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police made just six arrests compared to 47 the night before. sign that even though tensions remain high, calm is returning to the community, at least for now. overnight, supporters of officer darren wilson took to the streets, but as you can see from this video, cops were quick to whisk them away. we're also hearing from a new witness. he's debunking the theory that brown bum-rushed the officer who shot him. >> about time i gets outside, he's already turned around, facing the officer. he's balled, he have his arms under his stomach and he was halfway down like he was going down and the officer lets out about three or four shots at him. >> and on the same day attorney general eric holder visited ferguson, promising a fair and independent investigation, brown's mother viewed her son's body at a local morgue for the first time. let's get the latest from ferguson from cnn's chris cuomo. good morning, chris. >> reporter: good morning, carol. she had to wait 12 days, no matter what you think about the situation or the investigation, has to be very difficult for a mother, and there is no question that last night things were better. the question is, will the investigation inspire the confidence to keep them that way? overnight in ferguson, the first real hint of calm. >> i am! >> mike brown! >> we are! >> mike brown! >> reporter: since michael brown was shot and killed 12 days ago. >> you can often tell how the night is going by the radio traffic and tonight, the radios were mostly quiet. >> reporter: one brief confrontation when demonstrators and supporters of officer darren wilson collide. a different scene from the night before, this video showing an angry st. ann police officer pointing his gun at the crowd. >> my hands are up. hands are up. >> hand up. i'll [ bleep ] kill you, get back. get back. >> you're going to kill him. >> get back. >> what's your name, sir? [ bleep ] >> reporter: a st. louis county police sergeant steps in to defuse the situation, forcing the officer to lower his weapon. >> put that [ bleep ] gun down. >> reporter: that officer now suspended indefinitely. attorney general eric holder is here meeting residents, hoping to ease tension. >> we want to help as best we can and we also want to listen. >> policeman pull up. >> reporter: this as another video surfaces showing the moments st. louis police shoot and kill 23-year-old jimmy powell. on tuesday. >> he got a gun out. >> get your hands out of your pocket! >> shoot me! shoot me! >> drop the gun. >> oh [ bleep ], [ bleep ]. >> drop the knife! >> reporter: police said he came at them with a knife after stealing from the convenience store. the incident -- >> we at war with the police. >> reporter: -- further fueling controversy about excessive force here by the police. >> that's all they want. that's all they want. >> reporter: do you believe the cops want to shoot? >> that's what they're doing. that's what you see. that's what we see. that's what we're waking up to. >> reporter: st. louis police chief sam dobson said the officers acted appropriately. could you have done something else in the situation other than kill him? >> he brings up a very god point. what about why use bullets, why not use a stun gun? >> tasers aren't 100%. if the taser misses the subject continues on and hurts an officer. >> reporter: now i think, carol, we're at a little bit of a turning point in the story right now. i don't think it was just the storm last night. people are exhausted. these are long nights. kids aren't going to school, people aren't being able to do their jobs, stores aren't open, life isn't moving for a section of the community here in ferguson. one of them held up a sign, i think you have video of it, saying "go get isis, leave us alone." the story has needed attention. now it is coming down to not the media attention of what went wrong but what will make it right, the investigation and the leadership that's needed here, both within the community and the government, to make changes to the police and culture with the community so that these types of things don't happen going forward. >> couldn't have said it better, chris cuomo, thanks so much. we'll get baaing to you. let's hear more from the latest witnesses to come forward what they saw the day michael brown was shot and killed. listen. >> you couldn't tell exactly what was going on. >> i seen the tussle in front of the window. he was standing on the bumper side, passenger side but five feet away br it. all of a sudden they just take off running. mr. brown, he just runs directly down the middle of the street and his friend, it was a car that was parked on the sidewalk, the ferguson cop, his vehicle was in the middle of the street diagonal, so they take off running. by the time i gets outside, he's already turned around, facing the officer. he's balled, he have his arms like under his stomach and he was like half way down, like he was going down, and the officer lets out about three or four shots at him. so like i said, just like the body, i took a few pictures and a video, about how his body is on the ground just like with his arms tucked in. that's how he got shot or whatever, but like i said before, he went down, he was already like this and took like one or two steps going towards the officer and like i said he let go about three or four more shots. >> okay, so this latest account is slightly different from what we've heard before. michael's friend, dorian johnson, says after being chased brown turned around with his hands up to tell the officer he was unarmed. another witness says officer wilson was shooting just ads soon as he got out of his car while chasing down michael brown. piaget crenshaw also says michael brown was running away while the officer continued firing at him, but a friend of officer wilson, who calls herself josie, says michael brown shoved the officer back into his car, and grabbed his gun, and then officer wilson shoved brown away and shot in self-defense. so how could these varying eyewitness accounts complicate the investigation? a lot. cnn's kyung lah has more. >> police shot this boy outside my apartment. >> reporter: seconds after michael brown was shot, witnesses from three different angles recording, with wildly different accounts of that critical moment. from this recording, audio from an unseen nearby man who says he saw brown moving towards the officer. >> he started running, kept coming towards the police. >> reporter: two women recorded from these two other angles. >> turns around, faces the officer, puts his hands up and the officer continues to shoot him until he goes down to the ground. >> so while he was running away from the officer, trying to get away, he was getting shot at. >> reporter: who is telling the truth? maybe everyone, or at least they believe they are. >> just because somebody tells you something with a lot of detail, just because they say it with confidence, just because they express it with emotion, it doesn't mean that it really happened that way. >> reporter: cognitive psychologist elizabeth loftus says she's testified in 300 cases since 1975, and says over and over again, eyewitnesses are often wrong. the trayvon martin case, one witness saw a black man with a hoodie on top of a white man, while another witness recalls a man with a white shirt on top of another. the 2002 d.c. sniper shootings, multiple witnesses described a white van or box truck. police shut down freeways to frisk scores of van drivers, but the real car used? a blue chevy four-door sedan. the 1995 oklahoma city bombing, loftus testified in the criminal case, and says a key eyewitness rented timothy mcveigh the ryder truck he used in the attack. >> the ryder truck employee remembered that mcveigh was with another person and there was a mad hunt for john doe number two but there was nobody with mcveigh the day he rented that ryder truck. >> reporter: the witness was not intentionally lying. memory is flawed and affected by stress, when eyewitnesses become courtroom witnesses, flawed testimony leads to bigger problems. >> the major cause of wrongful convictions is faulty eyewitness testimony. that's the major cause, and it's responsible and maybe about three-quarters of the cases. >> reporter: as time grows from the shooting, witnesses might unknowingly shape and adopt their own memories of what happened based on what they see and hear in the media. truth, often only found in the evidence recovered. k kyung lah, cnn, loss ang less. so how do jurors determine who is right and who is wrong? up next we'll ask our legal panel how investigators will factor in all these different eyewitness accounts and what it means for the future of the brown case. i'll be right back. the average person will probably drink something that is acidic on a daily basis. those acids made over time wear the enamel. i recommend pronamel. pronamel helps to defend the enamel from the acids in our diet... it helps to strengthen the teeth. as you know, grand jury in missouri has started hearing evidence in the shooting of that unarmed teenager, michael brown. the grand jury's also expected to sift through eyewitness accounts over the next few months and here's the hard part. as we told you earlier in "the newsroom" some of the witnesses tell very different versions of what exactly happened. how will that complicate the investigation and the possible decision by the grand jury to send this case to trial? let's bring in our legal analyst and criminal defense attorney joey jackson and joined by cnn legal analyst and criminal defense attorney paul callan and also a prosecutor, which is also helpful had in this situation. joey, how can you are he lie on eyewitness accounts when there are different versions that contradict one another? >> good morning, carol and paul. paul i'm sure will agree with this, generally what happens different witnesses see different things and come into event at different times so whether you're a prosecutor or defense attorney, it is not uncommon at all, in fact it's likely that different witnesses will tell different versions. now, in taking that into consideration, and paul will appreciate it, i tried a case last month in brooklyn, paul you were a homicide prosecutor there, four different witnesses seeing four different things. your job as defense attorney is to exploit that. from a prosecution's perspective you'll reconcile that briefly. in the event you look in michael brown's case and says a witness i didn't see his hands up at the shot. it could be the witness was focused on the officer's actions, so by the time he looked and saw michael brown the hands were down. doesn't mean michael brown's hands were not up. it means the witness the time they focused on michael ploun they weren't up at the time. you see the prosecutor reconciling the conflicting versions and see the defense exploiting these versions should he be indicted and it go to trial. >> let's get specific and paul, i know did you your homework and come up with seven or eight discrepancies of the eyewitness testimonies that will likely be used to break down their credibility if of course they're called to testify. let's run through some of these discrepancies. so piaget crenshaw says brown was running away and wilson continued shooting. other witnesses tell a different story. >> yes, and this is always the case when you have so many witnesses. being a prosecutor in a homicide case, the first thing i hope is you got some witnesses and all of a sudden you have too many witnesses and they're contradicting each other because they look at it from different angles and the other thing you have to worry about, are they influenced by what they're hearing on the news media or from their friends or in the community? you have all of these problems. now, we could just look at a few of these witnesses. michael brady was interviewed last night by anderson cooper. i don't know if you saw the interview, carol. i thought it was a compelling interview. he's older than a lot of the other witnesses, and sounds like a serious guy. i'm watching and i'm saying boy, this guy is a really good witness and he basically is very bad for the cop, because he's got the cop being shot, you know, while -- he has the cop shooting at an inopportune time, at a time when michael brown is surrendering. however, i noticed when he was giving his interview, he was referring to other people hearing shots. okay, they were talking about did you hear the shot that was fired in the car supposedly? and he said, well, i know other people have said that. so i now know he's thinking and has been influenced by other people's testimony in the case. now is that going to shape his testimony? very similar thing you look at piaget and tiffany, the two young ladies who testified and gave compelling stories that would indicate the officer deserves to be indicted but their stories have internal contradictions about when he put his hands up at what point in time, about whether a shot was fired at the car or not. i also find that with respect to johnson, the friend, that johnson's account, one of the things that i'm troubled by is if you have this crazed police officer firing shots trying to kill you, and you hide behind a car, are you going to have your head up watching the incident or aren't you going to be a little afraid you'll get shot yourself. when you listen to his account it's like he saw everything, 100% of things. while he was running to find a place to hide and he did hide. at some point he's missing some things but he sounds very thorough in his analysis. good defense attorney like joey jackson i might say, and i think jackson won that case in brooklyn by poking a hole -- >> hung youry. >> okay, so you win it next time. you spoke holes in witness testimony. >> with regard to witness influence, you give a statement. when you give that statement you will on record indicate what you saw. at the time of trial, if there is a trial, and there is an indictment, of course, people will convene, nine of which they say there's probable cause to believe a drim was committed he'll be indicted, the process will move forward but when you're a witness, you give your account. that's on record. in the event during the course of a trial you go off that, it's up to the attorney to what we call impeach you. that is to say, sir, you said this once upon a time but now today you're saying something else. so with regard to having you influence, the witness, that is, by another witness, there's a process to are that and it's called impeachment by a prior inconsistent statement so ultimately, carol, i do believe that as the matter goes forward, we'll see these inconsistencies. it's a matter of when a witness saw it, what the vantage point was of the witness and how was their ability and opportunity to observe? doesn't mean they're not tell the truth. doesn't mean they're not crazy. doesn't mean they're not reliable. they observed an event. >> here's what's turning into a nightmare in this case and i don't think you'll disagree with me on this. these witnesses have given so many statements because they're doing the rounds, giving television interviews. >> on tape. >> when you were a prosecutor and i was a prosecutor, the one thing we tried to do is keep control of our witnesses. you'd have them testify once ind beat up your witness at trial. look at what happened in this case. they're going to give statements to eric holder, you know, to the feds. they're going to give statements to the local attorney. they're giving statements to all the television stations. by the time they get on the stand, there's going to be so much material to attack them. it's really a prosecutor's nightmare. >> that's a fair point. >> i wish we could go on with this but i have to wrap it up, guys, a fascinating conversation, joey jackson, paul callan thanks so you both. still to come in "the newsroom," a dangerous message when it comes to kidnapped victims overseas. the u.s. will not pay a ransom for your return. other countries will. we'll talk about why that's putting americans at risk, next. the average person will probably drink something that is acidic on a daily basis. those acids made over time wear the enamel. i recommend pronamel. pronamel helps to defend the enamel from the acids in our diet... it helps to strengthen the teeth. ♪ ♪ imagine the luxury... of not being here. the power you want with the fuel economy you dream of. performance with a conscience. this is volvo innovating for you. and i'm here to tell homeowners that are 62 and older about a great way to live a better retirement. it's called a reverse mortgage. [ male announcer ] call right now to receive your free dvd and booklet with no obligation. it answers questions like how a reverse mortgage works, how much you qualify for, the ways to receive your money, and more. plus, when you call now, you'll get this magnifier with l.e.d. light absolutely free. when you call the experts at one reverse mortgage today, you'll learn the benefits of a government-insured reverse mortgage. it will eliminate your monthly mortgage payments and give you tax-free cash from the equity in your home. and here's the best part -- you still own your home. take control of your retirement today. ♪ ♪ urgent pleas this morning for the release of another american journalist held captive by isis terrorists. steven sotloff was pictured in the horrible video right after james foley was beheaded pi his captors. sotloff with a contributor to "time" magazine. he was kidnapped in august of 2013. his family and friends believe he will be the next to die unless the united states acts. petition to save sotloff's life at any cost has popped up online. it now has 94,000 signatures. but it's unlikely the united states can do much to save him. the white house said special forces tried to rescue journalist james foley, but the mission failed. as for ransom? forget about it. foley's family appeared sadly resigned. >> he was strong, courageous, loving to the end. we just highly recognize our little boy. i mean, he just, he was just a hero. >> and you know from the videos that his last words were "i wish i had more time." to see my family. >> so jim had a big heart. >> the soloffs are praying their son will not meet the same fate as james foley. is there anything the united states can really do to rescue sotloff at this point or any of these ten americans still being hold hostage overseas. let's talk about this, michelle kosinski, our white house correspondent and barbara starr covers the pentagon. thanks to both of you being here. barbara, the united states did try to rescue james foley at some point. why are we hearing about it now? >> well, it did happen last summer, carol. it was over july 4th weekend at a place called daraka in syria in the north, and we are hearing about it now because a number of news organizations were on to the story and about to pub lir about it, so the administration made the decision to acknowledge what it could and yet not give all the details. any hostage rescue situation especially by u.s. special forces, which unbelievably went into syria to try to do this, is really the most sensitive information, to reveal any classified tactics or procedures that they try and enact to make these missions successful is really very problematic in the view of the pentagon, because more americans are being held, because they may want to try and do this again. that said, there's an awful lot out there in the public arena about how these missions