home depot, target, sony's playstation as well. this week on "the communicators" we're going to discuss data breaches with wade baker of verizon, and verizon has put out a data breach report for 2014. mr. baker is the chief technology officer and security director for verizon enterprise solutions. what does that mean, mr. baker? what a do you do? [laughter] >> guest: well, we research security technologies, try to bring those technologies into our product so that we secure corporate networks and consumers as well. >> host: what's the definition of a data breach? >> guest: an unauthorized individual or could be a group gains access to nonpublic information, is the clearest definition of it. so it could be corporate secrets, could be personal information, could be e-mails, any kind of information that you don't want the public to see. >> host: what are some of the major conclusions of your 2014 data breach informations report? -- investigations report? >> guest: major conclusions are that this thing is getting more and more complex every year. we see a wider variety of attackers. ten years ago in the security space we mainly worried about network worms that would roam around the internet very fast and knock servers offline, but now we're worried about large scale denial of service attacks, eastern european organized crime that targets banks, we're worried about advanced threats that are centered on espionage. so the problem has gotten much more complex. >> host: joining our conversation today is joe marks of politico, technology reporter. >> hi, peter. so, wade, the focus in the last couple months especially has been on these big point of sale attacks that are happening between when you swipe your card and when the information goes to the company. can you tell us why these seem more prevalent and if we're particularly vulnerable at that moment? >> guest: we are. so a lot of people are aware when they buy something online that, oh, i need to make sure this site is legit, and i'm a little worried about entering my payment card, but we just don't think about it when we with swipe at a terminal, and i think that's because we've done this for a long time, we're used to the technology, it's less mysterious. but signs you swipe that card, that -- as soon as you swipe that card, that data is transmitted outside, and there's many points in that chain where that could be compromised. and these things are happening every day. >> they seem to be the biggest breaches, especially the one recently at home depot and, of course, the target attack last year except your report says as of 2013 at least, these were decreasing, is that right? >> guest: they are decreasing, but i think there's an important distinction. so if -- we've been doing this report for seven years, but we have ten years of data. so it's a nice -- you can see changes in the threat landscape over that time. several years ago we saw very large banks and payment processers that were compromised, and those were very big breaches. then we had an era where it seemed like a lot of mom and pop shops, small and medium businesses were compromised on point of sale devices. and now in the last year it seems to have shifted back to larger retailers. so numerically speaking, we saw fewer. but as far as the amount of data compromise, i think it's much larger just because those are larger breaches with a lot more impact. >> and most of the time when this happens it seems t not necessarily itself, but it's some -- the store itself, but some third party that is able to access all this information. can you explain this whole big ecosystem, and is there a way to possibly make it safe? >> guest: yeah. it's a frightening web once you start digging into it. and this, by the way, doesn't only exist in retailers. this is pervasive, just the supply chains that we all are a part of are increasingly large and complex. but specifically these retailers, a point of sale system is in a store, and that store is part of many other stores. and it could be across multiple different chains under one umbrella management. so these things are all going to be networked. very often in retailers there's not a local security team that is there to take care of that point of sale system, so you hire a third party, and their responsibility is managing and protecting and maintaining that point of sale system. so anytime you add a third party to the mix, you add a way that they need to be able to access that point of sale system, usually remotely, and that also opens up the door potentially for an unauthorized individual hacker, whatever you want to call them, to exploit that vector as well. and that's what happens in a lot of these. they steal the password of the third party that's managing the system, and they access them just as though they were the ones that were authorized to do so. >> and in the case of target, the inroad was the hvac company which you don't necessarily expect your hvac company to have the best internet security. that's not their expertise. is there a way to force some overall security on this ecosystem? >> guest: there have been many attempts. you bring up another very interesting point about not only are there more third parties in the mix and every time you add somebody, you add another vector of attack, but we're also putting more things on the network. so, you know, the fact that an hvac is connected to a network that is connected to another network that your payment systems are connected to is something we tend to forget about as we add complexity to our networks over time. and there should be, many of the regulations state when you have a payment network, it should be completely firewalled off and isolated from anything else. but it's like an old house, these networks have grown up over time, and all of a sudden you knock down a wall, and you find another passageway to another part of the house. >> host: wade baker, has wireless added to this problem? >> guest: most definitely. so, and going back to retail stores, not only do you have the wire line network, but you have wireless systems could be for employees to access, could be for inventory payments, could be for rfid and blue tooth and those are automatically registered. so, absolutely, an attacker could sit in a parking lot, and if that wireless network isn't secured, they can gain access just by sitting there remotely. >> host: your investigations report -- which, by the way, is online at c-span.org/communicators -- you talk about nine different types of hacks, and one of those is an app attack. what is that? >> guest: so we have all been on the web, and we have all used some type of online web application. we'd call it a web site or something like that, and a lot of people don't realize that it looks like a page of words, but that's actually a server in the background connected to the internet somewhere running a web application. and sometimes those web applications do various things; they'll take your data in you fill out a form, return information back to you, let you manage your bank account, play with facebook or whatever you like to do online, right? so these web applications run on code, and anytime you have software or code, there can be vulnerabilities in that code. also software needs to be updated over time, so many times these things just stay on the internet, and they're not patched, they're not updated. again, people are familiar with this because you get updates on your home pc constantly, right? it's the same kind of thing. the bad guys know exactly where those holes are. >> you mentioned there are nine different categories listed in the report, and they run a huge gamut from one nation-state trying to attack another to attacks on banks to point of sale attacks where somebody's trying to get your data, to the syrian democratic army. are these things related this some ways? >> guest: some of them are. so one of the things we came up with those nine patterns was just because we, as analysts, were having difficulty getting our arms armed all of these. we would talk to many organizations, and many of them said, forget it, i can't keep up with the amount of threats out there, they seem so can diverse. so we did some analysis, and i won't go into the math, but basically, all these 100,000 incidents fit more or less within one of those nine buckets. and some of those are very much related. we have a pattern called crimeware, for instance, which is just malicious software that gets installed on a computer, and it does various things. we also have a pattern that's denial of service attacks. normally you wouldn't think malicious code running on a computer is related to denial of service attacks which are launched at a web server to try to knock it offline so it doesn't work anymore. but the fact of the matter is often malware gets installed on a system, and it joins that one system to a network of other systems that also have that same malware, and then as a unit these hundreds of thousands of systems -- >> and that's called a -- >> guest: distributed denial of service attack. they'll all be pointed at one web site. maybe you don't like their political stance or something like that, and just knock it offline so nobody sees it anymore. kind of their own separate part of the problem. >> there cases in which it's the same people who are hitting the defense department and also trying to steal your bank account information? >> guest: there is some of that. so there's a lot of the shadowy underworld that's difficult to track, but -- and there are some groups that are definite financially motivated. i mean, they do business to hack into banks and retailers, and they want to steal payment card information and personal information so they can translate that into cash. and then there are others that are firmly rooted in the more espionage working for a government type phase. but then there's this middle ground where we do see some movement in between and some shared tools that they use and also shared people as far as we can tell. so, yes, there is a connection, and i think that's one of the things that we as security researchers try to know, because the better we know our adversary, the better we're able to protect against them. >> host: so, wade baker, are these people sitting in their basement doing this? [laughter] is there an organized office? is this a government-sponsor ised entity? i mean, who are these people? >> guest: it's truly all of the above. we have worked with law enforcement agencies who have busted down doors and dragged people out of their basement, literally. we have also participated in fairly large scale arrests of multiple individuals that are very highly connected together, very well organized. they each have individual specialties and roles; someone writes malicious software, the others know how to wash the money and all of these things, just like physical organized crime. and then there are others that definitely are working on behalf of the goth. they have an office, there's picture pictures of it, there's recon photos and all that kind of thing, and they go to that building. that's their job, is to hack into companies and steal information on behalf of a government. >> host: is this profitable? >> guest: it seems to be, very much so, unfortunately. there are places i've seen some photos of some eastern european towns, for instance, that where just an insane number of people drive lamborghinis -- [laughter] and things like this. and a lot of that is the spam, the fake pharmaceuticals, the financial fraud and just tax fraud, medicare fraud and all of these things. it's staggering amounts of money that are at some point along that chain traced back to data that was stolen, stored at a corporation or government. >> host: verizon is an isp, a wireless provider. what kind of measures do you, does your company take to prevent attacks on your systems? >> guest: so we, of course, we are in many ways the playing ground that a lot of this takes place over. so it's very important to us to protect it. so i'll go back to the denial of service attacks that are an attempt to knock a company offline. could be government, could be a company. but that takes place over our network in many cases, and so we very often jump right in there with that company who's being attacked, work with them very tightly because the more that they're taked, it's also slowing down -- attacked, it's also slowing down our network and affecting other customers. so we try to shut that off as close to the source as we can and both preserve that company and our own network from. a data breach perspective, we're very often trying to find malicious communication taking place. we work with companies to protect them from ever having intrusions into their network, but also have a team that helps respond when something does go wrong, to respond very quickly and work with law enforcement, do notifications or whatever is needed. so it's at multiple levels. at the consumer and corporate level. >> host: joe marks. >> when you find someone on a network like that, can you give us a little bit of the play-by-play of how you get them off? do you kick them autoright away or -- out right away or check them out for a while? >> guest: it depends. a lot is what we know about it. if it looks like it's a system and maybe it's infected with malware and it's beaconing outside the network, a lot of times we'll recommend take that thing offline as soon as possible, wipe it and go from there. but in your more complex attacks, sometimes we do need to watch for a little bit and see what's going on, and we've worked with customers to set almost like network cameras on their networks to see, oh, okay, i see exactly what's going on here, and now we have evidence in the same way you would in the physical world, right? you need to catch them in the act, so to speak. so we can do that. many times it's putting evidence together almost like digital fingerprints. you can tell certain attackers by the way that they do things, the artifacts that they leave behind, and that traces back to certain groups, and a lot of times we'll work with law enforcement to go disrupt at that level because it's, unfortunately, often kind of a whack-a-mole situation in a company. you may think, you may only know about one system on their network that's compromised, but there may be, in fact, hundreds or thousands that are compromised. so you clean this one up, but then you pop up here and here and here and here. so that's one of the most difficult parts of responding to a wide sprad -- widespread incident. >> how can they compromise so many companies? can you explain that? what's a vector of infection? >> guest: sorry, sorry, it's just a way in the door. if i wanted to get into a house, how could i get in there? i could walk in the front door, i could break a window, if i really needed something difficult, i could tunnel up and come through the floor. of course, like any attacker you're going to take the easiest way, which is what most attackers do. and sometimes that's a vulnerability in a web application. sometimes it's sending a phishing e-mail to a user that they click on, and now that system is infected. and it opens a doorway, essentially, for an attacker to come in. so once they have we call it a foothold or some established ground inside that organization's network, then they can spread around because we all know how internal networks are. we just plug our systems in, and now they're part of the daisy chain of computers. and then they can just hop from computer to computer, a lot of times they'll go to the domain server that has all the user accounts, and they steal hundreds or thousands of passwords, and now they can do that. so that lateral spread throughout the network happens after that initial compromise takes place. and it can happen very quickly. they move quickly. sometimes it's very slow, but the idea is to get as deeply rooted and firmly entrenched as you can so that you see everything going on in the network from the attacker's perspective. >> phishing e-mails the kinds of things consumers are used to, click here to enter sweepstakes? >> guest: some are not quite as cheesy and obvious as those -- [laughter] some of them are, actually. the good ones will do a well-crafted e-mail, and let's say for some reason they knew that we were meeting today. they might send you an e-mail, hey, thanks for time today, thought you might find this article interesting. so they can make it pretty believable by knowing you attend ed a conference this certain time period or something like that. but as soon as you open that pdf document or whatever it is, you're infected and many times don't even know about it. >> so a lot of this is technology, but it's also social engineering. >> guest: absolutely. it's almost all of these advanced attacks start with an exploitation of a person and a relatively simple attack if you really think about it. you're tricking someone to click on something. >> host: wade baker, are there any regulations on the federal level that apply to all this? >> guest: there are numerous ones. so there are standards and regulations for how we protect systems, and there's many of them depending on, you know, is it processing payments, there's a set there, if you're storing government and classified data, there's another set of standards: so there's those. there's also increasing discussion on when an incident occurs, what you're responsible to report about it or disclose. so if you have information stored on individuals and that's compromised, then you have to report that publicly and notify the individuals. and there's more and more of this discussion taking place. it's not always regulated into law. a lot of it's voluntary, and i think it should be. but there's this realization that if we can share information, we're all together better aware of the situation that's really going on, and we can respond better. because our attackers are working together. i mean, that's the fact, so we as defenders got to share information as well. >> why is it better that information sharing is voluntary rather than something organized through the government or what's calls an isac? >> guest: so many times the isacs are voluntary. you can join and give information, and they don't can require that, okay, you have to tell me exactly these things on every single, every single bit. i think it's voluntary, better voluntary because you're going to get better information that way, you're going to really get to the root issue. so if we just make a law that says, oh, these things have to be shared, as soon as you make that law, now it's got to be updated and changed, and this situation we're in is very fluid, and it just seems to change quite drastically over time. so something needs to adapt to that fairly regularly. and the same thing with controls, you know? if i say here's the ten things that everybody needs to do today, one of the problems we've had in security is that those don't get updated fast enough. so there's a lot of complaint about that in the retail and financial sector. but information sharing is a extremely important, and there's a lot of very good reasons to do it that organizations are latching onto because they realize that if i share and i get information, that that's very helpful to me, and i'm also reaping the benefits and so are my peers when we do this. i think that in the last several years especially that has really increased, as far as i can tell. >> are there concerns from the other side that when you share information you're either giving up your own trade secrets or intellectual property, or you might be violating an agreement with a client? >> guest: absolutely. you're asking for perceptive questions. the things that i hear as far as concerns on information sharing, yes, i'm violating some kind of client privilege. i've done this, and i know something. should i be able to share that or share ab abstractions of that information with others so they can better prepare for a similar attack? concern about brand, right? if i share this and say that we had an incident, is this going to reflect negatively on me and look like i'm not prepared to deal with security? on that note, i mean, we're increasingly under the impression that, you know, the difference between secure organizations and nonsecure organizations often isn't whether or not they've ever had a compromise just because, i mean, it's a fact of doing business just like any other accident, but it's how well you prepare for and respond to those things. so you see organizations that take forever to figure out what happened and are very, very, very slow to respond, then there are some that are very quickly letting everybody know about it, they're open and honest, they deal with the situation, you know? it's often the difference between good and bad in that case. but there are some concerns. >> do you think that that model is understood by the public, that you can be breached well, you can be breached badly -- [laughter] and are companies explaining that to the public well enough, and is the public grasping it? >> guest: i don'ti don't know. i've done a little experiment with my family at holiday gatherings and stuff like that. i, over the last several years because i've been in this breach world, and, of course, when there's a breach, it's big on my radar. but i always ask, hey, did you hear about the such and so breach recently? for eight years i've gotten this, no, what are you talking about? it just reminds me how small my world is. but over the last year as i've asked that question, they have heard of this, you know? so somehow it's getting down on their level far more than it has in the past. i don't know if it's because we're all tired of having our credit cards swapped out so many times a year or getting the breach notices or what it is, but there's definitely an awareness, and i think some of that is the companies themselves driving that, government regulation. it just seems to be more of a buzz about it. >> host: wade baker, do you attend the black cat and defcom conferences that are held every year to talk with some of these hackers? >> guest: i attended, yes -- >> host: was it valuable for you? >> guest: it was, actually, it was. i think it's good to understand the perspective. some of those events are changing over time. black hat, for instance, is one that i like to go to because you can see people out there, hey, look at this attack i just figured out, and they're trying to get publicity for themselves. while that's, perhaps, not great and might even be part of the problem depending on who you talk to, it does give you perspective on how easy some of these things are. you see the latest attacks, you see some of the trends that are going. because as soon as these things are talked about in the public forum, you know it's just a matter of time before the criminals are using those exact same techniques. so it's a way to keep up. >> host: on a personal level, how often do you change your passwords and do you, for example, bank online or wireless? >> guest: i do bank online, and i bank on my mobile device. so i, i change my passwords pretty, you know, maybe every six months, to be honest with you. so i don't want change them that -- i don't change them that off. but the thing that i do can is i use a password manager. i do not try to make pup my own pass -- make up my own passwords. so i just outsource that to my little brain that comes up with a very complex password, and a lot of these programs are freely available for people to download are, i highly recommend one. and a lot of times they'll let you know, hey, there's been a breach with such and so. we see you have an account with this, you might want to change your password, and that's extremely helpful. so that's a tip that i just tell everybody, is change that. and i also always end able two factor authentication like through my mobile device if an online service or bank offers that. not only do i enter my password, but i'll get a little digit code on my mobile device that just makes it a lot harder for the criminals to gain access to your account. so always try to enable that as well. >> host: final question, mr. marks. >> every two or three months there seems to be, the password is dead, look toward to the end of -- look forward to the end of the password. is the password going to die anytime soon? >> guest: i hope so. [laughter] it probably, it probably won't completely die, but if you think about it, we have the means of getting over this. i think this has got to be a collective thing that we as consumers, as an industry, as retailers and banks, we need to get together and figure out how to do this. and i'll just throw some things out there about how easy this would be. so think about the fact that we enter a pass w0rd, and we have to remember it, sometimes we have to look it up, and that's how we gain access to all these important accounts that we have. well, you know, there's a lot of information that we could do passively. so most of us have microphones on our computers, and my voice is far more unique than my pass word. the way that i type, at a certain cadence is unique statistically. we have mobile device, most of us, and they have fingerprint readers on them sometimes. they have cameras. that's a little creepy, but you could look at it, and it would say, yep, you're wade. we know where that device is, and if that's in the same location as your exciter, that's a good catch -- as your computer, that's a good match. there's so many ways, but i just think we've gotten used to the pass word, and it was almost like a crutch now. >> host: the report put out by verizon is available at c-span.org/communicators. wade maker, joe marks, thank you. >> thank you. >> guest: thank you. >> c-span, created by america's cable companies 35 years ago and brought to you as a public service by your local cable or satellite provider. >> former acting solicitor general joins a panel today previewing the upcoming supreme court term. some of the cases will include racial gerrymandering of congressional districts, whistleblower protections and the religious liberties of prisoners. live at 5 p.m. eastern here on c-span2. >> c-span campaign 2014 debate coverage continues tonight at 7:30 eastern with the pennsylvania governor's race between republican governor tom corbett and democratic opponent tom wolf. thursday night at nine, nebraska's second congressional district debate between lee terry and state senator brad ashford. and next sunday, the iowa u.s. senate debate between democrat bruce braley and republican joni ernst. >> in testimony before the senate foreign relations committee, secretary of state john kerry reiterated there'll be no ground troops in the u.s. fight against isis. former u.s. ambassador to syria robert ford also testified. this is four hours. >> no more war! >> no more war! no more war! no more war! no more war! no more war! no more war! no more war! no more war! no more war! >> the committee will come to order. mr. secretary, you have a warm welcome. [laughter] having just returned from a coalition-building mission that will determine the breadth of support and course of thesion anti-isil strategy in the near and long term, you're here at a critical moment for the iraqi and syrian people, for the region, and for the united states and the world.ra let meqi say at the outset in my view the coalition you are working hard to build will require fully engaged and fully contributing senior partners. a coalition that must be defineu not by words, but by deeds. par a coalition that must be defined not by words, but by deeds. the u.s. can lead this coalition, but our partners, particularly sunni partners, must be all-in. and i fully acknowledge that getting skin in the game will be different for different coalition partners, but congress cannot be providing a black check for the anti-isil campaign. i'm pleased by the willingness of our partners in the middle east to support, fund and provide resources for this campaign. from cairo to amman to beirut, our partners are sending the signal to isil that they are not welcome that they have a bankrupt religious ideology and that they will be aggressively confronted. above all, the problems in iraq and syria that created an environment susceptible to isil's advance can only be solved locally. in iraq this means an inclusive government with a national agenda and leaders ready to empower the iraqi security forces and kurdish peshmerga forces to take the fight to isil. in syria, it means training and equipping a vetted syria opposition force that shares our vision for a pluralistic free syria, free of isil and all violent extremist groups, but also free of assad and his regime backers. this fighting force should be prepared to support a post assad political structure whenever the circumstances under which he ultimately leaves syria by negotiated settlement or other means much the president laid to you the a comprehensive holistic strategy that purports to provide the tools to defeat isil. what i expect to hear today is some specifics. the timeline for this mission, the scope, the resources in both personnel, funds, intelligence, military assets an assistance as well as roam our coalition partners in play. we must be clear-eyed about the risks before providing our enduring support for this operation. the fact is, we are living in 2014, not 2003. we must not repeat the mistakes of the past give inthe nature of the threat we face. this means clearly defining the objectives, the political end state that we seek through this anti-isil campaign. i want to hear what success looks like in iraq and syria across the region and what conditions will indicate when it's time to end military action. now, this is what we know about isil. what has brutally, mercilessly i barbarically followed through on its threats to kill american hostages james foley and steven sotloff. it beheaded british aid worker david haines on saturday and threatens to execute another british citizen, alan henning. it promotes genocide against anyone who does not share its warped version of islam, moderate sunnis, shias, christians, yazidis, minority, it enslaves women and children. it has seized u.s. and iraqi military equipment as built a formidable fighting force. it's pumping oil and selling it to the tune of $1 million a day to fund its brutal tactics, along with kidnappings, theft, extortion and external support. it is recruiting disciples for its unholy war at a frightening pace from europe, the u.s. and anywhere they can find disaffected people. these foreign fighters are crossing often from turkey, which either because of fear or maybe ideology has declined to participate to stop that flow of fighters and to counter isil. it has declared the territory it occupies a caliphate with intent to seize more territory from u.s. partners and allies from jord ton saudi arabia to lebanon. the risk to jordanian and lebanese stability is real, it's urgent and it's grave. we would be fools not to take this threat seriously. eyesle is an enemy of the united states and the civilized world. now, as i have said many times, temporary and targeted air strikes in iraq and syria fall under the president's powers, as commander in chief. but the military campaign lasts for an extended period of time, which i gather it will, it is my belief that congress will need to approve an icicle-specific authorization for the use of military force. i'm personally not comfortable with reliance on either the 2001 aumf that relies on a thin theory that eyesle is associated with al qaeda and certainly not on the 2002 iraq aumf which relied on misinformation. i expect the administration today and in the days ahead to brief this committee on its comprehensive strategy and the operational objectives by which we will defeat isil so we can draft an appropriate aumf to address the very grave isil threat we face. now let me be clear, i support the president's strategy and his sense of urgency and i come mend you, mr. secretary, for your efforts with allies in the region who also face violent and destabilizing threats from isil. let's not, however, make the 9/11 mistake of rushing into an aumf, an authorization for the use of military force, that has become the overriding authorization for the last 13 years, has about used for indefinite duration, and has been used from south asia to the persian gulf to africa and southeast asia. the fact is, we need to ensure that whatever authorization for the use of military force we consider is comprehensive and appropriate in scope and dur railings to meet the threat and sustain the fight. it is our responsibility to answer three fundamental questions, what will it ultimately take to degrade and destroy isil? how does this fight end? and what end state do we seek in the region? we need to get it right in my view, not just get it fast and in doing so, we need a bipartisan approach that puts politics aside and the nation first. this is a long-term effort and we in congress must be very deliberate in our consideration of any new strategy, new authorities and new funding that it will take to meet the new threat we face. i believe we need to defeat isil before they develop the operational capacity to perform a september 11th-like attack. i never want to lose as many citizens from my home state of new jersey or from the united states as we did on that day. that is our responsibility and it is our solemn obligation. with that, let me turn to the ranking member, senator corker, for his comments. >> well, thank you, mr. chairman, and i appreciate the full and broad opening comments you've made and the way you've expressed many of our concerns regarding isil and their capacity over time to harm americans. i know we're here a few days after the president publicly addressed this as the nation and many others around the western world, the civilized world are outraged over the conduct of isil and i know that americans are greatly concerned about, over time, the effects they might have on this nation, as you just expressed. we are also here exactly one year and two weeks after in this very room this committee voted out an authorization for the use of force in syria is one to. bright moment, in my opinion, of this committee, not necessarily because of the product, but because we all worked together in such a way to come to an end that we thought was best for the country, much in the light and in the tone the chairman just laid out. so i want to start by welcoming our secretary. we have had some conversations. i appreciate his hard work. but i do want to say i'm -- as i've said to him personally, i'm very disappointed that the administration has choosesen to go about what they're doing without explicitly seeking the aught ridsization of congress. i think that's huge mistake. i realize that part of that, unfortunately, has to do with the political season that we're in, which