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Transcripts For MSNBCW The Beat With Ari Melber 20180806 22:00:00

The day's biggest political and news stories, with interviews and reporting from around the nation. special coverage and handle her own mafia cases. and from the "washington post," an all-star panel, if i may compliment you all. what was your view of rick gates taking the stand? is this a testimonial turning point in the trial? what did you see with your own eye, the tension in the room. >> it was absolutely riveting, ari. i do think it was a turning point. up until now the jury heard from witnesses who worked for mr. manafort and sold him goods, but nobody who knew his state of mind, his motives. gates does that. it was incredible to see mr. gates who worked for paul manafort as his protege to see him walk in that courtroom just 10 feet from the defendant and he did this ritual lisk process boss in charge, with the python jacket, had no clue. the other thing mueller's team has done a good job is to support and protect gates beforehand. every witness who has come to the stand already, the book keeper, the vendors said the same thing. manafort was in charge. manafort knew where every dollar and cent went and the process put on gates and pre-supported in his testimony? >> kathy, your view of the prosecution strategy here? >> i think they had to put him on. there was some discussion about not putting him on the stand. that was a sign the prosecution team thought they had a pretty strong case without him. they have shown some strengths in the case. when they had the accountant say directly, did you have foreign accounts and the answer was, no. they showed foreign accounts, that's pretty hard evidence to him. sure, he's lied, his self-interest now and a self-interested person is to tell the truth. what he needs is a letter from the prosecutes. nothing will tick off a prosecutor more than learning something about the corroborate tore for the first time in cross-examination and why you spend days and days and say, you have to tell me everything in front of the jury that's bad. >> we have been fully living in the trial and legality of that. i wonder if you could widen us out to the potential politics of that. we have all heard how trump supporters may never change their mind. for a guy with a thin mandate, 46%, he can't afford a point or two at all. i wonder if you think there are people in this country who look up and clear the drama and politics and see a legal process with a republican like rick gates saying, i got busted, did this stuff, manafort led it and this is the way we did business and this is who trump put in charge of the campaign, does that at some point catch up with him? >> i think there are three aspects to that. i think it matters. it will be hard to say mr. mueller did not have good reason to be investigating these people. this is not a witch hunt. they didn't confess a stray crime. gates is confessing to a bunch of crimes. they have manafort for a bunch of crimes. and the fact that he's wasting everybody's time will go by the wayside. the second thing i thought was very interesting. liars lie and cheat in big ways and little. one of the things he confessed to was violating the terms of his parole. he was 15 minutes late. supposed to be home at 11:00 p.m. and came home at 11:15. that goes to what your other guests were saying, you have to confess to everything. you want know surprises. the main take away i have is, my gosh, donald trump was surrounded by a bunch of crooks. he was not only in the campaign but in the transition at all. he's the one who says, i only hire the best people. the best people are liars and cheats and embezlers, it is peculiar the people donald trump surrounds himself with. michael cohen, gates. this association of not just one person, a bunch of people committing crimes and being charged and confessing to crimes. these people rub off and looks like a cess pool. trump's desire to work with these people and embrace of them looks really bad. >> i have to ask you, is cess pool a fancy word than swamp? >> it is. swamp goes to business as usual. this goes beyond that, the illegal swamp, stuff not par for the course. above and beyond. it sheds a lot of light on -- remember a few days ago, i know it sounds like years president trump was saying, oh, paul manafort, what a great guy. why are they putting him through this? that's the president of the united states endorsing these guys. it reflects on trump's character and associations he makes and his judgment. i think americans will get an earful in the next few days and weeks and months. >> ken, coming out of the courtroom when this has been a drama series of events, this is still our lead story because it's so important, i wonder if you could tell us a little bit more from your reporting about the tensions with the judge. it's not all good news for mueller, although they say they are methodically moving through this case, walk us through the case and what you glean from that. >> reporter: judge ts ellis is a judge who likes to impose his will on the courtroom. our commentator says some are happy to be umpire and others interjekts himself as shortstop. he stops prosecutors about being leading or compound. the judge tried to rush the prosecutor, greg, and said, let's get to the heart of