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Against rosenstein would have severe consequences. that was based on the facts that you knew then. does negative in the report that includes a denial change your view tonight, sir? >> absolutely not. as you know, we dont really know what went on. theres one account, theres denials, but heres what we know. we know that the attorney general rosenstein is the lead person in charge of the investigation into the president for colluding with the russians and trying to rig an american election. we know...

Of that at doj during what is an incredible time, brought upon by donald trumps actions, where there was a range of discussions going on. i thought it was notable that mike schmidt whos done this reporting didnt think the wiretap got anywhere, and so whatever it was it wasnt a thing. >> thats a great point. so the reason that the public cant get documents that are pre-decisional under foia, these laws of transparency is because we want people to be able to put out ideas that may not be good idea...

Republican side want to do anything to sabotage this investigation and its highly irresponsible and very dangerous. >> thats very interesting getting your direct response to that and your view of "new york times" story. its more important for what it doesnt say, theres an effort to get rod rosenstein. >> it doesnt allege that anything was done. its clearly part of a pretext to get rid of rosenstein and to sabotage the investigation. >> thats where the big conversation going. we have up on the sc...

But two denials. the latest reads, quote, i never pursued or authorized recording the president and any suggestion that i have advocated for the removal of the president is absolutely false. joining the conversation is new york times justice department reporter katie benner. katie, thanks for being here. i want to start with you to make sure that we have our heads around exactly what were talking about. this is a very critical period of time it seems. its emerging as a critical period of time in...

But, again, it goes back to the mueller investigation. this is where the mueller investigation was brewed from, and it shows you that its underpinnings, frankly, are one of politics and antipathy to the president as opposed to, as i point out, a rule of law approach that was required out of the justice department handling something so sensitive. >> you and i can go back and forth about whether or not the decision to appoint mueller was a lawful one. ive heard this argument that, you know, they d...

On this. its not been clear, "the washington post" is different from "the new york times" and that in turn is different from nbc reporting. so were not exactly sure what happened. there were two meetings involved, being reported on. we dont know what happened in two meetings, one meeting, so on. but lets just take the worst case and say that he did recommend wearing a wire and raised the 25th amendment. it is a clear pretext for trump to act on. whether he acts appropriately or not, i dont know....

Incredible time, brought upon by donald trumps actions, where there was a range of discussions going on. i thought it was notable that mike schmidt whos done this reporting didnt think the wiretap got anywhere, and so whatever it was it wasnt a thing. >> thats a great point. so the reason that the public cant get documents that are pre-decisional under foia, these laws of transparency is because we want people to be able to put out ideas that may not be good ideas, or they want to take back, or ...

Of the justice department handling something so sensitive. >> you and i can go back and forth about whether or not the decision to appoint mueller was a lawful one. ive heard this argument that, you know, they didnt articulate a criminal precedent. there is no requirement for that. you can investigate something where theres a reasonable suspicion that its necessary. i went through all the case law and all that stuff, but thats a pretty subtle discussion. the politics of what motivated it, why ig...

Surprise and drama by the president in early may, mccabe is angry about that. and hes also pressing the deputy attorney general to recuse himself from the investigation because of rosensteins role in the firing of comey. we all remember he wrote this interesting sort of memo laying out the case for why comey had flouted doj protocols in the handling of the hillary clinton e-mail investigation. thats the pretext for why comey has to go. that falls apart when the president mentions russia. in the ...

Witness in that very case. once he wears a wire against the president, hes a witness. >> chuck, part of the reason that this story from "the new york times" is so controversial is other news organizations, including nbc news and the "washington post" have said that they have a source who was inside the meeting where this was reportedly said by rod rosenstein, and in both news organizations report that as you say, as you suggested there, when rod rosenstein made comments about potentially wearing...