go down, because unfortunately, so many of them have taken place in recent years. so people have a fair understanding, but we believe there are a lot of classified details, the pentagon still trying to hold close to its vest in case they want to try this again. >> i understand. michelle, the united states does not pay ransom for hostages. according to foley's employer, "global post" isis wanted $135 million for foley's release. the thing is, other western countries like spain and germany do pay ransom to get their citizens returned. david brodie was kidnapped by the taliban, says this sends a dangerous mixed message. listen. >> i don't think the united states should and i think the broader problem is that there is no coherent strategy between the u.s. and europe about what to do about this problem. kidnappings are working. al qaeda affiliates raised at least $125 million from kidnapping in the last five years, they raised $60 million last year. there were journalists from france and spain who were held with foley by the islamic state, ransoms were paid for them, they're home safe now. jim foley's dead. >> so michelle, why isn't there any coherent strategy between countries? >> well the u.s. doesn't like to try to influence another country in a situation this sensitive and this dire, but we have reached out to the white house for more clarity on this, now that this has come up. i mean, i think david rohde got it exactly right, it does happen so that continues to encourage terrorists and that has been the u.s. stance that it's a bad idea to do that but while it keeps going on, you could argue that it does keep encouraging the same. at the same time, though, there's a huge argument for it being a real moral problem. if you rescue one of your citizens, but you're giving the terrorists $100 million, aren't you then contributing to the deaths potentially of other people? although it wouldn't be in such a direct way. that's why these terrorists, they know what they're doing. they know that they can play on people's emotions and their needs to get their own citizens home, and that's why these things work with certain countries. that's right. you would say there ought to be a cohesive strategy, but not every country likes to follow the pack and everybody likes to treat these things on a case by case basis. i think what's also interesting, that this new situation has brought up is that you can't reasonably expect that isis would think that the u.s. government would either pay a ransom that big, and remember, we don't know for sure that they asked the u.s. government for that amount. we know that they asked foley's employer, "global post" for that amount, and they can't expect that the u.s. would change its policy and change its course of action. why are they asking and then murdering this american citizen on tape? well, it seems like they want to get their point across, and that they know the attention that it will garner will be global, and maybe that's simply what they're after, because you can't imagine that they would think anything would change based on their demands, carol. >> who knows what goes on in the minds of isis terrorists? i don't know michelle but i get your point. barbara starr thanks to you, too. still to come in "the newsroom" -- >> my man. >> how are you doing, sir? >> you are the man. >> one top cop to the top lawyer, attorney general eric holder meets the man in charge of keeping peace in ferguson, missouri. from 2000 to 2011, on average 17 manufacturers a day shut down in america. there's no reason we can't manufacture in the united states. here at timbuk2, we make more than 70,000 custom bags a year, all right, just moments ago the u.s. attorney general eric holder who is back from ferguson, missouri, and back in washington, d.c., made a statement on ferguson and what's happening there. let's listen. >> the investigation that i launched more than a week ago during the course of my visit, i met with law enforcement as well as community leaders. we had i think constructive discussions about the importance of maintaining peace, averting future acts of violence or vandalism, and ensuring public safety, as well as the need for outreach and engagement to rebuild a fractured trust between the community and the law enforcement community that it serves. going forward, i will continue to get regular updates and to closely monitor the situation as it unfolds. now although our investigation will take time, although i cannot discuss the specifics of this case in greater detail since it remains open and very active, the people of ferguson can have confidence in the federal agents, investigators and prosecutors who are leading this process. our investigation will be fair. it will be thorough, and it will be independent. on a personal note i've seen a lot in my time as attorney general but few things have affected me as greatly as my visit to ferguson. i had the chance to meet with the family of michael brown. i spoke to them not just as attorney general but as a father of a teenage son myself. they, like so many in ferguson, want answers. in my conversations with dozens of people in ferguson yesterday, it was clear that this shooting incident has brought to the surface underlying tensions that have existed for many years. there is a history to these tensions and that history simmers in more communities than just ferguson. law enforcement has a role to play in reducing tensions as well, as the brother of a retired law enforcement officer, i know firsthand that our men and women in uniform perform their duties in the face of tremendous threats, and significant personal risk. they put their lives on the line every day and they often have to make split-second decisions. the national outcry we have seen speaks to a sense of mistrust, and mutual suspicion that can take hold in the relationship between law enforcement and certain communities. i wanted the people of ferguson to know that i personally understood that mistrust. i wanted them to know that, while so much else may be uncertain, this attorney general and this department of justice stands with the people of ferguson. i hope the relative calm that we witnessed overnight last night can be enduring. to a person yesterday, the people i met take great pride in their town and despite the mistrust that exists, they reject the violence that we have seen over the past couple of weeks. in that sense, while i went to ferguson to provide' assurance, in fact, they gave me hope. my commitment to them is that long after this tragic story no longer receives this level of attention, the justice department will continue to stand with ferguson. we will continue the conversation this incident has sparked about the need for trust building between law enforcement officers and the communities that they serve, about the appropriate use of force, and the need to ensure fair and equal treatment for everyone who comes into contact with the police. thank you. >> all right, u.s. attorney general eric holder talking about what he experienced in ferguson just yesterday. let's head there right now and check in with chris cuomo. did mr. holder's presence help? >> reporter: i think you have to say yes, carol, and here's why. he is a leader. he is someone who is able to express to this community that they are being respected, that change needs to happen, that their grievances are real, that he identifies with them as a person of color, and his own personal experience. you're dealing with a community who hasn't heard that from people in leadership as far as they're concerned, who do feel disenfranchised. these are not unique issues to ferguson it goes without saying. here is the balance for eric holder. can the attorney general deliver on these sympathies with what people here want to see as justice? very difficult for him as attorney general, more possible for him as a monitoring agent of local prosecutors, and the local government system here is going to be what decides this, and in terms of keeping the peace here right now, that job has fallen to a local state police captain here, who we've all become familiar with, he is in charge of making sure that the peace is kept. don lemon got to do a drive-along with the captain and here is some sound from that. >> chris, i'm sorry to interrupt, eric holder is now taking questions about ferguson at the u.s. justice department so let's listen in before we get to that don lemon piece. here he is. >> i think that seemed to satisfy a great number of people. it will take time for us to develop all the facts, develop all of the evidence and see where the case will ultimately go. and as i've shared that, i think people were concerned that there was not going to be the kind of investigation that i have promised, and that, in fact, will occur. we have been working i think very diligently out there. i've got a briefing from the fbi agents and the prosecutors who are involved in this case and i think significant progress has been made, but it will take some time, but i think patience is in abundance in ferguson. it doesn't mean that this thing should drag on. we will try to do this as expeditiously as we can. on the other hand, at the end of the day, it's most important that we get it right and that means that thoroughness, completeness is what we will emphasize. >> reporter: in each of these settlements comes with an assurance that they do not preclude -- >> all right, we're going to step away, so chris cuomo, back to you. you heard what eric holder said. he said this thing won't drag on but it is likely to drag on at least until october, right? >> reporter: his investigation of trayvon martin hasn't come to any resolution yet and that's because it's a very high bar for a civil rights case. i think the more immediate judgment for the attorney general's usefulness is how does he do in monitoring the ongoing investigation on the local level. the balance is this, carol. 'peeled to the people here who feel disenfranchised and there's a vacuum of leadership, period. he helped in that way, but this situation can't be judged on the basis of race. it has to be facts and circumstances. it has to be thoroughly investigated and put through the system the right way. can he ensure that? if that's not done right, the peace cannot be maintained in this community, and many others across the country. so that's the real test. >> all right, we also have our justice correspondent evan perez, on the phone. evan, do you think that eric holder will return to ferguson at some point? >> carol, i don't think that will happen any time soon. i think one of the things that he was trying to do was, as chris pointed out, was to send the message to the people, just to the young people here in this area that you know, look, i've been through what you're going through with the police, and i was able to obviously he's risen to the highest ranks in the government here, and so not only is he asking for patience but he's also telling them that essentially they can try to overcome this. i would tell you that, you know, as you know, carol and the story of eric holder is one, he's down and went through a lot of controversies, and yesterday was probably the high point of his time as attorney general, because not only did he come there to try to reassure the police that we've got your back -- >> evan, we're going to break away to go back to this press conference. he keeps taking questions about ferguson. he was asked what did you learn, here's how he answered. >> -- desire to be seen as equals, a real desire to have healing. there is a real fracture out there now. i think people are really trying to work their way through, and as i indicated to them, i think this is out of this tragedy comes a great opportunity for reforming that community. but i this i that's something that we can do nationwide. this has engendered a conversation we ought to have but we can't stop at that conversation. it's time to take concrete steps to make real the promise that i think now exists, and the justice department is hopefully going to be a leader in that effort, but citizens and state and local officials have to be a part of that effort as well. >> reporter: do you have any concerns that the local prosecutors will be impartial in their ability to do so is of concern to the justice department? >> well, as i said, our investigation is independent. it's going to be thorough. it's going to be fair. we have worked with the county prosecutor in developing evidence and sharing, done some interviews together, but i'm really confident that the end of the day, the investigation we are going to be doing will be thorough and fair. >> reporter: are there any concerns personally when you were there that immediately struck you, that you would have some concerns about? >> not as yet, no. >> reporter: mr. attorney general, mike oliver with cnn. i'd like to ask you about the murder of journalist james foley and interested in what role the justice department plays in the investigation of that, if you are trying to identify the specific individual, if there are any suspects, if you are looking at the leadership that might be involved in this, and also, i was interested in what justice, what role the justice department may have played, if any, in the negotiations for mr. foley's release, and the rescue efforts. >> well, first, let me just say that we are as appalled, i am as appalled by the brutal murder of jim foley as i think all the rest of us are. it was heartbreaking to see his parents yesterday, who showed a composure that, from my perspective, was almost incomprehensible, and my heart goes out to them. the justice department is actively pursuing justice in this case. we have an open criminal investigation, and those who would perpetrate such acts need to understand something. this justice department, this department of defense, this nation, we have long memories and our reach is very wide. we will not forget what happened and people will be held accountable, one way or the other. i also want to take note of the fact that you know, jim was a journalist, and he made tough choices to do the kinds of things that make our society great, information, information gathering, sharing with us, giving us a view of the world in very dangerous circumstances, and i think that in part that's what led to his death. he was a journalist, and he was a symbol of what's right about the united states, but as i said, the matter is an open investigation, and one that we will be pursuing very vigorously. >> reporter: was the department of justice familiar with the efforts to free him through any negotiations? >> i don't really comment on what i would consider national security matter. >> reporter: did you watch the video and what was your reaction if you did? >> i don't want to comment on that. >> all right, thank you. >> thank you, thank you, appreciate it. >> all right, eric holder is wrapping up this news conference right now. let's talk a little bit more about ferguson and head out to ferguson and check in with chris cuomo. you heard eric holder say that he stands with the people of ferguson. some might say what about the police officer, because we have yet to hear his side of the story. what about him? >> i think that's an excellent point, carol. i think that in these situations, you tend to play to the victim, because you want to make sure that this taking of life wasn't somehow, some way justifiable, right, because the last thing you want is a wrongful taking of life by a police officer or anybody else, but for eric holder, the bar is very simple but very difficult to achieve and that is the fair administration of justice under the law. will he pay attention to this prosecution with his office? will he make sure it's done the right way? because his own case will probably not come to anything, and i'm not saying that to be critical. it's just realistic. the bar for a civil rights case is high. we see it with trayvon martin. he was supposed to be looking and investigating there. no rea. a case. can he stay on top of the process and that inspires confidence and you need a leadership vacuum to be field and create the change in culture that allows the community to interact better with the people who are supposed to be protecting them. >> evan, perez, are you still with me? >> i am, carol. >> all right. eric holder is also careful to say he has family who are police, so perhaps he's throwing that out for a reason. >> right, exactly. i think that's one of the things that he was obviously trying to walk a fine line with his visit here. he didn't want to seem he's dumping on the cops and certainly not on this police officer, whose case is under investigation. so it's a fine line but i think one of the things he wanted to make sure was to tell the police he's got their back, he's going to try to improve the police situation here, offering support with training and so on, and at the same time, we fully expect that there was going to be more to come here. we expect that they're going to take a look at the policing tactics of the ferguson police department, and whether there's a bigger problem here, which is what you are hearing from the community as chris has pointed out in some of his interviews. you know, there's a lot of complaints from people here that, you know, that the police don't have a good relationship with the public, and so maybe i think you'll see in the next few weeks you'll hear that the justice department is taking a deeper look at that, carol. >> all right, evan perez, chris cuomo, both reporting for us this morning, thanks so both of you. i'll be right back. . these young men are brave. they are the next freedom fighters and it's just, to me, it's refreshing to see young people get involved with this type of movement because this can spark a whole nation to look and say, hey, listen, it really is inequality in america. and young people are getting involved and they're asking a simple but alarming question, am i next? this question came from a ferguson teenager who knew michael brown. time.com followed shane flowers on a recent night as he walked around his hometown trying to make sense of brown's killing. >> you can shoot somebody and they stop running. you ain't got to shoot them down, ain't got to shoot him in the head. he ain't even got no gun on him. that's crazy. i feel they should keep protesting until it's over with. if they don't get justice it's what's going to happen man. we're going to be out here every day until something happens. let's keep walking. i saw trayvon martin, george zimmerman get away with it, now it's another case. now if this police get away with it, now i'm telling you all, man, this ain't florida, this is st. louis, missouri. >> shane flowers joins us now from ferguson. welcome, shane. thank you for being with me. >> you're welcome. >> thanks for being here. i appreciate it. shane, i was just curious, before michael brown was shot, how did you feel about police? >> i mean, i felt like do i really -- do i trust the police anymore and are they -- are they here to protect us? >> do you think -- i mean what do you think the solution is? i know people have been protesting, including yourself. you've been peacefully protesting. what do you hope will come out of this? >> i hope that mike brown's family gets justice. >> do you think there is any possibility of the community mending fences with police? >> can you say that again? >> do you think there's any possibility of building a better relationship with police officers? >> i mean, some. it depends. some police officers are good. some are dirty cops. but i don't know. >> when you say some are good cops, why do you think they're good? >> because some cops are here to protect us and it's some cops that are racists and they -- it's a lot of trigger happy cops. >> do you plan to protest the rest of the week? are you done with it? >> no, i'm not done protesting. i'll be out here sometimes like one day i might not be, one day i might come out. >> all right. shane flowers, thank you so much for being with me. i appreciate it. the next hour of "cnn newsroom" after a break. [announcer] play close-good and close. help keep teeth clean and breath fresh with beneful healthy smile snacks. with soft meaty centers and teeth cleaning texture,it's dental that tastes so good. beneful healthy smile food and snacks. when a pro at any 2014 pga tour event sinks a hole-in-one, quicken loans will pay your mortgage for an entire year. that is how it's done. truly amazing! get in the hole-in-one sweepstakes. enter today at pgatour.com/quickenloans and you could have your mortgage paid for an entire year. good morning. i'm carol costello. thank you so much for joining me. we begin in missouri where for the first time since unarmed teenager michael brown was shot and killed protests remained relatively peaceful in the streets of ferguson. minutes ago the attorney general eric holder spoke about yesterday's visit to the community and he promised a fair investigation. >> the national outcry we have seen speaks to a sense of mistrust and mutual suspicion that can take hold in the relationship between law enforcement goes into the bedroom, two minutes in the bedroom, i hear an altercation outside. >> what did you do then? >> as -- when i heard the altercation, i look out the window and i see somebody out the window. >> the police car. the police officer was still in the vehicle. >> inside the vehicle. some kind of it tussle going on. he also had a friend also. he runs on the side of the car because all of a sudden they take off running. >> did you see -- >> i didn't. >> what the testle was around? was one person being pulled in or pulled out? >> exactly at the window. may have looked like he was trying to get away. >> you couldn't tell exactly what was wrong? >> yeah. but i just seen some kind of tussle through the window. >> he has a

