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prompted by stormy daniels last sunday on "60 minutes." there are new details for her lawyer to question president trump for two hours. plus, how 56 words may have stumped president trump's position. it all stems from a sound byte we played yesterday. it's the attorney's attorney. i don't foe why they let him talk. we'll dig into that straight ahead. >> what we're talking about there, i've got to go back to donald trump's speech buzz it is so fascinating and you're an ad guy, it's so fashion nating that donald trump's punch lynn is what are we going to do? we're going to build the wall. nobody's going to pay for the wall, but donald trump is trying to to get the united states marine corps, the united states navy, the men and women in the army, the national guard to actually have money stripped out of their accounts to build a wall that nobody wants but he goes out there and he has the audacity to say we've got this beautifully designed wall and we're not building it and i'm sure the american people, certainly the good people of ohio, obviously know he's lying. the question is how long does this lie continue because mexico is not paying for the wall and he didn't even get the funding because his republican allies say we don't need that wall. >> the wall is an imaginary friend like his friend harvey that -- was that the movie, harvey, with the imaginary friend? >> maybe the rabbit. >> it's just harvey and it is not a thing. it is a femetaphor as we all kn. i will continue to be the white president, he can get re-elected, it can get years from now. here i am 35%, i'm not going anywhere. we're going to protect you from all the different bad colors of people that come into this gun triand he's mr. defense. he's mr. veteran and by the way, if i have to feed my friend harvey i'll take it from the military. >> i'm going to strip it out to the military's account. it seems that when your lawyers lawyer's lawyer's lawyer's start talking, you get in trouble and that's exactly what jonathan turley has said that we played the clip yesterday and when mike -- when donald trump's lawyer's lawyer came out and said what he said a couple of days ago e well, he undermined trump's case and cohen's case against stormy daniels and his attorney. >> there are various things to sayant this, but it just ends up getting back to this -- the fundamental thing which is you know, donald trump when he says he has hired the best people, he is in ra world of hurt and he has nothing like the best people around him. he's got essentially the -- not even the b team, but the c team of legal talent on both his private matters and government matters. eventually they will lead you into trouble and that seems to be happening on both sides. it's happening on the thing that poses a threat to his presidency and also the on the thing that opposes what apparently that he's most actually personally concerned about this relates to stuff that took place outside of his marriage. >> so many people are in trouble right now the the mueller investigation, are in trouble in part because they were winging it. because they were just thinking that they were smarter than everybody else when in fact they were more ignorant than erveg else. how the you run the white house. they made a lot of stupid mistakes. pall manafort stands alone as somebody who actually used thz a business structure to do deals with russia but so many other people got in trouble because they were just winging it. >> right v. >> but here's a great example of donald trump to get his lawyer to go out on cnn and to say hey, donald trump knows nothing about this deal with stormy daniels. and in so doing, jonathan turley will tell us why, they probably sunk their defense and probably have now blown apart the nda that he wants to stay in place. >> they're winging it, that's one thing they do. they're ignorant and they're bullies and it all comes together very badly especially in a case pertaining to a woman who hoas a story, who has a rea contract. it's not going to go well i can assure anybody that's concerned about that. >> but first overnight russia's defense ministry released video of what it says is a test of a new icbm. the test was successful. it is reportedly one of the new missiles putin show occasioned in his speech earlier this year. it comes measures against the united states. the expected move comes after the u.s. expelled 60 russian spies in response of the poisoning of an ex- spy and his daughter in the uk. the kremlin is kicking out 60 american diplomats in addition no closing the consulate ordering it shou shut down by tomorrow and that brings us to the new exclusive reporting for nbc news about trth's relationship with russia and vladimir putin. most officials tell nbc news that trump has told his aides not to publicly talk about policy moves the white house implements against russia. according to officials, his reasoning stems from his continued hope for better relations with putin. his critics question his praise or silence toward the russian leader. for instance, after it was announced they would apply, trump told his aides not to tout decision publicly because it might agitate putin. it is not something he wants to talk about. however, after putin flaunted his nuclear arsenal one white house official said it really got under the president's skin and that trump called the leaders saying putin sounded dangerous and urging all four nations to stick together. in addition, according to two officia officials, during his call to putin last week, trump add t quote, if you want to an arm's race i can do that but i'll win. >> so let's bring in carol lee here. tell us more about your reporting. >> what we're trying to figure out is what was happening inside the white house when these russia policy debates and decisions were being made because as we've all noted there's this serious divide between the public persona that the president puts on russia policies and we learned that there's a lot of confusion frankly and that the president has to be coerced in some instances for months to make certain policy decisions that his national security team wants him to mach such as the arms for y ukraine and once he does that, a normal press operation would say let's roll this out and message this and he doesn't want anyone to because he's trying to be touch on russia policy wise while not angering putin because he holds out this hope that somehow that will help him get better relations and one interesting thing that officials told us is they've tried to flip that to mote vam him. they'll say you want better reslagss with russia, the way to do that is you knead to take these steps and thaets ookind of been a go-to move for them and that's helpful. >> yeah, there has been this disconnect and not just over the past few months but actually since january 20th, 2017, where there have been times where you've heard the secretary of defense continuing 50 years of u.s. policy towards russia m you've had the vice president going to eastern your honor and sounding more like ronald reagan than even barack obama would have maybe sounded like, a traditional cold war hawk. same thing with nikki haley, she has never minced words. so there has always been the disconnect. is u.s. foreign policy -- i'll ask you this question first and we can try to get inside of donald trump's head and try to figure out why he's doing what he's doing, but is there really that much of a disconnect between u.s. policy today towards russia and when president obama was president. >> not that much. in some areas the policy is tougher. and that is the willingness to arm ukraine. it's where you know that a lot of us should have taken years ago and the president actually has a point where you don't want to trumpet it. it's not the sort of thing that you want to rub putin's face in it. you don't need a crisis over ukraine. and that's the one that has everybody scratching their heads. but the brd outlines are continued. we continue to slightly reenforce the ability of nato. so i don't think it's a fundamental divide between happened before and what's happening now, it's just the president's unwillingness to take russia on in various do mains of what it's doing. >> so let's talk about the president himself. if the president believes as he believes, that one of the biggest mistakes barack obama made was dismissing russia as a regional power there by criticizing the united states president and all the leadership in russia and if he blaefs that and he does, is this a smart move to -- to have a strong policy, but is -- can you even say this is what teddy roosevelt was talking about when he said speak softly and carry a big stick. >> again, showing the russians some respect i believe makes sense. it doesn't cost us anything. and they still can mach a difference. obviously in europe and ukraine and georgia and syria, there's no harm in slowing the russians some respect in talking with them. i want doesn't mach us smaller it doesn't cost us anything. but the story of the day it raises questions why would our response to the attempted murder in britain to have been kick out diplomats. they've now closed the american consulate so what are ewe going to do? this relationship now has less substance to it than at the worst moment of the cold war. there's fewer diplomats. there hasn't been an american congressional delegation to russia in something like four or five years so i don't understand how this helps the grats. we've got to find ways of pushing back against russia but we don't want to eliminate our ability to conduct a normal reslar relationsh relationship. >> you had george w. bush talking about how he had looked into vladimir putin's yoeyes an could read his soul and then you have one listening to you and then putin, invaded the yukrain and now you have donald trump who won't say anything about public putin perfectly, but he says he actually seems to be taking tougher policy stances at times that even barack obama did. this is a dysfunctional relationship and worse than it was at times during the cold war. >> it is inherently a kind of difficult relationship. after the cold war i think there's been a successive fail your to kind of figure out the outlines of a porkable relationship going forbard and a lot of that can be laid at the feet of vladimir putin too who is an ak toor in all of this and he has not done things that would encourage the administrations to come up with a reasonable workable relationship going forward. but you know, you can -- i mean, lack at the relationship now though. i'd say it's more of untogether and crazy and uncertain than it has been even through the reset. even though you know, wait until after the election. you've got john huntman there, right? capable guy, very smart. really a china expert more than a russia expert but i'm sure he can do the job, by what is he supposed to do and bho is he supposed to do it with? it's just crazy. >> it's incredible. >> it is tough times, mika. john huntman, he's been in the foreign service for some time. he's a good man to have in moscow right now but again, what a difficult job. he has to have. >> possibly impossible and richard haas makes a great point. is no what you want to be doing right now and you just fired your secretary of state. you worked on focus groups and this is important, given all the fascinating, troubling and really important questions pertaining to russia, you spoke with trump voters in tennessee and mississippi and here's some of what they had to say about russia and the russia investigation. >> i came from the days of the cold war. if we can find ways to coexist, i ame not going to say we're best butt dis, but let's find some neutral territory and see if we can't, i guess identify some mutual goals. >> trust me, the media is spending millions trying to find that link and no one's been able to. >> i think it's because they're afraid of it. and the more mud you can stir, the easier it is to keep him from doing his job. >> yeah. some of the campaigning that this president and supporters is maybe paying off. >> they blame the media for bringing it to what they see as just a fever pitch of hysteria about -- for a president that they think is trying to get things done and the establishment is actively opposing him. and you look at how donald trump and his language on russia and his rhetoric about putin and his lack of skepticism of the russian interference in the election and it really has trickled down. and one of the foe dus drupes where we were discussing the poisoning in london and one of the participants is saying it's too perfect that the russians would do that because they're the only one that manufacture that particular poison. and so that oogs kind of just the level of skepticism that is circulating about nug that's said that goes against the narrative that donald trump is presenting. you might remember he hesitated to necessarily finger london in that particular attack even though it was immediately fairly obviously that yes, the russians were involved. >> i would hesitate to comment on what these americans believe, but i do think democrats ought to take notes right now. >> they're dead wrong. >> but there's a reason they're there. >> well, no, but they're dead wrong. i mane, they are entitled to their own opinions. and if they want the beingly ignorant of what's going on, if they think that 13 russians were indicted for the hell of out, they get the government that they deserve. there's no sticking your head in the sand. and again, it happens on both sides. large number of democrats back in 2005 and 2006 that believe that george w. bush took down the twin towers. said he was part of the conspiracy. well, yes, they had a right to bloefz that, but they were ig nornd and they were wrong. >> democrats have their heads in the sand and this is pretty telling about their opinions on gun control. this you'll seize something else. take a listen. >> we have lots of guns in my house. my husband also as an ar-15 that we could take or leaf. >> there's not a age demographic that's causing this problem. i've got, you know torks i've got multiple weapons and assault weapons and everything and i enjoy shooting but i would be willing to have stricter background checks because i have kids in school too. >> some people might not agree with it but if you're doing something to prevent that from happening, give it your best shot. >> you know, this is, again as a guy that was born in georgia, went to college in alabama. lived my formative years in mississippi and lived about 30 years in northwest florida or as we call it the red neck riviera. this is what i constantly hear from my friends that have been out hunting as i say, time and again since they were 5, 6, 7. i know there are, you know, fat white pink boys in suspenders in washington, d.c. or think tanks that have blogs that try to sound like gun warriors. they probably never -- probably never shot a gun. but everybody i know that's got 5, 6, 7, 10 guns in their house let's say we all do the same thing. yeah, let's raise the age limit. 's get rid of bump stocks. these are 80, 90% issues and not just where yankees were talking. poem who i grew up with in mississippi, or are saying the same thing. >> i had really lobbied our group for a while to come to mississippi and tennessee. and to talk to voters there and particularly it was an interesting time just because it is such a flash point for the gun control debate. and in the first group we did in memphis, strong trump supporters, you know, looking around and my fath is a little agape but i was really surprised by the willingness for some reasonable measure of gun reform. all of these groups, at least half at a minimum had owned multiple guns and they really are just tired of the broken government system of regulating guns in this country and how, you know, they see it as government being broken and while we do have laws on the book that need to be more well applied and to be utilized, they at the same time just do not see the logic of bump stocks, of the high volume magazines. there are things that they're willing to concede. >> you know, there's a reason why over the past several months i've been very careful not to talk about the nra. the nra is for this and for that and i always talk about three or four lobby u.s.s who run the washington arm of the nra lobbying organization who have radical views that are hoogly di ver jents from the ma jor toy of gun owners. that's more of a 60/40 right now. but for people carrying signs saying down with the nra, the nra are the members of the nla and members have a few voint that fsh sometime has reason billion reasonable when it comes to background checks, banning bump stocks and now raising the auj to 21. >> well, yeah, i mean, first of all there's a big divergence between what the nra as an organize saegs believes. there's also a split between what the nra policy but i do think if you're going to fight this issue and you're going to undermine the power as a political force in american life it makes sense not to focus on -- i mane, you want to focus on that fisher between those two things but i think focusing on the nra leader shirp makes a lot of sense if you're in the movement because that is in the end, regardless of everything else, those handful of people you're pointing to, those leaders still continue to be the place where political power has resided and we're starting to see that change, but you've got to try to break it at the top if you're going to break its. >> and that happens because there in washington, d.c. and thaw doll out checks to members of congress who can't take -- who don't have the courage to that i can their checks and still vote against them. there's a fox news poll that we put up, i mean, you look at these numbers even in this fox news roll and it's overwhelming where you talk about universal background checks and you can go down that list and again, that's where most gun owners are right now. so it's -- again, so we're going to be talking, mika, coming up about the continued attacks against the young people who went through a trauma that of course none of us would ever -- would pray that none of our children ever had to go through. and that is, a massacre in their schools. my gosh. i've said itz before. i'll say it again. don't attack children. don't debate children that are survivors of a who rirvsurvive horrific massacre the oes of their lives. don't attack the children. >> they're grappling with the trauma. so from a mounting advertiser's boyco boycott, fox news had to apologize yesterday for comments she tweeted about a survivor of the parkland school shooter. plus, president trump had a substantive conversation with david shulkin just hours before firing him. one of the ing things they didn't discuss was that he was about to be fured. >> it hate it when that happens. >> especially when a guy who says you're fired when he's straightforward. >> so we're going to talk to the former va secretary live straight ahead right here on "morning joe." it'll connect us to everything that's going on in the company. get it for jean who's always cold. for the sales team, it and the warehouse crew. give us the data we need. in one place, anywhere we need it. help us do our jobs better. with domo we can run this place together. well that's that's your job i guess. ♪ on the only bed that adjusts on both sides to your ideal comfort, your sleep number setting. does your bed do that? it's the last chance for clearance savings up to $800 on our most popular beds. ends saturday. visit sleepnumber.com for a store near you. these are the specialists we're proud to call our own. experts from all over the world, working closely together to deliver truly personalized cancer care. expert medicine works here. learn more at cancercenter.com the legal team for adult film star stormy daniels may have suffered a temporary setback. a federal judge has denied a request to depose president trump as part of an ongoing legal battle. the judge said the motion was premature because some questions may wind up being answered by a future petition from trump and his lawyer michael cohen. but the lawyer said he was pleased with the judge's ruling and that it is quote, not good for the president. >> the attorney for the attorney for donald trump might want his legal advice of his own after saying this on wednesday. >> it seems like a simple question, can you say unequivocally that the president was unaware of the 1 $130,000 o the agreement. >> he was never aware of the agreement and you asked a whole bunch of questions. you asked about the days before. >> what about the money? >> he was not aware of any of it. he wasn't told about it. michael cohen left the option open to go to him he chose not to. >> i mean, everybody's just winging it. everybody is just winging it. >> and -- they're just going out talking, calling each other thugs, winning it inside the administration, outside the administration. that was the lawyer representing michael cohen in the stormy daniels claiming the president had no idea about the nondisclosure agreement. >> how many are there? >> jonathan turley, he says now that cohen's counsel, the potential fallout as become even more serious and people do, related to this lawsuit and this administration, just seem to go on tv and wing it and in this case, just -- just playing it off the top of his head may have really cost -- or may have really undermined donald trump and michael cohen's best legal interest. explain why that is. >> it's painful to watch as n nar -- nascar. and those words undermine cohen rather dra mat click. suggesting that cohen cut this interest without speaking with him. which leads to questions about whether le made false representatio representations, whether he conferred with his client and that's on top of using his own money. but for president trump, this is a case of jumping out of the frying pan into the fire. i mean, it helps him in trying to get out of a deposition with michael avenetti but it looks like the others as a political count count count country -- contributions. >> so i'll leave it to the experts as to what legal jeopardy this may be in x but i have to tell you, it appears he definitely missed the bet on that one. don donny, i've been talking about this as it pertains to how president trump thinks. i feel like this bothers him more than anything else. i've never seen him go silent on anything. if a man or especially women that do anything that insuts them he tweets wildlessly. he has no problem lying on a daily basis and yet on this porn star and this alleged affair that seems to be sealed through a contract that keeps her silence, so something happened between the two of them. that's clear. >> yeah. >> there was a relationship. that's clear. there are pictures of them together and that's clear and there is this contract. this bothers him. explain to me about his personality that you know so well. >> it's a question where husband response is the wall. you know, whether the stock market is crashing or he's sleeping be porn stars or there's russian collusion, but there is something here, because as you point -- and i don't say anybody that knows more that trump for them to be so quiet and not responding and you go, what else is there and kind of the bomb shell last week was when stormy goes on and says she was physically threatened and you wonder where does that go. what is balked in to him at this point, nobody cares whether you think that is fortunate or unfortunate, that he's sleeping with porn stars in some way it twisted to his mystique, the conquering man as go tes k as there is. and what happened yesterday particularly with cohen's spokes person/attorney basically putting trump in hot water, the other side is also obvious think the negation of that and now what else is going to come out? but there is something very, very funky in there. >> yeah, i mean, gene robinson has been silent over the past five days. and now he's going down into seclusion for some rounds of golf, i suppose in march -a-lag. >> i suspect that in part it has to do with imminent and perm relationships. i mean he he has a wife, he has a young son, he has a family and there's a question that has been raised about whether there will other women out there with other ndas but a question for jonathan, where conceivably and i know i'm asking you something you probably can't answer, but where does he go? it seems like in any direction he goes in with his legal argument now, the president and michael cohen, seems like every direction they go in, there's, you know, a monster waiting. there's bad stuff waiting. is there a path through all of this for them or -- or not? >> well, there is. i think they're ignoring the gratest risk. as a law to fes sore i feel guilty saying focus on the porn star, but that is his greatest risk and one of the things that confuses me about this, is why people on his team don't see that and why they're not acting. he needs to get out of the litigation. it should never have started. they made every wrong move they could make. it's like a student who does worse than random selection on multiple choice answers. you know, they should have never gotten into this administration. this could clearly ma tast size from a civil to a criminal matter. now. >> reporter: what aes going to happen from the point on, the denial of his knowledge is going to give michael college is in already in serious trouble with the bar p but for now they have to deal with the fact lawyer gave 130,000 tlars to a porn star without ever ogetting the money back. the justice department has already said that can be a criminal matter. if bob mueller pulls the president in as he can to question him about it, you now have a threat for administration. >> if the president's looking at this, i just want to -- the president looking at these two possible threats, right? if you're saying okay, i got two possibilities here. one is i'm going to get drawn into a campaign finance case. it's criminal, but it ends up focused on michael cohen. that's one side. the other side is we ebt up in the lifl litigation and i've got problems not just on this nda but there are others out there. there's a whole burge out there but trump is clearly giving the indication that he's afraid of what dwells in that area. let's just play the criminal piece here. lets's play that out and whether it be a campaign finance argument and let the focus being on cohen as opposed to theth p. >> that is part of the twisted madness. he may have achieved the worse possible position on both sides. trump's counsel has intervened in the case, harder moved to take this to federal court so they rushed towards something they should have been away from and so it is still possible because this arbitration agreement does have a discovery provision, that there can be this request. i think the president could probably avoid a deposition at this point if he denies any knowledge, but the biggest problem he faces is going to be put our oath in any area whether it is mueller or whether it is this nda and to be asked about these relationships and these payments. the white house has already denied that he had any relationship, no matter how brief with this storm star. it moves him from a john edwards problem into a detention problem. bill clinton was too clever by half and almost lost his presidency. >> the president's fixer fixers seems to be problems very much. and a history of attacking jeff sessions on twitter. will today be one of those days? after all the attorney general said no for a second special counsel. 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. give us insight into john bolton, a lot of conservatives are defending him saying he's a reasonable rational guy. i was surprised when james baker did the same thing, possibly circling the wagons but all of these kind words and this charm offensive can't overlook the fact that he's never gotten along with anybody in government. he's been an extraordinarily difficult person to deal with. do you have nice things to say about bolton today? everybody else does. >> shockingly enough i don't even though in the spirit of holy week i probably should but i don't. i worked with john. there's fundamental questions about hiss judgment. you have to iraq war not just then but now. you have his approach to north korea which i think is legally and strategically flawed. his approach to the iran agreement would leave us in a dangerous situation and there's big questions about his temperament and the reason the temperament matters so much is the nature of this job. you can't allow your advocacy to get in the way of your willingness to be an honest broker. there's fundamental questions about whether john bolton is the right guy for this job but jim mattis is a pro. he's this -- you know, this off microphone conversation they knew would be listened to and it was his way of trying to finesse the situation. >> gene robinson, in the spirit of holy week, would you like to say kind flowery things about bolton? i suppose as a conservative if -- john bolton talking to barack obama would concern me less than john bolton talking to donald trump. >> exactly. >> this seems to be, again, not the contrast that you need in this position. >> exactly. john bolton is a loose cannon. he's hawkish and gung-ho and says things that are intemperate and sometimes crazy and guess who he's going to be working for? donald trump. that's not a good combination and it seems more likely to reinforce the president's worst tendencies rather than rein them in and what this president needs is a whole lot of reining in. so in the spirit of holy week, however, happy easter to everybody but i'm not happy john bolton is going to be there. >> gene robinson, thank you very much. >> he tried to be positive. >> richard haass, thank you, i think. >> happy passover, everybody. >> happy passover. >> spirit of holy week. >> don't call. still ahead, in just one month president trump has lost his top economic adviser, top diplomat -- >> that's pretty bad. >> top lawyer in the russia probe. >> that's really bad. >> but don't worry, he has schwartzy. the fixer's fixer running his mouth. >> he's got the fixer's fixer and the doctor that says he weighs 199 pounds, runs a 4:30.40 and can leap tall buildings in a single bound. >> now one of his closest aides hope hicks is gone as well. we'll talk to white house reporter for the associated press, jonathan lemire, about the anxiety in the trump administration following these departures. >> and the head of the v.a., gone. >> we'll also speak to the most recent white house official to be ousted, former v.a. secretary david shulkin will join the conversation coming up on "morning joe." they call him the whisperer. the whisperer? 