is, to me, very unfortunate that that might be a factor to some. and i also realize that part of the strategy and plan or big parts of it are still being created and therefore, it's being put together as we move along and we're really not in a place right now for congress to fully ascertain what the plan might be. and as the chairman just mentioned, he's gonna deal with an authorization, our committee will deal with an authorization. but i just want to say to our secretary, i hope that when that's done, it's done with the administration explicitly seeking that, not saying if congress wants to play a constructive role, it can and it would be welcomed, but one where you seek it and you lay out in detail for us, in both classified and open settings, what it is we are seeking to achieve and how we are gonna go about it. and again, i know much of this is being made up as we go along. i do hope -- i do hope that the secretary today will outline the true nature of the threat. i know he was in a meeting prior to coming in here where some of that was being discussed, but i hope that clearly today, you'll lay out what you think the true nature of the threat is. thirdly and just one glaring s of state probably don't have the same opportunity that senators do to visit people in refugee camps and to see people that we've said we would support and don't. we've been pushing in this committee for years, or for a long time to arm and train the vetted moderate opposition. we passed out of this committee a year and a half ago almost on a 15-3 vote that we've been pushing for for longer than that. and in spite of the fact that there are some alleged activities that are occurring, we have not done the things that we said we would do. as a matter of fact, i would say that the position that the administration has taken over this last year and two weeks. since we were here meeting about the authorization and passing one has led to many of the;4v[m problems that we are facing today, many of the problems that are causing civilization itself to be fearful. and, again, though, i appreciate the fact that the secretary's here today, that the administration has stepped forward and has the beginnings of a thought process as to how to address it. i do want to say that what i've heard about dealing with the moderate opposition to me is odd. i know that the administration especially at the white house has stated how generally feckless, to use a -- to use a word, i think, that describes it. . they believe this moderate opposition to be, and yet, we look at this and today it's our entire ground game. i have supported the training and arming of these rebels for some time. i will say i was shocked yesterday to hear that in the armed services testimony these rebels are actually going to be used against isis. all of them that i've met with and things may have changed. but their focus has been taking out assad. i know they've had a two-front battle or war raging as they've tried to do that. but i'm surprised that the administration is basing their entire ground game on a group of people that candidly are going to receive very little training under the small authorization that's been put forth, and that's our entire ground game, which brings me back to point two talking about the very nature of the threat. seems to me, the administration has placed many, many caveats on what we will not do. and at the same time, the rhetoric describing the threat is far greater than it seems to me the plan that's being put together. and i'll close with this. i know that typically when you have a coalition, you have the coalition put together before you announce it. i know in this case, we're announcing a coalition, and we are attempting to put it together. and i hope that what we're going to end up with is more than a group of coat holders. i hope that we're going to have people who are really going to be doing things on the ground that matter. but i do hope the secretary through his hard work is generating commitments that will matter as it relates to this. this effort we all know is not going to be a one or two-year effort. it's going to be a multi-year effort. some people are saying a decade. some people are saying a decade. and so i do think it's important as our chairman laid out that all of us fully understand what we're undertaking. fully understand the nature of the threat. fully understand the commitment of this administration to deal with this threat in the appropriate way. i welcome you here today, i look forward to your testimony and to our questions. >> with that, mr. secretary, we welcome you back to the committee so ably and distinguishedly chaired. we thank you for your service to our country. we know that you just recently arrived from building this coalition. and we appreciate you being here today in order to inform members of p.m.n front of us, and with that, the floor is yours. >> well, chairman menendez, ranking member corker and members of the committee, my friends and former colleagues. i really thank you for holding this hearing on an issue that is obviously fraught with all the high stakes that both the chairman and the ranking member have just described and all of the members of the committee understand deeply. and i really look forward to this opportunity to both define the threat that isil does pose, the ways in which it does, and, of course, our strategy for defeating it. and all of that could not be more critical for the country. during the years that i had the privilege of serving here and working with different administraons american foreign policy works best and strongest when there's a genuine discussion, dialogue, a betting of ideas back and forth, really a serious discussion much more an articulation of one set of ideas and then another and they just opposed each other and they set out there and there's no real effort to a meeting of the minds. so want to make sure that by the time we are done here today i heard from you. i know what you're thinking intd give her to me and you know what we are thinking, what the administration is thinking. and the get a clear understanding of what it is that we have done so far of how we see this. and how, hopefully, we can come to see it together, what we are doing now and where do we go next. and i state unequivocally, and it's not a passing sentence that i welcome the input, need the input of this committee because it is together that we are going to be much stronger and much more effective in guaranteeing the success of this effort. and it's a big effort in a lot of ways. it's about isil in the immediacy, but as we will i think discussed today, it's about a lot more than that. so i want to underscore at the start. you know, there's some debates of the past 30 years, 29 of which i was privileged to serve in the senate, that will undoubtedly fill up books and documentaries for a long time. and iraq is certainly one of them. iraq has caused some of the most heated debates and deepest divisions of the past decade. a series of difficult issues and difficult choices about which people can honestly disagree. but i didn't come here today, in the hope we don't have to rehash those debates. the issue that confronts us today is one on which we all ought to be able to agree. isil must be defeated. period, end of story. and collectively we are all going to be measured by how we carry out this mission. you know, as i came in here, obviously, we have some folks who spoke out, and i which -- and i would start by saying that i understand%. i've lived it. that's how i first testified in front of this country in 1971. i spent two years protesting a policy. so i respect the right of code pink to protest and to use that right. but, you know, what, i also know something about code pink. would think was started by a woman and women who are opposed to war but who also thought that the governments job was to take care of people. and to give them health care and education and good jobs. and if that's what you believe in, and i believe it is, then you ought to care about fighting isil. because isil is killing and raping and mutilating women. and they believe women shouldn't have an education. they sell all the girls to be sex slaves to jihadists. there's no negotiations with isil, nothing to negotiate. and they're not offering anyone health care of any kind. you know, they're not offering education of any kind. fort hall philosophy or idea or cold, whatever you want to call it, that frankly comes out of the stone age. they are cold-blooded killers marauding across the middle east making a mockery of a peaceful religion. and that's precisely why we are building a coalition to try to stop them from denying the women in the girls and the people of iraq the very future that they yearn for. and, frankly, code pink and a lot of other people need to stop to think about how you stop in and deal with that. so i -- [shouting] >> your individual now protect the homeland. you're in visual not protect the homeland. >> so it's important for people to understand -- important for people to understand, there's no invasion. the nation was isil into iraq. the invasion as far as fighters -- foreign fighters industry. that's the invasion, and it is destructive to every possibility of building a state in that region. so even in a region that is virtually defined by division, and every member of this committee understands the degree to which these divisions are deep in that region. leaders who have viewed the last 11 years for differently have all come together for this cause. they may agree on very little in general, but they are more unified on this subject than anything that i've seen been unified on in my career. so as president obama described last week when he spoke directly to the american people, we do have a clear strategy to degrade, defeat and destroy isil. and it's not in its infancy. it has been well thought through and carefully articulated, and now it is being built in these coalitions efforts that began with a meeting in jeddah and moved to paris and will move to united nations this week when i chair a u.n. security council meeting on friday. the united states will not go it alone. that has been a fundamental principle on which president obama has sought to organize this effort. and that is why we are building a coalition, a global coalition. there are more than 50 countries already have agreed or are now doing something, not every country will decide that their role is to have some kind of military engagement. but every country can do something, and will show except what that means. and as i traveled around the region and europe in the last days, the question that foreign leaders were asking me was not whether they should join the coalition, but how they can help. we're also, and i emphasize this, we are not starting from scratch. this is an effort that we've been building over time, both on our own and with the help of our international partners. even before president obama delivered his speech last week, nearly 40 countries have joined in 10 shooting to the effort to strengthen the capacity of iraq to be able to strengthen its military, to train, to provide humanitarian assistance. we've been focused on isil since its inception as the successor to al-qaeda of iraq. in 2013. and back in january, realizing that, we ram wrapped up our assistance to the iraqi security forces, increasing our intelligence surveillance reconnaissance, or isr, the flights to get a better picture of the battlefield. we expedited weapons like the hellfire missiles or the iraqis in order to bring their capacity to bear in this fight. early this summer the isil threat accelerated when it effectively erased the iraq-syria border, and the mosul dam fell. the president acted immediately, deliberately and decisively. we further searched the isr missions immediately. we set up joint operations centers in baghdad and irbil immediately. and our special forces conducted a very detailed come in depth assessment of iraqi security forces and kurdish forces. we did not purposefully without jumping that some people wanted us to, because we wanted to understand what is the capacity of the iraqi army to fight? how many brigades, having seen what happened in mosul, are still prepared to engage? are beginning to something that, in fact, -- aren't we getting something that, in fact, who can do what? to date we have launched, we've supported those iraqi security forces that, by the way, helped in the liberating of amerli, helped in the sinjar mount, helped in taking back the mosul damn, now we have launched more than 150 airstrikes. and it is because of the platforms that we put in place last january, even before that those strikes have been among the most precise strikes that we've ever taken. the percentage, i won't go into it here, but i will tell you, you will be astonished if you heard openly now the accuracy of those efforts. those who put in place back in june. and those strikes have been extremely effective in breaking the siege is that i described, and beginning to move confidence i can to the iraqi military. the judgments and assessments of our military that went over there to look at the iraqi military came back with a judgment of a sufficient number of brigades capable of and ready to fight. and with the reconstitution of the military in a way that can bring the country together and not be divided along sectarian lines, or viewed to be the army of one individual, it is entirely likely that there willd be much greater and more rapid progress. so that has given us time to put in place the two pillars of a comprehensive strategy against the isil. and inclusive iraqi government which was essential. they would be no capacity or success here. if we had not been able to see the iraqi government come together. and secondly, the broad international coalition so the u.s. is not alone. we redoubled our efforts frankly to the movie iraqi political process forward and we were very clear eyed about the fact that the stretch of isil would only succeed if we had a strong, inclusive government. and, frankly, that required transmission in the government which the iraqis themselves affected. with our support and several weeks of very complex negotiations, the president nominated mr. batty to serve as prime minister but and shortly thereafter prime minister al-abadi again with our support and this is able to form his cabinet, reason it to the parliament. and last week the government was approved. i have to tell you, it's quite astonishing to be in jeddah the other day with the saudis, the varieties, the bahrainis, the jordanians, the cadres, the turks, the lebanese, and iraqis. iraqis inside a baby. but here in this committee knows what that relationship has been like for the last few years. and here the foreign minister minister of iraq who chaired the meeting side office said they were opening enemy in this in baghdad. that's transformative. the result is something also for iraq that is never seen before in its history. and election deemed credible by the united nations, followed by peaceful transition of power without any used troops on the ground. i must say i was sort of struck yesterday, "the wall street journal" had an article talk about arab divide, but above the arab divide language is the shia foreign minister of iraq, the kurd president of iraq and the sunni foreign minister of saudi arabia, all in communication and jointly working as never before. so i think people need to focus on what has been accomplished here. as you know i went to iraq last week. i traveled, i met with the leaders of iraq. and throughout the entire process we've been in touch with regional leaders to ensure that the new and inclusive government is going to receive support from the region. with this inclusive government in place, it is time for a defensive strategy that we and our international partners have pursued to get things together, get the inclusive government, know exactly where we were going, can have transition to an offensive strategy. one that harnesses the capabilities of the entire world to eliminate the isil threat once and for all. president obama outlined his strategy in detail. i'm not going to go through it into detail, but i'll just quickly say, and be quick in walking through it. at its core our strategy is centered on the global coalition that will collaborate closely across a number of specific areas, including direct and indirect military support. military assistance can come in a range of forms, from training and equipping, to logistics and air lift. and countries from inside and outside of our region are already right now providing that support in these venues. i've also no doubt whatsoever that we will have the capabilities and resources we need to succeed militarily. and president obama made clear that we'll be expanding the military campaign to take on the isil in iraq, and syria, whatever it is found. but this is not the goal for a 1991. it is not the iraq war in 2003, and that's true for a number of reasons. number one, u.s. ground troops will not be sent into combat in this conflict. from the last decade we know that a sustainable strategy is not u.s. ground forces. it is enabling local forces to do what they have to do for themselves and for their country. i want to be clear. the u.s. troops that have been deployed to iraq do not and will not have a combat mission. instead, they will support iraq forces on the ground as they fight for their country against these terrorists. and in syria the on the ground combat will be done by the moderate opposition, which serves as the current best counterweight in syria to extremists like isil. we know that isil as it gets weaker, the moderate opposition will get stronger. and that will be critical in our efforts to bring about a political solution necessary to address the crisis in syria once and for all. that is one of the reasons why it is so critical that congress authorized the opposition train and equip mission when it comes to the floor. but it's also critical that the opposition makes the most of the additional support. the kind of support that they've been requesting now four years. and they need to take this opportunity to prove to the world that they can become a viable alternative to the current regime. number two, this is more than just a military coalition. and i want to emphasize that. in some ways some of the most important aspects of what we will be doing are not military. this nation isn't just about taking out an enemy on the battlefield. it's about taking out a network, decimating and discrediting a militant cult masquerading as a religious movement. it's similar to what we've been doing to al-qaeda these last years. the bottom line is we will not be successful with a military campaign alone, and we know it. nor are we asking every country deploy a military role. we don't need every country to engage in that kind of military action. and, frankly, we're not asking them and we don't want every country to do that. only holistic campaign will accomplish our objectives. in addition to the military campaign it will be equally important for the global coalition to dry up isil's illicit funding here and by the way, the bahrainis in the meeting in the jeddah have offered to host a meeting because they've been engaged in this that brings people together to focus in precisely the steps we can all take to do this, and that can possibly have an impact not just on isil bottom of the flows of terrorism support. we have to stop the foreign fighters who carry passports from countries around the world, including the united states, to continue to deliver, and we also need obviously to continue to deliver urgently needed humanitarian assistance. and, finally, and this is really, you can't overstate this, we must continue to repudiate the gross distortion of islam that isil is spreading. put an end to the sermons by extremists that brainwash young men to join these movements and commit mass atrocities in the name of god. i was very encouraged to hear that saudi arabia's top clerics came out and declared terrorism a heinous crime under sharia law, and that the perpetrators should be made an example of. and i think -- i might just mention -- i will wait until we get into q&a. all come back to this but a very important statement was made today by the top clerics in the region, and i want to come back to that because i think it's critical. but let me just emphasize that when was the global coalition, we mean it. and this is not australia, other countries, '40s, countries in europe have all taken on already initial responsibilities. so my colleagues, we are committed to working with countries in every corner of the globe to match the campaign with the capabilities that we need to fight it. and i can tell you today that every single person i spoke to in wales, at the wheel summit, in jedda jeddah come in pairs we have more than 30 countries and entities, they all expressed strong support for our mission and a willingness to help in some way. we have excellent meetings, and our meetings in baghdad and in cairo and in ankara also advanced the process. at the conference in paris, we took another step towards another meeting this week. the young committees unlike the need for that does for which evolving behind closed doors, these countries will be speaking out publicly at the u.n. security council, and the world will begin tuesday what each of these countries are prepared to do. so we have a plan. we know the players. our focus now is in determining what each country's role will be a net to coordinate those activities for success. later this week we're going to have more to say about our partners and the contributions, and we still fully expect this coalition to grow. one of the things that i'm most pleased about is we've asked one of our most respected and expects military leaders, general john allen, to come to the state department and oversee this effort. he came within 24 hours of being asked, was at his desk at seven in the morning and is now already laying out the campaign from a diplomatic point of view for how we coordinate what will be needed for all of these other aspects beyond the military peace. and i had a long meeting with him yesterday, again today, and i am confident that together with ambassador brett mcgurk who will serve as the deputy and assistant secretary and patterson was so much a part of her effort against al-qaeda and when she was our ambassador to pakistan, we have a very experienced group of people engaged in this effort. the fact is if we do this right, then this effort could actually become a model for what we can do with respect to the individual terrorist groups in other places that continued to wreak havoc on efforts of governments to build their states and provide for their people. and i'm confident that with our strategy in place and international partners on our side, we will have all that we need. and with the help of the congress, we will be able to succeed in degrading and ultimately destroying this monstrous organization, wherever it exists. i know that was a little long, mr. chairman, but i wanted to lay out and i appreciate your patience spent well, thank you, mr. secretary. let me start off with i pick what are the most critical lessons that we learned from past u.s. attorney in -- interventions abroad is that we must have a clear vision toward the in state we are seeking. and a coherent strategy that is focused about how, not only do we enter and succeed, but how do we exit the theater of war. so i'd like to get as succinct as you can a statement from you as to what does the indigo look like. i heard you talk about taking out a network. i get that, but beyond that what is the political in state conditions we are seeking so that we will no that it's time to end military action? >> military action ends when we have ended the capacity of isil to engage in broad-based terrorist activity that threatens the state of iraq, threatens the united states, threatens the region. that's our goal, and that means ending their ability to live in uncovered spaces, have a safe haven and be able to control territory and move at will, to try to attack the united states or other places. the threat obviously right now is for middle east and europe, but with americans over there fighting with passports. >> so obviously that doesn't mean we're going to look to eliminate every person who is associated with isil. >> we have been able to eliminate every person associated with al-qaeda. >> so speeded we've been able to reduce the capacity to mount major attacks. you know, under the circumstances that we are able to obviously guard against and engage in speeded so in iraq we want a sovereign iraq is territory integrity has been restored without the presence of isil. >> and independent inclusive government that is functioning. >> and in serious? >> syria, likewise. we believe ultimately there's no solution to syria without a political settlement. that goal hasn't changed. but assad has had little incentive to negotiate the incentive that existed when i first went to moscow last year and president putin and russia agreed to support the geneva process, ma regrettably got sidetracked by a number of things, one of which was the infighting that begin to take place in the opposition itself. two, the unexpected degree to which assad became an extraordinary magnet for terrorists. and that's when he began to have this amazing flow of foreign fighters who came to get rid of assad. and as assad gashed people and there'll bombed people and tortured and so forth, it became more evident to those global fighters, and particularly to countries in the region, they were focused on whatever group could get that have assad. and, unfortunately, tragically, isil is somewhat an outgrowth of that phenomenon. therefore, we are today, you know, i think all the countries in the region have recognized that there was a mistake of judgment with respect to that process, and i think people that are bending over backwards to try to rectify it spin ac back i think members of this committee who have joined together to first vote for the authorization of use of military force as president obama was headed to the g20 seven at the time in russia, to deter assad from using chemical weapons, and to subsequent voted in a bipartisan effort to arm the predator in rebels over a year ago only appreciate that, it is my hope that when we refine the definition of the in state as it relates to the campaign against isil that we understand that if i'm a moderate bedded rebel and they've been asked to fight against isil also need to fight against assad because that is the ultimate mission. and so as we move forward i'd like to hear how that is coincided. let me ask you to other questions. i heard you very clearly when you said we are not asking all of our partners to engage in military, direct military actions. but i hope that there will be, and i'd like to hear from you, can we expect part of a sunni arab coalition members to, in fact, a part of military actions in this regard? that this cannot be simply a campaign by the west against the east. >> you are absolutely correct. first of all let me thank you and i think the committee for the vote that you took, the only entity in the congress that did and it was an affirmative vote and we're grateful for that and respect it. currently, there are countries outside of europe and outside of the region committed to engage in military action. there are countries in europe committed to take military action. there are countries in the region, arab, committed to take military action. we will have sufficient levels of commitment to take military action. it will be up to centcom and general allen and others to work on the question of who will do what. >> it's fair to say thi that ths going to be a multiyear effort. >> well certain -- the president has been very clear about that. certain parts of will become absolutely. i can't tell you -- i can tell you this. when we took them on at mosul dam and the iraqis were on the ground and took them on, we took back mosul dam. we took them on at trenton, they moved out. we took them on at sinjar mountain. we freed the people at sinjar mountain. and we have currently enable people to be able to hold other places and it is clear from intelligence we pick up that what we're doing now, which has fundamentally been more defensive than offensive, has already had an impact on them. i am convinced that with proper effort we can have an impact. >> i don't dispute that you've had in the short term and impact to stem their advances, at least within the region of their in. my question though, no one reasoreasonably can come from te administration and suggest that the ultimate goal, which is taking up this network, is not going to be a multiyear effort. >> it's a multiyear effort to the president has already said that. >> with the as a reality let me turn to the aumf. how is it that the magician believes that, and i support its efforts, but how is it that the administration pleased that the 9/11 aumf, or the iraq at uf, provide the authorization to move forward whether congress decides to or not, you know it was not too long ago that members of the administration acted before the committee. when i asked them, i was headed toward repealing the iraqi aumf, and there was administration witnesses he believed that it should be repealed on behalf of the administration. how is it the administration now thinks it can rely upon that for legal authority? >> mr. chairman, how is it? it's because good lawyers within the white house, within the state department who have examined this extremely closely have come to the conclusion across the board that the 2001 aumf which says all necessary and appropriate force against those nations, organizations, or persons responsible for 9/11, those who harbored such organizations or persons to prevent future acts of international terrorism against the united states by such persons or organizations. includes al-qaeda. it's always been interpreted as including al-qaeda. and i'll try -- al-qaeda and associated forces. that is the language. al-qaeda and associated forces. now, al-qaeda, isil began as al-qaeda. in 2005 in iraq, 2004, isil was al-qaeda in iraq. and it only became this thing called isil a year ago. and it only became that out of convenience to separate themselves in an internal fight, but not because they're thinking changed, not because their targets changed, not because their actions changed. they are the same people doing the same people that were prepared to and were attacking for all of those years. and emir publicity stunt to separate yourself, you call yourself something else, does not get you out from under the force of united states law -- >> i appreciate your ability as a former prosecutor and a gifted attorney to try to make the case. i will tell you that at least from the chair's perspective, you're going to need a new aumf. and it will have to be more tailored, because i don't want to be part of 13 years later, and multitude of countries that have been used in this regard for that to be the authority. and i think our goals are the same. i think we need to get you a different set of authorities and to look for to what with my colleagues. >> not only are our goals the same, mr. chairman, but we know you're thinking about retooling the aumf, and we welcome, we would like congress, please, do this. we want that to happen. we are not going to make our actions dependent on it happening, but we will work with you as close as we can and should in no to taylor and aumf going forward, and we look forward to that opportunity. >> senator corker. >> thank you, mr. chairman. i just want to say as i said to you personally, we have three senators, president, vice president, secretary of state that are exercising terrible judgment right now. and to say that you're going to do this regardless of what we say, you're not going to ask for by and by the united states senate or house of representatives on behalf of the american people, in a conflict to choose is going to be multiyear. some people say a decade, taking us into another country with a different enemy is exercising the worst judgment possible. and so i've said this to you as long as i can personally. saying if congress wants to play a constructive role, we would welcome the. to me is a political game. and i'm disappointed that you as secretary of state after being chairman of this committee, after espousing the views that you espouse in the past, out of convenience in parsing legal words would make a statement you just made. so let me move on and say, i would love, you say much has been a published, that's a nice photograph from "the wall street journal." tell me what's been accomplished. who, what innovation is going to have a ground force in syria? what arab sunni country is going to be flying in and bombing and doing missile raids with an air of insignia on the side of the plane. tell me that. >> senator, you will hear that at the appropriate time within the next days, as john allen and the team work with all of these countries for the permissions, for the pacing, for all the things that will take place. i've told you they -- >> let me ask you this -- >> no, no, no. let me finish. >> will have arab sunni countries participating in the ground effort and serious because no, i didn't say the ground effort. you know, right now the plan is to work through, and our judgment is that we can be effective working in the way that we are. la mesa a couple of things, first of all. with respect -- >> you can say the answer to my questions, okay? i'm not going to be filibustered. >> i'm going to answer your question. i'm sure the chair will be, you know, happy to have the kind of dialogue i talked about earlier. it's important talk this through. >> i've got two minutes 34 seconds and for more questions. >> senator, yada let me answer any of them yet. so let me try to answer the question. >> the question is, what arab sunni country is going to be putting boots on the ground in syria against this now claimed army by your -- >> at this moment no country has been asked to put boots on the ground or no country is talking of it. we don't think it's a good idea right now. so there's no discussion of that at this moment. now, with respect to the judgment about asking congress to do it, i'm asking to do it. pass it. we'd love to have you do it. but we're not going to get stuck in the situation when we have the authority of not exercising our authority to do we believe we did to do to protect the country. so what asking you to do. pass it to more. >> you asking us to do it but you're not giving any details because you don't have them. >> that's not true. >> then share them. >> i'm not going to sure that the public here today. >> share them in a classified setting. >> i'm confident there will be so many classified briefings