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booktv is going to be live for the next three hours. we are going to begin our conversation, of course, inviting you to join us a little but later with the author of the new book, "black hawk down." his name is mark bowden. this is the book. we were looking at it, a "new york times" bestseller list that comes out tomorrow. and i know you're not surprised because you ought probably know already, but you are number eight. >> that still great to hear. >> what is that like? >> it is thrilling. i have been writing for 20 or 25 years. this is my third book. so it is thrilling, it is a fantasy that i think all writers have. >> what you think this book -- how do you think it is different than the other books and why it has gone popular? >> i think the subject matter of combat and war has a built in constituency with the military. what has happened with this book is that it spilled over even from that into a more general leadership. because i do think there is such an amazing true story. i can say that because i did not make it up. for the same reasons that i grew so wrapped up in it and so excited about it, i think that other people reading it are as well. it is such an extraordinary experience. >> for the people that don't know much about it, 1993, mogadishu, what is about? >> it is about a raid that took place on a sunday afternoon. at 160 elite american soldiers launched a mission to arrest two clan leaders and one of the busiest neighborhoods and downtown samarra. they anticipated arresting these folks in rolling out the city on a convoy and instead, one of their black hawk helicopters were shot down and they ended up down in the city for about 15 hours involved will what was probably the most intense gunfight that american soldiers had been involved in since the war in vietnam. >> and reduce introduce us to some of the characters in your book how about this one? >> that is major general william at garrison. he was this elite unit sent to somalia to try to track down mohammed and his lieutenants and arrest them. he is a long serving individual not as well-known outside the military, but he is particularly involved with a lot of covert military activity over the past 20 to 30 years. >> how did you get the general and others to cooperate with you and tell you their story? >> well, the general did not cooperate and tell me his story. i started by talking to the soldiers who were on the street that day. they were eager to tell me what had happened to them. each of them had the name and phone number of other soldiers who had been there with them. before long, as i began working on it, my list of people to interview grew exponentially. >> who are these guys? >> let me see, that is brian hurd and david floyd. two of the u.s. army rangers that took part in the mission. one of the things if you take a close look at how young they are. the average age of the rangers in this battle was 19 years old. >> 19 are sold in this battle. what they have to do to become a ranger? >> that is elite unit in the army. they volunteered three times to be where they are. they volunteered for the army, then the gung ho soldiers can volunteered to be their man, then they can volunteer to be chairman. it's a very rigorous selection process and the men who make it are really the cream of the young soldiers in the army. >> who is this? >> that is the face of michael mark bowden one of the pilots used helicopter was shot down. he is lucky, even though he doesn't look very lucky in that picture, in that he is the only one of the pilots whose life was spared. he was held captive for 11 days and i think that no one, including the leadership from the white house was prepared for the losses and casualties. i think this image of michael to rant crystallized shock and surprise that all of america felt when our unit in our soldiers in somalia were killed. when their bodies were dragged through the streets and in this case beaten and held captive. >> what is this over here? >> that is one of the most horrible pictures that we have ever had to look at. the body of an american soldier being dragged through the streets by a cheering mob of somalis the day after the battle. >> went about it here? >> the photograph originally appeared when it was taken by a canadian journalist. the only western journalist in mogadishu when this battle took place. i must say he was a very brave man to be out on the streets that day. that picture ran everywhere, probably every major newspaper and magazine in the country. there is also video images that ran on television. >> our phone lines are open if you'd like to talk to you mark bowden. he is the first in a series of tests that we are going to have at the book expo in los angeles. here is how you join us. if you live in the east or central time zone, please call the numbers on your screen. the two of the three words of your cover, black hawk. it's getting a lot of attention these days. >> a black hawk is the helicopter that is used to deliver american infantrymen to battle. it is be a major attack helicopter and the other book that but that we hear a lot about is an apache helicopter. it is not a troop carrier. but a black hawk will carry about 15 or 16 soldiers are back, it is armed with rockets and miniguns and a formidable fighting machine. >> how did you pick the title? >> well, the mission that i describe in the book changed irrevocably in the somalis shot down a black hawk helicopter and removed all chance that they would be able to quickly rollout of the city. so really the reason that this battle took place is because they were able to shoot down a black