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mechanic. i can tell you the hazard to the environment as far as a spill and hydrocarbon emissions from rails and trucks is much more significant to the environment. when we bring them by pipeline, they use electric motors which are much more efficient and have little to no emissions at all. with regard to permanent jobs, one of the pipelines i worked on has been there since 1928. when you have jobs, jobs will continue in the future. the number you quoted earlier is very, very low. the amount of people it takes to build the pipeline. >> we are going to live now to the cato institute for marks by the czech president of klaus -- vaclav klause. >> if the european crisis continues with no solution in sight, it is becoming clear that the problems are far more than economic. their deep, structural, constitutional -- stagnant growth, unemployment, and public's distrust that are threatening the premise of the european project. begun as a modest move toward economic liberalization among the nations of western europe after the second world war, the project has gone through several stages since then, especially after the integration of the nations in eastern europe following the collapse of communism. today, while some believe more integration is the solution, others argue the current crisis is no accident, but instead is the natural result of nike the expectations concerning the benefits of integration and centralization and a part of the world in which no one calls himself a european. we are fortunate to have with us today two experts to share their thoughts on these pressing issues. we will begin with an address by professor vaclav klaus, who two days stepped down as his post as president of the czech republic to become a senior fellow at the cato institute. we will then hear from uri dadush, senior associate and director of the international economics program at the carnegie endowment. president klaus megan wish to respond. you are invited for lunch upstairs. before i introduce him, let me note that professor klaus' new book, which i understand is a rough translation from czech, is available for sale outside at a discount, and he will be pleased to sign a copy for you, so feel free to take advantage of that. but the rest pictures today have had a lustrous careers, so i will limit myself to the highlights. but cuff cost is a hero of the revolution and an old friend of the cato institute, an economist who studied at the prague school of economics where he holds a professorship in finance. he was born in czechoslovakia under not seek occupation and grew up there under soviet -- occupation. in the communist era, he was a researcher at the institute of economics at the czechoslovakian academy of sciences, and was forced to leave for political leaders -- reasons and are 4 positions in the czech state bank. after the velvet revolution of 1989, he began his political core where as finance minister appeared at the end of 1990, he became the chairman of the civic forum. at that time the country's strongest political entity. in '91 and what he co-founded the civic democratic party and remains its chairman until december of 2002. he won a parliamentary early collections in june 1992 and became prime minister of the czech republic, overseeing the velvet divorce of the czechoslovak federation. in 1996 compared he defended his post as prime minister. after the breakup of his governing coalition he became chairman of the chair -- chamber of deputies in 1998. he was elected as the president of the czech republic in february 2003 and reelected for the second five-year term in the feb. 2008, the post for which he just stepped down to join us. we're honored to have him with us. please welcome professor of klaus -- vaclav klaus. [applause] >> thank you very much for the nice words. ladies and gentlemen, many thanks for organizing this gathering. i am glad to be here again at cato, where i have many friends. i highly appreciate the role cato institute has played in the last decades in defending freedom, free markets, and limited government. this is as was mentioned by roger a special moment for me on a thursday. my second term as president of the czech republic expired, and on friday, the new president was inaugurated in my country. he has been my long-term political rival and arch enemy, i must say. wellesz, i can assure you that he will not weaken the existing excellent czech-american relations, and ship, and our fellowship. it is for me a high degree of probability the end of my modern -- in the political positions, a career lasting without interruption from the fall of communism and the moment of the velvet revolution until last week. so i start my new life here with you today. i was extremely honored to be invited to become a distinguished senior fellow at cato and am eager to fulfill this role. this lecture is just the beginning. i was asked to say a few words about europe, and europe has always been one of my main topics. let me put the whole issue, the current european problems, into a broader perspective. more than a year ago, my book about europe mentioned already here, "european integration: without illusions," was published in the czech language, and then translated into other languages. the british publisher called a "europe: the shattering allusions," -- shattering of illusions," which was not my idea. i have never had it illusions. i am disappointed that the book is sold here at a discount. [laughter] i wish it were sold here with some additional -- because there is a value added by being here. so the british publisher called "the shattering of illusions," the german publisher said it was "europe needs freedom," which i do not mind. the book reflects my frustration with the developments in europe. discusses the european institutional arrangements, developments from the second world war to the outbreak of the eurozone debt crisis, as well as the problematic current reactions to it and the enormous costs. it also argues against the night eve an excess of -- the naive expectations of the centralizations. those benefits which have been considered as the main argument in favor of the european integration process. and the book discusses the undemocratic processes of europe. all the available evidence suggests that the economic future will not be easy for those of us living in europe together with our families, children, and grandchildren, who have been there with not only academic interest in the european future. i would like to state quite clearly that the czech republic is a part of europe, a member of the european union, and a non- member of the eurozone. i delicately differentiate these three entities. they are different. i am afraid the americans sometimes makes up -- mix up those three terms. you cannot be a member of europe -- there is no membership in europe. there is a membership in man- made organizations called the european union, and is necessary to differentiate those terms. what is relevant for my country is the fact that almost 85% of our exports go to europe to a region which undergoes economic stagnation and acute sovereign debt crisis. even at this hour, hour freely floating czech, cannot remove ourselves from the economic trends from the rest of your appeared to be able to grow, the czech republic is a textbook case of an economy, which needs a healthy economic growth of its departments, and this is regretfully not the case these days. this morning, the czech statistical office announced the figure for the gdp growth in the last quarter of 2012, the expected figure minus 0.2%. [indiscernible] the present economic situation in europe is not an accident. it is the second sweep sequence of a least two things. the second sequence of the delicately chosen and gradually -- european economic social system on the one hand, and it is a consequence of the more and more central and bureaucratically interested in european union institutional arrangements. they both form a fundamental struggle to any positive development, an obstacle which cannot be removed by marginal corrections or by eventually more rational short-term economic policies. the problems are deeper. as i said, i see the important part of the problem in the european economic and social system itself. it is more than evident that the overregulated economy additionally constrained by a heavy load of social and environmental requirements operating in a paternalistic welfare state cannot grow. this burden is too heavy and the incentives to a productive -- are too weak. europe wants to restart its economic development, it has to undertake a fundamental transformation, a systemic change, something we in central and eastern europe had to do 20 years ago, something similar. the other part of the problem is the european integration model, the excessive and unnatural centralization, harmonization, standardization, and unification of the european continent based on the concept of an ever-closer union is another obstacle. a few days ago i listened to the speech given by the italian minister of the economy, and he made a point that to build such an integration was a necessity. i raised my hand, and asked, what you mean, such an integration of the current form of european integration is an historical accident. it could have many developments, many of variants, and i am sure this one is the wrong one. these complex issues deserve to be discussed from many perspectives, but it is evident they found their climax in the attempt to monetary unify the whole continent. this was the moment, to use the ogy, when the marginal costs exceeded their benefits. this evidence failure -- and it is appropriate to call it a failure -- was inevitable, byected, and well understood many of us in advance. its consequences, especially for economically weaker european countries, her which are used to go unpleasant and unavoidable adjustment bringing devaluations of its curtsies come up repeatedly in the past hough were well known in advance as well. all of economists are well aware that the fact that these and some other countries were doomed to fail, having been imprisoned in such a system. history gives us many examples. the face of argentina is not forgotten, and it was easier to solve it because the currency board is weaker and more easily dissolveable. the benefits of accepting the current currency never arrives. he assumed increase in international trade and in financial transactions was relatively small and was more than offset by the costs of this arrangement. in it could weather, and an economic sense, even the norm of currency areas can function as all kinds of fixed exchange rate regimes did for some time. when bad weather comes, it is a financial crisis, and at the end of the last decade, evident in the monetary union sees as to properly function. this cannot be considered a surprise. in the past, all fixed exchange rate regimes needed the exchange rates realignments sooner or later, which is another argument founded in every economic textbook. the expectations, better to say, wishes or dreams, that a very homogeneous european heterogeneous economy would be made homogeneous by the use of monetary unification have proved to be wrong. the european economies have diverged, not converged, since the introduction of the euro. the elimination of one of the most important economic variables of the exchange rate, from the existing economic system, easterly certain blindness upper politicians, economists, blind -- bankers, and economic agents. i have a personal experience in this respect. some of you remember that 20 years ago there was a dissolution of another monetary, political, and fiscal union called czechoslovakia, and i was organizing the split of czechoslovakia, at at the beginning of this year, we in the czech republic remembered the 20th anniversary of the monetary disintegration of czechoslovakia. our experience is quite clear. we were together for 70 years, but we had to accept that the institutional integration or nominal integration was not sufficient for the elimination of economic differences of both countries. there were of course other reasons for the split of the former czechoslovak federation, but the economic ones were very important. as the last minister of federal finance, i know something about it. some people in europe did not want to look at it seriously. at the recent do you-asia summit in -- eu-asia summit in laso, i found that -- in laos, i found that disappointing when a minister said, we were not warned in advance about the possible consequences of the european common currency. this is a statement he was telling the presidents and prime ministers of asian countries, another irony. i must say everyone was warned. some people just did not listen. misled.t be when discussing the kurt european problems, it is wrong to concentrate on the failures of individual the european countries, on greece or any other country in the european --. greece did not bring about the current european problems. crease on the contrary is the victim of the eurozone system of one currency. the system is the problem, not crgreece. greece made one tragic error, to enter the euros zone. everything else was the usual behavior of greece, which i and others did not have the right to criticize. degree of economic efficiency or inefficiency was and should have been well known to anyone. letting greece leave the eurozone in an organized, well- prepared way -- and we have some experience with letting slovakia leave our czechoslovak federation -- and lett greece leaving the eurozone would be the beginning of this country going to a healthy economic future. i have no ambitions to change greece. i want to change the e.u. institutional arrangements, a different project. the greeks hopefully already understand that one size does not fit all, and i only wish the same would be of the spend by thee.u. politicians. i did not see it, however. that way of thinking is based on an almost communist type of reasoning. economic laws do not exist. that was the standard thinking and mindset in the communist era. people like me were raised in an era when such a motive thinking was dominant in the communist countries of central and eastern europe. some of us dared to address our disagreement in the past. we were considered enemies then. we are considered enemies now again. europe is ripe for fundamental decision. should we continue believing in the dog my that politics can dictate economics -- that dogman can dictate economics and support other similar our arrangements and whenever costs, or should we finally accept that we have to return to economic rationality? the answer to such a question, given by the overwhelming majority of european politicians until now, has been the yes, we should continue. it is our task to tell them that the consequences of such a policy will be higher and higher costs for all of us. at one moment, these costs will become intolerable and unbearable. i'm convinced they should say no. aside remark -- as a site where mark, i am afraid the u.s. administration and the u.s. think tanks do not sense that -- send european politicians such a clear message. what we need are not more frequent summits in brussels. but a fundamental transformation of our thinking and of our behavior. europe has to undertake systemic change, a paradigm shift. coming to a decision means a genuine political process, not the approval of a sophisticated -- behind closed doors. the solution must arise as an outcome of political debates in individual e.u. member countries. it must be generated by the people, by the -- in these countries. there is no -- in europe. at this session here and in europe, and now to speak about the crisis, but crisis in a definition and -- belongs to my country, because he was born in southern moravia, so in his definition, crisis is a process of creative destruction. not everything can be saved and maintain. something must be destroyed or left behind in this process, especially the wrong ideas. we should get rid of european dreams come out of irrational economic imperatives, and of their promotion by european governments. part of this implies that even some states must be left to fall. the opponents of such positions keep saying that such a solution would be costly. i see differently. the problem -- promulgation of the current muddling through is more costly. the cost that europeans afraid of are already there. they should be they-- cost. ladies and gentleman, this is my message today, more about the same issue can be found in my books sold at a discount here. [laughter] nevertheless, i think it is more clearly defined there. thank you very much for your attention. [applause] >> thank you very much, president klaus. here we try to bring a variety of views on a given issue, and it is in that spirit that we are going to hear now from dr. uri dadush, who just arrived last night from rome. president klausgoklau arrived from prague. dr. dadush is currently tracking changes in the eurozone crisis. he earned a master's degree at hebrew university in jerusalem. before joining carnegie, he experienced -- his experience was in the public and private sectors about where he led some business turnaround situations. he was president of the business international part of the economists group. he was vice president for global inside, and a consultant with mckinsey in europe. in the public sector he served as the world bank's director of international trade and director of economic policy. he also serves concern currently has the director of the world bank's economy, leading the preparation of the flagship reports on the international economy for over 11 years. he is the author isfour recent books, including, "inequality in america,." please welcome dr. uri dadush. [applause] >> good morning, ladies and gentlemen. good afternoon, and thank you very much for the invitation. it is a great honor, but unfortunately, a difficult act to follow. presentation.s' i am going to make four points, and let me tell you what they are, and then i will develop them. first of all, i share president klaus' view that the euro crisis is far from over and that at the past many years of slow growth and high employment by head for the european union. second, i do not believe that the disassembly of the euro is a rational response to the crisis, given the cost. third, the workings of the u.s. monetary union in dealing with a similar shop although fall from -- far from perfect, but the way for europe. fourth and last with the u.s. example in mind, eurozone needs to accelerate reforms, designed both to deal with the current crisis and avoid future ones. so i am taking a different position from president klaus, as is evident from my points, although actually there is more similarity in thought that approach than is suggested by these points. let me elaborate. first point, the crisis is far from over. let me confess i'm a french economist. nobody is perfect. [laughter] let me also say formerly i supported the creation of the euro. when i was running a business in europe and trying to tackle 20- plus currencies, it seemed to me a smart move. i was misled, like many others, but i long time of moderate growth and low inflation that characterized the first 10 years of a single currency. but as president klaus writes in his refreshen and iconoclastic book, and as he repeated the day, in good weather, even the non optimal currency it can even function, but when the bad weather comes, all the weaknesses become evidence and the monetary union ceases to properly function. like many others, i have now realized that the conditions for european monetary union were absent and now believe that proceeding with european monetary union was premature. it may have come 20 years too early, or perhaps even longer. i spent the last few days in italy, which is reeling from the totally inconclusive result of its collections and where the economic situation is dire and is even worse in spain and greece. i also believe that political tensions may escalate to the point where one or more countries leaves european monetary union. the risk of collapse has not gone away, despite a promise. the political platform on which his promise is based may be swept away from under his feet. let me go to the second point. however, despite all that, the disassembly of the euros zone is not a rational course of action. from the perspective of the european community, helping greece leave the euro and default in an orderly fashion may be a viable option and it may be the best course for greece. i do not disagree with that. however, doing so for italy and spain, much larger economies, is another proposition altogether. the inevitable sovereignty faults that would follow would be huge. and outside breakup of the euro and a disorderly one would follow, and it would be a calamity for europe and the world, another shock without the monetary and fiscal tools to respond. likely leading to a global