that you be tired of them. but at the moment we are not going to lay this out until john allen has had a chance to come to the u.n. on friday, until we've had a chance to work closely with all of these countries in order to make this as effective as possible. >> do you realize how unserious the things that you've laid out and do things that were laid out yesterday sound when you're discussing training 5000, and your own words doctors, dentists and others, in saudi arabia over a year? i don't know whether they are being trained for offenses or defensive. i'd like you to clarify that activity. my understanding is that they will be given high-tech equipment after they prove themselves on the battlefield. you understand how unrealistic and how that effort on the ground where they are based, were i so is based, -- isil is based and doesn't match the rhetoric the administrators laid out and, therefore, you're asking us to approve something that we know the way you've laid it out makes no sense. we have a strong sense that our army, our military leaders have urged you to put special forces on the ground. but no, we're not going to do that. so this doesn't even seem serious. it seems like, it seems like a political answer to the united states as they cry out about this uncivilized activity. but it doesn't seem real to me. if you're willing to get into classified setting and layout all these details and tell us which of these countries are going to be flying their flag into syria, they going to be putting people on the ground because we know, we know the free syrian army cannot take on myself. you know that. you talk about the multiyear process. we're talking decades if that's going to be our salvation. so i'll just close with this. i'm disappointed. i was disappointed in the briefing we had last week. i do want us to deal with this in an effective way. you've not laid it out in a way that meets that test. i hope when we come back on before you put people in harm's way, unnecessarily, you have a plan that achieves the end you just laid out. we know right now that's not where you are. and i hope, again i hope you will seek it. i hope you will say that you're not going to do it without it, and i hope you will lay out a plan that will convince us that you are serious about doing the things you said you're going to do to the american people and to us about isil. because you haven't done it now. and i hope you will lay out a way to pay for it, to pay for it because we know this is going to take many, many years. and it has to do with the safety of our citizens. >> mr. chairman, can i, i hope, answer a little bit? senator, unicode i must say to you i really find it somewhat surprising for you to suggest that as the president of the united states talks to the nation and commits to take strikes in order to deal with isil, as we've come back from a week of very serious meetings with nations around the world, all of whom are committed to this, that you sit there and suggest that it's not serious. now, with all due respect to you, senator -- >> okay. >> let me try something point-blank. a moderate opposition in syria has, in fact, been fighting isil for the last two years. and since last january the free syrian army has been engage with isil in a level, and damascus countryside, and groups such as the syrian revolutionary front have thought of isil. they have expelled them from the province which borders turkey and eclipsed the border crossing. over the past two months moderate brigades have been deployed in northern a level to prevent isil from capturing key border towns, to which a large quantity of you mentioned assistance is now being sent. but they require our support. senator mccain knows that. he's been screaming about it for sometime. >> we've all been screaming about it. we've all done nothing, at least not much to talk about. >> senator, let's just understand that the fact is that what has propelled isis to some degree is a word called success. and as isis has had success, they'd used social media and it appealed to grow to numbers as they possibly been put on their heels. and that's the united states and other countries do seriously commit to this endeavor. and believe me, what we're doing is serious. then if success begins to turn and move towards the free syrian army and the moderate opposition, i believe you will see greater numbers of recruits. that's why the president is asking for that open training under title 10, in order to try to build that up as fast as possible. our estimates are that are not currently tens of thousands still of fighting members of the opposition. and if you can get more people better trained, and by the way, every month that i've been secretary of state, we have been adding to the effort of what we are doing with respect to the syrian opposition. .. opposition. and most of that needs to be covered in a classified setting, as you know, but our assessment is that we can and given the urgency of the situation begin to move this program to a greater degree. so will it take a period of time? we've all said that, yes. but we're confident that we have the ability to be able to change the situation on the ground. by the way, i do have a list here. i'm not going to go into all of it now. buere we have had at least 18 fights that we have taken and to urge zilpah really have been providing additional weapons near paris margarita other countries a been doing this. australia is committed, a number of different items. i'm not going to go into a publicly sending various kinds of assistance. croatia, czech republic, denmark, estonia, france, hungary, italy, saudi arabia, germany. there are lot of countries here. by the way, they are all serious, to. >> secretary kerry, thank you for your tireless work. i think it is shocking and a sad state of affairs that we heard just now says angry comments and a new, mr. secretary, and through you that our president instead of at isis, a savage group who decapitated to americans and have warned that they're thirst for more american blood is out there. think it is shocking. i am actually shaking and trembling. this is not the time to show anger at the people who are working at night and day whether you agree with them are not to protect our people. now, i want to talk about the aumf. i voted against it in 2002, which started the disastrous war in iraq. i voted for it in 2001. i have agreed with the us six times. mr. secretary, the lawyers i have consulted with believed they you have the authority to go after isil. it is very clear. you read the parts. people listen to you. he read the parts that are correct. now that is not to save that i would not welcome working on a new one, but i want to say right now, the way things get done around this place and the let politics could play around this place i am proud that you say you're going to do your work to protect the american people. this is just a sad opening for the hearing. i have never seen it, and i have gone through some tough ones. now, i want to say this, the iraq war and inflamed the long simmering sectarian divisions in that country. i know you do not want to get into the past, and that is fine. it is worth mentioning because from my point of view that is a war i voted against. i am for going after isil because there is such a difference. there are two strains of thought as people speak out against the policies of the administration. one is they say you are not doing enough. go back with ground troops to more war, more boots on the ground, american boots are the only birds that work. you have proven that is just not true. and i certainly reject that. and the second school of thought, some of the folks out there who i like and talk to all the time, they think that we should not take the fight to isil. forget it. it is too complicated. it is fraught with uncertainty. we should sit on the sidelines. i oppose that. you cannot sit on the sidelines. at least i cannot. you have a group like this. 14-year-old, giving them this gift to their fighters, murdering ethnic and religious minorities including christians, sunni and shia and warning that their arrival continued to a strike the necks of americans. they have a very simple. they say if you do not take our twisted version of islam you either fleet, convert, or die. so i am not going to sit idly by and. mr. secretary, i have a question for human. i was doing interviews. i was expressing these views that there were certain areas where is gray in certain areas where it is clear to me. everyone takes their own lands to the question. i was asked this question. how can we make sure that the sunni moderates we help our the right ones? we have heard reports that the syrian moderates signed a nonaggression pact with isil. my answer to that was, there are all kinds of syrian moderate groups, and we are certainly not working with those who do not see it our way. could you expand on that answer? >> i would be delighted. this information fundamentally put out by isil, the moderate opposition recently restated his commitment as a national movement to fighting extremism generally and including isil please send a recent statement that they reached is simply baseless, not accurate, and they have not and they will not. >> thank you. and then i mean, i do not have enough time to test everything. one last question. what roles to iran and russia play in this conflict have the interest of these two countries factored into the president's counter isil strategy? note is delicate. >> you know, russia obviously, its principal line of support, assad, and --, as we all love, does not approving the willingness or capacity to go after isil. and russia was at the meeting in paris. china was at the meeting in paris. both spoke out powerfully about the need to stand up to isil. and iran, as you know, the subject of whether or not they might have been invited there were certain problems with china to make that happen because of country objections with respect to the presence. and it was not -- it did not happen. but iran obviously is deeply opposed to isil please reroute coordinating militarily but we have had brief conversations on the side of negotiations taking place at -- plus one iran nuclear negotiations. and we are prepared to see whether our non iran can contribute in a constructive way, but that would require also changing what is happening in syria where there irgc is on the ground and supporting assad and engage in activities. hezbollah on their behalf and they support. so there are a lot of areas of twisted conflict in these relationships, and we are looking, it would be negligent not to be open to listening to some change in the dynamic or some possibility of a constructive activity, but we are not relying on it, waiting for it, organizing around it, are coordinating with it at this point time. >> thank you. >> before i turn to the gentleman, let me just say to the secretary on this subject, i heard what you said, but to me iran is a regional instigator. it is a patron of the murderous assad regime, it is a sponsor of sectarian divisions inside of iraq. it uses iraqi airspace to send troops and men into syria. and some of us are concerned that, first of all, there and purposes are not our and purposes. secondly, some of us are concerned that negotiations with iran, you know, are affected to the extent that they express any desire to be helpful, they want to do it at the cost of concessions at the negotiating table. now you're shaking your head. >> not going to happen. >> i would not expect anything else. we hear these back channel efforts and then they get added by ayatollah, it creates uncertainty in that process, and i don't want to take more time for my colleague. >> thank you, mr. chairman. i share some of the anger of senator boxer when it comes to what has been going on with the beheading of americans. i mean, this is -- this is time for americans to be watching their fellow citizens being be headed by the savage people. and something has to be done about it. i fully sympathize with the problem that you have. where is happening, such a complex situation with complex cultures and what have you and you have to do something about it. i want to the bill in with the chairman. he mentioned three points in his opening that he was hoping he would here, and i have not heard them yet. that is, he talked about hearing the plan that you have. he wanted to hear what success looks like and he wanted to hear metrics as to how we measure progress. and i am just not there yet. i am not convinced. and this is particularly true where i think everyone is in agreement. the president, congress, the american people, no one wants this, american boots on the ground. that is not going to happen, and no one is going to go there with that. in fact, had the president come here and said that, look, i want authorization for airstrikes, you and i both know how effective the drone program has been and how good it has been as far as accomplishing the goals that we have in yemen and pakistan and other places. if you would have come here for that you would have had no problem with me. as far as boots on the ground, who do you get? the iraqis cannot do it. they dropped their guns and uniforms and when, at the slightest bit of threat. with all due respect, everyone talks about the moderates, the opposition and the rebels, we have been through this for over a year. i am just not convinced that there is such a group. you said let's talk about this and see if we cannot come up with some way to do this. the best group around to be able to do this, but boots on the grounds are the kurds. they have been incredibly successful, reliable science. they are great fighters. if anybody is going to succeed on the ground in iraq or syria, it is going to be the kurds. have you given thought to partner in a put them? what am i missing here? >> well, you are not, senator. they have been extraordinary demand that was our first line of effort debris that is why we put the joint operations center redid and elicited immediate support. we have to hold that line. that was critical, and it is why the president was prepared to help guarantee that that happened. new and they're is a huge flow of weaponry, as i said, 18 flights have gone in. there are flights from other countries, too. italians, others, lots of countries have been supporting the kurds in this effort. i think this is the work that john allen needs a chance to develop a little bit to see how what will go. the bottom line this, the commitment to destroy isil, and that means what i described earlier today. and for the momentum growing moderate opposition is one way of coming at it. we will see what else may be possible as we go forward. >> i appreciate that. it is encouraging for me to hear that you have engaged the kurds. >> very, very much so. >> with little time i have left i just want to make absolutely certain of your testimony. you originally said when you are meeting with these countries they have said what can we do to help some. but you have also said that nobody has agreed to put the boots on the ground. and then i said you think that you have not asked them to put boots on the ground. let me be clear. has anybody committed that they would fly their flag in and do airstrikes in this area? >> yes. >> and they are committed to do that? >> yes. >> but in the classified setting we will be able to get to those people are? >> yes. >> that is much more encouraging. thank you, and with that my time is up. >> secretary kerry, first of all, thank you for your incredible service. i -- what you have stated express's my view on the need for international action against a barbaric terrorist organization, isil. it requires an international response. i think president obama has been effective, particularly in the actions in iraq, the military strikes have been very effective in pulling back isil advancements, and i think the president deserves credit for doing that. he certainly has my support. you have been effective in bringing about an international coalition, and that is extremely important whenever we involve missions like this that must include an international presence. and you have been very clear that we will not half combat ground troops as part of this campaign, and i suppose each of those statements. so i want to get back to the point that the chairman mentioned and i guess everyone of us have mentioned in regards to the authorization of force. because i am not clear what we will do when syria, and i am not comfortable yet as to what we will do in syria. and i am looking forward to more information being made available to us. but my concern, i would really like to get your thoughts on this. can the authorizations that were passed in 2001 and 2002 were clearly aimed at a different circumstance, and if your lawyers interpretations are correct there are open ended in definitely well beyond the obama administration and could be used for long-term commitments, including ground force commitments in the future. and that certainly was not the congressional intent. i did not support the 2002 resolution, as the chairman said, it was based upon misinformation. 2001 was clearly aimed at the circumstances in afghanistan and was not intended to deal with the current circumstances and syria. i would hope we would all agree to that. so i think that it is absolutely essential that we come together inbuilt and revisit the authorization issues more than you would welcome congressional involvement. i think it is impact -- imperative that we attempt to clarify the authorizations on the use of force to meet the current needs. i do not think syria will be difficult. lee had been invited in by another country -- of i mean iraq. we have been invited in by the host country. it is clear we will not put combat troops on the ground there. syria will be more difficult. there are many of us who are not prepared to authorize the use of force in syria with the intimation we currently have, but that is something we have to work with. the president has article to powers. he always has horizon to defend the interest of this nation. his responsibilities as commander-in-chief, but i do not think there is any immediate urgency with congressional action. i think that it is vital for the appropriate role, and for moving forward beyond just the obama administration because, as you pointed out, this circumstance will not end in the next two years. and i just welcome your thoughts as to how you think that we should proceed in trying to deal with the type of authorization that can pass congress, give you the comfort levels you need to protect us against any lengthy, particularly combat involvement in these countries in the future. >> well, senator, thank you very much for your comments. but, look, i would not sit here comfortably and suggest to you -- norwood president obama by that token i no suggest to you that this ought to go on indefinitely and there should not be an effort with congress to define the spirit of course there would be. i think the american people wanted, deserve it, and it is inappropriate role for both branches to play, to work together to articulate that going forward. the president has made it crystal clear. he is ready to do that. we know that the chairman has announced that he is going to begin work to define at. we look forward to working with you to define it. that is how we go about it. now, in the immediate moment we have a prime minister. [inaudible conversations] in my meeting with the prime minister at the end we met with the preston and then read you know what he said as an opening comment not even prompted. he said isil is a terrorist nation mobilizing its international network to recruit people from all over the world. they have funds for mob across the region. we are fighting these people, something. [inaudible] about our community attacking minorities, women, children, they already -- and it was. [inaudible] about women killing or raping. a challenge to the region, to the international community. they're coming from across the border, neighboring syria are the international community is necessary to protect iraqis in the whole region. what is happening in syria is coming across to iraq. we cannot cross that border. it is an international border in a row for the international community, the united nations and the united states to act immediately to stop the spread of this cancer. it is spreading in the whole region, and we have a resolution to fight the cancer in iraq. we iraqis will have both an inclusive government now, and we can do this job properly. everybody as a whole. he goes on to talk about how they will do it. he specifically asks for the united states of america to help in this role. the lawyers also are clear that iraq has a right of self-defense and is exercising its right of self-defense and asking the united states help but. we already have a military agreement with them with respect to that. and so iraq is asking us to help him, and as a matter of right if they are being attacked from outside their country he have the right of hot pursuit, write to the will to attack those who are attacking you as a matter of self-defense. we believe that there is full justification command obviously that will be laid out further. is it better to have a greater statement of that? better to have the congress of the united states defining this going forward? we agree, but we need to move and to move rapidly because of the urgency of this danger. >> thank you. i was struck by the language in your opening statement. isil must be defeated, and a story. collectively we will be measured by how we carry out this mission. from military perspective the plan of carrying out this mission involves a combination of iraqi forces in iraq from a military perspective more capacity, of course the kurds, moderate levels in syria, more air power, no combat boots on the ground on the part of the united states. over the last few days as the president made that announcement has been doubt expressed whether that strategy will achieve what you have defined as our goal. the "washington post" reported the top u.s. commander in the middle east advice the president -- president william mott is contingent of troops to advise and assist the iraqi army. the chairman of the joint chiefs yesterday said that if local forces do not work he would recommend u.s. ground troops potentially to the president. my question is, if it becomes clear that the only way to achieve the defeat of isil is for the engagement of american ground troops will that be something that the president will consider at that time? >> the president will not put american ground troops into iraq. he made it clear again today in a statement that he made that america can make a decisive -- i am quoting the president. we can make a decisive difference, but i want to be clear the troops that have been deployed to iraq do not and will not have a combat mission. we're not going to deal with hypothetical about what happens if and this and this. we believe there are any number of options as to how one can guarantee the affect on isil long before you were to get to the hypothetical conversation about americans so i understand the chairman of the joint chiefs of staff whose job is to look at it from his perspective in terms of his military and his judgment, but at the president has made a judgment as commander in chief that that is not in the cards. that is where we are. i'm not going to deal with a hypothetical. >> quite frankly, we are relying on military strategy built on rebels to at this point are under assault by the regime and local forces of which some testimony set up to have for i'm capable of fighting. kurds that have been great fighters but are only willing to protect its territory. this is a seriously stated goal. the only thing that can solve this problem is u.s. combat forces we're not going to do that and isil gets to stay. >> we're so far away from that. >> the let me ask you this. >> let me discuss that. i will not get an abbott pedicles. you are presuming that iran and syria have no capacity to take on isil. who knows? and i'm not going -- let's start down this road. >> you're saying there is the opportunity. >> i never said anything about coordinating. if we are failing and failing miserably who knows which was there will make. you preposition is on the notion that we're failing. i don't believe that we will fail i will go back to the report. the number of people including former defense secretary gates has said his belief that it is not possible, number of highly qualified military experts said that they do not believe. you stated in your opening statement. >> there are lots of possibilities between here and there. the president has said he is not going to put -- >> you mentioned iran. iran yesterday said not that it was on the sidelines of these negotiations. and that the u.s. ambassador in iraq reached out to the iranian ambassador and asked to discuss some sort of level of coordination, and they already give us an answer. he said your open to dialogue if it had any sort of promise to be productive. he has answered the question. no point in coordinating with a catchy his hands are dirty. quite frankly -- he said this, not need. you are lying. we did not exclude them from the talks to join the coalition. they excluded themselves, they refuse to participate, and he went on to say that in iraq the u.s. goal is to turn it into a playground or we can enter freely and, well. i would say that any hopes of coordinating with iran it considered to be just as evil as isil is something that i would discourage for a number of different reasons. want to ask you one more question, and it has to do with the rebels and syria. later today ambassador for will testify the biggest and -- enemy the moderate face is the -- regime. the of targeting of moderate rebel and non isis rebel forces in the hopes of wiping them out so that they, the assad regime, will be the only alternative left in syria. very interested in supporting the moderate rebels will not require us to protect them from syria and the assad regime if we hope that they can develop into a credible fighting force? >> isis -- isil first. that is our policy. >> but ambassador for will testify later today that the biggest enemy they face is the assad regime bombing them, and there are reports today, credible reports that assad has stepped up his campaign attacking these moderate rebels. they may not be there for a storm. >> that is not our judgment. we obviously recognize that there are serious challenges with the assad regime command our policy has not changed in opposing the assad regime and help in the moderate opposition. and in a classified form i think we have a better opportunity to discuss what we're doing additional in order to do that. >> thank you, mr. secretary, for being here, and for all of your tireless efforts to address the isis threat. that is a threat that i believe was really brought home to the american people by the barbarous and heinous murders of james foley. as you may know, jim foley grew up in new hampshire. they both have ties to my state. i think people in new hampshire and across the country felt personally those murders. i appreciate -- and i said this yesterday at the armed services meeting with general dempsey and secretary hegel that i appreciate the efforts of our men and women in the military to make a rescue attempt to free those men being held hostage. i have been troubled by the comments from the family that have been reported about their concern that they did not -- were not communicated with and did not have support from our government as they were trying to deal with the hostage situation for their son. and i wonder if you could -- well, let me rephrase this. i hope that posted the murders this administration and future administrations will seriously reassess what can better be done to support families who are dealing with this kind of a crisis. some of the reports have pointed out that there are other countries to have different ways of dealing with the families. i certainly hope that you will help in this effort as we look at how we can better support those families. >> well, senator -- excuse me. senator, first of all, let me begin by saying that i know how personally and deeply involved you are in jim's case and then working with us to try to keep the focus on it. i know how close you were to the family, and i know how much effort went into the prior effort to when jim was in libya. i worked on that personally and on the subsequent effort we raise it country after country to try to get foreign minister or some contact in the country. of there a way to get proof
rock stars, like guys, historians, women, we've all heard of, we've seen them on tv, we've read their books. everybody knows who they are. we talked about them in hush tones and it has been my privilege to be friends with one of those rock stars because truly eric wit bigger is a name that is known by -- eric wittenberg. he's known not only for his expertise in the union calvary, many o his knowledge on controversial topics where he is constantly challenging people to reconsider what they think they know. he's never one to take a position because it's popular but he takes because it is well considered, well researched and it is well thought out. and so he's sometimes not so afraid to challenge conventional thinking on things. and it's that sense of going for the truth that has always made me admire his work. tarting out when i first got into the civil war as someone reading books and just thought this guy is fantastic. he's got 17 books you can read. but as our friendship has grown over the years, someone who is constantly challenging you to rethink what you think you know. it's really my privilege to bring here from columbus, ohio the fantastic eric wittenberg. [applause] >> now, that's quite an introduction. he don't know how to handle that one. thank you, chris. thank you so much. it's a plur to be here. this is go -- it's a pleasure to be here. i'm a litigator. that's what i do for a living. i'm used to walking and talking so for me to stand still in one place for the next nearly an hour is going to be a chalefpk. if you see me vibe ate -- vibrate after a while, you'll understand why. our topic today is the second the brutallimaxed in battle he -- brutal of trevilian station. this is one that one can actually use the word decisive. it means it had an impact on the outcome of the war. by contrast as much as i love the battle of brandy station and i have devoted a large part of my adult life in preserving it, db e end the battle trevilian station -- let necessity do a little stage setting for you. i'm going to introduce some of the important personnel here. i'm going to begin with bringing ulease ees grant east and promoting him to lieutenant general. he is given command of all of the armies of the united states. first and foremost he's got to decide whether he's going to lead george in command. this is an army that had a lot 1863.ual -- casualties in three of the commanders were either badly wounded or killed outright. so you've got the likes of william h. old blinky french who i said the aggressive move he ever made in his life was on a bottle of whiskey, commanding the third core. you've got john newton who is a solid soldier but not spectacular and is probably not well suited to command. hancock, having been badly wounded, we've got to restructure the army. ultimately the first and third core were merged into other cores and basically eliminated. this is how they got rid of blinky french. and also you've got john newton being transferred to the western theater. hancock comes back to duty. the entire structure of the command has been moved around. we have a bigger problem. the bigger prop -- problem is while 1863 was a decisive year, the problem is that everything fell apart at the end of the year. it begins with the death of john buford, the best the union had on december 16, 1863. after that you have the debalkal of the raid which ends up having kilpatrick being relieved of the third division of the army. they said kill pat trick is a hell of a dam fool. what does that tell you? ultimate my -- ultimately alfred pleasantton had one real supporter in the army and it was george gordon immediate. his testimony for the joint committee on the conduct of the ar when he testified that he wrote over to george gordon immediate and said general i'll give you a half-hour to prove yourself a great general by ordering a counterattack. i'll bet you my house and everybody else's house in this room that never happened. but pleasantton is another guy who was allergic to the truth. he had a real serious allergy problem. so immediate after this testimony -- meade revokes his basically authority of keeping pleasantton in command and he suddenly finds himself in missouri where he spends the rest of the war chasing sterling price. we've got a calvary core that needs a core commander and two of its three division commanders replaceded. the first situation we deal with is who is going to command the corps. by right it judd have been the division commander, but it's not going to be greg. instead, it's going to be this fellow. phillip heny sheridan, born in eland, raiseed in somerset ohio, remember of the west point class of 1853. nearly got himself tossed out of west point for threatening to he spends his -- regular army career in the years before the war doing unspec tar not very nd is really well-known fellow when the war breaks out. he ends up as a staff officer for henry alec. northwest thing you know he's commanding a brigade. he doesn't do too badly. before that, he ends up being appointed the colonel of the second calvary. his stint as a commander of cal i have -- calvary is going to last about 60 degrees. .e will command a brigade he is then promoted to brigadier general and ends up in command f this diff, of intpwhantry -- infantry. he is appointed commander of the army of potomac calvary corps. he says who do you want to command and he suggests sheridan to which grant's response is just the fellow i had in mind. so sheridan is a drinker. he's a little guy. .e's 5'2" he said his arms could treach down wount bending over. he had a very large head and tended to wear a funny looking hat. he was known for having a titanic irish temper. nd this will come into play. we now have to replace the first ivision commander. toll bert resigns as confederate commission ends up spending up until the winner of 1864 all of his time commanding infantry. he commanded a six can -- when he's appointed to take command of the first division of the army calvary corps, he has this much experience. but this is the division commander. instead it should have gone to this man wesley merit. wesley merit will spend 43 years in the regular army. ends up in command in the expedition that captures in 189 during the spanish american war. he will end up commanding the calvary corps as its last commander. instead he gets skipped over and they bring in tolbert this creates another problem. we've got george custer here. custer is a chander of a brigade in the third division. -- hird commander needs a instead, another officer is brought in by the name of james h. wilson. wilson is known as grant's pet. he's been an engineer officer in the west. he's a brilliant guy. custer and wilson were class meats at west point. they hated each other's guts. wilson was promoted over custer to take command of that division. custer said he's junior to me i won't serve under him. and i hate his guts anyway. theyened up having to pick up custer's brage aid move it out of the third division and move it into the first and switch it into the third brigade because it's commanded by a commander of the third calvary in order to keep the sebyort and the rarveing issues straight. harry wilson has never commanded anything better than a squad of point.. cadets at west so let's recap. we've got a first difftigs commander with zeer toe days of experience commanding calvary. we've got mcmurtry who is a solid capable soldier and finally we have james harrison wilson who's never commanded anything bigger than the squad of cadets at west point. friends, does this sound like a recipe for disaster? you bet. devin was known as buford's hard hitter. he once said i can't teach him anything about calvary. he knows more than i do. it david mcmurtry, west point class of 1855, one of miff favorites. he ended up spending the rest of his life in my hometown of reding, pennsylvania. i always was a big ad mirer of david gregg. he will command a diff egg of calvary longer than any office ner the union service. he will resign as commission in february of 1865. big deer general heny dive yeas of the second new york calvary, a new york city lawyer, no military treaning before the war, turns out to be half decent . this is his first cousin john irving gregg. '5". 