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Transcripts For CSPAN2 Key Capitol Hill Hearings 20140130

deal with a serious issue i know the public will act accordingly. i appreciate the members of the public coming in here. we try to have the hearings as open as possible, senator grassley and i make sure they are streamed live and anybody can watch. but i would note the outset prohibit any outburst or clapping or demonstration of any kind. of course blocking the view of people around you, and please be behindful of the rule. and of course, the -- [inaudible] restoring america's faith in the department is the core mission. it's interesting the judiciary act of 1789, and senator grassley and i were here that -- but the office of attorney general has carried since the inception the responsibility to perk american and the safe guard the right and liberty to make our country great. it's why the attorney general of the united states, not the secretary of justice or anybody else. but the attorney general of the united states re-representing all of they face many challenges combating violent crime, fraud, and corruption, enforcing our nation's laws. several decades of mission department expands include protective civil rights for americans, we have to continue this today years after the jim crow rows of poll taxes that's why we recently joined with representative to introduce the bipartisan voting rights amendment rights act. we face more complex threat to the national security for fist skate -- sophisticated. respond to the threats but along with these rapid challenges it remains true 0 our core values of liberty, privacy, government response to the people. we live in a digital age. we know that. challenges are even more acute. every day americans generate a anonymous amount of information about their lives of simple routine tasks like using a credit card and sending a text message, calming a friend, and searching for directions on the web. the technology improves our life. it creates -- revealing vulnerable to excellent exemploy station. i ask at some point is there anything in the u.s. constitution that gives authority to the congress to pass a law that enables and empowers the executive agency such as the nsa or bureau of land and management, for that matter, to open, to listen, or seize either the mail, the phone conversations, or electronic communications of u.s. citizens simply by a law. in vermont we treasure our privacy and it makes me weary of government overreach or lax protection for consumers in these laws. i think it's the change show a need for congress and the department to act. we need to set appropriate limits how the government can -- assuming we have the power to allow and pass a law to allow any agency, any agency to do this. i'll continue to push for u.s. of freedom act as well as legislation report electronic communications privacy act. i thank the senators who joined on similar legislation. i have to ensure the huge amount of data that are collected whether assuming they have the right to collect them which is a big assumption, that they're collected and shared and by businesses the growing data breaches and identity theft that we're going to exam this issue details the hearing next week. it's important the department continues the criminal justice mission i know the attorney general and i shared a commitment to keeping americans safe, and supporting the men and women of front line and law enforcement and help victims rebuild their lives. we work closely last year, and i appreciate that, to reauthorize the violence against women act. the trafficking victims protection act. the critical improvement protect all victims. the president signed in to law the public safety office benefit improvement act. make significant improvement to -- benefit. it's important to our first responders. i appreciate the attorney general strong support for the goal of the justice are reauthorization act. the second chance reauthorization act, and forensic reform legislation. each of which are going to improve the effectivenesses or criminal justice system. i would like to see them enacted this year. i know, a lot of people in law enforcement like to see them enacted. i appreciate the bipartisan effort currently underway in the committee to address the unsustainable growth of our prison population. the time of shrinking budget all level of government if you do nothing and allow the prison population and consume more than a quarter of the department's budget eventually even more than that it makes us less safe. incremental changes to mandatory minimum is a good place. i want to thank them who work hard every day to keep us safe. i met with a lot of them. you're the face of the department of justice, you know there are thousand of people whose faces will never be in the news but are out there every day throughout the country, abroad keeping us safe. we pray for their safety. we appreciate what they do. it is our respect. senator grassley. >> before i read my statement, i would like to say to general holder, obviously you and i were bitten by a different political bug, but and we have policy differences we have more agreement than what you and i might realize a particular time. but i think the policy differences are legitimate and we can live with them. in my statement, i'm going make some comments about some administrative action where i think there's no excuse for and congress isn't being respected by your department, and whether it is your people within your department. within the least we ought to have responses to things where there should be no political differences. just wanting information. so i hope you appreciate the fact that if we disagree on policy issues and country carry over to things that when congress simply wants some administrative action an your part. i think you, chairman leahy, for the hearing. it's ab important hearing. oversight is very important. i thank the attorney general for coming here. you take some beating by coming here. at least you are fulfilling a constitutional responsibility of giving us information we need if public. i have so start by pointing out to the chairman we still haven't received answers to our questions for the record from the last oversight hearing with the attorney general when was over 11 months ago. it the department should show sufficient respect for the committee to answer the questions at least prior to the next oversight hearing. now 11 months elapse. we also haven't received replies to questions directed other department officials who testified at various hearings over the past year. this hearing also affords me the opportunity to call to your attention, general holder, the many letters that the department has yet answered. it's unfortunate we always have to start a department oversight hearing with a same request to respond to unanswered questions from the congress. for instance, back in early november, i wrote you about the justice department consult to health and human services on the affordable care act. hhs says that in consultation with your department it decided not to apply the antikickback statute to the affordable care act this is a clear violation of congress' move to strengthen antifraud laws. you have helped us strengthen a lot of antifraud laws. since i haven't received an answer to my letter. i'm going ask you about that today. i've also written to you about the department's hands of cases in which the national security agencies employees abuse their signals intelligence authority. in august after news reports about the cases, i wrote to the nsa inspector general about them. in response the inspector general indicated that since 2003, there were 12 documented instances of nsa employees abusing these authorities, in many cases, by spying on loved ones. it's good the number of cases was very small. but even one case too many according to the inspector general. six of these cases were referred to your department for prosecution. in october i wrote to you to request information about how the department handled these cases. i asked for a response by december 1st. i haven't received one. it's important for the public to know whether the department is taking these cases seriously. we need to deter this kind of behavior in the future gavin nsa's powerful capabilities. in addition, this committee has spent a considerable amount of time over the past six months considering various reforms to nsa. in a speech on this a few weeks ago, the president directed you as attorney general to the collection of telephone meta data. i'll be interested in hearing how it is proceeding. the president has also asked you to do a review of the fbi whistle-blower protection and recommend changes on how to improve them the assignment was contained in presidential policy directive 19, which claimed to create protection for whistle blowers with access to classified information. the president gave the 180 days to complete the review, and it's 10 month overdue. there's a lot of service to whistle-blower protection. but there is another example of how the actions don't match rhetoric. i'm concerned about the president's districtive. i recently had a whistle-blower from the cia contact my office. he was seeking to report alleged violations of the whistle-blower protections in the president's directive 19 false statements to congress and concerns related to legislation. he tried to get permission to share the classified detail with me, yet a cia lawyer wrote a letter denying permission claiming judiciary committee members aren't authorized to receive classified information from the cia, which is, of course, false. but it scares whistle blowers and intimidates them in to silence inspect is one of several things that suggests to me that even with the president's directive, we need stronger legislative protection for national security whistle blowers. another topic discussed is the department's nonenforcement of control substance act. in august the department announced it wouldn't challenge laws in colorado and washington legalizing trafficking marijuana. the department apparently believes that so long as these states create effective regulatory schemes, key federal enforcement priority wouldn't be undermined. those priorities include the diversion of marijuana in to other states, increase use among minorrers, and more drug-driving fatalities. however, i'm concerned in many ways, this policy is based on willful ignorance of the realities in these states: example, result of failure to adequately regulate medical marijuana, colorado has been a sharp -- has seen a sharp increase in public health and law enforcement problems related to the federal priorities in a few years. .. you will soon announce additional guidance that will prevent marijuana distributed in the states to use the banking system to engage in what is under federal law to money laundering. i'm also concerned that this administration hasn't been faithful to the constitution in a number of areas by unilaterally changing or ignoring laws passed by congress. in my view many of these actions are inconsistent with the constitution's requirement that the president quote take care to faithfully that the laws be faithfully executed end of quote however, your department -- your department's office of legal counsel is involved with this because they provided an independent check on executive action. the office of legal console is responsible or advising the executive branch on constitutional crisis. moreover the constitutionality of all proposed executive orders. last night during the state of during "the state of the union address" the president signaled that he will use executive orders aggressively to advancing his agenda this year. transparency should be brought to the office of legal console analysis of proposed executive order so that the american people can see whether they are subject to a rigorous constitutional review. thank you very much general holder for listening. >> please go ahead. >> chairman leahy, ranking member grassley and members of the committee i want to thank you for the opportunity to appear before you today to discuss the recent achievements and ongoing priorities of the united states department of justice. i would like to thank the members of congress for coming together earlier this month to pass a bipartisan budget agreement that restores the department's funding to decrease sequestration levels. we are reviewing this legislation to determine its impact on sis pacific programs and components but we anticipate that it will provide for the hiring of additional federal agents prosecutors and other essential staff. this will allow us to adjust innovative programs to keep supporting state and local law enforcement agencies and to continue building upon the outstanding work that my colleagues have made possible over the past year. as i have often said that the department's top priority must always be the protection of the american people from terrorism and other national security threats. since i last appeared before this committee we have continued to strengthen key intelligence gathering capabilities, refine our ability to identify and to disrupt potential terrorist plots and to ensure that those charged with terrorism related offenses can be held accountable to the highest extent of the law. as president obama noted that his speech two weeks ago in carrying out this work it is imperative that we continue striving to protect our national security while upholding the civil liberties that all of us hold dear. on monday we took a significant step forward in this regard when the department acted to allow more detailed disclosures about the number of national security orders and requests that are issued to communications providers, the number of customer accounts targeted under those requests and the underlying legal authorities. through these new reporting methods communications providers will be permitted to disclose more information than ever before to their customers allowing disclosure of this aggregated data will resolve an important area of concern to communications providers as well as to the public. in the weeks ahead as we move forward with the timing and limitation of this and other directives by the president my colleagues and i will work closely with members of this committee and other congressional leaders to determine the best path forward. we also will continue enforcing essential privacy protections and other safeguards concerning data possessed by the government as well as by the private sector. the department of justice takes very seriously reports of any data breach particularly those involving financial information and looks into allegations that are brought to its attention. now while we generally do not discuss specific matters under investigation by can confirm that the department is investigating the breach involving the united states retailer target and we are committed to working to find not only a -- the perpetrators of these sorts of data breaches but also any individuals and groups which exploit that data by credit car fraud. beyond this important work the department will continue to build on the progress we have seen and confronted, a wide variety of other threats and challenges from combating drug and human trafficking to addressing cyberattacks, protecting americans from violent crime and taking commonsense steps to reduce gun violence. earlier this month the department strengthened federal background check system by clarifying federal rules concerning mental health-based prohibitions for firearm purchases. under the leadership of our civil rights division we are working diligently with our federal agency partners to implement the supreme court's ruling in the united states versus windsor to make real the promise of equal protection under the law for all an american families and to extend applicable federal benefits to married same-sex couples. and we are vigorously enforcing federal voting protectioprotectio ns and working with congressional leaders for both hardees to refine and to strengthen the proposals that congress is currently considering to help ensure that every eligible american has access to the franchise. in addition last year as part of our ongoing efforts to hold accountable those whose conduct conduct -- the mortgage crisis the department filed suit against bank of america and ratings firm s&p. in november the department reached a $13 billion settlement with jpmorgan chase and company. this is the largest settlement of any single entity in american history to resolve federal and state civil claims related to the companies mortgage securitization process. i think that these results demonstrate that no firm, no matter how profitable, is above the law and they reinforce our commitment to integrity and equal justice in every case, every circumstance and in every community. this commitment is reflected in the smart crime initiatives that i announced this past august to strengthen our federal criminal justice system to increase our emphasis on improving diversion, rehabilitation and re-entry program and to reduce unnecessary collateral consequences for those who are seeking to rejoin their communities. as part of the crime approach a mandated a significant change to the justice department's charging policies to ensure that people accused of certain low-level federal drug crimes will face of -- and sentences will be reserved for the most serious criminals. alongside other important reforms this change will make our criminal justice system not only fair but also more efficient and it will complement proposals like the bipartisan smarter sentencing act introduced by senator durbin which would give judges more discretion in determining appropriate sentences for people convicted of certain federal drug crimes. i look forward to working with chairman leahy and the chairman of this committee and other leaders who have shown a commitment under senator rand paul to help advance legislation. thank you once again for your continued support of the united states department of justice and i would be happy to answer any questions that you might have. thank you mr. chair. >> thank you. we are all working together to try to get something that not only makes sense but that can pass the old one-size-fits-all and one that makes us safer and deters crime but it means we are spending a huge amount of money on things that don't make us better and has to take money away from good long enforcement that we need. last week the privacy and civil liberties oversight committee included a phone records program and i agree with that. for the recommendations you as the director of national intelligence has developed in the coming months executive actions. i think congress has to act to ensure that this legal theory as what i consider legal theory is not used by any administration to spy indiscriminately on its citizens. now, doj's current interpretation of relevance in section 258 could allow the government to -- any database that might someday down the road for some reason, somehow find useful. first, is there anything in the constitution that allows us to pass such an overbroad law to allow us to search anywhere we want and is there any meaningful limiting principle for the government's interpretation of section 215? >> i think you can look at what the government has been able to do in terms of surveillance whether it is wiretaps, and there a number of statutes that congress has passed that allows the government to engage in that kind of surveillance activity. i think the difference between those kinds of i think universally recognized programs in what we have seen under section 215 of the metadata program is that these other materials, the other programs are predicate-based. the metadata program is really the accumulation of material without necessarily a predicate the y will say clearing the database there has to be a predicate in that and is consistent with what has been passed by congress before and constitutionally upheld by the courts. >> well apparently we can pass something but we could also pasw for example that would allow any police officer to seize anybody and lock them up incommunicado for five years. you are a former judge and attorney general of the united states and i think you would agree with me that would not pass constitutional tests at all. so i ask again the question does the constitution give us the right to pass a law to allow the nsa for the bureau of land management or anyone else to collect such untraveled metadata from american citizens? >> i would say the 15 judges in the fisa court, to judge is one in california and one in new york, have looked at this question and made the determination that the 215 program is in fact constitutional. one judge from washington d.c. has decided it is not that i think that only deals with 1/2 of the question. i believe that they are correct that it is constitutional. it is an appropriate use in a constitutional sense of the governments power but the question is as to what the president has posed to us just because we can do something, should we do it? that is what director clapper and i have been wrestling with over the last 60 to 90 days to modify the program in the way the president has indicated it. >> you anticipated another question i was going to ask. does that result in the privacy of the civil liberties oversight board? >> we will be touching base with them. obviously there is a report that you can look at but i think we want to make this pretty wide-ranging interaction with those people that have been critical of section 215 and the other other surveillance program so that we have as much information both pro and con before we make recommendations back to the president. >> there were reports in the past week that the nsa and british intelligence agency are working together on personal information for smartphone apps. i have some questions and i will ask you in a classified form but what protections are in place to ensure the nsa doesn't do in end run around u.s. surveillance including the fourth amendment obviously and going to another foreign agency and saying hey we are collecting this information on americans. would you do it for us? >> under executive orders 12333 the intelligence community is not permitted to ask a foreign government to collect information that we ourselves would not be allowed to collect. so any attempt to have a foreign government acquire information that we could gather ourselves would be inappropriate and a violation of that executive order. >> the nsa proposed the use of unmanned aerial system, drums. the faa develop plans for operating in a commercial airspace by next year. we have also heard on this committee that drones or already being used for a number of areas in homeland security, law enforcement purposes. that raises a privacy concern. i can almost feel what my reaction would be if i saw a drone flying around over my farmhouse in vermont and what i would be inclined to do not knowing where it's coming from or what it was. what plans does the justice department have to use drones within the u.s. for law enforcement purposes and what kind of state guards are being developed? the orwellian aspect i find very chilling. >> with regard to the use of these unmanned aerial systems at this point the only component within the department that is using them in an operational way is the fbi. and i think we have to understand that if used appropriately they can serve a useful purpose. i don't think you remember the young child who was held hostage in a tunnel i think in georgia or alabama someplace. use was made of a drone in that case that proved decisive in resolving that situation and a good way. the inspector general of the justice department has recommended that we come up with a uniform system of rules and regulations within the department to control how these devices are used. i think that is something that i supported something that will be available. >> that i would like to work with you on development and i think other members of the committee on both sides of the aisle. simply the fact that we have the technology i can see in the hands of some, this is the latest and greatest whizbang. let's just go spy on everybody's backyard and everything else. i think that is a reaction the american public would make gritty significant as compared to the very specific targeted law enforcement the missing child thing that you mentioned. and lastly i apologize senator grassley but you talked about a federal prison population. this is a concern to many of us here. it's grown by more than 500% in the last 30 years and that is money, being up -- eating up money that can be used in providing assistance to state and local law enforcement. in fact the inspector general said the bureau of public, bureau of prisons budget is at the top of its list of management challenges, the top of the list. what is this increasing prison population doing to your other priorities? >> the bureau prisons budget takes up roughly a third of the justice department's entire budget and it precludes us from doing a variety of other things on this committee are interested in. those are the interest that i share. our ability to help our state and local partners with regard to grants is impacted. our ability to hire more prosecutors, more agents and more support personnel is impacted. we have to fund the prison system to make sure that the people within those systems are safe, that we provide constitutional care to people who are incarcerated but unless we take a think a fundamental look that has been suggested by use senator durbin senator lee and senator paul unless we take that fundamental look we will have the prison system that impedes their ability to do the kinds of things the american people expect the justice department to do. i'm very concerned about that and that is why i announced an initiative back in august. i think what i announced is consistent with what the members of this committee have suggested as well and that is why i want to work with you to get a handle on what is i think a growing and potentially very dangerous problem. >> please do because you have brought bipartisan support across the spectrum to find her way out of this. senator grassley. >> before my time starts can i follow up? i have the same concern you do about privacy being violated by drones but i want to point out that the airplanes in iowa and nebraska, the epa has some authority to spy on certain animal feeding operations but they were spying on people they didn't have the right to regulate with the airplanes. we would misuse them but i think you are right when you stab using them for a essentially personal to spy on people with whom they had relationships is totally inappropriate. we will get you a full response to indicate how those cases were dealt with by the justice department. but i share the concerns expressed. >> is a possibly can do that send. >> yes, we will do that soon. >> i have referred to presidential policy of 19 released 15 months ago. this follows up on my interest in making sure whistleblowers have protection. it mandated that you deliver a report to the president with one hot -- within 180 days and that would be april of last year to assist the effectiveness of the f. the eye procedure of handling whistleblowers. why i raise this issue is because we have had whistleblowers rights violated like robert cole this, jane turner getting the runaround for years even after the inspector general has found in their faith. however today there has been no public announcement that you review has been completed. why have you not issued the report every 10 months after the deadline and what have you learned from your review? will you provide a copy to the committee of the review? >> i will have to check on the status of that review. i'm not sure what shape it is in and whether it is ready for dissemination but i will look at that. again i share the concerns that you have about whistleblowers. i think that the people who have concerns about the way government is conducting itself have to have the feeling that they have places that they can go. and to report these things in a way that does not do damage to the government itself. and so if there is not that failing that they have mechanisms, establish a means to share those concerns we then end up with people sharing things in an emperor for a way perhaps with newspapers and other media and so the concern you have is a very legitimate one. this is another thing i will have to get back to you on to make sure where we stand. >> you mention concerns of the government i appreciate that because government has certain responsibilities but when you have one individual against the government, it seems to me it's pretty easy to see how that one individual is going to be run over if we don't see that they get their constitutional rights protect it. i had a question on drones but i think you have answered that. i will go to the office of legal consul review of the executive order that i spoke about. i mentioned my concern that the president has been using executive orders to circumvent the will of congress and the american people. i'm sure he does not feel that way. he probably really hasn't either but i will tell you it's a big concern for people who come to my town meetings. it appears that he may continue to do this. he said so last night. in the interest of transparency and wind transparency comes accountability. would you disclose to the public public -- so we can see whether they are subjected to rigorous constitutional review klaxon seems to me that would be one of your responsibilities. it seems to me you would want the president to only do those things that are legal and constitutional and if you would make these available -- the what the president has talked about is a desire to work with congress to pass legislation and in the absence of that to use the power that he has as president in a way that he described. what he is described as consistent with what other presidents have done over the years. i think if one looks at a number of studies i have seen this president has given far fewer executive orders than his predecesspredecess ors. >> i'm not questioning whether or not he can do it. i might have some question about the constitutionality of it and if he has got the constitutional authority and he's got the legal authority we can do it. we are just trying to determine whether or not he has exceeded that authority and your people are making that determination. is there anything wrong with the public saying what the basis of it is? >> i think we can certainly look at the requests made and we will have to see exactly how the president proposed executive authority and to the extent that we can share the determinations. i would be inclined to share that in inappropriate ways. >> okay. if you can't share it with me will you tell me why -- or you can share it with? i don't just want to be in a black hole here. >> answer and we generally have is that we want discussions about these matter where llc lawyers write pros and cons about a particular issue. >> i am interested in the outcome, not the debate within your agency. just what is the outcome. >> the memos memo still contain all of the arguments with a conclusory couple of pages or whatever. we will try to find ways in which we can share this information with you so that you and other members and the american people feel that the president is acting in an appropriate way. to the extent that it makes use of this authority at all because as i said the primary inclination and desires to work with congress to pass necessary legislation that i think all the american people want to see in. >> i think the chairman if he would give me a couple minutes because he took two and a half minutes. >> i'm not sure about that. [laughter] >> the last question or maybe a half a question after this one would be this simple. this is a discussion i had with the secretary of health and human services in another committee. they announced that it does not consider affordable care act plans to be quote unquote federal health care programs. that exempts him from the anti-kick back laws and undermines the congress and health reform law to make any kick backs a violation of the false claims act so you got a interest in the false claims act as well. secretary cavill you said she made this decision after consulting with your department. i asked secretary civilians why these plans are any different than medicare advantage. she claimed advantage plans are different because payments are made directly from the medicare trust fund. so i wrote to you about this last november and i would like to know when i might be able to expect a response but more importantly whether you agree with secretary civilians that the affordable care at plans should be exempt from the anti-kick back laws. he doesn't seem to me like you want to exempt anything from the anti-kickback laws. and what is the department's advice to the hhs in writing and if it is that like to have a copy of it. >> i want to sound sound like tabruk and record but that's something i will have to examine what they have there but i will say we have been very aggressive in enforcing the anti-kick back laws and recovered record amounts of money over the last few years. i would have to look at the particulars with regard to the affordable care act for the applicability of this provision. >> this is action according to the secretary of the department has already taken so there ought to be a sheet of paper on there that you can give to us. the half question i was going to ask, you have one more day to decide whether not the boston bombers going to be subject to the death penalty. what is your decision? >> we will be announcing that by the deadline. >> thank you. >> incidentally the money that the bureau of justice has set an all-time record high complement you on that. senator durbin. >> mr. grassley's amendment is what brought us into this world in terms of bringing members of congress and their staff into the affordable care act which we are now under and it was not complete when it came to anti-kickback we will certainly make sure that it is. >> i didn't know that. [laughter] >> i think every staff member, every staff member in the congress ended up paying considerably more for their health care know that it is the grassley amendment that did it. >> mr. chairman if i could address the two questions related to the wheels of justice each year when you appear mr. attorney general i ask you the same question in you give me the same answer about racial profiling guidelines and you say really soon we are going to work on this. this year i would like to ask you, how quickly can we expect new racial profiling guidelines when it relates to the issues of religion, national origin and whether it applies to national security and border security cases? >> i don't want to repeat the words really soon given what you said so i will say that they are forthcoming and from in the -- forthcoming in sooner than really soon. we are working with those. there has been a review underway. and i'm mean this very since early. we are surely in the final stages of this. the proposal is being circulated for comment within the department and my hope would be that it would be out of the department very soon and obviously there will be white house involvement because we are talking about the 2003 executive order but i would hope we would have inability to talk about the modifications that i think are in a forthcoming way. >> we also address question number two. 155 detainees remain at one, mouth. i want to say for the record this has been the subject of a lengthy debate here in congress. the president made his intentions clear when elected to close one, mouth yet resistance of congress has thwarted him from accomplishing that. for those who want establishment record, over 500 people have been convicted terrorism and terrorism related crimes through our judicial process since 9/11 in federal courts. in contrast there have been six conventions and one plea agreement from guantánamo's military commissions. two of those convictions have been overturned. the most dangerous terrorists that have been convicted through our traditional system reside in her prison system and the worst of the worst in maximum security. we spend on average $78,000 a year in facilities like florence, colorado maximum security to hold the most dangerous criminals in america including the most dangerous terrorist and there is never ever been an escape were questioned of an escape. we are spending for the 155 detainees at guantánamo on average not $78,000 a year, $2.7 million a year per detainee. it is an outrageous waste of taxpayer dollars. we were going to start a process to start reviewing the 155 detainees in the hopes that we could dispose of some, dismiss some, transfer some. it took a long time to get started. the wheels of justice unfortunately went very slowly. the president issued an executive order in march of 2011 the first periodic review board hearing at guantánamo took place in november of last year. earlier this month aboard recommended for transfer transfer of the first detainee in question. the second periodic review board hearing occurred yesterday. i'm glad to hear that progress has been made but with 155 detainees, 71 of whom are eligible for evaluation mr. attorney general we can't let the long enough to go through this process. at $2.7 million a year per guantánamo detainee? can we get this process moving in an orderly and faster way? >> it think we can. the president has indicated from the day he took office that he wanted to close the guantánamo facility and he put me in charge of an initial review that was done within a year they categorized all the people in guantánamo, those who could be tried in military commissions and those detained and those who could be released and those who had to be detained. we did that. we did that and i will say with all due respect congressional restrictions that were placed on us thwarted our attempts to close guantánamo any more timely fashion. you are right, we are now in the process of this review board and review board process largely based on what we did in the earlier task force that i was ahead of. we are trying to do all the began to close guantánamo and i'm actually grateful for the loosening of the restrictions of the latest budget act that makes it easier for us to effectuate that closure. but this is something that for the fiscal reasons you talk about but also for national security reasons that the continued residence at guantánamo closes that facility simply has to be closed. >> the sooner the better from my point of view and i wish more members of congress felt the same way. you were in chicago in november of last year and at the installation of the u.s. attorney who was a unanimous choice of senator kirk, myself and the bipartisan review panel and you made encouraging statements about commitments that were going to him be made to chicago to deal with the violent crime problem and murder issue. giving credit where it's due the superintendent of police has made extraordinary progress in this regard but when he does help. can you be more specific in terms of the resources and personnel that you will make available to help us fight these problems in fighting crime? >> we are looking at several ways in which we increased the number of federal agencies in chicago on either a temporary or permanent basis and also grants that we can make available to the city. i'm going to be speaking speaking to mayor emanuel tomorrow. the purpose of the conversation at least one of the things we will talk about are the specific needs he can identify that he might able to help with. i will also be talking to zach martin to get his perspective on this as well. i think that we want to do as much as we can but i don't think that would obscure the fact that the city administration working with the u.s. attorney i think it's made significant progress and i don't think necessarily they get all the credit they deserve for a pretty somatic -- dramatic decrease in crime in chicago that there is federal assistance we need to talk about. >> my time is up but it up with the new provisions bill you will be able to find u.s. attorneys to help him. thank you mr. chairman. >> welcome mr. attorney general. appreciate your service. i'm going to turn to a series of questions and i will try to couch them so you can answer yes or no. to the extent that you can i would appreciate it but before asking questions about the nsa surveillance matter i would like to express my concern about the department's refusal to fully enforce the controlled substance act. erdogan is now widely available across the utah border and in colorado. federal state and local law enforcement have seen success in going after marijuana growers on public lands in utah. there is a direct link between the u.s. marijuana. and large-scale drug trafficking organizations that threaten the safety and well-being of our country. legalization in colorado threatens the success that we have been seeing in tackling the problem. controls on the gold marijuana are unlike way to deter drug cartels from ramping up their operations on public lands in utah and elsewhere. especially since the man -- demand in colorado is wildly exceeding supply. i really think this policy shift sends a mixed and dangerous message to both the law enforcement community and fellow citizens. do you share my concern that legalization in one state can encourage more illegal marijuana production on private lands by drug cartels and others in bordering states? >> i will do it very quickly. i share those concerns than those concerns are expressed in the eight priorities we set out in preventing the diversion of marijuana under state law in some form to another state. growing marijuana in public lands in preventing marijuana possession on the use of federal property and these are three of the eight things that would reciprocate federal government action by the tsa. >> okay. general holder a debate about nsa surveillance is in full swing. it was hardly a way to start the debate but here we are. a lot of the attention has been focused on the nsa's collection and analysis of the so-called telephone metadata as you mentioned. it's worth reminding ourselves when -- what that information is somewhat it is not. it includes the telephone number calling, the number they called and the date and time and length of the call. is that correct? >> that is correct. does not include information about the identity of the caller of the content of the call. >> that is correct krusbe the privacy and civil liberties oversight board issued its report last week. excuse me. including, i apologize. including the patriot act does not provide legal authority from the nsa metadata program. in an interview last week you noted at least 15 judges in dozens of occasions that is that the program itself is legal. is that correct? >> that is correct. >> to be clear is that your provision that the collection of metadata under section 215 of the patriot act is legal and the oversight or its conclusion on this point is ron? >> that is my view. >> it is mine to matt. someone who is on the intelligence committee. in your judgment has the nsa abused or misused its capability to collect and analyze telephone metadata? >> i think the nsa has acted in a way that is consistent with the law but as i indicated i think that is part 1 of the analysis of them part 2 is whether or not we are getting from the acquisition and retention of that data material that is sufficient to deal with the civil liberties privacy concerns that others have expressed. that is what the president has asked us to look at. >> one more question about the oversight board's conclusion on the locality of the metadata program. in creating the board congress authorized it can do two things. first, to ensure that the need for executive branch actions in protecting us from terrorism is balanced with the need to recheck privacy. >> that is true, yes. >> second to ensure that liberty concerns considered in the development of laws and policies in this area. that is true? >> i believe that is true also. >> these responsibilities call for recommendations on conclusions about policy but i don't see how they include opining on legal issues such as the locality of the metadata. did the oversight or exceeded statutory mission in addressing this issue? >> i will be honest with you i'm not as familiar as perhaps you are as to what their statutory mission is. i will accept as legitimate the concerns that they expressed no i do not agree with their legal determinations and their legal analysis. >> i think they exceeded the statutory mission. .. >> he said that it was not itself specifically preventing a terrorist attack. must there be presented as president perman in actual a hack in order for to continue? >> we fall into -- i think that we fall into a false scenario. and we judge the validity or the value of the program. there is a mosaic of things that we take into consideration in determining what we are asking in an optimum way. we are talking about the continued need about section 215. i don't think it is the only way you can test the validity or the need for it, whether or not it has presented this many number of attacks. >> in march of 2012, the chairman has been a little more time so that i can finish this line of questioning. >> he will be given two more minutes. >> i'm very grateful to him. you disgust oversight of surveillance programs under section 702 of or intelligence surveillance. the justice department and director of national intelligence conducts oversight reviews once every 60 days and reports to congress at least twice a year. i understand the surveillance programs under section 215 of the patriot act and 702 is different. would you say that the metadata program under section 215 in toys oversight to that which he described under section 702? >> i think there is sufficient oversight between what the justice department lawyers are looking at of materials that are presented to us by the fisa quarter. >> that is right. >> one of the proposals is for telephone companies rather than the nsa to store the metadata. telephone companies do not support this idea. but suppose they do. today only 22 individuals of the nsa have access to this metadata. twenty-two people. but there are dozens of phone companies of each which would have to maintain these records. and have some number of employees. including some kind of access in addition to the 22 analysts and nsa we still have access to query these databases. how can you possibly provide a comparable level of supervision and accountability statement we can come up with an alternative way with information to be stored in the issue that you have raised. or not has to be resolved. and i think we have to answer the question as to how we can maintain and put it in a different place to maintain the integrity and i think the nsa has done a pretty good job of. >> i have additional concerns about the security of the metadata of the phone companies. horizons on data breach reports upon the privileged misuse and abuse by insiders that play a role of data breaches over the past year. the company can only do so much to protect against outside threats to the network. do you believe that the metadata would be more secure in the hands of the private sector than the nsa? >> i think that we have to try to figure out if we can do that. we have to find out if we can maintain that whole question of maintenance security and we we can do it in a different setting than we presently do at the nsa. that is one of the tasks that the president has given to me and to the director eric clapton. >> thank you, mr. chairman. i appreciate the extra time. >> thank you, senator orin hatch. i yield myself seven minutes. plus whatever else i might need. okay, it is very good to be here and i want to thank you. [laughter] i want to thank the attorney general for the good work that he does. i know that he has aided with great skill by two former chuck schumer employees camellia williams who has been gone for a while and brian fallon we miss very much. and so first on autism spectrum disorders. i know you are familiar with the case. he is a child with autism spectrum disorder. and he wandered away from his school this fall without help. 50% of all asd children wander in his remains were found three months later about 11 miles from the school where he vanished from. the heart of new york's win out to his mother and grandmother and i have numbered them and i know that their grief and heartache is big. cheered by many parents with autism. you can imagine it's a very heart-wrenching situation. and so right after he went missing, i call upon the department of justice to expand a current grant program that you have in place, which is provided for the use of tracking devices to work with patients diagnosed with alzheimer's and families of those patients. the programs administered by the bureau of justice assistance. we have been doing this for alzheimer's patients at the justice department that funds the program. so it seems that almost it is obvious that hand fits into a glove that we can do this in people with alzheimer's do as well. it seems like just a perfect fit to do the same thing with children with autism. and it is not available for salaries with children of autism and so have you been able to identify any other streams of assistance pursuant to my request? >> i think this concern that you have is a very good one and a legitimate one. it is something that is going to help a lot of kids. and these transmitted bracelets, sometimes they have bracelets on the ankle. >> it will be made available for the purchase of the device are meant to localities we can apply immediately and that is great news and i really appreciate that and it's a big step forward. one other question is in order to ensure a permanent adequate stream of money for this, i have introduced legislation and we call it in new york avante's law. named after this lovely boy. it creates a new glance that will be available to local law enforcement schools and nonprofits to assist children with autism spec or disorder. it will authorize $10 million and that is how much i think we spend on the alzheimer's. in order to help fund the purchase of voluntary tracking devices. and what you are doing is great. it will solve the problem. and legislation would ensure this. and do you agree with the general principle of trying to enact this in statute? >> i think that given the nature of the unique issues with kids with autism issues face, in which our nations responded and they ought to be treated in much the same way. so i can't commit. and i think that it makes a great deal of sense. >> we will go through the long laborious process he has got to 40 different agencies and get their support for this legislation, which we hope will be forthcoming. now i would like to turn to media shield. and i appreciate the administration support with the free flow of information act, which would protect confidential sources by providing clear and reasonable standards. additionally it will advise guidelines governing the obtaining of evidence from members of the news media is a step in the right direction. but that hasn't been finalized once the department sent its report to the president. so when will the revised guidelines be finalized in the code of federal regulation when will go into effect? >> i would expect that we would have it available for comment within the next couple of weeks. i hope that we would have them done by this hearing. there was a little glitch towards the end. but i think we will get through that and we will have them available for public review and comment and i will say that in spite of the fact that they are not yet issued, we are working under them as if they were in place and we are also looking to the board that we are putting together. >> has the committee been established? is it officially working or unofficially working? can you give us a status of the review committee. the news media dial up group is what you called it. to assess the impact of the department's revised new-media policies. and another one would involve outsiders on a periodic basis. with an update of the reforms we have put in place. mr. fallon has been working to come up with the appropriate people for the outside board. >> how soon do you think? >> i don't want to steal him and his thunder here. >> we expect the first meeting will be at february. >> thank you very much. thank you, mr. general. i will call on senator sessions and turn over the process and engage in the august process of turning over the gavel to senator klobuchar. >> antistate within your time. very well. you mentioned gun violence and crime. were statistics and the total prosecution of guns declined 5.2% this year from last year. and i think the prosecution does make a difference. i would continue to keep the numbers up. and having to deal with the mandatory sentences, i would just say that i was there only have the revolving doors in the 60s and 70s. and the we as a nation created a system. in my college have to be careful and if we go forward until we go for to analyze some areas where the crime and punishment can be reduced. and i think that her position is sound. and the percentage of young people are going to the university of their state, 50% plus in the nation energize itself and nancy reagan had the just say no program. the coalition is involved in we created and worked to create. and it is not socially acceptable. and the trend talked about starting any other way. less than 25% of high school seniors under that study admitted to using illegal drugs. i invested bituminous amount of my time. including the varied by ability of our educational system and the future of so many and i have to tell you that i am heartbroken to see what the president said just a few days ago. it is just stunning to me. and the headline is that obama on pot legalization, it is an important point to go forward. and i view it as a bad habit. not very difficult from the cigarettes i spoke as a young person. i don't think it's more dangerous than alcohol. it has less impact on the individual consumer. and i probably overstated the case. this is just difficult to me, as you can see how the president of the united states should make such a statement. >> are prosecuting the same number of people from 2007 through 2013. then we have made that with a number of other cases that are down. do you agree with the? >> i think that i have not read the article yet. and we thought the use of marijuana by young people was not a good thing. >> if there is indication that the marijuana is being distributed this that would require federal involvement. >> give us your opinion. and included in that would be alcohol. >> i don't think it is more dangerous than alcohol. do you agree with that? >> i think that any drugs that you use in an inappropriate way can be harmful. in alcohol is among those as well. >> using marijuana, is against the law in a is an appropriate use? >> welcome as i said, for young people to do that, that is something that violates the federal law and something that we said that we would continue to use. >> the president has appointed and it is also a benign substance that has no ill effects. >> miners will involve an entailed a very vigorous federal response. and i'm not sure that that is not necessarily true. >> attorney general holder, if marijuana is legalized for adults, it makes it more available for young people? >> i say that only because the alcohol, people can't buy alcohol until your age 18 and younger people found ways to get alcohol because adults can. >> to the president conduct any medical or scientific survey before he waltzes then and it is universally prior to that? that marijuana is not -- that it is not come as i have quoted him, did he study any data before he made that? did he consult with you before you made that statement? >> no, he did not. >> what about this study from the american medical association of october 2013. and this includes anxiety moods and psychotic thoughts disorder. in this study found that marijuana users have abnormal brain structure and that chronic marijuana use may lead to brain changes resembling schizophrenia, the study also reported in did you discuss or see those reports? spirit i have not read those reports from the ama. they are good reports. that is exactly why one of our eight enforcement minorities is the prevention of marijuana to minors. lady gaga said she is addicted to it and it is not harmless. and patrick kennedy said the president is wrong on the subject. then we begin to pull back from this position will be adverse to the health of america. >> we are doing a lot of soul seeking. we have a lot of those that are observers of the department and i think that we are very appreciative of the fine leadership in the department of justice. and we have a cybercommand with two four-star generals, leaving nsa. and on the law enforcement side, our administrative advancement to meet this threat has been, to put it mildly, it has been incremental. and there is a lot of responsibility for cyberthreats within the department of justice which is divided between the criminal division of the national security division. and they do a tricky job. in the spending bill, thanks to chairman mikulski is exemplary legislation talents, there is a provision that provides 120 days, within 120 days to put forward a multitier strategic plan. and so they will cripple us if we talk about the budget stuff without their presence and what it will look like with the prerogatives over the budget issue with omb. as we go forward, we are going in a moderate pace. requirement will be done within 120 days and i'm expecting that they will actually have a report within 120 days and i'm hoping that you and omb will put suitable effort. at a rapid rate in which this is growing and morphing into more complex and varied threats, all the ways in which it can affect ordinary americans. and it adequately structured with the problem in the long haul. what assurances can you give me about this with a multiyear strategic plan within 120 days. >> i don't want to be alarmist, but i think that this is well-founded. >> we have a lot of cybercapabilities that are associated with criminal organizations and nationstates. and we have adequately responded to it. and we have an examination to come up with this multiyear plan. and we will take it within that timeframe and i think that members of congress have expressed an interest. and it will be with us, i expect, throughout the duration that will only give orders. and the dangers will only be heightened. >> i spoke to the fbi cyberdivision yesterday morning. and used the example of the united states air force. and it began as a subcomponent of the army signal corps. and the other thing i want to raise with you is that many of us have been shocked by the discrepancy between the filings of political organizations have made and they had spent tens of millions of dollars in political activity. and i expect that that will reflect false statements under section 1001. and there have been no cases because the iris hasn't referred anything. and now they have decided to take a look at those rules. and make sure that you are comfortable were the rules are coming out and make sure that if there are open and notorious conflicts by these organizations and get in front of a grand jury and find out if they are, in fact in the problem exists with the tax reform act. it is always guarded that exist between the department. and with an open and notorious violation appears to be having in place, there is nothing that prevents the department of justice from saying, why are you not referring this to me? i can see what is happening in the plain light of day. they set $0 filing under oath. someone is lying and we need to look into it. i think that is just defining what extraordinary means. and this is an ideological issue. i think it should be held to the full letter of the law. >> senator cornyn? >> i want to introduce you to a constituent of mine and senator cruz. catherine ingle direct of houston, texas. she is dedicated to furthering the ideals and improving the elections of our founding fathers. she leads a coalition of citizen volunteers that work as election monitors that provide resources for voter registration drives and are dedicated to rooting out election fraud. and yet the federal government has targeted catherine ingle direct and her organizations with her harassment and discrimination. through the vote of the patriotd for nonprofit status and they wanted to participate in the political process. when the irs failed to respond and a few weeks later, they began a series of gratuitous and inquiries into the situation. the federal government, every facebook and twitter post that ms. englebrecht have ever posted. but this kind of abuse of power has been limited to the irs. according to cbs news to arms targeted this. and the fbi made calls to king street patriots and attended some of its meetings. in coincidence? may be. where there's smoke, there's fire. and we now know that it is one of the conservative organizations that was targeted for discrimination and harassment. and it is based totally on their political beliefs. in the business that they built, simply because they dare criticize the federal government. this is telling. and it should be acceptable to united states of america. and he called this scandal and intolerable and inexcusable. no one has been accountable for this abuse. and i can't imagine how this would be instilling public confidence in the investigation. and it is an important one for his agency. but now it has been publicly reported that the department will not pursue criminal charges against any irs officials. even though the fbi investigation has not been concluded. and shockingly, the department made this decision and she has not heard a word from the fbi. so i want to know, general holder, what you have to say to ms. englebrecht. those spending thousands of dollars to defend themselves against the internal revenue service for daring to exercise their constitutional right to participate in the political process. and i would like to ask you whether you agree to make sure that your department consults personally with every victim of this type of intimidation by the federal government. and what count of accountability can expect from abuse of power. and you made similar concerns. >> i actually ordered the investigation into these matters. and the treasury inspector general and the fbi indicated that this is a matter that is an open inquiry in the matter is still going on. and what is actually going in in the investigation comes as the blood not been made privy coming to something that is open. it is something that is preceding. >> is there a potential for criminal charges with the investigation. and obviously there has been a determination but it has not resulted in the decline of the case. >> if you think it is important to protect the most people the most information about what exactly happened? like this victim of abuse of power like katherine englebrecht? >> i'm not sure who you refer to, but i'm confident that the other investigative agencies to conduct a thorough and conference of investigation and that is why matters like this take as long as they do. >> would you please make your to me and publicly to contact katherine englebrecht and get her side of the story? and she seems like a logical person to talk to her. i don't have any independent knowledge as to what the involvement is what the organization is about. that is something about the to the people who are career professionals make determinations as to who needs to be interviewed. >> i hope the department would talk to victims. >> thank you, senator cornyn. senator klobuchar, i'd like to also turn the gavel over to her. and we have had so much available to both sides of the committee whenever we have called you and we appreciate that. >> thank you very much, mr. chairman. welcome and thank you for being here. you and i have talked about as many time and i want to make sure that my republican colleagues and the state of minnesota has not had a full-time attorney for 882 days. they were appointed to head up the atf after syria, he did an able job and now through the vote of the senate. during that time for two years he was a part-time u.s. attorney in fact he was at the atf much longer than he was u.s. attorney. and i have had federal judges call repeatedly. we now have a very good candidate who is supported by law enforcement. and now the senate has decided not to take up unanimous information is being blocked. we have a situation where people are working 882 days without a full-time box. and i do think that it is actually outrageous. when minnesota became a state and this is the office that prosecuted the second biggest case next to ernie made off and this is the case in the office that dealt with what would have been the additional terms for 9/11 it has handled numerous cases and has been one of the best u.s. attorney offices. and i have talked everyone about this, but it has to end. i just asked a republican colleague and my colleagues when we were in iowa and minnesota when senator grassley repeatedly criticized the office in minnesota. with crime numbers and other things that i have mentioned. that we get the u.s. attorney in minnesota and i would like to comment about that. >> i agree with you and the point he made at the end is one that is extremely relevant and hopefully the senate will consider that this is not simply an we also have a united states attorney in iowa needs to be confirmed and we also have other people in the justice department who are waiting confirmation and these are people who are not controversial at all and they are simply waiting to go through the normal senate process, which is usually by unanimous consent. and hopefully we can get through that and he is an assistant united states attorney general and it matters. and hopefully it's something that we can work our way through. >> i would like to suggest to my colleagues and no one really allows us to gone go on so long to have a job share. i will never do this again. and i really understand the reasons for it. but because our congress is not able to do simple things like approve people for the atf or approve people who have u.s. attorneys offices that clearly can't take the responsibility to do that job. because we can't handle the responsibility and then we deserve what we get is that happens. and i want to turn something over to you, sex trafficking, we have a lot of support among bipartisan support which has been a very good portion and it gets ahead of one of these things. and the super bowl is approaching this weekend, which is a concern and there is a 300% increase with things like super bowl specials, just like what the justice department is doing about this increasing problem due in part to the number of ads and what we are seeing. >> it is something that our country needs to take note of. and you see young girls and women brought into these areas for illicit sexual purposes. and at the top priority with the justice department and we need to have an effective program to see young women, the young women who are involved in this with victims and not as criminals and come up with rehabilitative services and we have a proposal that you have made with regard to getting the trafficking experts together to look at this problem and come up with ways in which we are more effective in dealing with this issue. and it's one that i fully support and there are certain publications that make it known that young women published and are available for this number of purposes and that is something that we need to deal with as well. >> something that senator schumer and senator grassley and feinstein and i have worked on with others in this round. we have had several people in the united states and i want to thank you for the proper fusion and the prosecution in duluth, minnesota. people have been laying in the street died of synthetic drugs and we are waiting that sentencing and the guy in charge, something like $700,000 and i just want to thank you for that work. >> the definitions again, we need to confront. especially among young people. and we are really devoting a lot of time to dealing with these issues and we had a number of significant things and there is an educational component that we really have to focus about the dangers of the synthetic drugs are marketed in such a way to make them think that there are no dangers. >> i believe that senator lee is next. >> thank you madam chair and senator holder for joining us today. thank you for the opportunity to work with senator dick durbin on that. and welcome to try to move forward in a way that makes our law enforcement efforts more effective and make sure that we don't continue to escalate our federal prison population for about 10 fold over the last 30 years. i wanted to talk to you about metadata. regardless of whether you think smith versus maryland and its progeny are a constitutional case that can be made for the collection of this data as it relates to american citizens. would you agree that at some point when you amass an enormous value and volume of american citizens and retain within the federal government capacity to search that data, targeting, potentially, specific americans. that gives the u.s. government a lot of power to tear into things that are by their nature very private. >> we can only do that through the traditional use of authorizations. and that is what the president is doing unless there's an emergency. and right now what you have is an internal operating procedure. >> we want to try to work out what the mechanism idea. this includes the appropriate amount of protection. >> and we have a pretty quick pace is that we are giving up on. i think that there might be willing to records in the metadata including the number of queries that were made in the database which was about 300. >> understand that you and i think for purposes of this discussion even if we were to assume that all of the men and women serving within the nsa are acting in good faith. and there's a great risk of abuse. and we have put into place some very specific restrictions. especially with senator grassley, he would like to get congress to agree with with him especially if we can't get congress to act. and he will issue an executive order anytime you get the chance. this brings to mind a concern that we have. and the supreme court has, since justice jackson's concurrence with that without the concurrence without the majority of the court. they tended to separate this out into three categories. we have a situation where congress acts and we have a congressional congregation or a congressional prohibition. so it's sort of a twilight zone were just a little unclear in murky. and a lot of times we have congressional command. so i would ask number one, if this analysis undertaken each time that the president issues an executive order. number two, when the president, for example announced on july the second 2013, that he would not be enforcing the employer mandate. including through 2014. >> before the president exercises i think it is pretty clear that the president must work with congress on behalf of the american people. in the absence of that kind of activity that was done with regard to raising the minimum wage. and so those kinds of activities are done with the the justice department and the now says is done to make sure that the president is acting in an appropriate and constitutional way. and those three categories that we are talking about that we studied in law school about justice jackson, as to where the president's authority is rated. and to which of those three categories would you put the decision to delay the employer mandate? of that category one or two or three? >> i have not seen the analysis and i'm not sure where along the spectrum that would come. >> without this. >> i assume he consulted you? >> yes, there have been complications done with the justice department. from my perspective it is category one and it regulates contract and how contracting is done. >> so you're saying there is a federal statute that have authorized them to issue the executive order? >> and it is a constitutional basis given with the responsibility is in running the executive branch. i think there is an inherent power there. >> with regard to the employer mandate? >> as i said to my have not had a chance to look at it for some time exactly what the analysis is there. and again i would think that given that we are talking about this, that it delegates the executive branch. >> ice my time has expired. but as i conclude, i would just like to point out that this is very important as my colleague suggested earlier. with legal counsel or whoever is advising the president on these issues. and this is part of protecting us against the excessive icky relation of power. i think the president owes it to the american people and you owe it to the president to make sure that when he does talk about this or executive order, that he does so clearly what the basis of authority so that the american people can be aware of what is happening and on what authority. and perhaps you can submit something, especially about the basis for making some of these decisions with regard to some of that away of the employer mandate. >> on me just say that i have great respect for the legal and analytical skills. and the president will not act in way that is inconsistent in a way that other presidents have acted in using their executive authority and we have made far less use of executive power at this point in the administration with some of the predecessors. and that is the desire of the president to work with congress. especially this is part of what we are saying. that means that he has made use of it for other presidents. and this is not precedented. and they point to the delay, the unilateral delay in the lawless delay, and my reason of the employer mandate as an example. particularly given the fact that it's difficult to imagine who is challenging this and especially in a timely enough manner to avoid a problem in this case. >> we will talk to him about the future desires and what we plan to do. >> thank you. >> thank you, madam chairman. i want to begin. i wanted to begin by respectfully taking issue with my colleagues including senator lee. to say that the use of executive orders in the past has been very sparing. in fact, in my view, the number of executive orders which have been far less than any recent president, reflect that very sparing prosecution, in my view, to cautious into scary. and i applaud the apparent determination to use his authority more aggressively and vigorously in areas that matter so much to the well-being of the american people, particularly when it comes to economic opportunities as well as to immigration and veterans issues. the basic concept is that the president is using his authority. .. i think your position that in the use of executive power will be in accordance with the law and authority clarifies it and i think what has been missing a lot of the reaction of the president's speech were some of his critics have said that he's going to be legislating or bypassing congress and in fact he is using legislation that granted him authority.

