>> throws around i" word. >> the president obama is a personal friend of mine. >> talk of impeachment gets into the realm of birth certificate. >> amazing grace how swede the sound that saved a wretch like me. >> penny wise and pound foolish. >> president obama is on the road facing down his latest detractors in congress while getting to hear from everyday americans in atown haul meeting in new york as he deliberates matters from the economy and crisis to the economy and the crisis in syria, today continued a two-day focus on education. the president this afternoon got to hear what's on the minds of students and fact at binghamton university including a question on the sequester cuts and head start. >> we don't have the an urgent deficit crisis. the only crisis we have is one that's manufactured in washington and it's ideological. and the basic notion is that we shouldn't be helping people get health care and we shouldn't be helping kids talking about even deeper cuts in programs like head start. even deeper cuts in education support. you know, that's like eating your corn seed. >> a little home spun which is come from the president there with more to come this hour as the president makes remarks with vice president joe biden in biden's hometown of scranton, pennsylvania. but right now, we want to go to washington and naacp and chairman emeritus julian bond. thank you so much for being here. we want to get into a little bit of the politics. i would be remiss if we didn't talk about the march on washington, the 50th anniversary coming up this weekend on into wednesday. as a veteran of that movement, can you give us a big picture where we are 50 years on? >> well, we're on -- i would say about halfway to dr. king's dream if that far. but what he dreamed about hasn't been realized yet. the poll in the "new york times" today shows enormous gasp what white and black people feel about racial progress. it strikes us as a country struggling hard to do the right thing but not succeeding so far. >> what do you guess is behind that disparity between the way white americans and many black americans feel about the progress in race relations given the fact that we do have our first african-american president elected with substantial shares of the white vote? >> it's so elusive white people tend not to know other people who are black and black people don't know that many black people themselves. it's as if we are living in two different worlds and we don't really know how to judge the people over there who look like this. and everything seems to be fine. we do have a black president. isn't that the great news. therefore it must be a wonderful country and everything is all right. but if you're living in that country and an your skin is dark, know that is not true. >> i want to play you what a professor asked the president about his view on the progress we've made in 350 years. >> obviously, we've made enormous strides. i'm a testament to it, you're a testament to it. let's assume we eliminated all discrimination with a wand and everybody had goodness that their heart. you'd still have a situation in which there are a lot of the folks who are poor. >> and is that really the next sort of place that the civil rights movement has to go these issues of income inequality? >> it's the place where it should have been all along and tried to be 50 years ago when this was a march for jobs and freedom and the jobs seemed to have not gone the the attention they should have even though many of the people who spoke 350 years ago from the platform at the lincoln memorial mentioned jobs. and it ought to be a preoccupation for us today. but al apparently there are people in congress who don't want it to be and blocked every attempt to make jobs an important part of our american legacy. and as a consequence, we're slipping behind. and the job des a part between book and white americans, the unemployment rate between black and white americans is as frightening now as it was then. black americans have always had a higher unemployment rate than white americans have. we did then and we do now. >> just to get into the politics a little bit, you had senator tomko described himself as a friend of the president talking about the i word talking about imbeechment. it could be written off as pandering to the extreme parts of the base. is it possible to imagine president obama leading a discussion about improving things in this country with that kind of talk from his friends in congress? >> with friends like that, who needs enemies. this is incredible somebody should talk about it. it's not incredible today because we hear nutty ideas coming from this political party and we know there are even nuttyer ideas we've yet to hear. you look at the pattern of behavior over there will of people and the rodeo clown in a variety of ways make it clear they disliking this president primarily because of the color of his skin. he's guilty of president while black and as long as too many people feel that, we're still going to have disparities and opinion about had imand we're going to having this crazy talk and more and more crazy talk. >> you've almost reminded me now and it's probably one of the more depressing numbers in the recent polling. there was a recent poll that asked specifically about dr. king's dream and the point you just made about color of our skin. it asked whether right now in america, are people judged not by the color of their skin but the content of their character. 54% of all adults agreed with that statement but just 19% of african-americans. why do you suppose there's so much pessimism on the part of black americans whether or not they're being judged by the content of their character. >> it's not because black americans are naturally pessimistic. it's because they live life in this country and see what happens to themselves, to their children, they see their chances to move up the economic ladder stunted. they see their inbought to dolt better for themselves, their children, their grandchildren and see things not working out as well as they can. things were better than 50 years ago. there are loss in this country that prohibit me from being the victim of discrimination. but that doesn't mean that life is wonderful and everything is free. it means we've still got a lot of work to do and feed to have everybody put his and her shoulders to the wheel and make sure that work is done. we had a great movement in 1963 when this march happened. we need a great movement today. >> well, said, julian bond, thank you. >> thank you. >> of course, msnbc will have full coverage of the march and the speeches at the steps of the lincoln memorial all day tomorrow. coming up, we'll discuss the white house game plan for syria after this week's alleged chemical weapons attack. it's back to school time and we're talking with diane about the walmart low price guarantee, backed by ad match. you got your list? 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[ male announcer ] new alka seltzer fruits chews. enjoy the relief! the syrian civil what, been raging for two and a half years. and it's killed more than 100,000 people. including about 7,000 children. but it's the images of a possible chemical attack where estimates of the number of dead range from a few hundred to over 1,000 that have sparked calls for president obama to mount an aggressive response. however in, an interview this morning, while the president called wednesday's attack a big event, he didn't seem ready yet to cross his famous red line. >> there is no doubt that when you start seeing chemical weapons you had on a large scale and again, we're still gathering information about this particular event but it is very troublesome. >> joining us now, mark ginsberg, a former u.s. ambassador, now serves as president of lavalina arab production pchz ambassador, if this turns out to genuinely be a chemical attack perpetrated by the bashar al assad regime, does the u.s. have any other choice or i suppose we should say the u.s. and the world but to take some sort of military action. >> first of an all, there's a u.n. team already on the ground that has to verify this. i accept the opposition while the pictures are agonizing for someone like me who has been following this day in and day out, we have a right to know who is responsible because of all of the actors that are at play. but let's go to the president's posture in his interview which i watched very carefully. mr. president, i would say stop agonizing. okay? the worst thing to be appearing is to be pushes against your will to take actions inconsistent with your goals and objectives. between your not wanting to do anything and between putting boots on the ground, i could drive a truck through. here's what i would be saying to the president. mr. president, the fact that the chemical weapons have now been used more than once and the credibility of the united states is on the line and the assad regime has not been held accountable in an international criminal court and this is a violation of international law means it's not boots on the ground, mr. president, but you need to go to the united nations. you need to go to the united nations despite the russians and chinese and you need to send the assad regime a message that there could be ways for you to act that don't require to put boots on the ground. stop agonizing, mr. president. there are things that you must and should do. >> i mean to, that point, at the same time you do have a lot of political pressure on the president right now. i want you to listen to what senator john mccain, a known hawk, obviously, on all things to do with the middle east, this is what he had to say about the president. he said it's been a year since the president said that the use of chemical weapons in syria would constitute the cressing of a red line but because the that's have not been backed by any real consequences they have rung hollow. as a all the killing goes onon. >> i actually, to be honest with you, a couple of years ago, there was a bliss tierious attack occurred on a syrian air force base. the israelis may have been responsible. someone else may have been responsible. where are we going to be held responsible for nonactions we don't have to take credit for but the syrian regime knows that we're behind it. they need to understand we need to act, number one. number two, the fact of the matter is 100,000 people have been killed. at what point in time do my democratic friends in this administration wake up and realize this is a question of at what point in time do we stand for our principles. mr. president, you don't have to put boots on the ground in order to be a merciful actor from the air. >> you're thinking things like sanctions short of military action. >> even if we have to take covert military action, it's time that we did so. we're going to wake up two months from now and see another chemical weapon and our hands are going to be agonizing again? we have to stop doing that. >> ambassador mark ginsberg, thank you very much. coming up, the president and vice president will be speaking in joe biden's backyard figuratively. we'll bring ta to you live. but first, the ugly intersection of race and crime. >> i think that in the post trayvon era, there is kind of a perverse tug of war going on now. conversely conservatives are saying, hey, wait a second. why didn't the liberal media so exercised over the trayvon martin slaying take up the three black boys beat up the white kid or the slaying of the white toddler by the two black teenagers. [ female announcer ] made just a little sweeter... because all these whole grains aren't healthy unless you actually eat them ♪ multigrain cheerios. also available in delicious peanut butter. healthy never tasted so sweet. there's a new way to fight litter box odor. also available in delicious peanut butter. introducing tidy cats with glade tough odor solutions. two trusted names, one amazing product. it's a horrific tragedy all over the news. three teens arrested in oklahoma for gunning down and killing 22-year-old chris lane. an australian man in the united states on a baseball scholarship. an affidavit was filed with the district court in oklahoma on august 20th which describes the teens as twos black males and one white male. despite these facts, here's how some in the media told the story the next day. >> 22-year-old a white guy shot by three black teens, three black teens shoot white jogger. who will the president of the united states identify with this time? excellent point. >> what we do know so far as least one of these thugs has spewed anti-white racist comments and tweets. >> baseball player came from australia, targeted apparently by three african-american young men. >> and president obama jumped into the trayvon martin shooting. will he jump into the oklahoma thrill kill too? >> and for more, i'm pleased to be joined by vice president for policy and outreach heather mcgee and director of african na studies as the lehigh university professor james peterson. heather, i want to start with you and see if you can unpack for us why you suppose the right is so determined to have president obama speak out on the chris lane case. it's not as if there are not lots and lots and lots of horrifying murders that happen in this country every day. >> it's really a shame. there's such a difference. i mean, we have to say that this murder is deplorable. we don't have to defend it and we don't have to defend it at all as people of color because it's actually not the what most african-american young men would ever do. right? it is not a symbol of something larger in our society. whereas the george zimmerman case, what we felt that was so painful was that george zimmerman was armed not only with a gun but with the same kind of fear-based negative stereotypes pervasive throughout our culture in which a heinz study foundation found when monitoring the news in pittsburghing that 86% of the coverage of african-american males was about crime. so it's not a slol symbol of anything other than our gun obsessed disgusting violent video game culture and the depravity of these young men able to shoot and target someone outside of the circle of human concern for all of us as americans whereas the zimmermanen and martin case ignited a conversation we needed to have. >> it's interesting, james, that heather brings up this idea of culture. i feel like there's -- actually a really useful discussion we could have had and that could be had in the chris lane case about that cultural violence among a lot of youth, black, white and indifferent. you could see it in aurora, newtown and in the chris lane killing. but instead, we're having this sort of racial tit-for-tat. >> it's an unfortunate situation like you mentioned here, joy. i want to add on to what heather is saying. remember part of the reason we were outraged around the zimmerman case is because george zimmerman wasn't arrested for 44, almost 45 days. these three men, young boys actually have already all been arrested. the media is demonizing all of them, taking the statement of one and imposing it on the impetus for the crime on all three. this is a horrific crime and unfortunately, the crime itself is becoming a casualty of the culture wars because we're having these battles around race and gun culture and violence and they've all been politicized to such an extent we can't get to the core around the disaffected youth and the way they become disconnected from pr society. unfortunately, political opponents are going to fight over who can use race as a political football from here till the end of time. that does not serve the case well here for chris lane. >> absolutely. chris lane is getting lost in it, as is the issue of guns. i want to go back for a second to the trayvon martin case. that is what spawned the desire for revenge for people on the right. >> he got off scot-free. what do they need revenge for? >> just for the fact that african-americans dared to be outraged about the case. there is a sense of vengeance on the other side. one of the things you did see, heather, was trayvon martin portrayed as a thug and a criminal. one person said he was a rabid dog that needed to be put down. because for whatever reason, angry that people were upset, this need to portray almost all black menace criminal, almost inherent inherently. one of the things that's fuelling that in the chris lane case, you had this tweet by one of the alleged killers in which he said 90% of white people are nasty #hate them. now we're off to the races. >> and it's all so incredibly sadat this moment, right at the 50 tth anniversary of the marchn washington. we could be lifting up stories like antoinette tuff. that was a beautiful example of an african-american woman finding dr. king like love, god-like love and empathy for a young white male who tends to be -- who is the mass killers in our society who is armed with a gun and could have killed 500 young children but was able to be find an emp think beyond skin color and share her pain with him. and that is exactly the kind you have thing that we need to do for one another as americans and it's exactly the kind of thing that we are simply unable to do when we keep being so quick to dehumanize one another as frankly i think video games do in general and as we do in racism and that's the core of racism is finding a lack of humanity in someone else based on skin color. >> heather, i think you're absolutely right. and tony net tuff, america has fallen in love with her. >> you'll notice that fox news hasn't. i've been trying to see how much coverage she's been getting on fox news when it's not the stereotype, an african-american woman who was able to save a school full of children abtalk down a young white killer. hasn't been wall to wall coverage over there. >> that's a very good point. definitely not the narrative they want to have. i want to play sound from president obama responding to the heroism of and tony net tuff and get your response on the other side. >> i appreciate you, too. i learned from the best president from the world. no, that's me. you can't get when you've got a great leader in front of you. >> i expect the right to demand that barack obama find a white hero and call them i expect. >> it's unfortunate but our politics have been reduced to that kind of tit-for-tat. it's great for the president to each out. i think the angela tuff story is a great story. we've had so many tragic stories around school shootings. going back to your earlier point, what's happening around this whole chris lane thing, it contributes to the criminalzation of black youth youth which contributed to the unfortunate murder of trayvon martin. so all these things in terms of how they play out in terms of race and politics and who gets to score points, we need to put the scoring points aside and focus on the human question around all of these issues in order to make progress on them. >> i want to give you the last word, heather. is there nene chance we can get beyond tat for at that time and have a substantive conversation about violence, guns and race. >> i really do think we can. i have to be optimistic. gun violence affects people of all races in this country. the fact is we have a duty to our children and to one another to create more harmony, moraysal harmony. that's what this moment of recollection of the last 50 years and this moment particularly for our generation, our generation, the most diverse in america's history to the really fulfill that promise of being a multiracial country where we all get an equal say and chance. >> i hope one day we can have qualcomm passion for a trayvon martin and chris lane, both no longer with us. heather and james peterson, thank you both. and still ahead, the day's "top lines" featuring the unreasonable return of the "i" word. 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[ phillips' lady ] live the regular life. phillips'. from crazy talk to impeachment fever, here are today's "top lines" with there's no shortage of criticism. >> there's knows shortage of criticism being directed at president obama. >> why aren't you impeaching the president? >> that talks includes talk of impeachment. >> tell me how sick impeach the president of the united states. >> you could probably get the house of representatives to do it. >> senator tom coburn said he believes there is some "intended violation of the law." >> you have to establish the criteria for proceeding against the president. and that's called impeachment. >> michigan congressman kerry bentivolio to write an impeachment bill. >> he's a smart politics. >> i don't have the legal background to know if that rises to high crimes and misdollars. i think they're getting close. >> one day he goes out and says let's talk about shutting down the government, crazy talk. >> mr. chairman. >> aspersions on my asparagus. >> then he goes to a town hall and he panders like there is no tomorrow. >> i think we're going to have another constitutional crisis in our country in terms of the president. >> he knows there's no grounds for impeachment. >> were you surprised to hear tom coburn who calls himself a friend of the president? >> the president's a good friend of mine and i consider him a friend. can you imagine how he treats people who weren't his friends? >> maybe he feels insecure. maybe he just wants to get out of town all in one piece. >> he is speaking with the constitutional authority of a franed obstetrician which is what he is. >> but he knows being medically trained that this is crazy. >> late bring in our panel. joan walsh, salon.com and msnbc contributor goldie taylor. goldie, michele bachmann, we're used to that. but tom coburn? i want to read you what the president wrote about tom coburn not toot long ago when coburn was selected as one of the most influential people of the year "after i took office, tom received dozens of letters from oklahomans complaining we looked too close on tv. tom's response was how better to influence somebody than to love them. each of us hopes the other will see the light but we'll settle for being friends. what kind of friend is he? >> with friends my those, you don't need no enemies. . at the end of the day, it used to be a time when you could step into your very small saturday morning gop breakfast and say what you wanted to say without any real repercussions because what was said among family stayed among family. then they invented videotape. it's very difficult to have one conversation in the public square and then one conversation with your very localized constituents. in this case, they're sort of bleeding over for coburn, in up to his chagrin. the fact is he has had to try and distance himself from the president, shed his moderate ways in order to win re-election. that's what he's all about. so you can't show yourself too close to the president. you can't be seen walking in and out of the white house or in and out of dinner with this president. you have to show animus. what better way than to say he's impeachable. >> tom coburn isn't going to run for president. but talking about somebody who could be running for president, you wrote about ted cruz. he was asked about this issue of impeachment and he gave an answer that nicolle wallace, a lon actually worked for john mccain and george w. bush described as intellectual little dishonest. how would you describe his answer? >> it's absolutely factually dishonest. they require the house first and and then we've heard that the house has the votes but just to the go back to tom coburn for a minute because this is president really is a master of turning the other cheek in a way i can't speak for you or goldie but i don't think i'd be capable of because remember two years, exactly two years ago, tom coburn also spoke up to defend his friend, barack obama, and he said that the president didn't want to destroy america. he just wanted to encourage dependency because that worked so well for him as an african-american male. this man who was president the harvard law review. so again and again, tom coburn pulls out this friend card. and then uses it to completely undermine the president. and he knows better. also in that -- i listened to that hour long tape. he calls for a second constitutional convention. he says no, don't shut down the government over obama care. why don't you use the debt ceiling if you want to try to do that which is even crazier. many of us give this man a pass. he is supposed to be a reasonable republican. i just think we've got to change that equation. >> i committed the unpardon double -- saying slate when i meant salon. jones makes a great point. we are taking seriously the notion of he ted cruz running for president. what does it say about his earth that somebody who is considered one of the leading potential presidential candidates is talking about shutting down the government, about breaching the debt ceiling and impeachment in these casual ways? >> you know, joan really was right. this is about the grass-roots, the establishment is not in charge of the hen house anymore. the foxs are inside. it's our tea party grass-roots. they're in charge, and they show themselves through people like ted cruz. you know, i don't know that speaker boehner has the votes that he needs to get us past a debt ceiling or to get us past any other piece of legislation coming forward. he'll need to partner with democrats like nancy pelosi to get anything going forward to keep this government open. he won't, however, have the caucus that is i call it the cruz caucus. those people who are dead set on all returning or defunding obama care. i call it obama scare now. and shutting down this government as of october 1st. boehner was on a conference call earlier and warned them, remember 1995 and how detrimental shutting down the government was to us. and so it's not that i don't stand with you on principle and i'm against this law like everybody else, but ted cruz and the others, please stop and take a look at what it will do to us as a party if you do this. but he's not in charge. ted cruz and the cruz caucus is if charge. >>.joan, isn't the real danger in the end boehner and the republicans have to raise the debt ceiling there's no way. full stop. that is going to further empower and further embolden the ted cruz wing because they'll say sellouts, you sold you theous again. >> what's really scary, ted cruz, they're writing checks to their base they can't cash. they will never be able to -- i believe we will lift the debt ceiling. the president is not going to negotiate. you have tom coburn not running for re-election and who presumably knows better, the only thing that's going to help the republican party, we've been talking about this since january since the autopsy, the only that will help is for even conservative forgive people to a this is crazy talk. we can't indulge it anymore. we're not going to impeach this president. he got re-elected. obama care passed. it's the law. we can fix it. we can try to tweak it, but they won't say that. they're so afraid of the base and don't know where to go for future that they won't say the necessary words. we're stuck with this ratcheting up of insanity. >> we need a republican with the stature to tell the truth to the base. thank you so much, joan walsh, as well as goldie taylor. >> thank you. coming up, a political bromance born five years ago. we'll go live to scranton. >> so let me introduce to you the next president, the next vice president of the united states of america, joe biden. 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[ male announcer ] look for the easy-open red arthritis cap. we're going to take you to scranton now where vice president joe biden is about to introduce the president. >> my town, mr. president. the president's right behind the curtain. i know you know my native town, scranton. but i'd like to introduce mr. president because you can hear me back there, the community that formed everything i believe. my absolute conviction that if you give ordinary folks a fighting chance, they can and do do extraordinaire things. my absolute conviction. born out of my being raised about 20 blocks from here. conviction that the class is what made this country great. and my certain knowledge that people who grew up in neighborhoods like this one, the one i grew up in scranton, have big just as big, just as expansive and just as accomplishable as any place in the world. as i said, mr. president, i grew up not many blocks from here where we are today. and i can tell you there wasn't a mom or dad in my neighborhood, green ridge up by marywood, not a single one, not a single one that believed their child couldn't grow up to be anything they wanted to be. not a doubt in their mind. as they struggled but no doubt, if they were willing to work hard, we could do whatever we wanted to do and guess what, they were absolutely right. you know, mr. president, some might think this is a bit of nostalgia on my part talking about bobby, talking about my native town like i am, and by the way, by the way, there's only three women who that i know who are close to perfect. one was perfect, the blessed mother, the other was my mother and the other is bobby's mom. ellen casey right there. [ applause ] a lot of you ask, why i left scranton when i was a kid. i went to st. paul's and lives in north washington. why i left scranton. it was simple. i lived 3 1/2 blocks from the caseys and i knew that only one of us were going to be able to make it big and it wasn't going to be me. so i had to get out because casey would dominate. it's not just me believing this about my native town. there's a large new study been done by a group of four economists as the harvard and the university of california-berkeley and here's what their study concluded and this is just about a month ago. study. "scranton still stands out as odds of climbing to the middle class." mr. president, the american dream is alive here in scranton. it's alive here in scranton. and i think, i think i know the reason why it's alive. values. that have made the middle class possible to america still matter here. community, hard work. personal responsibility. faith, family. but most of all, the value that is held most dear by this community that was held most dear by my mom and dad as they were raising me here and is still held dear by everyone is opportunity. that's the reason, simple opportunity. that's the value that sets america apart from the rest of the world. opportunity. it's about making sure that folks have the opportunity to reach their god-given potential and i'm proud to say my hometown is one of those places where working. and that's why, that's why this is a perfect place to talk about have a bunch of economists that us and are brilliant. they like to tell us the middle class and give us an i number. they'll say the middle class is 49,871 or 51. the middle class isn't a number. i tell them that it's about -- it's about understanding. in your bones the middle class, middle class is about a value set. being able to own your home and not just rent it. it's about being able to live in a safe neighborhood where your kids can walk the streets. it's about the dignity of a job that allows you to support your family, being able to take care of your parents when they get older and hope your kids will never have to take care of you. it's about being able to send your kid to a good school where if he or she does well and qualified to get to college, you have a chance to get them there. it's about making sure that if they get there, you can afford it. and mr. president, i've never met a mother or father nor have you as we've campaigned all across this great nation whether in a poor neighborhood, an middle class or a wealthy didn't dream, child would have access to a college and as all you folks know, there's something that's -- that something is getting harder and harder to do. and that's why the president and are here today. because we can't have the doors of college shut to the kids of the middle class and those aspiring to get there, because we can't let opportunity die. you the know, there are a lot of people who tell you that you dreams in this country now. that today's generation of americans and tomorrow's are just not going to be able to aim as high as we did. that's a bunch of malarky. i don't believe -- i don't believe nor does the president believe that fur a minute and we never will. that has never been the story of this nation. and the president and i are determined to make sure that it's never the story. so ladies and gentlemen, it's my my friend, your president, barack obama. hello falcons. well, it is good to be back in scranton. i love you back. now, first of all, everybody take a seat. you know, i want everybody to be comfortable. here are some reasons i'm happy to be back in scranton. reason number one is the first time i came to scranton, i was invited to a st. patrick's day party. that the ladies were hosting. and i got to say, michelle got a little jealous because they were -- you know, i was getting kisses and i came home and had all this lipstick on my collar, and michelle said, what's going on there? i said no, i was just campaigning. so that makes me like scranton. a second reason that i love okay. we will be back with more of the president. we're going to fix that technical problem and we'll be right back. let's go to kristen welker traveling with the president in scranton and part of this bus tour. what are the big themes we're expecting? earlier today it was about education. there was a town hall. what are we expecting from this address this evening? >>. >> well, i think you are going to hear more about education, college affordability. but certainly part of this broader theme, this broader campaign that president obama has been on sort of reaching out to the middle class, mapping out his sort of fiscal vision ahead of the fall budget battles with republicans. you heard vice president biden who is, of course, a native of scranton touch on some of those themes. he talked about the fact that the american dream is alive in scranton. of course, the vice president and president obama appearing together here in this key battleground state. the optics, a lot of people are going to be talking about what this could mean for 2016, but right now, both the president and vice president focusing on the other campaign that they are waging which is to sort of tee up these budget battles that we'll see in the fall. >> kristen welker, thank you. back to the president. >> we love his family. i am so blessed to be here in and thank you joe, for saying, yes, five years ago. third reason i love scranton is because there are a lot of caseys around here. now, joe already talked about bob casey's mom who is gorgeous and wonderful. and we love her dearly. but i got to admit, bob casey's not bad either. he is a great united states senator, and i'm proud to call him a friend. we love teres and we love his family. back in 2008, when we were campaigning in pennsylvania and we were having a tough time and getting bad press, bob casey was right there with me on a train, and you know, you can judge your friends not by when you're doing well when but when you're having a tough time, and that's the kind of person bob casey is. and so i'm grateful for him. we've got mayor chris daugherty is here. give him a big round of applause. the state attorney general, kathleen kane is here. the president of lock wanna, mark bolk is here. >> i want to say thank you for the wonderful introduction to joe. good job, erika. and finally, i want to thank all the students who are here. i know that -- looks like -- looks like we got the falcons football team here. when's your first game? 31st? you guys going to be ready? okay. i just wanted to make sure. i know classes don't start again until next week. so i appreciate you being inside when the day's so nice outside. you know, because these last few days of summer vacation i know are precious. but we're going to talk about something important. and that is are we doing right by not just this generation but future generations? i'm on a road trip. it started at the university of buffalo. there you go. then i went to syracuse. talked to some high school students there. then binghamton university for a town hall earlier today. have all you guys been following me around everywhere? and we're ending this bus tour here in scranton. and -- and i wanted to visit lackawanna college because of the great work that you're doing here, giving people a first class education that doesn't cost a fortune with support in place to make sure that students stay on track. you know, i'm told that many students here are the first in their families to attend college. and i know your families are proud of you but i'm proud of you because getting a higher education is one of the best things you can do for yourself and for your country. [ applause ] but we've got to make sure that we're doing right by you. that's why i want to talk about today, you know, over the past month, i've been visiting towns like scranton and talking about what we need to do as a country to secure a better bargain for the middle class and everybody who's fighting to get into the middle class. we've got to have a national strategy that grows the economy in a broad based way so that everybody who works hard has a chance to succeed. that's our goal. that's what we're fighting for. now, for the past four and a half years, we've been fighting back from a brutal recession, cost americans their jobs and homes and savings in some cases. and what happened was that recession showed what had been some longer term trends that were eroding middle class security. now, folks at the top had been doing very well. but ordinary americans hadn't seen their wages go up, hadn't seen their salaries go up. it was getting harder to save for your kids' college education. health care was getting harder to obtain. a lot of manufacturing had gone overseas and so what joe and i said was, our focus is not just to fix the problems created by the crisis. we've got to change the fundamentals so that we get back to the day when if you want to work hard, if you are willing to be responsible, you can make it. you can succeed. [ applause ] so we saved an auto industry. we took on a broken health care system. we invested in new technologies to achieve energy independence. we changed our tax code that was tilted too much in favor of folks who were doing very well at the expense of working families. we started to crack down on some of the practices we had seen in the financial sector that got us into this mess in the first place. and because of that work, our businesses today have created 7.3 million new jobs over the last 41 months. we're generating more energy than ever before. we sell more goods made in america to other countries than ever before. manufacturing is starting to come back and insource instead of outsource. health care costs are growing at the slowest rate in 50 years. our deficits are falling at the fastest rate in the 60 years.
happy easter to those of you celebrating. we have a lot of politics to get to. but first, the growing tension between the united states and north korea. north korea last night launched a ballistic missile from the submarine base in sinpo, but the missile exploded minutes after launch. this happened as mike pence landed in south korea for talks on how to counter the growing nuclear ambitions and he spoke to american troops at a breakfast there this morning. i'm joined by senior national security analyst juan duarte, the failure, the "new york times" this morning leans hard into the idea that the failure wasn't necessarily a north korean failure, but maybe sabotage and possibly sabotage from the united states. what can you say? >> this is a missile program that's been replete with failures. and the challenge is we don't know yet. it could be sabotage. it could be poor engineering or bad luck. it's the nature of the missile programs but it's clear that
many trump voters though are forgiving. at least for now. >> i think he does see things differently. as all of us would if we had the responsibility. we just see the tip of the iceberg. >> but facing a unified democratic opposition with an uncomplicated message, not trump. republicans on defense ahead of 2018 are struggling to define what it even means to be a trump republican when mr. trump's views keep changing. >> i'm my only man. i'm not going to be told tdo by one president or another how to represent the state of arizona. >> and joining me now is the chairman of the senate armed services committee, john mccain of arizona. senator mccain, welcome back to "meet the press." >> thanks, chuck. thanks for having me back. >> i want to start with north korea. why would i call china a currency manipulator when they're working with us on the north korean problem? we will see what happens. why does china's currency policy have anything to do with north korea?
should it have anything to do with the north korea? >> it may be part of the overall relationship, but china is the key. china is the key. they can stop this if they want to because of their control over the north korean economy. and by the way i would point out -- i know this will come out later on, but there are artillery on the border between north and south korea that can reach seoul. we can't take them all out -- this is -- this may be the first test of this presidency. but china can shut them down. whether they're currency manipulators or not, we should expect them to act to prevent what could be a cataclysmic event and the north koreans keep making progress. they had a failure yesterday. i'm not sure -- >> do you buy the sabotage thing? >> i don't think so, but i wouldn't rule it out. but at the same time, they have made steady progress. while we have made agreement after agreement after agreement.
chuck, how many times on this show have we said, we have now a comprehensive agreement with noh korea and so i'm not blaming trump for this. i'm blaming republican and democrat presidents over the last 20 years while they have continued to make progress. >> is the carrot and stick approach with china worth doing? is using our trade practices or these conversations about currency worth having these debates in order to influence them on north korea? >> to prevent north korea from having a missile with a nuclear weapon that could strike the united states and we would have to rely on our ability to intercept and -- by the way i'm told that we have that ability is still risky business. this is -- this is really very serious. this guy in north korea is not rationale. his father and grandfather were much more rational than he is. >> when you're dealing within a irrational actor, with north korea the military option is on the table but when you're
dealing with an irrational actor, does that make the military option something you don't want to deal with because you don't know how he's going to respond? >> i think with the proximity of the north korean artillery to seoul, a city of how many millions of people? but at the same time, to risk a situation where they have that ability and we rely on our ability to intercept, this could be the first test, real test, of the trump presidency. by the way, i believe that he'll get very good advice from mattis and from mcmaster. >> let me move on and a bigger picture and what we've learned about president trump and his foreign policy. in your hometown paper -- it was -- writing about the syria decision. it was a completely ad hoc decisions and my guess is that's the way that foreign policy is going to be conducted under trump. a series of ad hoc decisions based on what seems right or doable at the time. at the end of the day to borrow from winston churchill, there
he said look, he obviously isn't probably going to be part of the solution. but he stopped short of that. why? >> because i don't think he's absolutely sure what he needs to do. but i would point out of the 400,000 men, women and children who were slaughtered, they weren't slaughtered by isis. they were slaughtered by bashar al assad. the war crimes are horrendous here. and to just say we're only after isis in my view rather than regime change is something that we have to rethink. >> i want to talk about the overall changes. you said he's growing. >> yes. >> in office. there are some who will say, no, the washington establishment sucked him in. >> i hope so. >> okay. >> no, on national security, i do believe he's assembled a strong team and i think very appropriately he's listening to them. and that's the area of course where i am -- >> but i want to go quickly on the washington consensus, not everybody thinks the washington consensus on foreign policy has
worked in the middle east over the last 25 years. >> it hasn't. you've right, it hasn't. but it wast causof the people around him no in ft, if evious president -- for eight years we basically did nothing in response to some of the most horrendous war crimes in history. at least he did something. now i hope that there will be a strategy to follow that up. and look, america is about a moral superiority and our willingness not to fight every fight, but at least respond to horrendous acts of inhumanity and war crimes. also, by the way, syria will continue to have the spread of al qaeda if we don't get -- take care of bashar al assad. >> senator john mccain, unfortunately i have to leave it there. >> thanks for having me. >> you have been here on a few times. >> time flies when you're having fun. >> there you go. earlier this week, the u.s. military dropped the so-called mother of all bombs against isis fighters in afghanistan. president trump who has turned over more decision making to the
pentagon was asked if he personally authorized that action. here's what he said. >> did you authorize it, sir? >> everybody knows what exactly what happened and what i do is i authorize my military. we have the greatest military in the world and they have done their job as usual. so so we have given them total authorization. that's what they're doing. >> well, joining me is senator jack reed, democrat from rhode island and the ranking member of the senate armed services committee. he and senator mccain do a lot of work together. welcome back to the show. >> thanks. >> let me start with north korea and get to the issue of the unpredictability aspect of president trump. is there on this specific issue when it comes to north korea, is there an argument that that's an asset and not a liability? >> i don't think long term it's an asset. i think you have to have a deliberate plan. i think you have a strategy. i think as senator mccain indicated, china is key to that strategy. they have the economic leverage. they're the biggest trader with north korea. in fact, their trade is going up last year and they have
indirectly provided some of the electronics so if china can be brought to the point that they're putting pressure constantly on north korea, there's an opportunity i think to try to freeze their system and then roll them back. but that has to be a long term deliberate day by day strategy. one of the things about the president he's getting good military advice from general mattis and general mcmaster, but he needs a much stronger state department. >> i want to ask about this -- and you talked about his relationship with general mattis. somebody you supported. his confirmation. >> yes. >> and in the opening bite there in your introduction i noted about how the president didn't sign off himself personally on the dropping of the so-called mother of all bombs. he has given more leeway to his military leaders to make these decisions. are you comfortable with that? >> well, these authorities have been -- are given over the last several years. they have increased. in fact, when general nicholson
was before the committee he said he was satisfied with the authority he had and i assumed this is not a new authority. it was something he was authorized. deploying a particular weapons system. >> right. but there was a comment that said, look, in the previous administration, we wouldn't have dropped this without at least alerting the white house. in this one we don't have to alert the white house. that that is the essentially -- that's essentially changed. are you comfortable with that change? >> i think there has to be communication obviously between the white house and their field commanders on the constant basis. that's generally routed through the security council. i think in this case, general nicholson decided the weapon was appropriate for the tunnel complex. in fact, there are no reports of civilian casualties so the operation i think he deemed as something that was appropriate, well within his authority. he might have informed someone, but i don't think he went out of the way to do it.
>> obviously anything we do in afghanistan is covered by the war author assist passed a long time ago. there's still some question about whether anything we do in syria falls under that. do you think it does or doesn't? >> i think with the pursuit of isis in syria, that is covered by the map. it's an extension, but the route is we're extending that from many, many years now. but going after isis i think within the providence of the map other actions -- >> going after assad would not fall under that map? >> i don't think so. i think going after assad in the deliberate concentrated effort to conduct the military operations would require the authorization of congress. i think the tack that the president took was -- i agree with the tack, was done under his prerogative as responding to an incident, horrible incident. the right or the ability of the nations to protect the vulnerable populions. i think anything further should be considered by the congress. >> would you support sending more troops to syria?
>> i think the president would have to lay out a plan, a clear plan. the ad hoc nature of what he does, the kind of -- the flip-flops which seemed dramatic this week suggest incoherence in foreign policy. i think he's trying to come to grips with these things. he doesn't seem to be someone that follows through with the deliberate planning process you need. he has to come to congress and to the american people and explain what he's doing. >> are you comforted by the flip-flops? all of them were moves from outside the washington consensus to within the washington consensus, nato, how to deal with china. does that comfort you? >> i think it's recognizing in many cases the obvious what he has to do. i think with respect to china, you know, their key role in north korea potentially can't be sort of jeopardized by going after them as currency
manipulators. in fact, there's some evidence that they're not doing that recently. one time they were. >> right. >> but i think these things are -- be more comforting if they were not sort of off the cuff, unexplained or glibly announced, but rather the conscious deliberation and by the president. i think also too one of the things we have got to recognize is the growing sort of disenchantment with russia. but that disenchantment also has to be reflected in serious concentration on the election in 2016 and what they did here. because they're still operating today in europe, using those same information techniques, et cetera. we have elections coming up. we can not allow the russians to be part of our electoral process. so that's a something he has to focus on. >> right now he has to accept it happened. >> exactly. that's one of those things that that would be a great improvement in his situation. accept it happened. and then move very aggressively for the good of the country to
see what happened in '16 so that we're prepared and protected for '18 and beyond. >> senator jack reed, from rhode island, good to have you here. thank you for coming on to share your views. when we come back, the trump administration get tough policy on illegal immigration. >> if you're here illegally you should be deported. >> but john kelly says that it is a complicated problem with no easy solutions and congress needs to step in. what, you think we own stock in the electric company? i will turn this car around right now! there's nobody back there. i was becoming my father. [ clears throat ] it's...been an adjustment, but we're making it work. you know, progressive.com makes it easy for us to get the right home insurance. [ snoring ] progressive can't protect you from becoming your parents, but we can protect your home and auto. [ chuckles ] all right.
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or another. i would argue, chuck, that we have to straighten this t. and i thin-- i place that squarely on the united states congress. it's a hugely complex series of laws and i get an awful -- i engage the hill quite a bit. and i get a lot of -- i get an earful about what i should do and what i shouldn't do. but it all comes down to the law, doesn't it? we are a nation of laws. i would hope that the congress fixes a lot of these problems. >> okay. you say it's on congress, but there are others who say if you enforce the law on the books. so what is the issue? are the laws on the books hard to enforce and they need to be changed? is that what you're saying here? >> well, the laws on the books are pretty straightforward. if you here illegally you should leave or should be deported. put through the system. but there are 11 million people and it's very complicated. there are people who came here as children. there are people who came here illegally many years ago and they have married local men and women who have children. and it's a complicated problem, but the law is the law.
given -- but i don't have unlimited capacity to execute -- >> is it the best use of money? is this the resources you need, you need to hire more people to deal with this issue? is that your number one problem? >> i think so. the people -- you know, it's two aspects. i.c.e. operates more or less on the interior and, you know, through targeted actions against illegal aliens plus. what i mean by that is just because you're in the united states illegally doesn't necessarily get you targeted. it's got to be something else. we're operating on the other end of the spectrum, multiple convictions -- >> define a criminal here. that's -- so it seems as if on the obama administration, there was one definition. there seems to be another definition in this administration. is that fair to say? >> it is fair to say that the definition of criminal is not -- has not changed, but where on the spectrum of criminality we opate has changed. >> so can you give me an example of somebody that wasn't deported before that you're deporting now? >> well, as an example, multiple duis.
even a single dui depending on other aspects would get you into the system. but remember for -- >> this wouldn't have been the case under the previous administration? >> you have to remember that there's a system -- a legal justice system in place and the law deports people. secretary kelly doesn't. i.c.e. doesn't. it's the united states, you know, criminal justice system or justice system that deports people. >> i want to go back to the 11 million. it seems that the bigger problem you're dealing with is not the border, it's visa overstays. >> it's a big problem. big problem. >> is that what you need -- you need i.c.e. agents to do that? is that what you need the extra resources for? >> all of that. it's a big problem. it's a lot of people out there that need to be taken into custody and deported according to the law. visa overstays, quite a large number of the illegals that are in the country that are in fact visa overstays. and we do -- we just completed i think a targeted -- they just completed, i.c.e. just completed
a targeted operation going after overstays. it's time-consuming. but at the end of the day, they came here with the promise to leave and we have to track them down. if they're still in the country and put them in the proceedings to deport them. >> i guess i'm going at this with the money for the border wall would be better spent of going after the visa overstays and would that deal with the problem that president trump campaigned on? >> you have to secure the border somehow, first and foremost. but the very, very good news, for a lot of the different reasons, the number of illegal aliens moving up from the south has dropped off precipitously. i mean, we're down 65, 70% in the last two months. these are the months that we should see a steep incline in illegal movement. it's down by almost 70%. >> do you think that's been the president's rhetoric on the campaign and saying, well, he won, it's tougher to get across the border? >> certainly. >> is that contributing -- >> certainly.
some of the other things we have done on the border. just my going down to the border on several occasions, you know that jeff sessions was just down there, the attention being paid to the border certainly has injected into these people and a vast majority of them are good people from central america, but it's injected enough confusion in their minds, i think, and just waiting to see what actually does happen. >> you as head of south com, the southern military command, your previous job before this, you were testifying on these issues during the time we had the surge of central american immigration through mexico. and i remember at the time you said, hey, i stop at the -- essentially the guatemala border there. your purview. but you talked about the difficulty you're trying to find partners at the time in central america to help you with this and the u.s. drug consumption -- the u.s. drug consumers you thought as part of the problem in this. explain.
