♪ >> from our studios in new york city, this is "charlie rose." ♪ >> today, the senate intelligence committee released a highly controversial government document. it is called the feinstein report. it is the result of a five-year investigation into the cia detention program for the years following the 9/11 terror attacks. those who have read it say it is a damning indictment of the cia use of enhanced interrogation. the report claims that such techniques were far more brutal than previously revealed and concludes that the agency oversight of those activities was inadequate, and in spite of its metallic, enhanced interrogation did not lead to actionable intelligence. diane feinstein spoke from the senate floor about her decision to release the report. by ourory will judge us commitment to a just society governed by law and a willingness to face an ugly truth and say never again. many who disagree with feinstein's decision. cia officials who have reviewed the reports say it does not paint an accurate picture of their activities and that the intelligence they obtained help head off terror attacks and that any excesses detailed in the report ended years ago. they also said the release of such incendiary information could spark violence abroad. it could even, they say, cost american lives. former president george w. bush spoke to cnn. >> we are fortunate enough to work hardnd women who at the cia, serving on our behalf. these are patriots, and whatever the report says, if it diminishes their contributions to our country, it is way off base. >> we have covered both sides of the debate many times on this program. at the core, it has to do with humanity and torture. told menley mcchrystal in 2014 he is not a believer in enhanced interrogation techniques. >> the point is i think sometimes you get good intelligence, sometimes you do not. the effect it has on you. i think when you become the it has were -- torturer, a corrosive effect over time. i think you move down a path that is difficult to come back from, and i think that happens to individuals involved, and i think it happens to the forest. >> however, here is what former vice president dick cheney had to say in june of this year. >> we were there in extorting very circumstances, and i took a lot of positions, positions i still hold, that generated criticism. enhanced interrogation techniques. and i do not hesitate to defend what we did. >> and this is what former cia --said director mike earlier this year. >> the people who said it was not effective want this to be easy. legal and effective. then you get to the morality question. you get to the question of is it ok to do these kinds of things to other human beings, and reasonable people can differ on that, and there is a reasonable debate to be had, what it is very important, i think, for the american people to understand that when you have that debate about whether it is ok to do this to other human beings, you also have to have the debate about the flip side of the coin, charlie, which is if you don't use these techniques, americans are going to die. what is the morality of that question? >> joining me from washington is peter baker, the chief correspondent for the new york times, and also david ignatius. david, let me begin with you. what is the white house attitude about this? the president wanted this released, and for what reason? >> they said they wanted it released and set transparency is important, a way of turning the corner, but at the same time, as you saw the president said in his written statement that he put out today, he does not want to refight old arguments. he wants this to be the finale of this debate, which really has been raging for about a decade in this country. he wants people to understand that he considers these techniques to be wrong, and he has abandoned those under in order he signed in 2009, and we will not be going back to them again. he does not want to spend time litigating what happened under the last administration. >> what does diane feinstein think about this? >> she spent five years looking into this, and it is no doubt the most comprehensive version about what we have seen about the issues with this program, but she wanted to get out there in public so that people understood what happened, what did not happen, and to make sure it does not happen again. you know, vice president joe biden was asked whether this was a stain on our reputation, and he said it was the opposite, it was a state of honor for coming out and owning up to ms. x, and there is another side -- owning up to mistakes, and there is another side. at the cia, they see this as a partisan report and a way of deflecting attention from lawmakers who said they were briefed and now want to pretend they had nothing to do with it. >> david, you know the cia better than anyone i know. as a columnist and reporter. they have said to me that they think they had legal authority to do what they did, that they disclosed what they did, and they think that the report is neither fair nor complete. >> there is no question that former agency officials, current agency officials, like the director, john brennan, think that this is a tendentious, a case for the prosecution. they feel they were given authority from the beginning. indeed, they requested the justice department legal opinion, saying that the 12 techniques that their consultants had advised them to use word legal. there is a passage in the report that describes how condoleezza rice was briefed on those 12 techniques, and the justice department decision, but the president was not to be briefed himself. forst say, charlie, even people who followed this issue carefully over the years, this report is absolutely riveting. it is painful to read. people were read it, i think, with some of the sense of anguish that the people involved in the program felt at the time. some of the most poignant passages were about medical offices from the cia, about younger cia employees watching the early waterboarding of detainees, watching as people were treated in these ways, welling up with tears. one man says, basically, i cannot continue with this. it is a train wreck. you read over this dark history over these few years i think with a motion -- with the motion, and the hope is by putting it out with eviscerating detail, finally it may be possible to put this behind us. >> is that the idea, somehow we i amome clewaar on this -- not saying come clean, but come and what the, president thinks is the responsible thing to do in an international emergency? what's it is that, charlie, to finally make a full accounting -- i think there are aspects of this report that are tootendentious, that try har. -- too hard. that really would draw a bright light forever in american history to say never do this again, and this report is so powerful, it may have accomplished what she hoped. also, questions are raised as to the effectiveness of torture. to beget a conclusion in this, peter, about whether it accomplishes the purpose -- do we get a conclusion? whether we should do it, and whether it was legal at the time? >> right, that was one of the questions, but there is sort of a morality question, is it the right and to do, but then there is a more important question in some ways, the efficacy, do you get out of it what you want to get out of it, and what this report concludes is that the cia has vastly overstated the intelligence it got out of the program, that, in fact, it outlines 20 case studies where the cia has outlined results of the program that helped thwart attacks or otherwise put them ahead of the ball in the war against al qaeda, and they then dissect those case studies and say, no, in fact, they do not get out of it what they said they got out of it, or they could have gotten it from other sources or gotten it in other ways, and they question the whole value of that program from start to finish. agree withs not that, and that is a really interesting point. you have cia in there, who was the director of the cia, an appointee of president obama, and he agrees with the president in banning it, but he says there was value in the program and that we should not condemn the cia officers who were involved in it, because they were doing what they were told to do and told was legal, so you have this positioning with the president caught between these two points of view. >> peter, i thank you so much for coming in. i know you are on deadline, and i know you are writing, but thank you again. >> thank you, charlie. always good to be with you. speak to this -- david, speak to this. can they make the case? and finally, were they given the opportunity to make the case to this committee? david? >> this question of effectiveness i think is the hardest for an outsider to evaluate. the committee makes this very prosecutorial case with a 20 cases, saying in each instance where intelligent value -- intelligence value was obtained, the intelligence could have been obtained in other ways. the officers who read the report, all 6000 pages of it, in fact, say the way that the committee has organized the intelligence amount to cherry picking and that their arguments about those 20 cases is not convincing. they look back, done with hindsight, and they find that thing that could have told you what you ended up getting. a good example was the intelligence that led to targeting osama bin laden in abbottabad. agency officers say no matter what you decide about the moral question, the value of the intelligence gained from harsh interrogation in identifying who the courier was, abu ahmed al-kuwaiti, who was servicing , it isen in abbottabad not clear that that would have emerged without these interrogations. that is an argument, a dispute about fax. historians will pick over that. and valuable that i think this report is, it is not the kind of judgment that historians would make. it leaves out the context, what it felt like to be the director of the cia when you were receiving if the threat the day it was believed a second wave of attacks was coming, that the second wave might have radiological attacks. there, andlly not also the argument that former officials like george tenet make, they were never asked to comment, discuss, explain these issues. you know, you don't want to have a prosecution. you never have a newspaper story where you make accusations and don't get the person who is being charged a chance to respond, and i think that is a legitimate criticism of the report, people should have a chance to answer the charges against them. >> why did they not do that? >> they argued at the time that they were compiling the report, legal investigations were still going on, that it was not appropriate, and they also argue that they looked carefully through all of the george tenet statements made by key people, such as george tenet and former directors -- looked through all of the statements made by key people, such as george tenet and directors at the fbi. i think it is fair to say that, hey, you should have given us a chance to respond. have put embassies and the like on a kind of alert. what is the expectation? what are they worried about? >> charlie, that is one of the tough parts of this. as we know from news reporting, secretary of state john kerry telephoned the senate intelligence committee chairwoman, senator feinstein, and said, we have warnings from foreign leaders that they fear an uptick in violence if this report is leaked, and so, people have been calling the united states, expressing concern about what might happen. obviously, from reading our morning newspapers, we know the middle east is in a very fragile, delicate state right now. you have a coalition trying to fight isis that is very shaky, just trying to stand up, and this report could weaken and destabilize it. you have an iraqi government similarly that is very fragile, and who knows what effect the report will have? even given all of those points, the idea that you could indefinitely suppress information like this, it just does not hold up to me, and what senator feinstein said this morning on the senate floor was there are always arguments for delay. the middle east will be unstable at any point in the future you can think of, so let's go ahead and get this out and make a item of it. >> there are things in here that you could not even imagine writing? >> charlie, what struck me, and what i think makes this a document worth your viewers of it. is the human side the cables sent back from the first use of waterboarding , sentt an al qaeda member back by a medical officer who was assigned in trying to account what it was like in the .oom as waterboarding was used this was a doctor. this was a person who never could imagine he would be in this situation. ,ther poignant, human examples both of the cia officers involved and with the detainees, and then you read this -- it is the kind of thing that is so nightmarish, it is hard to believe that in our recent history at all it actually happened. this is not an episode of "honmeland." this really happened, and you did notow, i am glad i have to make the decisions these people made, and, wow, i am glad we did not do this. here, and dawson is she stars in a new film alongside chris rock. it is called "top five." " says itd reporter allows dawson to reveal a comic range we have not seen before. here is the trailer for the film. ♪ >> what's up? .his is andre allen when i listen to the radio, i listen to sirius hits 1. >> that is good. make it funnier. >> funnier? >> put a little stank on it. but yes. >> wassup, [beep]? this is [beep] andre allen. [beep] or scratch my nuts, that is -- >> the first cut was good. >> they voted him the funniest man in america. by 2010, the former standup hit it big, with "hammy the bear 1," "2," and "3." >> it is hammy time. see him getting married to reality star eric along. rica long. funny anymore. but i just want a decent story. give me a couple of honest things, i will be more than fair. >> this is chelsea brown. >> i am going to turn over like an apple pie. >> you just ate an apple pie. >> things never change. a black man trying to get a cab in new york city. taxi, taxi? do you think the wedding is hurting me? >> are you kidding me? >> what is going on? >> in the conference room. ♪ you just skip those questions and go right to something? >> all right, why aren't you funny anymore? >> she is hysterical. >> this is my town. anything you know, that me know. of ties.married a lot i was not into the wedding. i should have been into the guy, as you should be into the girl. z, my top fine is jay, na scarface, and then i might let biggie get in there. my sixth is ll cool j. >> i need something. i have got a lock on them. [laughter] >> welcome. >> thank you so much. it is great to be here. but how long have you known chris rock? >> 16 years now. relationship. >> we agree to disagree a lot. we have a very good banter, which i think really translates to this movie. it has been interesting to us for many, many years, and i hope other people find it so. >> you are different people. >> we are very different people, but we are also alike. he is a feminist in his own way and an activist in his own way, and he does stand up, and i love that. he pushes people to think about things he would not otherwise think about. he forces them to laugh at things that they could not fathom laughing at, and because he has an incredible perspective on things, and perspective is something that i hold very dear. i like people looking at the world around them and making observations, comparing ideas, and he has already done that in a really brilliant way, and i love that. he makes me think and makes me laugh. he pushes me. he challenges me. he is awesome. >> he wrote this with you in mind. >> i know. >> what was it about you that you think he was writing to? >> that i carry hot sauce in my purse? that you would challenge? that you had your own mind? >> very much so. i think he likes the way that we have kind of gotten to know each other over the years and talk, and the things that i appreciate . i especially really loved his documentary, "good hair." i love the kind of father he is, and he jokes that he felt that this was a movie that if he did not direct and do really great that no one would let him direct anymore, so he really brought it. he really pushed it to you and he was not going to call his friends and bring them onboard for something he thought was a sinking ship. he really had high aspirations for it, and that is why he wanted me on board. >> it is a judgment that he finally is as good in a movie that he is as good as he is in standup. paying as much attention to it as he does with standup. >> he worked on the script for three years before hand. when you watch his stuff, he is really seamless about watching is special and see him cutting between, different outfits, listening to him tell a joke, and he is so familiar with the way he is and his demeanor, it seems like he is telling that joke for the first time, but he has done that joke 100 times before he shared it. not looking like chris rock in the movie, but actually being think there and i was an enough familiarity and there that he is a comedian, an actor, and give him the benefit of the doubt, but on top of that, he was doing "m -- with a an incredibles play. he was working with an acting coach, and he was determined to not be chris rock at all times. he was, i am writing this, producing this, and i am acting in this, and i do not want any part to be misconstrued or wrong or done in a way that i dialed in because i was busy doing something else. lee's call me on it, and that was one of the things when he first approached me with the role -- please call me on it. i said, congratulations, well done, have fun with that. wait a minute, you have to be in this movie with me. and my grandmother had passed two years before, and i had just done a slew of movies, from "give me shelter" to "sin city ," and there is something about taking the time and my brother said, you will be home in new york with family, working with your friend, and talk to him. if you want to have some input in this character, i am sure he would rather have you collaborate rather than just say no, and i sat and talked to chris about this ad nausea him, and he said i auditioned him for his own movie, and i am not used to doing comedy, and i was, like, nervous. this was a lot. sawhelsea, when you first her in the script, and after you tweaked her to become what you thought she was -- >> he had a really good basis for her, because he did write this for me. there was a lot that i felt connected to and really familiar with, but i wanted to push it. you're going to have this woman who is shadowing this man around all day, and she is a fan of his, and she is also a single mom, and she is sober, and she has real issues and things in goingfe, she is not just to take it when he says, yes, quitting drinking alcohol had no effect on my career, and this relationship is doubly great, and there is no problems with it. and i was not going to walk away from this experience and say, i wish i had pushed him harder. in fact, i work for the new york times, and you need me. this movie is going to fail without me doing some kind of review. you are going to let me push you, and she takes advantage, and i like that she goes toe to toe with him, and i wanted to push that as far as possible. >> as a director, how is he? what's amazing, actually. that was one of those things, you know, when you are about to work with a friend, -- >> amazing. that was one of those things come you know, when you're about to work with a friend. i know my drama, and i bite my nails and get very nervous, but he goes, this is going to be very funny. you will work again and be able to show your face in daylight and have hot sauce in public. trust me, i know my comedy, and i felt like what is so different about us and what is so great about us was that much more developed and that much more does not fighte you. it is not like he had all of these incredible talents on there and was trying to show he was the big five. there was not like this -- i am sure he has got a huge ego, but he wanted everyone to be their greatness, and that is why there are no cameos in this movie, because everyone has a shining solo moment, and he pushed that for me, and it was amazing. the protector. he was not the director. he was the protector. he protected his friends, the locations. i called him the conductor. all of these incredible instruments, i mean tracy morgan, whoopi goldberg, adam union,, gabrielle amazing, amazing, amazing people, and he would go, let them hit that high note, and just when you thought, ok, they are feeling please, they are starting to run out of breath, and he was, keep it going. the guy with his back to the audience, not on camera right now, he knows how far he can push you, and he gets that out of everybody, and he did that with every single person, and he did not back off. they say in his previous films, he would do a show after or during, and he would save his jokes for that special he was going to do, and he did not do that. he said, i am going to put everything in it, and i want all of you to do the same, and we did it. >> your deal was drama. his field has been comedy. was this drama or comedy? >> i agree with them. this was drama with a lot of jokes. but it is really hard-hitting and very raw. this was a film because we did not do it with a big studio and didn't more independently, he could make this sort of very m, and he couldil go there and have jokes and take things in certain directions that probably we would not have been able to do if there were several chefs in the kitchen going, we have to do it this way. >> there was one chef in the kitchen, the producers scott rudin. chris had worked with him before, and chris said, i never went to you before with anything, but this movie is really special, and i want to make it in new york and with the locations and actors i want. and it is going to be really, really special, and will you back to me, and scott saw it and said yes, it was great. scott would be there every single day. he would have assistants t property, and it was 24/7. the man does not sleep. they would be talking and laughing, and anytime there was an issue, you went to chris, and chris was really on top of it and on point, but scott was just there, and he is not saying any fair, -- anything, and he would say, that is not going to cut, and he would look back down, and there are all of these people in a frenzy going, how did he see that? that was not his assistants. he is brilliant. it was him. he has the notoriety he has because he has earned it. >> you see him as a filmmaker making films he is not in. >> 100%. i think that is one of those things -- not that no breaks or woody allen ever did that, but i think he is following in that