Transcripts For CSPAN Washington This Week 20140201

officers' benefits which is so important to our first responders. i appreciate the attorney general's strong support for the goals of the justice and second chance re-authorization act and forensics reform legislation. each one are going to improve the effectiveness of our criminal justice system and i'd like to see them enacted this year. i know a lot of people in law enforcement would like to see them enacted. i appreciate the attorney general's recognition of the bipartisan efforts currently under way in this committee, to address the unsustainable growth of our prison population. the rate we're going, there will be no money for law enforcement, it will be just in prisons, even to the extent of having geriatric units in these prisons. in a time of shrinking budgets, all levels of government, i think the problem we have in the expanding prison population presents devastating consequences for our other critical public safety priorities. if you do nothing and we just allow the federal prison population to consume more than a quarter of the department's budget, with eventually even more than that, that makes us less safe. incremental changes to mandatory minimums for nonviolent drug offenders is a good place to start and i'm optimistic we'll be able to pass a bipartisan bill out of this committee to do that. so, thank you, attorney general, for returning to the committee to discuss these important issues. i also want to thank the men and women of the department of justice who work hard every day to keep us safe. i met with a lot of them. you're the face of the department of justice. as you know, there are thousands of people whose faces will never be in the news but are out there every single day, throughout the country, and abroad, keeping us safe. we pray for their safety. we appreciate what they do. they deserve our gratitude and respect. senator grassley. >> before i read my statement, i'd like to say to general holder, obviously you and i were bit by different political bugs but -- and we have policy differences. maybe we got more agreement than what you and i might realize at a particular time. and i think those policy differences are legitimate and we can live with them. in my statement, i'm going to make some comments about some administrative action where i think there's no excuse for and congress isn't being respected by your department and whether it's you or people within your department, i think the very least we ought to have responses to things where there should be no political differences. just wanting information. so i hope you appreciate the fact that if we disagree on policy issues, that it doesn't carry over to things that, when congress simply wants administrative action on your part. i thank you, chairman leahy, for this hearing. it's a very important hearing. oversight's very, very important. and i thank the attorney general for coming here. you take some beating by coming here. but at least you're fulfilling a constitutional responsibility of giving us information that we need in public. i have to start by pointing out to the chairman that we still haven't received answers to our questions for the record from the last oversight hearing with the attorney general, which was almost 11 months ago. as i've indicated, i think this is unacceptable. the department should show sufficient respect for this committee to answer its questions, at least prior to the next oversight hearing. now 11 months elapsed. we also haven't received replies to questions directed to other department officials who testified at various hearings over the past year. this hearing also affords me the opportunity to call to your attention, general holder, the many letters that the department hasn't yet answered. it's unfortunate that we always have to start a department oversight hearing with the same request, to respond to unanswered questions from the congress. for instance, back in early november, i wrote you about the justice department council to health and human services on the affordable care act, h.h.s. says that in consultation with your department, it decided not to apply the antikickback statute to the affordable care act. this is a clear violation of congress' move to strengthen antifraud laws and you've helped us strengthen a lot of antifraud laws. since i haven't received an answer to my letter, i'm going to ask you about that today. i've also written to you about the department's handling of cases in which the national security agency employees abuse their signals intelligence authority. in august after news reports about these cases, i wrote to the n.s.a. inspector general about them. in response, the inspector general indicated that since 2003, there were 12 documented instances of n.s.a. employees abusing these authorities, in many cases by spying on loved ones. it's good that the number of cases was very small. but even one case too many. according to the inspector general, at least six of these cases were referred to your department for prosecution. so in october i wrote to you to request information about how the department handled these cases. i asked for a response by december 1. i haven't received one. it's important for the public to know whether the department is taking these cases seriously. we need to deter this kind of behavior in the future. given n.s.a.'s powerful capabilities. in addition, this committee has spent a considerable amount of time considering various reforms to n.s.a.. in his speech on this a few weeks ago, the president directed you as attorney general to work with the intelligence community to develop, quote, options for a new approach, end of quote, to the bulk collection of telephone metadata. i'll be interested in hearing how that is proceeding. the president has also asked you to do a review of the f.b.i. whistleblower protection and recommend changes on how to improve them. the assignment was contained in presidential policy directive 19, which claimed to create protection for whistleblowers with access to classified information. the president gave you 180 days to complete the review and it's now 10 months overdue. there's a lot of lip service to whistleblower protection, but this is another example of how the actions don't match rhetoric. i'm concerned about the president's directive. i recently had a whistle blower from the c.i.a. contact my office. he was seeking to report alleged violations of the whistleblower protections in the president's directive 19. false statements to congress and concerns related to legislation. he tried to get permission to share the classified details with me. yet a c.i.a. lawyer wrote a letter denying permission, claiming judiciary committee members aren't authorized to receive classified information from the c.i.a., which is, of course, false. but it scares whistleblowers and it intimidates them into silence. this is one of several things that suggests to me that even with the president's directive we need stronger legislative protection for national security whistleblowers. another topic to discuss is the department's nonenforcement of controlled substance act. in august the department announced that it wouldn't challenge laws in colorado and washington, legalizing trafficking of marijuana. the department apparently believes that so long as these states create effective regulatory schemes, key federal enforcement priorities wouldn't be undermined. those priorities include the diversion of marijuana into other states, increased use among minors, and more drug driving fatalities. however, i'm concerned that in many ways, this policy is based on willful ignorance of the realities in these states. example, as a result of failure to adequately regulate medical marijuana, colorado has seen a sharp increase in public health law enforcement problems related to these federal priorities in a few years. just a few weeks ago, a senior drug enforcement administration official told my and senator feinstein's caucus on the international narcotics control that what was happening in these states is, quote, reckless and irresponsible. at a minimum, it is important that the department set firm criteria to meriwether or when its federal priorities are harmed, so much that the decision not to challenge these state laws is revisited. this is all the more important now that i understand you will soon announce additional guidance that will permit marijuana distributors in these states to use the banking system to engage in what is under federal law money laundering. i'm also concerned that this administration hasn't been faithful to the constitution on a number of areas, by unilaterally changing or ignoring laws passed by congress. in my view, many of these actions are inconsistent with the constitution's requirement that the president, quote, take care that the laws be faithfully executed, end of quote. however, your department's office of legal council is involved with this because they provide an independent check on executive action. the office of league counsel is responsible for advising the executive branch on constitutional questions. moreover, it reviews the constitutionality of all proposed executive orders. last night, during the state of the union address, the president signaled that he will use executive orders aggressively to advance his agenda this year. transparency should be brought to the office of legal counsel's analysis of proposed executive orders so that the american people can see whether they are subject to a rigorous constitutional review. thank you very much. >> thank you. please go ahead, attorney general. >> chairman leahy, ranking member grassley, members of the committee, i want to thank you for the opportunity to appear before you today to discuss the recent achievements in the ongoing priorities of the united states' department of justice. i'd like to thank the members of congress for coming together earlier this month to pass a bipartisan budget agreement that restores the department's funding to pre-sequestration levels. we are reviewing this legislation to determine its impact on specific programs and components. but we anticipate it will provide for the hiring of additional federal agents, prosecutors and other essential staff. this will allow us to invest in innovative programs, to keep supporting state and local law enforcement agencies, and to continue building upon the outstanding work that my colleagues have made possible over the past year. as i've often said, the department's top priority must always be the protection of the american people from terrorism and other national security threats. since i last appeared before this committee, we have continued to strengthen key intelligence gathering capabilities, to refine our ability to identify and to disrupt potential terrorist plots. and to ensure that those charged with terrorism-related offenses can be held accountable to the full extent of the law. as president obama noted in his speech at the justice department, roughly two weeks ago in carrying out this work it's imperative that we continue striving to protect our national security while upholding the civil liberties that all of us hold dear. on monday we took a significant step forward in this regard when the department acted to allow more detailed disclosures about the number of national security orders and requests that are issued to communications providers. the number of customer accounts targeted under those orders and requests. and the underlying legal authority. through these new reports methods, communications providers will be permitted to disclose more information than ever before to their customers. allowing disclosure of this data will resolve an important area of concern to communications providers as well as to the public. and in the weeks ahead, as we move forward with the timely implementation of this and other reforms directed by the president, my colleagues and i will work closely with members of this committee and other congressional leaders to determine the best path forward. we also will continue enforcing essential privacy protections and other safeguards concerning data possessed by the government, as well as by the private sector. the department of justice takes very seriously reports of any data breach, particularly those involving personally identifiable or financial information. and looks into allegations that are brought to its attention. now, while we generally do not discuss specific matters under investigation, i can confirm that the department is investigating the breach involving the united states retailer target. and we are committed to working to find not only the perpetrators of these sorts of data breach, but also any individuals and groups who exploit that data via credit card fraud. beyond this important work, the department will continue to build on the progress that we have seen in confronting really a wide variety of other threats and challenges from combating drug and human trafficking, to addressing cyberattacks, protecting americans from violent crime, and taking really commonsense steps to reduce gun violence. earlier this month the department strengthened the federal background check system by clarifying federal rules concerning mental health-based prohibitions on firearm purchases. under the leadership of our civil rights division, we are working diligently with our federal agency partners to implement the supreme court's ruling in united states vs. windsor, to make real the promise of equal protection under the law for all american families and to extend applicable federal benefits to married same-sex couples and we are vigorously enforcing federal voting protections around working with congressional leaders from both parties to refine and to strengthen the proposals that congress is currently considering to help ensure that every eligible american has access to the franchise. in addition, last year as part of our ongoing efforts to hold accountable those whose conducts the seeds of the mortgage crisis, we filed suits against bank of america and the ratings firm, s&p. in november the department reached a $13 billion settlement with jpmorgan chase and company. this is the largest settlement with any single entity in american history to resolve federal and state civil claims related to the company's mortgage securitization process. now, i think that these results demonstrate that no firm, no matter how profitable, is above the law. and they reinforced our commitment to integrity and equal justice in every case in every circumstance and in every community. this commitment is also reflected in the new smart on crime initiative that i announced this past august, to strengthen our federal criminal justice system, to increase our emphasis on proven diversion, rehabilitation, and re-entry programs, and to reduce unnecessary collateral consequences for those who are seeking to rejoin their communities. as part of the smart on crime approach, i mandated a significant change to the justice department's charging policies to ensure that people accused of certain low-level, federal drug crimes will face sentences that are appropriate to their individual conduct. and that stringent, mandatory minimum sentences will be reserved for the most serious criminals. alongside other important reforms, this change will make our criminal justice system not only fairer, but also more efficient. and it will compliment proposals like the bipartisan smarter sentencing act, introduced by senators durbin and mike lee, which would give judges more discretion in determining appropriate sentences for people convicted of certain federal drug crimes. i look forward to working with chairman leahy, the distinguished members of this committee, and other leaders who have shown a commitment to commonsense sentencing reforms, like senator rand paul, to help advance this and other legislation. i want to thank you all once again for your continued support of the united states' department of justice and i would be happy to answer any of the questions that you might have. thank you, mr. chairman. >> thank you. and thank you for mentioning sentencing, what senator durbin and lee and paul and ryan and others, who are all working together to try to get something that not only makes sense but can pass. the old one-size-fits-all, we realize, one, it doesn't make us safer, two, it doesn't deter crime. but, three, it means we're spending a huge amount of money on things that don't make us better and takes money away from good law enforcement that we need. last week the privacy and civil liberties oversight board issued a report that concluded the n.s.a.'s phone records program should end and i agree with that. for the recommendations, you and the director of national intelligence will develop in the coming months, but executive action is not enough. i think congress has to act to ensure that this legal theory, that's what i consider legal theory, is not used by any administration to spy on its citizens. now, d.o.j.'s current interpretation of relevance in section 215 could allow the government to acquire virtually any database that might someday down the road for some reason, somehow, find useful. first, is there anything in the constitution that allows this to pass such an overbroad law? to allow us to search anywhere we want? and is there any meaningful limiting principle for the government's of section 215? >> i think that you can look at what the government has been able to do in terms of surveillance, whether it is wiretaps, mail covers. there are a number of statutes that congress has passed that allows the government to engage in that kind of surveillance activity. i think the difference between those kinds of i think universally recognized programs in what we have seen under section 215, the metadata program, is that these other materials, the other programs are really kind of predicate-based. the metadata program is really an accumulation of material without necessarily a predicate. although i will say that the query database, there has to be a predicate. i think that makes it consistent with what has been passed by congress before and constitutionally upheld by the courts. >> we can pass something and stuff has been constitutionally upheld but we can also pass -- congress could pass a law, for example, that would allow any police officer to seize anybody and lock them up for five years. we can pass such a law. you're a former judge and you're attorney general of the united states. i think you'd agree with me and everybody else that would not pass constitutional tests at all. so i ask again the question, does the constitution give us a right to pass a law to allow n.s.a. or bureau of land management or anybody else to collect such untraveled metadata on american citizens? >> i'd say 15 judges in the fisa court, two judges, one in california, one in new york, have looked at this question and made the determination that the 215 program is in fact constitutional. one judge in washington, d.c., has decided it is not. but i think that really only deals with one half of the question. i believe that they are correct, that it is constitutional. it is an appropriate use in a constitutional sense of the government's power. but the question is, and what the president has posed to us, just because we can do something, should we do it? and that's what the director and i are going to be wrestling with over the next 60 to 90 days, to modify the program in a way the president has indicated. >> another question i was going to ask, as you do that, are you going to be consulting with the privacy and civil liberties oversight board? >> yeah. we will be touching base with them. obviously they have reports that we can look at. but i think we want to make this a pretty wide-ranging interaction with those people who have been critical of section 215 and the other surveillance programs so we have as much information, both pro and con, before we make recommendations back to the president. >> there are news reports this past week that the n.s.a. and a british intelligence agency are working together to collect detailed personal information from smartphone apps. i'll have questions that i'll ask you in a classified form. what protections are in place to ensure the n.s.a. doesn't do an end run around u.s. surveillance rules, including the fourth amendment, obviously, by just going to another foreign agency and saying, hey, we're prohibited from collecting this information on americans, would you do it for news is >> well, under executive order 12333, the intelligence community is not permitted to ask a foreign government to collect information that we ourselves would not be allowed to collect. and so any attempt to have a foreign government acquire information that we are not permitted to gather ourselves would be a violation of that executive order. >> recently approved six test sites of drones. the f.a.a. is developing plans to allow drones to be operated in commercial air space by next year. we've also heard, though, in this committee that drones are already being used for a number of areas, homeland security, law enforcement purposes, that raises significant privacy concerns. i can almost feel what my reaction would be if i saw a drone flying around over my farm house in vermont. and what i'd be inclined to do, not knowing where it's coming from or what it was. what plans does the justice department have to use drones within the u.s. for law enforcement purposes? and what kind of safeguards are being developed? the orwellian aspect of them i find very chilling. >> with regard to the use of these unmanned aerial systems, at this point the only component with the department that is using them in an operational way is the f.b.i.. and i think we have to understand that if used appropriately they can serve a useful purpose. i don't think we remember the young child who was held hostage in a tunnel, i think it was in georgia or alabama someplace. use was made of a drone in that case and proved decisive in resolving that situation in a good way. the inspector general and the justice department has recommended that we come up with a uniform system of rules and regulations within the department to control how these devices are used and that is something that i support and something that we will be developing. >> that i'd like to work with you on the development. i think other members of the committee on both sides of the aisle -- because simply the fact that we have the technology, i can see it in the hands of some, boy, this is the latest and greatest thing, let's just go spy on everybody's backyard and everything else. and i think the reaction of the american public would be pretty significant. as compared to the very specific targeted law enforcement, the missing child thing that you mentioned. and lastly and i apologize to senator grassley, but we talked about it, the federal prison population. this is something of concern to many of us here. more than 500% it's grown in the last 30 years. that's money that -- you have money that can't be used to hire more prosecutors or agents or providing assistance to state and local law enforcement. in fact, the inspector general said the bureau of prison's budget is at the top of its list of management challenges for the department. the top of the list. what is this increasing prison population doing to your other priorities? >> well, the budget takes up roughly 1/3 of the justice department's entire budget. and it precludes us from doing a variety of other things that i know members of this committee are interested in. and those are interests that i share. our ability to help our state and local partners is impacted. our ability to hire more prosecutors, more agents, more support personnel is impacted. we have to fund the prison system to make sure that the people who are in those systems are safe, that we provide constitutional care to people who are incarcerated. but unless we take a fundamental look, as has been suggested by you, senator durbin, senator lee, senator paul, unless we take that fundamental look, we're going to have a prison system that impedes our ability to do the kinds of things the american people expect the justice department to do. and i'm very concerned about that and that's why i announced that smart on crime initiative back in august, and i think what i announced is consistent with what members of this committee have suggested as well. and that's why i want to work with you, to try to get a handle on what is, i think, a growing and potentially very dangerous problem. >> please do. because you have broad bipartisan support across the political spectrum to find our way out of this. and we need the advice. senator grassley. >> before my time starts, could i follow up on -- i have the same concern you do about privacy being violated by drones. but i want to point out that with airplanes in iowa and nebraska, e.p.a. has some authority to spy on certain animal feeding operations. but they were spying on people they didn't have the right to regulate with airplanes. we're going to have a bigger problem with the government abuse of privacy, with drones now. so i just raise that as an issue. not for you to comment on or not for you to comment on. general, in my opening statement, a couple of questions on something i've already discussed with you. i mentioned that i wrote you back in october, concerning the department's handling of cases referred to in which the national security agency employees intentionally or willfully abused surveillance authority. but i never received a response. we need to know whether the justice department is taking any action or even whether you consider the cases serious. can you tell me whether anyone at the n.s.a. has been prosecuted for this conduct? and if they haven't, why maybe they haven't been prosecuted. >> i think the concern that you raise is a very legitimate one. and we will get a response to you in greater detail. but the fact that -- and there were those referrals. but the fact that members of the n.s.a. who have access to this information, access to these techniques, these capabilities would misuse them for -- and i think you're right, as you said in your statement, for essentially personal use, to spy on people with whom they had relationships, is totally inappropriate. we will get you a fulsome response to indicate how those cases were dealt with by the justice department. i share the concern. >> is it possible you could do that soon? >> yes. we will do that soon. i will write that one down and make sure we get back to you on that. >> i referred to a presidential policy director 19, released 15 months ago. this follows up on my interest of making sure whistleblowers have protection. it mandates that you deliver a report to the president within 180 days. that would be april of last year. to assess the effectiveness of f.b.i.'s procedure of handling whistleblowers. why i raise this issue, because we've had whistleblowers' rights violated like robert kolbus, jane turner, getting a run-around for years. even after the inspector general has found in their favor. however, to date there's been no public announcement that your review has been completed. why you have not issued the report nearly 10 months after deadline? what you have learned from your review? will you provide a copy to the committee of the review? >> ill i'll have to check on the status of that review. i'm not sure what shape it is in and whether it is ready for dissemination. but i will look at. that again, i share the concerns you have about whistleblowers. i think people who have concerns about the way in which government is conducting itself have to have the feeling that they have places that they can go. and report these things in a way that does not do damage to the government itself. and so if there is not that feeling that they have mechanisms, established means to share those concerns, we then end up with people sharing things and i think in an inappropriate way, perhaps with newspapers, owe other media. so the concern you have is a very legitimate one and this is another one where i will have to get back to you and let you know where we stand. >> when you mentioned the concerns of the government, i appreciate that. because government's got certain responsibilities. but when you got one individual against the government, it seems to me it's pretty easy to see how that one individual's going to be run over if we don't see that they get their constitutional rights protected. i had a question on drones but i think you've answered that. i'll go to the office of legal counsel's review of executive orders that i spoke about. i mentioned my concern that the president's been using executive orders to circumvent the will of congress and the american people. i'm sure he doesn't feel that way. you probably feel he hasn't either. but i'll tell you, it's a big concern for people that come to my town meetings. it appears that he may continue to do this. he said so last night. in the interest of transparency and with transparency account comes accountability, would you disclose to the public the legal counsel's analysis of all proposed executive orders so that the american people can see whether they are subjected to rigorous constitutional review? it seems to me that would be one of your responsibilities. it seems to me you would want the president to only do those things that are legal and constitutional. and if you wouldn't make these public, would you tell me why? >> first, let me say that with regard to the use of executive authorities, what the president has talked about was a desire in the first instance to work with congress, to try to pass legislation, but in the absence of that, to use the power that he has as president in the way that he described. what he has described is consistent with what other presidents have done over the years. i think if one looks at a various number of studies that i have seen, this president has used far fewer executive orders than his predecessors. >> i'm not questioning whether or not he can do it. i might have some question about the legality and constitutionality of it. and if he's got the constitutional authority, if he's got the legal authority, we can't do it. we're just trying to determine whether or not he's exceeded that authority. and your people making that determination, is there anything wrong with the public saying what the basis of it is? >> i think we can certainly look at the requests that are made. we'll have to see exactly how the president proposes to use these executive authorities and to the extent that we can share the o.l.c. determinations or whoever in the justice department is looking at and making these determinations. i would be inclined to try to share that with congress in an appropriate way. >> will you at least, if you can't share it with me, will you tell me why you can't share it we me? because i just don't want a big black hole here. >> the concern we generally have with regard to the dissemination of o.l.c. opinions is that we want to have full conversations, fulsome discussions about these matters where o.l.c. lawyers write both pros and cons about a particular issue -- >> we're probably only interested in the outcome, not the debate within your agency. just what's the outcome. >> yeah, well, the memos will contain all of the arguments with a conclusory couple of pages or whatever. we'll try to find ways in which we can share this information with you so that you and other members distribute american people feel that the president is acting in an appropriate way. to the extent that he makes use of this authority at all. as i said, his primary inclination and desire is to work with congress to pass necessary legislation that i think all the american people want to see happen. >> i think the chairman would give me a couple of minutes because he took 2 1/2 minutes. [laughter] >> i'm not sure about that. [laughter] >> the last question or maybe a half a question after this one would be this simple. this is a discussion i had with the secretary of health and human services in another committee. they announced that it does not consider affordable care act plans to be, quote, federal health care programs, unquote. that exempts them from the antikickback laws and undermines the clear intent of congress and the health reform law to make kickbacks a violation of the false claims act. so you got my interest in the false claims act as well. secretary sebelius said that she maid this decision after consulting with your department. i asked secretary sebelius why these plans are any different than medicare advantage. she claimed advantage plans are different because payments are made directly from the medicare trust fund. so, i wrote to you about this last november. i'd like to know when i might be able to expect a response. but more importantly, whether you agree with secretary sebelius that the affordable care act plans should be exempt from the antikickback laws. it doesn't seem to me like you'd want to exempt anything from antikickback laws. and what's the department's advice to the h.h.s. documented in writing? if it was, i'd like to have a copy of that. >> that's something i'll have to examine and see what we have there. but i will say that we have been very aggressive in enforcing the antikickback laws and recovered record amounts of money over the last few years. i'd have to look at the particulars with regard to the affordable care act. >> i can understand that. >> see the applicability of those provisions. >> but presumably this is action, according to the secretary, that your department's already taken. there should be some sheet of paper around there that you can give to us. the half question i was going to ask you, you have one more day to decide whether or not the boston bomber's going to be subject to the death penalty. what's your decision? >> we'll be announcing that by the deadline. >> thank you. the amount of money the department of justice has collected finds an anti-kickback audit, i believe it's a record, i congratulate you on that. >> it was the grassley amendment that brought us into this world in terms of bringing members of congress and their staff into the affordable care act which we are now under and if it was not complete when it came to anti-kickback and such, we want to make sure that it is. >> i didn't know -- they tnt know that why did you have to tell them? >> i think every staff member in the congress who are now paying more for their health care know it is the grassley amendment that did it. >> mr. chairman, if i can address two questions related to the wheels of justice. each year when you appear, mr. attorney general, i ask you the same question and you give me the same answer, about racial profiling guidelines, and you say really soon we're going to work on this. this year, i would like to ask you, how quickly an we expect new racial profiling guidelines when it relates to issues of religion, national origin and whether it applies to national security and border security cases? >> i don't want to repeat the words really soon given what you said so i will say that they are forthcoming and that -- in the holder lexicon, forthcoming is shorter than really soon. we are working with those -- there has been a review under way. we are, and i mean this sincerely, we are truly in the final stages of this, the proposal is just being circulated for comment within the department and my hope would be that it would be out the department very soon. obviously there's some white house involvement because we're talking about a 2003 executive order but i would hope that we would have an ability to talk about the modifications that i think are appropriate in a forthcoming way. >> thank you. wheels of justice question number two. 155 detainees remain at guantanamo. i want to say for the record, this has been the subject of a lengthy debate here in congress. the president made his intentions clear when elected to close guantanamo, and yet resistance in congress has thwarted him from accomplishing that. for those who want an establishment of the record, over 500 people have been convicted of terrorism and terrorism-related crimes through our judicial process since 9/11. in federal courts. in contrast, there have been six convictions and one plea agreement from guantanamo's military commissions, two of those convictions have been overturned. the most dangerous terrorists who have been convicted through our judicial system reside in our prison system and the worst of the worst in maximum security. we spend, on average, $78,000 a year in facilities like florence, colorado, maximum security, to hold the most dangerous criminals in america, including the most dangerous terrorists and there has never, ever, ever been a -- an escape or a question that they would escape. we are spending, for the 155 detainees in guantanamo, on average, not $78,000 per year by $2.7 million a year, per detainee. it is an outrageous waste of taxpayers' dollars. we are going to start a process to start reviewing the 155 detainees in the hopes that we could dispose of some, dismiss some, transfer some, it took a long time to get started. the wheels of justice unfortunately went very slowly. the president issued an executive order in march of 2011. the first periodic review board hearing at guantanamo took place in november of last year. and earlier this month, the board recommended the transfer of the first detainee in question. the second periodic review board hearing occurred yesterday. i'm glad to hear this progress has been made but with 155 detainees, 71 of whom are eligible for evaluation, mr. attorney general, we can't live long enough to go through this process. at $2.7 million a year per guantanamo detainee, can we get this process moving in an orderly, faster way? >> i think we can. the president has indicated from the day he took office that he wanted to close guantanamo facility he put me in charge of an niche review that was done within a year. that categorized the people in guantanamo, those who could be tried in military commissions or article 3 courts, those who could be released and those who had to be detained. we did that. we did that. i will say with all due respect, congressional restrictions placed on us thwarted our attempts to close guantanamo in a more timely fashion. you're right. we are now in the process of going through this review board process that is largely based on the work we did in that earlier task force that i was the head of. we are trying to do all we can to close guantanamo and i am actually grateful for the loosening of the restrictions in the latest act that makes it easier for us to effectuate that closure -- closure. but this is commg that for the -- this is something that for many reasons, that facility has to be closed. >> the sooner the better, from my point of view. i wish more members of congress felt the same way. you were in chicago in november of last year. at the installation of the u.s. attorney for the northern district, zach fardon, a unanimous choice of senator kirk, myself, and our bipartisan review panel and you made some encouraging statements about commitments that were going to be made to chicago to deal with the violent crime problem and murder issue, giving credit where it's due, mayor emanuel and his superintendent of police, mr. mccarthy, have made extraordinary progress in this regard but we need this help. can you be more specific in terms of the resources and personnel that you will make available to help us fight these problems with violent crime? >> we're looking to come up with ways to increase the number of federal agents who are in chicago on either a temporary basis or permanent basis, also looking for grants we can make available to the city. i am going to be speaking to mayor emanuel tomorrow. the purpose of the conversation, at least one of the things we'll be talking about, are the specific needs he can identify that we might be able to help with. i will also be talking to the u.s. attorney there to get his perspective on this as well. i think that we want to do as much as we can but i don't think that that should obscure the fact that the city administration, working with the new u.s. attorney, i think has made significant progress. i don't think necessarily get all the credit they deserve for a pretty dramatic decrease in crime in chicago. but there is federal assistance we want to try to make available. >> my time is up but i hope with the new appropriation bill you'll be able to find some u.s. district attorneys to help with that effort. thank you. >> welcome, mr. attorney general. appreciate your service. i'm going to try to ask a series of questions, i'll try to cauch them so you can answer yes or no so we can get through a lot of stuff, so if you could do that i'd appreciate it. i'd like to talk about the department's refusal to enforce the controlled substance act. marijuana is widely available across the utah border in colorado. federal, state, and local law enforcement have seen success in going after marijuana growers on public lands in utah. there's a direct link between the u.s. marijuana trade and large scale drug trafficking organizations that threaten the safety and well being of our country. legalization in colorado threatens the success that we have been seeing in tackling the problem. controls on legal marijuana are unlikely to deter drug cartels from ramping up their operations on public lands in utah and elsewhere. especially since the -- since demand in colorado is wildly exceeding supply. i think this policy shift sends a mixed and dangerous message to both the law enforcement community and fellow citizens. do you share my concern that legalization in one state can encourage more illegal marijuana production on public lands by drug cartels and others in bordering states? >> i'll be brief, i have concerns and those are expressed in the eight priorities we set out, three of them preventing diversions from states where it's legal to other states, preventing the growing of marijuana on public lands and preventing use on federal property. these are three of the eight things that would precipitate federal government action and enforcement of the c.s.a. >> now general holder, the debate about n.s.a. surveillance is in full swing. the illegal and selective leaks last summer were hardly the best way to start this debate and i think they undermine rather than enhance but here we are. a lot of attention is being focused on the n.s.a.'s collection and analysis of so-called telephone metadata as you mentioned. it's worth reminding ourselves what that information is and what it is not. it includes the telephone number calling, the number being called, and the date, time, and length of the call, is that correct? >> that's correct. >> it does not include any information about the identity of the caller or the content of the call, is that correct? >> that's correct. >> the privacy and civil liberties oversight board issued its report last week. excuse me. concluding that the patriot act does not provide legal authority for the n.s.a.'s metadata program. in an interview last week, you noted that at least 15 judges on dozens of occasions have said that the program itself is legal. that's correct? >> that's correct. >> to be clear, is it your position that the collection of metadata under section 215 of the patriot act is legal and that the oversight board's conclusion on this point is wrong? >> that is my view. >> that's mine too. as someone on the intelligence committee and who helped put this through. in your judgment has the n.s.a. abused or misused its capability to collect and analyze telephone metadata? >> i think the n.s.a. has acted in a way that's consistent with the law but as i indicated i think that's part one of the analysis, part two is whether or not we are getting from the acquisition and retention of that data material that is sufficient to deal with the civil liberties and privacy concerns others have expressed. >> but they haven't misused or abused it? >> that's what the president asked us to look at. >> one more question about the eversight board's conclusion about the legality of the program. in creating the board, congress authorized it to do two things. first, to ensure that the need for executive branch actions and protecting us from terrorism is balanced with the need to protect privacy, that's true? >> yes. >> second. to ensure that liberty concerns are considered in the development of laws and policies in this area, that's true? >> i believe that's true also. >> these responsibilities certainly call for recommendations and conclusions about policy but i dent see how they include opining on legal issues such as the legality of the metadata program. did the oversight board exceed its statutory mission in addressing this issue? >> i'll be honest with you, i'm not as familiar as perhaps you are as to what their statutory mission is. i will accept as legitimate the concerns that they expressed though i do not agree with their legal determination, their legal analysis. >> i think they exceeded the statutory mission but so be it. so year clear on what, in my opinion, on the very limited information that the n.s.a. collects and analyzes, we are clear that the metadata program is legal, and that the n.s.a. has not abused or misused its authority to collect and analyze this information, as far as you know. >> there have been some compliance issues that have been identified by the courts or by the justice department, sometimes by the n.s.a. but those have all been corrected, once brought to the attention of the n.s.a. >> is my next question is how to know whether the program is valuable. the president's -- the report said that the metadata program was not esen torble preventing a specific terrorist attack. is that the right standard? must there be proof that this program alone prevented an actual attack in order for it to be valuable for national security and for it to continue? >> i'm not sure -- i think we've followed into a false analysis. i'm not sure that the the only way to judge the validity or value of the program. there's a mosaic of things that we take into consideration in determining if we are acting in an optimal way. there are questions enge that can be legitimately be brought and that we are going to consider about the continued need for section 215 but i don't think the only way you can test the validity or the need for 215 is whether or not it prevented x number of attacks. >> on march 5, 2012, in a speech -- the chairman is granting me a little more time so i can fin herb this line of question. >> without objection, the gentleman will be given two more minutes. >> i'm grateful to him. in the -- you discussed surveillance programs under the foreign intelligence surveillance act. the justice department conducts oversight reviews at least once every 60 days and report to congress twice a year. i understand the surveillance program under patriot act and under fisa are different but would you say the metadata program enjoys similarly rigorous oversight to that which you described for collection under section 702? >> i think there is sufficient oversight of section 215 between what the justice department lawyers are looking at as we are looking at materials presented to us by fisa, by the fisa court and then what n.s.a. is doing internally. i think there's a great deal of oversight and that oversight has yielded issues that have been identified as problematic and been resolved. >> that's right. >> one of the president's proposals is for telephone companies rather than the n.s.a. to store the metadata. it's been represented that telephone companies don't support this idea but suppose they do. today only 22 individuals at the n.s.a. have access to this metadata. 