>> drug consumption in the united states is the problem. just cocaine alone, when you consider the massive amounts of profit that come out of the united states, the trafficker's biggest problem is not getting drugs till now into the united states. the biggest problem they have is laundering the money. so when you have that much profit coming out of the united states and that profit is managed by cartels that are beyond violent and so you go to -- you go to the latin american countries, mexico, the united states for that matter, you mentioned corruption already, the kind of money they can offer an attorney general in guatemala or a police chief in mexico city, the kind of money they can offer, if you don't take the money, they're happy to send your -- you know, your youngest child's head to your home in a plastic bag. >> you said though the hypocrisy aspect of it -- >> it is. >> meaning the central american countries, is the idea of for instance marijuana legalization, does that help your problem? or hurt your problem? >> marijuana is not a factor in
the drug world. >> this really is a cocaine and in some cases the opioid sort of copycats? >> it's three things. methamphetamine, almost all produced in mexico. heroin, virtually all produced in mexico and cocaine that comes up from further south. those three drugs result in the death of i think last year 52 -- i think 52,000 people to include opioids. it's a massive problem. 52,000 americans -- you can't put a price on the human misery, the costs to the united states is over $250 billion a year. the solution is not arresting a lot of users. the solution is a comprehensive drug demand reduction program in the united states that involves every man and woman of goodwill. >> and he went on to say that congress needs to be working on this. i also asked secretary kelly about the fight against isis and that mother of all bombs in afghanistan. you can hear his answer on the entire interview which is posted on the website. meet the press.com.
from syria to the fate of obamacare, what are we to make of president trump's evolving positions? has he been sucked into the establishment as john mccain gleefully said he hoped so. and three religious leaders talk about whether we should separate religion and whether we should. company says they'll only pay three-quarters of what it takes to replace it. what are you supposed to do? drive three-quarters of a car? now if you had liberty mutual new car replacement™, you'd get your whole car back. i guess they don't want you driving around on three wheels. smart. with liberty mutual new car replacement™, we'll replace the full value of your car. liberty stands with you™. liberty mutual insurance. guests can earn a how cafree night when theypring book direct on choicehotels.com and stay with us just two times? spring time. badda book. badda boom. or... badda bloom. seriously? book now at choicehotels.com
welcome back. panelists here, former republican senator john sununu. heather mcgee and andrea mitchell and mark leibovich from "the new york times." who does still live in this town. welcome all. >> thank you. >> i want to talk about the -- start with sort of the week of donald trump and his evolving positions. john sununu, what do you make of it? >> growing into the job maybe. on issues like nato, i think everyone knew that we weren't going to pull out of nato. everyone knew and understood that his rhetoric was in one place in the campaign and then it was going to be met with a reality. that nato serves a function, has great value, is important to our strategic alliances around the world. a lot is just the campaigner
coming to the oval office and recognizing what's real, what's doable. look, some of it on the domestic policy issues like bank or currency manipulation is going to kick back on the trump base because they don't expect that kind of thing to happen. >> here's andy sullivan, what on earth is the point of trying to understand him when there's nothing to understand? he has no guiding policy, no consistency at all. just whatever makes him feel good about himself this second. he therefore believes what bizarre nonfact he can cook up in the addled head or what the last person said. harsher response, andrea. >> i disagree. i think he likes to win and he's seen over the course of the last weeks that he wins when he listens to jared kushner, when he lists importantly -- >> we break into regular programming to take you to korea, on the peninsula on the demilitarized zone, you see here live pictures of the vice
president mike pence just arriving, landing in a helicopter. he's been there for the better part of a day, arriving into south korea for meetings as well as he did attend some easter sunday services and activity sets. vice president mike pence, of course, there, a day after a missile test that failed in north korea, about in the northeastern section of north korea. and he's now in the demilitarized zone, a space that is just a sliver separating the north and the south. north korea and south korea, now in the midst of an armistice, still technically at war. now, the dmz, the demilitarized zone, he's close to it or in the zone itself right now, in the zone, when you do arrive, there is a building where there were meetings that were held between the north and the south, it is basically a time capsule, going
back decades of when there was a different time, the north, the communists, the south, and the western united states, where they would meet and negotiate and discuss issues relevant at the time to the post armed conflict that had been happening during the korean war. we're now many decad later, bu vice president pence now visiting the dmz, the demi demilitarized zone, a space you actually, if you look over, it is completely green. there are no buildings. it is a space that the two sides, north korea and south korea stare each other down hour after hour and as was expected, he's not in the dmz technically. there is an approach zone. you arrive at gates. and we're taking the pictures live. you can see the camera is resetting as vice president mike
pence is getting into his vehicle and if this camera does actually refocus and redirect towards where the vice president is, he will be making his way towards the zone itself. this, again, a day after the missiles, one missile was tested, it was believed to be a medium range missile. could have been a solid fuel missile and that was one of the thoughts. this is from moments ago as he was arriving off a helicopter and moving into his suv and then moving actually in physically to the dmz, but the dmz has a buffer zone in the south, in south korea. the important point to make here is that seoul, south korea, is just 30 miles from here. which means so is north korea. this is why the two sides, the north and the south, as you look at some of the allied forces
here, the south korean armed forces as well, meeting the vice president, they work together with the united states, and u.s. forces some 28,000 close to 30,000 based in south korea, they often annually conduct practices together and this is -- right before mike pence does get into a vehicle and head into the demilitarized zone prop proper. he's spending almost a day there as we speak, watching pictures from moments ago. we'll continue to keep an eye on this as the vice president makes his way to the dmz. if we have more information in terms or pictures themselves, of his activity set there, we will get that to you here on msnbc. we'll take a short break and return to regular programming. (burke) at farmers, we've seen almost everything,
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so i got to speak right after senator widen at the one here in d.c. yesterday. honestly my expectations were very low. there are the sort of eaest tax da you know, kind of rallies by progressives saying we need more revenue. this was 25,000 people in d.c. alone. 200 rallies across the country. and the message was really quite uniform. it was show us your taxes. what are you hiding? who are you working for and then at the same time, we need economic justice and tax fairness. we're sick of hearing about how billionaires how little they pay in taxes. >> you can look at the rallies in two different ways. maybe the general public isn't as moved on the tax return issue but the fact that the rallies can happen fairly easily now on the left tells you the energy is son the left. >> i think there is a little bit of energy on the left, because trump provides a great focal point for them and it is -- >> sort of the way that obama did for the conservatives. >> sure. the coin flips, you know, the big tax rallies used to be conservatives marking, you know,
tax day. and how long do you have to work until you can actually pay your taxes and it gets later and later in the year. >> do you realize the majority of americans are okay with the amount of taxes they pay and last year they did not. >> three out of four americans wants him to release the tax returns. he kept saying it didn't matter because he lost the popular vote by 3 million votes, but people think it's unable that he thinks he's above the law. >> substantively, it doesn't matter. it doesn't matter for the policy decisions we have been talking about. it won't matter in his re-election because it didn't matter in his re-election in 2015. >> breaking into normal programming again here on msnbc at new york city. we are looking at pictures coming in from the demilitarized zone, mike pence, the vice president speaking. >> particularly humbling for me to be here. my father served in the korean war with the u.s. army. and on the way here, we ally
sa some of the terrain my father fought alongside korean forces to help earn your freedom. so we -- we're grateful to all those who each and every day stand in the gap for freedom, here at the dmz and it is a great honor to be with all of our forces and with the leadership represented here. thank you. >> thanks. >> the basic area we're in is called panmunjong, the place where -- >> video directly as it is happening. the vice president with short comments saying that his father served in the korean war and that it -- his father's efforts had contributed to the freedom that many south koreans multigenerations have been able to enjoy since on armistice day
each and every year, this is something where south koreans, where americans and those who serve and descendants of those who served in south korea for the u.s. armed forces do remember that key day, a remembrance of the sacrifice that was made by u.s. veterans to guarantee the freedom for south korea, and vice president mike pence remembering that, the dmz, a representation of that point in the war when they stopped fighting yet technically as was mentioned and has been mentioned before, they are still at war. vice president again beginning his ten day trip there in asia, finishing up his stops there in south korea. this on the heels of a missile -- failed missile test from north korea, a lot happening there on the korean peninsula, we'll continue to follow the vice president's trips and activities here on msnbc. for now, we continue to normal programming, but first --
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or a history of them. movantik may cause serious side effects, including symptoms of opioid withdrawal, severe stomach pain and/or diarrhea, and tears in the stomach or intestine. tell your doctor about any side effects and about medicines you take. movantik may interact with them causing side effects. why hold it in? have your movantik moment. talk to your doctor about opioid-induced constipation. if you can't afford your medication, astrazeneca may be able to help. pg&e learned a tragic lesson we can never forget. this gas pipeline ruptured in san bruno. the explosion and fire killed eight people. pg&e was convicted of six felony charges including five violations of the u.s. pipeline safety act and obstructing an ntsb investigation. pg&e was fined, placed under an outside monitor, given five years of probation, and required to perform 10,000 hours of community service. we are deeply sorry. we failed our customers in san bruno. while an apology alone will never be enough,
actions can make pg&e safer. and that's why we've replaced hundreds of miles of gas pipeline, adopted new leak detection technology that is one-thousand times more sensitive, and built a state-of-the-art gas operations center. we can never forget what happened in san bruno. that's why we're working every day to make pg&e the safest energy company in the nation. "meet the press" end game is brought to you by boeing. always working to build something better. welcome back. we're going to end the broadcast this easter sunday by discussing how religious leaders deal or don't deal with politics at a time when the country is so polarized and congregations are polarized. this week we brought together three faith leaders, t.j. jakes, pastor joanne hummel, and rabbi david sappersteen.
i began by asking them whether we should still abide by the old maxim to not mix religion and politics. >> it is a misnomer because it suggests that religion and politics are individuals when rd politics. >> well, it is impossible, because the ideologies are inherent in people, and so when you have people, you will be mixing the religiosity and the cultures and the fact is that they will inadvertently connect whether you want them to not. >> should we fight it? >> religion is an internal kind of thing that gets to the heart and the mind and politics is the outworking of the values and the things that are inside you, and soy see them very connected actually. >> sometimes i wonder if we overthought the phrase, rabbi. >> you can separate them into partisan politics and
reopitic, and they are interwoven with religion and in other words, when we talk about the poor and the vulnerable, and the biblical command to welcome in the stranger of the midst and protect them as ourselves and to protect god's creation, a and we are talking about the global warming, and the migrant policy, and so just as they with woven together and the prophets and the jesus of nazareth and everybody addressed the issue s in their time, we are so compelled to address it in ours. >> and pastor, you have not been afraid of politic, and rabbi obviously, but talk about some of the fellow pastors and bishops and rabbis? >> well, it is a thin line that you have to walk, because primarily people don't come to church to have you espouse religious believes. >> and they tell you the stick to faith. and stay away from the politics.
>> yes, and in the black congressgressions, they have a different expectation of the people who are voiceless lesof voiceless, and i thood grow into the fact that my responsibility was to represent the parishioner's issues and concerns without getting nuanced into the individual behind politics, but you do it at least have to confront the issues that are affecting your congregation. >> and pastor, where are you on this? >> yeah, i'm thinking about the people in the church who want to know how the think bib lilicall and so when they come to church, they are wrestling, because biblical illiteracy is increasing and so they are telling us not what to think, but but how the think. >> and as some synagogues are sanctuaries. >> yes. >> that is a big political statement for a synagogue to
make, and some congregants view it as, oh, you are taking sides. >> that is the paradox, because when we are feeding hungry people in our food programs and we are sheltering the homeless people in our homeless shelter or the programs, and we are welcoming the refugee, the stranger, the bible tells us that we should treat of ourselves in providing the shelter to them and sanctuary of them, we are living out the religious ideals and we have a pastoral responsibility to our parishioners, and so we have to not compromise our ability to do that, but with reteachers and leaders and the one who exemplifies how to apply our traditional values to the world about it is a difficult tight rope to walk but we have to encompass both of the responsibilities. >> you believe that you would be punished more if you ignored the
politics? >> well, it is consequences, and you can't walk out of the faith and ignore the environment in which your faith is exemplified and it is not an issue of the the you are going to be taking it on, but you have to look at how, and you have to understand that you are not going to be misunderstood or become silent and not heard at all. >> and maybe the evangelicals are going to set aside the moral outrage of bill clinton from donald trump? >> wow, that is hard one. i think that the moral underpinnings of the country and of our faith are challenged when these things, when a candidate trump talks about those things about women, and that is personally offensive to me, but i am not called upon to go to the pulpit and express my vies s of myself and i have to look at it from a a wider context of the scripture and what does the bible talk about how women are to be treated and how we should honor one another, and that is the message and not delve into
the political specifics and bring it back to the human and deeper human issue, and how are we dealing with that and what are the ways in which we do the same thing. >> do any of you see the rise of secularism as a rejection of the faith leaders or faiths and what is the rise to secularism to? >> well, you know, a lot of times, i am not sure that the rise is as high as some media purports that it is, and i think that faith has in many cases retreated back behind private walls, and i'm seeing a rejection of organized religion. the pew research suggests that millennials are retreating and not that they don't have faith, but they don't express it in the way that the parents have. and the the challenge of people of faith is not so much to wrestle against the secularism, but to remain relevant in a society that has lost faith in all institutions. and the onus is on us to recreate ourselves without
losing sight of the core principles and values. pastor? >> yes, and i am thinking when you say that, bishop, is how we have made heaven here especially in the west. we don't need to relate to that theology of heaven and rescue and salvation the way we always did, because what do we have to be rescued from, and we have everything that you need here and if you go to africa and the developing countries in the global south and there is no secularism there, because there is no development there or no personal wealth there, and so they are looking to god for everything that they have and there is such a joy in that and it reveals the joy of the human heart. >> so you see the rise of the sek cularism as a benefit of th society. >> yes, and what it is going to do is to layer over the needs of real people's hearts. church, andly bow the you guys r on this, but when people come into the crisis, they still come to the church. we are there in the crisis moments people'ves, and at the sick bed, the wedding
altar or the divorce court and there in the spaces where where people are hurting and the money can't help it, and the secular things that we have enveloped ourselves in can't save you. >> well, that is a full conversation for you. that is bishop t.j. jakes and pastor joanne hummel and rabbi david. and so we hope that you have a happy passover and easter, and go wizards. if it is "meet the press" it is end game. you can see more "end game" on the msnbc facebook page. it's over. i've found a permanent escape from monotony. together, we are perfectly balanced, our senses awake, our hearts racing as one. i know this is sudden,
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so what is the administration's plan to house the children or to reunite the families? my guest this morning republican senator james langford of oklahoma and independent senator angus king of maine who caucuses with the democrats. also, refugee crisis. why are so many people from central america coming to the united states? what are they fleeing? richard engel of nbc news has a report from his trip to el salvador. >> and political culture wars. white house press secretary sarah sanders is asked to leave a restaurant because she works for president trump. her father, mike huckabee tweets this picture with the caption, nancy pelosi introduces her campaign committee. is all of this the new normal? joining me for insight and analysis are nbc news capital news correspondent kasie hunt, and erick erickson editor of the resurgent. welcome to sunday. it's "meet the press". >> the longest-running show in television history, this is "meet the press" with chuck
families a year that are coming at the united states as a family unit. >> let's go to some specifics here because we haven't gotten a lot of answers from the trump administration, maybe you have gotten some of these answers. maybe they're fulfilling their duty to at least let you know what's going on in congress. do you know how many of these kids that have been separated -- how many of them are in shelters? how many of them are at detention facilities and how many of them are in foster care. do you know how many are a good idea with the categories. >> we know where every single child is. this is an issue that's gone out there in some of the other media and it's not been responsible with this with the assumption that the administration's lost track of that. so let me clarify a couple of things. these are career professionals that work with hhs and that work with dhs and customs and border patrol and i.c.e. these are not political appointees and they are career
adult they came with so the child and adult they came with, we don't know if that is the parent. oftentimes the parent that is somewhere in the country oftentimes illegally, as well. they came with another relative and so to be able to connect the dots to see if we connect them with their parent that's here in the country and connect them going through procedures and whatever that may be and yes, we are able to connect them as well. >> the child, you identify the parent and the child, then what happens? is the parent brought to where the child is? are they sent to a separate facility? what can you tell us about that situation? >> it's a mixture. we are trying to work through the process to connect through the adult and some of the adults are given an ankle monitoring system and an ankle bracelet and they get a notice to appear
hearing and as you put in your lead-in which was very well done. the flores settlement from 1997 says that you can only hold that job for 20 days and it takes about 35 days to get a hearing. what the court set up in 1997 was this conundrum. you have to either release them as they come as a family when they come into the country and hope they show up. to be very clear, only 2% of the family units that come to the united states illegally actually go through and actually had the notice to appear, finished up with the notice of removal and actually leave the country. so the family units that are coming here. 98% of them end up somewhere in the country, most of them illegally because they never actually leave after they're given the responsibility for an order of removal. >> your congressional fix here and let's get to the 20-day conundrum. the trump administration's asking for relief from the courts. they're probably not going to get it because the obama administration asked for the very same relief.
hearing. >> are you in favor of using military bases to house these families? it appears dhs has made a request to the defense department. is that something you think is a good idea. >> >> president obama used basis for the minors and some were in my home state in oklahoma which by the way, members of congress from my state tried to visit those facilities that are in my state where president obama was holding the unaccompanied minors and they were turned away at the door and told they were not allowed in. this is something new the trump administration is doing blocking people out. no, it's the exact same policy hhs had before. we made an appointment and after we made an appointment we were able to go through the process. >> should that be the process or should there be more transparency? do you think the white house has been fully transparent with the american public about what they're trying to do here? >> i don't, actually. this has been one of the great frustrations. the white house has not been clear on how bad the flores settlement is. they tried to say it, say it and say it. you shouldn't allow just anyone
to view a spot with children. this has been policy, if you're coming to the location where there's children, we need to know who you are and we have to know background and we can't trust that you have an i.d. and if you do that you can get in as a member of congress just like president obama had the children at a military base as well. >> my final question is whether the president is creating more problems or making it harder to solve by the rhetoric he's using. this is how he's described people coming across the border just this week, senator. take a listen. >> they could be murderers and thieves. >> they endanger all of our children. >> millions of people flowing up and just overtaking the country. >> they're human traffickers, they're coyotes. we're getting some real beauties.
>> we want people in our country based on merit. not based on a draw where other countries put their absolute worse in a bin and they start drawing people. >> do you believe that rhetoric demonizes immigrants and makes your job harder? >> it does, actually, but the challenge of it is there is a percentage where the president is absolutely correct on that. >> what's the percentage? the percentage is pretty small. >> it is. it is pretty small. >> to do two for two -- go ahead, sorry. >> i would prefer the president would say the folks are coming for check reasons they want to be flee into an area where they have greater economic opportunities. every family wants to be able to see that for their family, but there are also some individuals that are there. on average, every day dhs stops or interdicts ten people that are on the terror watch list trying to come into the country. so i have a real concern that we're demonizing law enforcement folks that really are trying to be able to do their job because there are very real threats, but the vast majority of individuals are coming for economic reasons and they're coming from central america and they're not fleeing to costa rica, belize or ecuador
who have great asylum laws. they're coming to the united states because they want the economic opportunities and not just asylum and they're trying to come for economic gains and i don't blame them for that, but to tell you the truth, 1.1 million people a year become citizens legally and this can be done legally, but the challenge is for those individuals that's a much smaller number that are doing it illegally, how do you process that? >> senator langford, i'm going to leave it there. thank you for coming on and sharing your views. much appreciate it. >> thank you. joining me from brunswick, maine, is independent. i want a perspective from the other side of the aisle. >> good to be with you, chuck. >> are we misnamed this? is this a refugee crisis more than it is a migrant or immigration crisis? >> think it is. i think that's exactly right. it's more of an asylum and refugee. it's important to make distinctions. these are almost entirely people
coming from central america and not mexico, particularly honduras, el salvador and guatemala, and they're fleeing violence and that's one of the reasons that this deterrent may not work, if you're looking down the barrel of a gun in your home community, whatever your chances are to get to a free country, you're going to take it in order to save your family's life. so if that really is what we're talking about here and this is different from, very different from the waves of illegal immigrants coming across the border 15, 20 years ago, mostly from mexico, simply looking for jobs. mexican migration has diminished enormously. >> if it is -- if you believe it should be treated more as a refugee crisis. for instance, how we handled the cubans in the '50s and the '60s and vietnamese in the '70s. how has the approximately see changed -- does the government intervention, should it be different if it's a refugee crisis? well, yeah, because if you're
crossing the border illegally with no claim of asylum or refugee status, then that's a crime and we have a process for deportation. people have -- people coming to claim asylum are not illegal immigrants and under the law they have a right to establish their claim of asylum that are in legitimate fear for their life and they're fleeing persecution in their country and that applies to people from other parts of the world, but you have that right and the problem is james langford mentioned this. we don't have enough judges and there's a bureaucratic backlog to get adjudicated. what do you do with the people in the interim and the administration made a terrible choice of separating children from their parents and now they're saying well, we'll keep them together and we'll keep them together in detention. i don't think that's a necessary choice either. there's a lot of data that there are alternatives to detention that can still ensure that people show up for their court
hearing which by the way are a lot cheaper for the taxpayers. >> very quickly on this senator langford, he's leaving to fix the flores amendment and you heard a lot of ways to do that, defund it completely and make it something and the administration can't do it and extend it to 60 days rather than 20 days. what do you favor and i know a bill with senator feinstein, but there's no republican support, and i assume it's a bipartisan deal. are there things that you can support? >> well, there are a number of proposals kicking around and i was in a meeting in susan collins' office and it was very interesting sitting next to dianne feinstein and ted cruz. ted cruz and dianne both have a bill. the opportunity to vote for a
feinstein/cruz bill. they're talking about not separating and talking about some alternatives and this is where the discussion is, does it have to be detention? i don't like the defunding idea and that's essentially saying, you know, the courts, we're not going to listen to you. i don't think that makes sense, but i think some additional time may be true, but i want to talk about how do we deal with these people? the other thing, chuck, we've got to talk about is what's going on in these countries and why is this surge coming toward us. >> right. >> in fact, before the program this morning james and i were talking about going to central america. he's been there a couple of times. >> right. >> and trying to figure out what can we do to stabilize those regimes so people don't feel they have to run for their lives to america. >> i'm curious, considering what
happened in 2014 when the obama administration was tackling essentially the same surge of folks coming from central america. the obama administration didn't exactly welcome those folks with open arms either. the goal was, while they didn't separate, the goal was to get them back to the home country as quickly as possible. was that a mistake in hindsight? >> i think they were overwhelmed. if you go back and read about that period, and i went with a couple of other senators to mcallen, texas, during that period to see how these kids were being treated. the difference between then and now, three years ago they were unaccompanied kids. what's happened this time is kids are coming with their families, with their parents and they're being separated and that's what i think caused this firestorm, but there clearly has to be a better way to deal with this, and i think there are alternatives to detention, more judges and more timely processing of these things because we're a nation of immigrants, number one, except for the african-americans who were brought here, against their will and the native american, but all the rest of us are immigrants and also asylum seekers. the pilgrims were escaping religious persecution. >> right. >> andrew sullivan argues this
week, just give trump his wall. he used more colorful language than that and go get something for it if you're the democrats. give him his wall because maybe there will be more heart in the rest of these policies and the rest of this migrant crisis. are you there yet? give the president has wall and figure this out? >> ironically, chuck, we did that. mike grounds and i had an amendment and it was the one that got the most votes on the floor of the senate. we got 54 votes. it was in a sense daca for the wall, and the wall was fully funded. the democratic caucus voted, i think, 46 out of 48 member, and 49 members for it. that was a hard sell, but the white house itself torpedoed the bill. they threatened to veto and they sent out a scurrilous press release from dhs and we had the votes. we had probably 65, 67 votes. they killed it. they had the wall in their hand and they let it go because they wanted more and the question is they keep sort of raising the ante and saying you have to
limit legal immigration. you've got to change this. you've got to change that and that's one of the problems is we never know what the goal line is. >> want to show you a movement growing on the democratic side of the aisle and a hash tag, abolish i.c.e. referring to the enforcement agency when it comes to immigration. listen to kamala harris said about the idea of abolishing i.c.e. >> i think there's no question that we have to critically re-examine i.c.e. and its role and the way it is being administered and we probably need to think about starting from scratch. >> what do you make of that? is i.c.e. the bigger problem here? >> i don't -- i don't know how you abolish an agency without abolishing the function and i think the function is necessary. as far as what she said about examining what they're doing, that's absolutely what we should do and it's our responsibility to provide oversight and ultimately there would have to be an agency.
before i.c.e. there was ins and there was a way to enforce the immigration laws in the country, but taking a look at how they're doing it and how they're approaching it. the question we had -- we had a border patrol stop up here in maine a couple of weeks ago. is that constitutional? do we stop american citizens in the middle of a highway and ask for their papers? there are a lot of questions to be answered. i don't know if i say abolish. i don't think that makes a lot of sense, but i do think looking at it makes a hell of a lot of sense. >> senator angus king, independent senator from maine, thanks for coming on and sharing your views, sir. >> thanks, chuck. when we come back, more on what's behind the border crisis. you heard both senators refer to the issue in central america. nbc news chief foreign correspondent richard engel is back from el salvador, one of the countries where life is so
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richard engel returned last night from a trip to el salvador where he reported why people are willing to risk this dangerous journey and family separation to come to the united states and richard joins me now from seaside, california, where we made him stop here to get on our show. richard, thanks very much. let me start with this. normally i'm talking to you and you're in a war zone somewhere, maybe you're in syria, maybe you're in north africa or maybe somewhere in asia, but here you are in central america. does it feel like the war zones you cover when you cover the war? >> reporter: it felt very much like a war zone, a low-grade war zone and there were places in el salvador where you can't go, and where the police and government don't feel safe to go. we're talking about a population of 100,000 active gang members and when you have that many people with guns and when you have a government that doesn't feel in control of the capital city, then you're having a war zone dynamic. people we talked to said they're afraid to go out in the
countryside. when they do they see gang members carrying their weapons openly. there are gang checkpoints stopping you, asking you where you're from and what affiliation you have and if they don't like your answers they will kill you and drop you in the street. we went to a prison and met very hard-core gang members and one of them bragged to us that he'd killed 35 people just himself and when you have that number of dangerous people who feel that emboldened it is not surprising that people want to leave the country and seek different opportunities and don't want their children to get sucked into the gang life and have them become the next generation of killers or victims. >> in some ways you've spent way too much time in syria for us at nbc. compare the story in el salvador. how much of that country are they actually governing and how much of it are the gangs in charge of this. is it like syria where you had
parts of the country governed by certain entities? >> reporter: well, not just the 100,000 people or so who are active gang members, there are some estimates that you have to multiply that number by five or ten to get the real number of people who are actually affiliated with gangs, supported with gangs, make their lively hood with gangs and this is a small country, el salvador. we're only talking 6.5 million people. that is roughly one in ten people there is either a gang member or makes their livelihood from a gang member. we're talking about 10% of the population, just of the population living outside the law, and this is a population that is armed. so they are able to control and exert their will over a lot more of the percentage than that. so there are large parts of the country that are not fully under the government's control. >> i'm curious, you spent a lot of times on the front lines covering the migrant crisis into southern europe. give me some similarities,
differences between what you witnessed with this migrant crisis coming up from central america. >> so you were talking to a lot of your guests earlier. is this a refugee crisis from central america or a migrant crisis? usually they're always mixed together. you have people fleeing from war zones and people actively afraid for their lives and want more economic opportunities. but what i haven't seen before is this family separation. as i was there in central america, watching the people try to leave, watching them be deported back home i remembered covering this massive migration crisis that was in europe a few years ago, and we saw lots and lots of refugees and lots and lots of migrants, but we didn't see authorities deliberately separating people from families. they didn't see it as necessary and productive. i was in hun garry and hungary has most aggressive, hardline,
anti-immigration crisis and people are coming into hungary, and i remember one image seared in my brain, they were on the bus and people on the bus started becoming hysterical. they were shouting and under guard and very agitated. what happened is one of the family members on the bus had gotten separated from their child so everybody on the bus started to scream. the bus stopped. they opened the windows and people on the ground lowered -- raised the child, raised the baby on to the bus so the family could stay together and the family drove off, the bus drove off. even in hungary that has one of the most anti-immigration policy in the world right now, they were stopping the busses and making sure the people could be reunited with their families because they didn't want to inflict any more trauma on to the people, so they could control the situation and not cause unnecessary agitation and stress.
>> richard engel, you've seen quite a bit of this in your travels around the world, richard. thanks for your reporting. much appreciated. before we go to break, a quick programming note. jacob soboroff, tonight he'll be reporting on the crisis on dateline sunday called "the dividing line" it airs at 7:00, 6:00 central. we'll be right back with the panel and donald trump's first very real re-tweet as president. (vo) new purely fancy feast filets. like nothing you, or she, has ever seen. filets of 100% real natural chicken or seafood. handcrafted, and served any way she wants.
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back now with the panel. stephen hayes, editor in chief of the weekly standard. heather mcgee, nbc news capitol hill, kasie hunt and erick eriksson. >> steve hayes, president trump had his first retreat and you could argue the first guardrail that the republican party signed on to to erect him and reverse himself. what does that mean? >> it was the public pressure. the president didn't do this easily and this is an ad hoc president leaving his staff and congressional republicans to scramble in his wake and try to make things right. if you think about the white house line on this, the line that the president's supporters took. they went from separating families was the right thing to do, to the separating families were terrible, but democrats made us do it, it's awful and only congress can fix it to the president's executive order has solved the problem and obviously there's inconsistency there. you're seeing the president scramble and he doesn't know what he thinks and this is a president with a variety of positions on this broad,
immigration issue. remember he in 2012 criticized mitt romney for his self-deportation plan as maniacal, crazy and mean spirited and he's pushing a plan that i think we'd all agree is more aggressive than mitt romney's. >> heather? >> i think this is what the president of the united states' ace in the hole. he was very clear. my people love the family separation thing. you would think the president saying my people would mean all of us, but no. he's weaned on these negative images as immigrants of all kinds as criminals and gang members and he doubled down by saying holding that press conference by saying we have an epidemic of people being killed by undocumented immigrants when we know that immigrants, whether they're undocumented or not commit crimes at lower rates than native-born americans. this is a political strategy to divide americans to make us feel like there's a sense of panic and fear and actually think any time we use the word crisis to
talk about border crossings that are at a 40-year low, we're actually feeding into that. frankly, there are things he's doing to the economy, threats to health care, tax handout to the very wealthy that are things that he wants to distract from and that's what's happening here. >> he made the case, it's good for me and good for the party and i thought i understand why he thinks it's good for him. it's been good for his political career. what do you make of his claim that it's good for the party for the midterms? >> this is the first time that i can remember some of his evangelical leaders speaking up and criticizing him which is significant when you've had evangelicals who stood up with him through everything and criticizing him and having to walk back and having the president who is the best negotiator, walking this back himself and i don't think this is good for the party. he thinks there are 2 billion news cycles between now and november. this isn't going to anchor the party. >> kasie, this is the first time that i thought a subject that i think about this sunday is now the same subject, that i'm
questioning this sunday. that is a rare occasion and i think it tells you the potency of the issue. >> i'm with you, chuck and i remember thinking the same thing last sunday as we were heading into the news week. you wonder is this the story that will be different and will carry through? you're absolutely right that this one did, and i also think it's the first time and erick mentioned the evangelical leaders and it's the first time congressional republicans looked at something the president did and said no way. how many times have we asked ourselves, charlottesville, the muslim ban, when will republican leaders stand up to the president? and the answer is when we saw the awful images of children being separated and there was not a person that i could find saying this is what we should be doing. no, yes, we have problems at the border and there were disagreements among republicans about thou to handle asylum claims and should we build the wall, but to a person, no one wanted to defend this? >> what's the bigger threat? how he's handling the issue of immigration or how he handles the cleanup of this.
i want to bring up people who said this is his, quote, katrina. i want to put up a quote and george w. bush wrote about katrina. just as katrina was more than a hurricane, this is what president bush wrote, its impact was more than physical destruction, and it cast a cloud over my second term. it is possible, heather and steve that how they reunify or don't reunify becomes a competency issue and not a partisan issue. >> i would say maria has been president trump's katrina and i think this is another similar issue where there's just this callousness and particularly to the latino community in this
country and in this part of the world, that shows that they really don't care and when a government doesn't care, you begin to erode the trust, and i think part of what's happened here is that we now have even with the executive order. we now have in every single state hundreds of thousands of people pledging to go to the border, to go to their state capitals on june 30th to rally. this has become a cultural flash point. >> i would just add to that, the main difference what you said about president trump is that president trump wants to exacerbate these decisions. president trump lamented those -- it regretted what it did. president trump wants to do this, but look, so do the democrats. it was a thoughtful, substantive conversation. >> by the way, they are in the 40-yard line of american politics. >> and the politics here, i think, one of the reasons you don't have solutions to the broader immigration problem is because it works politically for both parties and extremes of both parties. kamala harris talking about abolishing i.c.e., that's the
solution where we'll abolish the bureaucracy? >> this is an agency, that's not the point. >> the point is, she's offering an extreme solution that doesn't actually solve any problem because somebody -- >> to build on heather's point here and i want to get casey in here, is this in the way that conserves will say abolish the irs which is sort of a ridiculous proposition and is this going to become that abolish the irs chant? >> i think it's becoming a litmus test for this issue in potentially a 2020 primary situation and if you think about kamala harris in particular, she has been very consistent, quite frankly, if you're an activist on immigration, she is one of your people. she took a vote in the senate and one of only three democrats that bucked the county on a compromise.
she is to the -- i don't quite want to describe this as to the left. >> of the mainstream presidential on this issue. she is setting the bar for where that is and people, frankly, are responding and the event we went to cover and she went to visit a detention center where mothers were separated and they didn't organize a rally, but there were hundreds of people that showed up on the street and some with organizations and the aclu and others and they came to see her. >> it will be a fascinating debate if that percolates. you have angus king there and you will have the debate about i.c.e. in these primaries and let me take a quick break. when we come back, we'll change gears a bit and president trump said it's easy to win a trade war and there are losers in the united states and guess who most of them voted for? before we go to break, a word about someone we lost this week and charles krauthammer began a career as a psychologist and became political reknowned, and a diving accident at the age of 22 left him a quadriplegic. krauthammer was a neoconservative. in his tv appearances, he was tough and rigorous and never disagreeable.
he appeared on "meet the press" six times and most recently he was on fox news the morning of election day with quite the far-sighted prediction of what a trump presidency might mean. >> the first thing he will do is he will irreversibly re-shape the party. this was the party of reagan, and the bush years were sort of an echo of the reagan years. reagan defined the contours of the party. trump will do that and it will be changed, particularly the most obvious issues are going to be immigration and trade. this will be a -- it will be a populist party. >> talk about being prescient. charles krauthammer was 68. possibilities than ever before. and american express has your back every step of the way- whether it's the comfort of knowing help is just a call away with global assist. or getting financing to fund your business.
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low, and in iowa, for example, the des moines register estimates the new tariffs could cost soybean farmers in the state, and the political consequences could be significant for the president's part especially going into the mid-terms this november. these are the top ten soy-producing states in the united states. eight of them voted for donald trump in 2016 and guess what? he came really close and won more, minnesota. a whopping 95%. the repercussions of president trump's trade policies are hurting the very people who supported him the most. the top soybean states all have either a governor's race, senate race or both this year. minnesota has two senate seats up. these red or trending red places could very well turn back into toss-ups or even go blue after november. of course, there are lots of reasons folks in these states support donald trump, and some like the tough talk, it has a lot of front, steel, aluminum and cars are on the horizon. when we're seeing now in the midwest may only be the beginning. when we come back, endgame and
how our political culture wars, whatever you want to call them these days just got a lot nastier. ♪ ♪ back now with "endgame." all right, we had a couple of interesting former republicans, i guess, calling for democrats to take control of house. michael bloomberg, he's going to support flipping the house. he says republicans in congress have had almost two years to prove they can govern responsibly and they failed and it's critical we elect people who lead in ways this congress don't. i forgot. chevy also won a j.d. power dependability award for its light-duty truck the chevy silverado. oh, and since the chevy equinox and traverse also won chevy is the only brand to earn the j.d. power dependability award across cars, trucks and suvs-three years in a row. phew. third time's the charm...
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♪ back now with "endgame." al back now with "end game." all right. we had a couple of interesting former republicans, i guess, calling for democrats to take control of house. first you had michael bloomberg. he's going to support flipping the house. he says republicans in congress have had two years they could govern responsibly. they failed. as we approach the 2018 mid terms it is critical wee elect people would can lead in ways this congress won't. you can argue whether bloomberg was a republican before, switched to democrat. i'll take your point. how about george will? the republican caucus must be substantially reduced so substantially their remnants reduced to minorities will be stripped of the article 1 constitutional powers. a legislature whose unexercised muscles have atrophied because of people like them. mr. eriksson, what do you make of this?
>> i disagree with my friend george will. i agree congress has let their muscles atrophy in legtsing congress. it is a class of pundits as opposed to a class of legislators. it is a real problem on both sides of the aisle where both sides want the issue to campaign on. i do think there is a danger for democrats, though, in that typically in the midterms you depend on an incumbent party that doesn't turnout. and the progressive culture war, the immigration issues and whatnot, are firing up the republican base. >> kasie? >> you know, one risk here that i do think -- when i read george will's comment about difficuming these majorities, congress doesn't realize if they get really close that they don't actually -- if democrats don't actually win the house, you're going to be left with the narrow est of republican majorities and that's going to hand all of the power to the far-right of the conference. so, if republicans, if never trump republicans want democrats to win the house, they better get their acts together and work
as hard as they can otherwise the consequence are going to be worse. >> embrace your new progressive friend george will. >> you know, listen, i have been asking for republicans to put country over party since, since trump walked down those stairs. so i absolutely believe that this is the beginning of the change and rebirth of the republican party which is going to be necessary. it's too far to the fringe. we have the fringe in the white house and this country is not going to be able to be a bipartisan country in the republicans continue to have this identity. eight steve, i would say you're in the middle of this fight inside the movement. i won't call it your party, but the conservative movement right. one wing versus this trump wing. >> it's not my party. there is no question that what you're seeing is an ideological scramble. george will is making a long-term argument. most members of congress is living the short term. that's the big challenge. >> very diplomatic, by the way. >> the culture wars reared their
ugly head this weekend. we had sarah sanders get kicked out of a restaurant by the owner because she worked for president trump. you had mike huckabee use pretty disgusting sort of tweet, picture here to describe nancy pelosi and her campaign committee using gang members on that. eric eriksson, you were critical of -- >> all of it. >> of all of it. and interestingly, you were almost apologetic. your younger self might have participated in some of this. >> yeah. >> is this the new normal? is this going to get even ugly er? >> i think it is going to get uglier. james hodge kin is more of an anomaly than inflection point. if both sides don't rein it in, no, you started it, this happened, this happened. i had trump supporters show up on my front porch to threaten my family. you have the secretary of homeland security progressive activists show up at her house to protest her. you have people getting thrown
out of restaurants. if we can't agree to disagree and let each other be and nielgter side wants to do that, it becomes a problem. we have -- as religion in the country fades and society becomes more secular, people are finding their salvation in their morals and politics and that's a bad thing. >> i actually think there is a big difference between one of the most powerful people in the world, sarah sandehuckabee sand using her government platform to claim victim status. she is distracting from that and the way the policy is victimizing the least powerful people on the planet, refugee children. there is a difference between being discriminated against for who you are and being judged for what you do. and that's what we saw. >> chuck, i think one thing, too, here is people -- the tenor of the debate on whether or not there are people across the other side of the aisle who you might be able to work with has completely fallen apart. i feel like even -- >> you see it a lot on capitol hill. >> you used to be -- there were these great alliances and friendships.
