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down to the deadline pretty fast to next week but does it sound like president obama and speaker john boehner are ready to sing yet. >> we can't make extortion part of routine for the democracy. >> what the president said today if there is uncondition l surrenderer he'll talk to us. that's not the way it works. >> tonight i'll talk to the real people who are paying the pretty awful price for that lack of work. two congresswoman go head-to-head on capitol hill. plus my power panel of experts and i mean surging power tonight, josh bower, kelly an and more and democrats may not be talking yet but we most certainly are. hopefully, we can get answers before the end of the show. begin with the breaking news. a tiny morse l of hope slithered it's way into washington d.c. is it hope? can i dare to dream? >> you can dare to dream all you want but i don't want you to have the hopes crushed as soon as you get them up, piers, because we seen movies like this before in washington. here is what i'm hearing from sen senor republicans in the house, what they heard from the president today, maybe what they wanted to hear or i think they hear from the president today which was perhaps an opening to pass a or agree to a short-term increase in the debt ceiling, which could allow both sides time, maybe four to six weeks to talk about the issues, some issues relating to the debt and deficit would be doable from the perspective of senior republicans. the thing that is so incredible is that it seems pretty clear that they want to get that message out through us. they are not talking to the white house. there is no negotiation because as we've heard the president say now probably a million times, he's not going to negotiate this. so we're in this weird situation where in order for the president and the white house to keep that promise, the president is keeping his options open in press conferences about a potential short-term deal and house republicans, at least sources i'm talking to are saying well, we would be open to that so that's how discussions are going on now. we don't know exactly what could be doable when we look at the specifics of it because they are not talking to one another. >> right, how does this debt ceiling deal, if it is four to six weeks, how does that impact on the shutdown? does that automatically release the shutdown? does the government reopen pending those deliberations? >> you know, because they are not speaking to one another, it's a very hard question to answer. you would think that if they do sort of have a temporary respite and make sure the government would open along with that but again, it's hard to know. what is so interesting is that piers, republican sources, or at least one i talked to said that he knows that -- of specific conversations that senior house republicans have had with ceos from across the country put up to calling them by senior white house officials to say lots of things but mostly what can we do here on the debt ceiling, why is that? because the white house needs to stick to their promise, not to negotiate. >> absolutely -- sorry, but it is absolutely pathetic, isn't it, when you hear things like that. like the stuff you did no sixth -- i used to. i may have been too old then. dana bash, thank you as always, your long suffering, a brilliant job. thank you for joining me again tonight. what will it take to turn this glimmer of hope, if it is that, into a deal? joining me, debbie, i know you like the guy, but i listened at the president today for 19 minutes giving a press conference which he refused to talk to television journalist and went on and on -- one of the longest drones i think i ever listened to, now the end of it, nothing. nothing actually happened. nothing was achieved. all he did was inform us why nothing is happening and he could have used that time to me if he sat in a room with john boehner until they got an agreement. what is the matter with them? >> there is absolutely nothing the matter with president obama on the contrary what is going on here is that republicans are dug in so far that they practically got the dirt over the tops of their heads and someone rash l needs to throw them a cover -- >> 10% more americans blame the republicans and yes, some of the republicans like ted cruz have been trying to up end obama care and so on but there comes a point if you're the president of the united states and it's your government that shuts down, you got to be the big guy. get in the room and do business. >> yes, he does and he's willing to do that but not as he said with a gun to our heads, not where the republicans are saying that we must in order to reopen the government, we must have changes to obama care, that we have to do it their way and that the only way the government is going to open is if we hold the economy hostage and change the affordable care act, which is law for three years and again -- >> okay. >> and upheld by the supreme court and election held. it's simple. we need to vote on a clean spending resolution to reopen the government and pay the nation's bills and then yes, we should sit down and there are a myriad of things to negotiate over to discuss. >> okay. >> we have entitlement -- >> you're turning into president obama with his monologue so let me cut you off. >> sure. >> marsha blackburn, i mean, all this is true depending who you talk to on both sides. personally i blame the republicans more than the democra democrats. >> i would expect you to. >> like most of the americans, i blame both sides. >> that's right. >> i want to see business done. >> you're exactly right. they should be blaming both sides. and i can tell you what, pierce, if it were up to debbie and i, you would see us sit down as a table and work something out. >> there is no question. >> she and i would agree about that. >> we already talked about that. >> we can get it done. >> here is where we -- here is what we have done. we have offered and continued to offer -- we have sent four different crs, a budget, 12 different funding bills -- >> oh, come on, that's simply not true. >> we have had 200 democrats in the house vote with us on different funding measures, prie piers, we sent to the senate. we have a president obama who says he doesn't want to negotiate with us. now, we have never had a president not negotiate a debt ceiling deal. we know that our nation cannot continue to borrow $2 billion a day, we ask them, join us at the table, work with us, we need to work to a solution that is going to be fair for the american taxpayer and is going to be respectful -- >> i want to try and keep the speeches to a minimum. >> okay. >> let me go back to debbie. all right, let's get to the bigger picture here. the shutdown is very annoying and we'll see as i speak to people at the moment, very harrowing for many americans but let's put that to one side for a moment because the much bigger problem looming is the debt ceiling issue. >> absolutely. >> if that was not to go the right way and there was no deal done would be catastrophes. the republicans know they can't win on the shutdown argument, what they want to do is wrap it around the grand bargain on the debt ceiling not with standing the irritation of the shutdown, debbie, do you think that may be the sensible way to resolve it? get it done in one go? >> i think we would be thrilled to get it all done at once. we have to make sure no question that we don't jeopardize the full faith and credit of the united states and pay the nation's bills. we have to make sure we do that not tieing extraneous settled matters like the affordable care act to pay the nation's bills. like i said many times, if we can agree to have the government reopened which the republicans shut down with holding obama care as ransom and agree that we can't jeopardize the full faith and credit of the united states and work towards that separate and apart from dealing with the inevitable kinks that will arise as obama care is implemented and everyone should have access to a quality affordable health care -- >> you two were posting to me a few minutes ago, you would do a deal together so marsha, that's the opening gambit from debbie. go back and let's do a deal here. >> i will. i will. what you have to realize is these extraneous matters that are a part of a budget, they are line items in a budget and if you're going to look at a budget at appropriations, at a funding mechanism, you have to say where are we spending that money. >> okay. do a deal. i want you two -- you two live up to your promise. i want to see a deal done. what is a deal between a sensible republican and a sensible democrat, where is the point where you think this could be honorably settled? i'll throw it out. i think we can both agree we haven't -- it doesn't make sense to pass a cr with this -- with the arbitrary across the board spending cuts included in the sequester, that we need more targeted spending cuts and more precision like in the spending cuts we make. that to me should be a basis for agreement. i talk to republicans and democrats who both agree. it might be harder to agree on spending levels and what we cut and spend more money on but i don't think anybody is happy with the across the board spending cuts in the