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leadership criticisms for this president that we know about, let's be clear and fair. anger, ego, incompetence, that's not enough. the higher bar here is corrupt intent in a person's mind. so mueller is saying, like any careful prosecutor, he must question trump before he can conclude his work. and tonight trump's lawyers are leaking their new ongoing negotiations with mueller to show that as of tonight, they're not accepting this full interview yet. so they're using two tactics. leaking information with their new letter to mueller about a kind of a narrower counteroffer, and also talking to each other, these lawyers, in a radio call-in show, an appearance that can only be described as another bizarre chapter in one of the most bizarre live action legal defenses of a president in our history. we give you the unusual scene this morning. rudy giuliani joining trump lawyer jay sekulow on sekulow's radio show where they also took questions from listeners. >> is there a deadline that
you're trying to hit in responding to the special counsel? >> look, we don't have an internal deadline. mayor, i know you've said and i've said we want to see this come to closure soon here. mayor? >> yeah, we do. yeah, it's about time that it ends. we do not want to run into the november elections. so back up from that. this should be over with by september 1st. >> trump's lawyers, using their public profiles on a radio show to leak their negotiations in realtime and create more media content. that is what's happening right now. now here was their discussion of the big enchilada, the trump interview. >> if there's going to be an interview, let's have it. he's got all the information he needs. the interview will provide nothing in addition to what he already has. so he can write his report. we have been willing to say here's the answer he will give and we'll be stuck with it. >> and of course the question will be, look, we have an ongoing dialogue with the office of special counsel in a
professional manner. >> it went on like that. we try to be as fair as possible here, but what i'm about to say does sound negative about mr. giuliani. the fact is he's a former federal prosecutor. when he claims a prosecutor does not need to interview key subjects of a probe under oath, he knows he's not telling the truth. he knows that's absurd, and he knows there must be some other reason they want to shield their client, donald trump, from going in and telling the truth about what he did or didn't do. now, this isn't exactly a spoiler, but bob mueller doesn't do radio call-in shows so he won't be leaking in realtime his response to what looks like an escalation in these negotiations. but we do know if mueller terms as a legal matter that this interview is necessary and the white house won't provide it at the scope that he believes is legally required, mueller has the option of taking this president to court, a fight that all expect would go all the way
up to the supreme court where trump is currently trying to install a hand-picked judge known for his skepticism of the power of prosecutors like bob mueller. so let's get to it. i'm joined by l.e. honig, joyce vance and mike lupica. i'll begin with you. you've tried many cases and been around many cases. have you ever seen live leaks of interview negotiations on a call-in show. >> no, i've never seen anything like it. i think what's happening is there's a chess game getting under way. rudy giuliani is making these demands on conditions for an interview that are really just outrageous. he wants written questions. i've done hundreds of witness interviews. i've never once submitted a written question. it defeats the whole purpose. you need to size the person up. you don't just want their lawyer to turn out some lawyerly
response. certain areas are out of bounds. >> well, in a lot of cases there's what's called interrogatories which are the kind of low stakes written question thing that nobody considers as serious as a real interview. >> exactly, they're formalities. it's no substitute for sitting across from someone and sizing them up. >> and i believe, mike lupica, if you could work on a lyric about interrogatories, you have one minute. you get a minute. no, you work on it. i'm coming to you in a minute. i want to give you a heads-up. >> i'm ready. >> i don't think mueller is going to agree. mueller has been at this longer than me. if mueller doesn't agree, the thing that giuliani knows full well is mueller has the leverage here. if mueller doesn't like the terms, he'll hit him with a subpoena and then we're in courts. here's where i think the play is in doing this silly radio staged show today, if it goes to the courts, it's going to drag on up to and through the midterms, and i think that the purpose of today's show was to allow
giuliani to say, see, we wanted to do this but mueller took us to court and he's politicizing this right before the midterms. >> i want to be clear. you're suggesting that jay sekulow live has a purpose. i don't know that we've been able to confirm that yet, mike lupica. i don't know that that radio show has a purpose or not, all respect given. i want to play a little bit more from, again, the bizarre interactions on this show with callers and then your response, mike, take a look. >> the taxpayers have been paying for this so-called special investigation that is clearly biased against our president. >> i have never heard of a case run by an fbi agent who displayed hatred for the person that he was looking at. mueller didn't find out about it, it had to be presented to him. and then he stayed with the fbi for another year. it's ridiculous. >> mike, beyond the evident catharsis of screened callers
held back. this is sort of the person at the bar except it's at mueller's office. hold me back, hold me back, i really want to fight. sometimes people asking to be held back don't want to fight. and the fight with words sitting down under oath with bob mueller is not a problem if you don't necessarily have anything to hide and you can carefully accurately answer questions. as for where it all leads, joyce, we did a little digging and want to show, all jokes aside about the call-in show, we are headed towards a potential real interbranch conflict. the last time this escalated, it didn't go all the way to the court because bill clinton did back down under subpoena. take a look. >> the president has been subpoenaed by the independent counsel. >> his lawyers back in washington were preparing to negotiate with independent counsel kenneth starr for his testimony. >> he's said to be insisting on the right to question the president in person. >> the president will testify about his relationship with a former intern under oath and on tape for the grand jury.
>> joyce. >> so interesting to remember and i think important to remember that every version that we have of what mueller wants in this regard comes from rudy giuliani or other members of the president's team. robert mueller isn't telling us whether or not he wants to interview the president nor has he revealed his hand as to whether he might use a subpoena if the president doesn't agree to one. and i think it's really important for us to remember that, because federal prosecutors very often don't get to interview targets or even subjects in cases. but back to the point that you make, ari, it's very telling when an individual doesn't want to be interviewed voluntarily, particularly when they're maintaining their innocence and saying that they're merely a witness in the case, no obstruction, no collusion. well, if not, why not go ahead and submit to the interview. it's only a perjury trap if you intend to lie, after all. >> yeah, i agree. look, there's a very easy way to avoid a perjury trap, which is
don't commit perjury. i don't think mueller will walk away, i really don't. there's already been reporting that he intends to do this interview. he needs to do this interview for the reasons you said. trump has stated his intent every which way. he's taken both sides, five sides of every issue, so he needs to be pinned down and put on record in a way he can't squirm away from. the only real way to do that is by an interview or in the grand jury. >> right. i want to revisit some of the questions here, joyce, that did leak, as you say from the white house side but were fact checked by "the new york times" and special counsel didn't object to these as being on the money. when did you become aware of that trump tower meeting. the discussions about any of these meetings with putin. the knowledge or outreach including manafort, who's on trial right now, to russia about this assistance to the campaign and then of course communications between roger stone, associates, julian assange, wikileaks. fascinating that last bullet because we're covering whether assange will speak out in any capacity. there's a lot of legal reasons to be dubious about charging
websites, publishers or platf m platforms in the united states. that's not typically done. but what does that line of questioning tell you and also roger stone be risky for the president? >> mueller is clearly looking at both obstruction of justice but also still at what we've come to call collusion, this idea of conspiracy to defraud the united states. and it looks from this list of questions like the president is either to believed to be either a very central witness or perhaps a subject or a target. of course we all know that mueller won't really indict the president, but he could write a very damaging report that would go up to the hill discussing the president's participation in all of these efforts vis-a-vis russia. if this reporting is in fact correct and these are the topics that mueller wants to question the president about, he's seeking to answer these fundamental questions of what did the president know, when did he know it and what did he do? and that makes it look like the
president is a target more than anything else. >> right. and that's what we keep going back to is what is his exposure. if the lawyers want to take the position that is a potential target who needs fifth amendment or other types of protection, they could take that. instead they are clearly baiting mueller along, saying this is taking too long, while they won't make the move that will decide whether it's going to go to court or not. mike, did you have any lyrics before we go? >> well, i was just thinking that trump is probably in a kendrick lamar situation. all we ask is trust, all we got is us. but then you see those two lawyers on the radio show and you think if that's the quality of the defense, he might be screwed. >> elie? >> i'm going a little older with don't ask why, i've got my own reasons. tribe called quest. >> that by the first tribe bars on "the beast." i was think we all talk more about tapes, vintage 50 cent.