lead of great comedians who can a that very proudly, being proper director. >> clint eastwood is, as well. >> and mel gibson and a lot of people who have turned, you know, and you talk to people, work onlpy, who can both sides. angelina jolie is doing it right now. he is definitely one of those, because he has got a voice and stories he wants to tell. he is got a perspective he wants to share. >> what does rosario want? >> everything. i have a lot of things that i do all of the time. i did take that break that i needed after this movie. i am glad i did not do it before this movie. i did it after. i got to end on a really high note. after this film. >> what did you learn? >> it was not like i had so much of a break. i have a latino organization that turned 10 years old, and i work with a girls club, and i have a company i just started in ghana that we are using as a social enterprise to make impact in there. i was notnot like working, but i just did not do stuff in front of the camera so much, and that was amazing. i like producing. i like erecting. i like writing. i like singing. i like a lot of things -- i like erecting. -- directing. a new game coming out right now, called "arkham about thatd i am all right now. that is going to be my christmas. >> you are going to give it or receive it? >> i am going to buy it to myself and then lend it to my is nice.maybe, if he there are people in my life, it jane fonda, and people i have had a chance to meet, like maya angelou, and these women wear their life. they enjoy their life every step of the way. i was talking to pat mitchell, and she said it gets better. i want to be in my life in my 50's and 60's, and i watch "trip to bountiful" with sicily tyson tyson, and if i stay sane enough, i can do it until i die. a story. tell >> absolutely. you can do it on your cell phone now. someone.weet to it is so amazing, the connection. i am enjoying it and rolling with it. " goes wide on friday, december 12. back in a moment. stay with us. ♪ ♪ >> anonymous is among the biggest online vigilante groups, and its members break into the computer systems of companies and governments. of themonsegur was one most effective operatives, instrumental in cyber attacks, including visa, mastercard, sony, and the u.s. senate. in 2011, he infiltrated the tunisian government website in support of protesters at the height of the air of spring. later that year, he was apprehended after hacking into an fbi affiliate. he became an informant, allowing the government to launch his actions as he engaged in hacking activities with his former peers. the fbi says he has helped them prevent more than 300 cyberattacks in systems controlled by the military and nasa. i sat down him recently for his first television interview, and here is that conversation. how old were you when you saw your first computer? >> i saw my first computer when i was probably eight or nine. it is when i lived in ithaca, new york, for a while, and it was cool, because i was bored. it was during the summer, and there is nothing to do there. i had no friends and no family, so it was basically my family inside of a little house, and we were there pretty much all day, every day, and it so happens that i think my father or his .ife saw an ad or knew somebody they were pretty much giving away a computer, an old apple system. it had an old dot matrix printer, and i was sitting there in front of it, and i wondered. this was something relatively foreign to me, so i was tinkering with the system and learning how it functions. escape, escape from the current situation we were going through. >> so you were self-taught. >> absolutely. around me were into something, but it wasn't computers. passion then? i mean, once you had that idle ,ime, and you had that device didn't feel like, my god, this is the best thing that ever happened to me -- did it feel that way? >> absolutely. post to it. i felt i could create, which was one of the most interesting things. i was eight years old. anduld create a document printed out the thousand times, waste paper. it might seem ridiculous, but he gave me the idea -- ability to create something. >> how did you go about hacking? >> we were poor, and i needed a way to get online, and in those days, getting online meant credit cards, and you had to pay some kind of service provider, so i needed to find a way where it would be cheap or free, so i needed a way to access the internet at would not be a burden to my grandmother, who was really poor, and also, growing up, i watched films like " wasgames," and "war games an old-school school film. even ones like "hackers" or "sneakers," so my interest was piqued when i could get online continuously without interruption. >> you were known as "sabu." that name,hose probably around 1997. before that, i had a different name, a random name, which i forgot. name of a the professional wrestler. >> yes, i used to watch him with my father, before my father went to prison. my father and i would sit there and watch ecw at 2:00 in the morning, and the coolest guy was the guy jumping off of buildings and doing reckless things, and his motto was homicidal, genocidal, and remind you, while he is doing that, he is jumping i amuildings, and while hacking, i decided i needed a moniker, a pseudonym, and i is prettyhis sabu interesting. >> tell me about anonymous. >> well, anonymous is or should be an idea. anonymous was an idea, an idea where we can all be anonymous. we can all work together as a crowd, united. we could rise and fight against oppression. that is what anonymous is. .> and then there was lulzsec >> yes, lulzsec you could say was more of a mistake. it was a group that had to be created, because what we wanted to do was something that many anonymous members were not ready for, they were not accepting of it. at the time, anonymous was more focused on like social protesting and low scale hacking. they were not thinking outside the box. hack,e we did a certain we gained a lot of attention, note o'reilly, because it was a ariety, because it was media. , because waszsec anonymous, they did not want to feel the heat. it was actually exciting. it depends on your goal, obviously. if you are hacking to learn, the thrill is proving your concept. we call these "proof of concept," "poc." once you could prove your concept, then you have that thrill. >> give me an idea of a concept. >> if you are trying to prove an exploit, kind of like a mathematician who proves a theory. they would create an algorithm. and if it works, if it checks out with his colleagues, then that is a success. in the case of an exploit, you find a vulnerability in a web application or some sort of software. >> tell me how you operated. how many hacks did you do? what was the biggest question mark >> my biggest hack to me, that actually did something, was when i resuscitated in operation tunisia, when i help to the tunisian people get the revolution. you know, i help to the people. >> that started the air of spring. >> yes, the air of spring started in tunisia, -- the arab spring started in tunisia. of whether i was at home in the lower east side, in the projects, behind a computer. >> how did that make you feel? >> wonderful. it felt great. i felt like i could finally do something that is going to help people. it was just hard. that is a long way, using social media and using hacking to influence a revolution. and targeting companies so that there is monetary gain. >> absolutely. >> two a different things. you did both. >> you could say that. i had access to the companies, and when you get access to the companies, you have access to their database. the credit cards are right there. it is not about chasing them down and looking for the credit cards. you break into the machine, and you have access to the credit cards, so, yes, i had access to the credit cards. >> how and when did you know the fbi was on to you? >> several days or weeks before the rest, because i would come downstairs, take the kids to school, and there is a random con edison truck parked in front of my building. how often do you see a con edison truck parked in the lower east side? >> should have been a indicator, right there. >> do you know what was the greatest indication? >> what? >> the mailman was hanging out with the con edison guy in front of my building, so i knew that something was going on. >> tell us about the night the agents showed up at your door. but it was around 8:00, dark, and they knocked on my door and said, police -- >> it was around it :00, dark, and they knocked on my door and said police. i was pretty sure it was not the police on the door. door, i went to the went to my brother and said, listen, just chill. relax. i have this. and weent to the door, have a whole bunch of fbi agents at the door. there were 14 or 15 of them, and stairs,e going down the doing verticals, and there were some in the hallway, some in suits, and they basically pulled me out into the hallway and said, we are glad you opened the door in time, because we were about to smash it in, and i said, what is the problem? >> that is what you said? >> yes. >> why are you here? >> how can i help you, you know? and they said, we know who you are, right? we know who you are, and we know what you're doing, and we also know you have two kids in the so you cooperate us and we'll be back in the morning, or we will call and take the kids away. it is your call. you make the decision. so it is clear they had an understanding that my weakness -- >> was your kids. >> with the kids. -- was the kids. respect. that was disgraceful, that entire situation. i was in aly, situation where i had to lose these two beautiful girls who were innocent and young and did not have anything to do with any of this. i assist them in creating him urschel complexes that would haunt them for the rest of their lives? -- in creating emotional complexes that would hurt them for the rest of their lives? keep the order to kids, what did you have to do? >> i had to go downtown and cooperate with them. >> how hard was that? >> one of the hardest decisions of my life and also one of the easiest, because the kids were involved. i am not going to chart -- choose a movement of strangers over these girls. >> so you went to work for the fbi. i went to workat for the fbi. it is just that i was forced to have my computer locked by the d by the fbi, and it was difficult. it was very hard, but i was able to manage it. >> the fbi says that you helped 300 prevent more than cyberattacks on our government. >> yes. >> the military. >> yes. >> nasa. what did you do? >> well, here is the interesting part. what i was doing before my arrest was unifying hackers, all right? that is part of what i really did. that is the thing that made me so popular for whatever reason. unifying hackers. the language guys and the hatred between groups and nationalities, so by being someone that iranian hackers and israeli hackers, pakistani accomplishhers, will in their goal on a greater scale, it put me in a situation by the fbi,logged and they got to see hacks in real-time that were taking place against the infrastructure of the united states government, so with that being said, i was able assist in the attacks happening against the government and share it with the government so they could fix these issues. >> but also, you took down how many? eight of the world top hackers? top hackers? >> i did not identify anybody. i did not point my finger at anybody. i did not say, what is your ip address? what is your address? themuld they have gotten otherwise? >> you want to be truthful? absolutely. >> but there was huge advantage in having them on their side. >> yes, because they had the lob from the computer -- the logs from the computer. i was told do what you do but just do not attack any u.s. targets. what was i doing prior to my arrest? i was uniting hackers and activists from around the world, correct? after my arrest, i am doing the same exact thing. unfortunately, now, there is logs. that is the part that hurt the most. >> tell me about jeremy hammond. >> he is an interesting character, not as they portrayed him to be. he was just a random activist who had some hacking skills, and he wanted to be part of lulzsec, just like many of the hackers. was onlytely, lulzsec a team of six, but he hung around with us. end, hezsec met its participated with operation anti-security. >> you know what some of them are saying, they are saying eucharist to them. but that is kind of difficult. that bothers me a little bit. >> they are saying you coerced them. >> that is kind of difficult and bothers me a little bit. what are you doing? let's share that information on twitter. you are telling me that i doingd them, what was i before? nothing has changed. i did not change from what i was doing prior. so, no, there was no coercion. i participated. we worked together. the same as everybody else. >> prosecutors have said you have been cooperating with them. and unusual public disclosure. kind of. from what i gather, doing some research, most informants are top-secret until trial, and if the trial does not happen, they remain secret forever. >> exactly. >> but i never went to trial. ofthe exposure is kind baffling to me. >> you know why? >> i cannot give you their perspective, unfortunately, but i am sure it is some kind of propaganda. how else would you kill a centralized movement with no leaders if you were to say that there was a leader? and its leader was sabu, and he is compromised, by the way. so what happens after my exposure if you paid attention to the social atmosphere of anonymous? panic, fear. back froman to fall participating in anonymous operations. maybe that was their agenda. dissuasive.as it gave people a reason not to participate in anonymous if their so called leader was compromised. >> i assume part of the government attitude was about you, public disclosure, that in the end, we will get you. you cannot hide. behind anonymity. we will get you. look who we got. we caught a big fish. >> yes. and you know what? it was not a matter of them just being sophisticated or them having some technology used to find me. i made mistakes. i made a lot of mistakes. >> that is how people get caught. >> that is how people get caught. >> what is happening right now as we are talking the worst thing that hackers are able to do to the united states? well, that is a good well, that is a good question. there is no thing as security. that being said, airport security. character -- hackers can break right into the airport. .owers systems turn off the lights. water systems, shut them down. water pipelines. they will shut down saudi arabia for a day, and guess what? the price of gasoline will shoot up $20 by tomorrow. the bureau of prisons, where i was locked up at. scatter systems. are controlled by scatter systems, logic controller systems. they can simply open all of me cells across the united states. >> you are saying those are compliments that can be achieved by people who are working today as hackers. -- those are things that can be achieved by people who are working today as hackers. >> it should be an inspiration to the american government to work on our infrastructure. >> to make it more hacker proof? proof.s not hacker it is how we are handling security in this country. it is completely absurd. for example, instead of educating -- let's say this office right here, and we are all government employees, and you are the president. ofyou are in charge security. >> yes, by all means. i will be the security guide. instead of you telling me, hey, hacker, educate everybody about passwords and how to secure their asterisk, because we have sensitive information here we do not want to leak, that is not what happens -- and how to , because we laptops have sensitive information here we do not want to leak, that is not what happens. givell it a company and them a billion dollars, and here become with on tractors. we have a sickening reliance on security contractors, the likes of booz allen hamilton holding companiesx -- mansec, that snowden worked for. security, the people that we , are not tax dollars really secure themselves, so they are at our attack vectors. do you understand? >> i do. it seems like we are in a bad place. >> we are in a bad place. we are in a really bad place, and as time goes on, you are going to continue to hear stories like, oh, the chinese government has infiltrated the post office, or the russian government has infiltrated the sewage system. this is going to continue to happen until we change our perspective on security. we need to stop treating security as a contract job and accept security as a way of life that we need to think about. all right? we all, individually, have the responsibility to focus on our own security. there is no reason why you should have an intern handle your e-mail. you should be able to handle your own e-mail. >> can you imagine this? it is said, and i have no way to judge, that you were really, really good. >> i will leave it up to people to decide. imagine if you had not gone one direction but had ended up in silicon valley? is the problem. i did not end up in silicon valley. i had no connections to the world. wardi was, this young, for reagan guy from the lower east side projects, -- i was this rican guyr, puerto from the lower east side, and i had no education. how was i going to get from there to silicon valley? i tried to get i had my own security company, and that failed, so with no help from anybody, it would have been extremely hard for me to make it. i guarantee you though, had i made it in silicon valley when i was 18, if i had been pointed in the right direction, you and i would be having a completely different conversation. >> thank you, hector. >> thank you. ♪ >> with "all due respect," our people's choice award is not for sale. it can be rented at a reasonable rate. on the show tonight, moveon.org taking a chance they do not pass go. first, mark udall from colorado harshing big time on
>> from our studios in new york city, this is "charlie rose." >> today, the senate intelligence committee released a highly controversial government document. it is called the feinstein report. it is the result of a five-year investigation into the cia detention program for the years following the 9/11 terror attacks. those who have read it say it is a damning indictment of the cia use of enhanced interrogation. the report claims that such techniques were far more brutal than previously revealed and concludes that the agency oversight of those activities was inadequate, and in spite of its brutality, enhanced interrogation did not lead to actionable intelligence. diane feinstein spoke from the senate floor about her decision to release the report. >> history will judge us by our commitment to a just society governed by law and a willingness to face an ugly truth and say never again. >> there are many who disagree with feinstein's decision. cia officials who have reviewed the reports say it does not paint an accurate picture of their activities and that the intelligence they obtained help head off terror attacks and that any excesses detailed in the report ended years ago. they also said the release of such incendiary information could spark violence abroad. it could even, they say, cost american lives. former president george w. bush spoke to cnn. >> we are fortunate enough to have men and women who work hard at the cia, serving on our behalf. these are patriots, and whatever the report says, if it diminishes their contributions to our country, it is way off base. >> we have covered both sides of the debate many times on this program. at the core, it has to do with humanity and torture. gen. stanley mcchrystal told me in 2014 he is not a believer in enhanced interrogation techniques. >> the point is i think sometimes you get good intelligence, sometimes you do not. the reality is the effect it has on you. i think when you become the torturer, it has a corrosive effect over time. i think you move down a path that is difficult to come back from, and i think that happens to individuals involved, and i think it happens to the forest. >> however, here is what former vice president dick cheney had to say in june of this year. >> we were there in extorting very circumstances, and i took a lot of positions, positions i still hold, that generated criticism. enhanced interrogation techniques. and i do not hesitate to defend what we did. >> and this is what former cia deputy director mike hayden said earlier this year. >> the people who said it was not effective want this to be easy. legal and effective. then you get to the morality question. you get to the question of is it ok to do these kinds of things to other human beings, and reasonable people can differ on that, and there is a reasonable debate to be had, what it is very important, i think, for the american people to understand that when you have that debate about whether it is ok to do this to other human beings, you also have to have the debate about the flip side of the coin, charlie, which is if you don't use these techniques, americans are going to die. what is the morality of that question? >> joining me from washington is peter baker, the chief correspondent for the new york times, and also david ignatius. david, let me begin with you. what is the white house attitude about this? the president wanted this released, and for what reason? >> they said they wanted it released and set transparency is important, a way of turning the corner, but at the same time, as you saw the president said in his written statement that he put out today, he does not want to refight old arguments. he wants this to be the finale of this debate, which really has been raging for about a decade in this country. he wants people to understand that he considers these techniques to be wrong, and he has abandoned those under in order he signed in 2009, and we will not be going back to them again. he does not want to spend time litigating what happened under the last administration. >> what does diane feinstein think about this? >> she spent five years looking into this, and it is no doubt the most comprehensive version about what we have seen about the issues with this program, but she wanted to get out there in public so that people understood what happened, what did not happen, and to make sure it does not happen again. you know, vice president joe biden was asked whether this was a stain on our reputation, and he said it was the opposite, it was a state of honor for coming out and owning up to mistakes, and there is another side. at the cia, they see this as a partisan report and a way of deflecting attention from lawmakers who said they were briefed and now want to pretend they had nothing to do with it. >> david, you know the cia better than anyone i know. as a columnist and reporter. they have said to me that they think