my shoulder and any president that puts his hand on your shoulder gets your attention. reagan was one of those historic figures. he said look it took us half a century to get into this mess. i have been the first seven years. maybe you guys will have to do the heavy lifting on your own later. .. >> this is particularly special to me because so many people in this room have been a part of the process of my writing the book. i mean, everybody. i'm looking around and seeing people who counseled me through the book proposal writing process and encouraged me when i thought i could never get it done, friends who called me up to find out about how the book was doing, my family, husband's here, so many people here who basically help me get a book done, and so it's really awesome to be sitting here tonight in a room full of people who have supported me along the way. i even think, actually, over a couple years ago when we moved to maplewood six years ago getting coffee across the street, with a lot of you writing, working on various creative projects, and so it's cool to be here tonight, and so i just want to share a little bit about the story that captivated me for the better part of two years. first, for those of you who don't know, a little bit background about me, jonah's given some, but i'm a journalist, and i've had good fortune to work in television, print, and documentary films over the past 15 years, and, also, when possible to travel in pursuit of a great story, and i just wanted to sort of start out, i guess a lot of people here who know me well wondered how i wrote a book about a computer scientist and mathematician, especially those who know me well. as an english teacher major and writer, i have no experience in computer science. i avoided all math and got through college without taking any of it and didn't pass calculous and the answer to that is simple. it's that the book captivated me enough for the math and not for some of the more sensational moments of the life, but because of the story and what he accomplished, and if you ask me to explain the algorithms today, i can give you a broad explanation, but i can't tell you what's at the heart of them, and people who worked with him or work at the company today still can't, some of them. that gives you an idea how incredible the math was behind what i'm going to tell you a little bit about. so the story of danny really is a come flex one. he had all facets in life that i found difficult to capture in a character study and as a writer, and i'm just going to read a little bit from the preface of the book because that gives you an idea of the seemingly desperate parts of his life and what made the story in some ways for me saying truth is stranger than fiction, and danny's story i believed from the very beginning was more unbelievable than fiction. in the spring of 2011, a friend asked if i was interested in a job producing a film tribute for the 9/11 attacks. that friend is here, mike fouler, thanks for first introducing me to the story. at the time, i had no idea what it would become. the subject takes place with a passenger on the plane that crashed into the north tower of the world trade center. from there, the story takes on a life of its own. the story of daniel, danny mark, the first victim of the 9/11 attack, a story of an extraordinarily gifted young man believing anything was possible and let nothing stand in his way. an all-american kid moving to israel against his will, falling with the country, and serving as an officer in the elite israeli army. trained to hunt and kill terrorists and who, in a tragic twist of irony died at their hands. there was a husband and father who spent years and was a billionaire almost overnight. of a theoretical mathematician that would change the internet forever. that sums up a lot of the story. danny was born in colorado in 1970, and in many ways, he had a typical all-american childhood, the eldest of three boys, child of two doctors, a very bright, interesting family, and there were some ways, however, in which his childhood was a little bit different, and some of the things i learned were early indicators of what was his success in the field of computer science and business. the paimpts believed strongly in nurturing the children intellectually teaching math and science at the kitchen table while others were watching cartoons. the family also had, i learned, the first home computer in their entire neighborhood. their father purchased a kit that you built at home, and then later purchased one of the very first personal computers which was the apple 2. by the age of ten, danny and the brothers, also very talented were teaching all shows in the neighborhood who bought a computer how to program it, but at the age of 14, danny's life took a very unexpected and unwanted turn. his father, who was increasingly enamored with the jewish ideology associated with it uprooted the family and moved them all to israel. danny was a teenager and furious. you can only imagine what that was like if any of you had teenagers if there was teenage rebellion, that was difficult for his parents. he want to israel kicking and screaming and angry and, in fact, some people say really department speak to his father for a year or tried to avoid speaking to his father for a year, but he was really too bright and grounded and some say wise beyond his years to really ever go off the rails in anyceps of the word, and his rebellion, instead, was his own determination to succeed in a way that anybody who challenged him that he would prove anybody who challenged him wrong. he started out at the local gym where he built physical strengths into biblical life proportions, sailed through high school, went to a science and technology school in jerusalem which is still there, and made it through with very little effort and without having to go to class very often, and by age 18, he was really fully entrenched in israel and came to love the country. in some ways, it's a very intense place as probably all of you know and a place where you grow up really fast, and i think that that is what really solidified the character traits in him and pushed him to become the incredibly driven individual. at age 18 like most, he joined the army. that was not uncommon. he lived there for years so it was common to join the most elite unit of the elite army, a counterterrorism unit, and up until the late 80s, it was hand selected, and so when danny decided he was going to make it into the unit, most people were sort of saying, okay, good luck with that, and that sort of begin this path that he went on to defie all of the odds. he was not only admitted, but within two years, he became an officer. from there, he went on to the mit of israel. the israeli institute of tdges where he really became interested in the hardest problem by math and science for the first time. also, the idea he wanted to use the high level math to solve problems, juggling two of the hardest degrees, and at the same time, a wife and two young children and a full-time job at ibm research lab. on top of all this, he won the top student award, and in 1996, he was bound for mit. he was actually accepted to the top ten graduate schools in computer science and engineering, and he decided on mit, and this was one of the really wonderful parts of the story. the reason that danny decided to attend mit was because of one professor in particular. that professor was tom latin, who had been at the lab for computer science for years and was a legend in the rare field of theoretical computer science, and danny pulled the book out of the library one day, and he looked at it and thought this is the person i want to meet. this is the person i want to work with. i have the book at home, this big, and i couldn't even understand the first sentence in the book. [laughter] the title takes up an entire index card, but danny saw the work of something spectacular and more importantly, he learned he spoke the same language as the professor, tom latin, a rare abstract language of theoretical computer science that so few people speak. this was back before the time when anybody knew about the word "algorithm" in terms of sort of an interesting, almost sexy term used today if anybody read the news today. google came up with a new search algorithm announced today with much fanfare, but this was back when algorithms were not really seen as having much practical application. the colleagues were working on a way to end at the time what was call the worldwide waste. if you think back then, when you click and immediately gratified with a response online that back then, the mid to late 1990s, you would click and hear that chirping and the beeping and the modem dialing, and cross your fingers, and then you hear that infuriating message, please wait, server's busy, try again later. you dial up again. the whole thing was very tedious, and it was really, really one of the greatest impediments to the growth of the interpret at that time and certainly the biggest impediment to growth of business on line. if everyone dialed into one website wanting to buy something and they couldn't get there within a few minutes, they'd go somewhere else. everybody was working at the problem in their own way, and most people were working on it in ways that were effective, made sense, giant farms with tons and tons of servers, and if one crashed, the other servers picked up the slack, but then the more traffic increased, the system started to fail as well. people used other sorts of very high level computer science technology like cashing and mirroring, and these all worked, but not on a large scale, so the question before danny and tom and their colleagues at mit was how to scale the internet and how to grow it into something that was actually could be used universally. danny, at the time, was an mitt student looking for a thesis and came up with an idea called caching, a complex idea, a set of algorithms to root data and it's a scheme of assigns data a unique set of numbers, and he wanted to use it and thought he could use it to help root traffic on the internet in a more effective and faster way. fortunately, for him, a lot of people initially didn't see potential in the paper, but tom did, and by 1997, they formed the start of a company that promised to end what was being called the worldwide waste. danny, tom, and the cofounders took the company public in the fall of 1999, grew it very quickly, and they had an ipo in october of 1999 that made them overnight billionaires, break out star of the dot-com boom. i'll read one more select that tells you what it was like at that time. this was a time, again, right at the height of the dot-com boom, and the technology was like a lot of other dot-com businesses at the time, an exciting place to be. 201 # broadway in cam bridge, a nondiscrypt cluster of offices with all the trappings of a trendy startup. whiz kids barely old enough to order a beer showed up on skate boards, a delivery truck had ice cream and pizza. a group of programmers known as the java weeds for the all nighters spent time producing the graffings and took naps in a hammock. will, a student at mit, was one of them juggling course work with the part-time job where he worked overnight overseeing operations. the officer hopping, people rolling in chairs from one desk to the other, tossing footballs and microwaving an endless surprise of burritos. there was so much energy you didn't realize how exhausted you were. it was not uncommon to see two employees playing miniature golf in between a few desks. the atmosphere was so fun and intox kateing it was easy to lose track of time. there was an exciting time, and the company, again, just rocketed to the top they accompanied big names on the web, and in ?erch, the company in the infancy, and so so danny's story is spectacular so the ending to the personal story is not a large part of the book, but it is, obviously, one that people asked a lot about because it is true that danny was the very first victim of the 9/11 attacks. we don't know exactly what happened on that flight on that day, and we never will, but what we do know from the evidence gathered by the 9/11 commission and some very harrowing and courageous flight attendants made to the ground before the flight was steeredded and crashed, we know that passenger in 9b, danny, he was on the way to los angeles that day for a business meeting, was engaged in a struggle with one of the terrorists and was killed when somebody stabbed him from behind at 31 years old leaving behind a wife and two children. yet another tragic twist of irony, that day proved so much of what danny predicted for the internet came true. that day was the web equivalent of a hundred year flood, news organizations, federal agencies turned to the internet for information about the disaster that was unfolding, and websites crashing, fen lines down, and in his short time, danny predicted there was going to be a time where the interpret could not handle the traffic and promised his technology would work to keep these sites live when that happened, and that day, even though the company was struggling. this was after the dot-com bubble burst, struggling financially, and they lost the heart and soul of the company, but they worked through the next few days and kept a lot of the websites live like cnn, if you logged on that day, you may have noticed it went down, but a few hours later, it was back unand stayed live the next few days, and provided an amazing amount of information, largely because of the technology that tom and danny first wrote as professor and graduate student at mi. that's probably enough about his story, but, you know, it's just great to be here tonight to talk about the story. i hope that really the take away from the book is the idea that, you know, there's a quote flt book from the father of computer science has a wonderful thought which is that an algorithm must be seen to be believed. i love that because when danny wrote algorithms as a starving graduate student, a lot of people didn't see the beauty in them or believe what he was proposing to be possible, and there were academic conferences that rejected his paper and professors who said this is crazy. companies said what you're proposing cannot be done. please leave. he knew, and he had faith in a big idea, and so i think the take away from the book, i hope, is to inspire anybody with an idea that's greater than themselves to just go ahead and pursue it no matter what anybody says, and put everything into it, and hopefully is works out so thanks, thank you so much for listening. [applause] i thought you could talk about the challenges you faced. i thought it would be a tough story to follow without the math and science expertise. not an excuse for any of us as a layperson to get into the meat of any of this, and i was curious how you approached that, and were able to. >> a great question. it was intimidating at first because i was writing about all these people, all the characters mostly in the book are still lives and working in the field of computer science, professors at mit, engineers at google and my yo soft, all very smart people. when i first started the book and said, oh, i'm writing the book about tom, and everybody would say the first thing they said to me is, oh, you're writing about -- tom, the smartest guy i've ever met, and this is coming from a ph.d. at mit, and i thought, oh, gosh, did i write about this person, the smartest person they ever met? the wonderful thing about writing about all these people is that, well, tom is a professor and has been for so long, and he was really good about sitting down with me and explaning what the company does and what danny wrote, and in layman's terms, and one of danny's best friends, a marketer for the company, he didn't understand the algorithms, the one hired to do the marketing for the company, but he said my job was to explain it in a way my grandmother would understand, and if i could do that, then i succeeded. that was my take for the book was that if i could explain this in a way, and, you know, i used basic analogies in the book like the pony express, that my grandmother could understand, then i would succeed, and 10 i just approached it from ground level, and i figured i approached it the way i approached any difficult topics in reporting, like, i say to myself, this is just as complicated as political gerrymandering or, you know, treatment for cancer or gene therapy or any story i've done where if you're interested enough, you take it down to a basic level, but i couldn't have done it without the help of everybody and computer sciences who walked me through the language when i was, frankly, excel -- completely lost. >> how much time did you spend in israel? you were speaking with people highly educated, so there was probability not a language barrier, but i was curious. >> no language barrier. the barrier was the fact that danny's family was reluck at that particular time to have -- reluctant to have the story told, and i felt that if i couldn't sit down with them and meet them and talk to them about the book and in some ways get their blessing, it would be very difficult to write. >> right. >> and so the first thing i did before i even really started writing the book was to go to israel, meet with the family, and i had no idea what to expect. they are very religious people, they are lovely people, warm, incredibly intelligent, both parents are doctors, practice in jerusalem, and his brothers are extremely successful in business and high-tech, but they didn't tell me much more than, we'll meet with you in jerusalem. i had an address in jerusalem, never been to israel before, and i don't speak any hebrew, and i got on a plane and went, met my sister who is here tonight, she traveled with me which was great, and the first thing i did was to sit down with them, and i think really what i did was explain to them the story to tellfuls not how he died, but a story of how he lived, and i told them i spent a couple months with the co-producers talking to the people who said just because of danny, i've done this. i've done this. i started this company i never thought i could. i said, do you realize how your son changed people's lives, and with that, they said, okay. i wish i could have spent more time in israel. i visited the company where the professors are still there, and still remember him like it was yesterday. it was really amazing because he just spent three years there. >> wow. cool. well, i'm going to open it up now to questions from the audience. i promisedded my friend, andy, that if he passed around the e-mail list, i'd let him, and i hope you sign up if you are not on already, you can ask the first question. >> all right. i had a great time reading your book, and there was one part of the book that interested me, which you went true quickly and wanted color on what happened. it was the period of time after tom and danny built the model, have the algorithm, but now they have to get it to work. in other words, they have to transfer it over to the servers, and, you know, jumping with a white bard, you know, on to the computers and to make these electrons do their magic was, to me, a really, really impressive part of what they did, and from what it sounded like was it just a bunch of gurnet grads? sounds amazing. >> a great question, one i hit at in writing the book because i, myself, could not understand, and i had danny's notes in my hand, you know, saw all the math, and i couldn't understand how that you're making use of the technology. you just don't see it. use the word "magic," and i think it is a good word because you don't see it, and so much of the power in it is the math, and so answer your question, so that summer, they had an idea, submitted it to the company, was not anything, but then they had some help from some friend in the business school from a business school, and you know, what you are doing could have practical applications if you turn it into a business, and that's where they had a big learning curve, and they described how they described how they went to the library and checked out business 101. they had no idea how to write a business plan. they were academics. they got a lot of help from some folks at savings and loan, friends, bright people who believed in them, but, essentially, yes, they did then say we're going to build a prototype. they already patented the algorithm, early in the process, but build a prototype, program these servers using these algorithms with the intelligent software that will be able to circumvent traffic and route data effectively and content, and how exactly they did that, i don't know. it was the magic of programmers. these guys were undergraduates at mit. i say "guys" because they were all guys, the programmers at that time, and, apparently, the programming is not the hardest part. i mean, it was a lot of long late nights, but they created a prototype essentially by using different floors of mit's lab for computer science. the 7th floor was paris, 6th floor london, 5th floor new york, servers on every floor and simulated web traffic, and by the end of the summer, they realized that the more data and information they loaded into the system, the better it worked. that was just this incredible moment where danny was at belt labs that summer doing an internship, needed money to pay the bills, but they calledded and said, hey, you know, this thing is working, and that's whether they realized, okay, we could have a business model there, but it was not until they had the money to program the servers and place them around the world. >> [inaudible] >> they were computer sciencists. they were programmers. >> next question. >> yes, thank you very much for your talk, enjoyable, and really easy to picture everything you were describing. i'm wondering how you went about the nuts and bolts of recording, especially this difficult information. do you take shorthand? a recorder? what did you do to capture it? >> well, that's a good question. i get that a lot in, like, writing classes and as a journalist, and people look at you nervously with an entire view and you take the notes like she can't possibly be writing all this correctly. i do shorthand, but i record at every interview with a digital tape recorder so i can go back and put it on the computer and have the files there and transcribe every word, you know, precisely, and that's pretty much the secret. i have both though because i had that experience as a reporter where i've gone out with a type recorder that failed somehow, and so i'll never make that mistake again. i only have pen and paper with me as well, but, yeah, tape recordings. i interview almost 120 people for the book, and it was either type recorded in person, or i set up a recorder on my phone so i could digitally record the phone calls and keep all the files, and that's always important too when you write a book about people who are in positions of prominence in case they come back to you and did you misquote it or anything like that. that was important to me. >> hi. >> hi. >> i want to ask a question. so this is, obviously, a very complicated subject. as a writer, what inspired you, that this was something you didn't connect with, you said you were not diversed in math. what was it that made you inspired to write the book? >> great question. it was the person. you know, it's interesting writing about somebody, you know, spending two years, like, inhabiting the life of this character who was so large to everybody who knew him, but i think that to answer your question, i decided to write about him after, again, we did the documentary tribute to him, and i realized early on that we'd be sitting in the room with these people, i mean, seasonedded corporate executives of huge fortune 500 companies, legendary professors at mit, commanders in the israeli army, and every single one of them would look at me and say to this person that they met ten years ago, 12 years ago, inspiredded them to do something today, and i greese, you know, i just felt like that was so unusual for somebody his age, you know, to have died tragically at age 3 # 1 # and left behind this incredible, not only a company and the set of algorithms and flood technology that survived, but all the people who couldn't put a finger on it, but when he walked in the room, that changed the dynamic and made him feel like they could accomplish something. the best part was the technology that's so complicated that when they went out with the white board and mit academic language, you know, people were very confusedded and didn't really understand, but a few people said to me, you know, created an idea that they didn't know what it was, but they knew they had to have it. that was really funny to me. these were people who, you know, wrote checks for a lot of money, and they didn't really understand it, but they just had this sense that this guy was going to be big, and that was just fascinating to me. >> you said he was not that into business, just a scientist. people who new him well, what was that trajectory? somebody who would have been the google ceo type or someone committed to, like, science and things and that? >> well, i got a lot of different answers. i think in some ways, that's the heart breaking question because everybody who knew him, even for five minutes, said to me they were left wondering what he could have done, and pretty much everybody unanimously who i interviewed and also people who knew him, you know, in all different arenas from israel to here said that they have no doubt that he would have been a household name today, and i do think that's, i think he absolutely would have been, and what he would have done, that's fascinating because he was so successful in so many areas of his life, and he would have never been satisfied just to stay at the company he created. in fact, he, after the ipo, the company, one of the first things he did was to go reenroll to do his ph.d. which he never finished because he left to start the company, so he really had -- and somebody told me, actually, they asked him, well, it's going to be so easy for you to go to mit and do your ph.d., just write up the secret thoughts of the company, and you have your ph.d.. he looked at them and said, no way. i would never do that. i have to come up with some great idea, and he was already struggling with what that would be, and so he was never -- he moved so fast, and he really could have accomplished really great things, and so many people noticed him from an early age. i spoke with the cofounder of yahoo, and he told me that tens of thousands of people came through the officers in the first, you know, few years of yahoo's big boom, and he remembered danny and thought, you know, he would have been -- for what it's worth, people who new him, but people in israel said he could have come back, some great people like benjamin netanyahu or others who spent time in the army, in the united states at mit, could have gone back and had a great career in politics in israel. he was very political, and he loved the country. i think he would have gone back to israel at some point and done something amazing there too so i don't know. >> i know we had one in the front. >> [inaudible] >> it's part of the story. they came up with the name -- it's just so symbolic to the dot-com boom. they founded the company when, you know, the big companies were amazon.com and ebay, and names that did not necessarily make sense. they were not traditional blue chip company names. at first it was call cache, a double meaning as the cache of cool, but also cache technology. someone said, you know, that's a terrible name. [laughter] we really need to make this a lot cooler, and it was danny's best friend who was the marketing officer of the company said, you know, what about, i don't know, something hawaiian. it was that sort of impulsive, and he had ties to hawaii, opened up a dictionary, leafed through, and found a bunch of words, and it means in hawaii, clever, cool, smart, and so that was the name, and they came up with a list of hawaiian words, and then that was it. >> speaking of clever, cool, and smart, i know all of your fans are wanting to know what's next for you. could you tell us? [laughter] >> what's next? oh, okay. i don't know yet. i'm actually just -- well, the book came out two weeks ago, and so i'd love to write another book, and i would love to expand on danny's story in some way. i don't know what that'll be, but i think has potentially life beyond the book, and so just thinking about it, i'm very hesitant to, you know, you spend so much time on the story, and the book comes out, and then, i don't know. i would like -- my kids are little, but like a kid leaving for college, you know, i don't want to let go. i'll find i way, i hope, to continue working with the story in some way. >> a movie. >> yeah, sure, maybe. >> now i know speaking of the fans, all the fans want a chance to greet her, buy the book, and sign it. there's a book signing upstairs. i just thank you, molly, so much for coming. >> thank you so much. >> thanks to all of you. [applause] and we have a little present for you. >> thank you. [applause] >> congratulations. >> i really appreciate it. [cheers and applause] >> thank you. [applause] here's a look of books published this week: >> as a young child, i faced racial discrimination, and i didn't like it. ask my mother, father, my grandparents, great grandparents, why racial discrimination, and they would say, that's the way it is. don't get in trouble. don't get in the way. but in 1955 when i was in the 10th grade, 15 years old, i heard of rosa parks. i heard the voice of martin luther king, jr., on the old radio, anded words of dr. king inspired me to find a way to get in the way. in 1956 with my brothers and sisters and some of my first cousins, we went down to the public library in the little town of troy, alabama, trying to get a library card, trying to checkbooks out. we were cold by the librarian that the libraries were for whites only and not for colors, but on july 5th, 1998, i went back to the public library in troy, alabama, for a book signing for my book "walking with the winds," and a hundred of black and white citizens showed up, and they gave me a library card. [applause] walking with the wednesday is a book of faith, hope, and courage. it's not just my story, it is the story of hundreds and thousands and countless men and women, blacks and whites who put their body on the line in a difficult period in the history of our country to end segregation and to end racial discrimination. >> no need to register to join the club. read the book and post your thoughts at any time on our book club chat room, booktv booktv.org/bookclub. >> mr. gardener recounts the infamous gangs robbery of the first national bank of northville, minnesota on september 7th, 1876 and the two week man hunt that followed. this is an hour and ten minutes. >> it is friday night. going to have some kind of a show. you know, i found that the best time machine is music. books are a close second, and i really try to transport the reader back in time with my books, but music gets you there instantly. you hear a bob dylan song, back in the 60s. you hear a steven foster song, you're back in the 19th century. let's go back in time to 19th century missouri when even in the worst of thymes in a civil war and in later the notorious james unger gangs, people had great songs and music that they sang. ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ [applause] >> thank you. [applause] all right. 1876. you know, that summer, june 25th on the banks of the little big horn river, montana territory, george, arm strong, customer, and 200 men in his command are wiped out by lakota and chiian warriors. that summer, a man was shot in the back of the head in deadwood, south dakota, wild bill. there were swarms of locusts that covered the skies of the midwest. thousands and thousands devouring the barley, oats, and wheat of minnesota and iowa and missouri. the damage was so extensive, for the last several years, that amounted to 8 million dollars by 1876, and that's 1876 dollars. the panic of 1873 was still felt in 1876. it cost all kinds of jobs. it dropped the prices of crops. many businesses failed. the grand administrationfuls rack with scandal. corrupt officials part of the administration, and there were all kinds of hearings going after various parties, but there was one thing that was very, very exciting in the summer of 1876, and it was occurring in philadelphia, the famed centennial exposition. tens of thousands of people visited the exposition every day, and they saw all marvels, wonders, inventions like telephone, typewriters, telescopes, a rapid fire weapon, a foot pedal drill for dentists, the newest life sailing devices for sailors, all kinds of wonders there going on. there were so many people going to the exposition that there were special trains that left from all points from the west, the midwest, and you got a special ticket to take you to philadelphia. tens of thousands of people each day went through the gate, and thousands of people rode the railroads east ward to visit the amazing thing. in northfield, minnesota, the banks' cashier went with his family to philadelphia to see the fair, and the other employees had to fill in while he was gone for a couple weeks there in september. while all these people were going east to the fair, in missouri, there were eight men that boarded a train about st. joseph, missouri, going north, and they were not going any fare. they were going to have a little fun in the place of minnesota to spend a couple weeks up there. they were the notorious james unger gang, jim, bill, and charlie pits. they had about their persons three to four resolvers each, loaded down with ammunition in the belts, and they rode with dusters on over their clothing. now, historically, a tocker is met to protect the nice clothes from the dirt of the road. there's not any paveed roads in 1876. when you ride a horse, you get pretty dusty. they were met to protect the clothing, but they concealedded weapons handedly. why minnesota? why would the gang, again, the horse back outlaws, most successful outlaw band in american history, why go north? in july of 1876, there was a successful haul at rocky cut missouri, near otterville, the town of otterville today, the small town, on the banks of the river. they got $15,000, but the first big mistake came from the robbery, and that was a new recruit. they recruited someone who was not really quite as trustworthy and was not as loyal and seasoned as the rest of the gang. his name was hobs carrey. now, hobs carrey's share of the loot was $1200 from the 15,000 hall, but he was obvious about spending the money, and after a short time, he was out of it all but $20 # lost in the gamble halls of joplin and elsewhere. the police on to him, they captured him and questioned him, and hobs confessed everything. not only did he confess the role in the robbery, but named all the other gang members part of the gang. he also told about where they like to hide out. he learned quite a bit in the short time with the gang, so it immediate it fairly hot in missouri for the jameses and the ungers and others because of the detectives on the trail. when it was hot for them, they went to a place where they were least expected. minnesota was that place. no one in minnesota ever expected the gang to go there, and they were not hunted there. there was another reason to go to minnesota, and that was revenge. jesse james, if anything, was all about revenge starting with the civil war and the bush whackers, retaliation, getting back to the federals for what they have done or perceived to have done, and later as an outlaw, someone attempted to harm jesse or his family, he was out to get them, and this was well known, and there was a man from liberty, missouri, an attorney named samuel hardwick, who made the mistake of assisting allen pinkerton's efforts to capture the james brothers, and he worked with pinkerton for a midnight ride in missouri in january of 187 a. in that raid, the pinkertons surrounded the house, threw through a window, broke a window and tossed in what's known now as an incendiary device to start a fire to light the interior an set the house on fire, but what it did was explode. it didn't just set a fire. it was called a grenade. they thought it was intended to blow up the house from the beginning. they were not in the house as believed, but the family was there, and jesse's mother maimed for life, am pew fitted her arm, and worse, jesse's half brother, a young boy, was killed, fatally wounded by the exploding device. once jesse learned that hardwick had a role, not hard to learn this because somehow the news got to the newspapers. the pinkertons couldn't keep a lid on it. it was known that hardwick played a role in the raid. the first thing hardwick did was move from the farm outside the town into the town of liberty for protection. he went about armed when he was going about his business, but after a few months, the pressure was too much, and hardwick fled the state, and the place he fled to was st. paul, minnesota. it was known he went there because he wrote letters back to the paper, and jesse was a reader of the newspapers and learned where hardwick was. there's reasons to go to minnesota, hide out, and the other to get a chance for revenge on hardwick. these eight men arrive in minnesota by train. they first go to the twin cities, and they spend a couple weeks in st. paul, in minneapolis, and now they have a lot of money on them from the rocky cut robbery. they go to the gambling halls. 2341876, it's wide open towns. there are gamebling high schools. they were trying to keep their identities secret, they felt pretty relaxed and pretty safe in minnesota, and they did draw lots of attention to themselves by the way they talked. they had a missouri draw or dialect that stood out in minnesota, and the way they dressed, again, i mentioned they had dusters, broad rimmed hats, tall boots with big spurs, the big spurs, not something you normally saw in places like st. paul and minneapolis. they also committed several social faux pas wearing the hats in the dining room of the hotel. you know, they actually drew a lot of attention to themselves, but the interesting thing is that the people there, although they were curious, and they questioned them about where they were from and where they came from, they believed the lies of land speculators, cattle men, and once they gave the explanations, the alibis, the characterizations, people believed them and did not question them anymore. .. the first place they decided on was mankato minnesota. mankato had three banks and they scouted out each one of them. they ride into town but there is a large crowd on the street that day and not only is there a large crowd in front of the bank but they are pointing at the outlaws. they are pointing at them and they are worried. they think they are discovered and in fact earlier that day there was a man who recognize jesse james. he claimed to have been from clay county missouri and he knew that james assante said hello jesse how are you doing? jesse tried to ignore him and roadway but this man went into one of the banks and said you better look out because i just saw jesse james and the bank people laughed at him. no way would jesse james be up here. later they believed him but not then. there are all these people pointing at them and they had an encounter earlier where someone who thought they knew jesse james and so they rode out. what turned out to have been the reason all these people were pointing at them they were pointing at the really nice horses that they were writing because they have spent a lot of their money on horses. $200 or more at peace for the saddle mounts. it was very unusual in minnesota to see someone riding a saddle horse. generally when you travel about in minnesota you went in a buggy or hooked up to a wagon and drove into town. he didn't see people riding horses especially groups of five or six or were happy so these people not only did they see these beautiful horses but also was unusual. then these dusters they wore were almost identical. almost made him look like they were wearing uniforms to some extent so when more than two or three were together it was in usual and drew attention. they could've brought the bank and mankato but they didn't. the second choice was northfield minnesota about are the miles south of st. paul. northfield was appealing for a couple of reasons. one is it was a town of 2000 people. it was a college town carleton college just a few years old at that time but northfield only had one bank. mankato had three banks of the logic of the outlaws was gee all the money must be in this one bank. it would a divided up in mankato but what was very appealing to people like jesse james who was a true southern partisan and headstrong southern political beliefs one of the investors of the northfield bank of first national bank was a man named delbert haynes. delbert haynes was first commander in the civil war and later successful as joshua lawrence chamberlain famous for his -- but he was the general in the civil war. after the war he was a governor of mississippi that carpetbag governors how they referred to him down south. he had done a great turbulent administration there and in fact once the democrats gain control of the mississippi legislature they threatened impeachment and rather than be at impeach delbert haynes resigned and went to northfield because his family operated a milling business they're in northfield. in fact the main part of town is e-mails square and the mill was jesse eames and sons and they operated that smell. today it's small to mail their so if you buy a serial it's it says northfield minnesota. this was very appealing. it has the money of a carpetbagger and jesse like the idea of writing out of town with thousands of dollars at belonged to this carpetbagger who had flocked to the north of the civil war. the date for the robbery september 7, night -- 1876. they ride in twos and threes and come from different directions. about 10:00 in the morning some of the gang members actually go into the first national bank right on division st. and this was a very common procedure when they robbed a bank. they would go in and ask to have a bill changed as a 10-dollar bill. this gives them an opportunity to see where the cash during the safest and how many employees are working that day so they did going to the bank and these individuals leave. some of them go and have a meal at a local restaurant. some of the gang were seen in the saloons in town having a few drinks and then later about 2:00 the men start converging on the first national bank. three men were to go into the bank and pick up the robbery. two would be on the street and then three would hang back in mills square to protect their estate route. the three men that entered the bank are frank james bop younger and charlie pitts. the men who are going to be on the outside in the street are carl miller and cole younger and jesse junior younger and -- sitting on their horses in mills square. almost immediately people are suspicious. in other townspeople curious but in northfield there was this foreboding when they saw these men. there were individuals who stopped and said this doesn't look right. they saw the dusters and the saddle horses. there was one man actually followed for three men frank bob and charlie as they went to the bank and went inside. he tries to get into the bank but he had gotten off of his horse and was going to close the door and he meets js alan face-to-face and grabs him and says don't you holler. of course js alan struggles and breaks free and runs down the street. what does he do? he hollers and he says get your guns boys they are robbing the bank and its heard all down the street. there's a young gentleman sitting in a chair across business trade a young medical student. he is having a break from college and he sees what is happening and he immediately stands up and yells robbery, their robbing the bank. the alarm has gone off really within seconds of the gang trying to rob this bank. as soon as js alan rounds the corner around the scriber block he is yelling the bank is being robbed in their men on the streets that hear him. almost immediately people start going for their guns. the citizens are not going to allow the bank to be rocked. they are not going to allow them to take their money. you have to remember at this time there's no federal deposit insurance to protect your funds to let that money is stolen you are not getting it back. it's gone. really they are rubber ring each person individuals there's an incentive for them to resist these robbers. they don't know who they are at this time. they only know that someone is robbing the bank. where did they go to get their guns? in minnesota people were out walking around with a six shooter on their hip. they're certain places know where the guns are and where you buy a gun is a hardware store. just around the corner from the banker to hardware stores and one of the stores as soon as they hear the alarm and people are shouting and there's all this commotion one of the employee starts taking guns out of the cases and laying them on the counters with ammunition so they are grabbing shotguns and revolvers. one of the hardware -- store owners had a rifle at the window at the front of the store. he grabs his rifle and races up to the corner and they start blasting away at the ministry. by this time the three men have ridden around the corner to support the guys inside the bank so you've got five men out of the street riding back-and-forth shouting at townspeople get back inside. go back, get back inside with their guns over the heads to scare them and to get them away so they can buy time. now you can imagine the confusion for people in northfield. everyday citizens may be shopping or in a store and they see these riders going back and forth. it does not enter their minds that something bad or horrible is happening. it defies any kind of logic that something like this would have been northfield. there has to be some other explanation to what's going on. it turns out that they're supposed to be a big show by evolutionist named professor lindgaard and professor lindgaard was going to have a show and part of the show he had two balloons that were going to rise up and he was going to do this for the public. they get people to come inside and pay for the show. some of the first thoughts are oak of us is to advertise the show. this is not any kind of a robbery or a shootout. this is a great way of advertising the show. there is a dentist matt has an office on the upper story on the second floor not far from the bank and he steps out on the landing. as he steps out the robbers guild get again and they are firing towards him and their stuff popping off of the building. he jumps back in and ask what's going on? that's probably a wild west show going on terry at he goes back and get shot at again. it took a couple of times. it was so beyond imagination that this would be happening in this little town of 2000 people were these horrible things don't happen in northfield. this is going on constantly. initially the outlaws are not shooting to kill. the townspeople are shooting to kill. they are actually trying to kill liesman that they have determined are the robbers and the bad guys and sell manning with his remington rifle takes a a -- at the robbers. he kills one of the horses and the collapses in front of the bank. he has to run back to get another round in. henry beeler the medical student there was an old civil war -- in the house hotel which is stored to down so he runs through the alley and cousin and grabs the carving and goes upstairs into the danbury house and has a perfect view down below where the writers are -- riders are going down. he fires insensible it through his artery and quell miller falls and bleeds to death right there on the steps. one man is already killed and sell manning a little bit later shoots him dead and he's lost two members on the street. the seconds are ticking ben devries in the seconds are