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ask your doctor if myrbetriq is right for you, and visit myrbetriq.com to learn more. the doctor is there and hope hicks is out. john bolton is running national security and general mcmaster is heading for the door. kelly is marginalized and the president may become his own communications director. as the a.p. frames it, even after the departures, the west wing, anxiety still lingers. that's an understatement. welcome back to "morning joe." it's friday, march 30. john heil imagine ieeilemann is donnie joidonny deutsch and elise jordan. we also have jonathan lemire and chief white house correspondent for the "new york times" peter baker. good to have you on board. >> john heilemann, again, the chaos continues. we've been talking about how the chaos has seemed to accelerate. you've had bob costa reporting throughout the week that republicans on the hill are saying enough is enough. quit changing cabinet officials that we're going to have to somehow confirm on the hill. talk about the chaos and the sense of anxiety that we're hearing about. >> i'm going to turn to jonathan lemire because he's written a whole piece about it but i will say if you think about your congressional republican right now you've gotten -- you did your big thing, now it's the end of march, you're looking toward the midterms in november. what has stretched out before you. on the legislative front, nothi nothing, there the stock market, volatility, the white house, volatility. there's no -- for all of 2017, you are looking at the tax cuts saying we're going to get to this big wish list item that's got to be worked on, that was oasis in the desert. now there's this one. you look at what's been going on in every race we've seen, the picture looks bad. then you look at paul ryan. the speaker of the house who now i believe it's march 30 today, right? march 30. >> right, march 30. >> still hasn't announced he's running for reelection. he's the speaker of the house of representatives. the most important republican, he's not declared he's going to seek reelection in his seat in wisconsin which is a sign for a lot of republicans that, hey, my god, the speaker understands we're about to lose the house and he's about to throw up his hands and walk away. how freaked out are they by everything going on, including donald trump is just throwing up more and more chaos? i think they're freaked out, right, jonathan lemire? >> yes, john heilemann. [ laughter ] >> it would have been great if he said no, you're wrong, you're a moron. >> everything's tool, airtight, no problem. >> what we saw yesterday is hope hicks, the president's -- one of his longest serving aides and one of his closest advisers leave the white house. in a nice moment. the president brought her outside the oval office, there was a hand shake, a kiss on the cheek, hicks has always shied away from publicity, had a moment in the spotlight and a nice good-bye. that's the exception rather than the rule when it comes to white house exits. she was not fired by tweet. she was not fired by a cursory curt phone call by john kelly as david shulkin was a few days prior and there's real anxiety about what could come next. there are cabinet members on the hot seat for ethics question whether it's carson or zinke or pruitt. there's a battle about the next communications director in case the president himself has floated this idea. and there's still jeff sessions who's always in the president's cross hairs and in particular not just because he didn't appoint a special counsel, at least not yet, but he made the grievous sin on appearing on the cover of "time" magazine which we know is the president's favorite publication, he got very upset when steve bannon was on the cover last year, i was talking to someone who knows the president very well yesterday who said in the past trump has said to him that he kind of gets miffed when he's not on the cover every single week. >> well he can make make his own. >> i've got a question. i didn't know steve bannon was on the cover of "time" magazine. >> yes, he was. and trump didn't like that. >> i never knew that. yes, but the president can always make his own. it's fine, don't worry. >> it's fine, you can make your own. he has made his own. >> so listen peter baker, who is the next to go, what do you made make of the uncertainty around -- well, there is going to be someone who's going to go and it will be a massive news deflection but whatever. if the pattern continues there will be more people marching out the door which should be frightening to an extent given the fact that this is a white house with a state department with so many jobs that aren't filled across the globe that we have serious implications. but back to the white house sbreg and the drama here trying to understand what's going on. is john kelly perhaps in jeopardy? does the president think he can be his own white house communications director? and hope hicks leaving, there's been lots of fanfare around that. i'm not sure who gets this weird awkward good-bye in the port go. i've never seen that before. maybe i missed it. and the talk about her being trump's whisperer and a moderating force and gracious, she was able to keep him from doing things that were too extreme. good god, if that's true, what's going to happen now? because i think that might be overplayed like ivanka. >> to some extent, obviously, she was obviously a well-liked figure that white house by all the different tripes, all the different factions that were constantly fighting with each other. for the most part she was one of the people who crossed those lines and she moderated the president to some extent. she also enabled him to some extent. she tried to figure out how to channel his wishes and desires into action when he wanted to meet with reporters, she would be the one who would set it up. when he felt strongly about an issue, she would be the one who would help him express it. i think she tried to keep him from going too far but as you point out anybody in that white house who has tried to restrain this president has seen the limits of their capacity to do that. and you're right, it's the west wing where everybody is wondering if the chandelier is going to fall on their head today. it's friday, we've got nine, ten hours till the end of the work day. who will be here when we walk out the door. nobody is 100% sure. >> nobody knows for sure. donny deutsch, let's talk about what's working for the president and not working for president. john heilemann is dead right. you have a sense of a panic on capitol hill among republicans. they see that their matchups against democrats are going as badly as possible. you have republicans retiring left and right. they know this fall is going to be brutal race and yet donald trump's numbers are creeping up in the high 30s, the low 40s. this is not really hurting donald trump and this theory of chaos is not hurting trump himself and, of course, the irony is if he completely destroys the republican party this fall, which he's going to do most likely, then he empowers democrats who they can then run against in 2020 so while donald trump may be destroying the republican party, if the history is any guide, this play be playing right into his hands for a successful reelection run. >> you go back to elise's focus group. we all run around here and get very excited and our pants get on fire, at least my pants get on fire with russian collusion and is john kelly in or out and what not and to the average american it's how's my job doing. to even the higher end it's how is the stock market doing. are terrorists blowing anything up. you have to begrudgingly outside of all of the human absurdities and deplorable things, i hate to use that word, that was a very bad word for somebody, you have to give him a decent score card -- whether it's his fault or not -- on some of the ways we judge the presidency, the unemployment, the stock market, consumer confidence, some of the other things. where are we standing in the world right now? >> isis. >> i hate to say it but the way america scores things and the way we score things are different and if donald trump ran for reelection he would win big and that is something we have to manage and if i'm on the dnc side of things i'm looking very hard at that. >> elise, your focus group is fascinating and what i always find and i found it over the past few weeks, when i get out of new york and i get out of washington and i talk to my friends i all hear the same things which, yes, i supported him. did you expect me to vote for hillary clinton? and yes i still support him because do you expect me to support nancy pelosi? it's always a binary choice and then i say okay so conducting my own sort of casual focus groups, okay so are you offended by x,yz and they go yes, yes, yes. and the take away i always get is most people that i talk to don't like him. they are offended by his actions. they think he's a terrible example for their children. they wouldn't even the guy over his house for thanksgiving dinner and yet they like his policies, they like his approach on regulations, they like the tax cuts, they like that we're beating isis, and they hate the media. and they don't give a damn about russia. is that basically what you found? >> joe, that really tracks with what we heard and we can play more audio of voters, trump supporters talking about how they're really tired of the tweeting, they don't have any respect for his character but they weren't trying to elect a saint. that's what one woman specifically said. she's not -- and i think right now we're going to play some of that audio. >> he gets stuff done and i voted against hillary and i voted for him because i believed he would get more stuff done as president. >> there's certain things i want done on our economy and work to protect our shores, i don't care about that. that's between them and god. one of the worst presidents we had recently was carter and he was one of the most porl presidents but one of the most ineffective. >> we didn't elect him to be a saint, we elected him to be a leader. >> elise, i get the sense from the people i talked to and i'm sure you do, too, we'll talk and southern terminology. he's like their coach. kind of like yes if you're at louisville you hated rick pitino when he coached at the university of kentucky but when rick pitino became louisville's coach, suddenly he was okay. that didn't work out very well for them and this won't work out very well for america. and the question i ask what is mark cuban ran for as a republic republican? and the people behind trump they'd say of course we'd vote for mark cuban. >> the republican party identification label is under strain even with the strongest trump supporters because they blame congress, the republican congress for donald trump's inability to not get more done. they just feel that so much of the establishment is out to get him so thus he is given a pass and they repeatedly we heard the economy is better, we feel like isis is being taken on, that he's going out and killing terrorists and as long as that's happening then we -- you know, the personal, it might not be what we want our children to immolate but we can really disconnect the personal and the actual policies that the we feel donald trump is implementing to make our lives better. >> so peter baker, it's heilemann here, i want to ask you this question to bring a couple pieces together. we've talked about these things related to points donny is making, objective metrics by which we normally judge presidents that trump is doing okay and that his approval ratings are creeping up amid this chaos. at the same time, the main event, the central story in our politics is trump versus mueller and we had a poll on this show a few days ago that showed an extraordinary degree of public support for what mueller is doing across the board. huge number of depths, huge number of independents and a substantial majority of republicans who say they want to see mueller investigate to the end and find out what happened and they have trust and faith and confidence making it a difficult target for trump to take on. how do you reconcile some of -- that picture? the notion that the country is behind bob mueller and they seem to not care about russia. >> it's a great question. bob mueller handled this in a different way than ken starr did. ken starr became such a magnet for criticism, people assumed he was obsessed by his investigation and there were leaks coming out and bob mueller has run a tight ship. it's hard to latch on to anythi anything, the president sought to make a point that the staff were democrats, but bob mueller is a life long republican, appointed by republican president to be the fbi director and is held in high regard by republicans and democrats in washington so he's been a hard figure, i think, for trump to attack. that's why you've seen this back-and-forth on this from time to time. he's lashed out, the president has, but now he's gone away on this issue so you're right, the public is probably not paying attention to who george papadopoulos is and whether the fisa court properly issued a warrant against carter page. but they think there's something going on and according to polls and they want a solid answer from somebody they can truth who they don't think is partisan. for the moment, bob mueller is that figure. >> and of course you can say the same thing, mika, about watergate. most americans didn't care about watergate until the middle of 1974. and i just have to say this every time where we talk about some of bob mueller's team have contributed to democrats, add that money up, none of them have given close to how much donald trump gave to the democratic national committee, noepancy pelosi, chuck schumer. ra >> still ahead, former secretary david shulkin says the white house kept him from speaking out about taxpayer dollars. now he's gone from government and not holding anything back. the former cabinet official is standing by and joins us live next on "morning joe." st years'n was a success for choicehotels.com badda book. badda boom. this year, we're taking it up a notch. so in this commercial we see two travelers at a comfort inn with a glow around them, so people watching will be like, "wow, maybe i'll glow too if i book direct at choicehotels.com". who glows? 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[ applause ] we'll never have to use those words. we'll never have to use those words on our david. >> that was the president back in june. clearly some things have changed. joining us now, the outgoing secretary of veterans affairs, david shulkin, thank you very much for big on the show this morning. it was very different than hope hicks portico kiss good-bye. you were not notified by the president himself, i believe the same thing happened with mcmaster, who got a phone call from someone else. how did your departure -- how did you find out you would be leaving the white house? >> shortly before the president tweeted out, the chief of staff gave me a call to led me know and gave me a heads up. >> so you were -- kelly told you and then you found out by tweet? >> yes. >> fantastic, so as you leave the cabinet behind, big picture, what are you most concerned about having served in there, seen the dynamics, worked with this president and obviously you're hearing about the investigations closing in or building up in the media surrounding this white house. what are you most concerned about given what you have seen on the inside. >> as you know, i came from the private sector, i was asked by president obama to help straighten out the v.a. so i only have one concern and that is to fix this system for those who have served us and i am very concerned about the future of v.a. and to make sure that this organization stays on track with the type of progress we've been making and that it's not hijacked and dismantled and that's my biggest concern because our veterans need to rely upon a system that cares for them when they put their lives on the line for the country. >> why are you concerned it will be hijacked and dismantled? >> i think there are clear forces that are trying to suggest a v.a. system is not necessary, that the private sector can handle all of the care for our veterans. and we're caring for more than nine million american veterans and many of them have specialized needs. there's research being done by v.a. that no one else is doing and this is a system that is essential not only for veterans but the national security of our country. >> why were you fired? >> there were forces in place, political appointees, that didn't like the way i was managing the department. as you probably know, i believe the v.a. needs to be apolitical, that we have to do things with bipartisan support. i'm very proud of our leadership in congress, we got 11 bills passed last year to improve the v.a. and many believe i should have been driving the much more towards a private sector or privatization approach. >> was trump behind that? >> well, i think the president, as he said, is genuine, he wants to do better for veterans. i don't think he's aware of all of the particular political forces in play at v.a. nor do i expect he would know that detail so i don't think there was a direct knowledge of all these issues but clearly these were political appointees coming out of the administration. >> do you think the president has the intellectual ability to grasp the issues surrounding the v.a., the military and our foreign policy? >> i think the job of the president is a big job with lots to do and understanding the complexity of what happens in v.a. is a very tough thing to do so i don't know that he's had the time to invest in understanding the details. nor should he. he should have a secretary whose job it is. obviously he wanted to make this change, that's his prerogative. but this is a very complex organization, the second largest government organization. >> do you think the president is fit to lead? >> i think that the president has a tough job and it's important that he surround himself with people that have the ability to lead that can do this. and obviously i've described that i think that washington is very chaotic, very, very tough environment, it should not be this hard to come in to serve and that makes me very concerned about what will happen in the future. >> john heilemann? >> mr. secretary, it's john heilemann. the question of your job security has been in the news for a month or so now, a few weeks ago -- i know you went in for a meeting at the white house with the chief of staff and the president, some of the reporting that came out of that meeting suggested your view was part of your problem was that you were being undermined in a conspiratorial way by trump appointees on your staff and you lost trust in people who were placed around you in the department. is that right? >> that is part of what we discussed, that's correct. we spent most of the time discussing the policy issues in v.a. but both of those issues were discussed. >> what were the concerns that general kelly expressed to you that day. what was it that made them say if you don't start doing x y and z, you may be fired. so what were the concerns? >> that's not what happened in the meeting. there was no implied threat. we had a very positive meeting talking about what we needed to do to get the department back on its focus to make sure it was committed to making improvements and part of that is to give the control to the leader of the organization so it was a good meeting where we were ae lined in the outcome. >> so it's a little confusing. if you were aligned in the outcome, now you're out of a job three weeks later so it's clear -- it's also clear there's some difference of opinion about what's at the root of this. you seem to think this ig report about your travel has been mischaracterized, it seems like the white house is hanging a lot of its displeasure on you that you behaved inappropriately in that instance and other instances. try to clarify me. in the context of the broader reporting that we've seen, i think people are confused about where the truth lies. >> well, washington is a confusing place. people are playing lots of games and there's no-no doubt there are many messages out there. this issue of the ig report, frankly not an issue from my perspective. everything was approved ahead of time done in the way where ethics gave me the approval. six months later the ig took a look and found the staff member had done something wrong. i had no knowledge of that. this is about the future of v.a., the privatization of v.a. the president gets lots of opinions and ultimately he has to make up his mind about the direction and leadership of an organization important to the country like v.a. and that's something that you saw he wanted to make a change and that's his prerogative but my concern is the same one that led me to come here in the first place, to see this system fixed and do better for our veterans. >> there's a lot of talk about trump's management style or engagement that he does not read and that he does not have command of the issues. can you take us behind the scenes of a meeting that you had with trump as far as his level of understanding engagement, when you were talking about nine million veterans, when you were talking about the veterans administration do you get a sense he has an understanding of the two or three or four issues at hand or is it just what we see and what the talk is behind the scenes that there is no real engagement there. >> let me try to be fair. when you meet with the president it's a limited amount of time that you have so you're talking about complex issues in a short period of time. he is very inquisitive, asks a lot of questions, but it's not my expectation that he is going understand the intricacies of the v.a. >> did he understand the basic simple principles you were trying to make moves on? >> i do think he understood what i was trying to do. he understood that i believed that we had a lot of fix and he wants to do things faster and sometimes not having a full understanding of the complexities can be frustrating and i'm sure the president was frustrated that more change wasn't happening faster. >> mr. secretary, jonathan lemire. your successor dr. ronny jackson, the white house physician, is someone well liked by people within this white house and the obama white house. most americans simply know him as the gentleman who stood at the podium and delivered the results of the president's physical a few months ago, including some results that raised some eyebrows. my question to you is, though he is well liked, he has no experience running any sort of large organization or bureaucracy. do you think he is qualified to do this job? >> well, i do agree with what you've said. i know dr. jackson personally, i have a great deal of respect for him. i think he has the right values and frankly being comfortable with the president and the president trusting a leader is essential in this administration. that chemistry is absolutely important. i don't think anybody's necessarily prepared for a job this big. i know how complex it is. i think dr. jackson is going to need a good team around him to help him be successful. i think that that's going to be the key in building this. the v.a. right now does not have an undersecretary for health, does not have an undersecretary for benefits, does not have a chief information officer. this is a complex job with a full team in place and that's going to be essential for dr. jackson to build a strong team around him. >> mr. secretary, elise jordan here. going back to your meeting at the white house with general kelly and president trump, did they specifically ask about the ethics violations mentioned in the inspector general report? >> well, before the report was released i made sure i gave them an opportunity to ask any questions that they had and i think we went through that together. >> so you don't think that the lingering issue surrounding the inspector general report played a role in your firing? >> i think that the political appointees used this as a reason to try to question my authority for leadership. i think that this was -- what we see in washington today, allegations thrown out there to get us away what from the issues are. i stayed focus, i don't do politics, i'm a doctor, i stayed focused on the issues related to veterans. that's what i was interested in. other people are interested in playing political games. that's not what i do. >> >> mr. secretary, you've talked about political appointees perhaps having a hand in pushing you out and you talk about the job being really hard and washington being difficult. isn't this ultimately on the president? isn't this ultimately president trump that you were talking about in terms of washington being an impossible place to work, the president not being able to cognitively understand his job and having operatives around that are pushing different concepts and getting in the way of progress? how can you not put this back on president trump? >> well, look, ultimately everything goes up to the leader and there's no question about it. i take responsibility for the things that happened in v.a. as secretary and the president certainly has the ultimate responsibility. you saw that he felt that the decision to make a change at the secretary level was the one that he wanted to do. i understand how complex this organization is and i think that we all as americans need to follow carefully what will happen in the future and what will happen in terms of our country's commitment to taking care of these brave men and women and this is the reason i'm speaking out. i'm not running for office. i feel very, very strongly that we need to stay on track and strengthen the v.a. and if we don't do that there will be serious consequences for the country. >> secretary david shulkin, thank you very much for being on the show this morning. >> glad to be here. still ahead, what happens when you pick a fight with one of the twitter-savvy survivors of the parkland school shooting. you end up apologizing. the latest on laura ingraham's mea culpa. "morning joe" is coming right back. lawy ♪ directv now gives you more for your thing. your letting go thing. your sorry not sorry thing. your out with the old in with the new, onto bigger and better thing. get the live tv you love. no bulky hardware. no satellite. no annual contract. try directv now for $10/mo for 3 months. more for your thing. that's our thing. visit directvnow dot com but prevagen helps your brain with an ingredient originally discovered... in jellyfish. in clinical trials, prevagen has been shown to improve short-term memory. prevagen. the name to remember. fox news's lawyer ing laura apologized yesterday for taunting a survivor of marjory stoneman douglas shooting amid a boycott by advertising. uproar rose when ingraham mocked david hogg's recent college rejection and his 4.1 gpa on twitter wednesday. in response, hogg encouraged his followers to call ingraham's top advertisers to drop the show. by thursday, nine companies had confirmed they were pulling their ad dollars, prompting the fox news host to apologize tweeting "in the spirit of holy week, i apologize for any upset or hurt my tweet caused him or any of the brave victims of parkland. as always, he's welcome to return to the show any time for a productive discussion." hogg was unimpressed by the apology telling the "new york times" "she only apologized after we went after her advertisers. it kind of speaks for itself." owe? >> donny deutsch -- first of all, let's talk about his gpa, a 4.1, 4.2. i think it's safe to say if you added your gpa in high school, my gpa in high school and mika's gpa in high school, all three of us together would not get up to a 4.1 or 4.2 so i'm not sure who mocks any student for being that good of a student. that said just generally -- i'm just talking generally here. i haven't understood for some time politically while -- why anybody would attack young students, high school children, i call them children because i've got -- >> babies. >> i've got kids that are older than they are. who thinks that attacking children, who thinks that spreading false information about children which has not only been spread on conspiracy sights but also on mainstream media sights, who thinks that is going to help them get ahead politically when it's so obvious it's only going to blow up in their faces? >> let's add on attacking children who are two weeks out from hiding under their desk or watching their friends be shot by an automatic weapon. so if you can't have empathy or sympathetic behavior or parental human behavior towards children in general, particularly children coming off a horrific trauma, laura ingraham told lebron james to shut up and dribble and laura ingraham needs to shut up and dribble also. she's a reprehensible human being. and the good news here is the advertisers will speak. you might see laura ingraham saying bye-bye. today -- i'll take you behind the scenes of every ceo right now that advertises on her show. they have in front of them already letters saying dear mr. ceo of pepsi -- i'm not saying pepsi is on there -- are you choosing to stand by laura ingraham? so it's no longer are you part of the debate. if you're endorsing her, you're endorsing her behavior saying this is okay to dump on millennials, this is okay to insult children who have been through a tragedy and any ceo at this point, i don't care where you are politically is going to call up their chief marketing officer and say you know that $400,000 you spent on ingraham, even if you don't take it off fox, move it over. no longer can say "i'm defending that." now it's i'm defending that behavior. so the same way bill o'reilly was -- >> but donny, let me ask you this question. we all make mistakes, i can't imagine ever attacking a young child after they went through this hell but we've all made mistakes. isn't the first thing we ask of people when they make a mistake to say i'm sorry? she apologized and it wasn't one of these halfway apologieapolog was like in the spirit of holy week, i'm sorry. >> it's the timing. >> here's the difference, joe. we are all going to make mistakes. when it's serial behavior and the apology was only for one reason, she was losing advertisers. her behavior stands for itself we can argue about politics but there's just human decentsy we can't have animals on the air attacking children. we can disagree on taxes, on donald trump, on a wall, but basic human decency. enough already. >> john heilemann, it seems there's been a problem at fox over the past six months or so regarding -- like for instance the seth rich murder. sean hannity went on and on with it when he knew that it was false. he had people come on the show and promote it after he'd already been told it was a lie bringing just immeasurable pain to that family. certainly it's something i know about because people have used the pain of a family, the unspeakable pain of a family to try to attack me when they're not hurting me, they're hurting a family. and so you have lawsuits being filed against sean hannity and fox news. i'm just wondering whether actually the president always talks about wanting to make it easier to sue people. i wonder if maybe this becomes the solution that when people step over the line that actually it's tried in the court of law. >> well, i don't know. i'm not a big fan of the notion -- i like our libel laws, it's good for the country and good for the press that it's hard to sue a media organization for libel and you have to prove malice and so on and if you can make that case, you should make it. i will say that i think what's interesting about the fox news piece of this, joe, is that they used to have i think a pretty good idea of who their audience was and where the lines were. what kinds of provocations worked with their base and that they could engage in that wouldn't go over the line and draw them into a place where they were going to the incur economic penalties and other kinds of political penalties. on both the seven rich thing and in this case it's like they overshot the landing. they seem to not get that where you can -- what they can get away with in the context, in that bubble they live in in where they are -- where they put a foot wrong where they can really get cross wise with mainstream opinion in a way that costs them much more power than any any kind of legal judgment that can be brought against them is the kind of thing donny is talking about. that's what hurts bill o'reilly, that's what hurts laura ingraham when these sponsors decide these guys are beyond the pale. they used to know where they line was, now they find themselves on the wrong side of it. i can't help but think that part of the explanation for it is trump because they are -- they have -- it's one thing to be a propaganda wing of the republican party. it's another thing to become a propaganda wing of the tru trumpified republican party where conspiracy theory and fabrication and fake news and things beyond the pale are so much part of what donald trump's republican party thrives on. that now is what fox news being part of that ecosystem is being dr dragged into and it realizes there's risk to the basic business model if they keep going in this direction. >> well, certainly there's some issues with hannity and ingram obvio -- ingraham plays out. >> it's personal relationships with the president they're navigating. >> she did apologize. we'll see how that plays out. you have other people in fox news, though, this is a prime time issue. i've always said when people talk about msnbc, i've said there's day side, there's our show. sort of like the front of the paper and then you have prime time and those are the opinion pages. that's something thatsh shep smh has pointed out at fox news, bret baier does a great job, chris wallace does it straight up. but there is no doubt, mika that there are some challenges in prime time right now as it pertains to going up to the line and sometimes stepping over the line. roger ailes with glenn beck knew when it was time to pull glen el bakraoui and also knew when it was time to send glen backpacking. and that's one of the questions i'm sure fox is grappling with. coming up, president trump was no fan of jeff sessions' decision to recuse himself from the russia probe. now the attorney general made another move that may set off his boss. that's ahead on "morning joe." and we want to mention our compelling interview with pulitzer prize winning author lawrence wright. he produced a new drama "the looming tower" based on his best-selling book. it's a ten-part mini series available on hulu and ties directly with the larger conversation about the state of u.s. intelligence and the u.s. intelligence community. you can find our full interview with lawrence wright right now on joe.msnbc.com. we use our phones and computers the same way these days. so why do we pay to have a phone connected when we're already paying for internet? shouldn't it all just be one thing? that's why xfinity mobile comes with your internet. you can get up to 5 lines of talk and text included at no extra cost. so all you pay for is data. see how you could save $400 or more a year. plus, for a limited time, get a $250 prepaid card when you buy any new samsung. xfinity mobile. it's a new kind of network designed to save you money. click, call, or visit an xfinity store today. attorney jeff sessions jeff sessions told congress he will not appoint a second special counsel. republicans had been calling for it over allegation s over political bias in the fbi favoring hillary clinton. >> i've got to stop again. >> i know, every time. >> i know we want to read this story. will someone tell the republican party, will someone tell the republican leaders on capitol hill. will someone tell nunez on capitol hill that comey he's letter ten days before the election was one of the main reasons donald trump one and actually mccabe's leak hurt hillary clinton. >> they can't do that, joe. >> it's madness. i mean, there's so much to say here. i want to ask john, sessions, in all of this, there's the issues of recusal. should he even be involved in the conversation or not. is he safe? >> he is safe for now. being on the cover of time magazine as discussed probably didn't help. president trump a lot of republicans wanted the special counsel. sessions has not ruled it out entirely. he had said he appointed federal prosecutor from utah to conduct a review and eventually will give a recommendation whether a special counsel should be appointed. >> jonathan, we're talking about again about carter page whose action leading up throughout 2016 when donald trump told "the washington post" in the spring he was his top foreign policy adviser, that would raise questions from anybody and you had four republican appointed fisa judges actually sign off on this. >> there's no question this is a belief it's simply an attempt to distract. you try to equate this with the bob mueller probe. the republicans could point to this and say look, there's krum corruption here. there's bias here. therefore it muddies the water and undermines the credibility of what mueller is doing. that is what democrats feel and trump of course wants this to happen to this point sessions remains in hot water with the president has held him off. >> mika, if anything, there was bias against hillary clinton in the final stages of the campaign with the letter and also with mccabe's leak which talked about the clinton foundation being investigated and almost like the fbi was pushing back on what they thought was improper interference from loretta limyn. they leaked time, and, again, saying they didn't appreciate barack obama getting involved in the investigation by saying there was nothing there time and time again. the fbi did donald trump's bidding whether they intended to or not. >> jonathan, thank you. still ahead, russia is expelling dozens of diplomats and closing american consulate in st. petersburg and nothing, but sadness from the president. new reporting donald trump is telling his aides not to talk about russia. bring in a new exclusive reporting. plus hear from trump voters on what they think about the russia probe and the mueller probe. "morning joe" will be right back. to make decisions when you know what comes next. if you move your old 401(k) to a fidelity ira, we make sure you're in the loop at every step from the moment you decide to move your money to the instant your new retirement account is funded. ♪ oh and at fidelity, you'll see how all your investments are working together. because when you know where you stand, things are just clearer. ♪ just remember what i said about a little bit o' soul ♪ things are just clearer. want us to do about what woulthis president?fathers i'm tom steyer, and when those patriots wrote the constitution here in philadelphia, they created the commander in chief to protect us from enemy attack the justice department just indicted 13 russians for an electronic attack on america. so what did this president do? nothing. he's failed his most important responsibility - to protect our country. the question is: why is he still president? you saw those beautiful pictures. it's properly designed. that's what i do is i build. i was always very good at building. it was always my best thing. i think better than being president, i was good at building. like you people, you're good at building. actually the military is paying for it. did he do that chant yesterday? i'm wondering he said who is going to pay for it? is united states marine corps. >> he didn't do that one after a week of seclusion. president trump hitting the trail to talk specifically, specifically about infrastructure. and also row san and tv ratings and fake news. sanne and tv rat and fake news. rose ann donny deutsche is with us. elise jordan is here. president of the counsel on foreign relations and author of the book a world in disarray, richard haas. prize winning columnist, eugene robinson is with us. and national political reporter