sequester that we agreed to, by the way, the republican number, even though we oppose it to get past the government being closed. >> marsha, sounds reasonable to me. >> well, in the president's words, those sequester levels would be settled to law and those would be numbers that we would agree to. now what we have to do is look at that ten-year window, or even the one-year window that a continuing resolution covers and say what is going to transpired in that window? the reason you have to have a discussion about obama care and look at what can possibly be delayed in that program is because it has gone from being an 863 billion-dollar program to an estimate of 2.6 trillion. >> that's -- >> no, no, no, those are cbo numbers -- >> no, no, you have to show me on the floor -- >> i will, i will show you. >> that's simply not true. >> i'll show you those numbers because when you're going to look at the cost of these programs and the total cost of what is going to be an -- what will have an impact on the economy, all of that has to be on the table -- >> piers, the laying -- >> the overall -- we have to look at the overall spending measures. >> we do and that's -- >> and borrowing -- [ overlapping speakers ] >> come on, marsha. >> let me jump in here for a moment. >> we have to say, okay -- >> okay, look. all right. -- >> where can we get these reductions? >> calling an end to this. as i suspected despite the view, it's ended with eye rolling, come on, marsha. this is why it's so difficult. even reasonable people like yourselves seem completely i'm plaqueble. that the it for tonight. we'll talk again tomorrow and see if we can make any more headway. ladies, thank you both very much. >> thanks, piers. a story that will shock you. a couple lost in the wilderness after being shutout a national park. their story of life or death is a direct result of this shutdown and my panel of experts react to this story and so much more. stick with innovation. stick with power. stick with technology. get the flexcare platinum. new from philips sonicare. just by talking to a helmet. it grabbed the patient's record before we even picked him up. it found out the doctor we needed was at st. anne's. wiggle your toes. [ driver ] and it got his okay on treatment from miles away. it even pulled strings with the stoplights. my ambulance talks with smoke alarms and pilots and stadiums. but, of course, it's a good listener too. [ female announcer ] today cisco is connecting the internet of everything. so everything works like never before. this is the credit worthiness of the united states that we're talking about. this is our word. this is our good name. this is real. >> president obama today warning americans what is at steak if the debt crisis is not resolved. a couple kicked out of a national park, lost for days and barely survived. kathy and her husband ricky lee joining me via skype. welcome to both of you. kathy, you're speaking from your hospital bed. how are you physically? >> i'm a lot better than i was. i'll tell you that. i finally, i think, in what you call a functions human being again to some degree. it's going to be a difficult recovery, though. >> now, just to let viewers know what happened here, you and your husband, you're from arkansas. you were vacations in big bend park, national park in texas last week but you were thrown out of the park when the federal government shutdown and then an official at the national park suggested you relocate to the state park to continue your vacation and that, ricky, i think is where the trouble started. tell me what happened next. >> well, we picked a trail we thought was a loop and we were under the impression that it wasn't that hard, you know, to do and we took off for a day hike and packed enough water and food for one day and we got about a little over half way and we were up of water, out of food and it was getting dark, and so we just -- we had to pull up and sleep -- we just laid down right on the ground there and went to sleep and, i said we'll get up the next morning and finish it out. we'll be okay. the next morning we got up and took off, and it was just too -- too much up and downs and then it got hot without water, we just couldn't make it and had to stop short and just left us out there and, you know, we traveled right before dark, a little bit further and actually found some water in a stream bed underneath the rock and we drank both of us drank quite a bit of it -- >> ricky, if i could jump in, do us a favor, push the camera slightly away from you both so we can see you. it's a little too close i'm being told. >> how about that. >> that's terrific. so kathy, this is when it got serious for you because, you know, you were hiking and in the wrong park, it wasn't where you normally go. you go to the national park every year. because of the shutdown, suddenly it's getting dangerous for you, your severely sun burnt, severely dehydrated and this huge search, volunteers in getting you safe and airlifting you to safety. where you were, you felt, i believe you were on the verge of dying here? >> i did not think i was going to make it, and that's been a hard thing to say several times now, knowing that my kids are hearing that, they have heard it today already and hearing it again probably right now, but, you know, we do know desert hiking. it's something we enjoy doing. we spent many years doing it at big bend at the national park and it's just been a little more differently at the state end of things than the national end and what we thought would translate into, you know, just switching gears and, you know, switching up camps didn't quite turn out that way for us and so -- >> see, here is a question for you, kathy -- >> yes. >> this is not one of the big scandals of this shutdown by any means. >> no. >> you obviously went hiking at a different park and were unfortunate. what it is, it's one of those stories, which i suspect is being replicated all over america, people being disadvantaged by the shutdown, had to change their plans and in your case, that change of plan taking you out of the comfort zone into somewhere you really didn't understand or know very well nearly cost you your life. how do you feel about the washington politicians, which are causing all this disruption all over your country leading in your case to a potentially very serious situation? >> well, i think that what really got to me, you know, first we see people every year, the same people every year who were having to shut down -- very reluctantly something they truly believe in. those of us who go at the same time every year, we all kind of know each other who know who is who. the other thing that honestly concerned me knowing this was in play once we did go missing was that the best facility, you know, in terms of aircraft and search and rescue teams that belongs to that national park and i knew here we were out there missing and while the state park might turn to the big bend national park as it has in the past, those resources probably were not going to be there. >> right. >> like they would have. >> extra worry. >> it weighed heavily on my mind. >> i'm so pleased it turned out okay and thank you to you and ricky and good luck with your recovery and i appreciate you coming on the show. >> thank you. thank you -- if washington doesn't open up, there will be more stories like that. i'll talk to a war veteran, forced out of their home they legally own because of the shutdown. when i come back i'll get answers from my power panel of experts on what this means and how we stop it. let's go places.nounce] but let's be ready. ♪ let's do our homework. ♪ let's look out for each other. let's look both ways before crossing. ♪ let's remember what's important. let's be optimistic. but just in case -- let's be ready. toyota. let's go places, safely. but just in case -- let's be ready. make my mark i wawith pride.ork. create moments of value. build character through quality. and earn the right to be called a classic. the lands' end no iron dress shirt. starting at 49 dollars. ♪ male narrator: there's something positive being generated in california. when ordinary energy is put in the hands of extraordinary people, amazing things happen. the kind of things that drive us to do more, to go further, to be better. we're dedicated to being a company you can count on, because you've always been customers we believe in. your energy plus ours. together, there's no limit to what we can achieve. here is a story that will shock you a couple forced out of their nevada home because it sits on federal land. they were given less than 24 hours to pack and get out. they will join us soon. we'll talk about the hellish hituation and we'll talk to mark la -- la month hill and josh baron, business insider and kelly ann conway republican strategist. welcome to -- this really is an all-star panel here. let's cut to the quick here, how will this end david because people are getting fed up with it? >> people are getting fed up with it and my suspicion is the pressure coming is the answer to the question of how it will end temporarily. the remarkable thing so far, piers, the markets have been relatively calm. >> but it's the calm before the storm, isn't it? >> or the calm that comes from believing that there is no storm