banking crisis and a repeat of the great depression we have so far avoided. therefore, in my view, the answer lies in how to make the euro work better. at least we should give it our best shot to avoid that disaster r. this leads me to the third point, the lessons of of america. the best way to convey to an american audience how the euro ponson could be made to work better is to compare the u.s. and eurozone to the great recession, explaining why the u.s. monetary union, the largest in the world, while flawed, has done so much better in handling the crisis and the european monetary union. so here are some important facts about the u.s. and european performance following the crisis. roughly five years after the great recession, the u.s. is in the midst of a gradual but firm recovery, while europe is deeply mired in recession. u.s. gdp is well above its pre- crisis peak and growing again while it has seen no growth in europe. u.s. financial debacle exposed deep fault lines, and the recovery has been painfully slow. however, when it needed to, the united states was able to deploy significant fiscal stimulus, monetary policy was listen, much more aggressively and europe -- much more aggressively and earlier than in your parent european delivery saw soaring interest rates, and all countries were forced it to fiscal austerity measures by three things -- the inability of the periphery -- german conservatives, and the non existence of anything resembling a central government. in the united states, the top program, combined with the deployment of the fdic for smaller banks, helped banks to lend while largely paying for itself. european banks in the periphery countries and in the core are by contrast still in sharp the leveraging mode and in need of government support in many cases. states that saw the largest housing bubbles, florida, arizona, nevada, are still today suffering from the aftershock, but the housing prices are hard -- adjusted more quickly and are now coming back, and the gdp unemployment are growing again. thanks in part to large automatic stabilizers that are part and parcel of a federal system of taxation and social programs. by contrast, spain, ireland, and greece, which saw a of a sovereign debt crisis. american states also never saw declining competitiveness on the european periphery that came with the establishment of the europe. in the euro sow, the introduction of the currency was associated with a decline in the interest rates and a confidence boom in the periphery, which raised prices and wages much of the corp. adjusted for president today. to an extent, this was a onetime phenomena that hopefully will not repeat if the euro remains. all the european periphery countries saw their government credit dried up. by contrast, florida, which also saw many bank failures and retained its triple a and rating. as already mentioned, by and large, the state governments were sheltered from problems in their banking system by federal mechanisms. u.s. states have been helped by the fact that they adopted tough provisions long ago. while government debt in the nations of the european periphery is over 100% of gdp, it is less than one-tenth of that in the u.s. states. the u.s. has its counterparts to this debt in a large federal debt, which the euro stone does not have, but one important lesson of the crash is that nations that retained their currency and their ability to devalue, can carry larger debt up to a point appeared witness the low interest rates still being paid by japan and the u.k., whose government accounts are even worse shape than that of the u.s. federal government. this then leads by last point, which is about policy. the implications of this comparison -- i know there are limitations to the comparison -- i know these are difference attritions -- but the implications i think are nevertheless fairly clear for the europeans, and they require both an immediate response at a long-term institution building response. to contain the present crisis, unfortunately, there is no viable alternative to fiscal austerity measures in the periphery. what needs to be understood is that these austerity measures are needed not just to redress the government accounts, but also to restore competitiveness. in the absence of the exchange rate tools, containment of the domestic demand is the major instrument available to achieve an external balance and reduced prices. however, the pain can be reduced and the likelihood of resumed growth increased if the periphery and next structural reform that makes labor and credit markers -- markets more flexible, resembling those of u.s. states. the core countries can also help by taking measures that stimulate demand and allow their wages to rise. in addition, greece needs more debt forgiveness. spain and ireland needs help to recapitalize their banks. monetary policy can play a big role and the so-called -- has to remain and so did a large scale liquidity injections into the european central banks appeared institution building is also crucial, both as a confidence- building measure now and to avoid a repeat of the crisis in the future. joint bank supervision must be complemented by euros son-wide deposit insurance and mechanisms for banks rescues. first steps toward automatic stabilizers should be undertaken, and such a eurozone- wide unemployment insurance scheme and increase infrastructure funds financed through a share of value-added taxes or income tax receipts, for example. conclusion -- i will quote again from president klaus' book. repeated today collaborators began a quarter of the century ago, integration turn in the year of age integration turned into unification, pro competitive policy into excessive regulation them healthy diversity into rigid uniformity. this did not bring any positive results but just the opposite. i respect that view, but i disagree, for both political and economic reasons. i remain a believer in deeper european integration. the impact -- there is indeed a democratic deficit in the way the european project is run. it must be fixed. can -- we cannot ignore the fact that the euro remains widely supported. in italy, just now come a post- election survey shows that 74% of italians support staying in the euro and only 16% would support a return to the lira. like president klaus, i recognize the shortcomings, but end up in a very different place. while he goes for heno to the euro and for a going back, i believe the only rational way forward is to deal with the crisis, with all the means available at our disposal, while also building smaller -- stronger underpinnings for the currency to rival in the long term. thank you. [applause] >> thank you. i gather president klaus, there were comments made that you just wish to comment upon. , right up here. -- come right up here. >> i have to make a comment, because the professor, what he is presenting here is the standard e.u. establishment view. this is something i have been fighting for years and decades, and i disagree with 100% of the words used here this morning -- [laughter] so what else to say? total disagreement, missing the point, and not taking the issue seriously. i am not an uninvolved observer from the world bank or such an institution. i live in the heart of europe, with my children, grandchildren, so i am really interested in what is going on there. this is not an academic exercise. when the use say that everything is ok, but the introduction of the common currency was a premature solution, i cannot premature. term is a total understatement. it is missing the point. it was a tragic and wrong decision. it was not a premature decision. we have to look at it clearly and correctly. it created dramatic -- if has dramatic consequences for europe. to say it was a premature decision is just interesting for a democratic scholar, not for a person who lives on the european continent pick third, you speak about lessons from america. i studied the american lesson very long time, and i still remember 10 years old, the national bureau of economic research study, how long did it take united states to become a single currency area? maybe some of you remember this study. you may remember the answer was that it took 150 years, and it was necessary to fight a civil war in the meantime. the last, in terms of a sudden, it is hopefully it will not last that long in europe. to speak innocently about the premature decision is for me really unacceptable. you recommend that the acceleration of the european unification process a la the united states. for me, and unacceptable idea. the people in europe cannot want to create a unified continent a la the united states of america. to give us such a recommendation is anti-democratic, violating the freedom of countries who decide their own future, and please do not give us such advice. [laughter] i simply cannot accept it. we're not a nation in europe. you mentioned the necessity to make policy changes. i tried to explain that it is not about policy changes. it is a deeper issue. it is about a systemic change. i lived for decades in a communist, and mr. brezhnev was permanently organizing committees for introducing n reforms, and we tried to tell our political leaders, it is not the issue of reforms. we must have fundamental systemic change. it finally happened, and i hope it will happen in europe as well. you say again, for me, an unacceptable way of looking at things, europe -- greece needs something. i do not think it is in connection with the cato philosophy. maybe i was wrong, but i thought i said at the beginning of my speech that he took believes in freedom, free markets, and minimal government. i do not understand cato as an institution which police in giving advice is to sovereign governments -- which believes in giving advice is to sovereign governments. please accept democracy as a prevailing principle and did not give advice to anyone. [laughter] definitely, at the institute is like the world bank did not belong to the current world -- [laughter] they should have been eliminated decades ago, but it is still possible to do so. i made the statement [indiscernible] in 1990 when i was pushed to accept advice or how to do things in my country, and even to pay for it. sattement -- statement that said it was klaus. i said i was not willing to pay hard money for soft advice. let's make a change. you mentioned one figure about italy, in the person of the italians wanting to stay in the e.u. i accept it, but i must tell you that the latest opinion poll in the czech republic says and the people want to introduce the -- 6%. and how many people want to adventure sometimes in the future come after the eurozone -- 16% are. 78% say never. it is a little bit more complicated. [applause] >> one clarification. first of all, have lived 25 years of my life in europe. i did not have the privilege of living in the czech republic and or czechoslovakia, but i have lived and worked in italy, belgium, and the u.k., and also i am an academic perhaps. i have been in two of the largest economic consulting firms in business in europe over the years. i do not have children or grandchildren, but i have four siblings and several brothers and sisters in law, and nephews who lived in italy or france or other countries, and unfortunately, several of them are unemployed. so i feel the crisis, mr. president, just like you to come and very, very deeply. thank you. [applause] >> all right. we're now going to hear from you. a few words before we do. please wait until the microphone gets to you. identify yourself and any affiliation you may have come to your question is directed to come and please a question and not a statement. right over here. >> university of southern california. prof. koss, three years ago you wrote european monetary union is not at risk of being abolished. do you still believe that, -- the european union is not at risk of being abolished. that is from what you wrote in 2010. do you still believe that, and if not, at what point do you think europeans, and german taxpayers will decline to pay any price or bear any burden for the european monetary union? >> i said something like that because i do not believe that the necessary thing is to liquidate european union. i have never suggested anything like that. i think it is still possible to make fundamental changes inside the structure of the european union, but i am absolutely convinced that we are in a blind alley, a deeper unification. the must turn back. he must turn somewhere to make a different decision. my decision is to except -- acc ept that we are in a blind area and have to turn back. the question is how far. >> right here. >> thank you. presidents klaus, a month ago you hosted a wonderful meeting in prog. i would like to thank you for an excellent meeting. our friend from spain characterized the eurozone as second best to the gold standard and a system that brought gold standard like discipline to his area. it was moving in the direction of liberalization. would you expressed the same disdain for the gold standard, which is based on national currencies, that you do for the euro? >> i express my disagreement. simply, as an economist i can write a piece about things like that. practically, i think it is not a meaningful solution. i am not interested in that. the wrong view of some classic people in europe and spain is that such a system could help. i do not believe in a solution. sari. >-- sorry. >> good afternoon. it is a quarter of a century that we assisted you in your colleagues in the transition from a sensory plan to a market economy. he made a point saying czechoslovakia is that interested in introducing markets. this was a similarly strong position. i am glad to see that today you have the same position about the euro. there is no excuse for not having foreseen the consequences. the discussions were on going. the smithsonian agreement, whether the euro should come possibly at the end of a full harmonization of economic and fiscal policy or whether the currency unit could be as an instrument to achieve that goal was clearly discussed. it was written about. there could be no illusions. we have the euro and use a we need a fundamental -- now we have the euro and you said we have a fundamental stepping back, i very much agree with that. however, could you be a little more detailed or give your view of how it could look? let me throw up what idea what i'm after. if in 30 or 50 years the european union had by then decided that a federal budget is needed, say 30% or 60%, you see that as a survival in the future if? she get rid of the euro and move toward? that toward -- would you see the euro and move toward it? could you be explicit about how he would see the future from now on? >> you cannot announce your position. >> when you asked in english about a debate is better in german. eyeless -- i was dealing with the conflict. it sounds better in german and english. i was fighting the idea. i was defending the market with out objectives. i still keep the same position. i suggested something like that in germany in the last two decades. in the audience was not have the. in the last two or three years -- was not happy. in the last two or three years when i mention that project to get rid of the market share, the audience started to applaud. i think we will finally win. that is my point. i fully agree that the pluses and minuses of the monetary implications that was discussed, we participated in those as well. one thing that was discussed was whether the politicians expected those discussions. i am afraid to say that i disgusted many times. they are not ready to discuss the technical details. he made a political projects. he simply wanted to introduce it. the discussion definitely existed. it was relevant for the decision making. i cannot imagine there is an area in the euro accepting a all these preconditions. not for 17 countries. we can barely image into having a good monetary integration. 17 definitely. the question is whether we should continue with this project. it will be better to let some countries go out. i do not believe. i am not a believer in the internal devaluation. the possibility to decrease wages increase by 35%. that is an unimaginable project for me. this was close to russia, still afraid of the possibility something happened with that. i do not think that the greeks and some other europeans are ready to do the same. i think it would be a solution for them. i wanted to keep the ground together even after the solution. it was not possible. it is such a motivation. this will be much more difficult greece. it is not true. greece is 2% of the economy. there is another that was much bigger in the situation. i am sure it is possible to let one or three countries to go out of the eurozone and everything would be better. as a general question, i was not sure if your question was an analytical one. i would consider an optimum solution about the future. my analysis is a very negative one. every single one will continue. it will grow. at one moment they will be unbearable. that is my expectation. it is my normative position on what i think would be better. that is for another election in next time. >> i would like to ask both panelists, there is a concept that the country is in trouble and they are more immature in their development where they are not doing well. the scandinavian countries are doing quite well. what would be your comments about the validity of this concept which would presumably mean that countries have to learn new skills? >> there is no question that any kind of numerical objectives of institutional strength, the governance has a functioning of labor markets and flexibility. if you look at some of these standards, there is a large gap in the institutional capacity of a country like greece. it is compared to most of the northern europeans. that is a fact. the fact that they cannot devalued their currency, it is part of a reason that this competitiveness loss has happened. i am not that distant from president klaus that these situations might exist. in terms of policy, it is time to press a bear and try to accelerate the reforms. some significant changes have been made. there have been a significant labor market reforms. in greece, you have not had the institutional reforms nearly as affected. it is causing significant declines in labor costs. with enormous pain and great difficulty, these countries are moving gradually, some faster than others toward becoming more competitive and toward these reforms. the hope is that in the present circumstances given enough time, given enough support over three or five years, these reforms will begin to have an impact. that is the hope. i see that as a much better alternative than trying to go back on the euro. while i agree with president klaus about greece, that may be possible to engineer a relatively and disruptive exit of that from the result, i do not think that is possible for italy and spain. >> this is an ounce of years later than the rest of the eurozone countries. they announced to enter the eurozone. it was an incredible story. we decided to change the program of the conference. the financial experts, we ask them to explain to us the rest of it. there they do explain the situation. the ceo of the biggest greek bank came to the microphone and announced "my biggest greek bank decided to help the possibility to enter the eurozone by announcing this morning that our prime rate goes down from 16% to 9%." i would expect that all the economists would say it is a joke. it cannot be true. that was how greece enter the eurozone, using such methods. we can change the interest rates overnight. devaluation, i must say that i consider the exchange rate as the most important price in the economy. to fix that price, and not reflecting on the economic situation is stretching it is a tragic mistake. -- situation is a tragic mistake. the degree of devaluation of the eurozone currencies in the 35 years. from 1963 to the 31st of december 1998. 