hawk. when they dead, it became such a shock to the soldier on the ground, they kept shouting to the radio, we have a black hawk down in the city. it seems to me an emblem of their shock and surprise and of the whole story. >> when did you first go to mogadishu? >> i went there in may and june of 1997. i paid my way with a drug that was popular in somalia. >> where you grow at? >> viggo in countries and slide into somalia. >> there is no government in somalia. there is no law. so everything is legal. so what i did was a paid my way in hot and flew into somalia that way. >> were you doing on the cover here and what is this on your head? >> that is a hole that was punctured in the cinderblock. that picture i'm on the roof of a building where i stayed in mogadishu. we were not allowed to leave the compound when i was there because it was too dangerous to be out on the streets. so the only place i could go to relax was on the rooftop. so my friend, peter, he snapped that picture. >> to the military cooperate with you on this book? >> i did get some help initially in setting up the interview with the young ranger. after a little while, i think they got tired of me. because i think there used to dealing with writers who write for newspapers and magazines writing relatively short story straight when they set up the initial 12 interviews from you, that was obviously the very beginning for me. i think they got tired of my request for a certain point. most of it was supported outside of any kind of official help from the army. >> are they happy with this book? >> much to my surprise, yes. they loved this book. i'm very surprised because by no means is it a whitewashed account of the battle. it details the tremendous heroism and sacrifice and it also details the blunders and the stupid mistakes and serious mistakes that were made. the interservice rivalries and inter- unit rivalries. a lot of things and i'm sure would not have made it into the public-relations version of the battle. >> mark bowden is be author of "black hawk down." the first telephone call is from florida. hello. >> caller: thank you so much for taking my call. mark bowden, i want to thank you. it is the first time that i have seen you. i've read excerpts from your book and it was either esquire or men's journal that it was in. i also saw the video investigative reports that some find it on this whole issue. and i have talked to some persons who are involved with that unit and i am a former vietnam veteran and a sheriff in florida. it is such a wonderful piece of journalism. i was trained as a journalist at boston university. but what with the dead, and how little attention was paid bear, especially if it was finally recorded through frontline with the current administration, it is just a remarkable piece of writing and reporting. i really respect what you did, and i know that there is so many other people in this area down here those who appreciate what you did. they told a story that otherwise never would've been told everywhere. >> thank you, florida. >> thank you very much. obviously it is gratifying to me that the book has been received largely by the soldiers that fought there. by the veterans, it is really embraced by these men and i'm so grateful. >> he talked about how this began as well. how did this began? >> it began necessary in the newspaper that i work for for 20 years. the newspaper got behind the story fairly early. nevertheless, they agreed to support me on the project and ultimately they ran it as a 30 part series in the inquirer. also at the same time on the internet. it was a big hit with the newspaper. when i spoke with canada's who featured in the book. >> okay, so first it goes to the paper, then to the web, then to the book and tv? >> well, the tv is made of the internet website. >> than the audio book? >> yes, audio book. >> then where from here? >> welcome as being made into a film by jerry bruckheimer it was also a documentary film, which i made with some of the producers and directors who worked at the philadelphia inquirer, which aired in philadelphia on the are public broadcasting station and then a few weeks ago on cnn. we have had a pretty broad tour of the media. >> so now it has its own website. >> black hawk down.com. >> is a promotional vehicle at this point. but it will put you back to the original newspaper series and it's more than just the text of the book. it includes interviews with the soldiers and actual pieces of the videotape that was shot during the battle, radio traffic during the battle, graphics, maps, photographs, it is an amazing example of what you can do only on the web. >> i was very interested in your book to her. how many cities have you been to >> los angeles, then colorado springs, i went to l.a. at about midnight. >> you spent today in denver? >> yes, denver and before that i was in chicago. then i was in actually in l.a. for a couple of days. and it's been a different city every day. with the book tour, in addition to the big cities, we go to a very obscure places as well where military bases are. so i have been to junction city, kansas, i have been to anniston, alabama, which is very near fort mcfarland. >> is that creative publicity? >> i think that those trips don't generate publicity so much as book sales. the military bases are there and i think that our core audience for this book has actually been military people in sacramento, california, you are next. >> caller: hello, my name is john gallagher. thank you. >> we are having a hard time hearing you. could you start over, please? >> caller: yes, my name is john gallagher and i was in mogadishu for three months. just have a