coming. >> or the calm that comes from knowing washington is so paralyzed this is one stupid game that will get resolved and then the question is -- >> that's right. if there is no signals from the market saying this has got to go get resolved, in an odd way it harder to resolve -- >> good point. josh, barrit good point. warren buffet said this nuclear explosion would go off with the debt ceiling not being dealt with but that's because everyone knows it will be dealt with. >> washington isn't pan niching but we seen a spike in short-term interest rates. they have been at basically zero and have gone up to .25 point. i think wall street is concerned but i think they have the appropriate low level of concern. i think washington will get a deal like before and we seen an opening like that today. the president said in his remarks, if they pass a short-term debt limit increase and open the government, he'll negotiate on the budget and you had dana bash reporting a that senior republican in the house said they might pass that four to six -- >> even dana wasn't sure -- >> right. >> and i'll come to you here, even she wasn't sure if this four to six-week extension, if you'd like of debt ceiling talk about involve the reoffipening the government. >> there is certainly no reason to believe that. i believe the stock market, what we will see is a negative downturn very soon and as time moves on and the house gets more and more clouttered with this, think you will see a drop. >> kelly ann, i have a certain sympathy when president obama said it's like somebody firebombing your house, stealing your possessions and taking your care and saying negotiate. >> that's a ridiculous analo analogy -- >> is it really? we've lost it's law move on. >> piers, if you're going to try to fund the government, you have to fund the big whoppers that are sucking up the money. >> that was a big whopper. >> obama care is a big whooper -- >> no john bayne r's statement was a big whooper. >> hold on, to answer your question, the terms like hostage and extortion and threats, the pact fact is the president said he's open to a short-term deal. you may have heard short but i heard deal. the white knight, hero that came in to save the government in the shout down and debt ceiling or as he's seen as the guy -- with the name calling i can't believe the potty mouth harry reid has. he does no favors for this president. he calls john boehner a liar, coward, puppet of ted cruz. >> any -- >> this is not how -- >> [ overlapping speakers ] >> let me go to somebody who would never use any of those terms. why are you in iowa? is this part of a secret plan to run for the white house? >> i'm speaking to a couple of groups in our senate right meeting tomorrow morning. >> okay. look, you're a bruiser around town. we all know that. how do we get this deal done given the president has opened the deal, i'm open for a short-term debt deal, what is that deal likely to be? likely to be? >> we take a deep breath. every president negotiated on debt ceilings. every president negotiated on crs. there is nothing new or exciting here. we had the national parks open during the period of these crisis when carter was the president and they passed a law when clinton had his fight with gingrich to make sure the parks were open. this president is taking a different approach but can't argue it's unprecedented. what he's going to do and what he said today he's finally going to do since the threats haven't worked is sit down and cut a deal. we need to do something to restrain spending more while we also raise the debt to pay the additional money that the president and obama care have put us into. so we need to take a look and decide how do we reform some of this over spending? we now know the new study that roy did out with forbes in manhattan institute, the cost, the average cost of obama care will be 99% higher than what it used to be for young men a year ago and 62% for women. obama care is raising the cost for the individual market, not reducing it. we need to perhaps think about delays things for awhile. >> okay. that's the -- that's the bait and switch that continues to happen. the conversation is being shifted to a conversation about debt reform, about too much spending. notice they didn't say anything about tax reform today when they brought up the conversation about reducing the deficit. what they want to do is what groover talked about is going back and talking about obama care. the president is doing what anyone would do if the opposition began with the non-starter of we want you to repeal the legislation that started this conversation. >> we'll come back and we got a lot of time with this all-star panel. i want to get into the couple that were thrown out of the home they legally owned in the wake of shutdown. a shocking story. this guy is a korean war hero. yeah, i'm married. does it matter? you'd do that for me? really? yeah, i'd like that. who are you talking to? uh, it's jake from state farm. sounds like a really good deal. jake from state farm at three in the morning. who is this? it's jake from state farm. what are you wearing, jake from state farm? [ jake ] uh... khakis. she sounds hideous. well she's a guy, so... [ male announcer ] another reason more people stay with state farm. get to a better state. ♪ i get out a lot... except when it's too cold. like the last three weekends. asthma doesn't affect my job... you missed the meeting again last week! it doesn't affect my family. your coughing woke me up again. i wish you'd take me to the park. i don't use my rescue inhaler a lot... depends on what you mean by a lot. coping with asthma isn't controlling it. test your level of control at asthma.com, then talk to your doctor. there may be more you could do for your asthma. his day of coaching begins with knee pain, when... [ man ] hey, brad, want to trade the all-day relief of two aleve for six tylenol? what's the catch? there's no catch. you want me to give up my two aleve for six tylenol? no. for my knee pain, nothing beats my aleve. there have been many shocking stories with this shut down but this one got to me. a couple forced out of their nevada home because it sits on federal land. they own the home. they were given less than 24 hours to pack their things and get out. i'm outraged on your behalf i got to say because this is a disgusting story. you've been married to ralph for 60 years and lived in this house since the 70s. you've never faced this situation despite 17 other shutdowns. your husband is a veteran of the korean war and having treatment for cancer and has no cart lidge left in his knees. >> we had the house since 1979 but never stayed down there except 26 days out of the first 13 years because we had a ranch and were busy and didn't get to go there much. now we've been off and on since then. it's a secondary residence. it's not a permanent home. >> right, but you have never -- >> that's where they like to reside. >> fitish, your parents have ner been forced out before, though. >> no, uh-uh. >> what do you feel about what happened to your parents? >> i'm very frustrated. i'm very frustrated for the fact there is a displacement. they have obligations out there as members of the homeowners to help out with different things and dad feels obligated, we help him out with a lot of that. his cancer treatment was all in las vegas this last bit and that's allowed them to have quick access to the hospitals and so forth because they had that residence. it -- it's just frustrating. >> you're taking this with incredible good spirit. i'm appalled what happened to you. there is your mother with you there. your dad is pretty frail and has gone through this. he served his country in korea and because of squabbling politicians in washington, he's been turfed out of his house. >> yeah, and he's very discouraged by it. notice he's not on any camera interview. >> why is that? >> he lost his trust in everything at this point. he doesn't trust anyone. he feels like anything that he's worked and done everything in his hard-earned life has been stripped from him. he has no access to the home. i mean, now he has access to go in there during the day to water his flowers or go down and make sure the water pump is working correctly, but they took that in the drop of a hat. >> where are they living at the moment, your parents? >> my parents have relocated into town. like i've said, it is a secondary residence. they have a faith wheel. they are staying in the fifth wheel and have a granddaughter getting married on the 19th of month and they want to be close by to join in with all of that. >> the housing that we have other than the house out at the point has steps up to the porch or up to the -- even the fifth wheel has high steps and ralph can't hardly get up the steps because he's -- his knees are so bad -- >> right. >> that he pulls himself up by holding onto the doors and i'm afraid he's going to pull the walls down. >> we take this good -- >> we're doing fine, we are. >> we're not -- we're frustrated but there is so many people in a lot worse shape than we are. >> oh, yeah. >> and we have each other and we fall back. we're a very close family unit and fall back on our others, our own because we can trust our own -- >> it's remarkably stoic of you