Transcripts For MSNBCW The Last Word With Lawrence ODonnell 20140826

lingers. >> if this were not a police person we would expect the indictment to be a forthcoming. >> a lot of eyes on that local community. >> this community has no confidence in that individual. >> calls for it to be handed to a special prosecutor. >> someone disconnected from the facts of the case. >> governor nixon saying he is not going to do that. >> he has experience, he has office that the people heave have elected them. >> it's the wrong person at the wrong time. >> justice for michael brown jr. >> the parents and relatives of michael brown laid their 18-year-old to rest. >> michael was a bigwig guy. but he was a kind, gentle soul. >> this is not just about grieving. >> his death is not in vain. >> we're about to turn this moment into a movement. >> it's time to deal with policing. >> we can't stop fighting, we can't stop seeking justice. >> we have had enough of the senseless killing. we have had enough of it. >> it has been 17 days now since 18-year-old michael brown was shot and killed by ferguson, missouri, police officer darren wilson. while we still don't know what officer wilson says happened in that shooting, we are learning more about officer wilson. 2009, he began his career in law enforcement in jennings, missouri. on the jennings police department. the job lasted only two years because, as "the washington post" reports, the jennings police department was "a police department so troubled and with so much tension between white officers and black residents that the city council finally decided to disband it. new officers were brought in to create a credible department from scratch." darren wilson then moved on to the ferguson police department, which has now become the most troubled police department in missouri. on friday, st. louis county police had to suspend one of its officers when this online video emerged. >> i don't care whether you're christian or not. i personally believe in jesus christ as my lord and savior but i'm also a killer. i've killed a lot. and if i need to i'll kill a whole bunch more. if you don't want to get killed, don't show up in front of me, that simple. >> that was officer dan page who we saw doing crowd control earlier last week in ferguson. officer dan page's speech lasted over an hour and included this reference to president obama. >> now, this here is kenyon. i had my own airplane, i had me a lear jet, i said, i want to go find where that illegal alien claiming to be our documented, undocumented alien, claims to live. i flew to africa and went to our undocumented president's home. he was upon in kenya. >> joining me is liz brown, criminal defense attorney, and a columnist for "the st. louis american" newspaper, and jim cavenaugh, msnbc law enforcement analyst, retired atf special agent in charge. liz brown, first of all, to mr. page there who has been suspended, how surprised were you or shocked or how would you describe your feelings about discovering that this kind of thinking was in one of your local police departments? >> confirmation. i really believe, when i hear those words coming out of his mouth, it's the same energy, it's the same thought brothers, it's the same world view that i believe drove darren wilson to feel comfortable enough that he could shoot a child, leave a child on the ground for four hours, and then know that he was going to be covered by the county police department. that's -- it's confirmation, lawrence. >> and jim cavenaugh, officer page is in the police department that ferguson immediately handed over their investigation to. and that video has been online since april. nobody thought, until friday, there was anything wrong and the officer involved didn't think there was anything wrong with having that video online until friday. since april. >> it's out rage just, lawrence, really. not only that, not only his comments are outrageous, he's speaking to a group called the oath-keepers which is a group that's involved in crackpot conspiracy theories against the government, they're the group that -- one of the main groups at the bundy ranch, they've gone to towns in the west to try to fight civil authority. they claim constitution al backing by their even, oath-keepers. they're involved in a lot of the crackpot conspiracies and right-wing crazy conspiracy theories. to have this guy, even if he was talking to the rotary club, it would be outrageous. but he's talking to this group. i think the county police really have to take some actions here and do some searching. they can't have people like this, a 35-year police veteran, this is the guy also that pushed a cnn anchor, don lemon, and don's one of the nicest guys you'll ever talked to, i've talked to him a few times. it's outrageous, really. >> liz brown, michael brown's family asked for peace and calm today. in ferguson. they seem to have gotten that. there's absolutely nothing going on right now on the streets. but tell us how the -- what turned out to be this giant event of the funeral was received in that area today. >> i think that people -- they came to some peace with it. i think that people were inspired by it. but i also heard talk on the street about how they didn't want the world to interpret that this -- that pushing the pause button with the funeral meant that this issue was going to go away, that people were no longer going to be engaged in this action, that our issues have somehow been resolved. people are concerned about that in the rush to healing, that we are overlooking the fact that nothing has been addressed. nothing has been fixed. we can't heal unless we take the knife out and allow the wound to heal. and from the perspective of many people, the knife is still in. we don't have an indictment. we haven'tn document that's going to be drug out over a number of days. we have a grand jury that's only going to be given the information by a prosecutor that is at best not going to be able to issue or work on this case or deliver the evidence on this case because he's compromised. so people have mixed feelings. they are happy for the family that michael brown has been put to rest. but there's so much more ahead. there's so much more to do. and nebraska wants the steam to go out of this movement. >> jim cavenaugh, i want to read to you from the deadly force rule that the st. louis county police have -- i believe it's the same one the ferguson police have -- where they say, officers are authorized to use deadly force to protect themselves or others from imminent threat of death or serious physical injury. that's the standard rule that you read all over the country. and what i've been looking for in the evidence since this story emerged is, tell me what the threat of death or serious injury was to the police officer firing the weapon according to the accounts where michael brown is running away from him. or any one of the accounts, other than the close-quarter contact they seem to have had at the car, which i think is not clear what was going on there. but after that, where most of the bullets were fired, i can't see what in this evidence fits within the deadly force rule. >> exactly. i mean, it's a bifurcated incident. the incident in the car where the officer grabs michael brown's neck, there's pushing, shoving, maybe there's punching, the officer's injured in the face, he might have broke let'ser and like ankle brown went for the gun. if there's a struggle for an officer's gun, that's a struggle for your life. so that first shot -- you know, it could have been the shot in michael brown's forearm because the officer warned him, i'll shoot, i'll shoot, i'll shoot. when things happen like that, you know you might put your arm up. he could have had that first shot. so an argument could be made that maybe that is justified use of deadly force, fighting over the gun. but every shot after that running away, turning to surrender, those shots cannot be justified use of force. you can't shoot a person running away because he punched you, you can't shoot a person running away because he was involved in a struggle and robbery. by the nature of that crime you know there's not a weapon involved. so at the worst you have a serial bully. he punched a policeman, he punched someone at the store, and you can't shoot him for that. that's different than in you had an active shooter, say at newtown, running away from the officer, killed 10, 20 people, now you've got to stop him, that's a whole different use of force. you can't shoot a guy rubbing away, even if he punched everyone in town. you can't use deadly force that way. >> liz brown, here we are 17 days after this event and the police still have not offered any account, any story, to describe what this police officer actually did after he got out of his car, which is when most of the bullets were fired. it is when, we now know, michael brown was shot and hit with the bullets that killed him. there's absolutely no account from the police about that. and it's oddly -- there's an odd echo to that from the day that this happened where michael brown's body was left on the street for 4 1/2 hours, an unprecedented period of time, in a situation like that. and we now are left with this unprecedented lack of information from the police about what happened there. >> but you know what happens in this absence of information on the part of darren wilson? darren wilson and his defense attorney have the opportunity to see and to hear and to examine and to dissect everything that everybody else says. all the other evidence that's out there. so when darren wilson, if he chooses, and i believe that he will, when he goes into that grand jury to testify, he will have at his beck and call, he will have all of the statements that other people have made. so when he makes his statement, his statement will fit those other statements. he'll be able to make a statement that will be uncontradicted. and like you said, this is unprecedented. i have never seen anything like this, that there has been this kind of silence on the part of the defendant and the evidence for someone to be charged. it's amazing. >> lizz brown and jim cavenaugh, thank you both for joining me tonight. coming up, michael brown's family and friends and many, many more said good-bye to him today. and there is news tonight about action president obama is taking against the islamic state in the aftermath of the execution of the american photo journalist james foley. and in shark news tonight, a great white was spotted not far from where "jaws" was filmed in massachusetts today, and yes, we have shark video. a new pew poll finds most black people and most white people in the united states believe that black people and white people get along pretty well. 75% of white people and 64% of black people think that the two get along very well, or pretty well, compared to four years ago. that is 2 points lower for white people and 9 points lower for black people. just 28% of all americans said that black people and white people don't get along well. up next, the controversy that erupted today when the "new york times" said michael brown is, their words, "no angel." it was the biggest decision king's hawaiian had faced, since robert taira opened his first bakery in a small hawaiian town. making bread so good, that people bought two loaves one to take home, and one to eat on the way. so good, they grew from here. to here. to here. but to grow again, to the east coast they needed a new factory, but where? fortunately, they get financing from ge capital. we not only have teams dedicated to the food industry, we're also part of ge, a company that's built hundreds of factories. so we could bring in experts to help king's hawaiian make sense of transportation routes, supply chains, labor pools, and zoning to help them make the right decision. and, i'd like to think, to make their founder proud. if you just need a loan, just call a bank. at ge capital, we're builders. and what we know, can help you grow. i know that michael would be smiling a big, gentle smile that he always gives whenever he greeted you. because michael was big guy. but he was a kind, gentle soul. michael also stated to the family that one day, the world would know his name. he did not know how his name would be remembered. but we're here today remembering the name of michael brown. >> that was eric davis, michael brown's cousin, speaking to the thousands of people gathered this morning at friendly temple missionary baptist church in st. louis for the funeral of 18-year-old michael brown. notable attendees included reverie jesse jackson, spike lee, missouri senator clair mccaskill, and several members of the house of representatives. members of the families of trayvon martin and jordan davis also attended the service. michael brown's parents did not speak but his stepmother, cal brown, said this. >> i met him three years ago. he was a boy. but he evolved into a man. a good man. and he just wanted so much -- he wanted to go to college, he wanted to have a family, he wanted to be a good father. he said, i'm going to shake the world. and i promise you that he has. >> joining me from ferguson, mark thompson, host of "make it plain" on sirius xm raid you, and altonio french who represents the 25th ward of st. louis, both at michael brown's funeral today. antonio french, tell us how -- two things i was watching blending together. one was family and friends' reminiscence about michael, the kind of things that you would have at any funeral. then the kind of larger frame that reverend al sharpton was using in his talk at the funeral. how were those two things blended? >> yeah, i think today's event served two purposes. one, for the family of michael brown. provided a sense of closure. it provided an opportunity to begin and another step in the process of healing. but also for the community. that's gone through a lot these last two weeks. thousands of people came to show their support for the brown family. but also, as an opportunity for us as a community to also begin that road to healing and to have a little closure to this tragic death of this young man. so i think the speakers today did a good job of blending those two interests. and especially reverend sharpton, i think he did a very good job painting the big picture of what this is about. >> mark thompson, what went through your mind as you sat there in the service? >> well, i would agree with antonio. but the thing i would add to it is that this family could have had and had a right to a private service. and they chose to share their grief with the nation and the world. and allow the rest of us to participate in it. so obviously they get the global nature of what happened to michael. the other thing too that went through my mind is that this was a service not only of memory and honor but a service of dignity. michael was not treated with dignity when he was killed, nor when he was left out in the street, lawrence, for over four hours. the family deserved to bury their son with dignity and that's what happened today. and i was very, very proud that that happened. proud to be a part of it. and i think the entire country needed that. this is one step towards some type of closure. we won't have full closure until there's justice done. but it was one step toward that. >> an tobe i don't french, i want to go to a controversy that broke out today before and during the funeral, about an article in the no times, when i thought was a pretty solid article, talking about michael brown and what we know about michael brown. but it used the phrase at a certain point in the article that michael brown was "no angel." those two words, no angel, created a real internet girt backlash against the "new york times," it provoked once again the public editor of "the new york times," margaret sullivan, to do a special posting today about the "new york times" coverage of ferguson and she said that choice of words was a regrettable mistake. later in her report on it, she said "no angel" was a blunder. what would you say to explain the feelings that are out there, both in ferguson and nationally, about the sensitivity to these kinds of references to michael brown? >> yeah, i was disappointed. i thought the timing of that was, at the very least, insensitive. the day of his funeral. and i think a lot -- we've seen different times wear coming from the "new york times" today, even from the local ferguson police department, things that would act to disparage the name of michael brown as the victim. but i think we just need to keep in mind the facts of the case. this is the case of two human beings. one had a weapon, one did not. one wound up dead. and so the community here is eager to get all the facts out about mr. brown and of course the officer, darren wilson, in a trial. and the quicker the county prosecutor indicts, the better, and we can get on with what we'll really want, which is justice, whatever that may be. >> mark chancellor, i want to read you a comment that the author of the piece gave to the "new york times" public editor about it. he himself is a 31-year-old black man, and he said, i understand the concerns and i get it, he said, i agree that no angel was