they had legal authority to do what they did, that they disclosed what they did, and they think that the report is neither fair nor complete. >> there is no question that former agency officials, current agency officials, like the director, john brennan, think that this is a tendentious, a case for the prosecution. they feel they were given authority from the beginning. indeed, they requested the justice department legal opinion, saying that the 12 techniques that their consultants had advised them to use word legal. there is a passage in the report that describes how condoleezza rice was briefed on those 12 techniques, and the justice department decision, but the president was not to be briefed me himself. i must say, charlie, even for people who followed this issue carefully over the years, this report is absolutely riveting. it is painful to read. people were read it, i think, with some of the sense of anguish that the people involved in the program felt at the time. some of the most poignant passages were about medical offices from the cia, about younger cia employees watching the early waterboarding of detainees, watching as people were treated in these ways, welling up with tears. one man says, basically, i cannot continue with this. it is a train wreck. you read over this dark history over these few years i think with emotion, and the hope is by putting it out with eviscerating detail, finally it may be possible to put this behind us. >> is that the idea, somehow we can come clear on this -- i am not saying come clean, but come clear on this, and what the president thinks is the responsible thing to do in an international emergency? >> it is that, charlie, to finally make a full accounting of it -- i think there are aspects of this report that are too tendentious, that try too hard. that really would draw a bright light forever in american history to say never do this again, and this report is so powerful, it may have accomplished what she hoped. >> also, questions are raised as to the effectiveness of torture. do we get a conclusion on this, peter, about whether it accomplishes the purpose? whether we should do it, and whether it was legal at the time? >> right, that was one of the questions, but there is sort of a morality question, is it the right and to do, but then there is a more important question in some ways, the efficacy, do you get out of it what you want to get out of it, and what this report concludes is that the cia has vastly overstated the intelligence it got out of the program, that, in fact, it outlines 20 case studies where the cia has outlined results of the program that helped thwart attacks or otherwise put them ahead of the ball in the war against al qaeda, and they then dissect those case studies and say, no, in fact, they do not get out of it what they said they got out of it, or they could have gotten it from other sources or gotten it in other ways, and they question the whole value of that program from start to finish. the cia does not agree with that, and that is a really interesting point. you have cia in there, who was the director of the cia, an appointee of president obama, and he agrees with the president in banning it, but he says there was value in the program and that we should not condemn the cia officers who were involved in it, because they were doing what they were told to do and told was legal, so you have this positioning with the president caught between these two points of view. >> peter, i thank you so much for coming in. i know you are on deadline, and i know you are writing, but thank you again. >> thank you, charlie. always good to be with you. >> david, speak to this. can they make the case? and finally, were they given the opportunity to make the case to this committee? david? >> this question of effectiveness i think is the hardest for an outsider to evaluate. the committee makes this very prosecutorial case with a 20 cases, saying in each instance where intelligence value was obtained, the intelligence could have been obtained in other ways. the officers who read the report, all 6000 pages of it, in fact, say the way that the committee has organized the intelligence amount to cherry picking and that their arguments about those 20 cases is not convincing. they look back, done with hindsight, and they find that thing that could have told you what you ended up getting. a good example was the intelligence that led to targeting osama bin laden in abbottabad. agency officers say no matter what you decide about the moral question, the value of the intelligence gained from harsh interrogation in identifying who the courier was, abu ahmed al-kuwaiti, who was servicing bin laden in abbottabad, it is not clear that that would have emerged without these interrogations. that is an argument, a dispute about facts. historians will pick over that. as important and valuable that i think this report is, it is not the kind of judgment that historians would make. it leaves out the context, what it felt like to be the director of the cia when you were receiving 50 threats a day it was believed a second wave of attacks was coming, that the second wave might have radiological attacks. that is really not there, and also the argument that former officials like george tenet make, they were never asked to comment, discuss, explain these issues. you know, you don't want to have a prosecution. you never have a newspaper story where you make accusations and don't get the person who is being charged a chance to respond, and i think that is a legitimate criticism of the report, people should have a chance to answer the charges against them. >> why did they not do that? >> they argued at the time that they were compiling the report, legal investigations were still going on, that it was not appropriate, and they also argue that they looked carefully through all of the statements made by key people, such as george tenet and directors at the fbi. i think it is fair to say that, hey, you should have given us a chance to respond. >> they have put embassies and the like on a kind of alert. what is the expectation? what are they worried about? >> charlie, that is one of the tough parts of this. as we know from news reporting, secretary of state john kerry telephoned the senate intelligence committee chairwoman, senator feinstein, and said, we have warnings from foreign leaders that they fear an uptick in violence if this report is leaked, and so, people have been calling the united states, expressing concern about what might happen. obviously, from reading our morning newspapers, we know the middle east is in a very fragile, delicate state right now. you have a coalition trying to fight isis that is very shaky, just trying to stand up, and this report could weaken and destabilize it. you have an iraqi government similarly that is very fragile, and who knows what effect the report will have? even given all of those points, the idea that you could indefinitely suppress information like this, it just does not hold up to me, and what senator feinstein said this morning on the senate floor was there are always arguments for delay. the middle east will be unstable at any point in the future you can think of, so let's go ahead and get this out and make a clean item of it. >> there are things in here that you could not even imagine writing? >> charlie, what struck me, and what i think makes this a document worth your viewers reading is the human side of it. the cables sent back from the first use of waterboarding against an al qaeda member, sent back by a medical officer who was assigned in trying to account what it was like in the room as waterboarding was used. this was a doctor. this was a person who never could imagine he would be in this situation. other poignant, human examples, both of the cia officers involved and with the detainees, and then you read this -- it is the kind of thing that is so nightmarish, it is hard to believe that in our recent history at all it actually happened. this is not an episode of "homeland." this really happened, and you think, wow, i am glad i did not have to make the decisions these people made, and, wow, i am glad we don't do this anymore. >> thank you. we will be back. >> rosario dawson is here, and she stars in a new film alongside chris rock. it is called "top five." she plays a journalist writing a piece on a comedian turned film star. "hollywood reporter" says it allows dawson to reveal a comic range we have not seen before. here is the trailer for the film. ♪ >> what's up? this is andre allen. when i listen to the radio, i listen to sirius hits 1. >> that is good. make it funnier. >> funnier? >> put a little stank on it. but yes. >> wassup, [beep]? this is [beep] andre allen. [beep] or scratch my nuts, that is -- >> the first cut was good. >> they voted him the funniest man in america. by 2010, the former standup hit it big, with "hammy the bear 1," "2," and "3." >> it is hammy time. >> you can also see him getting married to reality star erica long. >> where is my kid? >> do we have to do this on camera? >> i don't feel funny anymore. >> i just want a decent story. give me a couple of honest things, i will be more than fair. >> this is chelsea brown. she is doing a story on me. no snitches. >> i am going to turn over like an apple pie. >> you just ate an apple pie. >> things never change. like a black man trying to get a cab in new york city. taxi, taxi? do you think the wedding is hurting me? >> are you kidding me? >> what is going on? >> in the conference room. ♪ >> why don't you just skip those questions and go right to something? >> all right, why aren't you funny anymore? >> she is hysterical. >> this is my town. anything you need, let me know. >> i got married a lot of times. i was not into the wedding. i should have been into the guy, as you should be into the girl. >> my top fine is jay, naz, scarface, and then i might let biggie get in there. my sixth is ll cool j. >> i need something. i have got a lock on them. [laughter] >> welcome. >> thank you so much. it is great to be here. >> how long have you known chris rock? >> 16 years now. >> define the relationship. >> we agree to disagree a lot. we have a very good banter, which i think really translates to this movie. it has been interesting to us for many, many years, and i hope other people find it so. >> you are different people. >> we are very different people, but we are also alike. he is a feminist in his own way and an activist in his own way, and he does stand up, and i love that. he pushes people to think about things he would not otherwise think about. he forces them to laugh at things that they could not fathom laughing at, and because he has an incredible perspective on things, and perspective is something that i hold very dear. i like people looking at the world around them and making observations, comparing ideas, and he has already done that in a really brilliant way, and i love that. he makes me think and makes me laugh. he pushes me. he challenges me. he is awesome. >> he wrote this with you in mind. >> i know. >> what was it about you that you think he was writing to? >> that i carry hot sauce in my purse? >> that you would challenge? that you had your own mind? >> very much so. i think he likes the way that we have kind of gotten to know each other over the years and talk, and the things that i appreciate. i especially really loved his documentary, "good hair." i love the kind of father he is, and he jokes that he felt that this was a movie that if he did not direct and do really great that no one would let him direct anymore, so he really brought it. he really pushed it to you and he was not going to call his friends and bring them onboard for something he thought was a sinking ship. he really had high aspirations for it, and that is why he wanted me on board. >> it is a judgment that he finally is as good in a movie that he is as good as he is in standup. paying as much attention to it as he does with standup. >> he worked on the script for three years before hand. when you watch his stuff, he is really seamless about watching is special and see him cutting between, different outfits, listening to him tell a joke, and he is so familiar with the way he is and his demeanor, it seems like he is telling that joke for the first time, but he has done that joke 100 times before he shared it. not looking like chris rock in the movie, but actually being andre allen, and i think there was an enough familiarity and there that he is a comedian, an actor, and give him the benefit of the doubt, but on top of that, he was doing "m -- with a hat," which was an incredible play. he was working with an acting coach, and he was determined to not be chris rock at all times. he was, i am writing this, producing this, and i am acting in this, and i do not want any part to be misconstrued or wrong or done in a way that i dialed in because i was busy doing something else. please call me on it, and that was one of the things when he first approached me with the role. i said, "congratulations, well done, have fun with that." and he said, "wait a minute. you have to be in this movie with me." and my grandmother had passed two years before, and i had just done a slew of movies, from "give me shelter" to "sin city" and to "trance," and there is something about taking the time to mourn, and my brother said, "you will be home in new york with family, working with your friend, and talk to him. if you want to have some input in this character, i am sure he would rather have you collaborate rather than just say no," and i sat and talked to chris about this ad nauseam, and he said i auditioned him for his own movie, and i am not used to doing comedy, and i was, like, nervous. this was a lot. >> chelsea, when you first saw her in the script, and after you tweaked her to become what you thought she was -- >> he had a really good basis for her, because he did write this for me. there was a lot that i felt connected to and really familiar with, but i wanted to push it. you're going to have this woman who is shadowing this man around all day, and she is a fan of his, and she is also a single mom, and she is sober, and she has real issues and things in her life, she is not just going to take it when he says, yes, quitting drinking alcohol had no effect on my career, and this relationship is doubly great, and there is no problems with it. and i was not going to walk away from this experience and say, i wish i had pushed him harder. in fact, i work for the new york times, and you need me. this movie is going to fail without me doing some kind of review. you are going to let me push you, and she takes advantage, and i like that she goes toe to toe with him, and i wanted to push that as far as possible. >> as a director, how is he? >> amazing, actually. that was one of those things, you know, when you are about to work with a friend. i know my drama, and i bite my nails and get very nervous, but he goes, this is going to be very funny. you will work again and be able to show your face in daylight and have hot sauce in public. trust me, i know my comedy, and i felt like what is so different about us and what is so great about us was that much more developed and that much more push, because he does not fight you. it is not like he had all of these incredible talents on there and was trying to show he was the big guy. there was not like this -- i am sure he has got a huge ego, but he wanted everyone to be their greatness, and that is why there are no cameos in this movie, because everyone has a shining solo moment, and he pushed that for me, and it was amazing. he says he is the protector. he was not the director. he was the protector. he protected his friends, the locations. i called him the conductor. all of these incredible instruments, i mean tracy morgan, whoopi goldberg, adam sandler, gabrielle union, amazing, amazing, amazing people, and he would go, let them hit that high note, and just when you thought, ok, they are feeling please, they are starting to run out of breath, and he was, keep it going. the guy with his back to the audience, not on camera right now, he knows how far he can push you, and he gets that out of everybody, and he did that with every single person, and he did not back off. they say in his previous films, he would do a show after or during, and he would save his jokes for that special he was going to do, and he did not do that. he said, i am going to put everything in it, and i want all of you to do the same, and we did it. >> your deal was drama. his field has been comedy. was this drama or comedy? >> i agree with them. this was drama with a lot of jokes. but it is really hard-hitting and very raw. this was a film because we did not do it with a big studio and didn't more independently, he could make this sort of very adult r-rated film, and he could go there and have jokes and take things in certain directions that probably we would not have been able to do if there were several chefs in the kitchen going, we have to do it this way. >> there was one chef in the kitchen, the producer, scott rudin. >> chris had worked with him before, and chris said, i never went to you before with anything, but this movie is really special, and i want to make it in new york and with the locations and actors i want. and it is going to be really, really special, and will you back to me, and scott saw it and said yes, it was great. scott would be there every single day. he would have assistants there, buying property, and it was 24/7. the man does not sleep. they would be talking and laughing, and anytime there was an issue, you went to chris, and chris was really on top of it and on point, but scott was just there, and he is not saying anything, and he would say, "i saw that, and that is not going to cut," and he would look back down, and there are all of these people in a frenzy going, how did he see that? that was not his assistants. it was him. he is brilliant. he has the notoriety he has because he has earned it. >> you see him as a filmmaker making films he is not in. >> 100%. i think that is one of those things -- not that mel brooks or woody allen ever did that, but i think he is following in that lead of great comedians who can do that very proudly, being a proper director. >> clint eastwood is, as well. >> and mel gibson and a lot of people who have turned, you know, and you talk to people, julie delpy, who can work on both sides. angelina jolie is doing it right now. he is definitely one of those, because he has got a voice and stories he wants to tell. he is got a perspective he wants to share. >> what does rosario want? >> everything. i have a lot of things that i do all of the time. i did take that break that i needed after this movie. i am glad i did not do it before this movie. i did it after. i got to end on a really high note. after this film. >> what did you learn? >> it was not like i had so much of a break. i have a latino organization that turned 10 years old, and i work with a girls club, and i have a company i just started in ghana that we are using as a social enterprise to make impact in there. so it was not like i was not working, but i just did not do stuff in front of the camera so much, and that was amazing. i like producing. i like directing. i like writing. i like singing. i like a lot of things. and there is a new game coming out right now, called "arkham nights," and i am all about that right now. that is going to be my christmas. >> you are going to give it or receive it? >> i am going to buy it to myself and then lend it to my brother, maybe, if he is nice. there are people in my life, it jane fonda, and people i have had a chance to meet, like maya angelou, and these women wear their life. they enjoy their life every step of the way. i was talking to pat mitchell, and she said it gets better. i want to be in my life in my 50's and 60's, and i watch "trip to bountiful" with cicely tyson, and if i stay sane enough, i can do it until i die. >> and to tell a story. >> absolutely. you can do it on your cell phone now. you can tweet to someone. it is so amazing, the connection. i am enjoying it and rolling with it. >> "top five" is in some theaters and goes wide on friday, december 12. back in a moment. stay with us. ♪ >> anonymous is among the biggest online vigilante groups, and its members break into the computer systems of companies and governments. hector monsegur was one of the most effective operatives, instrumental in cyber attacks, including visa, mastercard, sony, and the u.s. senate. in 2011, he infiltrated the tunisian government website in support of protesters at the height of the air of spring. -- arab spring. later that year, he was apprehended after hacking into an fbi affiliate. he became an informant, allowing the government to launch his actions as he engaged in hacking activities with his former peers. the fbi says he has helped them prevent more than 300 cyberattacks in systems controlled by the military and nasa. i sat down him recently for his first television interview, and here is that conversation. how old were you when you saw your first computer? >> i saw my first computer when i was probably eight or nine. it is when i lived in ithaca, new york, for a while, and it was cool, because i was bored. it was during the summer, and there is nothing to do there. i had no friends and no family, so it was basically my family inside of a little house, and we were there pretty much all day, every day, and it so happens that i think my father or his wife saw an ad or knew somebody. they were pretty much giving away a computer, an old apple system. it had an old dot matrix printer, and i was sitting there in front of it, and i wondered. this was something relatively foreign to me, so i was tinkering with the system and learning how it functions. i was able to escape, escape from the current situation we were going through. >> so you were self-taught. >> absolutely. everyone around me were into something, but it wasn't computers. >> was it a passion then? i mean, once you had that idle time, and you had that device, did it feel like, my god, this is the best thing that ever happened to me? >> absolutely. close to it. i felt i could create, which was one of the most interesting things. i was eight years old. i would create a document and print it out a thousand times, waste paper. it might seem ridiculous, but he gave me the ability to create something. >> how did you go about hacking? >> we were poor, and i needed a way to get online, and in those days, getting online meant credit cards, and you had to pay some kind of service provider, so i needed to find a way where it would be cheap or free, so i needed a way to access the internet at would not be a burden to my grandmother, who was really poor, and also, growing up, i watched films like "war games," and "war games" was