i do what i want, the d.a. can play this tape in court. my special thanks to elie honig. joyce and mike stay with me. as we mention, the tapes, omarosa recording trump inside the white house. the reporter who broke the story. also the republican member of congress who endorsed trump first. indicted tonight. we'll bring you his side of the story. and now the news that the russia probe could turn to julian assange. i have an exclusive with one of these people in the united states who's interviewed assange and stays in touch with him. i'm ari melber and you're watching "the beat" on msnbc. ♪ when i touch you like this
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if you live like a reality show and you govern like a reality show, you have to be prepared for your reality show staff to go full reality show on you. "the daily beast" now reporting the infamous former "apprentice" star omarosa secretly recorded conversations with president trump at the white house. conversations played for people while pushing her new tell-all book called "unhinged." this echos a promise she did make the day after being ousted. >> as the only african-american woman in this white house, as a senior staff and assistant to the president, i have seen things that have made me uncomfortable, that have upset me, that have affected me deeply and emotionally, that has affected by community and my people. and when i can tell my story, it is a profound story that i know
the world will want to hear. >> everybody wants to hear the story, and she has been slowly teasing it out. she went on "celebrity big brother" and described a kind of a haunted feeling in the white house. >> like i was haunted by tweets every single day. like what is he going to tweet next. it was bad. >> should we be worried? don't say that. >> should we be worried? another question is should we be whispering? anyway, this isn't the first time we have heard about secret audio tapes. michael cohen, famously taped the president. we've already heard some of those already leak. >> you never know where that company -- you never know where he's going to be. >> if he gets hit by a truck. >> correct. i'm all over that. i've spoken to alan about that when it comes to the financing. >> what financing? >> we'll have to pay --
>> pay with cash? >> no. no, no, no, no, no. >> this is a big scoop and the person who wrote the scoop, "daily beast" locklan markee is with us. what do you see as the significance of this story? >> we spoke to three sources, one of whom has heard this recording and two have had the contents described to them. it's nothing quite so incriminating as the michael cohen recordings, but i think it does point to a major breach of trust by someone who is very close to the president, very close to the first family, and really tells everyone that she meets about how much the president trusts her. and, you know, the president did like her and she was very close to that sort of inner circle of aides and family members. so for her to be secretly recording conversations with the president points to a major breakdown in trust. now that she's marketing a book suggests that she's sort of had her eye towards those post white
house plans for quite some time. >> yeah. another clear implication is that if you're recording the president, you're talking to the president. that would appear to contradict the cover story they gave, which has been a familiar to many departing aides who the white house has tried to play down their actual role. take a look. >> omarosa was fired three times on "the apprentice" and this is the fourth time we let her go. she had limited contact with the president while here. she has no contact now. >> that word "limited contact," as you know most people who work in an administration have literally zero conversations with the president. these tapes would suggest that she had more contact than the white house let on. >> well, i do think she had less contact than she felt she was entitled to, given her long history with the president, and in fact that's what really led to her downfall at the white house was this scene where she, as it was described to us, stormed the white house residence in an attempt to confront the president about
aides that she felt were undermining her and shutting her out. there was a concerted effort by chief of staff john kelly to really limit access to the president in the oval office. so i think she probably had a lot more access early on in the white house, saw that diminish. that really upset her and it ended with her being escorted off the white house grounds for trying to literally confront and call out the president for that. >> mike, you saw the important recording that we garnered from "celebrity big brother" in the introduction to the segment and i want to play for you some earlier omarosa because it's not like any of this couldn't have been predicted when it goes to donald trump's judgment about who he wants to let in run the government, be paid by our tax dollars and have access to all sorts of private interactions. this is a person who has prided herself and mr. trump on settling scores. take a look. >> every critic, every detractor will have to bow down to president trump.
it's everyone who's ever doubted donald, who ever disagreed, who ever challenged him. it is the ultimate revenge to become the most powerful man in the universe. >> to state the obvious, which is part of my job these days, mike, being entrusted with the nuclear codes and leading the united states is an act of public service, is not supposed to be chiefly thought of as a chance for personal revenge. >> he sure can pick 'em, can't he? where does he find these people? he's obsessed with building a wall. he needs to build one around the oval office because, ari, how far are we from people getting patted down before they go in and sit down and cross the desk from him? >> yeah, and so do you think there is something here, mike, that's larger than omarosa and all of the attendant drama in her book promotion and the rest? >> yeah. i think he -- i think they don't trust him. we constantly hear how the most
important thing to this president is loyalty. okay? but you tell me where we can find it these days. cohen, omarosa, and i don't think these are the last times we're going to hear about people taping this guy. i think eventually there's going to be a conga line of people coming forward to say, no, no, listen to mine first. >> lochlan, how do you go about reporting something like this out and we're not just promoting her book. what do you think is significant for the type of decisions donald trump has made and also when you go into this what has been described by others and even a lot of serious people as a really tense environment in the white house where everyone is lawyered up and worried about tapes, we still have a government that needs to be staffed and run. do you see an implication here for the quality and the type of people who are brought into this white house? >> well, i think from the very beginning there's been a sense of sort of a lack of solidarity, whether it was between the
various sort of camps that split into opposing factions from very early on to folks sort of accusing each other of leaking as a way of settling personal scores or getting in the president's good graces. in fact we got an advance copy of an excerpt of omarosa's book in which she recalls assembling a list of alleged leakers at ivanka trump's request that then communications director anthony scaramuccitasked with firing. one of them was fired. one of the larger excerpts and this larger story of omarosa recording these conversations is just a total lack of trust between the people who work in the white house. it's very difficult to form coherent policy or messaging when nobody trusts each other all the way up to the president and his tighten inner circle of aides. >> i think that's well put and again that goes to who's in charge and their obsession with leaks and media.
granted, we are part of covering things, but their obsess covering it is really notable and it comes on a day when the other folks, the lawyers, are doing their own radio tour instead of their work. it's a remarkable situation that shouldn't be completely normalized, even though it is a daily thing. thanks with the big scoop for joining us and mike lupica doing double duty. straight ahead, donald trump's first congressional endorser, chris collins, charged with insider trading and lying to the fbi. we have the story when we're back in just 30 seconds. this il and packages. and it's also a story about people. people who rely on us every day to deliver their dreams they're handing us more than mail they're handing us their business and while we make more e-commerce deliveries to homes than anyone else in the country, we never forget... that your business is our business the united states postal service.
priority: you ♪ breaking news tonight and it is a shocker to many. donald trump's first congressional endorser arrested and charged in a new criminal scheme. we're just learning the details. his name, chris collins, a new york republican congressman. he will speak for the first time on this tonight. he was arraigned today on these new charges of insider trading and lying to the feds. now, what is alleged here is that collins was using secret information, sharing it with other people to help basically his friends and family save hundreds of thousands of dollars with illegal trades off that secret intel. now, politically the context here matters. he was the first congressman to endorse donald trump, widely known as trump's man on the hill. you can see them together at a white house picnic in june. and endorsing trump in 2016.
>> donald trump as president is the man to make america great again. we need to elect a chief executive, not a chief politician. he is the best negotiator i've ever seen or met. >> mimi rocah joins me, a former federal prosecutor in the southern district of new york where these charges of filed today, and joyce vance, also a former federal prosecutor experienced in these kind of cases and we benefit from her expertise here as well. let's talk about what it means to charge a member of congress with insider trading, all equal before the law but it is more complex than a garden variety finance case. >> yes. but i think it's important to note that obviously the charges are not connected to his position as congressman. but i do think it's important to note his position because jeff berman, the u.s. attorney who brought these charges, in the press release and at the press conference noted it. he said this is a man who's charged with writing these nation's laws and he thought he
was above those laws. i think that's a really good point. this is someone who, you know, is not trading on information he got as a congressman, but while in that position of trust with the american people, he's blatantly violating the securities fraud law. >> right. and this is not a legal term of art, but he is an elite. this is not someone who got mixed up in something and seems somehow unsophisticated or taken for a ride. this is someone who, as you say, while it's not germane exactly to the case, when you build a case for jurors if it goes that far, you're saying a betrayal of public trust, a person who knew better, wrote the laws which can go to their state of minding and someone who basically is an insider and charged with insider trading. >> and he sat on the board of directors, he held a lot of stock. it's interesting because it reminds me of donald trump in the sense that we've been talking about how donald trump seems willing to flout the law in plain view.
this wasn't in plain view but it was pretty close. it wasn't under the table either. i mean they were doing this over e-mail acti e-mail, on the phone. this was not a smart insider trading scheme. it seemed very brazen. >> you're saying they were not very fertive. >> yes. >> and you think that means what, arrogance, stupidity? >> stupidity, i think. it goes back to he thinks he's above the law and he's not going to get caught. clearly the southern district has put together a really lock, stock and barrel case here. you can see that just from the indictment. it looks like they have people who are cooperating, because they seem to have the content of some calls, though i don't think there's a wiretap. they have the paper trail that you need for an insider trading case like this. it seems like a very strong case. >> joyce, take a listen to donald trump praising him. we report a lot on when donald trump says things that are false or provable lies. here this seemed like donald trump being very candid in admitting that he doesn't have any strong feeling about chris
collins and didn't know much about him, but when he learned that chris collins liked him and was endorsing him, that changed his feelings. take a look. >> congressman chris collins. where's chris, where's chris. oh, chris, right from the beginning he said trump is going to win. trump is going to win. that's why i like him. i didn't like him that much before, now i love him. >> a little bit of an old school jay z attitude, either love me or leave me alone. donald trump loving the love. how does this work legally when you have this very close political relationship and we've seen the way the white house has distanced itself from its own former campaign aides in the mueller probe? >> it won't take long for collins to be the newest coffee boy, someone who trump didn't know well, he didn't stick around for very long. but the implications of this indictment i think are very interesting. along with collins, his son is indicted, his son's fiancee's
father is indicted. as mimi correctly points out, the government appears to have a very strong case. so there will be pressure on collins to plead. and the interesting question that's on the table is what can he offer up to the government? could he, for instance, have interesting information about the president of the united states or was he really just a coffee boy? >> that's a tantalizing thing, and mimi, we don't want to get too far out ahead of it because we don't have reporting that suggests that, but we do know that this office where you worked, this is not your typical office. this is the center of wall street, the center of a lot of terror and national security cases, and the political cases that have come out of this office have been hard charging. former sdny lawyer preet bharara was charging people in the state legislature, we've seen federal cases. is it possible that if we learn anything, how does it work? how do they share that? >> you mean in terms of cooperating him? >> yeah, if he ponies up
something they didn't know he knew. >> it's all within the same office. right now the securities fraud unit, you know, in that office is in charge of the case. but if he has information that would be relevant to other public corruption type prosecutions, they would just, you know, walk down the hall to their colleagues at the public corruption unit and share it with them. >> so they're not restricted from coordinating on it? >> no, absolutely. that happens all the time, where someone is charged with one type of crime but then has information to offer against individuals on a completely different type of crime. it's within the same office. it doesn't matter. it gets a little more complicated from office to office, but even that happens. but here it would be a united team i'm sure. >> and that's fascinating. we're not there yet but that's something that's come up a lot and members of congress do know more than as we put it the average bear. my thanks to mimi and joyce. coming up, salacious questions in the manafort trial. a star witness pressed on the allegations of his own extramarital affairs. first, top senators focusing on julian assange as part of the
russia probe. i will speak to assange associating randy who has talked to roger stone and a lot of other issues on this story. randy, thanks for coming in. >> it's a pleasure. what a great show. almost anything. even "vengeful vermin." not so cute when they're angry. and we covered it. talk to farmers. we know a thing or two because we've seen a thing or two. ♪ we are farmers. bum-pa-dum, bum-bum-bum-bum ♪ do you want the same tools and seamless experience across web and tablet? yes? great!
