we get it, it's going to pretty much explain why there are now criminal -- this is now a criminal referral. ed: right. why there will be subpoenas and grand jury as emily was laying out so perfectly earlier. i was watching the top of the show. this is serious business. a lot of people had their eyes glazed over. we heard this report. we heard that report. people have not been held accountable for the origins of the russia probe. finally, john durham, i believe, is the one based on talking to people close to the investigation, who is very no nonsense, nonpolitical, has democrats and republicans on his staff, and is finally looking at this and saying there is something that stinks about how it all started. brian: one thing i'm curious about. number one, do clapper and brennan have to talk? are they going to? evidently they're going to be reluck tantaros witnesses. number three is, i keep going back to the horowitz report, handed to the fbi in february -- september. my goodness, we are almost done with october.
>> yeah, sorry about that, lawrence. i just wanted to add one thing to what the congressman was saying to highlight how -- how courageous these people are because these are -- you know, i was in government for 20 years. part of it as kind of a nonpolitical -- most of it as a nonpolitical type person. these people don't make a lot of money. every time they have to go and testify and they decide to testify, they have to bring lawyers. the foreign service association actually for the first time in living memory, i think, is raising money, is doing a fund-raiser for these people. so that they have the right representation. >> we're going to have to leave it there for this break. congressman raja krishnamoorthi, evelyn farkas, ben rhodes. when we come back, because donald trump has no idea what smart looks like or sounds like, he proudly released a letter today that is the worst written, silliest, most ridiculous letter ever sent by a president to anyone, but it has now cost many people their lives.
and if anything, they have an incentive to be quiet. not to come forward and talk. so it's been interesting watching the decorum in these private settings i think that is actually -- i got to believe that it's -- these folks on the other side of the aisle are seeing the same thing i'm seeing. they may not publicly talk about it the way i am. but i'm hoping that it starts to hit home for some of them. >> evelyn, please go ahead. >> yeah, sorry about that, lawrence. i just wanted to add one thing to what the congressman was saying to highlight how -- how courageous these people are because these are -- you know, i was in government for 20 years. part of it as kind of a nonpolitical -- most of it as a nonpolitical type person. these people don't make a lot of money. every time they have to go and testify and they decide to testify, they have to bring lawyers. the foreign service association actually for the first time in living memory, i think, is raising money, is doing a fund-raiser for these people. so that they have the right representation. >> we're going to have to leave
and you know what else there are? witnesses. including the undisappearable true-life stories of the real public officials, the normal, nonpolitical, technocratic career staff people who were at multiple levels pushed out after raising the alarms about this illegal scheme that the president was carrying out or just refusing to take part in it. marie yovanovitch is due to testify to the impeachment committees tomorrow. fiona hill, top russia aid on the national security council is due to testify on monday. nbc tonight reporting on her intentions on that testimony. both will come under disgusting attack from conservative media and from the president's allies in congress and from the white house. they will come under incredible pressure to try to prevent them from testifying tomorrow and monday. in terms of what happens next here, we'll presumably get
have himself -- fighting this inconvenient people out of their way, there's a paper trail. effort to have him extradited you idiots. i mean "the wall street journal" tonight describing a public document indicating the change inside the white house once they ousted the career people who thought this was illegal and instead installed their own guy. with gordon sondland being shoved to run things in ukraine after they ousted the real ambassador, there's a paper trail there too. we've seen the text messages, right? as i said on the phone i think it's crazy to withhold security assistance for help with a political campaign. this stuff is all written down, because they tried to do these things through the u.s. government. there is a paper trail for all of these things. and you know what else there are? witnesses. including the undisappearable true-life stories of the real public officials, the normal, nonpolitical, technocratic career staff people who were at multiple levels pushed out after raising the alarms about this
these people are shameless. these people will look back on this episode and how the democrats abandon themselves and they will look at it in shame. >> the republicans are in charge of the house and a democratic president. i thought it was frightening and scary and i'm a whistle-blower, i find it was -- it runs to the house of representatives. >> i think people seem to have a different view when the she was on the the other foot. pounding the table and fisting on his robust due process, and they are now nowhere to be heard. >> i am neutral, nonpolitical. i defend the constitution. the original title of my book, the case against impeaching trump was the case against impeaching clinton because i thought she would get impeached if she were elected. i am trying to be absolutely
2020 election. it's purely political and these people are shameless. they will look back on this episode and how the democrats have in themselves how they abandoned the process. they will look at it in shame. >> laura: tom, what happens next time when we have republicans in charge of the house on the democrat president? someone overheard a conversati conversation. i thought it was frightening and scary mimosa blower. runs the house of representatives. what happens then? >> people seem to have a different view when the issue is on the other foot. people are adamant defenders of president clinton pounding the table insisting on his due process. they are now nowhere to be hea heard. >> i defended clinton and i defend the rights of trump. i am neutral, nonpolitical. i defend the constitution. the original title of my book, "the case against impeaching trump" was the case against impeaching hillary clinton because i thought she would get impeached if she were elected. i am trying to be absolutely neutral. g s if i had written a case against
domestic investigation, political or nonpolitical. i just don't think it's a great idea. as a matter of fact, i think it's an awful idea. so i'm not sure that makes it better. was he acting as the attorney to the president, was he acting in some other capacity. he keeps claiming that somebody from the state department told him do it. well, we probably ought to know who that is and under what circumstances. >> he dumped texts. look, rudy is getting a new nickname, which is like the bus driver, because he is throwing everybody under the bus. he threw volker under the bus. he put out texts from volker. great conversation. can't wait to follow up. can't wait to introduce you to this one and that one. so he's not exactly protecting the whole team with what he's doing here, unless rudy is doing what he's always done, when he did it on this show saying i never said there was no collusion with anyone, just the president. if that's the eye that he has and only on that, just to protect the president, what he's doing makes more sense.
about whether people in government stick a shiv in his back. he's in trouble. >> we have new information that rudy giuliani is saying i gave what i had to the white house and the white house gave it to the state department, the secretary of state maybe, we don't know specifically, to look into it. i don't think that makes it better. >> candidly i'm not sure is does either. listen, if there is any forum for investigation, it needs to be through the attorney general of the united states. >> right. >> i'm not sure the attorney general should be looking overseas before looking -- this needs to be a solid domestic investigation, probably 90% of what you need is here domestically. i just never believe it's a good idea to engage our international partners, friend or foes, into a domestic investigation, political or nonpolitical. i just don't think it's a great idea. as a matter of fact, i think it's an awful idea. so i'm not sure that makes it better. was he acting as the attorney to
these materials, it seems like this was an effort to sabotage and to end the career of marie yavanovich, a veteran ambassador and foreign service officer. >> right. >> first, i don't know if you know ambassador ivanovich or if you have any insight into this sort of effort against her. >> i do, and it's disgraceful. she is a distinguished foreign service officer, nonpolitical. she was -- came up through the ranks. she was the ambassador to armenia, appointed under the bush administration. when i became secretary of state, i visited armenia. i know her work. she's a serious level-headed ambassador. a real credit to the foreign service. and so what they did -- and we now know giuliani was actually seeking advice from paul manafort. what they did was to say, okay, what are all the obstacles in our way of trying to peddle these conspiracy theories?