ticking by are because of the her rogue employee in the bank. he remembers the cashier when to philadelphia to the exposition? amanda took his place was the treasurer. that day he was the acting cashier. his name was joseph lee haywood. the three men burst in and alonzo bunker leads him to the window and they have got three revolvers pointed at his head. at first you think some friends are playing a joke on him. nobody robs -- who are these guys? quickly he realizes these men are up to no good and they are very serious. they keep yelling who is the cashier? cashier? where is the cashier? alonzo bunker silent and frank wilcox and other employees silent teary joseph lee haywood is at the desk cashiering and he says calmly he's not in. the cashier is not in today and he wasn't. they all jump over-the-counter and who is the cashier? frank james says you are the cashier. open the safe. he resist. often the people in charge whether it's the cashier or an agent would try to deceive robbers and outlaws so the first thing joseph says it's on the time law. he probably heard the story that time law. time locks were just coming into vogue at this time. a time lock was designed to be engaged at the end of the business day and to disengage at the beginning of the business day so no bank and its right mind would have a time lock engaged. they couldn't conduct any transactions. the whole reason for a time lock to prevent outlaws from kidnapping of banker in the middle of the night and taking them to the bank. as a time lock on there and it doesn't matter whether you're the owner or teller at cashier you can't open that safe until the clock strikes the right time and disengage but the outlaws new this was a lie to buy time by haywood and they said that the lie lie open the safe. frank james starts to go into the ball than haywood leaps over and tries to slam the vault door on him. there's a scuffle so all this commotion and confusion resistance which they weren't expecting as the seconds ticked by and it's making it deadly for the men in the street and that is what they lose 10 men. all kinds of things are happening as haywood bought time inside the bank. with the gang didn't know was that had he gone into this vault and tried to handle that safe that was open and have been unlocked the bulbs were not disengaged and if you turn the handle and pull it open there was $15,000 in that state. instead they are rummaging around looking for the cash drawer. bob younger and subscripting up some spare change and scripts. it's about $26.40 and that's all he gathers. they never get into the ball to never get into the essay. while they are struggling with haywood alonzo bunker the teller panics because he sees frank james draw his revolver and pointed towards haywood and then he fires it over haywood said. unhcr doesn't know this but this is to scare haywood and to shock them into opening the safe and alonzo bunker thinks they just murdered haywood and alonzo bunker bolts and runs for the backdoor. charlie charlie runs after empires one shot and hit the blinds back to the door and unhcr burst out the back. charlie follows him and shoots at him again and the bullet hits bunker shoulder. he staggers and keeps running. this is the confusion the robbers are dealing with and things are going wrong. anything that could go wrong did go wrong as they are trying to rob this bank. frank james fires and charlie runs a knife along haywood's throat. haywood is not cooperating. in fact he's basically knocked senseless and yells murder, murder. he hits him with his revolver and at this point cole younger keeps writing up to the door of the bank and says, out there shooting all of their men. he writes up three different times and finally bought younger and charlie pitts burst out the front door and look for the horses and bob younger's horse is dead. frank james is the last one to leave and out of pure meanness and spite and vengeance is his crawling over-the-counter he aims his revolver at haywood and puts a bullet right through his head and murders him. frank wilcox witnesses the murder and then he he flees at the backdoor himself. frank james rushes out and they are scrambling for horses. bob younger races down the sidewalk. people like and sell manning are shooting and cole younger says kill that man on the corner. they're dodging back and forth along the stairwell and finally he start shooting through the stairway and trying to get and sell manning. most of the gang are mounted in bob younger as he is there at the corner there is one more shot that comes from the danbury house motel. it shatters bob younger's elbow. bob younger cooley tosses the gun to his left hand and keeps blasting away but as the men are writing off he looks back and says don't leave me i'm winded. cole younger gallops back up and post them on the horse and six men galloped out of town and leave two of their men dead in the street. it only takes about seven minutes for this to transpire. it was seven minutes of high excitement of terror and mass confusion and it truly was a melee in the street. joseph lee haywood is the hero because he has prevented these funds from being taken from the bank say. to give you another motivation for haywood to resist the robbers combat haywood was also the treasure at carleton college. he know all the money from the college was in that safe. had that money been taken the college could have been around so he had lots of incentives to resist these robbers. there were other heroes in addition to haywood. there were some individuals who couldn't find guns so they threw rocks at the robbers. not only were they dodging olives but dodging these missiles coming through the air and disrupting and distracting them. another hero is a man named george bates. george bates is a drug is. the first thing he finds is a shotgun. they can't get the shotgun to work so he tosses the shotgun aside and gets a hold of the new revolver but there's no ammunition. this is what he does. he steps into a doorway and every time a rider or outlook comes he shouts now i've got you. this would distract the robber and he would laze away. he would wait for the next robber and jump out, i've got you. that was his way of disrupting the robbery. so these men wright out of town. what comes after is a two-week manhunt and the manhunt is very detailed in my book the largest manhunt in u.s. history up to that time and also the largest gathering of man hunters up to that time. in fairness these people were shopkeepers and farmers. there were a few professionals at the james-ganger gang if you are experts at anything it was getting away. they were experts at escaping and alluding posses. they had done it that ever since the civil war. they were very adept at getting away from these posses. one of the things that was so disappointing there were two professional police forces in minneapolis and saint paul and they were immediately telegraphed sent men send guns we have had two men killed. not only haywood but a local citizen had been fatally wanted. they needed help from the professionals. st. paul and in the opposite of always been highly competitive and sports business and it turns out they are very competitive when it came to chasing outlaws. they were jealous. they did not want one forest to get all the glory so they refuse to work together. have they worked together there is a good chance that this manhunt would have stopped sooner but they would not. the gang was also good at spinning their lies as they are riding through the woods of minnesota to the west and southwest of northfield. whenever they encountered a farmer for someone on the road they'd say we are looking for horse thieves. we are the posse after the outlaws and people accepted it. people were very innocent at that time and he saw a bunch of guys with guns and oh yes could we borrow a saddle? go and get those outlaws that they were good at fooling people as they were escaping through the minnesota woods. the other thing that assisted them with a detriment to their escape was the bit was his cell. the big woods doesn't exist today in minnesota but at that time it was 100 miles long and 4260 miles wide. it was very thick all kinds of hardwoods and underbrush. there were no good maps and the policies often got lost especially if the posses were from around there because they have posses from all over the state. the outlaws were getting lost as well and often they had to take captive guys to help them fully and escape the men who are chasing them. near mankato what really led to the downfall of a portion of the gang was when they captured a man named thomas jefferson dunning. they wanted him to guide them around and mankato is very complicated. of course it was the edge of the big woods. thomas jefferson dunning wasn't the best guide and he also told some stories which confuse the outlaws. some of over obvious lies. he said he didn't really know the terrain. he said his family would be looking for them because they were expecting him back right away. the gang has a meeting and decide we can't use this guy. what do we do with him? apparently frank and jesse wanted to kill thomas jefferson dunning. the younger brothers did not want to kill him. the younger brothers prevailed and they made thomas jefferson dunning promised not to say anything. they said if you don't say anything give us your address and we will send you a nice gift once we get back to missouri. but if you do give us up it doesn't matter if it's six months from now or 10 years or 20 years we will come after you. thomas jefferson dunning is let go and he goes right to his house and he doesn't report it immediately. he's really stressed about what should i do. eventually decides to tell his boss and hopes the outlaws are captured. the lost ries straight into mankato on by this time a lot of the man hunters had given up. the police forces were heading back home and people thought the outlaws had skipped. this really put new life into the manhunt and all of a sudden the minneapolis and st. paul detectives turned around and head towards mankato and get on the trail of the outlaws. they almost capture them just outside of mankato at a place called pigeon hill but again it was the jealousies that allowed the outlaws to escape. instead of waiting for the rest of the posses one of the police forces decides to forge trade ahead and grab the glory. they made such a commotion and racket as they were chasing them the outlaws realized they had somebody close on their tail and left the campfire. in fact a fire was still burning some of the posse members said they saw some of the brush where the outlaws have just fled. anyway this rush defeated the efforts to capture the gang. they had a heated argument and jesse and frank told the younger brothers we should have killed thomas. the younger and the others had such horrible wounds that it was lying them down. his elbow had shattered and it was very painful. jesse suggested they leave behind in the younger brothers decided to split up. as evidence as soon as jesse and frank take off they steal a couple of horses and they get away. they actually escape all of the posses and more posses as they are writing through southern minnesota into iowa. the younger brothers only make it to the area around miguel you north of the deal you minnesota. there is another hero to the story and my favorite hero. his name was oscar sorbo. he was a teenager and he's out in front of his house north of miguel you. he is milking the family cow. it was so muddy wet that they actually lead their cows up to the road. i should mention after the robbery was committed there were two weeks of the most awful downpours of any of minnesota resident had seen before. these outlaws were trudging through swamps and drudges. there were 7000 lakes and between the each lake was a marsh so it was quite visible. oscar sobel and his dad are milking cows. two strangers come walking down the road in one of them runs his hand along the top of the cow and he says good day and the father says good day. as soon as they walk by oscar sobel said that is the outlaws. the father says those were nice man. keep milking. no, oscar finish ease his pale and starts following them. his dad says you be careful. oscar is out on the road in the gills back to his dad see how nice these men are? look at these tracks. and the tracks were prints because the soles of their boots had worn off. they actually had toe prints in the mud from the bottoms of their boots. oscar sorbo knew these guys were the outlaws. he followed them at a distance and software that tracks when into a patch of woods and goes racing back and says i want to tell the neighbors what's going on. his father again is really hesitant and reluctant. these are the outlaws and you're going to get hurt. oscar sorbo runs to the neighbors and alerts them. he says i have to alert the sheriff and the father again no, we afford to do in the horses hitched up to the wagon. sorbo will not take no for an answer and finally his father agrees to let him take the farm horse. it's a big overweight horse and oscar is galloping into town seven miles and the horse is pretty much exhausted and collapses. they both go tumbling and oscar is covered with mud head to toe. he does get to the town of medelia amick said to where the sheriff is and he says i spotted the robbers. he thinks he's crazy. he's covered with mud and what does this kid know about outlaws? he says one of the men we saw had his arm in a sling so that the sheriff said those are our men. they take off. the shops are closed and people take horses and buggies and go racing for lake hans stood to capture these outlaws. they are surrounded on the river. there's a shootout. bob jim and cold receive even more of wounds. cold younger said he had 11 wins from these episodes in northfield and here and in fact when the brothers are captured jim younger and coal are so shut up that the doctors to treat them think they're going to die. jim younger went took a -- that one up to the roof of his mouth. their pictures as you will see in the book taken after they were captured and you can see how awful some of these ones are. cole younger side was swollen up the doctors thought they were going to die but one of the most amazing things after these men are captured and this was the biggest story in minnesota ever about the outlaws hunt. huge crowds calmed to medelia to see the outlaws and there is a shift. people are sympathetic to the outlaws. they killed two men in northfield but these outlaws are famous. they seem to be nice boys. they are christians and there is one big crying j.a.g. after another as people go through and talking about their childhood in their troubles in the war and quoting the bible. people are brought to tears especially the women. half younger who is a handsome chap they bring him bouquets of flowers. every town these outlaws go through on their way to the jail in fair bow they are basically celebrating. people want to shake their hands it's a cultist celebrity. even the minnesota newspaper said these men had it not been such a horrible thing they were doing this is one of the most amazing feats that they were able to last this long and two of them frank and jesse escaped to missouri. just to finish up the story and i detailed a manhunt in the book cole younger jim younger and bob younger are charged with murder for the death even though none of them shot. they are charged with murder. they're likely to be convicted by a jury but there's a peculiar long minnesota on the folks that allow them to escape the hangman. the outlaws said that only a jury could administer the death penalty. only a jury could do that so if you plead guilty to murder you don't have a jury. you have to judge that decide your sentence. the judge can't give the death sentence. he can only give life in prison so all three men plead guilty before the judge. there is no jury colon they get life in prison. they spend over 24 years in prison. bob younger doesn't make it out of prison. he has died from tuberculosis and cole younger felt that bob received wounds to the long and he thought they made them susceptible. jim and coal are paroled. they are not allowed to leave minnesota and you can kind of imagine guys who never had real jobs before it was hard finding work. these are middle-aged men now so they find jobs for them. the first job they get they are traveling salesman selling tombstones. jim younger eventually gets a job in a cigar shop but he felt like he was a freak. the famous outlaw and killer jim younger. jim younger suffers depression. he wanted to marry a woman but because he was a ward of the state he had to get permission from the governor was denied and he committed suicide. that suicide -- he is told that he must never come back to minnesota. he doesn't want to come back he also cannot exhibit himself for-profit. he returns to missouri and dies in 1916 at the age of 72 kind of a beloved figure in missouri. frank and jesse most of you know that story. jesse is assassinated by his own gang members. northfield really is a direct line to that the assassination. once the james younger gang is broken up they don't have the same men. these aren't guys that can stand out in the street and take bullets. they are not loyal or trustworthy and certainly alvin charlie ford were not trustworthy as it turns out and they assassinate jesse. they are in collusion with missouri's governor. jesse was very suspicious and i think frank thinks if they can get to jesse they can get to me. he surrenders. part of the deal for his surrender is that he will never be sent to minnesota and the governor honors that deal. when minnesota sends a requisition for frank james it's denied consent dock with the excuse that frank had several charges that frank is never sent to minnesota and he never goes there as well. frank lives to a ripe old ages well. he dies in 1915 but once cole gets out of prison franken cole had always been friends and thought together in the war and that friendship was maintained especially since cole younger and the other brothers would never reveal who the two men were. they never said publicly that it was frank and jesse james. have they said that that would have been a a reason to get frank tried in minnesota. right after cole gets out he goes to the partnership with frank james on a wildwood show called the cole younger and frank james wildwood show. remember they couldn't profit by exhibiting him -- themselves. he gets around it. he does not appear as part of the show. it wasn't a very long-lived episode. there was a falling out from the partners that they had. they remained partners until the end of their days. i guess you know the thing that struck me the most about this story were two things. the townspeople that took up arms and thought this gang of outlaws and defended their town but also the thing that struck me was how two men actually escaped the largest manhunt in u.s. history up to that time. it was incredible and it still remains incredible. we still don't know exact no frank and jesse made their final way to missouri. it's still a bit of chemistry that the northfield raid one of the events in the history of the james younger gang. i should throw and i'm a native masseur and born and raised here and i wanted to revisit that legend. when i grew up jesse was a hero to me and i wanted to visit the real jesse. i thought this particular episode had not uncovered in as dramatically as it could be. i want to end with one song and i know we are going to take a few questions. the song is a historic ballot called cole younger that talks about the northfield raid and on my new cd called outlaws songs of rustlers robbers and rogues. i usually do this on the banjo. this is a tenor guitar so i want to play it. thank you all very much. ♪ i love to talk about the old west. ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ [applause] >> thank you. >> we have cameras in the back with c-span filming. if you have a question please come to the microphone to ask it >> i guess i was going to say after they captured the youngers that to james boys escaped. when was the next sighting of them? was it months later in missouri? how long did it take them to get from when they left minnesota back to missouri? >> the james boys were in missouri by early october and they really were never cited. the detectives felt like they had a lead and they have discovered. they had spies in jackson county and clay county. counties. in fact there was one man that they tracked to a doctor's home near independence and this man had a nasty wound above his knee. that was the same place that frank was supposed to have been. the st. louis police chief said his detectives to independence to sneak around and see as this are manned? the detectives telegraphed back yes this is frank james. they send more men and surround the house and captured this man. they drug him out of the house and took him straight to st. louis. they let the st. louis newspapers know that they captured frank james. it wasn't frank james. his name was john gooden. the st. louis police chief really didn't want to give up on this man. he may not be frank james but i know he rode with jesse from minnesota and he is one of the robbers. he wasn't. he would received a wound in a squirrel hunting accident is doctor signed a paper saying he was being treated. he was essentially essentially kidnapped in end up suing the police chief for $20,000. >> and body. >> the robberies on september 7 and after four weeks they were back in missouri if not sooner for short time and then they went to tennessee. >> did you ever do any research into the man who claimed to be jesse james when he was at merrimack caverns about 30 years ago? >> his name was dalton wright? >> j. frank dalton. >> he wasn't jesse either. >> did you do any research on that? >> i really didn't. there are lots of stories of various outlaws who supposedly were not killed. butch cassidy was in killed billy the kid wasn't killed john wilkes-booth wasn't killed. the thing about jesse james is of all those faces the most solid evidence was photographs and in the photographs he suffered two wounds in the civil war to his lungs and those scars are very visible in the photographs. frank's family identified him as jesse james so i mean there is no question that jesse was killed. there was more than just dalton. there were several impostors that claimed to be jesse over the years. in fact there were lawsuits by the james family suing individuals who claimed to be jesse james. it's these cases that led to the dna examination several years ago in the 1990s where they exempt jesse's body and carney. the family wanted to end this once and for all but it didn't. it's never going to end no matter how much evidence. >> also i am sure you visited northfield and the little museum they have their. i was there a year ago and it's really quite interesting. >> it's spectacular. it's been restored to 1876 the way it was at the time of the robbery. there were furnishings that were there at the time and every september -- i was a fair couple of weeks ago they reenact the raid in seven minutes time. it's called the defeat of jesse james days. several times a day in front of thousands of people they reenact this. they have bleachers set up on the other side. i will say this as an historian i really relish the opportunity to see people on horseback even as scale. you don't always get that when you're researching subjects and here i was in front of the actual bank seeing none -- people on horseback and i feel like that helped me on the description of the robberies in my book too presented as a accurately and exciting and terrifying as it was at that time. >> he hi. i'm curious about some of your background and training as a historian. >> okay well i was born and raised in missouri. my family took vacations every summer and we looked at every battlefield and historic house that there was. national park sites but you know i majored in history and journalism and double majored in college and did american studies for my masters degree. my summer jobs i worked for the national park service. i spent one summer in harpers ferry and another summer at the stonewall jackson house in lexington virginia but i've always been fascinated by history and i also like to write about history. of course do the thing is that in my pursuit in my research of various subjects i'm a music lover too. i would find references and journals to a particular song orange demand and i would make note of that as well and they feel is a said earlier that music is a great time machine. i really try to mimic that with my writing and make my book of valid source to tell that story. >> i i'm also from missouri and i have been down highway 44 and seen that jesse james hideout and the caverns and all that kind of stuff so i'm aware of it being kind of a celebrity but i was taken aback when you said he was a hero. i would like you to explain because i'm not sure exactly how you meant that. and then movies. which one do you think most accurately portrays the northfield raid? >> okay, sure. he's not a hero to me now. he was a childhood hero and i think obviously jesse the qualities that made him or that i saw as heroic was the myth. he grew to become a robin hood and we put adjectives on him that he did not really have. he never gave to the poor. he gave to himself but shortly after he was killed the song was created where robert ford is the coward. he shot jesse in the back and there were novels in the movies that came out. jesse has been transformed and the superman that fought the railroad like the real words -- railroads were the enemy and they mean bankers were going take the house because of the mortgage payment and that's a story you see over and over again. that is why he was a hero and there are people that still look up to jesse today that are out there but the real jesse and again one of the reasons why wanted to revisit the subject. i wanted to see the real jesse james in what he was like anne frank and the gang members themselves. he is very different than the legend of robin hood. as far as movies there have been several and i think it's a really good thing to bring up. several movies have featured the northfield raid and almost always in these movies they show the northfield raid as a trap and that the people know ahead of time. what that tells me is people might find it hard to believe that this group of criminals could be defeated by everyday citizens to it's got be a trap. that's exactly the way it happened. my favorite jesse james movie is the assassination of jesse james starring brad pitt. i think it's very accurate except for the aspen trees. it was found in canada but it's a beautiful sound and i think brad pitt is the best jesse james i have ever seen on film. tyrone powers is great and robert wegner is great. robert duval is a good jesse but the best characterization of in my opinion is greg pitt -- brad pitt. >> if any of. >> if any of the outlaws have any descendents and my second question is if you fire you can pull off six shots so how have we were these men armed and did they have several revolvers on them and what type? >> so as far as descendents yes there are descendents of the james family. both frank and jesse have children. jesse left two children a boy and girl and frank had a son robert franklin james. the younger brothers did not have any children but they had nieces and so there are tangential offshoots from the younger family that are still out there. i was actually contacted recently by a relative of till chadwell and he had a photograph that he was always wondered if he'll chadwell was related. turns out this ancestor was the brother of bill chadwell named jim sir -- jimmer james chadwell. i ran into all types of people descended from the citizens that fought back as they encountered the gang as they escaped through minnesota. i met a relative of nicholas gustafson. there was a family that encounter the robbers before they were captured in a shootout on the river the thompson family. there were a lot of descendents out there and i get lots and lots of e-mails and i get lots of people with great stories about jesse and frank watered their horses and a horse trough. a good buddy of mine has a hope that belonged to jesse's horse. yeah. i think it probably is. why would you go to the effort to polish it up and make it presentable? what was the second one? the guns. they did not carry rifles or shotguns. they did not carry shoulder guns but they did have multiple pistols sometimes three or four revolvers to give you as my firepower as possible. that goes back to their days as loesh whackers at in these guys are like calvary. they have multiple revolvers to get off multiple shots. at that time each chamber had to be loaded individually. by 1876 they are used to caring several. their favorite weapons are the top weapons of the day. the cold army revolver and the smith & wesson russian. the smith & wesson was the perfect weapon for them. the colts -- unlike the colts have had an ejector that was supposed to pop the cartridge out. sometimes they would have both as smith & wesson and a couple of colts. at jesse's death he apparently had a cold and smith & wesson is part of his arsenal but a bunch of revolvers. [inaudible] >> i think they probably did have a shoulder holster type assembly and holsters on their belts as well. and the dead hotties of the robbers and one of the robbers they looked at what was in their pockets and built chadwell his pockets were stuffed with cartridges. they said his pockets were filled with cartridges and he was ready. he was prepared. >> we were in the pretty last week and they brought the bank there and got almost $60,000 then they dropped other banks. all that money come to did they spend it as fast as they got it? >> they spend it as fast as they got it. it went through their fingers like water. they spend it very quick read. jesse had hardly anything at his death. the family come to his wife and children were pretty much destitute. they had an auction and auctioned off a lot of furnishings in the house overlooking them. he was planning a robbery at his best to replenish some of those funds but you are right. it was a huge hall and jesse probably was involved in that but some of the other youngers and cole might even part of that. we don't know all the identities and in fact it's really difficult to know the makeup of the gang for each particular robbery until we get to that rocky cup robbery and 1876 when hobbs barry confesses he killed all eight men for the first time and there is solid -- but the gang would be different later as well. i want to thank the st. louis county library in thanks these these -- c-span and i had a great time here tonight. my next book is going to be on teddy teddy roosevelt and the rough riders. [applause] nomar out was for a while. [applause] more from gary pennsylvania. booktv visited the area with the help of our local cable partner timed warner cable. >> the the lagoon area was formed by a series of pines that were connected back in the late 1920s early 30s and was originally meant to be a state wide world's biggest hatchery. they connected the pines but they ran out of money before they could take it any further. the results today have been the fact that we still have a great natural fish hatchery that is semi-closed to the public because the only transportation back here or by electric powered boats or canoes. the public is sort of limited. consequently it is a fairly natural area with all kinds of animals and birds populating it all summer long. presque isle is french for almost an island. that's because during the recorded history of the park it was an island. it rode through the financial and became an island. at one point the opening was over a mile across and 20 feet deep. in the 1920s the state turned it into a state park. it was the second state park in the whole state of pennsylvania. valley forge was first and then this part. it wasn't called prescott state park at the time. they originally named at pennsylvania state park. one of the areas i like to talk about and you will see is where the. monument is. at one point it was called crystal bay. crystal point and the. monument was dedicated to commodore perry after his victory on lake erie. after the battle is where this bay became famous. the little bay produce many deaths and problems because of the severe winter we had and the fact that the typhoid fever was running rampant through and many people died. to get them off of the various ships after their deaths they would sew them into old sales, put their bodies in an ad rocks and so it up and take it over to the part we are going through called graveyard pond. the next place we are going to be visiting his waterworks park, a park given to the city by the commonwealth of pennsylvania to provide a method of bringing cleaner water to the city because of the typhoid epidemic. there is typhoid all over. it was rampant. part of that has to do with the way the ships were built. as to the sailors coming over from england and france and all over were used to saltwater and all the water they used was carried in big barrels in the ships because they couldn't drink the saltwater. when it hit the great lakes they found they could throw a bucket over and pull up fresh water and that was great. part of the problem developed with typhoid was when the sanitation of the ships -- everyone had a hole in the front of the bow they used to take care of their duties. that was fine because in the ocean in it would be cleaned and go over the side and wash the deck and at the great lakes, that was apparent but when they anchored the ships this continued but they also were throwing the buckets over the back of the boat to pull up the water. that is when. people the soldiers got typhoid because of the unsanitary conditions. this was happening in the cities. a lot of the cities had sewage treatment plants. they were taking a the water from the bay of the time and taking the water in for water only 100 yards apart so the typhoid was rampant. there were years where 12 of 1400 people died and 40% of the population were sick during that time. that is why this park decided to bring clean or into the city. to bring the water to the city they actually have had to cut the peninsula and have them put a 40-foot wide and 12-foot deep trench all the way across and the dredged the pond first and then they dredged the west pond next. it took about two years. one of the funny things that happened was they brought a truck load of piping and all of that in on the lake side of this a storm came up in the barge sank and all of the piping was lost and never recovered. they were told before this not to do that because the lake was too treacherous. of course no one listened and it was destroyed. the park today, the two ponds are there. they were used to settle out the dirt -- dirt out of the water and in the water was pumped. what happened over the years is the water settled out and distilled filled the 12 feet and all of a sudden the ponds were 8 feet deep. they have built a building on the sides and they put in a steam-powered pump where they pumped the water out of the pond's, first date he spawned and cleaned it out and then they decided to cement that pond. the bottom and sides were cemented and they refilled it. once the pond was cleaned out it was never cemented. about 1951 or 1952 they start -- stopped using it to filter the water. they would pump their water underneath into the city to the water plant where they use the chlorination filtration process so they didn't have to settle the water out any longer. ..
>> good morning, everyone, it's wednesday, october 16th. at least there is some good news for boston. >> for boston. >> with us on set, not washington. national affairs analyst john heilman is with us. hello, george. >> hi. >> add to that, we have donny deutsche, incorporated. donny deutsche. >> and in washington, white house correspondent for the associated press, julie pace and kelly o'donnell. >> so now we raise the bar. >> willie, in either circumstance, we would be talking about the historic effectiveness of the detroit tiger's pitching because their pitching has been extraordinary, verlander, again we seen this three games strikeout after strikeout, that man the best pitcher in baseball without a doubt, unbelievable. >> of course. >> one strike after another strikeout after another strikeout. yet the tigers couldn't hit and the red sox carrying about a .132 game average. >> i thought the red sox had one run on napoli's home run. that's all they needed. you can see it on verlander's face what do i have to do, exactly? i gave up one bad pitch and i lose. >> how would you like to be a team that basically gave up one hit in 15 innings and you split the series and then you have verlander go out and gave up one pitch and lost. >> i believe now this is the fourth game in six or seven verlander has given up one run an not won the game t. tigers do not score for verlander. >> incredible. and on the west coast. >> ladies, i want to point out the difference near we put up a five box 2009 men and women. we are a day away from the default and what are the guys talking about? >> i have nothing for you on baseball, sorry. >> here's the thing. there is a game i have been following, it's not baseball. >> exactly. >> the tweet about the baseball games. >> let's tweet about what's going on in washington. >> you know, it's going to end. >> i have known how this is going to end. we said it on the air how it's going to end. >> how is it going to end? >> how we said it will ends for the past several weeks, right? so some people in my party took a stupid pill. they came up with a horrible strategy. >> for like the 15th time. >> shut up. >> we all said they were going to lose, didn't sfwhe scott walker said it. everybody, we all said it. >> willie geist. >> willie geist, of course. was that the latest at-bat? said guess what, they're going to lose so what are they going to do before the government default? they're going to cave in and they're going to look horrible. sorry. i don't know how these baseball series will end, mika, i know how this will end, they will not default on the president of the united states, like we said. >> the panel is saying a potential downgrade of its credit rating because of the political brinksmanship and reduced financial ability of the united states. last night they rescrambled to end the shutdown and extend the treasury's borrowing limit. earlier in the day, majority leader harry reed and senator mitch mcconnell put it on hold. at the end of the day, speaker boehner was unable to deliver the republican votes necessary to pass the bill after deemed unacceptable by many conservatives. democrats, in particular, were out raged at the leadership in the house for setting back negotiations nearly 24 hours and putting all of walk under intense pressure to strike a last minute deal. >> we felt blindsided by the news from the house. but this isn't the first time. extremist republicans and the house republicans are attempting to torpedo the bipartisan progress, for a bill that can't pass the senate and won't pass the senate. i'm very disappointed with john boin baner who once adepend tried to preserve his role at the expense of the country. >> the problem that we got is that for speaker boehner, for example, him negotiating with me isn't necessarily good for the extreme faction in his caucus. it weakens him. so there have been extreme situations that we have agreement, he goes back and it turns out he can't control his caucus t. challenge here is can you deliver on agreements that are made? >> all right. i want to get to kelly o'connell and justly anne the funeral song, first, that, yeah, exactly. that's kay os. how do you know how it end? >> because, do we all remember september 15th, 2008? do we remember that date? do we remember watching the television when the dow jones was losing a thousand points and it kept losing and people started wondering if their entire retirement was going to collapse? how do i know this is going to happen? because i know at some point whether it's thursday or the following tuesday when the markets wake up and realize, there were a lot of people that took the crazy pill in washington. those markets will collapse. when they do, john bohner will panic like any responsible adult would do. he will run to the floor him they're going to end this crisis. >> they haven't seemed responsible. >> but because, because you know what, negotiation? steve ratner says every big negotiation they have done goes down to the last second. >> this is getting ridiculous. >> follow the money. i don't care what the foundation heritage says, at the end of the day, there is too much money at stake. everybody's net worth of 200930 and 45% going over a cliff in one day, it's not going to happen. >> let's be clear, though, those are two different things. there is a version of reality you just lay down which is we default, the markets crash, then republicans come to their sense. there is not a version of reality we react at the last minute the ratner scenario, tomorrow at the last hour. those would be two different outcomes. a huge market crash tuesday morning would be the worst outcome. >> you never get to the market crash. you get to actually everybody calling boehner and saying, you foe what, you guy, asia is shaky right now. you guys have like about 12 hours to get your act there. then they put a clean cr on the bill. it gets a majority of the votes. >> kelly o'donnell. >> and the crash is averted. >> they bet that responsible adults in the end will prevail. but let me give you the floor after telling this next story, bus it kind of crystallizes whether or not they are adults. house republicans who find themselves with their backs against the wall broke out in an impromptu hymn of "amazing grace.". >> i love that song, at many fun rals they play that song. wait, it's a funeral song, right? >> congressman byrd of texas noted how members of this marty were able to sing all three verses by memory saying, quote, isn't that impress 95. >> it is. i like the last verse the best. it's great on star trek when we have been there 10,000 years. >> democrat jerry conley of virginia saw it a little bit differently. after laughing out loud he asked reporters, quote, isn't that usually sung at funerals? i hope they understand there are derivations of those lyricles. it was written by a slave trader. he is remorseful for his past and takes responsibility for those actions and sees the savinglight of grey, even for a wretch like himself. i'm not saying my colleagues are wretches, but i hope what that indicates, yeah, yeah, yeah, you get the point. but generally. >> i love that song. >> what's going on? >> it's good to know we have a sound traing to our crisis. >> well, i think joe is actually on to something. i think we are now hitting the exhaustion phase of what has been a painful chapter. >> let me hit if exhaustion button. become. go ahead. >> so part of what sort of derailed things late yesterday is certainly the tea party conservatives were telling boehner they couldn't go along. not all for the same reason. there were parts of the bill that dealt with various things that aren't getting a whole lot of attention, weeks to around the edges related to the health care law and so forth. people had different opinions about those things, so they fell short. this really puts boehner in a position now where it is kind of the final hail mary moment. so i was there at the senate late last night where reed and mcconnell continue to work. their staff was working through the nit to get something ready to go. they're playing through all of the different tactical things they need to do. so let's assume they can come forward today with a deal, they pass it in the senate. it does go to binner. i think joe's theory and his insight about this is probably right. you go tote a point now where democrats will go with boehner and he'll lose some of his conservatives, but there will be enough to get it through. i think that's the best case scenario. could it deinvolve again? yes, but there is a calmness around boehner, he is playing every hand, giving those rebellious conservatives every chaens to get their piece through it has not worked. i think we can say to them, we have tried it all. this is a line we can't cross and i think he can make it happen today. >> that's a sad way to go. >> by the way, for the record, amazing grace i think is the greatest song of all time. >> read by john newton and the words are extraordinarily moving. >> wouldn't you say. >> they are. >> -- at the house republican scene jed kind of a michael moore's script of the west wing. >> symbolic. >> you wouldn't quite believe it. i want my caucus singing hymns, i like that. i just, though, don't want them sinking hymns usually sung at fun rals. it ends up the congressman steve southerland that led this and work at funerals. >> maybe it's the acceptance phase? >> you know what it could have been, i'm wondering what that one dark blot is they're speaking of. >> okay. so anyway. >> what now? >> play this out. i know you think worry going to -- i don't think it's happening. >> i think kelly's scenario and your scenario are the most shrikely scenarios. yesterday, again i'm not sitting on capitol hill an kelly is a much better capitol hill reporter than i'll ever be. yesterday it didn't seem like controlled chaos. it wasn't completely controlled and the behavior of house republican the 30 or 50 members who have driven to us this point so far has not been holy rational one would agree throughout this process. >> yesterday they said they will escort. please, stop making me tired. stop making me tired. >> i'm tired. >> are they going to score this, really? >> what i would love for them to go up. they're still talking like it's the beginning of september with their statement saying oh the obama care is going to hurt them. all the things that we conservatives know, yeah, obama care is going to hurt america, tell us something we don't know as conservatives. yet, you are saying allow america to go over the financial cliff? i mean, there are a lot of things i don't like, but, willie, even congress, mike lee, ted cruz, they moved on from this strategy like in a press conference three weeks ago and heritage, they got their heads stuck in the sand. >> some people moved on. there are some members of congress and senate who actually didn't move on, either. it's interesting, john mccain is quoted making the point that kelly makes about this exhaustion phase. in the "time's kwz he says republicans have to understand we lost this battle. i predicted white sox ago we would not be able to win because we were demanding something that's unachievable. that's john mccain. >> the editorial page was even more stinging, saying we warned you. >> so will and lindsey graham said bohner was a victim of failed strategy, adding republicans have gone too far and screwed up. peter king says the entire situation says this party is going nuts. >> the wall street editorial page i always said talking about the, you know, it's a bible. >> it's conservetism. >> paul should go rhino. >> wall street editorial page rhino. so, hey, julie, what will the house republicans who don't get what they want which is taking a big piece out of the affordable care act at the end of the day that boehner has to rely on some democratic votes to pass something through. what will they be able to say to their constituents and heritage foundation and others they got out of this deal if it does, in fact, go down the way we played this morning. >> it won't go down a whole lot t. best they will do is vote no against the measure on the floor. for some of them, they might say this is a reason you no ed to keep sending us being. you foed people in the house who can say no to the democratic led senate who can keep saying no to the president. from the white house perspective, there are some people watching this, relishing it. but this bolsters the president's position, with ib is i can't negotiate with john boehner because every time he comes to the table with a deal, whether from