the matter. the prosecutor responded, we are at the heart of the matter and the judge barked, don't interrupt me, and there was a sidebar. the judge has kept out of evidence of some of this about the lavish lifestyle and luxury goods purchased with allegedly ill-gotten gains. that's been a factor here. even if this jury decides they do not believe rick gates and he collapses on cross examination, we have seen evidence of him with the bank accounts in cyprus and he said he didn't have that. there's no dispute if the bank accounts existed. the only thing was that it wasn't a crime, he didn't intend to violate the law. >> someone from the treasury said, you have to disclose an on for bank account. he did not do that. >> thank you. rosy is live and wants to talk about protesting the white house. and donald trump's stunning admission about the russia meeting, past lives and future strategies. also, we have a trump organization executive. see her there on the screen at trump's side. she worked for him for 20 years and later the one and only rob reiner talking about truth and consequences for lying in american life and culture. live on "the beat" on msnbc. making cars lighter, it's a good place to start, advanced oils for those hard-working parts. fuels that go further so drivers pump less. improving efficiency is what we do best. energy lives here. what might seem like a small cough can be a big bad problem for your grandchildren. babies too young to be vaccinated against whooping cough are the most at risk for severe illness. help prevent this! talk to your doctor or pharmacist today about getting vaccinated against whooping cough. talk to your doctor or pharmacist today with the new chase ink business unlimited card i get unlimited 1.5% cash back. it's so simple, i don't even have to think about it. so i think about mouthfeel. i don't think about the ink card. i think about nitrogen ice cream in supermarkets all over the world. i think about the details. fine, i obsess over the details. think about every part of your business except the one part that works without a thought your ink card. introducing chase ink business unlimited with unlimited 1.5% cash back on every purchase. chase for business. make more of what's yours. with my bladder leakage, the products i've tried just didn't fit right. they were very saggy. it's getting in the way of our camping trips. but with new sizes, depend fit-flex is made for me. introducing more sizes for better comfort. new depend fit-flex underwear is guaranteed to be your best fit. (burke) abstract accident. seen it. covered it.ce music) we know a thing or two because we've seen a thing or two. ♪ we are farmers. bum-pa-dum, bum-bum-bum-bum ♪ already prove these things, the strategy may be to put more of them out first and claim it's all old news later. whatever the strategy, let's focus on facts and ramifications. trump's team's current defense indicates their old defense was false. >> trump junior said in a statement he asked jared and paul to stop by for what the president's son called a short introductory meeting. we primarily discussed a program about the issue of russian children. >> did the issue of adoption -- near and dear to my heart, i have two russian adopted sons. did that come up? >> where? >> that was the primary thing we had spoken about in the meeting. that's not the premise that got them in the room. they started essentially bait and switch to talk about that. >> trump junior there caught on tape accusing others of bait and switch. it's trump's own team admitting they did the bait and switch defending all of this. trump also put his lawyer out in the cold, jay explaining why he put out that false information. >> the president was not involved in the drafting of the statement and did not issue the statement. it came from donald trump jr. i had bad information. it's important to point out in a situation like this, over time, facts develop. >> facts develop and trump infamously crafted the statement with hope hicks. mueller's team interviewed her. she was spotted on air force one again this weekend hours before this new tweet. trump and his son lied in their old defense the meeting was about adoption. that old lie itself could be a crime if anyone told it to federal investigators and attempt to obstruct justice if prosecutors prove they were trying to cover up what happened to authorities. the main reason you have for trumptologically admit any of this now, get ahead of bob mueller if he thinks the truth is coming out any way. i'm joined by nance, the author of "the plot to destroy democracy." this is coming from trump. what is your theory from an investigative perspective why it's coming out now? >> two things i believe. i think there may be a factor to it trump is trying to get out ahead of it. that may have been discussed at a meeting and it popped out. trump has a pattern of speaking we all know. lie, deny and arrogantly confess. we've seen that before when he had his interview with lester holt, he admitted he wanted to fire comey about the russian thing. this really needs a psychologist than national security analyst. i think he was arrogantly confessing in his mind a way to explain away their strategy whatever they were doing there was not illegal. that sounds like a hybrid of guiliani and trump. >> is it bad if they went into the