and you're great americans for reacting that way. i appreciate you both for joining me. appreciate you both. send my very best to ralph, as well, an american war hero. let me turn to my panel. another story, there is nothing particularly terrible about this, unlike cancer patients i talk to fear of not living to the end of the week, when you hear of a korean war hero, suffered from cancer, can barely walk, thrown out of the home he legally owns because these idiots in washington. i mean, why should i not be enraged on their behalf? >> there are, as you say, many stories like this and almost all of them have odd did of being on federal lands. there was the oddity last week 400,000 furloughed workers equally as frustrated they weren't going through the issues your guests were and a reinterpretation of the law and suddenly half of washington is back at work. i was in -- >> which is ridiculous. >> it is. and anything happened in congress in the interim, no? i was in -- in one federal building yesterday where it had been mostly empty a week ago and it was mostly full yesterday. so what i think this does is sort of under cut the question of how much of this is real or not and you're seeing that to some degree in the arguments about whether you're really running into a debt limit deadline and on october 17th. >> kelly, you kept playing into that all day long on every network on a cycle, eventually the penny would drop with the guys in washington whose job it is to sort this stuff out. this is having a human toll. >> absolutely. >> it's been completely disrupted and i think in the most unfair manner. >> there are terrible stories like this across the country and terrible stories in the last five years because of the economic policies. let's do an on going reel of small businesses that failed or never got -- never got their start out of the gate, piers, because of the stimulus and tarp and obama care. >> of course, it was never happening under george bush who led to one of the great crashes in financial history. it was -- >> piers -- >> it's not a partisan comment, listen human toll -- >> my point is none of this is partisan. 17 shut downs since 76 date, right, financial crisis under republican and democrat administrations, we've seen this movie a million times. >> and the thing -- >> what -- >> the government is operating -- >> when -- >> people who lose their jobs and property to the government, there is human toll all the time because of government policies, as well. you read all the stories now of employers cutting, reducing hours to 25 a week so they don't have to compile with mandates of obama care and provide the health insurance. >> josh -- >> you got single moms across this country taking two jobs for 20 hours. >> john is opened mouth at what he's hearing. >> this is a narrative republicans have made up. you can find stories but when you look at the broad economic data there is no evidence that's a major trend -- >> this close that you and i are, they are shaking because it happened to them. it's real. >> it's not data. when you look at data from the burro of labor statistics -- >> i'm talking about the economy and truth about the economy -- >> talking about people -- >> this number insurance premiums are doubling for people. this is a non-sense statistic, the cheapest plan, a plan that's barely insurance and has a drastically high premium and you can't get with a preexisting condition, the insurance with obama care is different and better than the plan than rye is comparing it to. republicans are afraid obama care is working and premiums are lower than expected -- >> you can't even enroll -- >> one of the worst things about this -- >> it doesn't work. >> the republicans have done i final objectble, there are parts of obama care -- i can't vote anyway. there are parts of obama care that can be changed or modified are simply unfair, business being delayed for a year and regular joes, all that i think is completely flawed, however, coming into the country with a national health system where everyone gets free health care, this idea that 11 million americans can get insurance not covered before, this is somehow an outrage, the younger 18 to 35-year-olds that are healthy that need to get in the system to keep the premiums, the idea they are the primary target you guys need to understand this is evil. bringing 11 million people -- >> wait, two thirds of them voted -- >> i find that repulsive. >> as much as i support universal health care and oppose what the gop is doing, i don't think that's what they are doing, piers -- >> i seen advertising. >> they are implying it. they are trying to stop -- >> that's not true, piers. as much as i would love to agree with you and be right, that's just not true. >> all right -- >> grover, i can hear moaning. is it true or not any republicans have taken any advertising out directly targeting the younger brigade who may be tempted by obama care and telling them not to do it? >> look, what happens with trying to get the younger people, obama care tries to force younger people into the government program, and the government program is very expensive for younger people. it's particularly worse off than what you had before, and the study that i was quoting, vick roy and you can go to the website, the manhattan institute and look at your state and compare apples to apples and the cost of the health care that you can buy today you'll have to buy under obama care is going up almost doubling for men, up by 60% for women, that's why they are having trouble getting young people and 40-year-olds to buy into this program. it's not a very -- >> republicans -- >> listen, they supported obama -- >> which is why it's a good idea to delay it. >> call me old fashioned, every single doctor i talked to say it's basically a good idea. >> i need to introduce you to new doctors -- >> we have doctors in congress who say different. >> we'll come back. this extra ordinary interview where the woman in charge of obama care hadn't got a clue what any of it was about. >> so you're doing it because you haven't been able to get the subsidies ready for the businesses. >> the businesses don't get subsidies. >> they get to delay because they're not going to get any extra money but individual don't because they will. >> again they're in the market already. >> let me ask you this. am i a stupid man? >> i mean, you are, john, yes but john stewart taking shots at kathleen sibelius. my all-star panel here. i watch this, grover norquist, and i could barely believe what i was watching. it was like the person in charge of this almost didn't know anything about it. >> one of the things barack obama said when he ran for office was that he would have a very transparent government, more than previous administrations. for some reason they're not willing to tell us how many people signed up. it's a known number. they do know the number. why not level with people about simple facts? it may not be the number they want. but sibelius doesn't seem to be on top of what's going on. she could at least give us accurate numbers in a timely manner on what's happening with obama care. >> right. david, it was embarrassing to watch. and nothing against kathleen sibelius. met her once. seems a very nice lady. i was squirming watching this. >> there's a fairly simple answer to the questions he was asking particularly about why they want to get young people to sign up and the individual mandate. but what strikes me, piers, about this entire debate is two sort of fundamental facts about washington. number one, if you have a delay of four to six weeks, it doesn't really solve anything. it puts us right back into this in six weeks. so that will be forgotten in history. the second is that everybody knows what issues you have to go address if you are going to actually affect the budget deficit, which is what the republicans say in this case and some democrats say they really want to go do. there are three big bins out here. there's defense, which has been cut some by sequester and could be cut again if you were actually doing this in a honed and refined way and the entitlement programs, social security and medicare. no one wants to go touch those for all the obvious reasons. but sort of the willy sutton role. that's why he robbed banks. that's where the money was. the money is not really in obama care anymore than it was in the iraq and afghanistan wars. >> let me remind everybody in america, most of the money, your debt, is owned by china. who came out today and said, wow, this is really worrying. america may not pay us back the money they owe us. >> that wasn't what they're really worried about. >> in "new york times" a brilliant piece about this whole thing. remember this. if the debt ceiling is not dealt with, the first people who will get paid are the chinese bond holders, right? the last people who will get paid will be the americans on social security. i mean, this is a farce, isn't it? >> well, yeah, and it's embarrassing. but i think we're not at a point yet where it's really impacting the willingness of people to buy our bonds. think we've been able to explain to the chinese and japanese that they will get paid that has us laughing at us but not panicking. that said, i am hopeful a four to six-week delay will be either a grand bargain or everybody will pretend it is. it's been so embarrassing for everybody in washington there will be motivation to get something. [ overlapping speakers ] >> what's really embarrassing once the debt ceiling is raised and speaker boehner has never once said that the october 17th deadline isn't real that he's going to allow the nation to default. not once has he hinted it. all this conflation of obama care with the shutdown people are going to say i thought that would cure obama care. there'll still be glitches. and the hhs secretary doesn't know what's going on. >> we will still be talking about this until i literally go gray-haired. all-star panel thank you very much. grover, best of luck to your presidential campaign. good to see you. thank you very much. we'll be right back. >> thank you. [ coughs, sneezes ] i have a big meeting when we land, but i am so stuffed up, i can't rest. [ male announcer ] nyquil cold and flu liquid gels don't unstuff your nose. they don't? alka seltzer plus night fights your worst cold symptoms, plus has a decongestant. 