question for mark bowden. is there a reason that has the military given a reason why we were really over there? when i was over there, there were starving people and things like that. and i couldn't really understand why the government said we were over there. >> okay, the question was why were we in mogadishu. we were there because we intervene with 20,000 marines in the summer of 1992. basically ended the famine very quickly. so we were creating a coalition government and that was when i started having problems with one of the warlords, mohammed. and he was ultimately declared an outlaw by the u.n. and task force ranger was sent to somalia to track him down them down and arrest him and his leaders in order to remove him as a factor of the famine in mogadishu. it was a military mission, and that is what led to this battle on october 3. >> getting our own voices back in our earpieces, it is a little bit difficult to talk at times. >> yes, it is. >> we have also just found out that random house announced its 100 top books of the 20th century. what do you think of it? what you think of the list? >> welcome a lot of my favorite books are on it. >> i was so happy to see the great bridge by david mccullough. it was probably one of the great engineering achievements of its time. >> and that is somewhat cool because we've done the panama canal book and another new book coming out. >> yes, i discredit actually not too long ago for a second time. it is a great example of how you can write about a very technical subject but in such a compelling and fascinating way, bringing in the characters of designers and engineers. it is such a thrilling book about the whole period. >> what of? >> well, it is one of my favorites. one of the books about the early astronauts about the 20th century. it has always been an inspiration to me, in part because they took a subject matter, which was the early astronauts, which i think almost anyone what i thought could've been said to have been covered to death. but you have newspapers tv and there was so much in a fresh way that we didn't know what that was really liked that it was really such an astonishing book. >> have the number one book right here. >> i have never read it. >> neither have i. >> maybe i need to go out and get it. [laughter] >> it is henry adams, and it is called the education of henry adams. he was the grandson of john quincy adams, the great grandson of john adams. >> i have read some of his novels, but i have never read his autobiography. friendly, i was surprised to see included on a list of 20th 20thh century books because i think of henry adams as a 19th century figure. even if you have to go quite a ways down the list to get to more current books. even with neil she hands book, it is downline and robert caro'k as well. lbj. the great classic of the urban reporting, covering these reports. anyone who needs a new book to read to read the powerbook. >> as we talk a little bit more about this list and what is on and what is not. maybe you have some opinions about it if you have been reading the list over the past several days. the next call from huntsville, alabama. >> caller: yes, my question comes in two parts for mark. number one, i was in mogadishu with an aviation track unit. unfortunately, one question is positive and one is negative. i will start with a negative first. most of the journalists, don't get me wrong, because congrats on writing this book, but most of the guys are pretty much in the way between that and the reporters and cnn -- [laughter] i mean come you guys are hard to keep out of the way. the second part of this is i would like to congratulate you on doing your book there to the fact that when i get back to the states come at it seemed like nobody knew anything about somalia and we were just showing the way. it was like you guys didn't do what you're supposed to do. and it wasn't really worth anything. and i will tell you that's a hard thing to deal with when we were coming back. especially if you spend most of your time over there doing the best you can do. >> when were you there? when were you there, caller? >> i was there from 1992 to august of 1993. >> thank you for your service. i think newspaper people can get in the way. but you are complaining about people in america not knowing what happened in mogadishu. and that was part of the effect that there were no reporters in mogadishu on october 3 and forth. so you have to take the good with the bad. as soldiers, i'm sure that sometimes journalists can get in the way. but what you don't have anyone there to report the story and take the pictures, then i don't think that you should be terribly surprised when you come home that your fellow americans know nothing about what is going on. >> how long after the incident did you start writing the articles? >> i started working on the story about 2.5 years after the battle and the stories ran in november and december of 1997, which was a good four years after the battle took place. >> you remember the first time they said i have to write this point we were. >> yes, i actually felt that way. when i first heard about the battle right when it happened in october of 1993, i remember thinking, what an amazing story this is, and i thought that some lucky writer will get to do the story. but because i have no background in the military and i have never written about the military, i just assumed that lots of other writers would see the potential here and so many people specialize in writing about these things, then how can i ever do it? i figured if i ever tried by the time i got to speak people would be way out in front of me. it came as a surprise to