35 years. the average devaluation of currencies like spanish and so on, it rose from 65 to 85%. the whole idea of the eurozone was based on an idea that this development is forgotten and now starting on the first of january 1999 there would be no devaluations. it is such economic nonsense. that think they would say to all the finance ministers that it is a tragic mistake. i do not think we can improve the situation by introducing the german reforms of the labor market. it has not escape from eliminating the possibility of the exchange rates. >> i want to pick up on the demography -- democracy deficit. we do have to fix it. some of the reforms have been suggested. some of these are post- demographic. the move away from the consent of the people. i do not expect a long answer here. in the direction of how we fix it, could to get some outlying about the democracy deficit of your -- of europe? could you give us some direction in how we could fix the democracy deficit? >> if we can have a short answer so it could get a few more questions in. >> this is not my area of expertise. there are two things. one is to give more authority to the european parliament's which the lisbon treaty has done. more devolution of power to the european parliament. more use of the referenda. more of this is happening now. i think this should go forward. >> hello. as you probably know, there is a new integration development now. a few countries are participating. there are a created a customs union. they're trying to treat the eurasia economic union. they are using the eu experience to create it. i am asking whether it is the right thing to learn from. hopefully more countries would join it as well. >> i think that europe is almost a controlled experiment that suggests [inaudible] the americans here recommends the deeper unification. i would suggest to the americans to start taking seriously the naphtha -- nafta arrangements. why not introduce a new currency? that is the same suggestion you are telling us in europe. take it seriously. [applause] >> this lady right over here. >> thank you. do you know about the name dispute? corrected the the speak up a little more. -- >> could you speak up a little more. >> how do you comment that one member state is dictating the name of the candidate state and they failed to protect the right? >> i do not want to make strong statements about it. i attended the nato summit. 28 heads of state of nato's spent eight hours from 8:00 in the evening until 4:00 in the morning trying to convince the greece to change the position. i participated in the debate. i do not know what else to say. he should have won currency together with greece. that would solve the problem. everyone should should have his thinking. that is a precondition. suggest one currency to greece. >> do you fear that your grant children's generation, which should not live through the inefficiencies of socialism, will somehow become resigned to the pressures from brussels/ if you were speaking to ben bernanke, would you ask them to stop we did ask him to stop -- would you ask them to stop pumping so much electronic money into the system, much of which is going to prop up european banks which perhaps ought to fail? >> the first question was about the new generation. i am frustrated that the generations are not able to learn the lesson. they simply forgot our experience. i expected the new member countries would be able to oppose some of the center listed decisions. i am afraid that this is not enough. he must make a systemic change. >> i do not want to do this. this would be for another topic. this is for one type of policy. let's make a debate about whether this is the solution to the problems here in the united states of america. i am afraid not. i do not want to trivialize this. >> you are a prime minister during the 1990's and the country after the treaty was signed. margaret thatcher said she did not understand how to signing into law or a green that britain would follow. it seems to me even not clearly understand this process is going. did this structure the add-on of emu? they know this the process, the way of ago. is anything you want to withdraw? you are on record as saying the republic is ready today to join the european union. dg misinterpret the direction the process was going -- did you messenger but the direction the process was going? >> you are right. people like me better not allow for 20 years from 1968-1969 to leave the country and go to germany. we were definitely not insiders. do not criticize us for that. it was done in a moment. we were in the middle of our radical political transformation. i must submit that we did not pay sufficient -- to admit that we do not pay sufficient attention to the treaty. i was probably be first in central and eastern europe you said it. bb be wanted to have a normal european country -- we wanted to have a normal european country, it to participate in the integration process. we had no other chance than to participate in this process. at the beginning of the 1990's i tried to put the citizens back to europe. it is something else to use this in the european union. i was afraid of entering the european union. >> we have time for just one more question. >> who have to stop. >-- we have to stop. >> to do think, it seems to me the issue is not so much the existence of all these free trade laws and integration but more the problem of european socialism. all the lowering of immigration barriers in free trade within the european uranian reunion scene sick have done wonders for -- even seems to have done wonders for the economic situation. it seems like the altruism that lies at the base of this economic socialism seems to foster a dog eat dog attitude through these wealth redistribution schemes that drive these countries into huge debt and destroy their economic situation. germany cannot even deal with it debt. do you think the issue is more european socialism? >> in other words, at international socialization. >> there are countries that are very socialist. sweden has the most equal income distribution in the world. it has a highly progressive income tax. it is less progressive than it used to be. they admit to some degree toward civilization. -- they have moved to some degree toward civilization. they remain one of the highest performing economies in the world. several scandinavian states are in that situation. i do not think he can simply boils down to the choice of the kind of state that countries want. some be able to do quite well with a more developed social safety net. this too well with out. -- some do well it out. i do believe the heart of the issue in europe right now is to do not so much with the kind of welfare state they have but with the macro arrangement that they have adopted. just to underscore, i see many of the limitations and problems created by unifying the currency. at the same time, i find it very difficult to see any other way forward then to persevere with its and gradually affect the reforms. >> in my state introductory i said there are two problems. i'm ready to translate it into your terms. the second is the [inaudible] i think both those aspects treated the current european turmoil. -- created the current european turmoil. i find it interesting that someone from france, and the most socialist current jury project country in europe, accuses someone else of being a socialist. -- the most socialist country in europe, accuses someone else of being a socialist. >> i want to remind you again that the new book is out. please give a warm round of applause. [applause] [captioning performed by national captioning institute] [captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2013] >> if you miss any of the discussion it is available in the c-span video library. go to c-span.org. join us tomorrow when the senate intelligence committee hears about worldwide security threats. winces include the new head of the cia john brennan. it will start at 10:00 a.m. eastern on c-span3. tomorrow the focus will shift to sec oversight. we would hear from all five commissioners. that is live tomorrow at 2:30 eastern. earlier today we covered the american public transportation association's legislative conference. we do have a more coverage coming up. right now here's a look at some of the comments from this morning. >> this is not a luxury. it is an absolute necessity. today we are looking at the challenge of how to move 4 billion more tons of freight over the next three decades. our highways and airports are stretch close to their limits. the over reliance continues to grow. according to the institute report, because of highway congestion alone now cost our economy over $120 billion a year at a cost of $800 annually. close to 3 billion gallons of fuel, enough fuel to fill the new orleans superdome four times is wasted annually. for the first time the institute measured travel reliability, underscoring the need to provide more transportation alternatives. the study found that increasing amount of time have to be set aside to ensure on-time arrival for high priority trips. in our airport as well are shoveling to give up with moderate demand. about 20% of all flights are delayed. it is a way of confronting- prices in changing demand. airlines are making significant cutbacks to change into medium- sized cities. on the face these challenges, the simply cannot be ignored. was service levels targeted to the marketplace rail could be the most cost effective, least oil reliance, and most environmentally friendly mode to make people and freight. two railroad tracks can carry as many travelers in an hour as 16 lanes of highway. while the cost compares favorably with roads, it only consumes 1/3 of the land required. >> we cannot look back years from now wonder why we did nothing in the face of real threats to our security and our economy. that is why earlier today i signed a new executive order that will strengthen our cyber defenses by increasing information sharing in developing standards to protect our jobs and our privacy. >> there are some things that clearly need to be done with an executive order. some things can only be dealt with legislation. part of my reaction is i wish the president had put as much efforts into getting some legislation passed and then come out with the executive order rather than the other way around. >> it has been around for a long time. we finished talking about it. we finish wondering what is going to happen. things are happening every single day that are destroying our actual property which is taking away from our future. people are very casual about it. everybody is casual about it. we are not. we cannot afford to be. >> a look at the reason -- the recent cyber security order. it is tonight's at 8:00 eastern on c-span2. >> one of the things that an early american wife was taught to do, she supported her husband's career, usually through entertaining. she was both a socially adept and physically savvy person. she could structure her entertainment in such a way that she can lobby for her husband under the guise of entertaining. she also thought it was very important to create a setting in the white house, almost like a stage, for the performance of her husband and the conduct of politics and diplomacy. >> first lady dolley madison. we will follow her journey. we will include your phone calls and tweets tonight. >> earlier today we hosted a discussion on the defense of traditional marriage. host: brian brown is the president of the national organization for marriage. the supreme court will hear some cases. here is a headline. lay out what the court is going to hear. guest: there are two cases. this article is about the perry case. essentially it is whether there is a right to redefine marriage. the court has to rule. people in california voted to protect marriage as a union between a man and a woman. a prior vote was overturned. they voted again. those against the proposition filed suit. it went through the courts. supporters lost in the lower courts and in the ninth. now it is going to the supreme court. this is the decision on the future of marriage in the country. the second case is the doma case. this is also -- the court will hear both cases is essentially at the same time. host: what is your basis for your opposition? guest: marriage connects mothers and fathers to children. this is what marriage is. mothers and fathers, husbands and wives. no other relationship is the same. it connects children to mothers and fathers. whether people can stand up and vote on this issue without the court sure sickening the process and throwing out the votes of 50 million americans. over 31 states have voted to protect marriage between a man and a woman. it would essentially be throwing out the votes of 50 million americans. this is a critical vote. i think we will win this case. the law is clear. there is it hidden right to redefine a marriage within the constitution. prior supreme court, the court said there is no federal right or constitutional right that would make marriage, same-sex marriage the law of the land in this country. the court is being asked to create a new understanding that hidden is a right to same-sex marriage. it is not true. essentially throw these votes away. i do not think they will do that. host: there is a full-page ad in the paper today. you see a list of members of the military. we have seen 75 republicans signed on to the legal brief in support of same-sex marriage. guest: look at the republicans who signed. most are former office holders. the majority of republicans understand that marriage is the union between a man and woman. those that want to overturn these amendments were able to find some republicans to sign onto this. very few current office holders have signed on. this is not a new fight within the republican party. they thought social issues were irrelevant. if the republican party wants to draw new voters in, the last thing they should consider is advocating to redefine marriage. i think most republicans are standing firm on the principle that marriage is the union of a man and woman. that is the "progressive" stand. you will see new voters alienated that democrats have endorsed same-sex marriage and they did not support it. host: our guest is brian brown. here are the numbers to call. democrats, 202-737-0001. republicans, 202-737-0002. independents, 202-628-0205. you can see those opposed to allowing them to marry legally trending down words. our guest talked about african- american and latino communities. it shows attitudes shifting among african-americans. 36% of blacks -- host: you are seeing a shifting of opinion among african- americans. who do you represent? who does your group speak for? are you losing people? guest: we of hurt that people are changing on this issue and we saw this exact same type of pulling in california before passage of proposition 8. there were polls saying we were down by 30 or 40 points. it is absurd. it depends how you ask the question. it still shows a strong majority the route the country believe marriage is the union of a man and woman. i would not accept the data in this poll. there were polls saying this was a neck and neck race in north carolina. the marriage amendment passed in north carolina by 60%. majority of americans believe in this common sense truth that it takes a man and woman to make a marriage. many democrats have stood up to protect traditional marriage. many folks from different walks of life, different ethnic backgrounds, different faiths understand that there is something that is true about marriage as the union of a man and woman and that government should not try to redefine marriage. there are consequences for people of faith and consequences for what is taught in the school. the more the folks say what they have in their heart they are willing to devote at the ballot. host: those that allow gay marriage are in orange. you said there have been repercussions. guest: catholic charities had to change its benefits structure because the district said there is no difference between same- sex and opposite sex couples. ehrlich's -religion- organizations have to give the same benefits, and the catholic church could not do this. catholic charities adoption agency in massachusetts were told they could no longer adopt. not allowed to have a tax exemption for a pavilion because it would not allow same- sex union ceremonies. people like me and the majority of americans who voted to protect marriage as the union of a man and woman. they are saying that belief is a form of discrimination and bigotry. when you put that into the law, you cannot be surprised that then there are profound consequences. this was discussed a lot in california. children are taught that is the same thing to grow up and marry a boy as it is to marry a girl, even though parents disagree. that is a profound consequence. host: jennifer from minnesota, good morning. caller: good morning. i agree with a guest. democrats are over sampled more than republicans or conservatives. they are the ones that belief and think that everyone should be equal. the majority of america, we are against that. for christians, they are against it because god says in the bible that homosexuality is an abomination. why should we accept something that man says over want god says? true christians will come to terms if it is ok. the government needs to butt out. this has nothing to do with them. i think it was horrible in california when the people determined that one prop that said gays and lesbians cannot marry, and i was disgusted. that is basically it. i support him wholly. guest: folks around the country stand up and believe in marriage is the union between a man and woman. there are folks that stand up and say, we believe marriage is the union of command and a woman. i was in france for a rally. many were speaking for traditional marriage and work themselves gay. you hear this constant refrain of, this is the future. this is inevitable. there are a lot of folks that no a marriage is the union of a man and woman. host: pew looks at regional differences towards gay marriage. int: let's go to jessica maryland. hi. caller: hi. i am a little disturbed. i agree with the speaker. i'm african-american. what is going on it seems -- due to the media is changing perceptions and changing the value systems. there's a lot of issues surrounding marriage in my community. people want to get married but due to the social issues, that is not what they do before having children. i am pointing this out to say i have seen firsthand the destruction when the family unit is not in place and i think that instead of the discussion around gay marriage, traditional families need to be given a voice and to be supported in this country so that we can ensure children have an adequate home and that they are raised properly. this is where the resources need to go. it shows how low we have gone as a society when we're having this debate. host: let's say there was a family, two women raising children. grandparents and aunts and uncles. would that be preferable than having a single parent family? caller: it is phrased as, if a gay family is providing all the benefits, would that be better than a single mother? when we support the focus back on the traditional family. host: let's get brian brown's opinion. guest: children do best with a mother and father. in countries that have gone far down the road where you see high family breakdown that you were at the point of discussing same-sex marriage. host: let's put the question to you. is that better than having a single parent family? guest: i think it is a false question. our public policy should be for every child to have a mother and father. the ideal is that children have a mom and dad. we should be working to rebuild the marriage culture. advocates for same-sex marriage put a lot of money into these initiatives. i agree. the very idea that children need mothers and fathers and there is something unique about moms and dads. once you accept the argument they are not the same. two men and two women are not the same as a mother and father, and together in a marriage. host: a democrat from texas. good morning. caller: where did he get the right to get together with 31 other states and discriminate against a whole group of people? how did that happen? i'm a christian, too. i believe in marriage and everything else. i don't think the constitution has anything to do with marriage. getting together and discriminated against them. host: ok. guest: gays and lesbians have the right to live as they choose but not the right to redefine a marriage for the rest of us. the majority of americans are discriminating and this is what is at stake. if we disagree on a question of public policy, we have an open debate. we do not shut down debate by saying these people are hateful or bigots. that is not right. it is not discrimination to stand up for the simple idea that a marriage is the union of a man and a woman. utah was told they can become a state unless they ban polygamy. is it discrimination for the state to say only two people can marry? why not 3 or four or five people? it is based upon the idea that men and women are different and complement each other. why not 3, four, five? host: jim writes on twitter. how does it hurt marriage? guest: that is not what the state is doing. it could decide how to do that. what is at stake is what is marriage. what will the state recognized as marriage? this truth that many cultures up until 20 years ago in the united states, everyone agreed on for the most part. the state is redefining marriage. the state is putting this as untrue. marriage can be two men, two women. again, there are consequences in doing that. host: let's hear from the dustin. caller: let me quote from the bible. "there are some eunuchs --" some like priests will not copulate with women for that reason. are punished and castrated. that is a gay person in roman law. jesus represented that. they want to force