not a good choice of words. he explained it was meant to play off an anecdote earlier in the piece, and once he explained that i got what he was trying for. obviously it did not work. and i didn't understand why he was using that phrase without his explanation of it. but in the media you never want to get yourself into a spot where, in order to understand what i meant i've got to get into this elaborate explanation of it. >> right. no, i would agree. it was a poor choice of words. but as far as i'm concerned, spiritually incorrect. michael is a martyr. and he's someone who did not earn his suffering. we often say, an unearned suffering is redemptive. so whatever he meant, whatever anybody thinks, whatever the police chief here would say about michael, whatever they thought about him, all martyrs are 18 yeses. whatever he thought michael was before, he most certainly in death is an angel now. >> antonio french, i want to get your reaction to some of the things we've been learning the last few days, especially that video of the st. louis county police officer and an incredible over hour-long rant. it's been online since april, no one thought that was an issue, the officer involved didn't think there was any real problem with that. as soon as it emerged to the news media on friday, he had to be suspended. as someone who's working there, i wanted to get your reaction to when you discovered it. did that -- was that a huge shock to you, a huge surprise to you, that somebody with those kinds of views could be active in the local police there? >> no, it wasn't shocking at all. let me say that the vast majority of men and women in uniform serve honorably and they are good police officers in the community. but those few that are bad apples damage that relationship, that sacred relationship between community and police. and i think what we're experiencing here in st. louis right now is a completely fractured trust. and we have a lot of work to repair that. but the young men in this community have interacted with guys like that very often. and they know better than most that there are way too many officers with those kind of views that patrol their neighborhoods. so we've got to do a better job of weeding those guys out, exposing them, and make the police department more reflective and sensetive to our community. >> and mark thompson, there's probably, my guess is a very large racial division in reaction to that video. african-americans not being so surprised by it or even shocked at all, and white americans, a lot of them looking at that video saying, that's absolutely shocking that a police officer would be up there saying those things. >> yeah, it is. but as antonio said, this is something that obviously is an ongoing reality and even a daily reality. not not only young men here in ferguson, but elsewhere. as we say, since this movement started, there's a ferguson near you. and we've seen it manifested not only -- this has become ground zero for this struggle, but let's face it, lawrence. michael is one of a long list of killings, just in the past few months. from eric garner, izel ford in l.a., the beat are of marlene pinnock on a california highway, michelle accuse sew in phoenix, arizona. john crawford in ohio. omar obrega, a latino brother, beaten to death by lapd as well. jimmy powell in st. louis city. this is a very frightening time. we've seen this happen a lot but not so often as such a concentrations fashion. it would seem that police this past month have developed an appetite for strange fruit again with all of these killings. when we look pack at our history, we know we've overcome a history of lynchings. in 1919, the greatest number of lynchings ever recorded in this country was known as the red summer. i'm afraid, as this summer has gone by, and because of the color the police wear, because of all these killings, we may have to end up calling this the blue summer of 2014. >> mark thompson and antonio french, thank you very much for joining me tonight from ferguson. >> thank you, lawrence. coming up, we have some breaking news on white house action today over syria as some are of course continuing to push for a war against isis. and later, new pictures of the earthquake aftermath here in california. and we have great white shark video today. ing for a convenien to fill your viagra prescription online? go to viagra.com to find out about viagra home delivery. millions of men have some degree of erectile dysfunction. talk to your doctor, if viagra is right for you, you can fill your prescription at your pharmacy, or check out viagra home delivery and get started at viagra.com ask your doctor if your heart is 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"the surveillance flights ar significant step toward direct american military action in syria, an intervention that could alter the battlefield in syria's three-year civil war." over the weekend islamic state forces seized a syrian military base, giving them control over much of a province that borders turkey. despite over more than 90 air strikes in iraq against the islamic state, drug one on saturday near mosul dam, president obama's sharpest critics are not satisfied. >> we need to hit them in syria. we need to help the free syrian army mobilize so they can fight them on the ground. when it comes to ground troops if our military commanders tell us that we need ground forces to defeat isil, which is a threat to the united states, so be it. we have got to go in and stop these guys. >> today the syrian foreign minister said that any strike which is not coordinated with the government will be considered as aggression. joining me now is nbc news counterterrorism analyst and former director of the national counterterrorism center, michael l lyer. also msnbc analyst e.j. dionne. e.j., i always want these discussions to begin with the fact that this is the aftermath of the iraq war. this is what we are dealing with. the islamic state was not there before we decided to invade iraq this time. >> no, i think that's right. and we have been dealing with that aftermath for a long time. we didn't plan well going in, it was a bad idea going in. but now we're stuck with the situation. what's odd about the moment now, i think, is that we seem to be getting to something much closer to a consensus on iraq. the first time we've had anything close to that. yes, you've got linsey graham and folks saying we should send ground troops. but i don't think -- the vast majority of americans certainly don't want to send ground troops. but there is agreement that isis, isil, is dangerous. is very dangerous. and that we should try to contain them and push them back. and that's why we're helping the kurds, that's why we're doing the air strikes, it's why i suspect obama's working his way toward attacking them in syria. and i think linsey graham will get part of his wish. it looks like the administration is stepping up help to the free syrian army where you've got a civil war within the civil war there. and they're the people who would take on isil in syria. so i think we're closer to a consensus than we've been for a long time. >> michael lyer, how do you -- how does the united states hurt the islamic state in syria without helping assad? >> it's very, very difficult. first we have to figure out exactly who the islamic state is and where exactly they are in syria. a lot of surveillance flights and other intelligence collection going on now is to at least provide the president with options to strike, if he chooses to do so. now, there is going to be some benefit to assad if we choose to strike isil. the fact is we'd have to do that to make tactical gains against isil, knowing that what we're really trying to do is provide more space for a more moderate free syrian army to counter assad. now, that's a lot harder today than it was two years ago. but it's really the only game in town. >> e.j., the "new york times" records that in order to try to avoid helping assad very much, the pentagon is drafting military options that would strike the militant islamic state in iraq and syria or isis near the largely erased border between syria and iraq, as opposed to more deeply inside syria and would bolster american support for the moderate syrian rebel s mr. assad as their main foe. there's the trick they want to try to perform, e.j. >> no, that's right. i was talking to a western diplomat today who made the point that given the civil war within the civil war, you probably could, he was arguing, hit isil in ways that wouldn't help assad that much. on record saying assad could go even as we're going against one of his main opponents. the other key here is the united states is being very careful because it does not want to look like it is waging a war against sunni islam. and the administration knows it needs a lot of sunni support including sunnis inside iraq if they're going to turn isil back. and that's another sort of complexity about getting involved in the syrian fight. >> michael leiter, some people talk about destroying the islamic stays or stopping it and they have estimates the islamic state forces are larger than al qaeda ever was. what is the even remotest possibility of stopping or eliminating the islamic state? >> lawrence, we have to do it in stages. and i actually think it's very likely, and not all that difficult, to stop them in iraq and then to roll them back in iraq. they probably have about 4,000 to 5,000 troops in iraq. and u.s. air power and a capable iraqi ground force can get them rolled back. the much harder question remains, syria. and destruction of isis i think really is going to be a multi-year effort. we can reduce their capability, but destroying them is going to take some time. we have to realize that their initial reaction to u.s. involvement is probably going to make them even more inclined to attack the u.s. and the west more quickly. i think that's their strategic goal anyway. but this will, at least initially, be a little kicking the hornet's nest. and that means that you have to have an even stronger defensive posture to avoid those sorts of attacks. >> e.j., the islamic state is a passion-driven movement. you can destroy the bodies. how do you destroy the passion and how do you then eliminate it so that it doesn't recur? >> that is a good question. i mean, the fact is you have all kinds of sort of radical islamic groups who have -- who are very factionalized. these guys who were too radical for al qaeda, which tells you where we're going, i don't know if you ever completely eliminate that impulse among some parts of islam. i think you sort of take on a particular group like this knowing that that sentiment may morph into another group somewhere else but you just have to keep pushing it back. >> e.j. dionne and michael leiter, thank you for joining me tonight. coming up, there was a great white shark today up in massachusetts in "jaws" territory. this is the first power plant in the country to combine solar and natural gas at the same location. during the day, we generate as much electricity as we can using solar. at night and when it's cloudy, we use more natural gas. this ensures we can produce clean electricity whenever our customers need it. ♪ ♪ [music] defiance is in our bones. defiance never grows old. citracal maximum. easily absorbed calcium plus d. beauty is bone deep. 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"you' "gonna need a bigger boat." joining me is the director of shark research. this is close to home for me, i used to swim at that beach when i was a kid. i'm going to be in that area this weekend. how scared should i be? >> you shouldn't be scared but you certainly should be respectful. probably since you were a kid, there's a lot more white sharks there in that area. in fact, in large part because of taking care of the marine mammals, the seal populations are back up and that's one of their favorite foods. of course the white sharks are also protected both nationally and in state waters. so there are more white sharks out there. you need to remember when you enter that you're entering a wilderness. it ain't like it was when you were a kid. >> how big is 15 feet? is that a -- that's one of the bigger versions of that shark, isn't it? >> yeah, that's a good-sized shark. they get to about 18, 19 feet. in life. but most of the time they're smaller than that. on a 15-footer as good-sized one and it's an adult. >> can we take any consolation from him being 150 yards offshore, which most swimmers from the beach aren't going to get close to? >> yeah, i think that's a good consolation, although it's not assurance that that animal wouldn't come closer to shore. keep in mind that seals, they come out of the water and the reason there's sharks around is they form colonies on the shores and come out and bask in the sun. so, you know, a favorite place for them is -- for white sharks is to be near those colonies. so clearly don't go in the water if you're adjacent to the well-established seal colonies. >> now, how do we track this shark? will we know in the next few days where this shark has gone? >> if it happened to have a tag in it. scientists have been putting tags in a lot of these sharks. fit happened to have that we could follow it in real time. but the reality is these are highly migratory animals and that might be on the other side of the bay by tomorrow, might be on the other side of the bay right now. they move up and down, back and forth. the best way frankly is to have lifeguards with binoculars on the beach which is basically how we do it here in florida, although white sharks are not common in florida. we have plenty of other sharks and the lifeguards routinely see sharks come, they pull people out of the way once the shark has gone by they let the people back in the water and call their buddies up the beach to say one's coming your way. >> do great whites like that 15-footer travel alone? >> yeah, these are solitary animals. and the only time we see them together is if there's a common food source. for instance, a seal colony might be attractive to bring in a number of white sharks. it's the reason of course why we're seeing so many of them in recent years in the cape cod area is because as that seal colony has gotten bigger, there's more white sharks in the area. and of course there's more humans out there looking for them too. we now have cell phones that take pictures and we social media them as soon as we see them. so it's a story instantly. >> george burgess, thank you very much for joining us tonight. >> good to be with you. coming up, a 6.0 earthquake here in california yesterday. in northern california. and still there is a chance of significant aftershocks this week. the mayor of napa, california, will join me. and grew, until to keep growing, they needed a new factory, but where? fortunately, they get financing from ge capital. we're part of ge, a company that's built hundreds of factories. so we can bring in experts to help them evaluate costs, incentives, and zoning to make a decision that would make their founder proud. if you just need a loan, just call a bank. at ge capital, we're builders. and what we know, can help you grow. 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>> just that. i'm speechless. >> residents in the town of napa, california, are still assessing the damage one day after a six.1 magnitude earthquake shook the town. after the pavement buckled, more than 200 people were sent to the hospital, some with serious injuries. more than 100 structures have been red tagged in napa county declaring them unsafe to live or work in. napa's wine industry took a big hit with many wineries losing bottles of wine and facing damaged wine tanks and barrels. there have been dozens of aftershocks in the area tonight. experts say that the probability of a strong, damaging aftershock in the next week or so is about 25%. joining me now is the mayor of napa, jill tekel. mayor, where were you when the earthquake hit? >> you know, i was actually in monterey, california. i got a phone call at 4:00 a.m. saying i better hop in the car and get back really quick. so i was not here when the earthquake hit. >> and the coverage sunday morning in california, i can tell you here on the local los angeles stations they just took the feed from the san francisco stations with the live coverage nonstop for hours and hours with these really some of the really most beautiful buildings in california were hurt by this, weren't they? >> yes. some of our historic buildings that we were really proud to have part of our downtown really got shook up in the earthquake. >> and what is the plan for digging out of this? >> well, we've got to individually look at each building. i think you're right, there are a lot of red tags right now because we're being overly cautious to be sure that nobody gets hurt. safety is just number one when you've got a situation like this. so we've got fences around the properties that have sustained some damage to keep people away. and we're going to send structural engineers in to see what the options are going forward. >> and what's happening to displaced people who have lost their homes or cans stay in their red-tagged homes? >> we've got a great salvation army and american red cross. we have a shelter in town. people go to the shelter and residents of napa come out and say, come to my home. they don't stay in the shelter very long, somebody takes them home to their home. >> how localized was the damage? how much damage is there outside of the city of napa? >> you know, it was closer to american canyon. and it had very little damage. further away was vallejo. quite a bit of damage. vallejo also has an historic old town and i think that's where most of the damage was. so it's the older historic buildings that seem to have not fared as well structurally. certainly all of us in the neighborhoods had everything rocked. when i got back home, everything was knocked over. all the shelves were over. all the wine was -- enough of the wine had spilled and broken. so there's a lovely smell of wine in the house. but it's not drinkable right now. >> that smell apparently is all over the area up there. >> yeah. >> the winemakers were hurt badly, weren't they? >> yes, yes. they lost a lot of product. and there were terrible pictures of just them not being able to get into their wineries, barrels, smashed carneros outside the city of napa i think was hit the worst. >> mayor jill tekel of napa, california, thank you very much for joining us tonight. and good luck dealing with the aftermath of that earthquake. 6.1 is pretty bad. >> yeah, yeah. it's going to take awhile. so thank you. >> thank you. chris hayes is up next. tonight, we are all in. >> we will demand equal justice for michael brown jr.! >> the calls for justice continue as thousands gather to lay michael brown to rest. >> michael brown's blood is crying from the ground. >> tonight, the latest from ferguson. plus the latest on why darren wilson's last police department was completely disbanded. and what communities can do when policing gets out of control. >> the only thing that messes up good apples is if you don't take the rotten apples out of the bushel. >> then senator chris murphy on the recent escalation in the simmering war between russia and ukraine. and as the hunt for the killer of james wright foley continues, is an expanded attack on isis imminent? >> the president thus far has not made a decision to order additional military action in syria. >> "all in" starts right now.

