problems; muscle pain or weakness; joint pain; flushing; or fever. these are not all the possible side effects. problems can occur together and more often when opdivo is used with yervoy. tell your doctor about all medical conditions including immune or nervous system problems, if you've had or plan to have an organ or stem cell transplant, or received chest radiation. your search for 2 immunotherapies starts here. ask your doctor about opdivo plus yervoy. a chance to live longer. first, we did the impossible. then, you ate so many of the impossible that we completely ran out. and now... ♪♪ they're backk! the footlong cookie is back at subway! organic soil from miracle-gro has grown me the best garden i have ever had. good soil, and you get good results. look at that! the broccoli was fantastic. that broccoli! i think some of them were six, seven pounds. new centrum menopause supplements help unpause life when symptoms pause it. with a multivitamin plus hot flash support. 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(♪♪) and enxtra for focus and clarity. centrum, powered by clinically studied ingredients. we don't even know yet how any americans will be moved by donald trump's conviction when it is said and done. it is only a couple weeks old. but there early signs that the verdict may be swaying some former trump voters. here's what we heard from some trump voters in a focus group. >> if they violate the law, then they should be subject to exactly the same rules that all of us are expected to abide to. >> pay the penalty for the crime. we all know what is going to happen. they will negotiate and he is not going to serve any time. but he will get more time on television. >> just to underscore, those are a couple of two time trump voters that are essentially saying, lock him up. >> the publisher of the executive accountability project and conducted the focus group he just heard. dan pfeiffer is the former communications director for barack obama. they are both joining me now. we only played one clip of your great focus groups but that was the two time trump voters that want trump to be held accountable it sounds like. did you get this sense, because the big leap here is the one who to be held accountable, but are they just turned off by trump? or the whale will they just vote for biden instead? or do we know that by your conversations? >> in this particular group, five out of nine of them, trump voters, five of them were going to vote for biden. i think there are a lot of people that think, somebody that voted for donald trump twice, it seems like a long shot to get them to vote for biden. but i think it is important to understand that for a section of voters who kind of held their nose and voted for donald trump twice and then saw what happened on january 6th, saw donald trump's claims and lies about the election, they were already pretty -- that was sort of a red line for them. they were pretty far out. what the conviction does is it moves them from -- and i hear this a lot from a two time trump voters who were upset. saying, i'm not going to leave it blank. it got them to a place where they said, this guy is totally unfit to be in the white house. i will vote for biden, not because i want to vote for biden and not because i want to vote for a democrat but because i will vote for anybody that will keep donald trump out of the white house because he is that dangerous. you are always in the selection, especially with the swing voters or the right. for them, you are not building it pro joe biden coalition but an anti-trump coalition. and as donald trump gets back into people's consciousness which is a lot of what is happening with the conviction, people are remembering, yeah, i don't like that guy. you are seeing a shift in voters were before, they were focused on negative things they thought about biden and now they are remembering the negative things they don't like about trump. >> it is so interesting to watch the focus groups and listen to you talk about them. you know well and i know well that they are big moments in campaigns. we have also seen the campaign sharpening rhetoric around the convictions. and there is a difference between what the campaign says and what michael tyler is saying and what the candidates say. when you look at the debate coming up, is a couple weeks from now, what should the president be saying? he is trying to appeal to the voters and to base voters. what is the right framing of language? >> the conviction is the elephant in the room. you have to talk about it. and you also don't get in a situation where you would just call him a convicted felon as many times as possible and try to win on points. the conviction is the critical data point in the story that a lot of the polling and focus group say we should be telling about trump which is that he is in this for himself. is running for office to protect himself from further legal jeopardy to help himself and his rich friends and to bring revenge to his enemies. it was that exact attitude, that me first attitude, that got him in this trouble to begin with. you have to take the conviction. this moment that actually caused people to brave out of their anti- politics bubble for a few minutes and pay attention to this race and then use that to tell the more broad story. you can do that in a debate over and over again and do it in a disciplined, calm falls way that is not allowed trump to drag you down into the mud. >> that makes a huge amount of sense to me. i wanted to ask you a similar version of the story. there are a couple of audiences biden has to appeal to. of these people you talk to and focus groups, is there anything president biden could say about the convictions that would turn them off? is there anything that is a trigger for them about it? >> when it comes to the swing voters, it is not just what he says but how he says it. for them, they want to see that joe biden can do this job. you have to get people over this hump that they think joe biden is too old. because this is where trump kind of wins often times. he has big lunatic energy that make him seem just more vivacious or more aggressive. and sometimes when he listened to voters, they get into kind of a strong framing where they are like, trump is bad but strong and biden is okay but weak. biden has to show strength. i agree with dan. you can't just say conviction over and over again. but he does have to go on offense. in fact, the whole campaign right now has to go on offense. we are in the moment to push. we have to stop talking about democracy being at stake and the campaign has to campaign like democracy is at stake. joe biden has to show that he is ready to go. i think it is not just the name- calling of convicted felons but being able to say, this man is unfit and i'm good to go. and you have to show that and not just tell it. >> state of the union energy. it is about the vibes i'm hearing. i wanted to ask you about you encouraging people not to be stressed. everyone should find it and subscribe to it. we will talk about it next time. thank you both for joining me. we will be right back after a quick break. don't go anywhere! dangerous ladders. gutter muck. yuck. no wonder you hate cleaning your gutters. good thing there's leaffilter. our patented filter technology keeps leaves and debris out of your gutters forever. guaranteed. call 833- leaffilter to get started. and get the permanent gutter solution that ends clogs for good. they took the time to answer all of our questions. they really put us at ease. end clogged gutters for good. call 833.leaf.filter, or visit leaffilter.com today. ♪♪ with fastsigns, create striking custom visuals that inspire pride district-wide. ♪♪ fastsigns. make your statement. if you have chronic kidney disease you can reduce the risk of kidney failure with farxiga. because there are places you'd like to be. farxiga can cause serious side effects, including ketoacidosis that may be fatal, dehydration, urinary tract, or genital yeast infections, and low blood sugar. a rare, life-threatening bacterial infection in the skin of the perineum could occur. stop taking farxiga and call your doctor right away if you have symptoms of this infection, an allergic reaction, or ketoacidosis. ♪ far-xi-ga ♪ when we say it'll be on time, they expect it to be on time. turn shipping to your advantage. keep those expectations with reliable ground shipping. thanks brandon. with usps ground advantage®. ♪♪ the rachel maddow show starts right now. hi, rachel. >> hi, yen. thanks very much. much appreciated. thanks to you at home. really happy to have you here. we have an interesting show for you tonight. particularly glad you're here for it. we're going to start a ways
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