his own leadership or the white house, we don't foe if he can get the votes. it always seems to play out this way. he throws out one deal, can't get the vote. throws out another deal, can't get the vote. i think as kelly and joe are saying, we will probably see the senate put forward a deal mcconnell and reed have been working on a whiechl lit likely pass the senate and go to the house, i think john boehner will go to the floor with it and go at the time democratic votes. it's been so ugly here even by washington standards, that it's hard to predict the final outcome. >> let me do what i do the best, that is saying sayings that are the truth. but it's in both side. so let me start by let's talk about the republican, i'll offend certain republicans right now and say i got a call from a gop official high up in florida last night and said, do you see what happened in special elections? i said i don't really follow house ledges littive special elections in central florida. he said, well, the democrats won a republicancy. there are some local issue, but you know what this gop official who is really conservative, really republican said, this is just the beginning. we are getting hammered all across the state of florida by our big business owners. these guys in washington are killing us. worry feeling it now, not in '14, not in '16 t. brand is shattered since it all comes down toened practice branding, it is branding in 2008, barak barak they told him it was a bag of potato chims. it was all branding. the republican brand has been i believe so shattered by what's happened you can lock at all the numbers. how did they pull themselves up from 24%? >> there is only one thing that's been shattered more than the republican brand. that's the brand of congress a. study the other day said 40% should be voted out of office. the american people, almost half of congressmen they would vote out of office. obviously, more republicans. the american people are the ultimate check and balance and what will happen come 2014 the world will shift t. average american person doesn't exactly understand obama care or the sequester is. but they understand that right now the politicians in washington, particularly congress, particularly republicans are not acting in their best interest and they have a way of speaking up. >> you know what else they understand, too, that obama care from these stories they've seen on tv. they don't know a lot about it. the first thing they really know about it is, it doesn't work. like the computer systems. hey, manhattan guys and gals, let's not kid ourselves. that's what they're talking about over dinner tames i tables. it feeds into that washington doesn't work. >> the obum care, the american people have moved on from obama care. even the ones who are against it, 65% said it's okay. >> i'm not saying, i'm talking about washington's brand, if you don't think like at dockouts this weekend when they talk about what a mess it is in washington, they're not talking about the crazy republicans. they're also talking about like the fact that barak barobama th can't run a website. >> the silver lining to this is you have to bottom out before there is real change. >> how low do we have to go? >> coming into 2014 the american people are going to speak. i think the tea party and poem are not going to be afraid to be a priority any more. like you talked about yesterday, smart guys and women are going to stand up. this is going to be a seat change. >> right, right. i don't know where to start. >> you disagree? >> a couple things, i'll leave the bag of chips aside. i think they did a really good job the president. >> it's all a bag of chips. >> there is nothing wrong with a back of potato chips. >> it's marketing. >> as far as the obama care website not working. >> i said they marketed it like a can of cola? the way they marketed ronald reagan. jfk. >> the messaging and connecting with the people than wove seen in generations and, quite frankly, that is why we have health care reform, with i is no one else could do and we're arguing about whether or not it works, you know, no one knows actually down the rod certain questions about it. but this president promised it lastly about the website not working, you are an expert in political analysis. the bottom lean is republicans literally left this story that could have been huge and they could have completely capitalized on it. the fact that website has had problems, they've completely self imploded. i mean, the fact that the website isn't working is not as big a story as it would have been. >> they accepted there is no doubt about it. >> we can't even really get to it. >> the website to this moment as another famous conservative yesterday has been exploring this thing said the website is a disaster. it's a significant problem. it's not a political or liberal issue. >> it's an issue -- >> if it doesn't work, they are. yes. >> by the way, it is a basic function two years -- donny -- >> we may or may not. but it is the case they've had two years to get their i.t. situation together so that when they launched universal health care that people would be able to actually use the website. the fact that they can't speaks to a degree of confidence that is damming on the operating of a basic fundamental government program. if they had not stepped on themselves over the course of the last month, they could have made hey out of this, this is their 60 achieve him, the one thing you thought they would be able to do is get the website to work. >> you got to do at this time right way instead of taking the country hostage and looking like a bunch of clowns sinking at a funeral. >> like you said, though, whether in central pennsylvania where you were last woke with your family. >> yeah. >> where everybody was talking badliant obama care. >> those same people discussed it with the republicans who have done this. >> hey, mika, if you and donny would have understand this, we would be agreeing with you. it's both parties are loathed right now. they're seen as crazy or incompetent. >> they were loathing with republicans. i think the democrats are seen as ineffective. i think the word "loathing" and the emotion that comes with that, universally assigned -- >> they're all just saying they're all bums. that was my biggest point, willie geist, my biggest point, you in the middle america, are you further up in the west. >> i am. i don't live in the fancy part of town. >> you don't live on the fancy part of town. >> you know i find when you talk to people about what's been going on the last couple weeks, i don't even see the outrage anymore. like they're done. they're done with it. >> obviously, there are people rightly outraged. but the general consensus seems anecdotally, forget it. they don't do anything, they will never do anything. forget it. >> how long can have you these manufactured political crises that will resolve themself that, always resolve themselves at the end and not have people go, but i did last night. i'm not following. it's a baseball game. they know how this ends. i have seen it. they will do it again in three months. >> let me ask you. we have to go. kelly, what's on tap for today as far as we know? >> well, it will be a tense day. we have to see this play out. the numbness willie was describeing from the public does have an impact. it might also create an opportunity where some of the deal makers in congress can finally put an end game together. there isn't any time for the volleying today anymore. we got today to deal with. i think the leaders do respect this dead loin as a real dead loin set by treasury. i think it will be an eventful day. i will begin this day optimistic and say they get it done. >> can we begin with a song? >> i would start with holy, holy, holy. >> kelly said danny boy. >> you are a great southern baptist, kelly. >> well, what we're looking a in the terms of the white house today. >> two things i think people will be watching, the white house will be watching, one is the markets. we've seen some shakiness in the markets in the past day or so. but is today the day the markets plummet and say i don't know if washington has its act together t. second thing is from treasury, if we get closer to this dead loin, treasury rolling out prioritization and seeing what bills they will pay first and what bills may have to fall by the wayside. >> i think we have seen a difference between southern baptist and irish catholic. >> i think the song is being unatrades. >> i'm from the holy, holy, holy. >> that one since vacation bible school. we get the irish catholic, talk about a drink song. let's sing "danny boy." oh, danny boy. >> let's mote tomorrow and see what the appropriate song is. kelly o'donnell, julie pace, thank you very much for putting up with us this morning. coming up on "morning joe," we will talk to senator susan collins about her effort to reach a debt deal, michael axelrod and bret murphy will be joining us and oscar winner robert red ford will be here to talk about his latest role, which has very little dialogue but plenty of oscar buzz. next, mike allen joins us about the political playbook. >> this is big. >> he's fantastic and bill kierans who is with us now. >> thank you. >> i'm going to the restroom a couple blocks, take a camera there. >> ew. >> all right. appreciate it. >> it's like 6:25 in the morning, you think about that? >> tj. what is he doing? >> i love how it's tj's fault. >> my bad. >> show gary. >> willie, stop that. >> he's making me eat what's in the bowl. >> good morning, everyone, we are watching rhine rain in the forecast, overall, not a bad morning out there for the middle of october. can you believe it's the middle of october already? it's snowing in colorado this morning. as far as the airports go today, i don't see a lot of big issues, if you are doing the airport, san antonio, memphis, cleveland, the rain is really the steadiest from texas to little rock. this morning getting light rain out of that. i have been to kentucky, up through ohio, cleveland, syracuse, buffalo, have that umbrella with you. enjoy the warmth of the eastern seaboard. this has been a warm october. all indications are next week at this time some of the coldest air of the season will come down from canada from the great lakes first to the ohio valley then the east coast. we have been enjoying a warm october to this point. so enjoy it. new york city, one or two more warm days for you. you are watching "morning joe" on this wednesday. the american dream is of a better future, a confident retirement. those dreams, there's just no way we're going to let them die. ♪ like they helped millions of others. by listening. planning. working one on one. that's what ameriprise financial does. that's what they can do with you. that's how ameriprise puts more within reach. ♪ . >> all right. 30 past the hour. time now to take a look at the morning papers. l.a. times, a suspect is under arrest after two consecutive days of dry ice bomb explosions at los angeles international airport. police say an employee of an airport contractor took dry ice from a plane and put it in plastic bottles around the airport. no one was hurt in two explosions. >> why? >> he was charged with explosive of a device near an aircraft. his bail is set at one million -- >> you and i are accuse of, it was the '70s. >> the red brigade. >> san diego reunion review. >> willie is taking this. >>ly do this one. san diego union trib bound disgraced former mayor bob filfer. he was forced out of his office, he was charged with felony, false imprisonment, battery. he will be banned from seeking public office and confined to his home for three months and will be forced to seek therapy. orlando sent fell, two florida girls ages 12 and 19 e 14 are facing felony stalking charges, accused of bullying their classmate, a 12-year-old to the point where she eventually committed suicide. officials say the bullying was done in person and online. the turning point in the case came saturday when one of the girls was accused of writing on facebook this, yes, i know i bullied rebecca and she killed herself but idgaf. >> i don't give a thing. >> come on. this is real. this is a real -- >> it ha himself so much. bullying online happens so much. >> imagine being the mother or the father. >> they're looking at charges not just against the girls but the parents for not controlling it. i think it's going to be one of the bigger issues, especially with devices of technology and how you monitor that and control it. i mean, it's such a challenge for parents. >> do you know your kids' passwords? >> do you read it? it was a real issue in our house, i would read. the kids get really, really upset. but the bottom line is you own those devices. you own those devices, are you parents. are you responsible for them. >> you have to let them know, you have to let them know, you are not only going read that. i mean, you are going to monitor them in anyway. >> there is really no other option. >> and that also gives you the power if your son or daughter is being bullied online, to call the parent and say, hey, listen, i'm going to tell you what i saw online and keep your daughter, keep your son out of my child's way or you are going to, we're going to talk about this at school. >> it's easier said than done. i know. it's a terrible story. the new york post last week in new york city, there were no murders, zero murders in any of the five boroughs. it's the first time this has happened since last january. so far in 2013, there have been 256 murders, that's down 26% from the same period last year. all right. the san francisco chron cam the bid of an 18-foot long serpent sea creture was discovered off the coast of catalina island in southern california. look at that. >> it gets crazier. it's the sasquatch of the sea. >> scientists discovered this 300 pound fish. >> do you know how big those can get? >> yeah. >> that was 15 fee. up to 50 feet. >> don't tell us you caught one. >> they swim at depth of more than 3 -- >> i didn't catch one. ways in scotland and i rode one, i lassoed one. >> as one does. >> and rode one. >> nobody laugh at this next story, not this. >> lock at that fish. that's 15 feet. they go up to 50 feet. >> catalina island is where i went to boy scout camp, we were excited to see abalone. >> this is important. >> new research shows oreo cookies. >> i love them. >> double stuffed ones. >> now listen to this. >> orea cookies may be just as addictive as cocaine. >> so you have done boerkts john heilman, they're not as addictive, are they? >> no. >> but the stuff inside is very good. >> yes. >> i ate a lot. >> can you free base that. >> can you? >> is that what happened to ricky nelson in the airplane? >> absolutely incredible a. rush like you wouldn't believe. >> a study of lab rats by students at connecticut college, the oreos triggered more neurons in the brain's pleasure center than cocaine. this kind of study has been done before with other types of food, salt, sugar or fat in the food causes the same reaction, the sort of pleasure center of the brain lights up like cocaine lights it up. guys. serious. >> one of them helps you gain weight. one helps you lose weight. >> which is why you do both, it's perfect zblk if you pick up too much weight, i read the book. >> do both. >> put that in the book. >> that's only if you hit your target weight. >> that's news now when you and i go to vegas, we save ourselves a lot of time and effort, just get a box of oreos. >> off the plane, straight to the cafeteria, double stuffs, pack 'em up. >> go up to the suite, lock your door. >> but, okay. >> you know what, it's doisy. >> all right. we have the great mike allen here. >> i don't know what you are talking about. >> it's an honor and a privilege. >> mike allen. look at the playbook. there was a big mayoral debate last night here in new york city. the federal government shut down, becoming a heated local issue. in the debate last night democrat bill deblasio up 50 points tried to link joe lhota to the national republicans and the tea party. >> it's interesting he went to the tea party on staten island and appealed to them to support them, told the tea party members in staten island there's their values are close to his. i know we need a change, we don't need tea party extremism. the idea that the tea party is holding up obama care and the debt situation, mr. lhota has to be honest with us. it's not honest to say you didn't, where i don't agree with the national republican party is long and hard. >> i ham pro choice that,ry not. i am pro gay rights as well as marriage equality. they are number i have been outspoken about these issues over and over again. i went and i talked to the tea party. when i went, there was things i agreed with them on and things i disagreed with them. it's unbecoming bill. >> last night there was a new jersey gubernatorial debate, you heard these themes as well, republicans sort of distancing themselves from walk republicans. >> good luck. this is your conversation earlier about the branding. like this is a free club for any democrat to hit any republican whether they agree with the tea party or had anything to do with the shutdown last night. bill deblasio sealed the deal. he pointed out way ahead. there is only one other dewitt and he was very effective here and joe lhota did nothing to change the debate. he can complain all he wants saying he doesn't have anything to do with it. we are seeing the same thing in 52. . the republican the attorney general cuccinelli, he took ads saying the government should stay openedment all the ads are associateing him. >> can the timing for cuccinelli come any worse tan right now? he already had problems with bob mcdonald, about a book he wrote talking about medicare, social security. you know as you win the primary and try to move back to the middle in virginia, which virginia demands of its governors, suddenly washington blowing up. i mean, it's horrible timing for ken cuccinelli. >> right. having an r after your name at the same time that virginia which we had thought is a purpose him state is looking very much like a blue state right now. >> wow. on the other hand for some governors this is a great time. if you over the last several months and years made a point to say i'm not a washington republican, keep running in that direction right now. >> yeah, chris christie in the '70s, approval rating, it's crazy. catalina island. i never been to catalina island. i hear it's great. you went there as a boy scout. >> you went there on a seaplane. >> okay. >> and oreos also in this segment. >> mika told you not to laugh. you disobey. >> we were talking about something else, mike allen, talking about the playbook. >> talk about vegas. >> still ahead, we will ask congressman sean duffy how they are willing to go in their standoff with president obama. matt holliday gave the cardinals an early lead. could they come back and save themselves? i can't wait to see next. before they sat down, one more time, just for themselves. before the last grandchild. before the first grandchild. smile. before katie, debbie, kevin and brad... there was a connection that started it all and made the future the wonderful thing it turned out to be... at bank of america, we know we're not the center of your life, but we'll do our best to help you connect to what is. humans. even when we cross our t's and dot our i's, we still run into problems. namely, other humans. which is why at liberty mutual insurance, auto policies come with new car replacement and accident forgiveness if you qualify. see what else comes standard at libertymutual.com. liberty mutual insurance. responsibility. what's your policy? ♪ every now and then i get a little bit tired ♪ ♪ of craving something that i can't have ♪ ♪ turn around barbara ♪ i finally found the right snack ♪ ♪ >> all right, let's talk some playoff baseball. game four of the nlcs, dodgers looking to even their series, two gaems apiece playing at home. cards up is-0, matt holliday stepped to the plate. >> here's holiday. >> that ball is driven to left and it is long gone. >> wow. a bomb. >> holiday gets his first hit in the series and it is a big one. he says that's about as far as i can hit a ball. >> the two run home run gives them the load. they cut it to one, pitch hitter shane robinson, shane robinson, a little insurance for the cards. a short shot over, sneaks over the left field wall. cards take a 4-2 load. and that is your final score. cardinals up 3-1. >> zach grinke plays against kershaw in the next game. >> you got to see, oh, there's tom cruz. it's so annoying. >> everybody gets there late. show up. >>io exhibit to lock at tom. >> what do you have against tom cruise? >> it's great. you are a movie star. i want to focus. i'm a purist. he's a great actor. >> he came back down. he looks so young. >> he takes care of himself. "top gun." >> "risky business." oh, come on. >> "cocktail." >> what are you brick up "cocktail" for? >> why don't you talk about the nascar film with robert duval. it was a great movie. >> come on, he has a great imb page. >> let's go to the red sox. game three, sox and tigers, john lackey. >> oh, man. >> a pitcher's dual. >> scoreless in the 7th. verlander pitching to mike napoli. >> high drive ball to left center. back at the wall. the red sox have taken lead. napoli -- >> mike napoli. >> that is the only run of the game. sox up 1-0. >> napoli's first major league at-bat, home run to justin verlander. >> to that same spot. >> red sox take the lead 2-1 in the series. game four is tonight in detroit. 4:00 eastern this afternoon. by the way, that series is going to be, i don't know how it's going to end, that one owe glow have the numbers been strong? these are top teams. have you read? >> i haven't seen. i do hear the "top gun" theme in my ear right now. >> danger zone, baby. >> old time rock nr roll might have been a little over the top. >> getting kelly mcginnis polls right now. >> up next. >> a little known fact his commanding officer, carl bernstein. >> i can't believe what i have to do. i have two knuckleheads. >> must read opinion pages. [ male announcer ] legalzoom has helped start over 1 million businesses. if you have a business idea, we have a personalized legal solution that's right for you. with easy step-by-step guidance, we're here to help you turn your dream into a reality. start your business today with legalzoom. we're here to help you turn your dream into a reality. make my mark i wawith pride.ork. create moments of value. build character through quality. and earn the right to be called a classic. the lands' end no iron dress shirt. starting at 49 dollars. as your life changes, fidelity is there for your personal economy, helping you readjust along the way, refocus as careers change and kids head off to college, and revisit your investments as retirement gets closer. wherever you are today, fidelity's guidance can help you fine-tune your personal economy. start today with a free one-on-one review of your retirement plan. ♪ (announcer) answer the call of the grill with new friskies grillers, full of meaty tenders and crunchy bites. . >> no, you want to take my breath away. it reminds donny of that same, what was it the same in "top gun"? . >> he shows up for his first day and goes, can i take a shower first? >> you have never done that, willie and i were saying. >> your pro volleyball game, you have been playing in your jeans all day. i need a shower. >> they ask you to take a shower. >> best selling author and award winning journalist. >> thank god you are here. it's kind of a whacky day. i think people were getting a little punchy. either that or we will be weeping at the state of o'fairs in washington. >> the load editorial waxed the republicans, saying, basically, we told the guys this was coming. now the best thing you can do is surrender. >> any other way to see this? >> look, the republican party today has become a rampant organization from the top down the leadership is cancerous, this is a water shed moment in american history and unless people, mccain and others throw out the leadership that appeased the tale that is wagging the republican dog, the tea party is not just a movement. it has been cowardly embraced by eric cantor by boehner who has gone along with this craziness and allowed himself to be the speaker of this party and what it stand for. you have to go back to the party the democrat ec party of segregation to find this kind of scorched earth politics putting the national interests nowhere and putting ideology and ideology above all else. this is a terrible moment in our history. the full faith and credit of the united states, our reputation abroad, our stability, oour national security has been in danger by mcconnell, by cantor, who have embraced and cowardly appeased these forces who are know nothings. >> so now let's get the republican response. >> go ahead. what is the republican? >> the republican process is this. >> no, what is it? >> there are plenty of people like jeb bush, like john mccain, throw these people out. >> here's the republican response. >> go ahead. >> there are two parties in america. i mean, in the republican, actually three parties the democratic party, there's the republican party in washington and then there's the republican party outside of washington. the republican party outside of washington as governors with really high approval ratings. they control 60% of the governor's mansions, they control majority of the senate seats across american legislatures. they control the majority of the house the lower chambers and they have done very well. my fear is that the area where we are really strong, we, my republican party, is now being affected by the party in washington, d.c. that is unfortunately, you got a 24% approval rating. >> this is your leadership, though, this is not the rank and file. >> my leadership. the people that i look for, for leadership of the republican party are chris christie, scott walker. >> let them get up and say throw eric cantor out. >> we will pick this up at the top of the hour. carl, when we come back, we will pick it up. you will tell us how you really feel. we will be back with much more "morning joe." [ music playing ] (vo) you are a business pro. maestro of project management. baron of the build-out. you need a permit... to be this awesome. and you...rent from national. because only national lets you choose any car in the aisle... and go. you can even take a full-size or above, and still pay the mid-size price. (aaron) purrrfect. (vo) meee-ow, business pro. meee-ow. go national. go like a pro. [ babies crying ] surprise -- your house was built on an ancient burial ground. [ ghosts moaning ] surprise -- your car needs a new transmission. [ coyote howls ] how about no more surprises? now you can get all the online trading tools you need without any surprise fees. ♪ it's not rocket science. it's just common sense. from td ameritrade. >> "the morning joe" is back a in a moment. [ male announcer ] welcome back all the sweet things your family loves with 0-calorie monk fruit in the raw. ♪ welcome back [ male announcer ] it's made with the natural, vine-ripened sweetness of fruit, so you can serve up deliciously sweet treats without all the sugar. so let no drink go unsweetened. no spatula un-licked. and no last bit un-sipped. you don't have to throw a party, but you'll probably feel like celebrating. raw natural sweetness, raw natural success. you may be muddling through allergies. try zyrtec-d®. powerful relief of nasal congestion and other allergy symptoms -- all in one pill. zyrtec-d®. at the pharmacy counter. and other allergy symptoms -- all in one pill. (knochello? hey, i notice your car is not in the driveway. yeah. it's in the shop. it's going to cost me an arm and a leg. that's hilarious. sorry. you shoulda taken it to midas. get some of that midas touch. they tell you what stuff needs fixing, and what stuff can wait. next time i'm going to midas. high-five! arg! i did not see that coming. trust the midas touch. for brakes, tires, oil, everything. (whistling) not double-talk. if you have the nerve to believe that in a puzzling financial world, clarity is king. [ man ] if you believe nothing beats a sit-down for knowing where you stand. [ male announcer ] join the nearly 7 million investors who think like you do: face time and think time make a difference. join us. [ male announcer ] for 90 years, it's how edward jones has made sense of investing. ♪ amazing grace ♪ how sweet the sound ♪ that saved a wretch like me ♪ i once was lost ♪ but now i'm found ♪ >> bernstein is still with zblus judy collins. >> judy is great. >> it micks you think. >> first we think of -- >> who died? >> the word wretch. >> actually, what a great voice judy colins had. that's on my iphone. >> that's a song for dead people. >> you don't know. it's a song for those of us who died and were born into a new life. >> it's about forgiveness, man. but, you know what, rapid time. >> yeah. >> shooting out in space. that was one of the great bagpipes come in. >> what are they thinking? >> god! >> joining us from capitol hill, we have the ranking member of the house for sight and government reform, elijah couple mince, democrat from maryland. >> good morning, elijah. >> so, obviously the back story oto that, mika the amazing grace back story. >> it's awful. >> what do you mean it's awful? >> well, it's kind of symbolic at this point because it feels like there is no end in sight except for a last minute scurry to the finish line. they broke out in an impromptu hymn of amazing grace during a morning meeting. congressman from texas noted members were able sing all three verses by memory saying, quote, isn't that impress sniff. >> that is impressive. >> are you kidding, they really did that? >> what's wrong with that? >> i thought it was a joke. >> you didn't get the whole joke. >> i thought it was just an overview. >> it's a matter of being religious out there. >> you got to watch the 6:00 a.m. hour. >> conley of virginia saw it differently, after laughing out loud, he asked reporters, quote, isn't that actually sung at funerals? it turns out the congressman that led the republicans in sinking "amazing grace," worked in a funeral home. >> let's move onto the news. willie, i mean, do they do that in congress? a lot of times they move over on the big financial, goldman sachs, they do that? when they're not going into a tough negotiation with the chinese? don't they break out? >> sinking to a different guy, i believe. >> oh. the golden calf. >> on wall street. >> i think as symbolism goes, having a mortician lead you in song as we come up to the precipice is not the best. >> i don't know. i think maybe one of his family members. still, nonetheless. >> joe in all serious inside, this is terrible. it's terrible. >> there is a degree of cluelessness here as far as people, i said this a couple of weeks ago, when you had the -- again, you look at the "wall street journal" editorial page here, you know, this is what conservatives read in the morning, economic conservatives that read this and, you know, the journal of the day said the beltway, a bunch of mellow drama rolls on, it's predictable and dreary and bake amy say republicans now, they didn't listen to us. the "wall street journal" is saying that. i'm saying that, chris christie is saying that, scott walker is saying. one and all. >> but the thing is, it ends up the rhinos are the people who are calling everybody else the rhinos, because these are, you know, i you got the "wall street journal," scott walker, bedrock conservatives warning them, don't put your hand on this stuff. if you touch the stove, you get burned. it's been burned. here's the thing, some of them want to press down harder. and it's the entire party. >> that's the point. >> that right now is getting hurt and i think. >> it's much more than. i think there is a degree of just cluelessness. it's not recklessness. it's clowlessness. >> they think. >> hold on, carl. >> they think that they are the first conservatives to ever get elected and go to washington, d.c. and i must admit, i thought that for about a year. and then i got a left hook by political reality as did tom komer, steve largent, matt salmon, and some of the most conservative guys i ever met in my life. you physical out, you don't want to run out. you know what happens, they shoot you. in the end, you got to figure out a smarter what i to win. >> carl, then elijah. >> cluelessness and tactics. this is an ethical question. >> no, carl, i sat here and listen to you with your moral lecturing last time. no, this is a battle over tacking thes. >> no. >> listen, nobody thinks that obama care is worse for america's long-term health and safety than do i. nobody in congress. i seriously believe that in the end this loads us to a single payer nationalized health care system which you like and progressives like. i think it's disastrous. >> i disagree of the tactics of how we get there. i think we have to be smarter. it's not a moral issue. it's just an issue, let's not have a debate over whether the conservative party or the moderate party. let stop being the stupid party. >> the moral issue is not obama care t. moshl issue is allowing the united states, our very fabric of our being, our governmental system, our finances to be absolutely obliterated. >> let's see if that happens. >> why? we have been affected terribly by this event. this is a water shed. >> hold on a second. i didn't do the stockmarket. >> this isn't the stockmarket. >> willie and guy to the smashing. if i'm not mistaken the dollar is still, be i the way, 15,000 carl and you're acting like locusts have descended from the heavens the markets will crash, more americans will be hurt than have already been hurt if this goes on for a week or two or three. but we're not there yet. >> this is, lock, this is a continuum that has been going on for years with this president. let's go back to george bush's election. >> let's not. because we really don't have time. >> well, let's see how the democrats took george bush's election and the supreme court election and recognized his legitimacy as president. let's look what happened with the nine leaders of the marty e party on inauguration day said we are going to cut this guy's legs off. how did this happen? >> hey, charm, democrats called him a nazi for eight years. >> idiot democrats. >> and guess what, they're idiot democrats, idiot republicans. if i had a dollar for every time i heard a democrat say that george bush shredded the constitution for doing the same exact thing that barak obama continues to, do well, i would have as much money as willie gooichlts let's go to elijah cumming. willie, elijah is here. say good morning. >> you are the moderator. >> actually, carl, i am the moderator. >> congressman sounds like he wants in. go ahead, congressman. >> let's go back to the song "amazing grace." it says i once was lost, i was blind, now i can see the song i have been seeing all my life. i can tell you that we have, sadly, it pains me to say this, sadly a republican party at war with itself and it basically has suspended government, it's suspended our democracy. it's suspended almost any kind of oefrd. they don't know what they want. the sad part about all of this is the american people suffer and you know i hear people say, well, you know, it's not going to be as bad as you think. well, you wait tore those social security checks and disability checks, those 58 million checks stop going into the bank and the people who have. >> elijah, do you think we could get there? >> i don't know. hopefully today we will get something from the senate that we can live with, then the question becomes, joe, what happens when it hits the house? will baron stand up? i think boehner's got to say, lock, i'm going to do what's best for the countryen. not for the tea party. not for the republicans, what is best for the country. this is my watch. i will join with democrats to push through a piece of legislation that keeps the government opened and pays our debts. that's basically what peep want us to do. when i go home to my drirkts people are saying, cumming, you mean you can't keep the government opened and pay the debts that you owe? come on, we're better than that. >> congressman, you have known speaker boehner in a long time? do you know in your heart of hearts what you know about him, in that 11th hour, that hour is approaching, he will allow the united states of america to reach the debt limit and perhaps go in default? >> i think i know him fairly well. i think the john boehner i know would not allow that to happen. i got to tell you, when have you the heritage foundation the heritage action to say they are going to scuttle the legislation he tried to put on the floor last night. within 20 minutes, 20 minutes after the heritage foundation says worry not going along with this. they paul bill, i don't know who i'm billing with. i think it's very sad. >> elijah, very god to see you. i hope things work out very well. so they call you couplings back in your district? they don't call you congressman couplings? >> they call me cumming, e, eli. >> i can't tell you what they used to call me in my district when dealing with congress, man. >> joe, i don't think you would have allowed this to happen. >> of course not. i voted against raising the debt ceiling. there were 400 people on the other side of it t. thing is when people are hurt hurting, the way they're hurting, you have a weak economy. then you start talking about messing around with the united states of america's reputation across the globe and our standing in the world, i believe we are a special country. i really do. up know you do, too. >> oh, definitely. >> i believe we're the greatest country on the planet. i just do. it makes a lot of people angry. i believe in american exceptionalism. this hurts us across the global. more importantly, it could hurt working class americans. they'll foley the rip him effect of this before any of us around this table do. that's the real concern. >> one preacher in my district said to me, elijah, it seems like the congress is becoming the enemy of our own destiny, our nation's destiny. >> that at sad commentary. >> thank you, elijah. mika, we have been saying that for some time that america has so much going for it, you hear people talk badly about the country. but you lock at the energy revolution, you lock at the technology revolution, you look at all the things that start here, it seems the greatest obstacle in our way is washington, d.c.. >> that's all true about the things going on. be you this is a very embarrassing time. it really is. you know, i don't think you can downplay the effects of this. joining us live from capitol hill, republican senator susan collins. senator collins, it's god to have you on board, what's the hope the best hope we have today in the countdown? >> i think the best hope is a group vote, 14 senators who have been working hard over the past two weeks to forge a compromise. there are seven republicans, seven democrats and we have essentially reached an agreement on a plan that would reopen government, avert the default, provide the income verification for the obama care exchanges, to lay the medical device tax for a couple of years, but pay for it and perhaps most important direct the budget countries to come up with a long-term fiscal plan to deal with our unsustainable $17 trillion debt. i think that's a good, fair, balanced plan. >> what about the house? will it pass the house? >> i don't know and, of course, we've given this plan to our leaders and i know that they're negotiating. so it's possible they're going to come up with some version of the plan, but if i were the leaders, i would take a hard look at what 14 senators had been able come up with a possible template for us to go forward and solve this impasse once and for all. >> all right, john heilman. >> senator collins, how frustrating has it been for you? it's great have you come to a compromise, i think it's fair to say the senate could come up with a compromise, the question has always been the house, how frustrating is it for you to recognized for all the senate's good work, the fate of your compromise lies in the hands of john boehner and the right flank of the house republican caucus? >> i don't envy john boehner, i think he has an extraordinarily difficult task. i have never served in the house. i wouldn't presume to tell him how he should proceed. i will tell you this, on october 5th, on that saturday when i was in my office trying to put together the outline of a plan, i became so frustrated listening to the dewitt on the senate floor because it was extremely partisan and neither side was offering a way out. and what the 14 of us have tried to do is to offer an end to this impasse, to offer a path forward for both the house and the senate where each side can point to specific provisions that they like. >> senator susan collins, thank you so much for being on this show this morning. good luck. >> thank you, senator. >> thank you. >> all right, so, carl, we need to explain to everybody, we're really good friends, we like each other a lot. >> you said the most eloquent thing about what this means. you said it. no, you said it. cummings said it. you said it exactly right. this is about people hurting and that's what these people in washington and these republicans led by eric cantor appeased by boehner and by mcconnell until recently have allowed to happen. you could not have been morel consequent. >> well, thank you, carl. carl sends a message, you know. >> it's amazing grace. >> the crap around here. i love carl, i love having you on. it's always fascinating. there is a lot of people watching today. >> it's like a kum baya moment. >> people are watching thinking this was a great segment. i am bitterly sorry about one thing, can you say mccarthy. >> a scorched earth. >> gone mccarthy scorched earth. >> scorched earth democratic party is now the example of segregation. >> all right. carl, it's always great to have you here. >> thank you so much. coming up, more us. . >> how the bhes in washington impacts the upcoming mid-terms and beyond political strategist david axelrod and mike murphy break down the balance of power. >> murphy is mad and he's pissed off. [ music playing ] [ male announcer ] this is karen and jeremiah. they don't know it yet, but they're gonna fall in love, get married, have a couple of kids, [ children laughing ] move to the country, and live a long, happy life together where they almost never fight about money. [ dog barks ] because right after they get married, they'll find some financial folks who will talk to them about preparing early for retirement and be able to focus on other things, like each other, which isn't rocket science. it's just common sense. from td ameritrade. >> the problem we got is speaker boehner, for example, him negotiating with me isn't necessarily good for the extreme faction and his caucus. it weakens him. so there have been repeated situations where we have agreements. he goes back and it turns out he can't control his caucus. so the challenge here is, can you deliver on agreements that are made? >> beautiful scene in washington. i suppose tj could have taken that shot when he had done amazing grace. you know, come on, he mixes up images a lot. >> he gets part right. can't get the whole thing together. >> i was having my big lumberjack breakfast. he got that. with us now, we got at the table the editor and chief of news and publisher of the new york daily news maury zuckerman, the former director of the university of chicago institute of politic, msnbc contributor, now the pr consultant johnny football, david axelrod, i am guessing that is why he is at the station. >> we have the boston political calmness "time" magazine mike murphy. both david and mike wrote pieces about the survey of the new american center on msnbc news.com. >> mike murphy, i take it you agree with the "wall street journal" editorial page, myself and other republicans who have been warning this faction for some time that this strategy leads to disaster. where does the republican party sit today? >> well, you know, when things are so bad that you open the meeting by calling in the member who was an undertaker to sing "amazing grace." >> oh, lord. >> i don't want to sound like jeff foxworthy in an old act, be you you have problems, that said, with le have a restart after this train wreck, hopefully, we will not go off the fiscal cliff, the stupidest possible thing to do. we will have a discussion. i want to buy a free vacation to little big horn for senator cruz, give him time to regather and think and march forward and move back into the winning business, which i think we can do. >> david axelrod, where do we stand right now in washington? it seems like the president and the congress may be moving towards a deal. do you think it happens? >> you know, i think it does at the end of the day and one of the things that i'm concerned about is if it does happen, then we don't have another round of recriminations. >> that makes it harder to get something done in the interim. i mean, this is going to be an interim agreement. i hope that people don't go and start licking their wounds and saying, well, we're going to get our pound of flesh in the next round, then worry right back where we were. i trust that won't happen. one thing, joe, i want to say is, this survey mike and i wrote about. one thing it suggests is there is this broad middle and the value that runs through this middle is responsibility. they want responsibility and i think they're looking at what's going on in washington and they're profoundly angry about it. because this is not an exhibition of responsibility. >> rightfully so. >> there is a political imperative for goex folks to get something done. >> when you look at the numbers that came up from the washington post, abc news poll this week, you look at the nbc news "wall street journal" poll, approval ratings are collapsing. mainly the republican party. this isn't a bargain for the president. either it's tough out there. what message are we sending to the world? what are they saying about us? >> it remind me of a guy that jumps off the 40th floor bigd and as he goes by the 12th floor, he says, don't worry, nothing is happening yet. this is a potential catastrophe. forget about the world. this is all a symptom of huge deficits and huge debts in the country. we have not found the political leadership in the executive branch or the congress to deal with it. it's absolutely devastating for the united states, not only politically but economically. >> can i just ask, one of the smartest business guys, will you explain the 60 second, if which some chance, i ae grow with joe, we did go over the cliff, specifically, what happens tomorrow to people's iras? what happens to this economy? >> nothing tomorrow. >> anybody that has a financial instrument, whether it's debt, stocks or assets will see a major erosion of value. i'm not going to say it's permanent, it will be a shock to the system. >> 20%? 