an old-school school film. even ones like "hackers" or "sneakers," so my interest was piqued when i could get online continuously without interruption. >> you were known as "sabu." >> yes, i chose that name, probably around 1997. before that, i had a different name, a random name, which i forgot. >> sabu is the name of a professional wrestler. >> yes, i used to watch him with my father, before my father went to prison. my father and i would sit there and watch ecw at 2:00 in the morning, and the coolest guy was the guy jumping off of buildings and doing reckless things, and his motto was homicidal, genocidal, and remind you, while he is doing that, he is jumping off buildings, and while i am hacking, i decided i needed a moniker, a pseudonym, and i thought, this sabu is pretty interesting. >> tell me about anonymous. >> well, anonymous is or should be an idea. anonymous was an idea, an idea where we can all be anonymous. we can all work together as a crowd, united. we could rise and fight against oppression. that is what anonymous is. >> and then there was lulzsec. >> yes, lulzsec you could say was more of a mistake. it was a group that had to be created, because what we wanted to do was something that many anonymous members were not ready for, they were not accepting of it. at the time, anonymous was more focused on like social protesting and low scale hacking. they were not thinking outside the box. so once we did a certain hack, we gained a lot of attention, notoriety, because it was media. there was lulzsec, because was anonymous, they did not want to feel the heat. it was actually exciting. it depends on your goal, obviously. if you are hacking to learn, the thrill is proving your concept. we call these "proof of concept," "poc." once you could prove your concept, then you have that thrill. >> give me an idea of a concept. >> if you are trying to prove an exploit, kind of like a mathematician who proves a theory. they would create an algorithm. and if it works, if it checks out with his colleagues, then that is a success. in the case of an exploit, you find a vulnerability in a web application or some sort of software. >> tell me how you operated. how many hacks did you do? >> thousands. >> what was the biggest? >> my biggest hack to me, that actually did something, was when i resuscitated in operation tunisia, when i help to the tunisian people get the revolution. you know, i help to the people. >> that started the arab spring. >> yes, the arab spring started in tunisia. regardless of whether i was at home in the lower east side, in the projects, behind a computer. >> how did that make you feel? >> wonderful. it felt great. i felt like i could finally do something that is going to help people. it was just hard. >> that is a long way, using social media and using hacking to influence a revolution. and targeting companies so that there is monetary gain. >> absolutely. >> two different things. you did both. >> you could say that. i had access to the companies, and when you get access to the companies, you have access to their database. the credit cards are right there. it is not about chasing them down and looking for the credit cards. you break into the machine, and you have access to the credit cards, so, yes, i had access to the credit cards. >> how and when did you know the fbi was on to you? >> several days or weeks before the rest, because i would come downstairs, take the kids to school, and there is a random con edison truck parked in front of my building. how often do you see a con edison truck parked in the lower east side? >> should have been a indicator, right there. >> do you know what was the greatest indication? >> what? >> the mailman was hanging out with the con edison guy in front of my building, so i knew that something was going on. >> tell us about the night the agents showed up at your door. >> it was around 8:00, dark, and they knocked on my door and said police. i was pretty sure it was not the police at the door. before i went to the door, i went to my brother and said, listen, just chill. relax. let me handle this. and i went to the door, and we have a whole bunch of fbi agents at the door. there were 14 or 15 of them, and they were going down the stairs, doing verticals, and there were some in the hallway, some in suits, and they basically pulled me out into the hallway and said, we are glad you opened the door in time, because we were about to smash it in, and i said, what is the problem? >> that is what you said? >> yes. >> why are you here? >> how can i help you, you know? and they said, we know who you are, right? we know who you are, and we know what you're doing, and we also know you have two kids in the house, so you cooperate us, and we'll take you in and you'll be back in the morning, or we will call child services and take the kids away. it is your call. you make the decision. so it is clear they had an understanding that my weakness -- >> was your kids. >> was the kids. they had done their homework. respect. that was disgraceful, that entire situation. unfortunately, i was in a situation where i had to lose these two beautiful girls who were innocent and young and did not have anything to do with any of this. why would i assist them in creating emotional complexes that would haunt them for the rest of their lives? i would rather take the weight. >> ok, in order to keep the kids, what did you have to do? >> i had to go downtown and cooperate with them. >> how hard was that? >> one of the hardest decisions of my life and also one of the easiest, because the kids were involved. i am not going to choose a movement of strangers over these two girls. >> so you went to work for the fbi. >> it is not that i went to work for the fbi. it is just that i was forced to have my computer logged by the fbi, and it was difficult. it was very hard, but i was able to manage it. >> the fbi says that you helped them prevent more than 300 cyberattacks on our government. >> yes. >> the military. >> yes. >> nasa. what did you do? >> well, here is the interesting part. what i was doing before my arrest was unifying hackers, all right? that is part of what i really did. that is the thing that made me so popular for whatever reason. unifying hackers. bridging the language guys and the hatred between groups and nationalities, so by being someone that iranian hackers and israeli hackers, pakistani hackers, others, will accomplish in their goal on a greater scale, it put me in a situation where i was logged by the fbi, and they got to see hacks in real-time that were taking place against the infrastructure of the united states government, so with that being said, i was able to assist in the attacks happening against the government and share it with the government so they could fix these issues. >> but also, you took down how many? eight of the world's top hackers? >> i did not identify anybody. i did not point my finger at anybody. i did not say, what is your ip address? what is your address? >> would they have gotten them otherwise? >> you want to be truthful? absolutely. >> but there was huge advantage in having them on their side. >> yes, because they had the logs from the computer. i was told do what you do but just do not attack any u.s. targets. what was i doing prior to my arrest? i was uniting hackers and activists from around the world, correct? after my arrest, i am doing the same exact thing. unfortunately, now, there is logs. that is the part that hurt the most. >> tell me about jeremy hammond. >> he is an interesting character, not as they portrayed him to be. he was just a random activist who had some hacking skills, and he wanted to be part of lulzsec, just like many of the hackers. unfortunately, lulzsec was only a team of six, but he hung around with us. once lulzsec met its end, he participated with operation anti-security. >> you know what some of them are saying, they are saying you coerced them. >> that is kind of difficult. that bothers me a little bit. i would say, what are you doing? let's share that information on twitter. you are telling me that i coerced them, what was i doing before? nothing has changed. i did not change from what i was doing prior. so, no, there was no coercion. i participated. we worked together. the same as everybody else. >> prosecutors have said you have been cooperating with them. and unusual public disclosure. >> kind of. from what i gather, doing some research, most informants are top-secret until trial, and if the trial does not happen, they remain secret forever. >> exactly. >> but i never went to trial. so the exposure is kind of baffling to me. >> you know why? >> i cannot give you their perspective, unfortunately, but i am sure it is some kind of propaganda. how else would you kill a centralized movement with no leaders if you were to say that there was a leader? and its leader was sabu, and he is compromised, by the way. so what happens after my exposure if you paid attention to the social atmosphere of anonymous? panic, fear. people began to fall back from participating in anonymous operations. maybe that was their agenda. i mean, it was dissuasive. it gave people a reason not to participate in anonymous if their so called leader was compromised. >> i assume part of the government attitude was about you, public disclosure, that in the end, we will get you. you cannot hide. behind anonymity. we will get you. look who we got. we caught a big fish. >> yes. and you know what? it was not a matter of them just being sophisticated or them having some technology used to find me. i made mistakes. i made a lot of mistakes. >> that is how people get caught. >> that is how people get caught. >> what is happening right now as we are talking the worst thing that hackers are able to do to the united states? >> well, that is a good question. there is no thing as security. that being said, airport security. hackers can break right into the airport. powers systems. turn off the lights. water systems, shut them down. water pipelines. they will shut down saudi arabia for a day, and guess what? the price of gasoline will shoot up $20 by tomorrow. the bureau of prisons, where i was locked up at. scatter systems. the locks are controlled by scatter systems, logic controller systems. they can simply open all of the cells across the united states. >> you are saying those are things that can be achieved by people who are working today as hackers. >> hackers can do way more than that. it should be an inspiration to the american government to work on our infrastructure. >> to make it more hacker proof? >> it is not hacker proof. it is how we are handling security in this country. it is completely absurd. for example, instead of educating -- let's say this office right here, and we are all government employees, and you are the president. >> you are in charge of security. >> yes, by all means. i will be the security guy. instead of you telling me, hey, hector, educate everybody about passwords and how to secure their laptop, because we have sensitive information here we do not want to leak, that is not what happens. we call in a company and give them a billion dollars, and here come the contractors. we have a sickening reliance on security contractors, the likes of booz allen hamilton and mansec, companies like snowden worked for. who will guard the guards? our security, the people that we hire with tax dollars, are not really secure themselves, so they are at our attack vectors. do you understand? >> i do. it seems like we are in a bad place. >> we are in a bad place. we are in a really bad place, and as time goes on, you are going to continue to hear stories like, oh, the chinese government has infiltrated the post office, or the russian government has infiltrated the sewage system. this is going to continue to happen until we change our perspective on security. we need to stop treating security as a contract job and accept security as a way of life that we need to think about. all right? we all, individually, have the responsibility to focus on our own security. there is no reason why you should have an intern handle your e-mail. you should be able to handle your own e-mail. >> can you imagine this? it is said, and i have no way to judge, that you were really, really good. >> i will leave it up to people to decide. >> can you imagine if you had not gone one direction but had ended up in silicon valley? >> well, that is the problem. i did not end up in silicon valley. i had no connections to the world. here i was, this young, poor, puerto rican guy from the lower east side projects, and i had no education. how was i going to get from there to silicon valley? i tried to get i had my own security company, and that failed, so with no help from anybody, it would have been extremely hard for me to make it. i guarantee you though, had i made it in silicon valley when i was 18, if i had been pointed in the right direction, you and i would be having a completely different conversation. >> thank you, hector. >> thank you. ♪ >> live from pier three in san francisco, welcome to "bloomberg west," where we cover innovation, technology, and the future of business. i'm emily chang. take a look at the headlines. equity markets took a big hit today. the dow, nasdaq and s&p fell about 1.6%. the selloff comes after opec says oil demand for next year will be the lowest in 12 years. nyu economics professor michael spence tells bluebird surveillance that russian president vladimir putin is a big user here -- loser here. >> is pushed him into the arms of the chinese. >> is the dialogue ongoing?
incredible perspective on things and that is something i hold very dear. i like people looking at the world around them and making observations and really balancing and checking them out and playing with the ideas and comparing them and has done that in a brilliant way and i love that. >> rose: conclude with hector monsegur, a former hacker who cooperated with the fbi. >> who will guard the guards, charlie? the security, the people that we hire with tax dollars, are not really secure themselves. so they are our attack vectors. do you understand? >> rose: i do. it seems like we are at a bad place. we are in a bad place. we are in a really bad place and as time goes on, you will continue to hear stories like oh the chinese government has infiltrated the post office, right? or the russian government has infiltrated the sewage system. it is going to continue to happen. >> rose: peter barack, david ignatius, rosario dawson, and hector monsegur when we continue. >> funding for charlie rose is provided by the >> rose: additional funding provided by: >> and by bloomberg, a provider of multimedia news and information services world wide. captioning sponsored by rose communications from our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose. >> rose: today the senate swell generals committee rhythms add highly controversial government document called the fine sign, feinstein report, the result of a five-year investigation, into the cia's detention program from the, and the years following the 9/11 terror attacks, those who read it say it is a damning indictment of the cia's use of enhanced interrogation, the report claims that such techniques were far more brutal than previously revealed. it concludes the agency's oversight of those activities was inadequate and despite its brutality enhanced interrogation did not lead to actionable intelligence. this morning dianne feinsten chairman of the intelligence committee spoke from the senate floor about her decision to release the report. >> history will judge us by our commitment to adjust society governed by law and the willingness to face an ugly truth and say, never again. >> rose: there are many who disagree with feinstein's decision, cia officials who reviewed the report say it does not paint an accurate picture of the activities, that the intelligence they obtained helped head off deadly terror attacks and any excesses described in the report ended years ago. many critics also worried the release of such incendiary information could spark violence abroad, it could even they say cost american lives, this weekend former president george w. bush spoke to cnn refuting the claims in the report. >> we are fortunate to have men and women who work hard at the cia serving on our behalf. these are patriots and whatever the report says if it democrats their contributions to our country, it is way off base. >> rose: we have covered both sides of the debate, many times on this program, the core issue has to do with humanity and torture, general stanley mcchrystal told me in january 2013 he was not a believer in enhanced interrogationqj?uq(rgiques. >> some people say you could get information. the point is both are true, sometimes you do, sometimes you don't, the reality is the effect it the has on you, i think when you become the torturer, something happens to that force. i think it has a i don't receive effect overtime. i think you move down a path that is difficult to come back from. and i think that happens to individuals involved and i think it happens to the force. >> rose: however here is what former vice president dick cheney has to say in june of in year. >> we were there under especially extraordinary circumstances and i took a lot of positions, positions i still hold that generated criticism enhanced interrogation techniques, and i don't hesitae to defend what we did. >> and former deputy director mike morell said in january of this year. >> the people who say it it wast effective want this to be easy. legal and effective. then you get to the morality question. you get to the question of is it okay to do these kind of things to other human beings? and reasonable people can differ on that. and there is a reasonable debate to be had. but it is very important for the, i think for the american people to understand that when you have that debate about whether it is okay to do this to other human beings you also have to have the debate about the flip side of the coin, charlie which is if you don't use these techniques, americans are going to die, what is the morality of that question? >> rose: joining me now from washington, peter barack, chief white house, peter baker, and david ignatius, thanks both for coming, peter let me begin with you, what is the what i house attitude about about this? we have seen what the president said but did they want this released and for what reason? >> well, they say they want this released and they said transparency is important, a way of turning the corner, but at the same time as you saw the president said in his written statement he put out today he wants to not refight old arguments he want this to kind of be the finale to this debate which has been raging now for almost a decade in this country, he wants people to think and understand that he considers these techniques to be wrong and he has banned them, and by order of 2009 and not focussing back to them again but he doesn't want to spend a lot more time relitigating over what happened in the last administration. >> rose: so why does feinstein think it is so important to release this. >> she spent five years looking into this, no doubt the most comprehensive version of any report we have seen publicly about these issues and this program, so i think she wanted to get out there in public so that people understood what happened, what didn't happen, and to make sure that it doesn't happen again. i mean, you know, vice president biden asked if this was a stain on our reputation, he said no a badge of honor owning up to mistakes, there is another side, the cia folks who were involved in this, the former bush administration folks involved in this they see this as a partisan report, they see this as a way of deprotecting attention and responsibility by the lawmakers themselves who they said were briefed at least in part on some of the things going on and wanted nothing to do with it. >> rose: you know the cia as well as anyone i know, as a reporter and columnist, they have said to me they think that they had legal authority to do what they did, that they disclosed what they did and they think that the report is neither fair nor complete. >> no question former and current agency officials like brown things this is a contentious report for the prosecution, they feel that they were given authority from the beginning, indeed they requested the justice department legal opinion saying that the 12 techniques their consultants had advised them to use were legal, there is a passage in the report that describes how condoleezza rice was briefed on those 12 techniques and then the justice department decision that the, but the president was not to be briefed himself. i must say, charlie, even for people who follow this issue carefully, over the years, this report is absolutely rivetting, it is painful to read, people will read it i think with some of the sense of anguish that people involved in the program felt at the time, some of the most poignant passages are about medical officers from the cia, about younger cia employees watching the early water boarding of detainees, watching as people were treated in these ways, well up with tears, one man just says i can't, basically i can't continue with this, it is a train wreck. you read over this dark history of these few years i think with emotion and the hope is that by putting it all out in such eviscerating detail finally it may be possible to put this behind us. >> rose: is that the idea, somehow we can in the only come clear on this, i am not saying clean but come clear on this and at the same time set the direction as to what the country and what the president thinks is -- >> i think the -- >> should do in a national emergency? >> it is precisely that charlie, it is finally to make a full accounting of this. it is what senate feinstein has been so passionate about since they seek this us in 2009, i think there are aspects of in report that are too contentious and trying to hard to make the case but what senator feinstein wanted to do is prepare a report that was so devastating that it really would draw a bright line forever in american history to say, never do this again and this report is so powerful it may have accomplished what she hoped. >> rose: also questions are raised as to the effectiveness of torture, do we get a conclusion in this, peter, about whether it accomplishes the purpose it is intended to beyond the question as to whether we should do it and whether it was legal at the time? >> that is an interesting question, there is a morality question is it the right thing to do and more question, the efficacy does it make sense out of it do you get out what you want? and this report concludes that the cia has vastly overstated the value of the intelligence it got out of the program, in fact, it outlines 20 case studies where the cia claimed, you