me about 2.5 years later when i met the father of one of the rangers that was killed. he told me that he really didn't know very much about how his own son had died in the battle. and i said that no one has written the story. what a wonderful story it would be. and he said well, no one has really done much coverage of this. so that was the day, that was in the spring of 1996. when i just determined that if nobody else is going to tell the story, and i'm going to at least try. >> mark bowden is one of three or 400 authors who is in over this three-day period of book expo. it is happening during the country and have about 30,000 people apparently here over three days. is this your first book expo? >> it is exciting for me. i've seen a lot of my friends who are writers here and also sends a been all over the country, meeting the booksellers so it is part of your book to her. it is the books that are not out yet that will be coming out and the displays are fascinating. >> speaking of books that are not out yet, it is galileo's daughter that is coming out in the fall. this is a book that is following up on the longitude that was on a bestsellers list right now. >> what you have coming up? >> i'm working on a project right now that i'm sure they would prefer that i didn't discuss. >> for the newspaper? or for a book? >> i know will be in the newspaper series that i think there is a good chance i will development into a book. >> i'm not sure yet. i really won't know until i am a little bit further down the line. >> it does in a different way than black hawk down. some of the contacts and friends i have made working on this book told me about this story. >> anchorage, alaska. your next question for mark bowden. >> caller: hello, i also was in somalia during the summer of 1993. during that time they were there and also beforehand. the only reason i mention that is because when we flew over mogadishu, we obviously did not have any guns. and we were regularly fired upon by the somalis when we were flying into and out of the u.s. hospital that was set up. give me statistics on how many u.s. soldiers were injured or killed during the operation? >> i have seen those numbers come 18 american soldiers were killed on october 3 and several injured. i think the total number, and i could be wrong about this, but i figured somewhere around 37 or 38 soldiers were killed and i don't know how many casualties there were. but clearly a lot more soldiers hurt in just on the days that i wrout. >> he ca restore hope. >> yes, that was the initial intervention to end the famine in small area. it was really separate from operation restore hope it was a u.n. mission. task force ranger was done by the u.s. military with a charge to track down the ids and they were strictly under american command and this was an elite force of army soldiers and special operations force involved and these are some of the cream of our military. >> here's a picture in our book. a group shot for you or someone else? >> for themselves, this is the task force ranger posing in the desert. one of their members snapped member snapped that picture when they were over there. >> okay, florida, you are next. >> caller: hello, mr. mark bowden. >> i am sorry, we are having a hard time with your audio today. so we will have to let you go. if we can clear up the problem, we will get you back. simon & schuster to the audio book? >> yes, this is another one of the media stories that have appeared. it's a thrill for me. the actor who reads this is joe morton ,-com,-com ma a wonderful reader and actor. to plug a cassette tape in and sit back and listen to what you have written, it is really one of the great thrills that you can have. >> it'd be a show yourself? >> yes, i did. i take it that day. and i thought that they must be doing a special on audio books and so we might use a few minutes of it. especially if we had the whole hour of me just plugging away. [laughter] >> i didn't find it hard at all. it was fun. because i think that you work hard to write well and for someone to ask you to read what you have are written out loud is very flattering and fun. i did not have to do too many -- it would've been bad if i would've done it for hours. i managed to read them without too much trouble. the funny part was when i read a passage out loud and she told me that my stomach growled and i had to redo it. >> yes, we were talking to someone yesterday and i asked to visit is a good thing when the author does his own audio book and she said no, it's not that at all because they think they can but they can't. >> even when we made the documentary film, i said that you guys don't want us to read it, they let me audition for it, but if you audition and then listen to a real professional, it's pretty evident that i lack the training and skill. [laughter] >> where did you learn how to write? >> i started writing when i was a student at leola college in baltimore. i was the editor of my college in baltimore and then i went to work for the baltimore news american which doesn't exist anymore. and i have worked for newspapers ever since. the answer is i learn how to write everyday for newspapers. >> what book is as for? >> this is my third book. as i said, the first one that is being purchased by someone other than my family and immediate circle. >> were the first to? >> it was called doctor dealer, the story of a prep school individual named larry lavan who went to the university of pennsylvania who started doing marijuana as a fraternity brother on campus and then switch over to cocaine in the late 1970s and began making literally millions of dollars a month. he was ultimately caught