22 people. but there are dozens of phone companies, each of which would have to maintain these records. that would have some number of employees with access. how can you provide a comparable level of supervision when this data is stored in numerous different locations and is accessible by far more individuals than it is today? >> one of the things the president asked the director and i to do is come up with an alternative way in which information can be stored and the issue you have raised is one that has to be resolved. i think that the n.s.a. has done a good job in the way it has stored the information. if we're to move to a deferent scheme i think we have to answer the question of how can we put it in a different place and maintain the integrity that -- of the process that i think the n.s.a. has tone a pretty good job of. >> i agree with that and i have additional concerns about the security of the metadata at the phone canes. verizon's own data breach investigation reports privileged abuse and misuse by insiders played a role in data breaches over the last year. a company can only do so much to protect against outside threats to its networks, look at target and neiman marcus. do you believe the metadata would be more secure in the hands of the private sector than the n.s.a.? >> i think we have to find out if we can do it, if we can maintain security, do it in a different setting than we presently do at the n.s.a. that's one of the tasks the president has give to me and the director. >> but they're doing the job at n.s.a. >> i think they've done a good job. >> thank you, mr. chairman, i appreciate the extra time. >> thank you, senator hatch. now i yield myself seven minutes. plus whatever else i might need. it is very good to be here. i want to thank the attorney general for the good work he does. i know he is aided with great, great skill by two former schumer employees who work for you, elliot williams who has been gone for a while and brian fallon who we miss very much and is doing a good job for you. >> thank you, senator schumer. >> first on autism spectrum disorders. i know you're familiar with the case of avanti o'kendall. he's a child with autism spectrum disorder he wandered away from his school this fall, about 50% of children with this condition wander, and his remains were found three months later. the heart of new york went out to him and his mother and grandmother. i've met with them and know their grief and heartache, shared by many parents with autism, you can imagine, when a child wanders away and many of them are nonverbal, very, very heart wrenching situation and a dangerous situation as unfortunately asv -- avanti's death showed. right after avanti went missing, showed. right after avanti went missing, i called on the department of justice to expand a current grant program you have in place which has provided support for the use of tracking devices to agencies who work with patients diagnosed with alzheimer's and families of those patients. the program's administered by the bureau of justice assistance. now we've been doing this for alzheimer's patients. justice department funds the program. so it seems almost obvious, you know, like a hand fits into a glove, that we could do this and people with alzheimer's as you know, wander as well. it seems like just a perfect fit to do the same thing for children with autism who tend to wander. now i understand that the program that's used for alzheimer's is not available for families of children with autism. so have you been able to identify any other streams of assistance pursuant to my request? >> well, i think the concern that you have is a very good one a legitimate one and the fact that you brought it to our attention is something that is going to help a lot of kids who deal with this issue and we have made the determination that the burn grant program can be used for the purchase of these devices, these transmitted bracelets, i think they're called. >> sometimes bracelets, sometimes around the ankle, even in the clothes because occasionally kids with autism want to take off the bracelet. >> but the grant money can be made and will be made available for purchase of these devices. >> localities and police departments can start applying immediately? >> yes. >> that is great news and will help in a lot of situations. i appreciate that. it's a big, huge step forward. now one other question on this. in order to ensure ha a permanent adequate stream of money for this, i've introduced legislation, we call it new york avanti's law, named after this lovely boy. it will create a new, specific, d.o.j. grant that will be available to local law enforcementing schools and nonprofits that aim to assist children with autism spectrum disorder and will authorize $10 million, i think that's what we spend on the alzheimer's, to help fund the purchase of voluntary tracking device, training for parents, schools and local law enforcement as well as other innovative methods. what you're doing is great and will solve the problem immediately but to ensure its -- it's permanent. we all know at some point there will be a different attorney general, many years away, and so legislation would ensure this. i know the way it all works. you can't commit to specific legislation until it -- until you see the details but do you agree with the general principle of trying to enact this in statute and ensure the revenue for years to come? >> yes. given the unique nature of issues that kids with autism issues face and given the way in which our nation has responded to adults with alzheimer's issues that they ought to be treated in much the same way and so i can't commit but i can say that personally i think that a dedicated funding stream makes a great deal of sense. >> thanks. we'll get you the legislation and you can put it through the long, la boirs you executive branch traps, it probably has to go through 47 different agencies, but get the support for this legislation which we hope will be forthcoming. now i'd like to turn to media shield. i appreciate the support for freedom of information. additionally the revised guidelines of obtaining evidence for members of the news media are a step in the right direction. however, they haven't been finalized and it's more than six months after the department sent its report to the president. when will the revise guidelines be finalized and when will they go into effect? >> i would expect we would have them available for comment within the next couple of weeks. i hoped that we would have them done by this hearing. there was a little glitch toward the end but i think we'll get through that and we'll have them available for public review and comment within weeks. i will say that in spite of the fact that they are not yet issued, we are working under them as if they were in place and we are also looking to people the board that we are putting together as part of the review process. mr. fallon has been working on that. >> then it's in good hands. does that include, you know, you mention this media review committee. has that been established? has it been convened? is it officially working? unofficially working? give us the status of the review committee and the media -- the news media dialogue group, i think is what you called it, to, quote, assess the impact of the department's revised new media policies. has that been established? >> there will be two bodies, one within the department oassist the attorney general about making requests to access information about the news media and another one that would involve outciders who will assist us on a periodic basis to give us an update on how are we going with regard to the reforms we have put in place and to consider other unwiths. mr. fallon has been working to come up with the appropriate people for that outside board and i think we've mad a -- made a lot of progress. >> how soon do you think? i don't want to steel mr. fallon's news thunder here. >> we expect the first meet welcome in february. >> thank you very much mr. joan. -- mr. general. and i will do two things now. call on senator sessions and turn over the august process, engage in the august process of turning over the chair's gavel to the wonderful senior senator from minnesota, senator klobuchar. >> and you finished within your time. very well. attorney general holder, you mentioned gun violence and crime. i would just note, i watch your statistics that your prosecutions, total prosecutions of gun crimes declined 5.2% this year from last year and i think prosecution, vigorous prosecutions do make a difference and i would encourage you to keep those numbers up and as you go forward. a lot of our members are discussing how to deal with the mandatory sentences. i would just say, i was there when we had the revolving doors in the 1960's and 1970's and we as a nation turned against that. we've created a system that requires certainty in punishment, swifter trials and the result is a very great drop in the crime rate. so to my colleagues, we just have to be careful as we go forward. i know you've been a united states attorney, attorney general holder and you've seen it as a judge, a u.s. attorney, and i think we just have to be careful. we need to have good data as we go forward to analyze how we can find some areas where crime and punishments could be reduced and i do agree with you about the n.s.a. and the metadata question, i think you've thought this through, i believe the -- your position is sound. attorney general holder, when i became a united states attorney in 1981, the percentage of young people in high school, high school seniors, according to the university of michigan, authoritative national survey, was 50% plus had admitted using an illegal drug previously. in the previous year. that was a dramatic thing. and the nation energized itself. nancy reagan had the just say no program. in my district, this was done all over america, groups formed, the partnership for youth, the coalition for a drug free mobil, e, we met, i was involved with it and we created and worked to create in the country hostility to drug use. to create the impression that it's not socially acceptable and children shouldn't be using it and it's wrong and the trend started the other way. by the time -- within 10 years, less than 25% of the high school seniors under that study admitted using illegal drugs. i invested a tremendous amount of my time, citizens all over america invested huge amounts of their time, volunteer efforts, financial contributions, to break the cycle of drug use among young people that were threatening the very viability of our education system and the future of so many. it was just a very serious thing. so i have to tell you, i'm heart broke ton see what the president said just a few days ago. it's just stunning to me. i find it beyond comprehension. this is the atlanta -- this is "the atlantic" article surveying what the new yorker, the president's interview with the new yorker said. the headline is, obama on pot legalization -- it's important for it to go forward. that's the president's quote. he goes on to quote from that interview, he said the following things about smoking marijuana. quote, i view it as a bad habit and vice, not very different from the cigarettes i smoked as a young person. i don't think it's more dangerous than alcohol, he said. in fact it's less dangerous than alcohol, quote, in terms of its impact on the individual consumer. and he goes on to say, well, those who argue for legalizing marijuana as a panacea, and it solves all these social problems, i think are probably overstating the case. this is just difficult to me to concede how the -- to conceive how the president of the united states could make such a statement as that. so first, do you support the president's view in that regard as the chief law enforcement officer in america? >> well, a couple of misimpressions. we are prosecuting the same number of people we did from 2007 to 2013, there may be fewer cases but that means the cases we bring are more significant. one seventh of all the cases we bring involve guns. >> i have the data on that, i'll submit it for the record, people can decide the number of gun cases are down according to data from the department of justice. but what about the president's view on this important subject? do you agree with it? >> i've not read the article but as i understood what the president said in its totality was that he thought that the use of marijuana by young people was not a good thing, one of our eight priorities is the prevention of distribution of marijuana to minors, if there is indication of marijuana being distributed to minors that would require federal involvement. that was in the memo to the field. >> you think it's a bad habit but not much worse than smoking? >> well, i mean -- >> in your opinion. give us your opinion. >> i think that the use of any drug is potentially harmful and included in that would be alcohol. >> the president said i don't think it's more dangerous than alcohol. close quote. do you agree with that? >> as i said i think any drug used in an inappropriate way can be harmful. alcohol is among those drugs. >> using marijuana against the law is that appropriate use? >> well, as i said for young people to do that is something that violates federal law and something that we said would be something that we would continue to use our federal law -- >> are you aware that the drug czar the president appointed has said this in december, young people are getting the wrong message from the medical marijuana legalization campaign. if it continues to be talked about as a benign substance that has no ill effects, we're doing great disservice to young people by giving them that message. close quote. do you agree with that? >> i think that's right. that's why we have said that the distribution of marijuana to minors will involve -- will entail the very vigorous federal response. >> are you aware, isn't it a fact, that if the laws are relaxed with regard to adults, it makes this drug even more available to minors? >> i'm not sure that's necessarily true. >> attorney general holder, isn't it true that if marijuana is legalized for adults, it makes it more available for young people? >> i'm not sure that's true. i say that only because the -- the alcohol -- people cannot buy alcohol until you're age 18 or 1 21 but young people find ways to get alcohol because adults can have access to it. i'm not sure that we will see the same thing here given what we have said with regard to our enforcement priorities. >> did the president make -- conduct any medical or scientific survey before he waltzed into "the new yorker" and opined contrary to the position of attorneys general and presidents universally prior to that? that marijuana is not is not harmful, did he study any data before he made that statement? >> i don't know. >> did he consult with you before he made that statement? >> we didn't talk about that. >> what about this study from the american medical association, october 2013, heavy cannabis use in adolescents causes persistent impairment in neurocognitive performance and i.q. and use is associated with increased rates of anxiety, mood, and other disorders or this report from last december, the study found that marijuana use verse abnormal brain structure and poor memory and that chronic marijuana use may lead to brain changes resembling schizophrenia. the study also reported that the younger the person starts using marijuana, the worse the effects become. would you dispute that -- those reports? >> i have not read the report bus if they are from the a.m.a. i'm sure they are good report bus that is exactly why one of our eight enforcement priorities is the prevention of marijuana to minors. >> lady gaga said she's addicted to it and it is not harmless. she's been addicted to it. patrick kennedy, former congressman kennedy said the president is wrong on this subject. i just think it's a huge issue. i hope that you will talk with the president, you're close to him, and begin to push back, pull back from this position that i think is going to be adverse to the health of america. thank you, madam chair. >> thank you, senator. senator whitehouse. >> thank you. welcome back to congress, attorney general. thank you for the terrorism work work that you are doing as our attorney general. as a former u.s. attorney and friend of the department, i not only have my own opinion but i have other folks who are observers of the department and i think we're very appreciative of the fine leadership you're providing the department of justice. let me talk with you for a moment about cyber. our effort to address the cyberthreat in the -- on the military side have been quite distinct and have led to the establishment of a cybercommand with two four-star generals -- with two four star generals in charge, one double headed to lead n.s.a. on the law enforcement side, our advancement has been, to put it mildly, incremental. the responsibility for cyberthreats within the department of justice themselves is divided between the dwegs and division and the national security division and the enforcement responsibility is divided between the f.b.i. and secret service though the f.b.i. has a dominant role and by the way, does a terrific job. in the spending bill that was just passed thanks to chairman mikulski's exemplary legislative talents, there is a provision that requires the department of justice within 120 days to put forward a multiyear strategic plan for this. you know i have had this discussion with the department of justice and the department of justice has said we can't talk about this because o.m.b. is not in the room and they will whip us unmercifully if we talk about budget stuff without their presence because it will look like we're submarining the prerogatives of the white house over budget issues so we brought o.m.b. in. and those discussions have gone forward at a moderate pace. i just wanted to flag for you this legal requirement that it be done within 120 days because i'm expecting that there will be a report within 120 days and i'm hoping that you and o.m.b. will both put considerable effort into it because if you look out four or five years at the rapid rate in which the cyberthreat is growing, in which it is morphing into more complex and varied threats, and at all the ways in which it can affect the lives of ordinary americans, i think that we are both underresourced and inadequately structured to deal with that program, that problem in the long haul. so what assurances can you give me about how you guys are going to handle this responsibility for a multiyear strategic plan on cyberwithin 120 days? >> i don't want to be alarmist, but i think the concerns that you have expressed over the years is well founded. this nation needs to be afraid. where we could be after a cyberattack. when you see the proliferation of cybercapabilities to criminal organizations, to nation -- to nation states. our nation is at risk. our infrastructure is at risk. we as a nation have not, i think, adequately responded to it. i think the 120-day examination that we have to do to come up with this multiyear plan is indeed a good thing and we'll take it very seriously and respond within that time frame, bringing into it o.m.b. and i think bringing members of congress who have expressed an interest, you, for instance, into this process as well, at least to be a part, so we have your views in formulating what this plan is like. but we as a nation have nod dedicated the attention, the resources to a problem that is 21st century in its conception -- inception and will be with us for, i suspect, throughout the duration of the century and is only going to get worse. the danger to us is only going to be heightened. >> i spoke to the f.b.i. cyberdivision i guess yesterday morning and used the example of the united states air force, which before the opportunity and threat of air warfare was fully appreciated began as a subcomponent of the army cigna corps and then obviously it had to grow and then it became the army air corps and finally we got a u.s. air force. i think a similar process needs to be planned for on this. the other issue i wanted to raise with you is this -- many of us have been shocked by the discrepancy between the filings that political organizations have made at the internal revenue service, promising under oath they weren't going to spend any money on political activities, and at the same time filing declarations under oath at the federal election commission that they have spent tens of millions of dollars in political activities. i suspect that those discrepancies reflect false statements that could be prosecuted under 18 u.s.c. section 1001. there have been no cases from the department in that respect because the i.r.s. hasn't referred anything. i think the i.r.s. is frightened of the power behind the big political machines so they have chickened out and pitched it in. but now they decided to take a look at those rules. i would ask you to assign somebody on your staff to track the i.r.s. process, make sure that you are comfortable with where those rules are coming out and make sure that if there are open and notorious conflicts between foreign statements -- between sworn statements from these organizations it leaves room for the department of justice to step in and get before a grand jury and find out if they are the prosecutable false statements they appear to be oner that face. >> i think that is something worthy of examination. i think the problem exists in that under the tax reform act, this is information called tax return information that is always guarded very zealously. there's a memoranda of understanding -- >> you don't get to look at it unless they refer to you. but when an open and notorious ax appears tbhping, i don't think there's anything that says act appears tos be happening, i don't think there's anything that says you can't say, what is going on here, they say -- these statements can not both be true. we'd like to look into it. >> i think those refer referrals only come in extraordinary circumstances and it's a question of the fining what extraordinary means. i think that an examination of this issue makes a great deal of sense. this is not an ideological issue. this is one that groups on the left, on the right, i think should be held to the full letter of the law. >> the crime of lying to a federal official has no partisan component to it and i'd appreciate you looking at it from that point of view. i've gone over my time and i yield back. >> very good. senator cornyn. >> thank you, madam chairman. good morning. good morning, general holder. i want to introduce you to a constituent of mine and senator cruz, katherine engelbrecht in houston, texas. she founded two organizations to improve elections. she leads a coalition of citizen volunteers who work as election monitors, who provide resources for voter registration drives and are dedicated to rooting out election fraud. yet the federal government has targeted katherine and her organizations with harassment and discrimination. in spring of 2010, true the vote and king street patriots both filed for nonprofit status. like so many organizations, they just wanted to participate in the political process. when the i.r.s. failed to respond in january, 2011, i wrote a letter inquiring about the status of true the vote's application. a few weeks later, the now notorious cincinnati office of the i.r.s. began a series of gratuitous and invasive inquiry into mrs. engelbrecht's organizations. this investigation but so over the top that the federal government demanded, among other things, every facebook post and every tweet that she'd ever posted. for more than three years the i.r.s. denied true the vote and king street patriots the nonprofit status they requested and subjected both of them to this kind of harassment. this kind of abuse of power was not limited to the i.r.s., however. according to c.b.s. news within two months, or within months of true the vote's filing, two arms of the justice department targeted her. the f.b.i. made calls to king street patriots and attended some of its meetings. and the a.t.f. has twice audited her business. coincidence? maybe. but where there's smoke there's fire. the i.r.s. finally, three years after they applied, granted true the vote's tax exempt status it requested. but we now know that true the vote was just one of the conservative organizations targeted were discrimination, harassment and intimidation by the federal government, the i.r.s. in particular. i.r.s. officials at the highest levels targeted the leaders of conservative organizations based solely on their political beliefs. in this case, the intimidation tactics were shocking. threatening to bankrupt an american family and the business they built simply because they dared criticize the federal government. this is chilling. and it should be unacceptable in the united states of america. the president, his credit, agrees that this is a terrible abuse. he called the i.r.s. scandal intolerable and inexcusable and called for those guilty of this misconduct to be held accountable. but when your department was asked to step in and investigate, no one has been held accountable for this abuse. in fact, your department installed a political donor of the president's to lead the investigation. according to -- appointing a political donor to investigate a political activity is, i think, calls the entire investigation into question and i can't imagine how this would be designed to instill public confidence in the investigation. now f.b.i. director -- the f.b.i. director said this investigation was an important one for his agency. now it's been peculiarly reported that the department will not pursue criminal charges against any i.r.s. official even though the f.b.i.'s investigation has not yet been concluded. and shockingly, the department made this decision, if it's true, and you can certainly confirm it or refute it if it's not, they made the decision without even talking to katherine englebrecht. i talked to her yesterday, she verified she has not heard a word from the department of justice or the f.b.i. so i would like to know, general holder, what you have to say to her and to other americans who spent thousands of dollars defending themselves against harassment by the internal revenue service for daring to exercise their constitutional right to participate in the political process. and i'd like to ask you whether you will agree to make sure that your department consults personally with every victim of this type of intimidation by the federal government. and if you can tell us what kind of accountability can the american people expect from this abuse of power. >> well, what i would say first off, i don't remember the exact words that i used but shortly after the president made the statements that you made, i expressed similar concerns and i actually, i was the one who ordered the investigation into this these matters. they are being handled by the criminal division in the justice department, the civil rights division in the justice department, the treasury inspector general and the f.b.i. as you indicated. this is a matter that's an open inquiry, it's still going on. press reports, i think if you're referring to with regard to how the case is ultimately going to be decided is a press report. the reporters who have made those assertions are not people privy to what is actually going on in the investigation. it is something, as i said, that is open. the investigation is proceeding. >> is there still potential for criminal charges to be brought in connection with the investigation since it's -- since it has not been concluded? >> obviously all the options we have oare on the table given the fact that there has not been a determination to bring charges or decline the case. >> don't you think it's the response thovelt department to actually contact the people with the most information about what exactly happened like this victim of this abuse of power, like katherine? >> i'm not familiar the woman who you referred to but i have confidence in the career people at the f.b.i. and the other investigative agencies to conduct a thorough, comprehensive investigation and that's what i would expect of them. that's why matters like this take as long as they do. >> would you please in conclusion, i know my time sup, would you commit here to me, publicly, to contact katherine and get her side of the story? or have somebody on your staff do so? >> the determination as to who gets interviewed will be made by the career people conducting the investigation. i don't want to cast any doubt on what you said, she seems leek a logical basis of -- she seems like a logical person to talk to on the bay sofse what you said, i don't have any knowledge of what her involvement is but that's something i leave to the people who are, as i said, career professionals to make determinations as to who needs to be interviewed. >> i hope the department would talk to the victim. >> thank you, senator car ornyn. i'm turning the gavel over. i also want to express again to the attorney general my appreciation not only for being here but being available to so many of us on this committee on both sides of the aisle whenever we've called you. i appreciate that that has not always been the precedent in the department so i appreciate the fact that you've always been available. >> thank you, mr. chairman. i want to make sure my republican colleagues are aware of the fact that the state of minnesota has not had a full- time u.s. attorney for 882 days. this came about because our u.s. attorney was appointed to head up the a.t.f. after the mess with fast and furious, he did an able job, he is now, through the vote of the senate, the director of the a.t.f. but during that time, for two year, he was a part-time u.s. attorney and in fact he was at the a.t.f. much more than the u.s. attorney. during that time the drug prosecutions have gone down remarkably. i've had federal judges call me repeatcally, i've had the f.b.i. director call me in minnesota repeatedly and we now have a very good candidate supported by law enforcement, re-- supported by the republican congressman, but now is on hold because the senate decided not to take up unanimous nominees and it is being blocked. we have a situation where over 100 people are working now for 882 days without a full-time boss and i just think it is absolutely outrageous when minnesota -- outrageous. when minnesota became a state, we got our u.s. attorney through president zachary taylor in two days and we have not had a full- time boss for 882 days. this is the office that prosecuted the second biggest white collar case next to madoff in the last few years. this is the office that dealt with what have been the additional terrorist for 9/11. this is the case of the office that handled numerous complex cases and been one of the best u.s. attorney's offices. i fear knowing half the people who worked there that worked for me when i was a prosecutor, there's a decline in morale, they need a boss. i'm angry ability this. -- i am angry at everyone about this. when senator grassley and i both have a u.s. attorney, when senator grassley has criticized the minnesota office because of the crime numbers, we need a u.s. attorney. >> i agree with you. and the point you made at the end is one that's extremely relevant and one that i hope the senate will consider. this is not simply a united states attorney for minnesota. we have a united states attorney in iowa who needs to be confirmed. we also have other people in the justice department who are awaiting confirmation and who are on the floor. and who traditionally, these are people who are not very -- they're not controversial at all. they are simply waiting to go through the normal senate process which is usually by unanimous consent. i would hope that we would get to the point where that process can be begun again so we can have installed, senate-confirmed people in these positions buzz it does matter having a senate- confirmed person either as united states attorney, assistant attorney general, it matters. so that is something that i hope we would be able to work our way through. >> i appreciate that. and i would suggest that no one allows to go this long with a job share. i understand it but because our congress hasn't been eable to -- been able to approve people for the a.t.f. or approve people, with a u.s. attorney's office that needs a u.s. attorney, we can't take responsibility to do that job and because of that no one should ever allow their u.s. attorney to take another job at the same time. we can't hand they will responsibility of confirming a replacement or confirming that person for that job. so we deserve what we get if that's what happens. i want to turn to something else which is sex trafficking, something that senator cornyn and i have a very strong bill with a lot of support, bipartisan support, literally takes minnesota's safe harbor model which has been very good for us in our state, just getting started but we had last month a 40-year sentence against the head of one of these rings and if you could talk about the president's interagency task force, what's going on, the super bowl is approaching this weekend, which is a concern which many have raised in terms of the uptick in the number of sex trafficking ads in dallas in 2011, there was a 300% increase in people advertising super bowl specials. can you talk about that? >> one thing i think you said, something our country needs to take note of. where super bowls locate, you see a decided increase in human trafficking. you see young girls, women, brought into these areas for ill icit sexual purposes. that is an ugly thing that this nation has got to confront, got to deal with but it is just indicitave of a larger problem that is -- the scourge of human trafficking, trafficing is a top priority for the justice department, it's a top priority for me as welch we need to stop, we need to have effective mechanisms to investigate and hold accountable people who would engage in these activities, we need to see the young women who are involved in this as victims, not as criminals and come up with rehabilitative services for them. we have a proposal, a proposal that you have made, with regard to getting trafficking experts together to look at this problem and come up with ways in which we are more effective in dealing with this issue. it is one that i fully support. we also have to deal, i think quite frankly, with the way in which this is advertised in the media. there are certain publications that make it known that young women -- ads that are published are available for these inappropriate sexual purposes and that is something that we need to deal with as well. we as a nation are not dealing with this nearly as effectively as we can. we have specialists in our u.s. attorney's offices trying to deal with he issue but we need to help our state and local partners as well. >> thank you. last thing, synthetic drugs, something that senator schumer and senator grassley and senator feinstein and i have worked on, with others in this room. this is the new drug on the scene. we have had several people die in our state and i did want to thank you and the u.s. attorney's office for the prosecution in duluth, minnesota, major head shop owner, they've been going on, people literally laying on the streets from these sin at the drugs,these synthetic and we're waiting for sentencing, but it was a major prosecution and the shop has been shut down, the guy in charge, they just found something like $700,000 in bags hidden in his bathroom and i just want to thank you for that work. >> it's an issue again that we need to confront. there's this myth among young people that these synthetic drugs are not dangerous. we have to dispel that myth. our d.e.a, drug enforcement administration, is really devoting a lot of time to dealing with these issues. we've had a number of significant busts. but i think there also is an educational component to this that we really have to focus on young people about the dangers of these drugs that are marketed in such a way to make them think that there are no dangers in using them. >> very good. thank you very much. i believe senator lee is next. >> thank you, madam chair and thank you, general holder, for joining us today. i appreciate the support you expressed earlier for the smarter sentencing act. i appreciate the opportunity to work with senator durbin on that and welcome the support of my colleagues. as we try to move forward in a way that makes our law enforcement efforts more effective. and make sure that we don't continue to escalate our federal prison population at a rate of about tenfold as we have over the last 30 years. one of the -- i wanted to talk to you first about metadata. regardless of how you read smith vs. maryland, and regardless of whether you think under smith vs. maryland and its project -- and its progeny a constitutional case can be made for the collection of this data as it relates to american citizens, wouldn't you agree that at some point, when you amass an enormous volume of metadata on american citizens, and you retain within the federal government the capacity to search that data, targeting potentially specific americans, that gives the u.s. government a lot of power to peer into things that are by their nature very private. >> yeah. and it's one of the reasons why in the interim, before we come up with whatever our proposals are going to be, the president has indicated that in querying that database now, we should only do so through the judicial authorization. that may be something we want to enshrine in the program. that is what the president has asked us to do in the interim. unless there is an emergency situation. >> so you would make that tantamount to a warrant in other words. because right now what you have are internal operating procedures, internal regulations that can be changed. whereas if we put that in law, that would provide greater protection. >> i think we want to try to work out who the mechanism might be so we would afford the appropriate amount of protection while at the same time not having the negative impact on the operational abilities of people who need to potentially get access to that information on a pretty quick basis. although there may be billions of records in those bases, i think the number from last year was in terms of the numbers of queries that were made was about 300 or so. >> i understand. i think for purposes of this discussion, even if we were to assume that all of the men and women serving us within the n.s.a., even if they are acting in good faith and abiding by their own rules, at some point there is a very grave risk of abuse. i don't know whether that might happen day from now, a year from now, 10 years or 20 years from how to. we have seen this movie before. we know how it ends and we know that it's not pleasant. this will be abused unless we put in place some very significant restrictions. i heard you mention a few minutes ago in response to some of the questions asked by senator grassley that it's the president's preference to work with congress. and that wherever possible he'd like to get congress to agree with him, to pass legislation that he would like. but of course the other side of that coin is something that the president referred to repeatedly last night in his state of the union address. which is that if he can't get congress to act, he'll go it alone. if congress won't act the way he wants congress to act, then he'll issue an executive order any time he gets the chance. this brings to mind a concern that i've had as to whether or not sufficient analysis is being undertaken when these executive orders are issued. as you know, you know, the supreme court has since justice jackson's concurrence in certain cases, when that jackson concurrence was adopted by the majority of the court, it has tended to separate out executive orders into three categories. you know, in category one you have a situation where congress acts pursuant to authorization by congress. and that's where his authority to act with an executive order is at its strongest. category two is where you have the president acting in the absence of either a congressional authorization or a congressional prohibition. justice jackson described this as sort of a twilight zone where it's a little unclear, it's a little murky. category three is where you have the president taking measures that are incompatible with congressional command. so, i would ask, number one, is this analysis undertaken each time the president issues an executive order? and, number two, was that kind of analysis undertaken when the president, for example, announced on july 2 of 2013, that he would not be enforcing the employer mandate of the affordable care act throughout the duration of 2014? even though by law the employer mandate was set to take effect, as of january 1, 2014. >> before the president exercised the executive authority that he discussed last evening, and again i want to preface that with i think the pretty clear indication from the president that he wants to work with congress on behalf of the american people. in in the absence that have kind of activity, as he's done with regard to raising of the minimum wage, he's used his executive authority or will use it to raise the minimum wage for those who do business with the federal government. those kinds of activities by the president are done after consultation with the justice department and an analysis is done to make sure that the president is acting in an appropriate and constitutional way. and those three categories that you talked about, that we all studied in law school from justice jackson, are among the things that obviously are part of the analysis. where the president's authority is greatest, a that twilight zone, and then where the president's authority is weakest. >> so in which of those three categories would you put the president's decision to delay the enforcement of the employer mandate? is that category one, two or three? >> i'll be honest with you, i don't remember looking at or having seen the analysis in some time. so i'm not sure where along the spectrum that would come. >> how about the executive order that he proposed last night with regard to minimum wage? would that be category one, category two or category three? >> again, from -- without having delved into this to any great degree -- >> but you're the attorney general. i assume he consulted you. >> there have been consultations done with the justice department. from my perspective,, i think that would put us in category one. given the congressional involvement in the matter, the ability of the president to regulate things that involve the executive branch and how contract something done. seems to me that the president is probably at the height of his constitutional power in that regard. >> so you're saying there is a federal statute that authorizes him to issue the executive order regarding the minimum wage? >> i think that there's a constitutional basis for it and given what the president's responsibility is in running the executive branch, i think that there is an inherent power there for him to act in the way that he has. >> and with regard to the employer mandate? >> again, as i said, i've not had a chance to look at it for some time, exactly what the analysis was there. i don't know what category. give than we're talking about a statute passed by congress that delegates, devolves to the executive branch certain authorities, i would think that you're probably in category one there as well. again, i've not looked at the analysis in some time. >> i appreciate your candor on that and i see my time's expired. i'd like to point out that this is, very important and it's one of the reasons why it could be very helpful for you to release legal analysis produced by the office of legal counsel or whoever is advising the president on these issues. it's imperative within our constitutional system that we not allow too much authority to be accumulated in one person. and it's one of the reasons why we have a constitution, to protect us against the excessive accumulation of power and i think the president certainly owes it to the american people and you owe it to the president, as his attorney general, to make sure that when he does act by executive order, that he do so clearly and clearly state the basis of his authority so that the american people can be aware of what's happening and on what basis he's claiming that authority. i look forward to hearing your explanation. perhaps you can submit something to us in writing after this hearing about his basis for making some of these decisions, particularly with regard to the delay of the employer mandate. thank you. >> let me just say that i have great respect for your legal analytical skills. clear you're your father's son. but i also want to assure you and the american people that the president will not act in a way that is inconsistent with the way other presidents have acted in using their executive authority. he has made far less use of his executive power at this point in his administration than some of his predecessors have. and he will only do so, as i indicated previously, where he's unable to work with congress to do things together. and that is the desire of the president, to work with congress to deal with the issues that confronts the american people. >> i respectfully but forcefully disagree with the assertion, if this is what you're saying, that because the number of executive orders issued by this president might be comparable to the number of executive orders issued by previous presidents, that that means that he hasn't made more use of it than other presidents have. when you look at the quality, not just the quantity, but the quality, the nature of the executive orders that he has issued, he has usurped an extraordinary amount of authority within the executive branch. this is not precedented. and i point to the delay, the unilateral delay, lawless delay in my opinion, of the employer mandate as an example of this. and so at a minimum i think he owes us an explanation as to what his legal analysis was. particularly given the fact that it's difficult to imagine who's got standing to challenge this and it's difficult to imagine who, if given -- if acquiring the standing to challenge this, could do so in a timely enough manner so as to avoid a mootness problem in the case. so it's all the more reason why it's important in this case. thank you very much. >> we have to separate then. i mean, with regard to the notion that there's a usurpation or that the president has acted in a lawless way. i think that's totally inconsistent with what the president has done and what his desires are to do. >> very good. >> thank you, madam chairman. i want to begin, i hadn't planned to begin this way, but i want to begin by respectfully taking issue with my colleague, senator lee, and say that the use of executive orders in the past has been very sparing and cautious and in fact in my view, the numbers of executive orders, which have been far less than any recent president, reflect that very sparing and cautiousness in my view too cautious and too sparing, and i applaud the president's apparent determination to use his authority more aggressively and more vigorously in areas that matter so much to the well-being of the american people, particularly when it comes to economic opportunity, as well as to immigration and veterans issues. the basic concept here is that the president is using his authority. whether you adopt the construct of three categories or any other method of analysis, at the end of the day, the president is simply executing the law. and using authority that has been granted to him by congress for the well-being of the american people. to protect their health and safety and to advance the national interests. in my view, and i've expressed this view through the subcommittee that i chair on regulation, in some instances the delay in using that authority has been more on the side of caution than on the side of how aggressively it should be used. so, i think your position that any use of executive power will be in accordance with the law and its legal authority, clarifies the point that i think has been missed in a lot of the reaction to the president's speech, where some of his critics have said that he's going to be legislating or bypassing the congress. in county fashion he is using legislation that has granted him authority. let me just say on the issue of sex trafficking, i welcome your comments on that score. i've proposed a resolution, bipartisan resolution with my colleague rob portman, who is not a member of this committee, basically saying that there should be more vigorous enforcement of these laws, particularly around the time of the super bowl. because the trafficking on websites like backpage.com tends to increase during this time. so i welcome your comments. and let me just add briefly, to take senator leahy's comment, i want to thank you and the department of justice for really over these past years viewing these legal issues on their merits, on their legal merits, putting politics aside. the justice department went through a dark period in my view under a previous administration when politics all too often became a part of the analysis and i want to thank the career justice department employees who work so hard and long under you to make sure that the rule of law is preserved. let me turn to a part of the president's speech where i might have hoped he had said more on the issue of preventing gun violence. the mention by the president was very brief. but i hope and i hope you will join me in the view that the president remains completely committed to ending gun violence in this country, adopting commonsense sensible measures like background checks and mental health initiatives, a ban on straw purchases and illegal trafficking. the bill that was before us unfortunately failed to pass. but i'd like your commitment on behalf of the administration that he remains resolutely and steadfastly in support of these initiatives. >> yes, we do still have that commitment. the worst day that i've had as attorney general of the united states was the day that i went to newtown to thank the first responders, crime scene research officers who were there and they took me on a tour of that school. and if people had the ability, if the american people, if legislators, members of congress had had the ability to be with me on that day, to walk through those classrooms and see the caked blood, to see the carpet that i didn't understand when i saw it, carpet picked up and i realized that was -- that's where bullets had gone through and picked up the carpet. if people had seen the crime scene search pictures of those little angels, i suspect that the outcome of that effort that we mounted last year would have been different. our resolve remains the same. my resolve is as firm as it was back then and i think what we should also understand is that the vast majority of the american people still want those commonsense gun safety measures that we advanced last year. our commitment is real and we will revisit these issues. >> and on the subject of the use of the president's authority, my hope is, and i would urge that he take whatever action is possible, as he has done in a number of steps already, and as you have done in trying to clarify the mental health issues that have to be reported to the system, my hope is that additional measures, executive actions are contemplated under that authority. >> the president -- it is his intention to again try to work with congress. but in the absence of meaningful action to explore all the possibilities and use all the powers that he has to frankly just protect the american people. >> thank you. one last subject. i am hoping that the administration will also explore very vigorously what it can do to stop sexual assaults on campus. i applaud the president's initiative and you were part of a task force that was appointed. the council on women and girls very recently emphasizes how pressing and pervasive this problem is on our campuses. i am attending an initiative in connecticut to try to raise awareness about it. and i'd like your commitment that you will work with me and others on this committee on this issue. >> look forward to working with you on that very important issue. the statistics are very alarming. 20% of all young women are either sexually assaulted or an attempt made at a sexual assault. usually who are in college, usually this happens in their freshman or the early part of their sophomore years. we are going to try to use those kinds of statistics and the work of this task force that the president has put together to try to deal with that issue and we will look forward to working with you and other members of congress in trying to come up with meaningful ways that we can deal with an issue that has too often been, if not ignored, not given the attention that it deserves. thinks thato one this issue merely involves rhetoric, there is a legal basis. statutesix and other protecting women against ongoing assaults and