know, results from the program that helped thwart attacks and put them ahead of the ball in the war against al qaeda and then dissect those case studies and say, no, in fact they didn't get what they said they got out of it or from other sources or could have got it other ways and basically questioned the whole value of that program from start to finish. now the cia doesn't agree with that and that's a really interesting point because you have john brennan in there the director of the cia, appointee of president obama and he says, look, i agree with the president for banning it but i think there was value in this program and that we shouldn't, you know, condemn the cia officers who were involved in it because they were doing what they were told to do and told was legal, so you had this positioning where the president is caught between these two different points of view. >> rose: peter, thank you so much for coming in, i know you are on deadline and i know you are writing but thank you again. >> always good to be with you, thank you. >> rose: pleasure. david, speak to this issue of the effectiveness of it and the cia's position and can they make the case and finally, were they given the opportunity to make the case to this committee? david? >> this question of effectiveness is the hardest thing for the outsider to evaluate. >> they make this with the 20 case studies in each instance where intelligence value is claimed for the harsh interrogation the intelligence could have been obtained other ways. >> cia officers who read the report all 6,000 pages of it, in fact, say that the way that the committee is organized the intelligence amounts to cherry picking and their arguments about these 20 cases is not convincing, it is done with hindsight that they look back and find the thing that could have told you what you ended up getting, a good example is the intelligence that led to targeting osama bin laden in abbottabad, officers say whatever you decide about the moral question, the value of intelligence gained from harsh interrogation in identifying who the courier was who kuwaiti was servicing osama bin laden in abbottabad, it is not clear that would have emerged without these interrogations. that is an argument of dispute about facts, i think historians will pick over that, i should just note, as important and in the end valuable as i think this report is, it is not the kind of judgment that historians would make and leaves out the context, what it felt like to be the director of the cia when you were receiving 50 threats a day, when it was believed that a second wave of attacks was coming, the second wave may have radiological attacks that is really not there, and also the argument that former officials like george tenet make they were never asked to comment, discuss, explain these issues, you know, you don't want to have a prosecution -- in a newspaper story where you make accusations and don't get the person who is being charged a chance to respond, and i think that that stay legitimate criticism of the report. people should have a chance to answer the charges that are made against them. >> rose: why didn't they do that? >> they argue at the time that they were compiling the report legal investigations were still going on and it wasn't appropriate, they also argue that they look carefully through all of the statements that were made by key people by george tenet, mike hayden, former director tors of the cia and taken their viewpoint into account even granting that i still think it is hard to refute the argument hey you should have given us a chance too respond. >> both the defense department and state department have put embassies and the lake on kind of alert. what is the expectation, what are they worried about,? >> charlie that one of the tough parts of this as we know from news reporting, secretary of state john kerry phoned the senate intelligence committee chair, chairwoman, senator feinstein and said we have warnings from foreign leaders that they fear an up tick in violence if this report is leaked and so obviously the people have been calling the united states expressing concern about what might happen. obviously from reading our morning knew newspapers we know the middle east is in a very fragile, delicate state right now, a coalition trying to fight isis that is very shaky, just try to stand up and this report could weak ken and destabilize it, an iraqi government that is similarly very fragile and who knows what effect the report will have. even given all of those points the idea you could indefinitely suppress information like this, just doesn't hold up to me and what senator feinstein said in morning on the senate floor was the there are always arguments for delay. the middle east will be unstable at any point in the future you can think of, so let's go ahead and get this out and make a clean rest of it. >> rose: david you are a successful writer, spy novels are there things in here you couldn't imagine writing? >> what struck they and what makes this a document worth your viewers reading is the human side of it, the cable sent back from the first use of water boarding against al qaeda member named abu sent pack by a medical officer who was assigned trying to recount what it was like in the room as water boarding was used, i mean this is a doctor a person never could have imagined that he would have in this situation. other poignant human examples like that, both of the cia officers involved and then of the arab detainees and you read this and it is just a kind of thing that is so nightmarish it is hard to believe in our recent history at all it actually happened. this is not an episode of homeland, this really happened and you read it and do think, wow, i am glad i never hahad to face decisions like the people faced and wow i sure hope we never have to do this again. >> rose: david, thank you so much. thank you, charlie. >> rose: david ignatius from the washington post. back in a moment, stay with us. >> >> rose: rosario dawson is here, she starts stars in a new film along with chris rock, the film is called "top five", she played a journalist writing a part on a comedian turned film star, "hollywood reporter" says it allows dawson to reveal a comic range we have never seen before. here is the trailer for the film. >> what's up this is andre allen when i listen so satellite radio i listen to serious hits one. >> just make it funnier. >> funnier? >> put a little scairchg on it. >> what is up mother (bleep) this is andre (bleep) alan. scratch my nuts that is. >> first take was good. >> >> in 2005 "time" magazine voted today's guest the funniest man in america. >> by 2010 the former stand-up hit it abou big with hand me thr one, two and three. >> you hammer time. it's hammer time. you can also see him getting married to erica long. >> can we do this on camera? >> not on camera. the camera doesn't exist. >> i don't feel like doing funny movies anymore. i don't feel funny. >> you give me a couple of really honest things i will be more than fair. >> this is chelsea brown, she is doing a story on me, no snitching. >> come to me, baby girl i will turn over like an apple pie. >> you just ate an apple pie you father mother. >> you need to wake up this mother (bleep). >> look at this black man trying to get a taxi in new york city. taxi. >> do you think the wedding is hurt me -- hurting me? >> this thing flopped, you are talking dancing with the stars. >> what am i going yo do. >> in the conference room. >> why don't you just skip the hard questions and go right to something good. >> how come you aren't fun funny anymore? >> she is hysterical. >> this is my town. anything you ned -- >> welcome, sir. >> i got married a lot of times, i wasn't into the wedding, i should have been into the guy. >> a ass you should be into the girl. >> my name is -- then i might let biggy get in there. >> oh, my god. >> ♪ >> hey, you mind if i get -- i need this. thank god -- i got a lock on it. give it to your boy. >> rose: welcome. >> thank you so much. >> rose: good to have you here. >> it is great to be here. >> rose: how long have you known chris rock. >> 16 years now. >> rose: describe the relationship. >> you know, it is -- we agree to disagree a lot. we have a very good banter, which i think luckily we can translate to this movie. it has been interesting to us for many years and i hope many people find it so. >> rose: that means you are different people. >> we are very different people but i think it is funny lake talk about things he is a feminist, activist in his own way and does it with his writing and stand-up and he does it in his own way and i love that, he really pushes people to think about things they might not other ways think about and forces them to laugh sometimes at things they could not potentially imagine a fathom laughing at because he has an incredible perspective on things and perspective is something i hold very dear, i like people looking at the world around them and making some observations, really balancing, checking them out, playing with the ideas and comparing them and always done that in a brilliant way and i love that, he makes me think, he makes me laugh and pushes me and chance me, he is awesome. >> rose: he wrote this piece with you in mind. >> uh-huh. i know. >> rose: what was it about you that you think he was writing to? >> that i -- i think -- >> rose: it was a challenge you had your own mind? >> uh-huh. i think very much so. i think he likes the way that we have kind of gotten to know each other over the years and talked and, you know, the things i appreciate, i speernt really loved his documentary good hair, i don't know if you saw it, it is so amazing and i loved the kind of father he is and just the person that he is and i think he jokes that the this is the movie he felt like if he didn't direct and do really great with that no one would ever let him direct anything anymore so he really brought it and really pushed it and he wasn't going to call a bunch of his friends to come on board for something he thought was going to be a stinking ship he had high aspirations for it and that's why he wanted me on board. >> rose: the central judgment is he is finally been as good in a movie as he is in stand-up. >> yes. >> he finally paid as much attention to all the elements of a movie as he has paid to stand-up. >> yes. he treated this like a stand-up and worked on the script for three years beforehand and when you watch his stuff, really seamless about watching his special and cutting between him and different outfits and listening to him tell a joke which feels like, because he is so familiar with the way he is and demeanor it seems like he is telling that joke for the first time but told it 100 times before he shares wit anyone and do that with the character and not looking like chris rock in a movie but being andre alan and i think there is enough familiarity for you to look at it and say okay he is being a comedian and an actor, okay i can the i see pier in the story and give him the benefit of the doubt but he did a lot of hat in an incredible play and he is working with acting coach on this mauve he was really determined to have to make sure he wasn't chris rock at all times and listen i am directing this and writing this and producing this and i am acting in this and the i don't want any part to be misconstrued or wrong or kind of, you know, kind of done in a way that i dialed it in because i was busy doing something else, please call me on it and it is one of the first things when he first approached me with the role i said this is great, congratulations, in is really awesome, well done on the script, have fun with that and he said, what? can wait a minute. you have to be in this movie with me and i said, you know, my grandmother passed a few years s before and i had just done a slew of movies, give me shelter, sent me into a trance and i just felt really exhausted and i just wanted to be home and i wanted to be with my family and really something to be said for taking the time to mourn and i needed to do that and my brother read the script and he said this is sweet, you need to do this movie, you will be home in new york with your family, you will be working with your friend, like talk to him about it, if you have some input you want to put into this character i am sure he would much rather hear you say let's collaborate on this than no and that's it, i talked to chris about this ad nauseum and said i have, auditioned him for his own movie and this was, you know, i am not used to doing comedy, i was like nervous, there is a lot. >> rose: chelsea when you first saw it in the script and after you tweaked her to become what you thought she was. >> you know, i think he had a really good basis for it because he did write this for me, there was a lot that felt really connected to and the really familiar with, but i wanted to push it, you know, i wanted to really, you are going to have this woman shadowing this man around all day and a fan of his, and also a single mom and sober and she has real issues and things in her life she is not just going to take it when he says yeah, drinking criminal had no effect on my career and this relationship is totally great and no robs with it and just going to call him on that and say i get to spend all day with you and never got a chance to meet you before and not walk away from this experience saying i wish i would have asked and pushed harder on this, no, as a matter of fact because i work for "the new york times", you need me, because this movie is going to fail, without me doing some kind of review, you going to let me talk to you this way and you are going to let me push you and takes advantage, and i like she goes toe to toe with him and i wanted to push this as far as she possibly could. >> as a director, how is he? >> amazing. actually. you know, that is one of those things you are about to work with a friend and you have, you know, you have ideas, and, i am going to push you, he would listen to me when we need this dramatic pause or different things because i know my drama and i would bite my nails and get nervous he would say this is going to be funny, trust me you will work again and, you can show your face in public and trust me, i know my comedy, and i felt like, what is so different about us and what is so great about us is that much more developed and that much more push because he doesn't, he doesn't flight you, it is not like he has had all of these incredible talents on here and so desperately to show she the big guy. there wasn't like this, i am sure he has a huge ego but it didn't feel like that, it felt like he wanted everybody to be great and there are no cameos in this movie, everyone has a shining solo moment and pushed that for me as well and it was amazing, you know, i call him, he says he is a protector, you know, he says he wasn't the director for but the protector, and i called him the conductor, all of these incredible instruments, tracy morgan and, you know, like whoopi goldberg and jerry seinfeld, a i mean, just amazing, amazing, amazing people an he would go i let them hit the hey note and okay they are feeling pleased and start to run out of pretty and just keep it going and oh, the guy with his back to the audience, maybe the guy not on camera right now he knows how far he can push you and he gets that thing out of everybody and he did that with every single person and they shine in this movie and he didn't back up off, he said, you know, on the previous films we e would do a show right during or after and save his jokes for that special he was going to do and he didn't do that, he said we are going to, i am going to put everything into it and i want all of you to do the same and we did,. >> your deal with drama, his field has been comedy, is this drama or comedy? >> as he says it i agree this is drama with a lot of jokes, a lot and lot of jokes but really hard-hitting i think it is very raw, this is a film because we didn't do it with a big studio and did it more independently he should make this sort of very adult, r rated film and really go there and hit certain punches and hit certain jokes and take thing in a certain direction you probably would not have been able to do had there been several chefs in the kitchen well we have to appeal to and do it this way. >> rose: there was one chef in the kitchen, the producer, scott rude den. >> yes. >> what is his role hear and what influences did he have on chris? >> chris, you know he worked with him before and he said i never went to you before with anything but this movie is really special and i want to make in this new york and with the locations i want and make wit the arguments i want to make it with and it is going to be really, really special if you back me and scott said yes and it was great, scott would be there, every single day, he would have his assistants there buying properties in china and developing other -- i mean it was 24/7, the man doesn't sleep, and he -- you know, he just would be there kind of laughing and maybe talking and stuff and any time this was an issue you went to chris, chris was really on top of it and on point, this would be this moment you feel, scott is just there and not saying anything and look up on the wide shot, the umbrellas are open and he says it is not going to cut have, and have all of these people in a frenzy, how did he see that? that wasn't his assistants or anything else, that man is brilliant, and he is in the position he is in and he has the notoriety he has because he earned it. >> rose: and extraordinary taste. >> very much so. >> rose: role the tape here is the first scene. >> she is going to be latina and may even be gay so we will have an asian president and w we will have another handicapped president. >> hold on we won't have a man difficult capped president. >> yes, we will, we already had one. >> i am talking out of the closet handicapped president. >> what do you mean out of the closet in. >> i have nothing against the handicapped but not everybody is as liberal as me, you run for president, you don't roll for president, you run a campaign, but don't roll a campaign. >> you are horrible. >> i am not horrible. >> that is sick. >> what is wrong with you? >> i am sick, i am the one voting for mexican lesbian handicapped president. >> literally i female when i watch this, it is like chris has this thing about wanting to just make me go, oh, like jaw drop and just like, flagger gassed that is his favorite thing to do and it is just .. we volley back and forth with this, i hear you are saying this to me but you need the hear this back and it goes and goes and goes, we may disagree a lot but it is awesome. >> rose: as a film maker making films which he is not in. >> 100 percent, i think that is one of the things, i mean, not that mel brooks or woody allen -- i think he is following in that lead of great comedians who could absolutely transition and wear that hat very proudly and very well of being a proper director. >> rose: clint eastwood as well. >> uh-huh, i think really, mel gibson son a lot of people who have turned, can do, ethan hawking jewel difficult -- who can work on both sides, angelina jolie is doing it right now, people are capable of doing that and definitely one of those people because he has a voice and has stories he wants to tell and perspective he wants to share. >> rose: what does rosario dawson want? >> everything. i have. >> you know, i have a lot of things i do all the time i am working on all the time. i did take that break after -- that i needed after this movie, i am glad i didn't do it before this movie, i did it after and got to end on a high note. >> rose: after this film? >> after this film, i didn't work for a year. >> rose: what did you learn? >> it wasn't like so i took so much of a break, i have my voting organization, ten years, latino, on the board of a lot of organizations from va, to girls club and worked hard with and a company i just started in ghana, it is a fashion line called studio 19, as a social enterprise to make social eman packet with the communities there, it is not like i wasn't working but didn't do stuff in front of the cameras so much and that was amazing, i like producing, i like directing, i like writing, i love singing, i lake a lot of things, i lick traveling and being with family my feandz families and friends and sometimes, well, the new game that is coming out right now is the arc of knights and all about that, that is going to be my christmas, basically, you know, but. >> rose: you going to give it for receive it? >> i am buying it for myself, and then i will len it to my brother, maybe, if me is nice. >> everyone from jane fonda to doris and people who have gotten a chance, like angela who had such a tremendous influence open me and these women, they enjoyed every single step of the way, talking to pat mitchell, it is so much better, i want to be in my 30s and enjoy it and thirties and forties and fifties and sixties and watch tyson, still be just magnificent and tremendous on stage and go how lucky i am that i am this the old test profession in the world, storyteller and stay rooted enough i can do it potentially to the day i die and that is a beautiful, beautiful thing. so i hope i can i get get to do in this this in all of the different ways. >> rose: and tell the stories. >> you can do it on the. >> rose: thanks for coming. >> thanks for having me. >> rose: "top five" is in select theaters, it goes wide on friday, december 12th. back in a moment, stay with us. >> >> rose: anonymous is am honk the biggest online vigilante groups they break into computer systems of corporations and governments hector mons fur was one of the most instrumental and steered cyber attacks on visa, mastercard, paypal, sony and the u.s. senate, in 2011 he infiltrated the 2 missian in support of protesters at the eight of the arab spring. later that year, he was apprehended after has beening into an fbi affiliate, he became an informant, allowing the government to log his acts as he engaged in hacking activities with his former piers. the fbi says he has helped them prevent more than 300 cyber attacks in systems controlled by the military and nasa. i sat down with his recently for his first television interview and here is that conversation. how were you when you saw your first computer. >> i saw my first computer when i was probably eight or nine. it is when i lived in ithaca, new york for a while, and it was cool, because, you know, i was bored, it was during the summer, and there was nothing to do over there. i had no friend, no family so basically my family inside a little house and pretty much there all day every day and we, it just so happened that my father or his wife saw an ad or knew somebody that were pretty much giving away a computer, old apple system, brought it to the