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what's happening now, assange was open to speaking to congressional investigators. >> i had gone there with a mandate for mr. assange from mr. schiff to interview him. >> wait, what? you have julian assange willing to speak to adam schiff's committee? >> yes, yes. >> why does he want to speak to adam schiff? >> because he can clear it all up. if he wants to go over there, he's waiting for him. >> that news broke right here on msnbc. there was pushback from the hill, but now we're seeing this new thing on wikileaks including from something we all learn about after the fact. bob mueller has been referencing the organization in his questioning and his work and his new indictments of russian hackers. it doesn't call out wikileaks by name, but it refers to it as organization 1. you see it there over and over and over, organization 1 wiki leaking is key to what the russians did. there were other connections as well. the trump campaign had donald
trump jr. busted. roger stone exchanging messages and claiming that he had additional communication with them. >> i actually have communicated with assange. i believe the next bunch of documents pertain to the clinton foundation but there's no telling what the october surprise may be. >> stone has since walked some of that back. then there is the candidate himself willing to take their help. >> it's been amazing what's coming out on wikileaks. >> this wikileaks is unbelievable. >> wikileaks, i love wikileaks. >> i am joined now by randy credico. you are, i will note, a somewhat controversial figure. but what you said on this news program appears to have been borne out in public now. why is julian assange saying he's willing to talk, and do you think he really would talk to investigators? >> well, i think that he would,
provided that the parameters are set in a way that's not unfavorable to him. and it can't be a trap. they have to treat him respectfully and they have to do it with a lot of professionalism, not just go in there and do some kind of surprise attack. >> do you believe as someone who's interacted with him, and you have been favorable to him -- >> yes. >> -- that he will be accurate to the u.s. committees about a matter that he has appeared to prejudge and been defensive about, saying this is all garbage? >> well, i think he -- listen, you have to sit down with the person. he's a very honest individual, very forthright, a man of grave integrity. i think that if they work it out, it would be a real boon. i think you'll find out there isn't that much to it. at least that's what i feel. >> that much to the idea that this was an espionage operation rather than wikileaks saying however many governments are mad at it, they often upset material
that they don't think is accurate. we talk to you because you talk to him. >> the last time was right after i did your show for the very first time. that was the last time we had a communication. he said, by the way, he can't watch your show right now. he is totally gagged. >> what did he say that time? >> he said that you are a very smart guy and he says do your show. he enjoys your show butty can't watch it now. >> he encouraged you to speak on his behalf on the show. >> yes. >> which iinteresting. now, here he is talking to you undermining the idea that there is something to the russia probe. take a look. >> this whole thing about russia and trying to vilify you as some agent of the russians is complete garbage. what is your response to that? >> well, it is complete garbage. it's just complete nonsense. >> so here he was in april saying that. earlier when he did speak to fox news, he also basically denied what has been borne out, what mueller is charging, hasn't been
proven in court yet, what the intelligence agencies have asserted, that the russians were behind a lot of this. take a look at his denials to fox news. >> can you say to the american people unequivocally that you did not get this information about the dnc, john podesta's e-mails, can you tell the american people 1,000% you did not get it from russia or anybody associated with russia? >> yes. our source is not the russian government. >> is there value in him saying that to the intelligence committees when you must admit the evidence goes the other way? >> i don't think the evidence goes the other way. i don't think he got it from the russians, i really don't. i'm not convinced -- >> let's pause right there. do you accept -- do you accept that the russians did hack? >> i'm not for sure. i'm not ruling it out that the russians did, but i always have thought that it was a leak. i'm not for sure. no one knows for sure what it really is but i don't think that julian assange -- i will say -- >> the intelligence agencies
have concluded this. >> yes. >> donald trump's aides have cleaned up his denials to reassert that it happened that way and mueller has charged it with a lot of detail. again, i have to be clear, it hasn't been proven in court but if your position and assange's position that the original hack wasn't the russians, he might very well end up per injuring himself before the committee. >> i don't think so. he's a very smart man and a very honest person. i think he has a lot to say. if they're looking to get to the bottom of this, he will be totally vindicated. >> how so? >> that's my opinion. >> how so? >> i've been in that embassy -- by the way, the embassy is a very small embassy. it's very hot inside. he is under a lot of pressure. he's been there without any communication for five months, 100 degrees, no air conditioning. i think that he will be vindicated. and what's the charge anyway? he didn't do anything. he's not the guy that like grabbed this stuff out of the dnc file. he just put it out there. what did he do that "the new
york times" didn't do or "the washington post" didn't do or what you didn't do or andrew cuomo's brother. >> you're raising a valid legal defense, which is that the platform upon which the stolen material is released is not criminally culpable inside of the united states. >> right. >> sure. but i want to be precise. what julian assange is saying in public is not that, not hey, we're just a platform, but we didn't get it from the russians. if he says that as you know under u.s. law to these committees and that's not true, that's a new problem. >> how can they prove -- >> help us go inside jewel anul assange's mind. does he want to say what he said to fox in a legal proceeding because he's got his legal problems already. >> i don't know what the legal problems are. clandestine charges against julian assange. what could they possibly be? >> you don't know why he's in protected status? >> i know why, because he skipped bail. he skipped bail and that's the
reason why they're keeping him in there until he comes out and then they'll arrest him for bail skipping. they don't have charges that have been made public. a lot of people don't think there are charges. remember, this is not the roman empire. in the roman empire in rome you had laws for roman citizens and different laws in macedonia and egy egypt. everybody is subjected to the same laws. the first amendment, whether it's someone from the bbc or somebody from "the london times," they get the benefit of the first amendment. so does he. >> let me read to you from the indictment just to make sure we're clear on this. organization 1, this is the mueller indictment. organization 1 releases 20,000 e-mails, it says stolen from the dnc network. wikileaks released 20,000 e-mails as is well known july 22nd from the dnc. >> right. >> do you have any reason other than your affinity for assange to doubt this material? >> i believe that that stuff was released. where it came from i have no idea. i certainly know he did not get it from the russians.
and i -- prove me wrong. can you prove me wrong? >> well, i'm showing you the evidence. >> right. well, that's not the evidence, that's something that mueller put out there and his investigators. we don't know for sure where it really came from. you can say 17 -- it's not 17 intelligence community organizations that have signed off on this. that's not true. there's three or four, that's all. >> you're talking about -- there's the director of national intelligence and all these other intelligence arms under the umbrella. it's all the u.s. government. >> have they ever -- >> you're on a thin read if your problem is how they bureaucratically organize it. >> they said the same thing about the iraqi war, that there was weapons of mass destruction. there were 10 or 12 organizations, same thing about the gulf of tonkin so there's reasons to doubt. >> for viewers watching you and assessing you, you are someone who has been dubious and skeptical of government assertions. >> right. >> and sure, i think the iraq
war is one that comes up a lot on the left and the right. donald trump cites it. i think we all know the differences and we're not going to reopen it right now. >> i was against the iraq war. >> i know. but has bob mueller called you in to testify? >> they did. they didn't call me in, they showed up and asked me to come in and do a personal voluntary enter view, which i did not -- >> who is they that showed up? >> somebody from his investigation. >> where did they finding you? >> i don't want to say where, but they found me. >> they came to you in person? >> i'm kind of elusive these days. there are people out there saying bad things about me. >> well, you're making news as you often do. you're confirming that federal agents working for bob mueller came to you in new york? >> yes. >> and what did they ask you? >> they asked me if i would like to do a vol -- well, we set up a conversation with somebody from the mueller team. and they asked my lawyer if i would like to go down and do a voluntary interview. and he said no. i didn't get a subpoena.
they asked me for a voluntary interview. >> let's make sure we understand. i don't believe you've said this on air before. >> probably not. >> okay. so let's make sure we understand it because the probe is of great interest and you're in there as an associate, and i'm not implying anything negative about you but as a known associate of roger stone and julian assange. >> don't say associating e of s. i know stone. andrew miller is an associate of stone. >> you're here to give your side of the story. what word would you use. >> someone who has worked with stone before but not an associate. >> a form colleague? >> i've worked on a campaign or two with roger stone in the past. 16 years i've known the guy. >> it sounds like you're going up from associate, not down when you say 16 years. >> we've an llc together, you know, i don't know. i've known him, we've gone years without talking to each other. he did my radio show. the whole year 2016, every month i had him on because he is great to have on television. >> randy, your radio show
punches way above its weight. >> it does. >> and political activist for a long time. i just want to be clear what we're learning from you but what you're telling us tonight on your assertion is federal agents came to you in new york and asked you for a voluntary interview from the mueller probe, presumably about stone and wikileaks, correct? >> listen, i -- i'm not going t tell you specifically for. i can't you specifically. >> as a lawyer -- >> there's a reason why they came to me and i kept this under my hat for at least six weeks. i didn't want to talk about it because i don't want to instigate the special prosecutor, okay? >> i understand that and we're just trying to learn facts here but they came to you -- >> they did. >> -- for a voluntary interview -- >> no, they set up a conversation with my lawyer for the following monday -- >> and your lawyer declined to make you available for a voluntary interview. >> yes, yes. >> how long ago was that? >> i don't know, five or six weeks ago. >> and you have not heard from them since? >> do you think i'm clear? >> do i think you're clear? >> what would rudy giuliani say?