Transcripts For MSNBCW Dateline 20200824

believing it. >> sudden, suspicious, but no evidence of a crime. >> any signs of a struggle? >> no, it was case closed. >> years passed, new lives, two new wives. >> he's extremely charming. >> we just had the most amazing time. >> then a new detective dusts off the old case. >> what jumped out at you? >> most definitely that her arms were in an unnaturally raised position. >> my first thought is we missed something here. >> the manner of death would be homicide. >> what really happened in that bedroom? >> i wanted an answer to the questions. >> a young mother's death a mystery. was it murder? >> don't give me excuses. >> it runs through the heart of america, beating industry, towns and imaginations. the mississippi river gave tom sawyer and huckleberry finn and just across the river in quincy, illinois, lived another larger than life character. curtis lovelace a small town kid who wanted to be a star and for a time, he was. a football champion for the university of illinois. >> he's an all american? >> all american. >> this is what kids dream about? >> right. >> he was living that life. >> absolutely. it was looking like he would go to the nfl. that was kind of a dream of his. >> then he realized grander visions, fighting crime as a prosecutor, serving his country in the national guard and his community in politics. >> i'm someone who wants meaningful work that's going to make the difference in the lives of people. >> but it was what happened in this little house sequence to one person in particular that made curtis really stand out for automatic world to see. >> now to continuing coverage in the curtis lovelace murder case. >> it was a heated day at the stand. >> right now, the defense is presenting its closing arguments in the case. >> big dreams on a mighty river can carry far or they can drive you under. this is the very strange journey of curtis lovelace, all american to criminal defender. let's roll back the years to high school and to the woman that would become the focus of so much speculation. corey deidrichson. >> corey and i went to high school towing. we really didn't run in the same crowd. we had some mutual friends and we didn't date in high school. >> back then, curtis was more focused on football than dating. it wasn't until he went off to the university of illinois, roughly 200 miles away and became a star athlete that he truly noticed the girl from back home for the first time. it was during college break. former classmates bumped into each other in quincy and quickly became an item. corey wasted no time spreading the news. >> i'll never forgive the day, i was playing tennis with a friend. that's when she told us, kurt was it. >> she went to high school with the new couple. >> surprised? >> not really. no they seemed a great fit together and she was, she was very, very much smitten. >> it wasn't long before corey was telling her mother, marty, she'd found the one. >> she comes home and we're sitting there, she said, i met the man i'm going to marry. whoa. >> back up and she kept her promise. in 1991, just after college, corey and curtis married. he studied law. she worked a small job to support them both. after graduation, they decided to buy a home in quincy. >> they wanted to be in the neighborhood. they wanted to be close by and that just made it all the better. so we found them a house and they moved back. >> virtually over the fence? >> two houses up and one over, yeah. >> curtis' ambitions drove the young couple. he became a prosecutor in the adam county state attorney's office and dabbled in school board politics, winning a seat and serving as president. he even found time to teach a law class at quincy university. in between the professional milestones, the lovelaces started a family, first girl, lindsay and three years, how was corey as a mother? >> fantastic, she was a great mom. there wasn't anything she didn't do for those kids. >> corey's days were filled with diapers, play dates and even then this mom never forget to be a good daughter n. early 2006 her dad was dying of cancer. that was a major event? >> that was a major event. >> his health declined? >> four years he fought it it. the last six months of his night. she came at 5:00 and sat to visit. that was her time with him. >> warn down with the stress of care giving, raising four kids, was it any wonder when corey, herself, fell im. it was the weekend before valentine's day 2006. >> she was feeling poorly. >> poorly, how? what was she ailing from in. >> just flu-like symptoms. throwing up, we thought she had the flu. >> but on monday the night before valentine's day, corey still managed to get the kids' valentines cards ready for school the next day. her daughter lindsay then 12 remembers cuddling up with her mom, watching the winter olympics and snowboarder shaun white. >> i remember watching him with her, like, mom, he's so cute. as a 12-year-old, like that was awesome. >> it wasn't that she was bed ridden or anything tant? >> no, she was -- >> she was just feeling crummy? >> she was feeling sick. even for my mom, that was not common. even if she was sick, she did what she thought was expected of her and took care of us and made us dinner and laundry because that was her role. >> but when tuesday valentine's day dawned, curtis says he urged her to take it easy. >> we decided i would cancel my morning class at quincy university in order to get the kids to school. >> so dad is going to be on deck? it's going to be dad's time to get everybody up and running here in. >> yeah. right so i cancelled my class helped the kids get ready for school. she did come down stairs to help with that. >> he says corey was so ill, he had to help her back to bed before driving the three kids to school, backpacks stuffed with valentine's cards. within minutes, he was back. only the home cluttered with clothes and toys was now filled with something else. silence. quiet enough to break a family's heart. >> coming up, what had happened in that house? >> as i got closer, i immediately knew that something was really, really wrong. >> so wrong, it would tear apart a family and puzzle police for years to come. >> every detective needs to keep in mind that there could be a bigger pick. >> when "dateline" continues. it's pretty inspiring the way families redefined the word 'school' this year. it's why, at xfinity, we're committed to helping kids keep learning through the summer. and help college students studying at home stay connected through our university program. we're providing affordable internet access to low income families through our internet essentials program. and this summer, xfinity is creating a virtual summer camp for kids at home- all on xfinity x1. we're committed to helping all families stay connected. learn more at xfinity.com/education. the routine of the house was in a tizzy, with corey sick in bed, it had been up to curtis to get the three oldest kids off to school. now he was back. >> when i arrived home. everything was quiet. i assumed that corey was sleeping, resting. she hadn't slept most of the night. i was just going to leave her alone in order to sleep. >> before looking in on her, he said he went over his e-mails in the kitchen. then he headed upstairs. >> i needed to take a shower and as i walked up the steps, i looked to the left the door to our bedroom was as i left it, opened. i could see her lying in bed and i could see something from the distance didn't seem right. so i -- >> what made you say that looking in? >> i'm really not sure. as i got closer, i could see that she was pale, she was motionless and i immediately knew that something was really, really wrong. >> did you think she's dead? >> i shook her. i called out her name and tant i knew that she was dead. >> in that moment, he said, his thoughts turned to his four-year-old boy larsson who was still in the house. >> and i needed to get larsson out of the house. >> and what did you do? >> i grabbed larsson, i believe he was in bed and i took him immediately over to, to his grandparents' house. >> corey's mom marty answered the door. she remembers her son-in-law standing there with a young boy and saying something nonsense cal about her daughter being dead. >> it was just kind of mid-morning. >> and there he is, your son-in-law. >> there he is, he hand me larsson and he says something about people are coming or something. i often regretted not just putting larsson down and running over there. >> stunned, she called her son, corey's brother peter at his dental practice. >> i get a phone call from my mom kind of out of the blue, i didn't think anything. >> corey is dead, that can't be in. >> she's 30-years-old, no way, i just saw her three weeks ago. >> reporter: then the detective was assigned to head the death investigation. when he arrived at the scene, he went straight upstairs. he was in the bedroom when the coroner examined corey's body. >> he tested her body temperature by placing his hand against her abdomen. i followed suit. >> what is it warm or cold this. >> the abdomen was warm. >> what did that tell the coroner? >> he knew the time of death was narrowed then for the body to still be warm. >> reporter: it seems clear that corey's death had been recent, within the past hour or some not at all certain why or how the woman died. the detective couldn't rule out any possibility, including foul play. >> around the room, itself, any overturned glasses or any signs of a struggle? >> no. >> so as i hear you, you are telling me, you are seeing a woman who has apparently died in her bed and not that long before authorities arrive? >> that's right. >> if i can stress, there wasn't a single mark on her other than what appeared to be a skin blemish under her nose, not a mark. >> and 80 there was something about the position of corey's body that did strike him as odd. he thought death and gravity would have caused her arms to drop. instead, they were both fixed in midair, hovering above her chest. >> i was looking for an explanation to that. i addressed it to curtis lovelace. i asked him if there was a possibility that blankets had been under her arms when he discovered her? >> what did he say? >> no. >> you are saying the scene he saw it is when he saw it and found his wife, by his account? >> yes. >> then the detective was not getting hung up on one detail this early in the case. >> every detective needs to keep in mind, there could be a bigger picture. >> oh, yes, there was a portrait of a woman, a par trait of a marriage, filtered with details painted in a most unflattering life. >> coming up, a peek behind back doors. you were drinking too much. >> i drank too much. >> corey was drinking too much in. >> and corey was drinking too much. >> i remember crying and not believing it. >> when "dateline" continues. 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(doorbell rings) - [group] grubhub. for spending a perfectly reasonable amount of time on the couch with tacos from grubhub? rewarded! get a free delivery perk when you order. - [group] grubhub. the quincy, illinois detective was trying to understand why a 38-year-old woman had died suddenly. as he looked for clues inside corey lovelace's home filled with the clutter of young family life, jeff baird noticed one item in particular, a white cup by her bedside. >> i checked an unknown liquid that smelled faintly from alcohol. >> the detective asked her husband curtis what it was. did she tell you she liked to have a vodka and tonic? >> yes. >> that was likely in the styrofoam? >> yes. >> the 24 ounce glass in. >> yes. >> he told us there was alcohol in the home. >> there was alcoholism in our family. so there was the ugly side of that. >> you were drinking too much in. >> looking back, yes, i drank too much. >> corey was drinking too much in. >> corey was drinking too much. it was impacting her ability to take care of things at home. >> he also told the detective that corey had been taking falls, sometimes out of bed, once more the detective later found out corey had been battling bulemia. the picture quickly emerging, corey had not been a healthy woman. i know you guys are looking at the subject is telling you, how does he phrase it? what were you seeing on that score? >> it's very important. i saw a man answering my questions. >> not being evasive. >> cooperative, solemn, upset. >> curtis also retraced the family's steps that morning. >> he last saw his wife around 8:15. he took the kids to school. he returned, and found her deceased. >> with that the detective finished the interview and left. curtis knew his awful day was about to get worse. not the least, he had four children ranging from 4 to 12 to look after. how do you them the children? >> that was -- i think to this day that is the most difficult thing i have ever had to do. i believe i called the schools and let them know that i would be on my way. >> reporter: lindsay the only girl, was the eldest of the lovelace kids. >> i remember being at school. i remember getting a call from the office that i was getting picked up and in my mind i thought, oh, maybe my mom went to the hospital. she didn't feel good the day prior, maybe she had to go to the hospital. it's fine. >> once inside the office, her father broke the news. >> told me my father had died. i remember then on my world crashing down. >> did you say what had happened? what's going on? >> i'm sure i asked what had happened. i just remember crying and not believing it and so we went. we left and we went to my grandma's house. i'm like, i want to go back to school. >> and you did on the day you lost your mom? >> because that was normal for me. it was a normalcy thing for me. >> in hindsight, maybe the best thing she could have done. her favorite teacher for her. >> she had wolf pups. she had a friend. i remember holding the wolf pups. i'm sure they had lost her missouri they're orphan. >> what a jumble of things. >> that was the most comforting thing i could have done is hold those wolves. >> by then, her untimely death was rippling across town. students across the law class were the first outside the family and authorities to suspect something had happened. >> his class was all outside his classroom waiting for him to come. >> reporter: one of curtis' students, erica, was surprised to learn his class had been cancelled. later, she learned why. >> everyone was in shock. she was a very young 38-year-old. she seemed healthy from what everybody understood. though, it was a huge shock then. >> so that's very sad, your professor's wife has died. you didn't know her? >> i didn't know her and i really didn't know him at that time either. >> soon, everyone in town was wondering what had caused corey's death the pathologist who performed the autopsy a day later noted some trauma. small abrasion on corey's upper lip and another mark inside. it appeared to be a cut. curtis mentioned that corey had fallen in the days before her death. >> those falls as they described it could account for the injury to the lip, right? presumably? >> i wish i knew. yes, a fall could account for an injury. >> the pathologist noted corey had what's called fatty liver, usually caused by heavy drinking. she doesn't know what killed this woman? >> that was frustrating. she finds disease of the liver which can be associated with sudden death. >> reporter: unusual for a young woman to die of unknown causes, it does happen, with no more to go on the detective closed the case. corey's mother marty still in shock could barely bring herself to read the autopsy report. >> corey was drinking. we don't deny that. she was bulimic and i did try to talk to curtis about that at one time. toll her it was okay. i'm going to be fine. >> now, as she warned corey, marty knew her suffering would only deepen. her husband john was dying. >> we had a visitation for corey and john sat next to me. it was like he was saying good-bye to friend, too. he didn't come home from the hospital after that. >> so both those loss one right on top of the other? >> within the span of a month, marty lost a husband and a daughter. even though corey's remains were cremated. that was a choice the entire family made together but the decision to cremate would be one that would haunt this river town for years to come. coming up -- >> she was different than anyone i had ever dated before, maybe in some ways that difference intrigued me. >> curtis moves on. much too fast for some. >> she arrived as the girlfriend. did i think it was too quickly? yes. >> when "dateline" continues. hello, i'm dara brown. here's what's happening. now back to "dateline." for so many years, he had been the guy in town people looked up to and admired. curtis lovelace, football star, school board president. suddenly a widower who needed help. >> it was overwhelming. people did come forward, friend and family, helping get the kids to school in the morning. so i could also go to work and then picking them up from school. >> it's a lot in. >> it's a lot. but we came towing as a family and did what we needed to do. >> the long-time friend, curtis was stoic in the weeks after corey's death. but one time she noticed it slipped a little. it was at a high school reunion that summer. >> they were doing a montage, corey's pick comes up and goes, hey, that's my wife. and it was just times like that, that made, you know, made me really think that you know a grieving husband. >> that's why a few months later, she and other friends were surprised to hear that curtis had met someone knew. that was fast. >> she was different than, than anyone i had ever dated before. maybe in some ways that difference intrigued me. >> she was erica. as in the former student who showed up to professor lovelace's fateful class that valentine's morning. >> he's extremely charming. anything that i needed or wanted he could take care of and he did. >> at the time this interview took place, she asked us to alter her appearance some to protect her privacy. she began recounting she is a 33-year-old single woman, had bumped into her 37-year-old -- had bumped into her professor. >> i told him there's places he can go in town there is more people his age. i thought he was a lot older than he was. he just seemed. >> he stood out at that club in. >> he did, quite a bit. >> reporter: not long after, they pit their friendship and then love. they started dating about six months after corey's death. erica and her daughter from a previous relationship eventually moved in with curtis and his four children. >> it was nice my child kind of tucked in there with the rest of them. all of us fell into place. >> that's not the way curtis' daughter lindsay thought. what did you think of her in. >> we did not get along from the get-go. she arrived at the girl friend. that's how it was. did i think it was too quickly,? yes. but adults make their own decision. >> in fact, lindsay was so unhappy with her dad's girlfriend, she picked up and moved in with her grandmother, corey's mom, two doors down, after two years of living together, curtis and erica married. she admired he how he taught and did local sports and served in the national guard. he had an outstanding resume. >> he did. >> this was the all american boy. >> i loved he was on the school board. that was where my profession was leaning. i loved that he worked with children. he was great. he seemed to be great with the children. >> they even bought a new place in town together and moved from the house where corey had died. there was domestic tranquility at first. but eventually, erica says she saw a change in her husband. >> he'd detach once in a while, just from the whom family. i was kind of left all to myself. he would hide in the basement and blame it on work. >> she says their mutual silence separated them. then resentment exploded in loud confrontations. it just wasn't working. >> i believe looking back, that was a rebound relationship. and a relationship that i should not done not only for me but more importantly for my children. >> in 2013, after five years of marriage, curtis filed for divorce. now you might think that he would have been gun shy about jumping into love again. but not curtis. >> it was just surreal and lovely. >> this is christine. sheff had known curtis since high school. he even took her to their homecoming dance, marriages and careers separated them for a time. >> it was odd. i wasn't prepared for a relationship and wasn't looking for anything like that. >> where were new your life? were you single? >> yes, i was single. >> after reconnecting on facebook the former classmates decided to get caught up for the first time in three decades. >> there he is at the door. i see kurt lovelace, my senior high school homecoming date standing there. we spent that evening with friends and before we knew it, everyone else had gone. we had the most amazing time. >> i was meeting in many ways the same person who i took to homecoming just more beautiful, more interested and more kind than i had ever remembered. >> it just worked. >> more than six months later on the day after christmas, 2013, curtis was once again standing at the altar. only this time the new mrs. lovelace seemed to have approval from everyone, even 20-year-old daughter lindsay, who had packed up at the arrival of her father's last flame. >> she seemed very jen win. i like that she cared a lot about the boys. >> did you think maybe this could be the restoration of the family in. >> yeah, i did. >> after you seen of the nightmare of erica, now christine seems okay to you. she is certainly making an effort to reach out to you, right in. >> i thought our family deserved happiness at that point after everything we had been through, i was hoping it all panned out okay. >> it did go okay, christine kept the lovelaces off like a train schedule. christine, meanwhile, put on her baker's apron. >> i opened a natural pie show. i was making 100 pies a week. i was selling out of pies before 9:00 in the morning. >> so this wasn't a hobby to keep you bes in. >> no. >> this was a going concern. >> yes, absolutely. >> what's your go-to pie in. >> i like blueberry, i make a mean gooseberry, you name it, kip do it. >> after years of turmoil, it seemed the lovelaces were in true form. christine adopted curtis' sons as her own. everything was working. but darker souls wait for the train wreck just when things are looking all hunky dory. it turns out that train was hurdling down the track. >> coming up a new detective leads to new suspicion. >> what jumped out at you? >> most definitely that her arms where in an unnaturally raised position. >> and the start of a new information. >> in the autopsy there were things listed as suspicious findings. >> my first thought is we missed something here. >> when "dateline" continues. the river roared. the barges slid by. and corey lovelace's death slipped further into the past. her mom. >> i'd go sit in the cemetery by myself for a little while. of course, valentine's now is nothing. i don't do valentine's day. >> corey's husband, meanwhile, had married, divorced, remarried again. in all that time, no one questioned the why or how of corey's death. but all that changed one day when a man in a windowless room a few blocks off the mississippi found himself with spare time on his hands. >> i was sitting in my office and all of our files are on computer. >> it was late 2013. almost eight years after corey's death. adam gibson a newly minted detective with the quincy police department began idly pulling up old files. >> not looking for anything in particular, reading old cases. corey lovelace popped into my head and i read the report. >> did that name mean anything to you? >> i knew corey lovelace, at one time he had been our state's attorneys. >> a statement from curtis the husband, police interviews with the three older children and the pathologist summary with the autopsy findings with photos. >> so you knew what happened in 2006 sort of or -- >> i knew she had passed away on valentine's day of 2006. >> what was the medical examiner's finding about the death of that woman? >> it was undetermined. the original autopsy. >> what did that mean to you? >> undetermined can mean a lot of things. in this particular autopsy there were things listed as suspicious or traumatic findings. >> for instance, an abrasion on corey's face under her nose, something the arriving officer observed that day the pathologist noticed the cuts, what she called the laceration on corey's upper lip. and an electrifying image the police photos of the dead wife and mother as she lay in her bed. what jumped out at you. >> most definitely the arms raids in a different position. >> not supported like anything, out there like statue? >> yes. >> using police photos of the scene, we depicted this graphic representation, can you see her arms frozen in death above her body. >> that final pose caught detective jeff baird's curiosity, now, adam gibson did. ring of more tis? >> yes, in my opinion. >> reporter: the mechanics of rigor more tis go like this upon death a human's muscles start to stiffen. to the detective, it looked like they were in an ad vans state of rigor, meaning she likely died many hours before this photo was taken. remember, curtis said he tucked his sickly wife in bed an hour before finding her dead. it didn't make sense, he went straight to his bosses with the old lovelace file. >> my first thought is we missed something here. >> reporter: the chief had been in charge in 2006 when everyone assumed corey had died natural debt. he says he never sue the photos the detective was holding before him. >> that's when i saw the pictures the first time. >> what did you think? >> i thought this is odd. this is not natural. >> the posture of the arms. >> definitely appeared to me that rigor mortis set in. i looked at those pictures and can't believe we send an undetermined cause of death and a natural death. >> detective gibson agreed. they had a problem. >> very thin, notes from a medical examiner from eight years before and a few photos, very few in. >> and only two slides were taken by the pathologist and passed on in evidence. so, yeah, very thin time. >> so police went back to the doctor that did that autopsy and asked her to review the case. she did, but she would not alter her original findings. the next step might have been to order a new alms. but that wasn't possible since corey's family had her remains cremated. the only option was to work with what they had. detective gibson had a suggestion. >> he wanted to have the autopsy reviewed by someone else , have it -- basically, a review of the original autopsy done. couldn't do a new autopsy because the body had been cremated. >> the chief okayed the request to review old autopsy notes. the detective also had something else in mind to beef up his case talk to anyone and everyone who had known corey. his first call was to her mom, marty. he told her he wanted to meet, but not why. >> he said, can we set up a time? make it tomorrow or whatever? >> i said, well, scratch what i'm doing this afternoon. come now. i was so nervous about what it was. >> everything old was about to be new again. new, very unsettling. >> coming up. >> the thing that struck me first was the position of mrs. lovelace's arms. >> a different medical examiner reaches a different conclusion. >> the manner of death would be homicide. >> and a detective has a question for curtis' daughter. >> tuesday morning before you went to school, what do you remember? >> what did you think was happening? >> i didn't know. >> when "dateline" continues. corey lovelace's mom had tried hard to move on after her daughter's sudden death in 2006. but after a phone call and a visit from detective adam gibson in early 2014, she started to wonder. >> a lot of things i shoved away. really shoved away. and one of 'em was really why -- cory had died. >> did you ever suspect that there might be foul play involved in her death? >> no. >> reporter: friends of both curtis and cory also started getting calls from the detective. beth dobrzynski remembers his message asking her to call asap. >> so then when i called detective gibson and he said, "we're reopening the case of cory didriksen lovelace," i was shocked. i was shaking. >> so the detective seemed to be interested in what you could tell him about the marriage? >> correct. >> which, she admitted, wasn't much. beth and other close friends said cory didn't really talk about her marriage. so the detective did something no one else had done on this case. he started knocking on doors talking to cory's former neighbors. >> all the neighbors talked about -- all the -- the constant arguing and fighting. >> so you were getting a picture of what was goin' on in that marriage that wasn't in focus in 2006. >> right. >> the detective went a step further. he got in his car and drove more than a hundred miles to the university of iowa to talk with someone who would have been an eyewitness to the lovelace marriage. >> i'm adam gibson. >> nice to meet you. >> i'm a detective with quincy. >> ok. ok. >> reporter: lyndsay lovelace, curtis and cory's oldest, was in college, her mom's alma mater, when she was summoned to the campus police department to talk with detective gibson. >> i was very confused why someone from quincy had driven there. >> the questions that followed didn't clear things up -- at least not at first. the detective started talking about her late mom and asking about her parents' marriage. >> how was your parents' relationship, do you remember? >> they would fight. it was an interesting relationship. there were times we were like the perfect family, we'd do like fun family stuff. and then there were times i do remember being woken up at night by my parents' fighting. >> reporter: for the first time, someone inside the lovelace family was revealing the turmoil before cory's death. but then the detective asked lyndsay to describe that tuesday in 2006 when her mother's body was found. >> tuesday morning, before you went to school, what do you remember? >> the answer seemed to take the air out of his theory of the case. >> she was up and walking around -- she had made breakfast. i don't remember what we had for breakfast. but she had like made us breakfast and she was helping us get ready for school because we all had our little valentines day boxes. >> the young woman -- candid about her parent's troubled marriage was nonetheless supportive of her father's account. cory ha died minutes after seeing her children off to school -- not hours earlier, as the detective suspected. if he'd been disappointed in lyndsay's answer, he didn't show it. but he did make a request that caught her off guard. >> if you do talk to your dad, only thing that i would ask is that you not discuss the fact that i came and talked to you yet. >> what did you think was happening? >> i didn't know, especially when he said, "don't tell your father i was here." >> what's that mean? >> and i went back to where i was living and just sat there and thought, "what is going on?" and then it slowly hit me. >> reporter: she realized the detective -- for whatever reason suspected her father had something to do with her mother's sudden death. even so, she kept her promise and did not tell her father about the visit. in the meantime, detective gibson was waiting to hear from dr. jane turner, the assistant medical examiner for the city of st. louis. he had hired her to review that old autopsy report. >> the thing that struck me first just looking at the scene photographs was the position of mrs. lovelace's arms. >> she says the photos show cory's body in full rigor mortis. like the detective, the m.e. believed the picture and curtis' story were out of sync. >> i estimate that the time of death was somewhere ten to 12 hours -- prior to her photograph being taken that morning. so, somewhere around 9.00 or 10:00 -- or 11pm the night before. >> in other words, the night of february 13th -- not the morning of february 14th as curtis claimed. something else bothered her: turner thought the scene appeared altered as though something under cory's arms was removed. >> why were her hands not resting on a surface and that surface-- whatever that object was that her hands had been resting on -- why wasn't it there anymore? >> reporter: turner noted the abrasion on cory's face and the cut inside her upper lip. to her, that suggested something had been pressed against the woman's mouth. >> and then seeing the marks around the mouth and inside the mouth all suggest that suffocation occurred. >> reporter: suffocation. an abrasion. an accepted timeline that no longer fit. turner was convinced cory had not died a natural death. she concluded someone had used an object -- likely a pillow to suffocate the woman; left it under her arms and removed it many hours later. >> the manner of death would be homicide. >> reporter: for the detective cory lovelace's death came down to two competing narratives from two compelling women. one relied on science to explain a murder. the other relied on memory to describe an ailing mother just before she passed away. in the end, the detective believed the science. he believed that a crime had, indeed, been committed. but now chief copley had a little problem back at the quincy police officers who had conducted very different investigations of the same case. >> detective gibson, you believe that this was a homicide. >> i -- i do believe that. >> officer baird, do you believe that this was a death of natural causes? are you divided on that fundamental issue? >> i'm now uncertain. from what i've heard and been told, under the -- under the new investigation. much more uncertain than i was in 2006. >> their boss chief copley still backs both men. he says if there's blame to be had in this case, he'll take it. >> you hate to -- admit that mistakes were made. and -- and i want to say that i -- i take full responsibility. i was chief in 2006. you know -- i -- i had detectives and their supervisors workin' on this case. but -- >> did chief, did he get a pass because he was a pillar of the community? he was a big shot guy. >> i don't know that he got a pass, i think he may have got -- the benefit of the doubt. >> when "dateline" continues. reinventing. it's what small businesses do. with comcast business, your small business can work faster, with powerful internet from the nation's largest gig-speed network. work safer, with all your connected devices automatically protected by securityedge. and work anywhere, with comcast business at home, our new business-grade internet solution for remote workers. whatever your business needs, comcast business has the solutions to help you not just bounce back, but bounce forward. call or go online to find out more. continuing our story, seven years after the mysterious death of cory lovelace -- >> i just remember crying and not believing it. >> police have re-opened the case. >> "we missed something here." >> her husband curtis, who had remared twice, is the prime suspect. >> what jumped out at you? mother was alive that morning. he said he only remembered getting out of bed and going to his mom's room. but she didn't answer him. >> i just remember like going into the room and then she wouldn't wake up and i think it was valentines day. >> uh huh. >> yeah, dad was gone, came back and i told him, yeah that she was not waking up. >> reporter: but the two older boys said they did remember seeing their mom that morning. this is lincoln, the middle boy. >> i just remember like waking up and like -- i remember her not feeling good and i was sitting on the stairs and then i went to school. i think i remember saying i love you before we left but that's pretty much it. >> reporter: logan, the eldest son, said he knew for certain that his mom was alive that february 14th. >> she was sitting on the steps, like, ready for us to leave the house. >> reporter: christine was still trying to find her husband. she didn't know he had been transferred to a different jail. eventually, he called. >> he told me everything would be okay. and that we were gonna have to -- to fight some