by the fbi running one of the largest cocaine rings ever in the united states, lived as a fugitive for a couple of years with his wife and children before they caught him again. it is that. of life, and it was that. he has been a federal prison ever prisoner since 1986. >> comic books to do so? >> i think about 17,000. >> is that a lot or a little? >> it's a little tonight how many has black hawk down sold so far? >> i'm not sure about about a hundred 30,000 copies. i know that we are in the sixth printing, so the number they printed was trying to stay a little bit ahead of the demand. >> what was her second book? >> it was called bring in the heat and it was about a professional football team, the philadelphia eagles who i spent three years with. it was an account of the lives of the players and coaches over the course of one season in philadelphia. >> why did you write that book? >> i had an opportunity to cover the football team and i have always been fascinated. baseball has been in annual event every spring, new titles all over about baseball, but football is ardently a more popular sport in america now, it is not written about very often. so here's an opportunity to explore sort of a slice of popular culture that interested me me that might actually sell. >> the book industry according to different statistics is about a 21 or 22 billion-dollar industry in this country. this is why about 30,000 people have gathered in los angeles, california at the convention center this weekend and they are all industry people, this is not open to the general public. so you have to be a bookseller or librarian, an exhibitor, someone attached to the book industry to be able to come into this event. the exhibits range from people in it lynna gro, which is your publishers named. >> yes, i just saw spohn, the comic book character. >> yet the characters here, to people selling furniture that you can put your bookstore. so the pretty wide range of things. it happens every year, although some are a little unhappy this year because of earlier than normal. so we usually get look at this now come you said that you saw the bookstore out here, dear member? >> i'm interested in a novel that girl that when it will be publishing. but i don't think it will come out for another year. it is called in the fall, it seemed like an interesting topic to me. >> how do you write? >> at work collecting information and target to the point where i feel like i'm a sponge that is saturated and i basically start writing early in the morning until about midday, noon or 1:00 o'clock. then i play tennis or workout. because i can't write out a strong creative level for more than four or five hours at a time. that is how i do it. >> would you do not? >> i work on a program that i've been using for years, part of the lotus package called army pro. i don't know if it's better than the other one, it's just one i'm really used to and works great for me. >> him he wants to do with the day? >> you know, i've never counted them and i don't really know. i think of it more in terms of how i am applying myself. because i get totally lost when i'm writing and am not aware of the passage of time. but i do notice when i start to make typos and things like that. but my intention -- that i'm flagging. so then i decided, okay. i need that time. i know i do. you need that time to recharge. a lot of this takes place subliminally, this creative aspect of it. if i have this narrative problem that i cannot resolve, but just try to have a good night sleep, i can sight of it without any trouble. >> was a book dedicated to? >> to my mother and the memory of my father who died in 1992. my mother, she went with me to cia headquarters in langley, virginia. she disallowed and was with me in denver and colorado springs when i made bookstore appearances. >> what is thrilling for her? >> my mother has always been a reader and she has always been an enthusiastic supporter of my writing career. and i think that i am a 25 year along, overnight success. it is fun, she loves me, and she's happy to see that something that i have written is getting all this attention and is selling so well. >> who are aaron and bj and danny and then? >> those are my children. my oldest is aaron, he is graduating from florida this year. bj is a 19-year-old marine. anna works near our house in a local hospital and danny is a little guy who lives with us. >> this on that was a marine, did he offer any insight into your work? >> i was pretty far along when bj decided to join the marines. i did send him off to boot camp because i wanted him to be aware of the reality of the commitment that he was making. i think that a lot of soldiers that have entered the military in the last three years have been lucky to have done their entire duty without ever going to war and i think everyone ought to know that that is why they are there. and that is probably one of the most big examples in the last 20 or 30 years. >> who is this? >> mohammed sheikh alley who fought against american soldiers. if you look at his right hand, his hand is twisted in that position. i went to try to find some always who fought against him and get insight into what their motivations were and how they felt. also, just details about what they did on that day so that i could describe the action of the battle from both sides of the firing line. >> who are these two people? >> well -- >> before you do that, what was it like to interview people that had killed americans. >> i tried to detach myself. when i was 12 years old, i read a book called samurai, which was an account of japan's leading fighter pilot. i was in seventh grade. i grew up in a