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"ac 360 later" starts right now. that's all for us tonight. -- captions by vitac -- www.vitac.com good evening, everyone. welcome to "ac 360 later." a lot on the table tonight to talk about with our panel. breaking news an off duty nypd detective arrested in connection with that attack on an suv driver by a group of bikers. also is it time for the washington redskins to dump their name? we begin with our other breaking news on day eight of the government shutdow
New-yorkUnited-statesArkansasJapanNevadaIraqTexasAfghanistanIowaChinaCaliforniaManhattan >> good evening from new york. i'm chris hayes. it would be one thing if jared kushner used his position of the white house to benefit his family real estate business. that would be bad. i mean, that's your standard run-of-the-mill style corruption. again, really bad. a big deal scandal if true, but also, the kind of thing you've heard about before. maybe in state or local government. okay, but it would be another thing entirely if jared kushner actually shaped american foreign policy to punish countries for turning down deals with his business at the expense of u.s. interest. and that is exactly what special counsel robert mueller is trying to figure out according to a new exclusive from nbc news. mueller's team asked about efforts from the properties focusing on his discussions during the transition with individuals from qatar and turkey as well as russia, china, and the united arab emirates. kushner's company has struggled to refinance its flagship property at 666, i'm not making that up, 666 fifth avenue in manhattan in $1.4 billion in a debt due eye year from now. looking to foreign sources to try and pay it off. we know from the intercept that kushner before going to the white house had tried and failed to get a bailout from the former prime minister of qatar. now mueller is examining those talks according to nbc news and taking specific interest in a meeting at trump tower between the then president elect son-in-law and the former qatari prime minister during the transition in 2016. it turns out, that failed deal was not the end of the kushner family's efforts to secure that qatari money. today, the intercept broke the news that kushner companies went on to seek funds directly from the qatari government last april. jared's father, charles, meeting with the country's finance minister here in new york to convince him to invest in fifth avenue building. the deal fell through, get this, and then just a few weeks later after the deal was rejected and declines to invest in the kushner family business. this happened. >> we turn out of the diplomatic crisis erupting in the middle east. five nations with qatar and qatar is a key u.s. ally in the fight against isis and president trump appeared to side with its accusers. >> catch that? last june, saudi arabia and the uae organized a blockade of qatar. an important ally that hosts the hub of american air power in the region. the secretaries of state and defense set to work trying to fuse this situation but then the president of the united states appeared to not get the memo publicly siding against qatar. >> the nation of qatar, unfortunately has historically been a thunder of terrorism at a very high level. for qatar we want you back among the unit of responsible nations. we ask qatar and other nations in the region to do more and do it faster. >> the time suggested jared kushner may have been behind the very remarks. at least that was how secretary of state rex tillerson, remember, tillerson trying to put out the fire. different u.s. allies going apparently to kind of cold war with each other but rex put two and two together, close associate and concluded this absolutely vacuous kid was running a foreign policy in the white house family quarters. four sources tell nbc news the qatari government officials visiting the u.s. in late january and early february considered turning over to mueller what they believe is evidence of efforts by the persian gulf neighbors in coordination with jared kushner to hurt their country. carol lee is part of the team that broke that story and brian grim with intercept one of two bylines in that publication and i'll start with you. what do we know about what mueller is asking about? >> what he's asking about is whether questions along the lines of figuring out if there was any link between kushner's discussions with foreigners during discussions with the white house policy. involves as you nicely laid out, qatar and other countries. the second thing is that mueller's office reached out to foreign nationals which is expands the universe of witnesses that we kind of thought he might be talking to in specifically he's reached out to the fbi in ankara and in turkey to see if he could connect him with foreign nationals. that's significant. >> yeah. >> and the fact that the qatari government officials have decided for now not to go and talk to mueller is interesting specifically because they wrestled with this for days while they were here on this visit and as our sources were telling us, they felt like things were going well. they had discussions with secretary of state and the secretary of defense and others and they didn't want to do anything that might jeopardize that. >> that part of the story blew my mind. you see the problem with the conflict, right? it flows in many directions and ryan, what was so important about your piece and coordination in sort of put together the nbc news piece is carol's describing right, this conflict. there's these parallel things that jared kushner is doing. we know his family is looking for various sources of foreign money to inject into a cash starved property. we also know jared kushner is running a lot of foreign policy. your story says basically gets the two as close together as you could possibly imagine. ask the qataris for money and they say no and then the full force of the u.s. government is slammed down on qatar. how involved was kushner in that? >> extremely involved in the policy. without kushner, we might not have the blockade. and just so people know, this blockade is ongoing. i think they lost chad the other day but saudi arabia and the uae is still blockading the country. they are trying to prevent that food can't go in through certain channels and this cold war, very nearly became a hot war. there are reports that the emirates considered invading with this and it's not just all silliness. the yemen crisis and the humanitarian disaster is tied into this because of the way the politics play out there. saudi cares more about the yemen war and the uae cares more about qatar and so there's sort of a quid pro quo going there with saudi going after qatar and then uae goes after yemen. facilitating this entire thing is helping to explode an epidemic and mass starvation in qatar while we're at it. >> jared kushner is at the center of this. two pieces of information. kushner goes to saudi in 2017 in october. days before the head of the saudi government essentially purges a whole bunch of saudi oligarchs. it is some brave stand for reform or ruthless game of thrones move. there was reporting jared and mohammed salman had a kind of a slumber party. they stayed up several nights swapping stories. this is kushner at the center of the policies in the middle east that is very dangerous and high stakes that happens after one of the parties to this rejects an offer to put money into his business. >> and there are federal laws implicated here. you cannot advise on a policy if the policy, you know, knowingly is going to benefit you. he still owns this, a huge stake in his family company whose entire fortune is kind of tied to whether or not this 666 property collapses because these real estate companies are cross collateralized and steve bannon kind of gloated about this in michael wolff's book that if that property goes down, everything goes down with it. the entire family fortune is riding on this and he's setting foreign policy in the middle east while his family's company is trying to extract money to save him. there's absolutely federal laws implicated there. >> am i wrong that kushner has not come before