things. >> reporter: christine was a wreck. her husband was in jail and she was dumbfounded as to why the police had taken the boys out of school and then interviewed them without parental permission. she felt better about this though -- the two oldest boys backed their dad's story they had seen their mom cory alive valentine's day morning, just like curtis said. >> they saw their mother alive that day. the -- >> and that's -- that's the gist of their story. yes, i saw her alive that morning -- >> yes. >> when dad took us to school. >> uh-huh. >> so there-- >> it was valentine's day. >> so therefore she couldn't have been dead upstairs and -- >> right. >> dying and rigor mortis setting in. >> right. >> because we saw her alive. >> uh-huh yes. >> reporter: the boys' sister lyndsay, had also told police two separate times her mom was alive that morning, had seen her off to school on valentine's day. >> she was standing in the front hall like marching us out the door like she always did. >> reporter: on the day of her father's arrest, lyndsay was away at college when she had an emotional talk with her brothers. >> talked to 'em on the phone the day he got arrested. and they passed the phone around and they were sobbing 'cause they were scared. hold on. hold on. and they asked me to come home, and that was the last thing i ever said to them -- like, ever talked to them. >> reporter: that's when another tragedy unfolded within the lovelace family. around the time of curtis' arrest his relationship with his daughter once again deteriorated. the family doesn't want to get into details but soon lyndsay found herself cut off from her brothers, too. >> i had been shut out, completely shut out. >> well, you knew the charge against your father and the theory of the crime -- that he had put a pillow over your mother's nose and smothered her. that's a stark image to deal with. >> it's something i didn't ponder, and i chose not to ponder. >> reporter: though a jury would soon be pondering curtis' guilt or innocence. in august 2014, the 45-year old former assistant state's attorney found himself standing in a courtroom. this time as a defendant at his own arraignment. >> having to appear in a courtroom that i had served as a prosecutor, and dressed in -- in stripes and -- and having my -- my hands and my feet shackled. those were some really some low times. >> reporter: married just eight months wife number three's commitment "for better or for worse" was immediately put to the test. >> my husband, who is kind and caring and compassionate is charged with something so heinous that it makes no sense. >> reporter: if convicted, curt lovelace could spend the rest of his life in prison for the murder of his wife cory. as if that weren't enough stress, his daughter lyndsay was about to drop a bombshell. coming up -- a daughter's difficult decision. >> i don't know what's in lyndsay's head and in her heart. one day she was happy then everything changed. >> and a mother recounts what she says was curtis' bizarre behavior the day her daughter died. >> i open the door and he hands me larson. >> and says? >> "oh, and by the way, cory's dead." >> when "dateline" continues. . to all the people who realize they can du more with less asthma thanks to dupixent, the add-on treatment for specific types of moderate-to-severe asthma. dupixent isn't for sudden breathing problems. it can improve lung function for better breathing in as little as 2 weeks and 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the man had been trying to break up a fight between two women and was tasered and shot several times as he tried to enter a vehicle. long-time trump adviser kellyanne conway says she's leaving her job at the white house to focus on family matters. her husband, george conway, is also leaving his role at the anti-trump lincoln project. now back to "dateline extra." curtis lovelace was the hometown hero. now his face was plastered on the front pages of quincy's newspaper as an accused murderer. >> we're relying on scientific medical -- >> reporter: the media, including nbc's quincy affiliate, were all over the story, covering nearly every moment of his fall from grace. >> he's accused of killing his first wife. >> the former prosecutor would himself be prosecuted by ed parkinson. >> you can't get around rigor mortis in my opinion and make sense of this case, and the timeline doesn't make sense with curtis lovelace. >> in january 2016 nearly a decade after cory lovelace's death curtis arrived for the first day of his trial. he faced 20 to 60 years in prison upon conviction for first-degree murder. he'd pleaded not guilty. cameras were not allowed in the courtroom. >> it's clear to me it didn't matter what i did as far as the prosecution was concerned. their only concern was they needed to create a crime and they needed for me to look bad in order to do that. >> curtis didn't necessarily need prosecutors' help to look bad. some of his own actions the day cory died were at the very least unusual, including never calling 911. >> he called who? >> his boss. >> his wife is dead in the bed? >> yes. >> and he calls his boss? >> yeah. he said "my wife is dead." so his boss said, well, would you like me to call the ambulance people? yes. would you do that? >> cory's mom, marty diedricksen, who lived just a few house as way, testified curtis broke the news of her daughter's death in what she thought was the most callous way. there was a knock at her door and curtis was standing there with 4-year-old larsen. >> i opened the door and he hands me larsen sxwlp a. >> and says? >> by the way, cory's dead. and leaves. >> marty, i've got to say that's very strange. take your grandson, and by the way, your daughter's dead. >> he was emotionless. let's put it that way. people who saw him that day claimed that he was without emotion. >> curtis also knew cpr, and yet he never tried to revive his wife. >> on the day why didn't you do cpr? >> i don't know. i don't know why i didn't do cpr. i don't know why i didn't call 911. in looking back i saw my wife, cory, dead and i didn't know how to react. >> prosecutor parkinson next went after the first police investigation, pushing hard against detective baird who handled the case. he questioned if baird gave curtis, who was then an assistant state's attorney, preferential treatment. >> he was a prosecutor. they were the police. he gave them a story that he -- how it happened. they bought into it. after all, he's one of us. >> so maybe tougher questions didn't get asked? >> i think so. >> neighbors testified the lovelace household was sometimes a stormy one and that, parkinson suggested to jurors, is the backdrop of cory's death. >> they fought all the time. it was a rocky marriage with lots of arguments going both ways, and it got out of control. maybe the evidence indicates that placing a pillow over one's face to make them stop yelling at me, maybe in her weakened state if she was -- had flu-like symptoms, maybe it went too far. >> the state's theory, remember, is the force of the pillow caused that cut and abrasion on the outside and inside of cory's lip. the prosecutor then implied the pillow was placed under her arms after she died and later removed. >> if you leave it there through the night and while rigor mortis is setting in and then if a person is thinking oh, my god, what did i do and oh, there's that pillow and i'm going to get rid of that pillow, then the arms are already up. >> and you think that's what happened? >> yes. >> but then came perhaps the most anticipated testimony for the prosecution. lindsay. curtis's own daughter took the stand. two times over a span of eight years she told police her mother was alive that morning. >> she had felt better. >> but on the stand with her dad's life on the line she changed her story, telling jurors she was no longer sure her mom was alive that day. >> i don't remember any of it. >> but it doesn't stick in your memory? >> no. >> and yet detective baird's notes, you do tell him the story about seeing your mother. and then with the videotaped interview with detective gibson you seem quite clear about that morning and yes, you saw her and went off to school. what had happened in the interim between your statement and going into trial on the stand and then kind of stepping back from all of that? >> it was the fact of no one had honestly asked me sincerely what had happened that day and i'd never taken time actually to think about it. >> well, detective gibson did a couple of years before when he took your statement, right? >> but yen, i didn't know why he was asking me, i didn't know what was going on, and i gave the story i always gave. so when i had to silt there and think about it, i had to be honest with myself, and it wasn't the answer i wanted, i wish i could say, i really do wish i could say yes, i remember her or no, i didn't see her. >> but you cannot say that? >> but i cannot say that. >> and this is not you getting back at your dad who you're very sideways with at this point? >> no, because -- >> he needs that story and you're not going to give it to him. >> no, because it hurts my brothers too for me to say i'm honestly not sure i saw her. but i'm going say what i remember, which is nothing. it's a black hole. it's a traumatizing event. and when kids go through traumatizing events they block things out. and losing my mother was the worst day of my life. >> how are we to understand what's going on with lindsay, christine? because she has told the story that she like her brothers remembers seeing her mom alive but then she backs away from it and says i think -- i can't remember, really. >> i don't know what's in lindsay's head and in her heart. one day she was happy and then everything changed. >> the prosecution still had to explain why the two oldest boys were adamant their mom was alive that morning. parkinson told jurors there was a two-day gap between cory's death and the first police interviews with the kids. ample time, he suggested, for the boys to be influenced by their dad. >> i think the children were confused as to which day. >> do you think he told them the story? >> he had custody of the children from the moment of her discovery until thursday afternoon. so from tuesday till thursday afternoon. i don't know what was said. >> dr. jane turner, the pathologist detective gibson hired to review the case, took the stand and said science is where the truth lies. she concluded the most reasonable explanation for cory's arms appearing to levitate is that cory was dead up to 12 hours before police arrived on the scene. >> i viewed this material and reviewed it with the eye of a scientist and what we know about the development of rigor mortis. >> what would a jury believe, science or the words from two of cory's own sons? cory's brother, a dentist, found himself struggling over the conflicting facts. >> science is my work. i have to believe in that. but i also have to believe in the family at the same time. so i'm completely torn. >> i've never seen a more difficult case, more closely argued. there doesn't seem to be middle ground. >> there's none. >> parkinson urged the jury to focus on the science and one image, cory in her bed, her body in rigor mortis. he said it proved she died hours before curtis claimed. it proved he was lying. it proved, he argued, that curtis killed her. coming up -- the defense gets its turn. and christine is feeling opt mystic. >> i knew in my heart he was coming home. >> until. >> christine came in and they explained to her what was about to happen. >> when "dateline" continues. >> when "dateline" continues and that inspired our perfect diaper to be the softest ever with plant-based materials huggies special delivery don't settle for less. revitalift triple power with pro-retinol plus hyaluronic acid and vitamin c. it visibly reduces wrinkles. firms. and brightens. now that's triple power. revitalift triple power moisturizer from l'oreal. i'm a talking dog. the other issue. oh...i'm scratching like crazy. you've got some allergic itch with skin inflammation. apoquel can work on that itch in as little as 4 hours, whether it's a new or chronic problem. and apoquel's treated over 8 million dogs. nice. and...the talking dog thing? is it bothering you? no...itching like a dog is bothering me. until dogs can speak for themselves, you have to. when allergic itch is a problem, ask for apoquel. apoquel is for the control of itch associated with allergic dermatitis and the control of atopic dermatitis in dogs. do not use apoquel in dogs less than 12 months old or those with serious infections. apoquel may increase the chance of developing serious infections and may cause existing parasitic skin infestations or pre-existing cancers to worsen. do not use in breeding, pregnant, or lactating dogs. most common side effects are vomiting and diarrhea. feeling better? i'm speechless. thanks for the apoquel. aw...that's what friends are for. ask your veterinarian for apoquel next to you, apoquel is a dog's best friend. so we collaborate ♪ ocean spray works with nature every day to farm in a sustainable way >> reporter: the defense had a simple message for jurors. curtis should not be on trial. that's because there was no crime and this was not a murder. it said the state's case was built on faulty science. >> i've stated repeatedly in this matter that there's no physical evidence to prove that he murdered his wife. >> reporter: veteran pathologist dr. george nichols created the office of medical examiner for the state of kentucky back in the 1970s. now, as a defense expert, he told jurors rigor mortis is not an accurate indicator of time of death. and he added, where is the evidence cory fought for her life? there were no signs of struggle and only the cut and abrasion on her lip. >> you will fight until you no longer can. the thought that somehow you could suffocate someone with a pillow and there would be only one dental mark is ludicrous. >> reporter: detective baird testified that when he first arrived on the scene cory's stomach area was still warm. how is that possible, the defense asked, if she had died up to 12 hours earlier? >> so if the body is warm to the touch, my common sense tells me, not science, that this is someone recently deceased. >> absolutely. >> is there an error in that assumption? >> no. >> reporter: as far as the prosecution's contention that curtis killed cory after a heated argument, the couple's oldest son testified he didn't hear anything like that the night before. and he should know, because his room was right next to his parents. it was even connected by an extra door that was usually left slightly opened. >> she was all sick and i was like, "i'll stay home with you" and she wouldn't let me stay home. >> reporter: the two older boys, unlike their sister, stuck to the story they told police. >> did she ever get out of bed. >> yes, i think she did. >> reporter: if jurors believed them, it blew apart the prosecution's timeline that cory was murdered the night before. >> they said the same thing that they had told baird in 2006 and detective gibson in 2014. >> reporter: and the defense had its sights on detective gibson. they claimed in 2013, he was an overeager, newly promoted detective primarily assigned to work crimes against seniors. this was his first murder case. >> he transferred from k9 officer to elder service officer. and around the same time he went to a one-week course on being a lead detective in a homicide case. and he embarked on this investigation that led to my indictment. >> reporter: finally, the defense's medical expert concluded there was only one plausible explanation for cory's death. she had a history of drinking and falling and that caused that abrasion and cut. the bottom line, she was an alcoholic and bulimic suffering from a liver disease, someone who unfortunately died of natural causes. >> she's not a normal 38-year-old woman. she has a significant disease of a major organ that is associated with sudden death and with liver failure. >> reporter: in the end, curtis decided not to take the stand. ten women and two men would decide lovelace's fate. the deliberations went on for two full days. then christine got the call to come back to the courthouse. >> and i knew in my heart he was coming home. >> that was it. you were going to prevail. >> he's coming home. yes. >> reporter: but once she arrived, bailiffs led her to a small law library. >> christine came in. and they explained to her for the first time what was about to happen, that the judge would declare a mistrial. >> curt was sitting across. he said, "i'm not going to be able to come home tonight." and -- and i lost all my air. it was terrible. >> reporter: the jury was hopelessly deadlocked. the vote, six guilty, six not. curtis would face another trial. since he couldn't make bail, he'd remain in jail, unless -- >> a deal? a plea deal? >> they had offered a second-degree murder plea. but i knew it was a decision not only that i had to make, but we had to make as a family. and i didn't know whether i could put them through another year of what we had already gone through. >> reporter: that's when one of curtis's lawyers turned to christine. >> he said this can all end right now if curt agrees to take this deal. he said it would keep him from dying in prison. >> but he'd have to admit his culpability, responsibility in cory's death. that's the condition, right? >> correct. and that he wouldn't have to spend probably any more than 13 years in prison. >> reporter: the two said "no thanks" to the state's offer and geared up for a second trial. but that forced them to face another dire reality. they were totally broke, unable to afford another lawyer. >> what are we going to do? i mean, at that point it -- there didn't appear to be any option. >> this could be a moment for christine to say, i'm out of here. i didn't sign on to be some tammy wynette for this guy, standin' by her man. i'm gone. >> yeah. and who -- who could -- who could blame her if she would have done that? but that's not who she is. >> reporter: it looked as though curtis would have to use a public defender. but christine wouldn't accept that option. she worked her connections and eventually ended up here in chicago. >> she came to our office and told us her story and i remember finding it compelling and certainly worth exploring further. >> reporter: jon loevy is not a criminal lawyer. he's a civil rights attorney by practice who also does pro bono work with the exoneration project. its aim, overturn wrongful convictions. but curtis hadn't been convicted, at least not yet. still, loevy and co-counsel tara thompson decided to take the case. their services would be free. >> the main concern that i had in this case from the outset was really the lack of evidence. this didn't feel like a murder case from the beginning. >> reporter: with a new defense team in place, christine got working on her next goal -- making bail to get her husband out of jail. friends eventually put up the cash. almost two years after his arrest, curtis was released to his wife and sons. >> they greeted me at hancock county jail. and i came home to a dog that i had never met. and for the first time got to be back in my house and back in my home. >> reporter: but it wouldn't be home sweet home for long. while curtis and mrs. lovelace number three waited for the next trial in the alleged murder of mrs. lovelace number one, the judge ruled mrs. lovelace number two could testify against her former husband. and what a story she had to tell. coming up -- erika, out of disguise and on the stand. recounting what she says was a marriage from hell. >> he ripped my shirt. and then he let me go and he tried to grab me again and i kept on trying to fight him off. >> when "dateline" continues. it's time for the biggest sale of the year on the sleep number 360 smart bed. can it help with snoring? i've never heard snoring. exactly. no problem. ...and done save 50% on the sleep number 360 limited edition smart bed. plus, free delivery when you add a base. ends monday. it's totally not the same without you. we miss your let's do this look, the sound of your laugh cry screams, and how you make every day here the best day ever. we can't wait to get you back so we've added temp checks, face coverings, social distancing and extra sanitizing to get the good times going again. it's time to roll out the red carpet and kick open the universal gates. we're finally back... and can't wait until you are too. >> reporter: curtis lovelace was a local celebrity. or at least so infamous, according to his new defense team, that he couldn't get a fair trial in his hometown. a judge agreed. so trial number two was moved from quincy to springfield, illinois. >> all rise. >> reporter: about two hours away. >> the defense is going to come up here and try to portray the defendant as a pillar of the community. that's a facade. >> reporter: david robinson would join ed parkinson for the prosecution. this time cameras were allowed in the courtroom when the trial started in march 2017. >> our houses were 15 feet apart from each other. >> reporter: as in the first trial, neighbors testified they often heard arguing from the lovelace home. this woman lived next door and says she heard shouting almost every day. >> essentially for the entire time that we lived there. so six years. >> as i walked by the house i heard an argument, a loud argument. >> reporter: another neighbor testified she heard cory and curtis really going at it and on a specific date, the night before valentine's day 2006. she happened to be out for a stroll. >> it actually did cause me to pause. i guess i was listening to see if somebody was in distress. >> reporter: the prosecution's theory this go-round on how cory died remained the same. after a heated argument the night before valentine's day, curtis suffocated his wife with a pillow in a fit of rage. he then waited up to twelve hours before police were called. >> come over here and have a seat, please. >> reporter: and once again science would play a leading role in the prosecution's case. but prosecutors had a new witness. a star forensic expert. >> i have also testified before the house of representatives. >> reporter: in a 64-year career, dr. werner spitz has consulted on the jfk and martin luther king assassinations, as well as in other high-profile cases including those of phil spector and casey anthony. >> the appearance of the injury leaves no doubt that this is not a healing wound. >> reporter: in a darkened courtroom, spitz showed photos and talked about that cut inside cory's mouth. curtis had told police his wife had fallen in the days before she died, his explanation for that injury. but this expert said he saw no signs the cut was an old one. >> there's no evidence of healing. so this looks like at the time it was incurred. >> reporter: the abrasion on the outside of the lip and the cut inside indicated to spitz that an object, like a pillow, had been placed on cory's face shortly before she died. >> this is not an accident, this is not a natural death, this is not a suicide. this is a homicide. >> reporter: then came testimony the first jury never got to hear, and it was explosive. for this trial the judge allowed erika gomez, wife number two, to testify. remember when we interviewed her, she wanted to protect her identity. but now on the witness stand she could no longer be shielded by a disguise. >> he violently attacked me. >> reporter: prosecutors called the ex-wife to the stand to try to show that curtis had a history of violence. she recounted one incident she says that happened at home during their marriage. >> he had started probably drink around 9:00 a.m. and we had been arguing about kids. and he came rushing at me and tried to grab me. tried to hurt me. and grabbed my shirt, and he yanked it up really hard, hard enough to injure my knee. he ripped my shirt. and then he let me go, and he tried to grab me again and i kept on trying to fight him off. >> reporter: then erika told the jury another shocking story. she said curtis had been drinking at a party and later that night he blurted out something she found disturbing. >> he's rarely honest except for when he's been drinking. and he was upset about something, and i asked him what he was upset about and he stated something about "she was writhing underneath me" and then he said, "oh, the black cat." >> reporter: as strange as that story sounded, the prosecutor took it to mean this -- curtis wasn't talking about a cat, but about cory's last minutes of life, as she struggled while curtis smothered her. >> erika had a story to tell. there's one particular quote that came out and he says, "i could hear her writhing beneath me." >> yes. that was evidence. she gave -- >> and it sounds as though he's talking about killing his wife at that moment. >> that's what we thought it sounded like, and she testified to that under oath on the stand. "i could feel her writhing beneath me." and that's pretty much what would have happened if suffocation was occurring. >> reporter: the prosecution believed its evidence against curtis was overwhelming. not so fast, said the defense. that's because it had some things up its sleeve. a new piece of last-minute evidence. and what an interesting nugget they had found. coming up -- tough questions for erika. >> someone made that up. someone put those words in there. my signature should be there. anybody can redo this. >> and bombshell testimony. >> did you know when you decided to pursue this investigation that the arms had been moved? >> i did not. >> when "dateline" continues. we told the judge we weren't going to talk. >> curtis lovelace was putting his life in the hands of jon loevy. his new attorney, who took on the defense for free, had more than 20 years of experience, just not in criminal law. >> was this your first murder trial? >> it was. i did a battery criminal defense case right out of law school. but other than that this is basically my first criminal defense case. >> curtis was taking a huge gamble. on the other hand, since he was broke, he didn't have a lot of options p. >> cory died of massive liver disease. >> in his opening remarks, he said the state hadn't presented any evidence of murder for one reason -- there was no murder. >> all the medical evidence in this case is going to prove to you that she died as a result of an acute sudden onset condition brought on by her alcoholism. >> one of the defense's key goals was to debunk the damaging testimony of curtis's ex, erika, that he had violently attacked her and ripped her shirt. >> once we'd finished talking and i'd taken my notes. >> and one of the first defense witnesses was major larry fuller with the illinois national guard. >> i asked her if she wanted to make a sworn statement, a formal sworn statement, which is in writing. she said yes, she would. >> erica had filed a domestic violence charge with the guard since curtis at the time was still active. the major was appointed to look into the charges. he testified as to what erika told him. >> she started backing up. while backing up she fell. then he went down to pick her up. and when he did she said he accidentally struck her in the chin as he was reaching for her shoulder. >> you say the word accidentally. where did you get the word accidentally? >> that was her words. >> she reported curtis accidentally hit her. the major added she initially didn't mention anything about curtis ripping her shirt. after conducting an investigation, he concluded her charges were unfounded. >> there was nothing there to actually lead to a domestic violence finding. >> armed with that information, the defense confronted erika in cross-examination with her own statement. but erika said the document used in court was a fake. >> someone made that up. someone put those words in there. my signature should be there. my signature is not there. this is typed. this isn't written. anybody can redo this. >> then the defense did something unusual. it asked erik about other accusations she's made about curtis, and she had a laundry list of complaints. >> he knows how to forge paperwork. >> he used my social security number to try and steal money out of my account. >> he knows how to get rid of evidence. >> he stole my daughter's bicycle out of the garage. >> at one point, an overwhelmed erika asked for a time-out. >> can i get a break, please? >> but erika wasn't folding. she blurted out another allegation in court against her ex. >> he was poisoning me. there was -- my hair was falling out. there were white lines on my fingers. i was extremely sick. >> erika claimed curtis had tried to poison her and her daughter. she told police he likely put something in their orange juice. but according to the defense, there was a problem with that charge. erika had never sought medical care. >> isn't it true, ma'am, that you never went to a doctor and said, i think i'm being poisoned? >> it wouldn't have mattered. >> when erika left the stand, what do you think the jury made of her? >> i think they were shocked that the state called her. the state thought they could score a point. but when she was subjected to cross-examination she wasn't a credible person. >> there was one other theme loevy wanted to drill into this jury, and it concerned the lead detective. adam gibson he argued had gone pathologist shopping. that is, he consult ud a series of pathologists before finding one to give him the answer he was looking for, that yes, cory's death was in fact a murder. >> if my opinion is not what he wants, he's going to be going looking for somebody else. >> dr. shakotiz was one of the pathologists gibson approached. her opinion, detective gibson wanted her to call this a homicide when that was not her conclusion. >> he had a theory and he was looking somehow to substantiate that theory. >> the original pathologist, the original coroner said there was insufficient evidence to find it a homicide. he got other opinions from other pathologists who also said there's nothing unusual here, you're barking up the wrong tree. >> then came even more damaging accusations against gibson. the defense said it obtained at the last minute important e-mails and other documents it was supposed to have received from the police but never did. potentially exculpatory evidence. >> you understood this e-mail, didn't you? >> it was not something that i thought of, no. >> one e-mail was from a medical expert. he warned detective gibson that if the first pathologist left the cause of death as undetermined that opinion would trump anyone else's and he implied that would give plenty of reasonable doubt to a jury. >> this e-mail should have been turned over. >> i believe so, it should, yes. >> you didn't turn it over. >> i did not. >> the prosecution's case appeared to be teetering. then came another blow. william ballard was one of the first emts on the scene. when he arrived, he wanted to place ekg stickers on cory's body to check for a heartbeat. so he moved her arms. >> her arms were down against her chest. i had to pull them up to check for a pulse, check for any rigor mortis, and to also move her arms up to where i could place my stickers where i'm supposed to place them. >> he moved cory's arms before the police photos were taken. that means her arms were not in the same position as seen in the photographs, the ones that started this entire second investigation. the defense seized on that fact. >> did you know when you decided to pursue this investigation that the arms had been moved? >> i did not. >> is this the first time you're hearing that as you sit here today? >> that the arms had been moved prior to the pictures? yes. >> because basically your investigation took off because you believed that the arms were in a position that was suspicious, right? >> yes. >> mr. loveless, come up and be sworn. >> a final surprise. for the first time the defendant, curtis lovelace, took the stand. he insisted he wasn't a violent man. he never harmed his second wife, erika, and certainly did not kill cory. >> i did love cory. and i know the kids loved her. and it's been difficult. >> the defense wrapped up its questioning with an emotional curtis telling jurors of the enormous toll the two trials had taken on him and his family. >> how long have you and your family been dealing with this process? >> it's been 2 1/2 years. >> whenever you're ready. >> on cross-examination, the prosecution pointed out that a whole bunch of witnesses and facts in this trial would have be to wrong for curtis to be innocent. >> sounds to me like you're saying erika is lying, detective gibson is lying, marty is lying and the science is lying. do you agree? >> it's up to them to decide who is lying. >> after seven days of testimony, curtis lovelace's trial had come to an end. the jury began deliberations. remember, the first panel was deadlocked 6-6. >> let me ask you this, have you reached a unanimous verdict? >> but this go-round the jury was out about two hours before it came back with a decision. >> we the jury find the defendant, curtis t. lovelace, not guilty. >> 11 years after cory's death, 2 1/2 years after curtis's arrest, and two jury trials later, not guilty. >> two-hour verdict, murder trial, what does that tell you? >> that tells me that they were absolutely convinced curt was innocent. >> that's not how prosecutor ed parkinson sees it. >> so does the system work or has a guy gotten away with murder? >> sometimes it works. i think my partner in the prosecution said you're looking at a guy who you think might have gotten away with murder. i feel bad because i think we were right. >> how do you feel right now? >> while the legal consequences for curtis are over, the fallout from cory's death paralyzed the extended family. >> i don't know what to believe anymore. >> lindsay, now a teacher, remains estranged if her father. but she hopes to salvage something despite all that's happened. a relationship with her brothers. >> i just pray every day and hope that one day i'll get a call, a text, a message, an e-mail, something from one of them. >> cory's mom, marty. >> did you come to an opinion about what role, if any, he had in cory's death, curtis? >> those are tucked here. i have kept my mouth shut for a long time. and i'm going to keep it that way. >> curtis says the state offered increasingly attractive plea deals before the start of the second trial. but he turned them all down. he has since filed an 11-count lawsuit against the police and the city of quincy. the suit alleges malicious prosecution and argues curtis's kids were falsely imprisoned during those police interviews. representatives for the police in quincy said they had no comment. but the police are defending their position in court. the lovelace family has moved out of quincy, and curtis has opened a new law office in champaign, illinois. >> we request that we go ahead -- >> and he and christine started an exoneration-type organization. they said they wanted to help others wrongfully accused or convicted. >> christine, what happened to you guys in this whole thing, do you think? >> i don't know what happened to us, dennis. we're still figuring that out. these kinds of things happen across our country every day. and now i think we have an obligation to share this story and to help other people. >> your goal was to leave that courthouse an innocent man. >> yes. i believe looking in the eyes of that jury, seeing, you know, the tears from some of them, how quickly they came back, that they were declaring to me and the world that i'm innocent. >> curtis lovelace, a life interrupted. this sunday, mae this sunday, making the case. >> this is not a partisan moment. this must be an american moment. joe biden frames his campaign against president trump. >> character is on the ballot. compassion is on the ballot. decency, science, democracy, they're all on the ballot. >> with a little help from his friends and his running mate. >> the constant chaos leaves us adrift. the incompetence makes us feel afraid. now it's president trump's turn. >> joe biden is a pu