he'd say five years, six years, whatever. this has been one good thing about this, i do a great rudy giuliani. >> we're not doing impressions -- you can do one impression. >> i've got to tell you, followers get mad at me when i do impressions. i was waiting to do reagan impression. >> we are not doing impressions. >> i am doing it in september. >> you have one more thing, what is it? >> i watched you fill in for rachel maddow and that tie you were wearing. this is from 1998, a special limited edition andy warhol. >> this is kind of you. we will run it through the ethics department here, i
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A recap of the day's news.
me late one night, to hit the reset button on his life and liz previous loyalty to such a man that he considered especially after helsinki to be a danger to our country. as president of the united states. >> so do you know what giuliani has been saying? he's a liar, this is nothing more than a series of lies, he's a liar, liar, liar, liar. what do you say to that? >> the man who said truth is not truth. the man who takes away any dispute of fact that donald trump committed a crime when he directed my client, michael cohen to pay the money to miss daniels. it was rudy giuliani who broke the attorney/client privilege, contradicted president trump's lie on air force one who said,
mr. trump reimbursed michael cohen for the advance money paid to miss daniels to keep her quiet. that is rudy giuliani saying that donald trump knew, directed and paid michael cohen. >> there is no allegation of any wrongdoing against the president in the government charges against mr. cohen. this is giuliani speaking here. it is clear that as the prosecutor noted, mr. cohen's actions reflect a pattern of lies and dishonesty over a significant period of time. >> let me repeat. i am talking about a fact not in dispute. mr. trump's attorney submitted a letter published to the special council, in which they said mr. trump directed mr. cohen to make this payment. whatever giuliani wants to invent, that truth isn't truth or to say what's on the tape
he was trying to cover up and hide his own role in the situation with ms. daniels by having cohen do the deed rather than himself. there is no dispute, there is no need for proof. his lawyers have admitted that fact. >> everyone knew that the president knew. and when he got aboard air force one, we know, he knew about this payment. you say michael cohen has information that should be of interest to the special council, and he's more than happy to tell mueller all that he knows. does this mean that cohen will say what cnn reported a month ago, that cohen told friend s trump knew of the trump tower meeting ahead of time? >> there's certain things that an attorney and client share that i can't divulge, unlike rudy giuliani, who waived attorney client privilege when he spoke about what donald trump told him. i'm not allowed to do that.
russian -- the conspiracy to included as well as actual knowledge of a crime that most people would call the fbi about, and we'll see what develops with mr. mueller's investigation, i think he knows a lot more than we think he knows. >> if michael has all of this stuff as you say, and there's no reason to believe that he doesn't. why would the president and the president's team, the administration work as hard almost every day to throw michael cohen under the bus and keep backing up over him? or as one of our analysts said, you know, on air force one, throwing him under air force one. why would he do that? >> or they do that? >> it's impossible to understand rudy giuliani's conduct. truth is not truth, throwing a client under the busby admitting essentially we now know a crime
by saying he reimbursed a campaign contribution that was above the limits and didn't disclose it in his 2019 -- 2018 report, rudy giuliani simply doesn't understand the law or doesn't care about the law. and this particular culture of lying we know, that it was rudy giuliani who said that when donald trump lied to the press on air force one -- you've done that clip, i've seen. it's not a crime to lie to the american people. well, giuliani's right about that, but it is an impeachable offense. to use the office of the president to abuse the powers of the presidency and lie to the american people. >> i'm not going to hold you too much longer, but again you say, michael cohen has information that does what as it relates to conspiracy and collusion? >> i think it would be of interest to mr. mueller, and i
don't want to go any further than that. mr. mueller, in a book that's about to come out in paperback version that i wrote, i liken mr. mueller to a silent deadly submarine under the surface, leak proof with the fuel energized by one thing, facts. facts. something that rudy giuliani doesn't think exists, and that donald trump literally doesn't care when he ignores. and we'll see what mr. mueller comes up with, but i do believe that michael cohen will tell the truth to rudy giuliani and will tell the truth about donald trump. >> appreciate your time. lanny davis, thank you very much. when we come back, stormy daniels attorney says the president's fingerprints are all over the crime scene in collection with the violation of campaign finance laws.
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michael cohen pleading guilty to eight criminal counts today. cohen admitting then candidate donald trump directed him to make those payments. here to discuss the attorney representing storm my daniels, michael avenatti. you say you believe lanny davis dropped a bombshell in that interview. >> lanny davis just made an admission that has never been made before. it's the first i've heard of this, he just stated on your show moments ago. where are the receipts, vis-a-vis donald trump's involvement. lanny davis just stated there was a wire transfer directly
into the account that michael cohen had established. this was the essential consultants account in order to pay my client the $130,000 payment. that is a huge problem for the president. it would be direct conduct by the trump organization to reimburse that payment. that would constitute campaign finance violation, and would basically make donald trump a co-conspirator. that is directly contrary to what rudy giuliani told sean hannity a few months ago. what he told sean hannity was, the payment was reimbursed by way of invoices, i think he said laundered -- or used a similar word when describing how the 130,0$130,000 was uses.
>> funneled. >> that was an interesting word. if there was a $130,000 payment that went out to my client which we know there was. and there was a $130,000 wire that came into that account. the president's in a lot of trouble. >> how so? explain. >> because i think it's an open and shut case. relating to the fact that this $130,000 payment was paid by michael cohen with the understanding that he was going to be reimbursed directly by donald trump or the trump organization. that would have had to have been disclosed. >> another part of the interview. i said, i followed up, and he -- it would be good for -- okay, this is not verbatim, it is notes. some things i can't divulge, attorney/client privilege, certain complications, we are unable to correct michael cohen. has information that we would be -- that would be of interest to mr. mueller. this is paraphrasing here, i
won't call it a smoking gun. someone will have to characterize it, but he does have information that would be of interest and it pertains to a crime most people would call the fbi about. >> don, i think the big effort problem right now for donald trump is, that he has lost control. he's lost control over manafort, he's lost control over cohen. these two individuals now are going to be looking to do whatever they can to cut their own criminal sentences, to protect their families, and there's not a lot that donald trump is going to be able to do about it, and i will just tell you, though, if there's a wire transfer receipt for $130,000 payment directly from the trump organization. that is nothing short of a bombshell. i want to say one thing, i respect lanny, but i disagree with him about what we just heard, i think it's complete nonsense and spin. michael cohen did not all of a sudden find love of country and did not all of a sudden become a patriot. did not all of a sudden conclude
after having known donald trump for 12 or 15 years that donald trump would not make a good president. here's what happened, michael cohen realized he was dead to rights, he was in the crosshairs, whatever metaphor you want to use, as it relates to prosecutors from the southern district of new york. he took the steps he's taken for no other reason than to save himself and his family. let's be clear about that, let's not try to call it anything other than what it is, just so everyone understands what happened. this season the about love of country or patriotism, michael cohen waited until the last possible moment, you've witnessed it over the last five months. he's been practically begging for donald trump to lead him out of the dark force for months now, it became clear it wasn't going to happen. >> he was waiting on some help in the president. >> no question. >> i think he was waiting for loyalty and it never developed. >> it's a lengthy sound bite, but this is what you were referring to earlier, when it comes to the alleged wire
transfer if that is what happened. watch this. >> does he have the proof? does he have the receipts? >> first of all, yes, the wire transfer from the trump corporation to the account that michael cohen set up, that then went to stormy daniels is recognizable and provable. let me repeat, the proof is president trump's own lawyers, wrote the special council and used the word directed. there doesn't need to be proof when the lawyers have acknowledged that the client directed michael cohen to make an illegal payment. making the client as guilty certainly as the lawyer, and in my judgment more guilty, because he was trying to cover up and hide his own role in the situation with miss daniels by having before cohen do the deed rather than himself. there is no dispute, there is no need for proof, his lawyers have
admitted that fact. >> the first part of that is, you say what? >> that's a bombshell. if what lanny davis just stated is true, there's a $130,000 wire transfer directly into that bank account that was used to pay my client. and that is a direct reimbursement from donald trump or a company controlled by limb, which is what lanny davis just said, it is a stunning piece of evidence and stunning admission. it runs counter to what rudy giuliani said and it also runs counter to david schwartz. >> he defended cohen. >> used to defend michael cohen. you'll remember all the things that david schwartz told the american people that ended up being absolutely false. >> you've made a lot of predictions, and a lot of them have come true. i'm wondering what this means, i'll get to that -- what does this mean for your case? does this mean that you will possibly get to depose a sitting
president? what are the chances of that? >> i think the likelihood of us being able to depose first michael cohen and second donald trump, i think those odds went through the roof today as a result of the plea, as a result of the language in the plea, and the facts that michael cohen pled to. i think there's little question as to whether we're going to get a deposition of michael cohen, and i'm going to be permitted to ask him specific questions about what happened and the level of communications, and i'm going to get to the details relating to that and then i am guessing. i'm not guessing, i'm speculating, i'm on solid ground i'm going to get a deposition of the president of the united states. >> zero doubt that michael cohen is already cooperating and has been cooperating with investigators, do you mean the special council or the southern district? >> i'm referring to the southern district. it does not sound to me that he has cooperated with the special council. >> i don't think they've offered him the queen for a day thing.
according to our source that i know that has not been put on the table. the queen for a day, to talk to the special council. you also have said that you think this president will resign before his term is -- what is your proof, what's the indication of that, and how do you feel about that now? >> i said that a number of months ago, and i feel even more strongly about that statement today in light of what lapped with paul manafort and with michael cohen. i think the walls are closing in on the president, i don't think he's going to serve out his term. i want to be clear about something, there's a lot of things that have to happen. there's a dynamic situation. we don't know what the southern district of new york is going to do that is provided by michael cohen. i stand on that prediction. >> rudy giuliani tweeted, buckle up, buttercup, you and your client completely misplayed this. >> i tweeted that out, because i meant it. >> you tweeted that to rudy giuliani? >> he's an absolute walking disaster of an attorney.
he's destroyed liz legacy, he's done a disservice to himself and his client. and he's committed legal malpractice in the way they've handled this. donald trump should have brought michael cohen into the tent a long time ago. >> i asked lanny that question, why did he keep him and giuliani -- >> they don't understand the sense of loyalty unless you're last name is putin. then they understand loyalty. >> your client tweeted this, how you like me now? #teamstormy. >> how big of a day is this for your case? >> it's a huge day. she's ecstatic, she feels vindicated. there are a lots of legal pundits that took a fair amount of shots at her and me, and our legal strategy, how we use the media. as of today, it looks okay. >> yeah, all of that reporting we were doing was fake news, remember? >> all fake news. all facts are fake news. >> thank you, sir, i appreciate it. we'll be right back.