Transcripts For MSNBCW The Last Word With Lawrence ODonnell 20140826

>> a lot of eyes on that local community. >> this community has no confidence in that individual. >> calls for it to be handed to a special prosecutor. >> someone disconnected from the facts of the case. >> governor nixon saying he is not going to do that. >> he has experience, he has office that the people heave have elected them. >> it's the wrong person at the wrong time. >> justice for michael brown jr. >> the parents and relatives of michael brown laid their 18-year-old to rest. >> michael was a bigwig guy. but he was a kind, gentle soul. >> this is not just about grieving. >> his death is not in vain. >> we're about to turn this moment into a movement. >> it's time to deal with policing. >> we can't stop fighting, we can't stop seeking justice. >> we have had enough of the senseless killing. we have had enough of it. >> it has been 17 days now since 18-year-old michael brown was shot and killed by ferguson, missouri, police officer darren wilson. while we still don't know what officer wilson says happened in that shooting, we are learning more about officer wilson. 2009, he began his career in law enforcement in jennings, missouri. on the jennings police department. the job lasted only two years because, as "the washington post" reports, the jennings police department was "a police department so troubled and with so much tension between white officers and black residents that the city council finally decided to disband it. new officers were brought in to create a credible department from scratch." darren wilson then moved on to the ferguson police department, which has now become the most troubled police department in missouri. on friday, st. louis county police had to suspend one of its officers when this online video emerged. >> i don't care whether you're christian or not. i personally believe in jesus christ as my lord and savior but i'm also a killer. i've killed a lot. and if i need to i'll kill a whole bunch more. if you don't want to get killed, don't show up in front of me, that simple. >> that was officer dan page who we saw doing crowd control earlier last week in ferguson. officer dan page's speech lasted over an hour and included this reference to president obama. >> now, this here is kenyon. i had my own airplane, i had me a lear jet, i said, i want to go find where that illegal alien claiming to be our documented, undocumented alien, claims to live. i flew to africa and went to our undocumented president's home. he was upon in kenya. >> joining me is lizz brown, criminal defense attorney, and a columnist for "the st. louis american" newspaper, and jim cavanaugh, msnbc law enforcement analyst, retired atf special agent in charge. lizz brown, first of all, to mr. page there who has been suspended, how surprised were you or shocked or how would you describe your feelings about discovering that this kind of thinking was in one of your local police departments? >> confirmation. i really believe, when i hear those words coming out of his mouth, it's the same energy, it's the same thought brothers, it's the same world view that i believe drove darren wilson to feel comfortable enough that he could shoot a child, leave a child on the ground for four hours, and then know that he was going to be covered by the county police department. that's -- it's confirmation, lawrence. >> and jim cavanaugh, officer page is in the police department that ferguson immediately handed over their investigation to. and that video has been online since april. nobody thought, until friday, there was anything wrong and the officer involved didn't think there was anything wrong with having that video online until friday. since april. >> it's out rage just, lawrence, really. not only that, not only his comments are outrageous, he's speaking to a group called the oath-keepers which is a group that's involved in crackpot conspiracy theories against the government, they're the group that -- one of the main groups at the bundy ranch, they've gone to towns in the west to try to fight civil authority. they claim constitutional backing by their even, oath-keepers. they're involved in a lot of the crackpot conspiracies and right-wing crazy conspiracy theories. to have this guy, even if he was talking to the rotary club, it would be outrageous. but he's talking to this group. i think the county police really have to take some actions here and do some searching. they can't have people like this, a 35-year police veteran, this is the guy also that pushed a cnn anchor, don lemon, and don's one of the nicest guys you'll ever talked to, i've talked to him a few times. it's outrageous, really. >> lizz brown, michael brown's family asked for peace and calm today. in ferguson. they seem to have gotten that. there's absolutely nothing going on right now on the streets. but tell us how the -- what turned out to be this giant event of the funeral was received in that area today. >> i think that people -- they came to some peace with it. i think that people were inspired by it. but i also heard talk on the street about how they didn't want the world to interpret that this -- that pushing the pause button with the funeral meant that this issue was going to go away, that people were no longer going to be engaged in this action, that our issues have somehow been resolved. people are concerned about that in the rush to healing, that we are overlooking the fact that nothing has been addressed. nothing has been fixed. we can't heal unless we take the knife out and allow the wound to heal. and from the perspective of many people, the knife is still in. we don't have an indictment. we haven'tn document that's going to be drug out over a number of days. we have a grand jury that's only going to be given the information by a prosecutor that is at best not going to be able to issue or work on this case or deliver the evidence on this case because he's compromised. so people have mixed feelings. they are happy for the family that michael brown has been put to rest. but there's so much more ahead. there's so much more to do. and nebraska wants the steam to go out of this movement. >> jim cavanaugh, i want to read to you from the deadly force rule that the st. louis county police have -- i believe it's the same one the ferguson police have -- where they say, officers are authorized to use deadly force to protect themselves or others from imminent threat of death or serious physical injury. that's the standard rule that you read all over the country. and what i've been looking for in the evidence since this story emerged is, tell me what the threat of death or serious injury was to the police officer firing the weapon according to the accounts where michael brown is running away from him. or any one of the accounts, other than the close-quarter contact they seem to have had at the car, which i think is not clear what was going on there. but after that, where most of the bullets were fired, i can't see what in this evidence fits within the deadly force rule. >> exactly. i mean, it's a bifurcated incident. the incident in the car where the officer grabs michael brown's neck, there's pushing, shoving, maybe there's punching, the officer's injured in the face, he might have broke let'ser and like ankle brown went for the gun. if there's a struggle for an officer's gun, that's a struggle for your life. so that first shot -- you know, it could have been the shot in michael brown's forearm because the officer warned him, i'll shoot, i'll shoot, i'll shoot. when things happen like that, you know you might put your arm up. he could have had that first shot. so an argument could be made that maybe that is justified use of deadly force, fighting over the gun. but every shot after that running away, turning to surrender, those shots cannot be justified use of force. you can't shoot a person running away because he punched you, you can't shoot a person running away because he was involved in a struggle and robbery. by the nature of that crime you know there's not a weapon involved. so at the worst you have a serial bully. he punched a policeman, he punched someone at the store, and you can't shoot him for that. that's different than in you had an active shooter, say at newtown, running away from the officer, killed 10, 20 people, now you've got to stop him, that's a whole different use of force. you can't shoot a guy rubbing away, even if he punched everyone in town. you can't use deadly force that way. >> lizz brown, here we are 17 days after this event and the police still have not offered any account, any story, to describe what this police officer actually did after he got out of his car, which is when most of the bullets were fired. it is when, we now know, michael brown was shot and hit with the bullets that killed him. there's absolutely no account from the police about that. and it's oddly -- there's an odd echo to that from the day that this happened where michael brown's body was left on the street for 4 1/2 hours, an unprecedented period of time, in a situation like that. and we now are left with this unprecedented lack of information from the police about what happened there. >> but you know what happens in this absence of information on the part of darren wilson? darren wilson and his defense attorney have the opportunity to see and to hear and to examine and to dissect everything that everybody else says. all the other evidence that's out there. so when darren wilson, if he chooses, and i believe that he will, when he goes into that grand jury to testify, he will have at his beck and call, he will have all of the statements that other people have made. so when he makes his statement, his statement will fit those other statements. he'll be able to make a statement that will be uncontradicted. and like you said, this is unprecedented. i have never seen anything like this, that there has been this kind of silence on the part of the defendant and the evidence for someone to be charged. it's amazing. >> lizz brown and jim cavanaugh, thank you both for joining me tonight. coming up, michael brown's family and friends and many, many more said good-bye to him today. and there is news tonight about action president obama is taking against the islamic state in the aftermath of the execution of the american photo journalist james foley. and in shark news tonight, a great white was spotted not far from where "jaws" was filmed in massachusetts today, and yes, we have shark video. ♪ [ male announcer ] since we began, mercedes-benz has pioneered many breakthroughs. ♪ breakthroughs in design... breakthroughs in safety... in engineering... and technology. and now our latest creation breaks one more barrier. presenting the cla. starting at $29,900. ♪ sfx: sounds of marching band and crowd cheering starting at $29,900. sfx: sounds of marching band and crowd cheering so, i'm walking down the street, sfx: sounds of marching band and crowd 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a convenient way to have prescription viagra shipped straight to you. go to viagra.com to get started. i know that michael would be smiling a big, gentle smile that he always gives whenever he greeted you. because michael was big guy. but he was a kind, gentle soul. michael also stated to the family that one day, the world would know his name. he did not know how his name would be remembered. but we're here today remembering the name of michael brown. >> that was eric davis, michael brown's cousin, speaking to the thousands of people gathered this morning at friendly temple missionary baptist church in st. louis for the funeral of 18-year-old michael brown. notable attendees included reverie jesse jackson, spike lee, missouri senator clair mccaskill, and several members of the house of representatives. members of the families of trayvon martin and jordan davis also attended the service. michael brown's parents did not speak but his stepmother, cal brown, said this. >> i met him three years ago. he was a boy. but he evolved into a man. a good man. and he just wanted so much -- he wanted to go to college, he wanted to have a family, he wanted to be a good father. he said, i'm going to shake the world. and i promise you that he has. >> joining me from ferguson, mark thompson, host of "make it plain" on sirius xm raid you, and altonio french who represents the 25th ward of st. louis, both at michael brown's funeral today. antonio french, tell us how -- two things i was watching blending together. one was family and friends' reminiscence about michael, the kind of things that you would have at any funeral. then the kind of larger frame that reverend al sharpton was using in his talk at the funeral. how were those two things blended? >> yeah, i think today's event served two purposes. one, for the family of michael brown. provided a sense of closure. it provided an opportunity to begin and another step in the process of healing. but also for the community. that's gone through a lot these last two weeks. thousands of people came to show their support for the brown family. but also, as an opportunity for us as a community to also begin that road to healing and to have a little closure to this tragic death of this young man. so i think the speakers today did a good job of blending those two interests. and especially reverend sharpton, i think he did a very good job painting the big picture of what this is about. >> mark thompson, what went through your mind as you sat there in the service? >> well, i would agree with antonio. but the thing i would add to it is that this family could have had and had a right to a private service. and they chose to share their grief with the nation and the world. and allow the rest of us to participate in it. so obviously they get the global nature of what happened to michael. the other thing too that went through my mind is that this was a service not only of memory and honor but a service of dignity. michael was not treated with dignity when he was killed, nor when he was left out in the street, lawrence, for over four hours. the family deserved to bury their son with dignity and that's what happened today. and i was very, very proud that that happened. proud to be a part of it. and i think the entire country needed that. this is one step towards some type of closure. we won't have full closure until there's justice done. but it was one step toward that. >> antonio french, i want to go to a controversy that broke out today before and during the funeral, about an article in the no times, when i thought was a pretty solid article, talking about michael brown and what we know about michael brown. but it used the phrase at a certain point in the article that michael brown was "no angel." those two words, no angel, created a real internet girt backlash against the "new york times," it provoked once again the public editor of "the new york times," margaret sullivan, to do a special posting today about the "new york times" coverage of ferguson and she said that choice of words was a regrettable mistake. later in her report on it, she said "no angel" was a blunder. what would you say to explain the feelings that are out there, both in ferguson and nationally, about the sensitivity to these kinds of references to michael brown? >> yeah, i was disappointed. i thought the timing of that was, at the very least, insensitive. the day of his funeral. and i think a lot -- we've seen different times wear coming from the "new york times" today, even from the local ferguson police department, things that would act to disparage the name of michael brown as the victim. but i think we just need to keep in mind the facts of the case. this is the case of two human beings. one had a weapon, one did not. one wound up dead. and so the community here is eager to get all the facts out about mr. brown and of course the officer, darren wilson, in a trial. and the quicker the county prosecutor indicts, the better, and we can get on with what we'll really want, which is justice, whatever that may be. >> mark chancellor, i want to read you a comment that the author of the piece gave to the "new york times" public editor about it. he himself is a 31-year-old black man, and he said, i understand the concerns and i get it, he said, i agree that no angel was not a good choice of words. he explained it was meant to play off an anecdote earlier in the piece, and once he explained that i got what he was trying for. obviously it did not work. and i didn't understand why he was using that phrase without his explanation of it. but in the media you never want to get yourself into a spot where, in order to understand what i meant i've got to get into this elaborate explanation of it. >> right. no, i would agree. it was a poor choice of words. but as far as i'm concerned, spiritually incorrect. michael is a martyr. and he's someone who did not earn his suffering. we often say, an unearned suffering is redemptive. so whatever he meant, whatever anybody thinks, whatever the police chief here would say about michael, whatever they thought about him, all martyrs are 18 yeses. whatever he thought michael was before, he most certainly in death is an angel now. >> antonio french, i want to get your reaction to some of the things we've been learning the last few days, especially that video of the st. louis county police officer and an incredible over hour-long rant. it's been online since april, no one thought that was an issue, the officer involved didn't think there was any real problem with that. as soon as it emerged to the news media on friday, he had to be suspended. as someone who's working there, i wanted to get your reaction to when you discovered it. did that -- was that a huge shock to you, a huge surprise to you, that somebody with those kinds of views could be active in the local police there? >> no, it wasn't shocking at all. let me say that the vast majority of men and women in uniform serve honorably and they are good police officers in the community. but those few that are bad apples damage that relationship, that sacred relationship between community and police. and i think what we're experiencing here in st. louis right now is a completely fractured trust. and we have a lot of work to repair that. but the young men in this community have interacted with guys like that very often. and they know better than most that there are way too many officers with those kind of views that patrol their neighborhoods. so we've got to do a better job of weeding those guys out, exposing them, and make the police department more reflective and sensetive to our community. >> and mark thompson, there's probably, my guess is a very large racial division in reaction to that video. african-americans not being so surprised by it or even shocked at all, and white americans, a lot of them looking at that video saying, that's absolutely shocking that a police officer would be up there saying those things. >> yeah, it is. but as antonio said, this is something that obviously is an ongoing reality and even a daily reality. not not only young men here in ferguson, but elsewhere. as we say, since this movement started, there's a ferguson near you. and we've seen it manifested not only -- this has become ground zero for this struggle, but let's face it, lawrence. michael is one of a long list of killings, just in the past few months. from eric garner, izel ford in l.a., the beat are of marlene pinnock on a california highway, michelle accuse sew in phoenix, arizona. john crawford in ohio. omar obrega, a latino brother, beaten to death by lapd as well. jimmy powell in st. louis city. this is a very frightening time. we've seen this happen a lot but not so often as such a concentrations fashion. it would seem that police this past month have developed an appetite for strange fruit again with all of these killings. when we look pack at our history, we