for nbc news bringing more news this morning, karl lcarol lee. seems almost certain the day long silence was prompted by stormy daniels last sunday on 60 minutes. new details in the porn star's push for her lawyer to question president trump for two hours. plus, how 56 words may have just sunk the trump team's position in the stormy daniels' litigation. it all stems from a sound bite we played on the show yesterday. it's the attorney's attorney. yeah, he ran his mouth. i don't know why they let him talk. we're going to dig into that with law professor straight ahead. >> of course. we'll have him talking -- first, i got to go back to donald trump's speech. it is so fascinating and donny deutsche, you're a marketing guy. it's so fascinating his punch line was we're going to build a wall. who is going to pay for it, mexico. gets a budget deal he absolutely hates. because nobody is going to pay for the wall. donald trump is trying to get the united states marine corp., united states navy, men and women in the army, and the air force, the national guard to actually have money stripped out of their accounts to build a wall that nobody wants. he actually goes out there and he has the audacity to say, hey, we've got this beautifully designed wall and i told you we were going to build it. we're not building it. and i'm sure the american people certainly the good people of ohio, obviously know he's lying. the question is how long does this lie continue because mexico is not paying for the wall. he didn't even get the funding and his own republican allies saying we don't need that money. basically i will continue to be your white president to protect white america from the immigrants out there. it will never go away. he can get re-elected. it can be six years from now and that is his probably number one whistle blow to always say here i am, 30%. here i am 35%. i'm not going anywhere. we're going to protect you from all of the bad people of different colors that come into this country and the irony of the whole thing is he's mr. defense. mr. military. mr. veteran. and by the way, if i have to feed my friend harvey, i'll take it from the military. >> i'm going to strip it out of the military readiness account. we' it seems sometimes when your lawyers, lawyers, lawyers start talking, you get in trouble and that's exactly what jonathan has said. that when we played the clip yesterday and when donald trump's lawyer's lawyer came out and said what he said a couple of days ago, well, actually he undermined trump's case and cohen's case against stormy daniels and his attorney. >> and joe, look, there's various things to say about the specifics of this. i'm sure i'm going to talk about it today. just ends up getting back to this -- the fundamental thing which is donald trump's in the same ways he says he has the best words and hires the best people. he's in a world of legal difficu difficulty. he has nothing like the best people around him. he's got essentially the not even the b team, but the c team of legal talent on both his private matters and his government matters and eventually when you surround yourself with mediocre talent, as we all know, eventually they will lead you into trouble. that seems to be happening on both sides. happening now on the thing that poses a threat to him, to his presidency, and also on the thing that poses what he is most personal about. things that took place outside his marriage. >> so many people in trouble right now in the mueller investigation. in trouble in part because they were winging it because they were just thinking they were smarter than everybody else when they were more ignorant than anybody i also on how you run a transition. how you run the white house. they made a lot of really stupid mistakes. paul manafort stands alone as someone who actually used this. as a business policy. business structure to do deals with russia. so many other people in the administration got in trouble because they were just winging it. to say donald trump knows nothing about this deal with stormy daniels. in so doing, tell us why, they probably sunk their defense and probably now blown apart twhat donald trump wants to desperately take place. >> they'll say he's not an attorney. he doesn't know. then why put him out there. it all comes together very badly in a case pertaining to a woman who has a story. who has a real contract. it's not going to go well. i can assure anyone who is concerned about that or who has a different idea. we're going to get to all of that. first, overnight, russia's defense ministry released video of what it says is a test of a new heavy icbm called sarmat. adding it was successful. one of the missiles putin showcased during his speech earlier this year. comes after russia yesterday announced retaliatory measures against the united states. expected move comes after the u.s. expelled 60 russian spies and closed russia's seattle consulate in response to poisoning of exspy and daughter in the uk. -spy and daughter in the uk. in addition to closing of kons late in st. petersburg. ordering it shutdown by tomorrow. multiple senior officials tell nbc news that trump has told aides not to talk about public moves the white house implements against russia. according to officials the reasoning stems from continued hope for better relations with putin in addition to ongoing refusal to be seen as giving into the media or critics who question his praise or silence towards the russian leader. for instance, after it was announced the u.s. will supply weapons to you craukrane ukrain it really got under the president's skin. and trump proceeded to call the leaders of france, germany and uk saying putin sounded dangerous and urging all four nations to stick together according to white house officials familiar with the calls. in addition, according to two officials, during trump's call to putin last week, adding if you want to have an arms race, we can do that, but i'll win. then bragged about america's defense budget. >> trying to figure out what is being talked about when debates and decisions are made. there's a serious divide between the per son that he puts forward on the policy and actual policy. the president has to be coerced for months to make decisions that his team wants him to make such as arms for ukraine. once he does that in normal press operation would say let's roll this out and message this. he doesn't want anyone to. he's trying to do this thing where he wants to be tough on russia policy-wise under pressure from advisers while not angering putin because he holds out this hope it will help him get better relations. one interesting thing officials told us is they tried to flip that to motivate him to say great, you want to have better relations with russia, the way to do that is show strength. that's what putin responds to. you need to take these steps. that's been a go to move for them. that's been helpful. >> richard, there has been this disconnect. not just over the past few months. there's been times you heard the secretary of defense continuing 15 years of u.s. policy towards russia. you had the vice president going to eastern europe and sounding more like ronald reagan than even barack obama would have maybe sounded like in traditional cold war. same thing with nikki haley at the united nations. never minced words. is there really a disconnect between u.s. policy today towards russia and barack obama or george w. bush was president. >> in substance, not that much. some areas the policy is tougher compared to the obama administration. that is thing withnee willingne ukraine. a significant step. one a lot of us thought we should have taken years ago. we welcome in that. the president has a point. it's not the sort of thing you want to rub putin's face in it. do it quietly. the inexapplicable part of this possible is the unwillingness to deal with the russian interfere interference in the political process. i don't think it's a fundamental divide between what happened before and what's happening now. it's just the president is unwillingness to take russia on. in various domains of what he's doing. >> still ahead on morning joe, you can argue that democrats have their heads in the sands during the 2016 election. are republicans at risk of doing the same thing now? we're hearing from voters firsthand and we'll play that next on "morning joe." with tough food, your dentures may slip and fall. new fixodent ultra-max hold gives you the strongest hold ever to lock your dentures. so now you can eat tough food without worry. fixodent and forget it. i had severe fatigue, became diagnosed with hodgkin's lymphoma. he was a good candidate for immune therapy, which is allowing his immune system to attack the tumor. learn more at cancercenter.com welcome back. speaking with trump voters in tennessee and mississippi. here's some of what they had to say about russia and the russia investigation. >> i come from the days of the cold war. if we can find ways to coexist. i'm not saying we're going to be best buddies, but let's find neutral territory and see if with can't identify some mutual goals. >> trust me, trump media been a million. trying to find that link. no one has been able to. makes me wonder if there is a link. >> i personally it's because of the media. the more mud you can stir the easier it is to keep him from doing his job. >> yes. it's some of the -- campaigning this president and his supporters have participated in seems to be paying off. >> well, you know, the focus in these focus groups, the trump supporters we spoke to overwhelmingly really see the russia investigation as a witch pu hunt. they blame the media for gemming it up and bringing it to a fever pitch of hysteria about poor president they think is trying to fe get things done and the establishments is actively opposing him. you look at how donald trump and his language on russia and his rhetoric about putin and his lack of skepticism of the russia interference and election. and it really has trickled down to his strongest supporters, and, you know, we didn't play this clip, but there is a moment in one of the focus groups where we were discussing the poisoning in london and one of the participants is telling us, it's just too obvious. it's too perfect that the russians would do that because they're the only ones that manufacturer that particular poison. it couldn't be them because it's too obvious. that's kind of the just the level of skepticism that is circulating about anything that is said that goes against the narrative that donald trump is presenting. you might remember he hesitated, the president did, to necessarily finger london in that particular attack. even though it was immediately fairly obvious that, yes, the russians were involved. >> i would hesitate to comment on what these americans believe, but i do think democrats ought to take notes right now. >> by the way, i won't hesitate. they're dead wrong. they're dead wrong. >> at least they're there. >> and they're dead wrong. they are entitled to their own opinions. they're not entitled to their own facts. if they want to be willingly ignorant of what's going on. if they think 13 russians were indicted for the hell of it and that was fake news, you know what, then they get the government that they deserve. there's no sticking your head in the sand. again, it happens on both sides. there were a large number of democrats back in 2005 and 2006 that believed that george w. bush took down the twin towers and here's part of the conspiracy. yes, they had a right to believe that, but they were ignorant and they were wrong. >> i would argue the democrats had their heads in the sand during the entire election. that's why we're here today and they should take notes and listen to these voters who support trump. coming up on morning joe. interview with the latest former member of the trump administration. outgoing veterans affairs secretary, david shulkin joins us moments ago with his reaction of being fired by the president or rather by the president's chief of staff after meeting with the president. "morning joe" is coming right back. what does it take to make digital transformation actually happen? it takes dell technologies, a family of seven technology leaders working behind the scenes to make the impossible... reality. we're helping to give cars the power to read your mind from anywhere... and we're helping up to 40% of the nation's donated blood supply to be redirected to the people that need it most. magic can't make digital transformation happen... but we can. in our last hour, we spoke live with david shulkin who was fired two days ago as secretary of veterans affairs. now he's speaking out on what may have triggered his dismissal and why he says it's so hard to serve in washington. it was very different than hope hicks. you were not notified by the president himself. i believe the same thing happened with mcmaster who got a phone call from someone else. how did your departure, thousand did you find out you were going to leave the white house. >> shortly before the president tweeted out that chief of staff gave me a call and gave me a heads-up. >> so kelly told you and then you found out by tweet. >> yes. >> fantastic. so as you leave the cabinet behind, big picture, what are you most concerned about? having served in there, seen the dynamics, worked with this president and obviously you're hearing about the investigation is closing in or building up in the media, surrounding this white house. what are you most concerned about given what you have seen on the inside? >> well, mika, as you know i came from the private sedctor. i was asked by president obama to straighten out the va. i had one concern and that is to fix the system for those who served us. i am very concerned about the future of va and make sure this organization stays on track with the type of progress we've been making and that it's not hijacked and dismantled. and that's my biggest concern because our veterans need to rely upon the system that cares for them when they go off and put they're lives on the line for the country. >> why are you concerned it will be hijacked and dismantled. >> there are forces that are trying to suggest the va system is not necessary. the private sector can handle all the care for our veterans. we're caring for more than 9 million american veterans. many of them have very specialized needs. there's research being done by va that no one else is doing. this is a system that is absolutely essential not only for veterans, but for the national security of our country. >> why were you fired. >>. >> as you probably know, i believe the va needs to be ail political. we need to do things with bipartisan support. i'm very proud of leadership in congress. 11 bills passed last year to improve the va. many believe i should have been driving this much more towards a private sector or privatization approach. >> >> was trump behind that. >> i think the president as he said is genuine. he wants to do better for veterans. i don't think that he's aware of all the particular political forces in va. nor do i expect he would know that detail. i don't think there was direct knowledge of the president of all these issues, but clearly these were political oi point tees coming out of the administration. do you think the president has the ability to grasp the issue? >> i think the job of the president is a big job with a lot to do. understanding the complexity of what happens in va is a very tough thing to do. so that i just don't know that he's had the time to invest in understanding the details nor should he. he should have the secretary whose job that is. he wanted to make this change. that's his prerogative, but this is a very complex organization. second largest government organization. >> do you think the president is fit to lead? >> i think that the president has a very tough job and it's important that he surround himself with people that have the ability to lead. that can do this. obviously i've described it. i think that away is very chaotic. very, very tough environment. it should not be this hard to come in and serve. that makes me very concerned about what is going to happen in the future. coming up on morning joe, the rosanne reboot. 18 million people watched the new premier and president trump sure liked it. just how important of a pop culture moment is this? columnist calls it a walkup call for hollywood. learning how to speak in rosanne could save the republic. they both join us next on "morning joe." ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ how could you have voted for him, rosanne. >> he talked about jobs, jackie. we almost lost our house. >> have you looked at the news. now things are worse. >> not on the real news. >> oh, please. >> our country had very little pride. look back. see what's happening. even look at rosanne. i called her yesterday. look at her ratings. look at her ratings. i got a call from mark. he did the apprentice. he said donald i called to say hello and to tell you did you see rosanne's ratings. i said mark, how big were there. they were unbelievable. over 18 million people. and it was about us. they haven't figured it out. the fake news hasn't figured it out yet. they have not figured it out. they haven't figured it out. they will. when they do, they'll become much less fake. >> joining us now. editor of commentary magazine. columnist at the new york post. john writes in the post that the rosanne revival is a wakeup call for hollywood. the premier episode of revival of rosanne featured working class grandmother saying grace before dinner and concluded saying thanks for making america great again. and the show got the highest ratings of any network program in six years. one might also point out the first episode aired on tuesday was absolutely sensational, but of course the people who watched in droves couldn't after known the episode was going to be good. what america might have known about the new rosanne before tuning it was it was going to be the very rarest of birds at this cultural moment. a hollywood product that wasn't going to use trump as a punch line or use trump supporters as a economic punching bag. that is for sure. joe. where the show did well. the three top citieies were tul, since cincinnati and pittsburg. what we're seeing here is a program that went right at the trump voter and got the trump voter. there's been a lot of talk this show was a way of us reaching out to each other. talking and coming to concord the way rosanne and her sister jackie do on that episode. i'm not sure that's the real story. the real story is if you serve an underserved cultural population something it might like, there are riches to be reaped and told always hollywood responds to the bottom line and to the almighty dollar and we'll see whether this lesson is learned and whether the networks and movie studios try to play into the trump voter instead of trying to alienate the trump voter. >> fascinating. >> it may be one off. when he did the easter movie. did really well. movie studios didn't want to pick it up and made so much more money than anyone could have expected in the passion of the christ. then we look at those cities and it reminds me of what johnny carson the advice johnny carson gave to other late night talk show hosts said you don't win on the coast. you win in the central time zone. certainly in this case that happened. white working class vote in the 2016 exit polls. what that tells me in part is people are still working off of bad data about what the constitution of the united states electoral and american people. >> this is donny very quickly. isn't this by the way the number one show is ncis. big part of this news is the demo that watches appointment television, when it's actually on the air, when ratings count, are the more red state, lower income, lower education and yes when you put that on broadcast television, l 3 television. those numbers are always going to be higher. i don't see there's that much news here. a good show and good revival that hits the audience that still watches broadcast television. can't extrapolate broadcast television. >> good point. >> clear in the run up to rosanne and the fight she had on jimmy kimmel how he had gone to liberal and she had stayed where she was. there was a real signal this show was going to play directly into the themes of the 2016 election. and rather than turning off people, it seemed to have excite a lot of people. >> and it has my former chief of staff and i always said back in 1994, 1995, said, could you imagine what would happen if a center right news network actually went on the air. they would own 50% of the population. has to do with market share. right now, there aren't a lot of people in rosanne's space, the show's space. certainly, you think that has a lot to do with the 18 million people that watched? >> i don't think -- i think we're getting a little excited. i agree with donny here. if you look at the cities we just put up on the screen. one of the cities that showed it very well is the blue place of chicago. let's not get out of hand. rosanne is a revival. she has her audience. people are excited about that. doesn't mean demographically we're seeing perfectly narrow cast of republican message. rosanne is who rosanne is. we're in an age of micro casting. she did well with her demographic. includes blue states. includes places like chicago. doesn't mean suddenly we're sitting here talking about political genius. i also love how the president wants to take credit for bringing the audience to them. he's out there crowing about this. >> it's amazing. >> feels like stuart smiley on "saturday night live." stand up there and be like i'm good enough. people like me. this is all about me. that whole thing sitting in ohio talking about jobs and instead bragging about rosanne's ratings was bizarre. >> also, obviously when whooer we're talking about the tweets she's tweeted out. whether about seth witch or info war conspiracy theories, no doubt she has gone to the extreme of a political spectrum. >> i'm not a fan of rosanne the person. i did enjoy one episode i watched. eanne the person. i did enjoy one episode i watched. working class white people make claims to be against identity politics. they crave identity politics. they want to be part of it. they want to be seen and witnessed the way people of color and women are demanding representation and attention. after the show, insurance medicine, doesn't work. football stitch. there was an effort to kind of pay respect and pay attention to the details of a certain demographic's life. i hope those folks will understand that other people want to be represented and that's what the demands and conflicts are about. the question are the revival rates is it only kind of demagogues like donald trump and peddlers of conspiracy theories like roseanne who can speak to these people? can there be goodell vacated thoughtful future oriented political leaders who can speak to these people, make them feel witnessed, seen and understood that actually elevate them and lead them to a better place instead of make them hate people and try to shutdown the post war. >> i got to say i'm with my friends. i just -- if you think about what lesson does this have for hollywood or television industry, the network audience for not just appointment trump administration, but it's a shrinking audience. if you're hollywood and thinking about how do i reach america, you don't think about network prime time television. you think about streaming services and online and the way that giant huge rising demographic of young people. politically diverse and all turning off network television. you can find 19 million people who want to watch roseanne because she's super famous. and they make really good television. you're going to find 19 million people. that's great. all for it. i thought the episode was good and actually had my father's couch in the middle of the roseanne couch. probably the reason i love it. just don't think it holds some great lesson for hollywood to cater to shrinking part of the market and demographic that watches television that way. let's just shift away from popular culture and shift towards political culture. you are a man who knows a fair amount about data. we discussed on this show. i have not had a satisfactory answer yet. washington is in chaos. white house is in chaos. republicans in a panic. everything seems to be going wrong. paul ryan hasn't figured if he's going to run for election yet. in the midst of all this, donald trump's approval ratings are going up? how is that. >> he has a very solid base that is unmovable. the only thing he's had one play football team. >> he's going up. >> let's give him credit this moment. he has had upward movement in a lot of polling. i was confused. given the chaos. given sdonltormy daniels: given mueller. what explains the fact he has an upward tick. >> the economy. it's all about the economy. studying them in the battleground states over the course of the last few years. weekly conversation with them. move on donald trump with how they view the economy. so the ups and downs of the stock market doesn't matter to them. they're doing okay so he's doing okay. as long as he's not messing them up too badly with tweets and other stuff, they're okay with him. they're going to sit there until they think he's not focusing on the economy. >> i heard that reflected in jackson, mississippi along voters who voted for obama. then they voted for bernie sanders. then they ended up voting for donald trump. while they weren't super enthusiastic about him, they felt the economy was doing well and could tell a difference in their paychecks because of the tax cut. >> i mean, that's what i hear time and time again when i'm outside of washington or new york. i hear time and time again, no, i don't like him. his tweets drive me crazy, but you know what, the regulatory relief that the businesses have gotten, i know people who now have a job because some of the regulations have been lifted. the tax cuts have helped other people. i've gotten more money in my paycheck. i hear that time and time again. people may not like donald trump, but they feel like his policies are making them better off economically. >> john, let's end where we began and that is with you talking about how extraordinary this was. and actually i've got to say, 18 million people watching network television. >> we have this future of streaming services and a more diverse america. that may be true. real hit on a streaming service gets 3 million people to watch. this is almost 20 million by the time the week is out with delayed ratings and all of that. the whole point here is that th the now in favor of a glorious demographically liberal future is all well and good, and look where it got hillary clinton in 2016. >> exactly. >> with this idea if she spoke to the new people, she could avoid and ignore the older people and the current people and, you know, abc itself claims that it undertook a study of american culture after the november 2016 election to see where it was underserving and that this show is a direct outgrowth of that effort. so you can say that it doesn't mean anything. abc thinks it means something. and it's going to program into this world that it decided to examine. >> well, you know, mika, the problem is of course there was the new coalition that hillary clinton went after, ignored the old coalition. now though we have -- the problem is now it's turned 180 degrees. you have donald trump that's looking at the old coalition and offending the new coalition. neither approach is a winning strategy in 2020. >> no, but the democrats definitely -- they forgot about those 18 million people who watched "roseanne" for sure. up neck, it's a role al sharpton would be happy to give up. all too often he's called to the side of families of those killed in shootings including incidents involving the police. reverend sharpton is here with his thoughts on how to stop the trend and what he hopes the white house will do about it. your letting go thing. your sorry not sorry thing. your out with the old in with the new, onto bigger and better thing. get the live tv you love. no bulky hardware. no satellite. no annual contract. try directv now for $10/mo for 3 months. more for your thing. that's our thing. visit directvnow dot com where we're changing withs? contemporary make-overs. then, use the ultimate power handshake, the upper hander with a double palm grab. who has the upper hand now? start winning today. book now at lq.com. i'm the one clocking in when you're clocking out. sensing your every move and automatically adjusting to help you stay effortlessly comfortable. i can also help with this. does your bed do that? oh. i don't actually talk. though i'm smart enough to. i'm the new sleep number 360 smart bed. let's meet at a sleep number store. my bladder leakage was making me feel like i couldn't spend time with my grandson. now depend fit-flex has their fastest absorbing material inside, so it keeps me dry and protected. go to depend.com - get a coupon and try them for yourself. hundreds gathered at a sacramento church yesterday to remember 22-year-old stephon clark. clark was fatally wounded after officers fired 20 shots at the father of two in the backyard of his grandparent's home. police, who were responding to a 911 call reporting that a man was smashing car windows, said at the time they believed the cell phone that was in clark's hand was a gun. the extremely emotional service capped a week of high tensions as clark's family and civil rights leaders have called for justice in clark's death. reverend al sharpton delivered a eulogy yesterday at the funeral service. >> yesterday the president's press secretary said this is a local matter. no, this is not a local matter. they've been killing young black men all over the country. and we are here to say that we're going to stand with stephon clark and the leaders of his family. we are putting aside our differences. it's type for preachers to come off the pulpit. it's time for politicians to come out of the office. it's time for us to go down and stop this madness. >> and reverend sharpton joins us now. reverend, thanks for being with us. how do we stop this madness? >> well, i think, joe, we had began with the whole police commission that president obama had started. talking about cameras on police and real reform. having police chiefs and executives at the table with those that deal with reform. and when this new administration came in, many of us, probably five or six of us in the national rights -- met with jeff sessions. he said, i'm going to wipe all that away. what's worse is when trump said very publicly on long island as president to police, why are you being nice when you're arresting people, you know, all this niceness about putting their head down when you're putting them in the car. i think he used a derogatory term. >> right. >> i think this sets a tone. what people are missing about sacramento, the police who shot this young black man were black themselves. this is about right and wrong. a number of incidents. a black and white cop that shoots 20 times at an unarmed man. when you have a helicopter above head that could have told them he went in this building. why are you shooting him? >> so al, we have seen that. we've seen hispanic officers panic outside of cars. seemingly because they were ill equipped, became fearful and started doing absolutely everything wrong. with tragic consequences. you and i have talked about a lot of need for cameras on every police officer. is there a training component to this as well? i mean, that we just have to work harder across the nation and make this a nationwide effort? >> i think there's definitely a training component. i also think there must be an enforcement component. people need to understand that law enforcement, they will be punished if they break the law. they'll be punished if they step outside of procedure. i think one of the most egregious things i heard when the family called me is that they had on tape the policemen actually said mute your sound immediately after they shot him. so what is the point of having body cameras if the police can mute the sound whenever they want? that smells like you're trying to cover up. if you had the presence of mind to say "mute your sound," wouldn't you have had the presence of mind to think before you shot 20 times? >> i've always said since we've been talking about this, if you have a police camera and the police camera goes off right before the incident in question starts, i mean, your presumption of innocence goes away. >> absolutely. >> and in a case like this, where it looks premeditated, that they turned it off purposely, i'm sorry, it seems that the prosecutor has to be able to look at that skeptically. >> i think it makes clear we don't just have a technology problem in america, this is a 400 year old problem that you're talking about. i want to ask you about this issue, as you watch parkland and the question of who gets to form a movement that galvanizes a nation. because there are many parklands worth of unnecessary and tragic murders in the african-american community that don't get this kind of movement. what has to change for everybody to be part of this movement? >> i think we've got to see that we're in a collective here. that we've got to deal with each other's issues to deal with our own. you know, wednesday coming is the 50th anniversary of martin luther king's assassination. martin luther king was trying to show all people that you have an interest in this and you can't solve your interest without dealing with everyone else's interest. i think that's one of the reasons i encouraged a lot of us. and i went to the march with thosing you teenagers last week. are because i think that you cannot just say solve gun control in chicago, don't worry about whites, whites cannot be concerned about chicago. we've got to solve it all. and we also got to deal with policemen that are out of line. and we've got to deal with racial inequality. and i think gender equality. i think we've got to be able to see that we're not each other's problem. we can be each other's solution if we come together. >> those are great words for this good friday. i hope you and your family have a blessed good friday, easter and passover and holy week. reverend al sharpton, thank you. we want to thank all of you for watching. mika, early in the show, we mentioned some comments by david schwartz. >> yes, the attorney for president trump's attorney. the fixer for the fixer as we joked sort of. on wednesday, he insisted that donald trump was not aware of the nondisclosure contract signed by stormy daniels and wasn't told about that. he emphasized that. he was asked repeatedly about it. that could open up a whole new chapter in the importaporn starl case. schwartz just sent us a statement, saying my statement that michael cohen did not tell donald trump about the nda or the payment is not new news. michael cohen made that statement from the very beginning. it's nothing new. schwartz will have much more to say on monday, when he joins us here on "morning joe." that should be interesting. >> that does it for us this morning. i'm remembering my father. >> yes, his birthday. >> today was his birthday. and remembering him as always. dad, i love you. chris jansing picks up the coverage right now. >> hello, i'm chris jansing in for stephanie ruhle. this morning, russia strikes back.