time when it seemed like every third movie was about what work you. my uncles and dad would tell stories about it. they were from an american perspective and not made such an impression on me because it was through the eyes of the enemy. when i actually got to a point, i felt like i knew that i could tell this story from the american point of view, but wouldn't it be great if i could make sense of it from the other side as well. like the 19-year-old americans who are on the street, they don't make the policy that put them there. they are like victims of events that placed them in a position where they are trying to kill one another. so it is a man who had very little understanding of the global politics involved and why the united states was there. he was defending his homeland for what he perceived to be a foreign invasion and i could understand his motivation in doing what he did. >> did he hate americans? no, he didn't. but he did feel that he defeated americans in the battle. because the day after this mission, the president called off the mission. >> el paso, texas, you are maxed. >> i want to know if you could elaborate on the bad blood between the u.s. secretary-general and the other general and how that played a part in the task force ranger. >> okay, well boutros boutros-ghali was the general secretary. he was the diplomat whose government had sided with him when mohammed was leading against that plan. so they had preceded boutros boutros-ghali and even though they had gone on from that as an egyptian diplomat, they perceived everything that the u.n. did as the efforts of boutros boutros-ghali and elevate the that the rod, which was the clan led by him. so i think that the fact that boutros boutros-ghali with the u.n. general secretary, definitely colored the situation in mogadishu and made it more difficult to get a date to cooperate with u.n. efforts. >> mississippi, you are maxed. >> hello. >> hello my son is [inaudible name] >> oh, yes, a fine young american. >> caller: we would like to thank you for writing this book. the matter what they are involved in, they go through the gulf war. and i am glad that you have made aware and i can't tell you how much we appreciate it. >> thank you very much. i am grateful for your call. one of the most satisfying things for me has been the one to which this book has been received by the men that fought there. i don't think that i could get a higher compliment than that. >> we should go back to those pictures. and actually the man with was a cowboy hat, randy shugart, the one with the baseball hat is very gordon. they are two delta force operators that were killed in this battle and awarded the medal of honor. the only two american soldiers that that have been awarded this since the war in vietnam. what they did was after the second hawk helicopter crashed, they were about to be overrun by a large mob and randy and gary volunteer just the two of them to go down from the helicopter on the ground to try to hold off the mob themselves for as long as they could in hopes of a rescue convoy would make it to save them all. ultimately they didn't arrive, both of them were killed along with every member of that crew, except for mhael durant. he said that he feels that he owes his life to randy and dairy. >> howled with a? you have any idea? >> i'm not sure of the top of my head. these men were probably in their early '30s. >> next call? >> caller: thank you very much for having me on the telephone conversation. i was going to talk about the book that was awarded the medal of honor award. another question i should ask you is have you ever pretreat the families of the soldiers who died who have been involved in it, that they should get involved in this point of view in your book? >> i'm afraid i don't understand your question. >> caller: my question is you discussed that you had the point of view with the somalia soldiers that were attacking americans. and you also talked about the soldiers themselves. have you talked about the families -- do you understand? >> just my did understand the family members. at the end of the book, we detail the terrible day for the families spent trying to find out what had happened to their loved ones. in the case of randy shugart and gary gordon, it was noted they were missing but not that they were dead. there were these horrible images of them being dragged through the streets. so we have family members scrutinizing, trying to figure out if they can identify the bodies were that were being dragged through the streets because they had not yet been informed. they didn't know their loved ones were alive or dead. it is just an excruciating time for them. they were very helpful. >> is not anyone's fault but they that they didn't know? >> no, it wasn't. i think that the army army didn't know at that point which one of these were alive or dead. i think that they were two of the best trained soldiers in the american military and they could've lived off of very little. these are the ones that could have dug themselves a hole. they were holding out hope that they were alive. it was leading at odd angles, it is hard to determine who they were. >> who is this? >> this is a staff sergeant and a ranger, about 19 or 20 years old. he got trapped with most of the force in the city overnight. he is now a recording artist in georgia and he has a band called cornbread. and he is a wonderfully creative guy who writes poetry and he sings in his amazing character. >> succulent, your next. >> caller: hello? >> you are on the air, go ahead. >> caller: i'm wondering about this. i read someplace that the same outfits that were part of this are protecting