2sh6 ends up being captured in the days just prior to the surrender in april of 1865. not exactly a sterling attribute . mcwarter r cummings pennington. begins the war as a lieutenant, ends as a colonel. during the civil war does some of the finest artillery work commanding battery m second united states artillery. it was his guns that blasted the confederate horse off the field with some of the finest work done in the war. his battery will play a big role in the story we're about to tell. on the confederate side we have this fellow, navy general wade ampton the third, columbia south carolina, the wealthiest man in the south. when south carolina succeeded, he chose to draw his sword on behalf of his native state. out of his own pocket paid for e formation and quing of the hampton legion. ultimately the hampton legion infantry will remain as it is. the four companies of calvary will actually filled out and formed an actual regimen which will become the second south carolina calvary and the battle -- hampton tillly was 6'3", 240 pounds. he was very, very proud of the fact that as a young man he had killed killed a man a -- killed a bear with his bare hands. he wound up killing 13 yankees in battle in one-on-one combat. when jeff stewart was mortally wounded it is going to create a big problem for robert e. lee. the big problem that lee has is e's got a void in command. stewart was the eyes and ears of northern virginia. robert e. lee relied on him heavily. wade hampton is not a west pointer and he's not -- ease a member of south carolina air stock crassy. his handpicked choice was his army soul mate, lee. he's the favorite nephew of the commanding general of the army of northern virginia. fits lee had exactly four good days in the war s yet he ends up being the final commander in the army of northern virginia's calvary corps. go figure. fits lee and stewart were very much kindred sowls. he was tch shared the vovep jeb stewart's handpicked successor. the problem is hampton outranked him. hampton's commission as major general was ahead of fits lee's on the promotion list so therefore he was the senior general. so general lee who's got a third division under his second son, roony lee decides that rather than appoint a new commander for the corps he is going to create these independent commands reporting directly to him. do you sew a problem here? who's going to be in charge in the field? hampton is that guy. this is matthew butter, hampton's protege. succeeded hampton in command of he hampton legion calvary. m.c. butler had a leg taken off by a shell at the battle of brandy station has returned to duty in the spring of 1864 with a brigade of very green mounted infantry from south carolina and with the death of stewart and hampton's succession to command, -- l end up in command of tom rosser, one of the brigades that make up hampton's division will talk about rosser later. this is colonel gib wright. is command of young's brigade. gib wright is an interesting fellow. he was aquited of murder in the years prior to war. liked his whiskey and was a hard fighter. there's fitz lee, 5'3", prone to being obese. by the time in the spanish american war he was 320 pounds. which is why he came back to the service of the army for the spanish american war it wasn't possible to get him up on a horse which is why he in turn ended up not serving in the field. as i said, the favorite nephew -- nephew of the commanding general of the army of northern virginia, i've identified four good days this guy had in the entire war, one of them happen to be may 7, 1964. fitz will conduct a delaying ction at the tavern. it will hold off the union infantry advance long enough to allow dick anderson's troop to get ahead of the army of the potomac. that's one of got days that fitz lee. trevilian stations will not be one of those four good days. igadier general williams wickham will resign his commission. williams wickham regimen at the time broke at brandy station which in turn allowed union troopsers to surround and mortally frank hampton, the younger brother of wade hampton. wade hampton never it forgave wickham for that. roger preston chew. his battalion was attached to hampton's division and finally breathed who james commanded -- these are the adversaries we are going to see take the field as we head toward trevilian station. set the stage for you. after some inause suspicious ginnings for -- inausepishes for sheridan, he's been almost constantly engaged with the confederates, that one being the battle of yellow tavern. other than that he got his butt kicked regularly. grant comes up with an idea because he's been himmed in at cold harbor. he comes up with a brilliant idea. this is a brilliant idea that's actually based on something that he tried out in the early phases of the vicks burg campaign. he's going to launch a calvary raid with the idea creating so much chaos and havoc that will allow his army to steal a march. now he's going to do it with two divisions. one of the lessons he's learned is he's allowed sheridan to go off on a raid. i do need to address that riefry for a minute. back to may 7, 1864. the union cal varies engage with fitz lee almost all day before finally they drive him off. when thare dan arrives -- george gordon arrives at todd's tavern, he finds the two commanders and their troops with their horses on saddle making coffee, writing letters, doing what soldiers do when they have spare time. why? sheridan is nowhere to be found and they have no orders. hey do what soldiers do. he issues orders directly to the two division commanders. about the same time these orders arrive sheridan shows up and he gives conflicting orders. it's a mess. thare dan gets summonful sheridan gets summoned to mmediates ten and he ends up engaging with immediate. immediate didn't have the nick name -- it nicknamed the goggle eyed snapping turtle for no reason. his staff officer used to call him the great peppery for his language. meade had a titanic temper. and sthare dan had a titanic irish temp per and the two of them ended up engaging in a screaming match. the end of which sheridan looked at meade and said, fine. you want to giffords to the calvary corps go right ahead because i won't do it and stomped out of the army's command. in other words, he told his boss to go stuff it. gross insubordination. meade goes straight to grant to report the insubordination and get permission to relieve sthare dan of command because he knows he can't go it without grant's permission. e finds grant sitting and he tells grant what happened and grant doesn't react. then meade makes a mistake. he says sthare dan wants to take the calvary out and go finds stewart and bring him to battle. grant looks up and says general sthare dan usually know what's he's talking about. let him go do it. sheridan has been insubordinate with his boss and has rewarded. it creates a great deal of friction. part of the problem is when sheridan goes off on this raid he takes all three divisions of calvary with him. it nearly blunders into a greath great mess and it ends up being with the slugging match here at spotsylvania courthouse. it's not a good situation. so we've got a great deal of conflict intention between meade and sheridan such that they can't work together. going -- going's to keep wilson's division with the army. he's going to send sheridan with two divisions. he's going to take with him toll bert and gregg. the object is to march along the north bank of the river, fall upon the railroad junction at gordonsville, march down the virginia central railroad to sharlsville where he is to destroy the railroad junction this and pete up the with david miller. he will join the army of the potomac which will have crossed the james river and moved on peetsburg. butler's army in the east, hunters army with the calvary from the west. it's a brilliant plan if it works. so sheridan leaves on the morning of june 7 and within minutes the confederates know about it. why? because a servant who was loyal to the confed rassy left the union camp went straight to tom rosser and reported the movement of this large body of calvary. so robert e. lee is going to respond by sending hampton and lee's division to pe percil. there's nobody really in charge of this expedition. but hampton sort of is but sort of isn't because he doesn't have the authority. but somebody's got to have some ability to be in charge. so they follow along sheridan's and sheridan's gross inexperience as a calvarymen really begins to show for the simple reason as his column marches across the virginia countryside, 9,000 men strong, he doesn't send out scouts. he's got no idea that hampton is in pursuit with two divisions. hampton's iron scouts on the other hand are buzzing all around the edges edges of this union colonel lum. sheridan has no idea that hampton is pursue -- pursuing. he hampton figures out that gordonsville is the objective. he uses the inside route and he gets squarely across sthare dan's line of march in a place called trufle station which is stop about cure eight miles east of gordonsville. the two manders are going to pitch their camps in the area to the north of triffle station. sheridan again no scouts no flankers has no idea that fitz lee is in the town and hampton's division is at trevilian station and they begin to develop plans for the next day. the plans are sheridan is going to split his command. he's going to march through trevilian station, cross the railroad and head out in the direction of gordonsville. custer's column is going to take position just to send up some lee mpton's plan is fits will -- and they're going to pinch sheridan and push him back against the north anna river. the difference is the hampton has got perfect intel and sthare dan has none. earlier in the morning, and i'm talking 4:00, 4:30 in the morning fitz lee marches up the and they engage with the seventh commission calvary, have a sharp little squirmish. fitz breaks off and falls back and we don't hear about him again for a number of hours. again, thinking these are bush whackers sends his guys marching down the mine creek road which is the road that he used to use as his flanking column. when they get to a crossroads called bibs crossroads at about 5:00 in the morning and the leader -- the fellow who's in the lead of the column at this ponet is the commander of the second u.s. calvary, they run into picketts out there of the fifth and sixth south carolina of butler's command who opened fire and immediately captain did -- goes down. captain grdyoon comes up and takes command of the regimen. gordon gets captured almost immediately. within the open minutes of the battle, sheridan is down two commanders. they begin to fall back. in the meantime, the picketts do what they're supposed to do, which is send up the alarm. they begin to fall back. in the meantime, tom rosser and matthew butler have been talking and trying to understand exactly what they're role is to be in the plan and they decide they're going to ride over and go find wade hampton and ask him directly. they find hampton sound asleep. they wake him up and they say to him general hampton, what's your plans for today? and the sleepy wade hampton looks at them and says my plan is to fight. and that's exactly what happens because by that time they hear the first shots. they ride out and they find the action on the fredericksburg stage road and they begin to commit forces to the fight. first butler's south carolinaian and then gilbert wright's combig aid and finally rosser's brigade. at one point there will be a rode -- it's one of those late 1890's met -- medal of honor were given for political reasons. he is one of my favorite soldiers. he will end up come back to duty, will be wounded severely at third winchester and he lost an arm. he will still retire as a bridge deer general which considering he had no formal military training is pretty darn good. there will be a point where sheridan is going to engage. it's the one time that he was spotted -- that i could find in all the years i researched the battle of trevilian where i could find everyday of sthare dan actually being out on the front lines that day. there's a situation where hampton is beginning to get pressed. hampton is k -- being pressed. you see this little position, this is the little plateau. . wade hampton is going to ride off to find the only troops he can find which happens to be the citadel cadet company. hampton will fall in with the citadel rangers and cam ton moses humphrey. carried a large broad sword and he will personally lead a the yankeeshing into calvary. he killed two of them. sthare dan sees this and he orders an attack. he calls over tom devin and he asks devin to send a unit. e will end up ordering the ninth new york command. they will make a dispointed attack that will hit hampton's line just at the right moment because hampton has ordered his command to fall back. as this ninth new york calvary is kicking off, hampton is ordering his men to fall back. o they end up blame -- colonel sack et was killed in action. he was buried in a temporary grave on the battlefield and . 's quite a story i don't have time to get into it today. in any event, the reason why hampton is ordered to withdraw is custer column has come down the road and his turned out on to the gordonsville road, custer is the head of the column has spotted a glittering prize .ecause they're in front of him you see wade hampton's entire train. he spots this and without doing order, - he gives the they come charging down the road in column of four. they crash into this confederate wagon train. they end up capturing much of it. he then starts to commit his other troops. one of the other units that will be committed here is the second nit in line, the sixth calvary command. kidd leads his unit into the direction of the wagon train. about this time, hampton has heard this chaos and orders his troops to begin falling back and the nearest unit to start pitching in. gettingdd and -- end up captured. kidd is freed by one of the quadrons of his company. he survives andersonville. he then survives an explosion. he lived to the ripe old age of 85. this was a tough customer, folks . so custer pitches in blindly as was want to do and suddenly fitz lee division arrives on the field and custer finds himself completely in circle. it's a june day. custer has made a charge blindly into the enemy without doing any recognizance and has found himself surrounded and cut off. does this sound familiar? [laughter] this is custer's first land stand. the difference though is this time custer got reinforced but not for a while. he quickly reizes -- realizes that he's in serious trouble. the officer that he's put in charge of the confederate train and rides over him, he says general where do you want me to take it. he says take it to the rear. then he turns to the officers and say where the hell is the rear? so having gotten his command into this terrible mess, custer was at his finest for the rest of the day. he fought bravely. at one point along with a couple of other men that he mustered around him made a dispointed attack in order to allow the gun crews of pennington's guns to escape. the gun crew was also tended by a fellow by the name of john kennedy and it was another soldier who was with him. kennedy and this other soldier respectively with the hand spike and with their rammer stood at the gun and defended it long enough to allow the rest of the crew to escape. for their troubles they got a trip to andersonville. one of them did not survive. kennedy did survive. and in the 1890's got a very well deserved and much earned medal of honor for his stand at the guns. so custer is in trouble. he's complotely surrounded. he's being fought on all sides. in the meantime, toll bert is trying to find out what custer's disposition is. he starts sending staff officer after staff officer to try and find custer to find out what his dispositions are. one of the staff officers that got sent to him was captain marcus reno who didn't get through. another was captain john kay hopin jer who also was part of the rose butt bud in 1876. george yates who was a company commander under custer at the little big horn was commander of a company in seventh michigan calvary that got surrounded and made it through the first land stand. finally, one of the staff officers gets through, toll bert finds out with the serious problem that custer's got. he orders an all out attack by is brigade and david gregg's two brigades also pitch in. en though custer and merritt didn't like each other, he actually told him how glad he was to see him that day. he's managed to keep the michigan calvary brigade in -- tucked into his uniform so that it would be safe. it's a big deal. one of the people who was captured was his black cook who was known as the queen of sheeba for good reason. eliza was captured by the confederates when the wagon train was captured and so was custer's personal baggage and they ters for libby and were published in the richmond nupes. -- newspapers. she was so obnoxious that they sort of turned their backs and let her speak away and let her escape. that's how bad she was when she got captured. having liberated custer's he is seeingcan -- the elephant this day. it's his first fight and he gets killed in action during the attack to breakthrough and free custerer's command. colonel mcallister is buried in will endery in -- what p happening is that rosser and butler will fall back and they'll fall back to a prominent ridgeline that's just to the west of trevilian station. nd as the afternoon is going away, they decide to make an attack. with rosser on one side and butler on the other, they're going -- going to launch an attack and this is one of only two mounted engagements during the entire battle. rosser is immediately wounded, bullet breaks his leg. he's carried off the field but not before telling colonel delaney that he believes that thrainy should not fight dismounted. he should continue to fight mounted. this attack is repulsed by the union troops and that ends the fighting at the end of the first day at the battle of trevilian station. hampton is going to fall back to a position about three miles away. sheridan again, for reasons i cannot begin to comprehend, doesn't send out scouts. he just assumes that hampton has been beaten and has withdrawn and the battlefield is his. he has no idea that hampton's command is just about three miles away. none whatsoever. so hampton spends the night preparing an incredible stout defensive position that uses and f the railroad sheridan spend spends the morning having his troopers tearing up the railroad between luisa and trevilian station. finally about 1:00 in the afternoon he tells toll bert to take his division and make its way to gordon'sville. because it's time for them to move on to gordonsville. so with custer in the lead, followed by merritt and devin, they move out and they see this defensive line that hampton has forged. they assume that this is infantry they're facing. cut -- custer makes an attack up the railroad tracks and falls back and refuses to attack again and is out of the fight for the rest of the day. which means the focus of the fighting shifts over here. there are seven union attacks launched if that position on the second day of the battle of trevilian station. by the end of the day, the two forces are no more than about 15 yards apart on either side of the railroad tracks. in the meantime, lee's division has made a long flank march around and has gotten into osition such that lo max's brigade has gotten around and they have no idea he is there. -- rder is given that l with him attacking on the flight and with all of the rest of hampton's command attacking from the front, they roll up toll bert's plank and send his command off the field, ending the battle of trevilian station. sheridan claimed that this was a union victory. his orders are to go to gordons vill. he doesn't come close to gordonsville. he doesn't come close to accomplishing any of the objectives that he's been sent on, and he calls it a victory. so it's kind of like richard nixon. declare victory and go home, like we did in vietnam. sheridan ends up not returning to the serve with the army for another 21 days because he ends up on this extended march. he ends up having to pick up most of the supply depot at white house landing. he's got to bring the forces back to the army of the potomac because on the 13th, the day after the second day of the mar ofs list ees grant across the river undetected. it's only because of a spectacular defense cobbled together with a scratch force that they're able to prevent grant from taking petersburg on the 16th of june. on the way, sheridan fights another battle at a at a place .alled samaria church he pounced on gregg. think about this. seven brigades versus two. gregg was lucky to get out of there alive. nearly got captured himself on the way. i don't think he ever forgave david sheridan for that. i think it played heavily in his position to resign. i think he knew sheridan was going to be coming bab and i think he wanted no part of serving under him again. it's not documented and gregg was too much of a victorian gentleman to say such a thing. but i truly believe that's the case. so we have the trevilian raid. ant's move on peterburg in purn meant that the army's were going it end up in basically seethe warfare. grant knew it and robert e. lee knew. and he knew that the numbers did not favor him in such an adventure. he knew from 1862 by sending jackson to the sthan dougha valley -- to the sthan dougha shaly that -- sthan dougha valley he could sthan dougha , on the 14th ugha the corps ends headed in the direction of lynchburg. they march through trevilian station three days after the battle. by then the railroad is nearly repaired. they take the trains all the way to lynchburg and they arrive just in time to repulse david hunter's army which then falls back up the ohio river valley and is effectively out of the war for the better part of the month which freeze early to march down the shenandoah valley and advance on frederick, maryland. they finally defeat the forces there. they move forward and actually engage the outer defenses of washington which in turn forces the 19th and 6th corps to be detached and sent to defend washington, setting the stage for what phil will talk about this afternoon with the 1864 shenandoah valley cam bane. i'll suggest to you that by beating fill sthare dan at trevilian station, this was a decisive battle of calvary fight. by defeating sheridan and his preventing him from linking up with hunter, that in turn enabled the movement to the valley. and the movement to the valley abought the confed rassy another six months of life that it otherwise might not have had because hampton defeated sheridan at trevilian station. i want to finish with a touching story. this is sergeant robert tolls. he had enlisted with his . others one of the brothers was killed in october of 1863. the other one was killed at todd's tavern. robert towels was mortally wounded on the first day of trevilian station and he will daie few days later. his family decided that they were going to keep the brothers together even in death. the other two brothers were disentered and they were brought to luisa and all three of them rest under a single monument in the cemetery. it's a very moving thing. it's sort of akin to a civil war version of the saving private ryian type of a story. you can go visit the towles brothers to this day. there's another grave a few feet away that was to another sergeant of the fourth virginia who was mortally wounded carrying a wounded combat -- comrade off the field. and i have every reason to believe that the wounded comrade he was carrying was robert towles. you can go and visit the towles brothers and you can spend some time and reflect on the single decisive calvary battle that was fought in the civil war. and i'll think you for your ime. >> i have a couple of questions. >> eric, you missed one major thing there that you didn't tell custer got his personal belongings confiscated he was left for one thing. we happen have to know what that is because we need to laugh about that. >> bill is referring to the fact that the only thing custer had left was his toothbrush. and he'll end up -- all of his possessions will end up in the custody of tom rosser. he'll get his revenge on rosser at the battle of tom's brook in october of' 64 when he'll capture rosser's uniform. he'll end sending a note -- he and rosser were very close friends at west point. he'll end up sending a note saying hey the next time you have a uniform made, have it made a little shorter so it fits me beat better. >> i'm having a hard time imaging in my mind what it means to say custer and his brigade are surrounded by confederate calvary. now does that mean they're sort of in a circle pointing outwards because they've got a front completely around them or do they start dismounting? i'm trying to picture -- >> that's a good question. thank you. and i did neglect to raise a little point which i should. is tom rosser will hear the commotion and will order his brigade without orders to do so to make a mounted charge and that's what actually crashes into custer's command. so they're being fought on the front by rosser when hampton falls back, they fall back to a middle position and fitd lee fills in. it is literally encircled. some of the veterans called it a living triangle. these guys are getting shot out at all sides. they do end up dismounting because their horses are a liability in those circumstances. they end up fighting in a circular position back toward the middle until they get relieved. >> [indiscernible] >> the question was did he continue to use standard tactics which is when you dismount calvary one out of every four ends upholding the horses of himself and three of his buddies. somebody had to watch the horses and you've got to maintain the horses as safely as possible. the answer is yes, they did have o do that and use that tactic. >> [indiscernible] >> the question was -- the answer is by that time probably 85% of the army of the potomac's calvary corps had been armed with spencer car beans. they had an effective range of about 300 yards. confederates for the most part are going to be armed with a smattering of miscellaneous single shot such as the confederate sharps. ll of butler's brigade will be armed with rifles. there is a major difference in the technology and a major difference in the weaponry used and it is that weaponry i think is one of the reasons why they wanted toll bert because that weaponry allows them to fight like infantry. and toll bert actually conducts much of the battle of trevilian station as if he were commanding infantry. >> thank you very much. [applause] >> by this time in the war a lot of soldiers have been away from their homes for about three to four years. there were letters sent home saying the farm is falling to pieces. they're taking supplies if us, when are you going to come home. there's a large problem with the decertifications at the time. it wasn't desertions from the standpoint of soldiers not wanting to go into battle but their families really needed them back home. what lee had imposed was a fairly strict set of orders that desserters would be sometimes several definitely occurrences of this happened. the morale was so low about this lesmiserables came out. shelf. it on the >> every weekend we're marking the 150th anniversary with the civil war with our series about the people and the events that shaped the era, saturdays at 6:00 and 10:00 p.m. here on american history tv on c-span 3. >> monday night on the commune indicators, wade baker, chief technology officer and security director for verizon on the recent data breaches. >> we have worked with law enforcement agencies who have busted down doors and dragged people out of their basements literally. have also participated in fairly large scale arrests of multiple individuals that are very highly connected together, we vl organized. .hey each have individual roles and ne writes the software another has the money. there are others that are working on behalf of the government. they have an office. there's recon photos and all of that kind of thing. they go to that building. that's their job is it hack into companies and steal information on behalf of the depoft. i've seen some photos of eastern pals where an in-- in some towns where an insane number of people drive lamborghinis, a lot of that is the spam, the fake pharmaceuticals, the financial fraud, tax fraud and medicare fraud. it's a staggering amounts of money that are at some point along that chain traced back to data that was stolen, stored at a corporation or government. >> monday night at 8:00 eastern on the commune indicators on c-span 2. >> today at 4:00 p.m. eastern. the commission which investigated the november 22nd assassination of president john f. kennedy released its report in september 1964, 50 years ago. today at 4:00 p.m. eastern, cbs report 2 hour that details the findings. it includes interviews with a cbs special report and the warren report, today at 4:00 p.m. eastern here on american history tv on c-span3. collegeckinson professor dissects steven spielberg's movie "lincoln." goes into the historical evidence of the events betrayed, but also highlights areas where steven spielberg exercises artistic freedom. this is a portion of the 2014 civil war symposium. it is about 45 minutes. speaker is matt