know we've overcome a history of lynchings. in 1919, the greatest number of lynchings ever recorded in this country was known as the red summer. i'm afraid, as this summer has gone by, and because of the color the police wear, because of all these killings, we may have to end up calling this the blue summer of 2014. >> mark thompson and antonio french, thank you very much for joining me tonight from ferguson. >> thank you, lawrence. coming up, we have some breaking news on white house action today over syria as some are of course continuing to push for a war against isis. and later, new pictures of the earthquake aftermath here in california. and we have great white shark video today. since robert taira openedsion king's hhis first bakeryd, in a small hawaiian town. making bread so good, that people bought two loaves one to take home, and one to eat on the way. so good, they grew from here. to here. to here. but to grow again, to the east coast they needed a new factory, but where? fortunately, 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endless aftermath to president george w. bush's war in iraq. president obama met with defense secretary chuck hagel today to discuss possible military options against the islamic state, the group responsible for the murder of photo journalist james foley. and tonight the new york times is reporting that president obama has authorized surveillance nights over syria. "the surveillance flights ar significant step toward direct american military action in syria, an intervention that could alter the battlefield in syria's three-year civil war." over the weekend islamic state forces seized a syrian military base, giving them control over much of a province that borders turkey. despite over more than 90 air strikes in iraq against the islamic state, drug one on saturday near mosul dam, president obama's sharpest critics are not satisfied. >> we need to hit them in syria. we need to help the free syrian army mobilize so they can fight them on the ground. when it comes to ground troops if our military commanders tell us that we need ground forces to defeat isil, which is a threat to the united states, so be it. we have got to go in and stop these guys. >> today the syrian foreign minister said that any strike which is not coordinated with the government will be considered as aggression. joining me now is nbc news counterterrorism analyst and former director of the national counterterrorism center, michael lyer. also msnbc analyst e.j. dionne. e.j., i always want these discussions to begin with the fact that this is the aftermath of the iraq war. this is what we are dealing with. the islamic state was not there before we decided to invade iraq this time. >> no, i think that's right. and we have been dealing with that aftermath for a long time. we didn't plan well going in, it was a bad idea going in. but now we're stuck with the situation. what's odd about the moment now, i think, is that we seem to be getting to something much closer to a consensus on iraq. the first time we've had anything close to that. yes, you've got linsey graham and folks saying we should send ground troops. but i don't think -- the vast majority of americans certainly don't want to send ground troops. but there is agreement that isis, isil, is dangerous. is very dangerous. and that we should try to contain them and push them back. and that's why we're helping the kurds, that's why we're doing the air strikes, it's why i suspect obama's working his way toward attacking them in syria. and i think linsey graham will get part of his wish. it looks like the administration is stepping up help to the free syrian army where you've got a civil war within the civil war there. and they're the people who would take on isil in syria. so i think we're closer to a consensus than we've been for a long time. >> michael lyer, how do you -- how does the united states hurt the islamic state in syria without helping assad? >> it's very, very difficult. first we have to figure out exactly who the islamic state is and where exactly they are in syria. a lot of surveillance flights and other intelligence collection going on now is to at least provide the president with options to strike, if he chooses to do so. now, there is going to be some benefit to assad if we choose to strike isil. the fact is we'd have to do that to make tactical gains against isil, knowing that what we're really trying to do is provide more space for a more moderate free syrian army to counter assad. now, that's a lot harder today than it was two years ago. but it's really the only game in town. >> e.j., the "new york times" records that in order to try to avoid helping assad very much, the pentagon is drafting military options that would strike the militant islamic state in iraq and syria or isis near the largely erased border between syria and iraq, as opposed to more deeply inside syria and would bolster american support for the moderate syrian rebels mr. assad as their main foe. there's the trick they want to try to perform, e.j. >> no, that's right. i was talking to a western diplomat today who made the point that given the civil war within the civil war, you probably could, he was arguing, hit isil in ways that wouldn't help assad that much. on record saying assad could go even as we're going against one of his main opponents. the other key here is the united states is being very careful because it does not want to look like it is waging a war against sunni islam. and the administration knows it needs a lot of sunni support including sunnis inside iraq if they're going to turn isil back. and that's another sort of complexity about getting involved in the syrian fight. >> michael leiter, some people talk about destroying the islamic stays or stopping it and they have estimates the islamic state forces are larger than al qaeda ever was. what is the even remotest possibility of stopping or eliminating the islamic state? >> lawrence, we have to do it in stages. and i actually think it's very likely, and not all that difficult, to stop them in iraq and then to roll them back in iraq. they probably have about 4,000 to 5,000 troops in iraq. and u.s. air power and a capable iraqi ground force can get them rolled back. the much harder question remains, syria. and destruction of isis i think really is going to be a multi-year effort. we can reduce their capability, but destroying them is going to take some time. we have to realize that their initial reaction to u.s. involvement is probably going to make them even more inclined to attack the u.s. and the west more quickly. i think that's their strategic goal anyway. but this will, at least initially, be a little kicking the hornet's nest. and that means that you have to have an even stronger defensive posture to avoid those sorts of attacks. >> e.j., the islamic state is a passion-driven movement. you can destroy the bodies. how do you destroy the passion and how do you then eliminate it so that it doesn't recur? >> that is a good question. i mean, the fact is you have all kinds of sort of radical islamic groups who have -- who are very factionalized. these guys who were too radical for al qaeda, which tells you where we're going, i don't know if you ever completely eliminate that impulse among some parts of islam. i think you sort of take on a particular group like this knowing that that sentiment may morph into another group somewhere else but you just have to keep pushing it back. >> e.j. dionne and michael leiter, thank you for joining me tonight. coming up, there was a great white shark today up in massachusetts in "jaws" territory. this is the first power plant in the country to combine solar and natural gas at the same location. during the day, we generate as much electricity as we can using solar. at night and when it's cloudy, we use more natural gas. this ensures we can produce clean electricity whenever our customers need it. ♪ okay patrick, one more stop. lets go base, shark, blitz. base, shark, blitz, break! when the game's on the line... okay, this is for the game. the nfl trusts duracell quantum to power their game day communication. flag nineteen, set hut! abort! abort! he's keeping it. hut! duracell quantum. lasts up to 35% longer than the competition. the summer of this.mmer. the summer that summers from here on will be compared to. where memories will be forged into the sand. and then hung on a wall for years to come. get out there, with over 50,000 hotels at $150 dollars or less. expedia. find yours. you pay your auto insurance premium every month on the dot. you're like the poster child for paying on time. and then one day you tap the bumper of a station wagon. no big deal... until your insurance company jacks up your rates. you freak out. what good is having insurance if you get punished for using it? 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"gonna need a bigger boat." joining me is george burgess the director of shark research. this is close to home for me, i used to swim at that beach when i was a kid. i'm going to be in that area this weekend. how scared should i be? >> you shouldn't be scared but you certainly should be respectful. probably since you were a kid, there's a lot more white sharks there in that area. in fact, in large part because of taking care of the marine mammals, the seal populations are back up and that's one of their favorite foods. of course the white sharks are also protected both nationally and in state waters. so there are more white sharks out there. you need to remember when you enter that you're entering a wilderness. it ain't like it was when you were a kid. >> how big is 15 feet? is that a -- that's one of the bigger versions of that shark, isn't it? >> yeah, that's a good-sized shark. they get to about 18, 19 feet. in life. but most of the time they're smaller than that. on a 15-footer as good-sized one and it's an adult. >> can we take any consolation from him being 150 yards offshore, which most swimmers from the beach aren't going to get close to? >> yeah, i think that's a good consolation, although it's not assurance that that animal wouldn't come closer to shore. keep in mind that seals, they come out of the water and the reason there's sharks around is they form colonies on the shores and come out and bask in the sun. so, you know, a favorite place for them is -- for white sharks is to be near those colonies. so clearly don't go in the water if you're adjacent to the well-established seal colonies. >> now, how do we track this shark? will we know in the next few days where this shark has gone? >> if it happened to have a tag in it. scientists have been putting tags in a lot of these sharks. fit happened to have that we could follow it in real time. but the reality is these are highly migratory animals and that might be on the other side of the bay by tomorrow, might be on the other side of the bay right now. they move up and down, back and forth. the best way frankly is to have lifeguards with binoculars on the beach which is basically how we do it here in florida, although white sharks are not common in florida. we have plenty of other sharks and the lifeguards routinely see sharks come, they pull people out of the way once the shark has gone by they let the people back in the water and call their buddies up the beach to say one's coming your way. >> do great whites like that 15-footer travel alone? >> yeah, these are solitary animals. and the only time we see them together is if there's a common food source. for instance, a seal colony might be attractive to bring in a number of white sharks. it's the reason of course why we're seeing so many of them in recent years in the cape cod area is because as that seal colony has gotten bigger, there's more white sharks in the area. and of course there's more humans out there looking for them too. we now have cell phones that take pictures and we social media them as soon as we see them. so it's a story instantly. >> george burgess, thank you very much for joining us tonight. >> good to be with you. coming up, a 6.0 earthquake here in california yesterday. in northern california. and still there is a chance of significant aftershocks this week. the mayor of napa, california, will join me. looking for a convenient way to fill your viagra prescription online? go to viagra.com to find out about viagra home delivery. millions of men have some degree of erectile dysfunction. talk to your doctor, if viagra is right for you, you can fill your prescription at your pharmacy, or check out viagra home delivery and get started at viagra.com ask your doctor if your heart is healthy enough for sex. do not take viagra if you take nitrates for chest pain, it may cause an unsafe drop in blood pressure. side effects include headache, flushing, upset stomach, and abnormal vision. to avoid long-term injury, seek immediate medical help for an erection lasting more than four hours. stop taking viagra and call your doctor right away if you experience a sudden decrease or loss in vision or hearing. viagra home delivery. a convenient way to have prescription viagra shipped straight to you. go to viagra.com to get started. having a perfectly nice day, when out of nowhere a pick-up truck slams into your brand new car. one second it wasn't there and the next second... boom! you've had your first accident. now you have to make your first claim. so you talk to your insurance company and... boom! you're blindsided for a second time. they won't give you enough money to replace your brand new car. don't those people know you're already shaken up? 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>> just that. i'm speechless. >> residents in the town of napa, california, are still assessing the damage one day after a six.1 magnitude earthquake shook the town. after the pavement buckled, more than 200 people were sent to the hospital, some with serious injuries. more than 100 structures have been red tagged in napa county declaring them unsafe to live or work in. napa's wine industry took a big hit with many wineries losing bottles of wine and facing damaged wine tanks and barrels. there have been dozens of aftershocks in the area tonight. experts say that the probability of a strong, damaging aftershock in the next week or so is about 25%. joining me now is the mayor of napa, jill techel. mayor, where were you when the earthquake hit? >> you know, i was actually in monterey, california. i got a phone call at 4:00 a.m. saying i better hop in the car and get back really quick. so i was not here when the earthquake hit. >> and the coverage sunday morning in california, i can tell you here on the local los angeles stations they just took the feed from the san francisco stations with the live coverage nonstop for hours and hours with these really some of the really most beautiful buildings in california were hurt by this, weren't they? >> yes. some of our historic buildings that we were really proud to have part of our downtown really got shook up in the earthquake. >> and what is the plan for digging out of this? >> well, we've got to individually look at each building. i think you're right, there are a lot of red tags right now because we're being overly cautious to be sure that nobody gets hurt. safety is just number one when you've got a situation like this. so we've got fences around the properties that have sustained some damage to keep people away. and we're going to send structural engineers in to see what the options are going forward. >> and what's happening to displaced people who have lost their homes or can't stay in their red-tagged homes? >> we've got a great salvation army and american red cross. we have a shelter in town. people go to the shelter and residents of napa come out and say, come to my home. they don't stay in the shelter very long, somebody takes them home to their home. >> how localized was the damage? how much damage is there outside of the city of napa? >> you know, it was closer to american canyon. and it had very little damage. further away was vallejo. quite a bit of damage. vallejo also has an historic old town and i think that's where most of the damage was. so it's the older historic buildings that seem to have not fared as well structurally. certainly all of us in the neighborhoods had everything rocked. when i got back home, everything was knocked over. all the shelves were over. all the wine was -- enough of the wine had spilled and broken. so there's a lovely smell of wine in the house. but it's not drinkable right now. >> that smell apparently is all over the area up there. >> yeah. >> the winemakers were hurt badly, weren't they? >> yes, yes. they lost a lot of product. and there were terrible pictures of just them not being able to get into their wineries, barrels, smashed carneros outside the city of napa i think was hit the worst. >> mayor jill techel of napa, california, thank you very much for joining us tonight. and good luck dealing with the aftermath of that earthquake. 6.1 is pretty bad. >> yeah, yeah. it's going to take awhile. so thank you. >> thank you. who you gonna call? a hawkish hillary or a dovish rand paul? let's play "hardball." good evening, i'm chris matthews in new york. let me start with the wild possibility that we may have to choose for our next between a democratic hawk and a republican dove. >> if you want to see a transformational election in our country, let the democrats put forward a war hawk like hillary clinton. you will see a transformation like you have never seen. >> what will this do to mix up the decision after lee elections voting against a war can we choose a democrat who voted for the war and sounds hawki

Transcripts For MSNBCW The Rachel Maddow Show 20141127