Transcripts For CSPAN3 The Presidency 20220822

Transcripts For CSPAN3 Jane Turner Censer The Princess Of Albemarle 20220822

>> today we are very pleased to have jane turner with this, who is discussing her new biography. he was well known throughout america as the author of a scandalous novel and is a beauty who had married the air to -- heir to the astor family. years earlier, she had burst from the literary scene with a short story in the atlantic monthly, a highly regarded illustrated monthly. in today's talk, jane will explore how she went from anonymity to a household name. she is a professor emeritus of history at george mason university, especially -- specializing in 19th-century america and southern women. her essays and articles have appeared in numerous journals, including the journal of southern history, the american journal of legal history, southern culture, and the american quarterly. in 2017 and 2018, she served as president of the american historical association. she is the author of several books including "north carolina planters and their children 1800-1860" and "the reconstruction of southern womanhood," and most recently the subject of today's talk, "the princess of albemarle, a melie rives." please welcome jane turner sensor -- censer. jane: thank you for that lovely introduction. it is a pleasure to be in richmond, the city where amelie rives was born almost 160 years ago, and i/o a special thanks to the museum for the invitation, and to the valentine museum, which has allowed me to use so many of the beautiful pictures of rives you will see here today and in my book. in 1891, article referred to her as "the most noted of the younger writers of not only the south but of america." only 28 years old, rives had already been publishing for five years. most readers would have immediately recognized her name. some of -- would have thought of her scandalous bestseller, "the quicker the dead," and others would have pointed to her short stories. others would have anecdotes about her beauty and headstrong behavior. as the daughter of a railroad executive and granddaughter of u.s. senator from virginia, rives had a privileged life. she married two times, one a wealthy new yorker, the second a russian prince, and she also became the prolific author of over 25 books, as well as short stories and essays. her experiences provide insight into a changing world for women, especially southern female authors. her first interactions with editors proved particularly enlightening about how the gendered code of conduct of the day was changing. these interchanges highlighted the difficulties women encountered in literary magazines, even as such journals increasingly sought white southerners' stories as part of sectional reconciliation. for many decades, southern white women had been authoring books -- generally novels focused on courtship and marriage, aimed at a female audience. as the civil war receded, some women attempted to scale more exalted heights of northern publishing. rives' attempts there yield insights into barriers and opportunities. in the 1870's, white southern writers increase their visibility by participating in the local color movement, which featured regional dialects. among southerners, joel chandler harris's uncle remus stories led the way, and mary murphy began publishing her appalachian stories in the 1870's. thomas nelson page popularize the plantation romance set in the antebellum civil war period. americans seemed to have found simpler lives in close relationships on the plantation. magazines, because of their growing readership, presented a new, lucrative pathway into a literary career. "the atlantic" commanded great respect. "harper's monthly" was the best-selling magazine of the day. both faced competition from the illustrated magazine, as well as others like appleton's and lippincott. emily reeves -- amelie rives claimed she had an almost accidental entrance into publishing. three years after her first story appeared, she said, "i wrote that into evenings, sitting up in bed. i wrote it because i like to write and because i had the story in my mind. one day a nice boy of who we were very fond was visiting at the house and found that story in the library. nothing would do but he must take it back to boston when he went." he then submitted it to the atlantic monthly. these basic facts, while correct, indicated nothing of the deliberate campaign that amelie rives had waged to break into print. in fact, before she was "discovered," rives had tried to publish a novel. in 1884, as a 21-year-old, she submitted a manuscript entitled "civilization" to the formidable boston publisher hoffman mifflin . this was a bold move for an unpublished author, and especially a young southern lady. perhaps predictably from an unsolicited manuscript, it was rejected. reeves wrote the publishers, "i thank you very much for having read my story, civilization, and am very sorry to have given you so much trouble for nothing. of course i am disappointed, but still convinced that you know much better than i could the worth of the story." defending her decision to submit her manuscript, amelie told the publishing house, "i never wrote a novel before," and she added that she wanted to aid her close friend moody pleasant, who suffered from a disfiguring cleft palate, relying on the code of ladylike conduct as justification. she ended her letter, "i tell you this in order that you may not think me very presumptuous if i try again." nevertheless, rives found it very difficult to remain sweetly stoic with rejection. when the publisher's representative mentioned grammatical errors in her rives, -- in her novel, rives disclaimed authorship. she said "i must tell you that the young lisman who really wrote "civilization -- the young englishman who really wrote civilization has permitted me to tell you i did not really write it. i do scribble may someday send you something of mine, but i write only very stupid things on the order of essays." this first unsuccessful attempt at publishing apparently led rives to seek alternative pathways. the dreary historians have suggested that the most successful 19th-century novelist relied on sponsorship, a truth that ameli in -- amelie intuitively grasped. she needed a sponsor. difficult for a southern woman, but she had two friends interested in her work who possessed a necessary connection. both were young unmarried men and she resorted to flotation and flattery to peak -- pique their interest. one possible sponsor was already in rives' life. for almost nine months, she had been exchanging letters with virginia author thomas nelson page, a distant cousin 10 years older than she. these letters were not an attempt to win paige's heart, what part of a careful campaign that aimed for literary companionship and sponsorship. the letters indicate a young woman trying to fascinate by alternating between sensuality and intellectuality, neither of which were supposed to be part of the southern belle's repertoire. possibly also viewing page as a literary soulmate, rives hoped for praise, and notice, and that he would bring her writing to national publishers. when thomas nelson page and amelie rives began to correspond, he was practicing law here in richmond. more conservative than she, he also took a more traditional view of a woman's place. they shared common piedmont, virginia ancestors and literary leanings. both were fascinated by the ancient world, loved scottish dialect and english heritage stories. clearly important to rives were links to the literary world. in the spring of 1884, the story that vaulted page to national fame had been accepted by century magazine. rives, in her first reply to page, blended mystery, exoticism, and drama. with seeming frankness, she declared that his letter had been fascinating. when he suggested she was a flirt, she pictured herself as a dangerous siren. "as for flirting, dear cos, you say it is in my nature, and what will you say when i tell you frankly yes? it is there very strongly and i'm afraid very indelibly. what will you say again when i tell you i do not flirt? it is true, quite true," and she boasted she had recently foregone a conquest. as a belle who signaled her general availability, amelie assured page he held a special place in her regard. "do you understand i speak to you as i would too few people, man or woman? and you must not laugh at me," she chided. "you do not know how anxious i am to see your story about marsh chan. i find i am thinking of you through the long night. remember, you told me of it last summer." she claimed to hate modern fiction by henry james, and talked paige's work. "i would rather read something you had written from your heart then even that undeniably beautiful book the portrait of a lady." with sensuous imagery, she predicted page's literary fame. "i am sure you will be one of the famous writers, as i am of the moan of wind down my chimney. that is the most indisputable fact, as you yourself would say. can you see the lilette flames from the fresh oakwood flitting around like little salamanders?" she later consoled page for an unfavorable review by comparing him to shakespeare. the remainder of rives' letter took a common approach. in entertaining page, she showed her skill at various literary genres and alluded to her wide reading. as the letters end, she returns to the theme of attraction. "i wish with all my heart to see you, to know you better, and to love you more, but how is one to behave when i in fact feel you are all the time thinking i am trying to flirt with you and to fascinate not your true friendship, not your honest love, but that berserk which lurks in every newfoundland dog and which i am sure is part and parcel of every man alive." here she combines a knowledge of novelist charles kingsley's book about the warrior ethic among anglo-saxons with a comparison of plus to love -- a difference that page, who preferred women firmly on the pedestal, probably did not wish to consider. when page asked rives in mid march 1984 to tell about herself, she declared an utter lack of self-knowledge. "i fear less of myself than i know of greek, and of that i know only there is a beginning and an end, which to our alpha and omega. the end with me is not yet." using "end" as a segue, she launched into a disquisition on marriage. "they say marriage is the end with women. i hope not. i do not want to be married myself, and yet -- and yet how lonely are the old maids." she then proffered a cameo of her spinster aunt. "my aunt ella reeves is a living warning to me. she is 48. she is very yellow. she wears pale brown stockings that wrinkle, and cloth slippers that are out at the toes. she is very good and unbearably disagreeable. she eats ducks and plays on a melodian for recreation." rives pointedly ended the portrait, "i do not want a husband, but i think a melodia is equally undesirable." rives intentionally raised contradictions. her doctors had warned that writing was affecting her health. "everyone comes to see me. my room is a little court in a big, gilded wicker chair runabout with blue-ribbon's." while being delicate was quite ladylike, rives also proclaimed her vibrancy and emphasized her body in a distinctly unladylike way, celebrating her driving herself in a first carriage ride since her illness. she wrote "the air was like wine and had a really vileness -- v inous effect on me. i shouted like a big boy conscious of his big boydom. the wind blew all my curls straight up on and, and so -- on end, and so happy was i that i forgot to be vain and pull them back into order. -- order." rives took a reference as an opportunity to joke about her own love of bathing. "i am a very diogenes and live in my tub." as if the image of her nude body in a bathtub was not transgressive enough, she closed the paragraph with a width of religious heterodoxy. "the cleanliness being next to godliness, and i'm being near heaven through that, means that any other do persevere through day-to-day." rives, as she advertised her fascination, so this relationship as a chance for intellectual exchange as literary sponsorship. even as her first letters to page showed off her wide reading and ability to write in different dialects and genres, she very slowly pulled him into her world of writing. only in her third letter did she mention her poetry. "i send you some jewels i made a year ago. i am a lazy wench and these being already copied, i send them to you." by the summer of 1884, amelie began her literary aspirations. in july, she confided "i too have written a novel this summer, but i fear not what one would look for in a girl. being made of so muscular an order that even men would have to chew to digested." she then assured page, "do not be thinking that it smacks of immorality. not so, i swear." she revealed a little more. by the spring of 1885, page had begun to court a wealthy woman and his friendship with amelie became merely literary. that fall, after the century magazine accepted his story, page showed some of amelie's works to his editor. she also secured another male friend, william sigourney otis, to help toward publication. will otis was that nice boston boy who showed her story to the editor of atlantic monthly. in 1885, he was a 28-year-old lawyer from a prominent family who had graduated from harvard college and harvard law school. contemporaries considered will a strikingly handsome man, noted for his geniality, wit, and readiness with repartee, athletic and active he was a founding editor of "the harvard lampoon." will otis and amelie rives may even have been engaged. that was the impression she gave in october 1880i've when she told -- 1885 when she told rives "it is all off between will and myself and i feel as we as air." otis scored the first success for rives, who told about it in late october 1885. will took a short story to houghton mifflin, and readers for the atlantic monthly got hold of it. i can't pretend to tell you all the nice things he said. he thinks he is a man and insisted on my coming at once boston. when will told him that would be impossible, he laughed and asked if i were in prison. rives was ecstatic, marveling "just to think the first short story i ever wrote coming out in the atlantic." thomas bailey eldridge was not just a reader. he was editor at the magazine, renowned for its fiction. although his first reaction to rives' story was wildly enthusiastic and he said he wants every scrap i ever wrote. she gratefully gushed to aldri ch, "i will do whatever you think best with regard to it and anything else i ever write." rives had just achieved publication with a story set in 16th century england. here she different from most southern writers, who wrote about the south. rives wrote the story in an era entranced by stories of chivalric heroes. hers was more pointed toward the national rather than a southern audience. while the stories featured romance, the resourcefulness and daring of its heroines foreshadowed rives' later writing. over the next few months, rives pelted aldrich with manuscripts as she sought to make the editor her literary guide. she pledged her loyalty. "you shall have the very first links of my brain and heart, and i will write for no one else in the world if you want me to write for you." the next few stories that rives sent alrich did not please him. at least two were eventually published and show she was writing historical fiction in different locales. getting to worry in december that aldrich merely wanted her to replicate "a brother to dragons," amelie complained "i am going to begin on a sister to dragons, followed by a brother-in-law to dragons, and these will be the progenitor of a race of little nephews, nieces, and grandchildren to dragons, which shall all be sent in time. please forgive me if i have been at all impertinent. i would not be that for the world." despite her exasperation, rives pleaded for aldrich's approval at the same time she begged for editorial advice. she begged him to visit and suddenly indicated her elite jimmy back by describing her home as "one of the very few old southern homesteads which has remained in the same family for 200 years." she excused her unconventional requests on the grounds of gratitude. "i think i want to wait on you a little and fetch things for you, and to know you and to learn the things you like, and to earn your approval and the right ear friendship. -- to your friendship. it isn't too much, is it?" in truth, it seems to have been far too much for the new england editor, who labeled her letters "singular correspondent." irritated by this author, who was not the young man he expected, aldrich found her responses to questions of whether the article should be signed with initials or a nom de plume to be the last straw. even if amelie exulted over her story's acceptance, she received other good news. richard watson gilder, editor at the century, which to publish a story that page had shown him. suddenly amelie was dealing with proxies with prestigious publishers. for a young woman of 22, this was a heady new experience. in ladylike fashion, rives had to use go-betweens to gain acceptance of her writing. yet how far she should go in publicizing her authorship was a problem. although most southern female authors in 1885 published under pen names, amelie first told aldrich "you may also use my name, just as you please. i am perfectly willing to submit everything to your judgment." yet rives responded to page's news about her acceptance by begging him not to reveal her name to the century's editor. "i am beginning to get frightfully shy and alarmed and feel like taking my head in the sand of 20 noms de plume lichen ostrich. i would rather not." the question of whether rives would publish under her own name occurred repeatedly and showed how her ambitions conflicted with proper behavior of southern women. in november, she suggested a pen name. by early december, she asked aldrich just to print the story without any name, and later that month consider using her initials. the entire matter took a bizarre twist in late january 1886. both aldrich and the other editor received letters supposedly from rives that she would publish under her own name. "publish my name, and i do not want you to think it is strange that i have asked you not to publish my name after my short stories and whatever of mine you have." the letters to page said "my father has asked me to publish my name in the injury -- the century." aldrich believed this letter wasn't -- was evidence rives had corresponded with another editor. she called the letter a hope. she said, there are only two people with handwriting identical to mine. one is my sister and one is perhaps the only enemy i have. amelie self righteously asserted "i have had no correspondence with mr. gilder. the verses were sent him by mr. page, my cousin." at the same time, rives sent a distraught note to paige to stop the publication of her name in the century. she said, "i do not wish my name published. i have said so over and over again. i wouldn't have aldrich to think me so childish and doubledealing for anything in the world." later that month, rives declared that the letter page had received was a perfect forgery. was someone forging letters or did rives simply pretend? one allegedly forged letter that survives presents some stylistic differences and appears slightly more rounded in script than most of amelie's. if these letters were fraudulent, the most likely culprit was younger sister gertrude who had similar handwriting and would have known about the acceptance of the story and poems. but perhaps amelie wrote the letters and denied it. her vacillation on the subject of publishing under the name shows awareness that numerous family members and friends would disapprove. indeed, her late grandmother, who had died four years earlier, may have influenced amelie's literary aspirations, as well as her beliefs about how we 80 should appear in public. -- how a lady should. publish. in the 1840's, judith had published a book under a pseudonym "a lady of virginia." grandmother rives, in an unpublished autobiography, also commented on forms of female self presentation and criticize the hoyt in style -- hoyden style and the blue stocking and eccentric. amelie must've understood her provocative letters and expressive conduct fell firmly within her grandmother's definition of a hoyden. her final comment after the alleged perjury fell back on proper behavior. "if you have ever known me, you will believe me when i say that as a lady i am incapable of conduct that is so unladylike." despite these brave words, amelie had already wandered far from the ladylike conduct expected in her grandmother. amelie also showed in these early letters a concern with vendor's relation to publication, her disavowal of her early novel asserted a young englishman had written it. she also had told page she wanted a poem which she that twitch -- she wanted her poem evaluated as if a man wrote it. she understood editors evaluated differently. rives showed significant worry about propriety and purity. in 1884, after admitting to page that she was something of a flirt, she added her wish to be called a good, true woman. a maiden, most excellent, shining white. this is what i would have, even then fame, even then honor. she added, when you know me better, you will know how this is my ambition. apparently tiring of rives' style, aldrige suspended approval of two stories. possibly he believed her overly emotional and hysterical. by the time a brother to dragons appeared in print, listing no author, pseudonym, or initials, aldrich and his new author were no longer in contact. in addition to rives, he also published stories from tennessee and mary murphy and african-american author charles w chesnutt. chestnutt's first story was published a year after "a brother to dragons." it featured uncle julius, an elderly friedman who tell stories of slavery to a white narrator. while thomas nelson page's african-americans pined for the old regime of slavery, uncle julius did not, and introduced whites to a world that involved conger, ghosts -- conjure, ghosts, and cruel owners. aldrich originally assumed the author was a white man. murphy submitted her stories under a male pen name. chestnutt sent in the story under the transom, unannounced and unmediated. after the break with aldrich, rives began to submit stories to richard watson gilder at the century. all went swimmingly that spring of 1886. by mid-march, she was conferring with him over a story, and suggested modifying its language because "i wrote it very quickly, and i always write." that may, amelie visited the editorial offices, where she received "quite a novation" at their headquarters. at that time, the century had accepted one of amelie's stories and was considering another. yet two months later, gilder no longer wanted rives' writing. in july, rives had a novella, "virginia of virginia," rejected by gilder. some believe it is the best of her early writing. it is the story about an ill starred relationship between eight tenant farmer's daughter, virginia, and in englishman who bought a plantation in the war-ravaged state. the people speak in dialect, and the african-americans, while warmhearted, speak in malaprop is him. common whites and the englishman show racism, yet the heroin rises above her impoverished origins to show kindness that illuminates the story. gilder seems to have rejected rives' story because he believed himself a guardian of morality. according to a literary historian, he excluded from his family magazines whatever he thought would offend the mothers of the nation or corrupt their daughters. the headstrong nature of rives' heroine, who is passionately attracted to an upper-class englishman, probably appeared unseemly to gilder. gilder was an active editor who pushed authors to remove passages that offended him. it suggests his objections to the story was to its general outline rather than a few specific points that could be changed. he may also have disdained rives ' heroine, who overcomes her jealousy and finds atonement and redemption. moreover, the white and black southerners appear poor, uneducated, and disheveled -- for from the inhabitants of harmonious plantations as depicted by writers like thomas elton page. possibly coming gilder believed "virginia of virginia" sentimental and immoral. intriguingly enough, this lack of interest came as the century promoted southern authors and southern themes. as i indicated, gilder mentor, published, and publicized thomas elton page. after accepting page's story, gilder worked three years to modify parts he thought might offend northern sensibilities. while closing the century's pages to uncouth white southerners, they were open to page's mythmaking. eventually, gilder realized the unreconstructed nature of page's beliefs. his essays criticized african-american social and political aspirations. the century stopped publishing his work. then, a best-selling author, page no longer needed the century. despite initial problems, rives quickly found a new publisher who tolerated her eccentricities and unconventionality. by early august 1886, she was in contact with the publishers of harper's. the following year, harper's published four of her stories, including "virginia of virginia," and a story which chronicled the life of a virginia farmers daughter who married a wealthy northerner for social position. the 1891 testimonial to rives as "the most noted of the younger writers" came from thomas nelson page himself. elsewhere in that article, page largely slighted white southern female authors and reserve praise to men, particularly joel chandler harris and other authors of dialect stories. page did not even mention mark twain, of a considered to be the greatest 19th century southern writer, or charles chestnutt, or sherwood bonner, a mississippi woman whose novel depicted a romance between an alabama woman and a northern abolitionist. the experiences of amelie rives show the limit of northern publications. they wanted a national literature and were open to white southern women and african-americans, but prefer to read about a beautified old south rather than an impoverished postwar south. gilder helped page become the symbol as well as the voice of southern literature that glorified the slaves south and marginalized those who pictured a south outside that mythological realm. by the time of page's 1981 testimonial, her writing moved far from southern topics. only by birth was she a southern writer. while some of her later stories and novels used virginia locales, none dealt in southern themes. after publishing the first poem under her own name, she always used her own name and publications. over time, she deviated even further from the behavior expected of a southern later -- southern lady. novels contained assertive, passionate, sensual women. she divorced her first husband to pursue another love. she aimed to be a celebrity as well as a novelist. she cheered on a younger generation of writers, including ellen glasgow. as a young lady, connolly reeves wanted to write. as she sought male mentors and sponsors, she portrayed herself as flirtatious but pure, and expressed ladylike difference to their superior -- ladylike de ference. she played on the role of the southern lady to serve her unladylike aspirations. victorious in the 1890's, rives at her desk in 1945 was almost unknown, and her part in the southern literary movement of the late 19th century had been largely forgotten. thank you. [applause] >> what was her educational background? she was born in 1863, grew up near charlottesville. i wonder if she had any formal education. does she refer to any authors that she felt particularly influenced by? jane: she was particularly influenced by her grandfather's library at chapel hill, where she read widely. her first years were spent in mobile, alabama, where her father was an executive for the mobile and ohio railroad. she apparently had tutors and it was quite am unsystematic education. she was largely self educated. she discovered herself. she educated herself. she had tutors and governess's. the higher education that women were beginning to receive. this was the time of the founding of the seven sisters colleges, and when many southern women's colleges were founded in the antebellum period. >> thanks. i am her husband. but i have read this manuscript many times. what do you think were the readers of her works? what was her audience? who was she talking to, do you think? jane: i think disparate -- different parts of her writing spoke to different audiences. there is a real fad in chivalric stories, stories about knights and ladies in the postwar period. "a brother to dragons" and some of her earlier stories written in elizabethan dialect -- that is who they might appeal to. "the quick or the dead" appeal to young men and women because it was a romance pursued with a lot of intensity. there is a wide reading public in these days, and she is publishing in the magazines which are shared among people of all ages, i think, and even among the better off classes among the literate. so she is trying to break out of the domestic novel, the marriage novel that appealed only to women. she is trying to have a wider readership. hard to pin down. >> she was writing when the myth of the lost cause was emerging. was she accepting of that, or did she express suspicion? jane: she generally ignored it. i think the only book of hers that seems to have expressed -- to have accepted some of the lost cause came out in 1914, in which she depicted a plantation with really very high-minded owners. but it is still a postwar plantation. she did not go back to the antebellum period. one of her close friends was a southern writer named julia mcgruder, who grew up in washington, d.c. the greater expressed a much greater sort of distaste for the lost cause. and in one story ridiculed ladies who seemed to belong to something like the united daughters of the confederacy. but rives by and large ignored the lost cause. i think her 19th century african-americans and whites are not stereotypical, but she is quite willing to ridicule ordinary white people and african-americans, to use them for comic effect. >> how did her life conclude? jane: after she divorces her very wealthy first husband, she marries a russian portrait player, prince pierre troubetzkoy. they live in the plantation castle hill. as they are nearing the ends of their careers in the 1920's and 1930's, they are becoming increasingly impoverished. her books are no longer selling. i think he is not able to paint. he dies in 1936. so she has a rather sad last few years after the death of her husband as she is lonely living with her never-married sister at castle hill, which does not have central heating and is falling into disrepair. and the war in europe, given that she had married a russian ancestry portrait painter who had grown up in italy, she was really saddened by world war ii. she saw hitler's and mussolini as harbingers of barbarism and lights going out all over the world. as her light is going out, she is very sad. but i should add for that she actually come in the early 20th century, is a working author, and i think does -- she comes back from drug addiction to make a life for herself with the man she loves in the place that she loved. she loved albemarle county and the piedmont, and she loves castle hill. that was one source of friction with her first husband, who wanted her to travel the world. she wanted to see europe, but then she wanted to go back to castle hill and remain there. 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Transcripts For CSPAN3 Jane Turner Censer The Princess Of Albemarle 20220821

>> today we are very pleased to have jane turner with this, who is discussing her new biography. he was well known throughout america as the author of a scandalous novel and is a beauty who had married the air to -- heir to the astor family. years earlier, she had burst from the literary scene with a short story in the atlantic monthly, a highly regarded illustrated monthly. in today's talk, jane will explore how she went from anonymity to a household name. she is a professor emeritus of history at george mason university, especially -- specializing in 19th-century america and southern women. her essays and articles have appeared in numerous journals, including the journal of southern history, the american journal of legal history, southern culture, and the american quarterly. in 2017 and 2018, she served as president of the american historical association. she is the author of several books including "north carolina planters and their children 1800-1860" and "the reconstruction of southern womanhood," and most recently the subject of today's talk, "the princess of albemarle, a melie rives." please welcome jane turner sensor -- censer. jane: thank you for that lovely introduction. it is a pleasure to be in richmond, the city where amelie rives was born almost 160 years ago, and i/o a special thanks to the museum for the invitation, and to the valentine museum, which has allowed me to use so many of the beautiful pictures of rives you will see here today and in my book. in 1891, article referred to her as "the most noted of the younger writers of not only the south but of america." only 28 years old, rives had already been publishing for five years. most readers would have immediately recognized her name. some of -- would have thought of her scandalous bestseller, "the quicker the dead," and others would have pointed to her short stories. others would have anecdotes about her beauty and headstrong behavior. as the daughter of a railroad executive and granddaughter of u.s. senator from virginia, rives had a privileged life. she married two times, one a wealthy new yorker, the second a russian prince, and she also became the prolific author of over 25 books, as well as short stories and essays. her experiences provide insight into a changing world for women, especially southern female authors. her first interactions with editors proved particularly enlightening about how the gendered code of conduct of the day was changing. these interchanges highlighted the difficulties women encountered in literary magazines, even as such journals increasingly sought white southerners' stories as part of sectional reconciliation. for many decades, southern white women had been authoring books -- generally novels focused on courtship and marriage, aimed at a female audience. as the civil war receded, some women attempted to scale more exalted heights of northern publishing. rives' attempts there yield insights into barriers and opportunities. in the 1870's, white southern writers increase their visibility by participating in the local color movement, which featured regional dialects. among southerners, joel chandler harris's uncle remus stories led the way, and mary murphy began publishing her appalachian stories in the 1870's. thomas nelson page popularize the plantation romance set in the antebellum civil war period. americans seemed to have found simpler lives in close relationships on the plantation. magazines, because of their growing readership, presented a new, lucrative pathway into a literary career. "the atlantic" commanded great respect. "harper's monthly" was the best-selling magazine of the day. both faced competition from the illustrated magazine, as well as others like appleton's and lippincott. emily reeves -- amelie rives claimed she had an almost accidental entrance into publishing. three years after her first story appeared, she said, "i wrote that into evenings, sitting up in bed. i wrote it because i like to write and because i had the story in my mind. one day a nice boy of who we were very fond was visiting at the house and found that story in the library. nothing would do but he must take it back to boston when he went." he then submitted it to the atlantic monthly. these basic facts, while correct, indicated nothing of the deliberate campaign that amelie rives had waged to break into print. in fact, before she was "discovered," rives had tried to publish a novel. in 1884, as a 21-year-old, she submitted a manuscript entitled "civilization" to the formidable boston publisher hoffman mifflin . this was a bold move for an unpublished author, and especially a young southern lady. perhaps predictably from an unsolicited manuscript, it was rejected. reeves wrote the publishers, "i thank you very much for having read my story, civilization, and am very sorry to have given you so much trouble for nothing. of course i am disappointed, but still convinced that you know much better than i could the worth of the story." defending her decision to submit her manuscript, amelie told the publishing house, "i never wrote a novel before," and she added that she wanted to aid her close friend moody pleasant, who suffered from a disfiguring cleft palate, relying on the code of ladylike conduct as justification. she ended her letter, "i tell you this in order that you may not think me very presumptuous if i try again." nevertheless, rives found it very difficult to remain sweetly stoic with rejection. when the publisher's representative mentioned grammatical errors in her rives, -- in her novel, rives disclaimed authorship. she said "i must tell you that the young lisman who really wrote "civilization -- the young englishman who really wrote civilization has permitted me to tell you i did not really write it. i do scribble may someday send you something of mine, but i write only very stupid things on the order of essays." this first unsuccessful attempt at publishing apparently led rives to seek alternative pathways. the dreary historians have suggested that the most successful 19th-century novelist relied on sponsorship, a truth that ameli in -- amelie intuitively grasped. she needed a sponsor. difficult for a southern woman, but she had two friends interested in her work who possessed a necessary connection. both were young unmarried men and she resorted to flotation and flattery to peak -- pique their interest. one possible sponsor was already in rives' life. for almost nine months, she had been exchanging letters with virginia author thomas nelson page, a distant cousin 10 years older than she. these letters were not an attempt to win paige's heart, what part of a careful campaign that aimed for literary companionship and sponsorship. the letters indicate a young woman trying to fascinate by alternating between sensuality and intellectuality, neither of which were supposed to be part of the southern belle's repertoire. possibly also viewing page as a literary soulmate, rives hoped for praise, and notice, and that he would bring her writing to national publishers. when thomas nelson page and amelie rives began to correspond, he was practicing law here in richmond. more conservative than she, he also took a more traditional view of a woman's place. they shared common piedmont, virginia ancestors and literary leanings. both were fascinated by the ancient world, loved scottish dialect and english heritage stories. clearly important to rives were links to the literary world. in the spring of 1884, the story that vaulted page to national fame had been accepted by century magazine. rives, in her first reply to page, blended mystery, exoticism, and drama. with seeming frankness, she declared that his letter had been fascinating. when he suggested she was a flirt, she pictured herself as a dangerous siren. "as for flirting, dear cos, you say it is in my nature, and what will you say when i tell you frankly yes? it is there very strongly and i'm afraid very indelibly. what will you say again when i tell you i do not flirt? it is true, quite true," and she boasted she had recently foregone a conquest. as a belle who signaled her general availability, amelie assured page he held a special place in her regard. "do you understand i speak to you as i would too few people, man or woman? and you must not laugh at me," she chided. "you do not know how anxious i am to see your story about marsh chan. i find i am thinking of you through the long night. remember, you told me of it last summer." she claimed to hate modern fiction by henry james, and talked paige's work. "i would rather read something you had written from your heart then even that undeniably beautiful book the portrait of a lady." with sensuous imagery, she predicted page's literary fame. "i am sure you will be one of the famous writers, as i am of the moan of wind down my chimney. that is the most indisputable fact, as you yourself would say. can you see the lilette flames from the fresh oakwood flitting around like little salamanders?" she later consoled page for an unfavorable review by comparing him to shakespeare. the remainder of rives' letter took a common approach. in entertaining page, she showed her skill at various literary genres and alluded to her wide reading. as the letters end, she returns to the theme of attraction. "i wish with all my heart to see you, to know you better, and to love you more, but how is one to behave when i in fact feel you are all the time thinking i am trying to flirt with you and to fascinate not your true friendship, not your honest love, but that berserk which lurks in every newfoundland dog and which i am sure is part and parcel of every man alive." here she combines a knowledge of novelist charles kingsley's book about the warrior ethic among anglo-saxons with a comparison of plus to love -- a difference that page, who preferred women firmly on the pedestal, probably did not wish to consider. when page asked rives in mid march 1984 to tell about herself, she declared an utter lack of self-knowledge. "i fear less of myself than i know of greek, and of that i know only there is a beginning and an end, which to our alpha and omega. the end with me is not yet." using "end" as a segue, she launched into a disquisition on marriage. "they say marriage is the end with women. i hope not. i do not want to be married myself, and yet -- and yet how lonely are the old maids." she then proffered a cameo of her spinster aunt. "my aunt ella reeves is a living warning to me. she is 48. she is very yellow. she wears pale brown stockings that wrinkle, and cloth slippers that are out at the toes. she is very good and unbearably disagreeable. she eats ducks and plays on a melodian for recreation." rives pointedly ended the portrait, "i do not want a husband, but i think a melodia is equally undesirable." rives intentionally raised contradictions. her doctors had warned that writing was affecting her health. "everyone comes to see me. my room is a little court in a big, gilded wicker chair runabout with blue-ribbon's." while being delicate was quite ladylike, rives also proclaimed her vibrancy and emphasized her body in a distinctly unladylike way, celebrating her driving herself in a first carriage ride since her illness. she wrote "the air was like wine and had a really vileness -- v inous effect on me. i shouted like a big boy conscious of his big boydom. the wind blew all my curls straight up on and, and so -- on end, and so happy was i that i forgot to be vain and pull them back into order. -- order." rives took a reference as an opportunity to joke about her own love of bathing. "i am a very diogenes and live in my tub." as if the image of her nude body in a bathtub was not transgressive enough, she closed the paragraph with a width of religious heterodoxy. "the cleanliness being next to godliness, and i'm being near heaven through that, means that any other do persevere through day-to-day." rives, as she advertised her fascination, so this relationship as a chance for intellectual exchange as literary sponsorship. even as her first letters to page showed off her wide reading and ability to write in different dialects and genres, she very slowly pulled him into her world of writing. only in her third letter did she mention her poetry. "i send you some jewels i made a year ago. i am a lazy wench and these being already copied, i send them to you." by the summer of 1884, amelie began her literary aspirations. in july, she confided "i too have written a novel this summer, but i fear not what one would look for in a girl. being made of so muscular an order that even men would have to chew to digested." she then assured page, "do not be thinking that it smacks of immorality. not so, i swear." she revealed a little more. by the spring of 1885, page had begun to court a wealthy woman and his friendship with amelie became merely literary. that fall, after the century magazine accepted his story, page showed some of amelie's works to his editor. she also secured another male friend, william sigourney otis, to help toward publication. will otis was that nice boston boy who showed her story to the editor of atlantic monthly. in 1885, he was a 28-year-old lawyer from a prominent family who had graduated from harvard college and harvard law school. contemporaries considered will a strikingly handsome man, noted for his geniality, wit, and readiness with repartee, athletic and active he was a founding editor of "the harvard lampoon." will otis and amelie rives may even have been engaged. that was the impression she gave in october 1880i've when she told -- 1885 when she told rives "it is all off between will and myself and i feel as we as air." otis scored the first success for rives, who told about it in late october 1885. will took a short story to houghton mifflin, and readers for the atlantic monthly got hold of it. i can't pretend to tell you all the nice things he said. he thinks he is a man and insisted on my coming at once boston. when will told him that would be impossible, he laughed and asked if i were in prison. rives was ecstatic, marveling "just to think the first short story i ever wrote coming out in the atlantic." thomas bailey eldridge was not just a reader. he was editor at the magazine, renowned for its fiction. although his first reaction to rives' story was wildly enthusiastic and he said he wants every scrap i ever wrote. she gratefully gushed to aldri ch, "i will do whatever you think best with regard to it and anything else i ever write." rives had just achieved publication with a story set in 16th century england. here she different from most southern writers, who wrote about the south. rives wrote the story in an era entranced by stories of chivalric heroes. hers was more pointed toward the national rather than a southern audience. while the stories featured romance, the resourcefulness and daring of its heroines foreshadowed rives' later writing. over the next few months, rives pelted aldrich with manuscripts as she sought to make the editor her literary guide. she pledged her loyalty. "you shall have the very first links of my brain and heart, and i will write for no one else in the world if you want me to write for you." the next few stories that rives sent alrich did not please him. at least two were eventually published and show she was writing historical fiction in different locales. getting to worry in december that aldrich merely wanted her to replicate "a brother to dragons," amelie complained "i am going to begin on a sister to dragons, followed by a brother-in-law to dragons, and these will be the progenitor of a race of little nephews, nieces, and grandchildren to dragons, which shall all be sent in time. please forgive me if i have been at all impertinent. i would not be that for the world." despite her exasperation, rives pleaded for aldrich's approval at the same time she begged for editorial advice. she begged him to visit and suddenly indicated her elite jimmy back by describing her home as "one of the very few old southern homesteads which has remained in the same family for 200 years." she excused her unconventional requests on the grounds of gratitude. "i think i want to wait on you a little and fetch things for you, and to know you and to learn the things you like, and to earn your approval and the right ear friendship. -- to your friendship. it isn't too much, is it?" in truth, it seems to have been far too much for the new england editor, who labeled her letters "singular correspondent." irritated by this author, who was not the young man he expected, aldrich found her responses to questions of whether the article should be signed with initials or a nom de plume to be the last straw. even if amelie exulted over her story's acceptance, she received other good news. richard watson gilder, editor at the century, which to publish a story that page had shown him. suddenly amelie was dealing with proxies with prestigious publishers. for a young woman of 22, this was a heady new experience. in ladylike fashion, rives had to use go-betweens to gain acceptance of her writing. yet how far she should go in publicizing her authorship was a problem. although most southern female authors in 1885 published under pen names, amelie first told aldrich "you may also use my name, just as you please. i am perfectly willing to submit everything to your judgment." yet rives responded to page's news about her acceptance by begging him not to reveal her name to the century's editor. "i am beginning to get frightfully shy and alarmed and feel like taking my head in the sand of 20 noms de plume lichen ostrich. i would rather not." the question of whether rives would publish under her own name occurred repeatedly and showed how her ambitions conflicted with proper behavior of southern women. in november, she suggested a pen name. by early december, she asked aldrich just to print the story without any name, and later that month consider using her initials. the entire matter took a bizarre twist in late january 1886. both aldrich and the other editor received letters supposedly from rives that she would publish under her own name. "publish my name, and i do not want you to think it is strange that i have asked you not to publish my name after my short stories and whatever of mine you have." the letters to page said "my father has asked me to publish my name in the injury -- the century." aldrich believed this letter wasn't -- was evidence rives had corresponded with another editor. she called the letter a hope. she said, there are only two people with handwriting identical to mine. one is my sister and one is perhaps the only enemy i have. amelie self righteously asserted "i have had no correspondence with mr. gilder. the verses were sent him by mr. page, my cousin." at the same time, rives sent a distraught note to paige to stop the publication of her name in the century. she said, "i do not wish my name published. i have said so over and over again. i wouldn't have aldrich to think me so childish and doubledealing for anything in the world." later that month, rives declared that the letter page had received was a perfect forgery. was someone forging letters or did rives simply pretend? one allegedly forged letter that survives presents some stylistic differences and appears slightly more rounded in script than most of amelie's. if these letters were fraudulent, the most likely culprit was younger sister gertrude who had similar handwriting and would have known about the acceptance of the story and poems. but perhaps amelie wrote the letters and denied it. her vacillation on the subject of publishing under the name shows awareness that numerous family members and friends would disapprove. indeed, her late grandmother, who had died four years earlier, may have influenced amelie's literary aspirations, as well as her beliefs about how we 80 should appear in public. -- how a lady should. publish. in the 1840's, judith had published a book under a pseudonym "a lady of virginia." grandmother rives, in an unpublished autobiography, also commented on forms of female self presentation and criticize the hoyt in style -- hoyden style and the blue stocking and eccentric. amelie must've understood her provocative letters and expressive conduct fell firmly within her grandmother's definition of a hoyden. her final comment after the alleged perjury fell back on proper behavior. "if you have ever known me, you will believe me when i say that as a lady i am incapable of conduct that is so unladylike." despite these brave words, amelie had already wandered far from the ladylike conduct expected in her grandmother. amelie also showed in these early letters a concern with vendor's relation to publication, her disavowal of her early novel asserted a young englishman had written it. she also had told page she wanted a poem which she that twitch -- she wanted her poem evaluated as if a man wrote it. she understood editors evaluated differently. rives showed significant worry about propriety and purity. in 1884, after admitting to page that she was something of a flirt, she added her wish to be called a good, true woman. a maiden, most excellent, shining white. this is what i would have, even then fame, even then honor. she added, when you know me better, you will know how this is my ambition. apparently tiring of rives' style, aldrige suspended approval of two stories. possibly he believed her overly emotional and hysterical. by the time a brother to dragons appeared in print, listing no author, pseudonym, or initials, aldrich and his new author were no longer in contact. in addition to rives, he also published stories from tennessee and mary murphy and african-american author charles w chesnutt. chestnutt's first story was published a year after "a brother to dragons." it featured uncle julius, an elderly friedman who tell stories of slavery to a white narrator. while thomas nelson page's african-americans pined for the old regime of slavery, uncle julius did not, and introduced whites to a world that involved conger, ghosts -- conjure, ghosts, and cruel owners. aldrich originally assumed the author was a white man. murphy submitted her stories under a male pen name. chestnutt sent in the story under the transom, unannounced and unmediated. after the break with aldrich, rives began to submit stories to richard watson gilder at the century. all went swimmingly that spring of 1886. by mid-march, she was conferring with him over a story, and suggested modifying its language because "i wrote it very quickly, and i always write." that may, amelie visited the editorial offices, where she received "quite a novation" at their headquarters. at that time, the century had accepted one of amelie's stories and was considering another. yet two months later, gilder no longer wanted rives' writing. in july, rives had a novella, "virginia of virginia," rejected by gilder. some believe it is the best of her early writing. it is the story about an ill starred relationship between eight tenant farmer's daughter, virginia, and in englishman who bought a plantation in the war-ravaged state. the people speak in dialect, and the african-americans, while warmhearted, speak in malaprop is him. common whites and the englishman show racism, yet the heroin rises above her impoverished origins to show kindness that illuminates the story. gilder seems to have rejected rives' story because he believed himself a guardian of morality. according to a literary historian, he excluded from his family magazines whatever he thought would offend the mothers of the nation or corrupt their daughters. the headstrong nature of rives' heroine, who is passionately attracted to an upper-class englishman, probably appeared unseemly to gilder. gilder was an active editor who pushed authors to remove passages that offended him. it suggests his objections to the story was to its general outline rather than a few specific points that could be changed. he may also have disdained rives ' heroine, who overcomes her jealousy and finds atonement and redemption. moreover, the white and black southerners appear poor, uneducated, and disheveled -- for from the inhabitants of harmonious plantations as depicted by writers like thomas elton page. possibly coming gilder believed "virginia of virginia" sentimental and immoral. intriguingly enough, this lack of interest came as the century promoted southern authors and southern themes. as i indicated, gilder mentor, published, and publicized thomas elton page. after accepting page's story, gilder worked three years to modify parts he thought might offend northern sensibilities. while closing the century's pages to uncouth white southerners, they were open to page's mythmaking. eventually, gilder realized the unreconstructed nature of page's beliefs. his essays criticized african-american social and political aspirations. the century stopped publishing his work. then, a best-selling author, page no longer needed the century. despite initial problems, rives quickly found a new publisher who tolerated her eccentricities and unconventionality. by early august 1886, she was in contact with the publishers of harper's. the following year, harper's published four of her stories, including "virginia of virginia," and a story which chronicled the life of a virginia farmers daughter who married a wealthy northerner for social position. the 1891 testimonial to rives as "the most noted of the younger writers" came from thomas nelson page himself. elsewhere in that article, page largely slighted white southern female authors and reserve praise to men, particularly joel chandler harris and other authors of dialect stories. page did not even mention mark twain, of a considered to be the greatest 19th century southern writer, or charles chestnutt, or sherwood bonner, a mississippi woman whose novel depicted a romance between an alabama woman and a northern abolitionist. the experiences of amelie rives show the limit of northern publications. they wanted a national literature and were open to white southern women and african-americans, but prefer to read about a beautified old south rather than an impoverished postwar south. gilder helped page become the symbol as well as the voice of southern literature that glorified the slaves south and marginalized those who pictured a south outside that mythological realm. by the time of page's 1981 testimonial, her writing moved far from southern topics. only by birth was she a southern writer. while some of her later stories and novels used virginia locales, none dealt in southern themes. after publishing the first poem under her own name, she always used her own name and publications. over time, she deviated even further from the behavior expected of a southern later -- southern lady. novels contained assertive, passionate, sensual women. she divorced her first husband to pursue another love. she aimed to be a celebrity as well as a novelist. she cheered on a younger generation of writers, including ellen glasgow. as a young lady, connolly reeves wanted to write. as she sought male mentors and sponsors, she portrayed herself as flirtatious but pure, and expressed ladylike difference to their superior -- ladylike de ference. she played on the role of the southern lady to serve her unladylike aspirations. victorious in the 1890's, rives at her desk in 1945 was almost unknown, and her part in the southern literary movement of the late 19th century had been largely forgotten. thank you. [applause] >> what was her educational background? she was born in 1863, grew up near charlottesville. i wonder if she had any formal education. does she refer to any authors that she felt particularly influenced by? jane: she was particularly influenced by her grandfather's library at chapel hill, where she read widely. her first years were spent in mobile, alabama, where her father was an executive for the mobile and ohio railroad. she apparently had tutors and it was quite am unsystematic education. she was largely self educated. she discovered herself. she educated herself. she had tutors and governess's. the higher education that women were beginning to receive. this was the time of the founding of the seven sisters colleges, and when many southern women's colleges were founded in the antebellum period. >> thanks. i am her husband. but i have read this manuscript many times. what do you think were the readers of her works? what was her audience? who was she talking to, do you think? jane: i think disparate -- different parts of her writing spoke to different audiences. there is a real fad in chivalric stories, stories about knights and ladies in the postwar period. "a brother to dragons" and some of her earlier stories written in elizabethan dialect -- that is who they might appeal to. "the quick or the dead" appeal to young men and women because it was a romance pursued with a lot of intensity. there is a wide reading public in these days, and she is publishing in the magazines which are shared among people of all ages, i think, and even among the better off classes among the literate. so she is trying to break out of the domestic novel, the marriage novel that appealed only to women. she is trying to have a wider readership. hard to pin down. >> she was writing when the myth of the lost cause was emerging. was she accepting of that, or did she express suspicion? jane: she generally ignored it. i think the only book of hers that seems to have expressed -- to have accepted some of the lost cause came out in 1914, in which she depicted a plantation with really very high-minded owners. but it is still a postwar plantation. she did not go back to the antebellum period. one of her close friends was a southern writer named julia mcgruder, who grew up in washington, d.c. the greater expressed a much greater sort of distaste for the lost cause. and in one story ridiculed ladies who seemed to belong to something like the united daughters of the confederacy. but rives by and large ignored the lost cause. i think her 19th century african-americans and whites are not stereotypical, but she is quite willing to ridicule ordinary white people and african-americans, to use them for comic effect. >> how did her life conclude? jane: after she divorces her very wealthy first husband, she marries a russian portrait player, prince pierre troubetzkoy. they live in the plantation castle hill. as they are nearing the ends of their careers in the 1920's and 1930's, they are becoming increasingly impoverished. her books are no longer selling. i think he is not able to paint. he dies in 1936. so she has a rather sad last few years after the death of her husband as she is lonely living with her never-married sister at castle hill, which does not have central heating and is falling into disrepair. and the war in europe, given that she had married a russian ancestry portrait painter who had grown up in italy, she was really saddened by world war ii. she saw hitler's and mussolini as harbingers of barbarism and lights going out all over the world. as her light is going out, she is very sad. but i should add for that she actually come in the early 20th century, is a working author, and i think does -- she comes back from drug addiction to make a life for herself with the man she loves in the place that she loved. she loved albemarle county and the piedmont, and she loves castle hill. that was one source of friction with her first husband, who wanted her to travel the world. she wanted to see europe, but then she wanted to go back to castle hill and remain there. [a >> discovering the taping system, was it lucky or inevitable, is this lecture. the whole story of the nixon tapes has been only partially told, taking years to gather and find out what happened. since it is one of the most important factors in the watergate story, it's important to get that history straight. and we are going to try to do that in a very summary fashion. i'd like to remind you that