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paul manafort spending the rest of his life in prison. the judge declaring a mistrial on 10 other counts, also michael cohen pleading guilty to eight other counts today as well. i want to bring in renata mariati and arriva martin. you have heard lanny davis. lanlny davis said he believes that michael cohen has information that the special council would be interested in. michael avant atty believes that lani dave dropped a bombshell when he talked about the possibility of a record of a wire transfer from the trump organization. what do you make of this? >> there's a popular saying, that justice rides a slow horse, she eventually gets there. i would say today she got there. you know, just overwhelming news on the legal front for the trump team. what happened with paul manafort in terms of eight counts where
he's found guilty of bank fraud and tax evasion. and now, you know, michael cohen, the long time fixer and personal lawyer for the president pleading guilty to eight counts, two of which directly involve the president of the united states. clearly an unpress dented day for the government, for the president. shocking revelation by lanny davis that this isn't over, when i looked at that interview, what it said to me is, we have a long way to go, and more shoes are going to drop, whether mueller decides that he can indict a sitting president. clearly enough information has come out today just from what we saw michael cohen plead to in federal court to suggest that there is a case that can be made against donald trump for criminal activity, and it's so ironic that donald trump said during the campaign, that hillary clinton would be the most scandal ridden president in
the history of this country. and now we have donald trump, his campaign adviser, his long term personal adviser, his personal lawyer, his fixer, both pled guilty and one convicted of felonies. unprecedented. >> and then this mueller case. let's see, one sentence five guilty pleas. one person found guilty, 35 defendants, 191 criminal charges, there it is up on the screen. what do you think? >> i will tell you, don, my mouth dropped when i saw that michael cohen went into federal court and under oath said that he was directed by donald trump to commit a crime. i mean, that is serious, the folks at home don't need any of us to tell them that that is a very very big deal. when you direct someone to commit a crime, you are guilty of that crime, whether you are a mob boss or a drug dealer or something else. >> does that make him an
unindicted co-conspirator? >> yeah, it makes him -- there's something called agency liability. when you are telling somebody to do something at your direction, you are responsible for that crime. whether he agreed to do it with cohen, it's certainly one way of looking at it. he actually is responsible for the crime, as cohen was his agent. either way, if cohen is telling the truth, donald trump has committed a felony. full stop. that is serious business. there's no way to explain that away as a witch hunt. this isn't the mueller team doing this, this is a bunch of prosecutors doing their job in new york. this isn't about collusion. there's no discussion one way or another about collusion or the dossier or any of that other nonsense we've been hearing about on fox news or the president's team talk about. this is a federal crime, and the president's own former lawyer is the one who says he did it under oath. >> wouldn't it be interesting.
and you can say whatever you want after this. if -- whatever comes out of the mueller investigation, let's put that aside. but if what comes out of something that mueller actually referred to the southern district is the thing that trips this president up the most? >> that would be incredibly interesting, don, i don't want to put the mueller investigation aside. i think we should settle -- >> just for -- >> i think that would be amazing, it's important for us to note, this is a president that has ridiculed, has taken pod shots at the mueller investigation, has called it a witch hunt a hoax, has tried to demean it in the most aggressive way possible. and to date, out of that mueller investigation, came the referral to the southern district of new york, which led to michael cohen pleading guilty to those eight counts, trump can no longer try to delegitimize the mueller investigation because it's clear today that mueller and his team
know what they're doing, they're experts and they're getting at the bottom of what happened, not just with donald trump and other people in his orbit, it says to me today too, jared kushner, other individuals that are in that personal circle of donald trump, we may be hearing something from the special council and his team of investigators as it relates to those individuals as well. i don't think they're out of the clear by a longshot. >> thank you, i appreciate your time. when we come back, both the president's former campaign chairman and his personal attorney headed to prison. that makes five members of trump's circle who have been convicted of or pleaded guilty to crimes. what happened to trump's law and order presidency? what happened? with our largesty of crab all year! like new crabfest combo. your one chance to have new jumbo snow crab with tender dungeness crab. or try crab lover's dream. but hurry in. 'cause crabfest ends september 2nd.
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the president's former fixer michael cohen pleads guilty to eight criminal counts on the same day paul manafort is convicted of eight financial crimes. remember when donald trump said he was the law and order candidate? joining me now to discuss is mike shields, the former chief of staff at the rnc and rick wilson, the author of the book, everything trump touches dies. gentlemen, good evening. my sources are telling cnn white house staffers were stunned and rattled by these legal bombshells and the president has been stewing. what's your reaction to what we saw today? >> well, it's obviously not good. you don't want your lawyer to be pleading guilty and also to try to implicate you as he's trying to plead himself out of the sentence that he has or his wife
might get into trouble. i thought it was interesting watching michael avenatti disagree with lanny davis on his motives, he was ascribing michael cohen's motives as patriotism. no, it's not patriotism, he's trying to save himself. i think that's a real interesting take, it puts into perspective when someone is already admitted to being a criminal, a lot of the things they say really are at that point self-serving. this is something that has to be proven before anyone can reach conclusions, and so the tease was a law and order president. the president ran on that because of things like what happened today in iowa, where we saw an illegal immigrant committed murder, those are the kind of law and order things. he heent been convicted of anything or found guilty of anything, there's someone who's going to jail accusing him of something many. >> what do you think, rick? >> look, i think that the joke
that was making the rounds tonight is right on point. maga now stands for my attorney got arrested. his campaign manager is now a convicted felon. his personal attorney today is pleading out in federal court and implicating the president directly while he was a candidate in law breaking. we've got a whole constellation of other trump people who have plead guilty or cooperating with prosecutors because this is a guy who was standing atop a gigantic mountain of corruption. he's standing atop a gigantic mountain of obstruction as well. all these things that have been slowly building up for donald trump, that this is an unfair witch hunt by hillary's angry minions is falling apart. people are seeing this now, you can't spin away the fact that paul manafort, who was donald trump's campaign manager is going to spends the rest of his
life in jail. michael cohen is going to jail. and for things they did. both before and during his administration, and his campaign. >> so listen -- >> go ahead. >> i'm old enough to remember being on here with rick, where rick specifically made the point to me, that the cohen investigation had nothing to do with the mueller investigation, and so i think that's an interesting point. because in the manafort case, they're not looking at russia collusion of the trump campaign, they're looking at tax fraud and payments that he had, and he hid, and in the cohen case, that was not a part according to everyone of the mueller case. >> can i jump in here real quick. and ask you -- >> we're nowhere near the end of the road. >> can i ask you, though. does that change since michael cohen directly implicated donald trump today? he may have said that yesterday or five minutes before michael cohen did that. doesn't that -- >> make a difference? >> not in -- when you -- what
rick was saying is that the president calls this whole thing a witch hunt, what he's referring to is the mueller investigation trying to create a conspiracy case around the president's campaign, and he's repeatedly said there was no such thing, and now we're saying, oh, my gosh, two people around him have gotten into trouble. neither one of them has anything to do with what that was originally about. and what democrats talk about every time they can, about mueller, which is russian collusion, neither one of these two things has anything to do with that. >> go ahead, rick, what were you saying? >> this is the first couple steps in a long waltz. and this is never going to get better. and robert mueller is circling around closer and closer, the cohen thing was ancillary. because it was ancillary, the individual charges and case issues were ancillary to the overall investigation. mueller's charter was to explore russian interference and the role the trump campaign may have
played with it, any other crimes that may emerge from that, they have a duty to go ahead and push through on these things. this is the first couple steps in this dance. this isn't the end for donald trump, it doesn't get easier after this, it gets harder, it gets worse, they're going to close in soon. roger stone's going to be staring up at a gray ceiling and a jail cell pretty soon. there are a lot of these guys that are going to be facing continued pressure on this. and the fact of the matter is, i think it speaks to the president's character, the man who promised he was a law and order candidate, it seems like for a guy who's going to hire the best people, he seems to be hiring the best felons, and there's a long trail of these other people that are already caught up in this, and it's -- it's disproportionate to any other president in modern history, including richard nixon at this point, it's kind of remarkable how many people around donald trump seem to be in legal trouble many. >> okay. don't go anywhere, we have much more to discuss. we'll be right back.
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and may stop treatment. other side effects include upper respiratory tract infection and headache. tell your doctor about all the medicines you take and if you're pregnant or planning to be. otezla. show more of you. so back with me now, rick shields, rick wilson. so, rick, with manafort convicted, michael cohen pleading guilty, lindsey graham said the american legal system is working in the paul manafort and michael cohen cases. thus far there have yet to be any charges or convictions for colluding with the russian government by any member of the trump campaign in the 2016 election. it's important to let the process continue without interference. i hope mr. mueller can conclude his investigation sooner rather than later for the benefit of the nation. what happened today caused congressional republicans to rethink their support for the president. >> well, it should.
but i think we've seen a lot of behavior already where they're going to do everything they can to avoid the mean tweet from donald trump and, look, senator graham, as i tweeted back to lindsey today, i said you don't want to grab the fecal end of this stick. this is a president who will leave you hanging. he'll absolutely abandon anyone and anyone that supports him. you will -- they will be stuck with all of the radiation and the fallout and the stink off anything that happens to donald trump legally because he requires they defend him so passionately. and that's a bad bet. donald trump refuses to tell the truth to anyone about anything ever and they believe that donald trump says there is no collusion, nothing there, no conspiracy. and there is no contact with russia. we know there was contact. this is a guy who -- this is a guy who lies to his friends, allies. he's lying to members of congress right now and they're buying it like a bunch of mooks.