Transcripts For MSNBCW The Last Word With Lawrence ODonnell 20180515

the resistance of the president of the united states. donald trump's most unforgiving critics agree with the spirit of the statement the president gave today even if they might choose different words. as with most trump statements, it need not be said that no president in history said anything like that. today donald trump actually said his white house staff, quote, are traitors and cowards. for any white house staffers for whom working for donald trump wasn't shameful enough today, they can now add to their shame that even donald trump thinks they are traitors and cowards in a tweet this afternoon, the president said the so-called leaks coming out of the white house are a massive overexaggeration put out by the fake news media in order to make us look as bad as possible. with that being said, leakers are traitors and cowards, and we will find out who they are! so the leaks from the trump white house are fake but donald trump thinks that leakers, white house leakers are traitors and cowards and he's trying to find out who they are. and while he is busy trying to find out who they are, 22 of those traitors and cowards teamed up to supply "the washington post" with its latest story based entirely on leaks the president is trying to stop. about a day in the life of the president under investigation. the president vents to associates about the fbi raids on his personal attorney michael cohen, as often as 20 times a day in the estimation of one confidant. and they frequently listen in silence, knowing little they say will soothe him. trump gripes that he needs better tv lawyers to defend him on cable news. he plots his battle plans with former new york mayor rudolph q. giuliani, his new legal consigliere. 20 times a day. the white house staff who the president now calls traitors and cowards also told "the washington post" quote they privately express worries that the probe may yet ensnare more figures in trump's orbit, including family members. there is worry about trump's eldest son and son-in-law and. last night john hileman delivered the moment last week when stormy daniels' lawyer, michael avenatti dramatically changed our understanding of what michael cohen was up to in trump world before the fbi raided his home, his office and his hotel room. >> you got a tweet written? >> two tweets. >> two tweets. >> this is the first tweet. after significant investigation, we have discovered that mr. trump's attorney, mr. cohen received approximately $500,000 from a company controlled by a russian oligarch with close ties to mr. putin, these moneys may have reimbursed the $130,000 payment. >> that's a big deal. give me the second tweet. >> mr. trump and mr. cohen have a lot of explaining to do. it was just sent. >> it was just sent. >> there it is. >> john hileman and michael avenatti will join us in a moment. michael avenatti's revelations about millions of dollars received by michael cohen for questionable consulting was all confirmed and then some by follow-up reports in newspapers, only that michael avenatti had understated the total amounts paid by some of those cooperations. today's wall street journal, he would tell prospective clients large corporations worried about their lack of connections to president donald trump's administration, that he didn't know who he was advising them but should fire them all. i have the best relationship with the president on the outside, and you need to hire me. mr. cohen told them, according to this person. michael cohen traded on his labelling of himself as the president's lawyer and leaned all the more heavily on companies that did not want to do business with him. mr. cohen repeatedly pitched uber, which said no, citing mr. cohen's ownership of new york taxi medallions as a potential conflict of interest with the ride hailing firm a person close to the company said. he modified his pitch in response to those objections, reminding the company he was the president's lawyer, this person said. michael avenatti has once again expanded the dimensions of the michael cohen story by tweeting yesterday video images captured in the lobby of trump tower during the transition on december 12, 2016. those images show michael cohen close to a bald man who appears to be amid rumahi and another shot that some -- that same day of michael cohen in the lobby of trump tower with michael flynn. in a follow-up tweet michael avenatti said, why was amed al-rumaihi meeting with michael cohen and michael flynn in december of 2016 and why did mr. al-rumaihi later brag about bribing administration officials according to a sworn declaration filed in court? joining us now with what we hope is the answer to his own question, michael avenatti the attorney for stormy daniels. also with us john heilman, national affairs analyst for nbc and msnbc, and joyce vance is with us, former federal prosecutor, a professor at the university of alabama school of law and an msnbc contributor. michael avenatti so do you have the answer to your question about what michael cohen was up to there in the lobby of trump tower? >> we have the answer, lawrence, but we're not going to disclose it tonight. let me say this, i tweeted this out moments ago. i think when the truth relating to this meeting comes out shortly, it's going to redefine the word ugly. when the truth comes out relating to what michael cohen was doing there that day in connection with these two individuals in this elevator at trump tower, we know that michael flynn was also there that day. and, you know, lawrence the problem is is that michael cohen was not a registered lobby yes, i am, not a registered foreign agent he had no formal role in connection with the transition, ultimately no formal role in the administration. i don't think he's taking these guys upstairs to pick up to-go dinners or anything of that nature. they had to be there for something. i think it's going to come out shortly as to why they were there, and i don't think it's going to be pretty. >> you mentioned an american lawsuit in which al-rumaihi is quoted about in effect bribing politicians in washington. is it through that lawsuit you expect the information to come out? >> i don't want to get into how i expect it to come out. but there is a declaration in that lawsuit that's bullet proof that details the statements of this individual relating to the fact he had successfully prescribed administration officials, namely michael flynn. and i don't think it ends there. we have a video and photographic evidence that shows that michael cohen was at the center of this. we know from what we released last week, to your point that's been confirmed, that michael cohen was selling access to the president of the united states. and let me also say, lawrence, i think the suggestion that all of this was going on with involvement by michael cohen, involvement by michael flynn and at the same time the president knew absolutely nothing about it is absurd. >> we all remember those days during the transition and trump tower and there were cameras set up all day and people moving in and out of there, sometimes dozens of people, including the like gs of kanye west, james comey had his day in the lobby. all sorts of people had their day there. is it possible that michael cohen is on that elevator at that time with al rumahi. >> no because if you look at the video, he walks in with them, it's clear as day he walks in with them and gets on the elevator with them. i don't think it's happenstance by any stretch of the imagination. >> john heil man, once again the guy beside you has expanded the dimensions of what we are aware of -- i was going to say what we know, but i'm not sure what we know as a result of the images. michael avenatti's promises in the past that there is more to come have generally proven to be the case. >> let me tell you about the story, it's going to take us into the weeds a little bit here, but it's interesting, i think. you may have red in the last couple weeks about a lawsuit that was filed by -- the lawsuit that mr. avenatti is referring to which is a lawsuit filed by two individuals, that run a lead called the big three, an old timers baseball league. they had some qatari investors, there have been various disputes between the league, those two guys, and the qataris, it's in the source of this lawsuit that the statements have been made -- someone who i have made since high school -- >> the world is not that small. the guy i was reading about in this lawsuit today you went to high school with? >> no. someone i knew in high school. i went to western university, who i lived with for two years at harvard, and continues to be someone i know extraordinarily well. he declares in the lawsuit that the reason that the qataris invested in big three is because jeff was a good friend of steve bannon and the qatari's were trying to use their investment in the league to get access to bannon and through bannon influence trump. it's a sworn declaration in this case where he says in his discussions with the qataris and mr. rumaihi he claims to have bribed michael flynn. he says this is a terrible idea, i don't want to be involved with this. he says, what are you talking about? michael flynn took our money. so what mr. avenatti has done here is connected a dot because this lawsuit and the allegations that the qataris, they claimed according to this they had bribed michael flynn, now we have michael flynn, michael cohen and the person who is said to have prescribed flynn in the elevator together. i don't know what the connection between michael cohen -- i know nothing about the cohen connection to this, if there is any cohen connection, over than the fact they rode in an elevator together. but the attempts to engage in what seems like an influence operation through this very strange medium, an old-timers basketball league, which a strange story. it involves a rapper like ice cube. one of the things michael avenatti has done is bring various threads together and create a garment, we don't know the shape of the garment, or i don't, but the garment is more visible. >> joyce vance, sernl certainly the special prosecutor is aware of this sworn statement in the lawsuit and the way -- what rumaihi is quoted as saying basically, is do you think mike flynn didn't take our money? that's the kind of statement made in a lawsuit like that that would attract the special prosecutor's attention. >> it would attract a lot of attention if they had not known about it before the statement was filed in connection with the lawsuit. we're seeing a lot of indication, though, that mueller was looking at a lot of different threads in this investigation back late last year that we're only just now learning that he was looking at back in that time period. so one rather suspects that he would have been onto this well before it became public knowledge as has been the case over and over again in this investigation and that's really what you would expect. you would expect prosecutors to know much more and be much further down the path than the public is aware they've been able to travel. >> joyce, let me ask you another legal question about what we heard michael cohen quoted as saying when he was approaching these companies to represent them. at a certain point on saying to them, you need me. you need to hire me. does that begin to edge up toward something that sounds threatening? >> lawrence, i think this is the real question in the cohen investigation. was he just a huxter was he self-promoting and trying to hustle business or really selling access to the president of the united states? that will likely have been the focus for mueller and his team trying to determine whether cohen was freelancing or whether he was actually selling access to the president. and there's an interesting little bit of circumstance swirling around this. if you set yourself up in a pay to play situation, you have to play me if you want to play with this administration, there has to be a threat that you can really carry out. so here we have a tweet that the president was tweeting out about american companies and there were financial repercussions for the companies when those tweets happened. it will be interesting to see how this all compares as cohen goes out and bids with people, tries to get them to hire him, was there twitter activity in any of these industries, did any of these companies believe from other circumstances that they really did have to hire cohen if they wanted to get contracts, get favorable treatment, have access, that will be what this investigation will be looking at. it's not unforseen, not unpredictable that will happen. that is the bread and butter of prosecutors doing corruption cases. >> there's another side of this legal coin. one side is you need to hire me in order to get benefits. the other side, which is the old mafia version of it, you need to hire me to prevent this president from doing serious damage to you. i will get this president not to do damage to you. >> i don't know this for a fact but based on the way i know michael cohen and the way he's conducted himself, there's little down in my mind probably both messages were delivered. let me say this, i seriously doubt at the end of this, there's going to be any doubt as to whether mr. trump knew what was going on here. because otherwise, michael cohen would have had to string these clients along, month in, month out, relating to what he was telling the president, communications with the president, at some point these clients that retained him had to ask him, did you run it by the president? what did the president say? when do we get to meet the president? when do we have lunch with the president? what's the president's position? that had to occur at some point in this process. unless michael cohen is lying to the clients paying him all this money, the president had to know that michael cohen was carrying the water for some of these folks. >> john, the chances of michael cohen lying to the clients also seem to have a high possibility, one of the "the washington journal" reports talk how unhappy michael cohen was about his lack of relationship with the president when donald trump was in the white house. >> one of the fundamental realties of michael cohen is if you go back to the period when candidate trump was thinking of running for president, in the earlier cycle, michael cohen was with him constantly, and there was no one that covered trump as i did who didn't expect michael cohen would be his campaign manager if he ran in 2012. when you got to 2016 he wasn't in the campaign, and donald trump didn't want to take him to washington. so some distance had happened. and one wonders whether he was making je jit mat statements. >> a quick question on timetable, when will we find out what happened on december 12, 2016, at trump tower? >> i think soon. >> soon is a week? soon is a month? >> soon is soon. >> soon is soon. michael avenatti soon is soon. i think that's on your business card. >> maybe on the other side of this break. >> maybe. michael avenatti, joyce vance thank you for your legal perspective. john hileman is going to stay with us. the disgrace of john kelly continues and deepens as president trump proves that john mccain was right in banning the president from his funeral. and later, what is mike pence up to? that's the question some trump staffers are asking each other. what? directv gives you more for your thing. your... quitting cable and never looking back thing. directv is rated #1 in customer satisfaction over cable. switch to directv and now get a $100 reward card. more for your thing. that's our thing. call 1.800 directv. and help you feel more strength & energy in just 2 weeks. i'll take that. ensure high protein, with 16 grams of protein and 4 grams of sugar. ensure® let your inner light loose with one a day women's. with 16 grams of protein and 4 grams of sugar. ♪ a complete multivitamin specially formulated with key nutrients plus vitamin d for bone health support. your one a day is showing. mr. elliot, what's your wiwifi?ssword? 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[ child offscreen ] hey! let's basement. and thanks to these xfi pods, the signal reaches down here, too. so sophie, i have an xfi password, and it's "daditude". simple. easy. awesome. xfinity. the future of awesome. john kelly continues to find new depths of disgrace in his role as white house chief of staff. his vicious comments last week about immigrant families ripped apart by the trump government with children thrown into, quote, foster care or whatever, actually reflect john kelly's own thinking. that is something kelly would happily on pine about in the boston bar in the neighborhood he grew up. that cruelty comes straight from john kelly's own heart. that cruelty is not something he learned in the trump white house. the immigrant in his own ancestry who came here not speaking english fit perfectly john kelly's description of people who should not be allowed in this country. so he disgraced his own ancestors with those comments but he sounds like he means it when he says it. at the same time it is just impossible to imagine that john kelly shares white house staff er-kelly sadler's disdain for john mccain, when she said last week, quote, it doesn't matter he's dieing anyway. it's impossible to believe that john kelly does not respect john mccain, the decorated former prisoner of war in vietnam who comes from a family richer in military tradition than john kelly's own family. so john kelly's silence about kelly sadler's comments has to be the product of john kelly's own cowardly fear of the wrath of donald trump. any other white house chief of staff would have fired kelly sadlerimmediately upon learning of her comment. any chief of staff with -- any staffer would have quit when her comment became public. but not kelly sadler. she promised the senator's daughter last week that she would apologize publically and she has not done it. so it is very clear who is managing the white house response to the kelly sadlercomments about john mccain. here's the white house press briefing today. >> why not just apologize so america doesn't think that is an acceptable way of speaking inside this white house? >> i understand the focus on the issue but it's going to be dealt with, and has been dealt with internally. >> can you explain how it's been addressed internally. >> if i explain all that, it won't remain internal. >> i can explain it, you can explain it. anyone who's been watching donald trump can explain it. donald trump is obviously personally managing this controversy in the white house and he is forbidding kelly sadler from publically apologizing to john mccain and he is forbidding john kelly from firing kelly sadler and forbidding john kelly from standing with the american hero john mccain and publically condemning kelly sadler's comment. there will be leaks. we may have to wait for another michael wolff book but there will be leaks on how john kelly handled himself in the white house when the day came to stand silently with kelly sadler or stand honorably with john mccain. the white house conducted a meeting about the leak of what kelly sadler had to say and ax owe reports a visibly upset and furious press secretary sarah sanders told the group, i am sure this conversation is going to leek, too, and that's just disgusting. and, of course, i can read you that quote of what the white house press secretary said in that meeting because it was leaked by one or more of those people who donald trump calls traitors and cowards. joining our discussion now, john kline, a former chief of staff. and back with us is john hileman. john kline you have lived and worked in a white house. and all white houses are concerned about leaks but we have never seen anything like that. >> no. leaks are part of washington, and they happen in all administrations but this one is the worst. the problem is this, if the president wants to stop leaks of horrible, embarrassing information of his administration he ought to stop doing horrible and embarrassing things. the problem isn't that the stuff is leaking out, the fundamental problem is this stuff is having. and a member of the stay to say what kelly sadler said about john mccain, the issue isn't that it leaked, it's that she said it. >> by now it's fair to infer that president trump thinks about john mccain exactly the way kelly sadler does. >> we could have inferred that before given the history with john mccain. she said a horrible thing. everybody we know has said something notty, nasty, or disrespectful about somebody at some point and regretted it. if you just come out and apologize, everyone will understand that you could have said something obnoxious. she apologized privately to the mccain family, having apologized privately why won't she publically apologize. it has to go with donald trump. all it would have taken is 30 seconds for the woman to say, and the white house to stand by her and say i said something terrible. i'm sorry for that. and it will all be over. that then would raise the question, wait, your boss said that he started trashing john mccain when he first got in the race and isn't what you're saying consistent -- a worse investigation but a consistent version of what president trump thinks of john mccain and you have a different issue of troubles. >> different jobs have different standards of public conducts and different reactions when private conduct becomes public. there's no stricter standard that i'm aware of than the white house said. her defense is, it was a joke. that's her defense. that can work as a defense in comedy writing rooms, in hollywood, it can work in many settings, in many work places. what do you think any other white house, their reaction would be to a comment like this being made public? >> i agree with john hileman, everyone says things they regret in politics and public life. the key thing is to own up to them and apologies both privately and publically. i have doubts this was a joke, though. as john mentioned donald trump has said the most horrible things about john mccain, not just in this campaign but back to 2000 when donald trump started on this that john mccain wasn't a hero because he was captured during the vietnam war, the man who avoided service to his country during that war. i think the problem is a lack of respect for senator mccain. i disagree with john mccain on a lot of issues, but i don't see how anyone cannot respect the man, the hero he is, his service to our country and that lack of respect is evident in the white house. the last thing i'll say is john mccain has a lot of friends on capitol hill and in the u.s. senate in particular. and this attitude from the trump white house is going to cost them up on capitol hill if they want to try and get anything else done up there in the foreseeable future. >> john kelly said i remember when women were held sacred. apparently he does not remember when prisoners of war were sacred. >> you would think if john kelly had control over this white house and again, he's a military man, he must, on some level -- he must respect john mccain's sacrifice, respect john mccain, so he must either feel as though he's given up on trying to contain some of the excess in the white house or he feels cowed by president trump who he's afraid if he were to order the person who committed this sin to atone that somehow he would face the wrath of the president for allowing anybody in the white house to apologize for anything. so either one, either he's given up sor he's afraid of donald trump, neither is a good look. >> your reaction to the former marine general, working in the white house, being absolutely silent on this comment about john mccain. >> it's sad. there's no other way to describe it. john kelly had great service to the country, paid the highest sacrifice in the loss of his son, and a dedicated military man and someone with that kind of record not to have the authority or the will or whatever he's been deprived to say to kelly sadler, you march out there and apologize to senator mccain and his family is an unwinding of his moral authority, the authority you should have as white house chief of staff that donald trump has done that to him is a horrible thing and that john kelly has accepted it is an equally horrible thing. it's a disgrace to see. >> john kelly will continue to go to work tomorrow and work side by side with kelly sadler. coming up, some members of team trump are getting very worried about team pence. paying too much for insurance you don't even understand? 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enter mike pence, the "new york times" reports republican officials now see mr. pence as seeking to exercise expansive control over a political party ostense shl helped by mr. trump tending to his own allies and interests even when the president's instincts lean other wise. mike pence knows that he is going to be running for president in 2024, either to follow the trump presidency or to unseat the democrat who will have defeated donald trump. and mike pence knows that unlike donald trump he cannot win on personality alone. according to the times while mr. trump remains an major powering personality, he is mostly uninterested in the mechanics of managing a political party. his team of advisers is richb with personal divisions and the white house has not yet crafted a strategy for the midterms. so mr. trump's running mate has stepped into the void. today the pence team tried to counter any suspicions of disunity by donald trump's first campaign manager, corey lewandowski is joining the effort as an adviser to the pence political action committee. joining us now jonathan allen a recorder for nbc news digital. and john hileman is still with us. jonathan allen you've been reporting what's going on in the pence camp and the worries the trump camp has. what's the situation tonight? >> as you noted in the intro, mike pence has emerged as a political force on his own. he has a web of groups, including this super pac that corey lewandowski has signed on to, one's a political action community, the other is a nonprofit, a charity, that he's using to go around the republicans to help republicans and also himself. a lot of the folks in trump world were not pleased with that. one source told me that the president asked corey lewandowski to go kind of keep an eye on -- to keep an eye on pence world. and another source i talked to about this, you know, basically said trump and pence are generally aligned, they get along personally, but this is trump making sure it's clear to everyone who's still boss. >> and politico is reporting on another set of friction, which is john mccain has decided he doesn't want donald trump at his funeral but he does want the vice president. so what does the vice president do? does he attend? if he does attend, does that irritate president trump? >> hard to imagine it won't irritate president trump. but in the end i think president trump will be happy to outsource that particular activity, that particular duty to pence because i think trump would not want to go to the funeral. you know how trump is, trump will be -- trump is focussed on slates and i'm sure it has annoyed him to have heard that he's not welcome at the funeral. it's also the case of trump being as narcissistic as he is, he would rather be playing golf that day. so he will console himself with the notion, i didn't want to go to that thing anyhow. >> this story coincides with the leaks and the president calling his own staff traitors for leaking and part of the concerns about leaking is what's going on with the pence operation and what might they be leaking? >> the irony of donald trump calling people cowards and traitors for leaking is pretty strong. this is a guy who's been talking to the press for the last 30 years, sometimes under his own name, sometimes john baron or what have you. it appears from the reporting, everyone in trump world leaks. at some level i think the pence operation has been a little more tightly held and there are a bunch of pence people marbled throughout the white house. it's not just nick ayers, you have mark short, his experience on capitol hill was as mike pence's staff director when he was the chairman of the republican study committee and the republican conference in the house. so these pence guys know how to play the game in washington pretty well in a way i think a lot of the other trump folks may not be as adept at. so as a result i think their leaks are a little more strategic. >> john, one of the white house leakers in chief, kellyanne conway, was on fox news earlier tonight and actually saying that she actually expects there to be some firings -- personnel changes as they put it, as a result of the leaking investigations that they're trying to run now. >> i would bet a reasonable amount of money that is an empty threat. it's one of those things where you're asked -- people know you're conducting leak investigations, what will be the consequences of these leak investigations, ms. conway? nothing. you can't say that. so you have to say there are going to be changes we're going to do something. i will say about mike pence this. if you think about the various things he's doing and the aggressiveness he's doing it, it does reflect his understanding he's playing a weak hand on some level. he's not the natural inheriter to donald trump's base or anybody's base at this point, he's looking at a situation where either donald trump is going to survive this first term, run for reelection or not, and either win or not. then he's looking at running in 2024. that's a long way down the road and the party is going to be radically different at the end of either one of those outcomes or trump is not going to finish out the first time, in which case pence will not be the inheriter, he'll be challenged by 25 republicans. many of them more beloved. so he has to do everything he's doing right now to put himself in a reasonable position to thrive let alone rise. >> on that, the most dramatic scenario we've considered, we have to take a break. thank you both for joining us, appreciate it. coming up, president trump did keep a campaign promise today. if you have a garden, you know... weeds are low-down little scoundrels. draw the line with roundup. the sure shot wand extends with a protective shield and target weeds more precisely, right down to the root. roundup. trusted for over 40 years. which is breast cancer metastatthat has spreadr, to other parts of her body. she's also taking prescription ibrance with an aromatase inhibitor, which is for postmenopausal women with hormone receptor-positive her2- metastatic breast cancer as the first hormonal based therapy. ibrance plus letrozole was significantly more effective at delaying disease progression versus letrozole. patients taking ibrance can develop low white blood cell counts, which may cause serious infections that can lead to death. before taking ibrance, tell your doctor if you have fever, chills, or other signs of infection, liver or kidney problems, are pregnant, breastfeeding, or plan to become pregnant. common side effects include low red blood cell and low platelet counts, infections, tiredness, nausea, sore mouth, abnormalities in liver blood tests, diarrhea, hair thinning or loss, vomiting, rash, and loss of appetite. alice calls it her new normal because a lot has changed, but a lot hasn't. ask your doctor about ibrance. the #1 prescribed fda-approved oral combination treatment for hr+/her2- mbc. 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[ applause ] >> joining us now, nicholas kristof, pulitzer prize winning columnist for "the new york times." nick, you have been to israel and gaza many times. your reaction to today's events? >> i think first of all it's just kind of horrifying to watch a celebration at this new u.s. embassy at a time when 1,300 people are being shot 40 miles away in gaza. and i guess also it just strikes me that this is so unnecessary that -- and, you know, for 70 years the u.s. has aspired, not always succeeded, not always effectively, but we have aspired to be a good faith intermediary between israel and the palestinians. and by moving the embassy in this way and by today having the white house say -- not even call for restraint on israel a part just signals that we are no longer intermediaries. we're completely on the side of israel on this. and i guess i think also, you know, we're very much focused on gazans responding to the move of the american embassy, but let's also acknowledge that they are responding to a misery that has been created by a dozen years of an economic blockade that has systematically robbed people of economic opportunities, robbed people of hope, undermined the middle class, and obviously there are very genuine security issues that israel has to deal with and any country has to protect its border. but one would also like to see a little bit of restraint, a little bit of greater attempt to avoid unnecessary casualties. and, you know, instead what we've seen is journalists with press marketed on them being shot. my colleague, declan walsh, was at the border and saw a woman nearby, a 26-year-old woman who had a mental disability shot in the stomach, and i just find it kind of heartbreaking that at the moment this is going on, we are celebrating the opening of the embassy and not even calling for restraint. >> john brennan said today, deaths in gaza, result of utter disregard of trump and netanyahu for palestinian rights and homeland. by moving embassy to jerusalem, trump play politics, destroyed u.s. peace maker role, new generation of israelis, palestinians, need to isolate extremists to find path to peace. that last hopeful sentence seems like a distant dream. >> remember the trump administration talking about how it was going to bring peace. and instead what it has brought is a despair and hopelessness and undermined the leadership in these areas. and, look, you know, when the white house criticizes hamas, absolutely. hamas has been repressive. it has been an awful administrator of gaza. there's tremendous resentment against it. but we aren't responsible for hamas. we are arming israel. we're providing israel with aid. and when our ally then goes and shoots 1,300 people in one day, i mean this is like a war what was going on today. and then we don't even call for restraint. i -- and when we're celebrating, it just seems to tonally just repulsive and repugnant to me. >> nicholas kristof, who has real experience in the region, thank you very much for joining us tonight. tonight's last word is next. as a control enthusiast, i'm all-business when i travel... even when i travel... for leisure. so i go national, where i can choose any available upgrade in the aisle - without starting any conversations- -or paying any upcharges. what can i say? 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"the 11th hour" on a monday night begins now. another monday, and good evening once again from our nbc news headquarters here in new york.