ted kennedy, al warner. people worked together and you saw that reflected in voters as well. voters were willing to consider voting for somebody else. the tribalism of this, i just fail to see if you think that just because you're a member of the other party that there is no circumstance under which you can work with that person -- is scary. >> there is power in persuasion. >> whatever happened to the golden rule, if everybody just did golden rule with the w we might be in a tiny bit better place. that's all for today. thanks for watching. we're going to continue this conversation. for now we'll be back next week because if it's sunday it's "meet the press." ♪ this is a story about mail and packages. and it's also a story about people. people who rely on us every day to deliver their dreams they're handing us more than mail
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"morning joe" starts now. i want to talk to the trump supporters for a minute. what is his campaign about? he's a race baiting religious bigot. you know how you make america great again, tell donald trump to go to hell. if you can't admire jobe e bides a person you have a problem. you need to do some self-evaluation. what's not to like? he's as good a man as god ever created. he's said some of the most heart felt things anybody could say to me. he's the nicest person i think i ever met in politics. this is a defining moment not future of the republican party. we have to reject this demagogue demagoguery. if we don't, we have lost the moral authority to govern this great nation. >> the new ad from the group republican voters against trump. the ad is set to run on fox news in charlotte, north carolina, washington d.c., greenville, south carolina. that's lindsey graham's home state. good morning and welcome to "morning joe," it's monday june 15th. with us we have white house reporter jonathan lemire, host of politics nation and president of the national action network reverend al sharpton. nbc news capitol hill correspondent and host kasie hunt. and political analyst robert costa, the moderator of washington week on pbs. unrest in atlanta this morning after the fatal police involved shooting of a black man in the parking lot of a wendy's restaurant. one officer has been fired, another on administrator duty. plus a spike in coronavirus cases in several states, arizona, texas and florida reporting their highest number of cases yet. amid criticism president trump moves the date of his tulsa rally from juneteenth to june 20th, quote, out of respect for the occasion. >> kasie hunt, you work capitol hill, you think there may be a little bit of discomfort in the lindsey graham camp this morning? the ad really makes every argument that joe biden and his campaign team would ever want to make, and they make it from one of donald trump's closest allies on capitol hill. >> his own voice. >> yeah and in a very -- you can hear the sincerity in lindsey graham's voice. when i first started covering capitol hill, joe biden was still in the senate. and he, as lindsey graham lays out there, has always been one of the most well-liked and personally respected people in washington. and, you know, one of the things that i think the biden campaign has done well, and we obviously talked a lot about the primary about the doubts how things were going and a lot of hand ringing and hemming and hawing, but they have been running all the way along with the message of basic decency, that is the message that the campaign is putting at the forefront. they are saying we're going to return to normalcy and decency and that lines right up with the person that their candidate actually is. you can't ask for anything else than that. if you're trying to get someone elected. if you're a campaign official trying to work on someone's behalf. joe, lindsey graham's situation is interesting. i'm skeptical that any democrat could win in south carolina in that senate race but he tacked so close to president trump over the course of the last year because he was so afraid of this primary and people are really turning against the president here in the final months of this campaign and he actually does have a credible democratic challenger in jamie harrison, a former aide to jim clyburn. we haven't heard lindsey graham talk about this but there are things he said that caught my eye in terms of whether he's politically shifting here. it's a very interesting ad for a lot of reasons. >> bob costa, the trump campaign has spent so much money trying to vilify joe biden and going off of the script of 2016 where they knew they were -- had an unpopular candidate who wasn't liked by a majority of people, wasn't respected by even close to a majority of people, seen as not honest and not trust worthy by the overwhelming majority of americans so they decided to destroy hillary clinton, who proved to be an easier target than joe biden is proving to be right now. they understand they have to destroy joe biden. it may not be as simple this year to destroy their opponent as it was four years ago. >> that's right, joe. it's because the fight now for the trump campaign is not just against the biden campaign. it's also against that group of never-trump republicans, the lincoln project. what you see here with this lindsey graham ad is an attempt to soften president trump's support among traditional republican voters because you have a traditional republican, a conservative in lindsey graham, there's not an expectation that jamie harrison, the democrat in south carolina is somehow going to get a sudden lift. he's a strong candidate for the democrats in had the south, still a tough race for the democrats. but the democrats look at the map and look at not just south carolina but georgia and texas and florida, and think if some republicans can stay home, maybe think about voting for joe biden this entire map could change and they see the numbers changing in many of the polls. >> many of the polls. and jonathan lemire this weekend for the first time, joni ernst fell behind the approval rating dropping in the five years she's been there to her lowest numbers. and a democrat leading in iowa. private polls show donald trump falling behind in iowa. you look at montana and you have governor bullock running his first adds. of course really bad news for republican senate candidates in arizona, in colorado, in maine. north carolina is going to be a real challenge for them. you have an article out this morning about the problems that these senate candidates are having running with donald trump and we're looking at joni ernst too promised to be this tough, conservative, independent voice going to washington d.c., time and time again we've seen her embarrass herself by going to town hall meetings and not being able to just tell the truth about donald trump's failures. >> joe, first of all, you'll see i got the memo about the tie to wear today. >> very good. >> look at you guys. >> we look great. the conversation dove tails with the article we have out this morning tha about the dilemma some republicans are facing, how closely do they embrace president donald trump with just five months until they face re-election again. susan collins in maine are creating more distance. those are the ones the white house are watching closely. president trump posted about the fierce closeness with the republicans. but they're watching for cracks in that, and senator graham is one. they're seeing -- they want to watch republicans who don't have to face the base right now. don't have to face just primary voters for a little while trying to create distance and i saw lindsey graham speak out for general milley who spoke out about the photo op two weeks ago. president trump sent out a letter demanding loyalty, he doesn't want a break in the resolve they've had, thinking that will show a sign of weakness headed into the summer and fall re-election campaign. but joe you are right there are warning signs across the map for republicans right now and president trump in particular. senator ernst is down in polling. the president is neck and neck there with joe biden in a state he won comfortably. there are warning signs in other states, ohio, georgia, others and, of course, the map of battlegrounds seem to be expanding including a place like arizona where there is a democratic candidate ahead in the polls and the president knows at this point he's losing. if he loses arizona he loses the entire map and puts more pressure on him in the rust belt. we have more politics ahead but let's get to the latest on the coronavirus. the death toll this morning is at nearly 117,000 americans and the fear of a second wave is now a reality for many parts of the country. for weeks health experts warn once states begin to reopen a surge in cases will follow. thousands of americans have been sickened by the virus in new and alarming outbreaks. according to the "new york times" as of saturday coronavirus cases were climbing in 22 states, particularly in the sun belt region and the west. over the weekend, florida saw its largest single day count of cases since the pandemic began. the state of oregon paused its gradual reopen due to a spike in cases. hospitals in arizona have been urged to activate emergency plans to cope with a flood of coronavirus patients, as the number of cases there have climbed by nearly 300% since may 1st and have roughly doubled since memorial day, according to cnbc. officials in texas also say hospitals are scrambling to accommodate a surge in cases with numbers swiftly rising around the largest cities, including houston, san antonio and dallas. meanwhile, the tulsa city-county health department, the director, expressed concern about covid-19's increasing spread in the city and said he wishes president trump would postpone his campaign rally set for this weekend to a later date. it's supposed to take place there. according to the tulsa world dr. bruce dart said the city is seeing a, quote, significant increase in case trends that makes a large gathering like the rally dangerous not only for attendees but the president himself. officials reported 225 new cases of covid-19 over the weekend. marking a new high in daily increases for the state and tulsa county. so far president trump's re-election campaign declined to comment to nbc news on what, if any, guidelines from the cdc they plan to enforce in tulsa after making supporters, who signed up to attend the rally, agree not to hold the campaign liable if they contract the coronavirus. >> bob kcosta, time and again yu had the president complaining watching images of people marching in the streets saying if they can do that why can't i hold my rallies again. >> this is a significant challenge for the white house in the coming weeks. you hear white house officials and advisers to the president over the weekend that they are blaming mexico and the border for some of the cases around the border of this country, the sun belt. yet at the same time the president is holding this rally in oklahoma. and if the president wants to blame mexico in the coming months and wants to blame protesters for the black lives matter movement and others protesting racial injustice, he will also have to contend with a fact that he is holding mass gatherings himself. >> yeah, and i'm wondering, did the west point cadets have to click on a disclaimer because about 1,100 spent two weeks in quarantine so the president could deliver the commencement address to the class of 2020 on saturday. the event sparked concerns about the president's own health, particularly this moment over the weekend where he cautiously descended a ramp during the commencement speech at west point academy. the exit, might have gone otherwise unnoticed but the president brought more attention to it after he tweeted late saturday night, the ramp i descended after my west point commencement speech was long and steep and had no handrail, and most importantly was very slippery. the last thing i was going to do is fall for the fake news to have fun with. final ten feet i ran down to the level ground, momentum. there's no indication that the ramp was slippery on a clear sunny day. he also raised questions during his speech after taking a moment to sip the water with his right hand but needing further assistance from his left. >> jonathan lemire, we don't know about his health care. a lot of people talking about the president's health. we'll leave it to the doctors for that. but it is images like this and even his speaking ability, or lack thereof, during this again undercuts their argument that biden is a dottering old man and they should elect somebody with more energy than joe biden when clip for clip, stumble for stumble, donald trump seems to be right in line with joe biden or in my -- >> way out front. >> -- in many cases, even worse. >> that's right, joe. certainly the matter of a president's health is of great importance to the american public. there have been some questions about the information reported and president trump's previous physicals. but you're right, we'll leave over others to speculate what was happening on saturday. we know the president often appears cautious when he walks on stairs and ramps. and, of course, he can't let any slight go so he had to tweet about it and calling attention to it. i like the ending, any tweet or conversation with the world momentum. in terms of politics of this, the trump campaign for months now has been trying to suggest that joe biden was not up for the job. both candidates are in their 70s. trump and his allies suggested that biden lost a step, and done so not subtly, we've seen it in web ads and clips all the time. but it is harder to make that case where we see video like this, where the president himself is having momentary stumbles, lapses in -- looks straining for a word or whatever it might be. and i think for -- i talked to a republican aide over the weekend who, you know, made a point of pointing out joe biden when he spoke last week in philadelphia had a moment like that where his talk trailed off and the trump campaign itself blasted that video out to the followers. but he had to acknowledge it's harder to make that argument when you have these clips going around the media the same weekend. >> he wanted the photo op and visual speaking to the cadets but he got these moments. i still question having this event. forcing these cadets to come and stay for with weeks to interact and stay together at an event. it's dangerous and unnecessary. and the president once again is pushing for a photo op over people's health. moving on now we're seeing outrage and anger in atlanta over another police involved shooting of an unarmed black man. according to the georgia bureau of investigation, 27-year-old ray shad brooks was fatally shot outside a wendy's restaurant after two police officers responded to a report of a man sleeping in a vehicle in the doctor drive-thru. we want to warn you the video of the incident might be disturbing. authorities say brooks failed a sobriety test and this police body camera footage shows the struggle that insues as they tried to arrest him. video shows both officers on the ground trying to arrest him. he was able to grab one of the officers' tasers and run away. security footage shows brooks turning back and pointing the taser toward one of the officers, appearing to fire it. the officer returned with fatal gun fire. the shooting promoted protests on saturday near the wendy's restaurant, which was set on fire. the officer who discharged his gun has been fired. the second officer has been placed on administrative duty. and atlanta's police chief, erika shields, resigned yesterday. according to an autopsy the fatal police shooting has been ruled a homicide. the medical examiner said brooks suffered two gun shot wounds to the back. the lawyer representing the family of rayshard brooks said the officers had other options. >> they didn't have to take this man or attempt to take him into custody because he was sleeping in his car. he was trying to do the right thing, he didn't want to drive drunk, he was stopped, he was not a threat to anyone. they could have taken his keys, said what's your wife's number, call her, come pick you up. they could have done any number of things. just because you tussle with an officer shouldn't be a death sentence for anyone. >> so reverend al, one expert in the "new york times" told the "new york times" that this was an issue of a situation that police officers call lawful, but awful. at the same time we're here in the midst of these marches over george floyd, this national conversation on police brutality, and just so many questions linger why the police officers shot this man for resisting arrest and running away with dui. >> in the middle of this national conversation, as you say, where we actually seeing legislation in some states and in minneapolis a whole revamping of policing. it is beyond me to even begin to fathom why police, in atlanta, where they've also had incidents, would take out his gun and shoot at somebody in the back that's fleeing. yes, the man was inebriated, yes, the man had resisted and got into a verbal confrontation and taken one of the stun guns. but there was no threat to this officer's life. there was no life extenuating circumstances, which is what is required to use fatal fire and the man was fleeing. you don't shoot a fleeing felon. and i think the mayor there, keisha lance bottoms did the right thing by immediately calling for the firing of this officer and i expect he may be brought up on charges i spoke to the lawyers in this case. i think you have to look at it in the larger context of joe that is why we need to deal with real concrete federal and local legislation on how we deal with policing and police accountability. we're hearing the president supposed to make some kind of statement in the next day or so around this issue, which is belated at best, we are three weeks since the killing of george floyd and now the president is belatedly going to come out we're told and say something. it probably will not address the core issue, and that is how do we hold police accountable. it is the best thing for police and citizens. good police. police that work every day and risk their lives do not deserve to be in limbo like this because you have a president that won't stand up and say this is the wrong behavior and criminal behavior for police. this is proper policing and let's see if we can reconcile the two. without legislation there cannot be any reconciliation. >> in this case, reverend al, the fact he was shot in the back proves that he was on his -- fleeing, not confronting, at least physically at that moment. but also, and i know you're tapped into these cases and trying to help, the police chief resigning, i'm curious if you know anything about that. i remember seeing her in the beginning of all these protests, in the wake of the death of george floyd, walking through the throngs of protesters and listening to them and talking to them and really trying to establish calm and understand more. and in this case now she has abruptly resigned. do we know anything about what's behind that? >> what i'm hearing is because there's been some incidents. there was the police that really harassed two college students in their car under her watch, there were other incidents that led up to now the fatality in this case that she took the responsibility that the buck stops here and resigned. and i think that many people in atlanta that i've spoken to, although they felt she had made some effort, felt she was not able to change some of the culture that emboldened some of the police to continue to do things that clearly was against rules and probably against the law. >> rev, we have kasie hunt here, of course, and she interviewed mr. brooks' lawyer last night, the family of mr. brooks and she has a question. kasie? >> reverend, as you look at how we try to grapple with solving this problem, it seems this week on the hill, what the president might do, there have been negotiations with senator tim scott of south carolina. do you see a world where senate republicans and house democrats can find a way to do something that is meaningful enough to get support from people like you and other advocates? or do you think this is all just a dead end? >> the world that we can come together in is a world that we must desire. i remember when i was a kid, you had a world where people, because of the color of their skin, had to sit in the back of the bus. but somehow within a decade they were able to come together and come out with the civil rights act of 1964. that would not have happened if you didn't have republicans like dirkson, and i was a kid, i wasn't even 10 years old and i remember his name. you must have people on the republican said that says wait a minute, this may not be popular to how i grew up, but it is what is necessary for the nation to grow. where are the everett dirksons that can meet the hubert humphreys in the senate. i think the congressional black caucus addresses a house bill that addresses our concerns, the question is can it move in the senate and can we see some people grow to the moment we're facing like we saw in the '60s. what defined the '60s was the legislation, civil rights act, voting act, open housing act, and that's when the republicans and democrats showed real leadership. >> still ahead on "morning joe," a lot to get to. we'll dig into joe biden's support among women voters and how that seems to be impacting senate races as well. plus eyesore to icon, how the chain link fence surrounding lafayette square is now a living memorial to george floyd and to hope. we'll talk to mark lee bow vich of the "new york times." you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. and spray mopping. to lock away debris and absorb wet messes. all in one disposable pad. for a complete clean, vacuum, spray mop, and toss, in one click. the shark vacmop, a complete clean all in one pad. 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according to a "new york times" analysis of recent polls from may and june, biden is leading by 25 points among female registered voters, a significant increase from his 19 point advantage earlier this year. and hillary clinton's 14 point lead in the final pre-leelectio polls since 2016. gallup said it's the largest since lyndon, 24 points, in 1964. we're seeing the women gap play out in the iowa senate race. there incumbent senator joni ernst is in a dead heat against her opponent democrat theresa greenfield. only three points separate greenfield with 46% and ernst who has 43% in the most recent poll. the race is tied with both sitting in the polls in a three point margin of error. greenfield leads in voters without a religious affiliation, 52 points. white women out a degree. 31 points. and women voters in the state by 20 points, 54% on ernst 34%. it's amazing. >> bob costa the most shocking number there and the number the republicans should be concerned about as a canary in coal mine for all of these races the races are national, voters don't split their tickets between senators and governors and members of congress as they used to. the number is white women out college degrees. donald trump easily won that group, that demographic before. now joe biden leads white women without college degrees by 31%. >> joe, i was in iowa with senator ernst a few months ago. she was there with vice president pence, and it was clear that she has enbraced the trump white house as an ally. and she has continued to be an ally for president trump and vice president pence shelves she's in a corner politically. doesn't want to break from her necessarily. they say they're trying to find a way, i wrote about this in the postlast week, trying to find a way to navigate the choppy ways. one way to do it is having her attack the environmental protection agency, she wishes the trump administration would do more. picking a bit of a spot politically, picking that shot at the epa but never taking a shot ever at president trump, his conduct, his ethics, his political positioning because she feels she needs the trump voters in iowa to come out. this is her first re-election, she was elected in 2014, she will be an example of the nationalization of the republican politics in the trump era. >> you know, kasie, i had said it was donald trump who was losing with white women without college degrees by 31%, it's actually joni ernst which is more shocking. but donald trump has been losing ground with white women without college degrees for quite some time. just that trend among republicans is a real problem. especially in joni ernst you had somebody -- we ran her ad six years ago, laughing talking about how great the ads were because she was talking about pigs, she was going to take on the squealing pigs in washington d.c., she's going to be tough and independent minded and then you fast forward and she has -- you know, you see her in a town hall meeting where she can't even criticize donald trump for just the most unpresidential actions ever. and it's embarrassing watching her up there. and it's embarrassing to see how much she's kowtowed to donald trump, especially when you contrast that with the fierce independence she promised, never mind the fact she was cutting pork and the federal deficit and the federal debt has exploded every year since she's been up there. >> joe, it's -- she's been tweeting thank you videos to president trump. and the reality is that what has unfolded in the last five or six months is -- i mean, i -- i -- i'm almost afraid to say this because 2020 has thrown so many curve balls our way,, but it's hard to imagine how things could be worse for republicans who basically made this bed with donald trump, they said anyone who goes against him is essentially getting decapitated politically we don't want to risk it, we're going to embrace him as tightly as we can. and then coronavirus happened and now people are in the streets and frankly, the president's divisive rhetoric is aggressively turning people against him. you're looking at -- there's a poll out of arkansas over the weekend. just one poll, we don't want to make too big of a deal out of it, but it shows the president's disapproval and tom cotton's disapproval moving by 10 or 20 points in some cases. if you're joni ernst, how do you make the decision to throw all of that aside suddenly? the loyalty that this president demands as well from these candidates puts them in an unbelievably difficult position. if you go out against the president you know he's going to tweet, activate his base against you, you get all kinds of angry emails from the trump supporters that back you. contrast that with how nancy pelosi handled this in 2018 when she wanted to win back the house. what did she say to people running in tough districts, swing areas who were concerned about tying themselves to close to her. you do what you got to do, you win, that's all that matters to me. this president is not looking at this this way. even if he does win re-election over joe biden, if he loses his majority in the senate, i think they're going to go the same way -- if they're going to lose the senate, they're likely going to lose the white house as well, but what a disaster for him. it's yet another example of him and his personality getting in the way of what would be traditional political goals. that's a huge problem for senate republicans. >> it is a huge problem. they're frozen in place because they're afraid of a mean tweet. and while they're frozen in place, their political careers are going up in flames and they're never going to recover from a loss in 2020 and then a loss where they embraced a man who could be facing a dramatic landslide loss. you add on top of the problem, reverend al of white women without college degrees, which they were supposed to be a loyal demographic for donald trump, you look at what's unfolding every day on television and the white house has been bragging for two years that they were going to get 15%, 20% of the black vote, and you see that evaporate overnight. and suddenly, the trump operation is getting squeezed right now at least, right now, from all sides. suburban women, college educated women, women with advanced degrees. women without college degrees. black voters of all democr demographics. and suddenly the attempt to thread that needle politically to get to 270 is getting smaller and smaller. the needle is getting smaller and smaller. >> i think donald trump has to learn to -- basic fact of politics is that at the end of the day, you cannot just feed people demagoguery and not serve what they need. if you are a white woman without a college degree or if you are more educated and you've lived now in the midst of a pandemic that it has been clearly established that if he had done what he was warned of in january, we may not have suffered what we suffered. you have the economic repercussions of that, that you got to live with, then if you're black and you see the problem of racial injustice in the criminal justice system, he can't rise to that occasion and, in fact, tries to use a church and a bible as a prop after he moves nonviolent, peaceful protesters away with rubber bullets and tear gas. on all sides he has not served the interest. and people can be entertained but so long before they say, wait a minute, i need some basic service. i learned growing up in the movement, service is power. entertainment is a good show but good shows do come to an end. coming up, with protests continuing across the country in the wake of george floyd's death, a growing number of cities are making changes. we'll look at the new policies coast-to-coast. plus joe biden's search for a running mate is looking at a new round of vetting. a look at who's on the vp short list. "morning joe" will be right back. usaa was made for right now. and right now, is a time for action. so, for a second time we're giving members a credit on their auto insurance. because it's the right thing to do. we're also giving payment relief options to eligible members so they can take care of things like groceries before they worry about their insurance or credit card bills. right now is the time to take care of what matters most. like we've done together, so many times before. discover all the ways we're helping members at usaa.com/coronavirus discover all the ways we're helping members some people say that's ridiculous. age is just an illusion. how you show up for the world, that's what's real. what's your idea? i put it out there with a godaddy website. with us now let's bring in professor at princeton, eddie glaude jr. and reporter for the "new york times" mark leibovich. where he writes, it was unclear how long the artifacts would remain there where they end up. but a new consensus appeared to be at hand among the protesters, these flags and me moan toes were part of history. they should be preserved and cared for as artifacts in a part of history. tell us what happened along the fence? >> the fence is sort of surrounding the white house. it was there temporarily, went down last week, the fence was removed last week, but think the lafayette area has become a hallowed ground of the protest movement. an area especially around that incident in which the protesters were forcibly removed when the president had his photo op where people will come -- i was back there last night and it's obviously not an inat the present time protest site but you have tourists coming in or protesters coming in who want to see the place and see what it looks like. it's not what it was a week and a half ago, but you've had a lot of people from the smithsonian looking around at the artifacts, some of the signs around other places of the park and trying to preserve it for various smithsonian museums going forward. they're saying this is part of our history, it will be going forward and this is a moment worth remembering and also preserving. >> it seems, again, eddie, whatever donald trump has tried to do during crisis and the coronavirus it has seemed to politically backfire on him and the powerful scymbals have come out of these weeks, these months. but also we go back to lafayette park, june the 1st. lafayette park it seems to me will be remembered as the defining moment not just in the 2020 campaign but perhaps of the trump presidency. i commented to a friend this weekend that we're going to be looking back on june 1st for a long time. they're going to teach about june 1st at west point for a long time about what is done and not done. and even donald trump's relationship with the military has been severely frayed over this. >> you know, joe, i think that's right to a certain extent. what lafayette art represented for me at least was the collision of trump's authoritarian tendency with the robust tradition of freedom in the country and e with saw it clearly in the public art. as i watched the fence erect, come up, and i saw people react to it and i saw the art on the fence, it reminded me of how the berlin wall became a symbol of oppression and what was spray painted on the wall. when the wall came down, what we saw. we saw an expression of freedom over an expression of authoritarian, unfreedom. here in this moment, i think you're right, it's going to be a representation of this collision of a moment where the very norms and preaccepts that have defined our country were challenged and ordinary people responded in kind. it's going to be a really important moment in history, i believe. >> i think ordinary people responded, the military establishment responded. the national guard responded. it is, you're right in lafayette park, there was a collision of donald trump's most autocratic impulses, collision course with democratic norms and we have seen, at least in many instances, the people's voices and military institutions actually stood up and supported constitutional norms over donald trump's autocratic tendencies. jonathan lemire you have reporting this morning about joe biden's vice presidential selection, the names he's looking at right now. and those names have certainly been influenced by -- those candidates have certainly been influenced by the events of the past month. tell us about it. >> there's no question about that, joe. my colleagues at the a.p. and other outlets have had a series of stories in the last few days of the topic. the process is accelerating. they've had -- the biden team has conducted a number of interviews, looking to personal disclosures, some of the names we expected. senator kamala harris is near the top of the list, senator elizabeth warren remains there as well. a few surprises, tammy baldwin is in the mix, val demings we know. the events of the last few weeks is shaping how the biden team is looking at this. we know the former vice president has pledged to pick a female vice president, there's people around him, democrats, congressman clyburn, who said in this moment, the protests and those in minnesota have hurt the chances of senator klobuchar but others it may be helping them, val demings in particular, susan rice, former obama administration official is another one who has gained momentum in this stretch. it can't be overstated how important this pick is. i think traditionally the selection of vice president tend to be overrated, perhaps those of us in the media care more than the voters who are going to go to the ballot box who tend to make their choice on the name of the top rather than the bottom of the ticket. but in this one, joe biden were he to win, being the oldest president to be elected, there are health issues -- there's conversations about both candidates, biden and trump. there's a sense here on needing to solidify this pick, not just for electoral purposes not to just gain a state on the map but to assure. this vice president is going to be seen as one heartbeat away from the top job and the joe biden team knows that. their timetable probably to make the selection in early august, a few days or weeks before the democratic convention. kasie, get us updated with your reporting. >> i think there is definitely pressure on the former vice president to select a person, a woman of color, considering what we've seen unfold in the streets in the last several weeks, but i will also say i think the person to listen to on that question is jim clyburn, who has the ear of the former vice president and who really guided them through the crucible moment nay had in south carolina. and he said that it's not a must that joe biden do that. i think that's part of why you're continuing to see names like tammy baldwin pop up in this kind of search. and i think the underlying question that jonathan lemire pointed to is a key one. and, you know, one previous example and the point about vice presidential picks maybe mattering maybe not is entirely fair. but the entire team is looking at what happened to john mccain in 2008 when he selected sarah palin. another election there were health questions raised, there's a feeling he picked somebody that a lot of potentially independent voters weren't willing to trust with the presidency. and given the landscape we're looking at here, it's also, i think, an important consideration to think about selecting somebody that doesn't necessarily turn off independent voters, suburban women, the white women you mentioned without college degrees that seem to be breaking this way. so that's kind of the way in which they're grappling with this question right now. >> so mark leibovich, you've had reverend al sharpton, who was with us and is going to be with us again, you have reverend al, you also had jim clyburn, probably the most powerful black voice on capitol hill both saying that joe biden's pick did not have to be a black woman, but at the same time the events of the past several weeks certainly put far bigger focus on people like val demings and katherine -- and -- and senator harris, kamala harris, as well as people like susan rice. >> yeah, i think what happens in a case like this is, people might overrate the power of the moment itself. now obviously events are going to dictate partly how the vice president and his team are going to be thinking about this. but ultimately when he makes his pick, that pick will be the pick. and whoever that is will sort of create their own context, reality. and the people will -- the pick will rise and fall on her merits. going forward that will take on a life of its own and that will define the pick more so than any moment in the news. right now this is an urgent issue in the country and something a lot of people are pointing to. >> you know, bob costa, kasie brought up senator palin in 2008. i'm sure joe biden's campaign team is going to make sure that whoever they pick is somebody who has been tested, who knows international issues, as well as local issues. who understands foreign policies as much as they understand policing. i'm sure they don't want to be blind-sided again by a pick that might momentarily excite the base but cause problems in the long-run of the campaign. >> in susan rice, ambassador rice, you would find someone who had that significant experience on foreign policy, the gravitas in the eyes of many democrats. and you see senator harris, who has the vetting of a national campaign. she has had reporters like myself and others look at her record. she's been on the campaign trail. you can't undersell the power of experience in a national campaign to deal with the scrutiny of the mead ya and voters. one final note, senator baldwin of wisconsin, i've been covering her for a decade, this is someone who's deeply connected. i've been with her in madison to cover her, the protest politics of madison, wisconsin on racial injustice, gay rights. she's someone if you're looking to connect with the moment, even though she is a white woman, she has a history of protest movements in her politics. it's interesting to see her name rise for that reason. >> i think the two names i've been thinking about for some time, tammy baldwin and greaten whitmer as well along with the other women we brought up. tammy baldwin because she knows wisconsin very well. and will be a very good contrast. and you'll have two midwesterners and joe biden with his pennsylvania background and tammy background with her background in wisconsin. also gretchen whitmer who came to the forefront of the national scene during the coronavirus crisis, her approval ratings extremely well, much better than donald trump's. that could help lock down a state like michigan. >> i can think of so many great choices, which is a great position to be in and great for women. bob costa and mark leibovich, thank you. still ahead, a look at emerging coronavirus hot spots in the u.s. as fears that a second wave is becoming reality for many parts of the country. we'll go to von hillyard from seattle for reports on what's going on in that city. 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spoke to our health experts at some length last evening. they're saying there is no second spike. let me repeat that, there is no second spike. there is no emergency. there's no second wave. >> what? what? wait? >> dr. kudlow. >> have another. okay. my god, what's going on? >> dr. kudlow, the man who told us in that first clip back in, i think it was -- was it march, february? >> it was contained. february 25th. >> that coronavirus was contained, that was nearly a month before the nationwide shutdown. and, of course, kellyanne conway got angry at a cbs reporter for suggesting that the coronavirus had not been contained, 114,000 deaths later, 114,000 deaths after larry kudlow said, coronavirus was contained, he was speaking again on friday saying there are no spikes. that, as health officials warn that the coronavirus cases are actually climbing in 22 states. now part of that, let us hope, is because testing has increased. but hospitalizations are increasing in many states and concerns of health care officials are rising in many, many states. >> welcome back to "morning joe." it is monday, june 15th, still with us we have white house reporter for the associated press, jonathan lemire. kasie hunt is still with us. and professor, eddie glaude jr. joining the conversation is mike barnicle. and cochair of color of change, heather mcgee joins us this hour. great to have you it. >> jonathan lemire, it appears for larry kudlow and some people at the white house the defining narrative is still, nothing to see here, move along. move along. >> yeah, i was going to go with the frank drebin from "naked gun, standing there nothing to see there. you're seeing the singular focus from the white house trying to zero in on the economy. we saw the jobs report better than expected. we saw the victory laps, perhaps premature victory lap. that's been the messaging, the economy is reopening and picking back up. the president saying i built this economy the first time, we can set aside a lot of that he inherited from president obama. they seem to be ignoring the growing surge in coronavirus cases across this country in places that perhaps weren't hit as hard a few months ago. we're seeing major reductions in the new york city area, that's great that was the hot spot the last time. but we're seeing the sun belt, places like south carolina, florida, georgia has started to pick up. certainly arizona, texas. the city of houston in particular has signalled they're on the verge of an emergency in terms of infections there and hospital space. seeing the same issue in a arizona. seeing health officials in oklahoma telling president trump not to come this weekend for his rally. they'd be honored to have the president arrive in oklahoma but not right now. the white house there's no national message right now. the coronavirus task force has not had a briefing in weeks publically. they're meeting privately once or twice a week now whereas before it was daily. it's too early to see if we'll see a rise in cases due to the protests we've seen the last couple weeks. the rise right now appears to be from the reopening. that's a message the white house doesn't seem to want to touch. >> jonathan, briefly. has the white house considered possibly doing an outdoor rally? there seems to be -- >> there's got to be a way to do it. >> -- we have been concerned about the rallies in the streets -- >> the protests. >> -- the protests in the streets and the health care consequences of the protests but they're out in the streets, outside -- >> some are socially distant. >> some are social distancing and a lot of people are wearing masks. has there been any thought of doing what he did in mobile, alabama in his 2016 campaign and holding an event outdoors. >> we did a lot of reporting on the back story of the rally. to be clear, campaign officials knew that it was juneteenth when they selected that date. they expected some blow back, they were caught off guard by the intensity of it. the president bowed to pressure and moved it from the 19th to the 20th, saturday. in terms of venn kneue, no, not. it's an indoor arena, downtown, an arena that cancelled all of its events in june and july because of the pandemic. yet they're reopening for this one night for the rally. the campaign said they'll work with state health officials in terms of what sort of guidelines to implement. we don't know if there's going to be social distancing, if there will be masks. the early sense is those things will not be required. people attending did have to sign a waiver to say they would not sue the campaign were they to get sick. there are outdoor venues in tulsa that could handle this, there's a new one that just opened up, it's a possibility. but as of now they have not. the president wants to have as big a rally indoors as possible. >> let's hope, mika, they do move it to an outdoor rally. that people that come to that rally will take care of themselves, socially distance if they can, wear masks, do what the trump white house has told them to do and not what the president himself has done. >> that's going to be interesting. >> for their own safety, for their health, for the health of their parents and grandparents, the health of their children, let us just hope and pray they take care of 24e7themselves. just like people protesting in the street. they have to take care of themselves, they have to be careful and they got to take care of their parents and grandparents when they go home. >> eddie glaude, they did change the date in response to concerns about the initial date. does that mean anything to you? does that show that the white house is at least responding to the concern of african-americans about the date they had chose erie, pa? -- chosen? >> i rarely extend anything to the white house and i take yellow lig jonathan lemire seriously they were trying to double down on white resentment and fear. it's still the backdrop of tulsa, and that's one of the sites of one of the most violent racial histories of the country and so i think he's still engaged in what he intended to engage in, the culture war thing. what we heard from kudlow we need to understand is deadly disinformation. joe, you kept emphasizing we have 114,000 dead over 2 million who have contracted the virus. it's spreading in the south. it's spreading in in the west. it's spreading in regions where the public health infrastructure isn't as strong. we know we're in for something here. and remember, dr. fauci, said this is in some ways his worst nightmare. so to hear kudlow say that over and against what we heard from dr. fauci, this is the height of irresponsibility it seems to me. >> if if you compare what dr. fauci said back in february when larry kudlow said it was contained and dr. fauci said it was not. again, 114,000 deaths later and over 2 million cases later, dr. fauci was dead right and larry kudlow dead wrong. here we are with dr. fauci and others saying that the concern, his biggest fear of his lifetime, and he fears we're at the beginning of the process. we've heard it from dr dr. osterholm too who said we're in the second inning of a nine inning game. people need to be extraordinarily careful and larry kudlow's words as they were in february, remain reckless. we are reopening the economy so there's no need to lie to the american people about the health care crisis. the economy is being reopened. in many places it's being reopened carefully but it is being opened. so there's no need to continue the lies to the american people about their health. >> it was just last week that dr. fauci who has been right every step of the way said we are in the very beginning of this. so it is at this point up to us to be honest with the american people up to the government to be consistent -- yes? >> just to jump in here, i left this sitting next to me, this is the front page from the "new york times" that talked about 100,000 people dead. this is just 1,000 of them. we're looking at another newspaper like this with this headline, twice as many people dieing from this. that's the ramifications of this, if you look at the way these numbers are going up, it's potentially 200,000 deaths that's the worst case scenario they laid out when we were all shocked when the white house came out and said that. each of these is a family that can't grieve with their loved ones because they can't go to the hospital to say good-bye. this is an incredibly lonely devastating thing for people and i think when you listen to larry kudlow say this doesn't exist, you're setting aside the grief and anguish of so many americans. we've been justifiably covering the george floyd story, that's been important but we can't forget about these americans suffering. >> that number could double some models show by this fall, by just a few months from now. we will return to the story but we turn to atlanta and another police involved shooting of an unarmed black man. according to the georgia bureau of investigation rayshard brooks was shot outside a wendy's restaurant after two police officers responded to a report of a man sleeping in the vehicle in a drive-thru. we want to warn you the video is disturbing. authorities say brooks failed a sobriety test and this police body camera footage, shows the struggle that ensues as they try to arrest him. eyewitness video shows both officers on the ground struggling to detain brooks. according to investigators he was able to grab one of the officers' taser and running away. video shows him turning back with the taser appearing to fire it. the officer returned gun fire. the officer who discharged his gun has been fired. the second officer has been placed on administrative duty. and atlanta's police chief, erika shields, resigned yesterday. according to an autopsy the fatal police shooting has been ruled a homicide. the medical examiner said brooks suffered two gun shot wounds to the back. the lawyer representing the family of rayshard brooks told msnbc last night that the officers had other options. >> they didn't have to take this man or attempt to take him into custody because he was sleeping in his car. he was trying to do the right thing, he didn't want to drive drunk. he was stopped, not a threat to anyone. they could have taken his keys, said, hey, what's your wife's number, call her, they could have done any number of things. because you tussle with an officer it shouldn't be a death sten sentence for anyone. >> we've been talking about so many things during this debate on the killing of george floyd, "new york times" this morning is talking about the tremendous leeway that police officers have been given in this country. let me read the second paragraph from this article. says, although laws vary by state police officers in america are generallily allowed to use deadly force when they believe their lives or lives of others are in danger. a legal authority giving enormous leeway to make split second life or death decisions without hesitation or fear of prosecution. but then the times goes on to say the rising anger over the past several weeks may completely alter the laws. the laws involving the use of force by police officers, especially in situations like the one we saw in atlanta. >> we should hope so. and i think the country is for once pretty united that we need an entirely different vision of how we keep our families and our communities safe. you know, there are millions of americans who have had something close to what mr. brooks experienced, which is consuming too much alcohol, it seems according to most reports, and pulling over their car and saying you know what, i'm not going to drive right now. and at the beginning of the 30-minute interaction, which was friendly, where mr. brooks talked about visiting his mother and talked about planning his daughter's birthday party, he said i live a couple blocks away let me go home and sleep this off. and for some reason he was then -- the police officers decided to put him in handcuffs. i'm not saying that he should have resisted arrest or gotten upset at that moment and gotten fearful which is obviously what happened as he became terrified. but also we have to know right now that going to jail right now could be a death sentence for people. ja jails are a major hot spot for the coronavirus and one thing we have to recognize is that this is a pandemic of racial violence within a pandemic of the coronavirus. george floyd had had covid-19 before he was murdered. so we have to recognize that the kind fear that stalks african-americans as they interact with the police is the clear and present danger. and that has happened because of the way police treat us. we absolutely could have had a different outcome. i think we see mayor lance bottoms having taken a hard line. we're starting to see because of the multiracial protests in every part of this country, a different level of accountability coming out of th this incident than we have others. we have seen the police chiefs the officers -- it's time the qualified immunity, which is the broad leeway for the use of force to stop, time for it to end, and we need to see the republican party and the senate to pass a bill to end qualified immunity for the police. >> mike barnicle, i think you and i have on this show said time and again that it is hard to second guess law enforcement officers, it's hard to second guess police officers when they are in the middle of a conflict. it's hard to put yourself there. but in this case, where they had been talking for 30 minutes to a man they believed who was inebriated, and then, as he was running away, despite the fact they knew who he was, they had the information on him, shooting him in the back twice, it reminded me of what happened in april of 2015 in north charleston where walter scott was shot in the back by the police officer as he was slowly running away and posing no threat, absolutely no threat to police officers. >> what happened in atlanta, absolutely stunning. you can train people for a host of issues. >> his sound is not working. >> mike, we got to work on your sound. mike we'll get back to you. >> eddy glaude, same to you. oftentimes we have said it's hard to second guess police officers in many situations where a violent outbreak occurs, where the life of the police officers may be at stake, where they may be thinking i may not return home to my family this evening, i may never see my children again. that's one thing. in this case, just like walter scott, the coast guard veteran in north charleston who was slowly running away from a police officer, posing no threat whatsoever, to get shot in the back, gunned down in the back, it's just a -- there is no justification for that. and i'm just beyond stunned that these police officers would act this way any time, but especially in the middle of a national reconning on the use of police force. when he posed no imminent threat or danger to them. >> before the officer returned to declare that brooks was i neeb rated and that he was going to put him in handcuffs there was an exchange between the two officers, and what did brooks say to officer bronson, i know you're just trying to do your job and bronson said to him, we were worried about you because you were asleep in your car, there was a humane exchange before the two before they decided to put the cuffs on him. you think about the judgment, joe, because in some ways, bronson and rolf couldn't handle brooks, he got away. did you see the line of cars in the drive-thru? he discharged his weapon with all of those people around. right. as the guy was running away. in some ways we'll have to see how the investigation proceeds. this looks like male egg o, bros got the best of him and he executed him in this way. think about this, you have this humane exchange, the row of cars trying to get their food, and the officer discharges his weapon for a guy who's running away, with no weapon, not posing any imminent danger. it's unconscionable joe in every way imaginable. >> you know, eddie, i'm sure you would understand. say they were going from room to room in a house, chasing from somebody from room to room in a house and it's dark, and you turned around a corner and a guy is olympianing something at you, maybe it's a cell phone, maybe it's a taser, maybe you don't know what it is and you shoot that person while in pursuit because you fear they may have a gun, that's what the "new york times" this morning called lawful but awful. but this was in an open parking lot, they saw the risk. they could have turned around and run to their cars. this guy was going to tire and run out of steam. but shooting him in the back -- this is what i said about minneapolis. this is not just one bad apple. this is a culture, a culture from top-to-bottom that has to change. when the chairman of the joint chiefs was forced to apologize to everybody up and down the ranks for participating on june the 1st, when he to write a memo, basically saying i made a terrible mistake, that went to the culture of the military in a positive way. this goes to the culture, at least of this police department, and too many police departments across america. and you should know, if you shoot a man who is lumbering away from you and is posing no immediate threat to you or anybody else, you're going to jail if you gun them down in an atlanta wendy's parking lot or in a north charleston, vacant lot. >> you know, joe, that seems reasonable and logical. then you hear senator tim scott saying qualified immunity should not be on the table. it's a toxic pill in the bill. there's a sense in which we want to hold police accountable. they are the only ones, at least in my view, who have the authority to use legal lethal force, and it seems to me that they should be held to an account for the use of that lethal force, joe. this is unconscious in every way. the guy said i could just walk home, the officer had been trained, had experienced nine hours of deescalation, 20 plus minutes of reasonable conversation ended in the unnecessary execution of brooks. it makes no sense, joe. it makes no sense at all. >> although it might just make sense. >> yeah, it might just make sense. mike, if a white teenager had done that, you know what the cops could do, they would shake their heads, get in the car and follow the kid and roll down the window and say, kid, you better stop running right now or things are going to get worse for you. stop running, kid, stop running. if he didn't they would keep following him in the car until they tackled him to the ground and slapped the cuffs on him. >> police in every state and city are allowed to say the three magic words that no one else is allowed to say and have impact, you're under arrest. this video shows an incredible lack of common sense among those two police officers. it also shows that the victim, mr. brooks was cooperating with the police. he decides to run away. what is going on when a cop in a crowded area, as eddie just eluded to, a line of people waiting for their pick up food takes out his gun in pursuit of someone they know is unarmed. sure they know he has a taser. they also know he's drunk. it is mind boggling. what happened in minneapolis which garnered world attention, global attention, i think, and i truly believe, because the first time you saw a public execution, a public execution, eight minutes and 46 seconds of police officers executing a human being and in atlanta, you saw a stunning display you can train for everything at a police academy, you cannot provide common sense to someone who lacks it. this was an astounding case of a lack of common sense resulting in murder two charges for that police officer. >> all right. demonstrators continue to gather over the weekend at seattle's so called capitol hill occupied protest. to protest the killing of george floyd as well as police brutality. the six block area formerly known as an autonomous zone was created last monday night after demonstrators moved into an area around an abandoned police precinct. since then thousands gathered around the capitol hill neighborhood. let's bring in at the site of the occupied protest, msnbc correspondent von hillyard. is it peaceful, how is it going? >> this marks a week these streets have been occupied by thousands of folks from across seattle. it's important to note as you did, mika, it was the police, the city who chose to abandon this area a week ago today, what you saw was thousands of folks the most diverse six blocks in america descended on this area. you saw folks frustrated and angry, trying to find a place to funnel that energy. what you saw her, you know, there was one gentleman, a 52-year-olds black man named chris, a father, he brought his daughter here. he came up to me outside that abandoned precinct he told me look at the scar. i got that 32 years ago from a young man from a police officer from that very precinct. he said he wanted to bring his daughter here to see this and know that she was surrounded by a community that cared and wanted change. this is a defuse organization here. it was not a hostile takeover of the streets. i was talking to an organizer and she was telling me there was a large presence of white and brown folk to support the black lives here. she told me she thought it was because over the course of a week of protests you saw the seattle police department use flashbang grenades, tear gas and for the first time she said she felt like the white folks in the community saw up front what black folks here in the seattle streets have gone through for years. there's push back to the suggestions that this was a party-like atmosphere. in large part the organization developed this saturday and sunday there's programming, indigenous groups here, latin groups here. this was an event to funnel this to actionable change. the question is to what extent will the mayor and police chief meet the demands. >> let me ask you about the white house and the president's characterization of what's going on there. there's been the suggestion that there's anarchy that the police have given up the streets, that people are -- people's lives are endangered. first of all, has there been any violence in that area since its been declared an autonomous zone, first thing, secondly, are there any thoughts by the seattle police to go in and retake that area or are they waiting and hoping that these protests will diffuse themselves? >> reporter: so the seattle police chief made clear here this weekend she has every intention of moving her police officers back into that east precinct, saying the response times have tripled in this area. at the same time when you talk to the folks here, we're here in the 4:00 a.m. hour and this has been the most peaceful week these streets have seen in a long time. there's been no issues of violence here. this is an effort folks say look we are a community of people. you've seen children running around, older folks running around. this is a community that says this is not anarchy, violence. folks are living in tents as we speak. this is a community created hooefr the week. they said it's a different look than the clashes that took place in the week prior with the police department. >> von hillyard, thank you very much. heather mcghee what are you looking for in the weeks and months to come that can be consequential and realistic change. >> thank you for that question, because we would not be seeing what we've seen across the country, which is dozens of police accountability reforms being passed at the state and local level without the kinds of bold multiracial protests that we just saw in seattle and that truly have been in every corner of the country from tuscaloosa to salt lake city. we have seen people demanding an entirely different vision. i think all eyes are going to be on congress. all eyes are going to be on the u.s. senate. and the only black republican in the senate, one of the few black members in the senate, to say that the biggest issue, and i want to reiterate against this, reiterate this, which is qualified immunity, which is something that has seen a level of bipartisan support for ending. you have the players coalition, a former professional sports players and coaches advocating to end qualified immunity. end the idea that we give people a gun and let them loose on america's streets with no accountability. that's what we want to see. that will be the test of whether or not congress and the republican party is serious about this or whether they're still really trump's party trying to just protect the racial status quo. co-chair of color of change, heather mcghee