>> listen, a bad bet is what democrats and people who just hate the president like rick have done which is spent a year and a half now telling the american people russian collusion, russian collusion, russian collusion. that's what this is all about. putin, they colluded with the russians to win. that has been the democratic party message heading into the midterm. it's what wall to wall media coverage is. so then when something like this happens, a lot of the public goes well this isn't russian collusion. >> it is also about corruption going on. >> you spent so long going down a conspiracy path. look, i work for newt gingrich in the 09's when president clinton got impeached. there was a white water investigation and then it ended up being about something completely separate. he committed purjury under oath.
the american people didn't want to have him impeached on that. that's what happens when you set something up as a russian collusion case and then watch things like this happen. you watch if, democrats win congress, they go to impeach the president. that's what they're going to run on. >> i'm running out of time. i just want to -- i don't have a lot of time. do you want to respond to that? >> look, the situation right now with donald trump is the only easy day was yesterday. more evidence will come out. more things will be revealed. you're going to look at donald trump p's money, longer relationship with this the denials will ring hollow. everyone else will get the stink on them that has been a trump defender because they believe a math that is a pathological liar about everything. why is he telling you the truth about this one thing will thing in the universe. >> the one thing i know for sure is tomorrow is a new day and there will be new developments. >> you bet. >> thank you both v a good night. >> thank you for watching. our coverage continues.
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A recap of the day's news.
this is cnn tonight. i'm don lemon. you want to pay attention to this hour. we've got a lot going on. it's 11:00 p.m. on the east coast. we're live with breaking news tonight. a source tells cnn that white house staffers are stunned by today's news. the men who led the president's campaign for five critical months leading up to the election found guilty in federal court. former trump campaign chairman paul manafort guilty of eight financial crime charges. a victory for robert mueller in the first trial to come out of his investigation. while the president continues to push the lie that the case against manafort wasn't part of the special counsel's original mission, i want you to look at what the trump appointed acting attorney general wrote. mueller is authorized to investigate any links and/or coordination between the russian
even his children's telephones. well, now he has stepped up to the line and he can now speak again and he feels liberated. >> how far is he willing to go? because i just want to ask because, you know, for years he's been saying, i will protect this president. i'm very loyal to donald trump. i'm not going to flip on him. i would never hurt him. and now we've come to this. >> when i first spoke to michael cohen and took several weeks for the two of us to get to know each other on the phone before we ever met, we talked very intensely about what caused him to change his mind about donald trump. and the only way to put it -- it may sound a little bit syrupy -- was patriotism and love of country caused him to recognize president and his lack of lar -
privilege contradicted president trump's lie on air force one who said, mr. trump reimbursed michael cohen for the advance money paid to miss daniels to keep her quiet. that is rudy giuliani saying that donald trump knew, directed and paid michael cohen. >> there is no allegation of any wrongdoing against the president in the government charges against mr. cohen. this is giuliani speaking here. it is clear that as the prosecutor noted, mr. cohen's actions reflect a pattern of lies and dishonesty over a significant period of time. lanny? >> let me repeat. i am talking about a fact not in dispute. mr. trump's attorney submitted a letter published to the special counsel in which they said mr. trump directed mr. cohen to make this payment.
whatever giuliani wants to invent, that truth isn't truth, or to say what's on the tape that isn't on the tape so i went on this cnn network and said, don't believe me, listen to the tape, giuliani doesn't know the difference between a lie and a fact. but here he's caught in his own words. he said that mr. trump lied to the press when he denied knowing about the stormy daniels payment, and giuliani said and his lawyer said that mr. trump knew and directed mr. cohen, as mr. cohen said under oath today in federal district court. so there is no doubt that donald trump committed a crime. and more than that, a cover up of the crime because he did not want to write the check to stormy daniels, which mr. giuliani admitted he directed mr. cohen to do. why didn't donald trump write the check himself, don? >> this is all -- >> because he covered up what he
knew was wrongdoing. that's why. >> this is all going to come down to proof. people are going to say where are the receipts? where are the receipts that michael cohen has? and, you know, i was speaking to chris earlier. chris said he has no reason to lie. it doesn't behoove him to lie because then he's in more trouble than he's already in. does he have the proof? does he have the receipts? >> so, first of all, yes, the wire transfer from the trump corporation to the account that michael cohen set up that then went to stormy daniels is recognizable and provable. but let me repeat, the proof is president trump's own lawyers wrote the special counsel and used the word "directed." there doesn't need to be proof when the lawyers have acknowledged that the client directed michael cohen to make an illegal payment, making the
A recap of the day's news.
attorney/client privilege when he spoke about what donald trump told him. i'm not allow today do that. there is a certain complication in that story that we were never able to correct, but i do -- to answer your question, no, that michael cohen has information that would be of interest to mr. mueller in his probe of a conspiracy to corrupt american democracy very similar to the indictment of the 12 russians i believe that mr. cohen would be able to provide information useful to the special counsel. i won't call it smoking gun information, somebody else will have to judge that, but i believe that he does have relevant information. >> so he has relevant information. do you think that information pertains to that trump tower meeting or could it pertain to that trump tower meeting? >> it pertains to something else that i can't divulge right now,
but i believe that it would be of interest to mr. mueller in his probe of the russian -- the conspiracy to collude as well as actual knowledge of a crime that most people would call the fbi about. and we'll see what develops with mr. mueller's investigation. i think he knows a lot more than we think he knows. >> so, lanny, let me ask you this. if michael has all of this stuff as you say and there is no reason to believe he doesn't, then why would the president and the president's team, the administration, work as hard almost every day to throw michael cohen under the bus, under the bus and keep backing up over him, or as one of our analysts here, laura coats said, you know, on air force one, throwing him under air force one? why would he do that? or they do that? >> it's impossible to understand rudy giuliani's conduct. truth is not truth.
throwing a client under the bus by admitting essentially we now know a crime, by saying he reimbursed a campaign contribution that was above the limits. and then didn't disclose it in his 2019 -- '18 report. so, rudy giuliani simply doesn't understand the law or doesn't care about the law, and this particular culture of lying, we know it was rudy giuliani who said that when donald trump lied to the press on air force one -- you've done that clip, i've seen -- it's not a crime to lie to the american people. well, giuliani is right about that. but it is an impeachable offense to use the office of the president to abuse the powers of the presidency and lie to the american people. >> i'm not going to monopolize your time. i'm not going to hold you too much longer. but again, you say michael cohen has information that does what as it relates to conspiracy and
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naturally beautiful results®. president trump's former fixer and long-time attorney michael cohen pleading guilty to eight criminal counts including campaign finance violations, two payments he made or helped orchestrate to silence stormy daniels and karen mcdougal. donald trump directed him to make those payments. here to discuss, michael avenatti. thank you for joining us. >> thank you. >> you say you believe lanny davis dropped a bombshell. explain. >> i was watching that interview and lanny davis just made an admission that has never been made before, it's the first i've ever heard of this. lanny davis just stated on your show moments ago, you asked him about receipts, you asked if michael cohen had receipts, related to the stormy daniels payment vis-a-vis donald trump's involvement and lanny davis just
stated that there was a wire transfer from the trump organization directly into the account that michael cohen had established -- this was the essential consultants account -- in order to pay my client the $130,000 payment. now, if that, in fact, is true, that is a huge problem for the president because it would be direct conduct by the trump organization to reimburse that payment. that would constitute campaign finance violation and would basically make donald trump aiko conspirator, no question about that. and i'll also add that that is directly contrary to what rudy giuliani told sean hannity a few months ago because what rudy giuliani told sean hannity was that the payment was reimbursed by way of invoices or i think he said laundered or used a similar word when describing how the $130,000 was reimbursed. so if lanny davis is correct, what he just stated to you that,
in fact -- >> funneled. you spoke about t. >> we did. we talked about the fact that was an interesting word to use, right? well, if, in fact, there was $130,000 payment that went out to my client, which we know there was, and then there was $130,000 wire that came in directly into that account from the trump organization, the president's in a lot of trouble. >> how so? explain. >> well, because i think it's an open and shut case relating to the fact that this $130,000 payment was paid by michael cohen with the understanding that he was going to be reimbursed directly by donald trump or the trump organization. that would have had to have been disclosed. >> another part of the interview i said -- i followed up -- okay. this is not verbatim, right. this is just notes. some things that i can't divulge, attorney/client privilege. he said certain dcomplications e are unable to correct.