meeting to get foreign help and then attended the meeting trying to get foreign help but ultimately didn't get the help? >> i'm not the perfect analyst on this. i will quote someone who knows it very well. congressman ted lue, a military judge advocate, say, suppose i have two air force airmen and one say, hey, i've been talking to colombian drug lords and they will ship me campaign and we have to have a meeting with them. if the other guy say, if what you're saying is true, i love it. right there they committed conspiracy. that is precisely what mueller and everyone else is saying. i think it's starting to sink into the trump team what happened in conspiracy and they need to talk it away in the court of opinion because that will end up possibly of impeachment hearings. >> the other thing you're familiar with how propaganda and disinformation can be laundered through media and conversation and what we consider a robust civic society like our own. donald trump seems to be trying to not only move the gold post and probe and get a wider group of americans, maybe past his core supporters, look at all of this. this is what's done. take a listen. >> i think from a practical standpoint most people would have taken that meeting. it's called opposition research or even research into your opponent. in the case of don, he listened. i guess they talked about -- as i see it, they talked about adoption and some things. nothing happened from the meeting. zero happened from the meeting. >> how do you draw the line of the communication technique there to this weekend? >> clearly, there's a legal strategy behind that guiliani is behind. create a cloud of doubt and then create a false reality of what is happening. the false reality is no collusion, no collusion. the secondary false reality is none of this is a crime, therefore the president has done nothing wrong and this is just usual. we all know there is a crime. there are actual u.s. codes violated when you commit conspiracy to defraud the united states or essentially rig an election. they are saying, that's not true. you will hear a mountain of people that follow that up. as he makes the propaganda environment it filters to their people and with fox news, create a new reality he might have to face the congress with. >> that's the part i think is fascinating to concerning how people go, it's just about adoption, it's okay. well, they lied about adoption, to get help from russia so okay. final word. next week could be crimes or not crimes out of these guys. i suspect that's where they're going to go. >> malcolm nance following this from the beginning. good to see you in person. straight ahead, rosy o'donnell is leading a trump protest at the white house. hi, rosy. see you in 30 seconds. people who rely on us every day to deliver their dreams they're handing us more than mail they're handing us their business and while we make more e-commerce deliveries to homes than anyone else in the country, we never forget... that your business is our business the united states postal service. priority: you ♪ walk us through what you're doing tonight. why is this important? >> when i watched the helsinki summit and i, too, watched our president abandon our nation and be totally the betrayer that he is, i was horrified working on a showtime movie and i wasn't able to come and join in the protest the last 23 days and we got a hiatus a surprise and asked to get broadway people together to show up and support the people at the kremlin annex protesting 22 nights in a row since that summit where he staked his claim in russia opposed to the united states. >> do you think, rosie, i want to ask you point-blank, do you think this is one of those periods in history you have been proven right, people who may not have given you the ben fingerprint of the doubt and thought you and donald trump had some sort of quote-unquote celebrity feud, have come to learn things about him that reflect a problem with his leadership, why he's not fit for office? has that been a turning point since helsinki? we heard from people across the spectrum that helsinki raised questions whether he should be president. >> he should not be president. i don't think he's a legitimate president, if it weren't for russia he would have won and the reason he's not so panicked about russia, he knows they will try to do what they did in 2016. although the media won't say it yet, they gave him the election. i think the mainstream media is slow coming around to where they actually are. it took you a long time to call him a liar and the man has been lying a long time since in office. helsinki was the last time for a lot of people. forget it, you can't get more blatant than he did right there, swore his allegiance to russia. i'm sickened by congress that doesn't call for impeachment when we have horrible evidence of his high crimes and misdemeanor. it's not that i want to be right, i've never spoken to the man. he was never once on my show when i was making money. i never spoke to him in my life. the way he bombarded me and tried to change what the public opinion was of me with the help of "national enquirer" and fox news is exactly what he's done since he's been in office, to people lifetime civil servants, fbi and cia, our allies across the world. what he did to me was foreshadowing. i know from the last decade, it