those warlords, that we were going into a meeting in ethiopia, to continue doing what he was doing. i haven't had the comment of that period. >> that is basically correct. we were after him on this mission, this battle was fought on october 3 and 4 between the forces of american soldiers. but the loss of american life in the novel number of casualties were so shocking to the clinton administration and the congress and the american people that their mission was called off. once the mission was called off, they began to form a coalition government, and in fact, the incident that he referred to when they had a peace conference he was afraid for his safety. so he said that the only way that he would be willing to go to it was if americans took him. so it was, although it was an insult, perceived as an insult, by many the american soldiers that fought there just months before, american soldiers escorted him onto a plane and flew him to this meeting in ethiopia and flew him back. >> next call, colorado springs to hello, i would like to make a comment about gary gordon and shugart. they were part of the team. and they committed their bravery as they went in. they knew pretty much that they were going into a situation and they couldn't get out of most things got hairy. >> did you know them? >> no, i did not. but they are both highly regarded in a special operations situation. >> as they should be. as i hope i have made clear in black hawk down, these men can see how hopeless and desperate the situation is becoming on the ground. going from a relatively safe place and stepping into what could mean their deaths and did end up being their depths and it was a very noble and brave sacrifice. >> how many belong to special operations? you have any idea? >> it includes units in the army and navy and marine corps. it is the spearhead, if you will, of the special ops community in the army. there are three squadrons of about 150 man who goes through one of the most arduous selection processes possible. only about one in 10 only succeed in making it. they train constantly, they are very well-funded coming days and more missions than most of us. >> we have another caller from north carolina. hello? >> hello, i'm a covert helicopter pilot and it is a required reading in my squadron to read the philadelphia inquirer articles. it is considereconsidere d by us to be the definitive work on this and this is something the officers are required to read it. >> why do you call it a definitive study and something that is a must read for you? i asked the question because mr. mark bowden said it was not necessarily a totally favorable stories. >> that is part of the reason that it is considered that. you get to see all the inside points. you get to see the good and the bad. there is one other book that we have read called mogadishu heroism and tragedy and i cannot recall the author at the moment. but the accounts we have read, this is the most vivid and most across-the-board account that you can get of an attack helicopter pilot and what is involved in the last part of somalia and of course there were marines have helicopters there in the very beginning. >> how did you make it so vivid using the colors weren't? >> thank you for the question. i appreciate it very much. if the book is good, it's because the men who fought in the battle gave me so much of their time and shared their very candid experiences and talk about things that were embarrassing with them, troubling to them, just as they talked about things they were proud of. i ultimately have talked to more than a hundred men who were involved in this mission, although not all of them wanted to be listed at the end of the book. and i just can't praise them enough or thank them enough for the extraordinary care that they took in entrusting me with the details of their stories. >> what about the actual tactical types of things? >> is by interviewing folks come asking questions, i felt the my ignorance is a pretty good way, kind of like bringing appetite to a meal. i can ask all the stupid questions are only an injured person cannot. and i listen and i ask follow-up questions. >> how important was the tactical side in telling the story? >> it was very important. of course the tactics are still very much under debate today. they were speed and surprise, they don't have armor, they don't have hundreds of backup troops. the idea was to hit the target quickly and get out of the city so fast that the somalis wouldn't have a chance to respond in force. and it probably would've been carried off without any incidents of the black hawk helicopter hadn't been shot down. >> for lack of better words, local spies in the area. what did i create? >> these missions are usually drummed up on fairly short notice. honestly in order to track down an idea in a city that he was once the commissioner of, that he grew up in, has lived in all his life, it's a very difficult assignment. without the cooperation of locals that are willing to spy for the united states and pinpoint him, but you're sort of out of luck. it's a very difficult challenge two on short notice went into being effective in a place like mogadishu. yet i think they did a good job. >> los angeles, you are next. hello. >> caller: hello, i just got out of the army in february and i was assigned the third ranger of the battalion. and i came in after somalia, but a lot of the guys in your book i served with in the company and i would just like to say that your book was very accurate. and i got a chance to talk with a lot of guys that were in your book. and it very much depicted what went on and i thought it was a very good book as far as