michael cohen has information that would be of interest to mr. mueller, he said, okay, and again this is paraphrasing here. he said i won't call it a smoking gun information. someone would have to characterize it, but he does have information that would be of interest and it pertains to a crime most people would call the fbi about. >> well, don, i think the biggest problem right now for donald trump is that he has lost control. he's lost control over manafort. he's lost control over cohen. these two individuals now are going to be looking to do whatever they can to cut their own criminal sentences, to protect their families, and there is not a lot that donald trump is going to be able to do about it. i will just tell you, though, if there is a wire transfer receipt for a $130,000 payment from the trump organization, that is nothing short of a bombshell. i do want to say one thing, though. and i respect lanny, but i disagree with him about, you know, what we just heard in the following regard because i think it's complete nonsense and spin. michael cohen did not all of a sudden find love of country and
did not all of a sudden became -- become a patriot. did not all of a sudden conclude after having known donald trump for 12 or 15 years that donald trump would not make a good president. here's what happened. michael cohen realized he was dead to rice. he was in the crosshairs. whatever metaphor you want to use, as it relates to prosecutors from the southern district of new york. michael cohen took the steps he has taken for no other reason to save himself and his family. let's be clear about that. let's not try to call it anything other than what it is. just so everyone understands what happened, this isn't about love of country or patriotism. in fact, michael cohen waited until the last possible moment. you've witnessed it over the last five months. the american people have witnessed it. he's been practically begging for donald trump to lead him out of the dark forest for months now. it became clear it wasn't going to happen. >> you think he was waiting on some help from the president? >> no question. i think he was waiting for air cover and loyalty, it never developed. >> it is a lengthy sound bite.
this is what you were referring to earlier as it comes to that wire -- alleged wire transfer if that is indeed what happened. watch this. >> does he have the proof? does he have the receipts? >> so, first of all, yes. the wire transfer from the trump corporation to the account that michael cohen set up that then went to stormy daniels is recognizable and provable. but let me repeat. the proof is president trump's own lawyers wrote the special counsel and used the word "directed." there doesn't need to be proof when the lawyers have acknowledged that the client directed michael cohen to make an illegal payment, making the client as guilty, certainly, as the lawyer. and in my judgment, more guilty because he was trying to cover up and hide his own role in the situation with miss daniels by having mr. cohen do the deed
rather than himself. so there is no dispute. there is no need for proof. his lawyers have admitted that fact. >> that's good. so, the first part of that, you say what? >> that's a bombshell. if what lanny davis just stated is true, there's a $130,000 wire transfer directly into that bank account that was used to pay my client and that is a direct reimbursement from donald trump or a company controlled by him, which is what lanny davis just said, that is a stunning piece of evidence and a stunning admission and it runs directly counter to what rudy giuliani has said and it also, it also runs directly counter to david schwartz. i don't know if some of your viewers remember that guy that showed up early on -- >> he used to defend cohen. >> used to defend michael cohen. you'll recall all the things david schwartz told the american people that have proved to be absolutely false. >> okay. so, you've made a lot of predictions and a lot of them have come true. i'm just wondering what this means -- and i'll get to that,
the one important one i want to talk about. what does this amelia draper for yo -- mean for your case? does this mean you will possibly get to depose a sitting president? what are the chances that of? >> i think the likelihood of us being able to depose first michael cohen and second donald trump, i think those odds went through the roof today as a result of this plea, as a result of the language in the plea and the facts that michael cohen pled to. i think there's little question as to whether we're going to get a deposition of michael cohen and i'm going to be permitted to ask him specific questions about what happened and the level of communications and i'm going to get to the details relating to that. and then i am guessing -- i'm not guessing, i'm speculating and i think i'm on solid ground, i think i'm going to get a deposition of the president of the united states. >> you said you have zero doubt michael cohen is cooperating and has been cooperating with the investigators. do you mean the southern district or the special counsel? >> the southern district. it doesn't sound like he has
cooperated with the special counsel. >> i don't think they have offered him the queen for a day thing, you know, according to a source that i know that has not been put on the table, the queen for a day to talk to the special counsel. you also have said that you think that this president will resign before his term is -- what is your proof? what's the indication of that? how do you feel about that now? >> well, i said that a number of months ago. i feel even more strongly about that statement today in light of what happened with paul manafort and with michael cohen. i think the walls are closing in on the president. i don't think he's going to serve out his term. i want to be clear about something. there's a lot of things that have to happen. it's a very dynamic situation. we don't know what the southern district of new york is going to do with the information that is provided by michael cohen, but i stand on that prediction. >> i've got to run but i want to ask you because rudy giuliani tweeted today, he said buckle up buttercup you and your client completely misplayed this. >> yeah, i tweeted that out because i meant it. >> you tweeted that about rudy
giuliani. sorry about that. >> to rudy giuliani. rudy giuliani is an absolute walking disaster of an attorney. he's destroyed his legacy. he's done a disservice to himself and his client. and i mean, he's basically committed legal malpractice in the way they've handled this. look, donald trump should have brought michael cohen into the tent a long time ago when he, when he went to -- >> i asked lanny that question. why did he keep him and giuliani and the whole administration keep throwing michael cohen under the bus? >> because they don't understand the sense of loyalty unless your last name is putin. then they understand loyalty. >> your client stormy daniels tweeted this. this is the last thing i've got. how do you like me now? #team stormy. how big of a day is this for your case? >> it's a huge day. she's ecstatic. she feels vindicated. there were a lot of pundits that took shots at her and our strategy. how we used the media. as of today it looks okay. >> all the reporting we were
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so tonight president trump's former campaign chairman paul manafort facing the possibility of spending the rest of his life in prison, convicted on eight counts of tax and bank fraud. judge declaring a mistrial on ten other counts. also michael cohen pleading guilty to eight counts today as well. i want to bring in now cnn legal analyst, a former federal prosecutor and a rib a martin, the author of make it rain. good evening to both of you. ariba, you have heard lanny davis. >> hi, don. >> lanny davis said he believes michael cohen has information that the special counsel would be interested in. michael avenatti says he believes that lanny davis laid a bombshell tonight, dropped a bombshell when he talked about the possibility of record -- of a wire transfer from the trump organization. what do you make of this? >> well, don, there's a popular saying. justice rides a slow horse but she eventually gets there. and i would say today she got
there. just overwhelming news on the legal front for the trump team. what happened with paul manafort in terms of eight counts where he's found guilty of bank fraud and tax evasion, and now michael cohen, the long-time fixer and personal lawyer for the president pleading guilty to eight counts, two of which directly involve the president of the united states. clearly an unprecedented day for the government, for the president. shocking i think revelation by lanny davis that this isn't over. when i looked at that interview, what it said to me is we've got a long way to go, and more shoes are going to drop. now, whether mueller decides that he can indict a sitting president, we know that that's up for debate, but clearly enough information has come out today just from what we saw michael cohen plead to in federal court to suggest that there is a case that can be made against donald trump for criminal activity and it's so --
it's so ironic, don, that donald trump said during the campaign that hillary clinton would be the most scandal-ridden president in the history of this country and now we have donald trump, his campaign advisor, his long time personal lawyer, his fixer, both -- one pled guilty and one convicted of felonies. unprecedented. >> uh-huh, and then this mueller case -- let's see, one sentence, five guilty pleas. one person found guilty, 35 defendants, 191 criminal charges. there it is up on the screen. manato, what do you think? >> i will tell you, don, my mouth dropped when i saw that michael cohen went into federal court and under oath said that he was directed by donald trump to commit a crime. i mean, that is serious. the folks at home don't need any of us to tell them that is a very big deal. when you are direct someone to
commit a crime, you are guilty of that crime whether you are a mob boss or a drug dealer or something else. you are guilty. >> does that make him a coconspirator, renato? >> when you are telling somebody to do something at your direction, you are responsible for that crime. whether he agreed to do it with cohen, that's one way of looking at it. another way is that he actually is responsible for the crime as cohen was his agent. either way, if cohen is telling the truth, donald trump has committed a felony period full stop. that is very, very serious business. there is no way to explain that away as a witch-hunt. this isn't the mueller team doing this. this is a bunch of prosecutors, federal prosecutors doing their job in new york. this isn't about collusion. there's no discussion one way or the other about collusion or the dossier or any of that other nonsense we've been hearing on fox news or the president seemed
to talk about. this is a federal crime and the president's own former lawyer is the one who says he did it under oath. >> wouldn't it be interesting, ariba, you can say whatever you want after this. despite -- whatever comes out of the mueller investigation, let's put that aside. but if what comes out of something that mueller actually referred to the southern district is the thing that trips this president up the most? >> that would be incredibly interesting, don. i don't want to put the mueller investigation aside. i think we should -- >> i mean just for that. just for that. >> i think that would be amazing. but i think it's important for us to note, this is a president that has ridiculed, has taken pot shots at the mueller investigation, has called it a witch-hunt, a hoax, has tried to demean it in the most aggressive way possible. and to date, out of that mueller investigation came the referral to the southern district of new york which led to michael cohen walking into that federal court pleading guilty to those eight
counts. so, trump can no longer try to dee legitimatize the mueller investigation because it's clear today that mueller and his team know what they're doing. they're experts. and they are getting at the bottom of what happened. not just with donald trump, but other people in his orbit. and it says to me today, too, jared kushner, donald trump, jr., other individuals that are in that personal circle of donald trump, we may be hearing something from the special counsel and his team of investigators as it relates to those individuals as well. i don't think they are out of the clear by a long shot. >> fascinating. ariba, renato, i appreciate your time. when we come back bhoegt the president's former campaign chairman and his personal attorney headed to prison. that makes five members of trump's circle who have been convicted of or pled guilty to crimes. what happened to trump's law and order presidency? what happened?
the president's former fixer michael cohen pleads guilty to eight criminal counts the same day the trump campaign chairman paul manafort is convicted of eight financial crimes. remember when donald trump said he was the law and order candidate? joining me now to discuss the cnn political commentator mike shields, former chief of staff to reince priebus at the rnc and republican strategist rick wilson the author of the book everything trump touches dies. gentlemen, good evening. so, mike, sources are telling us white house sources were stunned and rattled by these legal bombshells and the president has been stewing. what's your reaction to what we saw today? >> well, it's obviously not good. you don't want your lawyer to be pleading guilty and also to try and implicate you as he's trying to plead himself out of the sentence that he has or that his wife might get into trouble. i thought it was really
interesting watching michael avenatti disagree with lanny davis on his motives. lanny davis was ascribing michael cohen's motives being patriotism. michael avenatti said it's not patriotism, he's trying to save himself because he's in trouble. that's a really interesting take because it puts in perspective when one admits to being a criminal, a lot of the things they say are really at that point self-serving. obviously, you know, this is something that has to be proven before anyone can reach conclusions. and so the tease was a law and order president. the president ran on that because someone committed a murder. he hasn't been convicted of anything or been found guilty of anything. someone is going to jail accusing him of something. >> what do you think, rick? >> well, look, i think the joke that was making the rounds tonight is right on point.