Transcripts For MSNBCW The Last Word With Lawrence ODonnell 20180515

lawrence. >> tonight the president of the united states has said something that would command agreement to the resistance of the president of the united states. donald trump's most unforgiving critics agree with the spirit of the statement the president gave today even if they might choose different words. as with most trump statements, it need not be said that no president in history said anything like that. today donald trump actually said his white house staff, quote, are traitors and cowards. for any white house staffers for whom working for donald trump wasn't shameful enough today, they can now add to their shame that even donald trump thinks they are traitors and cowards in a tweet this afternoon, the president said the so-called leaks coming out of the white house are a massive overexaggeration put out by the fake news media in order to make us look as bad as possible. with that being said, leakers are traitors and cowards, and we will find out who they are! so the leaks from the trump white house are fake but donald trump thinks that leakers, white house leakers are traitors and cowards and he's trying to find out who they are. and while he is busy trying to find out who they are, 22 of those traitors and cowards teamed up to supply "the washington post" with its latest story based entirely on leaks the president is trying to stop. about a day in the life of the president under investigation. the president vents to associates about the fbi raids on his personal attorney michael cohen, as often as 20 times a day in the estimation of one confidant. and they frequently listen in silence, knowing little they say will soothe him. trump gripes that he needs better tv lawyers to defend him on cable news. he plots his battle plans with former new york mayor rudolph q. giuliani, his new legal consigliere. 20 times a day. the white house staff who the president now calls traitors and cowards also told "the washington post" quote they privately express worries that the probe may yet ensnare more figures in trump's orbit, including family members. there is worry about trump's eldest son and son-in-law and. last night john hileman delivered the moment last week when stormy daniels' lawyer, michael avenatti dramatically changed our understanding of what michael cohen was up to in trump world before the fbi raided his home, his office and his hotel room. >> you got a tweet written? >> two tweets. >> two tweets. >> this is the first tweet. after significant investigation, we have discovered that mr. trump's attorney, mr. cohen received approximately $500,000 from a company controlled by a russian oligarch with close ties to mr. putin, these moneys may have reimbursed the $130,000 payment. >> that's a big deal. give me the second tweet. >> mr. trump and mr. cohen have a lot of explaining to do. it was just sent. >> it was just sent. >> there it is. >> john hileman and michael avenatti will join us in a moment. michael avenatti's revelations about millions of dollars received by michael cohen for questionable consulting was all confirmed and then some by follow-up reports in newspapers, only that michael avenatti had understated the total amounts paid by some of those cooperations. today's wall street journal, he would tell prospective clients large corporations worried about their lack of connections to president donald trump's administration, that he didn't know who he was advising them but should fire them all. i have the best relationship with the president on the outside, and you need to hire me. mr. cohen told them, according to this person. michael cohen traded on his labelling of himself as the president's lawyer and leaned all the more heavily on companies that did not want to do business with him. mr. cohen repeatedly pitched uber, which said no, citing mr. cohen's ownership of new york taxi medallions as a potential conflict of interest with the ride hailing firm a person close to the company said. he modified his pitch in response to those objections, reminding the company he was the president's lawyer, this person said. michael avenatti has once again expanded the dimensions of the michael cohen story by tweeting yesterday video images captured in the lobby of trump tower during the transition on december 12, 2016. those images show michael cohen close to a bald man who appears to be amid rumahi and another shot that some -- that same day of michael cohen in the lobby of trump tower with michael flynn. in a follow-up tweet michael avenatti said, why was amed al-rumaihi meeting with michael cohen and michael flynn in december of 2016 and why did mr. al-rumaihi later brag about bribing administration officials according to a sworn declaration filed in court? joining us now with what we hope is the answer to his own question, michael avenatti the attorney for stormy daniels. also with us john heilman, national affairs analyst for nbc and msnbc, and joyce vance is with us, former federal prosecutor, a professor at the university of alabama school of law and an msnbc contributor. michael avenatti so do you have the answer to your question about what michael cohen was up to there in the lobby of trump tower? >> we have the answer, lawrence, but we're not going to disclose it tonight. let me say this, i tweeted this out moments ago. i think when the truth relating to this meeting comes out shortly, it's going to redefine the word ugly. when the truth comes out relating to what michael cohen was doing there that day in connection with these two individuals in this elevator at trump tower, we know that michael flynn was also there that day. and, you know, lawrence the problem is is that michael cohen was not a registered lobby yes, i am, not a registered foreign agent he had no formal role in connection with the transition, ultimately no formal role in the administration. i don't think he's taking these guys upstairs to pick up to-go dinners or anything of that nature. they had to be there for something. i think it's going to come out shortly as to why they were there, and i don't think it's going to be pretty. >> you mentioned an american lawsuit in which al-rumaihi is quoted about in effect bribing politicians in washington. is it through that lawsuit you expect the information to come out? >> i don't want to get into how i expect it to come out. but there is a declaration in that lawsuit that's bullet proof that details the statements of this individual relating to the fact he had successfully prescribed administration officials, namely michael flynn. and i don't think it ends there. we have a video and photographic evidence that shows that michael cohen was at the center of this. we know from what we released last week, to your point that's been confirmed, that michael cohen was selling access to the president of the united states. and let me also say, lawrence, i think the suggestion that all of this was going on with involvement by michael cohen, involvement by michael flynn and at the same time the president knew absolutely nothing about it is absurd. >> we all remember those days during the transition and trump tower and there were cameras set up all day and people moving in and out of there, sometimes dozens of people, including the like gs of kanye west, james comey had his day in the lobby. all sorts of people had their day there. is it possible that michael cohen is on that elevator at that time with al rumahi. >> no because if you look at the video, he walks in with them, it's clear as day he walks in with them and gets on the elevator with them. i don't think it's happenstance by any stretch of the imagination. >> john heil man, once again the guy beside you has expanded the dimensions of what we are aware of -- i was going to say what we know, but i'm not sure what we know as a result of the images. michael avenatti's promises in the past that there is more to come have generally proven to be the case. >> let me tell you about the story, it's going to take us into the weeds a little bit here, but it's interesting, i think. you may have red in the last couple weeks about a lawsuit that was filed by -- the lawsuit that mr. avenatti is referring to which is a lawsuit filed by two individuals, that run a lead called the big three, an old timers baseball league. they had some qatari investors, there have been various disputes between the league, those two guys, and the qataris, it's in the source of this lawsuit that the statements have been made -- someone who i have made since high school -- >> the world is not that small. the guy i was reading about in this lawsuit today you went to high school with? >> no. someone i knew in high school. i went to western university, who i lived with for two years at harvard, and continues to be someone i know extraordinarily well. he declares in the lawsuit that the reason that the qataris invested in big three is because jeff was a good friend of steve bannon and the qatari's were trying to use their investment in the league to get access to bannon and through bannon influence trump. it's a sworn declaration in this case where he says in his discussions with the qataris and mr. rumaihi he claims to have bribed michael flynn. he says this is a terrible idea, i don't want to be involved with this. he says, what are you talking about? michael flynn took our money. so what mr. avenatti has done here is connected a dot because this lawsuit and the allegations that the qataris, they claimed according to this they had bribed michael flynn, now we have michael flynn, michael cohen and the person who is said to have prescribed flynn in the elevator together. i don't know what the connection between michael cohen -- i know nothing about the cohen connection to this, if there is any cohen connection, over than the fact they rode in an elevator together. but the attempts to engage in what seems like an influence operation through this very strange medium, an old-timers basketball league, which a strange story. it involves a rapper like ice cube. one of the things michael avenatti has done is bring various threads together and create a garment, we don't know the shape of the garment, or i don't, but the garment is more visible. >> joyce vance, sernl certainly the special prosecutor is aware of this sworn statement in the lawsuit and the way -- what rumaihi is quoted as saying basically, is do you think mike flynn didn't take our money? that's the kind of statement made in a lawsuit like that that would attract the special prosecutor's attention. >> it would attract a lot of attention if they had not known about it before the statement was filed in connection with the lawsuit. we're seeing a lot of indication, though, that mueller was looking at a lot of different threads in this investigation back late last year that we're only just now learning that he was looking at back in that time period. so one rather suspects that he would have been onto this well before it became public knowledge as has been the case over and over again in this investigation and that's really what you would expect. you would expect prosecutors to know much more and be much further down the path than the public is aware they've been able to travel. >> joyce, let me ask you another legal question about what we heard michael cohen quoted as saying when he was approaching these companies to represent them. at a certain point on saying to them, you need me. you need to hire me. does that begin to edge up toward something that sounds threatening? >> lawrence, i think this is the real question in the cohen investigation. was he just a huxter was he self-promoting and trying to hustle business or really selling access to the president of the united states? that will likely have been the focus for mueller and his team trying to determine whether cohen was freelancing or whether he was actually selling access to the president. and there's an interesting little bit of scircumstance swirling around this. if you set yourself up in a pay to play situation, you have to play me if you want to play with this administration, there has to be a threat that you can really carry out. so here we have a tweet that the president was tweeting out about american companies and there were financial repercussions for the companies when those tweets happened. it will be interesting to see how this all compares as cohen goes out and bids with people, tries to get them to hire him, was there twitter activity in any of these industries, did any of these companies believe from other circumstances that they really did have to hire cohen if they wanted to get contracts, get favorable treatment, have access, that will be what this investigation will be looking at. it's not unforseen, not unpredictable that will happen. that is the bread and butter of prosecutors doing corruption cases. >> there's another side of this legal coin. one side is you need to hire me in order to get benefits. the other side, which is the old mafia version of it, you need to hire me to prevent this president from doing serious damage to you. i will get this president not to do damage to you. >> i don't know this for a fact but based on the way i know michael cohen and the way he's conducted himself, there's little down in my mind probably both messages were delivered. let me say this, i seriously doubt at the end of this, there's going to be any doubt as to whether mr. trump knew what was going on here. because otherwise, michael cohen would have had to string these clients along, month in, month out, relating to what he was telling the president, communications with the president, at some point these clients that retained him had to ask him, did you run it by the president? what did the president say? when do we get to meet the president? when do we have lunch with the president? what's the president's position? that had to occur at some point in this process. unless michael cohen is lying to the clients paying him all this money, the president had to know that michael cohen was carrying the water for some of these folks. >> john, the chances of michael cohen lying to the clients also seem to have a high possibility, one of the "the washington journal" reports talk how unhappy michael cohen was about his lack of relationship with the president when donald trump was in the white house. >> one of the fundamental realties of michael cohen is if you go back to the period when candidate trump was thinking of running for president, in the earlier cycle, michael cohen was with him constantly, and there was no one that covered trump as i did who didn't expect michael cohen would be his campaign manager if he ran in 2012. when you got to 2016 he wasn't in the campaign, and donald trump didn't want to take him to washington. so some distance had happened. and one wonders whether he was making je jit mat statements. >> a quick question on timetable, when will we find out what happened on december 12, 2016, at trump tower? >> i think soon. >> soon is a week? soon is a month? >> soon is soon. >> soon is soon. michael avenatti soon is soon. i think that's on your business card. >> maybe on the other side of this break. >> maybe. michael avenatti, joyce vance thank you for your legal perspective. john hileman is going to stay with us. the disgrace of john kelly continues and deepens as president trump proves that john mccain was right in banning the president from his funeral. and later, what is mike pence up to? that's the question some trump staffers are asking each other. greatness of an suv? is it to carry cargo... or to carry on a legacy? its show of strength... or its sign of intelligence? in crossing harsh terrain... or breaking new ground? this is the mercedes-benz suv family. greatness comes in many forms. lease the glc300 for just $449 a month at your local mercedes-benz dealer. mercedes-benz. the best or nothing. ...to give you the protein you need with less of the sugar you don't. i'll take that. [cheers] 30 grams of protein and 1 gram of sugar. new ensure max protein. in two great flavors. with dell small businessout your technology advisors you get the one-on-one partnership you need to grow your business. the dell vostro 15 laptop. contact a dell advisor today. paywell, esurance makes itnce you dsimple and affordable. in fact, drivers who switched from geico to esurance saved an average of $412. that's auto and home insurance for the modern world. esurance, an allstate company. click or call. paying too much for insurance that isn't the right fit? well, esurance makes finding the right coverage easy. in fact, drivers who switched from geico to esurance saved an average of $412. that's auto and home insurance for the modern world. esurance, an allstate company. click or call. john kelly continues to find new depths of disgrace in his role as white house chief of staff. his vicious comments last week about immigrant families ripped apart by the trump government with children thrown into, quote, foster care or whatever, actually reflect john kelly's own thinking. that is something kelly would happily on pine about in the boston bar in the neighborhood he grew up. that cruelty comes straight from john kelly's own heart. that cruelty is not something he learned in the trump white house. the immigrant in his own ancestry who came here not speaking english fit perfectly john kelly's description of people who should not be allowed in this country. so he disgraced his own ancestors with those comments but he sounds like he means it when he says it. at the same time it is just impossible to imagine that john kelly shares white house staff er-kelly sadler's disdain for john mccain, when she said last week, quote, it doesn't matter he's dieing anyway. it's impossible to believe that john kelly does not respect john mccain, the decorated former prisoner of war in vietnam who comes from a family richer in military tradition than john kelly's own family. so john kelly's silence about kelly sadler's comments has to be the product of john kelly's own cowardly fear of the wrath of donald trump. any other white house chief of staff would have fired kelly sadlerimmedia sadl sadlerimmediately upon learning of her comment. any chief of staff with du-- an staffer would have quit when her comment became public. but not kelly sadler. she promised the senator's daughter last week that she would apologize publically and she has not done it. so it is very clear who is managing the white house response to the kelly sadlercomments about john mccain. here's the white house press briefing today. >> why not just apologize so america doesn't think that is an acceptable way of speaking inside this white house? >> i understand the focus on the issue but it's going to be dealt with, and has been dealt with internally. >> can you explain how it's been addressed internally. >> if i explain all that, it won't remain internal. >> i can explain it, you can explain it. anyone who's been watching donald trump can explain it. donald trump is obviously personally managing this controversy in the white house and he is forbidding kelly sadler from publically apologizing to john mccain and he is forbidding john kelly from firing kelly sadler and forb forbidding john kelly from standing with the american hero john mccain and publically condemning kelly sadler's comment. there will be leaks. we may have to wait for another michael wolff book but there will be leaks on how john kelly handled himself in the white house when the day came to stand silently with kelly sadler or stand honorably with john mccain. the white house conducted a meeting about the leak of what kelly sadler had to say and ax owe reports a visibly upset and furious press secretary sarah sanders told the group, i am sure this conversation is going to leek, too, and that's just disgusting. and, of course, i can read you that quote of what the white house press secretary said in that meeting because it was leaked by one or more of those people who donald trump calls traitors and cowards. joining our discussion now, john kline, a former chief of staff. and back with us is john hileman. john kline you have lived and worked in a white house. and all white houses are concerned about leaks but we have never seen anything like that. >> no. leaks are part of washington, and they happen in all administrations but this one is the worst. the problem is this, if the president wants to stop leaks of horrible, embarrassing information of his administration he ought to stop doing horrible and embarrassing things. the problem isn't that the stuff is leaking out, the fundamental problem is this stuff is having. and a member of the stay to say what kelly sadler said about john mccain, the issue isn't that it leaked, it's that she said it. >> by now it's fair to infer that president trump thinks about john mccain exactly the way kelly sadler does. >> we could have inferred that before given the history with john mccain. she said a horrible thing. everybody we know has said something notty, nasty, or disrespectful about somebody at some point and regretted it. if you just come out and apologize, everyone will understand that you could have said something obnoxious. she apologized privately to the mccain family, having apologized privately why won't she publically apologize. it has to go with donald trump. all it would have taken is 30 seconds for the woman to say, and the white house to stand by her and say i said something terrible. i'm sorry for that. and it will all be over. that then would raise the question, wait, your boss said that he started trashing john mccain when he first got in the race and isn't what you're saying consistent -- a worse investigation but a consistent version of what president trump thinks of john mccain and you have a different issue of troubles. >> different jobs have different standards of public conducts and different reactions when private conduct becomes public. there's no stricter standard that i'm aware of than the white house said. her defense is, it was a joke. that's her defense. that can work as a defense in comedy writing rooms, in hollywood, it can work in many settings, in many work places. what do you think any other white house, their reaction would be to a comment like this being made public? >> i agree with john hileman, everyone says things they regret in politics and public life. the key thing is to own up to them and apologies both privately and publically. i have doubts this was a joke, though. as john mentioned donald trump has said the most horrible things about john mccain, not just in this campaign but back to 2000 when donald trump started on this that john mccain wasn't a hero because he was captured during the vietnam war, the man who avoided service to his country during that war. i think the problem is a lack of respect for senator mccain. i disagree with john mccain on a lot of issues, but i don't see how anyone cannot respect the man, the hero he is, his service to our country and that lack of respect is evident in the white house. the last thing i'll say is john mccain has a lot of friends on capitol hill and in the u.s. senate in particular. and this attitude from the trump white house is going to cost them up on capitol hill if they want to try and get anything else done up there in the foreseeable future. >> john kelly said i remember when women were held sacred. apparently he does not remember when prisoners of war were sacr sacred. >> you would think if john kelly had control over this white house and again, he's a military man, he must, on some level -- he must respect john mccain's sacrifice, respect john mccain, so he must either feel as though he's given up on trying to contain some of the excess in the white house or he feels cowed by president trump who he's afraid if he were to order the person who committed this sin to atone that somehow he would face the wrath of the president for allowing anybody in the white house to apologize for anything. so either one, either he's given up sor he's afraid of donald trump, neither is a good look. >> your reaction to the former marine general, working in the white house, being absolutely silent on this comment about john mccain. >> it's sad. there's no other way to describe it. john kelly had great service to the country, paid the highest sacrifice in the loss of his son, and a dedicated military man and someone with that kind of record not to have the authority or the will or whatever he's been deprived to say to kelly sadler, you march out there and apologize to senator mccain and his family is an unwinding of his moral authority, the authority you should have as white house chief of staff that donald trump has done that to him is a horrible thing and that john kelly has accepted it is an equally horrible thing. it's a disgrace to see. >> john kelly will continue to go to work tomorrow and work side by side with kelly sadler. coming up, some members of team trump are getting very worried about team pence. 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enter mike pence, the "new york times" reports republican officials now see mr. pence as seeking to exercise expansive control over a political party ostense shl helped by mr. trump tending to his own allies and interests even when the president's instincts lean other wise. mike pence knows that he is going to be running for president in 2024, either to follow the trump presidency or to unseat the democrat who will have defeated donald trump. and mike pence knows that unlike donald trump he cannot win on personality alone. according to the times while mr. trump remains an major powering personality, he is mostly uninterested in the mechanics of managing a political party. his team of advisers is richb with personal divisions and the white house has not yet crafted a strategy for the midterms. so mr. trump's running mate has stepped into the void. today the pence team tried to counter any suspicions of disunity by donald trump's first campaign manager, corey lewandowski is joining the effort as an adviser to the pence political action committee. joining us now jonathan allen a recorder for nbc news digital. and john hileman is still with us. jonathan allen you've been reporting what's going on in the pence camp and the worries the trump camp has. what's the situation tonight? >> as you noted in the intro, mike pence has emerged as a political force on his own. he has a web of groups, including this super pac that corey lewandowski has signed on to, one's a political action community, the other is a nonprofit, a charity, that he's using to go around the republicans to help republicans and also himself. a lot of the folks in trump world were not pleased with that. one source told me that the president asked corey lewandowski to go kind of keep an eye on -- to keep an eye on pence world. and another source i talked to about this, you know, basically said trump and pence are generally aligned, they get along personally, but this is trump making sure it's clear to everyone who's still boss. >> and politico is reporting on another set of friction, which is john mccain has decided he doesn't want donald trump at his funeral but he does want the vice president. so what does the vice president do? does he attend? if he does attend, does that irritate president trump? >> hard to imagine it won't irritate president trump. but in the end i think president trump will be happy to outsource that particular activity, that particular duty to pence because i think trump would not want to go to the funeral. you know how trump is, trump will be -- trump is focussed on slates and i'm sure it has annoyed him to have heard that he's not welcome at the funeral. it's also the case of trump being as narcissistic as he is, he would rather be playing golf that day. so he will console himself with the notion, i didn't want to go to that thing anyhow. >> this story coincides with the leaks and the president calling his own staff traitors for leaking and part of the concerns about leaking is what's going on with the pence operation and what might they be leaking? >> the irony of donald trump calling people cowards and traitors for leaking is pretty strong. this is a guy who's been talking to the press for the last 30 years, sometimes under his own name, sometimes john baron or what have you. it appears from the reporting, everyone in trump world leaks. at some level i think the pence operation has been a little more tightly held and there are a bunch of pence people marbled throughout the white house. it's not just nick ayers, you have mark short, his experience on capitol hill was as mike pence's staff director when he was the chairman of the republican study committee and the republican conference in the house. so these pence guys know how to play the game in washington pretty well in a way i think a lot of the other trump folks may not be as adept at. so as a result i think their leaks are a little more strategic. >> john, one of the white house leakers in chief, kellyanne conway, was on fox news earlier tonight and actually saying that she actually expects there to be some firings -- personnel changes as they put it, as a result of the leaking investigations that they're trying to run now. >> i would bet a reasonable amount of money that is an empty threat. it's one of those things where you're asked -- people know you're conducting leak investigations, what will be the consequences of these leak investigations, ms. conway? nothi nothing. you can't say that. so you have to say there are going to be changes we're going to do something. i will say about mike pence this. if you think about the various things he's doing and the aggressiveness he's doing it, it does reflect his understanding he's playing a weak hand on some level. he's not the natural inheriter to donald trump's base or anybody's base at this point, he's looking at a situation where either donald trump is going to survive this first term, run for reelection or not, and either win or not. then he's looking at running in 2024. that's a long way down the road and the party is going to be radically different at the end of either one of those outcomes or trump is not going to finish out the first time, in which case pence will not be the inheriter, he'll be challenged by 25 republicans. many of them more beloved. so he has to do everything he's doing right now to put himself in a reasonable position to thrive let alone rise. >> on that, the most dramatic scenario we've considered, we have to take a break. thank you both for joining us, appreciate it. coming up, president trump did keep a campaign promise today. ♪ this is a jungle gym... and a baseball diamond... ...a mythical castle ...and a grand banquet hall. this is not just a yard. it's where memories are made. the john deere x350 select series with the exclusive one-touch mulchcontrol system. nothing runs like a deere™ save $300 on the x350 select series™ tractors with the purchase of a mulchcontrol™ kit. save $300 on the x350 select series™ fthere's flonase sensimist.tchy and watery near pollen. it relieves all your worst symptoms including nasal congestion, which most pills don't. and all from a gentle mist you can barely feel. flonase sensimist. the kayak explore tool shows you the places you can fly on your budget. so you can be confident you're getting the most bang for your buck. alo-ha. kayak. search one and done. metastatic breast cancer is relentless, but i'm relentless too. mbc doesn't take a day off, and neither will i. and i treat my mbc with new everyday verzenio- the only one of its kind that can be taken every day. in fact, verzenio is a cdk4 & 6 inhibitor for postmenopausal women with hr+, her2- mbc, approved, with hormonal therapy, as an everyday treatment for a relentless disease. verzenio + an ai is proven to help women have significantly more time without disease progression, and more than half of women saw their tumors shrink vs an ai. diarrhea is common, may be severe, and may cause dehydration or infection. before taking verzenio, tell your doctor if you have fever, chills, or other signs of infection. verzenio may cause low white blood cell counts, which may cause serious infection that can lead to death. serious liver problems can occur. symptoms may include tiredness, loss of appetite, stomach pain, and bleeding or bruising more easily than normal. blood clots that can lead to death have also occurred. talk to your doctor right away if you notice pain or swelling in your arms or legs, shortness of breath, chest pain or rapid breathing or heart rate. tell your doctor if you are pregnant, breastfeeding, or plan to become pregnant. common side effects include nausea, infections, low red and white blood cells and platelets, decreased appetite, headache, abdominal pain, tiredness, vomiting, and hair thinning or loss. i'm relentless. and my doctor and i choose to treat my mbc with verzenio. be relentless. ask your doctor about everyday verzenio. today, jared kushner was allowed to speak publically 5,900 miles away from the white house. >> by moving our embassy to jerusalem, we have shown the world once again that the united states can be trusted. we stand with our friends and allies, and above all else we've shown that the united states of america will do what's right, and so we have. >> and jared kushner was speaking, here's what was happening 50 miles away, violence erupted as thousands of palestinians protested at the fence. israeli troops used gun fire and tear gas. at least 58 people were killed and 2,700 wounded. at the white house, the press secretary placed all the violence on hamas. >> we believe that hamas is responsible for what's going on. >> no responsibility beyond that to the israeli authorities? kill at will? >> that i'm saying is we believe that hamas, as an organization, is engaged in action that's leading to these deaths. >> announcer: t-- >> the united nations security council will hold a meeting on gaza tomorrow. and nicholas christophe joins us on gaza next. don't juggle your home life and work life without it. ♪ ♪ don't skip that office meeting for a board meeting without it. don't keep it real... keep it going... or simply keep it in the family without it. and don't turn that business trip, into an overdue family trip without it. ♪ ♪ the more you live between life and business, the more you need someone at your back. the powerful backing of american express. don't live life without it. let your inner light loose with one a day women's. ♪ a complete multivitamin specially formulated with key nutrients plus vitamin d for bone health support. your one a day is showing. a peaceful night sleep without only imagine... frequent heartburn waking him up. now that dream is a reality. nexium 24hr stops acid before it starts for all-day, all-night protection. can you imagine 24 hours without heartburn? . as we have seen from the protests of the last month and even today, those provoking violence are part of the problem and not part of the solution. [ applause ] >> joining us now, nicholas kristof, pulitzer prize winning columnist for "the new york times." nick, you have been to israel and gaza many times. your reaction to today's events? >> i think first of all it's just kind of horrifying to watch a celebration at this new u.s. embassy at a time when 1,300 people are being shot 40 miles away in gaza. and i guess also it just strikes me that this is so unnecessary that -- and, you know, for 70 years the u.s. has aspired, not always succeeded, not always effectively, but we have aspired to be a good faith intermediary between israel and the palestinians. and by moving the embassy in this way and by today having the white house say -- not even call for restraint on israel a part just signals that we are no longer intermediaries. we're completely on the side of israel on this. and i guess i think also, you know, we're very much focused on gazans responding to the move of the american embassy, but let's also acknowledge that they are responding to a misery that has been created by a dozen years of an economic blockade that has systematically robbed people of economic opportunities, robbed people of hope, undermined the middle class, and obviously there are very genuine security issues that israel has to deal with and any country has to protect its border. but one would also like to see a little bit of restraint, a little bit of greater attempt to avoid unnecessary casualties. and, you know, instead what we've seen is journalists with press marketed on them being shot. my colleague, declan walsh, was at the border and saw a woman nearby, a 26-year-old woman who had a mental disability shot in the stomach, and i just find it kind of heartbreaking that at the moment this is going on, we are celebrating the opening of the embassy and not even calling for restraint. >> john brennan said today, deaths in gaza, result of utter disregard of trump and netanyahu for palestinian rights and homeland. by moving embassy to jerusalem, trump play politics, destroyed u.s. peace maker role, new generation of israelis, palestinians, need to isolate extremists to find path to peace. that last hopeful sentence seems like a distant dream. >> remember the trump administration talking about how it was going to bring peace. and instead what it has brought is a despair and hopelessness and undermined the leadership in these areas. and, look, you know, when the white house criticizes hamas, absolutely. hamas has been repressive. it has been an awful administrator of gaza. there's tremendous resentment against it. but we aren't responsible for hamas. we are arming israel. we're providing israel with aid. and when our ally then goes and shoots 1,300 people in one day, i mean this is like a war what was going on today. and then we don't even call for restraint. i -- and when we're celebrating, it just seems to tonally just repulsive and repugnant to me. >> nicholas kristof, who has real experience in the region, thank you very much for joining us tonight. tonight's last word is next. but with scotts turf builder weed & feed, bill has nothing to worry about. it kills weeds and greens grass, guaranteed. this is a scotts yard. man: juggling all the things we do is a challenge. woman: but hey, it's a fun challenge. man 2: and our tempur-pedic helps us make it all work. woman 2: it gives us the best night's sleep ever. woman 3: i recommend my tempur-pedic to everybody. the most highly recommended bed in america. now ranked highest in customer satisfaction with mattresses by jd power and number one in comfort, support and value. there's no better time to experience the superior sleep of tempur-pedic. save up to $700 on select adjustable mattress sets during our memorial day sale. visit tempurpedic.com to find your exclusive retailer today. visit tempurpedic.com i'm all-business when i, travel... even when i travel... for leisure. so i go national, where i can choose any available upgrade in the aisle - without starting any conversations- -or paying any upcharges. what can i say? 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ask your hep c specialist about harvoni. tonight's last word is from last night's episode of john heilemann's show, the circus, on showtime. >> i stop predicting what happens in a world where donald trump's a factor. and the only similar sensation that we've ever felt to this were the final two years of the nixon presidency, which ended the way it ended. there's never been anything else that feels like that. but nixon was a rational man compared to trump, and therefore to a certain extent, predictable. this is completely unpredictable, and everyone who issues predictions in this thing is faking it. >> the circus gets tonight's last word. one of the writers of a new "washington post" story that reveals what it is like inside robert mueller's grand jury room will join brian in "the 11th hour" with brian williams, which starts now. tonight inside the russia investigation as robert mueller enters year two as special counsel. ashley parker of the "washington post" standing by with details of her story based on 22 sources. plus five days and no white house apology to john mccain after mocking his fight with terminal cancer. instead, the president calls the leakers of the comment traitors and cowards. that's all in the west wing. but in the east wing, total secrecy. zero leaks as the first lady goes in for a medical procedure about which little is known. "the 11th hour" on a monday night begins now. another monday, and good evening once again from our nbc news headquarters here in new york. day 4