bringing to life the type of situations we got put in on a regular basis, and we got into problems as it was needed to. >> thank you very much. the enthusiastic support is the most gratifying aspect i think, for me of the story. i think it is also important that even though they may disagree with the policy that sent our troops into action, these are soldiers and they don't make the policy. they are representing you and me, and they may disagree with the politicians who make the decisions, but i think we owe it to them to honor their commitment and courage and sacrifice when they die or put their lives on the line in order to do their duty. >> how do you integrate the policy into this book? >> it was difficult. when i wrote the book in order to tell the story well, i would have to devote a large opening chapter to learn about the history and geopolitics that led up to this battle. i also figured i would have to introduce all of these characters so that when things happen to them in the battle, the reader cares about them. after we do that, we looked at it in a battle with such a compelling and dramatic story that the whole first chapter that i had written just didn't live up it didn't measure up in terms of a purely narrative drive. what i did was break down the opening chapter and i very laboriously found ways to shoehorn the history and background and character development and everything else about the story, sort of into the context of the battle itself. as a writer, for me it always felt like i was really testing the reader's patience whenever i would pull them away from the action and back off for a couple of pages. initially it was a very difficult process. ultimately i think it works much to the book's benefit. because the book is, what i think is a very fast read and an exciting exciting when it does tell you about the history of the context of the battle and the people who are in the story. and i found that my integrating that material, it enabled us to paste the narratives of it wasn't just a constantly unrelenting chain of islands and there were moments when i could pull the reader ask away for a few pages and explain about the territory situation. some of the readers in the book i think haven't even noticed how much of that history and background material is in there, which i think is a tribute to the success i had. >> the successful nonfiction writers today have to dip into some of the tactics of a fiction writer? even quotes and what they might have set the time, versus others? >> they don't have to. but i think that it depends on what you are trying to accomplish. i tried to combine a story that has the authority of history with the excitement of well-written fiction. in order to do that, you do need scenes and dialogue and in this case i was very fortunate in that the audiotapes and radio traffic that tracks a transcript of it. much of it is drawn directly from audiotapes of what was said. which enable me to create real scenes without stretching the truth. it is hard work to do it that way. my favorite nonfiction books of the past 20 or 30 years by those that have been able to do that successfully. >> virginia, you are not. >> caller: i did not serve in small yet, but as a former battalion ranger, i have read your book thoroughly. there are several active duty officers who just absolutely swear by things. there were a couple of my friends who were in somalia, a couple of officers that i know who said that i'm currently reading this and knowing that you have no military background whatsoever, i think you hit the nail on the head with this one. i wanted to say thank you. >> thank you for your call. i think that given the way we are using this in the world these days, the fact that we are sending american soldiers into cozumel, the fact that there has not been many episodes of combat for my whole generation. i grew up a little too young to have fought in vietnam and i have lived through one of the longest peaceful for stretches. i think we tend to forget how terrible combat can be. the persian gulf war was such a swift victory that i think that our military was so technologically sophisticated and powerful that we should go into battle without our soldiers getting hurt or killed. and i think that this is really a cautionary tale that shows that that's not the case. >> the last call from our package in boston. >> caller: hello, my name is patrick balkans. i have a question. how did "black hawk down: a story of modern war" get shot down? >> well, it got hit by what is called a rocket propelled grenade. it is like a hand grenade, it will fly about a thousand feet into the air and it was designed to be shot at kings. it is dangerous to tilt the two up in the air. the somalis were able to shoot so many of these that they started hitting black hawk helicopters with some frequency. in fact, five of them were shot down in this manner. the other three crash landed at the base. >> mark bowden is the author of this book, "black hawk down: a story of modern war." it is coming out is number eight on "the new york "the new york " bestseller list. it is the fifth week on the bestseller list. how much advanced you know what number you will be on with your book in "the new york times"? spirit we find out about a week in advance. >> was exactly? >> it is number nine. >> so goes down one. didn't have any idea how much this means the source or sales are concerned? >> it is wonderfully gratifying to me as a writer. that means the bookstores all over america are part of bestsellers. .. there's a phone number where you can call it order the cd-rom. you can od
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