30%? >> nobody knows. it's unprecedented and unpredictable. what we will have, this is a permanent thing a loss of confidence in the american system and leadership. not just politically but economically and financially. the world financial system does not function without the american leadership. >> mike murphy, you have been breaking things down, following you on twitter, blow by blow, go back and.com knows as the republican and greater political an liftd you are, how we got to this point, in other words, how did someone like senator ted cruz or the minority of the republican caucus the tea party wing of the caucus seize control of this moment and take the party by the throat, why wasn't john boehner or mitch mcconamy or some other senior leader able to step in and say, hey, guys, that's not how we do things here, step off. >> we have a faction that wanted this fight. they wanted this tactic. our problem sometimes in the republican party is we conservatives have this disease where we look at every election like a republican primary. we only have general election voerts. we were on the cusp. the president was in real political trouble t. obama rollout was looming. we found out it was bad. we were a 84 away from the election to litigate obama care and take it to the bat lol box. people got impatient, particularly in the house. hey, we got out the bravehart dvds, get excited, a lot of us, i know joe is one of them. i sure was said tactically. this will play right into the democratic hands, it did. now we have to extricate ourselves for this i am bullish about the 2014 elections. we have huge brand problems which could make us competitive in 2016, which is the big election we have to win from my point of view for the sake of the country. >> joe, who is this on? we talk about failure on the democratic side. we say it's on the president, he's the president. but this is happening on the republican side. we all agree on that, who is this on? >> let's see how the story end. the famous quote by the british prime minister, a week is a lifetime in politics, let's see how this end. if the republicans were smart, this faction of the republican party would have stopped this several weeks ago an gotten out of the way and allowed all of the problems with the health care plan to be the lead headlines. >> without question, in fact, the republicans had a lot of good things going for them, they have sort of lost their credibility in terms of running the government based on the kind of behavior. you do not take there. is an old lines, right? never take the slightest chance at a catastrophic outcome. this is what they're now looking at. they took that, it was a ridiculous gamble. >> so david axelrod what are the options on the part of the white house at this point? >> well, lock, i think we're down to the short straws here. i think what's going to have to happen is that the senate is going to send their bill and the house is going to have to pass it and, you know, the question is what happens internally in the republican caucus? after that i'll tell you, though, i was listening to mort talk about tim pact of this. the most frightening moment yesterday was congressman yoho from joe's state, when he said in an intervow that he thought that all this talk about catastrophe, if we go over the cliff was media hype. and if that kind of thinking prevails, then worry going to have really big problems. in terms of 2016 as mike mentioned, though, the real question for the republican party is i think structurally they're set up okay for 2014. we'll see how this impacts it. in 2016 the question is whether the yohos of the world control the nominating process. if they, do you won't win a national election. >> mike murphy, what i heard from the biggest fund raisers in republican politics over the last three or four days, they say, you know what, i have given money, i think and i'll just tell you what they're saying to me privately. i think barak obama is terrible for this economy. i think he supports reg lakes too much. i think he, his default is raising taxes too much. i can't believe what i'm about to say. but i can't give my money to a party that's willing to play russian roulette with our economy. and i'm talking the biggest contributors in the republican party are now saying i can't continue to support this party if they're going to take this risk with my business and my economy. >> right. i'm hearing the same thing. i lock at 2016. i see a party, a republican party that's going to be in drives for reasons like. that we have a path forward. if you look at this data, this is a bunch of voters, we can win if 2016. if we go to a larger percent annual. simultaneously, i believe the democrats are headed for the dogma on the right of the republican party is getting all the press, we seem to have a knack for it. if you look at the democratic party, it is aproeveng lefter and lefter. bill deblasio would say, too much. he's a good guy in 2016, i think you will see the wings of both parties driving politics that will increasingly alienate these new voters in the american survey. who are the key to winning the presidency. >> i like talking with that middle. but. >> i just want to say one thing. when two guys are fighting on the edge of a cliff, you don't ask who is right? you say what are we doing on the edge of a cliff? we are looking to follow the edge of this cliff t. republican party at this point deserves to get its butt whipped for doing. okay. on that note, mort, stay with us. david axelrod, mike murphy thank you very much t. voters make up the nation's political mild at nbcnews.com/american center. we've featured some of them right here on the show. in just a few minute, we will exclusively reveal this year's panelists for the national awards. we'll be right back. at a ford dealer with a little q and a for fiona. tell me fiona, who's having a big tire event? your ford dealer. who has 11 major brands to choose from? your ford dealer. who's offering a rebate? your ford dealer. who has the low price tire guarantee, affording peace of mind to anyone who might be in the market for a new set of tires? your ford dealer. i'm beginning to sense a pattern. get up to $140 in mail-in rebates when you buy four select tires with the ford service credit card. where'd you get that sweater vest? your ford dealer. [ male announcer ] staying warm and dry has never been our priority. our priority is, was and always will be serving you, the american people. so we improved priority mail flat rate to give you a more reliable way to ship. now with tracking up to eleven scans, specified delivery dates, and free insurance up to $50 all for the same low rate. [ woman ] we are the united states postal service. [ man ] we are the united states postal service. [ male announcer ] and our priority is you. go to usps.com® and try it today. [ male announcer ] and our priority is you. for sein a whole new way. for seeing what cash is coming in and going out... so you can understand every angle of your cash flow- last week, this month, and even next year. for seeing your business's cash flow like never before, introducing cash flow insight powered by pnc cfo. a suite of online tools that lets you turn insight into action. ido more with less with buless energy. hp is helping ups do just that. soon, the world's most intelligent servers, designed by hp, will give ups over twice the performance, using forty percent less energy. multiply that across over a thousand locations, and they'll provide the same benefit to the environment as over 60,000 trees. that's a trend we can all get behind. >> up next, are house conservatives willing to swallow what comes out of the senate to keep from default? >> i am not. >> donny, you let everything. >> sean duffy is coming up next on "morning joe." this is unlike anything you have ever seen. . . >> with us now on capitol hill, we got congressman sean duffy, sean the "wall street journal" editorial page is saying quote, it's time to wrap up this comedy of political errors, talking about the best thing the republican party can do for the future of the republican party is admit they've screwed up and move onto the next fight. >> yeah. >> what do you think? >> i think we couldn't put a deal together last night, so harry reed and mitch mcconnell will work on a deal today. lit come to the house. >> what will happen? >> it will pass. >> why do you say that? >> i think like you said this morning, will you see a lot of democrats vote for it. you might get a few republicans to vote for it. i don't think you will see a wide swath more conservative caucus on what comes over from the senate. >> i would take it you consider yourself a conservative guy most your life, you are probably called nasty names by people. let me tell you, they are actually the real rhinos. what is it like being born a conservative, growing up a conservative, running office as a conservative, being elected as a contevtive and getting into office and finding out you have to embrace dumb tactics to be considered a conservative to certain groups in washington. >> like you mentioned, paul walker, good conservatives, i think some are trying to move the needle not to conservative but to libertarianism. that's a debate we have. i am proud of the caucus in this sense, we first proposed the president a defunding of obama care, we moved and said let's do a one year delay of obama care t. most recent offer before the government shut down waslet put the president in, obama care along with administration and treat the families like a business. it was a proposal we sent over to the president, he said no to, that caused the shutdown. it's been a pretty reasonable caucus as we engage in debate. >> i love this democracy. i love this country when obama care was passed by congress, passed by senate. >> upheld by the supreme court. >> in a popular election in 2012 when we elect obama. explain to me why that is a good tack tech or what was positive about that, what makes sense for the american people? >> let him answer. >> do you think it's unreasonable that obama be in obama care? >> is that a question? >> do you think it's unfair that obama be in obama care and the administration being in obama care. members of congress will be in, so do a lot of americans, isn't it unfair that the president be so great he join us in obama care, isn't that fair? >> that was the issue for the caucus and the republican party. >> listen, this is a proposal that we made before the government shutdown. we said obama has to be in obama care and treat people like big businesses in regard to taxes. last night the deal john bohner was working out was a clean cr, a funding bill and a debt limit increase for the extremes of president join us in obama care. the reason that's important is, if the administration families are sitting at the computer, jay carney's wife, michelle obama is sitting at the computer trying to sign up and they can't get in, they're going to be that much more compelled to fix the program. instead of saying i've got -- >> mika are laughing right now because yesterday. >> yeah. >> we were talking to somebody that ran one of the largest banks in america and they tried to get on to change benefits for their spouse and they conget anything done. so they mixed up the phone and they called the person who was in charge of benefits and called them into their office and said, are you trying to get on? have you tried to get on and change benefits for your spouse or anything? they said nosh, made them get on. they couldn't get it done. i'm telling you, does that not sound -- so the only reason i say that is, it's really, i think it is a rational reasonable argument mort zuckerman to say if you are going to except the administration from the affordable caring a, if you are going to exempt congress from the affordable care act, if you are going to exempt your favorite businesses from the affordable care act, we ask you exempt working class americans, middle class americans, small business owners from the affordable care act. is that not a rational argument? >> i think it is a rational argument. unfortunately, the republicans lost this argument before. it's all been gone lou the legislative process, the courts. they can bring this up over and over again. it's just going to destroy them politically. at some point you got to make a judgment here. >> they've lost that debate and this -- >> if the congressman wants to make that argument, you could pass the law. the problem is the reason the republicans are made the issue here is not the question. the issue here is not the question of whether or not that's a good idea, the question is whether house republicans can hold the country hostage over the debt ceiling over that issue. >> if the congress wants to pass that law pass the house of representatives, you pass the law. >> joe, are you telling me we're holding america hostage by asking obama to be in obama care? >> if that's the condition for the debt ceiling, yes, you r. it's exactly what are you doing. >> it's not unconditional. we had agreements in walk. no doubt. >> hold on, let the congressman answer the question. >> thank you, joe. >> go ahead, congressman. >> listen, the president is unwilling to engage in a debate. if you ask about fairness and equality under the law, they would say it's fair? that members of congress should be in obama care. the president, michelle the kids, my family, all the government families who voted for this legislation, they should be in it. they shouldn't have their gold plated plan. i don't think it's reasonable to make the argument the president will shut the government down because he doesn't want to be in obama care. mika, my mom is a good liberal. she loves you, she's happy i'm on the show. i think are you a part of the problem. you are a part of the problem, because the republican caucus sometimes can be unreasonable. look how far we want to move. we said we want to defund it. now we want to delay it. now ewe want to ask for weeks to and reforms. if you called out your liberal guests, why wouldn't you call for obama care? if it's good for americans, why isn't it good for you? if the american family can't sign up on the tax site, why attack them? >> you have a lot of good questions, you so kindly put it i will ask you very honestly. >> i would guess your question is better. >> that's fine. do you not think that members of your party, especially in congress and in the ted cruz group are not imploding the republican party big picture? just big picture. politics. put all this aside for a second. are you guys not imploding? >> big picture. i think this was a horrible strategy. i came on your show. i said. that if we had allowed obama care to roll out and for two weeks america saw the dysfunction. then as we roll into if debt limit and negotiate an increase, i think we would have got a one-year delay because america would have said this is only the fair and right thing to do. >> from a methodology standpoint, congressman, i agree with you. >> your mother. >> and your mom is fabulous by the way. >> i mom loves you. hi, mom. >> what is mom going to think about, saying you are the problem? >> is your mom calling you after this? >> he needs -- >> donny wants to know if your mom is going to call you after this and yelp at you? >> my mom will shout out after your program. >> what is your mom's name? >> carol. >> carol, we love you. we don't know what went wrong with your son. we love you. we know you are a wonderful woman. carol, i love your son. >> more thank you as well. >> mort, thanks a lot. >> from fiction to poetry, we will exclusively reveal this year's national book award awar final here on "morning joe." vo: two years of grad school. 20 years with the company. thousands of presentations. and one hard earned partnership. it took a lot of work to get this far. so now i'm supposed to take a back seat when it comes to my investments? there's zero chance of that happening. avo: when you work with a schwab financial consultant, you'll get the guidance you need with the control you want. talk to us today. [ babies crying ] surprise -- your house was built on an ancient burial ground. [ ghosts moaning ] surprise -- your car needs a new transmission. [ coyote howls ] how about no more surprises? now you can get all the online trading tools you need without any surprise fees. ♪ it's not rocket science. it's just common sense. from td ameritrade. it's just common sense. at a ford dealer with a little q and a for fiona. tell me fiona, who's having a big tire event? your ford dealer. who has 11 major brands to choose from? your ford dealer. who's offering a rebate? your ford dealer. who has the low price tire guarantee, affording peace of mind to anyone who might be in the market for a new set of tires? your ford dealer. i'm beginning to sense a pattern. get up to $140 in mail-in rebates when you buy four select tires with the ford service credit card. where'd you get that sweater vest? your ford dealer. with my united mileageplus explorer card. i've saved $75 in checked bag fees. [ delavane ] priority boarding is really important to us. you can just get on the plane and relax. [ julian ] having a card that doesn't charge you foreign transaction fees saves me a ton of money. [ delavane ] we can go to any country and spend money the way we would in the u.s. when i spend money on this card, i can see brazil in my future. [ anthony ] i use the explorer card to earn miles in order to go visit my family, which means a lot to me. ♪ we celebrate each and every morning and we are proud to recognize the best of the best with exclusive announcement of the national book award finalists. joining us now, the board of directors, david steinberg. nonfiction. >> the national box award finalists are, book of ages by jill le pore. book of fury, the great unwinding by george packer. the internal enemy by alan taylor and going clear. >> now to vicki. >> the national final. the screen throwers by rachel couchner. the lowlands. the good lord by james mcbride. leading edge by thomas stinson. >> before we go on, thomas mentioned unique among all the authors. >> he's the only that won the national book before. he will join john up sight and a handful of others who won this award. >> so now johnny deutsch's favorite category is poetry. >> i was reading with johnny in a moment. >> the national book award finalistings for poetry are the big smoke. >> wow. and finally young people's littiature. >> in young people's literature, the national book award finalists are, boxes and tape. the true blue self of sugar man's swamp. far, far away by tom mcneill. >> being a child at heart and mind, this is the first graphic novel that ever has been nominated this author was a finalist for the second time and if it it does win, it will be the first time. >> from the christian. >> wow. it was the only short story collection nominated for the national books. today's short story. >> thank you very much for that. >> so anything stand out to you? that either surprised you or you saw they were on the finals here? >> you were seeing in nonfiction, the emphasis on forgotten history. the book about ben franklin's sister. we know a lot about ben franklin and not a lot about his sister. this is the person he was closest to throughout his life. she was forgotten in her life and they were looking at the lifelong correspondent. >> german women and the nazis. tell us about that. >> the took is extraordinary and also this is about ordinary german women and their role in the holocaust. it's a harrowing read. a lot is lost on that. >> finally really quickly and we have to go, but talk about the unwinding. >> what happened to america since the 1970s. after the argument, the story of ordinary people and really fundamentally changed. they talked about people on the wrong side of the economic divide. >> go for a full list of finalists and the winner of the national award that will be announced on november 20th. up next, will congress save us for themselves? we'll be right back. la's known definitely for its traffic, congestion, for the smog. but there are a lot of people that do ride the bus. and now that the buses are running on natural gas, they don't throw out as much pollution into the air. so i feel good. i feel like i'm doing my part to help out the environment. you may be muddling through allergies. try zyrtec-d®. powerful relief of nasal congestion and other allergy symptoms -- all in one pill. zyrtec-d®. at the pharmacy counter. the most free research reports, customizable charts, powerful screening tools, and guaranteed 1-second trades. and at the center of it all is a surprisingly low price -- just $7.95. in fact, fidelity gives you lower trade commissions than schwab, td ameritrade, and etrade. i'm monica santiago of fidelity investments, and low fees and commissions are another reason serious investors are choosing fidelity. now get 200 free trades when you open an account. so i should probably get the last roll... yeah but i practiced my bassoon. [ mom ] and i listened. [ brother ] i can do this. [ imitates robot ] everyone deserves ooey, gooey, pillsbury cinnamon rolls. make the weekend pop. everyone deserves ooey, gooey, pillsbury cinnamon rolls. could save you fifteen percent or more on car insurance. mmmhmmm...everybody knows that. well, did you know that old macdonald was a really bad speller? your word is...cow. cow. cow. c...o...w... ...e...i...e...i...o. [buzzer] dangnabbit. geico. fifteen minutes could save you...well, you know. >> good morning. it's 8:00 on the east coast and 5:00 on the west coast. wake up. a live look at new york city. >> we have donny deutsch. and the associated press's julia paige. thank god. >> what's going on? >> you don't let them in. we tuesday on the air. you know how it's going end upon. >> how is it going to end? >> you have known for the past several weeks. some people in my party took a stupid pill and came up with a horrible strategy. we all said they were going to lose. we all said it. everybody. we all said it. they said guess what, going to lose. you are going to cave in. you are going to look horrible. i don't know how many baseballs are going to end, but i know how this is going to end. they are not going. >> they are taking the potential challenge of the credit rating and reduced financing flexibility of the united states. last night leaders from both parties scrambled to restart negotiations to end the shut down and extend the treasury's borrowing limit after a deal in the house fell apart. earlier in the day, harry reid and mitch mcconnell put the proposal on hold to allow the house at first, but after a full day of negotiations, speaker boehner was unable to deliver the republican 1r0e9s necessary to pass the bill after it was deemed unacceptable by many conservatives. democrats were outraged they were cutting back negotiations nearly 24-hours and putting all of washington under intense pressure to strike a last minute deal. >> this is not the first time. extremist republicans in the house are attempting to compete over the senate's progress with a bill that can't pass the senate. can't pass the senate and won't. john baner who once again tried to preserve his role as the saint of the country. >> the problem is that speaker boehner is negotiating with me is not good for the conversations. there have been situations where we have agreements and then he goes back and it turns out he can't control his caucus. the challenge here is can you deliver on agreements that are made? >> i top the get to charlie o'donnell. first, exactly. how do you know how it is? >> we all remember september 15th, 2008? do you remember that day? do you remember watching the television when the dow jones was losing 1,000 points and kept losing and people started wondering if their retirement was going to collapse? how do i know this is going to happen? i know at some point whether it's thursday or the following tuesday when the markets wake up and realize that there a lot of people who took the crazy pill in washington. those markets will collapse and john boehner will pal in like any responsible adult and they will run to the floor and end the crisis. >> they haven't seemed responsible. >> because you know what, negotiations and steve ratner said this last week. every negotiation goes down to the last second. >> you have the koch brothers and there is too much money at stake. everybody's net worth is between 30 and 45% going-over a cliff in day. >> let's be clear. those are two different things. there is a version of reality that is you default and the markets crash and the republicans come to their senses. another version of reality is we act at the last minute. the ratner scenario. tomorrow at the last hour we react and those would be two different outcomes. a huge market crash. >> you never get to the market crash. you get to actually everybody is calling boehner and saying you guys have about 12 hours. then they put a cream bill and default with the vote. and it crashes >> then responsible adults in the end will prevail, but let me give you the floor after telling this next story. this crystallizes whether or not they are adults. house republicans find themselves with their backs against the wall broke out in a hymn of amazing grace. >> i love that show. the best funeral song. wait, it's a funeral song. >> the congressman from texas noted how members of the party know all three verses by memory and said isn't that impressive. >> it's great on star trek and 1,000 years. >> it really is. democrat jerry conley of virginia thought differently. after laughing out loud, he asked the reporters, isn't that usually played at funerals? he is responsible responsible for his actions and the saving line of grace. i'm not saying my colleagues are wretched, but i hope it indicates, yada, yada, yada. you get the point. >> i love that song. >> it's going o. good to know we have a sound track to our crisis. i think joe was on to something and we are getting the exhaustion phase of a painful chapter. >> let me push the exhaustion button. go ahead. >> part of what derailed things late yesterday is the tea party conservatives were saying they cooperate go along, but not all for the same reason. parts of the bill dealt with various things that are not gettinga i lot of attention. people had different opinions about the things. it fell short. this really puts them in a position where it is kind of the final hail mary moment. i was there at the senate late last night where reid and mcconnell continued to work and the staff was working to get something ready to go. they were explaining the tactical things and they can come through with a deal and they passed it in the senate and it goes to boehner. i think joe's theory and the insight is probably right. you get to a point where democrats go with boehner and he will lose some of his conservatives, but there will be enough to get it through. that's the best case scenario. there has been a real calmness around john boehner that he is claiming every happened and giving those conservatives every chance to get their piece through and it has not worked we can say we tried it all. this is a line we can't cross. you can make it happen today. >> by the way, a major race here. >> for turns out -- >> what if i told you, the words are prolific. >> they are. very symbolic. >> let me tell you something. >> we usually hear that song at funerals. the work at the funeral homes. by the way. >> maybe that was part of the acceptance phase. >> i wonder about the one dark part. >> so ridiculous. you said we were going to. i don't think it's going to happen. they are most likely scenarios, but they are a better reporter than i will be. yesterday i thought there was a fair degree. it didn't seem like it was chaos to me. it wasn't controlled and to the behavior of the house republicans, the 30 or 40 or 50 members who have driven this point have not been wholly rationed. >> just stop making me tired. >> i'm tired. >> we going to score this really? i would love for them to go up. they are still talking like it's the beginning of september with a statement saying obama care is going to hurt him and all the things we conservatives know. >> obama care is going to hurt america. tell us something we don't know as conservatives. yet you are saying allow america to go over the financial cliff? even congress. mike lee, ted cruz moved on from the strategy. they get a press conference and they get their heads stuck in the sand. >> there members of congress who didn't move on either. they make the exhaustion phase and republicans have to understand we lost this battle weeks ago that we would not be able to win because we were demanding something that was never achievable. john mccain will be called a rhino. >> the "wall street journal" editorial page is even more. they warned you. >> lindsay graham said speaker binner was becoming a victim of the sales strategy that the republicans screwed up. peter king said the entire situation is saying this party has gone nuts. >> the "wall street journal" editorial page that i talked about, it's a bible for conservatism. you have the write ups. "wall street journal" editorial. write ups. what will the house republicans who don't get what they want which is taking a big piece out of the affordable care act at the end of the day. they have to pass things. what will they deal with to say to constituents or others that they got out of the deal. it does go down the way it played out. >> not a whole lot. they vote no against whatever measure and stuff on the floor. that may be something they can say this is a reason why you need to accepted us back. you need people in the house to say no to the democratic-led senate. you open the white house perspective and some people are watching this and relishing in the politics of it. the explosion of the republicans. this bolsters the president's position. i can't negotiate with john boehner. every time he comes to the table with the deal, whether he is coming with leadership or the white house, we don't know if he can get the vote. he throws out one deal and can't get the vote. it's another deal and can't get the vote. i think that we are probably going to see the senate today put forward a deal that connell and reid have been working on for a while. it will likely pass the senate and go to the floor and i think john boehner will get the full democratic vote, but it's so ugh low here even by washington standards, it's hard to predict. >> coming up, we will check in on bob filner. >> he will be on the show? >> the former mayor of san diego. >> in an orange jump suit? >> wanted for mistreating women. okay. we will tell you what else. he better be a pretty good actor to take on a with almost no dialogue and 31 pamgs of script. his new film is being called an epic achievement. he joins us straight ahead. speaking of epic, this is an epic disaster. bill is here with the report. >> a couple of years, don't worry about it. >> as far as today goes, we have the rain showers to deal with and it won't be bad. a weather story in a little bit. it's serious through the end of october. the temperatures on the east coast, enjoy the mild weather while it lasts. the front comes through and we don't expect enough. they ran up the street for little rock. the west coast by the way, you had a week straight of the gorgeous weather. no end in sight for either. san francisco to l.a., enjoy that. chicago area is one of the spots and the week ahead, it looks like fall and the chill is here to stay with highs in the 50s and lows into the 40s and 30s. overall not too shabby. new york city always crowded this time of morning. at least it's not raping. you are watching "morning joe." i'm tony siragusa and i'm training guys who leak a little, to guard their manhood with new depend shields and guards. the discreet protection that's just for guys. now, it's your turn. get my training tips at guardyourmanhood.com [ male announcer ] staying warm and dry has never been our priority. our priority is, was and always will be serving you, the american people. so we improved priority mail flat rate to give you a more reliable way to ship. now with tracking up to eleven scans, specified delivery dates, and free insurance up to $50 all for the same low rate. [ woman ] we are the united states postal service. [ man ] we are the united states postal service. [ male announcer ] and our priority is you. go to usps.com® and try it today. man: sometimes it's like we're still in college. but with a mortgage. and the furniture's a lot nicer. and suddenly, the most important person in my life is someone i haven't even met yet. who matters most to you says the most about you. at massmutual we're owned by our policyowners, and they matter most to us. as you plan your next step, we'll help you get there. the former san diego mayor bob dole is pleading guilty for charges from the alleged mistreatment of women. after numerous allegations came out and he was charged with felony, false imprisonment and battery. he will be banned and home for three months. >> florida girls ages 12 and 14 are facing felony aggravated stalking charges accused of bullying classmates. 12-year-o 12-year-old rebecca committed suicide. it was in person and online. the turning point was saturday when one of the girls wrote on facebook yes, i know i bullied rebecca and she killed herself, but i dgaf. >> i don't give a -- >> come on. this is real. >> it happened. it happens. >> think of the mother and the father. >> they are looking not just at the girl, but the parents not controlling it. it will be one of the bigger issues with technology and how you monitor that and how you control it. it's such a challenge for parents. >> i control it in my house. the kids get really, really upset, but the bottom line is you own those devices and as parents, you are responsible for them. >> you have to let them know you are not only going to read them, you will monitor them. >> in your son or daughter is bullied online, you can call the parents and say hey, listen. let me tell you what i saw on line. you keep your daughter or son out of my child's way or you are going to talk about this at school. >> the damage has been done. i know that. >> that's a terrible story. new york post last week and new york city, there were no murders in any of the borrows. the fst time since last january. so far in 2013, there have been 256 murders, down from the same period last year. >> "san francisco chronicle," the body of an 18-footlong serpent ept like sea creature -- >> i love this story. >> it was discovered off catalina island in southern california. crazy. a diver discovered the 300 pound fi fish. >> that was 15 feet? up to 50 feet. >> no. you need 50 people and they swim for more than three. >> if you ever catch con, i wouldn't stop it. i rode one. >> nobody laughed. lock at that fish. >> it's 50 feet. catalina island, i went to boy scout camp and we were excited. >> this is important. >> oreos just as addictive as cocaine. they are not, are they? >> no. >> the stuff in the oreo. is that what happens? >> no, actually -- >> you wouldn't believe it. okay, a study of lab rats by students at connecticut college, the oreos triggered more than cocaine. this study has been done before at other universities with other types of foods with sugary fat. it's in the food and causes the same reaction from the center of the brain like that cookie. >> you know the difference is, you gain weight or you lose weight. >> or both. >> you vote. >> that's only the right way. >> that's now when you and i go to vegas, you save a lot of time and effort. >> it's double stuff. >> okay. >> all right, the great mind. >> that is an honor and a privilege. >> look and the playbook of mine. it was a big mayoral debate in new york city. the federal government shut down is a heated local issue with places like new york city, the democrats had something like 60 points. they were with national republicans and the tea party. >> interesting that the tea party on staten island was the support and the tea party members said they were close to this. we don't need republicans's trickle down economics. the idea that the tea party is holding up obama care and the situation, this is really more honest with us. if you go to the tea party, it's not on the same thing. >> i don't agree with financial republican party long and hard. i am pro choice, they are not. i am pro gay rights and marriage equality and they are not. i have been outspoken about this over and over again. when i went, there were things i disagreed with. do not love me as a national republican. it's unbecoming. >> there was a debate and you heard some of these as well. the republicans in washington in washington. >> good luck. there was a conversation about the brand. the democrats had any republicans whether they agree with the tea party and the stuff having to do with the shut down last night. there was only one other debate. he did nothing to change the debate and complained all he wants and doesn't have anything to do with it. as a republican attorney general cuccinelli, he had the governments open and yes, all the ads are directed at him. >> for ken cuccinelli, can it be any worse than right now? he already had problems with the book he wrote and talking about medicare and social security. as you know, you win the primary in the middle of virginia for governor. suddenly washington is blowing up. it's a horrible time for ken cuccinelli. >> at the same time they thought virginia was a purple state, but it's a blue state right now. >> it's a great time and you made a point. to a i'm not a washington republican, keep running in that direction right now. >> chris christie. ever been to catalina island. i hear it's great. wow. >> mike allen, thanks. coming up next, robert redford and why he calls his new film pure cinema. next on "morning joe." ♪ at any minute... ...you could be a victim of fraud. most people don't even know it. fraud could mean lower credit scores, higher loan rates... ...and maybe not getting the car you want. it's a problem waiting to happen. check your credit score, check your credit report, at experian.com america's number one provider of online credit reports and scores. don't take chances. go to experian.com. avo: sales event is "sback.hen drive" which means it's never been easier to get a new passat, awarded j.d. power's most appealing midsize car, two years in a row. and right now you can drive one home for practically just your signature. get zero due at signing, zero down, zero deposit, and zero first month's payment on any new 2014 volkswagen. hurry, this offer ends october 31st. for details, visit vwdealer.com today. . >> academy award winning director with robert redford. i don't know if i have the words, but all is lost with robered redfort in tobert redfo business of dying. would you say this this is the last? >> no. >> only robert redford is saying that. >> no. that's for other poem to say. >> how about the challenge? >> the challenge was one of the reasons i did it. it was full of challenges. one of them being there was no dialogue. there was no dialogue. >> that was one of the 31 cases. >> that was probably all of it. there was no dialogue and it was a pure challenge. really hoping to find it in my time. the challenges were a risk. also to occupy the boat for that long would be challenges to make it work. >> it was also what it means to be all alone and what it means to be such a parallel. >> there is a lot if you top the go there. want to go to politics, how alone did you feel? >> depends on who you ask in washington right now. >> anyway, i think the idea is alone and facing that we are all going to die. i hate to naught on the show, but we are all going to die and we have to face that inevitability. how you do it when the time comes. >> it's interesting. it brought me back to that against the west. this rugged individual and i was blown away by the film. without giving away the ending, what's the message for us on perseverance? whether we are going against the econ mow and whether it's a metaphor. >> for me, i don't know what it is. it goes back to the 1970s. that was the man alone on land. this was the man that was at what point do you say with insur mountable odds, all is lost. some people would give up and quit. there is though other reason than that's all there is to do. >> we have another scene from the film where the character is trying to simply find should go to eat. let's take a look. >> you obviously won an academy award directing. in this one you act. is it hard to sit back because you are a prolific director and push direction? >> i love that i could do that. i love the idea because i just directed a film that i could get myself over to a dresser and not think about directing. i could do that because it was so strong and hoe has such a grip on his idea. when i met him, my gut said go with it unless he's crazy. he wasn't and i said let's do it. that was great. there were too many people in the kitchen. you have managers and handlers and you are pushing every kind of a conclusion. i love the idea of turning myself over. the irony was that of all the people i supported over the years, nobody asked me to do the film. >> let me ask you the questions about crafts. you talk about very little dialogue. there was no back story. as you are doing this or having this for two hours, it's just you. do you give yourself a back story? is it in your mind this character how they live and how you did it in your head? >> it is. i tell you what i liked about it. the lack of dialogue and the lack of information that became existential. i took the keys to what was there. this was a guy who said only one thing. i'm sorry, i tried. i think you know i tried. that tells you that he did make an effort to fail and didn't quite make a mark. maybe this journey has to do with completing something he never would have. that's all i really needed. >> that sounds like all of us. all is lost premiers on friday in new york city in los angeles. nationwide on october 25th, it is unbelievable. robert redford, thank you. great to have you back on the show. up next, a big day and how the traders positioned themselves with day less. cnbc's kelly evans is live when we return. at a ford dealer with a little q and a for fiona. tell me fiona, who's having a big tire event? your ford dealer. who has 11 major brands to choose from? your ford dealer. who's offering a rebate? your ford dealer. who has the low price tire guarantee, affording peace of mind to anyone who might be in the market for a new set of tires? your ford dealer. i'm beginning to sense a pattern. get up to $140 in mail-in rebates when you buy four select tires with the ford service credit card. where'd you get that sweater vest? your ford dealer. customer erin swenson ordebut they didn't fit.line customer's not happy, i'm not happy. sales go down, i'm not happy. merch comes back, i'm not happy. use ups. they make returns easy. unhappy customer becomes happy customer. then, repeat customer. easy returns, i'm happy. repeat customers, i'm happy. sales go up, i'm happy. i ordered another pair. i'm happy. (both) i'm happy. i'm happy. happy. happy. happy. happy. happy happy. i love logistics. you may be muddling through allergies. try zyrtec-d®. powerful relief of nasal congestion and other allergy symptoms -- all in one pill. zyrtec-d®. at the pharmacy counter. [ babies crying ] surprise -- your house was built on an ancient burial ground. [ ghosts moaning ] surprise -- your car needs a new transmission. [ coyote howls ] how about no more surprises? now you can get all the online trading tools you need without any surprise fees. ♪ it's not rocket science. it's just common sense. from td ameritrade. >> now with kelly evans, the shut down is already having an impact on morgan applications. >> exactly. it is starting to show up across a range of things. last night one of the major ratings firms warned they will downgrade the u.s., saying they put the aaa negative on a negative. if there is a tampering with payments, it could put the u.s. on selective default. that happened and they downgraded the u.s. a couple of years ago. the last time on what happened in washington, much more troubling. we got the figures in regards to mortgage applications. the interest rates have moved higher and it was down by 50% compared to this time last year. applications for new mortgages if you are buyinga i home are falling as well. they are down by 1% from this time last year. if you think about the importance, this is where we don't top the see that impact. >> but then with all the talking, stocks are up and not up by ten points. we have to talk about why the markets are not nervous. >> we had a sell off over the last couple of days that had people pricing in a little bit more of the calamity in washington. it is this out come that there is no way it could possibly happen. a lot of people say they don't want to get out of the market because as soon as there is somewhere to go, all of the money comes back in. we will stay here and hope they don't screw this up. really unless it gets to the point where the u.s. is saying that there is no payments on social security and the economy in terms of government spending turns south and until or unless that happens, i don't expect further reaction here. >> the loading down moment is not tomorrow. i am serious. let's say the moment does come. what kips of markets are they showing? >> i will try to keep it frequent. we are not talking about the hard and fast deadline, but increasingly difficult choices as they can't borrow anymore. that's in terms of social security and coming to you towards the end of the month and mid-november. there is not novemberly going to be a moment where all of that happens at once. before we get to that point and have to make the decisions and gifts. >> was that systemic failure? the united states is pushing and now we have to slap them out of it. 2008, it might have been a dead body. there is a big difference in the downside. we have to figure it out. the money is there. >> kelly evans, hillary clinton is going support the bin laden way and the vice president is not. kicking into gear. that story when we return. for seeing your business in a whole new way. for seeing what cash is coming in and going out... so you can understand every angle of your cash flow- last week, this month, and even next year. for seeing your business's cash flow like never before, introducing cash flow insight powered by pnc cfo. a suite of online tools that lets you turn insight into action. afghanistan in 2009. on the u.s.s. saratoga in 1982. [ male announcer ] once it's earned, usaa auto insurance is often handed down from generation to generation because it offers a superior level of protection and because usaa's commitment to serve current and former military members and their families is without equal. begin your legacy. get an auto insurance quote. usaa. we know what it means to serve. always go the extra mile. to treat my low testosterone, i did my research. my doctor and i went with axiron, the only underarm low t treatment. axiron can restore t levels to normal in about 2 weeks in most men. axiron is not for use in women or anyone younger than 18 or men with prostate or breast cancer. women, especially those who are or who may become pregnant and children should avoid contact where axiron is applied as unexpected signs of puberty in children or changes in body hair or increased acne in women may occur. report these symptoms to your doctor. tell your doctor about all medical conditions and medications. serious side effects could include increased risk of prostate cancer; worsening prostate symptoms; decreased sperm count; ankle, feet or body swelling; enlarged or painful breasts; problems breathing while sleeping; and blood clots in the legs. common side effects include skin redness or irritation where applied, increased red blood cell count, headache, diarrhea, vomiting, and increase in psa. ask your doctor about the only underarm low t treatment, axiron. was a truly amazing day.ey, without angie's list, i don't know if we could have found all the services we needed for our riley. from contractors and doctors to dog sitters and landscapers. you can find it all on angie's list. join today. >> 53 past the hour and new speculation today hitting the democrats. the members of the photo with the situation the bin laden way between then secretary of state hillary clinton and joe biden. clinton started to take the side for biden for opposing the rays. the constitution reports the rays in a recent address. a state representative said clinton's press and vice president biden adviced against it. clinton made a similar statement at an event in new york. anything there? >> the vice president has published and showed about 150,000 times. it seems like it's a secret, but it's not. they mix the argument that president obama went against the advice. the vice president is running away from the point. >> that's a little bit. >> tomorrow we will be in washington. the final day before the nation's deadline. cokie roberts will be among the many guests. up next, what if anything did we learn today? >> i have no idea how this is going to end. >> i learned so much today. first of all that redford movie. wow is all i can say. i found out that in vegas, stopping and going to a hotel, saving. the oreo creams. >> stop that. and so thank you guys for watching. i do apologize for that.