maga now stands for my attorney got arrested. this is a president who has been surrounded by people, his campaign manager is now a convicted felon. his personal attorney today is pleading out in federal court and implicating the president directly while he was a candidate and law breaking. we have a whole constellation of other trump people who are either pled guilty or cooperating with prosecutors because this is a guy who is standing atop a gigantic mountain of corruption. and he's standing atop a gigantic mountain of 0 be instruction as well. all these things that have been slowly building up for donald trump, this predicate he's been building for months and months and months that this is an unfair witch-hunt by hillary's angry minions is falling apart. people are seeing this now. you can't spin away the fact that paul manafort, who was donald trump's campaign manager, is going to spend the rest of his life in jail. that michael cohen, his personal attorney, one of his closest associates is going to jail.
and for things they did both before and during his administration and his campaign. >> so listen -- >> go ahead. >> i'm old enough to remember being on here with rick, where rick specifically made the point to me, that the cohen investigation had nothing to do with the mueller investigation, and so i think that's an interesting point. because in the manafort case, they're not looking at russia collusion of the trump campaign, they're looking at tax fraud and payments that he had, and he hid, and in the cohen case, that was not a part according to everyone of the mueller case. these are not great things but separate from. >> can i jump in here real quick. and ask you -- >> we're nowhere near the end of the road. >> can i ask you, though. does that change since michael cohen directly implicated donald trump today? he may have said that yesterday or five minutes before michael cohen did that. doesn't that -- does that make a difference? >> not in -- when you -- what
rick was saying is that the president calls this whole thing a witch hunt, what he's referring to is the mueller investigation trying to create a conspiracy case around the president's campaign, and he's repeatedly said there was no such thing, and now we're saying, oh, my gosh, two people around him have gotten into trouble. neither one of them has anything to do with what that was originally about. and what democrats talk about every time they can, about mueller, which is russian collusion, neither one of these two things has anything to do with that. >> go ahead, rick, what were you saying? >> this is the first couple steps in a long waltz. and this is never going to get better. and robert mueller is circling around closer and closer, the cohen thing was ancillary. to the southern district of new york because it was ancillary, the individual charges and case issues were ancillary to the overall investigation. mueller's charter was to explore russian interference and the role the trump campaign may have played with it, any other crimes that may emerge from that, they
have a duty to go ahead and push through on these things. this is the first couple steps in this dance. this isn't the end for donald trump, it doesn't get easier after this, it gets harder, it gets worse, they're going to close in soon. roger stone's going to be staring up at a gray ceiling and a jail cell pretty soon. there are a lot of these guys that are going to be facing continued pressure on this. and the fact of the matter is, i think it speaks to the president's character, the man who promised he was a law and order candidate, would hire the best people. it seems like for a guy who's going to hire the best people, he seems to be hiring the best felons, and there's a long trail of these other people that are already caught up in this, and it's -- it's disproportionate to any other president in modern history, including richard nixon at this point, it's kind of remarkable how many people around donald trump seem to be in legal trouble. >> okay. don't go anywhere, we have much more to discuss. we'll be right back. know what?
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congressional republicans rethink their support for the president? >> it should but we've seen already they're going to do everything they can to avoid the mean tweet from donald trump. as i tweeted back to senator graham, you don't want to grab the fecal end of this stick. he will abandon everyone who supports him. they will be stuck with the radiation and fallout and stink off anything that happens to donald trump legally because he requires they defend him so passionately. and that's a bad bet. relies on two big predicates. first that donald trump ever tells the truth to anyone about anything ever. and second one they believe that donald trump says there's no collusion, nothing there, no conspiracy or contact with russia. we know there was contact. he lies to his friends, allies and members of congress right now and they're buying it like a
bunch of mooks. >> bad bet is what democrats and people who just hate the president like rick have done, spent 1 1/2 years now telling the american people russian collusion, russian collusion, it's been the message into the midterms and wall-to-wall media coverage. and when this happens, public is like this isn't about -- >> also about media conspiracy and -- >> you've harmed your own ability to prop up something that happened today and explain to the american people because spent so long going down the conspiracy path. i worked for newt gingrich in the '90s when president clinton was impeached. whitewater investigation and ended up being about something completely separate, committed
perjury under oath and american people didn't want him impeached for that. that's what happens when you set it up as russian collusion case. democrats win congress, going to impeach the president and blow up in their face like did with us. >> i don't have a lot of time. rick, respond to that. set yourself up. >> situation with donald trump, only easy day was yesterday. more evidence will come out, more things revealed. look at donald trump's money, longer relationship with, denials will ring hollow and everybody else will get the stink on them. believed a man a pathological liar about everything. why tell you truth about one single thing in the universe. >> one thing i know for sure, tomorrow is new day and will be new developments. there are every moment. >> you betcha. >> thanks for watching. our coverage continues.
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he couldn't survive $20 minimum wage? who else would be able to? >> not only are the small business owners getting crushed but also working families. the minimum increase serving designed to help the struggling working poor. that is an absolute provable live. they are hurting working families by raising the price. $5-foot long from subway, $5-foot long, 2019 it was $5-foot long. in california, it is going for a foot long, 7.50-$8.49. that is a 70% increase. we have lost 9500 fast food restaurant jobs since september. 10,000 jobs destroyed. no one is benefiting from the minimum-wage increase in california. >> sandra: people are losing their jobs. some of the workers showed up and their job was gone. they were told to go home. of course, they were upset.
alvin bragg really wants to try it. attorney general barr is right about that. as far as the new case, the georgia case, i think now having studied it a little closer, i think she made a big mistake trying to do this big sweeping conspiracy that i don't think she has. but if she had carved this up in to smaller pieces, she would have had a better chance to get part of it to trial and that would have be doable in a finite period of time. if the courts allow her to do this as one big case, which would end up in one big acquittal on the rico count, even though there's other crimes in there that are more provable, i don't see she gets that to trial in any time before the election. >> neil: interesting. yeah. she's looking to do it by next march around super tuesday. that doesn't look likely as things stands now. thanks, andy. good seeing you. >> thanks, neil.
it's so factually detailed. it doesn't mean that it's provable. we'll wait and see. that's for another day. with respect to the indictment, it looks like they have the goods and then some. so the bottom line is although the prosecutor wants to i try them altogether from a practical perspective, for all the reasons i mentioned, that may not happen. >> super interesting. it's also expect ed that one of the first -- i'm going to call it one of the first moves that trump's team could try to make is try to get this moved out of state court into federal court. pros, cons, likelihood, what do you think? >> a lot of pros for trump for it to go to federal court. he may get a broader jury pool than just in that county. and theoretically, maybe he thinks were he to win the presidency, that having been in federal court would give him greater control over trying to pardon himself or something of that nature. don't think that's going to
statute, and the same kind of charges he once leveled against other people. >> how about that? >> i'm sure some of the defendants and defense attorneys that giuliani went up against are saying karma right now. what goes around comes around. but he fits in perfectly, i mean, giuliani was in georgia promoting false lies to the georgia legislature about hiding of ballots and stuffing the ballot boxes, which we now know giuliani knows was untrue when he said it. that's just amazing. >> yeah, you called it amazing. again, you're looking at this through the lens of what's provable. you're not looking at this politically. politically, people can debate things in public. we have robust protections for that in this country. your freedom of speech doesn't get you to, you know, a defense to go and lie to the bank to get a loan or lying to the s.e.c.
as a trump lawyer to start keeping notes. yeah, he's ipcourt today trying to tell his once on the same team gang friend, hey, we're still good but they're not good. and we know they're not good because of the cooperation. we have other individuals and i said today we don't know exactly know yet what mr. meadows is doing. we do know in the final pages of indictment, you have someone in the room saying what trump said, welcoming the violence late in that day. now, you don't put that in an indictment unless you had a dead to right provable in court. and jack smith is on the book. i would expect on that small list there are people who like mr. corcoran wrote a statement against the defense. >> we know mike pence, his vice president kept contemporaneous notes. we asked did the committee have
the u.s. capitol. and i think that this was a strategic choice by jack smith. he wanted to keep the attention on the fact that he is actually thought were provable, maintaining a sort of surgical precision in that way and not get lost in the dicey maze that consumed i think much of trump's second impeachment trial. the kinds of conduct that he thinks he can prove, they are a lot different than trump's critics generally would use to make a political argument about malfeasance or abuse of power. >> and you explain how difficult this is going to be in terms of a case for the prosecution. because effectively what they are trying to prove is what is trump's mindset was and that is hard to prove with evidence. >> absolutely. for the prosecution, that will be key.
if this were an insurrection charge, if you went back to the violence, you would expect to see militia members as co-conspirators. >> proud boys, oath keepers. >> exactly. >> and intermediaries like powell and flynn. >> or even someone like mr. bannon who were speaking openly about how wild it was going to be. we're going to take it. so, again, you can glean something, the moment -- we have a target letter. if it comes down, you'll glean on page one, which direction smith is going. that tells you about the case he needs to prove. and since we have been patiently waiting, the theme of the day, sometimes people say the biggest case -- if you think the insurrection was bad, you say well, the biggest case possible, that's bigger, bigger is better, we have that in our culture, right? that's not how prosecutors look at it. they look at evidence, what's provable, what's winnable.