Transcripts For MSNBCW Morning Joe 20191121

mom you've got to [ get yourself a new car.g ] i wish i could save faster. you're making good choices. you'll get there. ♪ were you going to tell me about this? i know i can't afford to go. i still have this car so you can afford to go. i am so proud of you. thanks. principal. we can help you plan for that. start today at principal.com. sadly, we have a president who is not only a pathological liar, he's the most corrupt president in the united states. >> i learned that donald trump doesn't want me to be the nominee, that's pretty clear. >> this is a president that not only with regard to his conduct with ukraine, but every step of the way puts his own private interests, his own partisan interests, his own political interests in front of our country's interests. >> we have to establish the principle no one is above the law. we have a constitutional responsibility and weapon need to meet it. how did ambassador sondland get there? this is not a man who had any qualifications except one, he wrote a check for a million dollars. and that tells us about what's happening in washington. >> we have a criminal living in the white house. ambassador sondland by his own words told us that everyone was in the loop. that means it is a criminal enterprise engaged in by the president, from what we heard today, the vice president, the secretary of state, and the chief of staff. >> okay. the impeachment hearings first topic of last night's democratic debate. joining us now senior adviser movon.org and karine jean-pierre. we are working all hours, so -- >> what was your take of the debate last night, winners, losers? what did we learn? >> first, shoutout to the female moderators, they did a great job. we should probably have female moderators for the rest of the debate. i think that there were key moments, but i don't know if there was a clear winner. but i thought amy klobuchar, kamala harris, cory booker, pete buttigieg had some very interesting moments there if the was substantive debate and it was different than any of the other debates. there wasn't one person that was getting all of the attacks. you had a lot of two-offs in the debate. the one thing that truly bothered me was tulsi gabbard. arc and what i mean by that she seems to think that our sole goal is to attack other democrats, and yet it may get her some points up in iowa and new hampshire, but it's not going to win her the nomination. and i think kamala harris and pete buttigieg did a great job defending against her attacks. >> i think we had been speculate ngts days before whether pete buttigieg who's surging in the polls quickly in iowa but there's a new one where he's doing well. in warren was doing well, she took the brunt of the assaults. that didn't really happen last night. he took a few in the end but candidates pulled their punches and didn't go after him hard. there were good moments for a lot of candidates. senator klobuchar had a good night. senator booker's closing statement about lewis was powerful. i don't think the field will change that much after last night. i think it reinforces a lot of what people thought. but that does include questions about former vice president biden who did appear shaky at times. >> at times? >> several. >> which time in the time he was talking about stopping domestic violence where you've got to punch it, and punch it, and punch it. >> three times. >> or when he talked about the only black woman to ever be in the senate endorsing him. or this moment. this was his opening statement. >> look, the next president of the united states will have to do two things. defeat donald trump, that's number one, and number two, going to have to make -- be able to go into states like georgia and north carolina and other places and get a senate majority. that's what i'll do. you have to ask yourself up here, who is most likely to be able to win the nomination in the first place -- to win the presidency in the first place and secondly, who is most likely to increase the number of people who are democrats in the house and in the senate? and, by the way, i learned something about these impeachment trials. i learned, number one, that donald trump doesn't want me to be the nominee. that's pretty clear. he held up aid to make sure that while at the same time innocent people in the country are get being killed by russian soldiers. secondly i found out that vladimir putin doesn't want me to be president. >> of course, willie, he's struggling there. he's closing his eyes. he knows he's having trouble finding words. the sentences are jumbled, the words are jumbled. i just worried when i read -- you see this and, listen, i'm just saying, i think biden has the best chance of beating trump. i do. like if he's on his game. but i just wonder, is the media grading joe biden on a scale? are we afraid to say that a lot of his sentences don't make sense? that he's having trouble completing thoughts? that when he's asked in a previous debate about afghanistan an issue he knows more about than anybody, not only on that stage, but in washington, d.c., he ends up stumbling through an answer on iraq. are we grading him on a scale the same way people have always graded donald trump on a scale in these debates? >> yes. the answer is yes. i mean -- >> is that smart for democrats do? how is he going to do -- this has been a leisurely pace for joe biden. >> right. >> as jonathan was saying last night, compared to what happens starting in january and through the entire year. >> objectively, yes, those performances publicly are shaky. particularly in the debates. but, the other side of that, jonathan, is the american people are watching this too and look how he's doing, right? he's still hanging in. he's right there in iowa, he's right there in new hampshire, he's way ahead in south carolina. in nevada he's lead as well. the american people are watching and probably making calculation that joe has made. he just turned 77 yesterday, doesn't look good in the debates but i believe in my heart that he's the man that can beat donald trump and that's my bottom line objective. it shows up in polls. elizabeth warren has surged, no question. pete buttigieg has surged. bernie sanders still doing very well and performing well in debates. but joe biden for all his flaws and for all his performances that we've seen another one last night, he's still right there and he's still the guy a lot of democrats think can beat donald trump. >> and his place in the polls has stabilized in recent weeks. >> he's pretty dominating now. >> national polls are doing well, he's doing great in south carolina. this is -- there are growing concerns among democrats in terms of whether he's up for this. as joe and i was just saying, like the pace is only going to pick up. the campaign is largely other than these debates kept him out of a lot of big public moments and the public eye. but when it rolls to january and three weeks to iowa and the break neck pace to the primaries and if he is the nominee through the president election, president trump we could say he ran a robust campaign schedule in 2016, he sushl will again. what are you hearing in terms of whether joe biden is up for the job? >> i've heard that they don't know if he's going to be -- this is the folks in my circle, right, the folks who are doing this behind the scenes and wondering can he do it once -- if he becomes the nominee and he's up against donald trump? and the thing is, here's -- i think is what voters are seeing. they want to beat donald trump. and right now even though buttigieg is surging, warren is surging, they don't see who else can beat donald trump. they feel like, well, you know, biden is the number two of vice president -- i'm sorry, president obama and they know him, they feel comfortable with him and they just don't see anyone just yet who can beat donald trump. and that is the -- it's the name i.d. that he has, it's the comfort and they cannot break from that. and i think that is the thing that other candidates are having a hard time breaking. >> and i think, you know, i feel a little defensive for him right now, actually, just watching him because this, you know, if you look at how he's doing, and you look at who he is and you look at his history personally and professionally, he is best suited for the job, one could argue. and, you know, whether his performance on a debate stage with 12 other people in 30 seconds or less is pitch perfect, i'm not sure it matters. and i think the voters who are engaged right now, they're really looking at those factors, who he is, ha his background is, what kind of a person he is. who do they want to beat trump? and who they want to lead this country and bring us back to some version, some semblance of normal. and so in some ways, you know, back to your point, joe, is he being graded differently? i almost think that the opposite is happening. and, you know, it's still a little bit too much a focus on those 30 second sound bites. >> you've got to be able to complete a sentence if you're running for president. >> yes. >> especially if it's the first sentence you do during a debate. i mean, he knows the question is coming. it was his opening statement. so, i mean, mike, of course if he is graded on the low curve, the reason why may in part be because he's running against a man who knows less about issues than anybody who was ever sat in the white house before and who is absolutely horrific at every debate when it came to policy and substance four years ago, and that's donald trump. >> look, joe biden's strength obviously is not standing on a stage with nine other candidates during a debate, it just isn't. >> i don't think it ever has been. >> his strength is, and you just nailed it, his strength is who he is and who people think he is when they look at him and when they measure him. and the thing for the democrats is, the question is are you willing to risk giving the nomination to someone who you really don't know whether he can beat or he or she can beat donald trump? and biden they figure, that might be their best shot. tom nichols, i don't know about your assessment of it, but what did you think about joe biden and the rest of the field last night? >> one of the things that's striking to me is we're grading biden on an unfair curve because we're gragd hding him against a imaginary joe biden who we seem to remember being really eloquent and capable as a speaker. he had a rough night at the outset, but was joe biden ever the kind of guy that finished sentences, you know, didn't get lost in his thoughts? this is kind of who he is, really. you know, he's -- i think he's missed a step, i think that's not the natural format for him for sure and i think actually the democratic party made a mistake. i've said it from the beginning with these, you know, overly inclusive debates that include people that are absolutely no hopers who just get to stand there and throw rocks like tulsi gabbard. so, you know, in some sense people know biden. i mean, he's not that different from the guy he was 20 or 25 years ago. he's always been gaff prone and a little uncertain. but i think, you know, mike's point is absolutely right. are you going to go with that or are you going to say, you know, once again we're going to lose 100,000 votes in the rust belt, have a big electoral blowout and that's the big concern. >> all right. tom nichols, thank you so much for being on this morning. and coming up on "morning joe," three of the candidates on last night's debate stage, senator kamala harris, mayor pete buttigieg, and senator amy klobuchar, "morning joe" is coming back in two minutes. klobuchar, "morning joe" is coming back in twoin mutes. (people talking) for every dollar you spend at a small business, an average of 67 cents stays local. shop small and watch it add up. small business saturday by american express is november 30th. >> mr. president, what exactly did you hope zelensky with do with the bidens after the phone call, exactly? >> well, i would think that if they were honest about it they'd start a major investigation into the bidens. it's a very simple answer. they should investigate the bidens. >> wow, just reminder that last month he just said it out loud. >> that's the thing. he says things out loud. he says it about ukraine. he says it about china. he said it in his non transcript that we got to read. >> just read it. >> read it. >> welcome back to "morning joe," it is thursday, november 21st. still with joe, willie and me we have white house reporter for the associated press jonathan lemire and former aide to the george w. bush white house and state departments elise jordan. joining the conversation national affairs analyst for nbc news and msnbc john heilman. he's the co-host and executive producer of show time's the issue is cuss. and columnist and associate editor for "the washington post," david ignatius is back with us this morning. at the very end of our show yesterday, we got the bombshell opening statement from u.s. ambassador to the european union gordon sondland. and hearing him deliver it was just as dramatic. here he is acknowledging a quid pro quo with ukraine while implicating the president, the vice president, and the secretary of state. >> secretary perry, ambassador volker, and i worked with mr. rudy giuliani on ukraine matters at the express direction of the president of the united states. we did not want to work with mr. giuliani. simply put, we were playing the hand we were dealt. we all understood that if we refused to work with mr. swro l giuliani, we would lose a very important opportunity to cement relations between the united states and ukraine. so we followed the president's orders. mr. giuliani's requests were a quid pro quo for arranging a white house visit for president zelensky. mr. giuliani demanded that ukraine make a public statement announcing the investigations of the 2016 election dnc server and burisma. mr. giuliani was expressing the desires of the president of the united states and we knew these investigations were important to the president. was there a quid pro quo? as i testified previously with regard to the requested white house call and the white house meeting, the answer is yes. >> i want to go back to the conversation you had with vice president pence right before that meeting in warsaw. and you indicated that you said to him that you were concerned that the delay in the aid was tied to the issue and investigations, is that right? >> i don't know exactly what i said to him in the was a briefing attended by many people and i was invited at the very last minute. i wasn't scheduled to be there. but i think i spoke up at some point late in the meeting and said, it looks like everything is being held up until these statements get made and that's my, you know, personal belief. >> and vice president pence just nodded his head? >> again, i don't recall any exchange or where he asked me any questions. i think it was sort of a duly noted -- >> well, he didn't say, gordon, what are you talking about? >> no, he did not. >> he didn't say, what investigations? >> he did not. we made every effort to ensure that the relevant decisionmakers at the national security council and the state department knew the important details of our efforts. the suggestion that we were engaged in some irregular or rogue diplomacy is absolutely false. everyone was in the loop. it was no secret. i sent an email to counselor breckbull and lisa kenna. lisa kenna was frequently used as the pathway to secretary pompeo as sometimes he would prefer to get his emails sent through her. she would print them out and put them in front of him. with the subject of ukraine, i wrote, mike, referring to mike pompeo, kurt and i negotiated a statement from zelensky to be delivered for our review in a day or two. the contents will hopefully make the boss happy enough, the boss being the president, to authorize an invitation. zelensky plans to have a big presser, press conference, on the openness subject, including specifics next week. all of which referred to the 2016 and the burisma. ms. kenna replied, gordon, i'll pass to the secoretary. thank you. again, everyone was in the loop. >> david ignatius, everyone was in the loop. we were following the president's orders. what was your takeaway from yesterday's bombshell testimony, not only in the morning but also later in the afternoon? >> joe, there are days when you feel as if history is turning a little bit on its hinge, and yesterday was one of them. we will not look at this impeachment inquiry, i think, democrats or republicans, whatever our viewpoints, in quite the same way after this testimony. the lines stick in your memory and the answer is yes on the question of a quid pro quo. and then the one that you just mentioned, everyone was in the loop. sondland basically, in the mild demeanor, guy who was friendly to donald trump, got his job as a campaign contributor, game to congress having decided to tell the truth. he was not going to be one more person to go down defending donald trump's reputation. and his testimony just had that crackle of truth and impact. republicans, i thought, were really just didn't know what do with him. >> yeah. >> but i think this investigation, joe, now is on a somewhat different course. it's -- you can have more confidence that it's going to be steady. i thought the final telling point after the -- after that testimony of david hale in the late afternoon, what was the schiff's closing comments, that's not anticorruption, that's corruption over and over again. you can see the chairman sensing this say new phase of the investigation. >> he said this is a seminal moment in our investigation and the evidence you have brought forward is deeply significant and troubling. now my colleagues seem to think that unless the president says the magic words i hear by bribe the ukrainians, there is no evidence of bribery or other high crimes or misdemeanor. i must say, the republican defense, john heil plan, we'man talked about it before, makes no more sense than bank robbers saying we didn't get the money, we didn't use our guns, we didn't kill anybody because the police officers stormed in three minutes before while we were inside the bank, masked, ready to take the money, but they stormed in just to time to stop us. you know, jim jordan's argument was there's no quid pro quo because the announcement never happened, the meeting never happened, and the aid got released. all because they got caught. these republicans yesterday on the committee were forced to say that getting caught trying to commit a crime is a defense to that crime. >> right. and i think more than that, joe. and i agree with david in the sense that as we read that testimony here at the table yesterday, you could see what was happening. you could see that gordon sondland decided he was not going to go downtor donald trump a for donald trump and made a scapegoat in the classical mob trial that he was going to flip overon everyone on everyone. mike pompeo, john bolton, one of the people leading the united states government when all this went on, the attorney general, the president of the united states, there are not that many people at that very top level. sondland's ex-p sondland impla indicating all of them. you can see at the end of the first two hours it was clear what they were going to do, then they found their footing. and their footing in a condense that they seized on the argument that sondland had never heard the president say that he was exchanging -- basically building an arms for host ages, not arms for hostages, but that trade. >> for dirt. >> because he hadn't heard it directly from the president, they seized on that and went after him and after him. to me, it was watching in a very the same way that sondland laid bear the breadth and depth of the corruption of the united states government under donald trump in this moment just made it very clear that was the seminal moment on that side. on the republican side -- >> can i say on that front, he was saying what the president was saying to everybody, including the president of ukraine, talk to rudy, talk to rudy, rudy's running this. >> yeah. >> so for republicans to act stupid, wait -- >> this is my point. i don't think they're acting stupid. >> you think they are stupid? >> i do think that. but there's something nor fundamental to it. which is the same way sondland made clear how corrupt the administration is with the degree of clarity we've never seen before, you could see republicans at war with reality. deciding that their political interests, for whatever reason, is now to just deny what is now clear as the nose on your face and that they're willing to appear stupid in order to serve the dear leader. >> to deny the obvious, and you can look at, you know, elaine stefanik later in the hearings. she's going through the same thing and she's saying, willie, there's no aid. the aid got, you know, we received the aid and all of these things that happened many times happened on the day that the whistle-blower complaint got out. that is like chief wigham putting a gun in your back and then you quickly scribbling a note i'm not going to rob the bank, i'm not going to rob the bank. too late. they got busted. you don't get to declare your innocence after chief wigham and the springfield police department bust you robbing the bank. >> elise stefanik has become one of the face of the republicans defense of president trump. but the entire white house and that republican defense we saw yesterday, they think they really got something here, is the president calling on july 9th and talking to ambassador sondland and saying, i want nothing, i want nothing, i want no quid pro quo. he wrote it down on a card in sharpie yesterday and said are your cameras rolling? you can see it right there. i'll say again. the problem is on that same day, july the 9th, is when the whistle-blower report was delivered to the intel committee. the white house knows the game support, i better get on the record. >> he's been busted. >> and say explicitly that i want nothing, i want no quid pro quo. >> but, he told zelensky, the president, that he did want a quid pro quo. i need something from you. i need the investigations of 2016. i need the investigations into biden. biden, biden, biden. >> do us a favor, though. it's right there in the rough transcript of that call. this is -- the president is not able to distance himself from this no matter what he might say or scrawl on a notepad and sharpie. bringing that up, if you look at the picture image again, you can say this will be the final word of the united states. >> i cannot believe this. >> that resembles a sent list and it's a bold move to go with i want nothing twice in a row. i'd save at least one them for the end. >> if you look at republicans performance yesterday, it's craven. look at who it is and what it is they are trying to defend here. beyond who being the president himself. think of the damage at this point, this reckless disregard for our national security, for the work that these people have done, for the generations of work, for the decades of work laid out by so many state department officials trying to work on america's national security and they are throwing it away for a corrupt politician, for one guy. >> and it's a bad-faith argument. >> a bad-faith argument. >> and an tempt an attempt for >> but what it requires, mika, it requires that the people listening on talk radio or the people watching on other cable news networks are completely ignorant of the facts of this case. >> right. >> it requires that they know absolutely nothing about the timeline, they know absolutely nothing about the players, they know absolutely nothing about the president's own admissions. and yesterday i found myself -- i just was -- even sondland himself acting like he didn't know what burisma was attached to. is that like a coffee manufacturer? i have no idea. oh, yes, i've made it my business to stick my nose into ukraine, but i have no idea, despite the fact the president wasn't saying burisma, the president was saying to zelensky in the phone call, biden, biden, biden, talk to rudy about biden, biden, biden. talk to the attorney general about biden, biden, biden. come on. how stupid do they think we all are? >> and bill taylor's testimony. >> this is where we are now, though, is that the entire republican party has nothing but a bad faith argument. that's all it is now. i think the question we come back to is the question to come back to what david said a second ago, this is a history moment. i think for those of us who care about institutions and there's a way in which what obviously happened here aunnd all the evidence has led to us believe does turn on what happens next. and the question of whether this is a hinge in history moment is whether the next thing now transpires that should naturally transpire. are john bolton and mike pompeo and others at that level up to and including the president of the united states, is there going to be a mechanism that forces them to come forward to testify to get on the record, to be put -- to not just stand in front of the country under oath and testify on these matters? if that happens, this could be a hinge of history moment. but if that doesn't happen and republicans continue to engage in the giant lie, the giant bad faith argument that they've hinged their entire existence on to the last three years and we end up with no consequence what's is over for this, it may not be a hichk history momenge moment. it's that central at this point, what happens next now. >> if there's no consequences, it is a hinge of history. it's a very bad turn. we'll hold on to the facts here as hard as we can. we heard from defense official laura cooper who's testimony suggested that the ukrainians were aware of the hold on u.s. security assistance much earlier than the white house has claimed. >> on the issue of ukraine's knowledge of the hold or of ukraine asking questions about possible issues with the flow of assistance, my staff showed me two unclassified emails that they received from the state department. one was received on july 25th at 2:31 p.m. that email said that the ukrainian embassy and house foreign affairs committee are asking about security assistance. the second email was received on july 25th at 4:25 p.m. that email said that the hill knows about the fmf situation to an extent and so does the ukrainian embassy. on july 3rd at 4:23 p.m. they received an email from the state department stating that they had heard that the cn is currently being blocked by omb. this apparently refers to the notification state would send for ukraine fmf. >> but your staff at least gleaning from those conversations that ukrainian embassy was aware that there was some kind of a hold on the assistance? >> sir, the way i would phrase is it is that there was some kind of an issue, yes. >> months before president trump froze the money, the department of defense in consultation with state sent a letter to congress certifying, and you said this in your opening statement, the government of ukraine has taken substantial actions to make defense institutional reforms for the purposes of decreasing corruption, increasing accountability and sustaining improvements of combat capability enabled by u.s. assistance. so by the time president trump froze the aid, the department of defense had spent weeks, if not months, determining that the ukrainian government met every requirement in the law and made significant strides in combating corruption. is that correct? >> that is correct. we made that determination in may. >> david ignatius, that lays it out in a rather stark manner. they made the determination in may. donald trump still trying to hold it up in august. what was your takeaway from the hearing and, i must ask, i know you're on the phone and got contacts across the world. what are the ukrainians thinking about this spectacle right now? >> so, joe, first about laura cooper's testimony, i thought she helped demolish one of the republican talking points. it's why i think their ability to defend is just being eroded day by day. their argument had been, well, ukrainians didn't know that aid had been suspended, they weren't being blackmailed, they weren't being bribed, they didn't know. well, here's very specific testimony that they did know and that they were asking about it and worrying about it. similarly, the argument that the aid was delivered in the end i think was partially demolished by what you were talking about a moment ago, the fact that the aid was only resumed after the white house, after president trump must have been aware from conversations with defense, from other discussions that this was about to come out. the whistle-blower and other public revelations of the aid suspension were about to surface. and then suddenly, i don't want anything, i don't want a quid pro quo. so that's striking testimony. i have been talking to ukrainians. i was with distinguished former official last night who is not part of the cesspool corruption in ukraine and i asked him what he made of the ukraine scandals. it's a scandal. and he said this is a good thing for ukraine. americans now are talking about how important it is for us to be free and independent, how important our fight against corruption is. they want it to be a sensible country. so what are my takeaways from this? one of the hinges to go back to what john was talking about, one hinge is we'll look at ukraine differently now. we'll want it to be a place that works and we'll know why that's important. >> yeah. so, elise, we listened to ms. cooper yesterday and there was some follow-up questions on where the republicans tried to draw some political blood. they failed miserably. >> i loved laura cooper yesterday. my heart just soared a little bit to see how strong she was and how thorough and how unflappable. >> yes. >> i thought it was just a really impressive display of a person in the u.s. government who cares about their job, is passionate and is good about it. and it was just jaw dropping to watch how republican congressional members tried to stump her. and they tried to get her to say it was completely normal for a foreign country to follow-up about when they're aid was going to be delivered when she introduced the new email evidence that the ukrainians had reached out about. hey, what's up with the money? i found that to be significant, that she was able to just immediately be, like, no, this isn't actually the norm. >> and that's, again, first hand account. she said i have emails that show the ukrainians knew that the assistance was being held up. she shot holes quietly because people may have been wiped out after gordon sondland's testimony took place in the evening. go back and watch laura cooper, because she shot holes in the white house defense. >> john heilman, you're talking about this go. i will say it's interesting, ken starr yesterday his reaction on fox news, it doesn't look good for the president substantively. also there is now proof that president trump committed the