people to do certain things. you want to prevent consenting adults to engage with each other. there are plenty of well adjusted children that came from same-sex household. it is a red herring. it is not consistent with christianity. guest: is not all that important to me about how it is define but rather how it is true. people will differ on the interpretation and a different reading of scripture. the teaching is very clear. again, that is very clear. also, i was down in memphis two weeks ago, meeting with some of the leaders, the largest african american church, the church of god and crist and they are united on this. there's a wide sense of agreement among religious faiths that marriage is the union of a man and a woman and it is worth standing up for. there are some disagreement but, again, that whatcy we have these public -- why we have these public policy arguments. that is clearly the state recognizing what comes before the state that marriage is the union of a man and a woman. host: brian brown is was the executive director for the institute of connecticut. a little bit about the organization, it helped to get proposition 8 on the ballot in california. it led to repeal gay marriage bills in maine and blocked gay marriage prorpzigses in massachusetts and other states. this guy's argument was used in the opposition of ending slavery. guest: the reality in laws of interrational marriage or laws based on racism that is about keeping the races apart. marriage is about bringing sex sexes together. we see the plaintiffs in the prop 8 case they make this argument that is a slur on good people. they argue the same thing that somehow loving versus virginia that we're the same type of people that argued against interrational marriage. that is absolutely out of left field and completely wrong. laws that kept the races apart did just that, they were against marriage. marriage itself is about bringing the sexes together. some of the callers are making the argument for me. you can't say why are you care about this? this is not an important issue, you're going to lose anyway. then say marriage is the union of a man and a woman are discriminating or in the same position as those that supported slavery. one other thing i will say, if you look at the history of the great social movements you see the importance of religion. the movement is one of those. when folks say why are all these pastors and priests and rabbis standing up for traditional marriage? don't they understand that the separation of church and state say they should snot be slolved in this? that is wrong. we've had pastors stand up and say slavery is wrong. i think those say -- standing up right now and let's protect the trs of children and society. that's what motivates them and that is an important part of american history and the folks that have stood up for justice, in that history. host: let's go to judy. guest: i called in to correct a few of the gentleman's facts. first off marriage between one man and one woman it is not historic. i would like to add that the traditional role of government enforcing marriage laws has been contractual matter, it is only -- sense about 1850 -- since 1850 that the u.s. government came out with a set of fixed laws regarding property. marriage was pry marley about property, providing for the children, and you seem to want to ignore all of those concepts plus, also the constitutional requirement for full faith and credit. the laws of the individual states regarding marriage. i would like to know what you have to say. host: before we get a response, tell us more about your personal opinion, give us a sense of how old you are and your opinions of the gay marriage? guest: i very gay since i was 16. i was unabled to married in partner and she died and her ex-husband took custody of the children. host: thank you, judy for your call. guest: again, we're going to have a difference of view behind marriage from english common law to the colonies up until the present. the government has recognized marriage as the union of a man and woman in this country. now, there weren't a lot of fights about same-sex marriage before the 1960's. that's true. everyone understood that the unity was between a man and a woman. you did have a fight over polygamy. it is a common vareyent in some cultures, but again, this country made the right decision in the 1850's, 1860's in the debate over utah statehood and new mexico they said that marriage was between one man and one woman. polygamy was not aloud in new territories becoming new states. i don't think that same-sex marriage is in the best interest and society. every child has a mother and a father. that is the key biological fact about marriage. this is the means by which children come into the world. societies need a way to connect children to their mothers and fathers. when you change that there are going to be consequences. host: so someone like our caller judy, given the scenario that she lid out. her partner died and she did not have visitation access to the children she helped to raise. is that fair? guest: i don't know the particulars of her circumstance. there are laws for -- for any two people you can have contract laws -- host: so you wo be ok with that? guest: the problem becomes when we make this category like same-sex domestic partnerships. what we've seen in states that have done that it is a short step to same-sex marriage. illinois is a perfect example. the argument is put forward that this is what we want to focus on, we're not going after marriage. we don't need to redefine marriage. two years later, we have a law that redefines marriage that there is an attempt to have a vote in illinois. so the key question is, what is marriage? again, the argument is there is something unique and special about mothers and fathers coming together and those who who that say it is discrimination, those have to say why did the country make a mistake in sing that polygamy wasn't allowed in this country and in the new states. host: our guest brian brown brought up the perspective on same-sex marriage. as of this year it says since 2000 when no country recognized same-sex marriage they have passed legislation to recognize same-sex marriage. caller: i'm a history teacher and i'm looking at the society that we must lean forward and change. i look at it how dare we decide to throw away 5,000 or more years for tradition that we don't know what we're opening. you just stated that other countries have opened up gay marriage other than amsterdam and holland and their statistics says that 88% of marriages have gone down to 12%. no one is getting married anymore. i don't think the argument is if gays can get married. i don't believe that most gays, especially gay men want to get married. they just want a stamp of normality and that children should have to deal with it and i have a problem with it. we're deciding that we're going to change things that have been this way forever. host: you're against gay marriage. give us your age range and if you've always had this opinion? caller: i've always had this opinion, i'm a father and i'm in my 50's. to me, it is not normal. snoofl brian brown? guest: if you look international i will that some of these countries we're debating same-sex marriage, this southbound a "marriage equality." we don't have to guess after the consequences. you've seen them punished, intimidation, repression, and most recently in canada they have been brought up, including for a bishop simply about speaking the truth. i think the caller is right in the sense that when you put the stamp of approval on same-sex marriage, the state is endorsing a view. it is endorsing a view that marriage is based upon the view of a you noon of a man and a woman. when the state does it that it uses its power to repress an idea that it sees against basic democratic norms. when you're kids are taught in the school, your father or mother are bigots because they hold this view. when they are told they might lose their tax exempt status because they are teaching the truth that marriage is between a man and a woman. you can't say you're not warned. host: president bill clinton wrote an article in "the washington post." he says it is time to overturn the marriage act. he says it is imcomp pattable with the constitution. turning to a comment to our twitter followers. joe says it is like get married what you want. what do you think about those perspectives? guest: i think the argument that some how the state could have no view on marriage is wrong. by embracing same-sex marriage you're seeing a great expansion in state power. you're having the government try to call white black or black white. the government doesn't the power to redefine marriage. if you give the power to the state you're allowing the state to do something that it nevered that power to do in the first place. also, in the arguments in the proposition 8 case you're giving the government to retrite its legal history. host: hear from diane in ohio. caller: good morning. i would like to say that i'm not trying to change his mind, he's saying that marriage between a man and a woman is safe based. not all people have that view. same-sex couples are able to provide the same love and caring as a man and a woman. what is better, i believe, they are adopting children who have no mother or father and it is providing that support system. to say that they shouldn't be able to live their lives together just because someone reads the bible i don't agree with that. i believe that laws were made many years ago but you can't say those laws always stay the same. yes, our government should be able to look at progression and change the laws because you're basing your faith of a man and a woman union of a book that was written thousands of years ago. guest: i'm not saying that folk who is have committed their lives together can't live together or live as they choose. they have the right to live as they choose but they don't have the right to redefine marriage. i'm arguing not simply on faith, there are people motivated by faith. that is their right in this country. faith and reason point to the reality that there is a difference between men and women. we're unique, we are comp -- comp planementary. in the case of adoption, there are long nights for adoption -- lines for adoption. i would reverse the question. what we've seen in adoption after same-sex marriage was passed in places like massachusetts the state has come in and shut down adoption agencies. they say that catholic agencies can no longer adopt because they only place children with husband and fathers, a man and a woman. after passage of same-sex marriage you can't discriminate and they are shutting down adoption agencies. host: we have one last caller. guest: hello. my thought is more that it is a monetary thing. i think every should choose between marrying or not being married. when it comes to the state, i believe that if the state wants to give a certain benefit for people raising children then they should get a certain benefit. other than that, it doesn't matter if we're two individuals and we want to adopt. i think the basis should be the same. we're looking at changes of money and monetary but people should be allowed in general to make their choice. but everybody doesn't get the same benefits out of life. it doesn't matter if you're black or white we all make this choice in life to do what we're going to do. host: let's get a response. guest: again, i think that husband and wives are the best interest of children. if you agree with that, i hope folks will come for the march for marriage. you can learn more at marriage .org. if you have faith or do not have faith you can understand there is something unique and special of marriage between the union of a man and a woman. the states should recognize that uniqueness and not redefine marriage. host: brian brown, thanks for your time. >> we cannot look back years from now and wonder why we did nothing in the face of real threats to the security and our economy. that's why earlier today, i signed a new executive order that will strengthen our cyber defenses and developing standards to develop national security, jobs and our privacy. >> there are things that need to be done with an executive order. some things can only been done with legislation. part of my reaction is, i wish the president put as much effort in getting some legislation passed then come out with the executive order rather than the other way around. >> it has been around for a long time, cyber security. we finned talking about it. we wonder what is going to happen, things are happening every single day. they are taking away if our future and people are very casual about it. newspapers are casual about it, everybody is casual about it. we're not and we can't afford to be. >> a look at the president's recent cyber security executive order. that is tonight on c-span2. >> one of the things that an early american wife was taught to do, she supported her husband's career. usually through entertaining, and dolly was socially savvy. she could construct her entertainments in such a way that she could lobby for her husband under the guise of entertaining. she thought it was important to create a setting in the white house, almost like a stage for the performance of her husband and the conduct of politics and dip low macy. >> first lady, dolly madison. we'll follow her journal as the woman that history remembers, the wife of james madison. we'll include your facebook comments and tweets tonight on c-span and c-span 3. earlier today we brought you live coverage looking at cost of living increases and costs of benefits. here's a little bit of what he had to say. >> it is difficult looking at the way our country cares for its veterans and try to stomach this. most people don't understand that the fight for this is ongoing. it has gotten a little bit better but it is nowhere near where we need it to be. the unemployment rate for veterans is 2% higher. we lost more people to suicide last year in the military than we did to combat. most people don't know that. in the time that we sat here talking about this one veteran has committed suicide, every 65 minutes in this country. most of them are elderly who are getting these benefits that we're talking about cutting. the v.a. has a backlog for these benefits that is unbelievable. i don't know if anyone saw it today but in "the daily baste" put out a report on the v.a. backlog. it is much worse than we thought it was. we say that veterans on afghanistan and iraq are waiting 300 days in most areas it is closer to 600. we're nowhere near where we need to be to care for the men and women that have been sacrificing over the last 12 years. i can't believe that this is even on the table. i can't believe we're talking about this. what we're seeing is -- what veterans are seeing is that the government is failing them every single day. every single day the care and services four veterans -- we're failing. so they say that times are tough and we all need to sacrifice and we're going to cut your benefits. it is a punch in the face and it is not acceptable. tell it to the guy that has done three tours in afghanistan. who can't get a mental health appointment within 50 days at the v.a. tell that to the families who have lost family members to suicide. you can't pull water out of the same well otherwise, you're going to have people stop serving in the military. this is something we cannot accept. this is what we're talking about. you cut through all the math, we're talking about betraying the faith that we keep with our men and women who dedepends our country. -- defend our country. thank you for your time and attention. i thank aarp for bringing us here today. i hope you go back your bosses and you talk about this in as simple terms as possible. this is something we cannot accept as a country. thank you. >> george washington joined a long 50-year relationship with alexandria from the time it was founded when he was 17 until he died at the age of 67. he participated in the political life of the city. he was a trustee of alexandria and he was justice of the peace. he represented alexandria in the house of virginia legislature. even when was was president he made sure they chose this area to be the new site of the george washington loved to dance. to dance with the most famous person in the united states was a big thrill. martha came here for birthday balls. he died in 1799. they have held the ball every year since then. today alexandria's main street is named after washington. alexandria has the largest -- in the nation. this is george washington's home town. >> next weekend, more from alexandria, virginia. we look behind-the-scenes and history of alexandria, virginia. sunday at 5 on the c-span3. >> on friday the consumer protection working group posted a summit of focusing on the latest scams and what consumers can do to protect themselves. attorney jericho -- attorney- general eric holder addressed the summit. this is about one hour 15 minutes. >> good morning. welcome to georgetown law school. on behalf of the law school we are gratified we are having the summit at georgetown law school. it points out the geographic advantage georgetown has over any other law school in the country. i am delighted to be here along with my colleagues, former colleagues in any event, who worked with the financial critic who made the financial fraud task force is success. the economic downturn unleashed a tsunami of fraud and the agencies represented here today -- and our sister agencies who are members of the tax force to join forces to make sure that government works collaborative lee to return whatever money we can find and take these lobsters off of the playing field once and for all. we have had great success over the last four years but much remains to be done and to date's summit will discuss some of the issues on top of the task force's agenda. i just want to say a couple of words, thinking the leadership of the task force. the task force was created by attorney-general holder and staffed mainly by our colleagues at the department of justice. their colleagues, who are unfortunately not here today, have done a fabulous job keeping the task force movie and we owe them our collective thanks. i am also grateful for the invaluable assistance provided by the legal services community and the advocacy groups that have worked with the task force. the too played an important job identifying targets, and getting the message out to the public. we are all in this together and our strength together is greater than the sum of its partners. it is my great pleasure to introduce acting assistant attorney general, is that still your title? >> principal deputy. >> he has done a remarkable job in keeping the task force moving. we greatly x -- we really appreciate your leadership on this. the podium is yours. >> thank you very much for that introduction. i am pleased to attend this second annual consumer protection summit as a part of national consumer protection week. i want to thank the co-chairs, the executive director, and the members of the consumer protection working group who made this event possible today. as many of you know the consumer protection working group is a part of the broader financial fraud enforcement task force, which president obama created in 2009. the mission of this group is to bring resources from across the federal government and in partnership with our state counterparts to strengthen its consumer -- state counterparts to strengthen consumer protection and to educate the public in an effort to protect and -- to prevent consumers from being victimized. at the civil division i am particularly proud to protect the health and safety of americans and to combat financial fraud and other scams. protecting consumers through the vigorous civil and criminal enforcement of federal consumer protection laws is the mission of the civil division's consumer protection branch. we used all of the tools at our disposal to confront challenges that threaten the economic security of our families, as well as the health and safety of our citizens. if we have made protecting consumers a centerpiece of the department over all. consumer fraud affects ordinary people every day and can devastate victims. fronters and scam artists target vulnerable populations who can afford it, such as the elderly, family of service members, etcetera victims can lose more money. they can lose trust in the marketplace. they can lose opportunities and the ability to take control of their finances and future. they can lose confidence in the critical products we need like the medicines we take and the food we eat. they can feel a loss of security from having been taken advantage of. will hear some about the work of the civil division and our partners in the justice department and across the government as we worked to protect consumers. you'll hear about dietary supplement, paid a landing, lotteries