doesn't feel so good. >> an interesting point you raised i would like to explore with you. this is something we've seen in societies where democracy is in peril, it becomes difficult for the society to deal in facts and policy if powerful people or the leadership turn everything into personal bullying or worse. we've seen that, as you say, with you. we've seen that as a political strategy with potentially of truth teller, if you think james comey tells the truth under oath. we've seen it with the press. i will go back to a low point, tot to be rude, when he was pressed on his treatment of women become more exposed and more problematic, he personally attacked you. let's take a look at that moment from the debates. >> you've called women you don't like, fat pigs, dogs, slobs and disgusting animals. your twitter account -- >> only rosie o'donnell. >> what was he doing there in your view? >> the worst part of that is this huge response. the huge response. he's like a bad comic and gets one line out and talks about it for four months. told everyone. they laughed at that, that was the funniest thing. he was allowed to with help from the mainstream media an msnbc, they ganged up, willie geist was very anti-rosie o'donnell. so was joe scarborough and every reporter on fox. it went on and on. when he lied, and say the show was canceled. the show was not canceled my friend, i left the show and money on the table to go home and parent. he changed it on the fabric of america because i was not on tv to rebut it. people go, i see what she is, i understand what she is. when he was the only one doing it, nobody would stand up to him. they would let him. as if only rosie o'donnell could be only the 700 girls missing from the border, only stormy daniels, only all these mexicans he derides and diminishes every chance he gets. he's a horrible horrible human with no soul. he has a very serious mental distorted. there are so many -- mental disorder. there are so many psychiatrists and he is not mentally stable enough to run this country and every congressman who hasn't filed should lose their jobs. >> it is my practice to let people respond as they want with their own tv shows. >> okay. >> as to the activism. that's how i am. that's the lawyer in me, rosie. with regard to the activism. >> that's good. >> how does it work? that's part of the flip side and we have your record breaking numbers of women running for office and record number of lgbtq candidates. "new york times" has a story on that out. we have seen this uprising and the culture appears to be part of that. what do you think is important in activism to recruit new candidates and particularly young candidates, how do you view that as part of this? >> it is part of it because he is a misogynist man. he denigrates the most vulnerable he considers women not equal to men, you can make fun of them and say they're not appealing to you, as if women want to be appealing to him, my god, i'm so upset, donald couldn't get it up for me? this man is a joke and mainstream media treated him as a legitimate candidate as if they were two equals, him and hillary clinton. come november we will save democracy or lose it. that is the whole thing. if we save democracy and turn the house he's gone. it will take however long it takes to have the impeachment trial, we will start the healing in america and not being on different sides and understand what this man did was unfair and inhumane and even to the people who trusted him the most, heartbreaking. you see these people at these rallies, most paid to be there, screaming he's right and letting the racist deep dark corners of their soul flourish. it's so against everything american, it really is. i hope we can flip this and save democracy. if we can't, i have to believe fascism will take over in america. that will be the death of democracy, this 200 something year old experiment. >> you're worried about the state of our nation and constitutional democracy, we hear that day in and day out. you mentioned the rallies. we have seen terrible acts of hate and bigotry and violence at these rallies and plenty of people who are going to them that are conservative and not racist. we did see a lot of people including the united nations, as you know, we're more accustomed seeing in other countries, the head of the government trying to rile up people against the free press, our first amendment. take a look at this. >> they can make anything bad because they are the fake fake disgusting news. even these people back here, these horrible horrendous people -- >> do you have a concern -- >> when someone die, maybe he will shut up. when someone dies, maybe he will shut up. >> do you think this conduct and language from the president raises a risk of violence in this country? >> without a doubt. he's doing dog whistles everyday and shouting out to people who try to fight off their own internal racism, he's encouraging them. when he goes after lebron james, are you kidding me, the day after he opens a school in ohio. it's crazy to me. someone will get hurt and die. someone did. heather died at one of those rallies. how many people will have to die before we realize what a horrible bully pulpit he has. no president has ever used it the way he has. it's been a disgrace to democracy, our standing in the world, what america is about and