tonight, my favorite and most talked about interviews of the year. >> the most important thing to remember is i did not punch the guy. >> superstars. >> we have this amazing job, just show up and be prepared. >> can dals. >> any excuse i make, whether it was a rough time in my life, people there, my friends, they baited me, none of that matters. >> i love maria. she's been truly the only love that i've ever had. >> the laughs. >> you're not pronouncing it correctly. it's 50 shades of chartreuse. >> you look fantastic. >> the stories that shocked us. >> if you want to get high, you're going to get high. >> from heavyweights. >> i know how to handle them. i don't want to beat them up. >> to the fastest human alive. >> it's one of the biggest things to me. >> without a doubt, the most explosive and dangerous interview my entire life. >> where are you going, i'm interested in what happened? >> no, you're not interested. what are you doing, what the hell are you doing? >> people are still talking about it. we'll find out why. "piers morgan tonight" starts now. good evening, this year i've talked to some of the top entertainers in the world, people that make us laugh, make us cry, as i discovered when i sat down with them, they also make us think. every one of them fascinating and surprising things to say about the wider world outside the glittering confines of hollywood. and every one of them is also a lot of fun. tonight you'll hear from some of my favorites. we begin with a man once as famous for outbursts as well as acting. he is, of course, alec baldwin. >> cleverly eluded to moments ago. >> your relationship with the media is fascinating, because you've always been very good copy for them, and you sort of play the game. occasionally, you just blow up. now you seem to be in an almost permanent rage with them. why do you have such conflict with them? >> i don't think i do have any conflict with them in the sense that guy you're talking about, that photographer, i think the most important thing to remember is i did not punch the guy, and the guy was overheard by witnesses going down the street going down his camera saying, there's one, there's a good one, oh, i like that one. he's going through the whole roll of his film, then they go down to the police station, he presses charges, the charges are dismissed. i don't think i'm somebody that has the da's office or police in my pocket, there was no case there. >> is there a way not to deal with them, alec? i know you get much more attention than i would, but whenever i go across these guys, tmz, they follow you around with a video -- >> very low threshold for entertainment. >> i find them as a necessary part of the business. >> difference of opinion we have. >> i would call them attacks. attacks on show business. >> you have a very different opinion than i do. my attitude is the business would be infinitely better if all of them were gone. >> really? >> if i could press a button and swirl them down a sewer of vortex, i'd do it. where's the button? >> here's the deal, we'll leave you alone. you can never have any more publicity for anything you do. >> that's not really practical. you will have publicity. listen, i'm not opposed to -- even though i'm not completely ecstatic about the entertainment journalism out there, because it cheapens show business and demystifies show business, but the ones that you call the got ya journalism, that's one i think we can all do without. last time you were on the show, i got great feedback to the back story that you bring before you even get to making movies, but the one thing i came away from is that you had, in changing your life around, the work ethic that you've brought to everything you now do is incredibly impressive. nothing tells it better than this. seth mack farland said about what you did is the single most prepared human being, it's astonishing. not much he can't do. he's versatile, always surprising, such a humble guy, and you're not, you're not look at me, i can do this. but it's an amazing thing you can do that kind of scene in one hit. it shows proper dedication. >> well, it's your job, you know? i've worked with many actors that are paid a lot of money and don't show up and know lines. >> any names? >> plenty, plenty. i'll tell you after the show, but it's frustrating to me. you're getting paid a lot of money. we have this amazing job. just show up and be prepared, you know? just work with russell crowe, and the guy is such a pro. we had pages and pages of monologues, the guy, every single time. >> who is the best prepared? who are the ones you look at and go that's where i want to be? >> russell crowe is extremely prepared, you know, robert duval is, you know, the consummate professional. when you wanted to get into show business, was part of the allure of it being famous, when you look back to that time? >> i have to say, this is true of a lot of comedians, and i've talked to other comedians and heard them say the same thing, and i defy anyone to deny this. for most of us, it's getting girls to notice us. it really is, and it's -- it's still probably on some level. i'm very happily married, two kids, but there's something initially, especially, in those early days. you notice, you go through the checklist in your mind, what do i have that might interest a girl. i didn't have much. i'm not a good athlete, skin's not -- down the list, hair's a little silly, name's weird, then i got to -- they laugh. when i start joking around, they laugh and they hang around a little bit. so probably that's the initial, if i'm going to be brutally honest, it was just to get -- >> just to get girls? >> not even get them. to get them to look in my direction, piers, i'm taking it down to a much more basic level. aaron, you said, abdicated responsibility, i've met people who want to carry that torch. i suppose critics would say, look, you got to live in the real world a little bit in the sense if you go to high fa luting with your news kovrnl, try to do it in the purist sense, what your character does in this show, it doesn't rate, especially if it's not big breaking news. i can tell you for a hard, unpalatable fact, that is true. >> i know it's true. >> it's hard. so how do you tackle that? you've had your toes dipped in our waters for a while. if you were running a news network, what would you do? >> first, let me back up a bit and say i don't have to live in the real world. i'm a fiction writer. i get to write, you know, a democratic administration that can get things done. and i get to write about a very idealistic newsroom where these guys reach unrealistically high, so they fall down a lot. but we're still rooting for them anyway. but there's no question that the -- the antagonist in this show is -- doesn't come so much in the form of a person, although that's the role jane fon da plays and that's the role that chris messina plays. it's ratings, that if we have a problem in this country with the news, it's at least as much the consumer's fault as it is the provider's fault. but the show doesn't live in the real world. it seems like it does, because it's set against the backdrop of real news events. we never do fictional news on the show, it's all real. the characters are fictional, not based on anybody, i know you're going to get to that question. but it's -- they are constantly referencing don quitoe, brigg doon, camelot, atlantis, and these are all imaginary lost cities. >> unabashedly romantic and idealistic. he excels in that. it's the happy ending. the swash buckling, he said. and aaron told me, when we started this, by the way, if you're in here to be likable all the time and, you know, it ain't going to work that way, because you're going to fail. will is going to fail miserably, and we do. over the first season, it is a struggle, just like the struggle a lot of these tv journalists say they are going through. >> and willie is a quite spectacular [ bleep ] from time to time, also. which is why i like him so much. >> thank you. behind the music, there's something for everyone where some of my favorite singers tell their stories. >> i was about to ask you how many times you've been properly in love in your life. >> past is just a blur to me now, piers. it's all just a blur. now is the time. now is all that matters. tyeah, its the galaxy note ii.re great. you can do two things at the same time. you can watch videos and text. or you could watch the earnings report and take notes, like we're supposed to. so... can i get it? yeah. okay either of you put together the earnings report? yes, me totally. why don't you tackle the next quarter while we go to lunch. pu pu platter? yup! keep up the good work. i will keep up the good work. do more with the new samsung galaxy note ii. for a limited time get two flipcovers for the price of one. exclusively at verizon. aside from a bruising encounter with onedirection on twitter, i generally enjoy talking with musicians, new artists and those whose songs define a generation, then there's a rare occasion i can ask which of their songs means the most to them. >> hello. that was terrible. that was terrible. i got a great tweet here, watching lionel ritchie, what charisma, fascinating dude, love his funky stuff, not into the balance. >> you know what the answer to that is, he's not in love yet. >> that is true. >> listen, i can tell you the reviews. >> dancing on the ceiling until you meet the right girl. >> there was a reviewer, for years, sappy, syrupy, sticky, gummy, then all of a sudden he reviewed me 20 years later, lionel, do you have another one of those amazing ballots. oh, you're married now? yes, two kids now, lionel. in other words, until you fall in love, you know nothing of what i'm talking about. >> have you ever made love to your own music? >> you have asked the -- who is this guy? you mean my first love was not enough? >> no, i need more from you. >> the answer is absolutely not. >> never? >> are you kidding me? >> be a bit awkward. >> i love it when someone says, do you whisper? of course, i do. are you kidding me? i'm tacky. >> who is the biggest, most romantic, sexual singer you've ever deployed. >> holy cow, that's pretty interesting. well, marvin gaye. >> has to be, right? >> marvin did it for me. i want to talk about it straight off the top, let's talk about the elephant in the room here. you're one of the most fame us country singers ever and are married to one of the most famous country singers ever. your husband and i have never met, but i feel i know him really well. the reason, the last six years on "america's got talent," i've seen more acts murdering your husband's songs than any other musician or singer alife. if i have to hear one more version of -- ♪ tomorrow never comes -- it gave me ear aches. i want to apologize to him, through you, about the massacring of his music. >> you sort of massacred that yourself. >> wasn't as bad as when i tried to sing hello to lionel richie. >> were you really trying? >> you know what, i always like to make the guests feel like they are the star, you know, contrary to popular perception. with you and lionel, you think you're better singers, gives you more confidence. >> ego boost. nice of you, really. >> only sold, what, 10 million albums? >> something like that. >> what's the worst song you've written? >> i don't want to say. >> come on. cnn worldwide audience, worst bruno mars song you have written, the one even know makes you come ut in a weird sweat. >> me and my partner wrote a song called "bedroom bandit." i promise you, piers, had you been in the studio, we thought we were going to win 18 grammys off this song. then the next day we called each other up like what were we thinking? >> you've been involved in songs about desperately wanting to be a billionaire. >> and that's the beauty about billionaire. if you listen to the lyrics of it, it's really not about -- i mean, it is, and we touch on it a little bit, but i wrote "billionaire" when i was flat broke. i just helped write a song for flo rida, biggest song downloads, it broke records, and i was flat broke. >> how? >> because -- again, i can explain all that. it works differently for song writers. song writers, you have to wait for residuals, pray the song is a hit and a year later you might get a check. >> you're seeing this song go around the world, massive, huge, international hit, and you're making nothing? >> and i can't buy a sandwich? >> literally? >> literally. what is the song, of all the songs that you've ever been involved with, what is the one if i said, glen, you've got five minutes to live, you can play one song to be remembered by, the defining song. >> well, you know, i have my favorite records, you know. >> what's your number one? >> i loved "one of these nights." i thought that was a really interesting song. i thought it was cowboy, r&b, fuzz tones instead of saxophones. great soul singer, don henley, you know, cool chord progression, mine. that was one of my absolute favorite eagles records. >> and who of all the acts out there now, who's the one that excites you, the modern crowd? >> i love adele. i watched the grammys this year, and the grammys, there was a lot of glamour, a lot of dancers, there was a lot of flash, all of that, and then adele came on, everyone was dressed in black, only had white light on her, and she stood there and burned. when we come back, the men and women who inspire us with their quests to be the best. >> yes! yes! yes! yes! >> oh, come on! >> yes! >> that was nice. you did good. you beat me. ♪ aww man. [ male announcer ] returns are easy with free pickup from the u.s. postal service. we'll even drop off boxes if you need them. visit usps.com pay, print, and have it picked up for free. any time of year. ♪ nice sweater. thank you. ♪ [ male announcer ] when diarrhea hits, kaopectate stops it fast. powerful liquid relief speeds to the source. fast! [ male announcer ] stop the uh-oh fast with kaopectate. anyone who knows me knows i'm a football fanatic, the round ball football. also tended the summer olympics in london and made a bet with former president bill clinton on the ryder cup, which he paid up for, by the way. this year i talked to the biggest names in sports about what it takes to be the very best and what it feels like to be a world champion. >> what a moment for you, huh, the green jacket. can i touch it? >> go ahead. >> how does it feel? >> feels nice. >> how does it really feel to be bubba watson right now? >> it's overwhelming, people like yourself wanting to talk to me. for me to come to new york and do these interviews and meet you for the first time, it's a special time. >> why have you given me the big, exclusive interview. somebody has told me a rather unnerving reason why. >> because when you were on this other show, "america's got talent," you were a [ bleep ], so i wanted to come here and make fun of you just like you make fun of everybody else. >> i heard that's a reason. that's genuinely why, isn't it? i'm a [ bleep ]. >> exactly. >> i don't care how we got you here. i'll take it. how hard is it for people who have been at the top of boxing, with all the adrenaline and buildup to these fights for months, you get in there, the adrenaline rush, the public going crazy, then the actual fight, then suddenly it's all over. you don't have it in your life anymore. >> yeah, then you go to drugs, you try to get the high again, but then you realize all the drugs, all the meth, all the cocaine, all the liquor, can't produce that high no more. can't produce that high, then you realize the high comes from within, you know. so many of us, entertainers, just people with a lot of money in general, all failed in that and try to succeed and get happiness through substance. >> do you still, last time i interviewed you, you gave me the feeling that you're not completely confident that you won't blow up again. how do you feel now? >> well, i don't put myself in those situations. i never look at myself as out of it, this can never bother me again. once i think that way, i'm looking for my next hit. once i feel that this is -- i'm the man again, can never get high. any moment now i'm ready for the next line, that's just who i am. that's how much of an animal i am when it comes to drugs and addiction and stuff. i'm really a nasty animal, and that's how come i'm so happy it's changed my life and i'm with my family and learning how to be a functioning human being in society. this is just so awesome. >> when was the last time you hit a man? >> i don't know, maybe three years ago at the airport. >> oh, the photographer, yeah. good shot? >> yeah. no, i was getting ready to hit the camera, so happy i didn't hit him with the camera, i wouldn't be here. so happy i didn't do that. >> i assume the paparazzi give you a pretty easy ride, right? >> i know how to handle them. i just love them, just love them. last time i saw you play for real was at wimbledon about three years ago, and you were playing, i think, a quarterfinal game against a tiny eastern european waif. it was the single most brutal thing i have ever seen on any sports arena ever. >> now you're making me feel bad. >> you didn't feel bad at the time. i was inwardly, like, i wanted to get on the court and rescue this poor girl. >> oh, no. >> it was a high form of brutality that was going on. you obliterated her. but what i was struck by was the longer it went on, just the more ruthless you became. the more in the zone, louder, the more physically empowering. it was the most impressive thing i've seen in sports in years. what do you feel when you're going through that kind of process, you're in the zone, and you're winning, what do you experience? >> well, when you're out there, you have to take the winners attitude, at least i do, and i can't go out there thinking i'm feeling sorry, because they are trying to win too. this is my job, to go out and do the best that i can at that moment in time. you never know what happens tomorrow. what does it take to be a champion, not just any old champion, to be a great champion? >> well, just hard work. for me, it was just hard work and dedication. and, as i said, you just need a team, because for me, i remember this year i was going on and doing well, doing well. and then all of a sudden i got to the trials, i lost, then i was like -- and then i refocused and i really talked to my coach, talked to my friends, talked to my agent buddy, they explained to me, no need to worry, especially my coach. we have three, four weeks to go, one month, put the work, sacrifice a few things and get it done. so i did just that. >> what is it that motivates you most now? is it the winning, is it being the champ, is it money? is it fame, is it the women, is it all of it? >> it's everything. it's all a package. it's all a package. everything comes together, i think. for me, fans are one of the biggest things for me. i really enjoy going out and performing for the fans. the energy that they give me. when we return, so many scandals in one interview that went right off the rails. yes, i'm looking at you, robert blake. >> it's not about me, is it? >> yes, it is, because you opened that door, charlie potatoes. i'm not going to let -- i'm not going to sit here and let you or anybody else kick the [ bleep ] out of me without defending myself, and you can take that to the [ bleep ] bank, charlie. if you want to show me the door, that's fine, too. tragically, their buddy got sacked by blackouts. but it's our tradition! that's roughing the card holder. but with the capital one venture card you get double miles you can actually use. [ cheering ] any flight, anytime. the scoreboard doesn't lie. what's in your wallet? hut! i have me on my fantasy team. i'm here to unleash my inner cowboy... instead i got heartburn. [ horse neighs ] hold up partner. prilosec isn't for fast relief. try alka-seltzer. kills heartburn fast. yeehaw! kills heartburn fast. we asked total strangers to watch it for us. thank you so much. i appreciate it. i'll be right back. they didn't take a dime. how much in fees does your bank take to watch your money? if your bank takes more money than a stranger, you need an ally. ally bank. your money needs an ally. three big names, not a stranger to scandal or tabloid headlines, each told me their sorted stories. only one had me fearing for my safety. here's from an interview i've never done before and i hope i don't have to again. my conversation with robert blake. >> do you remember the night that she died well, or is it now something you blocked out of your head? >> no, i remember it quite well. >> you went and had dinner at this restaurant. >> where are you going? >> i'm interested in what happened. >> no, you're not interested. what are you doing? what the hell are you doing? >> let me help you. there's no one talking to me. you don't got to worry. these are my questions for you, based in my view. >> now you want to know what happened that night? >> i'm curious, yeah. >> you're not curious. i thought you said you researched this so you know what happened that night. >> i know the facts of the night. i'm curious about -- >> tell me about the facts of the night. >> you take your wife to dinner to a restaurant. >> go ahead. >> your wife goes to the car. you go back to retrieve, as you say, your gun, which is in the restaurant. and when you return, your wife has been shot dead. when they test the gun that you go and retrieve, that is not the same gun that killed her. am i right so far? >> so far. >> factually correct. i have no agenda here, at all. you think i do, but i don't. >> it sounds boring as hell, but go ahead. >> i don't think it's boring, your wife good murdered. >> your questions are boring. even what you said, are you sure people give a [ bleep ] about any of this? >> i think you're here because you've written a book about your life. >> there's a lot more to my life than that night. >> probably nothing more significant. >> bull [ bleep ]. >> than the murder of your wife? >> i didn't murder my wife, it may be significant to you, but it isn't to me. you said there's nothing more significant. >> than the murder of your wife. >> personally, it's not the most significant thing in my life. the most significant thing in my life is when i was 2 years old and i found an audience. the next most significant thing is when i went to mgm as an extra and three years later, i starred in my first film, you know? america just was going to war, it was the worst time in the world for america, but there's nothing more significant than a little boy with no parents, no friends, nothing, walking into mgm and three years later starring in his first film. you know how significant that is? no, because you've never lived my life. it's my fault. there's no one else to blame for it. i wouldn't even begin to start pointing a finger at anybody, because the reality is i created it. i created my career and all of those kind of things and the relationship and all of this, but i also screwed up badly, and i take the full blame for it. the key thing now is to kind of, like, figure out how to build all this back and how to gain the trust of the children again and have a good relationship with the kids, which is so important to me. i love my kids dearly, and i love maria. i mean, i love maria. she is been truly the only love that i've ever had, and that's what is so pitiful about it. it's one thing if you have a situation like that and just say, well, i was ready to get out of this situation anyway, out of this marriage, but that's not the case. she was the most perfect wife, and she was extraordinary. >> you've hinted in some of the interviews you've given that you hope to get back with maria, and, in fact, you've gone a bit further and believe from her side there may also be something that she may wish. do you think there's a good chance you could get back together? >> i cannot speak for maria. she has to speak for herself, but i can only tell you i hope that eventually we can rebuild the relationship and that we will be together as one family. >> what people find most incomprehensible is somebody as successful as you, somebody as rich as you, as politically motivated as you were at the time, would take such an extraordinary risk. by was it actually more complexed? was it the risk you were taking seemed one of the safest risks you could take, that it was with somebody in your home who you could trust, you wouldn't tell anybody, was it more that? >> i would say that it makes no difference. you know, it makes no difference what was going through my mind at that time. it doesn't clean up the mess. it doesn't soften the blow to my family. i mean, what i've done is just about the stupidest thing that any human being can do. before we get into politics and life and the universe, a certain story has bubbled up this week about you involving a certain videotape. >> yes, sir. >> how are you handling it? >> well, the big white elephant in the room you can't avoid. you take a deep breath. you have to make sure you're honest, because you have to be accountable, and you address it, and at end of the day, you know, pray to god that those that love you and the people close to you, like your friends -- sometimes you don't even know if they are your friends, but your children and your wife knows who you are, and you get on situations like your show and when asked, you know, at the end of the day, you know, you realize it was a horrible choice. i am accountable, and any excuse i make, whether it was a rough time in my life or the people that were there were my friends and they kind of baited me to it, none of that matters. it's just you're accountable and be honest. >> it must be very humiliating. have you ever been through something quite like this, have yourself having sex on a video people are watching, especially in the internet age, how do you feel about that? >> never, and i've been through a lot of stuff. i've been through a lot of stuff with the federal government back in the '80s, the whole steroid controversy, the divorce, the car wrecks, i've been through so much stuff, but never have i ever been this embarrassed and my world been turned so upsidedown in such a fashion and without knowledge someone would set a camera, poor choice, admitted, i did that. coming up, remembering two of the biggest names in music, whitney houston and dick clark. >> this is the beaver that bit your hand? >> not the same beaver, but exactly like this. here, touch the beaver. >> no. the world lost some beloved entertainers this year, from larry hagman and andy griffith to davey jones of the monkeys and adam yalk of the beasty boys, but two stand out, dick clark, the eternal teenager, and the tragic loss of whitney houston. i can tell you're angry about what's happened here. the blame game has begun. a lot of people want to blame bobby brown, a lot of people want to blame the music business, some people want to blame everyone. what do you think? >> well, it's all of the above and a whole lot more, but it boils down to you. you know, i was introduced to certain people and to certain opportunities to -- to use recreational drugs, and it boils down to whether i want to do it or not. and she was a strong-willed, strong-minded girl, and i can't say thatt's all anybody's fault -- >> would she have gone down that route, do you think, without bobby brown in her life? >> well, without him, somebody else. if she wants to get high -- if you want to get high, you're going to get high. >> you think she had that tendency anyway? >> i think that we all as artists, because we're highly sensitive people, and this machine around us, this so-called music industry, is such a demonic thing. it sacrifices people's lives and their essences at the drop of a dime. we touched earlier on whitney houston, a friend of yours, and you've been quite candid about trying to help her. you rang her or felt compelled to ring her on the night michael jackson died. you realized she may be going through turmoil over that news. tell me about that. >> it was -- and i haven't talked about it publicly. i'm surprised you know that. how do you know that? >> i know everything, tyler. >> i called her that night, had been trying to get her all day, i tried her that night. she had donny hathaway's song blasting in the background. we talked for a while, she was really broken up about his death. i didn't know if she was thinking about herself, but i was trying desperately for me to get to go over to the house and sit with her to make sure she was okay. whitney, in true fashion, after me trying for about five, ten different times, listen, i'm a mother, i'm a woman, and i'm single, and you're not coming over my house in the middle of the night. in the way only she could. but it's beyond tragic, and i was so disgusted, i must tell you, i was so disgusted at the media and the way that they handled her death. it was -- it was so blatantly disrespectful. the paparazzis, this is what i mean about fame, even in death, trying to get just her body from the morgue to the plane -- >> you supplied the plane, didn't you? >> i did, i did. there was -- it was beyond awful. i tell you, there was -- we tried to send a hearse as a decoy. they found out we had the body in a van, and there were paparazzi 50 deep following the van. had them move the plane into the hangar, close the door, bring the van in, and one person, one of the hired drivers is trying to take pictures of them putting her body on the plane. it was just beyond disrespectful for her family and everyone else. and i understand she was a superstar, but she didn't deserve to be treated that way in the media toward the end, you know? you knew dick clark for 40, 50 years. an absolute legend of the business. put him in context, historical context, how important was dick clark, do you think? >> well, he was a pioneer. you know, in the early days of television with american bandstand, revolutionized music on television, as we pointed out earlier, talking before we went on, he had blacks and whites dance together. unheard of. a lot of young people watching would say, what, that's crazy. that was crazy then to put that on. risk taking. then he was involved in so many programs that the public didn't even know. >> here's the thing, i knew you were responsible for this show alone before i came along for 7,000 shows. dick clark, apparently, was responsible in all his guises, for 7,500 hours of television on american television. isn't that amazing? >> amazing. his longevity was amazing. so many things he touched as a producer, as a businessman, he owned a radio network, quiz shows, radio talk shows, television talk shows, he produced donny and marie, going to have donny on, produced their television show. >> if you could bottle the dick clark magic, what would you call it, what was the secret ingredient that he had? >> he was a great generalist. he could do anything. he was very, very good. you wouldn't go around quoting dick clark, you know, there's no memorable great moments, but he was kind of every man. he was there. he entered the room well. the camera liked him. he was gentle. he was kind. he was smart. he was revolutionary in music. for example, even as he aged, most people get older, you and i -- not saying you're old, we could not name the billboard top ten. >> but he could. >> he could name it. i'm sure he could have named it yesterday. next, some happier moments, big stars playing for laughs, three of my funniest guests of the year. i want you to kiss my chubby fingers the way you just did in that clip. oh, my god, this is the most erotic thing that's ever happened to me. >> you poor baby. ♪ [ male announcer ] this is karen and jeremiah. they don't know it yet, but they're gonna fall in love, get married, have a couple of kids, [ children laughing ] move to the country, and live a long, happy life together where they almost never fight about money. [ dog barks ] because right after they get married, they'll find some retirement people who are paid on salary, not commission. they'll get straightforward guidance and be able to focus on other things, like each other, which isn't rocket science. it's just common sense. from td ameritrade. in my career i've gone head to head with world leaders, ceo's and hollywood superstars. you never know what you're going to get when you sit down with a comedian. what i like about you, you're a shameless playing arist. you've taken 50 shades of gray, and you a book coming out called 50 shades of chartreuse. >> it's 50 shades of chartreuse, i'm thinking to put #this time it's personal. i just wanted to rip off the title because i thought it was a stupid book. >> did you read it? >> i read the first seven chapters and stopped. >> is there anything in there you hadn't done? >> well, actually, i'm rather conservative. i am not into s & m. >> seriously? >> i don't want to get hit in bed. if you're going to hit me, hit me out in public. >> did you read the entire trilogy? >> it's unreadable. why do women want to read this? it's one of the most badly written books i've ever read. >> why wu read that? >> i had a pure curiosity. men would never read that stuff in a million years. >> it's a phenomenon. i don't think i would profess to be any of the most scholarly writer, per say, i know my books are silly and stupid. i think they're amusing to some degree. that was so poorly written and -- it was insulting to anyone's intelligence to read that. and then my friends who suggested i would read it. i e-mailed them, you should be ashamed of yourselves for finishing this kind of book. it's a piece of trash. >> what i can't believe is the way you look. we all fell in love back in britain with fat, chubby ricky. >> i wasn't that fat. >> you were fat. you drank a lot of beer. >> you didn't tell me then. >> you just mean i look terrible before. you should have said then i would have worked out faster. i had to find out myself. i keep throwing out these trousers. >> you were a beer swelling, fish and chip eating bigger guy. >> i system do that, but i discovered working out. >> how much have you lost? >> not much at all, 25 pounds. i've done it by work out. i still eat too much, i still drink too much, but the next day i pun or myself in the gym, i work out like rocky. i feel great, it makes you feel -- >> even your teeth look gleaming. >> i haven't had them done. >> anything to them? >> i got some free -- those things in the luxury lounge once. i thought, they made me gag. >> what made you -- >> i'm fat and disgusting, and didn't clean my teeth. i had a few pournds, yeah. and the beard helps, that gives you the illusion -- i wear black, i still do that. >> what made you go on this vanity kick? >> it wasn't a vanity kick, it was a health kick. christmas i was 48, i had 11 sausages and i sat there feeling ill. the number of times i'd say, jane i'm having a heart attack. and i thought, you know what, life is good and i don't want to blow it, i don't want to go hold on, just -- what? >> it wasn't just me, because the dashing feature in men's health magazine, with this kickboxing gervais. how ricky gervais totally lost it. he went from barely employed chubby loser to losing the gut and gaining respect. >> yeah, that's good, isn't it? i'm glad i lived this long to get to comedic oture. otherwise i'd be a chubby chap who stinks and never cleans his teeth. >> one of my favorite bits of this whole album is when you get together with the doors. you performed reading rainbow. i'd like you to play out the show reading rainbow. >> this is at the doors, we're singing the theme song to reading rainbow. we're just goofing off in my writer's room, we're going li like -- ♪ ♪ butterfly in the sky i cano twice as high ♪ ♪ take a look it's in a book at reading rainbow ♪ ♪ reading rainbow ♪ i can go anywhere. i can go anywhere ♪ ♪ friends who know wait to grow and reading rainbow ♪ ♪ reading rainbow ♪ there's a monster at the
>> y'all didn't know you were going to get a show tonight, but it is friday night, so got to have some kind of a show. you know, i've found that the best time machine is music. books are a close second, and i really try to transport the reader back in time with my books, but music gets you there instantly, you know? you hear a bob dylan song, you're back in the '60s, you hear a stephen foster song, you're back in the 19th century. so let's go back in time to 19th century missouri when even during the worst of times in a civil war and later the notorious james-younger game, people had great songs and great music that they sang. .. ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ [applause] >> thank you. all right. 1876. you know, that summer, june 25th on the banks of the little big horn river, montana territory, george armstrong custer and american 200 men under his command are wiped out by lakota and cheyenne warriors. that summer, a former lawman with long flowing locks was shot in the head in deadwood, south dakota. wild bill hick come. there were swarms of locusts that covered the skies in the mid-west, and they devoured the wheat in iowa, and missouri, and the damage amounted to over $8 million by 1876. the panic of 1873 was still being felt in 1876. cost all kinds of jobs. dropped the prices of crops. many businesses failed. and the grant administration was racked with scandal so they weren't much help, either. many corrupt officials were part of the administration and congressional hearings going after various parties. there was one thing that was very exciting in the summer of 1876, and it was occurring in philadelphia. the famed centennial exposition. tens of thousands of people visited the exposition every day, and they saw all kinds of marvels and wonders, inventions, sewing machines, typewrite es, the telephone, the good good at- the good atling gun, all kind of wonders going on. there were so many people going to the exposition that there were special trains that left from all points from the west, the midwest, and you get a special ticket to take you to philadelphia. tens of thousands of people each day went through the gates and thousands going east on the railroad to visit that thing. in minnesota, a bank cashier has gone with his family to philadelphia to see the fair, and the other employees had to fill in while he was gone for a couple of weeks in september. but while all these people were going east to the fair, in missouri, there were eight men that boarded a train in st. joseph, missouri, and they were going north and weren't going to any fair. they were going have a little fun in the place of minnesota to spend a couple of weeks up there they were the notorious james younger gang. they had about their person threes to forever -- four resolvers each, and ammunition belts, and road with dusters on over their clothing. historically, a duster is meant to protect your nice clothes from the dirt of the road. there's not any paved roads in 1876. you can get pretty dusty. so the dusters were meant to protect clothing and also concealed weapons handily. now, why minnesota? the most successful outlaw band in american history, why go north? welly, july of 18 6 they had a successful haul in missouri near the small town of honorville. they had gotten $15,000 but their first big mistake came out of that robbery. and that was a new recruit. they recruited someone who wasn't really quite as trustworthy and wasn't quite as loyal, and seasoned as the rest of the gang. his name was hobbs carrie. his share of the loot was $1,200 out of the 15,000 haul. but he was pretty obvious about spending his money, and after a very short time he was down to all about $20, he lost it in the gambling halls in joplin and elsewhere, and the st. louis police were on to him and they captured him and interrogated him, and he confessed everything. not only did he confess his role in the robbery but he named all the other gang members part of the gang. he also told about where they liked to hide out. he learned quite a bit in his short time with the gang. so made it fairly hot in missouri for the jamess ands could the youngers because the detectives were on their trail. so when it was hot, they went someplace where they were least expected. minnesota was that kind of place. no one in minnesota would expect this gang to go there some they were not being hunted there. but there is also another reason to go to shouldn't that is revenge. -- to go minnesota and that is revenge. jesse james if anything is all about respring started with the civil war and always retaliation, getting back at the federalists for what they perceived had done, and someone attempted to harm jesse or his family, he was out to get them. and there was man from liberty, missouri, an attorney named samuel hardwick, and he made the mistake of assisting allen pinker ton's efforts to capture the james brothers, and hardwick set up a midnight raid in january of 1875. in the raid the pinkertons surround the house, the broke a window and toss nulled what is known now as an incendiary device. the idea was to start a fire of some kind to illuminates the interior and set the house on fire. but it exploded. didn't just set a family. the james family called it a grenade, the dent was to blow up the house. jesse and frank were not in the house as samuel hardwick believed, but the family was there, and jesse's mother was maimed for life, they had to amputate her arm right near the elbow, and even worse, jesse's half bauer, archie samuel, young boy, was killed. fatally wounded by this exploding device. once jesse learned that samuel hardwick had a role -- it wasn't hard to learn this because the news got out to the newspapers. the pinkertons cooperate keep a lid on it. it was quickly known that samuel hardwick played a role in the raid. the federal thing hardwick did was move from his farm for protection. he went about armed when he was going about his business. of a few months the pressure was too much and samuel hardwicked to flee the state, and the place he fled to was st. paul, minnesota, and it was nope he went there because he wrote letters back to the liberty paper, and jesse, if anything, was a big reader of the newspapers and quickly learned where samuel hardwick was. so to go to minnesota to hide out and the other to give jesse chance to have his revenge on samuel hardwick. so the eight men arrive in minnesota by train. they good to the twin cities and spend a couple weeks in st. paul insuring minneapolis. they have lots of money on them from the rocky robbery, so they go to the brothels and gambling halls, and in 1876 they're wide-open towns. brothels and gambling halls, and even though they were trying to keep their identities secret, the felt pretty relaxed and pretty safe in minnesota, and they did draw lots of attention to themselves by the way they talked. they had a missouri drawl or dialect, which stood out in minnesota. the way they dressed. again, they had these dusteres, wore broad brim hats. tall boots and big spurs, and that was not something you normally saw in places like st. paul minneapolis. they also committed several social faux pass. wore that are hats in the dining room in the hotel and actually drew a lot of attention to themselves but the people, although they were curious and questioned them about where they were from and who way were, they believed all the lies they told. they said, well, we're railroad surveyors, we're land speculators, we're cattlemen, and once they gave those explanations, those alibis, those characterizations, the people believed them and did not question them anymore. well, as you can imagine, just like carrie, they quickly went through their funs. spending their money free, and they started thinking about the next job, the next bank haul. and they started scouting in southern missouri. in red wing, st. peter, man cato, northfield, and looked how the town was set up. they bought minnesota maps while they were up there to figure out an escape route opposite they picked a particular location, the first place decided possible was mancato. they ride into town but there's a long crowd on the street that day, and not only a large crowd on the street in front of the bank, but they're pointing at the outlaws, pointing at them. and they're worried. they think they've been discovered. in fact earlier that day there was a man who recognized jesse james. he claimed to have been from clay county, missouri and newell the jamesss' said, hello, jess certification how are you doing? and jesse tried toying nor him and rode away but a man went into the bank and said, you better watch out because i just saw jesse james. they laughed at him. later they believed him but not then. so all these people pointed at them. they had an encounter with someone who thought he knew jesse james so they rode out and did not commit in the robbery in mancato. the reason all these people were pointing at them, they're pointing at the really nice horses they were riding. because they had spent a lot of their money on horse flexor $200 and and more apiece for these saddle mounts and it was unusual in minnesota to see someone riding a saddle horse. generally when you traveled in minnesota, you went in a buggy or you hooked up the farm nag to a wagon and drove it into town you didn't see people riding horses, especially groups of five or six or what have you. so these people not only see these beautiful horses but also was unusual. look at those guys. and enthe these dusters they wore were almost identical, all linen dusters and made them look like they were wearing uniforms to some extent. so win more than two or three were together, it was unusual and drew people's attention. so they probably could have robbed the bank 'in man condition cato but didn't. the second choice was north fieldfield, minnesota. it was appealing for a couple of reasons. one is, it was a town of 2,000 people, college town, carlton college, few years old at that time. but northfield only had one bank. mancato had three. so the logic of the outlaws, all the money must be in this one bank. what was very appealing to people like jesse james, true southern partisan and had very strong southern political beliefs, one of the investors of the northfield bank, the first national bank, was a man named delbert ames. the first commander of the 20th main during the civil war, later his successor was joshua lawrence chamber loin, now famous for his fight on little round top. but ames had become a prominent genésive war. after the war he was governor of mississippi, a carpet bag governor how they referred to them town south. he had a very turbulent administration, in in fact once the democrats grained control of the mississippi legislature they threatened impeachment, and so he resigned and went to northfield because his family operated a milling business, and there's a mill square, and the mill on mill square was jesse ames and sons and they operated that mill. today molt o'meal. so this is very appealing. let's hit a bank with lots of money any money of a carpet bagger, and jesse liked the idea of riding out of towns with thousands of dollars that belongs to this carpet bagger who fought for the north in the civil war. the date for the robbery, september 7, 1876. the gang rides into towns in twos and threes, from different directions. about 10:00 in the morning. some of the gang members actually go into the first national bank, it's right on division street. and this was a very common procedure when they robbed a bank. they would go in and ask to have a bill changed. can you change this $10 bill. this gives them an opportunity to see where the cash draws, where the safe is, how many employees are working. so they go into the bank and then these individuals leave. some go and have a meal at a local restaurant. some of the gang were seen in the saloons in town having a few drinks. and then later, about 2:00, the men start converging on the federal national bank. three men were 0 toe go into the bank and conduct the robbery two on the street, and three would hang back in mill square to protect their escape route. the three men that enter the bank are frank james, bob younger and charlie pitt. the men on the outside in the streets are miller and younger and then jesse, jim younger, and bill chadworth were sitting on their horses in mill square. almost immediately people are suspicious in other towns people were curious, in northfield there was this for boding when they saw these men. actually individuals who thought, this doesn't look like they saw the long dusts, the saddle horses, and there was one name named j. r. allen who followed the three men, frank, bob, and charlie, as they went to the bank and went inside. j.r. allen tries to get into the bank but miller had gotten off his horse and was going to close the door and he meets allen face-to-face and grabs him and says, don't you holler, and of course allen struggles, breaks free and runs down the street and he hollers and says, get your guns, boys, they're robbing the bank. it's heard all down the street. there's a young gentleman sitting in a chair across division street, young medical student. he is having a break from college. and he sees what is happening, and he immediately stands up and yells, robbery, robbery! they're robbing the bank! so the alarm has gone off within seconds the gang is trying to rob the bank. as soon as allen rounds the corner, round the block, he is yelling, the bank is being robbed there are men on the street. they hear him. almost immediately people start going for their guns. these citizens are not going to allow their bank to be robbed. they're not going to allow these guys to take their money. at this time there's no federal deposit insurance, so if the money is stolen, it's gone. they're robbing each person individually. so, there's an incentive for them to resist the robbers. and they don't know who they are aft this time. only know that someone is robbing the bank. now, where do they get their gun thursday? in minnesota people don't walk around with a six-shooter on their hip. nobody is walking around with a gun, but certain places people know where the guns are and when you buy amucks at the hardware store. just around the corner from the bank are two hardware stores, and one store, as soon as they hear the alarm and shouting, one employee starts taking guns out of the cases and laying them on the constanter with ammunition. so their grabbing shotguns and revolvers. one hardware store owner had a rifle in the window in the front of the store. he grabbed his rifle, races to the corner and they start blast away at the men in the street. at this time the three men in mill square have rid can around the corner to support the guys in the bank. so five men in the street riding back and forth shouting at towns people to get back inside and firing their guns over their head to scare them, to get them away so they can buy time for the men inside. now, you can imagine the confusion for people in northfield. everyday citizens, maybe share shopping or in the store and they see these riders going back and forth, and it does not enter their minds that something bad or horrible is happening. its just defies any kind of logic that something like this would happen in northfield. there has to be some other explanation to what is going on. now, turns out that night there was supposed to be a big show by this illusionist named professor longar, and he going to have