thank you very much for being on this morning. still ahead on the fight for racial justice a republican close to the white house says the president will soon find out he did you waoesn't have room t off entire sets of voters. we'll discuss the divide of the republican party. and whether it's the second wave of the coronavirus or part of the first wave, there have been a smiek pike in cases. you're watching "morning joe" we'll be right back. types of chronic hep c. whatever your type, epclusa could be your kind of cure. i just found out about mine. i knew for years. epclusa has a 98% overall cure rate. i had no symptoms of hepatitis c mine caused liver damage. epclusa is only one pill, once a day, taken with or without food for 12 weeks. before starting epclusa, your doctor will test if you have had hepatitis b, which may flare up, and could cause serious liver problems during and after treatment. tell your doctor if you have had hepatitis b, other liver or kidney problems, hiv, or other medical conditions... ...and all medicines you take, including herbal supplements. taking amiodarone with epclusa may cause a serious slowing of your heart rate. common side 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today. - communities of color have always been underrepresented in the u.s. census. that means less federal funding for schools, hospitals, libraries, and other public services for diverse communities and less representation in congress. this year, it's critical that you participate in the 2020 census. it's safe and confidential. let's make sure everyone is counted in our community. for more information, visit getcounted.com, and to participate, go to census.gov. joining us now former white house adviser for health policy, professor and vice provost at the university of pennsylvania, dr. ezekiel manual. he's an msnbc medical contributor and cohost of the podcast making the call. also the author of the new book entitled "which country has the best health care," which is out this week. "which country has the world's best health care," excuse me. i want to start with the coronavirus, where do we stand? we have the president's economic adviser saying it's done, it's contained, okay. the president wants to have a rally. there are protests in the streets causing some health officials concerns, where are we? what phase are we in? and what are we looking at? >> if you look at some states, new york, illinois, pennsylvania, you have a nice decline in the current number of cases. on the other hand, way more states, about 21, have an increase in the number of cases and some of them are pretty dramatic. if you look at florida, for example, there's a pretty dramatic increase and it cadill clocks almost precisely to four weeks after they opened up. you're seeing it not just in florida but in texas, arizona and many other states. i think in some ways, like many of us warned, we're right pack in march. we're right back at the start when we were getting into the exponential growth phase. the problem now is we're in the exponential growth phase and places are opening up rather than having physical distancing, wearing masks and other public health measures coming into force and that's a worrisome combination that we're ignoring the public health measures, ignoring wearing masks in public and going about our business and getting very close to each other, where we know enclosed spaces like you're showing where we know the virus transmits relatively easily. >> jonathan lemire? >> dr. emmanuel, we've spent a lot of time this morning talking about the president's upcoming rally in tulsa, oklahoma, a state which has seen a rise in infections in recent weeks. can you walk us through a specific and if needed scary detail as possible, what dangers those who attend that rally may face? it's an indoor arena with circulating air, it's not believed at this moment requirements for masks and social distancing? how risky is it for rally goers and potentially the president of the united states to be in the arena on saturday night? >> we learn there are four things that enhance the transmission of the virus. number one, large crowds. number two, enclosed spaces. number three, prolonged period of time. number four, shouting, yelling, singing, coughing, sneezing. let me say you have all four going in tulsa, oklahoma. that's not a good combination to reduce the spread. and especially if you don't require people to physically distance, which you can't in an arena, you're going to have congestion at the entrance, c congestion at the bathrooms, and c con sen shon stands. i sure his public health advisers are telling him not to do it and he's ignoring him. >> the disclosure is disturbing. talk about what infections you think we may see from the protests across the united states over the past several weeks. obviously there's some areas where masks are being worn, but you're talking about thousands of people jammed into a small space. i remember a month before those protests we had 150 or so people crowd in to the state capitol in wisconsin and the consternation rose up just about everywhere. so why would we not be equally concerned or more concerned about hundreds of thousands of people going into the street, even if if it's a worthy cause, you know as well as i know, this virus does not care about politics and it does not care about social justice. it does not care about worthy causes. it spreads, it infects people, it kills people. >> absolutely. outdoor protests, they're better in the one factor that they're outdoors and not in an enclosed space like a room or a classroom or auditorium. but nonetheless they have the elements, crowds, prolonged times, yelling, shouting, singing. and that is a worrisome combination. joe and mika, the time to look is about four to six weeks after the events. that's where you begin to see the really increase in the number of cases and that's what i expect we're likely to see and then in tulsa, oklahoma, people will be not only congregating, they'll be then going back to their community be and taking the virus to various communities. these are, as you're implying, joe, perfectly script written for super spreading events. by the way, in the protests, it was come bounded was compounded by the use of tear gas in the streets that the police did. that was a bad tactic for a situation where we have a deadly virus. >> absolutely. lafayette square you had police shoving people into each other so they were literally having physical contact. it was beyond crazy on many levels. zeke, the book, i want to know the answer, which country has the world's best health care. >> you're like my students at wharton, always get the answer. part of the problem is we have to work. we judge countries on 22 different criteria, as i point out in the book, some people have different measures by what they think is important compared to other people. for some people it's choice of doctor. and by the way, the united states does not lead the world in choice of doctor. you have many places that have a much better choice of doctor, where there's no co-pay and you can go to any doctor. germany stands out at the top of that list. but lots of other countries also have much more free choice of doctor, for example, than the united states. for other people, especially people with relatives who are older, you know, long-term care is important. and, you know, there we look at germany and the netherlands. they have ways to finance long-term care that most other countries don't have, and haven't figured out. drug prices, every other country regulates drug prices. some of them do it much better than others. all of them try to link the price of a drug to how much health it improves. some countries have built-in mechanisms to lower the price of the drugs as competitors on the market. australia, france lead countries in that regard. so there's a wide variety of standards you might use to assess countries. >> we have to read the book is what he's saying, the new book is "which country has the world's best health care". dr. emmanuel, thank you for being on, congratulations on the book. >> thank you very much, mika. coming up our next guest says the republican party has reinvented itself several times over so what happens after 2020, author and historian craig sh l shirley joins us. we're back in two minutes. come on, no no n-n-n-no-no only discover has no annual fee on any card. with spray mopping to lock away debris and absorb wet messes, all in one disposable pad. just vacuum, spray mop, and toss. the shark vacmop, a complete clean all in one pad. hey allergy muddlers... achoo! ...do your sneezes turn heads? try zyrtec... ...it starts working hard at hour one... and works twice as hard when you take it again the next day. zyrtec muddle no more. as for what happens next, the struggle has already begun. even during the campaign there have been people in washington who have been feeling around for a nucleus of republicans who can take over the party leadership and be acceptable to conservatives and liberals. if goldwater wants to keep the reins he has to fight. we'll see if he has the stomach for that. >> what's happening to the republican party? >> let me tell you, doug, these results shock me, they stun me, they disappoint me and they sadden me. i'm not bitter about it. i recognize the system and the system works. but more than anything i think we have to examine where our party is going and the role it's going to play. >> how are you going to rebuild the party? >> we have to reflect and rebuild, we lost one senate seat, two governorships, gained four legislative chambers, we haven't had a legislative chamber in the south since reconstruction. good things happened to the republican party last night. we have to do some retooling. it's time for serious and quiet reflection, rest and we'll be back. >> here's michael steele who two years ago was talking about the fact that the r for republican was a scarlet letter. now he's saying we have to go in a new direction. a lot of people say this is a cynical attempt by the party to elevate an african-american at a time we have the first african-american president, steele will make the argument the party has to reach beyond the south, appeal to not just african-americans but also hispanic voters. the party has to expand to compete going forward. >> demographically this is a different country and republicans need to understand that. republicans at least at the national level want to win elections. and along this path they can't win national elections. there will be a debate on how you react to that but i think that assumption is going to be broadly shared in the party. >> some of the many times the republican party has had to reinvent itself particularly after presidential election losses. joining us craig shirley with more on this. what's this look like now? >> i know you were thinking the same thing i was in 1964 after goldwater's defeat, everybody was saying the republican party is dead, conservative party is dead, two years later the reagan revolution is born in california and republicans do well in the off-year elections. you can say the same thing about 2008, of course, after barack obama's victory. two years later an explosive growth in the republican party. but there has been a reinvention from the party of taft to goldwater the party. now to trump. what is -- i just want to say, first of all, do you agree with me, if donald trump loses, people think he's going to be like a ghost hovering around the republicans? no. when you lose in washington, d.c., or wiyou are gone. you are gone. the party that eviscerated me for criticizing george w. bush the second he left office, they took up the items on big spending and foreign policy. >> if donald trump loses in november, joe, the republican party's going to resemble "lord of the flies" and quickly descend into island savagery with different faxes formed trying to gain the upperhand and trying to come up with a coherent ideology. i love the run-up, and i saw my old friend rich in there. that was great to see. but the republican party is a faction of neocons and free traders and high tariffs, libertarian republicans and big government republicans. they always have been fighting with each other for better than 40 years. reagan was able to bring the whole party together because he reinvented the party, basically, and made it an appeal to personal freedom, dignity, privacy, all those things cherished in the constitution and declaration. the republican party does need to upgrade for the 20th century -- the 21st century. some of its messages are old and creepy. zoom mike barnicle is with us and has a question. mike. >> craig, why is it -- i've been looking for an answer to this question for months, if not years. why is it the elected members of the republican party in the house and the senate seemingly fail to recognize the damage that donald j. trump does to the country every day? not the party first, but the country every day. what's up with that? >> well, look --. >> okay, here we go with the sound again. must be something in the water. >> joe, i answer the question. >> yeah. you know, so, we lost craig's audio. the thing is, yes, it is very disturbing what's going on right now with republicans blindly following donald trump, but, yeah, i think back to 20 -- i think back to the bush administration. a guy i voted for two times. i was harshly critical of george bush's spending, the high def sit, the big debt. in the second term, people like peggy noonan and i very concerned about other things as far as his foreign policy goes. and i was just eviscerated. peggy noonan was eviscerated by fellow republicans who lined up quietly behind george w. bush. i had a preacher in pensacola, florida, a friend of mine who said he occasionally had to bring church members in and explain to them you did not have to support george w. bush politically to still love jesus christ. by the way, those were serious conversations because fights were breaking out inside the churches. there is -- i even remember some of trump's biggest supporters, jonathan lemire, attacking me viciously in -- i'm not making this about me. it's just what i saw firsthand. trump's biggest supporters attacking me in 2012 for suggesting mitt romney was running a poor campaign and was going to lose in 2012 against barack obama. and they support -- yes, donald trump has exaggerated this instinct, but they blindly support republicans and a lot of democrats blindly support the person who's in the white house. >> that's right, joe. it's so much now team red /team blue. that's fierce loyalty to whoever is chief executive unless things reach to a critical stage. like we saw at the end of the george w. bush administration. i want to see what happens if trump were to lose, what happens to the republican party then. there aren't many predictions we can make about donald trump. one we can is he's not going quietly. let's say it's january 21, 2021 and he's not president. he's not going to go away. he still will have a loud voice. he has tens of millions of twitter followers. how will he be to fox news, other conservative outlets. will people still listen to him? it's tradition for presidents to leave office go quiet. donald trump has never gone quiet. i don't think he will either. will he still hold some fans in his thrall, will they still listen to him, will he exit the stage, will he torment, not just perhaps if joe biden is president, but republicans looking to run in 2024. it will be fascinating to watch the potential divide and impact trump could have on the republican party even after he leaves office. >> craig shirley, we're going to try your shot one more time. do you agree with jonathan that trump will continue to be a force after he leaves office? >> the that remains to be seen, but i don't think he'll be quite the force a lot of people think he will. i think there will be people arguing for trumpism is the way forward, people arguing for reaganism, like you and me, people arguing for more libertarian and more federalist philosophy, but it will be many, many different things. i don't think donald trump will be the dominant force of the republican party if he loses in november that a lot of people think he will. >> craig shirley, thank you very much. he'll definitely try this again. his latest book is entitled "mary ball washington, the untold story of george washington's mother request the the ." it's great to have you on. more on the gop as group against donald trump release their latest ad. more on the troubled culture of policing as sn offican officer man in the back even as eyes are laser focused on this issue. facing leaks takes strength. so here's to the strong, who trust in our performance and comfortable, long-lasting protection. because your strength is supported by ours. depend. the 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medicine, abbvie may be able to help. with spray mopping to lock away debris and absorb wet messes, all in one disposable pad. just vacuum, spray mop, and toss. the shark vacmop, a complete clean all in one pad. hellbut you already itknew that.. and i've got some tips to help you get through these challenging times. first, practice physical distancing. i'm sorry, i did not see you there. i've been doing it my whole life. or there. plus, there are lots of things you can do at home. like, stay active with some sick dance moves. be daring. and whip up a new dish. i love the combination of gummy bears and meat. you can do video calls for all of your important meetings. what? sorry. or just have some fun. ok, not that much fun. now, this does not come naturally to me. but, try to be kind to each other. this is a tough time for everyone. so that's it. stay home. stay healthy. and remember, we're all in this together. what? but totally separate. you know what i mean. yaaaaay! trump supporters for a minute. what is donald trump's case about? he's a race-baiting, xenophobic, bigot. you know how you make america great again? tell donald trump to go to hell. if you can't admire joe biden as a person, you've got a problem. you need to do some self-evaluation because what's not to like? he is as good a man as god ever created. he does some of the most incredibleably heart-felt things that anybody could ever say to me. he's the nicest person i think i've ever met in politics. this is a defining moment in the future of the republican party. we have to reject this demagoguery. if we don't reject donald trump we've lost moral, in my view. >> new ad from the group republican voters against trump. the ad is set to run on fox news in charlotte, north carolina, washington, d.c., greenville, south carolina, that's lindsey graham's home state. morning and welcome to "morning joe." it's monday, june 15th. with us we have white house reporter for the associated press jonathan lemire, host of msnbc's "politics nation" reverend al sharpton, nbc news capitol hill reporter kasie hunt, and political reporter for t"the washington post" and nbc political analyst robert costa, the moderator of "washington week" on pbs. we have a lot to uncover. unrest in atlanta this morning after the fatal police-involved shooting of a black man in the parking lot of a wendy's restaurant. one officer has been fired. another on administrative duty. plus a spike in coronavirus cases in several states -- arizona, texas and florida are all reporting their highest confirmed number of cases yet and amid criticism, president trump moves the date of his tulsa rally from juneteenth to june 20th, quote, out of respect for the occasion. >> so, kasie hunt, you work capitol hill. you think many there may be a little bit of discomfort in the lindsey graham camp this morning? the ad really makes every argument that joe biden's campaign team would ever want to make, and they make it from one of donald trump's closest allies on capitol hill. >> yeah. in a very -- you can hear the sincerity in lindsey graham voice. and having covered him -- when i first started covering capitol hill, joe biden was still in the senate. as lindsey graham lays out there, he has always been one of the most well-liked and personally respected people in washington. and, you know, one of the things that i think the biden campaign has done well, and we obviously talked a lot throughout the primary about the very many doubts about how things were going and there was a lot of hang-wringing and hemming and hawing, but they have been running along with this message of basic decency. that is the message the campaign is putting to the forefront. we're going to return to normalcy and decency. that lines up with the person their candidate actually is. you can't ask for anything else than that if you're trying to get someone elected, if you're a campaign official trying to work on someone's behalf. you know, joe, lindsey graham's situation is interesting. i'm skeptical any democrat could win in south carolina in that senate race, but he tacked so close to president trump over the course of the last year because he was afraid of this primary. and people are really turning against the president here in the final months of this campaign. and he actually does have a credible democratic challenger in jamie harrison, a former aide to jim clyburn. we haven't heard lindsey graham talk about this necessarily but there has been some things he's said that have caught my eye in whether he's politically shifting here. it's a very interesting ad for a lot of reasons. >> bob costa, the trump campaign has spent so much money trying to vilify joe biden. going off of the script of 2016 where they knew they had an unpopular candidate who wasn't liked by a majority of the people, wasn't respected by even close to a majority of people. was seen as hon -- not honest and not trustworthy by overwhelming majority of americans, so they decided to destroy hillary clinton, who proved to be an easier target than joe biden right now. they understand they have to destroy joe biden. they understand it may not be as simple to destroy their opponent as it was four years ago. >> that's exactly right. the fight for the trump campaign isn't just against the biden campaign, it's against that group of never republicans, the lincoln project. what you see here with the lindsey graham ad is an attempt to soften president trump's support among traditional republican voters. you have a traditional republican, a conservative in lindsey graham. there's not an expectation that jamie harrison, the democrat in south carolina is somehow going to get a sudden lift. he's a strong candidate for the democrats in the south. still a tough race, still a tough state for the democrats. but the democrats look at the map and not just south carolina but states like georgia and texas and florida, and they think if some republicans can either stay home, maybe think about voting for joe biden, this entire map could change. they see the numbers changing in many of the polls. >> many of the polls. jonathan, this weekend, for the first time joni ernst fell behind for the first time. her approval rating dropping since the five years she's been there to her lowest numbers. and a democrat leading in iowa, private polls showing donald trump falling behind in iowa. you look at montana. you have governor bullock running his first ads. joni ernst having trouble in iowa, as we've said, of course. really bad news for republican senate candidates in arizona, in colorado, in maine, north carolina's going to be a real challenge for them. you just have an article out this morning about the problem these senate candidates are having running with donald trump. we're looking at joni ernst, too. promised to be this tough, conservative, independent voice going to washington, d.c. time and time again we've seen her embarrass herself by going to town hall meetings and not being able to tell the truth about donald trump's failures. >> joe, first of all, you'll see i got the memo about the tie to wear today. >> oh, very good. very good. >> look at you guys. >> we look great. the conversation dovetails perfectly with the story my colleague and i have out this very morning about this sort of dilemma that some republicans up for re-election are facing as to how closely should they em brars president donald trump just five months until they face voters again. we are seeing some republicans still wrap their arms around him tightly. senator tillis in north carolina, for one. others like suson collins in maine are creating more distance. president trump has boasted throughout his term, about the fierce loyalty from fellow republicans. he know he polls extraordinarily high among the republican rank and file but they're watching for little cracks in that. senator graham is one, now he's cleared his republican primary. that's key here. they want to watch republicans who don't have to face the base right now, don't have to face just primary voters, at least for a little while, if they're trying to create a little distance. i saw senator graham who spoke out against general millie. president trump has told advisers he wants a message sent to capitol hill demanding loyalty. he doesn't want to see any sort of breaks in the resolve republicans have had and staying with him, thinking that would send a sign of real weakness heading into the summer and fall re-election campaign. joe, you were right. there are warning signs across the map for republicans right now and for president trump, in particular. iowa you mentioned. senator ernst is down, in polling their tracking. the president is neck and neck there with vice president biden in a state he won comfortably. ohio, georgia, others. and, of course, the map of battlegrounds seem to be expand, including a place like arizona where there is a democratic senate candidate is who is way ahead in the polls. the president knows at this moment he's losing. if he loses arizona, that changes the entire map and that puts pressure on him to win in other states in the rust belt. let's get to the latest on the coronavirus. the death toll this morning is at nearly 117,000 americans. and the fear of a second wave is now a reality for many parts of the country. for weeks health experts warning that once states begin to reopen, a surge in cases will follow. so for thousands of americans have been sickened by the virus and new and alarming outbreaks. according to "the new york times," as of saturday, coronavirus cases were climbing in 22 states, particularly in the sun belt region and the west. over the weekend florida saw its largest single day count of cases since the pandemic began. the state of oregon paused its gradual reopen due to a spike in case case. hospitals in arizona have been urged to activate emergency plans to cope with a flood of coronavirus patients as the number of cases there have climbed by nearly 300% since may 1st and have roughly doubled since memorial day, according to cnbc. officials in texas also say hospitals are scrambling to accommodate a surge in cases with numbers swiftly rising around the largest cities, including houston, san antonio and dallas. meanwhile, the tulsa city/county health department director expressed concern about the increasing spread in the city and said he wishes president trump would postpone his campaign rally set for this weekend to a later date. it's supposed to take place there. according to the tulsa world, the doctor said the city is seeing, quote, a significant increase in case trends that makes a large gathering like the rally dangerous. not only for attendees but for the president himself. over the weekend state officials reported 225 new cases of covid-19. once again, marking a new high in daily increases for both the state and tulsa county. so far president trump's re-election campaign declined to comment to nbc news on what, if any, guidelines from the cdc they plan to enforce in tulsa after making supporters, who signed up to attend the rally, i agree not to hold the campaign liable if they contract the coronavirus. >> bob costa, you've had the president complaining, watching images of people marching in the streets saying if they can do that, why can't i start holding my rallies again. >> this is going to be a significant challenge for the white house, rhetorically, politically, logically in the coming weeks because you hear white house officials and advisers to the president over the weekend say they are blaming mexico and the border for some of the cases around the border of this country, the sun belt, yet at the same time the president's holding this rally in oklahoma. if the president wants to blame mexico in the coming months and wants to blame protesters for the black lives matter movement and others protesting racial injustice, he will also have to contend with the fact -- a fact that he is holding mass gatherings himself. >> still ahead, it's not quite the type of obstacle course that west point is known for. president trump has some serious trouble navigating a single ramp during his weekend commencement ceremony. we'll talk about that just ahead on morning joe. - [narrator] the shark vacmop combines powerful suction with spray mopping to lock away debris and absorb wet messes, all in one disposable pad. just vacuum, spray mop, and toss. the shark vacmop, a complete clean all in one pad. to deliver your mail and packages and the peace of mind of knowing that essentials like prescriptions are on their way. every day, all across america, we deliver for you. and we always will. because you didn't have another dvt. not today. i didn't have to shout out for help. one blood clot puts you at risk of having another,... ...so we chose xarelto®, to help keep you protected. xarelto®, is proven to treat and reduce the risk of dvt or pe blood clots 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tools to manage your business from any device, anywhere. and a team of experts - here for you 24/7. we've always believed in the power of working together. that's why, when every connection counts... you can count on us. i'm wondering, did the west point cadets have to click on a disclaimer? around 1,100 west point cadets spent the last two weeks in quarantine so the president could deliver the commencement address. it sparked some concerns about the president's own health, particularly this weekend over the weekend where he cautiously descended a ramp at west point academy. the exit might have gone otherwise unnoticed but the president brought more attention to it after he tweeted late saturday night. the ramp that i descended after my west point commencement speech was very long and steep and had no handrail. most importantly, was very slippery. the last thing i was going to do was fall for the fake news to have fun with. final ten feet i ran down to level ground. momentum. there's no indication, however, that the ramp was slippery on a clear, sunny day. president trump also raised some questions during his west point speech after taking a moment to sip some water by holding the glass with his right hand but needing further assistance from his left. >> jonathan lemire, again, we don't know about his health care. a lot of people talking about the president's health. we'll leave it for the doctors for that. but it is images like this and even his speaking ability, or lack thereof, again undercuts their argument that biden is an old man and they should elect someone with more energy than joe biden when, you know, clip for clip, stumble for stumble, donald trump seems to be right in line with joe biden or in many -- >> way out front. >> -- times even worse. >> that's right, joe. even the matter of a president's health is of great importance to the american public. there have been questions about some of the information reported in president trump's previous physicals. you're right, there's no sense -- we'll leave others to speculate as to what was transpiring on saturday. we know the president often appears cautious on stairs and ramps when he walks. that's something he's talked about. i will say that he, of course, can't let any possible sleight go so he had to tweet about it and bring much more attention to it. but i do like any tweet or conversation with the last word, momentum. in terms of the politics of this, the trump campaign for months now has been trying to suggest that joe biden was not up for the job. both candidates are in their 70s. trump and his allies have suggested that biden has lost a step and they have done so not very subtly. we're seeing it in web ads and clips up on social media all the time. it is absolutely harder to make the case when we see video like this where the president himself is having momentarily stumbles, momentary lapses, straining for a word or whatever it might be. and i think for -- i talked to a republican aide over the weekend who, you know, made a point of -- pointing out joe biden when he spoke last week in philadelphia had a moment like that where his talks trailed off and the trump campaign itself put out that video, blasted it out to his millions of followers and he himself had to privately acknowledge that it's harder to make that argument when you have these sort of clips going around the media the same weekend. >> coming up, latest from atlanta where a police officer was fired early sunday following the deadly shooting of rayshard brooks. that's next on "morning joe." my nunormal: fewer asthma attacks. less oral steroids. taking my treatment at home. nucala is a once-monthly add-on injection for severe eosinophilic asthma. not for sudden breathing problems. allergic reactions can occur. get help right away for swelling of face, mouth, tongue, or trouble breathing. infections that can cause shingles have occurred. don't stop steroids unless told by your doctor. tell your doctor if you have a parasitic infection. may cause headache, injection site reactions, back pain, and fatigue. ask your doctor about nucala at home. find your nunormal with nucala. with spray mopping to lock away debris and absorb wet messes, all in one disposable pad. just vacuum, spray mop, and toss. the shark vacmop, a complete clean all in one pad. to sleepy smudges... to shower-skipping. these days call for a quick clean. luckily, help is still one wipe away. love, neutrogena®. moving on now, we're seeing outrage and anger in atlanta over another police-involved shooting of an unarmed black man. according to the georgia bureau of investigation, 27-year-old rayshard brooks was fatally shot on friday night outside of a wendy's restaurant after two police officers responded to a report of a man sleeping in a vehicle in the drive-through. we want to warn you that the video of the incident might be disturbing. authorities say brooks failed a sobriety test and this police body camera footage shows the struggle that ensues as they try to arrest him. eyewitness video shows both officers on the ground struggling to obtain brooks. according to investigators he was able to grab one of the officer's tasers and run away. security footage shows brooks turning back and pointing the taser toward one of the officers, appearing to fire it. the officer returned with fatal gunfire. the shooting prompted protests on saturday near the wendy's restaurant, which was set on fire. officer garrett rolfe, who discharged his gun, has been fired. the second officer, devin brosnan, has been placed on administrative duty. and atlanta's police chief, erica shields, resigned yesterday. according to an autopsy, the fatal police shooting has been ruled a homicide. the medical examiner said brooks suffered two gunshot wounds to the back. the lawyer representing the family of rayshard brooks told msnbc last night that the officers had other options. >> they didn't have to take this male or attempt to take him into custody because he was sleeping in his car. he was trying to do the right thing. he didn't want to drive drunk. he was stopped. he was not a threat to anyone. they could have taken his keys. they could have said, hey, what's your wife's number, call her, have her pick you up. they could have done a number of things. it shouldn't be a death sentence for anyone. >> reverend al, one expert in "the new york times" told "the new york times" that this was an issue of a situation that police officers call lawful but awful. at the same time, we're here in the midst of these marches over george floyd, this national conversation on police brutality, and just so many questions linger why the police officers shot this man for resisting arrest and running away with dui. >> in the middle of this national conversation, as you say, where we're actually seeing legislation in some states, and in minneapolis a whole revamping of policing. it is beyond me to even begin to fathom why police in atlanta, where they've also had incidents, would take out his gun and shot at somebody in the back that's fleeing. yes, the man was inebriated. yes, the man resisted and got into a verbal confrontation and even taken one of the stun guns. but there was no threat to this officer's life. there was no life-extenuating circumstances, which is what is required to use fatal fire. and the man was fleeing. you don't shoot a fleeing felon. i think the man did the right thing by immediately calling for the firing of this officer. i imagine he may be brought up on charges. i've talked with the lawyers in this case. i think you've got to look at it in the larger context, joe, that that is why we need to deal with some real concrete, federal and local legislation on how we deal with policing and police accountability. we're hearing the president is supposed to make some kind of statement in the next day or so around this issue, which is belated at best. we've been almost three weeks -- we are three weeks since the killing of george floyd and now the president is belatedly going to come out, we're told, and say something. it probably will not address the real core issue, and that is, how do we hold police accountab accountable. it is the best thing for police and citizens. good police, police that work every day and risk their lives do not deserve to be in limbo like this because you have a president that won't stand up and say, this is the wrong behavior and criminal behavior for police. this is proper policing. let's see if we can reconcile the two. without legislation there cannot be any reconciliation. >> and in this case, reverend al, the fact he was shot in the back, you know, proves that he was on -- was fleeing, not confronting, at least physically at that moment. but also, and i know you're tapped into these cases and trying to help. the police chief resigning. i'm curious if you know anything about that. i remember seeing her in the beginning of all these protests in the wake of the death of george floyd walking through the throngs of protesters and listening to them and talking to them and really trying to establish calm and understand more. and in this case now she has abruptly resigned. do we know anything about what's behind that? >> what i'm hearing is because there's been some incidents -- there was the police that really harassed two college students in their car under her watch. there were other incidents that led up to now the fatality in this case. that she took the responsibility that the buck stops here and resigned. and i think that many people in atlanta that i've spoken to, though they felt she had made some effort, felt she was not able to change some of the culture that embolden some of the police to continue to do things that clearly was against rules and probably against the law. >> coming up on "morning joe," the trump administration erases transgender civil rights protections in health care. we'll talk to actress and advocate laverne cox about that straight ahead on "morning joe." how about no no uh uh, no way come on, no no n-n-n-no-no only discover has no annual fee on any card. because when you want to create an entirely new feeling, the difference between excellence and mastery is all the difference in the world. the lexus es. a product of mastery. experience amazing at your lexus dealer. so to breathe better, i started once-daily anoro. ♪ copd tries to say, "go this way." i say, "i'll go my own way, with anoro." ♪ once-daily anoro contains two medicines called bronchodilators that work together to significantly improve lung function all day and all night. do not use anoro if you have asthma. anoro won't replace rescue inhalers for sudden symptoms and should not be used more than once a day. tell your doctor if you have a heart condition, high blood pressure, glaucoma... prostate, bladder or urinary problems. these may worsen with anoro. call your doctor if you have worsened breathing, 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care during the coronavirus pandemic. according to "the wall street journal," the rule would cut protections for transgender adults and 150,000 transgender teenagers in the u.s. and could lead to transgender individuals and others in the lgbtq plus community being denied health care. the administration says the policy is being changed to more closely adhere to the aca text which does not explicitly name transgender for health care. susan collins tweeted out, the trump administration's decision to eliminate protections for transgender patients is simply wrong. i will work to overturn this discriminatory policy. joining us, brooke sopelsa and laverne cox. jonathan lemire and reverend sharpton are with us. laverne cox, your reaction to the move by the administration. >> good morning, mika. i think people should know, first of all, is that this rule on friday comes when we're expecting a supreme court decision basically ruling as to whether or not existing federal law, indeed, covers the transgender community when it comes to discrimination on the basis of sex. that decision from the supreme court could come as early as this morning or in the next few weeks. the announcement on friday was really unnecessary because the supreme court will be ruling on this very soon. obviously, during pride month, when there's a national uprising against racial oppression in this country, when there's a national pandemic, this administration is basically adding insult to injury because last week two transgender women were found murder. so, that announcement on friday was completely unnecessary. the supreme court will be making a decision on this very soon. if the supreme court says it is legal to discriminate against transgender people in federal law, then it is incumbent upon each of us as citizens to make sure we flip the senate and flip the presidency because the equality act passed by congress last year does, indeed, expli t explicitly protect the community against discrimination. >> i cannot imagine what the motivation behind this would be except to cut health care access to more americans. >> and i think the important thing to note this measure on friday which rolled back protections which the obama administration had given to transgender individuals is part of the years-long trend in the trump administration to roll back or attempting to roll back recently gained rights, particularly by transgender people. so, we've seen this in education. we've seen this in the military. and we've seen this in employment. the title 7 workplace laws decided by the supreme court, as early as today. the trump administration submitted briefs in those cases basically saying transgender employees and gay employees are not protected under civil rights nondiscrimination protections. so, it's part of a broader trend. and i've heard a number of people express sentiment, as laverne did, the timing of this could not have been worse. it's pride month. the decision -- the rule came out on the fourth anniversary of the pulse shooting. >> jonathan has a question. jonathan, jump in. simproo >> i was about to note the anniversary of the pulse shooting as well. we saw over the weekend in new york city, in brooklyn, a massive demonstration, march, protest, in support of trans rights in brooklyn. certainly it's under great scrutiny from the federal government, but what are you seeing on the state level? are states stepping up in case there is changes on the federal level? and how widely do these protections vary state by state? >> that's a really great question. again, what folks should know is that with this rule that was announced on friday, some states explicitly protect trans folks and the lgbtqi community. there are protections in some states. this administration and what historically power does is try to divide and conquer people, try to demoralize people. what was beautiful about the demonstrations that happened in brooklyn yesterday, los angeles, all over the country, is that the protests for black trans lives with the black lives matter protests. there is acknowledgment black folks are also transgender, are lgbtqi and our lives matter. it's so crucial now we do not succumb to the divide and conquer of this administration that a threat to justice everywhere. every state is different in terms of the level of protection and so it's so important that on a federal level we have explicit protection. hopefully the supreme court does that. if the supreme court does not do that, we need to make sure congress does. >> reverend al. >> laverne, i want to pick off where you just talked about, the march and rally yesterday in brooklyn, my hometown, and the trans march and rally in l.a. i think part of what has been, frankly, hypocritical of civil rights activists, is not standing up for trans right and saying, wait a minute, the black community is the trans community, et cetera. we should be just as offended when they desecrate pride month as they do with juneteenth and we think the president shouldn't speak there. speak to the challenge of trying to bring the fact that violating anyone's civil rights is violating everyone's civil rights. you're not asking anyone to accept you. you accept yourself. just don't violate yourself self-acceptance and self-affirmation. >> absolutely. i think that trans intersections every issue. in rule 15-57 anyone seeking abortion access is allowed to be discriminated against, according to this provision. trans people are so beautiful and so amazing. and i think at the same way we're having a national reckoning right now around race in this country, and i encourage everyone, no matter who you are, no matter what race you are, to be integrating your implicit biases around race in this country. we should have the same internal conversations with ourselves and in our communities, with our friends and families about trans folks. we all live in a culture that devalues black lives, that devalues the lives of trans folks. have i to do work every day as a black person, as a trans woman to decolonize my mind. this is something we all must do to come together in a struggle for justice for everyone. >> brooke, we'll end on you. as you cover this, where is this headed next? what are you looking at? >> our coverage this month, our pride coverage, is very much centered on black/queer folks. one thing i do want to note, mentioning the intersection of trans rights and the black lives matter movement. last year the human rights campaign, which tracks transgender deaths due to fatal violence found that of the 28 trans deaths they tracked, over 90% were black trans women. the issues are very much intersectional. that's what we'll be focused on. our coverage, we're also planning a town hall at the end of the month, specifically focused on black/queer issues. we will be posting coverage of those issues and we'll have more information about our town hall, which will specifically focus on that. and pride this year, from the big global -- sorry. sorry. i thought someone was interjecting. the big global pride happening on june 27th as well as prides in new york and los angeles will be focused on black solidarity. that's what we'll be looking at, too. >> nbc out's brooke sopelsa and laverne cox, thank you very much. we want to mention laverne's latest project, the netflix original documentary "disclosure" begins streaming this friday, june 19th. we look forward to that. thank you both. up next, as leaders on capitol hill try to figure out a way forward on police reform, changes are already under way in several cities and states. we'll talk about that next on "morning joe." i don't keep track of regrets and i don't add up the years, but what i do count on... is boost high protein... and now, there's boost mobility... ...with key nutrients to help support... joints, muscles, and bones. try boost mobility, with added collagen. and mine super soft? with the sleep number 360 smart bed, on sale 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doing. ask your doctor for a prescription for the freestyle libre 14 day system. you can do it without fingersticks. learn more at freestylelibre.us. nobody is going to defund the police. we can restructure the police forces, restructure, reimagine policing. that is what we're going to do. the fact of the matter that police have a role to play. what we've got to do is make sure that that role is one that meets the times. one that responds to these communities that they operate in. i didn't grow up in favor of police even in the environment. we never feared the police. but all of a sudden now i do fear the police. the young blacks fear the police. why? because we have built in a system that's responding, once again, to brown people with education and everything that comes with it. the fact of the matter is, this is a structure that's been developed that we have to deconstruct. so i wouldn't say defund. deconstruct our policing. >> democratic congressman jim clyburn of south carolina speaking yesterday. as the debate over a federal police reform continues on capitol hill, across the country, we are seeing growing list of policy changes at the state and local level. on friday, louisville mayor greg fisher banned no-knock warrants by signing breonna's law, named for breonna taylor who was killed in a no-knock raid. t the ordnance requires an active body camera whenever a search warrant is served. andrew cuomo enacted the eric garner anti-chokehold bill. with a signature that revoked a bill that kept police records secret. in iowa, governor kim reynolds signed a bill that also bans chokeholds and prevents police officers from being hired in the state if they previously have been convicted of a felony or fired for misconduct. and in colorado, the legislature passed one of the most sweeping statewide reform packages in the country on saturday. according to "the denver post," colorado's senate bill 217 bans the use of chokeholds and carotid control holds, limits when police are allowed to shoot at a fleeing person and requires officers to intervene in cases of excessive force or face criminal charges. meanwhile, three sources tell nbc news the president has dismissed racial justice protesters repeatedly telling a aides, these aren't my voters. he also made the remark during a meeting about how to respond to the unrest on the day that protesters were forcibly cleared from lafayette square park to make way for the president's photo op in front of st. john's church. the revelation is part of a deeply reported piece on the divide inside the white house on the movement for racial justice. quote, it looks like he's bewildered right now, one political adviser said of the president. we're losing the culture war because we won't engage directly because we're so scared to be called racist. the adviser said the president and his allies should be taking on the black lives matter movement by calling it a front organization for a lot of crazy leftist ideas that are unpopular. another political ally said the opposite, that the president appears to be spinning wheels because he's not setting the agenda on policing and race in the u.s. when he should be leading on these issues by taking steps like banning tactics like chokeholds. a white house official tells nbc news that the president doesn't want to make this trump versus the protesters. more he's the outsider factor that can bring about law and order. yeah, he keeps tweeting that. law and order. like -- just randomly tweets it. >> jonathan lemire, one of the things that surprised me so much over this past year is that this politician who is supposed to be so great at reading a room and so great at reading a moment in time and so great at using culture wars to advance his political career seems completely incapable of nuance. and we can talk about the gun debate where i kept getting assurances from the white house they were going to move on background checks. they were going to move on military-style weapons. they were going to move on bump stocks which took a long time for them to even move on those basic things. now we have the protesters, 75, 80% of americans supporting people out on the street who are protesting. there's been a sea change over the last two or three weeks, and the white house seems completely incapable of reading that room. of reading that movement. of reading that country. those aren't his voters? 75%, 80% of americans who support it? those are his voters. but he can't see it. why? >> frank luntz told us at the ap this week he's not sure he's ever seen a politician more out of step with a moment than president trump is right now with these protests on the street. it's reminiscent of the gun debate where the white house talked the talk for a while but ended up removing themselves from the conversation and right now the president does not really have a voice in what is going on. i think the efforts -- there was initial instinct to paint the black lives matter moment as a fringe leftist idea, and that's clearly out of step with the mainstream support it enjoys. every poll after poll reflects that. 75%, 80%, as you say. the president is so closely aligned himself with the idea of law enforcement. he doesn't want to alienate them. he's counting on their support again this fall but at what cost? others -- there are some in his orbit that have urged him. because you enjoy that such strong support you have the ability to move forward with some change, with some reform. but the president has been slow to embrace that. there's still been no real national address on the issues of race that have plagued this country. he made passing remarks at the roundtable in dallas last week but that speech was overhyped. he mostly uttered support for the police. there are still discussions about maybe this week he'd say something further, but that's unclear. right now it's a white house spinning its wheels. the energy on the streets has not dissipated and they're not sure in the west wing how to handle it. >> you know, rev, donald trump says the protesters aren't my voters, but he seems to miss the bigger point that suburban women that have been running away from his support and other people who have been offended by him talking about shooting people in his tweets, talk iing about vicious dogs, it sends a strong, powerful message to those swing voters who have been fleeing his camp since 2017. one wonders whether this will only harden that resolve to get out and vote against him in november. >> i believe it will harden that resolve to vote against him because they have taken a firm move in terms of supporting police reform and supporting what many of us have been fighting for a long time. to try to have the equalizing of the criminal justice system. and for him to not only be tone deaf but to be opposed to that is to enhance the numbers of those independents and those suburban women that voted for him to say, wait a minute. not only has he missed it in terms of the pandemic. he's missing it in terms of that we believe has now come to this time period that we've got to deal with. and we'll not vote for him. and the strange part about it, joe. he's from new york. these were not issues that he should have list. he's from the city of amadou diallo and abner louima. the fact he doesn't get it is either intentional or he has a tin ear. >> yeah, rev, you and joe have been talking for quite some time, for many months about how to express this friction in the country. and actually been talking about a song joe wrote and a music video that put together, which you are featured in, which we are about to show, but i first wanted you to set it up a little bit and talk about this ongoing conversation that you guys have been having. >> you know, joe and i started talking several months ago, as you said, mika. and joe, people don't know, is really a great producer, musician. and he played this song to me, and i said to him, this needs to come out now because it gives us hope. it lifts us. it's gospel oriented in terms of its music but it's not just church gospel. it's gospel in a broader pop sense. to lift us up. and i was saying, if you look back to the martin luther king days movement all the way to the things we do now, there was always the soundtrack of hope. a soundtrack that we shall overcome. that we can make it. yes, it's bleak. yes, we're being harassed. yes, we feel down, but we want to be up. and when he played this "lift us up" and he's redone it now with the videos that connects us from marching in selma to the marches on floyd now, it is something that i think will be the soundtrack as we go into 2020 summer. we need to be lifted up. we can't lose hope. and he's put it in music. >> well, take a look at this as sung by steven hayden, roz brown and tanisha gary. here is joe's song "lift me up." ♪ i'm brokenhearted knocked down on the floor ♪ ♪ i hear a whisper saying try once more ♪ ♪ still i can't erase the memories and try to pretend ♪ ♪ that after all we've been through lately we can be the same again ♪ ♪ lord, lift me up lord, lift me up ♪