house, old dot matrix printerrer and sitting there in front of it and in wonder, right? in is something relatively foreign to me, so by tinkoff-saxo everything with the system and learning how it tinkering with the system .. i was able to escape from the current situation we were going through. >> so you were self-taught? >> absolutely, i had no one to -- everybody around me were into something but it wasn't computers. you know,? >> rose: i mean, was it a passion then? i mean once you had that idle time and you had that device, did you -- i mean, did it feel like, my, god, it is the best thing that ever happened to me? >> close to it. absolutely. i felt like i could create, which is the most interesting thing, even a simple, as a child i was eight years old, i would create a document, just write into it print it out 1,000 times, wastepaper, it might seem ridiculous but it gave me a chance to create something. >> how did you start with has beening. >> it started with my interest in cola lumpur, i needed a way to get online and in those days getting online meant credit cards and you had to pay social service provider so i needed to find a way that would be cheap or free so i would be able to access the internet without being burdened to my grandmother who was really poor. and also, you know, growing up i watched films like war games and an old school film, also watched even hackers or sleepers, films that portrayed hacking so obviously my interest would be peaked as soon as i was online continuously without interruption. >> rose: you were known as sabu. >> yeah, i was known as -- i chose that name, probably around '97, before that i had a whole different name, it was random name, which i forgot. >> rose: yes. >> sabu. >> that is the name of a professional wrestler. >> yes, i used to watch him with my father, before my father went to prison, me and my father would sit there and watch you know, ecw at 2:00 in the morning and the coolest guy was the guy jumping off of buildings and, you know, doing reckless things so his motto was suicidal homicidal and genocidal while he is doing that he is jumping off buildings and i am hacking i decided i need a name, a moniker. >> i will go with sabu he is pretty interesting. >> so tell me about anonymous. >> oh, anonymous is or should be an idea, anonymous is an idea, an yd where we could all be anonymous, we could all work together as a crowd, united, we could raise and fight against oppression. that's what anonymous is. >> rose: and then there was -- >> that was you could say was more of a mistake, it was a group that had to be created, because what we wanted to do was something that many anonymous members were not ready for. were not accepting of it. at the time anonymous was more focused on like social protesting and low scale hacking. they weren't thinking outside the box. so once we did a certain hack, it gained a lot of attention, notoriety because it was a media -- media and security and we kind of got some game for it, that's when we decided to focus on wolsec because there were people in anonymous who didn't want to take the heat. >> rose: tell me about the feeling when you are hacking. >> oh, a thrill. it is actually exciting. it depends on your goal, obviously, i mean, if you are hacking to learn, the thrill is proving your concept, we call these proof of concepts, poc. once you could prove your concept then you have that thrill. >> rose: give an example of a concept. >> if you are trying to -- if you try to prove an exploit, like a mathematician who pro proves a theory, create an algorithm, and if it works, it checks out with his colleagues, you know, then that is his success. in a case of an exploit we find a vulnerability in a web application or some sort of software. >> rose: tell me how you operated the, how many hacks did you do? >> thousands,. >> rose: what was the biggest? >> my biggest hack to me that actually did something was when i participated in operation tunisia when i helped the 2 in addition, 2 missian people get their revolution. >> rose: you started, it started the arab spring. >> yes, it started? tunisia and it went insane, it was amazing, finally i was able to do something that contributed to society regardless of whether i was at home on the lower east side in the projects, hiding behind a computer. >> rose: how did that make you feel? >> wonderful, great, i felt like i was finally able to do something to help people. it was just -- it was hard, right? >> rose: i mean, that is a long way. >> sure. >> rose: using social media and using hacking to influence a revolution. >> uh-huh. >> rose: from targeting companies so that there is monetary gain. >> uh-huh. >> rose: right? >> absolutely. >> rose: two very different things. you did both?. well, yeah you could say that. i mean, i gained access to companies and when you access these companies automatically you have access to the database you have the credit cards instantly right there. it is not a matter of chasing down these credit cards and looking for the credit cards specifically. you are breaking into machines who have access to them instantly. so, yeah, i had access to the credit cards. >> rose: when did you know the fbi was on to you? >> several days before -- probably several days to a couple of weeks before my arrest, because i would come downstairs, take the kids to school and there is a random con edison truck in front of my building. how often do you see a con edison truck on the lower east side. >> rose: it should have been an indicator right there. >> you know the greatest indication? >> what? >> the mailman was hanging out with the exxon edison guy in front of my building. kind of random. so i knew something was off. >> rose: and the night the agents showed up around your door. >> eightish, 9:00ish and they knock on the door and say police, mind you, we are not doing anything illegal so i am pretty sure -- i am pretty sure it was didn't police at the door i said all right, guys, hold on a moment, i walked to the door and spoke to my brother and i said listen, just chill, relax. let me handle this. i went to the door, and here we are. we have a whole bunch of fbi agents in the hallway. i remember it was at least 14, 15 of them up and down the staircase doing verticals, we had some guys in suits in the corner, around the corner, on my hallway and, you know, they basically pulled me out into the hallway and said, you know, we are glad you opened the door in time because we were about to smash it in. all right what is the problem. >> rose: that's what you said? >> yeah. >> why are you here? >> yes. what is up? how can i help you they said well we know who you are. right? we know who you are. we know what you are doing, and we also know you have some kids in the house, so to keep it simple, you can either cooperate with us and come downtown with us and be back in the morning, or we are going to call acs and take the kids away, it is your call. you make the decision. so it is clear we had an understanding that my weakness. >> rose: with your kids. >> with does kids. this he did their homework. props to them, much respect but that was disgraceful, that type of situation. i would have loved to fight my case. it would have been beautiful. but unfortunately i was in a situation where i had to lose these two beautiful girls that were innocent and young and had nothing to do with any of this and why would i assist them in helping them create emotional complexes that would haunt them the rest of their life? i would rather take the weight, fine, by all means than have them go through this situation. of being taken away and lost in the -- >> rose: in order to keep your kids you had to do what? >> i had to go down town and admit to my crimes and cooperate with them. >> rose: how hard was that? >> one of the hardest decisions of my life and also one of the easiest because the children were involved i am not going to choose an idea or a measurement of strangers over these little girls so. it was a half-and-half situation. >> rose: so you went to work for the fbi? >> not that i went to work for the fbi it is that i was forced to have my computer logged by the fbi and it was difficult, it was very hard, but i was able to manage around it. >> rose: the fbi says that you helped them prevent more than 300 cyber attacks on our government. >> yeah. >> rose: on the military. >> uh-huh. >> nasa. what did you do? >> well, here is the interesting part. what i was doing before my arrest was unifying hackers, right? that was part of what i really did. that was the thing that made me so popular for whatever reason. unifying hackers, bridging the language gaps or bridging the hatred between groups or nationalities. so by being, so by being someone, iranian hackers and israelly hackers and indian hackers who come and share their knowledge and still accomplish their goals, probably on a greater scale, they also put me in a situation where when i was logged by the fbi they got to see attacks the whole time that were taking place against the infrastructure of the united states government. so with that being said, i was able to intercept attacks that were happening against the government and share wit the government. so they could fix these issues. >> rose: but also you took down how many? eight of the world's top hackers? >> well, you could say i took them down. >> rose: well they believe you took them down. >> i didn't identify anybody, or point my finger at anybody, i never asked a question what is your name? can i get your ip address? where do you live. >> but would they have been taken down without you? >> absolutely. realistically, absolutely. >> rose: but with you there was a huge advantage of having you there on their side. >> yes. because they had logs in the computer, i was there, i was essentially told do what it is you do, do not attack any american interests, any government interests so when you are told that guess what i am going to do, i am going to continue to do exactly what i did prior to my arrest, right? so what was i doing prior to my arrest? i was uniting hackers and activists from around the world, correct? after my arrest, i am doing the same exact thing. unfortunately now there are logs, that's the part that really hurt me the most. >> rose: tell me about jeremy hammond. >> an interesting character. he is not as they portrayed him to be. he was just a random activist who had some hacking skills and he wanted to be a part of low sec like many of the hackers. unfortunately for them it was only a team of six, losec but he hung around us and worked with us, we communicated daily, and once wall sec met its end he participated with operation anti-security. >> rose: you know what some of them are saying, they say you coerced them. >into doing some stuff. >> it is kind of difficult. the question is, it bothers me a little bit because prior to my arrest, my conversations with people were the same conversations you saw between me and jerry hammonds. oh you are hacking into the government of brazil? awesome, what information did you get? all right let's share that information and put it on twitter. so you are telling me that if i coerce -- what happens with all of the conversations i had prayer to my arrest. nothing has changed. i did not change from what i was doing prior so no there was no coercion. he hacked, i participated, we worked together, same with everybody else. >> rose: prosecutors have revealed that you have been cooperating with them. >> yeah. >> rose: an unusual public disclosure. >> yeah, kind of, right? from what i gather, doing research most informants are usually held secret. >> rose: exactly. >> until trial and if the trial does not happen they remain secret forever, i didn't go to trial, nobody went to trial, so the exposure is kind of baffling to me to be honest with you. >> rose: do you know why? >> i can't give you their perspective, unfortunately. >> rose: you talked to them. >> but i am sure it has to do with some sort of propaganda, how else would you kill a centralized movement with no leaders if you were to say that there was a leader? and the leader was sabu and he is compromised by the way. what happens after my exposure? if you paid attention to the social atmosphere of anonymous, panic, fear, people began to fall back from working in anonymous operations. it was dissway receive. it gave people a reason not 0 to participate with anonymous if their so-called leader was compromised. >> rose: i assume part of the government's attitude is about you, public disclosure, you know, that in the end, we will get you. >> uh-huh. >> rose: you cannot hide behind anonymity. we will get you. lack who we got. >> yeah. >> rose: we caught a big fish. >> yeah. yeah. you know what? it wasn't a matter of them just being sophisticated or their having some technology they could use to find me, i made mistakes. i made a lot of mistakes. >> rose: that's how people get caught. >> that's how people get caught. >> what is at this moment as we are talking the worst thing that hackers are capable of doing to the united states? >> well, it is a good question. and in all reality, there is no security. with that being said, airport security hackers will break right into the airport, power supply systems, turn off the lights and no lights in here, the water system, shut it down, auto pipelines, they will shut down saudi arabia for a day and the price of gasoline will shoot up ten or $20 by tomorrow. bureau of prisons where i was locked up, scatter systems, logic control systems, they could simply open all the cells across the united states. it is a matter of their goals, what they are trying to accomplish. >> rose: you are saying that is accomplishment -- those are accomplishments that can be achieved by people who are working today as hackers? they could do every one of those things? >> hackers can do more than that. >> rose: it is scary to me. >> it could be scary and it should be an inspiration to the american government to focus on our infrastructuring. >> rose: to make it more hacker proof? >> will, it is not about hacker proof. it is that our way of handling security in this country is competely absurd. for example, instead of educating -- let's say this office right here, where we are all government employees, right, you are the president and so on, and. >> rose: you are in charge of security. >> well, yeah, by all means i will be the security guy. so instead of you telling me, hey, hector, can you educate everybody about their passwords, how to secure their laptops because we have some special information in here we don't want to leak. no that is not what happens n real life what happens is the government which is you, the president would call mantech or raytheon and can you guys come over here and put some software, don't talk to people about security, install the software and give you a billion dollars for it and here we come with security contractors. we have a sickening remains on security contractors the likes of booze hamilton, booth hamilton, the company edward snowden worked for. who will guard the guards, charlie? how will security the people we pay for, and hire with tax dollars, they are not really secure themselves, so they are our attack verdicts -- attack vectors. >> rose: do you understand? >> i do. >> rose: it seems to me we are in a bad place. >> wither in a bad place, we are in a really bad place and as time goes on, you will continue to hear stories like oh the chinese government has infiltrated the post office, right? or the russian government has infiltrated the sewage system. it is going to continue to happen. until we change our perspective on security. we need to stop treating security as a contract job and accept security as a way of hive we need to think about, right? we all individually have the responsibility to focus on our security. there is no reason why you fouled have an intern and your e-mail. you should be able to handle your own e-mail. >> rose: can you imagine this, it is said and i have no way to judge, that you were really, really good. >> i will leave it up to people to decide. >> rose: can you imagine that if you had not gone one direction but had ended up in silicon valley -- >> well that's the problem i did end up in silicon valley. i had no connections to the world. here i was, this young poor puerto rican guy from the east side projects where no one knew i existed, i was profiled by the nypd, i had no formal college education, how was i going to get from there to the silicon valley? i tried. i did my own security company, that failed. so with no connections and no help from anybody, it would have been extremely hard to make it where i needed to be. had i made it to still con centrally and met you when i was 18 and probably pointed in in the right direction. >> rose: right. >> you and i would be having a completely different discussion. >> rose: thank you, hector. >> thank you. >> rose: for more about this program and early episodes visit us online at pbs.org and charlierose.com. >> captioning sponsored by rose communications captioned by media access group at wgbh access.wgbh.org >> rose: funding for "charlie funding for charlie rose has been provided by the coca-cola company, supporting this program since 2002. american express. additional funding provided by -- >> and by bloomberg, a provider of multimedia news and information services worldwide. you are watching report" with tyler mathisen and susie gharib. funded in part by -- thestreet.com and action alerts plus where jim cramer and fellow portfolio manager stephanie link share their investment strategies, stock picks and market insights. you can learn more at thestreet.com/nbr. shake it off. that's what investors did today after global worry sent stocks sharply lower at the open. what today's turnaround may signal for your investments and your money. >> new rules, why the federal reserve wants to make it more costly to be a big bank and rust rebound. america's heartland undergoing an economic transformation, but can this region known for its manufacturing path reinvent itself? we have all that and more tonight on
incredible perspective on things and that is something i hold very dear. i like people looking at the world around them and making observations and really balancing and checking them out and playing with the ideas and comparing them and has done that in a brilliant way and i love that. >> rose: conclude with hector monsegur, a former hacker who cooperated with the fbi. >> who will guard the guards, charlie? the security, the people that we hire with tax dollars, are not really secure themselves. so they are our attack vectors. do you understand? >> rose: i do. it seems like we are at a bad place. we are in a bad place. we are in a really bad place and as time goes on, you will continue to hear stories like oh the chinese government has infiltrated the post office, right? or the russian government has infiltrated the sewage system. it is going to continue to happen. >> rose: peter barack, david ignatius, rosario dawson, and hector monsegur when we continue. >> funding for charlie rose is provided by the >> rose: additional funding provided by: >> and by bloomberg, a provider of multimedia news and information services world wide. captioning sponsored by rose communications from our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose. >> rose: today the senate swell generals committee rhythms add highly controversial government document called the fine sign, feinstein report, the result of a five-year investigation, into the cia's detention program from the, and the years following the 9/11 terror attacks, those who read it say it is a damning indictment of the cia's use of enhanced interrogation, the report claims that such techniques were far more brutal than previously revealed. it concludes the agency's oversight of those activities was inadequate and despite its brutality enhanced interrogation did not lead to actionable intelligence. this morning dianne feinsten chairman of the intelligence committee spoke from the senate floor about her decision to release the report. >> history will judge us by our commitment to adjust society governed by law and the willingness to face an ugly truth and say, never again. >> rose: there are many who disagree with feinstein's decision, cia officials who reviewed the report say it does not paint an accurate picture of the activities, that the intelligence they obtained helped head off deadly terror attacks and any excesses described in the report ended years ago. many critics also worried the release of such incendiary information could spark violence abroad, it could even they say cost american lives, this weekend former president george w. bush spoke to cnn refuting the claims in the report. >> we are fortunate to have men and women who work hard at the cia serving on our behalf. these are patriots and whatever the report says if it democrats their contributions to our country, it is way off base. >> rose: we have covered both sides of the debate, many times on this program, the core issue has to do with humanity and torture, general stanley mcchrystal told me in january 2013 he was not a believer in enhanced interrogationqj?uq(rgiques. >> some people say you could get information. the point is both are true, sometimes you do, sometimes you don't, the reality is the effect it the has on you, i think when you become the torturer, something happens to that force. i think it has a i don't receive effect overtime. i think you move down a path that is difficult to come back from. and i think that happens to individuals involved and i think it happens to the force. >> rose: however here is what former vice president dick cheney has to say in june of in year. >> we were there under especially extraordinary circumstances and i took a lot of positions, positions i still hold that generated criticism enhanced interrogation techniques, and i don't hesitae to defend what we did. >> and former deputy director mike morell said in january of this year. >> the people who say it it wast effective want this to be easy. legal and effective. then you get to the morality question. you get to the question of is it okay to do these kind of things to other human beings? and reasonable people can differ on that. and there is a reasonable debate to be had. but it is very important for the, i think for the american people to understand that when you have that debate about whether it is okay to do this to other human beings you also have to have the debate about the flip side of the coin, charlie which is if you don't use these techniques, americans are going to die, what is the morality of that question? >> rose: joining me now from washington, peter barack, chief white house, peter baker, and david ignatius, thanks both for coming, peter let me begin with you, what is the what i house