crime of bribery in the eyes of the democrats. this has to be one of those bombshell days. andrew napolitano said that testimony, he's correct, devastating. absolutely devastating for donald trump. other conservatives on twitter with pretty substantial following saying the same thing. finally, asking the question that i wish they would have asked two or three years ago, is it really worth all these federal judges to have someone who is this corrupt, who humiliates the united states this badly, can we not as conservatives do better than this? >> yes. look, if you looked at the reaction of the particularly fox news conservatives immediately after the first part of sondland's testimony you would have gotten the impression that this was really a moment that could change everything. and i still think it is a moment that could change everything. but by the end of the day a lot of those same conservatives had been brought back to a place of their typical docility. so ken starr's position changed over the course of the day and he he was saying well, i was representing one point of view. i was saying what adam schiff will say on the basis rather than my assessment on the question of whether trump had now been implicated in bribery. the talking points that guide the conservative movement now, the republican party, not all of them. there's tons of smart never trumper conservatives out there make those points. but even on fox news the moment where it seemed like they were shaken two hours in, as the republicans on the committee found their talking points, you saw it also on fox news, they found they all got themselves on to the script and they passed around the talking points at the end of the day, no quid pro quo here. you didn't hear trump say this to sondland, sondland's just saying this. these are all presumptions. again, i think there's really now a mechanical point. can democrats get this next layer of witnesses? we're done at the end of this week. we go to thanksgiving next week. there's still, in theory, a couple more weeks of open field running before we get to when the house wants to vote on articles before christmas. so in those first couple weeks of december, what happens to this investigation? and you know that adam schiff and others on the democratic side of the aisle want to now take this thing to the next level. can they get enforceable subpoenas? does this end up in front of the supreme court? what becomes the mechanism by which mike pompeo ends up in front of that committee. >> exact. >> i having to take the oath. which there's no one that watched yesterday's testimony who is fair mind who'd doesn't come to the conclusion that justice demands that mike pompeo have to testify under oath. will he be compelled to? >> so let's ask that to a member of the house intelligence committee democratic congressman sean patrick maloney of new york. what is the path there to hear from people like secretary pompeo who clearly have answers to the questions? >> well the path, first and foremost, is for the people with subpoenas to stop avoiding that lawful pro sfwles bcess? >> but what if they don't. >> there's going to be a judge that's going to set is the precedent and i'm going to predict the white house isn't going to like it. these are decisions frankly above my pay grade. the chairman and speaker and others will have to decide, although we'll be in the discussions today whether that game is worth the candle. whether given the overwhelming evidence that we have that the president used taxpayer funded military assistance to help him in his re-election campaign needs to be further demonstrated by the people who have even more evidence of it. you know, there's a val you too that, you bet. and i think the day is coming for all these people. i mean, ask roger stone, ask paul manafort, ask rick gates, ask michael cohen. there's -- there's others who have thought they could run from accountability, but it tends to catch up with you. and i think the day is coming when john bolton stops making money off book deals and has to give his evidence like three of his deputies did at risk to their own professional careers while he was out trying to make a buck on it. i think the day is coming when mike pompeo is going to have to answer for why he let marie yovanovitch be thrown under the bus and clearly knew all of these things in realtime. we heard that directly from ambassador sondland yesterday. and the day is sure coming for mick mulvaney who came out and told us all why the president did this. said there was a quid pro quo and told us to get over if the well, we're not over it and he'll be held to account in the fullness of time. but the real issue is whether we can hold the president accountable given the facts and evidence that we have. >> it's willie geist, good to see you this morning. republicans and the white house thought they had a checkmate moment when the president was quoted as saying, i want nothing, i want nothing, i want no quid pro quo. ambassador sondland testified that took place in a phone call from the president to ambassador sondland on september the 9th. what is your reaction to that and your response to that that that is somehow exculpatory? >> it's nonsense and you've covered that pretty well. we know that they knew about the whistle-blower report at that point. i asked sondland what he wanted and unprompted the president said no quid pro quo as if that's an expression that people use when people ask you what you want. it's almost as if somebody had told him there's a whistle-blower saying you're pressuring a foreign leader, you're soliciting a bribe, so you better deny the key legal element which is quid pro quo and he did so. but as joe pointed out, you know, pretty colorfully, you don't get a lot of credit for that when you're already busted. >> absolutely. the testimony, to be specific, this is from ambassador sondland, was there a quid pro quo? as i testified previously with regard to the requested white house call and the white house meeting, the answer is yes. so, congressman, big picture, because there was a long day yesterday. some people caught bits and pieces, some people sat through all of it. what was your big takeaway from yesterday? what was the story you heard from ambassador sondland and the two witnesses later in the day? >> oh, critical testimony yesterday. there was a quid pro quo. they acted at the direction of the president of the united states through mr. giuliani. that the ukrainians knew about it. and that when they were busted, they tried to cover it up. i mean, all of the key things we have been asserting are being borne out step by step by the facts and the evidence. it is as bad as you thought it was. and to have laura cooper following in the afternoon to say the ukrainians knew about it earlier, there aren't many defenses left for the republicans so they retreat into this so what defense. and as i've said before, so what is where our democracy goes to die. you cannot not care about this because it matters. and the president should be held accountable. >> congressman sean patrick maloney, thank you very much. we'll be watching to see how this plays out. and still ahead, we're going to talk about last night's democratic debate. one of the moderators, ashley parker, joins us along with former senator clair mccaskill. plus, three of the candidates senator kamala harris, amy klobuchar and mayor pete buttigieg join us. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. >> you said it's wrong to investigate political opponents. we've agreed on that today, haven't we, sir? >> yes. >> and yet of course that's what we know the president was asking for. let me ask you something. who would have benefited from an investigation of the president's political opponents? >> i don't want to characterize who would have and who would not have. >> i know you don't want to, sir, that's my question. would you answer it for me? it's a pretty simple question, isn't it? i guess i'm having trouble why you can't just say -- >> when he asked about investigations, i assumed he meant -- >> i know what you assumed. but who would benefit from the investigation of the bidens? >> therethey're two different questions. >> i'm just asking you one. who would benefit from the investigation of the bidens? >> i'm assuming president trump. >> there we have it. see. assuming president trump. >> there we have it. see. great presentation, tim. could you email me the part about geico making it easy to switch and save hundreds? oh yeah, sure. um. you don't know my name, do you? 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>> a couple takeaways. one was i was sort of surprised that there was no major moment of the candidates really going after each other because in the days and weeks leading up to the debate you are seeing them sniping at each other everywhere, especially all the candidates kind of piling on mayor buttigieg. and there were some one-off exchanges where things got a little heated here and there between one or two candidates. but we felt like we had some questions which would have allowed the candidates, had they wanted to, to take the swings they have been previewing. and on the whole unless you count the very end part of the debate, it was notable in some ways for what didn't happen. which was nobody went off mayor buttigieg in the way that i think everyone had expected, including the mayor himself heading into last night. >> i think, clair mckaction cass skill, th mccaskill, that might have been a smart move. >> after hours of impeachment hearing testimony for our candidates to take the stage and snipe at each other wasn't going to sit well. everyone wants to have a sense that we can unify when this is all over. you know, i did think that mayor pete showed he could pivot and punch. >> yep. >> i did think that kamala harris was masterful in her takedown of tulsi gabbard who, by the way, if you're a candidate for president in the democratic party and you can't say assad is a war criminal, shame on you. >> exactly. >> shame on you. >> what is going on there? >> it's very odd. >> her explanation was well, fdr met with stalin was her defense of it. >> she was asked by chris in the after the debate in the spin room do you believe that assad say war criminal? and she equivocated. i'm like, what the -- >> what's going on there? we don't need anymore of that. >> ashley, there's always the complaint after the debate you didn't talk about climate change and everything that's going on. you did a great job. what was the feeling in the room and amongst those of you talking afterward about the performance of vice president biden who is still the front runner, if you look at national polling. how did he do last night? >> there was a sense that there was sort of peaks and valleys. he had some answers where you were watching and he really seemed to be struggling. and then he had a couple of very strong answers people thought that his closing statement was good. he had a good answer and response in the question to about how democrats would handle the chance of lock him up that they're now hearing at campaign rallies. and then there were other moments where he, again, he really seemed to struggle, including using sort of violent language when he was talking about the violence against women act and kind of not realizing what he was doing with that metaphor there. so for vice president biden it was spotty. and he's been consistently spotty for these past five debates. >> ashley, it's jonathan. wanted to first of all compliment you on your great work last night, particularly bringing up questions on issues that haven't been covered, like paid family leave and child care. i thought that was important to add to the discussion. but i want to talk about the other front runner right now, senator elizabeth warren who i feel like had a strong opening and then faded to the background for a while before coming back forcefully at the end. want to get to your sense of how she did last night. she was, let's remember, in the previous debate came in surging and was the unlike mayor pete buttigieg who i agree largely was not attacked. last time around she was. did she reset herself last night? >> yeah, i think what you saw from senator warren is what people expected to see. even in response to some of the questions she was very good at pivoting to, for instance, the wealth tax to a question that i'd actually very little to do with the wealth tax. about her plans. i don't know how much you can see on tv, but in the room basically any time a question came up that touched on anything where she had a plan, which as we all know is a lot, her hand would shoot up and shoot up and shoot up. and so i think it was a solid performance by her. she was, as you pointed out, she was not under assault the way she was in the previous debate. i don't think she said anything that surprised anyone, but she came away as sort of true to her core. which assume her base and her supporters will appreciate. >> all right. "the washington post" ashley parker, thanks very much for being on this morning. and coming up, our first of three presidential candidates this morning. senator kamala harris joins us next on "morning joe." we're back in a moment. on "mo" we're back in a moment. ♪ hi honey, we got in early. yeah, and we brought steve and mark. ♪ experience the power of sanctuary at the lincoln wish list sales event. sign and drive off in a new lincoln with zero down, zero due at signing, and a complimentary first month's payment. only pay for what you need with liberty mutual. any comments doug? yeah. only pay for what you need with liberty mutual. con liberty mutual solo pagas lo que necesitas. only pay for what you need... only pay for what you need. liberty. liberty. liberty. liber♪y i didn't have to call 911.help. and i didn't have to come get you. because you didn't have another heart attack. not today. you took our conversation about your chronic coronary artery disease to heart. even with a 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elected to the united states senate. >> that's not true. >> that's not true. >> the other one is here. >> i said the first. i say the first -- >> thank you. >> the first -- the first african american. so my point is, my point is the reason i was picked to be vice president, it was because of my relationship, longstanding relation with the black community. i was part of that coalition. >> all right. joining us now, democratic presidential candidate, senator kamala harris. my gosh, bright and early, i don't know how you're doing these hours, all of you. >> it's 2 1/2 hours sleep and we're here. >> how do you think it went last night? >> i thought it was a good night. a lot of important issues were covered and, you know, this is -- there's so much at stake. and, as i say often, if not all the time, justice is on the ballot and so talking about the various injustices, including the subject matter of the impeachment process, it's an important discussion. >> so moving forward strategically for your campaign, what are the challenges? how do we get the debate stage down to two or three candidates and how do you make sure kamala harris is one of them? >> yeah, you know, mika, the reality, you know, i'm just into real talk at that point. the reality is that the top of the, you know, the top of the field many have been on the stage for decades. they're familiar, they're known, and they have name i.d. for that reason. my challenge is to up my name i.d. and introduce myself to people. you know, a large part of it is the fundraising piece. i need to raise the money to be on tv in iowa. you know, as soon as possible. that's just a crude fact of running for president. and until we have campaign finance reform, which will be one of my first areas of focus when elected, until that happens, that's a part of the process. >> senator harris, willie geist. good to see you this morning. >> hi. >> i know you're busy preparing for a debate yesterday, but there was some, as we've been talking about all morning some incredibly damning testimony put forward by ambassador sondland and two witnesses later in the day. i understand you're a potential juror in this case as a united states senator, but you're also a prosecutor. >> yes. >> as you listen to the evidence, is there any doubt in your mind that president trump has committed an impeachable offense here? >> we have not yet, the american people have not yet been presented with anything that is evidence-based that causes any question about what happened. i mean, we've got a confession, it happened in plain sight and sondland's testimony yesterday was basically all the president's men. he said, you know, everyone was in the loop. and so i think it gets worse and worse for the president, frankly. and we'll see how this all ends up. obviously the process is still unfolding. but at this point, i think that, you know, we have been presented with a lot of information that tells us that this president has committed impeachable offenses and really shouldn't be in office. >> as you talk to your republican colleagues, the conventional wisdom is based on what we know he will be impeached in the house controlled by democrats, but it's not going anywhere in the senate because it's controlled by mitch mcconnell and republicans. do you share that sflu view? do you see any world where republicans watch this and say i'm going to vote to convict him if there's a trial in the senate? >> willie, you know, i'm clear i'd about it. i've been in the senate now almost three years and i've not seen much evidence of my colleagues across the aisle willingness to stand up and speak out. and those that have have not run for re-election or, you know, folks like the late great john mccain. but i do -- i will say this. i do believe that the elected republicans are one thing, but when we're talking about the american people including those who are registered as republicans, my appeal is to them. which is that i think we all know this is just not right. it's not right. and in so many ways our democracy is being challenged when we have this kind of abuse of power. and framers obviously imaged that there might be this moment, and there should be a check and balance. so my appeal really is to the american people, regardless of who they voted for in the last election, that we should all stand up and say it is not right and it has to end. >> koamala, it is claire. >> hi, claire. >> i thought you were terrific last night. >> thank you. >> i want to talk about one thing that was a phoning us last night, probably really for the first time. that was women, and particularly women of color and the struggles they face. >> yeah. >> you made a point about so many women are having children in their 30s and they have dual responsibility of caring for parents and caring for children, and that really resonated with women across this country. >> right. >> do you think we have done enough on the debate stage and in this campaign, talking about not lunch bucket joe, but rather 32-year-old single mom, you know, associates degree, still having to work two jobs to take care of her kids. >> that's right. >> talk a little bit about that and whether or not you think we are beginning to get parity on these women's issues that are so important to democrats, because it is women and particularly black women that elect presidents in the democratic party. >> we have not done enough, there's no question. women are now the majority population in america, and certainly it has not -- the issues that impact women and their families have not been the ma squo majority of subjects raised in these presidential debates. there's no question. everything from child care, i'm very glad it was brought up and the moderators last night are exceptional as professions and they were all women. there are so many issues about paid family leave. it is about equal pay. it is about what we need to do around sexual harassment in the workplace. just the topics go on and on. as you and i know every issue is a woman's issue and women's issues should be every woman's issue. women have experience around thinks issues that should be unique and should be discussed. there's more to be done. the equal pay issue, 1963 -- dies, think about this. the united states congress in 1963 acknowledged that women are not paid equal for equal work. let's close our eyes for a moment and imagine who was in the united states congress in 1963. >> wasn't folks that look like us. >> but here is the thing. those guys knew it was an issue. >> right, right. >> but yet fast forward to the year of 2019 and women are still played 80 cents on the dollar, black women 51 cents, latinos 54. we have not done enough. women don't want to be flattered. you know, i'm done with that. i think most women are. don't flatter us. don't say, hey, you are the reason that we win. oh, we're so proud we elected 100 women to the united states congress. yes, acknowledge that, but then what are you doing for women? that's part of the issue. so i appreciate your question and there's more to be done, both on the debate stage and in policy. >> hey, senator harris. i'm going to echo claire and say you had a strong debate. >> thank you. >> also, i want to commend you on lifting up black women when you had the stage and the moment and to talk about how black women are treated by the party and forgotten after they come out and vote. my question to you is that you are in georgia, ground zero for voter suppression. we all know democrats will not win in 2020 without overwhelming turnout from the black community. if we do win next year, it is going to be in spite of voter suppression. we see it across the country. >> that's right. >> what can democrats do to protect the vote? >> you're so right careen. 2013 the voting rights act was gutted and immediately thereafter two dozen states put in laws, including in the state of georgia, but famously in north carolina the supreme court said it was designed to suppress the black vote. we have seen the purging of voters in georgia. it is a very real issue. we have to deal with it in terms of the legislation to get passed, which i support and to put teeth back in the voting rights act. we need to litigate cases in the courtrooms around the country as relates to specific laws put in place, but we need to empower the community groups and nonprofit groups that are attempting to help people register to vote and get to the polls and to get around these obstructions because while we are late gatiitigating these ca elections are happening. we are going to have to really move around the obstacles to get people to vote. i believe we should have election day as a holiday. i believe we need to have automatic voter registration, but until we get those things we have to help the people on the ground getting folks to the poll, getting people registered to vote. my final point is this. in addition to the classic voter suppression we have to recognize russian interference and what it has meant in terms of the misinformation campaign that targeted black voters. we now have the classic voter suppression, and on top of that the contemporary or modern-day voter suppression which is foreign interference targeting black voters, to turn black voters off on the whole process and to basically stay at home. that's voter suppression. serving on the senate intelligence committee we published a report a few weeks ago. i urge everyone to read it to know what we're talking about and what we're dealing with. it is a real issue, a very big issue. >> senator kamala harris, thank you so much for being on this morning. >> thank you. thank you. >> we really appreciate it. to her point about russian interference, we just got the opening statement from dr. fiona hill, who will be testifying today before the house intel committee, and she is a member of the national security council, soviet, russian and european affairs. her opening statement is really a warning to congress. right now russia security services and their proxies have geared up to repeat their interference in the 2020 election. we are running out of time to stop them. >> you know what else she does? she tears to shreds in this opening statement the conspiracy theory that ukraine somehow meddled in the election. it is a theory pushed by donald trump and the white house. she says i refuse to be part of an effort to legitimize an alternative reality, that ukraine, not russia attacked us in 2016. >> this should be very interesting. two more candidates from last night's debate, mayor pete buttigieg and senator amy klobuchar join us. we are about an hour away from impeachment hearings and, again, we just received the opening statement from one of today's key witnesses, former top russia aide at the white house, dr. fiona hill. as willie mentions, she takes a torpedo to conspiracy theories that the republicans have been pushing. that is next on "morning joe." we are back in two minutes. lorss and are gluten & dairy free. they're all clean. all the time. even if sometimes we're not. sundown vitamins. all clean. all the time. wwithout it, i cannot write myl tremors wouldname.xtreme. i was diagnosed with parkinson's. i had to retire from law enforcement. it was devastating. one of my medications is three thousand dollars per month. prescription drugs do not work if you cannot afford them. for sixty years, aarp has been fighting for people like larry. and we won't stop. join us in fighting for what's right. this is a seminal moment in our investigation. the evidence you have brought forward is deeply significant and troubling. who had the decision to release the aid, it was one person, donald j. trump, president of the united states. now, my colleagues seem to think unless the president says the magic words that i hereby bribed the ukrainians that there's no evidence of bribery or other high crimes and misdemeanors. the question is what are we prepared to do about it. is there any accountability or are we forced to conclude that this is just now the world that we live in? getting caught is no defense. not to a violation of the constitution or to a violation of his oath of office, and it certainly doesn't give us a reason to ignore our own oath of office. >> there's a great line. >> yeah. >> getting caught is no defense. >> it is not. >> which is all the republicans could do yesterday after devastating testimony by ambassador sondland, was to come up with ridiculous defenses and talk about the consequences of donald trump being caught in the middle of this drug deal with rudy giuliani. >> and the testimony continues today. you just saw a live look inside the hearing room. dr. fiona hill will be testifying, and she is the -- opening statements have been released and we have some details for you. welcome back to "morning joe." it is thursday, november 21st. still with joe, willie and me, we have white house reporter for the associated press, jonathan lemire. former u.s. senator, now an misnews and msnbc political analyst claire mccaskey. national affairs analyst for nbc news and msnbc, john heilman. senior adviser at move on.org and an msnbc contributor, corrine jean-pierre. columnist and editor for "the washington post", david ignatius. mayor pete will be joining us in a moment, but as i just mentioned we received the opening statement from former white house official fiona hill. she will tell congress this morning that domestic partisan politics have driven a fictional alternative narrative about ukraine that is misguided and wrong. that according to her full opening statement obtained by nbc news. hill also will forcibly warn about the threat russia poses to american democracy and accuse lawmakers of echoing russian propaganda and using the impeachment proceedings that the ukraine attacked the election. based on questions and statements that i have heard, some of you on this committee appear to believe that russia and its security services did not conduct a campaign against our country, and that perhaps somehow for some reason ukraine did. this is a fictional narrative that has been perpetrated and prop gat propogated by the russian security services themselves. the unfortunate truth is that russia was the foreign power that systematically attacked our democratic institutions in 2016. she continues, the impact of the successful 2016 russian campaign remains evident today. our nation is being torn apart. right now russia's security services and their proxies have geared up to repeat their interference in the 2020 election. we are running out of time to stop them. in the course of this investigation, i would ask that you please not promote politically-driven falsehoods that so clearly advance russian interests. i refuse to be a part of an effort to legitimize an alternative narrative that the ukrainian government is a u.s. adversary and that ukraine, not russia, attacked us in 2016. >> david ignatius, high drama obviously coming to the hill again, coming to the impeachment inquiry again. fiona hill is going to actually be telling the truth to some of these republicans. there have been some republicans who have admitted that the russians may have tried to interfere, but for the most part, the jim jordans and now the elise stefaniks, there are a lot of people that are following the president down the rat hole of conspiracy theories and trying to pin vladimir putin's operation on ukraine. fiona hill obviously is going to have none of it today. >> joe, based on the opening statement that mika just summarized, this is going to be another explosive day. fiona hill is going to go right at the arguments that many of the republicans on the committee have been making and she is going to say in effect, you are being used by russia. you are advancing arguments that russia is making in an attempt to waeeaken the united states. fiona hill is a serious russia expert. she has been doing this for decades. she is going to speak with that authority. in my quick reading of her opening statement she is going to drop a bombshell, which is to say that the idea that it was ukraine that was the architect of the 2016 interference in the u.s. presidential election was planted by russian intelligence, it is a line -- i have heard that from sources in the last week or so. she is going to say it now in public. i hope there's a lot of questioning about it because it is a very explosive charge, that the line the republicans have been peddling, that president trump was demanding be investigated, may have begun with deliberate russian intelligence manipulation in planting this idea. >> remember, that conspiracy theory is the one the president directly references in the july 25 phone call to president zelensky, this crowdstrike idea that somehow it was ukraine and not russia that meddled in the direction. so, claire, republicans don't like hearsay, so here is a firsthand witness in fiona hill that was in the meetings that john bolton allegedly called a drug deal, the two white house meetings on july 10th, where ambassador sondland says to the ukrainians, this for that, this for that. a second meeting down stair in the white house. she was there in the room, she has testified privately. she knows the details and has firsthand accounts of what happened and what she witnessed in the rooms. >> she will be a strong fact witness. i mean she has a reputation, you know, for not suffering fools. so i think she's not going to be partisan. she is going to be even, but she is going to be very strong. you know, let's remember here, there was something that happened between the first phone call with zelensky when trump said, congratulations, we will have a white house meeting, and when he called off the trip to the inaugural. what happened was a phone call with putin. that's what happened. all of the republicans saying, oh, well, trump, you know, was being maligned by ukraine during the election, excuse me. the reason you craukrainians we saying they didn't like donald trump was because donald trump said in the campaign we should give crimea to russia. what was ukraine supposed to say? that's a good idea. let's just give our territory to russia. let's just destroy our some sovereigty. i think her getting in their face about the bogus conspiracy theory that ukraine was involved in this combined with her strong factual account of what was going on in the meetings will make it as big a day as yesterday. >> of course, they were changing their platform at the republican convention. >> exactly. >> john heilman, you have the president who has been running around, again, a puppet of vladimir putin, a parrot of vladimir putin when he says to his aides, well, ukraine is not a real country. he is propagating -- actually, the number one propaganda aim of vladimir putin. >> right. >> that is with his constant attacks on university crakraine. and this republican party that so proudly stood up to soviet gre aggression, this rep party are now parroting vladimir putin's talking point. >> lieutenant colonel vindman in his testimony a couple of days ago raised -- passingly raised this point. he was asked a couple of times by democratic members of the committee about ukraine was the real aggressor, the real ones who infiltrated our election, was it true or not. vindman said, no, there's no evidence of that whatsoever, the intelligence community is unanimous in saying that russia is the one that intervened. again he said passingly this narrative is that ukraine was, in fact, the perpetrator, is a russian narrative. now we have fiona hill coming in and seeming to want to make it front and center. in her testimony she says i have two things i want to tell you. i'm here to take questions, but two things i want to focus on is this is my background, let me tell you about who i am, and second i want to focus on this. devin nunes, ranking member on this committee, is a believer -- at least ostensibly -- in this view as much as donald trump. >> what, you mean putin's view? >> the russian view. >> is he really going to be promoting vladimir putin's view? >> he has been, not only will he today -- >> when he is confronted with the facts, how far will he go in defending an ex-kgb agent who kills political opponents and who kills journalists? how far will devin nunes go as putin's patsy? >> oh, that's good. putin's patsy. >> there you go, hshlt. >> right up there with #mitch. >> russian intervenes in the election to help donald trump. they need to point the finger someplace else, so they point at ukraine. donald trump embraces the view because he doesn't want to acknowledge that russia helped him win the election in 2016. what those guys are doing is obvious. why devin nunes and the republicans on this committee has adopted this point of view too is, as always, the question, why do they want ton on the train. i think the most delightful potential prospect is to make this question front and center. will fiona hill get into this with devin nunes? will there be an engagement on this question in which she calls bs on devin nunes. >> looks like it. >> and by extension all of the republicans who embraced this point of view. >> the question today is going to be -- >> that the question. >> -- are they going to be on the side of vladimir putin or are they going to be on the side not only of fiona hill, but every intel chief that donald trump himself appointed? nominated, got appointed. jonathan lemire, whether it is the fbi director, whether it is the cia director, the nbi, acting nbi, whether it is military intelligence, it is u.s. military, everybody has told donald trump the same thing. whether it is department of hhs, everybody has told donald trump the same thing. the number one threat to the united states of america right now is not thermonuclear war from north korea, but the fact that russia is meddling in america's democracy. those are trump's intel chiefs. so