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republican leaders essentially articulating that as the reason -- >> lindsey graham has said that explicitly that he has a gun to protect himself against the government. ted cruz has said that. and, you know, this is, you know, this is, not to date myself, but i am old enough to remember when the second amendment was not even interpreted by the supreme court. it was only 2008 in the heller decision when the supreme court said there was any individual right in the second amendment at all, for most of the history of this country, overwhelmingly, the second amendment was interpreted as something solely about the power of militias, having nothing to do with individual right to keeping bear arms. but not only as you were just pointing out has it become gospel on the right that, you know, you have the right to have a weapon in your home to protect yourself against criminals who may come in and try to steal things or attack you. now, it's become a -- a vehicle
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called homegrown: timothy mcveigh and the rise of right-wing extremism. i got a chance to sit down with jeffrey toobin for the latest episode of my podcast, why is this happening, and we discussed how extremist ideas have migrated towards the center of the republican party politics, especially if fetishization of guns. >> it is explicitly a tool of violent insurrection, a murder against the -- and that used to be like a timothy mcvay soldier or fortune ideology that is really migrating into the halls of congress, to the point now where you hear elected republican leaders essentially articulating that as the reason -- >> lindsey graham has said that explicitly that he has a gun to protect himself against the government. ted cruz has said that. and, you know, this is, you know, this is, not to date myself, but i am old enough to remember when the second amendment was not even interpreted by the supreme court. it was only 2008 in the heller decision when the supreme court said there was any individual right in the second amendment at all, for most of the history of this country, overwhelmingly, the second amendment was interpreted as something solely about the power of militias, having nothing to do with individual right to keeping bear arms. but not only as you were just pointing out has it become gospel on the right that, you know, you have the right to have a weapon in your home to protect yourself against criminals who may come in and try to steal things or attack you. now, it's become a -- a vehicle for protecting yourself against the government.
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the heller decision. but it still leave room for gun laws even though it was seen as an individual right. and justice scalia was asked what is the difference between you and justice thomas and he said i'm an originalist, but i'm not a nut. justice thomas wrote the opinion, the brewing case, and that case, one of the really extraordinary decisions at the end of the last term in june of 2022, basically said you could not consider public safety when you're looking at whether a gun safety law is constitution. you can only look at history and tradition by which they mean some law from the colonial era or from the founding era. if they had that law then, then maybe we could have it now. and this is an unusual way to rule. >> and this originalism and original intent and you say in the book it is fundamentally
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describing at this moment, it does seem to be accurate that the court is doing things that the public in general, majorities of the public, are not comfortable with on abortion even on guns, you've written a wonderful book about the second amendment. most people don't realize that the second amendment did not prevent 200 years of gun regulation or at least 100, certainly going back to the 1850s and that it was a series of decisions really starting with heller, scalia's opinion, that completely transformed the legal landscape for guns. >> you're exactly right. it's sort of hard to imagine, but the supreme court never said the second amendment protects an individual right to gun ownership until 2008. that was the heller decision. but it still left room for gun
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>> right now the supreme court has made it clear under the heller decision, which still controls, they say there's a right to private gun ownership, and there's an ability for congress to legislate who owns weapons and what kind of weapons are owned, and i think we need to operate under that construct, and i see progress. we broke a 30-year logjam by breaking the initiative. we've seen republican states like tennessee looking at red flag laws and texas considering raising the age to buy assault weapons, and i think our movement has a position to win. does it worry me what district courts are doing? absolutely, but right now our focus has to be on growing the movement and capitalize. >> it sounds like you've got to do it within the construct of, look, you're probably not going to be able to regulate much having to do with access to a gun over 18. >> if the supreme court eventually says that states or the congress can't pass universal background checks or can't take assault weapons off
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constitution meaning of it -- this has to be better regulated. get a better notion of what a well-regulated citizen militia would be if we have a right to bear arms. it has to be more sensible than it currently. >> i encourage people to read the heller decision, 2008. it says, justice scalia said, the right to own a weapon is not unlimited. you can read his pull majority opinion there. just to piggyback off what john was saying if people don't want some gun safety laws on the books, can't be compelled by the death of children in schools, 9-year-olds in nashville, 6-year-olds at sandy hook, to do something a little more, maybe to prevent one or two of them what about police officers when you have police officers and police unions, not exactly known over the years as liberal squishes, saying, "we are outgunned. we don't think people should be walking around with ar-15s." when this 26-year-old officer in
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they'll have to pry my gun out of my cold, dead hands," which is something i heard on the campaign trail in '94. actually, if you read scalia's own words, own words in the heller decision, which is the framework for what the second amendment is, it says military style weapons are not protected by the second amendment right now. it's handguns and shotguns in a person's home. beyond that, states can regulate however they want to regulate it again, the lies that are spewed out, and these cowards, politicians, you know if somebody screams and shouts, "that's my second amendment right," doesn't mean it is a lot of times when people say it, it's not anymore yet, you go state by state by
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