>> thanks, ari. >> thank you. and welcome to "the beat." i am ari melber. we are tracking several big developments as the week begins. fallout over the trump administration's botched ousting of the top federal prosecutor in new york and fallout from that big rally. we have an interview tonight with the former head of the sdny. but we begin with tulsa, where a man who trieds himself on crowd size found a rally so sparsely attended that "the new york times" reported trump looked out on the tiny crowd in "horror," reports of a backstage meltdown. the venue, basically a third full. and as you'll see in some of the rafters, a color coincidence, where the maga red crowd was sup planted by a sea of blue seats. one trump friendly adviser said this was obviously "a major failure." everyone knows that crowds matter in politics, because supporters show your strength. and donald trump looked weak in that empty hall, and weakness doesn't help your credibility. as shawn carter famously said, we don't believe you, you need more people. trump needed way more people, even on republican turf. and he knew it afterwards. returning home forelorned, mournful, tie undone, holding that red hat that looked about as crumpled and disappointed as the rally itself. and that, everything i just told you was just the attendance, because the bad political news for donald trump may have -- medical experts were pleading with residents avoid this rally, don't come. coronavirus cases hit an all-time high in the state, and now 26 states are seeing increases over the last two weeks. that's the context for trump's other problem from that same rally night. that he claimed he was ordering a testing slow down, which has generated massive controversy that trump is either walking back or dodging. the pressure is coming from inside the campaign, as well as external advisers. and now a former top, top aide slamming his former boss, the president, for leading the country what he says is clearly the wrong direction. >> how do you think history will remember donald trump? >> i hope it will remember him as a one-term president, who didn't plunge the country irretrievably in a downward spiral. >> we have heather mcgee, of the color of change, and a long-time expert for us. and returning to "the beat," soledad o'brien, host of "matter of fact." soledad, when you look at the rally, the political side, as well as the substance, and where we're headed tonight, what do you think? >> i think the united states continues to be on a terrible trajectory when it comes to coronavirus. i know the conversation, coronavirus just dropped to the b block of the news as protests took over the a block. but the bottom line is, we're seeing spikes. arizona, florida, texas, colorado. i mean, things that should have been done a long time ago, miami is just now mandating masks all the time. i mean, in new york, we've been doing that for a very long time. so we still don't have good contact tracing, we still don't have enough testing, et cetera, et cetera. so the president, at his rally, i know his press secretary likes to pretend he was joking, but i don't think he was. i think he genuinely believes if you didn't test, you don't get the numbers. don't get the numbers, it didn't happen. it's an indication of a leadership vacuum around the biggest health crisis in america, and in the globe, in the last 100 years. public health officials are out and out full-on freaking out in many places and concerned about the rise in hospitalizations, and the president is utterly rudderless when it comes to leading. >> you mentioned leadership, which is where the political and the substance meet, soledad. heather, here was john bolton again. we note on the show how he's late and appears self-interested in what he's uncorking. but in journalism, you get all kinds of information. this is what he now says, having been in the room and up close about donald trump's approach to governing in public service. >> i think one of the most important things i learned in watching president trump up close is he doesn't have any philosophy. he doesn't proceed on that basis or on the basis of a grand strategy or policy. it's all about donald trump. that to me is a lesson for americans as a whole. but particularly for conservative republicans, because if trump wins re-election, which is entirely possible, there's no more guard rail based on what the republican party may think about him. so people need to understand that. >> heather? >> you know, i do think that john bolton waiting was selfish and i do think that he should have spoken out much more loudly during the impeachment trial and put more pressure on republicans to subpoena him. but you can't deny that everything he says in the book, from what i've seen so far, you know, adds up. this is a fundamentally selfish human being, who has put 300 million lives in his hands and is leading our country from crisis to crisis. you saw in the trump speech on saturday the same old divide and conquer tactics, right? he hit a quick trifecta of racism, talking about sort of an immigrant or latino home invader being -- stalking a wife whose husband was not home. he talked about thugs in the street. he talked about, you know, just sort of a menacing threat from people of color and the confederate statues that are our great and beautiful heritage. i suppose just the descendants of people committed treason against their country to defend slavery. yet with all that racist fearmongering, you look at his agenda, it's massive handouts to the wealthy, massive handouts to the biggest corporations, and total malfeasance when it comes to the basic responsibility of keeping americans safe and to keep the lights on. at the end of the month, so much of the aid passed by congress is going to expire and we're going to see potentially tens of millions of people being evicted, losing their homes to foreclosure, going without extended unemployment insurance, and this is on president trump. >> but we've been nothing this, heather. and nice to see you. but there's no shocker where you're like, oh, my gosh, who knew that donald trump did not have some core beliefs guiding him as he went from being a democrat to a republican who over the years has said over the top crazy, racist things. i think john bolton is selling his book. that doesn't mean what he's saying isn't 100% true. he's just use thing opportunity to get more people to buy his book. which is unfortunate. if he had testified, it could have been a lot more useful in terms of informing people and giving some leverage to having our elected officials be able to do something about it. >> yeah. and soledad, i want to play the way that the rally has potentially changed the trajectory of the trump campaign. you've been so thoughtful on these issues, the substance and the journalism, which on the one hand is superficial. on the other hand, calling that out and understanding that this is how their decisions are made i think is an important thing for people to understand, as they go into the ballot box, because that means everyone can understand what the priorities are. here is the campaign manager discussing this. take a look. >> i think a fundamental mistake was made. overpromising and underdelivering is, you know, the biggest mistake you can make in politics. even if you receive a million or a 1,200,000 rsvps, it's always about the turnout. what that means is, we have to go back and re-evaluate the system in which people were getting those tickets and determining if they were real. >> soledad -- [ overlapping speakers ] this was the former campaign manager, corey lewandowski. go ahead, soledad. >> i was just going to say, he's not wrong. clearly, there were a bunch of teenagers, i know, because i have some, who were ordering tickets on line and a bunch of their friends. i was surprised the campaign wasn't aware of that. because it wasn't a secret. some people were doing it as a protest, others doing it as a joke. but it was an open conversation for joining people who were on tiktok. so i was surprised that the campaign didn't see some red flags in that. then you have people who were saying, don't go to a place indoors where you could get coronavirus, right? that in and of itself red flag for people trying to stay away. then you have, when you advertise a million people going to one location that only seats 20,000 people, another red flag. so i was surprised that they didn't get of put all those red flags together and say, maybe having a conversation about a million plus people is going to be a huge mistake. but it's not like the -- >> heather? >> i do think that this crowd size piece is helpful for, you know, rattling the president, who is absolutely obsessed with his appearance in many different ways. the fact that he spent 15 minutes out of a presidential address, not talking about the daca decision, that defeat, that protected the dreamers last week, not talking about the george floyd and black lives matter protest that have swept the globe. didn't mention those ones except obliquely protestering as thugs. but 15 minutes defending himself -- >> it goes back -- >> i was just going to say that this idea of his own appearance is completely -- he's completely obsessed with it. the problem is, what he is and is not paying attention to has life and death consequences for the american people and his desire to make himself look good by down playing the coronavirus, by not willing to wear a mask, by fomenting a partisan split on mask wearing. it's reckless. it means that he's unable and unfit to carry out the constitutional duties of the office. he should reseen. the republican party should remove him. i think we can talk about it back and forth. but ultimately, he should face the ultimate consequences for these actions. >> heather is 100% right, but it goes back to what you started with. he doesn't believe it. there's no center. it's about how many people showed up. it's about somebody saying bad things about me. that's all he responds to. and it's been this way now for going on four years. there's no shocker in that. so heather is 100% right on that. he has so many more important things he could be talking about. he cannot physically bring himself to do it. he does not have a bone in his body that seems to care. >> perhaps not shocking, but we're fwbenefitting from the context to start the week. soledad, heather, thanks to both of you for joining us. >> pleasure. >> thank you. >> thank you, guys. we're going the fit in a break. we turn to a big story. attorney general bill barr trying to strong arm independent prosecutors, firing the head of the famed sdny. i'm going to get into it and tell you what we learned about it. and an interview with the man who literally led that office. you won't see that anywhere else tonight. and a new york police officer caught on tape using a controversial chokehold. and a special video tracking how donald trump and his allies are using a trick that could be decoded and fact checked. maybe it will help you with all your maga friends or any time you're doing political fact checking. i'm ari melber. you're watching "the beat" on msnbc. we hope you find these digital solutions helpful to bank from almost anywhere. deposit a check with your phone or tablet. check balances, pay bills, and more. send money to people you know and trust with zelle. explore all you can do with our digital tools from almost anywhere. pnc bank. me too. me too. and if you're a small business, we're with you. standing by you every step of the way. bye bye. i wanted my hepatitis c gone. i put off treating mine. epclusa treats all main types of chronic hep c. whatever your type, epclusa could be your kind of cure. i just found out about mine. i knew for years. epclusa has a 98% overall cure rate. i had no symptoms of hepatitis c mine caused liver damage. epclusa is only one pill, once a day, taken 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more ways to rule your renovation. nice! on any budget, with free shipping. wayfair. way more than furniture. sometimes the most important news is not what happens all week, but it's the moves the government tries to hide from you. like a new legal scandal the trump administration tried to bury this past friday night. >> we have breaking news from the department of justice, specifically from the super important southern district of new york. the u.s. attorney jeff berman is out in what appears to be a friday night news dump. >> indeed. a few facts here. sdny handles some of the most pivotal investigations around. it's been run by the big names like james comey, rudy giuliani, david kelly, preet bharara, and that prosecutor, jeff berman, was a respected lawyer who even donated to trump's campaign. this is not some story about a clash with obama era personnel. and the stakes here are greater than some other stories about trump turning on his hires, from john bolton to impeachment witnesses. the reason is that this new york office has jurisdiction over trump. let me repeat that. it's not true of other places in the country. this office has criminal jurisdiction over donald trump and his business, and his family, and any associates that do work for him in new york, be that michael cohen, who this very office sent to prison, or rudy giuliani, who was reportedly under investigation by this office. and you know who has known all of this from the jump? donald trump. he was laser focused on sdny as soon as he won the election, even calling berman's predecessor, u.s. attorney preet bharara you see right here, to trump tower for a personal meeting during the transition. >> the president-elect asked presumably because he's a new yorker and is aware of the great work our office has done over the past seven years, asked to meet with me to discuss whether or not i would be prepared to stay on as the united states attorney to do the work as we have done it, independently the last seven years. i agreed to stay on. >> without fear of favor, he meant it and apparently trump didn't like it, because he briefly kept preet bharara on but fired him later, after calling him on the phone, trying to cultivate a relationship, which preet bharara said appeared improper. this all matters right now, because it's berman who replaced preet bharara and experts are saying trump wanted someone more loyal, but berman followed the tradition of being aggressive and independent of politics. >> we are aggressive, we're appropriately aggressive. that's the history of the office, and i think the public is better for it. >> politics does not enter our decision when making a case. we bring a case when it's ready to be brought. >> berman is knockout over the weekend. and there's evidence supporting what he just said there, because the sdny has been bringing many notable cases when ready. from cases that gave the trump administration headaches to cases against a trump nemesis who talked about running as president, michael avenatti. >> i said michael cohen would plead the fifth, he did so yesterday. i said he would be indicted. he's been indicted. i said he's going to roll over on the president. i don't think there's any question about that, when push comes to shove. >> some liberals cheered his attacks on trump and cohen. the sdny went on to indict both cohen and avenatti. and also investigate trump's inner circle and any other big cases that came along, ranging from key banking in foreign policy issues to indicting jeffrey epstein to sex trafficking of minors, after a 2008 plea deal he received from another trump official. that caused consternation inside the administration. the office indicted two giuliani associates linked to the ukraine scandal. berman referring to the ongoing cases in this clash this weekend. he didn't name them specifically, but tonight, and over the course of this period while everyone is digging into this, legal experts suggesting that the sdny probe of giuliani could have driven barr's attempt to oust berman. others noting how the indictment of halkbank was causing strife. taken together, that is the very probe that john bolton is now alleging trump may have tried to interfere with or tried to obstruct. >> the president said to erdogan at one point, look, thoet prosecutors in new york are obama people. wait till i get my people in and we'll take care of this. it did feel like obstruction of justice to me. >> it felt like obstruction of justice to him. john bolton is saying the president committed the crime of obstruction. that's big alone, and now you have this new energy and action around it. and that allegation brings you all back to the beginning. remember donald trump sizing up obama appoint gee preet bharara, just like comey and others. he replaced him with berman, who may have looked like one of trump's people. but was he just ousted for not acting like it? this is already a huge deal for each of those reasons, which are backed by evidence. then add to that what also went down during the friday night news dump. attorney general barr falsely said berman was resigning. berman said that wasn't true, and then he appeared to prove it by not resigning. and then hen some republican senators were pushing back on barr's plan to have an outsider take charge of this office that is handling all this important stuff. that was a potential violation of federal law, because the deputy is supposed to take over. now, we can also report so much has happened since they tried to bury this on friday night, that that particular part of barr's original plan has failed. berman's deputy will take over, keeping independent prosecutors in charge rather than the plan to get a hand-picked trump ally in there at least for now. there are also reports that the senate may not confirm any new nominee for this office before the election. that's a lot. it is so important. so let's wrap up here with a couple of questions. if this plan was on the level, why didn't barr just tell the truth about it on friday? if these prosecutors were not digging further into these key sensitive areas for trump, why did the trump administration pick this fight right now with everything else going on? and if the trump administration begins with an unusual clash with the one office with the power to indict trump and his allies in new york, and then fires that person, preet bharara, sit possible that now this clash is also about that very power? we think the answers are significant and we'll explore them with our expert guests when we're back in just 30 seconds. where will you go first? wherever you may go, lexus will welcome you back with exceptional offers on exceptional vehicles. get zero percent financing and make no payments for up to 90 days on all 2020 lexus models. experience amazing at your lexus dealer. we're joined now by john flannery and melissa. professor, having laid out the purported history, your view of this? >> that was quite an issue spotter you laid out. it seems like what you have laid out is what's going on, something is definitely rotten in the state of denmark. if this had been a legitimate removal for cause, it would be obvious that the attorney general would say what those causes were. whether they were professional misconduct or incompetence. but there's no suggestion of that. in fact, it seemed like attorney general barr was willing to slot jeff berman into some other high ranking position in the doj. so it can't be that he wasn't doing his job well. it might have been he was doing his job too well. sproz fe >> professor, add on that point. in the original plan, which berman says was false, that barr's announcement was false, he was offered a type of promotion or come back to main justice. so you're saying, being the expert litigator and legal expert you are, that barr cannot claim this person was good enough to be promoted to a bigger job in d.c. but bad enough that he had to go immediately if >> it beggars belief to suggest that you would slot this person into a really important post ahead of the civil division, while he was able to execute his role as u.s. attorney in the southern district of new york. the fact that the administration seemed willing to put in another person, who is now the head of the ftc with no prosecutorial experience suggests the issue was they didn't have the right man in the right job at the right time. >> john? >> well, you know, i think it would be surprising to me that any u.s. attorney in the southern district of new york -- i think the context tells us a lot. we said on a sunday when barr had written his summary of the mueller report, which misled the nation to the findings. from that moment forward, we have the amoral trump and his corrupt mouthpiece barr working against the investigation of his president, both in terms of victimizing those who did the investigation, trying to transfer prosecutors in the case, and the most recent examples, of course, are stone and after that, of course, flynn, and now we have this instance in an office where they're investigating cohen, his lawyer, rudy, his lawyer, the inaugural committee. we have the deutsche bank in that district which was his prime lender, that is trump's. and we have his statement courtesy of bolton that he spoke to erdogan and erdogan assured don't worry about those people in the southern district, i'll take care of them. [ phone ringing ] so we have a whole cornucopia of obstruction, which i plooech be this is what this is. the fire -- the president can fire whoever he is, but a judge cannot judge in a matter he has an interest. so you have a president choosing who his prosecutor is, and he wants to choose a guy who couldn't handle a misdemeanor case in the southern district of new york and is just interested in holding the position. >> john, you're pin pointing, john, some of those key cases and the efforts to key nneecap independent system we have, and that is the foundation of the rule of law in the united states. i should say on a lighter note, i know you keep a busy home office, i'm surprised people don't do illegal appearance on television. but that's between you and them. >> yeah, well, i think some of them do. >> everybody wants your legal opinion. for both of you, before i bring in one more special guest, because this is such a big story. john, why is it important for folks who don't follow this in and out that the literal federal law requires the independent prosecutors stay in this pipeline of cases, that the president does have the technical authority to remove people. but unlike say white house staff, john, berman was fighting tooth and nail, he obviously it's not his stiyle to clash wih his boss and call him effectively a hirliar, but to m sure the independent prosecutor stayed in, john. >> well, an independent prosecutor means you just don't interfere. it's not that complicated. but trump e either out of desperation or a specific reason we don't know, he wants to look at this. as we're talking this wednesday, the judiciary committee has two whistleblowers that will talk about how political it was in the end, and they're hoping to have berman, and i don't know how candid he will be. i will say this as a criticism, but sometimes we feel we have a professional responsibility to, i don't know, advance at the moment. speaking specifics is really necessary, because we have a problem in this country. as important as berman in the southern district is, my home district originally, this is a pattern across america. laws, judges, congress, usurping all of these things. only a despot takes this position. it doesn't surprise us that erdogan is his best friend. >> i want to bring in the other guest, but there's a book part of bolton, but one of the other underlying facts, you often have complex witnesses. the question isn't whether you like them, but whether they're adding value. i want to bring in matt miller, well versed on these issues between main justice and sdny. good day to you, sir. >> good to see you, ari. >> for you and then melissa. there is a part of this where you see the limits of even attorney general barr's approach. reading from an expert, matt, who was speaking to "the new york times," "as attempted power plays go, this was an abject failure and served only to undermine the credibility of the attorney general and the president. a former prosecutor who headed a key office at the fbi. your view, matt? >> i think that's right. look, one of the things we learned from this episode is, bill barr is every bit as corrupt as we thought he was, after he interfered with prosecution in the d.c. u.s. attorney's office and his work on the mueller report. but he's slightly less competent. this suspect the first time he's interfered with an office and seen it blow up in his face. you look at the way he sp interfered with the sentencing of roger stone. and i think the reason it's blowing up in his face, he's underestimating the commitment to due process by some of the career men and women at the doj. and not just them, but some of the president's appointees, jeff berman being first on that list. so i think to kind of build on what john was saying. going forward, the house has an investigation open. i hope jeffrey berman comes forward and talks. but i hope some of the career people at the southern district will come forward and talk, too. and not just to the inspector general, but to congress. the attorney general is completely blowing off any oversight. he's refusing to turn over documents. he hasn't testified to the house once, breaking all precedents set by previous people in that position. i know it's tough for people to come forward. but when the attorney general is attacking the department from within, it really is incumbent for everyone who cares about that department to step forward and let their voice be heard. i hope some of them will. >> professor? >> i think it's worth noting, and matt mentioned it, the jessie lou incident at the d.c. district when he was removed with the promise she would go on to the head of treasury. she never did get that post. but we have seen this over and over and over again. it's absolutely unprecedented. even during the bush years, we never saw it quite like this and never saw the justice department having such a stake in making sure the right u.s. attorneys were in the right place at the right time. >> john? >> well, you know, i think that what we have here is a total breakdown of our legal system. in the sense that there's no one above these people to correct them. i was encouraged that the judiciary chair, nadler, is trying to introduce a bill to withdraw $50 million from the office of barr. also, we lawyers have written a letter saying the i.g. should investigate how he's handled these cases and so has nadler made a request that the i.g. and the justice department look into these things. these are not strong enough matters. there's censure, there's subpoenas. for those people who are no longer in justice or in the administration, they should use the inherent power. in other words, they should use muscle. a poor workman blames his tool. we have the sconconstitution. we have the tools but we're not using them. there's nothing more important than the law in this nation and following the constitution and conducting it with a ghedemeano that stands across the world as a beacon of who we are, how we believe in fairness. this administration believes in none of those things. we're living in a period of time where we hear nothing about racism, we have people that do not believe in equality for all of us. and the community of this nation has shown they don't believe this. >> matt miller, given your time there, do you have any view of which cases may have set this to a boil? >> no, i don't. look, i think the question for me is, was there a general threat they were worried about with five months to go before the election and the u.s. attorney who has jurisdiction over so much of the president's interest. i just worry they can't have someone independent there. or was there a specific threat? either one of the ones we mentioned or one we don't know about. there could be other investigations going on under the radar to which -- about which we have no idea. but bill barr would know about them. >> right. matt miller, melissa, john, all really important insights here. coming up, the excuse that president trump tries to use and the tape to show you why it doesn't work. all about lol. but first, a "beat" exclusive. we will have david kelly, breaking this all down when we come right back. with spray mopping to lock away debris and absorb wet messes, all in one disposable pad. just vacuum, spray mop, and toss. the shark vacmop, a complete clean all in one pad. in so many ways. which cage free eggs taste fresher and more delicious? 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>> i haven't. i have not, not since this happened, no. >> when is the last time you did have communication? >> oh, i don't know, sometime in the last -- probably right before the pandemic. >> yeah. so you guys talk. you know him. and i hope you don't mind me starting the interview out like a deposition. that's what you taught me. >> i haven't been in a deposition lately, so fire away. >> so unlike most americans, you do have contact with her we amr, you ran that office. on a skalt cale of zero to ten scandal off the level, how do you view based on what's happened with the public information. >> somewhere between 10 and 12. the best case scenario for doj is to say that this looks really bad. the worst case scenario is exactly what it looks like, which is trying to subvert the independence of the southern district. >> wow. that's big. i mean, as you know, there are times where a tie goes to the runner, presidents pick their team, but so much has gone down with this office. do you think there are cases, publicly known or not, that were in the mines of barr or trump on this move? because that would look like meddling, or as john bolton put it, a former trump aide, a potential obstruction of justice? >> yeah, look, i think i was kind of with matt from the last segment, which is to say i would be surprised if it was directed at any particular case. i just think that at this juncture, the fact that they have someone in there who is independent is not what they want. they would rather have somebody who is more beholden to the administration, somebody they can keep an eye on. that's why they were initially planning to put in the u.s. attorney from new jersey as the acting, which is mind boggling. but not because there's anything wrong with the u.s. attorney in new jersey, but it would have been unprecedented to have somebody come in from another office to run the southern district, particularly under these circumstances. >> so you are joining some of the other experts who said there are tells here. that even if you try to take a benign reading of it, the fact that there was a clash over the accuracy over barr's initial plan, the fact that rather than putting any qualified person in, including the deputy, they said oh, we'll take another person from a busy office and double their workload, that tells us what, in your view? >> to say it was handled ham handedly would be giving it a compliment. what is does that tell you about bill barr at this point? >> look, i'm not quite sure -- i mean, this is just one in a series of the continuing where i think by most former federal prosecutors, that the justice department has become politicized. that it is not untouchable from the executive branches it once was. and that's a sad day. >> understood. i know that means a lot for you, because you've served as many of your colleagues have in both parties, you're not about coming around and picking fights with a particular attorney general. final question, giuliani responding. let's see what he's saying. if they're investigating me, they're doing it in the most su surrunty shouse way possible and basically suggested, you know, i'm upset they're giving away this information. he says i have nothing against berman, but i would like him to clarify what the hell is going on. giuliani feeling berman, if there was a probe touching giuliani, that berman was doing potentially something wrong there. >> i don't know what he's pointing to that berman is doing wrong. it wasn't berman coming out and talking about the giuliani speculation, others were speculating where the attorney general made the move he did. so i don't think there's anything there. and, you know, i'm not quite sure what we can take from what mr. giuliani says about anything these days. >> understood. and finally, i'll mention to viewers, you have a role as representing another former sdny chief, james comey. there has been a lot of noise out of doj about those issues, which i think take on a different cast, seeing how this is going. and whether any retread of the russia probe or other things are going to happen, are they going to happen by november? what's your view on all of that, or is the quiet on that suggest that there's no there there? >> well, certainly, look, by many accounts, john durham is actively under way. somewhat exactly he's doing is a lot of people are guessing. but it's kind of, you know, you have the inspector again look at this and said that people acted appropriately. you've had the senate committee come out and do investigations saying no one did anything wrong, and what the justice department is going to go in and find that those others did not remains to be seen. but you do have to kind of wonder what the motive is, and mr. giuliani was talking about berman releasing details about the investigation of giuliani, but frankly, if you really want to talk about those standards, you look at what the attorney general has been saying about durham's investigation and the suggestion about the indictment of -- or the people who are, you know, very familiar who are going to have a problem when this investigation concludes. so it's troubling. >> understood. and i know you pick your words carefully, so appreciate all the legal insights on this. david kelly, former u.s. attorney for the southern district of new york, good to see you. >> thank you. up ahead, the white house saying donald trump was only joking about stepping in on the covid testing. we have something special to show you that you may want to see and how it basically puts this joke defense in context. that's next. now more than ever, you need technology you can rely on. and people you can rely on. i'm a dell technologies advisor. me too. me too. me too. and if you're a small business, we're with you. we are with you. we're with you. we want to help. so we'll be right here. at home. answering your calls. providing support. and standing by you every step of the way. bye bye. wherever you make go, lexus will welcome you back with exceptional offers. get zero percent financing and make no payments for up to 90 days on all 2020 lexus models. experience amazing at your lexus dealer. experience amazing it's just that it's... lavender, yes it is. old spice, it's for men. but i like the smell of it. 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[ laugh ] that's a lot of storage! perfect. you're welcome! i love it. how did you do all this? wayfair! speaking of dinner, what're we eating, guys? the nypd is responding to reports of this new apparent chokehold that was caught on tape, and they're suspending the officer in the incident. this happened sunday morning in queens in new york city. officers tackling 35-year-old ricky to the ground and as we always say, a warning on these type of videos. the thing you're about to see is difficult to watch. >> stop choking him, bro. he's choking him. let him go, bro. >> he's out, he's out. >> bellvue was brought to a hospital. now his lawyer is saying he suffered injuries to the head and wrist. the police commissioner is already acknowledging, and this is a contrast, that the incident, the clip of which you just saw was, quote, disturbing and an internal investigation has already begun. we wanted to bring you an update on that story. we're out of time. thanks for watching "the beat." we'll be back tomorrow night at 6:00 p.m. good evening from new york. president trump is reportedly furious over what he sees as a disappointing turnout at his tulsa rally this weekend. trump had predicted that there wouldn't be an empty seat in the house but rows of seat went largely unfilled in the venue's upper levels. according to the tulsa fire marshal, there were fewer than 6,200 in attendance. that's about a third of the
capitol hill where lawmakers on the house judiciary committee heard his plea to change policing across our country. >> i can't tell you the kind of pain you feel when you watch something like that. when you watch your big brother who you looked up to your whole entire life die begging for his mom, i'm tired. i'm tired of pain. pain you feel when you watch something like that. he didn't deserve to die over $20. i am asking you if that is what a black man is worth, $20? i'm here to ask you to make it stop. stop the pain. stop us from being tired. it is on you to make sure his death is not in vain. >> by the way news out of the twin cities where we've learned that thomas lane one of the officers charged in connection with the death of george floyd has been released on 3/4 of a million dollars bail. the president has yet to come out with any definitive proposal to address police reforms even though house democrats, senate republicans are working on their own pieces of legislation. white house aides are said to be working on the issue but this afternoon during a meeting with african-american supporters trump avoided specifics instead focused on what he says has already been achieved. >> you go down the list of criminal justice reform and all of the things we've done, opportunity zones, the best unemployment rate in the history, just before the plane came in. when you look at the economics and how well the black community has been doing under this administration nobody has done anything like we've done. and the big thing is criminal justice reform. i keep hearing about oh, criminal justice reform. everyone is trying to take the credit. that one i will say we will take the full credit because they couldn't have done it without us. >> you don't need closed police departments. >> no. we need the police. >> tomorrow trump travels to dallas where he is expected to talk about race and policing with law enforcement officials. and faith leaders, we're told. politico reporting there appears to be a new effort within trump's base to promote defend the police as opposed to the recent calls to defund the police. the white house is now defending trump posting a false conspiracy theory about the video that shows the 75-year-old man in buffalo, the protester knocked down by police officers. the false tweet calls it a, quote, set up. >> does the president regret tweeting out a baseless conspiracy theory about a 75-year-old protester on the morning of george floyd's funeral? >> the president was asking questions about an interaction in a video clip he saw and the president has the right to ask those questions. >> but does he regret tweeting out this protester was assaulted? >> the president does not regret standing up for law enforcement. >> should the president have facts before he tweets anything out? he is the president of the united states. >> the president did have facts before he tweeted it out that undergirded his question. >> meanwhile trump has come out firmly in opposition to another movement that's been gaining support as the nation grapples with these issues. he says he is now firmly against renaming the various u.s. military bases named after con federal commanders. quote these monumental and very proud bases have become part of a great american heritage and history of winning victory and freedom therefore my administration will not even consider the renaming of these magnificent and fabled military installations. late this afternoon nascar which has hosted trump as grand marshal at the daytona international speedway announced, quote, the display of the confederate flag will be prohibited at all nascar events and properties. the ban was requested by bubba wallace the only black driver currently in nascar's upper echelon. house speaker nancy pelosi is now calling for the removal of statues of confederate soldiers and officials from the u.s. capitol. there are 11 of them. in portsmouth, virginia tonight demonstrators took the heads off four confederate statues and pulled one down using a rope as police stood by. amid all of that trump is now getting ready to get back on the campaign trail with his first rally in nearly three months taking place next friday night. >> we'll be starting our rallies the first one we believe probably we're just starting to call up will be in oklahoma. in tulsa, oklahoma. beautiful, new venue. >> meanwhile, more bad polling for the president. new gallup survey shows his approval rating has dropped ten points to 39% as trump resumes campaigning. the federal reserve is predicting long term high unemployment and a tough road out of our recession. that comes amid reports of major retail chains restructuring, getting out of the business, and some of their stores. still trump says he sees an economy on its way back. >> we are doing well in so many ways. we're really doing a financial comeback. the jobs numbers were fantastic. i think the economy will be next year will be maybe the best it's ever been. >> on that note for our lead-off discussion on a wednesday night, our guests. good evening and welcome to you all. shannon, i'd like to begin with you with a preview of tomorrow. something less than a national address on race and policing which some folks around the president told us all to expect but a teleprompter remarks tomorrow, what are we expecting tomorrow in texas? >> well, what is on the president's official schedule now is a round table event in dallas on transitioning the economy after the coronavirus. so not necessarily a round table discussion on race or policing issues. it appears to be on the economy. nbc news was told earlier today to expect the president on the trip to dallas to address issues of race and police reform. and certainly police reform. while they wanted to have the president talk about some tangible policy recommendations he could make around policing they certainly don't expect that tomorrow but were hopeful he could at least outline some of his thinking, some things on the table, possibly some executive orders he could take. but throughout the course of the week the administration officials have been sort of down playing expectations on what we should expect to hear from the president when it comes to addressing underlying issues of race and policing that really drove the protests. at the end of last week they were telling me the president was going to spend the weekend in a listening session putting together policies. we're still hearing from people that there may be a policy package coming from the white house but not until friday, maybe sometime next week. so this keeps slipping while as you noted the president is weighing into more divisive issues on race like the renaming of the bases after confederate and military leaders or the conspiracy theory about the protester who was shoved by the police. those things he is talking about but we still aren't hearing tangible solutions from him. >> indeed, peter baker in the meantime does the white house seem at all aware of the gravity of the testimony on the hill? do they seem aware of what has been taken and asked of this one american family? the print edition of your paper, the headline reads, "gop blindsided by public's rage at floyd killing." "the washington post" puts it that his party is now politically isolated. is this as we discussed last night another way of saying, you go to war with the demographic you have? >> i think that the white house is perfectly aware of just how powerful that testimony was today, just how powerful this whole movement has become. i think they have a president whose instinct is to defy the conventional wisdom that he needs to reach out to them. he has shown every day where his real instincts are and the instincts are if somebody says we should rename the confederate named army bases he is going to say no. he got angry when he saw reports the military was thinking about doing this. secretary mark esper, the chairman of the joint chiefs of staff were talking about that as part of a more comprehensive plan to address issues of race within the military. remember the uniform ranks are 43% of people of color so a lot of strong feelings within the military as well particularly talking about the last few days whether or not the military should be sent to the streets to confront protesters and so the pentagon, very angry today when the president upended them with those tweets but he understood that was something that would appeal to his base, the people he thinks are turned off by the street protests and appeal to those who find the idea of law and order the message of the day. most polls show more americans including a lot of republicans are sympathetic to the protests but the president is putting himself against the popular tide. as you point out even nascar, an institution that is very favorable to president trump, a lot of the fans are, said no more confederate flags today. the president is tacking against that movement we're seeing in american society right now. >> eugene, because words matter, you and i are old enough to remember the effort by trump and republicans to get hillary clinton to use the phrase, radical islamic terrorism. well, there is a new conversation afoot about the phrase systemic racism. i'll offer you this. we'll talk about it on the other side. >> does the president feel there is systemic racism in law enforcement? >> he believes that most of our police officers are good, hard working people. there is a lot of evidence of that and he has great faith in our police department. >> i think there is racism in the united states still but i don't think that the law enforcement system is system kali racist. >> i will say it again. i do not. >> so, eugene, three people saying everything is fine. >> yeah. no systemic racism. i mean, i don't understand why the administration is trying to plant a flag there because the enemy has already advanced. far beyond that point. this is a moment where many americans who may previously sort of have been close to the idea sort of get the concept of systemic racism. white americans who might in the past have seen it as the phrase as some sort of threat to them or accusation directed at them rather than actually a neutral description of the reality of the american life. people are more open to that now. i think you saw a hint of that in nascar's stunning decision to ban the confederate flag at all nascar events, which, you know, so the president is trying to cater to the nascar crowd but nascar is, has already moved on. i just think they're way, way behind on what's happening and they just don't seem to have a clue as to where the country is. that is a bad place for a president to be. >> so, shannon, tell me how the trump campaign pulls off this bank shot of campaigning and having rallies during a pandemic and a time of civil unrest. is this so all about the base that the people they would attract in the crowd, it's not like they are going to be encumbered over a fear of a pandemic. it's not like it is going to take time away from their civil disobedience in the streets. >> well, you raise that connection between civil -- you know, the protests that were seen in the trump rallies because one thing that we have been hearing is that the campaign felt that the images of tens if not hundreds of thousands of people in the street not social distance org wearing masks sort of gave them coverage to say, well, if there can be a giant masked protest gathering of all these people we can certainly have a rally. we don't know if the rallies will necessarily look like a stadium packed full of people shoulder to shoulder. they could be an outdoor event possibly where people are spread out a little bit more. but that, those images of the protest were a catalyst to get that going. i'll say something about the value of the rallies too. it is certainly important for the president emotionally to get out there, important for his base to charge them up, but the rallies are very important to the campaign structurally because they provide an enormous amount of data. they are really data collection and mining operations. everyone who signs up for a ticket gives their e-mail to the trump campaign which can cross check it with the voter profile and consumer history and find out what type of people are showing up to support the president. for the past few months the campaign has been flying blind in that regard and having to depend on polling mostly public polling. so the rallies will give them a better window into where the president's supporters lie and what the demographics of those people look like and how it's changed over the past few months. that is also a key thing to keep in mind with these rallies. >> peter, you've writ then week about this law and order presidency. steve schmidt added this to the conversation earlier. >> this isn't a conversation about law and order but about justice. when trump talks about law and order it is the law and order of bull connor, the law and order of police dogs and vicious dogs and domination of the streets. that is not law and order. the people who crave law and order are the people on the streets protesting for justice. >> indeed, peter, while trump has invoked richard nixon a time or two, you cite perhaps a more accurate example. >> i think people talk about the 1968 campaign and, remember, nixon's appeal to law and order and of course he did. he ran against the sort of counterculture against the student protesters and anti-war protesters and to some extent obviously the riots after the assassination of martin luther king. but what people forget is he ran in the middle in a way between hubert humphrey on the left the democratic nominee and george wallace on the right. george wallace with the segregationist former governor of alabama running on a third party. it was wallace who was the more combative, more incendiary candidate that year. nixon actually had a theme of bring us together. he talked to suburban audiences, and marched in martin luther king's funeral procession that year. while he obviously did play to the concerns and fears of a lot of particularly white, middle class americans that the upheaval they were seeing in the street was disturbing he was careful to balance that in a way we don't see out of this president. in fact if anybody right now the president is sort of occupying the wallace lane going the hard right, law and order without making much of a nod of concern to the people in the streets who have legitimate concerns to be addressed. >> the president has announced this rally. tulsa, oklahoma next friday for the good people watching who may not know tell folks the meaning of the calendar date next friday and especially locally in tulsa, oklahoma. >> oh, okay. the meaning of the calendar date june 19th. so the emancipation proclamation was issued the beginning of 1863 during the civil war. however, for obvious reasons it was not announced to the enslaved people who were freed by the emancipation proclamation during the war. and so that didn't happen until the war was over. the last state about enslaved african-americans were told they had been emancipated or freed was texas. that happened on june 19th, 1865. june 19th. and so that date is celebrated by many african-americans. that is the significant, significance of the date. the significance of the place, tulsa, 99 years ago the most horrific race riot in our nation's history, certainly one of them took place in tulsa, oklahoma. this is a race riot according to what was a definition of a race riot up until the 60s which was a riot by people white against black people. this centered on part of tulsa, african-american business district that had been known as the black wall street. it was a horrific, horrific mob attack on innocent african-americans that killed perhaps hundreds of people. it is unclear exactly how many. there are some efforts under way now in tulsa to unearth what might be mass graves. it was a horrific thing and that was 99 years ago. that is the significance. he knows how to pick them, this president. >> yeah. just want to let people know it is not just a friday in tulsa, oklahoma. thank you for that. our thanks to shannon pettipiece, peter baker, and eugene robinson, three good friends of the broadcast. coming up after our first break we have hit a major milestone in coronavirus cases. this is not a good one. one of our country's leading experts is with us tonight to tell us what could happen next. as more of our country reopens. and later, being against racism is one thing but are you antiracist, specifically? we'll talk to the author of the best selling book on this topic who says, that may be the true test. "the 11th hour" is just getting under way on this wednesday night. there are times when our need to connect really matters. to keep customers and employees in the know. to keep business moving. comcast business is prepared for times like these. powered by the nation's largest gig-speed network. to help give you the speed, reliability, and security you need. tools to manage your business from any device, anywhere. and a team of experts - here for you 24/7. we've always believed in the power of working together. that's why, when every connection counts... you can count on us. the number of coronavirus cases in the u.s., testing dependent, has now surpassed 2 million. many states that were first to reopen are already seeing something of a second spike. cases are now rising in at least 21 states. experts say the spike is tied to the reopening. in just the state of arizona think about this. hospital patients have doubled in the last ten days. we welcome back to our broadcast dr. michael osterholm professor and director at the center of infectious disease research and policy university of minnesota and happens to be coauthor of the recent book "deadliest enemy our war against killer germs." doc, here we are. there is only talk about reopening in the media say for some talk about the spikes in cases in a number of states you and i can rattle off. and kind of slowly people still at home lightly branded as worry warts for not wanting to get out and comingle. as i've asked so many times where are we in this virus? >> first of all we have to understand we're not over coronavirus at all. we are at the beginning. 5% of our population has been infected to date with all the pain, suffering, death, and economic disruption. know we're going to 60% or 70% of the population infected one way or another either through the virus or will develop immunity through a vaccine which isn't going to come any time soon. the constant talk about being over with is ridiculous and dangerous. in terms of where we're at in this country right now you really have to have a sense of humility and say we don't know. you correctly pointed out that 21 states are seeing cases increase. that is compared to 17 ten days ago. if you look at the number of states seeing decreases right now that is 25 compared to 16 ten days ago. so we are seeing almost the tale of two countries. one where cases are increasing and one where they are actually dropping. where they are reopening. so i think it is unclear where we're at right now. >> i've been struck by the silence from the cdc, the silence from the coronavirus task force. i don't know it is still a working unit. they have abrogated their responsibility in public health by not updating people on this. i hope everyone involved is cool with that being part of their obituary. the vice president tweeted out this photo tonight, since taken down, he went over to trump/pence campaign headquarters and of course a lot of folks in social media noticed one thing about the photo. find a mask. anywhere on any person in the photo. perhaps for that reason and realizing that it violated restrictions in virginia right now where it was taken, this photo was taken down tonight so where are we in the traditional federal government role of public health updates and education? >> the fact that i can't answer that tells you something. i don't know and that is really unfortunate. the cdc you're right doesn't say much. they are doing good work in the states, a number of cdc out helping state health departments and doing great work. but that kind of messaging, that public health leadership we need is really absent. i think the administration has just decided the virus is done and over with. the problem is they don't get to decide. the virus will decide. as i've said before, we're not driving this tiger but riding it. we are going to see a lot of coronavirus infection in the months ahead and no amount of willing it away is going to make any difference. >> we've talked about the social justice during a time of social distancing. is it safer to protest outdoors or attend a political rally indoors? >> right now anything you can do outdoors is better even if you are around other people. we'd like to have you stay apart. distancing is the most important thing you can do by far. there is no other public health intervention of any kind that is more important. outdoors the virus dissipates very quickly. particularly a more windy location. ironically beaches happen to be some of the best places in the world to blow the virus away. if you in fact are in close contact outdoors, however, you're coughing because you've encountered tear gas or smoke, or are yelling and screaming then you may transmit more. clearly indoors is the big challenge. we've known for decades if you want to transmit these human viruses from people breathing and sharing air the place to do it is indoors. that would be art ya that i don't care what you are doing, whether a rally, a meeting, any of those activities, indoors is clearly a much higher risk. >> doctor, we so look forward to your visits. from minneapolis tonight, our thanks as always. >> thank you. coming up, our next guest writes eloquently about the struggle of a lot of americans to be antiracist. the questions he says we need to be asking. we'll talk to him when we come back. so what's going on? i'm a talking dog. the other issue. oh... i'm scratching like crazy. you've got some allergic itch with skin inflammation. apoquel can work on that itch in as little as 4 hours, whether it's a new or chronic problem. and apoquel's treated over 7 million dogs. nice. and... the talking dog thing? is it bothering you? no... itching like a dog is bothering me. until dogs can speak for themselves, you have to. when allergic itch is a problem, ask for apoquel. apoquel is for the control of itch associated with allergic dermatitis and the control of atopic dermatitis in dogs. do not use apoquel in dogs 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with a heart, they know that's wrong. you don't do that to a human being. you don't even do that to an animal. his life mattered. all our lives matter. black lives matter. >> again, all we ask is that people consider what's been taken from and then asked of this american family in the space of 16 days. calls for change permeate beyond injustices of police brutality in our country. as our next guest writes in the atlantic, quote, black americans are constantly stepping into the souls of the dead because they know they could have been them. they are them. because they know it is dangerous to be black in america, because racist americans see blacks as dangerous. for more we are happy to welcome our next guest who has joined boston university to launch the school's bu center for antiracist research and is also a contributing writer for the atlantic. as an author he is already a recipient of the national book award and his latest work how to be an antiracist is currently on the "new york times" best seller list. professor, we are so happy to have you on and this is where i'd like to begin. let's talk about the white folks who are self-identified as enlightened. maybe even woke who are proud to proclaim they are not racist. how long a walk is it from where they are to what you see as antiracism per se? >> well, i think that in their minds they are already antiracist but what's actually the case is by self-identifying as not racist they're self-identifying in the way slave holders self-identified themselves as nonracist, segregationists argued that they were not racist. even donald trump says he is the least racist person anywhere in the world. so the construct of not racist has historically been people when they're challenged with being racist they respond, i'm not racist. that is all that it has ever really meant. but there is a very clear sense of what it means to be antiracist. people who are antiracist believe the racial groups are equals and are striving for policy that leads to equity and justice. >> what are the questions people, good hearted people everywhere, should be asking right now? >> well, i think good hearted people should be asking questions as to why in minneapolis are black people only about 20% of the population but more than 60% of the people who are subjected to police shootings. why is it black and brown people are disproportionately infected and killed from covid-19? these are racial disparities. there are only two answers to the two questions. either it is because there is something wrong with black people, something wrong with brown people, or it is the result of racist policies. i think americans need to ask these questions so they can understand where they stand on the racist or antiracist side. >> starting on the policing side of the equation are you optimistic? has your opinion changed over the past 16 days that police departments -- this entire defund conversation going on -- police departments can be rebuilt to better serve knowing that when we all dial 911 we need to know there is somebody coming? >> i don't know whether i am optimistic or pessimistic but i think looking at the reality of so many americans from small towns to big cities who recognize that police violence is a serious, widespread problem, that there is a culture of violent policing and, indeed, when people decided or are now deciding to demonstrate against police violence we've seen police violence at the demonstrations against police violence so i think americans are seeing this is a problem and this is a problem that needs to be changed and there is really no tinkering around that really we need to reimagine public policing and public safety. >> i want to play something from professor eddie glaude over at princeton and get your reaction because i heard a through line between his words and your writing. we'll talk about it on the other side. >> i was also thinking about the nature of black public grief and suffering and trauma. that it has to be in public in this way. i was thinking about going back to 1871 and congressional hearings around the kkk and we had to testify to the torture, the maiming, the loss of loved ones. thinking about all the moments where we have to in some ways make explicit our loss, our trauma, in order to move the country. >> professor, your reaction? >> i think that is one of the things that really to understate it bothers black americans that it takes something so egregious that in terms of george floyd's murder, breonna taylor's murder and the outcry of the public for them to realize black people feel pain, too. black people are human, too. their lives matter, too. why does it have to be something so egregious? why can't we see the every day problem of racial profiling as something that needs to be transformed? why does it have to be as serious as the death of someone like george floyd? >> again the book, how to be antiracist. as an author you are already a winner of the national book award. a great pleasure having you on the broadcast tonight. thank you for joining us. >> thank you for having me on. coming up for us, why so many veterans of the justice department would like to see its current boss investigated. we'll talk to one of the people who signed on to a letter saying just that. right after this. the sleep number 360 smart bed is on sale now. can it help keep me asleep? absolutely, it senses your movements and automatically adjusts to keep you both comfortable and now, save up to $600 on select sleep number 360 smart beds. plus, 0% interest for 48 months on all beds. only for a limited time. over 1200 former department of justice employees are urging the agency's watch dog to investigate attorney general bill barr's role in clearing protesters from lafayette park last week. horses, clubs, weapons firing chemical dispersants were all used on peaceful citizens. a short time later the president appeared for his widely condemned photo op holding up a bible in front of st. john's church. the doj alumni letter to the inspector general reads, quote, we are disturbed by attorney general barr's possible role in ordering law enforcement personnel to suppress a peaceful domestic protest in lafayette square. on friday the a.g. denied giving the order to clear the protesters but earlier in the week the white house press secretary told reporters it was barr in fact who made the decision and this reminder. barr himself made a very public visit to the park knowing it would be spotted by the cameras that day as he conducted his personal survey of the crowd. back with us tonight the former fbi assistant director for counterintelligence. among our national security analysts for good reason. so, frank, people are exhausted. people have watched accountability wash away. these days when you have a problem in this government you fire the inspector general. people have seen other, the letters with mass signage get ignored. as a signee of this letter why is this important? >> first because we should refuse to allow what i call outrage fatigue to become numb to us. the members of the department of justice that signed this letter are saying we can't get used to this. this is not normal and we need answers about the role of this attorney general and the use of excessive force against peaceful protesters in lafayette square. we need to know who gave the order, who planned to execute this use of force including a pepper spray gas and rubber bullets and injuring peaceful protesters and journalists and even greater than that, brian, we are asking for a larger inquiry into the attorney general's role involving the protests. why is it he seems to think he is in charge of non-doj law enforcement? there were secret service, military, park police in lafayette park. does he think he is in charge of those agencies as well? let's get this worked out. if he has a case to make let's hear it. right now we demand answers and the inspector general specifically that is what we are asking for is inspector general inquiry, his job? ferret out waste, fraud, and abuse and i think all three elements are there. we also need answers on how this attorney general could have declared the drug enforcement administration, the d.e.a., some kind of secret agency to monitor and sur vail protesters throughout the country and gave them broad federal authority to do so. let's get some answers on that. we're going to set a precedent moving forward for the future and before we do that let's call time-out. >> if reasonable people agree this a.g.'s greatest act of sum education thus far was to act as human kevlar and shield the blast of the mueller report, from his boss, as a.g. barr is remembered years after he serves, where will this act in lafayette park rank do you think? >> i think this is going to form a legacy of attorney general viewed through the lens of history extremely harshly. he is going to be viewed as someone who did not stand for law and order but rather abused his authority. he is going to stand for someone lying to the court. this was a bad day for attorney general barr. if you look at what's happened in the district courts in columbia we have a judge sitting in the flynn case who has said barr is not being truthful when he asked to dismiss the charges against former national security adviser flynn. the language there is extremely harsh saying the briefing that was filed was filled with errors of fact and law. says it looks like the only reason this dismissal motion was made was because flynn is a friend of the president. this is something that can't go on and we need answers from this attorney general if he is going to continue in that role. >> and that ladies and gentlemen was why we felt the need to hear from frank figliuzzi tonight on our broadcast. our thanks as always. coming up we get a report from overseas tonight about the impact of george floyd's death thousands of miles away from home. ♪ this virus is testing all of us. and it's testing the people on the front lines of this fight most of all. so abbott is getting new tests into their hands, delivering the critical results they need. and until this fight is over, we...will...never...quit. because they never quit. when we say that george floyd's death has already changed the world, that is not an empty phrase. protests now indeed stretch around our world. and in the united kingdom, demonstrators are confronting longstanding images of that country's own history with slavery. our report from london. >> reporter: anger at injustices of today exacted upon the symbolism of the past. edward colston's statue, profiteering as a slave trader. cast into the harbor where slave ships once docked. black lives matter protests are forcing a brutal reckoning with the country's brutal history. thousands demand the removal of many monument to slave trader cecil rhodes at oxford, and this statue of robert milligan, another slave trader, lifted from plinth in central london in front of cheering crowds. >> problem with statues, they say this man is hero, there's no debate or flexibility, not effective mechanism for telling us history. >> london's mayor sadiq khan has ordered a commission to review the statues. landmarks, and murals. and erase links to the slave trade. even the record of one of the most famous sons is in question. graffiti on the statue of winston churchill, largely removed now, calling out his record of racist remarks. demonstration too far for one of his biggest admirers. >> i will not support those who break the law. if you want to change the urban landscape. stand for election. >> reporter: signs that the movement is spreading. 150-year-old statue of king leopold was removed from belgian city of antwerp yesterday. who caused the death of millions in africa. george floyd's death shined a light. his legacy may change history too. >> example of what we're talking about. coming up, some of the other news. important story particularly that got by as our attention was focused elsewhere past few days. we'll have it for you after this. last thing before we go tonight, full disclosure, this is not happy news, and it's not for the faint of heart either, but it is a reminder, while we cover a pandemic and social unrest, governing goes on. rules get changed almost as if no one is looking. this happens to be about hunting in alaska. here is the headline, here is the photo, and here is the reporting from lisa friedman of the "new york times." we quote -- baiting grizzly bears with donuts soaked in bacon grease, using spotlights to, hunting methods that for years were decried by wildlife protecters and finally banned as barbaric by the obama administration will be legal again on millions of acres of alaskan wilderness. in time for the warm july weather. national park service policy published the new rules on tuesday, reversing obama administration rules and giving trophy hunters 30 days to prepare to return to national preserves in alaska with the revived practices. among the reinstated tactics, killing wolves and coyotes, including pups, during the season when moms wean their young and using dogs to hunt bear. article points out this is a issue championed by president's son don junior, recently auctioned off a week-long dream hunt through the wilds of alaska. that's tonight's reminder that elections have consequences. that's also our broadcast for this wednesday evening. thanks for being here with us. on behalf of all of our colleagues at networks of nbc news, good night from our temporary field headquarters. temporary field headquarters. tonight on all in, nascar bans the confederate flag and the president defends the confederacy. it's america 2020. the coronavirus still raging. 21 states now seeing a surge in cases and trump's own task force raising new alarms. the pandemic that hasn't gone anywhere. plus, stacey abrams is here on george's spectacular voting failure. and what americans should be worried about in november. and heather mcgee on the seismic shift in american views on racism when "all in" starts right now. good evening from new york. i'm chris hayes. the coronavirus is not gone, and worst of that in some places it looks to be roaring back.