mueller yet? >> he spoke to him, what we know. >> that's right. >> what we know is he did speak to mueller's team briefly right before the flynn deal was announced. he went to have conversations, but that's, as far as we know, that's it. >> i would imagine, i don't know what your white house reporting says, there must be some nervousness about jared kushner. >> yes, yes, there is. people, not just people in the white house and working with kushner but people who are working with him saying he seems to be rattled this week. >> carol lee and ryan, phenomenal reporting today. really remarkable, these two stories in the way they complement each other in terms of getting the clear picture. thank you both. for more on the stakes, harry litman and larry price under president obama and now an msnbc analyst. harry, i'll start with you. are there any federal laws implicated here? >> a whole range of them. what ryan was talking about is our ethics laws that apply to executive branch officials. let's say at a minimum, this stinks to high heaven. it's crazy that we can even ask the questions that ryan and carol's reporting provokes. is he using his office to settle scores or exploit financial gain? is he being played for a patsy? is he subject to blackmail? it just means it's not in the interest of united states for jared kushner to have this kind of roving commission he's had but there are a series of criminal laws as well that this could implicate. one is just good old fashioned bribery, but it's going to be a little bit hard to prove that after the mcdonald case but there's one more i wanted to mention. i don't want to hog the air waves but your point that he hasn't been interviewed i think is a huge one because there's no without -- he's everywhere in the obstruction case. >> right. >> and the fact he hasn't been interviewed, to me, you have to interview him before you start to negotiate with trump and the fact that he hasn't suggests to me that his lawyer has told mueller's team that he won't talk to them. he'll instead plead the fifth amendment. otherwise, we would have heard about his inter actions with them. >> there is a brief conversation with investigators -- >> in november -- >> nothing like the kind of. >> that's in november. >> nothing long-term like we've seen in other players in this. i'll give a best case scenario and get your response. the best case scenario is, look, the u.s. is a strong partnership with saudi arabia and thinks mohammed ben salman is the best thing in the world and qataris are cracking down on terrorism and part of this rising shia and this is a perfectly correct thing to get involved in and on the side of the united emirates and the saudis. what do you say to that? >> i think the thing we're forgetting in this conversation is that qualitiar is home to an air base that hosts more than 10,000 service members and qatar being a crucial member of our counter-isil coalition and a country that helped us free hostages from other al qaeda affiliates and when you think about qatar in relation to saudi arabia and it's a mix of counter-terrorism partners. saudi arabia does not have clean hands when it comes to counterterrorism. it's hard to parse the two. in my mind, the best case scenario here is this was run-of-the-mill corruption. this was just something that was purely unethical or illegal but was it more than that? worst case, what we look at is a policy move that was dictated not by our national interests but jared kushner's personal interests and the implications of that being national security was jeopardized. we were, for a few days, at war, rhetorical war with a key ally that hosts thousands of u.s. troops. fortunately, secretary tillerson and mattis able to inject themselves in a strange brew of jared kushner and donald trump and steve bannon. had it not been for that, the service members could have been in grave jeopardy. >> not only that, harry. but ned, an expanded aperture. this is one example where it's a sort of chronological tightness. please kushner saying bail us out because we are in trouble. no? okay, we're now at war you. but you've got turkish money. the russians. we met with the head of the bank during the transition. there's other places with a foreign policy while also seeking foreign dollars raises a lot of questions. >> you're exactly right here. there's a temporal circumstantial case here. we're able to see that in may, donald trump went over to saudi arabia the month before this deal with the qataris apparently fell apart and in june, donald trump sent these tweets condemning qatar. it's consequential process here. but donald trump along with his son-in-law, jared kushner, both call from the taiwanese -- adherence to the one china policy. and then jared kushner, a week after the election, met with the head of one of the largest chinese banks and discussed a $400 million loan for his company and all of the sudden once again the trump administration is backing the one china policy. there are other instances of that where the case is a little bit more circumstantial and we don't have this coincidence of sequencing but i think it's all there if you read through the lines. >> is there precedent for this? someone like jared kushner running around with the exposure he has? >> wow. so let's see. we have had situations like this. offhand, i think of john connelly during the nixon administration but basically, this is the most tangled web i've ever encountered. i think what ned says is right. this is the very best scenario and just that we're asking these questions, it's nuts. it is nuts that he's conducting this roving foreign policy for the united states when there's so many points of vulnerability. it's just beyond the pale. >> harry litman and ned price, thank you for your time tonight. white house domestic abuse scandal takes another turn. as the chief of staff advances another story that is provably false. we'll tell you what john kelly is trying to sell this time in two minutes. turning an impromptu off the record conversation with reporters of the white house today, chief of staff john kelly went on the record with yet another version of what he knew and when about former white house staff secretary and accused spouse abuser rob porter. quote, the first i heard of a serious accusation against him was on the sixth of february. the accusation was late in the afternoon, and it was simply one of his two former wives that claimed she had some level of emotional abuse. he didn't learn the physical abuse until the second story broke but the daily said that's false. quote, february 6, 4:40 p.m. daily mail approaches the white house with detailed allegations of emotional and physical abuse against rob porter, made in an interview by jennifer willoughby. second wife. what is your case that john kelly is not being truthful when he says that he was not told about physical abuse? >> so the daily mail was very clear in its original account to the white house that it was in fact physical abuse, that the wife was alleging against rob porter, so it seems that there might be some sort of a disconnect between the press office and perhaps what john kelly was told, if he's saying he didn't know that there was physical abuse and it was just emotional abuse. there seems to be a disconnect between the white house press office and john kelly overall. if i could flash forward to the next day on wednesday, john kelly saying he told rob porter it was time to go on tuesday evening but on wednesday at the white house press briefing, after 1:30 p.m., sarah sanders gets up at the podium, reads rob porter's resignation and says he's not even leaving anytime soon. there will be a transition period of some sort. so those two things don't really jive, especially because the white house also right before the press briefing brought in several other reporters and allowed porter to essentially tell his side of the story. >> that's right. and not only that john kelly puts out a statement testifying to rob porter's great character after you broke your story in which jennifer said she was dragged naked out of a shower and when there's a picture of a bruised eye, a black and blue eye of the first wife, the white house said john kelly stands by his original statement, correct? >> that's correct. he did not change his statement at all until that evening, roughly 9:30 p.m. on wednesday that the white house even updated john kelly's statement about rob porter and even then, he said, this isn't the man that i knew him to be whatsoever. it is not as if the white house told him he has to go. i told him, he has to go. he was fired. they were maintaining he resigned and left on his own terms. >> i want to bring in white house post reporter jennifer ruben. what's going on here? >> you got me. i think john kelly is a lot of trouble and engaged in this death match with jared kushner and ivanka. clearly the president is very upset, so upset he probably started a trade war because he's so upset with john kelly. everyone is just covering their rear ends here and inconceivable, not only he didn't know as francesca said until the 6th but for an entire year, he had no press clearance. john kelly came in the summer. apparently, he was told in the fall somebody was told in the fall he wasn't going