a show, and he would have a balloon ascension that would rise up and get people to come inside and pay for the show. and so some of the first thoughts are, oh, this is to advertise the show. this is not any kind of a robbery. or a shootout. this is a great way of advertising the show. there's a den test who -- dentist on the second floor not far from the bank, and he steps on the landing and as he steps out, the robbers are yelling get back in, and they're firing towards him and stuff is popping off the building, and the jumps back' in and asked the lady and says, what's going on? oh, that's probably a wild west show. so he goes back out and gets shot at again. took a couple of times. so beyond imagination this would happen in this little town of 2,000 people, where these horrible things don't happen in northfield. so, this is going on constantly. initially the outlaws are not shooting to kill. but the towns people are shooting to kill. they're actually trying to kill these men they determined are the robbers, the bad guys, and manning with his rifle, he takes the bead on the robbers who are ducking behind their horses, and since you can't get one of the robbers, he kills one of the horses and it collapses in front of the bank. then his gun jams and he has to run back and get another round in. henry wheeler, the medical student, he remembered there was an old civil war carbine in the hotel or store or two downs. so he goes in and grabs, goes upstairs and has a perfect view down below to where the riders are going back and forth and he zeros in on clay miller, adjusting something on his saddle and he fires and sends a bullet through his artery, and miller bleeds to death on the steps. so, one man is already killed. and manning, a little later, draws a bead on one of the other riders, bill chadwell, and he shoots him dead. the seconds are ticking by and the reason why is because of a heroic employee in the bank. you remember i said the cashier went to philadelphia for the exposition in the man that took his place was the treasurer, wasn't the cashier, but that day he was the acting cashier, joseph lee heywood. the three men burst in, bunker, the teller, meets them at the window and they have three revolvers pointed at his head. at first he thinks friends are playing a joke on him. never heard of a bank robbery before? quickly he realizes these men are up to no good and very surous, and they keep yelling, who is the cashier? where is the cashier. >> host: bunker is silent. frank wilcox, another employee is silent. joy receive heywood is at the desk and says calmly, he is not in today. and he wasn't. but they all jump over the counter and keep pointing the resolvers. who is the cashier, finally they see the cashier's desk and frank james says, you're the cashiering open the safe. and he resies. often the -- resists. often people in charge of money to protect it, whether a cashier oar express agent, they would try to deceive robbers and outlaws. so heywood says it's on a time lock. you heard the story of the time lock in time locks were just coming into vogue at this time. a time lock was designed to be engaged at the end of the business day and then to be disengaged at the beginning of the business day. so no bank in its right mind would have a time lock engaged during business hours because nobody could get into the safe to conduct transactions. the gang now this. the whole reason for the time lock was to prevent outlaws to kidnap the banker in the middle of the night and force him to open the safe. there's a time lock on there. doesn't matter if you're the owner or the cashier, you can't open the safe until the clock strikes the right time. but the outlaws new this was a lie to buy time, and says, that's a lie, open the safe. and frank james actually starts to go into the vault, and haywood tries to slam the vault on him and there's a scuffle. so all this commotion and resistance is making it very deadly for the men in the street. that's why they lose two men and the other men are getting wounded with shotgun pellets. all things that are happening out there as haywood bought time inside the bank. what the gang didn't know, what frank james didn't know, had he gone bo this vault and tried the handle sheriff was -- handle the safe, it was open. there was $15,000 in that safe. instead they're rummaging around looking for the cash drawer. bob younger ends up scooping up some spare change and script, some paper money, and it's about $26 and 40 cents is all he gathers. they never get into the vault. never get into the safe. while they're struggling with haywood, bunker, the teller, papishings because he seize frank james draw his revolver and point it towards heywood, and then fires over haywood's head. bunker doesn't know this, but is it the scare haywood into opening the safe. bunker things they just murdered haywood, and bunker bolts and runs to the back door. charlie pits runs after and fires a shot hitting the blindses next to the door, and bunker burst out the back, pit pitts follows him and shoots again, the bullet goes through bunker's shoulder but the gets away. this is the confusion the robbers are dealing with. things are going wrong. anything that could go wrong did go wrong as they're trying to rob the bank. charlie runs a big knife long haywood's throat and makes a flesh wound. haywood is not cooperating and is knocked senseless. yells murder, murder, and frank james hits him with his resolver, and at this point, coal younger keeps riding up to the door of the bank and say, come out, they're shooting our men. get out. he rides up three different times, and finally been younger and charlie pitts burst out the front door and look for the horses. of course bob youngers are horse is dead. frank james is the last one to leave and out of pure meanness and pure spite and vengeance, he levels his resolver at haywood and murders him. frank wilcox witnesses this murder and then he flees through the back door himself. frank james rushes out. they're all scrambling for horses. bob younger races down the sidewalk because people are shooting from threatened corner, and cole younger said, kill that man at the corner, and they're dodging back and fortharound their stairwell, and finally bob younger starts shooting through the stairway and trying to get manning who backs off. bob younger at the corner, one more shot from the hotel, from henry wheeler, the medical student, it shatters bob younger's elbow, his gun hand. he coolly tosses the gun to his left handand keeps blasting away but as the men are riding off, he says, my god, boys, don't leave me, i'm wounded, and they pull him on the hours and they gallop out of town. it takes seven meants -- seven minutes for this to happen. and it was melee in the street. joseph lee haywood is the hero because he prevented these funds from being taken from the bank. to give you toot motivation for haywood to resist, he was also the treasurer at karlton college and knew all the money from the college was in safe. had that money been taken the college could have been ruined. so he had lots of incentives to resist. there were other heros in addition to haywood, some individuals who couldn't find guns and so they threw rocks. so they were dodging bullets and missiles coming through the air and disresulting, extracting them. another hero is a man named george bates, who is a druggist. the first thing he finds is is a shot gun. he is across the street. but can't get the shotgun to work so he tosses the shotgun aside and gets ahold of a new revolver but there's no ammunition, so he stepped into a doorway and everytime an outlaw comes close he jumps out and says, now i've got you, and this whoa distract the robber and he would blaze away at george bait bates would duck back in and wait for next robber and jump out and say, i've got you, and that was his way of disrupting the robbery. so these men ride out of up to. they're short a horse, what comes after is a two-week manhunt, very detailed in my book. the largest manhunt in u.s. history up to that time. also wall the largest gathering of inept manhunters up to that time in fairness these people were shop keepers, farmers, a few professionals. but the james-younger gang, if they were experts as anything, it was getting away. they were experts at escaping and eluding possess -- posses and the posses helped them in a few different ways. one thing that was so disappointing to read about when i was researching this, there were two professional police forces in minneapolis and st. paul, and they were immediately telegraphed, send men, send guns. we have had two men killed. not only was haywood murdered but also a local citizen, a swedish immigrant had been wounded and they needed help from the professionals. well, st. paul and minneapolis have always been highly competitive in sports, business, and it turns out very competetive when it came to chasing outlaws. they were jealous. they did not want one force to get all the glory so they refused to work together. had they worked together there's a good chance the manhunt would end sooner but they would not. and they were good spinning their lies riding to the big woods of minnesota to the west and southwest of northfield. whenever they encountered a farmer or someone on the road they would say we're looking for horse thieves. we're the posse after the outlaws. and people accepted it. people were very innocent at that time. and they saw a bunch of guys with guns, oh, yeah, if you need a horse or -- can we borrow a sad until oh, yeah, here, go get this outlaws. so they were very good at fooling people as they were escaping through the minnesota woods. the other thing that assisted them, was also a detriment in their escape, was the big woods itself. the big woods doesn't exist today in minnesota, but at that thyme was 100 miles long, 40 to 0 miles wide, very, very thick, all kinds of hardwood, underbrush not really good roads through it. no good maps, and the posses often got lost, especially the ones that weren't from around there they had pousses from all over the set. built in outlaws were getting lost as well and often they had to take captive guides to help get them flee and elude the men chasing them. near mancato, what led to the downfall of a portion of the gang is when they captured a man named thomas jefferson dunning. they wanted him to guide them around. the river was complicated and it was the edge of the big woods. thomas jefferson dung wasn't the best guide and the told stories which confused the outlaws. some were pretty obvious lies. he said he had heart problems and they knew that was probably not true. he said he was recent so he didn't know the terrain. he said his family would be looking for him because they were expecting him back. the gang has a meeting and decide we can't use this guy. hi he is no help. what do we do with them? apparently frank and jesse wanted to kell thomas jefferson dunning. the younger brothers did not. but the younger brothers prevail, and they make thomas jefferson dunning promise not to say anything. they said if you don't say anything, give us your address and we'll send you a nice gift once we get back to missouri. but if you do give us up, it doesn't matter if it's six months from now or ten years or 20 years, we will come after you. thomas jefferson dunning is let go. he goes right to his house and he doesn't report them immediately. he is really stressed about what should i do? he eventually decided to tell his boss and hope these outlaws are captured. the boss rides straight into mancato. by this team the man hospital iers had given up. the police forces from miami and st. paul were heading back home. they thought the outlaws escaped. this put new life into the maphunt and all of a sudden the minneapolis and st. paul detectives turn around and they head toward mancato and get on the trail of the outlaws, and almost capture them just outside of mancato as a place called pigeon hill, but it was the jealousies that allowed the outlaws to escape. instead of waiting for the rest of the posses, one of the police forces decided to barge ahead and grab the glory, and they made such a react, the outlaws realized they had somebody close on their tail and the left their camp fire. there was still food on the fire and some said they saw the brush still moving from the outlaws that just fled. so this rush to get glory defeated the evidents to capture the gang. after the gang got away they had a heat it argument and jesse and frank told the younger brothers and charliepit charlie pitts, we should have killed doning. and the others had such horrible wounds it was slowing them down. one had a shat shattered elbow, and jesse suggested they leave him behind and the younger brothers would not agree and they decide to split up. and as evidenced how much they were holding everybody back. jesse and frank steal horses and escape all the pousses -- all the posses ride and the younger riders make it -- there's not hero in the story. named as score sore -- oscar sorville, a teenager, and he is milking the family cow, and and his fatherrer is milking another cow. it was so muddy and wet they actually led the cows out to the road where there was more solid ground, and i should mention after the robbery was committed there were two weeks of the postal downpours any minnesota resident had seen before. it would a beautiful day on the day of robbery but the next day it started raining and the outlaws were trudging through swamps and younger said i believe there were 7,000 lakes in country and in between each lake was a marsh. it was miserable for the outlaws. so oscar and his dad are milking cows in the road. two strangers come walking down and one been says good day, and the father says good day, and as soon as they walk by, oscar, who is well aware of the man hospital i, said, dad, that's the outlaws, and the father says those were nice men. keep milking. no. no. those were -- so oscar finishes milk -- fills his pail up. sets it aside and starts following them. and his dad says you be careful. actually, as ocean scar is in the road he yells back to his dad, see how nice these men are? look at these tracks. and in the tracks were toe prints because the soles of their boots had worn off and they had tow prints in the mud. so oscar knew these guys were the outlaws. hoe followed them at a distance and saw where the tracks went into a patch of woods. and then he goes racing back and says i want to tell the neighbors what is going on, and his father again is really hesitant and reluctant. no, these are the outlaws you're going to get hurt. so, oscar gets his sister to run to the neighbor's and alert them and he starts begging his father for a horse. guy -- i got to ride into town and alert the sheriff. and the father is, no, we have work to do. but oscar won't take no for on expanse finally his father agrees him to take the farm and it's a big old overweight house, and oscar galloping into town, and the horse is exhausted and collapses, and i they go tumbling. oscar is covered with mud but gets into the town and makes it to where the sheriff is, and he says, i've spotted the robbers, some of course everybody thinks he is crazy but he tells the sheriff something that makes him believe him. he says one of men we saw had his arm in a sling, and the sheriff says those are our men. so they take off. shops are closed and they go racing to capture the outlaws. they're a horrific shootout, charlie pitts is killed. cole younger would said he had 1 11 wounds and more from these episodes. when the brothers are captured, jim younger and cole were so shot up that the doctors that treat them think they're going to die. these are mortal wounds. jim younger took a bull that went through the roof of his mouth and there's pictures and you sneak wound. cole younger's eye was swollen up. one of the most amazing things after the men are taken -- captured, and this was the biggest story in minnesota ever about the outlaw hunt. well, huge crowds come to the town to see the outlaws, and there is a shift. people are sympathetic to the outlaws. they have killed two men in northfield but these outlaws are famous, and they seem to be nice boys. they're christians, and there's one big crying jag after another as the people go through and they're talking about their childhood, and their troubles in the war and quoting the bible, cole younger said he quotes byron and people are -- they're -- bob younger, 22 years old, handsome, they bring him bouquets of flowers, and every town that these outlaws go through on their way to the jail, they're base basically celebrated. people want to shake their hands. this cult of celebrity. it's very, very incredible. even the minnesota newspapers said that, these men had it not been such a horrible thing they were doing, this is one of the most amazing feats they could last this long, and two of them, frank, and jesse, escape back to missouri. just to finish up the stories -- again, i really detail the manhunt in the book. cole younger, jim younger, and bob younger, they're charged with murder for the death of joseph lee haywood, even though none of them shot and killed him. it was frank james. they're charged with murder and likely to be convicted bay jury. but there's a peculiar law in minnesota on the books that allows them to escape the hangman and that law says that only a jury could administer the death penalty. only a jury can do that. so if you plead guilty to murder, you don't have a jury, you have a judge that decides your sentence. the judge can't give the death sentence. he can only give life imprisonment. so all three men plead guilty before a judge. there's no jury called, and they get life in prison. they spend over 24 years in prison. bob younger doesn't make it out of prison. he died from tuberculosis. cole younger felt that bob had received a wound through the lung and thought that made him susceptible. but he died in prison in the early 1900's, jim and cole are paroled. they're not allowed to leave minnesota. and you can kind of imagine guys that have never had real jobs before. it was hard finding work. after -- these are middle-aged men now. so they find jobs for them. the first job they get, they're traveling sales men selling tombstones. jim younger got a afternoon in a shop but he felt like a freak, people want to see them. jim younger suffered from depression. he wanted to marry a woman while he was in prison but he had to get permission from the governor, and that permission was denied, and jim younger commits south dakota -- commits suicide, and jim younger is pardoned, and he told he cannot come back and cannot exhibit him for profit, and he returns to missouri and lives to a ripe old page and dies in 1916 at the aim of 72. a beloved figure. frank and jesse, most of you know the story. jesse is assassinated by his own gang memberes. northfield is a direct line to that anation because once the james-younger gang is broken up, jesse doesn't have the same men. these aren't guys that will stand out in the street and take bullets while waiting on you. these men have not fought alongside you in the civil bar and were not trustworth,y, and they assays nat jesse. frank james sees the writing on the wall. jesse was very paranoid and spurns, and frank thinks if they can get to jesse, they can get to me, and he surrenders. part of the deal for his surrender he will never be sent to minnesota, and the deal is honored. when minnesota send as wreck we signifies for frank james it's denied and sent back with the excuse that frank has several charges to meet here in missouri first. but frank is never sent to minnesota and never goes there as well. frank lives to a ripe old aim as well. dies in 1915. but once cole gets out of prison -- frank and cole had always been friends and had fought together during the war and that friend shown was maintained especially since cole younger and the others would never reveal who the two men with them that i never said it was frank and jesse james. had they said that it would be a rope to get frank and have him tried in minnesota but they never gave the two men up. so right after cole gets out he goes into partnership with frank james on a wild west show. called the cole younger and frank james wild west show. i said he couldn't profit by exhibiting himself but he gets around it by lehning his name to the show and getting a personal of the profits but does not appear as the show. frank jisms would -- james would appear. there was falling out with their other partners but they remained partners until the end of their days. i guess the thing that struck me the most about this story was two things. the towns people that actually took up arms and fought this back of outlaws -- this gang of outlaws, and defended their town. and it struck me how two mean escaped third largest manhunt in u.s. history up to that time. it was incredible. it still remains incredible, and we really still don't know exactly how frank and jesse made their final leg to missouri. but the northfield raid, one of the seminole events of the gang. was born and raised here and i wanted to revisit that legend i grew up with. when i grew up, jesse was hero but i wanted to revisit the real jesse, and i thought this particular episode had not been covered as well as -- and as dramatically as it could be. so i want to end with one song and then we'll take a few questions. this song i'm going to perform is a historic ballad called, coal younger, talks about the northfield raid and also on my new c.d., called pow outlaws: songs of outlaws, russ -- rustlers rogues. i usual live do this on the banjo but i brought this 1952 gibson tenor guitar so i want to play it. thank you all very much. ♪ >> love to talk about the old west. ♪ i am a noted highwayman. cole younger is my name ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ [applause] >> thank you. >> we have the cameras in the back, and c-span is here filming for booktv so if you have a question, if you can come up to the microphone to ask it. any questions? >> i guess i was just going to -- after they captured the youngers and the two james boys escaped, when was the next sighting of them? was it months later in missouri? how long did it take them to get from when they left minnesota, back down missouri? >> the james boys were in missouri by early october, and they really were never sighted. the detectives felt like they had a lead, and they had discovered -- they had spies in jackson county, and in clay county, and in fact there was one man that they tracked to a doctor's home, near independence, and this man had a nasty wound above his knee, and that was the same place that frank was supposed to have been wounded. the st. louis employing chief sent a detective to independence to sneak around, is this our man? the detective telegraphed back, yes ex-this is frank james. they sent more men to help-surrounded the house, captured the man, drug him out of the house, took him straight st. louis, let the st. louis newspapers know they captured frank james. it wasn't frank james. his name was john gooden and he was the wrong height, the wrong hair color. the st. louis police chief did not want to give up on this man. he said he may not be frank james but i know he rode with jesse from minnesota. he is one of the robbers. well, he wasn't. he received the wound in a squirrel hunting accident. the doctor signed an affidavit saying he was being treated at his house. so he was essentially kidnapped and ended up suing the police chief for $20,000. >> so maybe a month or so when you think they left minnesota to when -- >> they, the 0 robbery is september 7th and after four weeks weeks they were back in, if not sooner, in missouri, and then they went to tennessee. >> did you ever do any research into the man who claimed to be jesse james when he was at the caverns about 30 years ago? >> his name was dalton. >> right, jay frank dalton. >> he was not jesse. >> did you do any research on that? >> i really didn't. there's lots of stories of various outlaws who supposedly weren't killed. butch cassidy was not killed. billy the kid was not killed. john wilkes booth was not killed. the thing about jesse james, the most solid evidence is that -- he suffered two wounds in the civil war to his lungs and those scars are visible in the photographs. friends and family identified him as jesse james. so, the newspaper -- i mean, there's no question that jesse was killed. but there was more than just this dalton. there will several impostors that claimed to be jesse over the year, and there were lawsuits by the james family against certain individuals who claimed to be jesse james. and these cases led to the dna examination several years ago, i guess in. the 1990s, where they exhumed jesse's body and did a dna test and the family wanted to end this once and for all, but it didn't. it's never going to end it. no matter how much evidence, people aren't going to believe it. >> also, i'm sure you visited northfield, minnesota, and the little museum they have there at the bank. >> yes. >> i was there a year ago, and it is really quite interesting. >> it's spectacular. it's been restored to 1876, the way it appeared at the time of the robberies. there's furnish, that are actually there at the time. and then every september -- i was just there a couple weeks ago -- they reenact in the raid in seven minutes time. it's called the defeat of jesse james days, and several times a day in front of thousands of people, they re-enact this and have bleachers on the other side of the street. there's no cars. and i will say this as a historian a really relish the opportunity to see people or hostback, even just as a sense of scale. you don't always get that when you're researching subjects. i was in front of the actual bank, seeing men on horseback, going through the moms, and i felt like that helicopter me -- helped me in my description of the robbery in my book to preempt its as accurately and exciting and terrifying as it was at that time. >> hi. i'm just curious about some of your background and training as a historian. >> oh, you want to know. bit? born and raised in missouri. my family took vacations every summer and we went to every fourth battle field and historic house there was... or type of instrument, i would make note of that as well. i feel, as i said earlier, the dusek is a great time machine. i really try to mimic that with my writing and make my books a ballot of sort and take you back to that time in the u.s. tory. >> i am also from missouri. i've been down highway 44 encina jesse james hideout and all that kind of stuff. so i am aware of it being kind of the sub liberty. i was taken aback he said he was the hero. as a cue to explain because i'm not sure exactly how you've been. and then movies. which one do you think most accurately portrays the northfield raid? >> okay, sure. he's not a hero to me now. he was a childhood hero. i think obviously, the qualities that made him for that i saw as heroic was the miss. i mean, he grew to become a robin hood. we put attributes on him that he did not really have. he never gave to the poor. he gave to himself. but shortly after he was killed, the song was created by robert ford is the coward. he shot just in the back. then the movies came out. and jesse has been transformed in the superman that fought the railroad. the guerrillas for the enemy. the medial bankers who were going to take the house because of the mortgage payment. that's a story you see over and over again. that's why he was a hero. there are people that look at jesse today that are out there. that was one of the reasons i wanted to revisit the subject. i want to really see the real jesse james what he was like and the gang members themselves. he's very, very different than the legend of robin hood. as far as movies, there've been several. i think the really good to bring up. several movies almost always in these movies, they show the track but the people know how to time. i think what that tells these people find it hard to believe that this hardened game of criminals can be defeated by everyday citizens, which they were. that's exactly what happened. my favorite jesse james movie is the assassination of jesse james starring brad did. it was filmed in canada. i think it best jesse james have ever seen on film. robert wagner is great. robert duval is a good jesse, but what are the best of this characterization by brad pit. >> i have two questions. number one, do any of the outlaws have been a descendent. and my question is, if you file a revolver, how have you it is not armed. >> as far as defendants, yes. they're a descendent of the james family. jesse left two children, a boy and a girl and robert frank and jamie. the younger brothers did not have any children, but they had nieces. consider tangential a guesser offshoots from the younger family that are still out there. i was actually contacted recently by a relative of the chad well and had a photograph that he wondered if bill chabrol was related and it turns out in his ancestor was a brother of bill chabrol. his name is james surgeon general. i ran into all types of people descended from the citizens that fought back but they escape to minnesota. another relative of nicholas kesterson. there's a fan of an account of the robbers before they are captured in a shootout. the thompson's family. there's a lot of descendents out there. i get lots and lots of e-mails and not lots of people with great tories about jesse and frank watering their horses at her horse trough. a good buddy of mine i grew up with has a host that belonged to jesse source. it's very nicely polished. i mean, why would she go to all an effort to polish it and make it presentable and everything. so what was the second? begun. yes, they did not carry rifles or shotguns. they did have multiple pistols. sometimes rare for revolvers to give you as much firepower as possible. they really goes back to their days as bushwhackers. these guys are way calgary. they've multiple revolvers. at that time in the civil war, each chamber had to be loaded. 1976 or kercher got and is carrying several in as much firepower as possible. the favorite weapons are the top buttons of the day. the colt action revolver in the smith & wesson was the perfect weapon for them and i'm like the colt, and had an ejector that was supposed to pop the cartridge is very quick to reload. sometimes they had both. and a couple scolds. at jesse's death via colt single action army and the smith & wesson as part of his arsenal. a bunch of revolvers. [inaudible] >> i think they probably did have a shoulder holster type assembly and also holsters on their belts as well. the dead bodies of the robbers discuss their clothing and was in their pockets and bill chabrol's pockets are stuffed with cartridges they said, which i thought was interesting because if you have a cartridge belt come you don't have to fill your pockets. they said his pockets were filled cartridges. he was ready. he was prepared. >> we were in liberty last week and they robbed a bank there and got $60,000 then they robbed other banks. all that money, did they spend it as fast as they got it? >> guest: they spent it as fast as they got it. it went through their fingers like water. they spent it quickly. jesse unearthing anything and instead. his wife and children were pretty much destitute. they had an option. auctioned a lot of furnishings in the house they were living in. he was planning another robbery at his death to replenish those funds. the robbery was in 1866. jesse probably wasn't involved in that. some of the other youngers might have been part of that. we don't know all the identities. in fact, it's really difficult to know the makeup of the games for each particular robbery until we get to that robbery in july 1876 when he named all apemen. for the first time, there's solid identification. but the game had been different before that it would be different later as well. i want to thank the st. louis county library. i want to thank c-span. i really had a great time here tonight. anyway, my next book is going to be on teddy roosevelt and the roughriders. thanks. nomar out loud for a while. [applause] >> i never expected to write an entire book on cancer until i was diagnosed at a relatively young age. i was astonished at how different i thought it was. how different was going through treatment and what i had heard about cancer and what i expect to cancer to be. and i sort of expect that it -- i expect to be to be like a well oiled machine and which care what the numbers are guaranteed, but people know about my particular cancer. but i found was something really, really different. so i couldn't help starting to write about it. we make a candle is a wireless reading device. built entirely by amazon.com for blogs, newspapers, magazines and of course books. today we have 125,000 books
>> and by contributions to your pbs station from viewers like you. thank you. asis: tower of power started . cover band they became the back bone of the driving mourn sound that came to define twoer of -- tower of power. their latest album is a double disc set called "hipper than hip." is is from the 40th anniversary cd. it's called "what is hip?" ♪ ♪ tavis: still sounding good, man. still sounding good. whatever happened to the bands with the great worn sections? >> were there that many? tavis: more than there are today. >> that's true. i guess they gave up. less music in the schools, there are fewer horn players coming out. guys want to play guitar and synthesizer. link -- ihink that think you are right about that. it is a serious indictment. what kills me is that the data is so clear on what music education does for children all the way around. not just for their tone or there is a, but the performance in the key subject areas. >> math and science, we can use some mathematicians. clearly in my children. my wife homeschools. we got them into music and immediately, all of their subjects got better. unfortunately, it means everything and one of the first things to go as the music program. -- is the music program. tavis: why did you choose to homeschool? >> we are church people. we are believers. we wanted to make sure that our .hildren were specially guided you don't get that in schools. good at it.ery i don't think it is for everybody. if you are not good, you can hire other people to help you do it. my boy, they told us he is going to struggle. in kindergarten. now he is in the engineering program at asu. my daughter is a high school student at community college. she homeschooled until she was 17. it has really paid off for us. they have a firm foundation. take me back and tell me how you started getting so proficient. >> i started out as an oboe player. i went to berkeley high school in berkeley, california. i went off to college. you know, i wanted to play r&b, rhythm and blues. you are not going to do that on the oboe. sax.tched over to lots of good tenors, but nobody played bari. i learned to play the baritone sax, self-taught. i was ready to go, i met emilio at the pleasant county fair. 4 weekend, 1968. not just being proficient, but a lot of soul. where did that come from? it is one thing to make the switch to the instrument. that is not just practice. berkeley is a very integrated town. i was fortunate. i hired the musical training to be a good musician. trained and found the doctor. soul music in the bay area, it the most popular disc jockey in the bay area. tavis: this argument cuts both ways. given that it was such a soulful town, you got sly and everyone else out there doing their thing. what gave you the courage to think that you and this band could cut into that? >> because we are a white manba? tavis: i wasn't going to go there, but some of the most soulful white folk i know are in oakland. you had to have hutzpah to believe that you were good enough to play. >> i saw it personally. there was a band in the bay area called the spiders. i saw them play, and it was like i put blinders on. wel music became my life. pattern ourselves after them and that is who we were when i met him. he was a roadie for the loading zone. we were a slick soul band. wanted to borrow the organ, they sent me over to interview me. he asked me what we were like. the spiders had just kicked the loading zone's butt. they were amazing. the spiders took it to them. said, you can use the organ. afterwards, he says that band of yours is pretty good. only one thing wrong. your horn section needs a little bottom. by the way, i play the baritone sax. tavis: just drop that in there. >> i saw this great band doing it. he came into the band and he was the first hit the that i ever and he wanted to change our lifestyle. that is what was happening at the time. we wanted to get to the fillmore and we knew that we were not going to get in there with a name like the motown's. this recording studio and this guy had put a list of potential band names on his desk. what about tower of power in e that was it. tavis: since you mentioned the fillmore, anybody who is anybody then and now still want to play the fillmore. you first got in their winning a contest? >> we auditioned. auditions were you had to get your spot a year ahead of time. right about that time, we got busted for being underage. we played clubs for years underage. the alcohol and beverage control put out a letter saying if you hire these kids, we are going to take your liquor license. by the time the audition rolls around, nothing happens with this audition, i am going back we literally played like our lives depended on it. and it all did worked out, obviously. they were not used to big horn bands. they were the usual psychedelic bands. the first thing we did was hit a james brown tune. [singing] walking out, they heard that and they made an about-face. popped out inad the back and it was bill graham. he always liked rhythm and horns. i flew to detroit the next day. if nothing happens, i'm not coming back. he was devastated. he said, you've got to come back. they dug it. who? bill graham. hock the organ and send me a ticket. [laughter] tavis: let me ask you to set your modesty aside just for a second. the me what you think contribution over these 45 years of this band tower of power has been to the business? people playingg, real music. literate lyrics, musical songs and high performance levels. all of those things, trying to serve our fans and do what we do. there were trends through the years. we thought it was disco that was our lives. tavis: blame it on disco. >> smooth jazz, whenever we deviated which we tried a few times, it never worked out for us. we stick to our guns now, and a high level of musicianship. tavis: the flip side of that lowest configuration. you tell me a lot tower of power the high point in ? we had rick stevens saying that you're still a young man. tavis: i suspect that over 45 years, this is to be expected. how does a band keep its ?ignature sound in when the times are changing, how do you keep that? the sound nucleus has to give credit to rocco. i was drawing that sound out. we had that style of play. it always sounded like tower of power. are gettingompanies frustrated saying, why can't you sound like so and so? we would try, but it always sounded like tower of power. as soon as we realize that and we have a unique way of writing and approaching the way that we put the songs together. who is in the organization, i am drawing that sound. all of your fans will agree that you are still a young man. that is the top. everybody knows one of your biggest hits. i tell myself about that every day. i am still a young man. i guess we all do that. >> when doc approached me, he said what you do to the songs we are playing is amazing. i would change the rhythm and the harmonies. what you do with these songs is amazing. own?on't we write our i was happy. we had a great band and making good soul music. i had been in this relationship with this woman that was 24. she was six years older than me. she would break up with me and come back. why do you want to be with me? go be with girls your own age and i said no, i want to be with you. tavis: we all know that story. >> why don't we write a story about an older woman telling a young guy that you are too young for me. we were listening to curtis mayfield. he had this record out called this is my country. really high. we loved it. we have to write a great trumpet intro because we had this guy nick gillette. we wrote the trumpet first. intro atback to the the end. it was really the most famous thing about that tune. it is that song. tell me about the process when a song is written. tell me about the process for laying down those horn licks. >> you get a title, you get a groove, you get a phrase, anything you can build upon. that one was inspired by the curtis mayfield tune. and the song was also inspired by cheech and chong, he was in the band and cowrote that tune. we worked with them through the years. we get inspiration from wherever it is and build upon it. songke sure that when the is done, it is up to your standards. and we give it to the boys. they add a little magic to it. we raised that one ourselves. now we have a guy that raises the horns. sometimes we have them play this line and to harmonize or whatever. tavis: tell me about "hipper than hip here co. >> it comes ." cds, live recordings that we did in long island. tookthey did was, they bands from warner bros. at the time and put them in a recording studio called ultrasonic sound. they did a simulcast on the radio station. every weekend is a different act. we were one of those weekends. a great booklet goes with it. look at this, listen to this, i got this off of the radio. i hear the band every night. you need to ok this. i will sit down and listen to these songs. it is not that i forgot, but the realization of what an aggregation it was in 1974. lenny williams was killing it, lenny pickett was astounding. chester thompson on the organ. fabric, a sole fabric that was really exceptional. it is coming out in november and we are proud of it. tavis: you mentioned a couple like james brown. i am curious, not just to influenced you, but is there a particular person or persons whose vote of approval of what you do has meant so much to you over the years? programuval was on this . we were talking about whether or not he read reviews or critics and he said, i haven't done that since i was 22 or 23. i wanted to know why. he said that marlon brando came to him one day and had seen one of his movies. he said, kid, you are good. since then, he didn't read nothing. marlon brando told me that i was a good actor and if he said that to me, i haven't had to read or listen to what nobody says. approval you have received over the years, is that all you needed to hear. we have a song called "digging on james brown." we did a show with james brown, actually several. said, i really like that james brown song. we thought maybe, we will see you in court. he liked it and that meant a lot to me. >> we headlined a weekend at the fillmore auditorium. we were having this feud with bill graham. it shows you how great he was. -- way toe best actor open up. we were really hitting it hard. we are playing and the fourth was standing in the doorway of the dressing room. aretha was wearing the tight white dress and the turbine. she is trying to get out of the way, but there were people here ri. -- here. we are nose to nose and she says, tower of power. my favorite band. i just about melted. tavis: when the queen tells you that and james brown tells you that, you don't need to hear from nobody else. hip" coming out later and you want to get your hands on this project. that is the cd and dvd. 45 years of doing this good music. that is our show for tonight. as always, keep the faith. >> for more information on today's show, visit tavis smiley at pbs.org. tavis: hi, i'm tavis smiley. join me next time for a conversation with best-selling author and lamotte. that is next time, we will see you then. >> and by contributions to your pbs station from viewers like you. thank you. >> be more. next on kqed newsroom. what will san francisco voters decide to do with a prime land overlook the bay? >> it will bring revenue and provide parking. >> job growth is up in the bay area but so are housing costs, who is being priced out and what can be done about it plus billionaire mark, the force behind salealesforce.com. >> so on your first day of work at salesforce.com we show you where the toilet is and kitchen and at noon you go out and do something for the city of san francisco