spoke emotionally about his brother, who, because of a witness with a cell phone who happened to be present, was killed on camera so that the whole world would eventually witness it, too. and he echoed calls for police reform across the country. >> i can't tell you the kind of pain you feel when you watch something like that. when you watch your big brother, who you looked up to your whole entire life, die, die begging for his mom, i'm tired. i'm tired of pain. pain you feel when you watch something like that. i'm here to ask you to make it stop. stop the pain. stop us from being tired. >> the hearing comes days after house democrats unveiled sweeping legislation to overhaul policing. south carolina senator tim scott is taking a lead for republicans on the issue. he's expected to release his plan later in the week. according to "the new york times," republicans were caught off guard by public support for police reform, and privately, republican lawmakers and aides conceded they had few proposals ready to offer. of course, there's always the forever wild card, donald trump. senior administration official told nbc news he plans to address police reform during a visit to dallas tomorrow. officials told nbc trump has stressed to aides it's important to him to keep most of the law enforcement community on board with whatever policing reforms the white house proposes. the press secretary said the white house is finalizing their plan. >> the president is looking at various proposals, and i would say this president has done a whole lot more than democrats have ever done when it comes to rectifying injustices. >> in minneapolis, one of the three former police officers who is charged with aiding and abetting was released on bail. the minneapolis police chief released changes proposed, and announced he would end contract negotiations with the police union. >> this work must be transformational but i must do it right. there's nothing more debilitating to a chief from an employment matter perspective than when you have grounds to terminate an officer for misconduct and you're dealing with a third party mechanism that allows for that employee to not only be back on your department, but to be patrolling in your communities. >> for more, i'm joined by congress m congressman which heard from george floyd's brother today. and jonathan la mere, white house reporter. congressman, how did it feel to hear the brother of george floyd speak to us today and what about you, what about that testimony do you think might change the way things are? >> good to be with you, joy. it was a really important day. and i would encourage every one of your viewers to watch his testimony in full online. it was incredible powerful and we were so grateful that he was willing to join the committee and share his perspective after memorializing his brother. i thought his testimony was quite moving in particular as he talked about wanting to make sure that his big brother, george floyd's death, was not in vain. so as we reflect where we are today, i will tell you, not with standing, i'm hopeful that we are going to enact those sweeping reforms that you described at the top of your program. ultimately, i think the hearing today was very important in that regard. >> and just to give you a few for the viewers, this is some of what is in the bill, called the justice in policing act. it bans chokeholds and no-knock warrants for drug cases. it would create a federal misconduct registry so that people who committed misconduct can't just move from department to department. eliminates qualified immunity for law enforcement. requires local police departments to send use of force data and makes lynching a federal crime. that all seems rather logical. joe biden today had an op-ed where he talked about police reform. he said he opposes reducing federal police budgets. he says while i do not believe federal dollars should go to police departments violating people's rights or turn to violence as the first resort, i do not support defunding police. the better answer is to give police officers the resources they need. e resources they need. >> congressman, some of these police departments are taking up already 40%, 30% of the budget at municipalities. to you agree with joe biden that more money should be given to them when there are already so many problems with the money they have? >> well, look, i read that editorial you mentioned. what i would say is from what i've seen the vice president has put out a fairly bold set of reforms in terms of what he would imagine policing to be in the ways in which we can improve policing and address police brutality. and the fact that he is calling out that we need to invest in other areas to address some of the substantial inequities that still exist in our country, in terms of investing in african-american entrepreneurship, addressing the home ownership gap and issues we both care deeply about. civil governments are having the debate you're describing in terms of the investments that they want to make in core public services. but i will just tell you from my perspective, given the conversation today, there's strong bipartisan consensus to enact those sweeping reforms that you described. and it's hard to overstate just how impactful some of those reforms, such as eliminating the chokehold and the national registry to prevent officers from being hired by other agencies who have committed misconduct. pattern of practice being initiated. those are important reforms, the reforms of a generation. so i think that's where our focus is going to be. >> okay. let me hold you. i want to bring in the police chief of charlottesville, virginia. police unions are quite powerful. you've had the minneapolis mayor say he's suspending negotiations. it can be very difficult for mayors to get any changes at all because of the power of those unions. do you believe that federal -- that a federal law is needed in order to give, including yourself, chiefs, the power to, for instance, get rid of officers who have serial misconduct on their records? >> so thank you, joy, for having me. i appreciate it. i think that this is much more nuanced than what we're saying. so when the police says, he's no longer going to negotiate, what we haven't parsed is that he doesn't have the authority not to negotiate. minnesota is a binding arbitration state in which their state has said that there are these essential employees who are designated as essential, that cannot strike, and that you must enter negotiations with them. so ultimately, it's for the legislator to change the binding arbitration concept so that you can renegotiate a social contract with your policing agencies and not necessarily a formal contract. >> but let me ask you this, the way -- from the police point of view, given the power that police have, given the fact that they essentially have the sayability to kill and at least per the supreme court, can walk away from that, there's not a lot the public can do it. they're often not even found guilty when that misconduct winds up as a court case. given the amount of power police have, do police understand that power has to come with oversight, that they should be scrutinized? >> so absolutely. and not only should they understand that, they should understand that their power and authority comes from the people. it's not just legislated, it comes from the people. and that gives us our ultimate authority. what we also need to really just address is the stigma that our police culture has when you have officers who have been engaged in misconduct or when there has been police violence, police brutality, police murders, public executions of individuals, is that our culture ostracizes those individuals who speak up against those types of behaviors. there's a lot of power that we wield, the power literally of life and death. this should be a profession highly scrutinized and highly supported if this is the type of policing entity that we want here in the united states. >> yeah. let me bring in jonathan. this is some video that a lot of people have seen out there. this is donald trump speaking to police and the way he thinks they should behave. >> when you see these thugs being thrown into the back of a paddy wagon, you just see them thrown in, rough, i said please don't be too nice. like when you guys put somebody in the car and you're protecting their head, you know. [ applause ] >> that was back in 2017. you can hear police smirking and laughing. you can see them laughing and smiling behind him. you just had in tulsa, oklahoma, where donald trump will do his first speech back out on the road, in tulsa, where the tulsa massacre took place. he'll do that on a very significant day. here's a major, a police major named travis yates on police shootings of black people. this is what he was quoted as saying. this is mr. yates on a radio show. you get this meme of blacks are shot 2 1/2 times more, and everybody just goes oh, yeah, they're not making sense here. you have to come into contact with law enforcement for that to occur. so when you look at law enforcement contact, a certain group is committing more crimes or violent crimes and law enforcement having to come to -- into more contact with them, then that number is going to be higher. who in the world in their right mind would think that our shootings would be right along in the u.s. census lines? all of the research says we're shooting african-americans about 24% less than we probably ought to be based on the crimes being committed. so the attitude of police, which i think black folks are used to at this point, what does it mean when the president of the united states encourages that kind of attitude? what do you expect out of that speech in tulsa, sir? >> well, first of all, i'll note, joy, it's more than just a speech, it's a rally. the president's first campaign rally since he had to put them on pause because of the coronavirus pandemic. that's going to be a night where we all watch as you lay the stakes out plainly and powerfully there for when he's in town. in terms of tomorrow, he's going to be in dallas. and he's expected to be having a fund-raiser and now they added this roundtable with law enforcement officers, community leaders, faith leaders to talk about law enforcement and also inequality in american culture. now, to this point, of course, the president has largely steered clear of the racism debate. he's time and again aligned himself with law enforcement. in fact, one of his senior advisers, larry kudlow today said he did not believe that america had a systematic problem with racism in law enforcement or in society. the president to this point has focused on, as we know, keeping order on the streets, projecting american might, focusing on the small percentage of protesters who have engaged in violence. there's been a debate within the west wing in the last week or so whether or not he should give a speech about race in america, but more advisers than not, and the president himself opted against feeling like they didn't feel like it would change the equation. so tomorrow in a less formal event, he will speak about it. it's not clear what he will propose. there's top of executive order on race, perhaps supporting what the republicans in the senate are trying to put together. but it will be modest at most. the president is not expected to lend a lot of support to sweeping reform of the police department. he has enjoyed their support and wants to continue to have their support going into november's election. >> people used to call it giuliani time. donald trump is much like rudy giuliani in the way he ran new york. chief, does that translate down to officers when they know they have the support of donald trump, and he's encouraging as much brutality as they can get in because these are others they are policing. does that make a difference in the way that police behave? >> so absolutely. in an email exchange i had with the national president of the nicp in march, i challenged him why we weren't pushing back against an administration who encourages basically barbaric and brutal behaviors. i think what it is, we now are having a reckoning where the public is saying we are going to dismantle a barbaric and brutally efficient criminal processing enterprise, which we currently rammed as a criminal justice system. it pushes down when people hear that from the highest levels that it is sanctioned and it is okay, and when it is then signed off by a department of justice who says we will take a hands off approach. as a matter of fact, undue consent decrees for those agencies who have had patterns and practices of abuse, it signals it's okay to continue with the way in which you engage communities, because there's no value to their lives. >> yeah, go back and google what the giuliani era was like for black people in new york, vis-a-vie the police. it will seem very, very familiar with what you're seeing now. thank you all very much. coming up, by now we all know that donald trump has a problem with powerful women. especially women who stand up to him. well, one of his recent targets, the mayor of washington, d.c., painted black lives matter in big, bold letters on the street leading to the white house. and renamed the street leading to jump's front door black lives matter plaza. the mayor joins me next. georgia's election catastrophe. broken machines, people waiting in line for hours to cast their ballots. how much of this is negligence, and how much is voter suppression? the mayor of atlanta, keisha lance bottoms joins me. we've got so much more to get to. stay with us. stay with us hey. you fell asleep with your sign again. 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and had the words black lives matter painted in bright yellow letters on the street. when trump threatened that vicious dogs and ominous weapons awaited protesters behind the white house gates, she accused him of hiding behind his fence, afraid, and alone. no surprise that she's now receiving a flood of national coverage, even after trump ordered the withdrawal of national guard troops. here's what she said about being on the receiving end of trump's attack yesterday. >> how does it feel to be targeted by the president of the united states? ited states? >> all right. i'm joined now by d.c. mayor muriel bowser. mayor bowser, thank you for being here. i do believe we have you. let's talk first about the removal of the national guard from washington, d.c. there was a piece in politico that talked about the struggle that some of those guardsmen had. let me read a little of that. ot >> now that those troops are gone, what do you have to say to the president and the way that he used the individual guardsmen, not just what he did to the protesters? oh, okay. we're going take a quick break. we actually do not have the mayor yet. we'll take a quick break and we'll be right back. we'll take d we'll be right back. allstate won't raise your rates just because of an accident. cut! is that good? no you were talking about allstate and... i just... when i... accident forgiveness from allstate. click or call for a quote today. stand up to moderate to severe rheumatoid arthritis. accident forgiveness from allstate. and take. it. on... ...with rinvoq. rinvoq a once-daily pill... ...can dramatically improve symptoms... rinvoq helps tame pain, stiffness, swelling. and for some-rinvoq can even significantly reduce ra fatigue. that's rinvoq relief. with ra, your overactive immune system... ...attacks your joints. rinvoq regulates it to help stop the attack. rinvoq can lower your ability to fight infections, including tuberculosis. serious infections and blood clots, sometimes fatal, 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day and what happened? >> i do. and i think americans are going to demand it. we saw with our own eyes peaceful protesters cleared from in front of the white house for what appeared to be only the president's trip across the street. and what we also need to know and be very clear about is how and whose orders those federal police officers were following. and we need to know that so that it never happens again. not in our city or not in a state or any city in the united states of america. >> and the troops have been removed from washington, d.c. do you think that to be blunt the president was shook by your demand that those troops be removed? >> well, i think that his stunt backfired. i think they made very clear, i think you showed a tweet from him early on where he threatened to release vicious dogs on the people of the united states in washington, d.c. i think they made up their mind then that they were going to use washington, d.c. as theater, to put on a show for the rest of the united states so that other american mayors and governors would fall in line. and what happened instead is the american -- sent a very clear message that in the united states of america, you have the right to peacefully protest. >> and can i just show you -- i hope you can see this. this is the walls that have been built in front of the white house. we know that donald trump utilized the bunker and that he was certainly afraid of the protesters and so had hid at one point. this is the fence at the white house. for you as a black woman, to hear the president of the united states threaten to sick vicious dogs on americans, sort of bull connor, george wallace style, to put up a fence in front of the people's house, just viscerally for you, how does that read to you when you hear it? >> well, viscerally for me, the statement about the vicious dogs was intentional. i think that it was meant to send a message to many, many americans, many people that i represent, my family and friends, who lived through those days. and it was a triggering moment i think for them, and as me as a person who wasn't even alive during those days, but i know my history. i recently did the pilgrimage with john lewis where i had to rewalk those steps that so many of our civil rights leaders walked. and to hear in 2020 the threat of vicious dogs being released on the people of washington, d.c. shook me to our core. they claim they brought in the military because of unrest, but they decided that day they were going to bring in the military as a show of force, in my view, in my opinion. >> yeah. i want to let you listen to senator mitch mcconnell of kentucky, and he had some specific accusations about you and what he says is a double standard during the pandemic about being out of doors. take a listen. >> here in the district of columbia, the mayor celebrates massive street protests. she actually joins them herself. but on her command, churches and houses of worship remain shut. apparently while protests are now permissible, prayer is still too dangerous. >> i'll just let you comment on that. >> well, i think the senator is very familiar with the white house's reopening plan. it's a phased reopening plan. it follows data and science. the president was there when it was presented by dr. birx and dr. fauci. and we are following a phased reopening plan in washington, d.c. and we are in phase one. we're reopening our city safely and according to the science. now, first amendment protests and large gatherings are not the same. and that's why we don't see our cities opened up to all of the massive events. now, in the united states -- >> and very quickly -- >> -- the people can protest. >> yeah, very quickly before i let you go, the d.c. city council has toughened policies on officer hirings and discipline. this is part of the police reforms across the country. the emergency legislation, including a ban on the use of rubber bullets or chemical irritants. it passed with a veto proof majority yesterday, despite you urging lawmakers to slow down and hold a hearing. do you support those reforms? >> i will sign the emergency legislation that our council passed. and i will ask them to make sure that my agencies and the public have time to weigh in on other measures that are included in the emergency before the permanent takes place. >> mayor muriel bowser, thank you very much. apologies for the technical difficulties. thank you. up next, the primary election catastrophe in georgia. election catastrophe in georgia. usaa was made for right now. and right now, is a time for action. so, for a second time we're giving members a credit on their auto insurance. because it's the right thing to do. we're also giving payment relief options to eligible members so they can take care of things like groceries before they worry about their insurance or credit card bills. right now is the time to take care of what matters most. like we've done together, so many times before. discover 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behr. exclusively at the home depot. welcome back. it was utter chaos for georgia voters in yesterday's primary election. as the "atlanta journal-constitution" summed it up, "complete meltdown." one official told reporters everything that could happen or go wrong has gone wrong so far. that includes new voting machines that were either missing or not working. polling sites failing to open on time and running out of backup ballots. and fewer polling places and a shortage of workers because of the pandemic. that led to massive lines with people waiting up to six hours to cast their vote, especially in largely african-american communities. despite all that, people were willing to wait it out even in the heat and pouring rain. you , you know, voter outreach person in the country. even you were talking about and, you know, saying that even you were having challenges in terms of making sure that, you know, as you looked at that vote, it did not look like it was going along -- either it was planned to be wrong, or it was just not being done right. you tweeted about your own voting experience. lebron james responded to it. let me read his tweet. everyone is talking about how do we fix this? they say go out and vote. what about asking if how we vote is also structurally racist. the tweet he was responding to was by you, latasha, that says three hours to vote today in georgia. and then drove over to predominantly white vote polling site at atl suburbs. i came over to this side of town, white folks are strolling in. on my side of the town, we brought stadium chairs. what is going on in georgia in your view? >> it was so clear to me. i was shocked to be honest. i was shocked at what i saw. there were no tents, no water, no preparation, because there seemed like there was no concern that they would have problems there. however, on the south side, what we saw is many advocacy groups, because we knew there would be problems. to the extent which they were, we had no idea it would be a colossal failure, particularly in light that we had a pandemic. so i think that's something really awkward about what is happening right now. there's something that there is an intentionality around it. that the state spent $102 million on purchasing new machines, but yet we heard the same old problems. not enough machines, problem that we started receiving around -- people didn't have -- there were reports that some of the machines ran out of paper, that the scanner you were putting your ballot is was not working. so this kind of investment for the state, and the machines not only didn't get better, but it was worse. a group of edadvocacy organizations said the last voter was at 12:36 a.m. technically that's wednesday. so what was really interesting is here is a process, the secretary of state had complete authority over oversight. his job is to make sure there are effective elections. he failed miserably. so to have the audacity to say he's going to launch an investigation and blame it on the poll workers, who calmed us down to be able to accommodate us. it's really interesting, because it reminds me of this republican strategy they continue to use, where they defleshgct the blamed say that it's someone else, when squarely, he has one responsibility. and that is to oversee and to make sure there is an efficient and effective election process. and he failed miserably. >> and you know, this sounds exactly like the experience in florida, where the governor turns around, the secretary of state says well, it's the fault of the local democratic elected officials. we'll replace them, blame them. it is just similar to florida. the brennan center released a report that found the 2018 -- in 2018, voters of color waited longer to vote than white voters. latino voters waited almost 46% longer. i want each of you to comment on donald trump. this is a bit of a turn, but as women who come from the south, i'm curious to see what your response is to trump's tweet that he will not allow the changing of confederate names of u.s. army bases. he tweeted, my administration will not even consider the renaming of these -- he called them magnificent and fabled military installations, our history, bla, bla, bla. i don't have to read the rest of it. your thoughts, latosh snarvegs >> i'll just say a couple of things. one, he has -- he has all of the -- what points to be a fascist. secondly, it's not his -- his days are numbered. so i think ultimately, his days are numbered, and it speaks to how racist he is. it speaks to how he's insensitive to what is happening in this country. there's a conversation where there are uprisings in 50 states in this country, yet he comes out with this kind of rhetoric, but his days are numbered. >> very quickly, keisha lance bottoms, we are running out of time, but i want to welcome back. according to data from "the new york times," new cases of the coronavirus are increasing in 20 states. more alarming, however, is that according to "the washington post," "hospitalizations in at least nine states have been on the rise since memorial day. with a handful of states also nearing bed capacity." this comes as the total number of americans who have tested positive has now surpassed 2 million. and yet, as politico points out, the white house has gone silent amid this ongoing crisis. the coronavirus task force scaled back its once daily internal meeting and gathering twice per week. i'm joined now by dr. joseph fair. doctor, great to see you. very relieved to see you. i need to ask first how you're doing. i know you're also recovering from covid-19. so let me ask you how you're doing. >> i'm doing well. i'm three weeks out. the first week was kind experie. but three weeks out, i'm more or less back to normal. i have been very lucky. i have been out exercising and testing my lung capacity, and i seem to be okay. >> yeah. you might actually be the $6 million man because you have already been through ebola and survived. we will have to look into that and see if you might be that guy. does it worry you when you look at all of these scenes of protests, of the church services. there have been three for george floyd, and you see all these people gathered, some with masks, some without. do you worry that this could become another, you know, two weeks from now we'll talk about more people experiencing what you did. >> absolutely. we always see two weeks later, right? that's where we see timing-wise when everyone was exposed and what happens. so i think two weeks later is when we'll know, obviously, if we're going to see more cases. but as you noted, we've seen increasing cases in 20 states, and that's just 20 now. but as the country continues to open up around different parts of the country and we relax social distancing, we've got protests, as you mentioned, church services, all these people coming together. we don't see any decline in the virus so far. so we haven't seen that seasonal dip we had hoped for at least as of yet. so right now we're seeing at least a steady rise and then we're going to see more i think with these mask gatherings. >> we already know that per nbc news in washington, d.c., the d.c. based national guard members who were forced to go out and respond to the protests, some of them have now tested positive for covid-19. we have even donald trump's own task force report that the number of -- they warned governors of covid spikes tied to the protests. so that is definitely concerning. >> yes. >> what can people do if they are taking advantage of these protests that they're not dying down? what should people be doing? >> well, first of all, if you are going to go physically out to the protests yourselves, rather than participating on the online platforms, make sure you are doing the masks and doing everything we talked about. looking at the scene you are playing right now, there is no social distancing there. but at least protect yourself as much as you can, if you are going to choose to be out there. but know by choosing to be out there, you are at a much greater risk than you would be if you were social distancing and saying six feet or more away and doing the things we talked about previously. >> there is a story that detained migrants say they were forced to clean covid-infected ice facility in arizona. so the kind of abuse that's now being tied to it. you have the meat packing workers who were forced to go in. you know, what do you make of those kinds of stories? >> you know, honestly, globally, that is the pattern with what we see with these kind of emerging infectious disease. they're almost always tied to socio-economic status. poor people always get infected more because they have to do the hard jobs. they have to do the jobs that nobody else wants to do. when people have the privilege of staying at home and working from home, these people were still going to work, they were still cutting your meat, they were still cleaning the facilities and to forth. so that being said, it is always the poorer that are going to suffer more from infectious disease. >> yeah. yeah. and it doesn't help if people are being abused as they are migrants and being detained and don't have a choice. very glad you are back. >> likewise. >> thank you so much. and up next, some good news courtesy of my favorite dictionary. stay with us. stay with us you hear that? that's your weathered deck, crying for help. while you do nothing, it's inviting those geese over for target practice. today, let's stain. cause if you stain your deck today, they can't stain your deck tomorrow. behr. exclusively at the home depot. there he is. oh, wow. you're doing, uh, you're doing really great with the twirling. dad, if you want to talk, i have a break at 3:00. okay, okay. i'm going. i'm gone. like -- like i wasn't here. [ horn honks ] keep -- keep doing it, buddy. switch to progressive and you can save hundreds. you know, like the sign says. switch to progressive and you can save hundreds. michael vasquez! come over here. i've heard such good things about you, your company. well, i wouldn't have done any of it without you. without this place. this is for you. michael, you didn't have to... and, we're going to need some help with the rest. you've worked so hard to achieve so much. perhaps it's time to partner with someone who knows you and your business well enough to understand what your wealth is really for. one last note for tonight. you know, we're all getting used to hearing nothing but bad, bad and terrible news. but let's end tonight with some good news, courtesy of one of my favorite, favorite entities in the world, meriam-webster. webster's will change their definition of racism. kennedy had a series of disagreements in the wake of george floyd's murder on the definition of racism, including people quoting the dictionary definition at her to try and talk her down. in a facebook post she wrote, it's not just disliking someone because of their race. this current fight we are in is evidence of that, lives are at stake because of the systems of oppression that go hand-in-hand with racism. webster's current definition of racism is a brief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities. she found that to be inadequate, so she e-mailed meriam-webster and the editors e-mailed her back. they have agreed to update the definition and to add that racism isn't just ugly feelings or feelings of superiority, it is a doctrine designed to put those beliefs into policy and practice with the intent of oppressing a group of people. lots of americans, frankly, lots of white americans are having discussions that they never thought they would have to have about race and racism and whether and how they have played a part in a 400-year system of white supremacy in this country. that includes a reflexive use of the police to control and, yes, to oppress black and brown people to keep white americans from feeling afraid. it is an issue that there is a lot more agreement about across racial lines today, and there is also more agreement that there has been certainly in my lifetime that this is indeed a crisis and that that tipping point was reached, thanks to an unintentional martyr named george floyd. the 22-year-old who helped make this change possible, you can tune into the rachel maddow show tonight at 9:00 p.m. eastern. thanks so much for being with us. don't go anywhere. "all in" with chris hayes is up next. nascar bans the confederate flag, and the president defends the confederacy. it's america 2020. the coronavirus still raging. 21 states now seeing a surge in cases and trump's own task force raising new alarms. the pandemic that hasn't gone anywhere. plus, stacy abrams is here on george's spectacular voting failure. and heather mcgee on the seismic shift in american views on racism when "all in" starts right now. good evening from new york. i'm chris hayes. the coronavirus is not gone, and worst of that in some places it looks to be roaring back. things have gotten much better in new york and new jersey and many others. but in many states things have gotten much worse. and you wouldn't know that if you listened to the white house. donald trump does not like bad news, he doesn't like to
in new york and new jersey and many others. but in many states things have gotten much worse. and you wouldn't know that if you listened to the white house. donald trump does not like bad news, he doesn't like to confront reality, which is why he told us the cases which just crossed two million were going down to zero. and crucially and perhaps more importantly, donald trump just has a painfully short attention span. we talked about the fact the president abandoned any pretense of caring of spread of the virus and over a hundred thousand deaths. he got bored a month ago when he could no longer use coronavirus briefings as political rallies and just flitted on to the next thing. you see it in everything he does. just today amidst all of the unrest, crisis, he was complaining fox news cut away from a congressional hearing he was watching at 11:00 a.m. on a weekday. this afternoon he threaded together a truly bazaar argument highlighting a history of winning, victory and freedom, all attributes not typically associated with the confederacy. donald trump as the attention span of a fruit fly, but the thing about it is the virus is still there. it's not gone. there is still a pandemic to manage and things are getting worse in parts of the country and nobody at the federal level appears to be managing it. do you remember dr. anthony fauci? yesterday he popped up to say, hey, it isn't over. >> now we have something that indeed turns out to be my worst nightmare. if you just think about it, in a period of four months, it has devastated the world. like, oh, my goodness, when is it going to end? it really is very complicated. so we're just at almost the beginning of really understanding. >> we are almost at the beginning of really understanding the virus. meanwhile, the cdc, centers for disease control, is just totally absent as far as we could tell in this time of need. earlier today i had to stop and think very hard, concentrate even to remember the name of the man who is supposedly in charge. his name is robert redfield. when was the last time we saw him? the white house coronavirus task force continues to fade as a second wave of the virus is emerging. in recent weeks, the group has metaphor mali just three times. its members have begun drafting a final after-action report, as if the action is over, highlighting the president's response is expected to be completed in the upcoming weeks. there is no after because the pandemic is not gone. new cases are skyrocketing in arizona after the state reopened without a pattern of declining cases and without following the white house's own cdc recommendations. arizona's former health director who was on this show last night warned the state could need a new stay at home order less than a month after reopening. but arizona is not the only state where the pandemic is still raging. this is what new cases look like in texas. "the washington post" reports the state has seen a 36% increase in new cases since memorial with a record, and this is key because this takes out the testing question, right, a record 2,056 current hospitalizations as of early tuesday afternoon. that's actually the largest spike in the country. right behind it is north carolina. this right here is the day where the state relaxed its stay-at-home order, and it did not look like a great idea even then. today north carolina had a record high coronavirus hospitalizations with more than 1,000 new cases. and as dr. anthony fauci referred, there is so much we don't know how the virus behaves. there's so much we are learning. we know it is highly contagious. but certain situations doomed for disaster also turned out okay. we all saw this footage of people crowded into the swimming pools in the lake of the ozarks in missouri. that seemed like a recipe for disaster, especially after it was confirmed at least one infected person was there. but somehow there appear to be no new confirmed cases from the lake of the ozarks crowds which is good. two hair stylists tested positive, exposing nearly 140 people to it. but none of the 46 people who took tests tested positive. it is possible because the salon, to its credit, required people to wear masks and used other preventative measures such as separating salon chairs and staggering appointments. a new study from the u.k. says widespread mask wearing could be a huge part of the answer. quote, the study found if people wear masks wherever they are in public it is twice as effective in reducing the r value than if masks are only worn after appear. if everyone wears a mask fewer will get the disease. that appears to be increasingly the case, right? grounded in the science as we have learned it. it just seems really simple. it is why it is so crazy, counter productive, insane, cruel to be wearing masks a cultural wedge issue. we should not see these images on the streets of new york city where the protesters basically all have masks and none of the cops do. why? the president of the united states should not be mocking reporters for wearing face masks and making fun of joe biden for wearing one because not only is the president given up on helping the coronavirus, he gave a long time ago. he's actually making it worse. we're staring down the first real post lockdown outbreaks right now. not only has the president completely ignored the virus, he's steered people away from taking the necessary steps to protect themselves. oklahoma, florida, texas and arizona, which has an outbreak that looks to be spiraling out of control as well as north carolina at an appropriate time. states that are not doing so well as it relates to the virus. here's the thing. this is the new normal. this is the new normal in terms of the virus and in terms of the administration we have. we need to ask ourselves how are we going to deal with them? one of the best informed people i know about the coronavirus and what it's doing around the country, professor of global health and the director of the harvard global health institute. i want to start with something you said, i think earlier today, in terms of estimates that the modeling you are working on suggests we might have 200,000 total deaths, another 90,000 or so deaths by the end of the summer in the u.s. is that correct? >> yes. so the best estimates out there, chris, are that we're going to hit 200,000 some time during the month of september. if you think about where we are, 800 to 1,000 people are dying every day. that's about 25,000 to 30,000 a month. go out three months and you understand by september we will cross that mark and the pandemic won't even be done by then. it is unbelievable to me that we have just become immune to this level of suffering and have just come to accept it as a reality when it doesn't have to be. >> well, i think part of that, though, part of it is that when you look at the national data and aggregate, it looks like we're moving in the right direction because so much of the hospitalizations, infections and deaths were driven by the new york metro area which has spiked and really come down quite rapidly, it could be confusing. but what goes through your mind when you look at texas and arizona particularly, particularly arizona because that -- the spike in arizona looks real bad to me. >> yeah. it looks like even potential growth. if you don't jump on it, at some point you will be forced with only one option, which is stay at home and shut the economy down. it's a very scarey picture, and that's what we were able to avoid for the country. now we will see individual states confronting it, and they will have to ask themselves, do they have an appetite for shutting down again. >> that to me is a really important question because there is containment and mitigation. containment means you have a small enough number of cases and capacity enough to test and trace that you can kind of play whack a mole with people that are getting the virus. you can get them quarantined, you can try to keep them away from people. when the numbers get big enough which is what happened in the u.s. and new york and many countries you just can't contain it. you have to mitigate which means shut things down. that emergency brake lever doesn't seem an available political option in these places. >> yeah. and we don't want to get to a point where that becomes the only option, right? >> right. >> but what happens is if the hospitals get overwhelmed, if doctors and nurses start getting sick, if large numbers of people start dying, then that becomes a political option again. who wants to get there? why do we want that as our strategy? >> i have to say the silver lining i keep coming back to as i walk around with my mask, which i don't like personally, but i wear it all the time, is that it does really seem increasingly masks really can be a key here. when you look at the experience that japan has had particularly and hong kong and taiwan and other cases where mask wearing is almost ubiquitous that maybe if we all wear masks we can really do a lot by just putting this stupid thing on our faces, we could have a tremendous effect. >> yeah. you know, the evidence on this has really been changing and is getting stronger and better day by day. and what i say to people, people who bring up this issue of freedom, i'm like, you know what gives you freedom to get back to life and not get sick and die, wearing a mask, maintaining social distancing, having testing and wearing a mask. it is striking to me that we have seen freedom as the freedom not to wear a mask, not freedom to get our lives back, and that's part i think of what masks get you. >> we should say that this study says we could be looking at reducing infections by, you know, getting our beneath one, which is the key. if you just have 50% of people wearing masks. i guess the last question for you is about the president's rallies. obviously, we have seen huge protests across the country. a lot of mask wearing, but not always. it is outdoors as opposed to indoors, but people are pretty packed together. there is lots of concern about what that means. what do you think about a big indoor rally, particularly if it is the case that not wearing a mask becomes the performance of one's political identity? >> yeah. you know, in terms of the protests, while i support the protesters and what they are protesting, i have been worried. but they do have the advantage of most people are wearing masks. it's outside. i think being outside is also a really big benefit. large indoor rallies without masks, i feel like they're asking for more outbreaks and really big ones and i don't know what the president would subject his own supporters to this. >> yeah, it's madness. i know they have done outdoor rallies before. but we'll see whether they actually do that. thank you for making the time. >> thanks, chris. of all the states facing spikes, this chart from arizona tells quite the story. the curve there was never really flattened. arizona's daily tally has spiked so high the state sent hospitals a letter urging them to activate emergency plans. joining me now someone who has been doing great reporting in arizona, a health care reporter for the arizona republic. first just give us a snapshot from where you stand of what the discussion is in the state right now about what is happening with the virus in arizona. >> well, i think, first of all, my colleagues and i first started noticing a spike a couple of weeks ago, and we have been trying to get the state to say that there is an increased community spread. we have been able to get some experts to say that. so far the arizona department of health services has not actually said that. they have been telling people not to panic but to practice social distancing and other measures. however, the state's largest health system has started to take a lead in this role. they held a press conference on friday and said these numbers are really concerning and people need to wear masks and do not get complacent about social distancing. >> that's interesting. you're talking about there's the public health apparatus of the state of arizona and then a private hospital system, right, or a health care providing system and it's the latter that has called the press conference to say we're worried. >> they did. and also the maricopa county of health also called a press conference. they both did that a day after the governor and our state department had a press conference, which i think that banner health and maricopa county didn't feel answered all the questions that they had and all the messaging that they wanted to get out. >> one of the things we've seen is political leaders not want it to be the case when there's an outbreak, they send a message down the chain it's not that bad it's going to be fine until it's too late. we've seen this replay over and over. i guess what's the tenor of the message from the governor and the folks in sort of political leadership about where this state is at? is it don't worry this is under control? >> yeah, that's the message that i'm hearing from the state health department. and i know one of our congressmen, he just sent a letter to governor ducey saying, look, you've got to have more leadership on this. you've got to tell people what's going on because we don't feel we're getting enough direction, and he pointed out some of the numbers from recent days. which today we had 1,500 new cases which was the second highest daily new cases that were reported. so there is some of that going on. i mean, his was the first letter i've seen, but i get the sense from the state they're saying, you know, don't panic. and even the letter that dr. chris, our state health director sent on saturday, they said to me, well, that was really a reiteration of what we sent in march, and we weren't sending it from a position of panic. >> so just to be clear on the data here, because there is some states where testing capacities increase tremendously and texas for a while has sort of said, look, we're testing a lot more, that's why you are seeing more cases, arizona has a bunch of metrics, not just positive cases, all the numbers appear to line up to show that there is an outbreak happening. >> sure. and when you see increased positive cases, that could be due to the fact that we're doing a lot more testing. it was really hard to get a test in arizona at the beginning, as it was in many parts of the country. but a lot of the indicators we're seeing are not just because of increased testing. when you have -- you're reaching record levels of people in the hospital for suspected and confirmed covid, that's not due to increased testing. when you are seeing increases in the percent of positive cases, that trend should be going down. it should not be going up, regardless of how much testing you are doing. >> final question, you talked about banner health, which is a private health care center sounding the alarm. how much are you hearing alarm or worry from hospitals, particularly icus, things like that, medical providers? >> well, banner health has really been a leader on that. they have been very candid with the press, anyway, telling us what their capacities are. they actually reached capacity on saturday, which is the external lung machine. and it's really helping us as the press try to tell the public what's going on. so that's been really helpful that they're doing that. >> yeah. that's interesting. private data sort of a bedrock of trying to get our hands around the shape. thank you very much for making some time for us. >> thanks for having me. >> up next, stacey abrams on the election catastrophe in georgia, what it portends for november and what could be done about it right after this. working to care for all of us. at novartis, we promise to do our part. as always, we're doing everything we can to help keep cosentyx accessible and affordable. if you have any questions at all, call us, email us, visit us online. we're here to help support you when you need us. take care, and be well. to learn more, call one eight four four cosentyx or visit cosentyx.com bbut what if you couldg do better than that? like adapt. discover. deliver, in new ways, to new customers. what if you could come back stronger? faster. better. at comcast business, we want to help you not just bounce back, but bounce forward. and now, with one of our best offers ever, we're committed to helping you do just that. get a powerful and reliable internet and voice solution for only $29.95 a month for three months. call or go online today. this morning, the day after georgia's statewide election which had been delayed so they had some time to prepare for it, this was the front page of the atlanta journal-constitution. complete melt down. voting places were not working, people waited in line for up to seven hours to vote. some voters just gave up and went home. one can hardly blame them. at one point, a dry erase board in the secretary of state's office showed 20 separate counties in georgia where judges had to step in to extend voting hours because the lines were so long. the co-founder of black voters matter was in union city, georgia and tweeted the last voter walked out at 12:37 a.m. then they called the police on us. but we told them we would not leave until we voted. voting lines were so bad yesterday that people in line were organizing themselves. >> they say they have escalated this particular issue to the secretary of state's office, but we know how that goes. so what we need you to do in the meantime because this is what we call voter suppression, we need you all to call election protection hotline. you may get a voice mail when you call. please leave a message. >> georgia's republican governor brian kemp has so far stayed silent on the recent problems with voting according to the associated press. the secretary of state put the blame on local officials. even though georgia under the previous secretary of state has been notorious for making it more difficult to vote. so much so it's led to multiple lawsuits. in fact, one of the organizations that sued the state ran against kemp for governor in 2018, stacey abrams, author of the new book, and stacey abrams joins me now. it's great to have you and i thought maybe we'd start with your own story. i saw you had your own story of voting and the difficulties of it yesterday. can you tell us what happened to you? >> absolutely. so because of the pandemic, because we were encouraging people to vote by mail because that was the safest way to vote, not only for the voter but also for voters who didn't have a choice, i attempted to vote by mail. i eventually got my ballot. i filled it out and when i got ready to put it in the return envelope, it was sealed shut. i then attempted to steam it open because i watch too many mystery shows. it did not work and so yesterday i went to stand in line with fellow georgians to cast my ballot. >> it's been remarkable -- kemp has not said anything about, and the lines from the secretary of state has been -- this was on the various precincts. this was on the counties. they screwed this up. i want to read you a quote from the statewide voting implementation manager who said the following. these are unfortunate. they are not issues of the equipment but counties engaging in poor planning, limited training and failures of leadership. what do you think about that? >> that he misunderstands or deliberately is indifferent to the needs of voters. the secretary of state decided to purchase $107 million worth of new equipment. he was responsible for the implementation of these changes. in fact, he used $400,000 that was allocated by the federal government to help with the implementation of elections and he used it to be an advertisement of how good he was because he got these machines. the constitution of georgia puts the responsibility for the administration of elections on the secretary of state. the counties are the local instruments, but the secretary of state is responsible. and even the challenge of implementing new equipment isn't new. in 2002, democrat kathy cox had the same responsibility. she provided staffing, training, mailed instructions to every single voter, had emergency stand-by, had 100 extra secretary of state staffers ready to help. none of those things were available. instead what we saw were inoperable machines, miscommunication, failed training and failed direction, all of which lay squarely at the feet of the secretary of state. >> there is a question here about incompetence versus malice, obviously, and there is a long history here both in georgia in recent memory going back to a very, very long time going back to reconstruction. the brennen center has studied this issue. it shows that long wait times disproportionately affect black and latino voters. and a new york times columnist put it this way, an election where people are waiting for 7 or 8 hours to cast a ballot is not a free and fair election. do you agree with that? >> absolutely. we know in the state of georgia you do not have the right to pay when you are voting. you do not have the right to be paid. which means people sacrifice a days wage to try and cast a vote. and these are largely communities that are working class, working poor. they're not making a lot to begin with. to cast a ballot, it's a poll tax. but we know even more that you raise the question of incompetence versus malice. in georgia it's both. there is a malfeasance that is permeating the entirety of voting system and exacerbated by the incompetence of the leadership that refuses to number one do its job but two doesn't seem to understand what the job is. that's what we face in georgia. but let's be clear. this didn't just happen in georgia. it also happened in south carolina and nevada to a lessor extent and certainly without the clownish behavior of the secretary of state. but across the country, we are seeing this combination of incompetence and malfeasance putting voters of color at risk of not being heard in our democracy. >> there's also been in iowa, the iowa state senate today wanted to block the iowa secretary of state, the republican, from mailing out absentee ballots to all the voters, something that's happened under the republican secretary of state of ohio and michigan. it is not a partisan issue. what do you make of this increasingly partisan attack? right now, our first block of the show was the pandemic hasn't gone anywhere and we're not in cold and flu season and we're not in the fall when people expect it to be worse. >> we know that it's going to be worse. we know that people want to be heard. we are in the midst of a public health crisis, an economic collapse, a deep distrust of our justice system and we have a voting system that republicans are doing their level best to make as unusable as possible. republicans have been fighting across this country to fight back against expansion or at least access to voting rights. but we also know that republican leaders know better. they use absentee ballots. they know that vote by mail works. they are not concerned about fraud with vote by mail. they're concerned about participation and the reason we see people pushing back is that in the state of iowa, there is a real strong likelihood that democrats will outperform republicans, so this is the best way to constrain their participation. what we saw happen in georgia was that more democrats voted in this election than voted in previous primaries, including in 2016. >> interesting. >> and this record turnout looks different, looks like disaster for them and so they're going to do their level best to limit who can actually have a voice in our elections. >> you raised the turnout yesterday. georgia has two contested senate seats, two contested senate primaries yesterday, along with the presidential primary which had been delayed. there is polling showing the president and joe biden essentially tied in georgia or around there. election day in georgia is going to be bonkers just at a turn-out level. two senate seats and also the presidential. you've got to imagine that any competent administrator would have to be planning for an enormous turn-out in november. >> which is why it's so dangerous that brad is denying responsibility. the resources for scaling up our elections, both in georgia and around the country, will have to come from the hero's act. it will have to come from the federal government. but if the secretary of state is not intending to use those resources to help the local officials meet the moment, then we know our elections are going to collapse. we have seen what voter suppression can do in georgia. and i know that the turn-out in this upcoming election is going to dwarf the record turn-out we had in 2018. 