the country making a case for why he should be elected president of the united states. the american economy was imploding, russia and georgia were on the verge of war, the united states was engaged in direct talks with north korea on the subject of nuclear disarmament. a busy time in america, a busy time in the world. a very busy time in the news business. and in the middle of all this, with all of this more swirling in the air, there was actually a moment in the middle of all this that it seemed that all anyone wanted to ask barack obama about was a cartoon. cartoon that was on the cover of a magazine called "the new yorker yorker." >> so the title of that "new yorker" cover was the politics of fear. and that came out shortly after a fox news commentator had wondered alloud on television i they had given each other a terrorist fist jab. that "new yorkyorker" cover capd that moment in political and media life, the conversation that was happening in our country right then, not just in politics but the culture at large. this is something that the cover of the "new yorker" is good for. this was the cover of "the new yorker" after osama bin laden was killed. even if you never read a word of the magazine, "new yorker" covers are a phenomenon. this is during the disastrous obama care rollout. when the world had discovered that mitt romney once strapped a dog to the roof of the car during a family trip. this is how "the new yorker" encapsulated. that's rick santorum on the roof of the car. after bp spilled oil into the gulf coast, the worst oil spill in american history, here was the cover of "the new yorker," this is 9/11 cover. one of the most provocative covers was probably this, the valentine's day issue from 1993, back when new york city was grappling with some deep-seated, seemingly intractable tensions between the block and jewish orthodox populations. there had been rioting, violence and looting, simmering tension. when this cover came out, it was controversial, poignant, funny, provocative, one that people still remember and still talk about today 21 years later. and that's what just the right cover image can do. it can stand the test of time. and so now this week, this the cover of the newest issue of "the new yorker." it's called broken arch. and the artist who created this cover, his name is bob stack. he lived in st. louis for 17 years, and he says that watching the news right now in his home state breaks his heart. quote, my hope is that the events in ferguson will provide a bridge and opportunity for the city and also for the country to learn and to come together. last night and into this morning people poured out on to the streets all over the country in solidarity with the folks that had been protesting in ferguson. from new york, boston, minneapolis, atlanta, portland, oakland, l.a., people last night took to the streets and they marched. in many places people used their bodies to block traffic, to close roads and highways. in los angeles they blocked the highway, the 101 highway. in new york they stopped traffic at the lincoln tunnel. they closed the brooklyn bridge also. they blocked both highways on either side of manhattan. for the most part all of these protests were peaceful, although there were bursts of violence. in oakland, california, protests grew more violent as the night wore on. people started fires, some shattered windows, they threw bricks at police officers. more than 90 people in all were arrested in oakland as a result of those protests last evening. in ferguson, there was some violence but the st. louis county police chief called it a much better night last night than the night before. there were 44 arrests total that were made. this is a live shot right now in the city of ferguson. these are live images on thanksgiving eve right now the streets are calm in ferguson. you can see the national guard here outside the ferguson police department. in downtown st. louis today there was a dramatic confrontation between protesters who had tried to make their way into city hall and police officers who said that the crowd had, quote, made contact with the city hall security guard and the crowd had to disperse. some in the crowd tried to question that order. >> only because they assaulted us and forced their way into the building. >> maybe a psychotic person. >> well, unfortunately, sometimes a bad apple ruins the whole barrel. >> like darren wilson? that's the bad apple. >> so now it's time to go. this is an unlawful assembly. anybody who remains is subject to arrest and/or other actions up to and including the deployment of chemical munitions. >> three people were arrested during those protests in downtown st. louis. on the ground in ferguson, in the city of st. louis people have been protesting the grand jury's decision not to indict officer darren wilson in the shooting death of michael brown, but this story also is continuing to unfold in a very important way, continuing to unfold away from the streets and away from the scenes of all those protests because when that local prosecutor announced the grand jury's decision not to indict wilson back on monday night, that prosecutor also made the decision to release thousands of pages of documents, thousands of interviews, pieces of evidence that had been presented to that grand jury in this case. the grand jury that decided not to pursue a case. a surprising decision. something you basically never see. evidence and testimony presented to a grand jury is generally not made available for the public to view. but here it was. it was made public in a flood of paper. something like 4700 documents in all all released at once. people, journalists, everyone across the country is combing through that stuff trying to find some of what they're looking for. a lot is jaw dropping. today "the washington post" presented this piece, based on the quote voluminous testimony released in the aftermath of the grand jury's decision. the "post" found that officer wilson left the scene of the shooting, he returned to the police station unescorted, washed his hands and placed his gun into the evidence bag himself. the interviews were not taped. an investigator with the st. louis county medical examiner's office opted not to take measurements at the scene of the shooting. he said it was, quote, self-explanatory what had happened there. the same investigator was the one whose battery died in his camera and why he was not able to take any pictures. instead he had to rely on pictures taken by the police department. this in a shooting investigation involving a police officer. there was no police officer back at the police station to take a photograph of officer wilson before he washed the blood off his hands. when asked if it was common practice to let someone involved in a shooting incident like this handle and package evidence himself, like his own gun, a detective testified that it was not customary to do that and the st. louis county police department, but that he didn't know about ferguson. and there are lots of revelations in this "washington post" story. we know about them only because these reporters at the "post" have spent the past few days combing through all this material, all of that information released by the prosecutor, finding all the relevant information, the context that we need to understand what happened here, not just during the shooting, but in its aftermath. how this was handled by law enforcement after the shooting happened. this story continues to unfold. it continues on the streets. it continues in and around ferguson. it continues all around this country. and it is also now in the hands of reporters or anyone else, for that matter, who wants to pore over any or all of the documents we have in this case. for better or worse, we have all of that information publicly available. when people have started digging into it, what they found so far has been fascinating. joining us now from ferguson is wesley lowery, he's been covering the situation for "the washington post." the scene behind you now looks, compared to the past two nights, positively tranquil. what are we looking at in a wider area around you right now? >> of course, it's a very calm night so far tonight in ferguson. it's been a very calm tranquil day. right now there's a quiet memorial happening at the site where michael brown was killed. it started at the site in shaw in st. louis where myers was killed and moved to jimmy powell, a shooting that happened after mike brown and they've now arrived at canfield. we're not seeing massive protests outside the police department. we're not seen a massive protest presence at the site of the brown shooting. the national guard remain here guarding the police department and kind of keeping a watchful eye over the protester, but very calm. >> so let me ask you about this story in your paper, in "the washington post" about all of these -- wherever you want to call them, errors, oversights, omissions. you have the officer himself, darren wilson who basically packaged his own evidence. you don't have measurements being taken at the crime scene. when you add all these together, do you have reason to suspect it had all of the proper or normal protocols been followed here that maybe there would have been more for this grand jury to look at, for this prosecutor to look at that could have resulted in a prosecution? >> what we know is that there's certainly -- there's certainly pieces of evidence that no longer exist. you know, we're led to believe that darren wilson had blood on his hands, on his arms, that was washed off. a big issue in the months since the shooting has been how far away was michael brown's body from darren wilson and from darren wilson's cruiser because so much of this narrative is brown running around and either turning around and surrendering or charging. the medical examiner took no measurements. no matter what you believe happened in this altercation between brown and darren wilson, most reasonable people are willing to raise an eyebrow at the idea that darren wilson after discharging his weapon a dozen times at michael brown and shooting and killing him, then continued to handle the weapon use to kill michael brown. in any other type of shooting, that would be beyond the realm of belief that -- if i were to shoot you, that i would then have access to the weapon after the police arrive for more than an hour to do who knows what with. >> and that particular issue there with the gun, that seems sort of central to the conflicting versions of events we've heard here because the case of officer wilson, correct me if i'm wrong here, that there was a struggle and michael brown had his hands on the gun at one point. if you could fingerprint that gun, you could probably corroborate that story or find out if it's not true. >> exactly. michael brown not only had his hands on the gun but was so strong he had control over the weapon. well, that would lead most reasonable people to believe that there might be some type of dna evidence on that gun. fingerprints, dna, according to the grand jury transcripts that my colleagues and i have pored over, they could either test for dna or fingerprints. they couldn't do both. they chose a test for dna. at no point in the transcripts for the grand jury does mcculloch or the other prosecutors present what the findings of those test also were. the gun was tested for michael brown's dna but we have no clue if his dna was found on the gun. that would seem to be a crucial piece of evidence one way or the other. >> this is a town -- we say city a lot. but this is not the biggest metropolis in the world. is this the sort of thing where we could look at all these flaws and basically say, you know what, they never deal with this kind of thing. everybody was kind of making it up on the fly and this is what happened. >> if we watch at how the police here handle many elements, be it the crowd control, the initial investigation, the movement of the body that day, this was a situation they weren't quite prepared for. that said st. louis county police had a lot to do with this investigation. ferguson pd handed it over to them on the first day, within the first hour. they handle a lot of homicides, a lot of shootings. there are reasonable questions here that can't necessarily be explained away by this is a small town suburb somewhere, they don't know what to do. >> wesley lowrie, happy thanksgiving to you. >> much needed good news out of ferguson. we're now officially on white house veto watch. alright, so this tylenol arthritis lasts 8 hours, but aleve can last 12 hours... and aleve is proven to work better on pain than tylenol arthritis. so why am i still thinking about this? 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library which is located on florissant road right in the heart of the city's downtown, down the road from the ferguson police department where a lot of the action the last two nights has been centered. yesterday, after the worst of the unrest, ferguson library made a point of being open. they tweeted out early in the morning that they would be open all day with wifi, water, rest and knowledge. library staff was in place at 9:00 a.m. with over 50 volunteers, 50 parents, teachers, retired folks pitching in to help giving out free lunches to school kids, even having story time for some of the younger kids. the library held what they call an ad hoc school day. they did this for a week back in august after the ferguson school district delayed the start of their school year because of the protests on the streets back then. back then and now, the library invited invited teachers to come in. yesterday the library also opened its doors to local businesses. staffers from the missouri secretary of state's office were there to help business owners organize and preserve records for any of the damage they might have suffered this week. then today the library made space for the missouri department of insurance to help businesses file insurance claims. the library's director told us that the library stayed open as late as they thought was safe on monday, the night of the decision of the grand jury. the library kept their doors open right up to 8:00 p.m., moments before the grand jury announcement. they made the decision to open the library the next morning so there would be a place for the community to gather and to collect themselves. this is just what libraries are supposed to do. that's what the ferguson library director told us when we called him. in his words, it was nothing different in kind. the regular schools in ferguson remain closed next week means the ferguson library will keep their ad hoc school going as well. just by being open this week, by doing what they do every day, by doing it amidst incredible upheaval in the larger community, by doing that the ferguson library made a difference, not just for people in ferguson but the people around the country. in the website for the ferguson library, you can find a donation button that was added this summer when people around the country asked how they could help out. in the last two days 7,000 people have all across the united states have clicked to make donations. staff of the library told us that most gave small amounts, maybe $5, maybe $10. people gave what they could. they didn't just give money. also from all over the country people are sending books, college kids in olympia, washington, made bookmarks. they sent them in the mail to the library. the staff say they have been staggered by the outpour of support. the fact that it's been so enormous they might now be able to hire another full-time employee. because right now they only have one. back in august the ferguson library put up this sign, quote, during difficult times the library is a quiet oasis where we can catch our breath, learn and think about what to do next. please help keep our oasis peaceful and serene, today that sign is still up. engineered with end rounded bristles so brushing doesn't scratch gums and angled perfectly, to remove 90% of plaque for a healthier smile. trust the brand more dentists and hygienists use. oral-b. goodnight. goodnight. for those kept awake by pain... the night is anything but good. introducing new aleve pm. the first to combine a safe sleep aid. plus the 12 hour strength of aleve. for pain relief that can last until the am. now you can have a good night and a... good morning! new aleve pm. for a better am. he's just like you. except .... he's in a commercial. he got hands like glue... and just bought... a 10,000 gallon salt- water fish tank. otherwise... he do what you do. drives to work, listens to his music, ...get's caught up in a wire-based headphone situation. uhmm. i know you 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americans about thanksgiving dinner and they gave them two choices. who would you rather play host to for dinner, monica lewinsky or ken starr? remember this was 1998, congress was just getting ready to impeach bill clinton after he lied about an affair with a white house intern. they wanted to know who would you rather share cranberry and turkey with? monica lewinsky or the independent counsel whose investigation had turned up evidence of the affair, kenneth starr. and the answer from the american people was a resounding neither. 32% said lewinsky, 32% said ken starr. and 35% said neither one of them. you get polls like this and every now and then they make you laugh. the huffington post website rounded up some of the best thanksgiving polls from the last few decades. like this one. so "washington post"/abc news poll from 1993, the very first year of bill clinton's presidency. the poll asked people what they were thankful for in their lives. topping that list, 99% of americans said they were thankful for their family. not much of a surprise there. that was number one on the list. tied for number one also coming in at 99% was freedom of religion. people saying they were thankful for that. 97% said thankful for freedom of the press. something we appreciate. 95% said thankful for their television. then look what came in next, after family, religion, the press and television, look what was next on the list of what americans were thankful for back in 1993. you'll never guess. it's congress. 77% of meamericans that year, me than three out of every four said they were either very thankful or somewhat thankful for congress. how do people feel about congress today? this is from the gallup poll that was just released after this midterm election, congress clocking in with a 15% approval rating. that is up from its approval rating at this same time last year when it was down in single digits such as 9%. those kinds of numbers, 15%, 9%, numbers far below the 77% who were thankful for congress two decades ago, that helps to explain why on the eve of thanksgiving 2014, the world gets to watch this. >> i take about eight quarts of water, half a dozen bay leaves, kosher salt, a little palm full of peppercorns, and the real secret, 16 ounces of pure maple syrup. i put it in a pot and bring it to where it's about to boil and turn it off. take a bucket, put a bag in there, put the turkey in there, put the brine over it. brine has to be cool. put it outside if it's cold enough or in the refrigerator for 24 hours. take it out, rinse it off, first half of the cooking time i cook the bird breast down, then halfway through i go in and literally pick it and turn it over. >> house speaker john boehner how to brine a turkey. that's what they'll do in an effort to try to forge some kind of connection with everyday americans. maybe if they see john boehner brining a turkey, maybe they'll see him as more as a person than a politician from an institution they hate. the party needs as many americans on their side as they can get right now because they're essentially at war with president obama, and that war is about to kick up yet another notch to a brand new level that we haven't seen before in the last six years. that story is next. stay with us. >> now, i only cook my bird to 160 max. then i take it out, put foil oifrt and let it sit for at least an hour. it's the resting time that really works. oifrt and let it s least an hour. it's the resting time that really works. voifrt and let it least an hour. it's the resting time that really works. eroifrt and let it least an hour. it's the resting time that really works. oifrt and let it t least an hour. it's the resting time that really works. ioifrt and let it at least an hour. it's the resting time that really works. toifrt and let it at least an hour. it's the resting time that really works. and let it sit fo least an hour. it's the resting time that really works. have a cold. i took nyquil but i'm 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[ woman ] life opens up when you relieve sensitivity. okay. chart imitates life. this is one of rachel's favorite segments. since i'm siing in for her, i'm going to steal it for the night. last week one of the big stories was the u.s. senate voting on the keystone xl pipeline on a bill to approve construction of that pipeline. mary landrieu's bill needed 60 votes to pass. it didn't get them. it came up one vote short, got just 59. ordinarily that would be a huge deal. there's been years of buildup for a keystone vote. there it was finally and defeated by just one vote. a major dramatic moment. at least you'd think. but here's the thing. that vote was just delaying the inevitable because republicans won control of the senate and once they officially take over control of the chamber in january and you can pet they're going to hold a brand new vote on keystone. then at that time they will actually have those 60 votes they need to pass. and then when that happens, it will mean a showdown with the president. because president obama has been very clear about the fact that he doesn't support this legislation. right before that vote last week, here's what white house press secretary josh earnest had to say about it. >> certainly is a piece of legislation that the president doesn't support because the president believes that this is something that should be determined through the state department and the regular process that is in place to evaluate projects like this. but again, i'm not in a position to issue veto threats here, but as you rightly point out there are similar pieces of legislation that have been introduced in this country where the president's senior advisers have recommended a veto. >> president's senior advisers have recommended a veto. that's a veto threat. so had the keystone pipeline bill gotten just one more vote in the senate, the bill would have passed, it would have gone to obama's desk and he would be getting ready to take out his pen and officially veto it. congressional negotiators from both parties are working on a new tax cut deal. yesterday as details of that deal emerged, the white house issued another veto threat. now, details from the supposedly pending deal include permanent tax breaks for corporations, no permanent tax breaks for low income families. so that is a two vetoes threatened by the white house in the course of just two weeks. and if that feels like it's something new, two veto threats in two weeks, something we haven't heard before in the last six year, the words "obama" and "veto" being used in the same sentence, if it feels new, that's because it's the case. here's the number of vetoes. more than 80 years of presidential veto history right here in this chart. the "usa today" actually keeps these numbers on their website. way over there on the left, that's fdr, he holds the veto crown. 