return to being as soon as he is out. ari, i'd love to ask you, if you could -- >> go ahead. >> is to take on the case of reality winner. no mainstream winner will take her case on, a young girl who warned all of us, a patriot, served in the armed forces, said russia hacked our election. you know where she is? in jail. you know who else? no one. just reality winner, a 20 something-year-old girl. i don't know why it's not national news. >> that goes to something i want to ask you about. you and some folks you work with are very critical of the media, television media in the trump phenomenon, something we're more accustomed to more on the right week criticisms of liberal media and mainstream media, i noticed you used that term as well. what do you think is important for someone like this that strives for attention and your narrative you argue beat the video game in 2016. what do you want to see different, as a final question? >> i'd like you to stop covering his rallies. number one, there's no reason to cover his rallies. all he does is lie and threaten violence and threaten journalists and other world leaders. i don't think you should cover his rallies at all and denounce fox news. when someone sits across from you and calling it a mistruth, or you didn't understand it, say, you're lying. i hope on the lawn i "meet the press" corps and say, do what jim acosta did, stand up and walk out. that's the only way we are going to change it. they're lying so much and nobody seems to care anymore. you have to care and bring a whistle to the white house correspondents and blow it every time she says something that's a lie pretty much the entire conference. >> as we're hearing your remarks, we're looking at live pictures of the protest you're leading in front of the white house. rosie o'donnell, appreciate you coming on "the beat" and ready to hear from you any time. >> any time. i have my rap quotes ready for you. if you don't know now you know. >> a little boogie small. >> why trump is changing his tune and why it is a lie and speak to a former trump executive about whether business as usual would have been in the loop business ahead. e that♪ ♪something's got a hold on me, yeah♪ ♪oh, it must be love ♪oh, something's got a hold on me right now, child♪ ♪oh, it must be love ♪let me tell you now, oh it must be love♪ ♪ keep it comin' love. if you keep on eating, we'll keep it comin'. all you can eat riblets and tenders at applebee's. now that's eatin' good in the neighborhood. your hair is so soft! did you use head and shoulders two in one? 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(vo) ask your health care provider about tresiba®. covered by most commercial health insurance and medicare part d plans. where we're changing withs? contemporary make-overs. then, use the ultimate power handshake, the upper hander with a double palm grab. who has the upper hand now? start winning today. book now at lq.com. back pain can't win. now introducing aleve back and muscle pain. only aleve targets tough pain for up to 12 hours with just one pill. aleve back & muscle. all day strong. all day long. and i am a senior public safety my namspecialist for pg&e. my job is to help educate our first responders on how to deal with natural gas and electric emergencies. everyday when we go to work we want everyone to work safely and come home safely. i live right here in auburn, i absolutely love this community. once i moved here i didn't want to live anywhere else. i love that people in this community are willing to come together to make a difference for other people's lives. together, we're building a better california. the top story tonight is the exposure in the trump tower meeting with the russians. donald trump's bombshell meeting. he claims he didn't know about it. when did he learn about it? is it even plausible given what we've learned and come out there was this significant meeting in trump tower and he was out of the loop. we like to go to people who have reason to know. you see barbara who worked for trump inside that very tower, a top executive for 20 years and joins me now. the author of "all alone foreign the 68th floor," an evening of powerful guests, if i say so myself and add you to the roster. thanks for being here. my pleasure. >> based foreign your knowledge how donald trump works and the trump organization functions, do you think this ongoing defense is plausible and probably true or implausible and probably false? >> based my experience, it is not true. other people not high enough for donald to attend we discussed them beforehand and often told us what to say and ask. >> what many of us have in common with donald trump is haggling. who wants to pay full price? am i right? talking about that in details. take a look. >> when people come in to buy something, especially very rich people, they see details. if something's wrong, they see it and it reflects in the price. that's why i'm up early in the morning to check every detail of my construction sites. >> what is that? >> can you haggle without details and brag in a public speech, as he did, he would have new dirt on clinton if he wasn't into the details? >> that occurred to me at the time and a few days later we learn learned about the meeting, absolutely. >> what do you recognize it as. he clearly wants to help his son, widespread reporting