internal history they had written of the u-2 spy plane program, written back in the 1970's if i recall correctly. one of the findings was they had gone back and correlated domestic ufo reports with then classified u-2 flights and discovered there was an extremely high correlation. [laughter] this is actually true. a lot of the ufo's that people were seeing was the sun glinting off u-2's but could not the explained at the time. it is a real pleasure to be here. i am flattered by the introduction and by the turnout today. thank you so much to the truman library is to do. today, we will talk about intelligence. american intelligence history has been dominated by the history of the cia, and the cia is an agency whose creation truman oversaw, but it has dominated history to the point where you will hear people who should know better say nothing important happened in american intelligence prior to the cia or its immediate predecessor. this is actually drivel, of course, and nothing -- many of the main components, many of the practices as they were manifested during world war ii, the cold war, and even today have their roots in world war i. that is what i want to talk about today. of course, intelligence involves many different forms of collecting information. world war ii saw a number of them. feel free to ask me about any of these in the question and answer period. we began with aerial photography, which evolved in to the u2 spy plane and satellites. the capture of enemy information. you have been reading a lot about the nsa in the paper the last year. today i want to talk specifically about espionage, american espionage, the use of human beings to acquire information. it was not invented in world war i. there is a joke that it is the second oldest profession in the world. [laughter] you can find references and all sorts of ancient texts. the first battle in human history in which there is a tactical account, i.e. an account of what happens on the battlefield, 1274 b.c.e. and spies played a pivotal role in two different aspects of the battle. espionage has been around for a long time. in the united states, it was widely as during the civil war. that legacy did not carry forward. basically the organization was demobilized and disestablished after the war. in the 1920's when america rediscovered espionage, they were largely doing it from scratch. so, world war i was really a seminal point in a lot of ways. i want to talk about three different ways it played a key role in the development of american espionage. first, it changed the word "spy." during the 19th century "spy" was largely synonymous with scouts. spies are people use it out to look with their eyeballs or maybe binoculars to look at what the enemy was doing and bring reports back. seldom before world war i did the u.s. recruit spies as penetration agents to still governments from inside a government bureaucracy. in fact, to the extent that the u.s. intelligence agencies, such as they were, needed to obtain information from rear receives, this was accomplished by politely asking for us. sometimes that works. however, it war i, plays much more open emphasis on reporting on private enemy conversations, that sort of thankful stop as i talk about the of the spy cases in rest of this conversation, be on the lookout for what kind of spying i am talking about because and world war i -- secondly, u.s. spy agencies had to excerpt with various kinds of cover find , but the official or nonofficial cover being a businessman or other sorts of things, and you will see that reflected in some of the cases i will talk about. third, espionage forced on military intelligence personnel new ways of understanding jogger free, so before world war i, intelligence officers had primarily been required to examine the terrain with an eye of a general. for instance, what kind of pieces of ground may hide enemy forces or provide cover for friendly forces to move around. or were the best positions to but an observation post. now, intelligence officers begin to look at the terrain with a new set of eyes. diplomats or smugglers or international businessman. it was not very important. it might require herculean efforts to get information from a mere 20 miles away but trivial to get information from a thousand miles away. intelligence officers needed to know things like what countries had friendly diplomatic relations with other countries. they need to know what international businesses had branches on both sides of the border or where there was cross-border business traffic or labor moving back and forth. it began important to know where ethnic communities were. or where foreign students went to school because they might have connections back to the old country. in order to get information out of the enemy territory, you had to know things about mail system and what kind of censorship systems. were telegraphed cables ran. all the sorts of things. ok, so, what u.s. government agencies were conducting espionage during world war ii? i will talk about four of them. we will talk about a case or two under the officers of each of these. the state department, the navy, the war department and the american expeditionary forces actually fighting in europe, france. let's start with the state department. as you all know, world war i started in the late summer of 1914. the united states stayed out of the war until april 1917. during that time, germany and to a lesser extent its ally austria-hungary had espionage tactics here in the united states. british intelligence was also primarily active here. during this period of american neutrality, the sacred service secret service, the bureau of investigation and the investigators of the u.s. postal service were very active trying to run down a lot of these espionage and sabotage and fraud cases. they did a lot of tripping over each other. secretary of state robert langdon was concerned about this and proposed creating a special office to review the reports of these investigators from different organizations. he argued that because of the nomadic sensitivities involved, the office should be in the state department and the state department should receive investigators from the bureau of investigation. justice wanted nothing to do with this which is the theme of americans. [laughter] in april of 1916, the secretary created the bureau of secret intelligence. it's job was to issue instructions to agents and digest and analyze the reports without they're going through the regular channels of the departmental correspondence. the leadership of the bureau of secret intelligence went to a man named leland harrison. one colleague described him as a secretive man who was very interested and good at espionage. he worked very well at naval and military intelligence. thanks to his efforts, the state department was the closest thing we had to a central interagency coordinator of intelligence that existed during world war i. many of you probably know a man named allan bellis who was the director of the cia during the eisenhower administration. most of these gentlemen have -- both of these gentlemen have connections with them. secretary lansing was an uncle. leland harrison during world war ii served for the oss in britain. he was a real senior diplomat. the bureau of secret intelligence did a lot of domestic work. in 1916, ever since salty over topping of the telegraph lines led by joseph nye. you would give a daily report to the secretary on what they would learn. one particular in january 1917, nye was able to tell the secretary that the german ambassador was about to tell him later in the day that germany had declared unrestricted submarine warfare out in the atlantic, which is what was one of the big things that brought the u.s. into the war. secretary lansing was so impressed with what nye was doing that he made them as special assistant to the secretary and making him the first security officer for the state department. harrison brought nye into the bureau of secret intelligence and gave him the title of chief special agent. he started recruiting other special agents from the postal service. at least one of these were sent overseas to cairo to report on the military in political situations there. in fact, the bsi came out of state department attempted to deal with domestic security issues. it also did a lot of things with foreign issues. through means that are still a little obscure to me, they obtained codebooks used by foreign government and passed this material to the war department. that is fast something of the order of 15 officers overseas to conduct espionage. they operated in places like switzerland. revolutionary russia, netherlands and the mexican border area. mexico being a major concern at that time but we will not get into that. one of those officers that they sent abroad was a man named james mcnally. these excerpts from the new york times gives of the sense of the drama that surrounded his life. here you see a reference to the state department having refused to confirm his nomination. here a report on his death two years after world war i avenue and being broken down and health due to heart disease. he was an immigrant to the u.s. from britain and he joined the state department consular service, which is separate from the foreign service at this time. he got consistently unenthusiastic appraisals room his superiors. in 1917, things got worse. he was posted in china where an american businessman accused him of embezzlement in 1909, a charge that dogged him for years and was later why he was not confirmed by the senate for a post in germany. in germany, a colony in china, he became very popular and friendly with the german population and his daughter married a german naval officer. right about this time, his health gets pretty bad. he had heart disease. he had to resign his position and recover his health. as his health was coming back, the state department, which probably would've been happy never to see him again, under the influence of his important friends, which included president woodrow wilson's secretary, offered him a nomination to be consul in nuremberg, germany, which he was turned down for. his alleged impropriety back in china. he was then put into a lower ranking position which did not require confirmation. during this time serving in germany just before world war i, mcnally developed contacts in the german navy through his son-in-law. his son-in-law's father was an admiral and a personal friend of the kaiser's. mcnally passed this information that he acquired through these contacts. a naval officer attached to the embassy in berlin to be a military diplomat and to collect overt, non-clandestine intelligence. he passed this over and we thought his work was invaluable. for instance -- the in january 1917, germany announces unrestricted submarine warfare which is a turning point for the united states but also for mcnally. in the next month, he comes back to the united states and gets a meeting with the secretary of state and delivers the briefing on the submarine situation which made such a big impact. the department tried again to get him confirmed as consulate in switzerland. he is rejected and is made of vice consulate in zürich where he is able to maintain his german contacts. now, mcnally's reporting was remarkably rich and nuanced and appeared to answer a lot of american intelligence needs. in mid april of 1917, he reported to washington about the details of a december 16 memorandum. urging unrestricted warfare which give a lot of insight into german strategic thinking. in august of 1917, he submitted a lengthy report on the food situation in germany and the variety of tidbits, including the sinking of the lusitania and german estimates of allied shipping they sunk every month. in february 1918 -- ok -- perhaps we should carry on. and every of 1918, he reported had the german chancellor wanted to restore belgium for the sake of peace. we are good. ok. we will carry on. in june of 1918, he reported the nine submarines that left the base bound for the american coast and he gave the names of some of the captains. mcnally, despite the information he was providing, was hard to work with. he was disgruntled that has rank did not correspond with his contributions to national security. in august 1917, he boasted that "no country had ever entered a war with such a detailed knowledge of an enemy's fighting branch such as ours due to my work." president wilson was sympathetic and urged action on secretary lansing who manage the pay raise but cannot get a formal promotion but led mcnally to complain to the number two in the state department. he said it was costing the country thousands of lives and millions of dollars. mcnally's ego and a radical ways did not endear him to americans and allies around him in zürich and doubts rose about his loyalty. it was kind of novel at the time. mcnally was openly associating with his german officer for son-in-law. and was known to make rash statements that could be known as anti-british or anti-french. most of his close friends in switzerland were pro-german. a lot of americans were really uneasy about this. allen dulles was there at the time and recounted he could never figure out of mcnally was a crook or a good american. other american officials were less ambivalent and thought he was a traitor. things came to a boil in march 1918 when the french requested and received permission to arrest mcnally as he cross to the spanish-french border. he arrives in paris to be grilled. the first person who gets to them as a u.s. military intelligence officer who says oh, great, you are here, let's talk about joint espionage operations, and then the security people said no, we want to talk to him. the interrogated him for a month. while the was happening, the british were intervening saying to send this guy home. he had friends in high places. leland harrison stayed by him, even though he admitted the reliability of mcnally's information was falling off. he said the military intelligence division and naval intelligence wanted and still on the job. he was returned to switzerland because president wilson said send him back to switzerland where he still had enemies and there was another round of this. allen dulles wrote to his uncle saying he didn't know if he was a traitor or not but maybe working with the allies so difficult that he should come home for the sake of the alliance. the secretary of the u.s. continued torich intrigue against him. it led wilson to write something to the secretary. "i am sorry that they feel the way they do about mcnally, but i think they should abide loyally by our decision to keep him in switzerland." we see more of the element involved and they do and i don't know who he is but whoever he is he should mind his own business. he was released and sent somewhere else and dies a year later and the state department , was probably glad to see him go. the navy department -- the office of naval intelligence was created back in 1883 which led to development of the first permanent intelligence organization in american history. an fact, the office of u.s. naval intelligence still exists. by the time world war i came along, it started out as a progressive forward thinking organization but by the time the i came along, it was not well respected or effective. the navy intelligence efforts were by far the least productive and less sophisticated of all the government intelligence organizations. in june 1915, the navy secretary approved a plan to allow to do secret work. in may 1916, the chief of naval operations allowed various intelligence operations and keep the list of such dependable persons up to date. prepare secret service and decipher codes to communicate with such agents. oni was happy to do this and recommended that they are among the ex-pat communities in portugal, singapore, and china. these intelligence agents should be chosen not by the naval, but by retired officers or officers who were traveling allegedly on leave. oni focused primarily on china. the results were not impressive. the operations in europe were similarly modest and marked by amateurism. the head of oni, allowed that the men alike babes of innocence despite their drinking and playing and profanity. he said they were not up to it in diplomacy and intrigue nor indeed in wisdom. the only really good intelligence officer that oni implanted in europe during the war was brack who did some espionage in spain. the navy's main effort in human intelligence collection was through attaches. during the war, oni dispatched agents to countries in which there was no naval act -attache. and when there was no naval medications but they were shortcomings among these agents as well. the u.s. lacked with germany had was men with an understanding of secret service methods. oni had civilian volunteers with the right language skills and sent them overseas. damning with faint praise, the report noted that the greater number of agent selected were found fairly competent and some of them developed ability of high order. these agents likely relied on american businessmen. oni also relied on the state department to allow them to take naval officers and appoint them as consular officers and pretend to be civilians overseas. before the war, they put a lot of emphasis on asia but during the war, oni put effort into latin america. there was a great deal of concern that there might be a secret german submarine base in mexico or central america. it would allow german submarines to wreak havoc on ship transports going to europe. or maybe concerned the german radio stations are in mexico or latin america. oni began hiring anthropologists as agents to conduct anthropological reconnaissance. as you might imagine, the navy was not particularly interested in mayan ruins but they were really interested in german submarines. there was a wonderful book written about sylvanus morley. ultimately there was not a german submarine base, and the work they did was pretty irrelevant but pretty interesting. i also think he looks like a whole lot of young indiana jones. [laughter] othersk of morley and like him for the navy in mexico and central america -- the debate that really continues as reverberated to this day. when the war was over, one of morley's colleagues who is not now generally recognized as one of the founding fathers of american anthropology. he was rather a leftist and more sympathetic to the german allies during the war, wrote an impassioned letter in which he said a person who uses science as a cover for political spying demeans himself as an investigator and asks for assistance in his alleged researches in order to carry on under this cloak his political machinations, prostitute science in an unpardonable way to be classified as a scientist. pretty harsh words. boaz was actually censured by his colleagues at the time for saying this. over time, his point of view actually carried the day in the anthropological community. i believe it is the american anthropological association who rescinded the censure a few decades ago. they're very leery with working with the government, in particular the cia. war department. a much bigger player than the navy in the espionage. it was first created under a different name in 1885. it actually was then reorganized accidentally out of existence as a result of the reforms of the war department which were instituted in the early 1900's by the secretary of war. the war department did not have the central intelligence organization as the war loomed. one army officer, ralph van deman, shown here who had experiences in intelligence officers in the philippines war started to agitate for military intelligence to be re-created was in 1917 with him as the head. he served there until 1918 and was replaced by marlborough churchill. a more anglo-saxon name i dare you to find. [laughter] the mid's biggest function was counterintelligence in the united states during the war. there was a broad range of other intelligence. one of the things it also did was administered military communications, officers serving abroad as the bull diplomats. they learned from the british and french colleagues. the key posts for spying against the germans overseas were in switzerland, and the netherlands and denmark. i will talk briefly about netherlands and denmark. the netherlands was particularly important because it bordered both germany and the german occupied belgium. it was a convenient place to move spies across the border. the germans became aware of this and erected the wire of death -- an electric fence along the border to stop spies. the u.s. military in the netherlands was a gentleman named colonel edward davis. he is the one on the left. here is a better photo of him. he is the one on the right here. davis found that operating out of the netherlands, you cannot use americans to penetrate germany because they always give themselves away and americans cannot pass as german. he found that normal trade could be used to bring people across the border and a lot of people conducted business across the dutch-german border. attachés used a chain system that allowed the officer to go into the target territory passing orders in one direction and receiving information without the source of information being aware it was going to the americans. davis had seven or eight systems of spies, some in the netherlands, some in germany, and some in belgium. and the netherlands, the office had a somewhat flashy case. someone reported -- someone got a journalist. the german intelligence press guidance on what they did not want one printed in the newspaper. this provided useful clues on the western front -- german propaganda and strings among the central powers and cross statistics and other important economic information. the office ran other important cases as well. western germany, someone davis described as an older gentleman, was an important source of german military plans. this german had a friend who was a german colonel of engineers. he would share this information with his group of friends. davis got information when they would withdraw when the collapse came in the west. one of the primary tasks of allies was organizing train watching, which was to say the british and the french organized and recruited people in occupied belgium and back in germany. people doing the normal course of their business would spend the day overlooking train tracks and would count trains. it was discovered that german military trains had different numbers of cars and different configuration of cars depending on what kind of unit it was. this was taken from a memoir from a british intelligence officer. the british and the french had this cooperative system of reporting on these matters and that information provided to the timing and direction of impending german offensives and helped them learn whether the germans were transporting germans from the western front to the eastern front or vice versa. by doing this, train watching to provide warning father in farther in advance albeit with less precision and more of a time lag. just to give you some sense -- here is a diagram passed to the americans right as we were entering the war of train traffic in belgium on one particular day. the americans did not really do any of this in the netherlands. they did not want to step on the allied toes. they did do this out of denmark. the u.s. attache in denmark but these ideas to work and discovered it. they were working on establishing systems in different parts of denmark. finally of the four agencies i would talk about -- the last one is the american expeditionary forces. this is primarily the army who fought primarily in france under the command of general john j. pershing who recently came back from commanding the punitive expedition in mexico where he unsuccessfully chased poncho villa. the core what became his staff, departed for france in the spring of 1917, he took with them an intelligence officer. dennis nolan who you see on the right. the only intel officer he had initially. anr time, nolan built organization that ran into the low 100's. the american expeditionary force created divisions and other organized by him. this section in charge of espionage and counterespionage was called g2b which was headed first by lieutenant colonel and who had been pershing's and who had chief in fact been involved in the failed plot to poison pancho vi lla's coffee. he did not drink enough of it. by a major officer also. nolan interesting enough, once he got some experience, he found that clandestine intelligence was less interesting and less useful in providing timely information about what was going on in the battlefields. for instance, the work of the code people or the aerial reconnaissance folks. he found it useful in getting strategic information about german government policy, the economic situation, morale, changes in commanders. despite nolan's lack of enthusiasm about espionage, they was rather active in this field. there was a network of russian agents previously controlled by the russian military, russia having completely, part in the come apart in the bolshevik revolution. g2b amounted to the boulder operations of award using a czech immigrant. he was a czech-american from bohemia. voska was an ardent supporter of czechoslovakia and was the american representative of the masaryk, who would become the first president of czechoslovakia. under orders to help the allies out, voska formed an 84 person intelligence organization headquartered in new york, which penetrated german operations here in the u.s. when voska's organization gathered information on the sba , it would sabotage pass to the american intelligence, first to an attach e, later to organization known as what we know as mi-6. also to the providence, rhode island journal. [laughter] over time, the organization passed things on to the justice department bureau investigation and some of the newspapers as well. the organization sources were primarily ethnic czechoslovakian's and people who would become as yugoslavs. the people who held official positions in the empire. his group had four different penetrations into the office of the austrian consulate general in new york. his work also required extensive communication with fellow revolutionaries back in austria-hungary. when the united states entered the war, domestic operations were turned over to the u.s. government. the head of the military intelligence division thought this was a fabulous idea. secretary of war was rather less enthused because his concern was much of what voska wanted to do when europe was to cause disturbances within the enemy territory which are the secretary noted was the kind of thing president woodrow wilson said the germans were doing in the u.s. nevertheless, voska got position as a captain in the army and was able to choose three lieutenants to work for him which he recruited. before he departed for france, he consulted with the state department which charged him with certain things they wanted accomplished in austria-hungary. he also met with the committee on public information which was the united states propaganda agencies. the word propaganda did not have necessarily the negative connotations it has today during world war i. propaganda was good if they came from us. he met with the committee of public information to discuss how he can help them in propagandizing austria-hungary. he took all of these ideas to friends. he arrived in france in 1918. he found himself in charged of a section collecting military, economic, and political information from germany-austria-bulgaria and the occupied parts of france and italy. italy being one of the british and french allies. in his first report which he sent to his superiors eight days after he arrived, he said it was very urgent to start immediate revolutionary acts throughout turkey, romania, hungary, and austria. he thought by stirring up national revolution, the allies could impede the central powers 's ability from moving east to west and vice versa. he also thought that graded increase requirement for enemy troops in southern europe thus spreading the enemy forces even thinner. he thought it might be possible and defense danube and industrial facilities on enemy soil and he collected information as well. he had additional people from his new york days. he had volunteers from czechoslovakia, france, and italy. in the netherlands he joined , forces with a former courier from his organization who was put in charge of an effort to collect information on your munitions factories in western germany and was able to set up in 1915 which established a courier service into product prague. when inserting people into belgium, people typically got them across the border as vendors or laborers because there was a lot of cross-border traffic and this sort of thing and they would bring back a lot , of information. he conducted his most important operations out of italy and against the austrian hungarian empire. even before he came to italy, czechoslovakian deserters set up with the help of an italian army using line crossers and bringing out military information for from sympathetic units of the austrian army and also distributing propaganda. when voska arrived, he was running these efforts with the help of the americans. he found the austrian army was rife with revolutionaries. furthermore, the austrian army organized its units into ethically-based units. there will be a czech regiment, and a polish regiment, and a this regiment and a that regiment. and tired units were vulnerable units were vulnerable to revolutionaries. he found was not much need to distribute propaganda because it was so ripe with these units. he also helped the italian army raise a czech legion which also grew to the size of a corps. in october 1918, austria was coming apart. the emperor was trying to contain these explosive forces and issued ambiguous victory that could have been read as dissolving the empire. people started to walk home. a national government started to form in different cities. in october 1922, hungary declared their independence. hyundai area and soldier started walking home. a lot of tectonic forces were in work. as this was going on, voska's organization managed to bring out an austrian officer sympathetic to the cause and handed them the battle plans. voska took this information to the italian army and urged an offensive. the italian commander probably took voska's information as confirmation of what he already knew. it would deal a death blow to the austria-hungary army. in october 1924, the italians supported by various at life forces, lost an offensive and the austrian army collapsed. i have gone rather longer than i initially intended to. just a few words in closing. i hope i have done a couple of things here. maybe aside from tell some fun stories. and hopefully conveyed a little bit of the business of espionage. how it was conducted a century ago and by looking at that, you can understand more and giving you another way of understanding world war i and underlying with what everybody knows which is the pivotal role in modern history of that war. i would be glad to take any questions you may have. if people interested in asking questions can come up to the microphone. i would be happy to talk about any other aspects of intelligence. thank you. [applause] question here. >> thank you, dr. stout. i would like to ask you about -- you said you had these four organizations that came out of world war i that served as the template for the development of american intelligence institutions and agencies. about the talk was fascinating but we always wonder what happens when the peace comes. i am interested in your position because i suspect you look at this with the office of naval intelligence. what is the impact of the red scare on of the development of these institutions? >> it is really interesting. right after world war i, there was a red scare and at one point, they thought the united states might be days away from an actual civil war. one of the things this did was it helped create this notion that peace is very hard to define. the american tradition was you have entities a varying degrees once war is over, they go away. -- varying degrees of formality -- and once war is over, they go away. they went away after the civil war and revolutionary war. that red scare made that much more difficult. there is no shooting but now there is this new kind of war that was actually similar to what the germans were doing. we need to carry on. so that provided in added raison to the people who said we only do this during wartime. it is true that all the agencies decreased in size and budget during the interwar. period. i looked at this with the american intelligence division. of the common -- the common wrap on this was that m.i.d. ran out of business. if you compare the numbers of people in the military intelligence division to the number of people in the u.s. army, which clearly did not go out of business, it hit some hard times but did not go out of business, they declined and in precise proportions. this carried on. in fact, in the military intelligence division one of the , things they did in early 1919 was they wrote an official history of what they had done during the war. they wrote one copy of it. let it all hang out -- all the good and bad things we did. they kept it in the files and up until about 1975, anybody that knew was made to read it. it was 2400 pages long. by the way. [laughter] goodably not a goo introduction into the organization. the intelligent effort certainly shrank during the interwar period. sir? >> thank you, dr. stout. i do not have a question but i have a comment. >> uh oh. [laughter] >> i was fortunate to be selected as a special agent for the intelligence corps. >> it had its origins in the world war i as the corps of intelligence police. >> yes, yes, thank you. this is so fascinating to me. what i learned is there a lot more going on that you are ever will able to tell us. at the training headquarters in maryland, there was a lot of posters and sayings. one of the sayings was similar to what you started talking about that espionage is the world's second oldest profession. the rest of that said it doesn't have the high moral standards. [laughter] [applause] >> i think we can agree although it was not a question, it was still worth it. are you going to try and top that? ok. >> i actually have a question. the americans were late to the war, late starting their intelligence operations. my question is -- did france, britain reach out to america during the early years of the war and try to get them involved in an intelligence aspect? >> during the period american neutrality? >> yes. >> no, not really. they wanted to stay out of the way of the americans and they do not have tremendous respect for security services at that time. when we did enter the war, the british and the french put a real full-court press on the united states and said fine, you can run operations in latin america or denmark, that would be harmless. [laughter] for god's sake, do not find anything on the netherlands because you will step on our toes. and by the way, we don't think the american expeditionary force needs to do much in the way of intelligence. we will do it for you. they were afraid we would not do it competently. the british did not even really want the american expeditionary force to be an independent army of its own. the real preference was the americans send either individual replacement soldiers to the british army or maybe small units. pershing has some abstract administrative position but they really wouldn't be an american army. they were pitted to that context. pershing and the u.s. government were having none of that. but, they tried. sir? >> my question is about the flu. how did that play into any of the people that were involved? >> that is a good question. i will probably disappoint you by saying i haven't really seen much of anything in the records of the influenza playing any particular role in influencing intelligence activities. obviously, they were all afraid of it. it was effecting everyone around them, but in terms of anything beyond that, i don't know. >> i think my question may be a repeat of his. i could not hear too well. can you give us some examples of battles or even skirmishes for where intelligence played a role? >> that is a really great question. on the american side, the americans really only engaged in two major offenses. they helped in a modest way in defending against the german spring offenses. american intelligence was, to be frank, not pivotal in the actual military operations. american intelligence played some role in the senior commanders, so pershing and his staff and back in washington so , they are understanding the general strategic direction of what is going on. but, intelligence was -- the important thing about intelligence was it was performing the mundane, day-to-day order of battle like understanding who the children german forces are across from us and how many are there. how many divisions can we expect the germans to bring in terms of reinforcements to help defend once we attack in how many days. it is important but not dramatic like a big turning point kind of -- we stole the key document and it told us we need to go over there. that was really none of that. you got some that during world war ii, but in world war i, it was more day in, day out, daily grind of intelligence. not a whole lot of sexy in terms of decision-making and dramatic turning points. >> you touched on this on moment ago. when we came into it, our sophistication of intelligence operations was not apparently all that great. what did the british and the french think of us when we came and had that opinion it changed any by the time the war was over and we had our legs under us? >> their view of us when we came it was pretty disdainful. that was not entirely unfair. by the end of the war, the american intelligence effort was entirely respectable. it was not as good as the british or the french, but it was in the ballpark. considering we had been belligerent for almost 20 months and really seriously in france only for 11, that was quite respectable. i think the british and the french acknowledged that. they thought they were better and they were. and there was some degree of