to be getting his clearance. so it was john kelly not told about that or not known the details? none of this hangs together. and i think it's really reflective of the fact that john kelly is on thin ice, he felt compelled to go back to the well, five or six scandals past that already and try to clean that up. >> so here's jennifer responding for jessica. i want to get your response to this. didn't feel rob should resign until he was accused of physical abuse. that is disturbing. i'd file add protective order and called the police on several occasions and i detailed pulled naked from the shower. there's a substantive point where what john kelly understands as fireable or disqualifying for the white house, right? >> he's saying he was only aware that it was emotional abuse at first and some sort of a messy divorce but i cannot stress enough that the daily mail told the white house press office that it was domestic violence and it was physical abuse and went through the allegations from rob porter's ex-wife. so certainly, the press office was aware of exactly what would be running in the daily mail. >> he said today, jennifer, i have nothing, absolutely nothing, this is john kelly, absolutely nothing to even consider resigning over. we didn't cover ourselves in glory in terms of how we handled that on wednesday morning. it was confusing. >> it must be confusing for the chief of staff. i think that's the problem. he says lots of things not going as he would have liked them. same thing with clearances in general. too many people had them. whose job was that? that was his job. there's a disturbing pattern in this administration that people in charge tend to be spectators in their own administration. he is in charge of that white house. if he didn't know, why didn't he know? i think, frankly i'm stunned they're going back to this. could be arguing about many other things, and other things transpired but this must have stuck with him and the president's craw and that is why he's going back to it again and again. >> great reporting to break that story initially. thank you both. coming up, exclusive reporting from nbc news. the president launched his unplanned trade war because he was furious about the news cycle. the unglued president in two minutes. i'm not at risk. even healthy adults 65 and older are at increased risk of pneumococcal pneumonia. isn't it like a bad cold or flu? pneumococcal pneumonia is a potentially serious bacterial lung disease. in some cases, part of your lung may fill with mucus, making it hard to breathe. can i catch it from a pneumococcal vaccination? 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well, tonight, thanks to an nbc news exclusive report, we might have an answer. according to two officials, trump's decision to launch a potential trade war was born out of anger at other issues. gary cohen, top secretary and steve mnuchin tried to talk him out of it but became unglued and spurred on by wilbur ross, just put that up there while i'm reading. he was angry and gunning for a fight and he chose a trade war. stephanie ruhle, one of the reporters who broke that news with nick. and former candidate evan mcmullin. what's your reporting about the mood inside the white house that pushed the president towards the decision? >> bad day for trump. hope hicks leaving. upset about john kelly and and downgrading jared kushner and then he wasn't happy with jeff sessions that day. president trump was not in a good state and also remember, he's without rob porter who did serve as sort of a filter. so wilbur ross makes his way in and president trump has had these views on trade as has wilbur ross for quite some time. but it's really just been wilbur ross and his side kick peter navarro trying to push this initiative. no one else in the white house, not john kelly or the defense department, the state department, the treasury department. no one knows about this. wilbur ross scheduled a meeting with ceo's of steel companies and nobody knows who they are. nobody's been vetted. the white house said, well, these were people who have most been here before. yet no one knew their name. there was no legislative plan to tell congress. there was no diplomatic plan to tell other countries, other allies and the white house council's office was doing a review of possible tariffs on steel that's not going to be done for another two weeks. this came out of absolutely nowhere. >> so there's a sort of substance and a process question. put it to the side. we debated this in a fascinating debate with leo and the steel workers and stephanie, but process-wise, like, this is really far a field of how something like this would normally work, right? >> well, absolutely. i mean, you would consider a policy change like this very judiciously and engage all sorts of stake holders in the government and outside of the government. it would take time. you would have a plan to roll it out. there would be an engagement period, even before you did that with the public likely but this is the thing. it makes me wonder, i mean, not wonder so much, just be concerned that if the president is willing to take action like this and knock 500 points off the dow in one fell swoop, when he's worried about other things or angry at other things, what else is he willing to do when the net sort of tightens, the mueller net tightens around him? i think we'll see more. >> that's what i was saying. it's preferable to an actual trade war for now. >> if this is what blows off the steam, better to slap tariffs on aluminum. >> behind the white house lawn or whatever. there's a process of constraining the president at all times from things he wants to do and to be honest on this one, we knew he wanted to do that and his own staff running around trying to slow roll him for a year. who should be surprised that he finally said, guys, i'm the president. i want this. >> he was surprised when the market dropped and when steve mnuchin and the rest of them up and what is the market doing like this and it was actually general kelly who, you don't hear sort of defending the new york bankers often who said to the president, these guys told you over and over, this was going to happen, sir. >> you know, there's also this question about like the policy making process when you think about foreign policy and war, right? so this really has me worried. i have to genuinely say. the president of the united states has incredible military power. year over year, the aufm allows us to -- passed after that allows us to wage global war anywhere in the world at any time for any reason. here's something that caught my eye last week. the pentagon secretly planning for north korea last week. table top exercise. okay. held over several days in hawaii. a number of pitfalls in well entrenched military. the pentagon's limited ability to evacuate injured in the peninsula. also the 200,000 casualties you can then expect in the first day of fighting. is this something you worry about? >> yes, and let me say this. let me temper this a little bit. i do hope not because trump is so reasonable but reasonable national security people around him he gave an order to do something that didn't need to be done, they would stop it or so horrible. >> wait a second though. wait a second. i want to stop you there. it's the united states. he's the president of the united states. he gives an order. >> let me finish. what i'm worried about is on the margins because there are all of these decisions you make as president about national security and using the military where you could exercise restraint or you could do it and those are the hard decisions. those are the hard decisions that presidents make. there are a lot of them all the time. what happens on the margins? so something where we could take action but we don't have to. there may be other options but justifiable kind of to do it and you could explain it. that's what i'm worried about. >> chris hayes, also, history has shown, kind of all talk, right? i mean, even this. now he's pushed this off a week, so what are you going to see happen in the white house? they're going to scramble and try to get him to swallow this and not do it. bullies talk a big game. and point and push you in the chest with their finger but how many of them actually take a swing? have you seen president trump actually take a swing that often? on twitter, great, come get me. >> yes, he called it down the block tough. yeah, right. but and that's totally true. he can't even fire people. the guy who ran the show, can't fire people in person but there is a question of like, these two things happening. the people falling away, keith shilers, bodyguard not there anymore. still getting paid. hope hicks, not there anymore. jared kushner is in a lot of trouble it looks like, et cetera. and the mueller probe and whether the unpredictability ratchets up. >> he's the first president where ever who does things because he's mad or does things policy-wise despite his own staff or he's in a bad mood and we know from the reporting in the white house, from the post and "the new york times" and from nbc, he does it a lot and losing the emotional support people around him that he's had in the white house who keep him from having these jags. so who knows what's going to