he's worried mueller could indict his son. i will tell you and give you my analysis and yours, if you are in trouble for the criminal mindset of obstructing a probe and do things that reveal more of your mindset you're not helping your son, potentially hurt him. >> you would say that and that would be the normal reaction. that's not how trump thinks. he thinks he can do everything and control every situation. that's what he's doing, exercising control. >> do you think in trying to seize that control he's losing control? >> i think ultimately he will be losing control. i don't see it right now. some people are saying yes, other people looking at the situation wondering where we're going to go with mueller and what will happen. we have to stay tuned. >> we will stay tuned, barbara, someone there in the building, thank you so much for sharing your experience with us. next up, the filmmaker and increasingly political activist, rob reiner. right after the break. ♪ experience the versatility of utility, with a range of suvs perfect for any adventure, at the lexus golden opportunity sales event. experience amazing at your lexus dealer. if you have moderate to thsevere rheumatoid arthritis, month after month, the clock is ticking on irreversible joint damage. ongoing pain and stiffness are signs of joint erosion. humira can help stop the clock. prescribed for 15 years, humira targets and blocks a source of inflammation that contributes to joint pain and irreversible damage. humira can lower your ability to fight infections, including tuberculosis. serious, sometimes fatal infections and cancers, including lymphoma, have happened; as have blood, liver, and nervous system problems, serious allergic reactions, and new or worsening heart failure. before treatment, get tested for tb. tell your doctor if you've been to areas where certain fungal infections are common, and if you've had tb, hepatitis b, are prone to infections, or have flu-like symptoms or sores. don't start humira if you have an infection. help stop the clock on further irreversible joint damage. talk to your rheumatologist. right here. right now. humira. you might or joints.hing for your heart... but do you take something for your brain. with an ingredient originally discovered in jellyfish, prevagen has been shown in clinical trials to improve short-term memory. prevagen. healthier brain. better life. and packages. and it's also a story about people. people who rely on us every day to deliver their dreams they're handing us more than mail they're handing us their business and while we make more e-commerce deliveries to homes than anyone else in the country, we never forget... that your business is our business the united states postal service. priority: you ♪ he was lying about the trump tower meeting was so brazen and so dramatic, it could be a hollywood movie confession seen, and that's why i'm joined by filmmaker and activist rob reiner, who knows his way around a plot. first, let's look at the context. just last year, donald trump said his son's meeting with the russians was only about russian adoption. then this weekend, he comes out and says no, it was to get information on an opponent. foreign information could be a crime. in other words, trump is telling everyone he was lying. this is the kind of moment you rarely see where a main character, if you will, a protagonist, admits they were lying. something we have even seen in rob reiner's own films. >> it means to bluff. so you're probably playing cards and he cheated. >> liar. liar. liar. >> you want answers. >> i think i'm entitled. >> you want answers. >> i want the truth. >> you can't handle the truth. >> the movie was about 80% accurate and 20% bull, which i guess by hollywood standards is an accomplishment. >> accomplishment. rob reiner is there, the director of a few good men as well as "shock and awe" which deals with government lies. thanks for being here. >> my pleasure. >> lies. >> yes. >> why do people admit them and keep getting away with them in plots, including potentially this american plot? >> well, they get away with them in plots until somebody uncovers the lie, and that becomes a big focal point of the story. when all of a sudden the story flips because the lie is exposed. we are having an experience with a guy who lies all the time. >> constantly. >> constantly lies, and is lying right to our face. and we have not as yet gotten to that point where those lies become the plot twist that flips and nails him. there's something that was told to me, when we were doing the case against proposition 8, which was to establish marriage equality. one of the lawyers says to me, you know, you can say whatever you want on television. but the minute you go into a courtroom and you put your hand on a bible, and swear to tell the truth, you have to tell the truth. that's the reason why this president, who is a pathological liar, is not going to talk to robert mueller. he is incapable of telling the truth, but at a certain point, he's going to hit the wall where the truth and reality are going to come smack him upside the head, and he's going to have big problems. big, big problems. >> sorts of an oops upside your head moment. >> it's going to be the biggest political plot twist you'll have ever seen in the history of this country, because you have a guy lying, by the