scams and even romance scams. our work is much broader than this list. consumer fraud comes in many forms and our enforcement efforts reflect that. to give you some examples, we pursue cases against companies that manufacture food under unsanitary conditions and not mislead consumers about the safety of the drugs they market. we bring cases against debt collection companies who try to collect debts that aren't even against those who import and try to sell half of his children toys. against companies that purport to sell business opportunities but instead the fraud victims. and against those who offer help to consumers facing debt or foreclosure but instead take their money and leave them worse off than when they started. the results demonstrate that we are making a difference. in 2012, the consumers protection branch working with attorneys offices across the country, secured over 1.9 $5 billion in criminal fines, restitution and saw 23 defendants convicted criminally. we have made many companies change their ways and deal fairly with consumers through injunctive relief we obtained from courts, internal corker reform renegotiate in sediments and the deterrence that comes from vigorous enforcement. we know that enforcement alone is not enough. we cannot prosecute our way out of consumer fraud. we need collaboration, education and outreach. and with the assistance and knowledge of people here today, and additional discussions with experts and stakeholders, we will develop strategies and solutions for preventing and combating consumer fraud. this is my goal and the goal of the apartment of justice and our partners. although the attorney general was not able to be here today, he asked me to share a video he prepared for this summit. thank you for coming today and joining in this vital discussion. now the video from the attorney general of the united states. [video clip] >> good morning. i am sorry i cannot be with you in person today. i appreciate this opportunity to thank you for taking part in this summit and for your tireless work in preventing and combating several -- consumer fraud and insuring the financial security of the united states. from consumer advocates to legal aid providers, dedicated public servants, each of the participants bring an important perspective to our fight against fraud. all of you are standing on the front lines of this struggle every day. in recent years as consumer fraud has grown and that the complexity and scope, many have an impact firsthand. they can devastate individuals, families and entire communities. and you understand the importance of taking our anti- fraud efforts to a new level. thanks to leaders in this room, we are just -- we are responding to these threats with resolve from crimes like debt believe scams and common tax fraud schemes, you're helping to raise awareness and educate ordinary citizens emblem will populations -- ordinary citizens and populations on how to avoid being victimized. you are rallying partners to help us fight back in bold and innovative ways. for my colleagues at every level of today's justice department, on the record of progress we have established constitutes a top priority. i am proud to report our consumer protection efforts have never been stronger. or more effective. since 2009, the department has a cure nearly $5.9 billion a in criminal fines, for furniture, restitution and civil disgorgement. we have obtained convictions against more than 100 individual trade last year alone, was secured nearly $2 billion in recoveries in cases involving the pharmaceutical, food safety in canada thought matters. we are employing every appropriate school, resources and authority to enhance our investigative and prosecutorial capabilities. alongside a host of a federal law enforcement officials, regulatory agencies and state and local partners, we are responding aggressively to financial and mortgage rescue at fault debt collection schemes. all these achievements and build on the remarkable success of the president's financial fraud enforcement task force which has enabled us to file nearly 10,000 financial fraud cases against nearly 15,000 offenders. including more than 2,900 and mortgage fraud defendants. we saw more than $5 billion in damages for alleged, but that ghost of a heart of the recent economic. -- conduct that goes to the heart of the recent economic crisis. economic moving forward, will continue to exchange ideas and strengthening cooperation between allies across the country to better protect americans from all walks of life. of course,fully addressing the threat consumers face is not something the justice department will be able to do on its own. each of you will always have able to display in defending the interests of consumers and insuring the integrity of our marketplace. we need your help. we need your perspectives and expertise and talent and determination. that is what consumer national protection week is all about my colleagues and i are counting on your assistance and your leadership. american consumers are depending on your thoughtful contributions. i am looking for to all that we will accomplish together as we carry this court into the future. thank you want to get all that you do and keep up the great work. i wish you a most productive summit. >> next we will hear of the active director of the consumer bureau of federal trade. >> it is an odd experience to be introduced by the former director as the acting director. i am honored to be here today representing the ftc. i want to thank the department of justice for putting together this task force. it is in a great experience for all of us. it has brought to bear some important resources. i also wanted thank georgetown law school for hosting this conference. it is a great way to cap national consumer protection week. it is an annual event that involves many partners from throughout the united states and who get together and spend a week emphasizing the importance for the united states and consumers of educating and focusing on consumer protection issues. i will be back later to talk about more specific things but i want to talk briefly about what consumer protection means. when you think of law enforcement, you may think of a property crime. a place where a crime has occurred. there may be witnesses at the scene. that is the kind of thing you may see on tv cop show. consumer protection law enforcement is nothing like that. it involves scams that can cover the globe. it involves perpetrators who can be far removed from the victims. it involves victims who relocated throughout the world. how you deal with that kind of problem? and you cannot solve in an hour. you need to partner with many individuals and people, all of whom have a piece of the information you need. you need to employ all the tools at your disposal to try to put together a solid case that brings together victims and the circumstances and identify partners of the scammers. that is what this is all about. binding together and bring to bear all the tools and intelligence and applying it in a way that protects consumers and businesses from fraud schemes. we talk about it involving law- enforcement, regulation, and education. all three of those are important but the fourth leg of this stool is partnerships. that is what this task force is all about. that is why it has been so important to be a part of it and we are grateful. with that, i will come back to you later but i will now turn you over to the cfpb. >> thanks, chuck and thank you all for being here. i am the enforcement director at the cfpb. it is the new federal agency that has been established and in the aftermath of the financial meltdown to attempt to bring a focused attention on issues associated with financial services and products and to work to protect both consumers and on this businesses that play by the rules in the consumer financial marketplace. we do that working in conduction with colleagues throughout the government. we work in close conjunction with our colleagues of the justice department's, the ftc and the department of education, veterans affairs but also with state regulatory agencies working together to bring the best possible service recant. -- service we can. the best i can do is to remind folks of some remarks our director made last week. one is the area of deceptive marketing practices. it is an area we have focused substantial area in the last year. it has resulted in over $400 million being returned to consumers who had been deceived in the purchase of a credit-card at on products. we have also been concerned about mortgage lender release scams and debt relief scams. the director talked-about debt traps. they have low income but high interest. that gets consumers in deeper trouble. a third area is dead end. those places in the consumer finance the marketplace where consumers are left without a choice. there are many areas here that unlike most consumer transactions, consumers denied it to pick who they do business with. -- consumers do not get to pick who they do business with. when there is a debt collector, they do not get to choose to their debt collector is. when there is a mortgage servicer managing their mortgage they do not get to choose the mortgage servicer. when there is a credit reporting agency affecting their life, they do not get to choose who the agency is. did they do not have the normal power to walk away and say i do not like the way you're doing business with me. i am going to take my business elsewhere. when the consumer is not empowered in that way, we are more concerned about whether the of being properly treated and whether the law is being followed. the fourth area was discriminatory activity. that is where space -- that is where loans or the absence of loans are being made based upon improper discriminatory basis -- race, gender, age. we together with our colleagues will continue to work on issues of deceptive marketing, debt traps, dead ends and discriminatory lending to bring more satisfactory results for consumers. throughout consumers we thank georgetown law school and that justice department for putting this together. this is an important piece of the work we do each year. thank you very much. >> good morning. david, it is terrific to see you again. what events like today proves more than anything else is that we in government can accomplish a lot more when we work together. together is a word that pretty much everyone of the speakers who have been up here today have emphasized. that is the essence of the financial fraud enforcement task force. the leaders of the consumer protection working group here today and others who cannot be here all share a unity of purpose. and it, resolve which is to -- and a common resolve, which is to protect american consumers. they are dedicated to working together to achieve justice in all of its forms, whether it is preventing the fraud or protecting the victims of these fraudulent debt activities. we have done quite a lot and are continuing to do a lot. whether it is summits like these or through a robust initiative looking at third- party payment processors in the financial institutions that would facilitate fraud schemes from occurring or protecting service members and their families from becoming victims of financial fraud to disseminating tool kits. or looking at the payday lending industry. we are all committed to working together. thank you all or appearing here today and being a part of this summit. thank you to george unit -- part-time university for hosting -- thank you to georgetown university for hosting. thank you to the leaders of the consumer protection working group for your leadership and efforts to move our efforts forward. i hope you all enjoy the summit. thank you all very much. [applause] >> at panelists talked about the consumer protection branch is responsible for civil and criminal enforcement of federal laws designed to protect the health, safety, and welfare of the american people. the branch actively prosecute individual companies who have committed fraud, or violated other laws and acted to protect consumers. our first panel is focused on lottery and romance scams. lottery scam spray on the elderly and other potentially vulnerable individuals. unfortunately the scams are increasingly prevalent and devastating to its victims. romance scams in fault from answers to contact people -- involve fraud stirs to contact people, create emotional bonds, and use the strong ties to convince their victims to send a wire -- to wire money to them. the panel of experts today is uniquely qualified to discuss these types of fraud and scams and educate the public how not to fall prey to these types of scams. the panel includes law enforcement, federal prosecutors, and government and nonprofit leaders who are dedicated to protecting individuals and consumers from deceptive and fraudulent practices. i will briefly introduce the panel and then we will get into the discussion. our first member is gregory campbell. he is with the united states postal services. he is the deputy chief inspector of the western field offices. he is responsible for the management of nine field divisions throughout the western united states. his duties include providing strategic planning, program guidance and policy interpretation for all criminal and security programs, including programs to involve mail theft, and child exploitation. deputy chief campeau has learned -- deputy chief campbell has a behavioral degree because a degree in behavioral sciences. chukar wood, who you heard from this morning, is the acting director of the bureau of consumer protection at the federal trade commission. he previously served as the deputy director in the bureau of consumer protection and before that served for 20 years as the director of the ftc's northwest regional office in seattle where he led law enforcement efforts with consumer education efforts involving a large variety -- he joined the ftc after six years on a u.s. senate committee. he is a graduate of -- john is the deputy chief of strategy and fraud in the u.s. department of justice. he co-chair is the international mass marketing fraud working group. he chairs the national level identity theft enforcement interagency working group. he has been with the broad section since 1988. he is a graduate of the university of virginia law school. greg can is a trial a third -- a trial attorney. he specializes in the prosecution of financial institutions involved in fraud and money laundering, as well as financial restitutions that failed to maintain an effective money-laundering program. prior to joiningprior to joinin, he was in ausa in arizona and is a graduate of northwestern university. john braile joined the national consumers league in september 2008 has focused at the national consumers league is on advocating for stronger consumer protection before congress and federal agencies on issues related to telecommunications and other consumer concerns. he earned his b.a. at george mason. inspector campbell, the postal inspection service has been involved in combating lottery fraud from jamaica. how is this fraud committed and what is the inspection service doing to compact -- to combat this? >> thank you. yes, the inspection service has been involved in these types of scams. since 2009, the polls for inspection service has been a part of a task force initiated by the department of homeland security called jolt. as a result, it focuses on investigating crimes that involve lottery scams. individuals, predominantly older citizens, are contacted via the internet, phone or mail, and told they have won some type of prize. they are told to receive their prize, they have to pay a tax. the price is always one cash payment away. that is how they operate. >> what are you doing to investigate to combat this crime? >> we had 18 field offices. all offices have been working fraud scams for years. the scams have become more complex and organized. it has offered scammers an opportunity to be strategic. workingre doing we are cases domestically and by an arresting as many criminals as we can. we also have agents working in jamaica and with law enforcement in jamaica to provide intelligence to help them do their job better. it is a multifaceted approach. when you think of these scams, you think it is just a criminal justice issue. we are specifically looking at the enforcement side. >> you mentioned the postal inspection service has individuals working in jamaica now. can you talk about that? >> we do have resources working in jamaica. we are leveraging our resources, partnering with other agencies. the provide intelligence to law enforcement officials in jamaica to help them do their job better. they have to enforce the laws there but we try to help partner and provide them the intelligence to do their job better. we work with to make a customs and united states embassy in jamaica. we have helped jamaica come up with laws. we are trying to work with jamaican authorities to help them do their job better and be more successful. this is not just an issue in jamaica. this is also an issue in west africa, the u.k., the netherlands. these types of scams originate from those countries as well. >> there are postal facilities in every city around the country and clerks that help people getting stamps and other things including money orders. are money orders one of the means the fraudsters use? >> postal money orders is one means of getting money but it also asked for cash or pre paid credit cards. we have flyers that are out for our postal customers to educate them on how not to become a victim. thee not just focusing on elderly victims but on the care givers. to educate them on what to do when their family members become victims of these types of scams. education is a key component. we are educating not only employees but our postal customers. >> thank you. i would now like to turn to chueck harwood. -- chuck harwood. he is the acting director of the bureau of consumer protection at the ftc. i understand the ftc has a system to collect information from individuals who believe they have been scammed or think they have been contacted by a scammer. can you talk about that system and how those contacts are used to fight this type of fraud? >> sure. thank you for letting me talk about every source that deserves more promotion than what it gets. when i talked earlier, consumer protection law violations involve people who facilitate oftentimes to all the world. the perpetrators may be in jamaica and maybe frauding people summer else in the world. evidence is often scattered to out the world. -- scattered throughout the world. the consumer central network brings together the information to make it possible for law enforcement agencies to more effectively collect information and use it in consumer protection efforts. it is a system that is available to 2000 law enforcement agencies. we asked consumers to submit complaints about their experiences. they can do that through ftc.gov directly. they can also call us. we also get many complaints from our partner agencies. the u.s. postal inspection service, we get many complaint there every year. cfpb gives us many complaints. we get complaints from the department of justice and the better business zeros -- bureaus around the country. also a number of private sector organizations and states. all the complaints are made available to the agency's. in 2012, we collected 2 million consumer complaints in one year. hal those complaints are fraudulent -- half those complaints are fraudulent. it is a fabulous resource. and is free to law enforcement agencies. we were left to see more people contribute complaints. this is the summary report be submitted this year. you can go on the ftc website and see over 100 pages of an affirmation talking about the kind of complaints received broken down by state. >> if you or a loved one have been contacted by a fraudster, you can go to the ftc.gov website and fill out a form. are you seeing with respect to these millions of complaints any trends in the type of fraudulent activity we are talking about this morning? >> yes, we are. what we have seen is an increase in complaints involving jamaican companies. in 2007, we received only about 20,000 complaints. -- 1,800 complaints in 2012, that number was almost 32,000. -- 30,000 complaints. in terms of the kinds of complaints, the age range -- almost half are over 70 years old. in terms of losses, consumers reported in 2012 $24 million in losses. many consumers cannot tell us how much they have lost a . most of the people who complain about jamaican scams are complaining about prizes and lotteries. most are using wire related mechanisms. they are wiring money many are associated with a prize scheme. >> the consumer sentinel receives complaints about more than just a lottery brought. -- fraud. >> right. this past year we began to see a complaint about romance schemes. -- scams. about 5% of complaint identified to 12 