Transcripts For CSPAN2 The Presidency 20220814

Transcripts For CSPAN2 Jane Turner Censer The Princess Of Albemarle 20220814

illustrated monthly. in today's talk, jane will explore how she went from anonymity to a household name. she is a professor emeritus of history at george mason university, especially -- specializing in 19th-century america and southern women. her essays and articles have appeared in numerous journals, including the journal of southern history, the american journal of legal history, southern culture, and the american quarterly. in 2017 and 2018, she served as president of the american historical association. she is the author of several books including "north carolina planters and their children 1800-1860" and "the reconstruction of southern womanhood," and most recently the subject of today's talk, "the princess of albemarle, a melie rives." please welcome jane turner sensor -- censer. jane: thank you for that lovely introduction. it is a pleasure to be in richmond, the city where amelie rives was born almost 160 years ago, and i/o a special thanks to the museum for the invitation, and to the valentine museum, which has allowed me to use so many of the beautiful pictures of rives you will see here today and in my book. in 1891, article referred to her as "the most noted of the younger writers of not only the south but of america." only 28 years old, rives had already been publishing for five years. most readers would have immediately recognized her name. some of -- would have thought of her scandalous bestseller, "the quicker the dead," and others would have pointed to her short stories. others would have anecdotes about her beauty and headstrong behavior. as the daughter of a railroad executive and granddaughter of u.s. senator from virginia, rives had a privileged life. she married two times, one a wealthy new yorker, the second a russian prince, and she also became the prolific author of over 25 books, as well as short stories and essays. her experiences provide insight into a changing world for women, especially southern female authors. her first interactions with editors proved particularly enlightening about how the gendered code of conduct of the day was changing. these interchanges highlighted the difficulties women encountered in literary magazines, even as such journals increasingly sought white southerners' stories as part of sectional reconciliation. for many decades, southern white women had been authoring books -- generally novels focused on courtship and marriage, aimed at a female audience. as the civil war receded, some women attempted to scale more exalted heights of northern publishing. rives' attempts there yield insights into barriers and opportunities. in the 1870's, white southern writers increase their visibility by participating in the local color movement, which featured regional dialects. among southerners, joel chandler harris's uncle remus stories led the way, and mary murphy began publishing her appalachian stories in the 1870's. thomas nelson page popularize the plantation romance set in the antebellum civil war period. americans seemed to have found simpler lives in close relationships on the plantation. magazines, because of their growing readership, presented a new, lucrative pathway into a literary career. "the atlantic" commanded great respect. "harper's monthly" was the best-selling magazine of the day. both faced competition from the illustrated magazine, as well as others like appleton's and lippincott. emily reeves -- amelie rives claimed she had an almost accidental entrance into publishing. three years after her first story appeared, she said, "i wrote that into evenings, sitting up in bed. i wrote it because i like to write and because i had the story in my mind. one day a nice boy of who we were very fond was visiting at the house and found that story in the library. nothing would do but he must take it back to boston when he went." he then submitted it to the atlantic monthly. these basic facts, while correct, indicated nothing of the deliberate campaign that amelie rives had waged to break into print. in fact, before she was "discovered," rives had tried to publish a novel. in 1884, as a 21-year-old, she submitted a manuscript entitled "civilization" to the formidable boston publisher hoffman mifflin . this was a bold move for an unpublished author, and especially a young southern lady. perhaps predictably from an unsolicited manuscript, it was rejected. reeves wrote the publishers, "i thank you very much for having read my story, civilization, and am very sorry to have given you so much trouble for nothing. of course i am disappointed, but still convinced that you know much better than i could the worth of the story." defending her decision to submit her manuscript, amelie told the publishing house, "i never wrote a novel before," and she added that she wanted to aid her close friend moody pleasant, who suffered from a disfiguring cleft palate, relying on the code of ladylike conduct as justification. she ended her letter, "i tell you this in order that you may not think me very presumptuous if i try again." nevertheless, rives found it very difficult to remain sweetly stoic with rejection. when the publisher's representative mentioned grammatical errors in her rives, -- in her novel, rives disclaimed authorship. she said "i must tell you that the young lisman who really wrote "civilization -- the young englishman who really wrote civilization has permitted me to tell you i did not really write it. i do scribble may someday send you something of mine, but i write only very stupid things on the order of essays." this first unsuccessful attempt at publishing apparently led rives to seek alternative pathways. the dreary historians have suggested that the most successful 19th-century novelist relied on sponsorship, a truth that ameli in -- amelie intuitively grasped. she needed a sponsor. difficult for a southern woman, but she had two friends interested in her work who possessed a necessary connection. both were young unmarried men and she resorted to flotation and flattery to peak -- pique their interest. one possible sponsor was already in rives' life. for almost nine months, she had been exchanging letters with virginia author thomas nelson page, a distant cousin 10 years older than she. these letters were not an attempt to win paige's heart, what part of a careful campaign that aimed for literary companionship and sponsorship. the letters indicate a young woman trying to fascinate by alternating between sensuality and intellectuality, neither of which were supposed to be part of the southern belle's repertoire. possibly also viewing page as a literary soulmate, rives hoped for praise, and notice, and that he would bring her writing to national publishers. when thomas nelson page and amelie rives began to correspond, he was practicing law here in richmond. more conservative than she, he also took a more traditional view of a woman's place. they shared common piedmont, virginia ancestors and literary leanings. both were fascinated by the ancient world, loved scottish dialect and english heritage stories. clearly important to rives were links to the literary world. in the spring of 1884, the story that vaulted page to national fame had been accepted by century magazine. rives, in her first reply to page, blended mystery, exoticism, and drama. with seeming frankness, she declared that his letter had been fascinating. when he suggested she was a flirt, she pictured herself as a dangerous siren. "as for flirting, dear cos, you say it is in my nature, and what will you say when i tell you frankly yes? it is there very strongly and i'm afraid very indelibly. what will you say again when i tell you i do not flirt? it is true, quite true," and she boasted she had recently foregone a conquest. as a belle who signaled her general availability, amelie assured page he held a special place in her regard. "do you understand i speak to you as i would too few people, man or woman? and you must not laugh at me," she chided. "you do not know how anxious i am to see your story about marsh chan. i find i am thinking of you through the long night. remember, you told me of it last summer." she claimed to hate modern fiction by henry james, and talked paige's work. "i would rather read something you had written from your heart then even that undeniably beautiful book the portrait of a lady." with sensuous imagery, she predicted page's literary fame. "i am sure you will be one of the famous writers, as i am of the moan of wind down my chimney. that is the most indisputable fact, as you yourself would say. can you see the lilette flames from the fresh oakwood flitting around like little salamanders?" she later consoled page for an unfavorable review by comparing him to shakespeare. the remainder of rives' letter took a common approach. in entertaining page, she showed her skill at various literary genres and alluded to her wide reading. as the letters end, she returns to the theme of attraction. "i wish with all my heart to see you, to know you better, and to love you more, but how is one to behave when i in fact feel you are all the time thinking i am trying to flirt with you and to fascinate not your true friendship, not your honest love, but that berserk which lurks in every newfoundland dog and which i am sure is part and parcel of every man alive." here she combines a knowledge of novelist charles kingsley's book about the warrior ethic among anglo-saxons with a comparison of plus to love -- a difference that page, who preferred women firmly on the pedestal, probably did not wish to consider. when page asked rives in mid march 1984 to tell about herself, she declared an utter lack of self-knowledge. "i fear less of myself than i know of greek, and of that i know only there is a beginning and an end, which to our alpha and omega. the end with me is not yet." using "end" as a segue, she launched into a disquisition on marriage. "they say marriage is the end with women. i hope not. i do not want to be married myself, and yet -- and yet how lonely are the old maids." she then proffered a cameo of her spinster aunt. "my aunt ella reeves is a living warning to me. she is 48. she is very yellow. she wears pale brown stockings that wrinkle, and cloth slippers that are out at the toes. she is very good and unbearably disagreeable. she eats ducks and plays on a melodian for recreation." rives pointedly ended the portrait, "i do not want a husband, but i think a melodia is equally undesirable." rives intentionally raised contradictions. her doctors had warned that writing was affecting her health. "everyone comes to see me. my room is a little court in a big, gilded wicker chair runabout with blue-ribbon's." while being delicate was quite ladylike, rives also proclaimed her vibrancy and emphasized her body in a distinctly unladylike way, celebrating her driving herself in a first carriage ride since her illness. she wrote "the air was like wine and had a really vileness -- v inous effect on me. i shouted like a big boy conscious of his big boydom. the wind blew all my curls straight up on and, and so -- on end, and so happy was i that i forgot to be vain and pull them back into order. -- order." rives took a reference as an opportunity to joke about her own love of bathing. "i am a very diogenes and live in my tub." as if the image of her nude body in a bathtub was not transgressive enough, she closed the paragraph with a width of religious heterodoxy. "the cleanliness being next to godliness, and i'm being near heaven through that, means that any other do persevere through day-to-day." rives, as she advertised her fascination, so this relationship as a chance for intellectual exchange as literary sponsorship. even as her first letters to page showed off her wide reading and ability to write in different dialects and genres, she very slowly pulled him into her world of writing. only in her third letter did she mention her poetry. "i send you some jewels i made a year ago. i am a lazy wench and these being already copied, i send them to you." by the summer of 1884, amelie began her literary aspirations. in july, she confided "i too have written a novel this summer, but i fear not what one would look for in a girl. being made of so muscular an order that even men would have to chew to digested." she then assured page, "do not be thinking that it smacks of immorality. not so, i swear." she revealed a little more. by the spring of 1885, page had begun to court a wealthy woman and his friendship with amelie became merely literary. that fall, after the century magazine accepted his story, page showed some of amelie's works to his editor. she also secured another male friend, william sigourney otis, to help toward publication. will otis was that nice boston boy who showed her story to the editor of atlantic monthly. in 1885, he was a 28-year-old lawyer from a prominent family who had graduated from harvard college and harvard law school. contemporaries considered will a strikingly handsome man, noted for his geniality, wit, and readiness with repartee, athletic and active he was a founding editor of "the harvard lampoon." will otis and amelie rives may even have been engaged. that was the impression she gave in october 1880i've when she told -- 1885 when she told rives "it is all off between will and myself and i feel as we as air." otis scored the first success for rives, who told about it in late october 1885. will took a short story to houghton mifflin, and readers for the atlantic monthly got hold of it. i can't pretend to tell you all the nice things he said. he thinks he is a man and insisted on my coming at once boston. when will told him that would be impossible, he laughed and asked if i were in prison. rives was ecstatic, marveling "just to think the first short story i ever wrote coming out in the atlantic." thomas bailey eldridge was not just a reader. he was editor at the magazine, renowned for its fiction. although his first reaction to rives' story was wildly enthusiastic and he said he wants every scrap i ever wrote. she gratefully gushed to aldri ch, "i will do whatever you think best with regard to it and anything else i ever write." rives had just achieved publication with a story set in 16th century england. here she different from most southern writers, who wrote about the south. rives wrote the story in an era entranced by stories of chivalric heroes. hers was more pointed toward the national rather than a southern audience. while the stories featured romance, the resourcefulness and daring of its heroines foreshadowed rives' later writing. over the next few months, rives pelted aldrich with manuscripts as she sought to make the editor her literary guide. she pledged her loyalty. "you shall have the very first links of my brain and heart, and i will write for no one else in the world if you want me to write for you." the next few stories that rives sent alrich did not please him. at least two were eventually published and show she was writing historical fiction in different locales. getting to worry in december that aldrich merely wanted her to replicate "a brother to dragons," amelie complained "i am going to begin on a sister to dragons, followed by a brother-in-law to dragons, and these will be the progenitor of a race of little nephews, nieces, and grandchildren to dragons, which shall all be sent in time. please forgive me if i have been at all impertinent. i would not be that for the world." despite her exasperation, rives pleaded for aldrich's approval at the same time she begged for editorial advice. she begged him to visit and suddenly indicated her elite jimmy back by describing her home as "one of the very few old southern homesteads which has remained in the same family for 200 years." she excused her unconventional requests on the grounds of gratitude. "i think i want to wait on you a little and fetch things for you, and to know you and to learn the things you like, and to earn your approval and the right ear friendship. -- to your friendship. it isn't too much, is it?" in truth, it seems to have been far too much for the new england editor, who labeled her letters "singular correspondent." irritated by this author, who was not the young man he expected, aldrich found her responses to questions of whether the article should be signed with initials or a nom de plume to be the last straw. even if amelie exulted over her story's acceptance, she received other good news. richard watson gilder, editor at the century, which to publish a story that page had shown him. suddenly amelie was dealing with proxies with prestigious publishers. for a young woman of 22, this was a heady new experience. in ladylike fashion, rives had to use go-betweens to gain acceptance of her writing. yet how far she should go in publicizing her authorship was a problem. although most southern female authors in 1885 published under pen names, amelie first told aldrich "you may also use my name, just as you please. i am perfectly willing to submit everything to your judgment." yet rives responded to page's news about her acceptance by begging him not to reveal her name to the century's editor. "i am beginning to get frightfully shy and alarmed and feel like taking my head in the sand of 20 noms de plume lichen ostrich. i would rather not." the question of whether rives would publish under her own name occurred repeatedly and showed how her ambitions conflicted with proper behavior of southern women. in november, she suggested a pen name. by early december, she asked aldrich just to print the story without any name, and later that month consider using her initials. the entire matter took a bizarre twist in late january 1886. both aldrich and the other editor received letters supposedly from rives that she would publish under her own name. "publish my name, and i do not want you to think it is strange that i have asked you not to publish my name after my short stories and whatever of mine you have." the letters to page said "my father has asked me to publish my name in the injury -- the century." aldrich believed this letter wasn't -- was evidence rives had corresponded with another editor. she called the letter a hope. she said, there are only two people with handwriting identical to mine. one is my sister and one is perhaps the only enemy i have. amelie self righteously asserted "i have had no correspondence with mr. gilder. the verses were sent him by mr. page, my cousin." at the same time, rives sent a distraught note to paige to stop the publication of her name in the century. she said, "i do not wish my name published. i have said so over and over again. i wouldn't have aldrich to think me so childish and doubledealing for anything in the world." later that month, rives declared that the letter page had received was a perfect forgery. was someone forging letters or did rives simply pretend? one allegedly forged letter that survives presents some stylistic differences and appears slightly more rounded in script than most of amelie's. if these letters were fraudulent, the most likely culprit was younger sister gertrude who had similar handwriting and would have known about the acceptance of the story and poems. but perhaps amelie wrote the letters and denied it. her vacillation on the subject of publishing under the name shows awareness that numerous family members and friends would disapprove. indeed, her late grandmother, who had died four years earlier, may have influenced amelie's literary aspirations, as well as her beliefs about how we 80 should appear in public. -- how a lady should. publish. in the 1840's, judith had published a book under a pseudonym "a lady of virginia." grandmother rives, in an unpublished autobiography, also commented on forms of female self presentation and criticize the hoyt in style -- hoyden style and the blue stocking and eccentric. amelie must've understood her provocative letters and expressive conduct fell firmly within her grandmother's definition of a hoyden. her final comment after the alleged perjury fell back on proper behavior. "if you have ever known me, you will believe me when i say that as a lady i am incapable of conduct that is so unladylike." despite these brave words, amelie had already wandered far from the ladylike conduct expected in her grandmother. amelie also showed in these early letters a concern with vendor's relation to publication, her disavowal of her early novel asserted a young englishman had written it. she also had told page she wanted a poem which she that twitch -- she wanted her poem evaluated as if a man wrote it. she understood editors evaluated differently. rives showed significant worry about propriety and purity. in 1884, after admitting to page that she was something of a flirt, she added her wish to be called a good, true woman. a maiden, most excellent, shining white. this is what i would have, even then fame, even then honor. she added, when you know me better, you will know how this is my ambition. apparently tiring of rives' style, aldrige suspended approval of two stories. possibly he believed her overly emotional and hysterical. by the time a brother to dragons appeared in print, listing no author, pseudonym, or initials, aldrich and his new author were no longer in contact. in addition to rives, he also published stories from tennessee and mary murphy and african-american author charles w chesnutt. chestnutt's first story was published a year after "a brother to dragons." it featured uncle julius, an elderly friedman who tell stories of slavery to a white narrator. while thomas nelson page's african-americans pined for the old regime of slavery, uncle julius did not, and introduced whites to a world that involved conger, ghosts -- conjure, ghosts, and cruel owners. aldrich originally assumed the author was a white man. murphy submitted her stories under a male pen name. chestnutt sent in the story under the transom, unannounced and unmediated. after the break with aldrich, rives began to submit stories to richard watson gilder at the century. all went swimmingly that spring of 1886. by mid-march, she was conferring with him over a story, and suggested modifying its language because "i wrote it very quickly, and i always write." that may, amelie visited the editorial offices, where she received "quite a novation" at their headquarters. at that time, the century had accepted one of amelie's stories and was considering another. yet two months later, gilder no longer wanted rives' writing. in july, rives had a novella, "virginia of virginia," rejected by gilder. some believe it is the best of her early writing. it is the story about an ill starred relationship between eight tenant farmer's daughter, virginia, and in englishman who bought a plantation in the war-ravaged state. the people speak in dialect, and the african-americans, while warmhearted, speak in malaprop is him. common whites and the englishman show racism, yet the heroin rises above her impoverished origins to show kindness that illuminates the story. gilder seems to have rejected rives' story because he believed himself a guardian of morality. according to a literary historian, he excluded from his family magazines whatever he thought would offend the mothers of the nation or corrupt their daughters. the headstrong nature of rives' heroine, who is passionately attracted to an upper-class englishman, probably appeared unseemly to gilder. gilder was an active editor who pushed authors to remove passages that offended him. it suggests his objections to the story was to its general outline rather than a few specific points that could be changed. he may also have disdained rives ' heroine, who overcomes her jealousy and finds atonement and redemption. moreover, the white and black southerners appear poor, uneducated, and disheveled -- for from the inhabitants of harmonious plantations as depicted by writers like thomas elton page. possibly coming gilder believed "virginia of virginia" sentimental and immoral. intriguingly enough, this lack of interest came as the century promoted southern authors and southern themes. as i indicated, gilder mentor, published, and publicized thomas elton page. after accepting page's story, gilder worked three years to modify parts he thought might offend northern sensibilities. while closing the century's pages to uncouth white southerners, they were open to page's mythmaking. eventually, gilder realized the unreconstructed nature of page's beliefs. his essays criticized african-american social and political aspirations. the century stopped publishing his work. then, a best-selling author, page no longer needed the century. despite initial problems, rives quickly found a new publisher who tolerated her eccentricities and unconventionality. by early august 1886, she was in contact with the publishers of harper's. the following year, harper's published four of her stories, including "virginia of virginia," and a story which chronicled the life of a virginia farmers daughter who married a wealthy northerner for social position. the 1891 testimonial to rives as "the most noted of the younger writers" came from thomas nelson page himself. elsewhere in that article, page largely slighted white southern female authors and reserve praise to men, particularly joel chandler harris and other authors of dialect stories. page did not even mention mark twain, of a considered to be the greatest 19th century southern writer, or charles chestnutt, or sherwood bonner, a mississippi woman whose novel depicted a romance between an alabama woman and a northern abolitionist. the experiences of amelie rives show the limit of northern publications. they wanted a national literature and were open to white southern women and african-americans, but prefer to read about a beautified old south rather than an impoverished postwar south. gilder helped page become the symbol as well as the voice of southern literature that glorified the slaves south and marginalized those who pictured a south outside that mythological realm. by the time of page's 1981 testimonial, her writing moved far from southern topics. only by birth was she a southern writer. while some of her later stories and novels used virginia locales, none dealt in southern themes. after publishing the first poem under her own name, she always used her own name and publications. over time, she deviated even further from the behavior expected of a southern later -- southern lady. novels contained assertive, passionate, sensual women. she divorced her first husband to pursue another love. she aimed to be a celebrity as well as a novelist. she cheered on a younger generation of writers, including ellen glasgow. as a young lady, connolly reeves wanted to write. as she sought male mentors and sponsors, she portrayed herself as flirtatious but pure, and expressed ladylike difference to their superior -- ladylike de ference. she played on the role of the southern lady to serve her unladylike aspirations. victorious in the 1890's, rives at her desk in 1945 was almost unknown, and her part in the southern literary movement of the late 19th century had been largely forgotten. thank you. [applause] >> what was her educational background? she was born in 1863, grew up near charlottesville. i wonder if she had any formal education. does she refer to any authors that she felt particularly influenced by? jane: she was particularly influenced by her grandfather's library at chapel hill, where she read widely. her first years were spent in mobile, alabama, where her father was an executive for the mobile and ohio railroad. she apparently had tutors and it was quite am unsystematic education. she was largely self educated. she discovered herself. she educated herself. she had tutors and governess's. the higher education that women were beginning to receive. this was the time of the founding of the seven sisters colleges, and when many southern women's colleges were founded in the antebellum period. >> thanks. i am her husband. but i have read this manuscript many times. what do you think were the readers of her works? what was her audience? who was she talking to, do you think? jane: i think disparate -- different parts of her writing spoke to different audiences. there is a real fad in chivalric stories, stories about knights and ladies in the postwar period. "a brother to dragons" and some of her earlier stories written in elizabethan dialect -- that is who they might appeal to. "the quick or the dead" appeal to young men and women because it was a romance pursued with a lot of intensity. there is a wide reading public in these days, and she is publishing in the magazines which are shared among people of all ages, i think, and even among the better off classes among the literate. so she is trying to break out of the domestic novel, the marriage novel that appealed only to women. she is trying to have a wider readership. hard to pin down. >> she was writing when the myth of the lost cause was emerging. was she accepting of that, or did she express suspicion? jane: she generally ignored it. i think the only book of hers that seems to have expressed -- to have accepted some of the lost cause came out in 1914, in which she depicted a plantation with really very high-minded owners. but it is still a postwar plantation. she did not go back to the antebellum period. one of her close friends was a southern writer named julia mcgruder, who grew up in washington, d.c. the greater expressed a much greater sort of distaste for the lost cause. and in one story ridiculed ladies who seemed to belong to something like the united daughters of the confederacy. but rives by and large ignored the lost cause. i think her 19th century african-americans and whites are not stereotypical, but she is quite willing to ridicule ordinary white people and african-americans, to use them for comic effect. >> how did her life conclude? jane: after she divorces her very wealthy first husband, she marries a russian portrait player, prince pierre troubetzkoy. they live in the plantation castle hill. as they are nearing the ends of their careers in the 1920's and 1930's, they are becoming increasingly impoverished. her books are no longer selling. i think he is not able to paint. he dies in 1936. so she has a rather sad last few years after the death of her husband as she is lonely living with her never-married sister at castle hill, which does not have central heating and is falling into disrepair. and the war in europe, given that she had married a russian ancestry portrait painter who had grown up in italy, she was really saddened by world war ii. she saw hitler's and mussolini as harbingers of barbarism and lights going out all over the world. as her light is going out, she is very sad. but i should add for that she actually come in the early 20th century, is a working author, and i think does -- she comes back from drug addiction to make a life for herself with the man she loves in the place that she loved. she loved albemarle county and the piedmont, and she loves castle hill. that was one source of friction with her first husband, who wanted her to travel the world. she wanted to see europe, but then she wanted to go back to castle hill and remain there. [a >> please help me welcome in sequence jason kander, author of "the invisible