2018 we had the single largest turn out of democratic voters in voter history. that number is going to be much higher in 2020 because recovery from the pandemic, recovery from the systemic injustices that we saw that took the life of ahmaud arbery, george floyd and breonna taylor. people know if we don't solve this problem in this election, we do not have a future for many people in this country. >> stacey abrams, thank you so much for taking some time tonight. >> thank you for having me. coming up as george floyd's brother testified before congress today, tonight a pretty stunning development in the killing of breonna taylor. that's next. ext. ♪ this virus is testing all of us. and it's testing the people on the front lines of this fight most of all. so abbott is getting new tests into their hands, delivering the critical results they need. and until this fight is over, we...will...never...quit. because they never quit. kentucky finally released an incident reporting from the fatal shooting of 26-year-old breonna taylor. it's a four-page report. it is almost completely blank and it lists taylor's injuries as none despite the fact she was shot at least eight times by police. justice for breonna taylor has become a rallying cry for protesters around the country as the nation grapples with the aftermath of three high profile killings of african-americans in repeat months. arbery, george floyd, both of which were captured on tape. and one that was not captured on tape. and that's taylor in louisville. the facts surrounding her death appear to be as every bit outrageous as the ones we've seen on video. she was an emergency room technician. she also worked as a certified emt and she was a front line worker facing the beginning of the coronavirus crisis. and in the early morning hours of march 13th, he was at home with her boyfriend kenny walker and they were asleep in bed when they heard a loud banging at the door. police officials claim the detectives at taylor's door announced their presence, but walker and neighbors say they never heard anyone identify themselves. when no one opened the door, detectives used a battering ram to force their way in. police documents say. walker, the boyfriend, called 911 believing their house was being invaded. why would he not? someone had just barged in. and he fired one round of warning to scare away the invader. police responded with a hail of bullets, according to walker's attorney, firing more than 22 rounds. at least 8 of which struck breonna taylor. the officers were there to execute a no knock search warrant based on police's belief that a suspect in a narcotics investigation used taylor's home address to receive mail, keep money. well, no drugs were found in taylor's apartment and neither had any criminal history or drug convictions. the three responding officers are all on administrative reassignment pending investigation as is the officer who requested the warrant. but breonna taylor's family and activists are pushing for more as she would have turned 27 years old last week. >> she literally was the sweetest person ever. >> the car rides was fun with my sister. i have friends when my sister passed away they were telling me they admired our relationship. they wished they and their siblings were like that. it is so weird that her birthday is this friday and she is not getting on my last nerves talking about does this match, i've got a hair appointment, you feed to do this for me, it's so weird. she's not here. t here so what's going on? i'm a talking dog. the other issue. oh... i'm scratching like crazy. you've got some allergic itch with skin inflammation. apoquel can work on that itch in as little as 4 hours, whether it's a new or chronic problem. and apoquel's treated over 7 million dogs. nice. and... the talking dog thing? is it bothering you? no... itching like a dog is bothering me. until dogs can speak for themselves, you have to. when allergic itch is a problem, ask for apoquel. apoquel is for the control of itch associated with allergic dermatitis and the control of atopic dermatitis in dogs. do not use apoquel in dogs less than 12 months old or those with serious infections. apoquel may increase the chance of developing serious infections and may cause existing parasitic skin infestations or pre-existing cancers to worsen. do not use in breeding, pregnant, or lactating dogs. most common side effects are vomiting and diarrhea. feeling better? i'm speechless. thanks for the apoquel. awww. that's what friends are for. ask your veterinarian for apoquel. next to you, apoquel is a dog's best friend. george called for help, and he was ignored. please listen to the call i'm making to you now, to the calls of our family and the calls ringing out the streets across the world. people of all backgrounds, genders and races have come together to demand change. honor them. honor george. and make the necessary changes that make law enforcement the solution and not the problem. >> that was george floyd's brother, philonise floyd, appearing before the house judiciary committee today. it is the first congressional hearing since floyd's killing set off a wave of national protests. the hearing was designed to spark a police reform bill that would, among measures ban chokeholds and no knock warrants like the one used in breonna taylor's case in drug cases. senate republicans are also working on a bill led by the senate's only black republican, tim scott of south carolina, who is suggesting his bill will not include some of the strongest measures sought by democrats in the house. the white house says the president may announce measures to address policing tomorrow. members of his administration today were out in front of cameras denying systemic racism even exists. >> i don't believe there's systemic racism in the u.s. i'm not going to go into a long riff on it. i do not. >> at all in the u.s.? >> i do not. >> i will say it again. i do not. >> does the president feel that there is systemic racism in law enforcement? >> the president has been very clear there are injustices in society. >> he doesn't think there is systemic racism. >> he believes most of our police officers are good, hard working people and there is a lot of evidence of that and he has great faith in our police department. >> i'm joined now by david cicilline, member of the house judiciary committee that held that hearing today and the mayor of the city of providence. what did you view of the goal of today's hearing? >> the goal of today's hearing, chris, was to really lay out the importance of moving forward, some real reforms to improve police accountability to ensure that law enforcement is working for the people of this country in a fair and equitable way and we hold police officers accountable when they engage in it. it was an opportunity to hear from mr. floyd's brother who gave powerful testimony about his brother's death and really called us to action saying, his name is well known. your names will be well known too if you move forward with bold action. and we heard from experts and civil rights advocates and folk who is have studied law enforcement in significants ways about what are the best ways to legislation, which i think is most interesting around which there is a little bit of sort of cross ideological consensus is ending qualified immunity as it's been interpreted by the supreme court. it's a doctrine that has been interpreted by the supreme court to essentially make it almost impossible to sue a police officer or a department for a conduct even that's wildly egregious or unconstitutional. how important do you think that is? do you think that's something you might find traction? tim scott today said he's not interested in that, but other republicans seem to be. >> i think it is something we should find traction with. this is sort of the centerpiece accountability, police officers who engage in misconduct that resulted in citizens being harmed and sometimes killed, they have to be held accountable. the way the court has interpreted that doctrine that they essentially created basically immunizes police officers from being held accountable for even gross misconduct. and you can't have a system that enjoys the respect of the american people if misconduct can occur without any accountability. and, so, i think that's an important part of the legislation as well as the banning chokeholds, as well as the provisions to end racial profiling, as well as the training pieces, the registry for police officers who have misconduct. this is a moment that the country expects us to act and enact meaningful reforms for that will respond to the demands the people are making for real change in our country. >> it seems to me there is sort of two conversations happening in america. one is a conversation among i think a majority of americans of all races about the sort of spectrum of ways of attacking the problem, reform versus more radical solutions. then there is the president and, you know, sort of the kind of hard core who don't really want to have the conversation. do you see any openness among house republicans? we know the senate is working on something. do you see your house republican colleagues to engage on this issue? >> well, it's interesting. the hearing today was really revealing. many of my republican colleagues acknowledged the seriousness of this issue, expressed a willingness to respond in a meaningful way and to work with us to move forward with a response. they expressed commitments to mr. floyd that they would take this effort seriously. and, so, you know, i think it shows the power of the people in this country, that people all across america are marching and demanding change. young people, old people, people of every background. and i think my republican colleagues are feeling that. this is a moment, a historic opportunity to respond to a problem that has existed for generations in this country, the scourge of racism, of disparate treatment in the criminal justice system and policing is really a stain on the soul of our country. and my republican colleagues i think today at least used some language that shows they're open to it. of course, we will mark the bill up next week, and we'll have an opportunity to sort of test how sincere they are about doing something about this by how they vote. >> final question for you. i noticed in my reporting on this issue for years that politicians, particularly democrat politicians, african-american, white, latino sound very different as mayors when running a police force. the providence police force has a very, very spotty if not ugly history. back in 2010 there were people who wanted you to get rid of the chief police, calling for him to resign, described marred by corruption and mismanagement. >> when i took over the providence police department, it was a department that was under a patterns and practice investigation by the department of justice. crime was on the increase. the community was at war with the police and people had really lost confidence in the department. i brought on a new chief. we brought down the crime rates to the lowest crime rate in 40 years. we opened nine new community substations. we wept from being underinvestigationed which i inherited to a fully accredited police department. and the police really became fully integrated into the community. that he served on housing association boards and we opened nine neighborhood substations. so i really saw that the ability to transform a department with the community, the community-based police department with extraordinary results. it is hard work, but it is central to what you have to do to make sure cities are successful. >> thanks for being with me today. >> my pleasure. coming up, heather mcgee on new polling that shows nationwide protests are having incredible impacts. the stunning announcement as well from nascar. they're banning the confederate flag. we're going to talk about those things next. e going to talk abo things next. there are times when our need to connect really matters. to keep customers and employees in the know. to keep business moving. comcast business is prepared for times like these. powered by the nation's largest gig-speed network. to help give you the speed, reliability, and security you need. tools to manage your business from any device, anywhere. and a team of experts - here for you 24/7. we've always believed in the power of working together. that's why, when every connection counts... you can count on us. this is a live scene in portsmouth, virginia. there is an impromptu protest outside of a confederate monument that is in that town. virginia is the home to more confederate monuments than any state in the union. of course they dot the landscape of america. there's even many u.s. army bases and other bases named after them. there's something incredible happening with american public opinion. just today nascar, an institution for many in rural white america, an institution that has struggled with expanding and diversifying its base, announced it would ban confederate flags from its events and properties. saying the presence of confederate flag at nascar events runs contrary to our commitment to providing a welcoming environment. the display of the confederate flag will be prevented from all nascar events and properties. in the wake of the most significant street protest in at least a generation perhaps longer public opinion appears to be moving rapidly in the direction of the protesters. just look at this graph from "the new york times" upshot. support for black lives matter increased as much as it had over the previous two years. here to talk about this someone who wrote a book on this topic, the sum of us, what racism costs everyone and how we can prosper together," she did a ted talk last year about how people understand racism and what it means for them. heather mcghee. he heather, there was so much tension and worry in the wake of the protests when they started from people, particularly i think like white liberals who were like oh, god, it's going to help donald trump. oh, no, no, no. and it is really -- it's like a case study in street protests and public opinion. i myself am actually kind of shocked by the data. what do you see happening here? >> i think we see a few things happening. one, i think we were primed for this moment by the coronavirus. by a lot of the american mythology being laid bare. one the idea that we can be relentlessly upwardly mobile and that white folks have sort of their grasp on the american dream. when the economy shut down and people realized that they were one or two paychecks away from destitution and the government may not be there for them, there was a sense of vulnerability and physical vulnerability. as we saw, the coronavirus made people lean into their neighbors and show so much solidarity and interdependence. once you tap into that source of vulnerability, interdependence humanity and an awareness of inequality that the coronavirus has exposed you're primed for something big. and then george floyd was murdered on video, on top of the videos that we have and videos that we don't have of so many of the other acts of racism, breonna taylor, ahmaud arbery, christian, the bird watcher in new york. it was like lightning striking when you feel that electricity building up in a storm. and so that's why, i think, we have this incredible thing happening with public opinion. but it's also because of movements, because movements are powerful. the movement for black lives has been working on this day in and day out, in big street protests and in small reading circles and in fights online and in calling people in and calling people out since trayvon martin was killed. >> yeah, we're watching it. just so people know, we were watching someone take a sledgehammer to a confederate monument. this monument is sort of unnamed confederate soldiers, many of which have been torn down. they were erected as explicit memorializations of white supremacy and a victory lap over the quality that was pushed through in reconstruction. we are watching them come down in powerful moments of symbolism. the polling here, heather, you've got the last few weeks. you've also got if you look back 2011 poll on racism, how big a problem is racism for society? 21% of white people saying it's a big problem. now you've got 60% of white respondents. there's something happening. i see people caricature it or they use woke in these sort of the way they use pc in these condescending quotation marks, but there is something happening in the consciousness of white people in america about race. >> 100%. we've never had an enduring lasting change without this kind of multi racial coalition. it's so important that this consciousness change, because what am i talking about when i say consciousness. i mean our beliefs. what do we believe about the different groups of people that make up this country. we've seen consciousness change on issues like lgbtq equality and marriage equality. consciousness changed and then policy changed. we've seen in contrast policy change without consciousness change. i call to mind brown versus board of education. >> great, great point. >> you had a policy change that was resisted not ten years later by the supreme court and a backlash that was very much, i think, driven hand in hand with the rise of the new jim crow and mass incarceration where the belief and the inherent sort of goodness and innocence of black and brown children has not actually followed, and it didn't predate the court decision. we have schools that are as segregated as they were before brown. this consciousness change is going to see ripples all over the place. they're seen with the party in virginia right now saying it's time for a new america and that's what they're saying. >> that is an incredible and illuminating framework. by the way, i'm watching a black man take a sledgehammer to a monument to white supremacy erected on public land to essentially celebrate the subjugation of african-americans after a brief taste of program for equality. in fact many of the confederate monuments, i don't know the particular history of this one throughout the south were erected in the wake of brown v. board as precisely this backlash politics. in the 40 seconds we have left, do you fear the backlash politics? in the era of donald trump, people are scared of it and it always looms large. >> of course there will be a backlash but here's the question, are we going to be strong enough to defeat it, and i think we are. i think you are seeing the longest, most sustained protests in american history. there will always be a backlash, they'll always have a lot of money and a lot of the media in terms of the right-wing media, but this moral moment that we are being called to i think is stronger than any backlash. >> heather mcghee, one of my favorite people in the world to talk to always. it's wonderful to see you. thank you very much. well, long live the union as that soldier monument comes down. that is "all in" for this evening. "the 11th hour with brian williams starts right now. well, good evening once again. day one,238 now of the trump administration. 146 days until our next presidential election. protests continue unabated as george floyd's brother calls on congress to enact change and the president tries to decide where he will land as our nation faces a reckoning on policing and justice and inequality. fill low is in floyd came to lafayette square this evening marching with lawmakers in the area near the white house where federal officers last week used chemicals and clubs and horses to clear demonstrators
he told us the cases which just crossed two million were going down to zero. and crucially and perhaps more importantly, donald trump just has a painfully short attention span. we talked about the fact the president abandoned any pretense of caring of spread of the virus and over a hundred thousand deaths. he got bored a month ago when he could no longer use coronavirus briefings at political rallies and just flitted on to the next thing. you see it in everything he does. just today amidst all of the unrest, crisis, he was complaining fox news cut away from a congressional hearing he was watching at 11:00 a.m. on a weekday. this weekend, renaming military bases highlighting a history of winning, victory and freedom, all attributes not typically associated with the confederacy. donald trump as the attention span of a fruit fly, but the thing about it is the virus is still there. it's not gone. there is still a pandemic to manage and things are getting worse in parts of the country and nobody at the federal level appears to be managing it. do you remember dr. anthony fauci? yesterday he popped up to say, hey, it isn't over. >> now we have something that indeed turns out to be my worst nightmare. if you just think about it, in a period of four months, it has devastated the world. like, oh, my goodness, when is it going to end? it really is very complicated. so we're just at almost the beginning of really understanding. >> we are almost at the beginning of really understanding the virus. meanwhile, the cdc, centers for disease control, is just totally absent as far as we could tell in this time of need. earlier today i had to stop and think very hard, concentrate even to remember the name of the man who is supposedly in charge. his name is robert redfield. when was the last time we saw him? the white house coronavirus task force continues to fade as a second wave of the virus is emerging. in recent weeks, the group has metaphor mali just three times. its members have begun drafting a final after-action report, as if the action is over, highlighting the president's response is expected to be completed in the upcoming weeks. there is no after because the pandemic is not gone. new cases are skyrocketing in arizona after the state reopened without a pattern of declining cases and without following the white house's own cdc recommendations. arizona's former health director who was on this show last night warned the state could need a new stay-at-home order. this is what new cases look like in texas. "the washington post" reports the state has seen a 36% increase in new cases since memorial with a record, and this is key because this takes out the testing question, right, a record 2,056 current hospitalizations as of early tuesday afternoon. that's actually the largest spike in the country. right behind it is north carolina. this right here is the day where the state relaxed its stay-at-home order, and it did not look like a great idea even then. today north carolina had a record high coronavirus hospitalizations with more than 1,000 new cases. and as dr. anthony fauci referred, there is so much we don't know how the virus behaves. we know it is highly contagious. we all saw this footage of people crowded into the swimming pools in the lake of the to sarks in missouri. that seemed like a recipe for disaster, especially after it was confirmed at least one infected person was there. but somehow there appear to be no new cases from the lake of the ozarks crowd, which is good. two hair stylists tested positive, exposing nearly 140 people to it. but none of the 46 people who took tests tested positive. it is possible because the salon, to its credit, required people to wear masks and used other preventative measures such as separating salon chairs and staggering appointments. a new study from the u.k. says widespread mask wearing could be a huge part of the answer. if people wear masks wherever they are in public, it is twice as effect in reducing the r value than if masks are only worn after symptoms appear. if everyone wears a mask, fewer people get the disease. that appears to be increasingly the case, right? grounded in the science as we have learned it. it just seems really simple. it is why it is so crazy, counter productive, insane, cruel to be wearing masks a cultural wedge issue. we should not see these images on the streets of new york city where the protesters basically all have masks and none of the cops do. why? the president of the united states should not be mocking reporters for wearing face masks and making fun of joe biden for wearing one because not only is the president given up on helping the coronavirus. he's actually making it worse. we're staring down the first real post lockdown outbreaks right now. not only has the president completely ignored the virus, he's steered people away from taking the necessary steps to protect themselves. oklahoma, florida, texas and arizona, which has an outbreak that looks to be spiraling out of control as well as north carolina as an appropriate. states that are not doing so well as it relates to the virus. here's the thing. this is the new normal. this is the new normal in terms of the virus and in terms of the administration we have. we need to ask ourselves how are we going to deal with them? one of the best informed people i know about the coronavirus and what it's doing around the country, professor of global health and the director of the harvard global health institute. i want to start with something you said, i think earlier today, in terms of estimates that the modeling you are working on suggests we might have 200,000 total deaths, another 90,000 or so deaths by the end of the summer in the u.s. is that correct? >> yes. so the best estimates out there, chris, are that we're going to hit 200,000 some time during the month of september. if you think about where we are, 800 to 1,000 people are dying every day. that's about 25,000 to 30,000 a month. go out three months and you understand by september we will cross that mark and the pandemic won't even be done by then. it is unbelievable to me that we have just become immune to this level of suffering and have just come to accept it as a reality when it doesn't have to be. >> well, i think part of that, though, part of it is that when you look at the nation nada ta and aggregate, it looks like we're moving in the right direction because so much of the hospitalizations, infections and deaths were driven by the new york metro area which has spiked and really come down quite rapidly, it could be confusing. but what goes through your mind when you look at texas and arizona particularly, particularly arizona because that -- the spike in arizona looks real bad to me. >> yeah. it looks liex ke even potential growth. if you don't jump on it, at some point you will be forced with only one option, which is stay at home and shut the economy down. it's a very scarey picture, and that's what we were able to avoid for the country. now we will see individual states confronting it, and they will have to ask themselves, do they have an appetite for shutting down again. >> that to me is a really important question because there is containment and mitigatiomit. you have a small enough number of cases and a capacity enough to test and trace that you can kind of play whack a mole with people getting the virus. you can get them quarantined, keep them away from people. when the numbers get big enough, which is what happened in the u.s. and new york and many countries is you just can't contain it. you just have to mitigate it, which means shut things down. that doesn't seen an option in many of these places. >> yeah. and we don't want to get to a point where that becomes the only option, right? >> right. >> but what happens is if the hospitals get overwhelmed, if doctors and nurses start getting sick, if large numbers of people start dying, then that becomes a political option again. who wants to get there? why do we want that as our strategy? >> i have to say the silver lining i keep coming back to as i walk around with my mask, which i don't like personally, but i wear it all the time, is that it does really seem increasingly masks really can be a key here. when you look at the experience that japan has had particularly and hong kong and taiwan and other cases where mask wearing is almost ubiquitous that maybe if we all wear masks we can really do a lot by just putting this stupid thing on our faces, we could have a tremendous effect. >> yeah. you know, the evidence on this has really been changing and is getting stronger and better day by day. and what i say to people, people who bring up this issue of freedom, i'm like, you know what gives you freedom to get back to life and not get sick and die, wearing a mask, maintaining social distancing, wearing a mask. it is striking to me that we have seen freedom as the freedom not to wear a mask, not freedom to get our lives back, and that's part i think of what masks get you. >> we should say that this study says we could be looking at reducing infections by, you know, getting our beneath one, which is the key. if you just have 50% of people wearing masks. obviously, we have seen huge protests across the country. a lot of mask wearing, but not always. it is outdoors as opposed to indoors, but people are pretty packed together. there is lots of concern about what that means. what do you think about a big indoor rally, particularly if it is the case that not wearing a mask becomes the performance of one's political identity? >> yeah. you know, in terms of the protests, while i support the protesters and what they are protesting, i have been worried. but they do have the advantage of most people are wearing masks. it's outside. i think being outside is also a really big benefit. large indoor rallies without masks, i feel like they're asking for more outbreaks and really big ones and i don't know what the president would subject his own supporters to this. >> yeah, it's madness. i know they have done outdoor rallies before. but we'll see whether they actually do that. thank you for making the time. >> thanks, chris. of all the states facing charts, this chart from arizona tells quite a story. the curve there was never really flattened. arizona's daily tally has spiked so high the state sent hospitals a letter urging them to activate emergency plans. joining me now someone who has been doing great reporting in arizona, a health care reporter for the arizona republic. first just give us a snapshot from where you stand of what the discussion is in the state right now about what is happening with the virus in arizona. >> well, i think, first of all, my colleagues and i first started noticing a spike a couple of weeks ago, and we have been trying to get the state to say that there is an increased community spread. we have been able to get some experts to say that. so far the arizona department of health services has not actually said that. they have been telling people not to panic but to practice social distancing and other measures. however, the state's largest health system has started to take a lead in this role. they held a press conference on friday and said these numbers are really concerning and people need to wear masks and do not get complacent about social distancing. >> you are talking about the public health apparatus of the state of arizona and then a private hospital system, right, or a health care providing system. >> yeah. >> and it's the latter that has sort of called the press conference to say, we're worried. >> they did. and also the department of health. they both did that the day after the governor and our state health department had a press conference which i think that banner health and the county didn't feel answered all the questions that they had and all the messaging that they wanted to get out. >> one of the things we have seen, it happened in china, it happened in the u.s., it happened in new york to some extent, it's happened a lot of places, political leaders want it to not be the case that it's an outbreak. they send the message sort of down the chain that it's not that bad, it's going to be fine until it's too late. we have seen this play over and over. what is the tenure of the message from the governor and the folks in political leadership about where this state is at? is it, don't worry, this is under control? >> yeah. that's the message that i'm hearing from the state health department, and i know one of our congressmen just sent a letter to the governor saying, look, you have got to have more leadership on this. you have got to tell people what's going on because we don't feel like we're getting enough direction. and he pointed out some of the numbers from recent days, which, you know, today we had 1,500 new cases, which was the second highest daily new cases that were reported. so there is some of that going on. i mean, his was the first letter i have seen, but i get the sense from the state they're saying, you know, don't panic. and even the letter that dr. chris, our state health director sent on saturday, they said to me, well, that was really a reiteration of what we sent in march, and we weren't sending it from a position of panic. >> so just to be clear on the data here, because there is some states where testing capacities increase tremendously and texas for a while has sort of said, look, we're testing a lot more, that's why you are seeing more cases, arizona has a bunch of metrics, not just positive cases, all the numbers appear to line up to show that there is an outbreak happening. >> sure. and when you see increased positive cases, that could be due to the fact that we're doing a lot more testing. it was really hard to get a test in arizona at the beginning, as it was in many parts of the country. but a lot of the indicators we're seeing are not just because of increased testing. when you have -- you're reaching record levels of people in the hospital for suspected and confirmed covid, that's not due toin creased testing. when you are seeing inkrcreasesn the percent of positive cases, that trend should be going down. it should not be going up, regardless of how much testing you are doing. >> final yequestion, you talked about banner health, which is a private health care center sounding the alarm. how much are you hearing alarm or worry from hospitals, particularly icus, things like that, medical providers? >> well, banner health has really been a leader on that. they have been very candid with the press, anyway, telling us what their capacities are. they actually reached capacity on saturday, which is the external lung machine. and it's really helping us as the press try to tell the public what's going on. so that's been really helpful that they're doing that. >> yeah. that's interesting. private data sort of a bedrock of trying to get our hands around the shape. thank you very much for making some time for us. >> thanks for having me. >> up next, stacy abrams on the election catastrophe in georgia, what it portends for november and what could be done about it right after this. t right after this safe drivers save 40%!!! guys! guys! check it out. safe drivers save 40%!!! safe drivers save 40%! safe drivers save 40%!!! that's safe drivers save 40%. it is, that's safe drivers save 40%. - he's right there. - it's him! he's here. he's right here. - hi! - hi. hey! - that's totally him. - it's him! that's totally the guy. safe drivers do save 40%. click or call for a quote today. safe drivers do save 40%. when you think of a bank, you think of people in a place. but when you have the chase mobile app, your bank can be virtually any place. so, when you get a check... you can deposit it from here. and you can see your transactions and check your balance from here. you can save for an emergency from here. or pay bills from here. so when someone asks you, "where's your bank?" you can tell them: here's my bank. or here's my bank. or, here's my bank. because if you download and use the chase mobile app, your bank is virtually any place. visit chase.com/mobile. i geh. common bird.e. ooh look! over here! something much better. there it is. peacock, included with xfinity x1. remarkable. fascinating. -very. it streams tons of your favorite shows and movies, plus the latest in sports news and... huh - run! the newest streaming app has landed on xfinity x1. now that's... simple. easy. awesome. xfinity x1 just got even better with peacock premium included at no additional cost. no strings attached. just say "peacock" into your voice remote to start watching today. this morning, the day after georgia's statewide election which had been delayed so they had some time to prepare for it, this was the front page of the atlanta journal-constitution. voting places were not working, people waited in line for up to seven hours to vote. some voters just gave up and went home. at one point, a dry erase board in the secretary of state's office showed 20 separate counties in georgia where judges had to step in to extend voting hours because the lines were so long. the co-founder of black voters matter was in union city, georgia and tweeted the last voter walked out at 12:20 a.m. then they called the police on us. voting lines were so bad yesterday that people in line were organizing themselves. >> they say they have escalated this particular issue to the secretary of state's office, but we know how that goes. so what we need you to do in the meantime because this is what we call voter suppression, we need you all to call election protection hotline. you may get a voice mail when you call. please leave a message. >> georgia's republican governor has so far stayed silent on the recent problems with voting according to the associated press. they put the blame on local officials, even though georgia under the previous secretary of state has been notorious for making it more difficult to vote. so much so it's led to multiple lawsuits. in fact, one of the organizations that sued the state ran against kemp for governor in 2018, stacy abrams, author of the new book, and stacy abrams joins me now. i thought maybe we would start with your own story. i saw you had your own story of voting and the difficulties of it yesterday. can you tell us what happened to you? >> absolutely. so because of the pandemic, because we were encouraging people to vote by mail because that was the safest way to vote, not only for the voter but also for voters who didn't have a choice, i attempted to vote by mail. i eventually got my ballot. i filled it out and when i got ready to put it in the return envelope, it was sealed shut. i then attempted to steam it open because i watch too many mystery shows. it did not work and so yesterday i went to stand in line with fellow georgians to cast my ballot. >> it's been remarkable -- kemp has not said anything about, and the lines from the secretary of state has been -- this was on the various precincts. this was on the counties. they screwed this up. i want to read you something from the statewide voting implementation manager. these are unfortunate. they are not issues of the equipment but counties engaging in poor planning, limited training and failures of leadership. what do you think about that? >> that he misunderstands or deliberately is indifferent to the needs of voters. the secretary of state decided to purchase $107 million worth of new equipment. he was responsible for the implementation of these changes. in fact, he used $400,000 that was allocated by the federal government to help with the implementation of elections and he used it to be an advertisement of how good he was because he got these machines. the constitution of georgia puts the responsibility for the administration of elections on the secretary of state. the counties are the local instruments, but the secretary of state is responsible. and even the challenge of implementing new equipment isn't new. in 2002, democrat kathy cox had the same responsibility. she provided staffing, training, mailed instructions to every single voter, had emergency stand-by, had 100 extra secretary of state staffers ready to help. none of those things were available. instead what we saw were inoperable machines, miscommunication, failed training and failed direction, all of which lay squarely at the feet of the secretary of state. >> there is a question here about incompetence versus malice, obviously, and there is a long history here both in georgia in recent memory going back to a very, very long time going back to reconstruction. the center has studied this issue. it shows that long wait times disproportionately affect black and latino voters. and a new york times columnist put it this way, an election where people are waiting for 7 or 8 hours to cast a ballot is not a free and fair election. do you agree with that? >> absolutely. we know in the state of georgia you do not have the right to pay when you are voting. you do not have the right to be paid. so people sacrifice a day's wage to try to cast a vote. these are largely communities that are working class, working poor. they're not making a lot to begin with. to cast a ballot, it's a poll tax. but we know even more that you raise the question of incompetence versus malice. in georgia it's both. there is a malfeasance that is permeating the entirety of voting system and exacerbated by the incompetence of the leadership that doesn't seem to understand what the job is. that's what we face in georgia. but let's be clear. this didn't just happen in georgia. it also happened in south carolina and nevada to a lessor extent and certainly without the clownish behavior of the secretary of state. but across the country, we are seeing this combination of incompetence and malfeasance putting voters of color at risk of not being heard in our democracy. >> there's also been in iowa, the iowa state senate today wanted to block the iowa secretary of state, the republican, from mailing out absentee ballots to all the voters, something that's happened under the republican secretary of state of ohio and michigan. it is not a partisan issue. what do you make of this increasingly partisan attack? right now, our first block of the show was the pandemic hasn't gone anywhere and we're not in cold and flu season and we're not in the fall when people expect it to be worse. >> we know that it's going to be worse. we know that people want to be heard. we are in the midst of a public health crisis, an economic collapse, a deep distrust of our justice system and we have a voting system that republicans are doing their level best to make as unusable as possible. republicans have been fighting across this country to fight back against expansion or at least access to voting rights. but we also know that republican leaders know better. they use absentee ballots. they know that vote by mail works. they are not concerned about fraud with vote by mail. they're concerned about participation and the reason we see people pushing back is that in the state of iowa, there is a real strong likelihood that democrats will outperform republicans, so this is the best way to constrain their participation. what we saw happen in georgia was that more democrats voted in this election than voted in previous primaries, including in 2016. >> interesting. >> and this record turnout looks different, looks like disaster for them and so they're going to do their level best to limit who can actually have a voice in our elections. >> you raised the turnout yesterday. georgia has two contested senate seats, two contested senate primaries yesterday, along with the presidential primary which had been delayed. there is polling showing the president and joe biden essentially tied in georgia or around there. election day in georgia is going to be bonkers just at a turn-out level. two senate seats and also the presidential. you've got to imagine that any competent administrator would have to be planning for an enormous turn-out in november. >> which is why it's so dangerous that brad is denying responsibility. the resources for scaling up our elections, both in georgia and around the country, will have to come from the hero's act. it will have to come from the federal government. but if the secretary of state is not intending to use those resources to help the local officials meet the moment, then we know our elections are going to collapse. we have seen what voter suppression can do in georgia. and i know that the turn-out in this upcoming election is going to dwarf the record turn-out we had in 2018. 2018 we had the single largest turn-out inform democratic voters in voter history. that number is going to be much higher in 2020 because recovery from the pandemic, recovery from the systemic injusts that we saw that took the life of mr. arbery, george floyd and brianna taylor. people know if we don't solve this problem in this election, we do not have a future for many people in this country. >> stacy abrams, thank you so much for taking some time tonight. >> thank you for having me. coming up as george floyd's brother testified before congress today, tonight a pretty stunning development in the killing of brianna taylor. that's next. r. that's next. i have moderate to severe pnow, there's skyrizi. ♪ things are getting clearer, yeah i feel free ♪ ♪ to bare my skin ♪ yeah that's all me. ♪ nothing and me go hand in hand ♪ ♪ nothing on my skin ♪ that's my new plan. ♪ nothing is everything. keep your skin clearer with skyrizi. 3 out of 4 people achieved 90% clearer skin at 4 months. of those, nearly 9 out of 10 sustained it through 1 year. and skyrizi is 4 doses a year, after 2 starter doses. ♪ i see nothing in a different way ♪ ♪ and it's my moment so i just gotta say ♪ ♪ nothing is everything skyrizi may increase your risk of infections and lower your ability to fight them. before treatment your doctor should check you for infections and tuberculosis. tell your doctor if you have an infection or symptoms such as fevers, sweats, chills, muscle aches or coughs, or if you plan to or recently received a vaccine. ♪ nothing is everything ask your dermatologist about skyrizi. ♪ in an unprecedented crisis... a more than $10 billion cut to public education couldn't be worse for our schools and kids. laying off 57,000 educators, making class sizes bigger? c'mon. schools must reopen safely with resources for protective equipment, sanitizing classrooms, and ensuring social distancing. tell lawmakers and governor newsom don't cut our students' future. pass a state budget that protects our public schools. today police in louisville, kentucky finally released an incident reporting from the fatale shooting of 26-year-old breonna taylor. it's a four-page report. it is almost completely blank and it lists taylor's injuries as none despite the fact she was shot at least eight times by police. justice for bree onthtaylor has rallying cry. arbery, george floyd, both of which were captured on tape. and one that was not captured on tape. and that's bree taylor in louis. she was an emergency room technician. she also worked as a certified emt and she was a front line worker facing the beginning of the coronavirus crisis. and in the early morning hours of march 13th, he was at home with her boyfriend kenny walker and they were asleep in bed when they heard a loud banging at the door. police officials claim the detectives at taylor's door announced their presence, but walker and neighbors say they never heard anyone identify themselves. when no one opened the door, detectives used a battering ram to force their way in. walker, the boyfriend, called 911 believing their house was being invaded. and he fired one round of warning to scare away the invader. police responded with a hail of bullets, according to walker's attorney, firing more than 22 rounds. at least 8 of which struck taylor. the officers were there to execute a no knock search warrant based on police's belief that a suspect used taylor's address to receive mail. well, no drugs were found in taylor's apartment and neither had any criminal history or drug convictions. the three responding officers are all on administrative reassignment pending investigation as is the officer who requested the warrant. but breonna taylor's family is pushing for more as she would have turned just 27 years old last week. >> she literally was the sweetest person ever. >> the car rides was fun with my sister. i have friends when my sister passed away they were telling me they admired our relationship. they wished they and their siblings were like that. it is so weird that her birthday is this friday and she is not getting on my last nerves, you need to do this for me. it's so weird. she's not here. here it's called ubrelvy the migraine medicine for anytime, anywhere a migraine attacks without worrying if it's too late or where you happen to be. one dose of ubrelvy can quickly stop migraine pain and debilitating symptoms in their tracks within two hours. unlike older medications, ubrelvy is the first pill of its kind to directly block cgrp protein believed to play a role in migraine attacks. do not take with strong cyp3a4 inhibitors. few people had side effects, most common were nausea and tiredness. a migraine can strike anytime, anywhere. ask about ubrelvy, the anytime, anywhere migraine medicine. you ever wish you weren't a motaur? 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>> i do not. >> i will say it again. i do not. >> does the president feel that there is systemic racism in law enforcement? >> the president has been very clear there are injustices in society. >> he doesn't think there is systemic racism. >> he believes most of our police officers are good, hard working people and there is a lot of evidence of that and he has great faith in our police department. i'm joined by now by a member of the house jewiudiciar committee that held that hearing today and the mayor of the city of providence. what did you view of the goal of today's hearing? >> the goal of today's hearing, chris, was to really lay out the importance of moving forward, some real reforms to improve police accountability to ensure that law enforcement is working for the people of this country in a fair and equitable way and we hold police officers accountable when they engage in it. it was an opportunity to hear from mr. floyd's brother who gave powerful syst fuful testim his brother's death and really called us to action saying, his name is well known. your names will be well known too if you move forward with bold action. and we heard from experts and civil rights advocates and folk who is have studied law enforcement in significants ways about what are the best ways to reform policing in this country to help eliminate police brutality, the kinds of things that led to the death of george floyd. >> one of the items in your legislation, which i think is most interesting around which there is a little bit of sort of cross ideological consensus is ending qualified immunity as it's been interpreted by the supreme court. it's a doctrine that has been interpreted by the supreme court to essentially make it almost impossible to sue a police officer or a department for a conduct even that's wildly egregious or unconstitutional. how important do you think that is? do you think that's something you might find traction? other republicans seem to be. >> i think it is something we should find traction with. this is sort of the centerpiece accountability, police officers who engage in misconduct that resulted in citizens being harmed and sometimes killed, they have to be held accountable. the way the court has interpreted that doctrine that they essentially created basically immunizes police officers from being held accountable for even gross misconduct. and you can't have a system that enjoys the respect of the american people if misconduct can occur without any accountability. and, so, i think that's an important part of the legislation as well as the banning chokeholds, as well as the provisions to end racial profiling, as well as the training pieces, the registry for police officers who have misconduct. this is a moment that the country expects us to act and enact meaningful reforms for real change in our country. >> it seems to me there is sort of two conversations happening in america. one is a conversation among i think a majority of americans of all races about the sort of spectrum of ways of attacking the problem, reform versus more radical solutions. then there is the president and, you know, sort of the kind of hard core who don't really want to have the conversation. do you see any openness among house republicans? we know the senate is working on something. do you see your house republican colleagues to engage on this issue? >> well, it's interesting. the hearing today was really revealing. many of my republican colleagues acknowledged the seriousness of this issue, expressed a willingness to respond in a meaningful way and to work with us to move forward with a response. they expressed commitments to mr. floyd that they would take this effort seriously. and, so, you know, i think it shows the power of the people in this country, that people all across america are marching and demanding change. young people, old people, people of every background. and i think my republican colleagues are feeling that. th this is a moment, a historic opportunity to respond to a problem that has existed for generations in this country, the scourge of racism, of disparate treatment in the criminal justice system and policing is really a stain on the soul of our country. and my republican colleagues i think today at least used some language that shows they're open to it. of course, we will mark the bill up next week, and we'll have an opportunity to sort of test how sincere they are about doing something about this by how they vote. >> final question for you. i noticed in my reporting on this issue for years that politicians, particularly democrat politicians, african-american, white, latino sound very different as mayors when running a police force. the providence police force has a very, very spotty if not ugly history. back in 2010 there were people who wanted you to get rid of the chief police, calling for him to resign, describe ed marred by corruption and mismanagement. >> when i took over the providence police department, it was a department that was under a patterns and practice investigation by the department of justice. crime was on the increase. the community was at war with the police and people had really lost confidence in the department. i brought on a new chief. we brought down the crime rates to the lowest crime rate in 40 years. we opened nine new community substations. we went on being under investigation to a fully accredited police department. and the police really became fully integrated into the community. that he served on housing association boards and we opened nine neighborhood substations. so i really saw that the ability to transform a department with the community, the community-based police department with extraordinary results. it is hard work, but it is central to what you have to do to make sure cities are successful. >> thanks for being with me today. >> my pleasure. coming up, heather mcgee on new polling that shows nationwide protests are having incredible impacts. the stunning result from nascar now. they're banning confederate flags. e banning confederate flags. yup, on it there too. you may think you're doing all you can to manage type 2 diabetes and heart disease... ...but could your medication do more to lower your heart risk? 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try bounce wrinkle guard dryer sheets. the bounce wrinkle guard shorts have fewer wrinkles and static, and more softness. it's the world's first mega sheet that does the job of three dryer sheets! bounce out wrinkles. in an unprecedented crisis... a more than $10 billion cut to public education couldn't be worse for our schools and kids. laying off 57,000 educators, making class sizes bigger? c'mon. schools must reopen safely with resources for protective equipment, sanitizing classrooms, and ensuring social distancing. tell lawmakers and governor newsom don't cut our students' future. pass a state budget that protects our public schools. this is a live scene in portsmouth, virginia. there is an impromptu protest outside of a confederate monument that is in that town. virginia is the home to more confederate monuments than any state in the union. of course they dot the landscape of america. there's even many u.s. army bases and other bases named after them. there's something incredible happening with american public opinion. just today nascar, an institution for many in rural white america, an institution that has struggled with expanding and diversifying its base, announced it would ban confederate flags. saying the presence of confederate flag at nascar events runs contrary to our commitment to providing a welcoming environment. the display of the confederate flag will be prevented from all properties. public opinion appears to be moving rapidly in the direction of the protesters. just look at this graph from "the new york times" upshot. support for black lives matter increased as much as it had other the past two years. someone who has wrote a book about it, "the sum of us, what racism costs everyone and how we can prosper together," she did a ted talk last year about how people understand racism and what it means for them. heather mcghee. heather, there were so much tension and worry in the wake of the protests when they started from people, particularly i think like white liberals who were like oh, god, it's going to help donald trump. oh, no, no, no. and it is really -- it's like a case study in street protests and public opinion. i myself am actually kind of shocked by the data. what do you see happening here? >> i think we see a few things happening. one, i think we were primed for this moment by the coronavirus. by a lot of the american mythology being laid bare. one the idea that we can be relentlessly upwardly mobile and that white folks have sort of their grasp on the american dream. when the economy shut down and people real ieized that they we one or two paychecks away from destitution and the government may not be there for them, there was a sense of vulnerability and physical vulnerability. as we saw, the coronavirus made people lean into their neighbors and show so much solidarity and interdependence. once you tap into that source of vulnerability, interdependence and an awareness of the quality that coronavirus has exposed, you're primed for something big. and then george floyd was murdered on video, on top of the videos that we have and videos that we don't have of so many of the other acts of racism, breonna taylor, ahmaud arbery, christian, the bird watcher in new york. it was like lightning striking when you feel that electricity building up in a storm. and so that's why, i think, we have this incredible thing happening with public opinion. but it's also because of movements, because movements are powerful. the movement for black lives has been working on this day in and day out, in big street protests and in small reading circles and in fights online and in calling people in and calling people out since trayvon martin was killed. >> yeah, we're watching it. just so people know, we were watching someone take a sledgehammer to a confederate monument. this monument is sort of unnamed confederate soldiers, many of which have been torn down. they were erected as explicit memorializations of white supremacy and a victory lap over the quality that was pushed through in reconstruction. we are watching them come down in powerful moments of symbolism. the polling here, heather, you've got the last few weeks. you've also got if you look back 2011 poll on racism, how big a problem is racism for society? 21% of white people saying it's a big problem. now you've got 60% of white respondents. there's something happening. i see people caricature it or they use woke in these sort of the way they use pc in these condescending quotation marks, but there is something happening in the consciousness of white people in america about race. >> 100%. we've never had an enduring lasting change without this kind of multi racial coalition. it's so important that this consciousness change, because what am i talking about when i say consciousness. i mean our beliefs. what do we believe about the different groups of people that make up this country. we've seen consciousness change on issues like lgbtq equality and marriage equality. consciousness changed and then policy changed. we've seen in contrast policy change without consciousness change. i call to mind brown versus board of education. >> great, great point. >> you had a policy change that was resisted not ten years later by the supreme court and a backlash that was very much, i think, driven hand in hand with the rise of the new jim crow and mass incarceration where the belief and the inherent sort of goodness and innocence of black and brown children has not actually followed, and it didn't predate the court decision. we have schools that are as segregated as they were before brown. this consciousness change is going to see ripples all over the place. they're seen with the party in virginia right now saying it's time for a new america and that's what they're saying. >> that is an incredible and illuminating framework. by the way, i'm watching a black man take a sledgehammer to a monument to white supremacy erected on public land to essentially celebrate the subjugation of african-americans. in fact many of the confederate monuments, i don't know the particular history of this one throughout the south were erected in the wake of brown v. board as precisely this backlash politics. in the 40 seconds we have left, do you fear the backlash politics? in the era of donald trump, people are scared of it and it always looms large. >> of course there will be a backlash but here's the question, are we going to be strong enough to defeat it, and i think we are. i think you are seeing the longest, most sustained protests in american history. there will always be a backlash, they'll always have a lot of money and a lot of the media in terms of the right-wing media, but this moral moment that we are being called to i think is stronger than any backlash. >> heather mcghee, one of my favorite people in the world to talk to always. it's wonderful to see you. thank you very much. well, long live the union as that soldier monument comes down. that is "all in" for this evening. "the rachel maddow show" starts right now with ali velshi in for rachel. >> those are remarkable images, chris, thank you, and have yourself a good night. thanks to you at home for joining us this hour. rachel has a much deserved night off but she's going to be back tomorrow. it's been 16 days since george floyd died at the hands of police and began a nationwide movement in this country. at this hour protests are still going on in los angeles and phoenix, arizona. lets me show you what happened earlier in the day. hundreds of people marched through the streets of boston eventually stopping outside of city hall to demand police funding be diverted to social programs. in new york city, protesters carried with them images of george floyd and signs that read
this morning my question, what in the world was justice scalia talking about? and just thinks that people are making out like bandits. and once again, congress plays lucy to the american people's charlie brown. good grief. good morning, i'm melissa harris-perry, and today, it is saturday march 2nd. remember last saturday when i said that in less than a week $85 billion of automatic spending cuts would begin to take effect, and spending cuts that no one wants and leaving americans to take furloughs or job layoffs? well, happy sequester day, because the sequester is here, and it looks like it is here to stay, because even though the congressional leadership met with president obama at the white house yesterday morning, nothing came of it. both camps came out with the same talking points they had when they started the meeting. republican house speaker john boehner moseyed on out of the white house with the same ole same ole to offer. >> make it clear that the president got the tax hikes on january 1st. there is a discussion about the revenue in my view is over. it is about taking on the spending problem here in washington. >> and even though he heard it all before, president obama gave some of the republican delegation the benefit of the doubt yesterday. >> i do know that there are republicans in congress who privately at least say that they would rather close tax loopholes than let these cuts go through. i know that there are democrats who would rather do smart entitlement reform rather than let the cuts go through, so there is a caucus of commonsense up there on capitol hill, but it is a silent group right now. >> of course, we are well past common sense. if we have learned nothing else from the debt deal showdown, the fiscal cliff and now the sequester, it is that putting together a fiscal plan for one of the largest economies in the world apparently has nothing to do with common sense, because here is common sense. common sense tells you that when someone holds out a football, you kick it. when they pull it away just as you are about to swing the leg, you might be a little bit more cautious the next time they hold the ball out for you, but we, the people, each have a little bit of the charlie brown optimism in us, so we say, hey, okay, let's take another shot, but when once again we are about to kick the ball, they snatch it away. it is safe to say that we are never going to get to kick the ball down the field. let's not forget that the sequester, itself, was the punt of the punt from the original punt in the 2011 when congress and the white house finally made a so-called deal on the debt ceiling, and as the president reminded us yesterday, none of this was even necessary. >> we are here for american families who had been getting battered pretty good over the last four years and just starting to see the economy improve, and businesses just starting to see some confidence coming back, and, you know, this is not a win for anybody. this is a loss for the american people. >> so see that is the conventional wisdom here, that just this week there were several signs that the economy was continuing to recovery, and a revised estimate by the u.s. commerce department that showed that the economy expanded slightly in the fourth quarter last year, and we learned that the number of americans seeking unemployment benefits fell by 22,000 and the dollar gained strength, but of course, the longer the sequester lasts the longer the gains could be rolled back. that is the common sense approach to politics. that is the rationale that makes you think that in a deliberative democracy that opposing parties could be convinced by the process of sharing information and exchanging data and listening to one another's argument, but the only argument that sways toward cooperation is if the position is a political liability, that good old fear of losing their jobs. but it looks like even though the political leaders packed up and went home this week without doing their jobs, it looks like we are the hardworking charlie browns in this country, because we are going to end up on our butts. with me is amy walter, senior editor of the cook political report, and tom shapiro, director of the institute of assets and social policy at brandeis university, and heather mcgee, advicer of public policy and demos.com. and ed ppakskey, because he brings doughnuts and is our favorite mayor. >> yes. >> and we are talking about everything across the board and every single thing is going to be cut and not with any reason, but just because we manufactured a crisis. amy? >> yes, we are good alt manufacturing the crisis. >> why? why? >> i appreciate when the president came out to say, there is a silent caucus of reasonable people up here. actually, there aren't. there are not reasonable people. >> they are not just silent, they are just not there. >> they are gone. they used to exist ten years ago and there were democrats who would vote who were moderates, and there were republicans who were moderate and over the last few years starting in 2006 and then going through the redistricting of 2011, they are gone. 96% of democrats sit in districts that barack obama won. 94% of the republicans sit in districts that mitt romney won. there is zero incentive for them to work on the other side. why would they do that? they are saying that the constituents are telling them to stay strong, and they are not lying, because the constituents look like the party they represent. >> well, there is a point when the constituents want something to be done. i want to listen to the president, and at one point the reporter asked him a question, and asked him, can you actually sequester congress and make them sit in a room unthil is doil al is done. and this is the president's response. >> couldn't you just have them all down here and leave them in the room until you have a deal? >> well, you know -- i mean, jessica, i am not a dictator. i am a president. so ultimately if mitch mcconnell and john boehner say that we need to go to catch a plane, i can't have secret service block the doorway. >> okay. heal heather, i get that, but i mean, i change flights, and we are talking about $75 and $100 fee to change the flight, and the president has his own plane that he could lend to the speaker, and are you saying it is fine to say, i have to get on the plane, and at what point must they do the jobs? >> the problem here is that you are right, amy, it is true that the districts are really polarized, but what has happened is that it is not left/right issue as washington issue, because even the republicans in the republican districts want balanced approaches, and want tax increases as well on the wealthy and closing the corporate loopholes and this is a common sense thing that even the republican base wants burk when you the beltway bubble which is surrounded by thousands of lobbyists and the donor class setting the agenda, the real division is between washington and us, and not the democrats and the republicans. >> and rick scott, the republican of florida said this, and i want to listen to this, and then, tom, i will have you respond to this. well, we don't have him saying it so i will say it. this is rick scott saying that the impacts on florida's military installations and defense industries will be severe under sequestration, and our immediate concerns include dramatic reduction to the national guard which tlent thre our ability to respond to wildfires this spring and hurricanes in the fall. so this is a real. >> well, we all hope that the nation's business is more important than doing another chicken dinner on saturday afternoon somewhere else. but the governor starts to hit at what many people think will be the impact down the road that might change some of the balance on this, and that is as the cuts start to hit real people in their real lives, and they start to respond. i mean, we are seeing both very, very painful kinds of hits with this sequester. those are the ones that the governor and others talk about, but i'm concerned about the invest. to future, so it is not just about what we don't have tomorrow, but it is about the nation and the families and the children will not have in the next two the three years. >> and those effects are cumulative and the dramatic impact at the moment, and it is cumulative and so let's look at the sequester cuts are, and respond, mayor. we are looking at more than a 1 million federal workers going on the furlough, and 800,000 defense department furloughs, and 70,000 students cut from head start, and 10,000 teachers cut, and 9.4 cut to unemployment benefits, so we are getting a body blow to the economy that is starting to recover. >> yes, it is estimated just in pennsylvania $11 million wages lost in the short term, and over $53 million if this goes on in the next year. it is real money in real people's pockets that are helping to fund our economy. so it is going to have some real life impacts. for cities, it is devastating. we are struggling and stretched to the breaking point because of all of the other cuts that congress has made and many of the programs that are going to be cut are going to affect cities disproportionately where a majority of the revenue is generated for the economies nationwide, and u, you know, everything from education to, you know, housing for the homeless to flu shots. i was talking to my health director and we will have to turn over 1,000 kids from flu shots in a season that flu has had an enormous impact on us. >> and even more lost wages. with we want to stay on the topic of the real life experience, because here we are once again and i feel like charlie brown and i keep saying, okay, it is going to be better, and then every time seeing that football yanked away. so now when we come back, we are going to the beltway to talk about the issues that is real people suffering because of washington's dysfunction. hey, it's sara. i'm going pro. i've been using crest pro-health for a week. my dentist said it was gonna help transform my mouth. 