attitude about about this? we have seen what the president said but did they want this released and for what reason? >> well, they say they want this released and they said transparency is important, a way of turning the corner, but at the same time as you saw the president said in his written statement he put out today he wants to not refight old arguments he want this to kind of be the finale to this debate which has been raging now for almost a decade in this country, he wants people to think and understand that he considers these techniques to be wrong and he has banned them, and by order of 2009 and not focussing back to them again but he doesn't want to spend a lot more time relitigating over what happened in the last administration. >> rose: so why does feinstein think it is so important to release this. >> she spent five years looking into this, no doubt the most comprehensive version of any report we have seen publicly about these issues and this program, so i think she wanted to get out there in public so that people understood what happened, what didn't happen, and to make sure that it doesn't happen again. i mean, you know, vice president biden asked if this was a stain on our reputation, he said no a badge of honor owning up to mistakes, there is another side, the cia folks who were involved in this, the former bush administration folks involved in this they see this as a partisan report, they see this as a way of deprotecting attention and responsibility by the lawmakers themselves who they said were briefed at least in part on some of the things going on and wanted nothing to do with it. >> rose: you know the cia as well as anyone i know, as a reporter and columnist, they have said to me they think that they had legal authority to do what they did, that they disclosed what they did and they think that the report is neither fair nor complete. >> no question former and current agency officials like brown things this is a contentious report for the prosecution, they feel that they were given authority from the beginning, indeed they requested the justice department legal opinion saying that the 12 techniques their consultants had advised them to use were legal, there is a passage in the report that describes how condoleezza rice was briefed on those 12 techniques and then the justice department decision that the, but the president was not to be briefed himself. i must say, charlie, even for people who follow this issue carefully, over the years, this report is absolutely rivetting, it is painful to read, people will read it i think with some of the sense of anguish that people involved in the program felt at the time, some of the most poignant passages are about medical officers from the cia, about younger cia employees watching the early water boarding of detainees, watching as people were treated in these ways, well up with tears, one man just says i can't, basically i can't continue with this, it is a train wreck. you read over this dark history of these few years i think with emotion and the hope is that by putting it all out in such eviscerating detail finally it may be possible to put this behind us. >> rose: is that the idea, somehow we can in the only come clear on this, i am not saying clean but come clear on this and at the same time set the direction as to what the country and what the president thinks is -- >> i think the -- >> should do in a national emergency? >> it is precisely that charlie, it is finally to make a full accounting of this. it is what senate feinstein has been so passionate about since they seek this us in 2009, i think there are aspects of in report that are too contentious and trying to hard to make the case but what senator feinstein wanted to do is prepare a report that was so devastating that it really would draw a bright line forever in american history to say, never do this again and this report is so powerful it may have accomplished what she hoped. >> rose: also questions are raised as to the effectiveness of torture, do we get a conclusion in this, peter, about whether it accomplishes the purpose it is intended to beyond the question as to whether we should do it and whether it was legal at the time? >> that is an interesting question, there is a morality question is it the right thing to do and more question, the efficacy does it make sense out of it do you get out what you want? and this report concludes that the cia has vastly overstated the value of the intelligence it got out of the program, in fact, it outlines 20 case studies where the cia claimed, you know, results from the program that helped thwart attacks and put them ahead of the ball in the war against al qaeda and then dissect those case studies and say, no, in fact they didn't get what they said they got out of it or from other sources or could have got it other ways and basically questioned the whole value of that program from start to finish. now the cia doesn't agree with that and that's a really interesting point because you have john brennan in there the director of the cia, appointee of president obama and he says, look, i agree with the president for banning it but i think there was value in this program and that we shouldn't, you know, condemn the cia officers who were involved in it because they were doing what they were told to do and told was legal, so you had this positioning where the president is caught between these two different points of view. >> rose: peter, thank you so much for coming in, i know you are on deadline and i know you are writing but thank you again. >> always good to be with you, thank you. >> rose: pleasure. david, speak to this issue of the effectiveness of it and the cia's position and can they make the case and finally, were they given the opportunity to make the case to this committee? david? >> this question of effectiveness is the hardest thing for the outsider to evaluate. >> they make this with the 20 case studies in each instance where intelligence value is claimed for the harsh interrogation the intelligence could have been obtained other ways. >> cia officers who read the report all 6,000 pages of it, in fact, say that the way that the committee is organized the intelligence amounts to cherry picking and their arguments about these 20 cases is not convincing, it is done with hindsight that they look back and find the thing that could have told you what you ended up getting, a good example is the intelligence that led to targeting osama bin laden in abbottabad, officers say whatever you decide about the moral question, the value of intelligence gained from harsh interrogation in identifying who the courier was who kuwaiti was servicing osama bin laden in abbottabad, it is not clear that would have emerged without these interrogations. that is an argument of dispute about facts, i think historians will pick over that, i should just note, as important and in the end valuable as i think this report is, it is not the kind of judgment that historians would make and leaves out the context, what it felt like to be the director of the cia when you were receiving 50 threats a day, when it was believed that a second wave of attacks was coming, the second wave may have radiological attacks that is really not there, and also the argument that former officials like george tenet make they were never asked to comment, discuss, explain these issues, you know, you don't want to have a prosecution -- in a newspaper story where you make accusations and don't get the person who is being charged a chance to respond, and i think that that stay legitimate criticism of the report. people should have a chance to answer the charges that are made against them. >> rose: why didn't they do that? >> they argue at the time that they were compiling the report legal investigations were still going on and it wasn't appropriate, they also argue that they look carefully through all of the statements that were made by key people by george tenet, mike hayden, former director tors of the cia and taken their viewpoint into account even granting that i still think it is hard to refute the argument hey you should have given us a chance too respond. >> both the defense department and state department have put embassies and the lake on kind of alert. what is the expectation, what are they worried about,? >> charlie that one of the tough parts of this as we know from news reporting, secretary of state john kerry phoned the senate intelligence committee chair, chairwoman, senator feinstein and said we have warnings from foreign leaders that they fear an up tick in violence if this report is leaked and so obviously the people have been calling the united states expressing concern about what might happen. obviously from reading our morning knew newspapers we know the middle east is in a very fragile, delicate state right now, a coalition trying to fight isis that is very shaky, just try to stand up and this report could weak ken and destabilize it, an iraqi government that is similarly very fragile and who knows what effect the report will have. even given all of those points the idea you could indefinitely suppress information like this, just doesn't hold up to me and what senator feinstein said in morning on the senate floor was the there are always arguments for delay. the middle east will be unstable at any point in the future you can think of, so let's go ahead and get this out and make a clean rest of it. >> rose: david you are a successful writer, spy novels are there things in here you couldn't imagine writing? >> what struck they and what makes this a document worth your viewers reading is the human side of it, the cable sent back from the first use of water boarding against al qaeda member named abu sent pack by a medical officer who was assigned trying to recount what it was like in the room as water boarding was used, i mean this is a doctor a person never could have imagined that he would have in this situation. other poignant human examples like that, both of the cia officers involved and then of the arab detainees and you read this and it is just a kind of thing that is so nightmarish it is hard to believe in our recent history at all it actually happened. this is not an episode of homeland, this really happened and you read it and do think, wow, i am glad i never hahad to face decisions like the people faced and wow i sure hope we never have to do this again. >> rose: david, thank you so much. thank you, charlie. >> rose: david ignatius from the washington post. back in a moment, stay with us. >> >> rose: rosario dawson is here, she starts stars in a new film along with chris rock, the film is called "top five", she played a journalist writing a part on a comedian turned film star, "hollywood reporter" says it allows dawson to reveal a comic range we have never seen before. here is the trailer for the film. >> what's up this is andre allen when i listen so satellite radio i listen to serious hits one. >> just make it funnier. >> funnier? >> put a little scairchg on it. >> what is up mother (bleep) this is andre (bleep) alan. scratch my nuts that is. >> first take was good. >> >> in 2005 "time" magazine voted today's guest the funniest man in america. >> by 2010 the former stand-up hit it abou big with hand me thr one, two and three. >> you hammer time. it's hammer time. you can also see him getting married to erica long. >> can we do this on camera? >> not on camera. the camera doesn't exist. >> i don't feel like doing funny movies anymore. i don't feel funny. >> you give me a couple of really honest things i will be more than fair. >> this is chelsea brown, she is doing a story on me, no snitching. >> come to me, baby girl i will turn over like an apple pie. >> you just ate an apple pie you father mother. >> you need to wake up this mother (bleep). >> look at this black man trying to get a taxi in new york city. taxi. >> do you think the wedding is hurt me -- hurting me? >> this thing flopped, you are talking dancing with the stars. >> what am i going yo do. >> in the conference room. >> why don't you just skip the hard questions and go right to something good. >> how come you aren't fun funny anymore? >> she is hysterical. >> this is my town. anything you ned -- >> welcome, sir. >> i got married a lot of times, i wasn't into the wedding, i should have been into the guy. >> a ass you should be into the girl. >> my name is -- then i might let biggy get in there. >> oh, my god. >> ♪ >> hey, you mind if i get -- i need this. thank god -- i got a lock on it. give it to your boy. >> rose: welcome. >> thank you so much. >> rose: good to have you here. >> it is great to be here. >> rose: how long have you known chris rock. >> 16 years now. >> rose: describe the relationship. >> you know, it is -- we agree to disagree a lot. we have a very good banter, which i think luckily we can translate to this movie. it has been interesting to us for many years and i hope many people find it so. >> rose: that means you are different people. >> we are very different people but i think it is funny lake talk about things he is a feminist, activist in his own way and does it with his writing and stand-up and he does it in his own way and i love that, he really pushes people to think about things they might not other ways think about and forces them to laugh sometimes at things they could not potentially imagine a fathom laughing at because he has an incredible perspective on things and perspective is something i hold very dear, i like people looking at the world around them and making some observations, really balancing, checking them out, playing with the ideas and comparing them and always done that in a brilliant way and i love that, he makes me think, he makes me laugh and pushes me and chance me, he is awesome. >> rose: he wrote this piece with you in mind. >> uh-huh. i know. >> rose: what was it about you that you think he was writing to? >> that i -- i think -- >> rose: it was a challenge you had your own mind? >> uh-huh. i think very much so. i think he likes the way that we have kind of gotten to know each other over the years and talked and, you know, the things i appreciate, i speernt really loved his documentary good hair, i don't know if you saw it, it is so amazing and i loved the kind of father he is and just the person that he is and i think he jokes that the this is the movie he felt like if he didn't direct and do really great with that no one would ever let him direct anything anymore so he really brought it and really pushed it and he wasn't going to call a bunch of his friends to come on board for something he thought was going to be a stinking ship he had high aspirations for it and that's why he wanted me on board. >> rose: the central judgment is he is finally been as good in a movie as he is in stand-up. >> yes. >> he finally paid as much attention to all the elements of a movie as he has paid to stand-up. >> yes. he treated this like a stand-up and worked on the script for three years beforehand and when you watch his stuff, really seamless about watching his special and cutting between him and different outfits and listening to him tell a joke which feels like, because he is so familiar with the way he is and demeanor it seems like he is telling that joke for the first time but told it 100 times before he shares wit anyone and do that with the character and not looking like chris rock in a movie but being andre alan and i think there is enough familiarity for you to look at it and say okay he is being a comedian and an actor, okay i can the i see pier in the story and give him the benefit of the doubt but he did a lot of hat in an incredible play and he is working with acting coach on this mauve he was really determined to have to make sure he wasn't chris rock at all times and listen i am directing this and writing this and producing this and i am acting in this and the i don't want any part to be misconstrued or wrong or kind of, you know, kind of done in a way that i dialed it in because i was busy doing something else, please call me on it and it is one of the first things when he first approached me with the role i said this is great, congratulations, in is really awesome, well done on the script, have fun with that and he said, what? can wait a minute. you have to be in this movie with me and i said, you know, my grandmother passed a few years s before and i had just done a slew of movies, give me shelter, sent me into a trance and i just felt really exhausted and i just wanted to be home and i wanted to be with my family and really something to be said for taking the time to mourn and i needed to do that and my brother read the script and he said this is sweet, you need to do this movie, you will be home in new york with your family, you will be working with your friend, like talk to him about it, if you have some input you want to put into this character i am sure he would much rather hear you say let's collaborate on this than no and that's it, i talked to chris about this ad nauseum and said i have, auditioned him for his own movie and this was, you know, i am not used to doing comedy, i was like nervous, there is a lot. >> rose: chelsea when you first saw it in the script and after you tweaked her to become what you thought she was. >> you know, i think he had a really good basis for it because he did write this for me, there was a lot that felt really connected to and the really familiar with, but i wanted to push it, you know, i wanted to really, you are going to have this woman shadowing this man around all day and a fan of his, and also a single mom and sober and she has real issues and things in her life she is not just going to take it when he says yeah, drinking criminal had no effect on my career and this relationship is totally great and no robs with it and just going to call him on that and say i get to spend all day with you and never got a chance to meet you before and not walk away from this experience saying i wish i would have asked and pushed harder on this, no, as a matter of fact because i work for "the new york times", you need me, because this movie is going to fail, without me doing some kind of review, you going to let me talk to you this way and you are going to let me push you and takes advantage, and i like she goes toe to toe with him and i wanted to push this as far as she possibly could. >> as a director, how is he? >> amazing. actually. you know, that is one of those things you are about to work with a friend and you have, you know, you have ideas, and, i am going to push you, he would listen to me when we need this dramatic pause or different things because i know my drama and i would bite my nails and get nervous he would say this is going to be funny, trust me you will work again and, you can show your face in public and trust me, i know my comedy, and i felt like, what is so different about us and what is so great about us is that much more developed and that much more push because he doesn't, he doesn't flight you, it is not like he has had all of these incredible talents on here and so desperately to show she the big guy. there wasn't like this, i am sure he has a huge ego but it didn't feel like that, it felt like he wanted everybody to be great and there are no cameos in this movie, everyone has a shining solo moment and pushed that for me as well and it was amazing, you know, i call him, he says he is a protector, you know, he says he wasn't the director for but the protector, and i called him the conductor, all of these incredible instruments, tracy morgan and, you know, like whoopi goldberg and jerry seinfeld, a i mean, just amazing, amazing, amazing people an he would go i let them hit the hey note and okay they are feeling pleased and start to run out of pretty and just keep it going and oh, the guy with his back to the audience, maybe the guy not on camera right now he knows how far he can push you and he gets that thing out of everybody and he did that with every single person and they shine in this movie and he didn't back up off, he said, you know, on the previous films we e would do a show right during or after and save his jokes for that special he was going to do and he didn't do that, he said we are going to, i am going to put everything into it and i want all of you to do the same and we did,. >> your deal with drama, his field has been comedy, is this drama or comedy? >> as he says it i agree this is drama with a lot of jokes, a lot and lot of jokes but really hard-hitting i think it is very raw, this is a film because we didn't do it with a big studio and did it more independently he should make this sort of very adult, r rated film and really go there and hit certain punches and hit certain jokes and take thing in a certain direction you probably would not have been able to do had there been several chefs in the kitchen well we have to appeal to and do it this way. >> rose: there was one chef in the kitchen, the producer, scott rude den. >> yes. >> what is his role hear and what influences did he have on chris? >> chris, you know he worked with him before and he said i never went to you before with anything but this movie is really special and i want to make in this new york and with the locations i want and make wit the arguments i want to make it with and it is going to be really, really special if you back me and scott said yes and it was great, scott would be there, every single day, he would have his assistants there buying properties in china and developing other -- i mean it was 24/7, the man doesn't sleep, and he -- you know, he just would be there kind of laughing and maybe talking and stuff and any time this was an issue you went to chris, chris was really on top of it and on point, this would be this moment you feel, scott is just there and not saying anything and look up on the wide shot, the umbrellas are open and he says it is not going to cut have, and have all of these people in a frenzy, how did he see that? that wasn't his assistants or anything else, that man is brilliant, and he is in the position he is in and he has the notoriety he has because he earned it. >> rose: and extraordinary taste. >> very much so. >> rose: role the tape here is the first scene. >> she is going to be latina and may even be gay so we will have an asian president and w we will have another handicapped president. >> hold on we won't have a man difficult capped president. >> yes, we will, we already had one. >> i am talking out of the closet handicapped president. >> what do you mean out of the closet in. >> i have nothing against the handicapped but not everybody is as liberal as me, you run for president, you don't roll for president, you run a campaign, but don't roll a campaign. >> you are horrible. >> i am not horrible. >> that is sick. >> what is wrong with you? >> i am sick, i am the one voting for mexican lesbian