coal troll air against, but by and large, we got strong marks of improvement from the british and the french. we cooperated a lot with the french intelligence but less with the british simply because there were some minor exceptions -- american forces were not really fighting alongside the british, mostly the french. after the war, there were discussions between american and british intelligence officials about how -- we can see in what turned out to be the interwar period -- they did not call it that -- there may be some grounds for intelligence operations in places where our interest overlaps in other places we can slit our throats which was the phrase the officer from mi used. the americans were respectable. >> you mention a number of times that a number of these kind of intelligence agencies were primarily concerned with domestic counterespionage. can you expand a bit on what the types or extent of german hungarianan-on gar espionage was during the war? >> the germans and the austrian to a lesser extent were quite active in clandestine and espionage operations during the neutrality here in the u.s. much of what they were doing was trying, in various ways, to make it difficult for the united states to continue selling munitions to the allies. for instance in 1916, they blew up a munitions dump outside new york. that was munitions that was contracted to go to russia. there was an effort against pak animals we were selling to the allies. there were some explosions at ammunition factories. the germans were also trying to fight the british on our soil in the sense that there were a lot of americans or immigrants to america who had come from parts of the british empire and had kind of a grudge. or at least many of those people in those communities had a grudge against england like the , irish-americans and the indian americans for instance. there were some efforts to whip up anti-british fervor among those communities as well. the british spent a lot of time trying to thwart this. during the war itself -- there were minimal laws against this at the time in the united states -- when the united states entered the war, actual german and austria-hungarian espionage activity dropped to near zero because suddenly it became dangerous. you are likely to end up paying a from the end of a rope. end of ag from the rope. also, espionage at least requires some degree of communication back to the home country and it became very difficult for somebody in the united states to secretly communicate with german intelligence back in berlin during this time. there were lots and lots of reported spies in world r i during the time we were actually in the war, very few. a lot of very silly misconceptions among the american population. >> thank you. one of the turning points and americans wanted to get involved the u.s.war i is government intercepted a message from germany going to mexico after mexico entered the war. they said they would get texas. can use plain how that occurred? >> that is the zimmerman telegram and it was intercepted by the british and deciphered and made available to the americans as a way of influencing us to give us further reason -- reasons were stacking up pretty heavily during that time -- reasons to go to war against the germans. that was a naval intelligence operation by the british. ma'am? >> hi. i am wondering how all this espionage activity fed into the paranoia of the american people. how much did they know? i know you weren't supposed to say sauerkraut, you said liberty cabbage. german measles became something. >> a really? that i did not know. the american public was -- once we actually entered the war, they were aware of german spies. there were very few. the public and the u.s. government spent a lot of effort investigating a lutheran church where the lutherans were largely germans. they investigated one naval officer, i believe, because his housekeeper looked german. my personal favorite -- there was, the u.s. consul at, i want to say laredo, texas, they had occasion to be on the mexican side of the border, and they noticed these blinking lights coming from the american side of the river. they thought this must be somebody signaling to german agencts here in mexico. a big investigation ensued and they discovered it was from a boarding house on the u.s. side of the border. on the back porch there was a bare lightbulb hanging down the porch on a wire. [laughter] the wind would make it swing and would intermittently be obscured by the shrubbery. this was heavily investigated. [laughter] it is funny today, but at the time, this was deadly serious stuff. german spies were everywhere except that they weren't. [laughter] thank you. >> thank you so much, mark, for being here. we will see you next time. [applause] [captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2014] [captioning performed by national captioning institute] >> you are watching american history tv all weekend, every weekend on c-span3. to join the conversation, like us on facebook. @cspanhistory. >> monday night on the "communicators," wade baker for verizon on the recent data breaches at home depot, target, and jpmorgan chase. the above.uly all of we have worked with law enforcement agencies who have busted down doors and drugs people out of their basement, literally. in ave also participated fairly large scale arrests of multiple individuals that are very highly connected together, very well organized. they each have individuals of .heology's and roles someone writes malicious software, the others know how to wash the money and all of these things, just like physical organized crime, and then there are others that definitely are working on behalf of the government. they have an office, there are pictures of it, there are reconnaissance and all of that kind of thing going out to work, and they go to that building, that is their job, to hack into companies, to steal information on behalf of a government. i have seen some photos of some eastern european towns, for , that where just under an insane amount of people drive lamborghinis. the spam, the fake pharmaceuticals, the financial fraud and tax fraud in all of these things, it is staggering stored of money that are at a corporation or government. >> on the communicators on c-span2. eastern,at 4:00 p.m. the warren commission, which investigated we will show it to our cvs special report from 1964 the details the findings of the warren commission. interviews with lee harvey all slots wife and mother -- oswald's wife and mother.
-- john dillinger, is living right behind us in apartment 303 of st. paul's lincoln court apartment. to basically regroup to get his bank robbery gang ready for a times the. he was here, enjoying time with his girlfriend. enjoying the movies just one block away from us here and meanwhile, his gang is getting weapons, getaway cars, and deciding which banks they would rob from their home base here in st. paul. the fbi did not know this was john dillinger, but they begin to get tips that a strange man was living in this apartment building. shades were always drawn to the bottom. john dillinger's girlfriend comment beautiful woman, would come out and hang up john dillinger's laundry, dressed in a halter top and short shorts. 80's, members 70 years ago when dillinger was here, i've talked to them. they said, this girl was so beautiful. they still remember his girlfriend. the fbi sent a crew here to knock on dillinger's door. but they did not know. thought it was someone else, his alias. -- walkingching toward john dillinger's apartment. all you know is that there is something suspicious in apartment 303. dillinger is in bed with his girlfriend, who opens the door, peace out, and you, the fbi, say, ma'am, we are here to speak to carl. the dear woman forgets her own alias. couldys carl, my husband the fbi are not fools. they said, ma'am, we are staying here. you go and get carl. she runs an says, john, the jig is up here it john dillinger, cool as a cucumber, puts on his pants, gets his machine gun, comes to the store, opens it, leans out, and starts firing machine gun bullets out of the store. the police and the fbi start firing back at him. the door is chewed up by bullets. to give you a sense, john dillinger, not a master criminal, not a single bullet from his gun hits any of the fbi agents in the actual quarter you are in right now. one bullet from the fbi and the police is gone hits john dillinger in the fight. incredibly, john dillinger has escaped from the fbi shoe out -- chewed out. he comes out the store. dillinger is wounded in the leg, so he races over here, stands here holding a submachine gun in one area -- one hand and a gun in the other, and tells his girlfriend, get the getaway car. literally, the most wanted man in america is standing here bleeding like a stuck take, a this building next door, sees a man who he recognizes as john dillinger, bank robber, reaches under his bed, takes out a shotgun, and aims it at dillinger, who is here. the kit is seconds from becoming the boy who killed john dillinger, when his mother, ,earing the stud -- the shots tackles her son, throws him to the ground, and dillinger is not killed in st. paul. he gets in the getaway car with his girl, and he roars away to wisconsin for a little rest and relaxation at the lodge. the deal between the crooks and the cops, which had stood for years, meaning the crooks lived here but they do not kill or kidnap anyone here, fell apart. click the history of the building we're in right now, today called landmark center, but in the 1930's, the public enemies era, it was the old federal courts building, the history is incredible. above our heads on the fifth floor is the offices of the prohibition bureau. the man who headed the prohibition bureau was the man who wrote the american prohibition law. andrew, a congressman from granite falls, minnesota, who created prohibition in this building. then, when prohibition was repealed and all of these bootleggers, what were they going to do? liquor was legal. they turned to bank robbing, kidnapping, extortion, and murder, and that is what this building became here the fbi, the federal bureau of investigation, had the building as their headquarters. as they say, if these walls could talk, what notorious stories they could tell. mid-1930's, john dillinger's girlfriend, evelyn, was tried successfully in this room. before she was found guilty of harboring her boyfriend, john dillinger, she tried to escape. she said she had to go to the ladies room. the federal marshals followed her through the door. then, the man, the marshall, somewhat shy, went back, allowing dillinger's girlfriend to go to the bathroom, at which point, she simply kept on going down the hallway and tried to escape. fortunately, the federal marshals overcame their shyness about a female convict and grabbed her and made sure she to the escape en route powder room. the fbi was quite concerned the dillinger gang would try to come here with their machine guns and free dillinger's girlfriend. so in the porches you see behind my head, there were federal marshals armed with shotguns and some machine guns, waiting in case any members of the gang would show up to liberate their comrades. it never happened, but you can imagine what it was like in this room in the sweltering heat of the summers when all the gangsters were here and everybody was waiting to see if other gangsters with machine guns would come and try to free them. basement ofin the the landmark center, which is open to the public. right here is the radiator that the director of the f e i j edgar hoover, kept one of the public enemies handcuffed two, just before hoover dragged him into the court room to have him convicted. he pled guilty to the kidnapping of the 1930's. this is a photo of alvin, a fascinating character who has something of a heart. he promises many kids were around, he would make sure the kids were not he -- were not killed. if he did a shoot out with fbi. he pled guilty of kidnapping and spent decades in prison. all of the out, ill-gotten loot, his ransom and hank robbery loot, was in the bank. accruing full interest while carcass was in prison. purpose gets out of prison, an old man. a wealthy man. he goes to spain, where he is seen eating fried food, cavorting with 19-year-old girlfriend's pure one night, he takes an overdose of sleeping pills and takes his own life. i think he just knew his time had come. he enjoyed the good life as a gangster and decided to end his life. this building is both the thattion of prohibition led to widespread organized crime all over america. that is how al capone got his start as a bootlegger. 84 and 1935 and 86, this is also the building bank robbers were tried and sent to alcatraz prison and other prisons across america. it is where it began and ended. every gangster in america came here. the 1930's, in would not call it las vegas, but it was a lively city. had therohibition, you biggest jazz artists of the partially because the gangsters were wealthy. we're only a few yards away from river in downtown st. paul, but we are in the back in the-- 1920's and 1930's, this was called the castle royale, run as a gambling casino. underground caves has a fascinating history. made caves were naturally in soft limestone by water dripping from the mississippi river. when prohibition was passed, it is dark, cold, private, let's fill the room with illegal beer and then prohibition was repealed. filled bootleggers who said, ok, here is legal. let's do nightclubs. the gangsters of st. paul and the good people who like partying with gangsters, this anda nightclub as well as other cave nearby, filled with sex he does, chandeliers, kitchens, but mind you, it was also where john dillinger and notorious gangsters also like to hang out. the appeal of the underground nightclub was that you were with the most wanted bank robbers in america. today, we look at the mafia with horror. organized, terrible people. but in those days, bank robbers like john dillinger were seen .lmost like robin hood they were seen as post-depression, when the close -- the bank would foreclose on your house or farm or the banks were not really popular. kind of antiheroes who were evening the score after the .epression totally untrue. they were killers who wanted money. with them, you drank that they would not kill you. because there was a deal between the cost -- the cops and the crooks. bank robber orss kidnapper coming into minnesota coming to chicago. there were rules. the rules were, you would identify. hello, my name is al capone. you would get a bride to police, here is a jewelry we still in chicago. here you go. if you needed a place to stay, police would arrange for housing for you as a bank robber. machine guns gun, in america were available to you here in st. paul. if you needed a getaway car, there were auto dealers in st. paul who specialized in bank robbery getaway cars, heavily armored on both sides to deflect police alerts. if you needed a girl, female companionship, the police would arrange. in fact, alvin the gangster met the love of his life here in st. paul. storeall was a department , essentially, for gangsters. if you needed a girl, a gun, launder money, a getaway car, you came to st. paul and the police made sure you as a gangster got whatever you needed. the fbi were trustworthy and not corrupt. crazy thate fbi police in st. paul, minnesota, were in the pockets of gangsters . when ma barker was living on south roberts street in st. paul, only a few miles from where we're standing today, the fbi got a tripwhen ma barker wad her dad boys were there. the barker gang. the fbi raced to the house. by the time they got there, the barker gang was gone, tipped off by the same call police. there was no love lost between the fbi of j edgar hoover, and the corrupt local police who were taking bribes, on the take from the underworld. to, in a way, live the high life and leave a good-looking corpse. that is what happened. they ate well and slept with you for women, drank wonderful line. i think the gangsters knew their lives were short and they lived that gangster life in st. paul. quests throughout the weekend, american history tv is featuring st. paul, minnesota. our tour staff recently traveled to learn about its rich history. tour more on c-span's city . you're watching american history tv, all weekend, every weekend, on c-span three. ♪ >> each week, american artifacts takes viewers into archives, museums, and historic sites around the country. next, we visit fort mchenry national monument and historic shrine in baltimore to learn about the birth of the "star spangled banner." >> we're now here on the gun deck of fort mchenry. we also call it the water battery. as would have been the main line of defense against the british ships. the war of 1812 was one of america's most unpopular wars. that is because the causes were complex. they were brought here and install in fort mchenry. 36 pound iron ball. over a mile. so, no wonder the british never wanted to get very close. if you look down here at the cannonball, you can see a difference between me 18 pound shot the fort fired, and the 36 pound spot. if i was the royal navy, i would not want to get that close to that. one more thing before we go into the fort is how strong these defenses were and why the british chose a long-range bombardment instead of trying to take the fort straight on. if you look behind me, you will see a lighthouse. that was not there at the time. at that neck of the channel, the american strong up the chain-link boon. imagine telephone poles chain together. that's blocked the channel. behind that, americans had a rowboat with canon. behind that, the americans sunk ships. for the british to win the battle and get their vessels into the port of baltimore to destroy the city, they would have had to have knocked out that chain, saw through it, fight off the american boats, raise the sunken ship, and knock out all of the cannons of fort mchenry. it was tough. so the british decided on a long-range bombardment, hoping they can knock out the guns of the fort, maybe scare the americans. that is why they chose to rely on the five ships that could fire a 200-pound shell two miles. everyone knew that the cannons of the time are only good for a little more than one mile. they anchor halfway to the bridge. the british had one rocket ship. a british rocket is as big as we are. they look like fiery fingers in the night sky. or during the day they look like a jet plane. they would come in, boom and explode in and around the fort. they were not that accurate, but if you have never seen one before and if you are a defender and it is your first battle, it was like shock of awe of 1814. >> you can watch this and many other american artifacts programs anytime by visiting our website. , on they night communicators, wade baker, chief technology officer and security director for verizon on the recent data breaches of home depot, target, and jpmorgan chase. >> it is truly all of the above. we have worked with law enforcement agencies who have busted down doors and drag people through basements, literally. participated in fairly large scale arrests of multiple individuals that are very highly connected together, well organized. the east -- and they each have othersual specialized -- know how to watch the money and all of these things. they're just like physical, organized crime. then there are others that are definitely working on behalf of the government. there are pictures of it, recon photos, all of that kind of thing, going out to work. they go to that building and that is their job. to hack in the company and steal information on behalf of the government. i have seen photos of eastern instance,owns, for that were just an insane number of people who jive lamborghinis ad things like this year it lot if that is the spam, the fake pharmaceuticals, tax fraud, medicare fraud, it is staggering amounts of money that are at some point along the chain stolen and stored at a corporation. >> c-span campaign 2014 debate coverage continues monday night. the congressional district debate between the incumbent congressional candidate. they, the iowa senate debate. c-span campaign 2014 come more 100 days for the control of congress. >> the warren commission reportd its support -- into the assassination of john f. kennedy. on september 24, 1964, 60 years ago this month. just days before us, johnson called his friend and congress member russell of georgia. the president had two questions for russell. what did the commission concluded were the findings unanimous. now, an excerpt from that call. >> hello? >> yes, sir. >> well you are always leaving towns. you must not like it appear. >> you left. the country could get along a whole lot that are without me than it could you. >> i do not know. >> so i got out. we got through the day and you know what i did, i got on the plane and came home. i did not even have a toothbrush. i got a few little things here. and i even have my pills. pills to take care of me. what you get in such a rush? >> just fighting over those reports. let's well, you ought to take another hour and go on and get your votes. >> no. no. they're trying to prove the same bullet that hit kennedy was the one that hit -- went through him and went through his hand, his bone, into his leg, and everything else. a lot of stuff, we could not get all the evidence. i did redirect it. so i just, i don't know. i was the only fellow there who gets in and changed whatever. we have got a pretty good report difference does it make which bullet got him? >> it don't make much of a difference. the commission believes the same hitet that hit kennedy connally. i don't believe it. >> i don't either. >> i could not find it. i am not going through at that. so i finally made them said there is a difference in the conviction of that. carter believe that was not so. he did not miss completely with that third shot,. to their theory, he not only miss the automobile, he missed the straight. anyhow, that is a little thing. did he do it for any reason? >> he was a general misanthropic fellow. he had never been satisfied. he had a desire to get his name in history.
memorial. it's a distinct honor to be a part of your ceremonies as we commemorate the 69th anniversary of v.j. day. as citizens of a grateful nation, we salute those of the greatest generation who helped save the world from tyranny. we also offer a special salute to this generation, another great generation, a generation of men and women of our armed forces who are presently serving in the ongoing war on terrorism. their service is greatly appreciated. to all these warriors and veterans, past and present, we owe a great debt of gratitude and our lasting appreciation for their service to our country. again, i want to thank you all for being here today and special thanks to our veterans for your service and sacrifices for our nation. ladies and gentlemen, i'm pleased to introduce the official party now for today's v.j. commemoration, our keynote speaker for today's event, mr. george prescot bush. >> it's a long walk, mr. bush. the chairman of the board for friends of the national world war ii memorial, general mckickliter. [applause] >> from the military district of washington, colonel chaplin gary r. shnedeski. >> it's a warm day, we'll try to make this brief but i think you'll find it impressive. ladies and gentlemen, please rise for the presentation of the colors and the playing of the national anthem and invocation. ♪ [the star spangled banner plays] >> please be seated. i also want to introduce to you to robert voguele, superintendent of the national mall and miller parks national park service and here's the chaplin to give the invocation. >> let us pray. >> oh mighty god, today we gather in remembrance and in thanksgiving. remembrance of a great and costly victory over a tyranny that threatened not only america but the whole world. and we gather in thanksgiving for the men and women who served both home and on distant pacific waters and shores and lands, who sacrificed so much to achieve that victory. lord, we give you thanks, grateful that you inspired and strengthened so many countrymen and unselfish service. many, even to the cost of their own lives, who we commemorate at this memorial. their courage and valor ensured the freedoms we enjoy today and continue to provide an inspiration and an example to those of us who strive to add our own contributions to the security, prosperity, and peace of our beloved country. bless our commemoration here and all its participants. may this observance render true honor to those countless numbers who made it possible and foster true devotion to you, to our country, and to the define and democratic values of freedom, of justice, and of peace we hold so dear. amen. >> thank you, sir. i am so pleased to be with you here today, especially this day. v.j. day, as you know, is a special day of this country and a day we commemorate the end of world war ii and a day we celebrate the unity and spirit of the american people who together helped to end the war. and it is a day when we can celebrate the same unity and spirit that has allowed us to turn our former enemies into allies and friends. as you heard mentioned, on the 50th anniversary of the attack of pearl harbor, i produced a documentary in hawaii to commemorate that event. one member i interviewed was a salty sea dog named john fin. as a navy petty officer on december 7, 1941, john finn grabbed a 50 caliber machine gun and mounted it on an instruction stand. despite being wounded 21 times, chief finn fired on japanese aircraft from that exposed position for two solid hours. he was one of 15 men awarded medals of honor for their heroic actions that day. and when i asked john finn for an interview, he said ok but none of that hero stuff. he did not use the word "stuff" either. they had him in the parade and he wouldn't stay in line because he kept running out of line to shake hands with people and say hello to people. i fell in love with the guy. at the end of the day, i said, hey, chief, will you adopt me? he said, i don't have room for you, he had five foster kids at home. and he did. all native american kids. john finn died may 27, 2010, at the age of 100. a member of the greatest generation. many thanks to superintendent voguele and the national park service, the caretakers of this memorial for their exemplary efforts to maintain this memorial and to bring honor to the greatest generation. we're pleased to partner with the national park service in an effort to preserve the legacy of this memorial and to co-host these special events with them. now representing the national park service, mr. robert vogle, superintendent of the national mall and memorial parks and national park service. mr. vogle. >> thank you. and good morning. on behalf of the national park service, it is my great honor to welcome you to your world war ii memorial and to the national mall and memorial parks. for over 10 years, this memorial has stood on the national mall to commemorate in bronze and granite the undying gratitude of a nation. to those veterans of world war ii who are here with us today and to all those who have so valiantly served their nation since, we thank you and offer our solemn promise that your sacrifices shall never be forgotten. on this special victory over japan day, we're honored to have with us businessman, philanthropist, civic leader, and veteran, mr. george prescot bush as our keynote speaker. we welcome you to the world war ii memorial. i would also like to recognize a couple other people here. we have general kelly who is the former chairman of the american battle memorial commission and someone who was a key leader in the creation of this wonderful memorial. and he didn't just stop in, he still serves as a key leader in the friends of the world war ii memorial. i would also like to recognize the chairman of the friends of the national world war ii memorial, mckickliter. the general has served our nation for more than 50 years, first as an army officer and after his retirement in positions at the departments of state, defense, and veterans administration. the friends of the national world war ii memorial are trusted partners in our shared mission to ensure that the legacy and sacrifices of the world war ii generation are never forgotten. and i would also like to take a special opportunity today to recognize the wonderful men and women who are here today and are here every day wearing the yellow hats and the yellow shirts. i would ask you to take a moment and to thank them for their service as volunteers here at the world war ii memorial. [applause] >> we truly could not do it without you. 69 years ago today, the battle ship u.s.s. missouri sat in tokyo harbor, an iron witness to a quiet end to the most destructive conflict in human history. supreme commander of the allied forces, general douglas mcarthur summed up the occasion saying today the guns are silent. a great tragedy has ended. a great victory has been won. the skies no longer rain death. the seas bear only commergs. men everywhere walk upright in the sunlight. the entire world is quietly at peace. and the peace that followed this greatest generation did not rest, going on to build the highway system and defend the world against communism and step foot on the moon. as the superintendent of the national mall and memorial parks and as the very proud son of a world war ii veteran, i am very honored every day to be entrusted with the care and protection of this memorial. thank you very much. [applause] >> thank you, mr. vogle. general p.x. kelly, former commandant of the marine corps was instructor of the basic school when i was down the road in quantico, an undistinguished member of golf company which he refers to as the infamous golf company. i don't think that's a compliment. also here with us today to represent the ceremony, the ceremony's co-host, friends of the national world war ii memorial, is lieutenant general mckickliter. ladies and gentlemen, general mckickliter. >> good morning and on behalf of friends of the national world war ii meryl board, let me extend my welcome that you've come to commemorate the 69th anniversary of the allied victory of world war ii as a war came to an end in the pacific. as you heard, 69 years ago today, the japanese formally surrendered aboard the battleship u.s.s. missouri in tokyo bay and this brought to an end, finally, world war ii. mr. peterson, thank you so much for being our master of ceremonies. you've done this before. i can't add to all the great things that was said about you when you were introduced, but i would add that you're a american veteran and throughout your career, you've taken a special interest in taking care of those men and women who are serving our country, and you've also done a great deal for our veterans. and sir, thank you for being here. admiral luther, i know you're a very bitsy -- busy man on the navy staff, and it's great to have you here, sir. and george p. bush, we look forward to hearing your remarks, especially about your grandfather's service in world war ii. today marks the 70th anniversary of presidents bush 's miraculous rescue when he was shot down in the pacific. if that rescue had not occurred, there would be a lot of bushes that would be out of our history. and we also know that among the many things that you've done in your life, you're currently serving in the reserve as a naval officer, and you've already had one tour of duty in afghanistan. it's always an honor to welcome a special friend, general p.x. kelly who has been a friend for so many years and one of my heroes i admire, former commandant of the marine torp, also the former chairman of the board of the american battle monuments commission who you heard say did an awful lot to make this your monument a reality. and he said to me before coming in, the highlight of his career was the day that he stood up here on this platform and said to president bush 43, mr. president, it's my high honor to present this memorial to the american people. let's give general kelly a round of applause. [applause] >> there's so many other distinguished guests here today. ladies and gentlemen, we gather at this magnificent national world war ii memorial to remember those who served in world war ii and their families. and to commemorate the end to the most destructive war in history. an estimated 60 million people lost their lives in that war. mostly were women and children and the elderly who got overrun by the war. millions were murdered in slave labor camps, in concentration camps and death camps just because of their ethnic background, religious beliefs, and political affiliations. today we also remember those 16 million americans who took -- who walked away from civilian life and put a uniform on to defend this nation. we also remember the 400,000 who gave all their tomorrows. and that's a high price to pay when you're 18 or 19 years old. but they gave all their tomorrows so we can live in this strong, free and beautiful america that we're proud to call home, and those 400,000 are represented behind me on the gold stars on the wall of freedom. they fought that war against great odds and the outcome was certainly not certain. but the world war ii generation fought and won that war, and not only saved this nation, but with our allies, they literally saved the world. many of the friends on the board of directors have been involved in this memorial from the inception to the dedication , and they continue to work to support this wonderful memorial. we're privileged to work to ensure the legacy, the lessons learned from that war, and the unity of this nation which never has been greater and the sacrifice of all those who honored -- we honor today are never forgotten. to accomplish this mission, we work closely and proudly with the department of defense, with the milwaukee district of washington, and the national park service to share this sacred memorial with all of our world war ii veterans and their families. and all americans and from people all over the world. a special thanks to mr. robert vogle and that great national parks service team who in a very superb manner take care of this magnificent memorial. and is truly a sacred place to come to remember, to reflect, and to commemorate the defining moments of that war, as we're doing today as we honor those who serve. with the world war 2, would you stand or raise your hand so we can say thank you for this great nation you gave us, the land of the free and the home of the brave. would you raise your hand or please stand? [applause] >> we can never repay you for the great sacrifice and service that you provided in such a time of peril. i thank all of you for coming this morning to help us honor our world war ii veterans and their families. god bless all of our veterans and all of their families, and especially, lord, please