50 miles west of eureka. the center of the earthquake was four miles below the pacific ocean. this are no injuries reported but the shaking was found along the northern california coast and oregon and some felt it in the bay area and southern california. more than 16 smaller after shocks have been recorded. >> in san francisco, officers scoured the neighborhood looking for an armed carjacking suspect. police say a man walked up to someone at 12th avenue at 1:40 and demanded car keys from the victim but the victim refused so the suspect pull add gun and fire add shot in the air before running away. officers searched the area but have not been able to fine the gunman. >> a san francisco man is in jail in connection with saturday afternoon shooting of a police officer. only on abc7 news we caught the arrest of 50-year-old jeffrey ruano after he led them on a multicounty pursuit from richmond to san jose on sunday morning. he is accused of trying to hit two officers with his car on saturday. one officer shot at the vehicle and the other officer, 28-year-old, with six years on the force, suffered a non-life threatening wound to the shoulder and out of icu and is recoup operating and hat not been charged yet with the shooting of the officer. >> search teams from eight cups are scouring the gum -- gulf of thailand for a missing boeing 777 with 29 passengers on friday. terrorism has not been ruled out because two passengers bought their tickets told using stolen passports. we have the latest in a report at top of the hour. >> a warning of a possible phony water district employee after a truck was stolen. >> bizarre 9 bizarre. >> residents have no clue as to who stole the maintenance truck on thursday. the utility says it hooked like the hundreds of other maintenance vehicles in the fleet, 2008 ford s350 with $5,000 worth of tools and a badge, hard hat and safety vest. the concern is whoever stole it will pose as an employee. a spokesman for the company was interviewed. >> owe crews will not come inside unless it is prescheduled. if you feel anything suspicious call us or dial 9-1-1. >> neighbors are shaken by this saying east bay mud crews have been working in their neighborhood since october and have green to feel chestable around them. >> we had people knocking at our due so i knew they were part of the company but now it could be someone fake...we have to be cautious. >> the utility company says an employee spotted the stolen truck three miles arm at the community church but it was gone by the time the police arrived. >> the company is asking for help locating the truck and the person would stole it. 1285077 is the license plate number. if you have information call the police or east bay mud. a lawmaker is planning to introduce legislation to force electric utilities to benefit up security in order to ward off an attack. this is surveillance video of a pg&e substation in san jose where an attack knock out 17 tran follower in april. someone cut cables at a vault and snipers fired on the site for 20 minutes. a state senator wants the utilities to develop plans to tell with security breaches, restore power faster and better coordinate with local law enforcement. >> highway patrol is trying to determine the sicks behind a crash on interstate 880 in oakland that killed one person. it happened after 3:00 yesterday and one person died at the scene. another person was rushed to the hospital. c.h.p. is looking into reports that someone may have run from the scene and a viewer sent us this photo of the scene after the accident. it snarled traffic for hours with no word on the victim or the identity of either victim. >> a fallen tree is to blame for a saidly accident when a driver crashed into a tree and it fell in the right lane of westbound traffic near cherry green road accident. traffic slowed for a couple hours. >> three people in custody following a bizarre home invasion if hayward that began as a domestic disputes at a home when couple was arguing about money. the girlfriend called people to come to the house and there was a fight. the suspects drove off and caught a short distance later. >> we saw a few sprinkles and drizzle but if you leave later you may not encounter it? >> depends where you are. if you leave later you will miss it but if you leave later in the central and south you will run into it. most of it is drizzle. it could be coming down steady, moderate-to-heavy drizzle but the drops are very small so it is called drizzle. this is a very small part of the forecast but it affects a lot of us because it is hitting during the commute. through 7:00, drizzle light rain and mild at mid-to-upper 50's. dry bien -- dry by noon. not so warm as yesterday. i don't see san jose hitting 81 today like yesterday. at 7:00, we will have temperatures in the mid-50's at the coast and low-to-mid 60's around our bay and inland. it is a morning commute event. on wednesday and thursday we hit the low-to-mid 70's away from the coast. now a morning commute. >> nothing happening right now but the drizzle on the road you just mentioned. we have road work and this is between san carlos to the belmont area holly street for most of the morning. antioch area, the green cells is where the weather is affecting your roads not necessarily rain coming down now but slick roads and rank is getting out of antioch fine. we will hook at san rafael where traffic is flowing smoothly. at 3:00 this morning the roads were bone dry but at golden gate bridge thick fog and limited visibility. >> a new twist in the resignation of oakland city administrator and why she could be coming back to city hall. >> the crisis in ukraine may make the morning commute more expensive. >> a popular tech conference is sparking political controversy with calls for pulling covering dalai daly city ans gatos. >> investigators will be at the scene of a collapse at a stage at a high school in anaheim caught on cell phone. 25 students were injured during a performance on saturday night. 250 students were on stage at the stage. they are checking the permit to see if there was a weight restriction. >> foam oakland city manager santana may fault leave the city payroll and may be kept on as a paid consultant after months of applying for similar posts leaving the job and clashing with the mayor. officials offered her a package that would bar santana from talking publicly about her time at city hall but she refused to sign it. later, the city hall offered her the consultant job. she will "consider it" as long as she has in dealings with the mayor. >> the insurance program for california has a program: people are not paying premiums. roughly 15 percent of those who enrolled have not sent in their first month's payment. california enrollment closed in on a million but if people do not buy or pay up, they will be dropped along with enrollment numbers. health plans are calling and e-mailing people but thousands may end up uninsured again. >> the prime minister of ukraine is coming to walk this week to meet with president obama and vice president biden over the country's conflict with some. the kremlin beefed up military presence in crimea part of the ukraine since 1954. pro russian forces are pushing for a vote in favor of reunification in a vote scheduled on sunday. the prime minister vowed not to give up a single bit of land, of their territory, not one bit. >> in san francisco, a pro ukraine crowd gathered downtown on the plaza waving signs and asked for help. they want united states to create a plan to provide ukraine the economic stability. >> higher gas prices because of the crisis in ukraine up 22 cent a gallon jumping continue cents in two weeks per gallon. russia flows gas that flows interest ukraine that is piped to europe. nervousness sent crude oil subjecting in two weeks over fears the political tension could slow global supplies. >> we will learn about security measures for the boston marathon. local, state, and federal law enforcement will release benefited up protocols. all runners have to be registered, will not be able to carry a backpack and costumes have to be toned down in response to the deadly bum attack that killed three people, 36,000 runers and a million spectators are expected to town out for the april 2nd race. >> natural security agency whistleblower edward snowden appear at south by southwest festival in austin and the speech is upsetting some. he will speak by video conference officer somewhere in russia where he sought asylum after disclosing secrets that united states intelligence gathering operations. lawmakers including many in texas are not happy about the video appearance at festival and consider the actions illegal. >> popularity of the festival has skyrocketed sins it began as a music festival. it now incorporates him and technology drawing thousands world wide. this week, jimmy kimmel was showing off the action from texas. our reporter has the details. >> get ready, austin, the first of the cast of characters for jimmy hit the texas capital taking a spin in a go-kart as super mario. the ban is hitting the road broadcasting all week from south by southwest. the music policemen and interactive festival draws hollywood a-listers but he will be focusing on big named texans. >> this has great music artists coming to town so we will get the people would live here, hopefully willie nelson, those types. >> it is not all 9 celebrities. jimmy and the crew will be eating, drinking, and making new friends. >> people in texas are very friendly and nice with the best barbecue and like to have fun and work but they like to have a good time. >> the guest this week includes robert duval and texas governor rick perry. >> you can catch jimmy from austin this week after abc7 news at 11. >> i didn't find any precipitation until the bay bridge and then, bam, it was there. >> but mostly drizzle. mostly it is drizzle. in santa report it looks like it is rain but just clouds out there. look at the live doppler 7 hd and put it in motion it is a narrow line best chance heavy rain is going to be north of sacramento headed to lake tahoe and reno and that area. hopefully we can get a couple of inches of snow. behind the system there is dry and sinking air and that is 9 afternoon forecast with a lot of sunshine but not so warm as yesterday. in the south bay, it is mild stepping out from mid-to-upper 50's and mountain view is 61 degrees. most of us are in the mid-to-upper 50's and 63 in brentwood and a few areas are cooler, at calistoga and 56 in san francisco and for an idea of how light the precipitation is on a normal day when it is raining we cannot see anything from mount tamalpais but we can see something this morning, a sunny afternoon, building warmth for the rest of the week and we will have record warmth. it is possible this weekend as temperatures various to nearly 80 and the mid-80's. the highs today are in the upper 50's to low 60's and mid-to-upper 60's around the bay, close to average. it will be five- to ten-degrees cooler with upper 30's around napa and santa rosa and most us in the mid-to-upper 40's and palo alto at 42. here is what is happening, a weak front, falling apart as it moves to us and the bulk of the energy is to the motor and moisture stream not so deep but it is coming through at 9 right time. this was coming through in the daytime and this will evaporate and in the only it is easier to make it to the ground because the ground air is more saturated in the morning than in the afternoon. at 7:00, you can see the back edge hitting san francisco to vallejo and by 9:00, gone, by noon we are breaking out in a lot of sunshine and partly cloudy this afternoon. a stray shower, sprinkle, popping up in the higher elevation and less than .1" from this system. today is the cool of the day, two to four degrees warmer, and holding steady on saturday near 80 inland to near 80 around the bay sunday to mid-80's inland to mid-60's at the coast, from spring to summer in a couple of days. >> from antioch to pittsburg and westbound highway four the green sensors, and everyone is moving at the limit at 14 minute drive from antioch to concord and not bad. we have slick roads, you see the green cells where the roads are affected by the weather but not rain. slick roads and slow traffic from tracy up and over the altamont pass and it picks up in the dublin/pleasanton area and road work between san carlos and belmont this morning and northbound mostly today you can expect delays. at correct yes, south 680, on the curb by highway 24, everyone and moving at the limit from pleasanton hill to the walnut creek area. >> family and friends gin together in the celebration of the life of a berkeley firefighter when a tractor rolled on him, a giant american flag was draped in front of the pavilion on the berkeley campus where the celebration was held. he was a graduate of san jose state and 28-year veteran of the perk become fire department. >> a medical breakthrough holds promise of changing the lives of millions, with a new test that could determine if you are at risk of alzheimer's disease. >> new locations the a's are considering if they cannot reach a dole at uncle go one,two,one,two,one [uncle]thistwo,one.cotch,okay? [niece]okay! [uncle]okay? [niece]one,two three,four,five,six,seven,eight! [uncle laughing] okay,we go the other way,okay? [niece]one,two,three,four,five, six,seven! [uncle laughs]there's ten spaces,you want to try again? [uncle]yeah? good morning, everyone, at 4:52. you can see the pavement is wet and mike says there is drizzle. we will find out more on what is going on with the weather in a few minutes. >> a plan for a rail plan is getting underway with crews clearing brush and trees and vegetation along a stretch of right away in san rafael today. tracks for the rail transit line will be laid. sections of old track are there and will be removed. the line connects downtown san rafael to santa rosa by 2016. the work will happen between 7:00 a.m. to 7:00 p.m. amtrak has a new program for the trains that sets up residents on board. the company is looking for credittive professionals who have a passion for train travel, write, blog, or work any craft on amtrak's long distance route and each is given a private car with a deck, bed and window. we have detail on the program on our website at abc7news.com. they are waiting on the platform and it could be drizzly. >> absolutely. you can see a few snow showers developing and the big picture shows more rain and the possibility of snow showers going around and around and around i-80 through the morning. we have temperatures in the mid-to-upper 70's around san diego and los angeles and palm springs at 86 and low-to-mid 70's at sacramento and 50 in lake tahoe. no chain restrictions on the sierra freeways. from tracy to livermore and over the altamont pass, starting to bunch up on the eastern side of the pass and on the western side, livermore and dublin and castro valley is looking at 40 minutes and westbound 580, and mass transit off to a great start on monday morning with no delays and the drive times 580, we saw this part from tracy to dublin at 34 minutes and highway four is ramping up and from san rafael to san francisco looking good under 20 minutes and there is thick fog on the golden gate bridge and heavy drizzle so you need your windshield wipers and visibility is limited. >> oakland a's co-owner is weighing the possibility of a temporary baseball stadium and looking for alternate sites if he cannot extend the lease at the coliseum. that includes san jose municipal stadium and candlestick park. he hopes to stay at the coliseum. >> and a medical break you it with alzheimer's disease, researchers have developed a new blood test that detects alzheimers years before a healthy person is diagnosed with the disease. results are more than 90 percent accurate. we explain what republican -- researchers are looking for. >> they are looking for ten levels of fats and people what go on to develop alzheimers have lower levels of fats that normal. >> it will take a couple more years to develop the test and go through trials. this is the third leading cause of death in the united states behind heart disease and cancer. >> state regulation could come to the medical marijuana industry with legislation bagged by the police chief association has been introduced that regulates everything in the multimillion dollar industry for the first time from how the weed is green to doctors would write recommendations for use. doctors would need to be certified in substance abuse training. >> we are following breaking news in the east bay where separate fires have crews scrambling. >> also, we are learning more of the police officer shot in san francisco and the questions investigators are waiting to ask. >> new details in the missing malaysia airlines hearing from an american mother agonizing after her son's flight vanished. abc7 news begins with breaking news. good morning, thanks for joining us. >> we have breaking news from fremont where firefighters are dealing with a hand full of suspicious fires. two involved schools. matt? >> firefighters left the seen in the past 15 minutes and it is in the hands of arson. the damage is done. the building is a portable building that school workers say is a ymca daycare center. the building is closed because of the damage to the bottom exterior of the building. the first fire was at a shed at a little league field in warms springs elementary school used as a snack shock and damaged. a third and final fire call followed the two at schools and that is at warm springs park inside women's bathroom blocked off by firefighters, as well. firefighters are concerned this could be just the beginning
rhythm and blues. you are not going to do that on the oboe. sax.tched over to lots of good tenors, but nobody played bari. i learned to play the baritone sax, self-taught. i was ready to go, i met emilio at the pleasant county fair. 4 weekend, 1968. not just being proficient, but a lot of soul. where did that come from? it is one thing to make the switch to the instrument. that is not just practice. berkeley is a very integrated town. i was fortunate. i hired the musical training to be a good musician. trained and found the doctor. soul music in the bay area, it the most popular disc jockey in the bay area. tavis: this argument cuts both ways. given that it was such a soulful town, you got sly and everyone else out there doing their thing. what gave you the courage to think that you and this band could cut into that? >> because we are a white manba? tavis: i wasn't going to go there, but some of the most soulful white folk i know are in oakland. you had to have hutzpah to believe that you were good enough to play. >> i saw it personally. there was a band in the bay area called the spiders. i saw them play, and it was like i put blinders on. wel music became my life. pattern ourselves after them and that is who we were when i met him. he was a roadie for the loading zone. we were a slick soul band. wanted to borrow the organ, they sent me over to interview me. he asked me what we were like. the spiders had just kicked the loading zone's butt. they were amazing. the spiders took it to them. said, you can use the organ. afterwards, he says that band of yours is pretty good. only one thing wrong. your horn section needs a little bottom. by the way, i play the baritone sax. tavis: just drop that in there. >> i saw this great band doing it. he came into the band and he was the first hit the that i ever and he wanted to change our lifestyle. that is what was happening at the time. we wanted to get to the fillmore and we knew that we were not going to get in there with a name like the motown's. this recording studio and this guy had put a list of potential band names on his desk. what about tower of power in e that was it. tavis: since you mentioned the fillmore, anybody who is anybody then and now still want to play the fillmore. you first got in their winning a contest? >> we auditioned. auditions were you had to get your spot a year ahead of time. right about that time, we got busted for being underage. we played clubs for years underage. the alcohol and beverage control put out a letter saying if you hire these kids, we are going to take your liquor license. by the time the audition rolls around, nothing happens with this audition, i am going back we literally played like our lives depended on it. and it all did worked out, obviously. they were not used to big horn bands. they were the usual psychedelic bands. the first thing we did was hit a james brown tune. [singing] walking out, they heard that and they made an about-face. popped out inad the back and it was bill graham. he always liked rhythm and horns. i flew to detroit the next day. if nothing happens, i'm not coming back. he was devastated. he said, you've got to come back. they dug it. who? bill graham. hock the organ and send me a ticket. [laughter] tavis: let me ask you to set your modesty aside just for a second. the me what you think contribution over these 45 years of this band tower of power has been to the business? people playingg, real music. literate lyrics, musical songs and high performance levels. all of those things, trying to serve our fans and do what we do. there were trends through the years. we thought it was disco that was our lives. tavis: blame it on disco. >> smooth jazz, whenever we deviated which we tried a few times, it never worked out for us. we stick to our guns now, and a high level of musicianship. tavis: the flip side of that lowest configuration. you tell me a lot tower of power the high point in ? we had rick stevens saying that you're still a young man. tavis: i suspect that over 45 years, this is to be expected. how does a band keep its ?ignature sound in when the times are changing, how do you keep that? the sound nucleus has to give credit to rocco. i was drawing that sound out. we had that style of play. it always sounded like tower of power. are gettingompanies frustrated saying, why can't you sound like so and so? we would try, but it always sounded like tower of power. as soon as we realize that and we have a unique way of writing and approaching the way that we put the songs together. who is in the organization, i am drawing that sound. all of your fans will agree that you are still a young man. that is the top. everybody knows one of your biggest hits. i tell myself about that every day. i am still a young man. i guess we all do that. >> when doc approached me, he said what you do to the songs we are playing is amazing. i would change the rhythm and the harmonies. what you do with these songs is amazing. own?on't we write our i was happy. we had a great band and making good soul music. i had been in this relationship with this woman that was 24. she was six years older than me. she would break up with me and come back. why do you want to be with me? go be with girls your own age and i said no, i want to be with you. tavis: we all know that story. >> why don't we write a story about an older woman telling a young guy that you are too young for me. we were listening to curtis mayfield. he had this record out called this is my country. really high. we loved it. we have to write a great trumpet intro because we had this guy nick gillette. we wrote the trumpet first. intro atback to the the end. it was really the most famous thing about that tune. it is that song. tell me about the process when a song is written. tell me about the process for laying down those horn licks. >> you get a title, you get a groove, you get a phrase, anything you can build upon. that one was inspired by the curtis mayfield tune. and the song was also inspired by cheech and chong, he was in the band and cowrote that tune. we worked with them through the years. we get inspiration from wherever it is and build upon it. songke sure that when the is done, it is up to your standards. and we give it to the boys. they add a little magic to it. we raised that one ourselves. now we have a guy that raises the horns. sometimes we have them play this line and to harmonize or whatever. tavis: tell me about "hipper than hip here co. >> it comes ." cds, live recordings that we did in long island. tookthey did was, they bands from warner bros. at the time and put them in a recording studio called ultrasonic sound. they did a simulcast on the radio station. every weekend is a different act. we were one of those weekends. a great booklet goes with it. look at this, listen to this, i got this off of the radio. i hear the band every night. you need to ok this. i will sit down and listen to these songs. it is not that i forgot, but the realization of what an aggregation it was in 1974. lenny williams was killing it, lenny pickett was astounding. chester thompson on the organ. fabric, a sole fabric that was really exceptional. it is coming out in november and we are proud of it. tavis: you mentioned a couple like james brown. i am curious, not just to influenced you, but is there a particular person or persons whose vote of approval of what you do has meant so much to you over the years? programuval was on this . we were talking about whether or not he read reviews or critics and he said, i haven't done that since i was 22 or 23. i wanted to know why. he said that marlon brando came to him one day and had seen one of his movies. he said, kid, you are good. since then, he didn't read nothing. marlon brando told me that i was a good actor and if he said that to me, i haven't had to read or listen to what nobody says. approval you have received over the years, is that all you needed to hear. we have a song called "digging on james brown." we did a show with james brown, actually several. said, i really like that james brown song. we thought maybe, we will see you in court. he liked it and that meant a lot to me. >> we headlined a weekend at the fillmore auditorium. we were having this feud with bill graham. it shows you how great he was. -- way toe best actor open up. we were really hitting it hard. we are playing and the fourth was standing in the doorway of the dressing room. aretha was wearing the tight white dress and the turbine. she is trying to get out of the way, but there were people here ri. -- here. we are nose to nose and she says, tower of power. my favorite band. i just about melted. tavis: when the queen tells you that and james brown tells you that, you don't need to hear from nobody else. hip" coming out later and you want to get your hands on this project. that is the cd and dvd. 45 years of doing this good music. that is our show for tonight. as always, keep the faith. >> for more information on today's show, visit tavis smiley at pbs.org. tavis: hi, i'm tavis smiley. join me next time for a conversation with best-selling author and lamotte. that is next time, we will see you then. >> and by contributions to your pbs station from viewers like you. thank you. >> be more. >> there's a musical about carole king's life. what do we know about it? >> i hope it's not as much of a whitewash as the janis joplin show, which made you think that janis just had an occasional cocktail, was a really nice gal who always showed up on time. and occasionally was a little depressed. >> "theater talk" is made possible in part by... >> from new york city, this is "theater talk." i'm susan haskins. >> and i'm michael riedel of the new york post. and we're already laughing because we have a very, very funny panel that we put together. >> and we're back for a very, very funny season on broadway. exactly. we're going to take a look ahead at what is coming at us on broadway and off-broadway this fall season, with a panel of distinguished experts in the field of theater journalism. we begin with jesse green -- >> where are they? >> who has been promoted now. you are now, if i'm not mistaken, the chief drama critic for new york magazine. >> well, there's only one, so saying "chief" isn't really very significant. >> i have to ask you, jesse, though, you're known to be very, very friendly with a lot of people in the theater world. how are you going to be able to put the knife into productions of friends of yours? >> have you read the piece i did on arthur laurents? you've only talked about it every time i've been here for the last six years. >> yes, he killed poor old arthur laurents. >> and he's dead now, so i think that answers the question. >> for example, i know you're working on a book with mary rodgers. will you be able to review anything by richard rodgers? >> 'cause those guys are trying to make it. >> she hates her father. [laughter] so it's fine. >> okay. she'll encourage you in any attack on "the sound of music." well, congratulations on the new gig, jesse green. our old friend michael musto, who used to be at the village voice. are we allowed to mention that...? >> it's a pretty well known fact, yes. >> oh, you're on something else now. i got to get my notes here. >> could you be any more patronizing, you toad? my new column is "musto: the musical" on out.com. i cover theater, i cover all forms of entertainment -- just like the old column, but even better. i'm like sutton foster. you just can't stop me. i keep singing, dancing, and writing. >> you are a brand, and you are in many other publications, including the new york times. speaking of which... >> queen of the segues. >> good segue. whoa, subtle. speaking about your old friend patrick healy, excellent theater reporter for the new york times, who hasn't been around "theater talk" for a while. >> yeah, it's great to be back. thanks for calling me up. >> patrick, i want to get the sense -- you've been covering broadway now for, god, like five or six years, or even longer now. give me sort of an overall take on what is happening on broadway right now this season. i mean, what are the themes, the trends? what do you see shaping up? >> the hot shows are still from last season. and they've figured out a way with the premium price ticketing to be making a lot of money on a show like "kinky boots" and "motown." that's what's getting the people in. this fall doesn't look as bad as last fall, when we had, you know, "scandalous" and "chaplin" and things that were just petering out. but you've got, it seems like, a lot of talent coming in attached to projects that people are still investing, still putting money in. but it still seems like a lot of the excitement is from last season. not a lot of shows, musicals that are generating a lot of energy. plays, somewhat more. >> there's 12 plays. and there's only six musicals. so, each play costs less to put on than any musical. so the investments are waiting for the spring, partly because they need the big houses, which are not free. >> right. well, the play that everyone's talking about and that scott rudin, the producer, seems, michael, to have made totally critic-proof, is "betrayal," with daniel craig and rachel weisz, and a third person that no one's ever heard of before. i think the advances are going to hit like $14 million before it opens. does it matter even if it's good or bad? >> it's critic-proof, and the premium tickets are $423. you have to mortgage your house to get a good seat. and the thing is, no one's talked about rachel weisz. she happens to be an oscar winner, you know, she has a pretty good career going on. but it's all about daniel craig. and it's actually very brave of him to play a part where she's cheating with the other guy we don't know the name of. it's also brave of all three of them -- >> haskins: they're married, right? >> yes, they are married. and it's also brave of all three of them to do a play that goes backwards in time, because we remember "merrily we roll." [snores] >> oh, come on! >> it's just too much work, with the audience paying that much money, to have to then figure out, "oh, wait, but this happened already." >> but "betrayal" has been successful previously. >> but what about this thing that rudin has really pioneered, which is, stars for limited runs selling tickets at the
rhythm and blues. you are not going to do that on the oboe. sax.tched over to lots of good tenors, but nobody played bari. i learned to play the baritone sax, self-taught. i was ready to go, i met emilio at the pleasant county fair. 4 weekend, 1968. not just being proficient, but a lot of soul. where did that come from? it is one thing to make the switch to the instrument. that is not just practice. berkeley is a very integrated town. i was fortunate. i hired the musical training to be a good musician. trained and found the doctor. soul music in the bay area, it the most popular disc jockey in the bay area. tavis: this argument cuts both ways. given that it was such a soulful town, you got sly and everyone else out there doing their thing. what gave you the courage to think that you and this band could cut into that? >> because we are a white manba? tavis: i wasn't going to go there, but some of the most soulful white folk i know are in oakland. you had to have hutzpah to believe that you were good enough to play. >> i saw it personally. there was a band in the bay area called the spiders. i saw them play, and it was like i put blinders on. wel music became my life. pattern ourselves after them and that is who we were when i met him. he was a roadie for the loading zone. we were a slick soul band. wanted to borrow the organ, they sent me over to interview me. he asked me what we were like. the spiders had just kicked the loading zone's butt. they were amazing. the spiders took it to them. said, you can use the organ. afterwards, he says that band of yours is pretty good. only one thing wrong. your horn section needs a little bottom. by the way, i play the baritone sax. tavis: just drop that in there. >> i saw this great band doing it. he came into the band and he was the first hit the that i ever and he wanted to change our lifestyle. that is what was happening at the time. we wanted to get to the fillmore and we knew that we were not going to get in there with a name like the motown's. this recording studio and this guy had put a list of potential band names on his desk. what about tower of power in e that was it. tavis: since you mentioned the fillmore, anybody who is anybody then and now still want to play the fillmore. you first got in their winning a contest? >> we auditioned. auditions were you had to get your spot a year ahead of time. right about that time, we got busted for being underage. we played clubs for years underage. the alcohol and beverage control put out a letter saying if you hire these kids, we are going to take your liquor license. by the time the audition rolls around, nothing happens with this audition, i am going back we literally played like our lives depended on it. and it all did worked out, obviously. they were not used to big horn bands. they were the usual psychedelic bands. the first thing we did was hit a james brown tune. [singing] walking out, they heard that and they made an about-face. popped out inad the back and it was bill graham. he always liked rhythm and horns. i flew to detroit the next day. if nothing happens, i'm not coming back. he was devastated. he said, you've got to come back. they dug it. who? bill graham. hock the organ and send me a ticket. [laughter] tavis: let me ask you to set your modesty aside just for a second. the me what you think contribution over these 45 years of this band tower of power has been to the business? people playingg, real music. literate lyrics, musical songs and high performance levels. all of those things, trying to serve our fans and do what we do. there were trends through the years. we thought it was disco that was our lives. tavis: blame it on disco. >> smooth jazz, whenever we deviated which we tried a few times, it never worked out for us. we stick to our guns now, and a high level of musicianship. tavis: the flip side of that lowest configuration. you tell me a lot tower of power the high point in ? we had rick stevens saying that you're still a young man. tavis: i suspect that over 45 years, this is to be expected. how does a band keep its ?ignature sound in when the times are changing, how do you keep that? the sound nucleus has to give credit to rocco. i was drawing that sound out. we had that style of play. it always sounded like tower of power. are gettingompanies frustrated saying, why can't you sound like so and so? we would try, but it always sounded like tower of power. as soon as we realize that and we have a unique way of writing and approaching the way that we put the songs together. who is in the organization, i am drawing that sound. all of your fans will agree that you are still a young man. that is the top. everybody knows one of yi tell y day. i am still a young man. i guess we all do that. >> when doc approached me, he said what you do to the songs we are playing is amazing. i would change the rhythm and the harmonies. what you do with these songs is amazing. own?on't we write our i was happy. we had a great band and making good soul music. i had been in this relationship with this woman that was 24. she was six years older than me. she would break up with me and come back. why do you want to be with me? go be with girls your own age and i said no, i want to be with you. tavis: we all know that story. >> why don't we write a story about an older woman telling a young guy that you are too young for me. we were listening to curtis mayfield. he had this record out called this is my country. really high. we loved it. we have to write a great trumpet intro because we had this guy nick gillette. we wrote the trumpet first. intro atback to the the end. it was really the most famous thing about that tune. it is that song. tell me about the process when a song is written. tell me about the process for laying down those horn licks. >> you get a title, you get a groove, you get a phrase, anything you can build upon. that one was inspired by the curtis mayfield tune. and the song was also inspired by cheech and chong, he was in the band and cowrote that tune. we worked with them through the years. we get inspiration from wherever it is and build upon it. songke sure that when the is done, it is up to your standards. and we give it to the boys. they add a little magic to it. we raised that one ourselves. now we have a guy that raises the horns. sometimes we have them play this line and to harmonize or whatever. tavis: tell me about "hipper than hip here co. >> it comes ." cds, live recordings that we did in long island. tookthey did was, they bands from warner bros. at the time and put them in a recording studio called ultrasonic sound. they did a simulcast on the radio station. every weekend is a different act. we were one of those weekends. a great booklet goes with it. look at this, listen to this, i got this off of the radio. i hear the band every night. you need to ok this. i will sit down and listen to these songs. it is not that i forgot, but the realization of what an aggregation it was in 1974. lenny williams was killing it, lenny pickett was astounding. chester thompson on the organ. fabric, a sole fabric that was really exceptional. it is coming out in november and we are proud of it. tavis: you mentioned a couple like james brown. i am curious, not just to influenced you, but is there a particular person or persons whose vote of approval of what you do has meant so much to you over the years? programuval was on this . we were talking about whether or not he read reviews or critics and he said, i haven't done that since i was 22 or 23. i wanted to know why. he said that marlon brando came to him one day and had seen one of his movies. he said, kid, you are good. since then, he didn't read nothing. marlon brando told me that i was a good actor and if he said that to me, i haven't had to read or listen to what nobody says. approval you have received over the years, is that all you needed to hear. we have a song called "digging on james brown." we did a show with james brown, actually several. said, i really like that james brown song. we thought maybe, we will see you in court. he liked it and that meant a lot to me. >> we headlined a weekend at the fillmore auditorium. we were having this feud with bill graham. it shows you how great he was. -- way toe best actor open up. we were really hitting it hard. we are playing and the fourth was standing in the doorway of the dressing room. aretha was wearing the tight white dress and the turbine. she is trying to get out of the way, but there were people here ri. -- here. we are nose to nose and she says, tower of power. my favorite band. i just about melted. tavis: when the queen tells you that and james brown tells you that, you don't need to hear from nobody else. hip" coming out later and you want to get your hands on this project. that is the cd and dvd. 45 years of doing this good music. that is our show for tonight. as always, keep the faith. >> for more information on today's show, visit tavis smiley at pbs.org. tavis: hi, i'm tavis smiley. join me next time for a conversation with best-selling author and lamotte. that is next time, we will see you then. >> and by contributions to your pbs station from viewers like you. thank you. >> be more. ♪ >>miriam: hi, welcome back to hometime. today on the show, we're gonna spruce up a cozy retreat. it's a sun porch that's lacking a little bit in both design and energy efficiency. so it's out with the old sliding doors, and in with the new. out with the old ceiling texture and fan, and in with the, you get the idea. and it should be fun because we will be working with some old friends. so there will be some tips and tricks, and a ton of personality. you never know what could happen. hopefully you can stick around. come on boy. ♪ >> man. what we need is some elbow grease. >> yeah, you can... are you kidding me? >> gmc. proud to lend a helping hand to hometime. ♪ >>miriam: well we'll get started on the sunroom in a bit, but a lot of you might recognize jojo, she was with the show early on and you're back! >>jojo: i'm back, yes, that was back in the days when i didn't use readers. >>miriam: so what do you think? do you miss the glamour of the show? >>jojo: glamour. i know you know what the glamour is. the glamour is working in dusty conditions where there's no restrooms, or running water, or 100° temperatures or sometimes below zero. >>miriam: exactly! >>jojo: sure. yeah actually, it's fun, you know it is. it's fun to see how things come together and get built. >>miriam: so now we've done a few things at your house, first one was the bathrooms right? >>jojo: right. thank goodness you helped me with that bathroom, because the layout was kind of crazy, it was sort of like a merry-go-round with all the doors and entrances. so we cleaned it all up, made it more contemporary, and it still looks great. >> dean: again, when we started this project, we had a powder room and a master bath, and they were connected. that was kind of odd. >>miriam: now the powder room is separated from the master bath, creating two very distinctly different spaces. we have brand- new cabinetry in the closet and in the bathroom with some new tile throughout. it has a new bathtub that's a nice size with a nice, new showerhead. it has gorgeous glass doors and an etched glass window, which is perfect for privacy. and jojo's faux finish turned out great. then we went downstairs. you had a bedroom you wanted to make into an office. >>jojo: that's right, and that turned out just beautifully, but i remembered back in the day, it was this nice sized room, beautiful dimensions, gorgeous view, but the door leaked. the grading was all out of whack so really it turned into a kind of 2 part thing where we had to re-grade the exterior and then, that enabled us to do the interior. and , oh my gosh, i just love that space. >>mim: well now jojo is got a new paver patio. and some totally redone boulder terraces. a new glass door with ventilating sidelights and a warmly decorated space that combines the features of both the home office and a guest bedroom. i really like this desk. it's nice & curved. it feels natural and it's floating so you can put it wherever you want it in the room. and back here's a perfect little nook for the office. put your computer and printer, some drawers for files and supplies and then some cubbies up here for books and binders. >>jojo: i just love how this turned out. all this storage up here-you've got the lights so you can show off all of your lovely accessories. you could hide office equipment in here if you wanted to & certainly if you have guests this converts into a bedroom pretty darn quickly. >>miriam: look at that. >> jojo:isn't that something? >>miriam: that's just about the coolest thing i've ever seen. >> jojo: ya need a nap honey? c'mon. climb in. >>miriam: (laughing) nice. >>miriam: and the last time we were here, we did something really fun with your garage. >>jojo: that was an existing structure that had been there from the 1940's, but it had turned into rodent hotel, because there was so many gaps and crevices. so downstairs it became the harley garage, upstairs became a yoga studio. >>miriam: so the winter - we're done finally. perfect for some yoga. right? >>joanne: yes it is, several months later. >>miriam: yes >>joanne: serenity n. (laughing). when we originally conceived of this space, of course, none of the decor choices were really chosen, and so bit by bit, i've made my selections starting with the lighting and the flooring. then my sister, the designer, came in and kind of pulled it all together with the right colors and i think it's just beautiful especially all the green because green is supposed to impart peace and tranquillity. aren't you, the viewer, feeling peaceful right now? yeah, i thgh
the big winners unforgettable performances and a emotional moments. it's all in "the skinny" on this monday, june 9th. >> announcer: from abc news, this is "world news now." >> good morning to you on this monday. i'm rina ninan. >> i'm john muller. thank you for joining us. rina great to have you here. >> my cup is empty. >> we'll get on that. need coffee, stat, please. all right. let's begin with serious news. the shootings in las vegas that began with an ambush on two police officers who were on a lunch break. >> after taking their weapons, the suspects then killed one person in a wal-mart before carrying out a murder-suicide pact. police say there were hundreds of witnesses who saw the attacku here's baz >> reporter: dozens of police rs sg ve wal-mart after twun terrorize custoers al shop cen the investigators say the shooters walked in to a cici's pizzeria restaurant and killing two officers. >> i saw their guns in their hand. he told me to tell the cops it was a revolution and he killed two stops. >> the gunman crossed the street and entered a wal-mart where more gun fire erupted killing one. police say the two shooters went to the back of the store and carried out a suicide pact. both gunmen are dead. >> it's a tragic day. it's a very, very difficult day. but we still have a community to police. we still have a community to protect. >> reporter: police are still investigating. the motive for the shootings is still unclear. bazi kanani, abc news, las vegas. the other developing story we are following here is a terror attack on pakistan's busiest airport. at least 18 people have been killed in the assault on a terminal at the karachi airport. heavy gun fire and two large explosives could be heard coming from the terminal. as authorities scra secure the area, k fe under control there are new details surrounding sergeant bowe bergdahl as he recovers at rmagdahl as he recovers at he is telling investigators he was tortured by his taliban captors, beaten and held in a cage in the dark after he tried to escape. sergeant bergdahl was unaware of the heated controversy by captur fgha >> i think the department of defense needs to do a thorough investigation. obviously those soldiers are very, very concerned and upset by it. if their account is true, they you jeopardize other soldiers when youom y >> we want people to realize he is not an american hero. he didn't serve with honor and dignity and respect and he is a deserter in a time of war. >> a week after celebrating his freedom, serg bers parents arfacieats so serious the fbi has been called in. the truck driver charged in the fatal accident which also injured tracy morgan is due in injured tracy mo.gan is due in police sa rig back of morgan' tin off a deadly chacti with more here's abso benit >> reporter: tracy morgan' telling abc news the comedian is in critical condition but more responsive. he broke his leg, femur, nose and several ribs. this after getting a at the man polichage causing the accident that left the "30 rock" star and three others in criticaon. morgan's long-time riding partner dying at the scene. police officers say 35-year-old kevin roper rammed this wal-mart truck in to morgan's limo bus and later turned himself in. the driver of the limo remembering the moments before the crash. >> i'd say we were five to six miles an hour, just ste coasting. >> reporter: the new jersey turnpike is known for other accidents like this. this stretch of i-95 is known as a the black dragon. it is straight and fast and police say one of the most dangerous roads in the northeast. morgan and six others were on the way back to new york from a stand up comedy sf1 elaw we're told swero mot in t. morgan's limo lost control, spinning in two oth car . inning in two oth car >> it felt like an explosion. i remember the impact and the vehicle going by, seeing a little bit of the wal-mart truck going by. we didn't know which way was up and which way was down. >> reporter: morgamo out. >> i climbed around and heard tracy screaming for help and heard jeff screaming for help. t ofto n has been charged with four counts of assault we're told morgan had surgery on his leg but he could be here at the hospital for several weeks. gio benitez, abc news, new brunswick, new jersey. >> i can't help but wonder about the seat belts, who was wearing seat belts. the seat belts, who was wearing seat belts. sinrid i hem story and i coudnt t belts in the big party bus limo. >> if i was in the back it wouldn't occur to me to belt up. >> no. you are having a great time. >> no one knows for sure and national transportation safety board is looking to investigate this a to z. >> if wal-mart found the truck driver was responsibility wal-mart will take full responsibility. >> we wish them all a speedy recovery, we hope. a day on a virginia river turns tragic as a boat capsized. it happened near fishing pier in newport news. bystanders tossed ropes to the five people struggling to stay afloat in that rough surf. three police officers risked their lives to help. they jumped in without safety equipment. they managed to rescue three of the victims. severe storms including tornados raced across colorado's front range and the eastern plains yesterday. one adot nea country cluburo at least one inj and uprootiees ning abc's linzie jan abc's li.zie jan >> reporter: dodging disaster. in colorado, another four tordos. the twisters keep coming. nine of them in the state since friday. in aurora, colorado, a june hailstorm blanketing the ground with ice. more twisters in the south. debris sent spinning bay tornado near st. louis, missouri, as ne missouri, as a plane flies dangerously close. in northwest alabama, lightning sparking fires. the texas panhandle drenched with fears of flash flooding. and residents near roswell, new mexico, call this their spaceship, a severe type of thunderstorm known as a supercell swirling in the sky producing baseball-size hail and winds strong enough to topple this tent at an outdoor festival. >> horrible, horrible end. >> reporter: linzie janis, abc news, new york. >> incredible there. >> some pictures. here's a look at today's weather. the heavy showers and thunderstorms move east blanketing the midwest and extending to the south. some area chen.area aside from scatterd rest of the country sould aside from scatterd rest of the country sould another scorcher in the southwest with phoenix hittin 1 80s and 90s in the south. cooler in the northeast and great lakes, 70s and 80s. last time we mentioned alec baldwin on "world news now" he was fightoeon with a phot >> luckily none of that other the s alecei he was given a key the in central falls, rh central falls is the smallest city in our nation's smallest state. >> baldwin was recognized for the thousands of dollars he donated to save the library in central falls. it was also to thank baldwin for helping the high school chess team and ataend big tournament. good for him. that's the kind of publicity. >> he never gets. >> you need now and then. every time he gets in an argument i roll my eyes and go oh, gosh, what did he do this time and more i hear he has a point. >> you are crossing to the dark side, too. >> i always think that where refusing to do. ssidwhyg to do. first two jailbreaks involving inmates escaping on helicopters. a real-life drama fit for a movie script toilet bowl cleaner. ♪ >> announcer: "world news now" weather brought to you by lysol toilet bowl cleaner. ins are lef. as this dye reveals. lysol toilet bowl cleaner does more. it removes the tough stains that bleach doesn't, and it also disinfects. so why just bleach? with lysol you can do more. that's healthing. and get max cleaning and freshness with every flush. try lysol no mess max. ♪ it was a jailbreak worthy of a hollywood blockbuster. three inmates bust out of a prison in canada and evaded authorities with the help of a waiting helicopter. >> abc's mara schiavocampo has the amazing story. >> reporter: a daring prison escape in quebec. three inmates with reported ties to the hell's angels biker gang are on the run after a dramatic helicopter rescue. they are considered dangerous. >> in canada and the state. so everybody is giving a hand to find them as quickly as possible. >> reporter: officials say saturday evening a green helicopter landed in the courtyard of a quebec detention center, quickly scooping up the prisoners before flying off and heading west. much like a scene from the classic movie "break out" star charles bronson and robert duval. it is not the first hollywood-style prison break. in 2013, arkansas inmate derrick estell left the big house through a small window, just one foot tall. several weeks later, two florida inmates walked out the front door after forging release paperwork. in all cases, the inmates were recaptured, making an escape but not a getaway. in this case, all three men were in jail awaiting trial. police say the key to finding the inmates is finding the helicopter. they are working with local airports to do that. mara schiavocampo, abc news, new york. >> the three men were arrested on drug trafficking and gangsterism charges. is there really gangsterism. >> gangsterism. interesting charges. >> sounds funny. one is facing murder charges. the other two are facing murder and conspiracy to commit murder. >> serious charges. this second time in 15 months that inmates have escaped a quebec facility with the use of a chopper. isn't that crazy? >> it's nuts. they did end up catching those guys. up next, broadway's best. the tony a ♪ skinny so skinny >> skinny time. we start with the tony awards. the winners and performances that brought down the house. >> first the host to bounced in the show like literally bounced in the show. hugh jackman hopped up and down during his opening number. he is australian and so are kangaroos, maybe that explains it. he bounced in to the theater on the stage behind the stage and up again. we have no idea why he did it. it made me want to buy a pogo stick and looked like a lot of fun. >> must be in great shape. pull off a skip and bounce. an aerobic workout there. off to the awards. one of the first of the night is a history maker. audrey mcdonald won her sixth tony for "lady day at emerson's bar and grill." it put her ahead of five time winner angela lansbury. >> oh, my gosh. incredible. >> the best leading actor in a musical neil patrick harris won for his amazing performance in "hedwig and the angry inch." before the award was given, he had a chance to show the audience what it was all about. ♪ ♪ >> oh, my god. harris looking good in drag. he lost 23 pounds to get ready for the role. >> i didn't know he had 23 pounds to lose. >> i know. >> that was some performance. he is tremendous. >> tonight's best musical went to "a gentlemen's guide for love and murder" about a caper set in 1909 london that turns murder in to merriment. it topped the nominations with ten. >> best play went to "all the way" starring "breaking bad's" brian cranston. love that guy. he won the prize for leading actor for best revival of a play, "a raisin in the sun" which stars denzel washington. for best actress in a musical, jessie mueller plays the title world in beautiful, "the carole king musical." j-lo will not join pitbull for the opening ceremonies of the world cup in brazil on thursday. soccer officials there blaming production issues. it's unclear what that means. production issues. take tomorrow off because there's production issues. >> or couldn't remove the green m&ms out of the bowl. >> they already recorded the theme song released in april. it was not a hit among brazilians. since it was mainly in english and spanish and very little portuguese. next up, oscar winner sandra bullock. her publicist says she is fine and unharmed this morning. >> bullock was at home in los angeles yesterday morning when a burglar broke in to her property. someone in the home called police who eventually arrested the 39-year-old man on suspicions of residential burglary. >> the man never entered the house but he was quote checking it out. police say they are looking in to whether the suspect is a stalker. >> that's reall&-it iy. honky-tonking good time in texas over the weekend with an epic final performance from country music legend george strait. >> king george's last hurrah drew 105,000 fans to the arlington stadium where the cowboys play shattering the 1980 record set by rolling stones cowboys play shattering the 1980 record set by rolling stones the largest indoor co >> strait is 62. he was joined on stage by country music's best, martina country music's best, martina mcbride, miranda lambert, kenny chesney to name a few. the three-hour show capped 40 years on the road. 105,000 people. must have been some show. >> look at the rolling stones, they came back. >> he looks great. maybe he will co up next, a ial announcement anding for one of our own here at abc o >> we love weddings and ginger zee tied the knot over the weekend with nbc correspondent ben aaron. it was hardly a celebrity studded blow out. >> ginger and ben exchanged during an intimate beach side ceremony in michigan followed by a small reception of 55 family and friends. our best and warmest wishes to both of them. >> i love intimate weddings. >> me, o. check out the celebrity birthdays, johnny depp 51 today natalie portman 33. >> michael j. fox 53. singer matthew bellamy is 36. happy birthday to all of them. i can't believe that natalie portman 33. >> i know. amazing >> ye lysol power & free. start healthing. for healthy floors, try lysol clean & fresh. the only cleaner approved to kill germs, even when diluted. saffect over 1 million homes a year and can cost thousands of dollars to repair. thankfully, rid-x has enzymes to break down waste and time-released bacteria to reduce tank buildup. rid-x. #1 in septic maintenance. and now for rvs too! ♪ >> down to the wire last night in game two of the nba playoffs. >> the heat taking on the spurs in san antonio and boy it was a close game all the way through. in the final seconds, too close to call, but miami came up big and won by a score of 98-96. the series now tied at one game apiece. game three is tomorrow night here on abc. all right. the game no doubt thrilling miami fans, but fans of the san antonio spurs have their own way to support the team. >> his name is joe the barber. here's abc's ron claiborne. ♪ >> slam dunk. the spurs are really doing it on the court but the mvp isn't even playing. >> joe the barber. >> he is someone that can make an ordinary head look like this. that's right, 33-year-old joe -- sculpted the heads of all 12 spurs players in to one head. >> it took me eight hours to do. >> i try to be the best joe barber i can be. >> since 2007, he has been creating knockout masterpieces of the noggin. >> i'm old reliable joe. i have been doing this for years. i'm one of the pioneers of doing portrait designs. i let my numbers do the talking. i cut a lot of people and get a lot of recognition. >> how much does one of the superstars of the skull set you back? joe says on average, for 100 bucks you can get anything from an nba superstar to peyton manning to mickey mouse. >> can i do a picture of charles barkley on the back of your head eating a taco? >> no. >> i think it would be cool. >> the finest details of the portraits even coloring them in to create a stunning success. >> the barber industry when i travel, they know me as the biggest spurs fan. >> and he has his own fans, too. ron claiborne, abc news, new york. >> incredible. i want to get a rina ninan on the back of my head. >> really? you didn't do that already? >> abc logo and rina on the other. what do you think. >> i am sure it would be fantastic. >> i did it and i will shave it off so everybody can see. >> i'm sure. >> don't miss our updates on making making news in america this morning, deadly ambush. police officers are killed in a shooting spree that ends in a crowded walmart store. who's the couple accused in the attack? and what was found in their apartment overnight. under siege. gunfire and explosions ring out inside pakistan's biggest airport during a coordinated attack. the disguises militants used to get inside and the group that claimed responsibility just moments ago. road to recovery. new details about comedian tracy morgan's condition following a serious crash. his long list of injuries and the limo driver is talking about the moment morgan screamed for help. broadway's best, the winners and surprises as