way, admitting to crimes all over the place. everybody in this administration is committing crimes and admitting to it, but at a certain point, they're going to be held accountable. the first step is for us to take back the house and start having the right kind of hearings that will get the truth out. then ultimately, over time, people hopefully will come around to accepting the truth because if we don't, then we don't have democracy anymore. >> i wonder in your view about a character who knows they're lying versus doesn't care and doesn't keep track of it. we showed "a few good men" where what is so unrealistic, what rarely happens in a courtroom, no offense, is a bit of what donald trump does on twitter where someone says, you know what. everything i said was bull. i was lying. now i'm saying this, which raises the question, why would we believe you now? take a look at donald trump lying based on what we have been able to figure out about his well known and documented practice of pretending to be another person, his spokesperson, which is a lie, and then he lies about it. take a look at this from the "today" show. >> john barron, here we go. >> i think you can really use donald trump now, and i think last year, somebody showed me the article. i think he had 200 and 200. >> it was not me on the phone, it doesn't sound like me, and it was not me on the phone. >> okay, so first of all, it was him on the phone. and when i heard this, this was during the campaign. i learned about this, this habit that he has of going on and talking as this guy john barron, or one of these other characters. i thought to myself, this guy is certifiably insane. because think about this for a second. who do you know that gets on the phone and pretends to be somebody else on this kind of level and talks to a journalist to get information out. that's insane. that's insanity. and i thought when i heard that, how can that guy be president? how are we going to allow a person who does a thing like that become president of the united states? and, you know, it happened. but that's as crazy -- that's kind of beyond pathological. there's some kind of mental illness that allows for something like that to happen. >> we don't know at a distance. we know he's caught on tape, the tape plays. and he has the ability to just say that wasn't me or in this weekend's version, admit to his supporters, i was lying the whole time, and i want people to stay with me on that. >> yeah, well, i think, you know, he has a certain cult of followers, for whatever reason, they're going to follow him, but he has no problem lying. it's transactional. does it help him to lie to that guy and say about donald trump on the phone? yes. does it help him to lie to say that wasn't donald trump? yes. whatever is going to help him at that moment, that's what he does. and he doesn't care about the, you know, the ramifications of it. >> and with 15 seconds to go,

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lawyers watching all of this? >> they are watching it closely. attorneys for trump and other defendants were in the courthouse yesterday. they want to know if someone like mark meadows is able to do this, that bodes well for former president trump, may bode well for jeffrey crash lark who was e justice department at that time. >> and they grilled meadows about that famous or infamous i should say trump/raffensperger phone call in which you have the former president, at the time the current president, literally saying on tape find me the votes to overturn the election here. did that give the cross-examination give any view as to what the prosecution strategy is here? because the other thing trump's lawyers are watching is how exactly are they going to go at this case. >> it certainly shed light on what meadows' defense will be. he is saying i did all this in the capacity of my job and basically everything that i did even if it wasn't related to trump's official policy or the

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but they are good people everywhere. >> reporter: the icc prosecutor is talking about the most severe cases, which were often in state-run institutions in occupied parts of ukraine. that were then whisk ed away frm those areas and in some cases given russian citizenship and given to russian parents. that appears to be the crux of the icc's prosecution strategy, but of course, the likelihood of putin showing up in the hague is basically zero. >> really touching report there, david mckenzie in kyiv. thank you for that. i want to turn to istanbul for more on russia's reaction. as i mentioned earlier, moscow has been dismissive. what more can you tell us? >> reporter: dismissive is certain ly the word to describe

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housekeeper testified two months after the crime are, the department made a point of telling her he wore a different shirt the day of the crime than the one she remembered. >> mr. alec came over and inquiring of you what shirt he had on that day, is that correct? >> it didn't feel like he was inquiring, it felt more like he was trying to convince me of the shirt he was wearing. >> the other part of the prosecution strategy, that murdaugh killed his wife and son to distract and delay investigations into allegations that he was stealing money. and his boat crash that killed mallory beech subjected murdaugh to a multi-million dollar lawsuit that threatened to expose his finances, a month after paul and maggie's murders, a family friend gave alec a ride to the airport and says the defendant mentioned the lawsuit. >> he said that he would like