635. that number is so huge we couldn't fit the bar on this graph. that broke the chart. that's what happens when you get elected four times and serve more than 12 years as president. then after fdr, truman, dwight hizen hower, nixon had 43 veet oes, clinton issued 37. this is the total number of vetoes so far for president obama. look at that. two. two lonely little vetoes in six years as president. that is it. one of those was on mortgage note arization bill the other on a spending bill. if you're squinting to see the bar for obama's two vetoes, we can zoom in a thousand times and help you see it. there you go. president obama has the fewest number of vetoes of any modern president, and that is by far. ronald reagan had 78, bush sr. had 44 and obama has only two. here's the thing about the two tiny vetoes, they're about to get a lot of company in the next two years because that count will explode as soon as january comes and republicans, for the first time since obama became president, republicans official take control of both houses of congress. when they do that in january, they will start to send bills to the president's desk. bills that in many cases he's not going to like. he'll start with the keystone pipeline or taxes or healthcare, where it ends, that's a big story to be watching for the next two years. let's bring in ryan grimm, the washington, d.c. post of the huffington post. the supposed deal on tax cuts between harry reid, the top democrat in the senate, and republicans, this thing that prompted the white house to issue a veto threat. no surprise the white house would have issues with something republicans are trying to do. but harry reid, can you tell us what's going on here? >> what it seems like happened is that word leaked out before the deal had finally been reached and republicans may have had motivations to try to get that out to box out the gains they made in the negotiations so far. but the white house did what it hasn't done much in the past is come out and, like you said, issue that veto. they said we wouldn't comment whether it passes one of the chambers or not. here they are issuing a threat just based on some leaks and possibly inaccurate leaks because the talks are actually still ongoing. what's happening here? why is the white house doing this? one of the theories that senate democrats are kicking around is that they think that the president might actually want to veto these tax extenders so that they get punted into the next year and they can be done as a big package together with corporate tax reform. if you get these extenders done, then k street and new york doesn't really have that much of a motivation to do corporate tax reform. if you get these extenders done, then there's a reason. obama has been chasing this white whale of a big deal where he can sit down with mcconnell and boehner and hash out some piece of legislation and the thinking is maybe he wants to try again for his seventh year. >> so in january, the big difference is the story since 2011, since republicans got the house, is somebody gets out of the republican house, it dies in the democratic senate and never gets to president obama's desk. now there's the opportunity for republicans maybe with the help of a handful of democrats to get something through the senate, get it on obama's desk and put him in the position of having to decide it. the key stone pipeline, he said he wants to veto it. it gives him the opportunity to do bargains. are we getting signs from the white house they would be willing to give up, trade, to take in exchange for putting his signature on something like the keystone pipeline? >> i think that's right. you'll see a game played where republicans along with a couple of conservative democrats will pass a couple of talking point bills. the keystone pipeline will get through the house and the senate like you said, then he'll voto tha -- veto that. now the real negotiations start. now they're going to sit down and say, okay, well, what kind of renewable energy credits can we throw in with keystone, what do you want? we'll back off your ozone rule, back off the carbon rules. i don't know if there are enough incentives that republicans can put in with keystone at this point to get him to sign it, but it becomes the kind of chip that he can put on the table. >> is it something -- we're talking more specifically about energy policy there, though. could he broaden it out. minimum wage is something he's been talking about for a couple of years now. could he get minimum wage combined with this? >> theory at the timically, he could. but you have to think about the lobbies that are involved. the green groups will want green stuff. they're sympathetic to the minimum wage as much as anybody else is, but they have their own constituencies, an awful hard sell to tell them give up this thing you've been calling game over for the planet to get minimum wage or subsidies for exchanges or whatever it might be. the kind of constituent politics come into play there. but theoretically, it would certainly be possible. >> a brand new dynamic years seven and eight of the obama administration beawe'll be deal with something new. happy thanksgiving to you. >> and you too. >> i get to live out one of my lifelong dreams on live television. i don't know if this is going to work. you know what? it's going to work because we want it to work. that it's given me time toabout reflect on some of life'seen biggest questions. like, if you could save hundreds on car insurance by making one simple call, why wouldn't you make that call? see, the only thing i can think of is that you can't get any... bars. ah, that's better. it's a beautiful view. i wonder if i can see mt. rushmore from here. geico. fifteen minutes could save you fifteen percent or more on car insurance. ♪soft holiday music ]♪ can you help me up? [ snow intensifies ] [ sleighbells ring in the distance ] aleve. all day pain relief with just 2 pills. get back to being you. it's not about how many miles you can get out of the c-max hybrid. it's about how much life you can fit into it. ♪ the ford c-max hybrid. with an epa-estimated range of 540 miles on a tank of gas. and all the room you need to enjoy the trip. go stretch out. you've become something of a social media rock star. all of you, after this lecture, should go out and look at the blog the notorious -- >> kempler. >> kempler. >> you got that? it's a tumblr, not a blog. ruth bader ginsburg of the rbg jack-o'-lantern, features kids dressed up like the supreme court justice. also recently john oliver's hbo show featured footage of the nine supreme court justices as dogs. you can see the chihuahua version of ruth bader ginsburg if you want. she was appointed to the court by bill clinton 21 years ago now. she's survived two separate battles with cancer. she returned without missing a hearing. she works out twice a week with a personal trainer. supposedly she can do 20 military push-ups, 20 real push-ups. ruth bader ginsburg is the longest serving liberal on the supreme court. there's a bloc of four liberals on the court. she's been there the longest of them. the five-member conservative majority decided to let the voter i.d. law in texas stand. it was published along with a fierce dissent that was written by ruth bader ginsburg. it was published at 5:00 in the morning on a saturday. that means that ruth bader ginsburg had stayed up all night friday night that early saturday morning writing that dissent. she's passionate, she's strong and she's also 81 years old. because time is time and humans are mortal, she knows that people wonder when she might step down. and some difficult political realities go along with that speculation. she got asked it "b" it directly back in september. i'm not sure how to ask this, but a lot of people who admire and respect you wonder if you'll resign while president obama is in office? and the answer came back from justice ginsburg. who do you think president obama could appoint at this very day given the boundaries that we have? if i resign any time this year, he could not successfully appoint anyone i would like to see in the court. she feels strong. she's not stepping down any time soon. that was september. that was before the election, that was back when democrats still controlled the senate. democratic majority evaporated with the elections this month. come january, republicans will control the senate and because they control the senate, it means they'll control the process for picking nominees for the federal bench, for the supreme court. already the elections have put ruth bader ginsburg tenure on the court in a new light. during her routine workout yesterday, she felt a little discomfort as a spokesman for the court described it. she went to the hospital where doctors put a extent in her right coronary artery. that's a way of keeping the blood throwing through that artery. the supreme court released a statement saying that ginsburg is resting comfortably and expects to be released from the hospital in the next 48 hours. if this story plays out as everyone hopes, it means she'll be back on her feet in no time, back at work. she'll do that with all the eyes of the nation's liberals willing her to long and lasting health because this story does raise an uncomfortable subject. the window for trying to replace her under a democratic senate -- excuse me a democratic senate has now pretty much closed. what follows now is a path that is, at best, uncertain for any nominee for president obama, whether the high court or federal bench for his new pick for attorney general. joining us is jess braven, the supreme court correspondent for "the wall street journal." jess, thanks for being with us tonight. let me ask you if there had been -- we had that quote from ruth bader ginsburg which seemed pretty ironclad back in september saying right now i don't like who he could appoint. i don't imagine she's reassessed anything. but have there been any indications from her more recently on this subject? >> no, the same story for the past couple years. there have been a few liberal law professor and others who suggested that she retire strategically, create an opening that president obama could then fill. she's not been interested in doing that. she's made it clear she intends to stay on as long as her health all allows. with her option today, we have to wonder how long does that allow. her colleague john paul stevens retired at age 90 and is still going strong. that question remains open. all we know is she wants to stay on as long as she says she can do the job. >> obviously everybody wishes her nothing but the best of health and in the longest possible life, but there is this nightmare scenario for democrats here where, for whatever reason, if ruth bader ginsburg is forced involuntarily to leave the kour and there's a republican president, that means the most liberal just on the court would then be by a son r conservative republican president. do you agree with her assessment that if she were to have resigned this year or in the past two years the president could not have appointed a successor comparable to her in ideolo ideology? >> it's hard so. it depends on how much of an issue the republican minority would have made an obama nominee. four past supreme court nominees have had close to party line votes. chief justice roberts and justice samuel alito were opposed by half or most democrats when they were appointed by president bush. what would happen now when the president is in a weaker position and republicans are eager to try to fill that slot? all kinds of questions. one part of appointments, supreme court appointments seem to matter more to the republican base than they have the democratic base politically. it's a much bigger issue for republicans than the democrats. and because republicans care so much more about these vacancies, it's quite likely they would make a big deal about it in the senate. >> do you think they would appreciate any difference between -- if ruth bader ginsburg were to resign, she's a liberal, the court stays balanced versus, like, if scalia were to go, there's a conservative and he's replacing with a liberal, then the balance of the court changes. would that factor into their -- how they posture on this? >> absolutely yes. i think they would give president obama somewhat more leeway were it justice ginsburg or one of the other three more liberal members of the court who step down. but if it were one of the five conservative, i would expect the republicans to fight very hard to either keep that vacancy hope until the next president takes off or insist on some kind of compromise nominee or conservative that obama would find acceptable. as opposed to many other battles he will have in his term. coming up, we will give you your holiday travel forecast. it's going to come with a twist because i'm doing the weather. it's going to be great, trust me. this is vital information. you're not going to want to miss it. a secure retirement. a new home. earning your diploma. providing for your family. real associates, using walmart's benefits to build better lives for their families. opportunity. that's the real walmart. goodnight. goodnight. for those kept awake by pain... the night is anything but good. introducing new aleve pm. the first to combine a safe sleep aid. plus the 12 hour strength of aleve. for pain relief that can last until the am. now you can have a good night and a... good morning! new aleve pm. for a better am. infrom the experts in feminine bladdeprotection.ection new always discreet underwear, for sensitive bladders. only always discreet underwear has soft, dual leakguard barriers, to help stop leaks where they happen most. plus a discreet fit that hugs your curves. you barely feel it. new always discreet. now bladder leaks can feel like no big deal. because hey, pee happens. visit alwaysdiscreet.com for coupons and your free sample. >> tell me if you can spot a pattern here. wild weather disrupts travel plans. this is 2005. weather threatens to continue to disrupt holiday travel. day before thanksgiving in 2005. then in 2006, storm floods hammer millions of americans making thanksgiving trek. 2007, day before thanksgiving, a sour thanksgiving recipe. record travel, possible storm. 2008, here's a change. the weather was actually fine in 200 8. 2009, thanksgiving storm on the way. 2010, storm messes with thanksgiving travel plans. 2011, weather delays wreak havoc on thanksgiving travel. 2010, snow, wind may cause more thanksgiving travel headaches. and then last year, 2013, hey, look, more of the same, weather walloping east coast as 43 million travel for thanksgiving. i think this is what you call a pat erp. every year the day before thanksgiving, the biggest single travel day of the year year, every year now for more than a decade, every single year, a giant storm seems to arrive just in time to turn everyone's travel plans into a total and complete nightmare. >> it was a miserable travel day for millions of americans on the move for thanksgiving. >> forecasters predict that by tonight, some of the rain we're seeing north anticipate west of where we are here in newark will be turning into sleet and snow. of course, the concern is what it's going to do to heavy thanksgiving travel. bad timing. >> for some holiday travelers, getting to thanksgiving dinner is not going to be easy. there's a real mess in the middle of the country. rain, ice and snow hit parts of the planes and upper midwest wednesday. >> the rush is on. the thanksgiving travel crunch sunday way and two powerful storm systems are already having a big impact on the roads and airports nationwide. >> we can see snow wrapping around this system. so we're gong to be looking at wind gusts tomorrow morning about 50 miles an hour, which are going to wreak havoc with the airports from washington, new york, boston, philadelphia. >> every single year it's like this. on this day. and so naturally, it's happening again right now. the thanksgiving travel curse is back, and it is worse than ever. and to show you exactly what we're up against here, we bes e decided it's time to dust off the big board so i can step into the role i wanted to play since i watch dick albert on channel 5 in boston doing the weather. we need the weather ticker. can we get that at the bomb of screen here? call that up. there it is. there's the weather ticker. this is officially now tv weather center. we're going to call it the storm center, is that what it is? so this is the storm as it has progressed through the day. moving up into the mid-atlantic. right now, the last oft storm, the worst of the storm still in northern new england. there are thousands without power in maine. this thing has left snow on the groed up in some places, ice on the ground in other places. frazzled travelers everywhere. so that's the trajectory of the storm. you can see. now let's take a look at what kind of snowfall we're tacking abo -- talking about here. look houd concord, you could be getting up to a foot of snow. albany, new york, that's the heart of it in central new england. let's see what you're looking at tomorrow. what kind of a thanksgiving forecast. a lit bill of snow in the morning in maine, otherwise just cold temperatures. much better tomorrow. a happy thanksgiving forecast for most of the country. that does it for us tonight. we'll see you on any weekend show "up this weekend." now it's time for "the last word with lawrence o'donnell. >> move over al roker, i have a new favorite weather man. that's amazing, steve. i could watch that all night. >> i'll do it all night and break roker's record. >> do a kornacki-thon, go ahead. thank you, steve. >> all right. >> tonight, it seems the only people in american law enforcement who don't know the law of land on the use of deadly force by police are the two prosecutors in the michael broup case who presented that evidence to the grand jury. that's coming up. but first, we will go life to ferguson tonight. >> there's hope in the air that we've seen the final bits of destruction. >> the families are praying with families of other victims. >> every city with a police department needs to engage in some introspection. >> we're just going to keep nig fighting, pray for a better outcome. >> a boy killed holding a pell let gun. >> how

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