>> [inaudible] beyond our capability. >> battling the ebola outbreak on the front lines of west africa. is there any hope of stopping it when so much of the world is failing to step up. we will tell you. >> caution, pointing is fun, the factor begins right now. i'm greg gut field in for bill o'reilly. thank you for watching us tonight. panic is the subject of this evening's talking points memo. on a flight from fillly to somewhere better than philly an idiot told fellow passengers that he had ebola. causing the plane to sit for hours as men in hazmat suits came to pull the creep off. what a met for for the media a sweaty entity that knows fear, gets eyeballs, after all ebola is way more interesting than the wrote toe virus which kills thousands of children daily. that goof ball on the plane got hauled away but the hysterics in the media get to stay. take joan watch who blamed thomas duncan's death on rick perry's texas. i blame that idiocy on joan walsh's brain. disease is spread by many things but hysteria is every bit as contagious and a mother pulling her kid out of school in dallas has a greater risk of getting in a car accident than him getting sick. we don't describe anybody who coughs as having ebola like symptoms. the dallas deputy who had ebola like symptoms has now tested negative as flu season arrives, ebola like symptoms will be as common as flu being-like symptoms because for the most part they lookalike. so take a breath, and remember flight 370 where 239 people disappeared. we yacked until we were blue in the face on that story. then we stopped. the moral? if you worry about ebola now, remember, something worse is coming your way. like the sex in the city sequel. and that's the memo. now for the top story tonight. the u.s. military arrives in west africa to help fight the ebola outbreak. 300 u.s. troops are now on the ground in the liberian capital of monrovia, the center of the outbreak. up to 3,000 are set to be deployed this year to help build medical centers for ebola patients. noble humanitarian campaign to be sure but will it put our troops at risk? joining us from dallas katrina of the tea party leadership fund and austin march marjorie democratic consultant and strategist. katrina, let's begin with you, should would he be sending troops to africa to deal with the ebola outbreak? >> i'm going to say absolutely not. we really don't know what we are dealing with here. we are being told on one hand by officials that this is the ebola virus. we know how to contain it, it's not that contagious. yet, we are sending the u.s. military. we don't know what strain of ebola virus we are even dealing with in africa and here in texas. >> all right. well, marjorie, my concern is, if america doesn't go, then it gets worse because, basically we are the only country who can do this kind of thing right. >> well, i think we do have some of the best healthcare systems in the country thrill and we do have incredible support even with our military goes into a lot of different humanitarian situations to aid. so i think, you know, if we can be helpful, absolutely, why wouldn't would he be? and it does have implications globally if it isn't contained. i agree with you about the hype. i think we need to keep it all in check. it's sort of a little bit reminder of the 1970s, 80s, h.i.v. outbreak. it's hard to contract ebola. not as simple as being coughed on in the airplane and absolutely any lunatic on an airplane that decides to claim they have got it could be a problem. i think we do need to keep it all in perspective and understand what it really is and be helpful in the ways qui in countries that are legally suffering. >> speaking of lunatic who made the ebola joke, he got off the plane first. that's a terrible lesson to give everyone that if you want to get off the plane first, just say you have ebola. i might try that. let me ask you katrina how do you think the media is hand lick this? for example, when someone is going to get tested that's generally a big story. when that turns out to be negative instead of being on the front page it's now on page 20 and need a magnifying glass to find it do you think that the media is being slightly irresponsible? >> oh, absolutely. there is no question. there is a lot of hype that is surrounding this case. i mean, we are still within the grace period of other candidates being identified. maybe that contracted it but the point is, and, yes, i agree there is hype. but for those of us who live right here, what's being considered ground zero, it needs to be taking very seriously considering we don't know what strain it is and we don't know who has been contacted. i mean, marjorie do you know what strain we have here in dallas county? the answer is no, there are five. we need to know which one because it makes a huge difference. >> he will with, i think, you know, one of the problems with people ginning up panic when you say don't panic other people will say well, that's easy for you to say because you are not there. but i think it's actually harder to say don't panic because people respond to panic faster and i think it feeds into a political notion as well. for example, marjorie, you are seeing this on the right and the left. on the right you have people linking ebola to president obama and here you have joan walsh linking ebola to rick perry. why do they do that? >> naturally. you know, that's hard to say. >> that's like saying president bush caused katrina. obama obviously didn't cause ebola. i think that a lot of times it's -- i do think that we as the media do create a vehicle for hype. and now, given that the media is every person in pajamas writing a blog, people want an explanation for things. they want things to talk about. why do people watch reality tv shows with crazy families that are dysfunctional it's because it's entertaining. i do agree we have to be cautious about what the scare actually does. frankly because it depletes resources we need. if we have people rushing into every emergency room in the u.s. when they get flu symptoms, we are going to have a bigger problem on our hand and those who actually need the help won't be able to get it, so. >> katrina, that's a fair point. i understand where you are there is legitimate concerns and there may be legitimate concerns coming to new york as well is it necessarily smart to conflate the horrors in africa with what might happen here when we are talking about different strains, making people scared only makes them, perhaps, make mistakes and panic. panic, you never actually follow proper hygiene when you are in panic. >> well, wouldn't it be more appropriate to be concerned and maybe a little bit panicky than just letting the man walk out of a hospital clearly displaying the symptoms of the disease? >> absolutely. >> again, the strain is really important, because, it's in if it's the restaurant strain we know through studies that strain can be carried by canines they are asymptomatic like fruit vets. they saw dogs licking his vomit up out of the street. would he should be concerned about that when you have a president who refuses to restrict travel from that area. they say both things. they say it's going to be difficult to get it here. restricting travel is not gotten to restrict it from coming here it came here because of travel. none of this really makes any sense. for the parents here in dallas county, this is just unacceptable, considering it's not just ebola we are dealing with. you mentioned the reto virus. there are things happening in texas because we have government telling us they know what's best for us and we are not going to accept that. >> marjorie, back to you. >> i would love to seat government shutdown travel and how companies and individuals would respond to that president obama is not a physician and i think blaming any administration, again, like blaming bush for katrina would be the wrong thing to do. the cdc is the physician. they are the experts and i think trusting that they are containing it, that they're observing it and that our medical professionals, which are among the best in the world are watching it is probably the way i gold. >> the other thing to end this is that i have a -- i'm having a problem with the all or nothing setup of this debate. we either shutdown travel or we don't. why can't we send health workers in and make sure they have a way out. i don'ti don't see why we have o say all or nothing. ladies, thanks. scandals, blunders and expensive parties. no, it's not a typical saturday night at my underwater mansion. it's the president's schedule. a factor analysis of mr. obama's fund raises blitz as the bad news piles up in a moment. [ male announcer ] are your joints ready for action? osteo bi-flex® with joint shield™ nurtures and helps defend your joints° so you can keep doing what you love. what'd you guys do today? the usual! the usual! [ male announcer ] osteo bi-flex, ready for action. [ male announcer ] osteo bi-flex, come on! let's hide in the attic. no. in the basement. why can't we just get in the running car? are you crazy? let's hide behind the chainsaws. smart. yeah. ok. if you're in a horror movie, you make poor decisions. it's what you do. this was a good idea. shhhh. be quiet. i'm being quiet. you're breathing on me! if you want to save fifteen percent or more on car insurance, you switch to geico. it's what you do. head for the cemetery! before we craft it into a sandwich. the amazingly tender roasted turkey -- always raised without antibiotics, the zesty cranberry mostarda, the freshly baked flatbread... but here's what you don't always see. the care and attention that goes into it. because what matters most is the simple, delicious ingredients that make up the whole delicious meal made just for you. and this is our turkey cranberry flatbread sandwich, paired perfectly with our autumn squash soup. only at panera bread. hi, are we still on for with tomorrow?n squash soup. tomorrow. quick look at the weather. nice day, beautiful tomorrow. tomorrow is full of promise. we can come back tomorrrow. and we promise to keep it that way. driven to preserve the environment, csx moves a ton of freight nearly 450 miles on one gallon of fuel. what a day. can't wait til tomorrow. the smartest or nothing. the quietest or nothing. the sleekest... ...sexiest, ...baddest, ...safest, ...tightest, ...quickest, ...harshest... ...or nothing. at mercedes-benz, we do things one way or we don't do them at all. introducing the all-new c-class. the best or nothing. i am one of your biggest fans if not the biggest. you are so handsome that i can't speak properly. sorry gwyneth you were like that before you met obama that. the presidency thrills beats running the country into the ground hire to debate it fox news contributor pete, can you blame gwyneth for swooning? she is right, the president is a hans some man yanchts opine on that one. i understand she got caught up in the moment. the problem i have, greg, is that president obama isn't listening to his generals and he seems to be listening and taking advice from gwyneth paltrow when he drew the ire of the internet just this week when she suggested that the best way to live your life was to spend half your day taking long walks and having long meals with family members and loved ones, it's very clear the president is doing just that. he is awol. i have analogy here, i think there is connection between the fundraising and the crises that are going on. if a kid is playing video games all day, his grades will suffer. but it's not the games that are at fault it's the time consuming obsession that is hurting his grades. couldn't obama's addiction to applause, which he gets through fundraising be the reason why we seeing so much bad stuff going on? >> i don't think there is really a connection there at all. the president being the president of the united states is actually the head of the democratic party as well. we have a major midterm election coming up. it's crucial to the next two years of his administration that he maintain control of the senate, and that the losses aren't too horrible in the house of representatives. and it is absolutely behooves him to be out fundraising and helping as many an democrats as he can and helping his party, because otherwise he will have his hands really tied for the last two years of his candidacy. this is a very important time for him. and i'm actually more relieved to see him doing the fundraising he is now than he did back in 2012 right after the election or even back in 2010. >> that's a good point. pete, she says it's an important time for fundraising. however, he spent 415 fundraisers in the same time frame that bush did 244. so that's almost double. so the guy would hit up a tree if he he thought had it a wallet. it hasn't -- i mean, at some point this has to have some effect on governance, right? >> it absolutely is, greg. is he on pace to nearly double what president bush and triple what president clinton did. look, president clinton was a political animal. that said, he was working even with all the other things he was doing in office, he managed to be there 18 hours a day and the country felt that he was certainly in charge. this president just simply doesn't want to be on the job. and it's not what republicans are saying. forget my side. it's what the democrats and his cabinet members are saying. look at what leon panetta and bob gates and the "the washington post" are saying about him. that he is feckless. that he lacks the desire to lead. that he is a a complainer. that's his problem. >> well, you know, jessica, let's go back to gwyneth for a moment, because i find this interesting in that i feel like she is a symbol of median entertainment in which they overlook the flaws and competence in favor of charisma and cool. she is as deep as contact lenz. that seems to be his followers, does that worry you. >> i don't know gwyneth paltrow personally. >> neither i do. >> i can't speak to how deep she is or not deep. i do look at her goop blog and stuff like that. i like it. it's one of those things where she is an american citizen. she has every right to be awe struck by a charismatic president. every president i have met no matter whether i agreed with him politically or not, i was like wow, that is really impressive person. >> true. >> there is always that sense when you meet the president of the united states. they should be charismatic. they are the president. they are the leader of the free world. and, you know, she has every right to raise money, to give her own money and to speak in favor of whatever political candidate she has. that doesn't mean i agree with her or you agree wither h i think the president has a lot of other followers. if he can raise money from people in the media, that's fantastic. he is raise money from the tech industry. just because you are actress or director or producer doesn't mean you have any less right to give money or support a political candidate, you are still an american citizen. >> you're absolutely right. you know what i love, pete, president obama had a fundraiser with a billionaire named rich richmond while he was there, he slammed billionaires. that's like criticizing obesity while spooning ronald mcdonald in a waterbed. dog dollar and the rest of the richie rich crew there as well? i imagine it might be be. look, the problem is we hired a guy. the american people hired a guy who had absolutely no experience. think about it. if he were up for a job of a publicly traded company, he wouldn't get through the hr department. being a state senator and a part-time law professor, he wouldn't even make it in the door. he wrote a best seller and he is a celeb and that's how he is guiding the country and we are paying the price right now. >> i have got to say, he won two elections. so he is doing something right. it's up to the republicans to somehow create, i don't know, an articulate persuasive dialogue that actually does better. okay. jessica, pete, thanks. next on the rundown, they are not booing him, they are looing him. lou dobbs the profit, prophet. we knew it all along. predictions about the scandals come true. he will tell us why it could impact the midterm elections and he is going to pick my lotto tickets too when the factor comes right back. out for i didn't think i'd have a heart attack. but i did. i'm mike, and i'm very much alive. now my doctor recommends a bayer aspirin regimen to help prevent another heart attack. be sure to talk to your doctor before you begin an aspirin regimen. for over 19 million people. [ mom ] with life insurance, we're not just insuring our lives... we're helping protect his. [ female announcer ] everyone has a moment when tomorrow becomes real. transamerica. transform tomorrow. in the lou's the boss segment tonight, will there be an october surprise ahead of the midterm elections? i hope it's a new pop tart flavor. lou dobbs made this prediction back at the start of the month. >> a few comments on the rising expectations of an october surprise before this year's midterms. an election in which voters are now heavily tilting toward republicans. so will there be an obama democratic october surprise? the dems definitely desperately need one but judges by previous election years don't bet a lot of money on a major news event rocking the mid terms. no, if i were a betting man, i would go with an october filled with more obama denials, stonewalling and energetic it blaming of others. and of course more deflexion and distraction. >> he nailed that one. is he like the amazing car knack. joining us now fox business network anchor lou dobbs who is also now starting some psychic hotline. lou it appears that your predictions are not only correct but super correct. how do you explain your special powers to the people at home? they are as you suggest super powers. if one see the president predictably exactly the same thing every time confronted by crisis, failure, or scandal. >> you know the interesting thing is that he is smart enough to figure out how things work. that a scandal, the administration is like one of those tennis ball machines. a scandal comes out but you don't have time to react because there is another one coming. he pops out scandals like fill that in. >> we laugh at this, but the truth is i havener seen the man more self-possessed in the face an onslot of scandals that would shame, mortify and hue humiliate a mere morality, he has created a successful stonewall that now traverses over five years of his exceedingly tentative governance. >> i can't blame him because he has the media enablers. and i hate to keep saying if it were a republican. but, let's face it, any of these scandals would have destroyed prom any if it were the irs or secret service. if it happened under president bush they would have said frat boy persona. find a way to blame it on him. >> we have to give the president credit for, this certainly. evidence has managed to keep at arm's length every one of these scandals. even when there is as the "the washington post" this week reported, direct corroborated evidence that the white house itself was involved in. >> right. >> the -- what would you call it, the cartagena hooker episode for the secret service. i avoided scandal in that case. >> now, do you think that's the october surprise? october surprise sounds like a euphemism for something else. but is there something else coming? >> i think that will be coming will be whatever it is, rationalized, excused, and apologize for in the national media by both his political allies, although they are divinged ling in number and the national liberal media this is a closed feedback loop there was a time there was accountability because of our national media that no longer is the case. because they -- and the president doesn't have to deflect or deny. the national liberal media will do it for him. >> exactly. >> they will rationalize any behavior on the part of this president. >> that is his pr arm actually. so, republicans have the opportunity to make some gains. but what worries me about the opposition is republicans is that they haven't been able to improve their persuasiveness. it's one thing to be correct. it's another thing to be persuasively correct and i wrote this down. i said liberals are fantastic at selling bad ideas. conservatives are terrible at selling good ideas. remember that, america. >> and i think that is memorable and i'm going to write it down myself as he we are doing. this the reality is that republicans still think that the answer to everything in the public arena is to say less regulation and lower taxes as if that translates to our middle class which is beset by an assault of authoritarian collective centralist government. >> well, you know, my prediction for the october surprise is, joe biden is a space alien with special healing powers. he will reveal himself in two weeks on a mountain somewhere in south america. i can't give you any more specifics, lou. >> i think that was specific enough for my needs. >> lou, thank you. plenty more ahead as the factor moves along this even. my scawch partner rosie o'donnell blaming america for the creation of isis. you won't believe how many people in the far left actually agree with that insanity. leave now and lou will throw paint on your car. [ male announcer ] tomcat bait kills up to 12 mice, faster than d-con. what will we do with all of these dead mice? tomcat presents dead mouse theatre. hey, ulfrik! hey, agnar! what's up with you? funny you ask. i'm actually here to pillage your town. [ villagers screaming ] but we went to summer camp together. summer camp is over. ♪ [ male announcer ] tomcat. [ cat meows ] [ male announcer ] engineered to kill. revolutionary by every standard. and that became our passion. to always build something better, airplanes that fly cleaner and farther on less fuel. that redefine comfort and connect the world like never before. after all, you can't turn dreams into airplanes unless your passion for innovation is nonstop. ♪ people who know me, to this day they say,tix. unless your passion for innovation is nonstop. "i never thought you would quit." you know, i really didn't either but chantix helped me do it. along with support, chantix (varenicline) is proven to help people quit smoking. it gave me the power to overcome the urge to smoke. some people had changes in behavior, thinking or mood, hostility, agitation, depressed mood and suicidal thoughts or actions while taking or after stopping chantix. if you notice any of these, stop chantix and call your doctor right away. tell your doctor about any history of mental health problems, which could get worse while taking chantix. don't take chantix if you've had a serious allergic or skin reaction to it. if you develop these, stop chantix and see your doctor right away as some can be life-threatening. tell your doctor if you have a history of heart or blood vessel problems, or if you develop new or worse symptoms. get medical help right away if you have symptoms of a heart attack or stroke. use caution when driving or operating machinery. common side effects include nausea, trouble sleeping and unusual dreams. i'm a nonsmoker; that feels amazing. ask your doctor if chantix is right for you. rav paragraph in the factor follow-up segment tonight, blaming america first. it's a favorite past time of the far left. since the u.s. war against isis began, it's become the preferred recreational activity yet again. cue left wing nut and my weekend tennis buddy, rosie o'donnell. >> one thing about isis is no american president of any party does anything to make terrorists hate us because what they hate about us is our values, our way of life. they hate our freedom. >> i have heard that on fox news a lot but i don't believe that. i think that the reason. >> do things to make them mad. >> i think we have to be responsible for our actions if saudi hijackers did what they did on 9/11 you don't invade iraq and kill innocent people in the process. >> i hate qvc. not to be outdone and incoherent and ignorant some of the brain dead co-ed's at harvard had this to say online video posted this week. >> what is a bigger threat to world peace? america or isis? >> to world peace? oh, america. >> in many ways i have to think it's america because america is making decisions that purchase more likely to effect the world. >> i don't think anyone would argue that we didn't create the problem of isis ourselves. >> we are at some level the cause of it. >> those opinions cost thousands of dollars to parents. joining us now with reaction radio talk show host mike gallagher. why does this perspective still persist no matter what decade that america is the bad guy in every instance? it's like a commandment in a cult? >> i have spent years studying liberals a little bit like jane good al studied her chimps. i'm trying to understand the liberal psyche. i really do think there is a distaste that many liberals have for the values that america stands for. think about it think about what the left hates. they don't like expressions of prayer. they don't like the second amendment. they don't like people who display flags. you think about all those values that make america great. they don't like it. i think subconsciously they don't like america. so instinctively blame the united states for everything. i mean, it shouldn't be a surprise why they continually blame america first. they don't like america very much. they just don't know it. >> yeah, but what is amazing is they love everything that america makes. >> oh, yeah. >> if you took away -- if you took away every ipod, every ipad. if you took away the natural gas, electricity, everything they condemn, they would be in a cave crying, weeping to themselves. the best joke though is that people are going into hundreds of thousands of dollars into debt. and this is what they get is an american derangement syndrome. which i just coined. our own worst enemy could not have created this in a lab that we are actually creating people who hate us. >> but the ones that are most successful seem to hate the machine that made them successful. look at gwyneth paltrow, she is wailing about what it means to have unequal pay for working moms she compares herself to working moms. michael moore blasts america flies around in gulf stream. these guys love to bash the country that mid them rich and famous. that's just mind boggling. >> i have a theory that it's a product of free time. this mentality, the liberal guilt mentality sprung up from our post war victories and riches where people now had time to enjoy themselves and based on the achievements of metropolitan and women who gave their lives. these people have the time to naval gays and say this place isn't that great. >> constructive to compare america's plight with israel's. why do people hate israel. why do people stand with israel. the same reasons that people bash israel, their values, what they represent in that part of the world i think could be employed to the united states. the values, all the expressions, the symbolism, you know, all of those things, both of these nations get criticized by the far left regularly because the left doesn't like either one of these nations. >> they are proxies for each other in the same regard that fox news is a proxy for the united states for people like rosy and for president obama when a celebrity makes a joke about fox news, what they are talking about really is about a whole part of america that they look t really even know. it's -- and actually they don't even watch fox news so they don't even know what's on it. but they say fox news as a proxy for whatever -- for the rest of america. >> many of these people have fans that they have to appeal to. rosie o'donnell, all these guys. >> she has fans? >> there is a few. but they expect these people to like them, you are right, they are insulting their own fan base without even realizing it i don't know that they ever make that connection. >> do you think "the view" rehired her because they're courting the crazy demo? the crazy demo? they call it the crazy dollar. they spent a lot of money crazy people. >> rosie o'donnell gets a lot of attention. she a very polarizing figure. i don't know, maybe they wanted to mix it up. but rosy can always be counted on. again, she a great example of hypocrisy. years ago it was revealed that she had gun toting body guards for her kids and yet she is a woman who told housewives to go get your husband's guns and turn them into the police station. it's rosy for her but not for the rest of us. reflects the reluctance to condemn isis which is what bill maher talked about maybe a couple weeks ago liberals are petrified being scared of being labeled islam phones. >> not just isis but the liberal world. i wish isis could confront the horrific way muslim world treats muslims and gays. that's down that road. bill maher did. give him credit for that. >> go picket a hotel in southern california that's owned by prince. >> don't say anything about the people get stoned or cut your heads off. >> quick reminder bill's new book, you probably haven't heard of it, it's called killing patton. it's now on sale. if you sign up to become a bill o'reilly.com premium member like i did, you get the b lg book absolutely free. i have 15,000 of them which i built a studio apartment out of and am living right now in central park. be sure to check that out up next. the u.s. leads the charge in combating the ebola virus in west africa as the crisis proves yet again how much the rest of the world needs america. the factor will be right back. ♪ [safety beeping] ♪ [safety beeping] ♪ the nissan rogue, with safety shield technologies. the only thing left to fear is your imagination. ♪ nissan. innovation that excites. watch this. sam always gives you the good news in person, bad news in email. good news -- fedex has flat rate shipping. it's called fedex one rate. and it's affordable. sounds great. [ cell phone typing ] [ typing continues ] [ whoosh ] [ cell phones buzz, chirp ] and we have to work the weekend. great. more good news -- it's friday! woo! [ male announcer ] ship a pak via fedex express saver® for as low as $7.50. today, more and more people with type 2 diabetes are learning about long-acting levemir®, an injectable insulin that can give you blood sugar control for up to 24 hours. and levemir® helps lower your a1c. levemir® is now available in flextouch® - the only prefilled insulin pen with no push-button extension. levemir® lasts 42 days without refrigeration. that's 50% longer than lantus®, which lasts 28 days. today, i'm asking about levemir® flextouch. (female announcer) levemir® is a long-acting insulin, used to control high blood sugar in adults and children with diabetes and is not recommended to treat diabetic ketoacidosis. do not use levemir® if you are allergic to any of its ingredients. the most common side effect is low blood sugar, which may cause symptoms such as sweating, shakiness, confusion, and headache. severe low blood sugar can be serious and life-threatening. ask your doctor about alcohol use, operating machinery, or driving. other possible side effects include injection site reactions. tell your doctor about all medicines you take and all of your medical conditions. check your blood sugar levels. your insulin dose should not be changed without asking your doctor. get medical help right away if you have trouble breathing, swelling of your face, tongue or throat, sweating, extreme drowsiness, dizziness, or confusion. (male announcer) today's the day to ask your doctor about levemir® flextouch. covered by nearly all health insurance and medicare plans. woman: everyone in the nicu -- all the nurses wanted to watch him when he was there 118 days. everything that you thought was important to you changes in light of having a child that needs you every moment. i wouldn't trade him for the world. who matters most to you says the most about you. at massmutual we're owned by our policyowners, and they matter most to us. if you're caring for a child with special needs, our innovative special care program offers strategies that can help. thranks for staying with us, i'm greg gutfeld in for bill o'reilly. unresolved problem segment tonight, america steps up yet again while the rest of the world sits on the sidelines for now. the united states has committed up to three quarters of a billion dollars to help combat the ebola epidemic. everyone else, not so much. things so r. so bad that the u.n. today complained about member countries not responding as swiftly and generously as they need to. and secretary of state john kerry virtually had to beg countries to get more involved this week. >> i'm here this morning to make an urgent plea to countries in the world to it step up even further. while we are making progress, we are not where we can say that we need to be. now, is the time for action, not words. and frankly, there is not a moment to waste in this effort. >> joining us now from san diego, robert young pelton filmmaker and author of the book most dangerous place. rick grenell former advisor to four u.n. ambassador to the. what is the big obstacle now in trying to contain this outbreak in africa? >> well, actually, solving this problem, greg, is going to cause more problems, because typically ebola is a rural disease, it's been around since 1976. it's self-extinguishes. now what happens when you get people in there to help medical workers, you know, outsiders, you actually run the risk of spreading the disease more. we have to be careful to understand this is a self-extinguishing disease by pouring too many diseases into it you can help spread it. >> that's a chilling thought by actually sending in people to help they could make it worse? >> well, look at the journalists my friend just came back doing a documentary, is he under quarantine and his fixer got ebola. this is what happens when you expose more and more people to contagious people or areas ebola is a contagious disease but not as bad as airborne diseases or vector born diseases. we are going to go rushing in there and find a lot of health workers, maybe even our military could be infected. you run the risk of spreading it by bringing these people back to first quality medical providers and you see the expense that it takes just to handle the cases that come back here. >> yeah. rick, should would he be relying on the u.s. government alone? what about the private sector? are we reaching out to them? we are not doing a good job of reaching out to the private sector which has all the solutions. you know we are in trouble when the u.n. is complaining about the pace of progress. that's like jimmy carter complaining about your foreign policy or something. what we need to be able to recognize is that the u.s. government and all governments, especially like the liberian government, they have a role to play in protecting their citizens. but the actual solutions are private sector based. the small companies that have these incredible solutions whether they're technology or a product. they're asked to come to the u.s. government kind of like a king. and beg the king to actually approve their product. they don't have many people. they don't know how to work the bureaucratic system. i think in a crisis like ebola, we should have the government going out and seeking out the solutions. find those small companies and say hey, does your product is, it effective? i know a company in north carolina called iet, very small company can, it has a product that can kill ebola. it should be sprayed on the planes as the planes come over. this company is too small to kind of go through the bureaucratic process of being approved as a government contractor. in a situation like, this it shouldn't happen. robert, does that make sense to you? >> well, yes, talking about long-term solutions versus people that have ebola now. and as i mentioned, it is a high mortality rate. and if you can just simply quarantine those people, they either survive or they don't survive. now, it would be wonderful to have people like z map and other people that have vac screens to ramp up productions and get over there and fix. this it pops up from eating bush meat in many countries not just the countries we are talking about in west africa. it always will reoccur as it has for the last 30 or 40 years. >> what about, robert, superstition and fear? how is that playing a role in spreading this? >> well, for example, uganda when they had the aids epidemic they assumed it was caused by condoms because there wasn't aids because there was condoms and white people telling them to wear condoms. you have a sense of what is causing. this secondly to say that you have ebola means you are thrown into almost a death ward. people are terrified of going into these medical facilities and come out of the country. so absolutely that's a big problem. >> rick, what about the african government? are they reaching out to the private sector? do they even have the capabilities? >> he they should but their first call is always the u.n. they go to the u.n. and a bunch of diplomats from the upper side of new york sit around with a policy that never gets translated back down to the grass roots. that's where actually the u.s. government could teach some of these, you know, african-american and west african governments actually how to work the issues on the ground at the airport, you know, they are not doing a very good job as we have seen journalists come back complaining that they weren't screened properly. so we can do training, but these -- it's really up to these african governments. they have to get a handle on it they need to be reaching out to the private sector who have the solutions. >> robert, why does the rest of the world fail to step up and will they start stepping up more? >> well, i would say that it's not the world's problem to fix ebola. it's a regional disease. it's caused by singular person or group of people getting infected. it's a regional problem. secondly, you can imagine the waste of resources of every country in the world suddenly engaged in this sort of, you know, measuring testing people at every airport around the world. i say let's get regional. let's get experts in that area that can help the locals manage this like i say self extinguishing epidemic. and then when it pops up again, let's have a reaction for us that can go in there and do the exact same thing. >> i just want to point out though you said earlier if people go in there is a potential for spreading more. so we have to be able to do both, right? >> no, i'm talking about a small group of people that can go in to these relatively few outbreaks. >> all right. i got to go. thanks rick and robert. we are asking you to vote in our bill o'reilly.com poll, do you believe the federal government is doing enough to protect americans from ebola? yes or no. next up, strange bed fellows janine turner and liberal teddy bear alec baldwin the former northern exposure star reveals that disturbing relationship when she enters the no spin zone in a moment. i love having a free checked bag. with my united mileageplus explorer card. i have saved $75 in checked bag fees. priority boarding is really important to us. you can just get on the plane and relax. i love to travel, no foreign transaction fees means real savings. we can go to any country and spend money the way we would in the us. when i spend money on this card i can see brazil in my future. i use the explorer card to earn miles in order to go visit my family which means a lot to me. ♪ it's a fresh approach on education-- superintendent of public instruction tom torlakson's blueprint for great schools. torlakson's blueprint outlines how investing in our schools will reduce class sizes, bring back music and art, and provide a well-rounded education. and torlakson's plan calls for more parental involvement. spending decisions about our education dollars should be made by parents and teachers, not by politicians. tell tom torlakson to keep fighting for a plan that invests in our public schools. in the back of the book segment tonight, actress and conservative actress and my ex-wife, starting a new chapter in her career, horrible pun intended, as an author in her new book "a little bit vulnerable," she dishes on her romance with the very liberal and extremely hairy alec baldwin among other things. she stopped by "the factor" last week along with her teenage daughter who also just published a book called "our president's rock." everybody's publishing books. >> so here they are, the turner people, juliet and janne. i don't know if i've ever heard of a mother-daughter having books out at the same time. juli juliet, i want to start with you. most teenage girls -- you're 16, correct? >> yes. >> they don't care about the history or country or the constitution. i'm not being supercilious here. >> what you're saying is the truth. sadly my generation is not part of the history or constitution. that's part of what got me into history. my generation is the future of our country. it's our responsibility to maintain our freedoms and know our history. and also a lot of my friends and kids my age don't want to sit down and read pages and pages of history in textbooks. so what i tried to do with my book so what you match to perfectly in your book is making history fun and interesting. >> at 16 even i can understand the history that juliet is putting out there. but when you talk to your friends, do they think you're like a nerd or weird or something? >> i've fully embraced my historically nerd ability. >> do you project that jazz? >> i have some friends do. >> they give you that, hey, i want to talk about that one dimension -- what group is that? >> one direction. >> one direction. fifth dimension. i knew it was something like that. but you don't care. you like your history. >> yes. >> you're doing your book. this is the second one and we're proud of you. >> yes. >> janne, not so proud of you. you're a troublemaker. about 20 years ago you moved from hollywood where you were a big star. >> even though mike and i have a very caring, very understanding relationship, but that doesn't mean that you and i can't be friends. >> friends, huh? >> right. >> "northern exposure" and all that stuff to texas. >> yes. >> to play with rattlesnakes and run around with scorpion. >> longhorn cattle. >> in general has that worked out for you career-wise? >> well, i think it's difficult when you're not in new york or l.a. it was definitely a sacrifice. i had worked. i just did three movies this year somehow. by daughter was born in '97. so i wanted her to be around family in the state of texas and to raise her there. there is a sacrifice there. >> but you did pay a price in your career. >> yes. >> okay. but you're still working now. you've got some movies out. >> yes. it's given me an opportunity to focus on other things. i always want to be doing something. >> you're a conservative woman, is that accurate? >> yes. >> so in addition to not being close geographically to hollywood and new york, you're politically far away from them as well. >> very much. >> has that come back and hurt you? >> well, i think it hurt me in my 20s because they were all running off to jane fonda parties and i wasn't. my dad was a west pointer. i wasn't about to go do that. i was always on the peripheral of the in-crowd. took longer probably for "northern exposure" to happen for me really. >> but when you were on the set of "northern exposure," for example, did they know you were a traditional person, not liberal? >> i think so. >> i saw you on fox & friends. they had to pay you to go on that show. you told them you were once engaged to alec baldwin. is that true? >> that is true. >> officially engaged? >> i had the wedding dress, the invitation, everything. >> really? he's insane. he lives in long island. he's nuts. did you know that? >> well, maybe a little. >> a little you knew it? he's a nice guy i think if you get him away from the politics. >> yes, yes. >> but you were really serious. you were almost going to marry him. >> i was. yes. i have the invitations addressed. >> what happened? >> well, we didn't break up because of politics though he was shocked. i called him and said i read this article about william sapphire in the "new york times" about young republicans stepping forward. and there was this long pause. you're a republican? >> can you tell us why you didn't want to get married to him? >> well, it just wasn't working out. >> you knew this wasn't going to be a long-term thing. >> but it wasn't because of the politics. but now that i look back i learned a lot from that relationship. >> and you still like him, right, as a person? >> yes. we're still friend. i ended up getting involve because of him and a 12-step program at age 23. sometimes things don't work out. >> that is an amazing fun fact for janine turner. best of luck with your books. nice to see you both. >> i was engaged to alec baldwin and you don't hear me bragging. an ugly, ugly breakup. up next, why hollywood legend robert duval isn't exactly thrilled about david letterman's upcoming retirement and his replacement stephen colbert. if you're suffering from constipation or irregularity, powders may take days to work. for gentle overnight relief, try dulcolax laxative tablets. ducolax provides gentle overnight relief, unlike miralax that can take up to 3 days. dulcolax, for relief you can count on. dulcolax, for relief you can count on. tigers, both of you. tigers? don't be modest. i see how you've been investing. setting long term goals. diversifying. dip! you got our attention. we did? of course. you're type e* well, i have been researching retirement strategies. well that's what type e*s do. welcome home. taking control of your retirement? e*trade gives you the tools and resources to get it right. are you type e*? decay. it's the opposite of evolution. the absence of improvement. and the enemy of perfection. which is why you can never stop moving forward. never stop inventing. introducing the mercedes-benz gla. a breakthrough in design, aerodynamics and engineering. because the only way to triumph over decay... is to leave it in its own dust. ♪ before we go tonight, hollywood legend robert duval is out plugging his new movie. he took a shot at letterman's successor stephen colbert. >> good luck to you. >> thank you so much. >> why are you retiring? that guy taking over is not that funny. sorry, he may be your friend. >> we have the clip. >> oh, okay. >> awesome. so what are the chances duval ever gets invited back to "the late show" again? i doubt he'll lose sleep over it. thanks for watching tonight. i'm your tiny talker gutfeld in for bill o'reilly. please always remember the spin stops here because we're looking out for you and you and you, but not you. you over there, we're not looking out for you. welcome to a "the kelly file" special. a question of leadership. over the last two weeks we have witnessed a remarkable moment in the oak of the obama presidency as the president's former cia director and defense secretary gives a series of interviews that raise serious questions about the president's foreign policy and his leadership. all this in the face of a major crisis in the middle east. democrat leon panetta in a new autobiography is suggesting the president has "lost his way." and that he "refuses to engage people, bin