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(blowing sound) ask your doctor about spiriva. and these come together, one thing you can depend on is that these will come together. delicious and wholesome. some combinations were just meant to be. tomato soup from campbell's. it's amazing what soup can do. all of this will cause a ripple effect throughout our economy. layoffs and pay cuts means that people have less money in their pockets, and that means that they have less money to spend at local businesses, and that means lower profits, fewer hires. >> quite straight forward as the president made clear on friday that the sequester means less money in american people's pockets and the ripple effects of the cuts will be strongly felt at the state and the local level and the impact on one state, pennsylvania, will be millions upon millions and almost $48 million less in education funding and putting 360 teacher and teacher aide jobs at risk, and between 60 and 90 million in hud and housing lost to sequester. to bring some perspective to the huge figures the mayor of allentown pennsylvania who brought doughnuts an brought them today and there they are in the control room, because i am not eat iing the doughnuts, but the producers are, and look, we love you because you bring the doughnuts, but you also bring us the sense of what all of this means to ordinary people on the ground, when we look at the sequester cuts of the state budgets, and the state budgets, and $1.3 billion including $1 billion to special education, and wic which is women and infant and children program which is $550 million cut, and also $15 billion decrease in the army, and $11 billion from the navy and $7.7 billion from the air force. >> for us in allentown, it is going to be significant. like i said before the break, we have flu shots and we are estimating 5,000 kids in pennsylvania will not be p aebl to get flu shots, because of the funds cut for health and human services. meals on wheels, because of the nutrition programs and the se seniors have to go out the fend for themselves. it is just basic. >> and more will go hungry. >> yes, go hungry. >> and school funding $1.8 in allentown and 100 kids not going to head start, and it is real life commitments and devastating over the long term, and the cities are struggling from all of the cuts that have been made in congress. this is only going to make matters worse. i mean, millions upon millions upon millions of dollars in pennsylvania alone not going back into the economy, how does this help us? >> well, that is the question. how would this help? the one that i think that just -- i am just beside myself today, but the fact that we are already reducing the debt is the part that is really sticking to me. the fact that we are already seeing over a reduction of the debt that we are not in a debt crisis and not only manufactured crisis, but the reason for the manufactured crisis is also manufactured. how is this sort of set of false information so widely available that people believe that we have to make these kinds of cuts? >> so two things. first is lucy analogy. there is not a level of optimism, but there is also a fatigue out there, and you go on the talk about the cuts and the president talks about the cuts and how devastating it is going to be, and the public says, i am tired of it, and you say it every couple of weeks and what to believe, and that is why the public is not as engaged as the president thought they would be. >> and also the name sequester does not help. it is a bad name. >> armageddon needs to be in there somewhere. >> yes, march 1 is armageddon might have been better. >> yes, a focus groups of moms in kansas city and a lot of them in the same boat struggling economically, and they don't care, because the deficit is nothing of concern to them. they talk about the day-to-day live lives and how much it costs to fill up the gas tank, and i wrote about it the other day, one woman said, that i need to understand that people in washington understand my day-to-day life and not all of this ideological battle, because it is not going to pay for braces. >> well, tom, we had an election and people did make a choice between with the different possibilities, and they picked the guy in the senate and the congress and even though we tried to keep it that way, they voted for the people to raise the taxes on the rich and not make major cutts. >> so we had a national election where some of the issues were in fact before us, and we had a conversation, and debate and people went to the polls and we made a decision as a nation. but wait a minute, sequester. a fancy word for let's redo the priorities and meet behind the doors and have a forced, a forced set of cuts today that become the structure tomorrow. i want the dig down on one little fact here. we are talk abhousing in terms of money. the translation is that about 125,000 families that currently have housing choice vouchers are going to lose them. and half of those families have a member that is either a person with disabilities or is elderly, and as a policy choice, i would like people to raise their hands if they think that is a good priority to make that kind of cut. >> that we will cut and balance this deficit that we are bringing down and doing it on the backs of those with disabilities and with the elderly. >> that is right. >> when i come back, i want to give you this more amy, because i want to ask you next not only what is going to happen next, but what happened to the outrage about the inequality that was part of the discourse that brought us to the election where i thought that we had made a choice about that, and in fact, we will talk about the one, the one thing that could save us, god. here we come. think ju etting rid of dark spots will restore even skin tone? 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[ sighs ] [ chuckles ] [ announcer ] always rich, never bitter. gevalia. . as we anticipate an across the board set of budget cuts becoming law in our land, we still expect to see your goodness prevail. rise up, oh, god, and save us from ourselves. >> good grief! even the senate chaplain is blaming the country on the manmade disaster and not the firstle time he has made that point. and remember the last self-inflicted crisis a month ago. >> as we gather with so much work left undone, guide our lawmakers with your wisdom. look with favor on our nation and save us from self-inflicted wounds. >> that is sad that we have to keep praying, lord, keep us from ourselves. >> well, this guy is great. >> save us from ourselves. >> it is not save us from ourselves, but save frus the -- from the decisions made by a small group of people who have made decisions for the vast majority of the country, and we have to frankly remember why we are in this pickle at all because of a level of debt and deficit brought to us not by the president and not by someone who was elected in 2008, but the biggest four drivers of the fiscal problems that they are the two wars paid for on a credit card, and the bush tax cuts and then of course the financial crisis which was brought to you by a conservative economic ideology and the deregulation of wall street. >> yes, somehow that is lost. occupy wall street gave us a moment when we were focusing on that, but now somehow the de deficit is causal for economic problems rather than the other way around. >> yes, in fact, when the solution is economic growth, fairly distributed economic growth, and more jobs from the growth of the bottom up, and the myle-out, that is well within the power of the american government to do. even the americans jobs act and what the president spoke about in the inaugural address, universal pre-k, and money to give to communities to refurbish schools that are going to target the most badly hit school, and these are things to get us out of the hole, but we are not doing it because of political malpractice. >> and is that why? we are hearing heather say, if we were dealing with these, then we could talk about raising the minimum wage and addressing income inequality, and is the reason we are doing this to prevent doing that? >> well, we are talking about this so we don't have to do those things. the president won the election and wanted to do certain things in the next four years and made it clear on election night, and the inaugural speech, and now we have gone from that to potentially averted the government shutdown which is the one thing they have agreed to, and we have a debt ceiling fight and another budget cut coming up. so we will be caught up until may. and if these cuts start hitting and people are complaining, they have to figure out how the reel it back in, so we will spend time on it, and we are not spending time on the immigration, and things are demoted in front of us immigration reform or gun control, and those are the two things sitting on the back seat, and the thing is that with have we poisoned the well so smumuch with the lawmakers that we get nothing done. last congress was the least productive congress in the history of congress, and that is hard to do. >> well, it has to be hard to do nothing, because you never know when you are done, right? >> we are still doing nothing. it is almost like save us from amnesia, because we continually keep forgetting like you talked about the dialogue. only a few months ago we had the dialogue, and it is like every other day, they have a case of amnesia where they talk about what was happening before. >> and in is charlie brown and we know since 1952 that lucy is going to take the ball away and yet here comes charlie. that is my concern if we start to see the government as lucy, do we not even think it is capable of doing things that it can? this is part of the work, tom, that the government has been in fact extraordinary good in crafting a middle-class, and creating a set of policies that could put america pack to right as it once did, but if we have lost the faith in our ability to do that collectively, then we end up with these petty bites instead. >> well, part of it is because the government has stopped doing that and the policies around housing, around education, and around the entire wealth of the middle-class i would make the case, we have withdrawn from that. we have shift ed ted the ball f private investment to safety ladders and safety nets. >> and this when the president said he needed a jedi mind meld which is wrong, because of the "star trek" and "star wars" and you were like, yes, a jedi star meld, because we needed to communicate and that in fact what is happening in washington is not responding to need of ordinary people. so, up next, it is that time of the show when i send my weekly letter to somebody, and usually somebody who said something that needs a response. any guess who that might have been this week. this is john lewis sending up a little bit of a letter himself this week. >> it is an affront to all of the civil rights stood for, people died for and people bled for, and those who marched across the bridge 48 years ago. we did not march for some racial entitlement, but we wanted to open up the political process and let all of the people come in. we get doing... ...with a store full of ways to get it done. we can all throw on our work clothes... ...and throw out any doubt. because right now's the time to take those rooms from... ..."think i can do this?" to... ..."let me show you what i just did." more saving. more doing. that's the power of the home depot. outsmart your budget with this pergo presto flooring, just $1.88 a square foot. in a face to face challenge, new outlast stay fabulous foundation held up fabulously 'til five o clock. a leading liquid makeup? 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[ green giant ] ho ho ho. ♪ green giant on wednesday the supreme court heard arguments that could be be the end of a key provision of the united states voting rights act a. at the heart of the case is whether states with a long history of racial discrimination mustt get permission from the justice department before changing their voting laws. now, in comments that made lawyers gasp when they were listening at the court, justin antonin scalia made no pause in his comments. so justice scalia, there is nothing to come as a surprise, because you are so predictable to come in line with your decisions of the most conservative and we know that unlike your friend clarence thomas who has a permanent mute button on, you will have an opinion influenced by your political agenda, but even with that, what you said in the oral arguments wednesday came as a shock. you said quote, i don't think that it is attributable to the fact that it is so much clearer now that we need this. i think it is attributable, and very likely attributable to a phenomenon called eperpetuation of racial entitlement. you went on the is a that i'm fairly confident that it will be reenacted in perpetuity, and this is a question that you cannot leave to congress. racial entitlement not a question that you can leave for congress! en for you, justice scalia, this is a will fful misreading of th constitution that you adore. so take a look at the awe guts docume document, and right here in section 5 of the 14th amendment and again in section 2 of the 15th amendment, isn't that the same entitlement, a congressional entitlement that says that the congress shall have power to enforce by approapriate legislation the provisions of this article. so they have the equal protection and the franchise for american citizens and especially when the citizens live in the former confederate state. in fact, the 14th amendment spends sections 2, 3, 4 spelling out precisely how the states who were involved in insurrection and rebellion will be treated differently, because thee were state where is the economies and cultures rested on the intergenerational chattel bondage of human being. they were so determined to keep holding human beings in slavery that they got together in armed rebellion against our country. sop of those same states, and more than 150 years later are still trying to pass laws that would deny the rights to vote for the very people that deny the voting rights act, and that people in section five would vote. excuse me, antonin, i'm dismayed that you describe the rights of citizenship racial entitlement. contrary to what you are suggesting the voting act was not a gift to the black people, but a right already enshrined in the constitution and repeatedly flouted by the southern governments, and here is what you missed, scalia, a great thing occurred in the 1860 whenz congress had to grapple with how to include the fully enslaved within the circle of citizenship which led congress to articulate due process, and equal protection, and those pillars of citizenship apply to everyone. the opposite of a special entitlement, but the constitution was not enough, and made congress over 100 years to make those practices a reality for all. so justice scalia when you spew that entitlement discourse from the bench, you undermine the core of our democracy, but i will still say thank you, because wednesday, you smoeed us exactly who you are, nand the words of the late great poet the great b.i.g., if we didn't know, now we know. s sincerely, melissa. 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[ male announcer ] ask your doctor if chantix is right for you. did you know not all fiber is the same? citrucel is different- it's the only fiber for regularity that won't cause excess gas. it's gentle and clinically proven to help restore and maintain regularity. look for citrucel today. perhaps just as disturbing as justice antonin scalia's arguments was what justice clarence thomas had to say. yeah, that is right, folks, in a case that may leave the voting rights of millions of people of color unprotected the lone african-american man on the court said nothing. but that was certainly not the case for chief justice john roberts who asked this. >> it is possible that the citizens in the south are more racist than the citizens in the north? >> and he also made this oobservation earlier. >> which state has the greatest disparity in registration between white and african-american? well sh well, first is massachusetts and third in mississippi where the african-american registration is high near on the white registration rate. >> it seems like john roberts made a hell of a compelling case for tex tension to the voting rights act to the state of massachusetts. we go to the bridge in selma, alabama, where is the sight of bloody sunday where people were marching in 1965 and brutally beaten by the police. we are joined by the council of the legal defense fund chairman cherilyn. >> is that a reasonable argument that it is not more racist in the south? >> no, it is not a reasonable argument, and it is shocking to hear from the courtroom, because it is a one of the most es assee were sitting there as people there in alabama can tell you about the struggle there and how white power has tried to take control of the district for decades, so to hear that statement was shock iing. listening to you recount it hearing it here as i am at the foot of the edmond pettis bridge, the site of the march of 1965 made the statements more disturbing. john lewis got it right that it was a not a front. i wrote about it, and you ccan find my gap about it. there was a gasp when justice scalia made his comments, and it felt like a slap with a 1,500-page document that congress has concluded. it does not matter at the end of the day what chief roberts thinks is the nature of racial discrimination in 2013 or what justice scalia or jus ti sotomayor thinks, but the question is what did congress have and did they have a basis? they can't ignore the record that congress had over a year representing the ongoing racial discrimination throughout this country. >> i want to pause there for a moment. in case people have missed this, when the 1965 voting rights act was reauthorized in 2006 it was with overwhelming unanimous support including a 98-0 vote in the u.s. senate, and that means therefore all of the senators in the states that are covered by a preclearance. >> well, that is what got justice scalia so agitated, because he suggested that it was a unanimous vote in the senate must mean it is the perpetuation of racial entitlement and hard to reverse that once it happens. it is interesting because justice scalia's confirmation vote was 98-0 in the senate. so he was using the fact that we have wonderful progress that we have that even the senators covered by section 5 have the need for the ongoing clearance process. so he went on the say this is must mean a racial entitlement and we as the court must step in, because we cannot trust congress. it was extraordinary statement and i would be surprised if a majority of the supreme court justices want to line up with that statement. >> stay with us cherilyn, because it would be interesting if we can say that the comments of justice scalia were clearly racist. we will keep cherilyn with us. she can tell you about straight talk. sure! you get unlimited talk, text and data for only $45 a month per phone. can we still get the same cool phones? yeah -- the latest smartphones and coverage on america's best networks, nationwide. by switching to straight talk you could save $31.23 a month, that's over $370 a year! wow! and now you get unlimited data! that is awesome. 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[ male announcer ] it's an experience... everyone will be asking for. herbal essences. say yes again to naturally irresistible hair. share your first time using herbal essences. we won't know the fate of the voting rights act until june, because that is when the supreme court is set to deliver a decision. at stake is the preclearance entitlement which requires all states to get permission from the justice department before any changes are made to the election law, and the court must require if that requirement is still required and it is timely because it was used to vote voter i.d. laws in texas and south carolina and two states covered by the preclearance. joining us is cherilyn from the ncaa legal defense fund, and so it seemed that the fact that we are hearing this at this moment is shocking, because it was an issue in this election. >> absolutely. it is really ironic, because we have had in the past election more americans realizing the lengths that the politics will go the shape the electorate. and the fact is that just because the american legislative exchange council and the corporate-backed lobbying -- >> alec. >> yes, legislative group was able to import what had been essentially mostly a southern tactic of voter i.d. laws across the country in a blitzkrieg fashion in 2010 and 2011 does not mean and now it is in pennsylvania and now it is in wisconsin and plays that are not covered by the voting rights a act. that does not mean that it is suddenly unconstitutional for us to protect the voting rights of millions of americans. >> part of the reason i wanted you at the table, mayor, is that they are not wrong, the justices when they mention that pennsylvania for example, ohio ho, and states not covered by the preclearance were particularly egregious in this particular election. >> absolutely. we had a voter i.d. law that would have disfranchised 750,000 e folks and most of the minority folks and the elderly. we are still fighting that. the courts have still not totally decided that issue. now, there is another attack on the ability to vote and take away the electoral college vote which would divide it up in congressional districts which is so ridiculous gerrymandered that it is impacting on the individual's right to vote, and i have a district going from allentown to the middle of the state that snakes around like a big snake and looks like a question mark. >> and in is to extend section 5 rather than pull it back? >> yes, we need more scrutiny and not less. >> so more people would need it precleared. i want to listen to justice sotomayor, and unfortunately we have been listen so much to scalia and roberts. so she says, may i ask you a question, and let's listen to that. >> may i ask you a question, assuming that i assume the premise and there is some question about it, that some portions of the south have changed, your county pretty much hasn't. >> no. >> and in the period we are talking about it has many more discriminating and 240 discriminatory voting laws that were blocked by section 5 objections. there were numerous section 2 hem ri did the section 2 litigation, and you may be the wrong party bringing this. >> and she laid it out there, maybe race is better, but not where you live, my friend. >> that is the beginning of the argument and set the tone. obviously, she has read the record that congress has amassed. the great story, melissa, is that people are fighting back and people recognize the importance of voting rights, and the supreme court said that right is preservative of all rights. and the organizers down here are expecting thousands of people to march and march in the reenactment of the bridge. this is history present for people not only in alabama, but acro across the country who come down here for the march. so for that case made, we are optimistic it will be done, because congress a amased a record and they know what is happening with the cities and the towns voting across the country, and i hope that people are going to stay tune and watch what unfolds in alabama as the americans reinforce their right to vote and really take it to the streets. >> heather, is that part of what we are are seeing here? people are more aware of the voting rights act or section 5, but that is that real pressure on the justices? >> i hope so. it is true that we have seen the supreme court that was the body of the politic that was actually able to uphold the constitutional rights of the 14th and the 15th amendment and gave us "brown v. board" and we have had this idea that the supreme court gives us the voting laws, and that is the part of the government to en shrine them first and most protective of the right from the tyranny of the majority, and yet, we are seeing that the court is the most reactionary, and one of the greatest threats to civil rights in our time is the minority opinion and now the majority opinion of the roberts' court between campus-based diversity, voting rights and a lot of issues. >> yes, and the things that are on the docket are astonishing, because this court will see affirmative action, and voting defense act, and equal marriage, and cherilyn, you were here last week to talk about this, and is there anything that you heard in what the justices were talking about that you heard that reflected this? >> well, what was important is hearing all of the justices with the exception of clarence thomas speak and sound engaged. the questions most important to me were the ones about who's job is it to declare that racial discrimination in voting has ended? the court recognizes that in some ways they have a limited role and areas in which they have an expansive role, and they get to interpret the constitution and what the constitution says, but there are certain things allocated to congress, ap one of the things allocated to congress is to enforce the right to vote. the justices are grappling with this, and the question of the power between the congress and the supreme court is one that has presidents not only for the voting rights cases, but those questions. those are the questions of greatst interest to me. >> thank you, cherilyn for joining us from the bridge. and not only the most recent history, but the living history in which we saw people killed for trying to just have the right to the franchise which is in fact enshrined in the constitution. thank you mayor ed pawlaskey for joining us at the table. and also, one of our famous foot soldiers are going to join aus at the table. so many more following his footsteps. there is so much more of nerdland after this. who thinks more is better than less? 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[ robert ] we created legalzoom to help people start their business and launch their dreams. go to legalzoom.com today and make your business dream a reality. at legalzoom.com we put the law on your side. welcome back. i'm melissa harris-perry. this has got me irritated. the magazine bluhmberg business week found itself in a racial pickle thursday when images of the new cover went viral and i can't imagine why the cover, as you can see, teases a story about the great american housing rebound and guess who is shown benefiting? yes, the grinning barefooted black man clutching mad loot along other assorted characters with exaggerated racial features burk i can't figure out how he has all of the money, and none to buy the shoes, but it is not a good look for business week and something they know, because the magazine did apologize on thursday for this cover. but it is not so much the grinning bug-eyed sambo with the new home, it is the lie it represent represents namely that whatever housing crisis there was, it was short lived and those are the minorities back out there making out like bandits, and we know that the rheale the ti is quite different. the subprime crisis that hit those homeowners only caused further systemic damage. and this week with a new study out from brandeis university underscored just how unequal things have become. tracing 1,700 households over 25 years the study found that the wealth gap between white and african-american families has widened exponentially and increasing from $85,000 in 1984 to $236,000 in 2009. this is the gap, and it is a gap that grew in that era in which the african-american grew. and including those who went off to college. what gives? the study sites education gap and unemployment and also the number which is the key one which is about how many years a household has owned a home and what kind of house it was. according to the studies' findings of all of the contributing factors the duration of homeownership was the wedge of all and driving the wealth gap ever higher. as the atlanta's article says that it has been a public policy for equality. joining us to break down the study is one of the primary authors and also a professor from the brandeis university tom shapiro and healther from demoes, and matthew from southern university, and james perry who is the director of the urban housing department, and i say his name that way, because he is my husband. and tom, what do you feel about this. >> well, whether it is social security or unemployment, it is the money basically that is money that streams in and out of the households and most of us use it for daily household use, and then most of us have debt on the credit card by the end of the month. and most of us have depth, but it is like a warehouse that we can draw upon when we need contingencies and crises, but more importantly for american society, it is the invest memen capital for our own well-being, and skill development, and buying that home and all kinds of things. >> well, it is counterintuitive that the income gap could be narrowing and more people going to college, but at the same time the wealth gap is nwiding and hw is that possible? >> that is what went to the heart of the study. what we looked at is the same set of families walking through the experience of american society, schools, homes, jobs, american policy. in our analysis, we were able to tear it apart and put it back together and ask what accounts for the $151,000 increase in the racial wealth gap, and indeed, we captured it through homeownership. >> that homeownership piece, and james, this is your work and the question of fair housing, and how fair housing either leads to fair or unfair outcomes. >> yes, in america, the deck has been stacked through the entirety of the process, and the result is that aftrican-americas have not had access to homeownership, and think about the concept of the health gap starts with slavery and at that point african-americans of course don't not only own property, but they are property, and white americans start owning property at the begoichk gre bhe great nation, so it is not until the jones versus myers lawsuit that black americans have the access as whites to own and transfer property. so it is only within a short team that blacks have been able to do that, and so that has inkreetsed the racial wealth. >> well, wealth is where it shows up in the wallet. i could go to the ivy league school, and still have no inheritance, and $15,000 from my grandparents to go to college, but it was not there and you talk about going into debt. 45 years ago was not that long ago to have the right to own and sell property, but 20 years ago did the government stop redlining whole neighborhoods for mortgage insurance and did private lenders stop targeting communities of colors with subprime loans? >> yes. >> and i think that the study raises provocative things for us to think about, but basically it suggests that over the last several decades there has been a stable model for wealth accumulation, and economic process for the white middle-class and upper middle-class. >> and homeownership. >> yes, a formula to go the college, and get married and buy a home and save for retirement, and what the study suggests is that all of those things combined have worked well to promote affluence among the white working class, but each one of those have been less effective for black americans, and going to college has produced lower returns and marriage returns lesser income, and so on and on and that model that we have established for the white pros pperity that has word well for america over the last several decades, the question is how to extend it to the broader way. >> i don't want people to miss the way you are saying that, because it is important that part of what happens when we talk about the wealth accumulation is that we assume it is about individual choices, but the choices have what is called a flatter curve, a flatter slope that it is not as steep. each year of education does not bring as much return to you and the likelihood of going from unmarried to married does not bring enough, and the reason it happens in the housing market is because black and brown bodies reduce the value of the home that they are living in? >> yes, you know in new orleans where we live segregation is a real factor and if you live in a majority of the african-american neighborhood, if you own the same home in black and white neighborhood, the black neighborhood is worth lez. it will impact your life as you grow up. >> as i was reading this, tom, i want people to get how intense this gap is. i looked back to look at not just race, but narrow it down and there was a recent study showing that african-american wom women, and all women of color who are unmarried the median wealth for unmarried women is $5. the cushion, the deep pond is $5. for me that was like when we know that unmarried women in communities of color are more likely to raise children, that to me told an enormous story. >> there are no deep pockets, but a mirage in the wilderness quite frankly that does not exist out there. it is a desert, and in fact for the median to be $5 and half above and half below, we are talking about 49% or so of that population living constantly in debt and not having an emergency fund. not being able to do anything if a crisis comes up, if the car breaks an axle in the winter, and if food runs out at the end of the month and all kinds of contingencies that cannot be met. it is a horrible situation and for me, that is what wealth speaks to. it is about the ability to move ourselves and our families and the communities forward. >> it is also expensive for government, because if people have $5 in personal wealth if you are sick or divorced or miss, you know a week of work, guess who picks that up? taxpayers. >> yes. >> and the dependency on the state is not good for anybody. not good for the individual or society to have large numbers of people dependent on the state for emergencies, but if the wealth is functionally zero, there are few alternatives to state dependency which becomes problematic, and another thing is a important that you raise, melissa, this is story not about race or black and white but class as well, because one of the interesting things in the study was that you found that when blacks and whites are actually starting from the same position in terms of how much wealth they have, the outcome of the additional dollars is very much more nearly equal. the problem is that race and class are so correlated that most african-americans are starting at a lower income threshold and therefore each additional dollar is thrown into immediate needs as opposed to accumulating long term wealth and capital. >> when you talk about, and we started the conversation with government, right, and the important thing is that government had an active role in creating the gap in the first place and not just the extreme circumstance of slavery, but also when it came to homeownership, there was a system to get an fha loan if you were white, but not african-american, and so the government created the gap. so when talking about fixing the gap, the government has the ability to fix the gap and through the policies that the government enacts, and when you say it is all about the family or what this person chooses to do or not to do, you have to ask what policy is going to be put in place to change this gap, because it helped to create it, and certainly, it can fix it. >> well, senator jeff sessions has something to say about that, and when we come back, aim going to lose my mind, because what he had to say about that was distressing and more on the claim of senator jeff sessions that had all of us in nerdland asking if the man can add. that is next. 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[ male announcer ] we'll be with him all day as he goes back to taking tylenol. i was okay, but after lunch my knee started to hurt again. and now i've got to take more pills. ♪ yup. another pill stop. can i get my aleve back yet? ♪ for my pain, i want my aleve. ♪ [ male announcer ] look for the easy-open red arthritis cap. republican senator jeff sessions is of alabama recently raised some eyebrows when he released a document that implied that federal benefits give low income families a higher standard of living than middle income households. and the case is welfare and sou sounds a little bit like r reagan's queen welfare myth, but this time it was statistics and here is where he got creative. here is the graphic that he posted to the budget committee oversight back in november showing that the pay per day and per hour exceeds median income. and those are getting right over you, americans, and who is helping them? the evil government. not so muchk except for the budget por priority and policies crunched the numbers saying it is deeplyly flawed saying that overstates the assistance that poor households receive like nursing homes and welfare and this is a taste of what is wrong with sessions, and what he is saying. how can we attack the problem of poverty seriously if people like the senator are going to inflate the stats to fit their argument? how do we take this seriously? i am here look at the study and longitudinal and sessions says, no, too much to the poor. >> can i say so many problems that went about this, and it is important to dig into it, because it is shocking and a total mean on the right and you have talk radio doing it, and i said about poverty on twitter the other day, and it is payments to welfare and part of the problem is the definition of welfare. and half of it is medicare which half of it goes to payments of hospitals and doctors and providers go to end of life care for very sick and dying middle income people who shield or spend down their assets to be able to afford long term care, because we don't have a system in this country, but when it come air pairs to the average income, it does not say that sponer soed health care is part of the average income, and the money to the schools and the communities on the average middle-class sort of side is part of that. it also does a ridiculous thing where it counts the programs that go to people above the poverty line and then puts the denominator only below the poverty line. and finally, it creates a lie that we have an incredibly welfare state which is an important undercurrent of the war or government and the deficit hysteria, because if the government does not mean faa and food inspection s s to people, big gilded checks going to undeserving people, then yeah, i might be more supportive of the radical anti-government agenda, but when people under the po poverty line receive means tested benefits, it still does not let them crest above the poverty line. >> and not close to the poverty line and even when we look at the things that are close, and tiaff has been closed since 1986, and part of what is going on there is that wages have decreased. and part of the reason he is able to show that is because in fact the working poor are the working poor and that is not an indication that we are generous, but it is an indication that we are not generous. >> right. part of it goes back to the bloomberg cover where you have the same mean being run out where it is people greedy for stuff. >> yes. >> and getting more stuff. but here's a little bit of perspective because annually in the united states we spend $4 billion investing in individual wealth creation, and the huge majority of that goes to the top 1% and 5% and mostly in the form of mortgage interest deduction and pension policy. in fact, if budgets really reflect priorities, we spend more money in the united states subsidizing homeownership for the middle-class and the well to do than we do for the people who are poor and need shelter. >> well, that is right. first of all, i will say that i am profoundly shocked that a politician in washington would use misleading statistics to advance a talking point, and that is shocking, and neither the liberals nor the conservatives ever use bogus figures. >> and it is hard to teach that at the college level, because students say facts can say anything. but that is true. >> and on this particular question, the point that you made is exactly right that if we are going to seriously look at concerns about fiscal discipline and concerns about the deficit, we have a tendency to focus whether we are on the left or the right, and either on the poor and the wealthy as the people who are the problem. those are not the problem. honestly where we are spending money is on massive middle-class entitlements, social security and medicare predominantly benefit middle-class people and they are good programs that ser ave good purpose, but the fact that people on welfare are sucking up the money is not true. it is a fant city. it is not the poor -- >> it is the old. >> well, it is not just the poor, and the old, but that is where the money is in terms of government spending is for entitlement programs that will benefit middle-class people. >> it is tough to build a political coalition against the old, but it is easier to build a coalition against the poor. >> well, i will say that even if you look at sessions' numbers from his perspective, the message is senator, do your job, because we need more jobs. ultimately if he is right, then it means that congress should be working to make sure that there are more job opportunities, and therefore increasing the opportunities for middle-class. but they are not doing that. they are entering into the sequester to ensure fewer opportunities. >> talk about the sequester, because it feels not only fewer job opportunities, but the discussion just before the break, you cannot earn your way out of the wealth gap, and you can close the gap with the income earnings, but not out of the wealth gap. what kind of policy can we talk about that is politically feasible that can in fact move us toward narrowing the wealth gap and not just making the people of the top floor. >> well, anything is politically feasible, but it takes time to change the conversation about the issues. and i want you to know that i'm a defendant and supporter of the low income housing trust fund and this is an idea that we have talked about on the show, that ends homelessness in a period of 5 to 10 years if it were fully funded. the policy is out there, and the opportunity out there, and you think big, but you can't start with the decision that individuals are making bad decisions. the president gets a bad rap on a lot of the things that he does, but he is taking steps to move some of the systemic issues. for instance the department of hud put out a disparate rule that means that you don't have to have intentional discrimination to prove in court that it is happening, but instead, system is s thes that t mean to discriminate that harm people, and that is what happening in the housing market right now. >> yes, because housing and race are so connected. we will stay on this, and i have to tell you, if you thought they was mad at scalia or sessions? well, wait until i tell you about the folks at indiana. thu etting rid of dark spots will restore even skin tone? think again. introducing olay professional even skin tone. developed by experts in skin genomics to target 5 major causes of uneven skin tone and help restore even color. olay professional even skin tone. wears off. [ female announcer ] stop searching and start repairing. eucerin professional repair moisturizes while actually repairing very dry skin. the end of trial and error has arrived. try a free sample at eucerinus.com. the end of trial and error has arrived. do we hano.a mower? a trimmer? no. we got nothing. we just bought our first house, we're on a budget. we're not ready for spring. well let's get you ready. very nice. you see these various colors. we got workshops every saturday. yes, maybe a little bit over here. this spring, take on more lawn for less. not bad for our first spring. more saving. more doing. that's the power of the home depot. get ready for spring with this ryobi 18-volt trimmer, just ninety- nine bucks. ♪ shimmy, shimmy chocolate. ♪ shimmy, shimmy chocolate. ♪ we, we chocolate cross over. ♪ yeah, we chocolate cross over. ♪ [ male announcer ] introducing fiber one 80 calorie chocolate cereal. ♪ chocolate. 80 calorie chocolate cereal. ♪ ♪ no two people have the same financial goals. pnc works with you to understand yours and help plan for your retirement. visit a branch or call now for your personal retirement review. i've always had to keep my eye on her... but, i didn't always watch out for myself. with so much noise about health care... i tuned it all out. with unitedhealthcare, i get information that matters... my individual health profile. not random statistics. they even reward me for addressing my health risks. so i'm doing fine... but she's still going to give me a heart attack. we're more than 78,000 people looking out for more than 70 million americans. that's health in numbers. unitedhealthcare. remember when florida governor rick scott took office and made drug testing welfare recipients a thing, and any and all florida residents receiving benefits from temporary benefits and families would have the privilege of urinating in a cup because of scorick scott. but now in alabama, the idea of testing welfare recipients is still catching on. so now we have in indiana a propo proposal to order people to have written drug tests pass ed ed be house of representatives so they know that you are not allowed to take the urinalysis so they will ask you, do you need a drink to steady your nerves in the morning and that is about to be the answer yes for me if i keep dealing with this. seriously, this feels like intrusive in a level that is appalling, and it is all about these unworthy poor people. >> and it should not be difficult to pass an exam that says, are you on crack? you could say no, and that qualifies you. >> but i work for the government. >> and the idea is that the written drug test is somewhat absurd. >> well, so the written test and this idea if we were to talk about in part going to your idea of so many of the government benefits are invisible, right? so should students at a state university before they can enroll for school have to take a drug test at the beginning of every single semester, because they are getting state benefits, and should seniors have to take a drug test before they get their medicare. >> well, most of the students would not qualify and it would be the end of college. >> yes, in america. >> and it would shut down the whole louisiana state university system. >> and seriously, if you are under 21 and even alcohol in your system. >> i am a graduate of louisiana state university and i resent that, because i do not believe that every student at louisiana state university would fail a drug test. i must say. >> well, they are filling the classrooms. >> but, look at how we embed these invisible changes in our lives all of the time. and we are beginning to expect that for the so-called welfare clients, but last year we passed the estate tax that exempts $5 million from any taxation to what else? index it to inflation. minimum wage is an index to inflation, and food stamp money and stamp money and nothing else other than security benefits except for the wealthy, we will index for inflation. >> and they are going to have a tiny amount, but it will benefit exponentially the amount of wealth concentrated in the few families who have actually the inher tenss and the s and th inheritance? >> well, maybe we should tax them before they get their inheritance. >> well, it is going to back to the idea that we are giving too much money to the unworthy poor. >> yes, that is ridiculous, because 70% of low income families are working. since the reform of welfare and the ending of welfare as we knew nit 1996, we have seen a time when again flu the fault of, you know, a deregulated wall street, we have an incredible amount of pain in the country and increase in poverty and now 2 of 4 people do not get any kind of cash assistance, and there is also a real fallacy that has been promulgated since the 1980s when our friend justice roberts was working the try to dismantle civil rights from inside of the d.o.j. and i had to add that piece of history, we have seen an idea that equates welfare with color. it is simply not true. the first welfare that we ever had in the new deal was expressively written with social security to not actually include people of coer lo, because it was not eligible, and you were not eligible if you were a domestic worker or farm worker and who is that? when we finally took the racism out of the welfare state of the country with the great society, then you started to see the incredible backlash, but "the new york times" reported that actually, we are seeing a reversal and return back to the racial skewing of the welfare state, and the fact that 22% of african-americans are poor, but only there are only 14% of beneficiarie beneficiaries. 42%, sorry, white americans are 42% of the poor, but receive 69% of the benefits. but if you ask most people listening to talk radio, who is going to be drug test susceptible, it is not the white american. >> okay. and james, i want to give you the last word, because it keeps our marriage healthy. and i want to know, how do we then push back on the notion that poverty and rate is sitting together like that, because it feels like to me when jeff sessions who is from alabama which is the 46th state on poverty and extremely poor state can make these kinds of statements about poverty, it is because of an assumption of people of color. >> well, there is a lot of work to be done, and the first work is really making sure that everybody is clear what the problem is. this study goes a long way in doing that, but the second is that we have to stay strong in litigating the issues, because for the most part the changes in civil rights law over the last several decades, it comes from litigation. that is the opportunity on the small scale to change what is happening on the systemic basis. >> so even though i'm terrified of the supreme courts, we keep fighting. thank you, mr. perry. i will see you later after the show. and the rest of you are coming back. and how michael bloomberg is building himself a little political army. 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[ male announcer ] aspirin is not appropriate for everyone, so be sure to talk to your doctor before you begin an aspirin regimen. i'm a blue-collar worker. to me, bayer aspirin is another tool. go talk to your doctor. you're not indestructible anymore. ♪ tuesday, the race to fill an illinois house seat vacated by jesse jackson, jr. made headlines. the winner of the democratic primary robert kelly became a political star overnight and not just because she won, but how she won. the gun control advocate state representative came from behind to beat former congressman debbie halverson who was backed by the nra. and kelly's past runs right through new york city, and thanks to the city's mayor and avid gun control advocate. the billionaire spent $2 million of his own money to attack kelly's foe. and be assured that that his was not the only money, but it is him positioning himself to the counterweight of the political juggernaut which is the nra. his super pac has become involved in eight state and congressional races since the creation late year, and five of the candidates he backed also supporters of gun control won. kelly understands that the bloomberg support is not really about him. >> he didn't do it on my behalf. i look at it that he did it on behalf of the families around the country. >> that is a lot of praise which is certainly better than things that the last congressman who vacated the seat in illinois was buying with his campaign contributions. yes, i am looking at you jesse, jr., but as much as progressives may be enthusiastic of what is a good billionaire with a super pac countering the influence of bad billionaires with super pacs. let me encourage everybody to pause for a moment, because a he healthy democracy is not for sale. even if you like the guy who is buying. up next, the scathing report that proves that the wealthy really are stacking the deck. a? by the barrelful? the carful? how about...by the bowlful? campbell's soups give you nutrition, energy, and can help you keep a healthy weight. campbell's. it's amazing what soup can do. campbell's. exciting and would always come max and pto my rescue. bookstore but as time passed, i started to notice max just wasn't himself. and i knew he'd feel better if he lost a little weight. so i switched to purina cat chow healthy weight formula. i just fed the recommended amount... and they both loved the taste. after a few months max's "special powers" returned... and i got my hero back. purina cat chow healthy weight. i honestly loved smoking, and i honestly didn't think i would ever quit. 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[ robert ] we created legalzoom to help people start their business and launch their dreams. go to legalzoom.com today and make your business dream a reality. at legalzoom.com we put the law on your side. the title says it all, stacked deck. the dominance of politic by the after flu -- affluent and business undermine the economy of the united states, and that is a study put out by demoes. amy walker is back with us from the cook report, and first i want to turn to the vice president of policy and outreach for demoes heather mcgee, and all right, there is your report, and it turns out that some things apparently are for sale and potentially set government and we know who is buying it. >> yes. we went to look at this question of how it is that something that we have certainly kind of taken for granted now which is the dominance of the politics by the very wealthy, by the mi millionaires and the billionaires who have make up a majority of the cal pain spend big less than 1% who are giving to the campaigns and setting the rules and deciding who can win elections. how does that effect our encoemy? to look at that to unpack it is a lot of political science research that has shown recently that there is a big difference of the way in which particular think wealthy and the rest of the country think not just about climate change or gun control as mayor bloomberg gives you an example of, but it is questions down to the way that the economy is structured and that is where you will see the biggest difference. so, for example, the vast majority of americans believe that no full time worker should work full time and stay in poverty. minimum wage should prevent that. among the wealthy and the donor class, they agree with that. where are we now? in a place where somebody can work full time and still be in poverty. >> so in a certain way the results of the study are not shocking. oh, the wealthy have more influence in politics, really, that is is in and of itself is not shocking. what does feel like a thing that is surprising maybe is the extent to which the interests of the wealthy are mirrored in the policies of the government. it always felt like you would have the people or you would have money and put the people power gaiagainst the money powe and there would be different currencies that you could spend and now there is only one curre currency that you can spend. >> i want to keep beating this horse about polarization, but i want to go to the primaries for one second, because we talked about the donor class, and the poor, and we talked about who elect these people. the conservative republicans can make it through a republican primary, and the liberal democrats can make it through, and the people they talk to are a smaller class than the donor class, and the people that are -- >> and where the liberal democrats? >> they rare up there, but ther is a feedback, because if you talk to the members of congress, they will say, i don't know what you are talking about because everybody says that the deficit is the number one issue. >> well, they are not talking to the voters, but the people they spent one of three minutes to which is the call list. and the problem is that it is shown up in the policy outcomes and take for example the capital gains rate which you can compare to minimum wage. there is a princeton professor -- >> marty gillins. >> well, this is bartel. but the distribution has no impact on the behavior of the elected officials and take that and think of the minimum wage and now look at the donor match and how it impacts those who get a income tax cut, and we have not been able to increase the capital gains and the minimum wage. >> well, there is a real influence of policy by the donor class. and there are other areas where the donor class has been thwarted in the practices. >> the 2012 presidential election. >> yes, right. also, one of the real priorities of the donor class is deficit reduction and we haven't seen a lot of deficit reduction. >> oh, i beg to differ, because we have seen $1.5 trillion in deficit reduction and the deficit reduction completely take away from the political response to the 25 million americans who don't have enough or any work. that is actually a really great example of the difference of the donor class and the rest of ameri america. >> well, i don't believe that anybody would say that we are on a trajectory to the balanced budget where the donor class would like us to be, but we are not. also, the donor class favors liberal policies like gun control. we don't have gun control happening in the country, because of the interests on the other side. there are cases where they are successfulf and some where they are not. you made an excellent point about how it is in primaries where the money can show up and have a huge effect, because primaries are case where is the candidates don't start out with name recognition. >> and greg, i guess what i take issue with is the idea that it is polarization from both sides and the very conservative and the very liberal and mostly, because when we look at how the voting has turned out in congress and even looking at president obama on the one hand, and we have the thwarting of one aspect of the bad billionaires, but the fact is that he had an enormous amount of money thwarted into the campaign and those interests do seem to cross party ideology whether at the top or the democrats or the republicans or the liberals or the conservatives to shore up the economic benefits. >> yes, you will see that in fact that some of the differences in terms of the social issues do fade away when you get to the economic. there is an economic consensus that even more progressive or more progressive wealthy americans actually will not actually feel like corporate regulation is a good idea even though they may favor marriage equality for gay americans. >> and the other thing of the report that is interesting, and i think it goes to the point in some ways about the primaries as well is the dropoff in participation rate in terms of who is voting and who is not. and the people who have wealth are voting more than people who don't. when i say this is who they are hearing from, they go to the town hall meetings, and the people who are showing up at the town hall meetings are not the people who are working or i thought about this at my son's school event, and i knew that everybody there had to have child care and i thought, these are faces who can afford child care, right. and those are the people who show up, and when the representatives come home and i was just at five town hall meetings, and this is what everybody told me, because they are the people who can show up on a wednesday afternoon. >> and even participation cost, because there is a way that the wealth gap costs. so thank you to everybody. tom, an matt and ammy and i feel like romper room. but it is first time for a preview with alex witt. >> well, this is one strange and tragic story, everyone. coming out of florida where a sinkhole apparently swept a man to his death. we are getting more information. and march madness d.c. style, which state is hit with the most sequestration cuts. and what date will congress stop the process. and this is really a fight in 33 years of making and one about the iran hostages and those held captive for 444 days, and you will hear about their new fight. and ben jelous joins us to talk about the supreme court and the voting rights. >> it is a busy week in politics. >> yes. >> thank you, alex. and up next, ben simon our foot so soldier is here live and changing lives every night. it is the one person i am not mad at today on the show, ben simon. eucerin professional repair moisturizes while actually repairing very dry skin. the end of trial and error has arrived. try a free sample at eucerinus.com. [ angry gibberish ] [ justin ] mulligan sir. mulligan. take a mulligan. i took something for my sinuses, but i still have this cough. [ male announcer ] truth is, a lot of sinus products don't treat cough. they don't? [ male announcer ] nope, but alka seltzer plus severe sinus does it treats your worst sinus symptoms, plus that annoying cough. [ angry gibberish ] [ fake coughs ] sorry that was my fault sir. [ male announcer ] alka seltzer plus severe sinus. [ breathes deeply ] ♪ oh, what a relief it is! [ male announcer ] try alka seltzer plus severe sinus day and night for complete relief from your worst sinus symptoms. all the things we love about sunday meals into each of her pot pies. like tender white meat chicken and vegetables in a golden flaky crust that's made from scratch. marie callender's pot pies. it's time to savor. so i can't afford to have germy surfaces. but after one day's use, dishcloths can redeposit millions of germs. so ditch your dishcloth and switch to a fresh sheet of new bounty duratowel. look! a fresh sheet of bounty duratowel leaves this surface cleaner than a germy dishcloth, as this black light reveals. it's durable, cloth-like and it's 3 times cleaner. so ditch your dishcloth and switch to new bounty duratowel. the durable, cloth-like picker-upper. every week we close out our saturday show with a segment we call foot soldiers. we use the space to highlight individuals or small groups that are out there finding new ways to create change and empower others in their own communities. five weeks ago, we brought you the story of ben simon, a senior at the university of maryland college park. ben found a way, through the volunteer power of students, to donate unsold food from his campus dining hall to food banks and shelters in his community. what started in one university soon expanded to 13 campuses around the country. thanks to ben and his friends. and so much has happened to ben and his organization, the food recovery network since we named them our foot soldiers that week that we decided to bring ben in to tell us all about it. hi, ben. the so nice to have you here. >> thank you so much for having me. >> what's been going on the past five weeks? ? we've had a really exciting past five weeks. thank you so much for the exposure. it was our first national tv coverage and we got an amazing outpouring of support from your views. within a week we had 30 to 40 new chapter applications. that's students who applied to start a food recovery network chapter at their college campus. so we got a lot of donations. our facebook page blew up. it was crazy. hitting refresh and having like 200 more likes after like a minute. it was crazy. and just a lot of love. people saying finally you guys are doing something like this. this is amazing. >> one of the things that we loved about what you're doing is that you actually did the research to find out the law that is made it possible. >> right. >> because as you said to us previously, people think they can't. so why is it that people can in fact do something like the food recovery network? >> it's very true. this is a huge issue. misinformation. and people the dining managers and the restaurant managers, grocery store managers, people who are in charge of making that decision whether or not to give the food away or to throw the food away really are widely unaware of this act called the bill emmerson good samaritan act. it's a ball passed in 1996 signed into law by bill clinton. to provides nearly blanket protection for all food donors donating food to somebody in their community. >> that is pretty astonishing. we have a choice in baz, in a university, not to throw away the unused food but instead to redistribute it. if i'm at a university, if i didn't see it the first time and i'm thinking i want to do that what's the process other than liking you on the facebook page? >> have them get in touch with us. anybody can shoot an e-mail to food recovery.org. but usually the new chapter process starts with students. it can start with the dining hall managers. that's great, too. but typically we have to find a group or four or five committed students who get in touch with us. we send them what's called a new chapter tool kit. basically through a series of weekly conference calls coach them through starting a new chapter. >> you guys are building out from a campus totally volunteer organization into something else. what is it? >> so that's absolutely right. so we started in september 2011 at the university of maryland college park. we're now at actually 18 different college campuses. and that's actually a huge announcement they didn't get a chance to mention was that in the past five weeks since that coverage we've been able to start five new chapters. that's like a chapter a week. so we're really really having incredible explosive growth. and what we realize is that we needed to do this full time. this is an amazing amazing thing that needs to exist. we can't keep wasting all this food. so currently we have a national leadership team of about eight students at different college campuses working about anywhere from 5 to 20 hours a week just volunteering on the project to make it happen. but we're fundraising right now for our first full time budget and professionalizing the non-profit profit to go full time. >> now you're going to do good, in a way that brings in volunteers, people in the community, but you're also going to become job creator, right? >> exactly. >> that's pretty extraordinary. in fact it makes me want to introduce you to msnbc's president phil griffin. because we have one of the things we're very proud of here at 30 rock is the new nbc universal dining hall. i got me to thinking i wonder what's going on with our food upstairs. >> if you haven't heard of something chances are you guys are probably throwing out your extra food at the end of the day. we would love to help you out. >> yeah. maybe you and phil could have a conversation later. thank you to ben simon. the work you're doing is extraordinary. i love the idea of a chapter a week. that will be 52 by the end of the year. that's a great thing. that's our show for today. thanks to you at home for watching. by the way a very happy birthday to michelle's mom marie. i will be back tomorrow morning at 10:00 a.m. eastern when we dive deep into corporate greed. that's right, the bp trial. and i got one more little angry rant. you know that c word tweet that rocked the world on oscar nights? i got something to say about that. coming up, "weekends with alex witt." 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