Transcripts For CSPAN2 David Hackett Fischer African Founders 20220813

we will ship it to you if you live in the u.s. or you can pick it up from atlanta. it is a great feel and repurchase will support david and atlanta history center's ability to do this programming. david and i talked tonight, please submit her questions into the queue and day. we'll get as many of those as we possibly can in the event time we have with us tonight. we briefly introduced david hackett fisher. he needs very little introduction with our audience. david hackett fischer is a university professor and professor of history and narrative at brandeis university in massachusetts. he is an author of numerous books including the 2005 pulitzer prize winner of washington crossing and chaplain stream. in 2015, he got the literature award for lifetime achievement and military writing. he is going to start off tonight talking a little about the book, the premise of it and then will move to questions. thank you so much for being with us tonight. >> it is a pleasure to be with you. >> would you like to just tell us a little bit about your book. the premise of it and what got you started on it? >> let me begin by telling you a little about another book which is called albion's seed. i was wondering where we all came from and where we are going. i've started by looking at our british ancestors. i found that they came from many different parts of britain and went to many particular parts of the states. it was about people coming from east anglia, to new england. then i followed a different pattern that went to every american region from a different part of england. i did quite a lot of research and gathered materials that have been done on migration. we now know thanks to a lot of the work that genealogists have been doing about the flow of the population. we were able to build an empirical base on that basis so that we know where these origin art -- tended to be patterned. i found that each of these migrations to these various american regions were also very focused in time. new england had what they called the great migration which was only about 11 years, from 1629 21640. that was when the -- the bulk of the founders came over in a very large low end very difficult period in english history. they were people responding and retreating from the impurity of the stuarts, charles the first in particular. they came mainly to new england. they founded places that were built on town meetings and self-government. as a strong counterpoint to what was being imposed upon them. the result was the town meeting culture of new england that we know so well today. then, i will not go into great detail but i looked at four other american regions. never the same group of migrants. always coming from different places, at different moments, going to different parts of the u.s. the result was the development of the regional patterns that we know in america today. that is what albion sea was about. this next book which was our primary business tonight has the same sort of thing for the migration for africa to what is now the united states. these people came mostly in chains. these were people who came as slaves. they also came in waves. they came to different parts of america from different places in africa in the same way that they migrations from europe or patterned. the result was a considerable diversity of african in america. my book lays all that out in detail. i will not repeat was in the book that way but that is the short of what i do. >> thank you for that. i was wondering, i did think the organization divided by regions was so interesting. the experience of people either from africa or of african descent who were brought here as slaves was so different depending on what region of the country they ended up in. just depending on that. >> let me add one other thing to that. the diversity of migrations. first of all, of english speaking people, there was a another secondary thing from different parts of germany. but those migrations then followed by these african might, created -- african migrations, created a diversity of cultures in america. these were groups that came over and settled together. they maintain that their cultural coherence in the new world. i think that diversity was the foundation of american pluralism. i think that pluralism is what keeps us free. that is what sustains liberty and freedom in america. i think that is absolutely sensual to the way this open society works. >> can you talk a little bit about the role of, either at this point in the culture's history, they might have still been enslaved or formerly enslaved, or people of african descent who were born free in america -- can you talk about their role in america in particular? you talked about how american pluralism helps to ensure freedom today. what role did the pluralism play or did not play in the revolution the doves? >> we had different revolutions in the different regions of america. what we think of as the american revolution started most of all in new england. it was the rising of these town born people from east anglia against what they saw as a conspiracy against their liberty and freedom. then, something like that was repeated in the other regions but never twice in the same way. the challenge was a little different in each place. the timing was different. but, the results were always the same in the sense that the driving of groups to maintain their own way of life within these regional cultures was sustained and strengthened the pluralism of america. that maintains liberty and freedom today. >> the first region that you cover in the book is new england. a very heavy puritan influence of course throughout early history. also, from white settlement in the u.s. some of the oldest settlements in new england. i found it really interesting, being someone who is from georgia and talking to an ion's tonight that i am going to guess has a large southeastern -- to an audience tonight that i am going to guess has a large southeastern and spread it is interesting to talk about how the puritans approach enslavement versus the white people who settled of the carolinas and georgia. i found it really fascinating that they had access to the courts in some areas of new england and were able to use that as a way sue for their freedom in many cases the verses in the coastal areas of the carolinas and georgia, there was very explicit motivation behind the white settlers in that region who said basically, we are doing -- installing this institution to make money. we need this labor to make money. in new england, and the puritans, you have this really finagling, trying to more of a justified. that is really interesting. can you talk more about how those two regions deferred and approached and how that influenced when enslavement and did? >> to start with new england, one can say that something special happened there. this group that came within a very short period, 1629-1640, only about 11 years, set in motion by events in england when charles the first try to rule england without a parliament. that caused resentment, particularly in the eastern parts of england. they were -- they came to america to maintain their freedom from a process that they thought was profoundly threatening to them. when they did that, they did other things as well. first of all, they settled in a region which was a challenging environment. it did not have the natural resources as other places then but it was very healthy for the inhabitants. they had high rates of growth, natural growth. and low death rates. they began to increase and multiply at rapid rates. they produce very large families. the families matured very quickly. the result was they were able very rapidly to produce a large and growing population and were able to meet their own labor requirements by that population growth. but if we go further south, it was not like that at all. if we go down, not to new york but let's jump to regina and maryland which was the first settled area -- to virginia and maryland which was the first settled area. things happened differently. england found they were living in a very unhealthy climate. it was -- i would not say tropical but at least somewhat subtropical. the rates of disease were much higher and mortality rates were high. rates of population increase were very low and they had great difficulty sustaining their population. that is what caused them to try to read workers and they began to read -- two important first english indentured servants but they found that more difficult. then they began to turn to slaves. african slaves. that is why african slaves began to be brought in large numbers into virginia and maryland, when they were not brought in large numbers to new england. that created two profoundly different population and cultures and much of american history is about those differences. >> i know that you go into great detail about this in the book but for those who have not yet had the chance to crack it open since it came out last week, can you go into a little detail about some of the cultural factors you attribute to the very large african influence on the south in particular? i was really struck by some of the statistics in the early years of the carolina colonies about the proportion of people in the colony who had slaves versus free. sometimes, that was as high a 75% of the population of the colony that was enslaved african americans. >> more extreme even than that. when we go to virginia, down to the carolinas, the differences were even greater than they were between england and virginia. that is we go further south, the environment was much, much more dangerous to immigrants who came, particularly from northern europe. death rates were very high. so, the importation of africans was much greater. i think it was them more than the economic system. many of my colleagues would say it was more the economic base by think it was mostly the geography, that cost the southern populations to import very large numbers of african-americans. there were some islands, in the sea islands of south carolina, where the population was 90% african and 10%. there was one island which was 1% european and 99 per african -- 99% african. that was the most extreme. there was a gradient that maps new england to the deep south and that varied in precisely that way. that is one of the most important drivers in regional differences in american street. >> i love -- i would love to spend a little time talking about language and how big of an influence the people of african descent had on language development in the united states. that sounded so interesting. of course, when you laid it out, it made a lot of sense by never talked about this war. that many people who grew up and raised in africa had a very developed multilingual skills. they had learn a lot of different languages to be able to communicate with lots of different groups of people. when they were kidnapped from africa and brought to the u.s., or at the time what was the colonies, even if they did not come from the same region as someone else, that they ended up living with in their new situation, they might still be able to communicate with them. can you talk a little bit about how african languages developed in the new world and how that helped to kind of knit together the community that developed once the african-americans began arriving in the u.s.? >> the story was different in every region. the differences were patterned in much the same way set these other things appeared as we have been seeing them. in new england, where there were very, very few africans, african cultures rapidly observed much more of the european cultures around them. comparatively little of the african cultures flew the other way in new england. if we go all the way down to the country of south carolina and georgia, that was the other extreme. where the europeans were -- and africans were increasingly the majority. often, the preponderant majority. there were all these other things rapid reverse. the persistence of african cultures began to get much stronger. the presence of european cultures was comparatively. so, we get a profound difference in the results. >> i would love to talk about the development of communities. specific communities in the broader african and african-american context during this time. of course, because the book is divided up by region, the book runs from depending on when the colony was first settled by europeans. some start further back and some run further forward. i would love to focus on the time. -- the time period between the american revolution, when that concluded and we had a united states, and the first few decades of the 18 threads which is where a lot of the book -- the 1800s which is where a lot of the book focuses on. when looking at that, you go into great detail about how in different regions, the types of communities of african-americans and found -- communities that african-americans and africans founded were very different to the portion of people who were able to get free versus those held in bondage. i was really fascinated to read about the role of african-american voluntary organizations and the big role those had in the north particularly. and you talk about those organizations. about the culture and how those organizations supported the development of the community until present day in someplace. >> everywhere, even in new england, where there was comparatively few africans who settled there, there were places where the african population was larger with an new england. and where that happened, we began to see african cultures developing and little more clearly. some of the towns, where they had somewhat larger groups of africans, who settled there, this was a process by which they began to meet together. also, what made a difference was that these africans came mostly from that area which i mentioned before in west africa. ghana, some from parts of nigeria. mostly ghanaians. i wife and i traveled in africa. we tried to go to all the parts of africa from which the africans came. these africans brought a sense of an african identity with their local cultures and formed some of that in a few new england communities. where their numbers were a little bit larger. we can see clustering's of that in rhode island, and parts of eastern massachusetts. we can see that sense of african culture developing there. that was -- it was much larger and more -- and stronger as we go further south and the african group got larger and larger as he went. they also tended, as we go south, to get more diverse. they were diverse everywhere. i have all the numbers in my book and you will see lots and lots of tables about where africans came from and every region. one can begin by saying they came from every part -- to each american colony, they came from many parts of africa but they were grouped. there were concentrations within that grouping and the concentrations varied as the go from one colony to a mother. i go into much detail about where they came from. we went to the villages in africa. my wife, she went looking for places of origin. and finding them and all that is in the book as well. as well as same for the british groups which are in my book albion's seed. the same sort of patterns with different proportions in the different countries. >> i would love to talk a little about the research process for -- the research process for a book like this. for those in the audience, you can see that this is quite hefty . it is almost 1000 pages and deeply footnoted. as david mentioned, there is extensive data. can you talk a little about the different sources you used and how you went about stitching all these things together to make a cohesive narrative? >> we needed to source first for the european populations which went mainly into the book that preceded this one. then, when we came to the african side of this, we had to do these for the african groups. for that, we had to identify where they came from in africa, what the patterns are as a mixture of the different african origins in each place and there are lots of ways of doing that and we are getting more and more knowledge about that. the knowledge is growing exponentially as time passes. we are learning more and more about this area a lot of genealogists are working on this and a lot of folks quantitative the story are doing a very elaborate quantitative study of this that have been going as my work progressed. and will keep growing well beyond it. the more that that happens, the more we know already, we are learning quite the patterns and how strongly etched they were into american history. a 10 -- the africans tended to arrive in groups and clumps of africans. and, as a consequence, they were local concentrations that came from the origins of slave wages. and, historians are being able to reconstruct all of that with more and more refinement of detail. the more we learn about that, the more we learn about the different compositions of the different regions. and, the dynamics of those compositions. and how fundamental they are to the main lines of american history. >> you talk about very detailed quantitative data to really illustrate what you are talking about. the wide variety of regions by which people originated. the numbers of folks who were actually brought here at different times and how that ebbed and the. who also used a lot of personal stories to help -- you also use a lot of personal stories to help humanize. >> always, even as we are framing our fiery in the spot -- our requirements in this quantitative ways, he wanted to talk about the impact of individual choices and experiences. for that part, we had to listen to individual speakers. much of my book tries to do that. to try to bring out that experience. once again, we find a huge variety and complexity of it. never twice the same in each of these regions. always a little bit different and always very rich. the primary thing i have to say over and over again until everybody is sick of it. the diversity of this process created pluralism in this culture that is the source of our liberty and freedom. our differences and our diversity keeps us free and that is what i think is vital to american history. >> i know this is going to be basically an impossible question given the fact that by name, you mentioned i am going to guess hundreds of people in this book. are there one or two particular stories that when used with personal stories of individuals that just really continue to stick with you that you think illustrate some of what you are talking about and how that perla some helps preserve american freedom and democracy? >> it is difficult for me to do that because it is such a vast canvas. there are lots of stories in the book. the readers are welcome to dive in. >> this reader would love to know if there is one from georgia in particular since we have a love of georgians in the audience. if you can narrow it down to that of what really assuming that stuck with you when you are writing this book? >> about georgians? i do not think in -- georgia was a very small part of the early american history. georgia becomes much more important as time passes. it does not loom very large in the itself. >> that is very true. let's talk about resistance. we lay out that resistance can take many forms -- you lay out that resistance can take many forms. we explicitly think of running away, leaving a revolt or a rebellion, committing acts of violence in order to date. but there are also other more subtle forms of resistance that you lay out. the work stoppage. one could argue in a system that seeks to dehumanize area the acts of marriage and children and families as a way of reclaiming some of that humanity. you also talk about how the approach to resistance was both in different regions of the united states but also took on different forms depending on where people originated from within africa. can you talk a little bit about how that will -- how that looked different and some of the trends you found? >> i can give a few examples. one of them was, let us go to the hudson valley for example. there, most of my attention was to the dutch period of the hudson valley's history. when the dutch controlled the new netherlands, they began to report slaves from angola. the slaves they brought from angola tended to be, for reasons that are complex in the history of angola, where people who were often engaged in commerce and trade. they found themselves in the new netherlands. they very rapidly became active. they began to notice their masters were very open to anything that would increase their profit from slavery. they began to discover that they could begin to bargain with their masters. for small privileges that then grew into larger ones. that process of bargaining went on between these angolan entrepreneurial and the dutch onto printers. that -- entrepreneurs. that created a more open process in which enslaved africans were able to persuade these, their masters, that by granting privileges of various kinds, they could increase profit as a consequence. the africans very cleverly , in one of the major sections of my book, about slavery in new york. it was never twice the same. it varied in each region. it's a very complicated story. there were other stories like that throughout america. that was the way africans began to pry open possibilities for themselves, even if they were slaves. bargaining with their masters in ways that could persuade their masters that they could make more money by granting some of these privileges. very specific examples are in the book. >> i found that really fascinating. how the dutch colonies originated with dutch settlers were very different in their approach to that process in general. we mentioned it earlier but this is something i found particularly fascinating. can you talk about how the use of the courts, courts of law, became a tool that lots of africans used to petition for their freedom in various regions in various ways? >> yes. what is it you would like to know about that? anything in particular? >> yeah, it sticks with me that in massachusetts in particular that was -- there is this great anecdote11 who had been serving at a table. she was a slave. she heard about the new massachusetts constitution. she was hearing discussions about how the new massachusetts constitution says1 people130 says people were created equal. she said, why am i doing this if the constitution says that and she went and got a lawyer and used that to sue for her freedom. >> it is astounding to see how that works. there are hundreds of stories like that in the book. in which slaves are always looking for ways to diminish the rigors of their bondage and open possibilities of freedom and liberty for themselves. in just that way. they were very clever about it, often. and frequently successful. but not always. >> but not always, right. dependent on of course of the laws they were going up against and in their various regions. >> depending on a lot of things. one thing that made a big difference was a cop very difficult for them to do this in southern colonies where numbers were larger, and european populations were smaller. it felt much more dangerous. they were much more reluctant to grant any openings that way. the northern colonies would tend to be more open because they were less in fear of their slaves. >> we have audience questions coming in. those listening tonight, if you have not yet submitted questions, now is the time so we will be sure we get to them if we can. this question comes from a man named david who took your classes at brandeis. he says that in your classes at brandeis you encouraged us to engage with original sources whenever possible and do research in town or historical archives. can you go into more detail about how you went about conducting research in africa? were there national libraries or universities you were able to engage with for archival or field research? >> thank you for that question. that is very important to the way i have taught. i have always tried to teach,, even in large courses, to break them down into small groups and get them -- get people working -- researchers working beside their teachers rather than underneath them. we would always try to do that. i thought that is a very important way to move forward. where do you want to go with this question from there? >> it is so hard to know because your travels were extensive and your research process took place over decades. but where there any particular places within africa, universities, or archives you are able to access there or elsewhere that were particularly key in unlocking some of the research for you? >> i think the more important thing that happened to us in africa was to get out into african communities. to meet people in their own community. to observe how their community works. that's what my wife and i tried to do as we traveled through africa. we spent more of our time in african villages and towns then we did in archives. we were interested in seeing how the communities function. that was always a great interest to us. we tried to put what we learned to work in the book. >> absolutely. there is another question here from someone named robson. they say, can we relate in any sense the differences of african influence in the south and in new england to the differing religious practice in these regions? >> you said differences in the south and what? >> new england. can you relate those to do the development of religion? >> well, in new england, the critical timeframe in the 17th century was one in which the british founders of the towns came mostly from one region in america, and mostly, from one group of christians, what we call puritans today. it was a very narrow span of opinion within the broad reach of western civilization. that made a big difference for what happened in new england. they really had very special ways of thinking about why they were there, who they were, what they were for. what they believed in. they were calvinists. they had a very strict religious set of beliefs. they also had some experience in participatory government in east anglia and that made a big difference as well. they also tended to migrate in comedies. their families remained intact. that meant that the gender ratios remained nearly normal, nearly at parity, between men and women in new england. that made a big difference. that meant families were quick to form. it meant that population grew more rapidly. in the south, the further south we go, the greater the difference. all of these things were far removed from new england. the results were very different. >> if you are thinking about the timeframe, you know the difference, the geographical difference even from new england the south and in the flow of information, the flow of people, that makes a lot of sense. do you see continuing influences that africans and african-americans had on religion in particular in the south? is this something you dig into in the book? >> i do think that some of the forms of worship and of communication in africa were taken up, particularly if we go to the extreme of all of this, the sea islands of south carolina and georgia where the population was so heavily african, and as such a small minority were european. there, we can see that african cultures were, i think, much stronger stand in cultures, the forms of religious worship became more spontaneous, more oral. the biblical texts became less important. verbal processes became more intense. we can see a big difference there in that way. there were also senses of collective worship there that were very interesting. in some of the ways they echoed african patterns in the sea islands. they made it a very different from the individuated religiosity of new england. the question in new england was always "what must i do to be saved? " and in the south it was more of a collective process. we see that in the camp meetings and all of that, more so as we go not only from new england to virginia, but even more from virginia up to the carolinas and georgia. >> sure. i have an audience question from all. she is interested in your research travel in ghana. would you explain how people in ghana responded to the subject of slavery and african participation in the transatlantic slave trade? >> well, i've found that the people of ghana had highly developed commercial patterns of interaction. they lived in a web of trade of that sort. they brought that to america and engaged it very quickly in new england. in rhode island in particular, we can see them entering very quickly into the commercial life of new england. there was an interesting pattern there. >> we are getting close to the end of our time tonight. if anyone else has other questions, drop those in the q&a . it is now or never for this titan of american historical research. england's enclosure and transportation act played a central role in england's population -- populating of its colonies. can you comment on the role of that? >> i did not understand. >> england's enclosure and transportation act. >> its enclosure and transportation act? enclosures in particular? lexi s. he would -- >> yes. he would like to know more about how those roles played a role in populating the english colonies. >> enclosures played a big difference in driving people off the land. and, sitting them in motion across the ocean. i think that was the most direct linkage i can think of. i would stress that amongst all others i would think. >> in closing tonight we have two questions from the audience that both get to looking forward from writing this book. this question comes from kelly. she says, do you have any particular hopes that your book can help display -- dispel any inaccurate assumptions about african-americans? can you explain your hopes in the context of present-day issues relating to the history? >> the first thing i hope people take away from my book is that -- the complexity, the richness of african-american culture and experience in this country. it was very diverse in its origins, its african origins. very diverse in its american experiences. i verse in the europeans who the africans met in the new world. the result was an extraordinary range of experience and also of creativity in the way they responded. i think that the creativity of this process, in america particularly, is what always, what i am always amazed to rediscover with every trip into the archives. >> one last attendee would like to know, given your years of research on this subject and on american history generally, they would like to note that many in the south, white slave owners in particular, who don't want to acknowledge the harsh realities of enslavement, how do you think that your book can help to clarify some of this history? >> i come from maryland. some of my ancestors were slaveowners. that was in the family history. i am very conscious of all of that. some of my other ancestors were antislavery people. we were very mixed. that's common to many people who grew up in a border state. what i'm trying to do is reach out to the diversity of experience in america and to the richness of the culture that developed from that diversity and the diversity itself becomes key to the strength of liberty and freedom. that is the importance. pluralism and diversity is what keeps us free. that is what i derived most of all as the fundamental truths of american history. >> david hackett fischer, thank you so much for your insight and expertise. for the research and work you put into this incredible volume. to everyone in the audience, if you have not yet purchased your copy of "african founders" it is available from the african history -- atlanta history center museum shop. >> can i also say. if anybody has a copy of the book and is reading it and has a question or a comment or thinks i got something wrong, which i always do, send me an email. i am easily reached. be in touch. i will get back to you. i would like to hear from you. lex thank you. that's very generous of you. -- >> thank you. that's very generous of you. i hope some of you in the audience take him up on that >> today we are very pleased to have jane turner with this, who is discussing her new biography. he was well known throughout america as the author of a scandalous novel and is a beauty who had married the air to -- heir to the astor family. years earlier, she had burst from the literary scene with a short story in the atlantic mo

Transcripts For CSPAN2 Jane Turner Censer The Princess Of Albemarle 20220813

illustrated monthly. in today's talk, jane will explore how she went from anonymity to a household name. she is a professor emeritus of history at george mason university, especially -- specializing in 19th-century america and southern women. her essays and articles have appeared in numerous journals, including the journal of southern history, the american journal of legal history, southern culture, and the american quarterly. in 2017 and 2018, she served as president of the american historical association. she is the author of several books including "north carolina planters and their children 1800-1860" and "the reconstruction of southern womanhood," and most recently the subject of today's talk, "the princess of albemarle, a melie rives." please welcome jane turner sensor -- censer. jane: thank you for that lovely introduction. it is a pleasure to be in richmond, the city where amelie rives was born almost 160 years ago, and i/o a special thanks to the museum for the invitation, and to the valentine museum, which has allowed me to use so many of the beautiful pictures of rives you will see here today and in my book. in 1891, article referred to her as "the most noted of the younger writers of not only the south but of america." only 28 years old, rives had already been publishing for five years. most readers would have immediately recognized her name. some of -- would have thought of her scandalous bestseller, "the quicker the dead," and others would have pointed to her short stories. others would have anecdotes about her beauty and headstrong behavior. as the daughter of a railroad executive and granddaughter of u.s. senator from virginia, rives had a privileged life. she married two times, one a wealthy new yorker, the second a russian prince, and she also became the prolific author of over 25 books, as well as short stories and essays. her experiences provide insight into a changing world for women, especially southern female authors. her first interactions with editors proved particularly enlightening about how the gendered code of conduct of the day was changing. these interchanges highlighted the difficulties women encountered in literary magazines, even as such journals increasingly sought white southerners' stories as part of sectional reconciliation. for many decades, southern white women had been authoring books -- generally novels focused on courtship and marriage, aimed at a female audience. as the civil war receded, some women attempted to scale more exalted heights of northern publishing. rives' attempts there yield insights into barriers and opportunities. in the 1870's, white southern writers increase their visibility by participating in the local color movement, which featured regional dialects. among southerners, joel chandler harris's uncle remus stories led the way, and mary murphy began publishing her appalachian stories in the 1870's. thomas nelson page popularize the plantation romance set in the antebellum civil war period. americans seemed to have found simpler lives in close relationships on the plantation. magazines, because of their growing readership, presented a new, lucrative pathway into a literary career. "the atlantic" commanded great respect. "harper's monthly" was the best-selling magazine of the day. both faced competition from the illustrated magazine, as well as others like appleton's and lippincott. emily reeves -- amelie rives claimed she had an almost accidental entrance into publishing. three years after her first story appeared, she said, "i wrote that into evenings, sitting up in bed. i wrote it because i like to write and because i had the story in my mind. one day a nice boy of who we were very fond was visiting at the house and found that story in the library. nothing would do but he must take it back to boston when he went." he then submitted it to the atlantic monthly. these basic facts, while correct, indicated nothing of the deliberate campaign that amelie rives had waged to break into print. in fact, before she was "discovered," rives had tried to publish a novel. in 1884, as a 21-year-old, she submitted a manuscript entitled "civilization" to the formidable boston publisher hoffman mifflin . this was a bold move for an unpublished author, and especially a young southern lady. perhaps predictably from an unsolicited manuscript, it was rejected. reeves wrote the publishers, "i thank you very much for having read my story, civilization, and am very sorry to have given you so much trouble for nothing. of course i am disappointed, but still convinced that you know much better than i could the worth of the story." defending her decision to submit her manuscript, amelie told the publishing house, "i never wrote a novel before," and she added that she wanted to aid her close friend moody pleasant, who suffered from a disfiguring cleft palate, relying on the code of ladylike conduct as justification. she ended her letter, "i tell you this in order that you may not think me very presumptuous if i try again." nevertheless, rives found it very difficult to remain sweetly stoic with rejection. when the publisher's representative mentioned grammatical errors in her rives, -- in her novel, rives disclaimed authorship. she said "i must tell you that the young lisman who really wrote "civilization -- the young englishman who really wrote civilization has permitted me to tell you i did not really write it. i do scribble may someday send you something of mine, but i write only very stupid things on the order of essays." this first unsuccessful attempt at publishing apparently led rives to seek alternative pathways. the dreary historians have suggested that the most successful 19th-century novelist relied on sponsorship, a truth that ameli in -- amelie intuitively grasped. she needed a sponsor. difficult for a southern woman, but she had two friends interested in her work who possessed a necessary connection. both were young unmarried men and she resorted to flotation and flattery to peak -- pique their interest. one possible sponsor was already in rives' life. for almost nine months, she had been exchanging letters with virginia author thomas nelson page, a distant cousin 10 years older than she. these letters were not an attempt to win paige's heart, what part of a careful campaign that aimed for literary companionship and sponsorship. the letters indicate a young woman trying to fascinate by alternating between sensuality and intellectuality, neither of which were supposed to be part of the southern belle's repertoire. possibly also viewing page as a literary soulmate, rives hoped for praise, and notice, and that he would bring her writing to national publishers. when thomas nelson page and amelie rives began to correspond, he was practicing law here in richmond. more conservative than she, he also took a more traditional view of a woman's place. they shared common piedmont, virginia ancestors and literary leanings. both were fascinated by the ancient world, loved scottish dialect and english heritage stories. clearly important to rives were links to the literary world. in the spring of 1884, the story that vaulted page to national fame had been accepted by century magazine. rives, in her first reply to page, blended mystery, exoticism, and drama. with seeming frankness, she declared that his letter had been fascinating. when he suggested she was a flirt, she pictured herself as a dangerous siren. "as for flirting, dear cos, you say it is in my nature, and what will you say when i tell you frankly yes? it is there very strongly and i'm afraid very indelibly. what will you say again when i tell you i do not flirt? it is true, quite true," and she boasted she had recently foregone a conquest. as a belle who signaled her general availability, amelie assured page he held a special place in her regard. "do you understand i speak to you as i would too few people, man or woman? and you must not laugh at me," she chided. "you do not know how anxious i am to see your story about marsh chan. i find i am thinking of you through the long night. remember, you told me of it last summer." she claimed to hate modern fiction by henry james, and talked paige's work. "i would rather read something you had written from your heart then even that undeniably beautiful book the portrait of a lady." with sensuous imagery, she predicted page's literary fame. "i am sure you will be one of the famous writers, as i am of the moan of wind down my chimney. that is the most indisputable fact, as you yourself would say. can you see the lilette flames from the fresh oakwood flitting around like little salamanders?" she later consoled page for an unfavorable review by comparing him to shakespeare. the remainder of rives' letter took a common approach. in entertaining page, she showed her skill at various literary genres and alluded to her wide reading. as the letters end, she returns to the theme of attraction. "i wish with all my heart to see you, to know you better, and to love you more, but how is one to behave when i in fact feel you are all the time thinking i am trying to flirt with you and to fascinate not your true friendship, not your honest love, but that berserk which lurks in every newfoundland dog and which i am sure is part and parcel of every man alive." here she combines a knowledge of novelist charles kingsley's book about the warrior ethic among anglo-saxons with a comparison of plus to love -- a difference that page, who preferred women firmly on the pedestal, probably did not wish to consider. when page asked rives in mid march 1984 to tell about herself, she declared an utter lack of self-knowledge. "i fear less of myself than i know of greek, and of that i know only there is a beginning and an end, which to our alpha and omega. the end with me is not yet." using "end" as a segue, she launched into a disquisition on marriage. "they say marriage is the end with women. i hope not. i do not want to be married myself, and yet -- and yet how lonely are the old maids." she then proffered a cameo of her spinster aunt. "my aunt ella reeves is a living warning to me. she is 48. she is very yellow. she wears pale brown stockings that wrinkle, and cloth slippers that are out at the toes. she is very good and unbearably disagreeable. she eats ducks and plays on a melodian for recreation." rives pointedly ended the portrait, "i do not want a husband, but i think a melodia is equally undesirable." rives intentionally raised contradictions. her doctors had warned that writing was affecting her health. "everyone comes to see me. my room is a little court in a big, gilded wicker chair runabout with blue-ribbon's." while being delicate was quite ladylike, rives also proclaimed her vibrancy and emphasized her body in a distinctly unladylike way, celebrating her driving herself in a first carriage ride since her illness. she wrote "the air was like wine and had a really vileness -- v inous effect on me. i shouted like a big boy conscious of his big boydom. the wind blew all my curls straight up on and, and so -- on end, and so happy was i that i forgot to be vain and pull them back into order. -- order." rives took a reference as an opportunity to joke about her own love of bathing. "i am a very diogenes and live in my tub." as if the image of her nude body in a bathtub was not transgressive enough, she closed the paragraph with a width of religious heterodoxy. "the cleanliness being next to godliness, and i'm being near heaven through that, means that any other do persevere through day-to-day." rives, as she advertised her fascination, so this relationship as a chance for intellectual exchange as literary sponsorship. even as her first letters to page showed off her wide reading and ability to write in different dialects and genres, she very slowly pulled him into her world of writing. only in her third letter did she mention her poetry. "i send you some jewels i made a year ago. i am a lazy wench and these being already copied, i send them to you." by the summer of 1884, amelie began her literary aspirations. in july, she confided "i too have written a novel this summer, but i fear not what one would look for in a girl. being made of so muscular an order that even men would have to chew to digested." she then assured page, "do not be thinking that it smacks of immorality. not so, i swear." she revealed a little more. by the spring of 1885, page had begun to court a wealthy woman and his friendship with amelie became merely literary. that fall, after the century magazine accepted his story, page showed some of amelie's works to his editor. she also secured another male friend, william sigourney otis, to help toward publication. will otis was that nice boston boy who showed her story to the editor of atlantic monthly. in 1885, he was a 28-year-old lawyer from a prominent family who had graduated from harvard college and harvard law school. contemporaries considered will a strikingly handsome man, noted for his geniality, wit, and readiness with repartee, athletic and active he was a founding editor of "the harvard lampoon." will otis and amelie rives may even have been engaged. that was the impression she gave in october 1880i've when she told -- 1885 when she told rives "it is all off between will and myself and i feel as we as air." otis scored the first success for rives, who told about it in late october 1885. will took a short story to houghton mifflin, and readers for the atlantic monthly got hold of it. i can't pretend to tell you all the nice things he said. he thinks he is a man and insisted on my coming at once boston. when will told him that would be impossible, he laughed and asked if i were in prison. rives was ecstatic, marveling "just to think the first short story i ever wrote coming out in the atlantic." thomas bailey eldridge was not just a reader. he was editor at the magazine, renowned for its fiction. although his first reaction to rives' story was wildly enthusiastic and he said he wants every scrap i ever wrote. she gratefully gushed to aldri ch, "i will do whatever you think best with regard to it and anything else i ever write." rives had just achieved publication with a story set in 16th century england. here she different from most southern writers, who wrote about the south. rives wrote the story in an era entranced by stories of chivalric heroes. hers was more pointed toward the national rather than a southern audience. while the stories featured romance, the resourcefulness and daring of its heroines foreshadowed rives' later writing. over the next few months, rives pelted aldrich with manuscripts as she sought to make the editor her literary guide. she pledged her loyalty. "you shall have the very first links of my brain and heart, and i will write for no one else in the world if you want me to write for you." the next few stories that rives sent alrich did not please him. at least two were eventually published and show she was writing historical fiction in different locales. getting to worry in december that aldrich merely wanted her to replicate "a brother to dragons," amelie complained "i am going to begin on a sister to dragons, followed by a brother-in-law to dragons, and these will be the progenitor of a race of little nephews, nieces, and grandchildren to dragons, which shall all be sent in time. please forgive me if i have been at all impertinent. i would not be that for the world." despite her exasperation, rives pleaded for aldrich's approval at the same time she begged for editorial advice. she begged him to visit and suddenly indicated her elite jimmy back by describing her home as "one of the very few old southern homesteads which has remained in the same family for 200 years." she excused her unconventional requests on the grounds of gratitude. "i think i want to wait on you a little and fetch things for you, and to know you and to learn the things you like, and to earn your approval and the right ear friendship. -- to your friendship. it isn't too much, is it?" in truth, it seems to have been far too much for the new england editor, who labeled her letters "singular correspondent." irritated by this author, who was not the young man he expected, aldrich found her responses to questions of whether the article should be signed with initials or a nom de plume to be the last straw. even if amelie exulted over her story's acceptance, she received other good news. richard watson gilder, editor at the century, which to publish a story that page had shown him. suddenly amelie was dealing with proxies with prestigious publishers. for a young woman of 22, this was a heady new experience. in ladylike fashion, rives had to use go-betweens to gain acceptance of her writing. yet how far she should go in publicizing her authorship was a problem. although most southern female authors in 1885 published under pen names, amelie first told aldrich "you may also use my name, just as you please. i am perfectly willing to submit everything to your judgment." yet rives responded to page's news about her acceptance by begging him not to reveal her name to the century's editor. "i am beginning to get frightfully shy and alarmed and feel like taking my head in the sand of 20 noms de plume lichen ostrich. i would rather not." the question of whether rives would publish under her own name occurred repeatedly and showed how her ambitions conflicted with proper behavior of southern women. in november, she suggested a pen name. by early december, she asked aldrich just to print the story without any name, and later that month consider using her initials. the entire matter took a bizarre twist in late january 1886. both aldrich and the other editor received letters supposedly from rives that she would publish under her own name. "publish my name, and i do not want you to think it is strange that i have asked you not to publish my name after my short stories and whatever of mine you have." the letters to page said "my father has asked me to publish my name in the injury -- the century." aldrich believed this letter wasn't -- was evidence rives had corresponded with another editor. she called the letter a hope. she said, there are only two people with handwriting identical to mine. one is my sister and one is perhaps the only enemy i have. amelie self righteously asserted "i have had no correspondence with mr. gilder. the verses were sent him by mr. page, my cousin." at the same time, rives sent a distraught note to paige to stop the publication of her name in the century. she said, "i do not wish my name published. i have said so over and over again. i wouldn't have aldrich to think me so childish and doubledealing for anything in the world." later that month, rives declared that the letter page had received was a perfect forgery. was someone forging letters or did rives simply pretend? one allegedly forged letter that survives presents some stylistic differences and appears slightly more rounded in script than most of amelie's. if these letters were fraudulent, the most likely culprit was younger sister gertrude who had similar handwriting and would have known about the acceptance of the story and poems. but perhaps amelie wrote the letters and denied it. her vacillation on the subject of publishing under the name shows awareness that numerous family members and friends would disapprove. indeed, her late grandmother, who had died four years earlier, may have influenced amelie's literary aspirations, as well as her beliefs about how we 80 should appear in public. -- how a lady should. publish. in the 1840's, judith had published a book under a pseudonym "a lady of virginia." grandmother rives, in an unpublished autobiography, also commented on forms of female self presentation and criticize the hoyt in style -- hoyden style and the blue stocking and eccentric. amelie must've understood her provocative letters and expressive conduct fell firmly within her grandmother's definition of a hoyden. her final comment after the alleged perjury fell back on proper behavior. "if you have ever known me, you will believe me when i say that as a lady i am incapable of conduct that is so unladylike." despite these brave words, amelie had already wandered far from the ladylike conduct expected in her grandmother. amelie also showed in these early letters a concern with vendor's relation to publication, her disavowal of her early novel asserted a young englishman had written it. she also had told page she wanted a poem which she that twitch -- she wanted her poem evaluated as if a man wrote it. she understood editors evaluated differently. rives showed significant worry about propriety and purity. in 1884, after admitting to page that she was something of a flirt, she added her wish to be called a good, true woman. a maiden, most excellent, shining white. this is what i would have, even then fame, even then honor. she added, when you know me better, you will know how this is my ambition. apparently tiring of rives' style, aldrige suspended approval of two stories. possibly he believed her overly emotional and hysterical. by the time a brother to dragons appeared in print, listing no author, pseudonym, or initials, aldrich and his new author were no longer in contact. in addition to rives, he also published stories from tennessee and mary murphy and african-american author charles w chesnutt. chestnutt's first story was published a year after "a brother to dragons." it featured uncle julius, an elderly friedman who tell stories of slavery to a white narrator. while thomas nelson page's african-americans pined for the old regime of slavery, uncle julius did not, and introduced whites to a world that involved conger, ghosts -- conjure, ghosts, and cruel owners. aldrich originally assumed the author was a white man. murphy submitted her stories under a male pen name. chestnutt sent in the story under the transom, unannounced and unmediated. after the break with aldrich, rives began to submit stories to richard watson gilder at the century. all went swimmingly that spring of 1886. by mid-march, she was conferring with him over a story, and suggested modifying its language because "i wrote it very quickly, and i always write." that may, amelie visited the editorial offices, where she received "quite a novation" at their headquarters. at that time, the century had accepted one of amelie's stories and was considering another. yet two months later, gilder no longer wanted rives' writing. in july, rives had a novella, "virginia of virginia," rejected by gilder. some believe it is the best of her early writing. it is the story about an ill starred relationship between eight tenant farmer's daughter, virginia, and in englishman who bought a plantation in the war-ravaged state. the people speak in dialect, and the african-americans, while warmhearted, speak in malaprop is him. common whites and the englishman show racism, yet the heroin rises above her impoverished origins to show kindness that illuminates the story. gilder seems to have rejected rives' story because he believed himself a guardian of morality. according to a literary historian, he excluded from his family magazines whatever he thought would offend the mothers of the nation or corrupt their daughters. the headstrong nature of rives' heroine, who is passionately attracted to an upper-class englishman, probably appeared unseemly to gilder. gilder was an active editor who pushed authors to remove passages that offended him. it suggests his objections to the story was to its general outline rather than a few specific points that could be changed. he may also have disdained rives ' heroine, who overcomes her jealousy and finds atonement and redemption. moreover, the white and black southerners appear poor, uneducated, and disheveled -- for from the inhabitants of harmonious plantations as depicted by writers like thomas elton page. possibly coming gilder believed "virginia of virginia" sentimental and immoral. intriguingly enough, this lack of interest came as the century promoted southern authors and southern themes. as i indicated, gilder mentor, published, and publicized thomas elton page. after accepting page's story, gilder worked three years to modify parts he thought might offend northern sensibilities. while closing the century's pages to uncouth white southerners, they were open to page's mythmaking. eventually, gilder realized the unreconstructed nature of page's beliefs. his essays criticized african-american social and political aspirations. the century stopped publishing his work. then, a best-selling author, page no longer needed the century. despite initial problems, rives quickly found a new publisher who tolerated her eccentricities and unconventionality. by early august 1886, she was in contact with the publishers of harper's. the following year, harper's published four of her stories, including "virginia of virginia," and a story which chronicled the life of a virginia farmers daughter who married a wealthy northerner for social position. the 1891 testimonial to rives as "the most noted of the younger writers" came from thomas nelson page himself. elsewhere in that article, page largely slighted white southern female authors and reserve praise to men, particularly joel chandler harris and other authors of dialect stories. page did not even mention mark twain, of a considered to be the greatest 19th century southern writer, or charles chestnutt, or sherwood bonner, a mississippi woman whose novel depicted a romance between an alabama woman and a northern abolitionist. the experiences of amelie rives show the limit of northern publications. they wanted a national literature and were open to white southern women and african-americans, but prefer to read about a beautified old south rather than an impoverished postwar south. gilder helped page become the symbol as well as the voice of southern literature that glorified the slaves south and marginalized those who pictured a south outside that mythological realm. by the time of page's 1981 testimonial, her writing moved far from southern topics. only by birth was she a southern writer. while some of her later stories and novels used virginia locales, none dealt in southern themes. after publishing the first poem under her own name, she always used her own name and publications. over time, she deviated even further from the behavior expected of a southern later -- southern lady. novels contained assertive, passionate, sensual women. she divorced her first husband to pursue another love. she aimed to be a celebrity as well as a novelist. she cheered on a younger generation of writers, including ellen glasgow. as a young lady, connolly reeves wanted to write. as she sought male mentors and sponsors, she portrayed herself as flirtatious but pure, and expressed ladylike difference to their superior -- ladylike de ference. she played on the role of the southern lady to serve her unladylike aspirations. victorious in the 1890's, rives at her desk in 1945 was almost unknown, and her part in the southern literary movement of the late 19th century had been largely forgotten. thank you. [applause] >> what was her educational background? she was born in 1863, grew up near charlottesville. i wonder if she had any formal education. does she refer to any authors that she felt particularly influenced by? jane: she was particularly influenced by her grandfather's library at chapel hill, where she read widely. her first years were spent in mobile, alabama, where her father was an executive for the mobile and ohio railroad. she apparently had tutors and it was quite am unsystematic education. she was largely self educated. she discovered herself. she educated herself. she had tutors and governess's. the higher education that women were beginning to receive. this was the time of the founding of the seven sisters colleges, and when many southern women's colleges were founded in the antebellum period. >> thanks. i am her husband. but i have read this manuscript many times. what do you think were the readers of her works? what was her audience? who was she talking to, do you think? jane: i think disparate -- different parts of her writing spoke to different audiences. there is a real fad in chivalric stories, stories about knights and ladies in the postwar period. "a brother to dragons" and some of her earlier stories written in elizabethan dialect -- that is who they might appeal to. "the quick or the dead" appeal to young men and women because it was a romance pursued with a lot of intensity. there is a wide reading public in these days, and she is publishing in the magazines which are shared among people of all ages, i think, and even among the better off classes among the literate. so she is trying to break out of the domestic novel, the marriage novel that appealed only to women. she is trying to have a wider readership. hard to pin down. >> she was writing when the myth of the lost cause was emerging. was she accepting of that, or did she express suspicion? jane: she generally ignored it. i think the only book of hers that seems to have expressed -- to have accepted some of the lost cause came out in 1914, in which she depicted a plantation with really very high-minded owners. but it is still a postwar plantation. she did not go back to the antebellum period. one of her close friends was a southern writer named julia mcgruder, who grew up in washington, d.c. the greater expressed a much greater sort of distaste for the lost cause. and in one story ridiculed ladies who seemed to belong to something like the united daughters of the confederacy. but rives by and large ignored the lost cause. i think her 19th century african-americans and whites are not stereotypical, but she is quite willing to ridicule ordinary white people and african-americans, to use them for comic effect. >> how did her life conclude? jane: after she divorces her very wealthy first husband, she marries a russian portrait player, prince pierre troubetzkoy. they live in the plantation castle hill. as they are nearing the ends of their careers in the 1920's and 1930's, they are becoming increasingly impoverished. her books are no longer selling. i think he is not able to paint. he dies in 1936. so she has a rather sad last few years after the death of her husband as she is lonely living with her never-married sister at castle hill, which does not have central heating and is falling into disrepair. and the war in europe, given that she had married a russian ancestry portrait painter who had grown up in italy, she was really saddened by world war ii. she saw hitler's and mussolini as harbingers of barbarism and lights going out all over the world. as her light is going out, she is very sad. but i should add for that she actually come in the early 20th century, is a working author, and i think does -- she comes back from drug addiction to make a life for herself with the man she loves in the place that she loved. she loved albemarle county and the piedmont, and she loves castle hill. that was one source of friction with her first husband, who wanted her to travel the world. she wanted to see europe, but then she wanted to go back to castle hill and remain there. [a >> discovering the taping system, was it lucky or inevitable, is this lecture. the whole story of the nixon tapes has been only partially told, taking years to gather and find out what happened. since it is one of the