happen? >> this is why i start to find this jared kushner and javanka, if you will, they are his security blanket. in the end, they're not going anywhere, but if they were to leave the white house and no longer has that security blanket and all of this other stuff is happening, then i think we have plenty to worry about. one last thing in bloomberg, trump's swaps beloved burgers for salads and soups in new diet. yes, makes you cranky but bone chilling to imagine what that can produce. thank you for joining us. still ahead, why the nra boycott having more of an effect with companies than politicians. i'll explain ahead. and thing one and thing two starts next. drone testing facility in central new york and the mohawk valley, which marks the start of our nation's first 50-mile unmanned flight corridor. and allows us to attract the world's top drone talent. all across new york state, we're building the new new york. to grow your business with us in new york state, visit esd.ny.gov. this time, it's his turn. you have 4.3 minutes to yourself. this calls for a taste of cheesecake. philadelphia cheesecake cups. rich, creamy cheesecake with real strawberries. find them with the refrigerated desserts. with real strawberries. ♪ i'm walkin wow! ♪nshine ♪ i'm walking on sunshine ♪ wow! ♪ applebee's handcrafted burgers. any burger just $7.99. now that's eatin good in the neighborhood. and sometimes, i don't eat the way i should. so, i drink boost. boost high protein nutritional drink has 15 grams of protein to help maintain muscle and 26 essential vitamins and minerals, including calcium and vitamin d. boost high protein be up for it yourbut as you get older,thing. it naturally begins to change, causing a lack of sharpness, or even trouble with recall. thankfully, the breakthrough in prevagen helps your brain and actually improves memory. the secret is an ingredient originally discovered... in jellyfish. in clinical trials, prevagen has been shown to improve short-term memory. prevagen. the name to remember. i grew up in the projects and so home ownership was not an option for us. i am taking the steps to own a home because i want my children to know it's all so that they can have a better life. oh my gosh. this is amazing. we're so much closer to home ownership. thing one tonight. the trump administration and interior secretary ryan zinke did something never literally been done before. reduced lands that had previously been designated national monuments by prior presidents. one called bear's ear's national monument in utah which they reduced by staggering 85%. before that when ryan zinke rode around on a horse at bear's ears last summer, the review process about preservation, not oil drilling. >> should this be preserved? >> you know what? yes, of course, the legacy and what i've seen should be preserved. the issue is whether the monument is the right vehicle or not the right vehicle. what vehicle of public land is appropriate to preserve? the culture identity to make sure that tribes have a voice and make sure you protect the traditions of hunting and fishing and public access and we also have a pretty good idea of oil and gas potential, not much. so bears ears isn't really about oil and gas at all. >> at all. not about oil and gas at all. wouldn't it be absolutely galling if the opposite were true? if it was all about oil and gas? that's thing two in 60 seconds. more than a thousand workers are starting their day building on over a hundred years of heritage, craftsmanship and innovation. today we're bringing you america's number one shave at lower prices every day. putting money back in the pockets of millions of americans. as one of those workers, i'm proud to bring you gillette quality for less, because nobody can beat the men and women of gillette. gillette - the best a man can get. you wouldn't accept from any one else. so why accept it from your allergy pills? most pills don't finish the job because they don't relieve nasal congestion. flonase allergy relief is different. flonase relieves sneezing, itchy, watery eyes and a runny nose, plus nasal congestion, which pills don't. flonase helps block 6 key inflammatory substances. most pills only block one. and 6 is greater than 1. start your day with flonase for more complete allergy relief. flonase. this changes everything. we also have a pretty good idea of certainly the oil and gas potential. not much. so bear's ears isn't really about oil and gas at all. >> that was ryan zinke, secretary of the interior saying, and i quote him again, bear's ears isn't really about oil and gas at all. so of course, today, "the new york times" reports oil was central in the decision to shrink bear's ears monument according to internal agency e-mails show from the start of the review process, agency directed staff to figure out how much coal, oil, and natural gas had been put essentially off limits. utah senator orrin hatch's office e-mailed a map with oil and gas sites that beared ears. it was incorporated in almost exactly into the much larger reductions. last month, that land opened for new mining and drilling leases. >> i'm actually optimistic because at the end of the day we'll make a recommendation that i think will be best for our country and best for preservation. 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then reinforces, right to michele's point reinforces sense of cultural persecution. we're raiding against forces of corporate america and corporate echelon. >> how much of a reaction delta's reaction is drawing. i've seen postings in facebook how proud they are to fly delta in the wake of this. as we see retreat in other social institutions, one of the things that draws us together is corporations and brands and people have been putting more -- well on some people get real joy out of it. people identify. even lacroix walter. so for some people, people say like i'm a delta person and say that in an unironic way. when you identify that with a brand it makes sense to expect the brand to express your political value. >> here was an interesting comment. a very cynical thing play. corporate activism on social issues isn't in tension with corporate self-interest on tax policy and corporate stinkiness in paychecks. >> what matters most are tax cuts and favorable policies, tax breaks, incentives. they are not going make any concessions on that. >> they are not going the wall on that. >> they will fight for that. when they make concession on these other areas. the notion that it's altruism, it's not. will activists take it? yes. but it's not altruism. >> i was skeptical about how much this is going to work in general although just two hours ago on this network i saw a panelist say you don't mess with delta if delta wants a tax break you give it to them. to the extent you succeed getting people on national television saying that maybe the capital thing is working. >> there's a generational issue. there's a generational divide in political preference that's opened up. that's usually not the case that there's such a wide twied between older voters and younger voters. >> you have an older generation where it's the norm to have a gun in the house. you have a younger generation where it's increasingly not. increasingly foreign way of life and so it doesn't have any sort of symbolic value. >> i've seen some data. it's hard to find reliable numbers on this. looks like frequent travellers are more democratic than the country as a whole and it would make sense to me that gap would be widening especially with the sort of, you know, the globalist versus nationalist perspective. you would think people more eager to travel might be more aligned with more globalist political coalition. >> people moving into the cities. in the past older people moved out to the suburbs, that was your way of life. younger people are moving into cities and guns and cities are not ideal. >> there's also this fact that these kinds of people that the political system don't have much power in the political system, right? there are 30 u.s. senators representing states with a smaller population than queens. okay. right. so that's the balance in the united states federal government. those same consumers, the consumers of queens matter a lot because there's a lot of them and they are young and diverse. >> also there's a lot of people on the left looking for any way they can to express political power. the immense enthusiasm around special elections for state legislative seats. drawing national attention. i can vote and elect somebody to my state legislature. >> thanks for joining me tonight. that does it for "all in." catch us every week night at 8:00 right here on msnbc. unglued. let's play ""hardball"." good evening. i'm chris matthews in new york. we're witnessing the consequences of governing by chaos. the president is angry, isolated, depressed and he's lashing out in ways that have big repercussions. nbc news reports now that on wednesday evening the president became unglued, that's the word in the words of one official familiar with the president's state of mind. unglued. events had set him off in a way two officials said they had not seen before. hope hicks testimony to lawmakers investigating russia's interference in the 2016
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