handicapped president. >> literally i female when i watch this, it is like chris has this thing about wanting to just make me go, oh, like jaw drop and just like, flagger gassed that is his favorite thing to do and it is just .. we volley back and forth with this, i hear you are saying this to me but you need the hear this back and it goes and goes and goes, we may disagree a lot but it is awesome. >> rose: as a film maker making films which he is not in. >> 100 percent, i think that is one of the things, i mean, not that mel brooks or woody allen -- i think he is following in that lead of great comedians who could absolutely transition and wear that hat very proudly and very well of being a proper director. >> rose: clint eastwood as well. >> uh-huh, i think really, mel gibson son a lot of people who have turned, can do, ethan hawking jewel difficult -- who can work on both sides, angelina jolie is doing it right now, people are capable of doing that and definitely one of those people because he has a voice and has stories he wants to tell and perspective he wants to share. >> rose: what does rosario dawson want? >> everything. i have. >> you know, i have a lot of things i do all the time i am working on all the time. i did take that break after -- that i needed after this movie, i am glad i didn't do it before this movie, i did it after and got to end on a high note. >> rose: after this film? >> after this film, i didn't work for a year. >> rose: what did you learn? >> it wasn't like so i took so much of a break, i have my voting organization, ten years, latino, on the board of a lot of organizations from va, to girls club and worked hard with and a company i just started in ghana, it is a fashion line called studio 19, as a social enterprise to make social eman packet with the communities there, it is not like i wasn't working but didn't do stuff in front of the cameras so much and that was amazing, i like producing, i like directing, i like writing, i love singing, i lake a lot of things, i lick traveling and being with family my feandz families and friends and sometimes, well, the new game that is coming out right now is the arc of knights and all about that, that is going to be my christmas, basically, you know, but. >> rose: you going to give it for receive it? >> i am buying it for myself, and then i will len it to my brother, maybe, if me is nice. >> everyone from jane fonda to doris and people who have gotten a chance, like angela who had such a tremendous influence open me and these women, they enjoyed every single step of the way, talking to pat mitchell, it is so much better, i want to be in my 30s and enjoy it and thirties and forties and fifties and sixties and watch tyson, still be just magnificent and tremendous on stage and go how lucky i am that i am this the old test profession in the world, storyteller and stay rooted enough i can do it potentially to the day i die and that is a beautiful, beautiful thing. so i hope i can i get get to do in this this in all of the different ways. >> rose: and tell the stories. >> you can do it on the. >> rose: thanks for coming. >> thanks for having me. >> rose: "top five" is in select theaters, it goes wide on friday, december 12th. back in a moment, stay with us. >> >> rose: anonymous is am honk the biggest online vigilante groups they break into computer systems of corporations and governments hector mons fur was one of the most instrumental and steered cyber attacks on visa, mastercard, paypal, sony and the u.s. senate, in 2011 he infiltrated the 2 missian in support of protesters at the eight of the arab spring. later that year, he was apprehended after has beening into an fbi affiliate, he became an informant, allowing the government to log his acts as he engaged in hacking activities with his former piers. the fbi says he has helped them prevent more than 300 cyber attacks in systems controlled by the military and nasa. i sat down with his recently for his first television interview and here is that conversation. how were you when you saw your first computer. >> i saw my first computer when i was probably eight or nine. it is when i lived in ithaca, new york for a while, and it was cool, because, you know, i was bored, it was during the summer, and there was nothing to do over there. i had no friend, no family so basically my family inside a little house and pretty much there all day every day and we, it just so happened that my father or his wife saw an ad or knew somebody that were pretty much giving away a computer, old apple system, brought it to the house, old dot matrix printerrer and sitting there in front of it and in wonder, right? in is something relatively foreign to me, so by tinkoff-saxo everything with the system and learning how it tinkering with the system .. i was able to escape from the current situation we were going through. >> so you were self-taught? >> absolutely, i had no one to -- everybody around me were into something but it wasn't computers. you know,? >> rose: i mean, was it a passion then? i mean once you had that idle time and you had that device, did you -- i mean, did it feel like, my, god, it is the best thing that ever happened to me? >> close to it. absolutely. i felt like i could create, which is the most interesting thing, even a simple, as a child i was eight years old, i would create a document, just write into it print it out 1,000 times, wastepaper, it might seem ridiculous but it gave me a chance to create something. >> how did you start with has beening. >> it started with my interest in cola lumpur, i needed a way to get online and in those days getting online meant credit cards and you had to pay social service provider so i needed to find a way that would be cheap or free so i would be able to access the internet without being burdened to my grandmother who was really poor. and also, you know, growing up i watched films like war games and an old school film, also watched even hackers or sleepers, films that portrayed hacking so obviously my interest would be peaked as soon as i was online continuously without interruption. >> rose: you were known as sabu. >> yeah, i was known as -- i chose that name, probably around '97, before that i had a whole different name, it was random name, which i forgot. >> rose: yes. >> sabu. >> that is the name of a professional wrestler. >> yes, i used to watch him with my father, before my father went to prison, me and my father would sit there and watch you know, ecw at 2:00 in the morning and the coolest guy was the guy jumping off of buildings and, you know, doing reckless things so his motto was suicidal homicidal and genocidal while he is doing that he is jumping off buildings and i am hacking i decided i need a name, a moniker. >> i will go with sabu he is pretty interesting. >> so tell me about anonymous. >> oh, anonymous is or should be an idea, anonymous is an idea, an yd where we could all be anonymous, we could all work together as a crowd, united, we could raise and fight against oppression. that's what anonymous is. >> rose: and then there was -- >> that was you could say was more of a mistake, it was a group that had to be created, because what we wanted to do was something that many anonymous members were not ready for. were not accepting of it. at the time anonymous was more focused on like social protesting and low scale hacking. they weren't thinking outside the box. so once we did a certain hack, it gained a lot of attention, notoriety because it was a media -- media and security and we kind of got some game for it, that's when we decided to focus on wolsec because there were people in anonymous who didn't want to take the heat. >> rose: tell me about the feeling when you are hacking. >> oh, a thrill. it is actually exciting. it depends on your goal, obviously, i mean, if you are hacking to learn, the thrill is proving your concept, we call these proof of concepts, poc. once you could prove your concept then you have that thrill. >> rose: give an example of a concept. >> if you are trying to -- if you try to prove an exploit, like a mathematician who pro proves a theory, create an algorithm, and if it works, it checks out with his colleagues, you know, then that is his success. in a case of an exploit we find a vulnerability in a web application or some sort of software. >> rose: tell me how you operated the, how many hacks did you do? >> thousands,. >> rose: what was the biggest? >> my biggest hack to me that actually did something was when i participated in operation tunisia when i helped the 2 in addition, 2 missian people get their revolution. >> rose: you started, it started the arab spring. >> yes, it started? tunisia and it went insane, it was amazing, finally i was able to do something that contributed to society regardless of whether i was at home on the lower east side in the projects, hiding behind a computer. >> rose: how did that make you feel? >> wonderful, great, i felt like i was finally able to do something to help people. it was just -- it was hard, right? >> rose: i mean, that is a long way. >> sure. >> rose: using social media and using hacking to influence a revolution. >> uh-huh. >> rose: from targeting companies so that there is monetary gain. >> uh-huh. >> rose: right? >> absolutely. >> rose: two very different things. you did both?. well, yeah you could say that. i mean, i gained access to companies and when you access these companies automatically you have access to the database you have the credit cards instantly right there. it is not a matter of chasing down these credit cards and looking for the credit cards specifically. you are breaking into machines who have access to them instantly. so, yeah, i had access to the credit cards. >> rose: when did you know the fbi was on to you? >> several days before -- probably several days to a couple of weeks before my arrest, because i would come downstairs, take the kids to school and there is a random con edison truck in front of my building. how often do you see a con edison truck on the lower east side. >> rose: it should have been an indicator right there. >> you know the greatest indication? >> what? >> the mailman was hanging out with the exxon edison guy in front of my building. kind of random. so i knew something was off. >> rose: and the night the agents showed up around your door. >> eightish, 9:00ish and they knock on the door and say police, mind you, we are not doing anything illegal so i am pretty sure -- i am pretty sure it was didn't police at the door i said all right, guys, hold on a moment, i walked to the door and spoke to my brother and i said listen, just chill, relax. let me handle this. i went to the door, and here we are. we have a whole bunch of fbi agents in the hallway. i remember it was at least 14, 15 of them up and down the staircase doing verticals, we had some guys in suits in the corner, around the corner, on my hallway and, you know, they basically pulled me out into the hallway and said, you know, we are glad you opened the door in time because we were about to smash it in. all right what is the problem. >> rose: that's what you said? >> yeah. >> why are you here? >> yes. what is up? how can i help you they said well we know who you are. right? we know who you are. we know what you are doing, and we also know you have some kids in the house, so to keep it simple, you can either cooperate with us and come downtown with us and be back in the morning, or we are going to call acs and take the kids away, it is your call. you make the decision. so it is clear we had an understanding that my weakness. >> rose: with your kids. >> with does kids. this he did their homework. props to them, much respect but that was disgraceful, that type of situation. i would have loved to fight my case. it would have been beautiful. but unfortunately i was in a situation where i had to lose these two beautiful girls that were innocent and young and had nothing to do with any of this and why would i assist them in helping them create emotional complexes that would haunt them the rest of their life? i would rather take the weight, fine, by all means than have them go through this situation. of being taken away and lost in the -- >> rose: in order to keep your kids you had to do what? >> i had to go down town and admit to my crimes and cooperate with them. >> rose: how hard was that? >> one of the hardest decisions of my life and also one of the easiest because the children were involved i am not going to choose an idea or a measurement of strangers over these little girls so. it was a half-and-half situation. >> rose: so you went to work for the fbi? >> not that i went to work for the fbi it is that i was forced to have my computer logged by the fbi and it was difficult, it was very hard, but i was able to manage around it. >> rose: the fbi says that you helped them prevent more than 300 cyber attacks on our government. >> yeah. >> rose: on the military. >> uh-huh. >> nasa. what did you do? >> well, here is the interesting part. what i was doing before my arrest was unifying hackers, right? that was part of what i really did. that was the thing that made me so popular for whatever reason. unifying hackers, bridging the language gaps or bridging the hatred between groups or nationalities. so by being, so by being someone, iranian hackers and israelly hackers and indian hackers who come and share their knowledge and still accomplish their goals, probably on a greater scale, they also put me in a situation where when i was logged by the fbi they got to see attacks the whole time that were taking place against the infrastructure of the united states government. so with that being said, i was able to intercept attacks that were happening against the government and share wit the government. so they could fix these issues. >> rose: but also you took down how many? eight of the world's top hackers? >> well, you could say i took them down. >> rose: well they believe you took them down. >> i didn't identify anybody, or point my finger at anybody, i never asked a question what is your name? can i get your ip address? where do you live. >> but would they have been taken down without you? >> absolutely. realistically, absolutely. >> rose: but with you there was a huge advantage of having you there on their side. >> yes. because they had logs in the computer, i was there, i was essentially told do what it is you do, do not attack any american interests, any government interests so when you are told that guess what i am going to do, i am going to continue to do exactly what i did prior to my arrest, right? so what was i doing prior to my arrest? i was uniting hackers and activists from around the world, correct? after my arrest, i am doing the same exact thing. unfortunately now there are logs, that's the part that really hurt me the most. >> rose: tell me about jeremy hammond. >> an interesting character. he is not as they portrayed him to be. he was just a random activist who had some hacking skills and he wanted to be a part of low sec like many of the hackers. unfortunately for them it was only a team of six, losec but he hung around us and worked with us, we communicated daily, and once wall sec met its end he participated with operation anti-security. >> rose: you know what some of them are saying, they say you coerced them. >into doing some stuff. >> it is kind of difficult. the question is, it bothers me a little bit because prior to my arrest, my conversations with people were the same conversations you saw between me and jerry hammonds. oh you are hacking into the government of brazil? awesome, what information did you get? all right let's share that information and put it on twitter. so you are telling me that if i coerce -- what happens with all of the conversations i had prayer to my arrest. nothing has changed. i did not change from what i was doing prior so no there was no coercion. he hacked, i participated, we worked together, same with everybody else. >> rose: prosecutors have revealed that you have been cooperating with them. >> yeah. >> rose: an unusual public disclosure. >> yeah, kind of, right? from what i gather, doing research most informants are usually held secret. >> rose: exactly. >> until trial and if the trial does not happen they remain secret forever, i didn't go to trial, nobody went to trial, so the exposure is kind of baffling to me to be honest with you. >> rose: do you know why? >> i can't give you their perspective, unfortunately. >> rose: you talked to them. >> but i am sure it has to do with some sort of propaganda, how else would you kill a centralized movement with no leaders if you were to say that there was a leader? and the leader was sabu and he is compromised by the way. what happens after my exposure? if you paid attention to the social atmosphere of anonymous, panic, fear, people began to fall back from working in anonymous operations. it was dissway receive. it gave people a reason not 0 to participate with anonymous if their so-called leader was compromised. >> rose: i assume part of the government's attitude is about you, public disclosure, you know, that in the end, we will get you. >> uh-huh. >> rose: you cannot hide behind anonymity. we will get you. lack who we got. >> yeah. >> rose: we caught a big fish. >> yeah. yeah. you know what? it wasn't a matter of them just being sophisticated or their having some technology they could use to find me, i made mistakes. i made a lot of mistakes. >> rose: that's how people get caught. >> that's how people get caught. >> what is at this moment as we are talking the worst thing that hackers are capable of doing to the united states? >> well, it is a good question. and in all reality, there is no security. with that being said, airport security hackers will break right into the airport, power supply systems, turn off the lights and no lights in here, the water system, shut it down, auto pipelines, they will shut down saudi arabia for a day and the price of gasoline will shoot up ten or $20 by tomorrow. bureau of prisons where i was locked up, scatter systems, logic control systems, they could simply open all the cells across the united states. it is a matter of their goals, what they are trying to accomplish. >> rose: you are saying that is accomplishment -- those are accomplishments that can be achieved by people who are working today as hackers? they could do every one of those things? >> hackers can do more than that. >> rose: it is scary to me. >> it could be scary and it should be an inspiration to the american government to focus on our infrastructuring. >> rose: to make it more hacker proof? >> will, it is not about hacker proof. it is that our way of handling security in this country is competely absurd. for example, instead of educating -- let's say this office right here, where we are all government employees, right, you are the president and so on, and. >> rose: you are in charge of security. >> well, yeah, by all means i will be the security guy. so instead of you telling me, hey, hector, can you educate everybody about their passwords, how to secure their laptops because we have some special information in here we don't want to leak. no that is not what happens n real life what happens is the government which is you, the president would call mantech or raytheon and can you guys come over here and put some software, don't talk to people about security, install the software and give you a billion dollars for it and here we come with security contractors. we have a sickening remains on security contractors the likes of booze hamilton, booth hamilton, the company edward snowden worked for. who will guard the guards, charlie? how will security the people we pay for, and hire with tax dollars, they are not really secure themselves, so they are our attack verdicts -- attack vectors. >> rose: do you understand? >> i do. >> rose: it seems to me we are in a bad place. >> wither in a bad place, we are in a really bad place and as time goes on, you will continue to hear stories like oh the chinese government has infiltrated the post office, right? or the russian government has infiltrated the sewage system. it is going to continue to happen. until we change our perspective on security. we need to stop treating security as a contract job and accept security as a way of hive we need to think about, right? we all individually have the responsibility to focus on our security. there is no reason why you fouled have an intern and your e-mail. you should be able to handle your own e-mail. >> rose: can you imagine this, it is said and i have no way to judge, that you were really, really good. >> i will leave it up to people to decide. >> rose: can you imagine that if you had not gone one direction but had ended up in silicon valley -- >> well that's the problem i did end up in silicon valley. i had no connections to the world. here i was, this young poor puerto rican guy from the east side projects where no one knew i existed, i was profiled by the nypd, i had no formal college education, how was i going to get from there to the silicon valley? i tried. i did my own security company, that failed. so with no connections and no help from anybody, it would have been extremely hard to make it where i needed to be. had i made it to still con centrally and met you when i was 18 and probably pointed in in the right direction. >> rose: right. >> you and i would be having a completely different discussion. >> rose: thank you, hector. >> thank you. >> rose: for more about this program and early episodes visit us online at pbs.org and charlierose.com. >> captioning sponsored by rose communications captioned by media access group at wgbh access.wgbh.org >> rose: funding for "charlie funding for charlie rose has been provided by the coca-cola company, supporting this program since 2002. american express. additional funding provided by -- >> and by bloomberg, a provider of multimedia news and information services worldwide. of multimedia news and information services worldwide. you are watching ♪ "american masters" is supported in part by an award from the national endowment for the arts. art works. and by the corporation for public broadcasting. additional funding for "american masters" provided by...
The latest skirmish in the Propaganda Wars has all the elements of farce, many of the elements of a mystery, and quite a few of the elements of FUD. https://twitter.com/OldCaesarCole/status/554713065191530496 For those of you just joining this shades-of-grey morass, here's the short form: Today for about two hours the YouTube and Twitter accounts of US…
This post comes to us from FreeAnons, a group which does great work all year round supporting incarcerated Anons and those under threat of incarceration. They have asked that we all take a moment to think of those Anons, and if we have more than a moment, to write to them as part of the…