involved posture scams. they are somebody out to get your money. >> thank you. we will come back to you about how access to the system is made available to law- enforcement and how law enforcement uses the comments and complaints. i want to turn to jonathan. he is an expert on research into these types of fraud, to ask about research with respect to>> thank you. one of the king's law enforcement has lacked is an -- he things that law enforcement has lacked is an understanding of how prevalent these types of consumer scams can be. many times consumers did not report. partly because of embarrassment given the amount of money they have paid out. perhaps because they feel some sensitivity about what will happen if their adult children or rather than learn how much they lost. something like 200,000 residents of the u.k. have been victimized by romance scams. lottery scams, it seems clear to law enforcement that these types of scams are being targeted at the global consumer marketplace. it is one of the issues that concerns agencies and a growing number of investigators and police and prosecution services around the world. >> has the internet made these scams easier? >> in a word, yes. we continue to see many instances where scammers are using traditional methods from outside the united states into the united states. there is no question. what we're looking at involves a substantial exploitation of the internet. it saves time and money for the scarce and instead of taking the time to copy and mail out solicitations. now it costs you nothing to scam -- spam the world. unlike a traditional postal address, one has no idea in responding to an e-mail, where that person who sent the e-mail literally is. that is a feature of the internet that can be turned to the scammer's advantage if they said i am living in countries -- in country x and i want to establish a romantic relationship with you. that means it is more challenging for law enforcement to track down true points of origins and do things that can have impact. >> is it fair to say the criminal division is working mostly with law enforcement to understand how these types of frauds are going out and getting underneath these anonymous addresses or what are purported to be -- what are anonymous at this is where people purport to be in particular place? are there tools available for law enforcement to get underneath this? >> absolutely. criminal, civil divisions work closely. we do have tools that allow us to track down these schemes and take action. one of the keys is doing what we can to ensure more timely reporting live victims. people wait months or even a year more before the report these types of schemes. it does become more difficult for us to track something down. the sooner we know, we can take immediate steps to try to stop the money from going out or have the opportunity to trace that. these schemes have global reach. we also need to be more to share information. we cannot prosecute our way out of these types of consumer schemes. one of the ways to adjust that -- to address that is by working with law-enforcement to correct the relevant intelligence. to find out what everyone knows about these scams. those types of collaborations have become increasingly important to efforts to combat all types of fraud schemes. >> i would now like to turn to john with the national consumers league. the web site is broad.org. -- is fraud.org. can you describe that for us? >> fraud.org is the outgrowth of more than 20 years of consumer advocacy. it was an effort started through the alliance against fraud. the alliance brought together stakeholders to talk about emerging issues in fraud. fraud.org is an outgrowth of that. it was launched in the 1990's in response to victims of telemarketing schemes. -- scams. we were able to have one of the first hot line where consumers could call in a report being victims of scams. as the internet has become the mode of choice for scammers, fraud.org has become a way for consumers to come to a trust organization and submit complaints and education about different kinds of scams. we have articles on the side. -- the site. everything from romance scams to lottery scams to mortgage scams, you name it. we recently re-launched the site. all the information has been reorganized to make it easy in searchable for consumers to find. it was important to us that all of our information was easily shareable. we are a nonprofit organization. consumers are reticent to report scams. they are either embarrassed by how much they are lost or were about what their kids are going to do. sometimes the consumers may action be involved in the scheme, helping some how to find new leads for other scammers. the latest is that only 26% of americans trust in government. we have spent around since 1899. some consumers may not want to act with a government agency. we have been around since 1899. we have a great historical record to a working with consumers. we review complaints where the consumer seems to be in imminent danger of sending money to a scam artist to directly contact them and provide them counseling. we also send complaints about. -- out. we have a network of more than 90 federal, state, local and international offices. the ftc consumer database is one of those we have contributed to for a number of years. out of that date, we produce reports, look at trends. we rely on partners in spotting trends that help us decided what to focus on in our initiatives. >> thank you. you are a federal prosecutor in the criminal division of the department of justice to read one common method that fraudsters use is wire transfer agencies. you recently worked on a case involving money gram. could you describe the allegations and said that case and how was result? -- was resolved. >> money gram is an excellent example of the collaboration we been talking about. we work closely with the ftc. i had two great postal workers who were lead to investigators on the case. what these fraudsters do after they find their victims, they still need to find a way to get money anonymously. what we have seen increasingly is wire transfers. banks tend to require more information. these money services businesses do not. you basically show up with cash. money grams are in just about every walmart. there are 270,000 locations worldwide. you fill out a form and money is available for pick up within 10 minutes. so it is fast. what these fraudsters did was they realized it was relatively easy for them to corrupt some of these agents, some of the people offered the outlets. money gram had poor due . -- due diligence thatthe fraudsters themselves would open money gram outlets. this happened over a number of years. many consumers complaint directly to money gram. the their fraud department collected this information and they started to see a trend. certain agents had high levels of fraud. the fraud department recommended they be terminated. many of the bad outlets were not closed. the fraud was allowed to perpetrate for many years. at this point, we have brought charges against 34 money gram agents. they admitted to creating and abetting fraud. they did not have the proper systems in place. they agreed to completely overhaul the way they were doing business to prevent this from happening in the future. and take extra steps to protect consumers. they agreed to pay $100 million in conjunction with the postal service. we are working to give that back to victims. anyone here today, anyone watching, if you know of someone who may have been evicted -- who may have been a victim, we set caught up a hotline. call, and leave your information. we are going to the process now and our hope is to return as much of this money as possible to the victims. >> thank you. inspector campbell, in addition to the work postal inspection surface dust to investigate and combat lottery fatah, the postal service has started a public-service campaign -- lottery fraud, the postal service has started a public- service campaign. >> can you turn down the lights? >> >> i will set up the video for it is about a caregiver to try to convince her mother not to continue to give money. >> we will try that in the back for a moment. this video is about a minute long. [video clip] >> i think you hate me. >> i cannot hate you. what are you going to tell me. you will never what? >> send any more money out. >> and today is january 27. >> okay. i swear i will not send any more money out. >> great. i would love that to happen. when you get these calls from jamaica, you should put the phone down. >> okay but i swear i am not going to send any more money out. i think you hate me. >> i don't hate you. >> inspector campbell, can you talk about this video and the campaign in general? >> in my history as a postal inspector, one of my high levels working with jonathan lash and taking a team of inspectors to nigeria. the other highlight took place yesterday. in our partnership of working with aarp, we have sent out a postcard mailings to over 25 million homes. we did not just randomly send them out. we used data from our partners here to look at residents over 70 years old. then to look to see where they had caregivers in a close proximity. yesterday, working with aarp, a person called that fraud fighter hotline and said they were holding the card in their hand and they received a call from jamaica. she told the person i have this card in my hand that says this is a scam and she hung up. that is what this is all about. what's going to help this problem is to educate not only the elderly individuals but also caregivers. when sonia came, it was already too late. just yesterday, we kept somebody from becoming a victim. that could be my mother, your grandmother. that is a lot to me. what we're doing is we put these pamphlets in over 30,000 retail outlets. the have a consumer alert news network -- we have a consumer alert news network and are doing consumer awareness and media alerts. we are working with aarp to attack this problem. >> chuck, from your perspective, what should an elderly person or a child of an elderly person or calvin -- or care giver do if these calls start coming? we should note the scammers are persistent. >> there are a variety of things anyone should do. if they think a parent is getting these calls, they should engage in conversation. you can do your own research. make that research note to your parents and loved ones. and there is information online about lotteries and romance scams. all that and permission is -- all that information is available at ftc.gov. there are clear and concise terms. it helps you. why you're getting information, why not get it for your neighbors and friends as well? it is much more meaningful if a friend or neighbor talks to you or had a senior community center. you can download information from the web site. if you're not into downloading, we can mail it to you for free. you can take it with you to a consumer center or a senior center or other center and talk to them about it. you can become the neighborhood expert on how to combat fraud. join us in our efforts. you can prevent lottery fraud. >> law enforcement is still key. if you believe that you have been a victim or a friend or neighbor, please reported. -- please report it. report to the ftc. there are many places. you can forward it to your local attorney general's office. many that will be reported to us. take the time to report it. let us know about the problem. >> thank you. i like to turn to jonathan and craig from the criminal division in working with our office at the consumer protection branch. yes, we have heard a number of panelists a that we can prosecute or rest ourselves out of this problem, but there are activities going on. law enforcement activity to prosecute people that are identified. is that a fair statement? >> absolutely. we have had quick success in dealing with different types of fraud schemes, even when based in countries like the netherlands or coaster rica. -- costa rica. we and partners have built a close working relationship. those relationship are good for us to have success in tracking people down. we have been able to have multiple individuals expedite foreign countries where they thought they were safe and were brought to the united states to stand trial to typically plead guilty to criminal charges for stock -- criminal charges. the sooner that we find out for consumers, that there is a scammer that is hurting them or some and they care about, the quicker that law enforcement can reenact -- can react to that. the more we can work in those jurisdictions where it appears those scams are based. one of the encouraging signs we have seen is that more and more countries like nigeria, ghana, spain, and other areas are not only looking to the united states to take action, but are initiating action on their own and bringing their own criminal charges. we share information and support. it is that mutual relationship that can have a meaningful impact in sending a strong message to the public that we are capable of and prosecuting these kinds of cases successfully. we are hoping it sends a message that we can regardless of where they are based track them down. >> craig, i want to turn to you about the money gram cases. if money gram does not abide by that agreement, what is the result in that matter? >> it goes perfectly with what we are talking about. it is important to hold these individual fraudsters behind bars. while working with these gatekeepers, in our prosecution, we require them to take steps that not only hold them accountable for what they did, but can help prevent these things in the future. that is what we have done in money gram. we hold them accountable. we made them get rid of the that agents. we also made them do a number of things going forward that will prevent this. it is called an anti-fraud alert system. it is based on information they are receiving from us. their sophisticated models that can attempt to detect fraud. they see wire transaction from jamaica. they will stop that and call the victim. they will say -- they will try to get details on it. if it sounds like a fraud, they stop it. that system has prevented over $100 million in fraud. we have required money gram -- these are international crimes. each country has a different standard for money laundering. we make sure that they apply to u.s. standards in all of the locations they have. if you are operating a money gram in jamaica, you have to follow u.s. money-laundering fraud standards. that helps dealing with things. we require money gram to provide the ftc with every complaint they received worldwide. that way they are aware and they can help law enforcement to out the world and be on top of these things. that is a challenge in this case. >> i would like to conclude by turning to john. what is your organization doing to educate consumers? you mentioned the hotline and contacting people. >> one of the things we will be working on in the coming months and years is trying to identify ways that we can reach consumers when they are at a decision point. there is a perfect example of someone getting the call from a scammer while holding a postcard about the scam in their hand. that is exactly the type of success we want to replicate. we want to make sure that is skilled. we are looking for opportunities to use data like the ftc in a way that makes it useful to consumers. the law enforcement database. many agencies are pulling data from it. we want to see if there are ways to make the data available to consumers, if not directly, so they can build tools on top of that area. i think we are looking for ways that we might be able to use data from other sources around the web to help build these types of tools. for example, we can have complaint boards across the internet. it is proliferating where consumers go to post complaints about legitimate companies. there are a few about fraud. law enforcement and people who want to build tools should have access as well. we are looking through our education on consumer it is fraud alert and we see trends in our own data. we'll have content available about new scams. we shut down one scam. another one would pop up. it is the whack a mole problem. having the ability to react to that in a more nimble way is important. >> thank you. john, john, craig, you have passed along some extremely valuable information to date. we appreciate your participation in the panel. >> thank you. [applause] [captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2013] [captioning performed by national captioning institute] >> tomorrow in committee hears about worldwide security threats. witnesses includ john brennan and robert miller. this is tuesday at 10:00 a.m. in the afternoon, the focus shifts to sec oversight. that is also on c-span2 are at 2:30 p.m. eastern. earlier today, live coverage. here is a little of what was said. >> it is difficult looking at the way our country cares for its veterans and trying to stomach this. most people do not understand the fight for care and services in this country is on going. it has been going after world war ii one, and it has done better, but is nowhere near its needs to be. the and implement for afghan an iraqi veterans is too hard. the suicide rate is too high. we lost more people to suicide in the military than in combat. most people do not know that. and the time that we have sat here, one veteran has committed suicide, every 65 minutes. most of them are elderly who are getting benefits that we are talking about cutting. the v.a. has a backlog for these benefits that is unbelievable. in the daily peace, there was a report -- in the daily beast, there was a report on the state of the v.a. backlog. it is much worse than we thought. veterans are usually waiting 300 days. in most urban areas, it is closer to 600. we are nowhere near where we need to be to care for the men and women who have been sacrificing over the last 12 years. i cannot believe this is on the table. i cannot believe we are talking about this, because what we are seeing is what veterans are seeing is the government is failing them every single day. every single day care and services for our veterans are failing. they say, times are tough, so we have to sacrifice a little bit, so we're going to cut your benefits. it is a punch and a face is a punch in the face. tell me about a veteran who cannot get an appointment at the v.a. within 50 days, tell that to families who have lost family members to suicide. you cannot go back to the same well, cannot keep bluewater, otherwise you will have people stop serving the military. you will have a national outrage, and this is something that we cannot accept, because this is what we are talking about. you cut through all the math, and we're talking about betraying the faith with our men and women who defend our country. that is really all that needs to be said about it. take you for your time invitation. i think aarp for bringing us here today, and i hope you go back to your boss's and you talk about this in the simple terms. this is just something that we cannot accept as a country. thank you. >> we cannot look back years from now and wonder why we did nothing in the face of real threats to our security and our economy. that is why earlier today i signed a new executive order that will strengthen our cyber defenses by increasing information sharing and developing standards to protect our national security, jobs, and privacy. >> there are some things that need to be done with an executive order, but some things can only be done with legislation. so part of my reaction is i wish the president had put as much effort into getting some legislation passed and then come out with the executive order. >> it has been around for a long time, cybersecurity, and we finished talking about it. we finished wondering what is going to happen because things are happening every single day that are destroying our intellectual property, taking away from our future, and people are casual about it. everybody is casual about it, but we are not come out and we cannot afford to be. >> a look at the president's recent cyber security executive order, tonight at 8:00 eastern on c-span2. >> of the things that an early american life was taught to do, she supported her husband's career, usually through entertaining. dolley was socially adept at politically savvy, so she could structure her entertainments in such a way that she could lobby for her husband under the guise of entertaining. she also thought it was important to create a setting in the white house, almost like a stage, for the performance of her husband and the conduct of politics and diplomacy. >> pollin madison. we will follow her journey from a young widow to a woman who history remembers. we will include your phone calls, comets, and tweets on "colley madison," tongihtt. >> a blogger says the time to act to eliminate the stigma surrounding mental illness is now. she along with other parents who have violent mentally ill children made pleas to children -- to congress last tuesday. this is about 2 1/2 hours. >> good morning. and thank you all for attending today's forum called after newtown, and national conversation on violence and severe mental illness. we are here to listen and learn from those who have lived lives of fear, worry, frustration, love, and compassion. the families of those with children who have violent mental disorders. since i became the chair person of the subcommittee on oversight investigations, we have begun examining mental- health programs across the federal spectrum in the wake of the tragedy in newtown. as i wrote last year, the common factor in many mass tragedies is an underlying mental homeless. the lessons for americans from the horrifying tragedy in connecticut is we had better take off our blinders and deal with such illness or we are sure to face the same problem again. it is not only in what is in a person's and that makes their act of violence, it is what is a nearby street in the course of history society has done with nindividuals dealing with mental illness -- this has resulted in shockingly counterproductive and cruel practices to the mentally ill. we have locked them in prisons, we have quarantine them as contagious, where house than in workhouses, and byrd them as witches. 