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declined to answer our questions about them, only engaging on things like whether or not ilhan omar should be kicked off the foreign affairs committee, not on substantive scandals having to do with him and him at the center of them. >> this isn't the only thing, obviously, we've talked about an fec complaint, we've talked about reports of a doj criminal investigation. i wonder how you look at sort of this overall picture, what his liability is. could there be a prosecution strategy to efficiently, at least initially focus on a lesser charge like a go fund me scheme in an attempt to get the defendant to agree to a plea ahead of more serious charges? >> reporter: yeah, it's hard to know what is happening behind the scenes because of course the justice department, the fbi don't broadcast their investigations. but if this report is true that the veteran has provided, the fbi's asking questions, it seems appropriate to me they need to ask questions before they can determine whether crimes were committed. and although this particular

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my good friend joyce vance is a former u.s. attorney and professor at the alabama school of law. a co-host of the sisters in law podcast. and legal analyst, joyce. because apparently you don't do enough. let's start with the prosecution strategy not. case trump adjusted to the, move moving for a mistrial, in fact. saying that -- has no tropical conspirator. prosecutors say they are clearly allowed to talk about the co during a case about a company. what do you think of the move the prosecution to go after trump like this, is a way to doing until closing arguments? >> katie, you, know like i do, that prosecutors are entitled to respond to allegations the defendants making in trial. here, one of the turning points in this case, it is a smart strategy, has been to focus on allen weisselberg. the trump ceo, who has already pled guilty to these charges.

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by the post office. i think there was. i think all the evidence points to the fact that in 2013, the post office board knew it had a serious problem not just with its it system but with its prosecution strategy over the first 13 years of this century. they prosecuted people at the rate of one a week and legal advice came to their attention which made it apparent that some of those prosecutions, many of those prosecutions, could be unsafe. around that time, they did a secret investigation into their it system which raised all sorts of problems within the it system. yet, at the same time, the post office head of security, this came out in court of appeal last year, ordered the shredding of documents in relation to problems with horizon it system. the post office then went through a period of denial whilst journalists were starting to pick up the story between 2013 and 2019. and it was only during high court litigation, where alan bates, the head of thejustice for sub—postmasters alliance and 500 other sub—postmasters put a group litigation together

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this trial. >> one aspect "the new york times" reported in terms of the prosecution strategy that they might try to go after r. kelly partly by having a number of his -- of the people testifying against him, his accusers say they had unprotected sex with him and he did not warn them that he was positive for a sexually transmitted infection specifically that he had herpes. how might that factor into this? >> well, the jury in illinois and federal court has already heard from r. kelly's physician. he testified r. kelly had been diagnosed with herpes a number of years ago. that is the same sexually transmitted disease a number of r. kelly victims are claiming that they did not know they had, and it only happened -- they were diagnosed after they had sexual intercourse with r. kelly. again, it's this idea there's this causal effect. r. kelly caused this. if you're the prosecution part of what you're trying to do though is convince this jury r. kelly is a bad guy, and that

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politics and not about anything he did wrong. what do you want people to know? >> anybody that have been thinking about that, or says that, has no interest in really knowing what the truth is. because i mean, you have seen it. he has demonstrated it by things he admits to. when i talked about how brilliant he was that he used the tax code. i'm so brilliant. what is does he know, that the tax code was used and he does not know this part of the tax code being used. i would tell them to read my book. but i would tell them, just get real. >> he will well, we will know more about the charges and understand whether or not this, where this seems in terms of a prosecution strategy. they are under seal. but things rarely stay quiet. ly elliott williams, thank you very much. barbara rez appreciate the personal perspective as well. >> another big story breaking on our watch.