why does donald trump and devin nunes and jim jordan, why do they embrace an ex-kgb agent instead of believing the people that are running donald trump's own intel agencies? >> let's remember that the president has been asked several times, including in heel sifrls standing next to putin, who he believed. and he would not side with the u.s. government over putin. in this matter you know who offered a preview of fiona hill's testimony? vladimir putin. he spoke yesterday saying, thank god no one is accusing us of interfering in u.s. elections anymore, now they're accusing ukraine. >> there you go. >> wow. thank you, devin nunes. >> there you go. start right there. >> let's bring in mayor pete buttigieg. we have been talking about fiona hill and what we saw yesterday and the russian interference in the election and republican's refusing to stand up to vladimir putin. what are some of the things you would do to protect the united states in a way that devin nunes, jim jordan and other republicans refuse to do? >> looking at these proceedings you have to wonder what, if anything, could shock these congressional republicans into being reunited with their sense of conscience and a desire to protect this country. this country is under attack right now, and our democracy is the most important and precious thing that we have, which is exactly why the russians realized that in targeting that they could be targeting such a core and vulnerable part of american strength. now, there needs to be a president who, first of all, acknowledges the russian interference and, secondly, is prepared to make sure that there are real consequences to it so that when the russians are making their strategic decisions they know not to even go there. we can use the diplomatic, economic, cyber information security and other elements of the u.s. national security tool kit to create enough of a deterrence that it is just not even worth bothering trying to mess with our elections. that's the message that i would send and that the next president must send in order to make sure that they don't take a whack at us or motivate other foreign adversaries to take a whack at our democracy every single time there's an election day. >> what do you think the motivation is, mayor pete, behind the republicans, especially on the intel committee, and their approach to these diplomats, these public servants? what can be said to compel them to understand facts versus conspiracy theories and other things they're using to protect president trump? what would you do differently? >> it just seems that they've gone off the cliff. it is party over country. >> absolutely. >> even when you have non-partisan civil servants and, for that matter, republican appointees speaking out, saying that this is a problem, saying what clearly happened and calling for accountability for an abuse of power, it seems that these congressional republicans cannot get their head out of the moment of loyalty to the party and are unaware of just how harshly they're going to be judged by history, not i think in the far-off distant future by around the corner. anyone who is part of those hearings for the rest of their careers and lives will be remembered for whether they stood up and did the right thing. >> good morning, mayor buttigieg. it is willie geist. good to see you this morning. >> good morning. >> your health care plan is medicare for all who want it. elizabeth warren and bernie sanders is just straight-up medicare for all, including taking away private insurance from more than 160 million people. let me ask you point-blank. do you believe a candidate that runs on medicare for all can win a general election in this country? >> certainly it would be a tough sell because the american people want that choice. by the way, that's not just general election voters as we make sure we reach out to moderates and try to pull republicans across the aisle, but also democratic voters. democrats at well sitting at home, making health care decisions for our families, don't want to have that option taken off the table. the whole idea of medicare for all who want it is we create that public alternative and let you decide. if enough people decide it is the right answer, eventually it becomes medicare for all, but there's some humility in the approach here because we recognize instead of washington deciding whether and when people should switch, we let people make that decision for themselves. >> as you know -- >> look, we have to make sure -- go ahead. >> you live in the state of indiana. a lot of people who believe taking away private health insurance from unions, rust belt states, the kind of places you all need to win back is a poison pill and there's no way to beat donald trump on that policy. do you agree with that? >> yes, you have a lot of union members who negotiated a good plan and, by the way, often made concessions on wages to get a good health care plan. you have millions of seniors on medicare advantage plans. we have to make sure to answer the central question on the mind of any voter sizing up a candidate which is, how is my life going to be different if you become president versus the alternative. if somebody feels like their choice is going to be taken away, that's a tough thing to answer for. it also speaks, i think, to a broader question and a broader challenge, which is how do we make sure that our campaigns are as inclusive as possible? my campaign is about inclusion. i'm reaching out to progressives. i am reaching out to mad ratode but i know there are a lot of what i like to call future former republicans out there. they're coming to my events, talking about how they've not supported a democrat before but they're looking at things like the circus going on in washington and what is going on in this white house and saying, you know, i can't support that. they're looking for an alternative. they know they're not going the agree with me on every issue, but they also know that they cannot stand by what the republican party has become. the message has to go out to these voters that you belong, that you are welcome in this coalition that we're building. >> mayor pete, this is carine. you have had a massive surge, and in talking to people that i know in iowa, the surge matches your events. my question is after new hampshire and iowa the demographics change greatly. in nevada you have the large latino population, south carolina a large black population. what are you going to do to expand your base? >> well, this isn't just a question of political strategy to me. this is just personally important as somebody whose campaign revolves around the idea of belonging and inclusion, to reach out to americans of every background. the early states of south carolina and nevada present wonderful opportunities to engage black and latino voters in particular. you are going to see us stepping up our investments in those states, continuing to reach out. we have got a lot of outreach and investment coming up in south carolina. even here today in atlanta i will be visiting with the national action network, and later on joining fair fight, stacey abrams efforts to push back on voter suppression. the voter suppression of african-americans likely is responsible for stacey abrams not being the governor here in georgia, but also it is worth pointing out when the black vote or other minority votes are suppressed that makes the entire country worse off because there are worse decisions, decisions coming out of elections that do not reflect the totality of our voters, and the result is policies that don't speak to all of us. >> john heilman. >> hey, pete, it is heilman. i'm curious, you are in a position where people are looking at you like you could be the nominee. you had a flash of prominence earlier this year that introduced you to a lot of people, but now you are getting the hard look from voters saying, oh, this guy is leading in iowa, he might be leading in new hampshire, we have to give him a hard look. one of the things a lot of voters heard last night that i know surprised them, talking about average voters, this is a guy who was elected mayor of south bend with 11,000 votes. that's new information to people, and i think it is making some voters who are giving you, like i say, the first hard look wonder whether a guy whose political success to date amounted to winning small-scale elections, where that's the kind of guy they can put their trust in to be able to win a big national election against donald trump when the stakes are so high. what do you say to a voter like that that says, you know, pete, you are super promising, but 11,000 votes, i think it might be a little green for what we need in 2020? >> well, it depends whether you think washington experience is the only kind of experience that matters. the work that we're doing on the ground, that mayors of cities of any size are responsible for, everything from emergency management to economic growth, this is the kind of attitude of rolling up your sleeves and getting things done that i think we need more of in washington. i also think that as the campaign unfolds, look, the best way to demonstrate you can win an election is to win an election. you know, this thing started with three people and some folding chairs in an office in south bend at the beginning of this year, and now we have built a movement that's put us in the top tier of contenders for the american presidency. that in itself is part of how you demonstrate what you are capable of, and we will continue to draw people into this movement and coalition and showing, not telling, what kind of politics i practice and why it is the right response to the moment we are living in under trump and trumpism. >> mayor pete buttigieg, thank you so much for being with us. >> thank you. >> we really appreciate it. >> great to have you on. >> also a pleasure. thank you. >> good luck out there. so, claire, we -- the mayor had to move on to another event, but i'm curious. what were your thoughts about how he performed last night, and do you think -- like, for instance, what willie brought, the 11,000 votes, that was for me one of the moments where you are like, what, oh, wow, okay. it is like when joe biden had his one good comeback when he talked about tom steyer producing more coal, burning more coal than all of the united kingdom. i was like, really? that's a gee-whiz stat for you. >> yeah. i almost wish in a way we could have seen mayor pete respond to more incoming. i think he's very talented at deflecting and addressing criticisms. he had a little bit and i thought he did well when he got those, but, you know, we can compare and con tratrast. yeah, 11,000 votes as a mayor, but -- >> we are watching dr. fiona hill enter, i want to let our viewers now as you pick up, claire. >> yeah, i think the depth and breadth of his experience in the military, as a small town mayor, that's the kind of stuff that people don't like washington, joe. i know it is a news flash, i know you get this and a lot of people get this, but washington is a terrible place to be from right now for most voters. the fact that he's really one of the few true outsiders in the race, he can work to advantage as long as he leans heavily on his military experience and, frankly, his intellect and his -- you know, his degrees, his multi-lingual. this is a really substantive guy. >> yes. >> now that he is a small town mayor, but i'm not sure it doesn't work. >> i think the military training makes a difference. willie, as you know, a lot of these young men and women that go over there are actually put in charge of towns. >> yes. >> that have, you know, they've got to worry about things like plumbing, sewage. they've got to worry about things like, you know, getting food and water. >> yes. >> -- to the residents in war-torn areas. so that experience really does matter. i will say though there was -- i will say there was one problem last night. i wish we had a little more time i would like to have asked him about in the second round of questions, where he talked about we have 100 years of experience up here in washington and look how badly washington has acted. i understand that sells well on the campaign trail, but i look forward to the candidate that says, yes, not only do i know washington, i know how to make washington work because i've been studying it for most of my life or i have been working there for most of my life. when you start going, well, yeah, but experience is bad, 100 years of persons, that is sort of donald trump speak. that is brexit speak. so look what experts have gotten us. >> yes, i do think in some ways donald trump becoming president threw out the experience question. if donald trump can become president by being a game show host, why not mayor pete as well? but there is a distinction between mayor pete and donald trump obviously, and that is that pete buttigieg is engaged in the issues, he is studied in the issues. >> yes, he has written a constitution. >> yes, things like that. >> and he understands the constitution. >> yes. >> and he is gifted intellectually. >> he is gifted. >> remarkable. >> and i think his military service helps him great deal. you know, he flipped tulsi gabbard away when she came at him about wanting to invade mexico. there were a couple of moments, but i think we thought because of where he sits in the polls in iowa and new hampshire that he would have more incoming. >> he certainly got lucky. i actually think and it goes into a little bit about what you were saying, is that his weak spot, which is what i was trying to ask him, is with black south koreas. he is not connecting with black voters. i was hoping he would have given me a better answer. to your point some older black voters i speak to, it is the lack of experience that they have a problem with. yes, they appreciate that he was a veteran. we have to respect that and honor that, but they think 37 years old, 120,000 constituents in his -- in south bend as mayor, that is something that he has to get over and he has to find a way, he has to find a way to connect with black voters. because after iowa and new hampshire we know it gets much more diverse. >> and he is zeroing out among black voters in south carolina. >> yes, zero. >> and other areas. mika, we all saw it, 2007, older black voters are very pragmatic. they don't want to support somebody to make a statement. they want to support somebody who can win. we had perfect test case in barack obama. oh, great, great. we have a black guy who is running. that's just awesome. we're going to support hillary clinton. remember, you wept ont out and talked to michelle obama and she was so frustrated. they were both frustrated. >> but look what happened. >> the second they figured out that barack obama had a shot of winning, it made all of the difference in the world and he got that support. >> and that's exactly right. i really do think this is the year that we have got to have a really gut check moment about whether or not iowa and new hampshire should be first. >> come on. >> i agree. totally agree. >> this is not our party. >> for republicans, yes. not for democrats. >> we have to change the order. >> it is ridiculous. >> -- so that the first two states are more diverse. >> yes. >> that's not who we are. frankly, you want to talk about not recognizing the brack voter, having a substantial amount of voters of color, wait until third or fourth in line to weigh this is not right. >> david holmes is now arriving at the capital. >> the staffer. >> he also will be testifying today in the impeachment inquiry. >> i am not going to want to be anywhere near claire mccaskill on the first round in february in iowa because they will be coming after you. >> i can say it, the candidates can't because everybody in iowa would be furious. >> now that you said that, claire, next time i'm with you in des moines, they will be coming at you with pitchfork goes. >> for the republican party, it lines up with the republican party demographically but south carolina lines up best with the democratic party. >> i have always thought -- >> that's true. >> if you could be god -- >> -- or iowa -- >> -- and design the system, and you would take the four early states and rotate them so a different state would start every four years, iowa would go first one year, nevada would go first next cycle, south carolina, or in whatever order, but you would get a rotation. >> iowa first is fine if south carolina is second. new hampshire first is fine if south carolina is second. >> it is the two all-white states at the top. >> but to have two all-white states -- >> i agree. >> -- start the democratic primary process is ridiculous. >> we need to sneak in a break as we watch david holmes getting closer and closer to the hearing room. he is, of course, the staffer who overheard the phone call when the president called gordon sondland and was loudly talking on a cellphone. >> in a restaurant. >> and in a restaurant, was it -- >> it was on a mobile phone. >> we're less than an hour away. >> sondland also said, we also talked on unsecured phone lines. >> terrific. another explosive day of testimony in the kbeerimpeachme hearings. nbc news has learned that senator mitt romney will be meeting with the president over lunch. you are watching "morning joe." we will be right back. we will be right back. we made usaa insurance for members like martin. an air force veteran made of doing what's right, not what's easy. so when a hailstorm hit, usaa reached out before he could even inspect the damage. that's how you do it right. usaa insurance is made just the way martin's family needs it - with hassle-free claims, he got paid before his neighbor even got started. because doing right by our 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narrative about ukraine that is misguided and wrong. quote, based on questions and statements i have heard some of you on this committee appear to believe that russia and its security services did not conduct a campaign against our country and that perhaps, somehow, for some reason, ukraine did. this is a fictional narrative that has been perpetrated and propagated by the russian security services themselves. the unfortunate truth is that russia was the party that attacks in 2016. she goes on, i refuse to be part of an effort to legitimize an alternative narrative that the ukrainian government is a u.s. adversary and that ukraine, not russia, attacked us in 2016. >> backdrop, you have donald trump tweeting while borrowing from -- i think it was jaba the hut calling the chairman of the intel community human scum. >> my god. >> that's right. so human scum. we can call him jaba the trump, is now actually calling the chairman of the intel committee, quote, human scum. he is completely, he has completely lost it. >> i think we are up to ten tweets in the last hour from the president, most of them centered on the impeachment hearings, criticizing schiff, suggesting the republicans are holding strong and soon the proceedings will be on our turf which we assume means the senate. again, he went after robert mueller, suggested they didn't find anything there in that, quote, witch hunt, it is the democrats' latest attempt. it goes to show the lack of response from the white house. they've been caught off guard day after day in the hearings. there's been a bombshell, nearly every witness delivered some sort of bombshell they've been ill-prepared to handle when their war room is simply the president and his thumbs on the twitter app. >> no doubt. let's bring in presidential candidate senator amy klobuchar of minnesota. thank you for being with us. >> thanks, joe. no mean tweets from me. >> that's right. we will talk about the debate in a minute. first, i'm just curious what your response is to what fiona hill is talking about this morning and how she is going to actually lay into republican members who are following a conspiracy conspiracy theory? >> i love this one. i think claire was point on when she said that she is not going to mince words. she is an expert. she has been the adviser to the president in the white house on these issues, and it is consistent with all of the president's men, all of the president's intelligence aides and heads, everyone from christopher wray to former intelligence director coates, all have said russia is not just bold but getting bolder, they're continuing to do this. not just the social media propaganda, but there are attempts to hack into the election equipment of 50 states. we know this. all of this other stuff is just misinformation sent out -- and i love the fact she said that this is what the russians want. the white house knows this. the president wants this. this is a shield of a defense for him as opposed to the real stuff which is that he was trying to get dirt on a political opponent. >> claire. >> so, amy, i thought you did great last night, although i have one big bone to pick with you, and that is when you keep saying over and over again that you raised the most money from your ex-boyfriends in your senate run in 2006. you know i think i raised more money from my ex-boyfriends than you did. so moving past that -- >> okay, but to really do that it would require us to list them which we don't want to do right now on tv. >> correct. i want to talk about the fact we talk about women's reproductive freedom last night. why don't you talk about why you think it is important that the democrats begin to focus on codifying roe v. wade? what is going on around this country? why is it something that deserves this kind of time in our debate? >> this is a core issue for women of this country. it was pointed out last night men as well. we have a president that basically predicted he was going to do this. actually, on msnbc in an interview during the presidential campaign with chris matthews, he implied that he thought women should go to jail. then they had to dial it back and his people said, no, he meant doctors should go to jail for performing abortions. guess what, this is what these laws say. we have alabama now, 99 years, attaches a penalty. i think it is a little hard to talk on the debate stage about this only because there's a lot of agreement, but we must keep focusing on it because it is going to be a big issue against donald trump. he is so far out there when it comes to the people of this country when over 70% want to codify roe v. wade and over 90% believe that women should have access to contraception. meanwhile, he is off to defunding planned patient hood. >> david ignatius. >> senator, the reviews in "the washington post" and other places are that you had a good night last night. i want to ask you the obvious question. how do you move forward in your campaign and convince more people that you are a person that can beat donald trump? >> you and i have talked about this, david, the importance of the heartland. i am the one that hasn't just talked the talk. i was listening to mayor pete, who i have a lot of respect for and made very clear that i think that he is qualified to run for president, but he said earlier the best way you can show you can win an election is to win an election. i am the one that has brought in not just fired up blue clikts and o districts and getting the highest turnout time and time again, but also suburban and rural voters. democrats want to win. the message out of kentucky and virginia is there's a lot of people that want to win with us and we better not screw this up. that's my message out there. we have, in fact, doubled our iowa office, doubled our staff, opening new offices in new hampshire and in south carolina and nevada. so i am on the up, and i got a chance last night to make that argument, about the difference between me and the mayor who i have so much respect for, but also -- >> right. >> -- and i wish we could do more of this and will in los angeles, the clear difference between me and senator sanders and warren. i just don't think -- >> jonathan lemire. >> i want to follow up on the line with mayor buttigieg and the idea that you said women are held to a difficult and higher standard. in a powerful woman last night you said we could list our favorite female presidents and of course there have not been any. i want to ask you broadly about that idea. how could that hurt you in the general election? how could the idea that you said women being held to a higher standard hurt you and the women contenders when we move to the final field next year? >> this is on us. the fact we have so many women on the stage is going to change the world, i believe that. when you look at the past every single time there's been problems for women and voters thinking that they can actually do their job. i remember barbara mccollsky used to say, you want to know what a senator looks like, you're looking at it. one of the points i wanted to make last night is not, oh, vote for me because i'm a woman. i never made that arkment in one race that i have run. i have run on my merit. i want to step back and say, you know what, maybe it is not going to be the loudest voice in the road, maybe it is not going to be the tallest person or the skinniest person. maybe we need to think of what a president should be, and that is someone who is competent, who gets things done, who tells the truth, someone who governs with not just their head but their heart. mostly right now this year someone that cannot just win by a victory at 4:00 in the morning but can win big and bring the senate seats with us. >> senator amy klobuchar, thank you for okay. great to have you. >> okay. thank you, mika. >> thank you. a quick final break of the morning. we are moments away from what is expected to be another dramatic impeachment hearing. one thing we will be watching is how republicans will respond when fiona hill accuses some of them of echoing russian propaganda. plus, our legal panelist standipanelists standing by. they are at the bar right now but they will come in here and help us out. t they will come ind help us out. there's a company that's talked to even more real people than me: jd power. 448,134 to be exact. they answered 410 questions in 8 categories about vehicle quality. and when they were done, chevy earned more j.d. power quality awards across cars, trucks and suvs than any other brand over the last four years. so on behalf of chevrolet, i want to say "thank you, real people." you're welcome. we're gonna need a bigger room. non-gmo, made with naturally sundown vitamins are all sourced colors and flavors and are gluten & dairy free. they're all clean. all the time. even if sometimes we're not. sundown vitamins. all clean. all the time. investment opportunities beyfirsthand, like biotech.ne because your investments deserve the full story. t. rowe price invest with confidence. happy veterans day. happy veterans day. happy veterans day. happy veterans day. student veterans of america champions those who have served and also prepares them for their next chapter in life. please take a moment this this veterans day to remember service members, who put their education and careers on-hold to give back to all of us. we thank you. feliz día de servicio. happy veterans day. happy veterans day. please visit studentveterans.org it would be the equivalent of people pulling guns, robbing a bank and 35 police officers storming in and chief wigham going -- >> take him aways, guys. >> what did you say, chief? >> you're busted, boys. >> sondland -- >> i didn't realize that aid was tied, the burisma in 2016 piece was much earlier. >> oh, just burisma, i didn't know that it was -- burisma -- i didn't know anything about that. >> you just gave me a report about it i think a whistle-blower complaint, none of which i have seen. >> so you just gave me a report about something. >> it doesn't even make sense. >> that you -- haven't seen. tom nichols, a report that he was on the telephone call. >> you were on the call, dude. >> jim jordan would say -- >> they got the call july 25th. they got the meeting not in the white house but in new york on september 25th. they got the money on september 11th. when did the meeting happen again? >> it never did. >> excuse me. what are you doing -- what did you do? did you spend it on a boat? excuse me. sondland goes, what? >> you made him southern. >> no, no, it was good. i liked it. keep going. >> he rolled up his sleeve. tell me about the meeting. but you get the idea. >> my gosh, that was good. >> the idea -- >> nice work, guys. >> i had to give you a few notes on your performance. >> i know. i'm very exhausted looking at it. >> we get the point. >> they're watching it for three hours. my god. >> it is a long show. >> seriously, it was the stupid my yesterday of the republicans saying, oh, well, no crime was committed because he got caught. there was no meeting, no -- you know, the weapons were released. every single -- it was just -- it was a message for the ignorant who obviously didn't know the facts of this case. >> yeah. i mean if you believe that the message donald trump wrote down on a piece of paper in magic marker yesterday and waved before the press and recited where he said, i want nothing, i want nothing, i want no quid pro quo, if you believe it gets him off the hook you have to ignore the fact that the ig report came to the house intel committee that same day so he was scrambling to cover, and you have to ignore the months of interviews and phone calls and meetings that took place that we know about that took place before that. let's bring in former acting u.s. solicitor general, now an msnbc legal contributor, kneel catiel, and mimi rocha, with pace school of law. msnbc chief legal correspondent host of the beat. c chief legal host of the beat presidency at the vanderbilt dav david ignatius, let's start the stage for what we're about to see in nine or ten minutes from now. dr. fiona hill will be sitting down. what should we expect from her and knowing she had a front row seatt to what john bolton call the drug deal meetings in the white house. >> fiona hill will introduce herself as a russia expert with decades of experience. she grew up in britain. she is a strong, compelling witness. she will make an explosive presentation i think saying the theory that devin nunes, what they have been making, the real architects of interference in the 2016 election were not russians and they were ukrainians, she will say that is a fictional creation of the russian intelligence informs. in other words that nunes and company have fallen for a russian ploy if is very damaging and we'll have a very lively debate as she discusses that with republicans. >> made more damaging that every intell chief agrees with fiona hill. i have been around capitol hill and washington for awhile now. i have been around to see how badly chairman and chair women here on oning these hearings. i'm really shocked day after day there are these rolling revelations, the narrative arch has been breathtaking. >> i completely agree. first, i'm afraid you're going to imitate me, but it is streamlined, fast, and so much information is getting out. to think this didn't exist two months ago. and now we have witness after witness. but i would push back a little on the republican side. the arguments for the republicans house intelligence committee. these are not lawyers, these are elected representatives and they're seeing nonsense in a collapse -- >> there is only one argument they could make, which is he did it it is not impeachable and anyone with half a brain knew that from the beginning. we are learning every day what we knew when we read the n non-transcript a month and a half ago. they said it is perfect and beautiful, it is obviously not, sondland testifies yesterday it was a quid pro quo and the president says oh, he cleared me. what is it going to take to get the republicans to at least kept the facts that are in front of us. and if they don't, and if others don't come forward, if the secretary of state does not come forward, no one has been able to answer what happens if the white house just says no and republicans just say no, we don't see it. what happens. >> let's be clear if this were a jury trial, i know it's not, but i want to use the analogy for just a second. juries listen to evidence, they listen to evidence, a jury would come back with a guilty verdict on this case in an hour. the common sense facts are staring us in the face. i don't know if they will ever -- they don't that want. and what we're unleashing here by doing that, they have to look at what that means. what they're unleashing here by doing that is a president that can withhold congressionally approved aid for any made up reason. that is why fiona hill is so important. saying this is corruption, fighting corruption, it is not just words. in reality he is buying into a russian propaganda talking point. it's not just the republicans coming up with russian propaganda talkingus points. >> i see that, you see that, ari probably sees that but what gets the republicans to see the same thing. >> nothing. and i would disagree, this is for americans to see what is going on. trying to dy is predict how this will end, willy, buten we don't know. we have to actually sit back and let all of the evidence come out. and by the way, i don't think then' jury would decide quickly. i think it would be a direct verdict. they have provided no evidence. >> we have again in dr. fiona hill a career diplomat. like bill taylor and the other witnesses we have seen here. but she has a specific argument which is to quake into that room and tear to shreds the conspiracy theoer thitheory tha trump spoke about that it was ukraine, not russia, that interfered in the election. she says i refuse to be part of an effort to legitimate an alternate narrative. >> yeah, this comes from people who are nonpartisan long time u.s. diplomats guiding the congress to understand that if we're at cyber war with someone to know who is and who isn't. the other thing worth keeping in mind, that uncorked so much information this week, why are we back at watergate land. the cheeps is exposed. the plotting for the highest levels of government now exposed under oath by a person that remains employed by president trump to represent donald trump and the united states around the world. mr. sondland said quid pro quo,o a bribery plot to take out joe biden, and he still works for donald trump, the united states government, and the president. that is the ultimate endorsement of whatul he did. >> right. >> so that should really concern people, that is number one in the watergate turf, and when you look at all of this you have a bribery plot exposed. it was a scorching round of testimony from sondland, but what do you do about it when the cheating is exposed. >> and john meachum, they retwitted ark buckwald wrote responses for nixonites at a party, one, everybody does it, and then the press is blowing up the whole thing. the democrats are sore because they lost the election. he goes on to give about 35 reasons 3 for backing nixon. it sounds like what donald trump saysli every day. >> and because the facts are against him he has to fight the impression that the t facts are making. john adams said that facts are stubborn things. sondland was fascinating. i think you're right about the way theu' hearings have unfolde. we should not be grading this as an exercise, but politics about the stage, and the covenant between them. the questionen to ask the republican t senators, mainly, do you want to be this -- is this, standing by this guy who hijacked your party, and turned it into a jonestown like political consult, and that is a excessive thing but -- >> the answer is yes. they are making that choice. you don't have a war room. you can't tell the president what he needs to do to get through this with the fewest political scars. mick

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