50 years ago we release them out of hospitals by reasons we mistook for compassion. to many of them ended up on the streets without decent access to treatment. a majority of the mentally ill should be receiving care in the community setting, but for many with severe illnesses, the institutional as asian was a disaster. the aftereffects are still struggling to recover from today appeared to many fill our prisons and are left as wandering homeless. the majority of americans with mental illness are nonviolent and much more likely to be the victims and perpetrators of violent acts. that is why the subcommittee is working to identify what federal resources in support of research and care are being devoted to those among the mentally ill or most prone to violence. the severely ill who are not being treated. more importantly, what fraction of those resources are actually reaching the individual spirit a few years ago when this committee was reviewing my legislation, the senior packsacks that mental health act, i explained how health-care costs ballooned when mental illness goes under address. the costs to care doubles. further and treated mental illness increases other morbid it is. without of the care, our current system is wasting billions of dollars. while there have been calls for the need to increase funding, that is something we need to look at, the truth is total public spending for treatment is more than $140 billion. it is a 14% fold -- 14-fold increase. this massive increase not been accompanied by a meaningful increase in the quality of mental health services. the crisis we find ourselves in is not just a question of funding. the current citrus and the band's more intelligent targeting of funds toward the most promising research. funds must reach the level of patient, family, and dr. if there are to be effective. in this spirit we hope this form will enable us to discuss how to improve our efforts to identify the mentally ill and help their families. i want to thank the parents who are with us today. lisa long, pat milam, and peter earley. i want to extend our deepest sympathies to each of you. i think you for taking the time to be here and having the courage to share your stories with more stories should help other families and spur action to save lives. we are here to listen and learn. we are here -- we're going to hear stories of what america does not want to hear. a study published in february of last month she noted 76% of americans believe the mentally ill experience discrimination. the are here to bring mental illness into the light and find workable answers for mental illness which affects 11.4 million americans. this is a first set. the vast majority are not violent. this committee is committed to addressing the necessary question of how we can stop the violent from acting out and get them treatment before they harm themselves or others. we will continue to meet with parents, families, and patients who suffer from severe mental illness as we try to make sure a tragedy does not happen. i want to thank the ranking members for their cooperation and support drought this effort. this is a bipartisan effort as the subject matter deserves. i would like to give the ranking member to give remarks on her own. >> thank you very much, mr. chairman, and thank you for your your work for some many years on a dress and mental ls. it affects virtually every american family and doesn't discriminate based on political party. that is why it is important we are here today talking about this issue. i want to thank all of our panelists today. they have been helping us understand this important and complex issue. i want to welcome michael fitzpatrick the national alliance on mental ls talking on behalf of patients and their families. i especially want to add my thanks to the panelists that our parents of children affected by mental illness. the children are so lucky to have them advocating for them, i express my deepest condolences at the loss of your son, matthew. i know you did everything you could save him the and your honor his legacy by being with us today. mr. chairman, last december, our nation was united by tragedy when 20 children and six braved teachers were killed with their children at newtown. all of us have been there before. this time was different from all of the others. we have begun to engage in a really important and in-depth conversation about our views on violence, guns, and how we respond to mentally ill individuals in the community. i am confident that we can find consensus about reasonable solutions on a number of fronts to keep the killing machines. the tragedies have all revealed significant gaps in many of our systems, including our nation's mental health system. the perpetrators of these killings including newtown and aurora, and tucson, and columbine that is in my congressional district, they exhibit behavior associated with serious mental illnesses, but they did not get the help they needed at too many lives were lost as a result. we know a lot of mentally ill individuals do not receive the appropriate treatment because of the stigma associated with these illnesses today. or simply because they lack adequate health care coverage. the numbers are stark. the typical the lay between the psychosis and the start of medical treatment is 100 feet over two years. approximately 40% did not receive treatment in the past year. those numbers are acceptable. most violent acts are not committed by people living with a serious mental illness. and most people living with the serious mental illness are not violent. but if we can reduce gun violence by improving the mental health care system so that we are more certain of diagnosing in treating environmentally ill individuals, we can and must do so. the mental health parody act ensures that private companies provide coverage for mental health and substance abuse. it will extend health-care coverage to tens of millions of americans that would otherwise be underinsured. it is now clear to all of us that we can do more. this congress should be focused like a laser on reducing gun violence. comprehensive improvements to the mental health care system must be an important component of those efforts and will benefit millions of americans. thank you for calling this today. i look forward to hearing from our witnesses and continued cooperation on this issue. >> i apologize for my voice. frankly, it should not be a problem because i am here to listen. let me hear say that there is probably no one better qualified with your professional background to cheer the subcommittee and examine the connection to violence. i have no doubt that your partnership will thoroughly explore this major issue in topic of the day. in the days following the tragedy, the chairman and i discussed his leadership role and a somewhat unique ability to try to chart a course that can be bipartisan and make a difference in the lives of americans down the road. i welcome this today at the work that will continue to be done in the months ahead. >> would you like to make a brief statement? >> thank you for holding this form and leading the conversation about how we can identify and treat individuals with serious mental ls. i am pleased to be working with you to educate the congress and all americans about mental illness at a craft solutions for the challenges that we face in addressing the needs of those that suffered. i welcome our panelists including those that are here to testify. i know how hard it must be to share these experiences. i assure you that we are listening. you must not stigmatize those as being violent or potentially violent for the vast majority are not. the witnesses underscore the need for high-quality, mental that the health care. those living with serious illnesses, they faced it when it comes to being diagnosed. it will help expand coverage but won't solve all the problems. there is more stigma attached to seeking help, there are shortages in facilities and care givers to provide treatment. i appreciate you sharing your expertise on this issue. i hope we can find solutions to these problems. we are just democrats on one side and republicans on the other. -- not just democrats on one side and republicans on the other. the >> this will not be the traditional hearing. that we will hear from families and ask questions groups. the questions will be directed toward further data and explanation, we will hold off on speeches.c our guest was appointed to lead the institute of mental health in 2002. the residency in psychiatry, he was a founding director at the center for behavioral science and the diversity. he is one of the nation's leading child psychologist, completing his residency in psychiatry. they founded the child studies center. the group of psychiatric research from 2006-2011. a research psychiatrist specializing in schizophrenic and bipolar disorder. he trained at stanford, the executive director of the stanley medical research. in the most recent book, in detail the ways in which public policy has failed those. the founder and chairman of the panel in new york is a leading forensic psychiatrist and is regularly consulted in a range of complex cases. he developed a review protocols and has evidence based determinations', including input for the general public. a writer, blogger. he spent six years at the authington post and has offe ored 13 books. he was a finalist for the pulitzer prize. he works with mentally ill must advocate reform. -- mentall illness to advocate reform. efforts began after his son was diagnosed with bipolar disorder and killed himself in 2011. the the treatment that may have prevented the tragedy, he encountered numerous obstacles. a parent or a son with a mental disorder is joining us. the mother of the sun with a mental disorder, and in the immediate wake of the new town tragedy, the post was read by millions and recounts her difficulties raising a child mental disorders. and finally, the social worker was also the executive director of the national alliance for mental health in virginia. he served both as the director of policy research institute have the national policy director. they of senior management positions in nonprofit agencies in both mental health and primary health sectors. some of ourrn to parents to tell the story briefly. we will start with peter. >> thank you for having me here today. my son wears the face of mental illness, so i am grateful for each and everyone of you to be here and paying attention to this important subject. how would you feel if someone you loved killed themself? my colleague asked me that question we were speeding from manhattan to fairfax county, virginia. my son diagnosed a year earlier and the doctor putting him on medication. and when i picked him up that morning, they had been wandering around aimlessly for five days and he was convinced that god had him on a special mission. my son would laugh one minute and began sobbing that act. i asked him to take the medication and he screamed at me that pills are poisoned. leave me alone. i remember the nurse rolling her eyes when that he talked gibberish about got having him on this mission. by sunset i have had enough, i am going to leave. i grabbed a doctor and i said, please come in. he seemed like a nice guy, but i can't do anything to help your son. unless a person had posed an imminent danger to himself, he could not be forced into treatment or required to take out. my son told the nurse he thought those pills were poison. the doctor said, there is nothing i can do. they said to bring your son back. i watched him sink deeper into a mental a bus, he had tinfoil wrapped around his head because he thought the cia was reading his thoughts. he broke into a stranger's house to take a bath and luckily, no one was there. it took five to get him out. i raced over, a policeman was waiting outside. he said, before you go in there, let me give you a little advice. even though your son said he is off his medication, unless you tell the doctor that your son has tried to kill you, he will not meet the imminent danger criteria, he will go to jail, and you don't want that. i am here today to tell you with no great pride that i lied. i told that dr. that my son had threatened to kill me and it was good enough to get him taken to hospital. our insurance company called. he was not considered a danger in my son was charged with breaking and entering and destruction of property. what happened to my son, i learned, was not an aberration. people with bipolar disorder and a major depression, half a million are on probation and go through the criminal justice system every year. it is the loss angeles county jail. you have heard other people with mental disorders are not violent. but those like the virginia tech shooter at the tucson shooter give warning signs, how they are often helpless to stop them because of civil rights laws that sound noble but cause havoc when applied to someone with a brain disorder. i want his civil rights protected. changing criteria is is a much- needed first stab and will do no good unless you have somewhere to get treatment. fairfax county, one of the richest in the nation had a two- week wait to get an appointment and a six-week wait to get a case manager and an eight-year wait for housing. he has been shot twice by the police with lasers. i hate to admit this, but i will. there was a time when my son and had not been born -- or what i wished how much my son had not been born. my son is doing great, he has a job, he lives on his own and he pays taxes. he would not know that he has a mental ls is one of the fortunate ones that finally, after nine years, so don't tell me that we can't help people with mental illness. i have seen it. it is not a problem of us not knowing what to do. it is a problem of us just not doing it. all the pain he and doors, the pay and my family has suffered, and the fear that he causes others could have been avoided, the of this should have happened. why do we treat the head differently than the body? we tell our daughters and our sons, you are sick, but we're not going to help you until you become dangerous. and then when they become dangerous, we blame had punished them. in that scenario, tell me who is the crazy one. [applause] >> i am not a public speaker and this will be tough for me. i hope he will endure me a little bit to go through this. my wife and i who is here today, we have gone through a lot and i will try to give you an example of just a short part of our time, of our life. i am trying to show you what the misery is like. keep in mind, i don't speak just for us because through the tragedy, everywhere i go, every expert in person that i talked to says that is news? we have heard that. it is not something that is rare. it is happening out there. a few things different about me, i middleclass. we have corporate insurance. it is not a matter of asking for funding, we had an insurance policy that we thought was there to protect and give the best medical coverage to our son. in april of 2011, matthew was doing good. he started becoming paranoid and started seeing things. a lot of young men see things and become paranoid. he went to his doctor at told his doctor i am going crazy. he had seen a psychiatrist for six years. a few weeks later, he drove himself to the emergency room, walked into the hospital and said i want a brain scan because my brain is leaking, somebody whispered to me awhile back i'm dying. they believed him enough to give him a brain scan. at the same time, the executive commitment or, when the doctors came back, he asked them to prove who he was. he went to see the doctors more and more. he went them to make -- he told the doctor he was paranoid and did not know if he was living in a program. he thought he was living in a computer program. they told the doctors that the aliens from another world were coming to get him. and we had not discovered who is living under the earth. under the sea. he is telling us during these visits, all these kinds of things but other than that, he loves life. he tried to commit suicide twice before the last time. he wanted to go back. kind of like driving down the highway, he was doing fine and wanted to comfort there. i can't tell you the horror is to have a child behind you going down the interstate highway. a place to save him, he tells you if you stop the car, i will jump out and kill myself. when that is a nightmare scenario for parents that have to live through that. they treated him and a few weeks later, they let him out. he is, again. -- home again. we think we have made it good this time. i and left the house for about five minutes at a black car drove up in front of the house. my wife was having breakfast with matthew. he saw the black car, went crazy, he did not know what to do. he went in the bathroom and drink bleach and then he grabbed the knife out of the kitchen and cut his throat. he did not c cut didarotid artery all the way. blood was everywhere. as i was chasing him down, he said that the more you chase me, the more my heart will bleed into the quicker i will die. i was successful in tackling a 24-year-old man in saving him for the ambulance. he lost 2 liters of blood. a week later, they let him out. in the meantime, he goes back to the regular psychiatrist. the records of his normal psychiatrist in august, he was an extremely high risk for suicide or other bad outcomes. i assumed that something would be done. nothing was done. two weeks later, the doctor writes the same notes. my side and i were not getting along. i can only assume that my wife or i might be the other bad outcome. we go along until october. october 6 was the day i was home for a little while and i decided i am going to check his room and see how he was doing. he had been sleeping in my bed with me. with me and the dog for three months. we are bonding, doing better. it was not that, he was terrified. he was scared to death that they were coming to get him and the dog and i would protect him. everything looks fine, he has passed a drug test and everything is great. i found propane tanks, gasoline cans, flares, rat poison. nail, hammers. i'm terrified again. i call the local police. they see everything. and the police department was nice, compassionate, wonderful people. they said it is not against the law. call us if you have any trouble. they left. i confronted my son. trouble into, they took him to the hospital. they were going bill let him go and said there was no reason to keep him. he was in the hospital for seven days. i told the doctors he was hallucinating. workers that were working for may, a psychiatrist friend of mine, they said if you let him out, he will kill himself. i brought six or seven documents i thought would prove my son was going to kill himself. the last day, they said your side is good to go. -- son is good to go. they explained the role of a psychiatric hospital setting. and basically, their interpretation and my interpretation is to stabilize and release the patient. they kept him six or seven days, let him go. the words i you used, i was enraged that they let him out. they said it was a delicate bond and i said he would never take his medicine from the other doctor that happened to be in the same building and they never talked to him. he was about to kill himself and never consulted his primary physician. a week later, he made breakfast, asked me if i wanted some eggs, he said he was going upstairs to get ready. he opened theirs, propane tanks, he made an improvised bomb from a shotgun shell. gasoline and propane. he locked the door. at which time, he made a fuse out of sparklers that most kids have. he made the bomb that killed himself. i talked to the fbi about this. one tank of propane is equal to 33 pounds of dynamite. it would have leveled the house and kill the seven neighbors. the one last comment i will make for this group is that good people will die today. more people will die today. good families will be destroyed because we are not doing anything about it now. we are now, but we should have yester day. thank you for letting me come here and letting me tell my story. [applause] >> thank you. we're now going to turn twoards -- towards liza long joining us through teleconference from idaho. i will let you tell your story. >> thank you, chairman murphy, thank you for letting me address you about what it is like to be the parent of a child with mental l mess. on december 14, 2012, i was driving my son to an acute mental health hospital and the world changed. i wrote a post entitled thinking the unthinkable which included the shocking statement, i am adam lanza's mother. i'm not adam lanza's mother. i'm michael's mother. i love my son but children like and and people like us need help. my son has been diagnosed with special conditions. he has medication to control his unpredictable rages. when i asked michael what he wanted me to tell you, tell him i'm not a bad kid. tell him wane to be well. mic is not a bad kid. -- michael is not a bad kid. we continue to manage mental illness through the criminal justice system. when loving parents can get access to services is having their child charged with a crime. my son entered the system one month after his 11th month. while on probation he received therapy and rehabilitation, which taught him coping strategies. once he completed it those services went away. before my blog went away i thought i was the only mother in america who is living in this fear. i'm far from alone. parents like me live in all kinds of fear. we live in fear of stigma. will my child be bullied? will my child be the bully? we live in fear of that unpredictable behavior. how do i know that my child is going to explode? how do i keep my other children and myself safe? we live in fear of the future. more what happens -- what will happen when my son turn 18? will he harm himself or others? parents like me are struggling physically, emotionally, and financially. mental illness is hard to talk about. stigma more parents and children is real. as long as parents continue to suffer in silence the magnitude of this problem will only be recognized after tragedies like newtown. i wrote in my blog that it is time to talk about mental illness. it is time to act. what do parents like me need from you? we need access to community-based resources, we need early intervention. we need increased funding for the disability acts as well as funding for school counselors. we need increased research funding for treatment and most after all, we need a national commitment to end the stigma that surrounds mental illness. as long as we keep treating mentally ill children in prison, it is difficult if not impossible to achieve equal between mental health. it is a bipartisan issue that keeps children and their families from enjoying life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. we have need to explore creative ways to provide a better life for children, families and community. thank you. >> thank you. we appreciate that. we all heard these moving stories from these parents and i would like to start this die log to talk about this. let me start off with asking dr. koplewicz. you were referred to this as an epidemic. could you talk about this. clearly these parents are not alone. there are many more. could you comment briefly on that. >> i think america treats illness above the neck differently than that i do to below the neck. we have 15 million children and cheerns who have a psychiatric disorder or a learning disorder and less than half get any help. that sun acceptable. the ones that do get help, it is questionable how effective the help is. one big problem has to be address, which is stig map this country has tackled with aids, cancer, and yet, people are so ashamed feeling it is their fault or their child's fault or somebody's fault, not the fact that these kids have a no-fall brain illness that prevents them from doing what they are supposed to do. until the country speaks up for kids and say it is real, it is common, it is treatable in the same way that f.d.r. tackled polio or the way that bush and clinton tackled aids. there is no way these problems will resolve. when you're afraid you're not going to get help. the fact that the ranking member tells us it takes two years from the time you get symptoms to the time you get help. i think the last time i was here we talked about a rash. if anyone got a rash on their right arm it would be two or three hours before we put something on it. if we could not wear our shirt two days later because of the rash we would see the doctors. if we were still statutorying at it two days after that we would be at a dermatology office. we don't treat mental illness equal. one of the things that has been talked about, which is disconcerning if anyone in here started to have chest pain right now and complain about chest pain and radiating down their left arm and we called for emergency, immediately e.m.s. would council member here. if any of us acted like we were disturbed and started yelling and cursing and jumping on the table, we would call the police. e.m.s. is not trained to treat diseases above the neck. we have parents that are forced to lie to get them into the largest mental health care system, which is the juvenile system. there is not enough people doing this work. you have 15 million children who have the disorders. the math doesn't work. only the way it could work if primary care physicians have to be better trained. there is not a better time to do it. you have the affordable health care act now. unless you have certified, unless you have some sort of education, in these kinds of disorders you won't get reimbursed that the rate, you will get reimbursed at a lower rate. or if you have the certification you will get reimbursed at more. we have to be senseable thb, we have to find social workers who want to be trained in evidence-based treatments who work under a psychiatrist. the last piece is, we're not doing enough research. we clearly, -- firms have stopped using funds for the research. they need more funds to look at child pediatrics. most mental illness occurs before the age of 24. the biggest return of your investment is identify these kids early and treat these diseases effectively but as soon as they show their face, not after years of symptoms. >> i should let the members know, i'm going ask another question. if you want to be recognized to ask a question for clarifying, i will keep it in order. starting out first with this theme of is mental illness treatable? you heard these parents talk a -- you hear call the police. they are not trained in handling these things. if you look at the overall effectiveness of treatment. what is the cost of doing things through criminal justice system as oppose to the health care system? can you give us some insight to that? >> i will try. thank you for doing this. i think this is -- in the 10 years i've been meeting with congress i think this is the first time to have a forum, which is very important. the specific question about what do we lose by moving this into the criminal justice system is what you've heard already from the parents who are here that you're talking about people are not getting treatments. they are treatments, they are not as good as we like but there are treatments that help. in cancer and heart disease they don't help everyone as much as we need and we need a new generation of interventions. some could be medications and some could be in the psycho social realm. what we have is not good enough. an important immediate is how to get the next generation of medicines together. what we lose, of course, in terms of outcomes is, as you mentioned in your question is more expensive to do it through the criminal justice system but it is most expensive because it does not work well. what you end up with visits -- peter probably knows more about this because he lived this. it is not the way to manage serious medical problem. the criminal justice system, by the way, would tell that. they this is not what they are looking for. we do not have a system that is there to address the need. this is what we're currently forced into. it is not the community resources, it is not the hospital beds, it is not the crisis centers, we're forced to respond in an acute way. >> is it more severely for the severely mentally ill? >> i think we need to be clear about the definitions of what we're talking about. what you will hear about today is a group of people what we call severe mental illness, it is about 5% of our population, maybe slightly less. maybe it is 4%. these are truly disabled. like the young people you have heard about they have a mental illness and it could be, mostly a danger to themselves, potentially to others. definitely in need of aggressive treatment to help them get through this psych tick episode. the difference here, you've heard this in each of the stories we heard about today, what makes these disorders so vexing and different than diabeteses or hypertension. at the very core, there is a loss of insight. they don't realize that they are ill. if they do, at the moment, they reject the notion they need help. you heard that in each of these stories. that is what makes this so difficult to contend with. that is why these are not just individual disorders, they are family problems. that is why they involve the criminal justice system and that is why it is so difficult to get our arms around this. this is not issues you talk about like diabeteses, hypertension, other forms of heart disease. they can bring themselves for treatment. here you're talk about parents trying to advocate for their children and children cannot advocate for themselves. >> it is almost as if the disease is on the wrong side. when you have a cancer the doctor and the patient are fighting on the same side. here, you have the patient is embracing the disease because it is affects their judgment and affects their ability to accept help. >> thank you, mr. chairman. this is wonder. thank you for doing this and thanks to our witnesses for coming. this is powerful. i've worked on mental health issues for years. i think we need to work hard to address this. i want to talk about some of the issues around the violent offenders we've seen laterly, the people who have mental illness. one i think i heard from people in my district, we learned a couple weeks ago when we had a briefing that some of these mental illnesses, bipolar illnesses that can lead to violence, mostly suicide. sometimes rarely, to violence against others, ironically it starts to manifest itself in a man among the late 20's and women is the mid 20's. that is the same time when they turn 18 so the parents don't have legal -- we've been hearing this from some of the witnesses today. so you have a kid that is 19 or 20 who startings saying, things that are, you know, the c.i.a. controlling me and things. when the parents try to get help they are told you don't have any legal ability to do anything. you can't get some kind of a hold on them in a mental health facility and all of this. so my first question, are there legal barriers, mainly in state law or federal law to helping these young people who are exhibiting mental illness get the kind of help they need because of what dr. koplewicz says, they are on the side of the illness not on the side of their parents or the doctors. my second question is, what kind of things -- it is related to -- what can we do if we look at our health care policy on a national basis to start to really focus on some of these violent young offenders who are exhibiting mental illness. >> let me ask dr. welner to respond to that. >> first of all, i want to thank you for inviting me to pa tis update in such a meaningful program. i want to acknowledge the importance of the stories we are hearing today. hearing for the first time i have a slightly different orientation than some of the others here. you have to hear every story that it relates to no way of anything you heard before. i found in listening to the three parent stories that the common element was a law that can be changed. the three of you have come up with something that can easily be remedied at the legislative level. what am i talking about? first of all, commitment law. now the commitment law is of such that you have parents and loved ones that are forced to lie in order to get treatment. we just heard the difference between the medical model and the mental health model. in the medical model, if a parent is concerned and they say my kid is sick. nobody says let's see if the doctor says if they sick. the parent says i'm caring for this child, i'm the person who might god forbid, bury this child, i think my kid is dangerous. the law says that is not good enough. a mental health professional, even with of the best training has the power to define rather than the parent who can give stories like what we heard, which are many detailed than any clinical history than we will ever get in an emergency room setting. you could change that law in a minute to allow for the caregivers to have a say who who defines dangerousness. that is from this panel today. secondly, how can we as mental health professionals -- this gets back to psychiatric illness, newtown, i would n't generalize across mental illness but the most relevant stomach to newtown is paranoia. say you're interviewing a paranoid patient. what kind of history are you going to get? the family is essential. but the hippa law says you can't talk. let me get this straight. you as a family member are going to take the patient back, but you can't have access to the doctor who has well-meaning efforts to provide care have to be handed off to you. with no owners manual for mental illness and no manual for managing something that you have no profession at training. have a nice life and good luck. you as legislatures could change that overnight. why is it that parents are not empowered to impact decisions about dangerousness? why is it that parents or maybe not parents or maybe financial caregivers, why is it there is not a natch open line of communication where people can get clinical history passed off to them? these are solutions. i want to give others a chance to speak. those of you who have access to this proceeding and who may watch it one day and who may have struggled with mental illness, never forget the pain of the milans. you may feel suicidal but somebody loves you. when you go you will ruin them for ever. think about that while you're here. think about the pain and the break in so many people who will love you forever when you are here and gone and don't do it. thank you. >> thank you, doctor. >> clearly what you've heard today is we need a better and tighter mental health system. there is no other system in this country that -- there was a report in 2009 and we found there were vareabilities from county to county in terms of what services are available. the laws are legal barriers from families to have access from information that they need. families and caregivers see things first and they are on the front lines. they need to have the ability to access the system. you need to take a close look at the hippa laws and other laws that relate to health laws generated by university centers. many families and individuals experience mental illness when they are 17, 18, 19, or 20, they are on college campus. feabs are blocked from having -- family members are blocked from having conversations. the laws in the country, the idea and this has happened to my family and in our national offices, we get thousands of these calls from family members being blocked from admission from in patient units. the reality is we have fewer in patient units than we had four years ago. what we need to do is extend the commitment standards beyond eminent dangerousness as you have heard today, to soften them for grave disability or treatment. we need to simplify the process to allow people to get into the hospital and get diagnosed and get the treatment they need. so taking a look at all the laws is essential along that has been said a couple of times, the work force issues. 5% of the counts in this country, there is no practicing social worker or psychiatrist. the issue is how do you get care when you get out of the hospital? who do you get referred to? do you get referred to the right services? are we funding the services that really make a difference? i would say there is one dollar that funds services to persons with mental illness and we need to make sure we spend that dollar in a way that gets the job done. >> i just wanted to add i'm more of an optimism. in my lifetime, i've witnessed the treatment of sex offenders go from zero to 60 in a matter of years. people who are deemed to be dangerous to the public they are quickly ushered off the streets. i have also witnessesed, in all of the lifetimes of the people in this room, homeland security from scratch. i believe that if we created a growth industry, not only of child sick tri but also of treatment for the significant mentally ill who don't just need to be committed but kept in a facility where ongoing work can be done so it is not a resolving door for them because of the public risk. absolutely it can be done. that's why we're all here. >> just one quick formal-up. the other thing they didn't say is that whole age group that is in transition. people that become an adult in supported education, in case management exists. what happens is you have a 19-year-old who lives at home, their peers are gone off to school. they are out working the last piece is for most families in the country they did not grow up with a psychiatrist. we grew up with a clergy or a primary physician. most people talk to their clergy first then their general practitioner. it takes them a long time to get them into the mental health care system. >> i'm a great believer in learning from previous events. in virginia, we had the horrible virginia tech shooting. i'm glad to see the congressman from virginia here. i was on abpanel to rewrite our commitment laws and we changed it. we changed it to substantial likelihood of danger. we thought it would make a change. the next year, the legislature cut $50 million and today, i.g. report came out that 70 persons who fit the old standard of a danger to themselves or others are treated in the hampton roads area because there is no beds. chicago was in iowa, they were telling me they had people in emergency rooms 24, 48, 36 hours because there is no place to go. my own son had to wait to find a bed. you have to understand, dr. welner hit it on the head, that you need to change the commitment law but you can't do that unless you back it up with other laws because there is no place to go. >> can i just make a quick comment? what makes it worse in virginia is we have a hospital that is dedicated to mental health in many ways that has empty floors because they don't have the money to open up the floors. >> thank you, mr. chairman. i appreciate you having this hearing. and for the witnesses for sharing their stories. we talked about this a little bit but i appreciate you and your wife being here. condolences for you son matthew. the expense that you went through and you talked about in your testimony, i don't know if it is a disconnect but the treatment center did not talk to your primary care physician. it seems with mental illness and physical illness there is a different approach in how it is done. my mom battled cancer for years. over the course of the period, you saw an evolution on how doctors treated the physical illness and engaging the family more to cure not just the medical part but to have the family interact in the process of healing. do you see a similar approach on the mental illness side? or do you see a barrier when your son would come home -- did they talk to you about what you're seeing in your son and when they send him home and they said you should work on these things or is it we're done and he's back to you? >> in my opinion, the doctors don't want to talk to you. up until -- there's no box to check. there is no bill for that visit. when my son was put in the facility as an in-patient, his primary psychiatric doctor was at the same facility who he had seen for six or seven years and never talked. i would like to get the answer to that one day. i don't know how you find out the most information you need about a patient that is suicidal or has weapons of mass destruction in his house without talking to the primary care psychiatrist and finding out the background. he would also found out that matthew was not goi

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