bless the men and women who are serving today and coming off the battlefields in iraq and satisfying. what -- and afghanistan. what a magnificent job they are and have been doing. god bless america. thank you very much. >> thank you very much. and thank you, too, world war ii veterans. we're very appreciative with what all the friends of the world war ii memorial have done and continue to do to thank and honor our world war ii veterans and their families. i've reached an age where some of the people i worked with asked me if i fought in world war ii. my answer is, well, right after the japanese attack on pearl harbor, i tried to enlist but was only 3 years old, my mother wouldn't sign for me. you know, it's one of those regrets you carry with you your whole life. we're privileged to have with us today the navy ceremonial band who now will perform a patriotic salute to our veterans. ♪ ♪ ♪ [applause] >> thank you very much. now, it's my privilege to introduce our keynote speaker, mr. george prescot bush. mr. bush is a part of the next generation of texas leaders. he's a successful businessman, philanthropist, civic leader, and veteran dedicated to advancing conservative values. while many of us know him as the grandson of president george h.w. bush, the son of former governor jeb bush and the nephew of president george w. bush is known to his friends, business partners and colleagues as a leader with broad convictions, broad experience in many areas, and fresh perspectives. in 2006, mr. bush joined the u.s. naval reserve through the prestigious direct commission officer program. in 2010 he began an eight-month tour of duty in afghanistan in support of operation enduring freedom out of the special operations command. among other service decorations, he was awarded the joint service accommodation medal for his meritorious service. ladies and gentlemen, it's now my pressure to welcome george prescot bush to the podium. mr. bush? >> appreciate it. [applause] >> good morning, everybody. thank you for having me. it is truly an honor to join you this morning at this very special venue. i want to acknowledge all of our distinguished guests, including general kelly, all of our distinguished visitors that come from all parts of our great country to join us on this amazing anniversary of v.j. day. it is truly an honor to have been invited to represent my family to join us on this morning here in d.c. 69 years ago, the guns fell silent in the pacific. and when the smoke had cleared, a new world truly had emerged. against huge odds and against an enemy that refused to surrender, america emerged victorious in world war ii. it was important that america won the war but it was just as important that america won the peace. the heroes of the greatest generation didn't just defeat japan, they rebuilt japan. they didn't just fight against tyranny, they fought for freedom. and today that fight goes around the world as american troops remain the last and yes, the best hope for preserving freedom. of course, none of us would be here today if america hadn't won in the pacific theater. but it was due to the countless american men and women who wore the uniform and bore the burden of fighting in the greatest war. i say this because i have an important mission this morning. i came here bearing a clear message that i want each and every one of you to hear loudly and clearly. it is a message from my generation to yours. and that is thank you. thank you for all that you have done to preserve the great freedoms that we as americans sometimes take for granted. thank you for putting time on hold, both on the home front and certainly on the front lines to preserve the many freedoms that we enjoy today. and thank you for pressing on in the tremendous difficulties ahead of us and pressing against a rising tide of tyranny. today our nation once again faces grave threats from the forces of evil. once again we have been called into the breach to answer that call that americans have always heard, and that's to do the hard work of freedom. standing before this, the greatest generation, let me assure you that my generation will not fail you. we will not drop the baton, the ageless tradition of duty, honor, and country that you painstakingly pass forward. your example, your selflessness, your undying love of country that led you to the valley of war and destruction to the greener pastures of peace and prosperity. it will remain an inspiration. indeed, i hope you will forgive a very proud grandson this morning in noting that the young men and women serving on the u.s.s. george h.w. bush is today in an area of hostilities and is saving the lives of innocent families in that area of the world. and that her crew continue to draw upon the inspiration of her ship's namesake on a daily basis. if he were here today, he'd say this is not about him, this is about you and all that you have done to make this country great. may god bless each and every one of them. may god bless all who serve and wear the uniform. may god bless each and every one of you and your families on this special anniversary in this very special place. thank you. [applause] >> ladies and gentlemen, we will now take part for the official breathe laying ceremony. please be seated as our official party and world war ii veterans get in position. we also hear from the united states navy ceremonial band. ♪ ♪ ♪ >> ladies and gentlemen, we will now begin the official wreath presentation ceremony. >> representing the united states of america is mr. george prescot bush. representing the national park service and world war ii veteran accompanying mr. vogle is one of the original members of the united states army women's corps. the w.a.x. when it was first formed. world war ii veteran and 106 years young, lieutenant colonel mcgrath. >> representing friends of the national world war ii memorial is lieutenant general mick kickliter and mr. avon r. blevins. mr. blevins is a world war ii navy construction mechanic chief, retired. he served aboard the u.s.s. o'brien, dd 725 in the atlantic and pacific theaters from normandy to tokyo. >> representing the united states army, the colonel chaplin gary r. tenuski and world war ii children clarence kai faulkner. mr. faulkner was a staff sergeant, company k, acting platoon sergeant, 10th mountain division 86 regiment from march 12, 1943 to december 9, 1945. >> mr. faulkner received many awards including the italian medal, the soldier's medal, he saved 20 soldiers by throwing a live grenade had fallen out of someone's backpack prior to going on patrol. ladies and gentlemen, mr. kai faulkner. >> representing the united states marine corps, jack klemp, united states marine corps retired and now serves as president and c.e.o. of the national association of uniform services, former com aun daunt of the united states marine corps. p.x. kelly. accompanying p.x. kelly and general klemp is mr. russell jenkins. mr. russell jenkins, a world war 2 vet and was 17 years old when he joined the navy during world war ii. he served at sea in the atlantic as well as on land and as a medic with the third wave of forces that hit omaha beach on d-day. >> representing the united states navy is rear admiral navy brian e. luther, director of operations and plans, chief of naval operations, rear admiral luther was also the first commander of the u.s.s. george bush ship that now is in the mediterranean. accompanying admiral luther is mr. walter l. wemtz. he enlisted in the navy in september of 1939 at norfolk, virginia. he was a torpedo man throughout the war. he received numerous medals and was married to the late mrs. wentz for 65 years. he had four children, all of which are here with him today, judy, luis, sheila and congressional. -- and donald. ladies and gentlemen, mr. walter l. wentz. >> representing the united states air force is colonel edge shock, united states air force retired and vice president u.s.o. he is accompanied by a world war ii veteran as a tuskegee airman. >> representing the united states coast guard is mr. gordon peterson, former marine officer, served during the vietnam era. >> representing the united states merchant marines is the associate administrator for strategic sea lift, mr. kevin m. tarkoski. >> ladies and gentlemen, please rise for the playing of "taps." ["taps" plays] >> ladies and gentlemen, please be seated. and now, ladies and gentlemen, it's that time of the service where we honor all our branches of service with the playing of their songs. of the armed forces medley, if you hear your song and served in the branch of service and are a veteran or presently serving, please stand when you hear your song being played to be recognized. the united states navy ceremonial band. >> united states army. ♪ >> united states air force. ♪ >> united states marine corps. ♪ >> united states coast guard. ♪ >> united states navy ♪ >> let's hear it for the united states navy ceremonial band. ladies and gentlemen, this concludes our ceremony for today. you're welcome to go over to the freedom wall and meet and greet the veterans and congratulate them and thank you for coming and have a wonderful day and god bless america. >> you're watching american history tv, all weekend, every weekend on c-span 3. [captioning performed by the national captioning institute] [captioning copyright national cable satellite corp.2014] >> monday night, wade baker on the recent data breach at home depot, home depot, and jpmorgan chase every >> it's truly all of the above. we have worked with law enforcement agencies who have busted down doors and drive people out of their basements, literally. we have also participated in fairly large-scale arrests of multiple individuals that are very highly connected together, very well organized. they have individual specialities and roles. some write malicious software the others know how to wash the money and they are just like organize crime. then there are others that definitely are working on behalf of the government. they have an office, there is pictures of it, recon photos and all of that kind of thing. that's to that building, their job, to hack into companies and still information on behalf of the government. i have seen some photos on behalf of eastern european towns that there are just an insane number of people that rive lamborghini's. fake of that is the pharmaceuticals, the financial fraud,
the richard nixon and the national security council. they discussed the president poshard policies toward egypt and israel during the yom kippur war. they also encourage diplomatic relations with china during the cold war. by theent was cohosted national archives and the richard nixon foundation is about 90 minutes. to talk, this is going to be the first in a several-part series on how it the nixon administration change the world. kissinger,y, henry --henry kissinger poshard kissinger's national security council. the first middle east peace agreement in probably 2000 years. this amazingt in series of successes is how president nixon and his very able foreign-policy adviser henry kissinger transformed the national security decision-making structure. on the very first day of the administration, these innovations created the groundwork for all of the successes they were able to achieve in the next and poshard presidency.- nixon and you might say, that is more about good housekeeping is that a brilliant policymaking. the key realized that to a successful foreign-policy was dedication. how they wanted to structure the national security council staff. nixon learned firsthand about a good counsel when he was eisenhower poshard vice president. --enhower poshard security eisenhower's security council was more like a military-based one. this allowed eisenhower to deal with the day-to-day crisis, as well as to devote to more strategic planning. more so, in his memoirs, richard nixon complained that a lot of eisenhower's time was wasted. personal preference was to do things on paper, he said he to get briefings through memoranda rather than on -- them through meetings. the other shortcomings of the eisenhower system was because it was the military. so when decisions were made on the lower level, and the boss got these decisions, it was a yes or no, or choosing from a, b, or c. nixon saw first hand of the weakness of their foreign policy decision-making processes. he thought that kennedy and johnson were as -- were also more of an ad hoc crisis decision-making process. at the end of the johnson administration, decisions were made by a few people on a regular tuesday luncheon, because johnson it that point, was afraid of leaks. kissinger and nixon were formed the national security structure. people talk about the national security council, and it is important to make it a station, that the national security council is something that is mandated by law by the national security act of 1947. there are three members, the president, the vice president, and the secretary of state. national security council staff, which is what more people refer to, is in fact the staffers who prepare the documents for that top level group. in nixon's book, he said that eisenhower made the selection because he wanted dulles to be the chief foreign-policy administrator. but nixon wanted firm policy directive from the white house. described the johnson administration process that i talked about as lacking focus. there was not a lot of preparation in the staff were, and decisions were made, more or less, on-the-fly. the administration became hostage and prisoners to the events of the day, and were not able to formulate how they were strategically able to deal with things. nixon thank you figure did not do it all alone, despite what their memoirs might have said. -- nixon and kissinger did not do it alone, despite what their memoirs might have said. he is a national recognized scholar at stanford university .hen nixon tapped him once nixon became president, richard allen came the deputy director of the national security council. , sitting next to him, joined the campaign staff in 1968. laymen became the national security council staff head of veryrs, and often had a testy relationship between the white house and congress, particularly during the vietnam war. john lehman personally gave henry kissinger headaches for -- gossip colin column whispers about kissing her be the most eligible bachelor. kissinger being the most eligible bachelor. now the tillman was they -- now in thentleman was demonstration and joined the staff at the very beginning. he probably became henry kissinger's closest associate throughout the ministration. they worked throughout the vietnam peace negotiations through other foreign-policy issues, and particularly, particularly,na, it was created in that office. they were talking about the opening to china. winston helped to plan and was part of the secret trip -- kissinger cosh -- kissinger's secret trip. winston accompanied him on every one of his secret trips, he was later made the ambassador to china, i was also kissinger's right-hand man. he was also a close personal confidant. and bud was a vietnam veteran in the marine corps. staff in the kissinger 1971. mcfarlaneinston, but soon expandedne his roles. he was able to do many things. to talkt, i would like to these gentlemen about their ,ecollections and remembrances and a good point in the bad points, about how to change the world. i would like to start with you dick.- you, nixon had given a lot of thought to these issues. the prompted him to wanted to change -- to want to change the nsc system? >> he was informed as to how he was structure things as president. that heonality was such insisted on planning. hours andours and hours reading, mostly reading, some writing, and lots of travel , before he became president. he had the opportunity to see american foreign-policy in disarray. that all of the elements of national power should be brought together under the rubric of national security. it was not a particular policy toward a conglomerate of states. wasas military power, it economic power, it is our position in the world, it is even down to, and including, information and how we presented ourselves. a fairly efficient job, although we were highly criticized. nixon was highly critical of and wanted to inform it. comprehensivehe national security strategy, harnessing all of the components. he spentto do that, hours and hours and hours of the time that i knew him, and that was a long time, and that as president, and in the transition. and us withssinger doing just what he wanted to do. organizing and bringing decision-making back into the white house where properly belong. nixon got elected in november of 1968, and took office in january of 1969. in that. of time, that is when you crafted this whole new system. -- in that. of time, that is when you crafted this whole new system. yes. >> how is a codified? -- werepieces of paper there pieces of paper? it included the state department, the have -- the and i cash the cia, what it other departments think about this? >> i don't think people were particularly fond of this at the beginning. nixon'sresident bygraphies was so battered the washington establishment during his years in the congress he wassenator because really viewed as an outsider, and particularly going after alger hiss was thought to be an unforgivable sin. so, he was not completely trusting of the bureaucracy. ,o he had a very small group and winston was one of the withrs, along with dick, the lead up to it. they put together the framework. and --n, having more having a more experienced counsel to provide the actual wasework, the agency completely ached. --"baked." >> now we have a distinction between nssms m -- , what was the difference? and all of you can chime in by the way. the national security decision memoranda, number two, was the one that created a different structure that would change the way people were in charge. was thethat complication of everything he wanted. as a result of the discussion of the transition at his own -- that ishat is his exactly what he had written down and what he had approved. in the memorandum, it was approved, you can see it on the memorandum, it was approved without any other commentary on the side. no penciled notes on the outside, and no modifications. earlierecause he had drafts presented to him before he got the final draft. >> a clean copy and a final analysis. how is this a much different than they had been before? in 1958,t to a hotel and we met and nixon had wanted to get his views on how to get the system to the other -- system together. ck and others also contributed. the key thing about this new system was that who chairs the committee. the person who chairs the committee sets the agenda and --s the show, and i actually and actually make sure what is put into effect. there was six basic committees. one for general foreign-policy --blems, one for crisis is crises that would arise, one that talked about foreign-policy issues, a verification panel that looked arms control, and to cu intelligence committees -- intelligence committees. all of these richard by henry kissinger. chaired byhese were henry kissinger. all of these agencies had a chance to get their views on these, and he wanted another option. differentinely wanted policy recommendations of which agency supported it, and the pros and the cons, the expenses, and the risks. he used to joke that we would the firstoptions, and would be unconditional surrender, the second would be nuclear war, and the third would be continued present policy. these were serious options. the other thing that you wanted to make sure was it was a strategy and that you are not just reacting to crisis. the system the dominated foreign-policy in terms of the white house. we had several factors. secondly, it was a distrust of others. bringing a deleted trust to were also imaginative and innovative. thirdly, he had the guts to appoint henry kissinger and not nelson rockefeller. he was a jewish immigrant from harvard. you had a terrific staff, present company excluded of course, and they all work harder than the state department. then you had issues that we will get into, that let themselves to a close-knit operation and the secretive operation. the three key issues were in vietnam, china, and russia. of the factors that led to the domination by the white house. >> i wanted to focus on us. because it was different than before. who chaired this? there was always the in thegency discussions eisenhower and kennedy and the johnson administration. but who was the chair? >> i don't want to but in here, but even under the nixon era, you had the under secretary, who was essentially a person who would look at issues sometimes before they got to the nsc. administrations, the key committees were generally chaired by the secretary of state or his deputy, as opposed to the nsc. bud, you are a military guy. talk to us about your perspective from the military. >> this was very welcome to the wereary, these plans always looking over the horizon and look at what could go wrong, what might happen in the middle east, soviet union, or russia now. so the system the resident nixon put in place would put a premium on planning. east-west we approach , or soviet relations? what are the economic military relations and how we can bring together all of the u.s. resources to focus on their vulnerabilities, and by the way, what is the cost of doing option one, option two, and option three? because financially, there are risk, and politically there are allies, and so forth. so the military welcome to the system. however,r to state, that the cabinet officers are strong-willed people normally, and you would really have to have eight halogen staff. staff.lented when you brought together the exports -- experts from the cia and so forth around the table, they had credentials also. it was only by death of the excellence of people like bill simon, and bill other practicing diplomats of furred -- who for decades already were trusted, when they went to these interdepartmental meetings, they brought information and they spoke with authority. yes they were backed by the white house am a but they were intellectually up to the job. patsiese not there as listening to ideas that might ,ave been a little bit fringe or whatnot. so it was not the president who was just as keenly well-informed, he was a scholar himself, and it was not just dr. kissinger, but it was also subordinates who were really up to the task of the great work -- grit work. they brought to the president options that made a lot of sense. he would pick one, and they were the people who cracked the whip after he made a decision about our policy towards the soviet union. if any cabinet agency began to go off the reservation and very a little bit, they would get a someonem sonnenfeld or else. in short, it was a disciplined system. it was a system that studied matters exhaustively and came to decisions, and publish them. it is almost unique in american history's that it -- history that in those years, every american could go to a bookstore and get a copy of the national security policy of the united states. every year. it covered every region. trade, andntrol, and so forth. not a furtive," a secret operation, except when needed -- ld, secretlose-ho operation, except when needed. it was open. and its successes bear that out. >> no system is perfect. can do for and follow -- do foreign-policy. but get systems can succeed. perfect,st, nothing is especially if that is what the president wants, above all. wantedon and kissinger something that was formal and that everyone was involved, and usually there was only one .ecommendation to the president the compromises were hashed out before they even got to the president parsed s -- president's desk. difference leaned heavily on dulles, where is nixon lead hat -- heavily on his national security advisor. they would get together every tuesday for lunch because they were worried about leaks and they wanted to look at fast-moving decisions. that had the distance -- that but you did speed, not always have carefully the lunch.endas for it had different interpretations of decisions that were made during lunch, and even different implementation. >> i would add one postscript here. and a second later i will come back to bud. president nixon had the good recognize theand legislative arm in all of this, and to pick the premier fellow in all of washington and that was bryce harlow. he had originally written, among other things, that part of farewell speech, where he warned of the military-industrial complex. was a lobbyist, heaven for and that was when matt macd -- michael roy -- kleroy had been the secretary of defense. 19 tuesday 9 -- beginning in 1969, 1968 actually, there was congressional understanding and congressional funding and of course, congressional approval of policies. i think the nixon system engendered respect on the part of the legislature. , aaw that he had a plan program, he had things in hand, and he did not waste any time implementing those. that kind of perspective build support, and the legislative support, for the funding of programs that is necessary. back and say the point that winston made, where it was the best. they might not have made national figures, but they were the best in their fields. john, jump in to comment. is important to understand where the national security council came from. it did not happen and come into it wasoom in 1947, but one of the most bitter and contentious periods that makes today's partisanship look like kindergarten. 8047, andrs of 1946, 1948, there was bitter policy. you have to remember that when franklin roosevelt took office for the first year, and his first term, his white house staff was five people. his was true cabinet government. he wanted to hear directly from each of the service chiefs, from the secretary of the military department, and so forth. there was no such thing as a national security staff. war went ons the -- the chiefs became more running back and forth every day during the war -- that increased somewhat, but there never really was a national security council. >> they were not running back to the pentagon, the pentagon did not exist at that point. war department, and by the end of the war, it was in that five sided building, and there was the navy department down by the mall, and that is another story about how they got kicked out of their. cabinet werethe the officers and the president's advisors. they met daily during the war. then truman came in. burnedreally kind of hadt the way that roosevelt such a powerful persona and had terms, andof four was running policy completely. he wasn't included a burned him that way. >> no, he was not included. in his memoirs and gray by re-freeze, he really, really disliked the navy and the navy department. --sevelt always referred when he was talking about this navy -- he always said "we" and "us," and when he talked about the army, he always said, "them guys.""those he thought that they had much more power than they should. >> you have to be very careful. >> roosevelt was an assistant secretary of the navy. under josephus daniels. was ant that there attempt in the truman white house to seize back control from both the state department and especially the two military department, there was a huge battle over the consolidation and the creation of the sense -- the creation of the department of defense. secretary of the navy, really wrote a lot of the 1947 act. of creating a national security council was, indeed, his -- he wrote it with his friends on the hill. the wayo get control of that truman was running policy, trying to consolidate things, particularly clark clifford and cabinet,ers, and the particularly the new defense department, and the state department, were frozen out of the policy. forrsc was thought up by estal, who was the first secretary of defense, and dean were tryingnd they to get back in control. the way it was originally organized, it was staffed by serving military officers and foreign service officers. there was no budget for a national security council staff. truman never used it. he resented it. he just was furious about the whole establishment of it. so he never used it. eisenhower turned it into a military staff. and then after that, it reflected how interested a president was in foreign-policy and national security. lbj was much more interested in civil rights and domestic affairs, so vietnam became the total, but having a concept and a vision as to how the rest of the world should be, he just was not interested. the nsc reverted to a very ad hoc tuesday lunch kind of ad hoc theing, so sometimes cabinet officers had to weigh on he was not interested in, and they never knew what was going on. change, and then when president nixon came in, huron is this guy who -- here was this guy who, critics of watergate say, was not interested in domestic and social policy, he was really interested in national security he foundnd kissinger his alter ego. , whatevercture process that was used to build it and put in place, was designed to bring all of that back in and and orderly and structured fashion. orderly and structured fashion. none of us want to denigrate the other agencies. people, very many abled took care of a lot of issues. also, they had to implement what was decided by the nsc. all of us would not deny that the white house dominated a lot of secrecy, as we will get into ater, but they still provided lot of information that was needed by the president. littlee is just one component, the other point that i would like to make, is that all that we find in the memorandum that was submitted by whatresident, including was the united states information agency in the process. surprise, i was walking to my first national security council meeting, early january or later january, across the street from the eob. shakespeare, i said frank i will see you at the nsc meeting. he said, what nsc meeting? his's when i realize that agency was not in the meeting. they had simply been dismissed. nixon himself did not mind that the exclusion had occurred. henry did not trust them. >> you guys talk about, and -- othersothers will have written about, the national security staff, and yet as somebody has pointed out, you guys were really young. you were very young. why do you just talk through how you found your way. let's start with bud. i was a parade -- beret officer at the time. my office was next door to henry kissinger. i saw the opportunity to be interviewed for his military adviser position. then over time, i began to focus handlingg on intelligence dimensions of the relationship with china. sharing of sensitive intelligence information that the chinese would tell you was not in the american cards that were being played against the soviet union. it was trying to gain the chinese confidence. >> it was immensely valuable to both countries. briefings onodic soviet military deployment, what was their strength, their readiness, what about able deployments, what about soviet aid programs to india, but in chineseroviding intelligence that they could count on that was immensely valuable. time, were in moscow the and suddenly this was going on, to keepnly enabled you 45 divisions on the chinese border, now that the americans were allied in supportive, but we do not5 divisions, have to worry about them in europe treated or at least not as much. -- europe. or at least not as much written -- as much. nixon's policy was adopted part and parcel by the reagan administration in 1982. we are talking about the nixon administration, we were very very strong-willed cabinet there were very, cabinetong-willed officers that disagreed with these policies in the reagan administration. but nixon wanted these disagreements to be aired in the meetings, and decisions made in neck they are so, but, in order to do that, you had to have a strong white house staff they could bring an honest , analyze the merits of each, and the nixon reallyith dr. kissinger established a process. it would get the best from the bureaucracy, including the disagreements, options, make decisions, and then oversee the implementation of policy that brought such excess in the china opening and the middle east diplomacy, and the arms control agreement, and so forth. and similarly, later in the reagan years, successful thecies that accelerated collapse of marxism in the world, and ended the cold war, the reduction of nuclear weapons for the first time in history, and all it involve enough a model that was very similar to the nixon years. >> go ahead. by the way, everybody feel that you can -- >> we don't comment on these everyday. patterns of what the president wants to delegate, all presidents have to make the most difficult decisions. matterly does not whether we are focusing on domestic or international policy. our delegating the information to kissinger, and he had nixon. these systems are perfect. they all had their advantages and disadvantages. >> i think there is one dimension where, had we all been able to go back to the creation, we might have asked for more help in the drafting. congress is hardly mentioned in any of these documents. meetings and the agendas and the options were really the finest put together, ever up to that point, it was a 500 pound gorilla in the room that was never considered. >> that was your job, right? yes, and at one point there singleeeting, and the aggression a leader -- the congressional leader said, "god nixon, you got a get congressional input." thisthink somebody pointed out, but the economic to mentions of foreign policy requires attention. in all fairness, economic power is absolutely crucial. in those days, it was less important. what is more important than being in the system. that, theect to shortcoming became so apparent 1971, that nixon created the council on national economic policy, i know because i was shanghaied to come back to help peter peterson. was to build a council on for the policy, secretaries on commerce, labor, and agriculture, and all of those were international issues that begin to burn my 1971. dumping japanese television variouspropriation of american properties abroad such there,hile, and worries so that dimension really took off because of nixon. when we speak of president nixon as an architectural president, which is the overarching theme of our discussion today, that bycussion was stimulated pressure from congress and pressure from the secretary of the treasury and who was a very strong voice and who is often thought to be nixon's successor. everybodyson that seems to who is not on the stage is the assistant to the president. he was part of the inner circle. wave yourur hand -- hand, tom. [laughter] >> crisis. we have not dealt with crisis. set up aand kissinger system where every agency would have a role that would --tribute to the and s s m nssm. byse were given to next and -- these were given to nixon by kissinger and it would reflect -- >> always an audit number. >> always an odd number. kissinger would also recommend the pros and cons and say however, i recommend option b. votes suddenly getting a that was superior in some ways to the agency. winston, you made a point in your writing that the system was not only unique to nixon and to needed at what it was the time. it centralized the need of suited itself to the power in the white house because of the country and the issues we were dealing with. were dealing with is intellectually stimulating system. was putting together these briefing books. before you strategy got the specific choices, and that was true of almost every issue. the you are referring to is three most important issues when nixon face when he came into the office. china, that the top of the soviet union, and the ending of the vietnam war -- the détente with the soviet union, and the ending of the vietnam war. there was an economic component, i might add. it was urgent. you did not have to worry about public policies, so all three of these issues lend themselves to delicate negotiations out of the public spotlight, so there is a lot of sensitivities with these three issues. therefore, it lent itself to the nixon-kissinger approach. we want to get into the secrecy issue at one point. from the outset of the ministration, it lent itself to white house control and secrecy. pluses and minuses. it was part of the reason that they went about diplomacy in this way. openingrespect to the of china, it is also important to recognize that nixon wrote an for thein october october 1967 issue of foreign affairs. he wrote it almost entirely by himself, along with ray price, pat buchanan, and richard whelan , and i participated in this as article really telegraphed the opening to china. nobody paid attention to it. it is quite cryptic. a afteralled "asi vietnam," and nixon calls for a series of summit meetings and the opening of asia. but nobody picked it up and nobody -- and he did not elaborate on it. people thought that it was nixon referring to his secret plan for vietnam. but he never had a secret plan for vietnam. placenitiative was in during -- place. now, i participated and was walking out with henry, and it don't know -- and i don't know if you are walking out of this saidng as well, and he find a way to get in touch with china. out ofs the last remark the door from the oval office walking down the hall. and henry muttered, "is he crazy?" well, he himself became the vehicle to get in touch with china. >> it was beyond that. i fit for your first, 1969, 1 1, 1969, onebruary week after the inauguration, henry agreed with the concept as well, by the way, but he certainly agree that the opening to china with helpless with the russians and do a lot of other things, that there is no question that this was one of nixon's basic impulses from the beginning within one week of his inauguration. by the way, he did not have a secret plan for vietnam. but he wanted to use the russians to squeeze hanoi. he wanted to construct the best possible version of events. >> you both talk about how kissinger got control of the bureaucracy. tell us how to nixon and kissinger would let the world know that the action was in the west wing of the white house and not in any other agency. >> in one of the referendums, there was a reference to an annual statement. those annual statements became very important. you could go to the government printing office and get a copy of the american principles and for theand it was bound year and beyond. it stated the country's goals for the next year. we would beat out these issues in san clemente every year. the president was only interested in vietnam. for example, in china, those reports gave a lot of indication of what direction we were going to take with china. people sort of overlooked it. -- i thinkthink it it is worth talking about for a little bit longer. this is the first time the administration had said publicly, and not in a boilerplate bureaucratized language, this is where we want to go. and issinger and nixon know you are part of it winston, fourould take for guys -- guys and go to san clemente and create white papers for the ministration. thise last introduction to , although it did not get attention from the press and from the domestic audience that it should have, the foreign audience understood. if you try to draft a document he alwaysger, rejected the first draft. it was made inherently worthless. i was doing a section on indochina, and it was about 30 pages, this first draft. i did not even read it because i knew he would reject it. put in a sentence that was grammatically correct, but consisted of titles of all of kissinger's books. he caught it. i wanted to chime in there. far, we have- thus talked about the planning and the thoroughness of american policy for every part of the world. that planning was really part of an important part of the nixon administration. there are things that happened it don't anticipate. overseas that involve american interest, so what you do when you have a crisis? that was equally as impressive as the long-term planning, and the way the president nixon organize his team. probably the most salient example was during the presidency, and the yom kippur war of october of 1973. distance -- had been confirmed as secretary of state. i mention this primarily, because it didn't end well. you can read about that. you can see a forum like this one the focuses entirely on the middle east war. i mention of foreign entirely different reason. --was because of the resume the resilience and the strength of president nixon who remembered the circumstances. here was an american ally, israel, attacked from two sides, syria and egypt, and losing. and it looked like for about a week's time, israel was going to suffer a pretty serious defeat. here,ent nixon, however, seeing the importance of avoiding that catastrophe, was himself besieged by the watergate problem. a challenge that have lasted over a year now. being attacked by members of congress and others and the press. and an ally was about to go under. it required personal composure and vision of where he wanted and -- end, and he got the aid of dr. kissinger and some subordinates and the department of defense. mind, the pressures of watergate, and his vice president was about to resign. union had its own interest to get back into the middle east, and it was looking for ways to undermine american it evento the point of alerting seven airborne divisions to go back to egypt and to tip the balance in favor of egypt. you had threats by the arab countries to impose an oil broughtwhich could have down not only our economy but the global economy, so this is not your average afternoon walk in the park if you are the president facing these kinds of stresses. but throughout, and indeed the vice president did resign in .hat first two-week in october, the president was there to make the decision. the things came off american defense production line, the battlefield was turned around so that israel could avoid being defeated. , the evolution of any crisis, in this case the tipping of the balance in favor of israel, which almost brought in airbornet union's division, and it caused an alert al lae american side, in almost, but he stood there like a rock. ensuringcisions and that the aftermath not only was the security of egypt and the arab states restore to a measure of stability, but, an opening was created for the first time since israel became a state, for a dialogue with an arab leader who had the statesmanship and the character to be willing to engage against the counsel of and engagecountry with israel and lay the foundation for the first peace treaty between israel and an arab state. able to dont was that, notwithstanding all of the pressures he was under, through the system that he ran and managed, regardless of his own personal circumstance, through the excellence of dr. kissinger, now his secretary of state -- memo tould write a himself because he was also the defense secretary at the same time. >> that's right. >> i want to get back to the president. he did have the guts and the intelligence. they did not let israel wipe out the egyptian army, because that would have made it psychologically difficult for the arab negotiations. so they have a cease-fire. i was involved in that. we went to moscow. had some dignity and self-respect to negotiate, and hubris, solosing its both sides were ready to negotiate. you not only have to manage the crisis, but you had a specific westsag, called the and that would only work if you had a couple of things intellectually in place. one, a strategy for the region. it is not like a recipe that you're going to pull off, but if you do some contingency planning, and you think about a on,on strategically early so when a crisis breaks out, you at least have some background with which to maneuver and to tailor your tactics. so you needed this committee, which you also need a more formal system of advancement. >> what you talk about that for a moment. john, if you, and could weigh-in, what did congress think of this? congress was crucial, if they did not have the budget, some of these things would not happen. >> but she would have state defense, cia, joint chiefs present. basic -- just like the other committee meetings, but this was specified for crises. nsa meetings would start out with a briefing by cia to give the intelligence background. henry would give the overview including options involved. each of the agencies would present their views and why they backed a particular option. nixon, like most presidents, would listen and go off and think about and make his decision later. >> was congress brought in? >> let me talk about congress a little later. this five years i don't think has ever been matched. it was due in no small measure to the concept of the president and henry as to how it should run. that resulted in the recruiting of some truly first-class, unusual people. it was kept small. me, there weres only about 30 professionals on kissinger's staff. only abouta total of 120. that was why it was so effective, because it was very agile. it could move quickly. all the professional staff bybers' calls were answered whomever was being called. whether the cabinet secretary or a senate foreign relations chairman. thingslarly in crisis, moved very quickly and credibly. that there aree strong things to say on the macon system, -- the reagan system, which was really a version of the nixon system. councilonal security was a structure that functions because it was a very high quality, very small, and very agile. of howlook at the 120 the system should work and today withit to 1700. >> 1700? >> when we were on the national commission twoe years ago, that is what it was. quadrennial defense review, excuse me. >> i think this is a significant point. staff innal security 1969 was probably 10 people. it may have gotten up to 30 professionals by the time the nixon administration was finished. maybe as many as 80 or 100 people. that counts everybody for me typing the president's daily brief two henry kissinger. you're now saying it is 1700? i am blown away. where are they? >> i will tell you where they are. we were there, we had some people in the basement of the west wing. a few people on the first floor. then we had about 3/4 of one floor in the executive office building. today, they have taken over what eob. to be called the new that is filled with nsc staff. >> it has become another institution of government. it is very bureaucratic. they still have plenty of good people, that they are embedded in a huge bureaucratic system so it does not function today the way it did in either the reagan carter years. the height of its effectiveness was the nixon administration. it was because it was mean -- lean and agile. >> to us wonder crises. -- to respond to crisis. >> one of the things that drove president nixon craziness leaks -- crazy was leaks. as i am could be made, making the case, john will remember from 1969 particularly that ultimately it was this concern and passion about stopping leaks that led to watergate. it was a direct connection. it was mentioned there is going to be a subcommittee on american commitments abroad. i happen to read it. john and i discussed it. thereupon began a long effort that culminated in the fall of 1969 with a 70-page memorandum, the same topic you turned into a doctoral dissertation at cambridge if i'm not mistaken. we presented this memorandum. oddly enough, the memorandum was not acted upon. it went into limbo. when i was preparing to come back to the white house, haldeman -- bob haldeman, president nixon's chief of staff, called me and said the president remembers your memorandum from 1969 and would like to implement it. he wants you to implement it. i said no way am i going to do that because among the recommendations were reviewing everyone's security clearances. i personally wanted no part of reviewing anybody's security clearances. i did not want to see raw data. the leakage came just as much from inside the white house as from the bureaucracy. it was bureaucracy that nixon distrusted and henry also distrusted. but in reality, there was just as much leakage coming right out of the nsc. >> back channels and all the rest. >> and major feature of this system was secrecy. there were pluses and minuses. i have already suggested the most urgent issues with themselves to tightly held negotiations. other people out, leave aside the morale and humiliation, you may not get the full expertise of other agencies to get you ready for what you are secretly negotiating. hope to get briefings on chinese even though we were sick really going to china in a few weeks. general still have the request that the president would like to know more about taiwan and so on. the other disadvantage is if you carry out something secretly and then announce an agreement, the agencies cut out in the first place will be tinted to say we could have done a better job if you had left this out or we had known about this grid so that is the risk you run. the system was awkward, humiliating. but it produced terrific results. one of the problems was where it led. i will give you one example. china, wenature to had a public trip to india and pakistan on a small plane. there were three types of people on the plane. four of us knew we were going secretly to china. was public for other reasons. there were two or three that knew we were going but did not go with desperate they had to stay behind and pakistan to cover the secret journey. there were others that did not know anything about china. i was in charge of briefing folks. i had to keep three different sets of briefing books. one for four of us. went for a slightly larger group -- one for a slightly larger group. henry would be napping. he would wake up and want all three changed all over again. this was absurd. the advantage on china was if you had a lot of publicity about the opening of china, although we did send signals we discussed. the taiwan lobby, the anti-communist extremists, all other allies would be weighing in and you would be him t restricted. it was a dramatic opening. . the disadvantage was the state department criticized the shanghai communiqué because they were not involved. public meeting, it was just for the art p.r. we were making offers to in the war from the beginning beyond what the editorials were calling for. we were being moderate. hanoi was intransigent. id a public price because no one knew we were negotiating. negotiated with some help from the arms community salt one, the first big treaty. later that ifzed you involve the bureaucracies, you would not have made some mistakes. i would say the positives outweigh the minuses because look at the results. you did pay the price in human terms and in terms of bureaucratic strife. >> in the case of the arms control negotiations with the russians, the soviet union, and the vietnam peace agreement, there were public, formal negotiations run by the state department. it you guys were doing this secret back channel trip where you were doing the heart of the negotiation here, but the media and congress could focus there. >> you paid a price. the public once looked meaningless and no one realized we were making a real effort to in the war. you can comment on the arms control part. >> i was going to add to your point about the china negotiations. people to this day apply the policy. they said, did it have to be secret? well, consider this. at the time, china was killing in the cultural revolution literally tens of millions of its own people. consider the left-wing in our country, every american really would have been revolted by the idea we are going to be engaging in trying to foster relations with a country doing that. the right wing could have said this is a country that is providing the ak-47's to vietnam killing americans right now. this is a country in chaos literarily internally. if you had said let's float that i get in public and see what thate think about it -- idea in public and see what people think about it, it would not have gone over well. if you are going to take the country in a profoundly new direction on any piece of public policy vulnerable to being heavily criticized, as these were, laterones it came to a similar thing but i won't digress on the reagan years, but had to be in secret or it never would have developed as the success it was. gains we made today are self-evident. it was a good idea. it would have never happened. >> we did pay a price with japan and nato allies. but that was temporary. there could have been leaks. that reinforces your point. >> the other major accomplishment was the middle east diplomacy. everyone knew kissinger was shuttling back and fourth. was the fact he did not go on television to talk about it, it once he became secretary of state he had other responsibilities to be done in the public eye? >> let's come back to that because i never answered your question about congress which bears directly on secrecy. thing henry's attitude to congress when he first came in -- i think henry's attitude to congress when he first came in with the same as admiral already , put in aternie king the beginning of world war ii. he was known to be a brusque character. officenavy, there is the of legislative affairs. admiral said here's what we have planned for you to brief the committee. he said i am not breaking any committees. what should we tell them? tell them nothing. when the war is over, tell them who won. [laughter] i think that was henry's attitude towards congress. that is why you don't see it in any of the preparatory doctrine, but he is a fast learner. pretty soon he was finding congress intruding and attacking on every level. luckily he had three of the ,inest tutors ever in the job so he soon realized he had to start dealing with these people. >> not to mention congress approved the nsa budget. >> right. it was an unending crisis and battle from the first day until henry went to state. than it took on another level. naturald out to be a because he learned so quickly that first you cannot tell them nothing, but you have to be careful who you tell what to. to summarize a lot of different manage.he was able to people think congress is polarized today? it is nothing compared to those days. the bitterness between the democrats and republicans, particularly on the vietnam war, you could cut it with a knife. people were not talking to each other. >> don't forget on whose watch the vietnam war stareted. half a million people across the street on the mall demonstrating. come intor, we had to work and crawl under the buses that surrounded the old white house. remember that? of the price we paid for secret negotiations which we had to do. i am not saying the demonstrations would have gone if they had known, but it would have helped. at up on usbe up saying aren't you even negotiating and we would have just come back from a secret trip. >> the foreign relations committee was a sieve. they felt early on they were not getting what was happening. toill was introduced andoena henry to testify make him subject to senate confirmation. basically, we came up with a strategy to give them inside skinny briefings with no staff present and the foreign relations committee. but to in writing, stroke them so they were getting the truth of what was going on, to appoint. to take carethem of not looking totally out of the picture. over to theke us minority caucus. henry was brilliant and being able to talk about the half-empty part of the glass to those constituents. soon he had to make deals with congress and deal with crises just as important as dealing with the chinese or soviets. he almost single-handedly had to block legislation constantly being proposed and easily getting a majority of signatures. book in itself. secrecy, as he became more known particularly after the china announcement, we have to watch this guy, it was harder for him to do secret things. he was in middle east the was moreiplomacy public than he would have preferred. winston would know more in detail. there were several layers of what was going on in addition to the public. >> it was essentially a state department operation. he was secretary of state on most of the shuttles. that was under ford as well as nixon. also not neglect that dimension of washington that is so terribly important, the style section of the "washington post." henry quickly discovered he could be socially active, shall we say. it may be the interview with the italian newswoman. >> very beautiful. >> charming. interview, i recall he spoke about riding into town as john wayne or a cowboy would. once we were in paris with for secret- negotiations with the vietnamese. henry had to camouflage when we were there. negroponteand john to draft the peace agreement while he went out to dinner with a beautiful blonde so everyone paid attention to that and not why we were in town. he was sacrificing himself. [laughter] >> i did not say it was not useful. it could also be enjoyable. [laughter] one of the reasons he kept such an effective staff was the people he wanted and did not see as a threat he was totally loyal to. to a dinnerff once off the record, how naïve i was with ae days, dinner foreign service officer to talk about how we could improve security because leaks were everyday. "washington post" front page. i dutifully did that and said we have the same problem with senator fulbright in the foreign relations committee. is an above the fold headline, his and your aid -- attacks fulbright -- -- "kissinger aide attacks fulbright for leaking." which he was doing. , henry call from al haig wants to see you. >> this is not going to be a good meeting, you can tell. >> where am i going to work after this? in.me in and he says go on henry is sitting at his desk. "lehman, the secretary of state has said you must be fired, that you are poisoning relations which he has been working on for relations withe , so i waslbright called into the president's saide and president nixon i know bill called you, he called me and said you should fire this fellow lehman." said, what do you think, henry? henry said, i was thinking of promoting him. [laughter] one point gets back to the system. image an important point neither nixon nor kissinger wanted yes-men or women. they wanted honest points of view and debate before a decision was made. that once the decision was made if you were on the losing side, you carry it out loyaltly. if not, you resigned. that is how i got to be a special assistant. the first year i was in the executive office building. we sent memos on contingencies and doubles advocacy --devil's advocacy. i sent a couple but my boss let me soon on my own resizing some of our policies. henry was impressed with the argument even though he disagreed with it, he made me special assistant. to underline the fact that nixon and kissinger both wanted fierce debate and options, but they wanted loyalty once you made the decision. >> i would love to get everybody's final thoughts on the nsc, the structure, how it ,orked and why it succeeded particularly you who later became national security advisers to president reagan. did the system work only for nixon and kissinger? did it work effectively going forward from that? i will let you think about it. john, do you want to wrap up your final thoughts? >> i believe the national security system has never worked even inbefore or since, the reagan years for different reasons. a combination of the way it operated after kissinger became secretary of would be a way to improve because the present day the cabinet officers need to be included in the real decision-making. if you keep them totally excluded the way they were, they go off and do independent scheming. his ownd was cutting deals with congress and not telling henry or anybody else about them because he was cut out of the inside game. there would be ways to improve on it. i think win put it perfectly. really good people can make the system work -- make any system work although it can be less cumbersome and efficient. mediocre people, timeservers, can't make the best system produce good policy. that is what we have to keep in mind as we see every part of the government bloated to the point they do not function. humiliatings it was for secretary rogers and others. to have toard for us keep two or three different sets of memos, secret trips and back channels. we have not talked about telegrams done for the cia in secret meetings and trips. having said that, you have to look at the results which is ultimately what you're looking for. i think several factors made it work. we are retouched on them. with a a president tremendous interest and background in foreign policy, a strong national security advisor , the kind of issues that live themselves to this kind of system. dealing with parliament and public opinion, it is difficult to deal with the issues. the final thing we have not touched on is the relationship between nixon and kissinger. it was filled with temple the loans -- ambivalence but successful. nixon struck a perfect balance between someone who was mired in details who had good foreign policy successes and the other extreme of delegating all foreign policy. he set the strategy. but he knew in kissinger, he had the guts to appoint him and he was working for his opponent before the election, he had sufficient trust in him as a negotiator in the tactics to carry out the strategy. they would agree on the strategy and henry would carry it out. henry had a view of the world that was strongly parallel on all the major issues. nixon was willing to be involved in making sure we did what we wanted strategically but letting henry. out --carry it out. i think that balance was a crucial part of the success. >> there being nothing inherently wrong with the structure create at the outset of the nixon i saw no reason to change it by 1980 and 1981. it was a comprehensive system that integrated all the elements of national power and national security in the broadest possible implications. i continued it and unashamedly so. one of the problems that arose haig the very outset al being appointed secretary of state, reagan did not know al well. there are all sorts of back stories i will not bother to get into, interim meetings arranged .or haig an reagan but al wanted to run everything outside the three-mile limit. the first day of the administration, the very first day after the inauguration, that afternoon presented a memorandum. i had seen earlier drafts and said to al it will not fly with this president whom al did not know either. basically what happened was we had no crisis management until march 23. that is two-and-a-half months, a long time into the first part of the reagan administration. finally i broke the logjam. >> what happened in march? >> sorry, president reagan was shot at the hilton hotel. i raced back to the white house to implement that which had been just approved on the 23rd of march, seven days before the president was shot. it was crisis management. i had proposed to break the logjam. al wanted to do it and it belongs in the white house to courtney all the elements thank you coordinate -- to coordinate all the elements. that lead to some misunderstandings about whom succeeded home that day. the famous day. the point was the system worked very well. when you had an organization of the type nixon set up with kissinger and all of us in 1969. hugefunctioned with elements of tension as pointed out by my colleagues, but the system worked. you could try decisions home -- you could drive decisions home. you cannot do that if all the decision making elements are dispatched to the bureaucracy. >> when you became national security adviser, you were one of the architects of winning the cold war. u are being very generous. dependsquestion, it entirely on the president and the degree to which he or she vision of what american interests are and how they can be advanced in their term of office. in addition to having some knowledge of what you want to do, you have got to have a sense of order, discipline. looking back over the past several generations, resident nick sent's -- president nixon's model has stood the test of time of having good people with knowledge and understanding of foreign cultures, the middle east, the far east, to russia, latin america. system for manage a planning, decision-making, and for overseeing what you decide is the president gets done -- as the president gets done. you need a highly talented group of people. but the president sets the tone and cracks the whip, hires and fires, and moves us in a constructive direction. president nixon's legacy speaks for itself in all these areas we discussed here from the china opening to ending the vietnam engaging the soviet union in reducing nuclear weapons over time later on and the middle east. relationshipshose without question were better at the end of the nixon presidency than when he arrived clearly. that model stood the test of time through the reagan years. >> everybody talks about the great successes of the golden era of american foreign-policy, the nixon-kissinger period. what people forget to talk about is the enduring legacy. we know there was the legacy of thepolicy itself, opening of china. arms reductions agreements never would have happened if they had not happened. we have seen the problem of getting into and out of wars, vietnam legacy, certainly in the middle east we are still reaping the peace of the middle east from the 1970's. what gets overlooked is the enduring legacy of the people on the national security staff. everyone has referred to the high quality of it. but when henry kissinger has his reunions every several years and people come back, everyone looks around and is stunned to see how went on from junior staffers under nixon and besinger who went on to cabinet officers, national security visors -- advisors, more than you can count. it was not just what the policies were, but the people who were trained under that system who went on. we walked with giants. you walked with giants when you're junior members on kissinger's national security staff. but then he became giants of your own. allen who was nixon's first security advisor went on to work for ronald reagan and was the tutor to his strategy in his campaign and went on to be reagan's first national security advisor. the junior guy working for nixon who almost got fired that day, went on to be the secretary of the navy in the reagan administration. it was the 600-ship navy and naval presence that helped convince the soviet union had no choice. over byut cold war was the tommy got our 600 ships. john went on to do that. winston lord became the main point guard for american chinese relations for 30 years. china,e ambassador to assistant secretary for asian affairs, president of the council on foreign relations. the job started out not knowing a lot about china. when i go to china and mention the name of winston lord, you're up there with the great superheroes. finally, bud mcfarlane, started out as major mcfarlane when i first knew you, went on to become reagan's national security adviser. to reagan star will -- the reagan star wars speech talks about the united states developing the missile shield. those are for a different forum . but bud mcfarlane was an architect of the ultimate takedown of the soviet union. the people in their 20's and 30's in the nixon administration, in their 40's and 50's became the men who won the cold war. onhink maybe is going to be your speed dial wanting to know how we win the next one. thank you for joining us. i hope you come back for the subsequent forums where we will drill down deeper into china, vietnam, the soviet union, and strategic planning. thanks so much for joining us. >> every sunday at 8:00 and midnight, you can learn from leading historians about presidents and first ladies. to watch any of our programs or check our schedule, visit www.c-span.org/history. you are watching american history tv on c-span3. baker,ay night, wade security director for verizon on the recent data breaches. >> it is truly all of the above. we have worked with law enforcement agencies who have busted down doors and drag people out of the basement literally. we also have participated in large-scale arrests of multiple individuals highly connected, very well organized. each have individual specialties and roles. someone writes software. the others know how to wash the money and all these things. they are just like physical organized crime. there are others working on behalf of a government. they have an office. there are pictures of it. hotos and all of that going in and out of work. their job is to steal information on behalf of the government. i have seen photos of eastern where an insane number of people drive lamborghinis and things like this. , the of that is the spam fake pharmaceuticals, the financial fraud, tax fraud, medicare fraud. it is staggering amounts of that are traced back to stored at a corporation or government. on c-span2.ght in september of 1964, the worn commission releasts
we were quite surprised there was no mention of the 40 deaths. i personally made no attempt to change that. that wasodd, since all over the news. we had questions from our neighbors and families, you worked for the v.a., did you kill 40 people? that's what people thought. but that is not the most important part of the i.g. report. the most important part was that we have delays in care. that's what we have to fix. i was interested that the report should address the 40 deaths, because my concern was veterans did not have faith in their health care system, and they need to come to us for care if they need health care. >> and, when you mentioned, you said "we." the part that concerns me, you are the chief of staff, so this news, and wet of do have to move forward, trying to get back to where the disconnect is. when you mentioned "we," who is the "we?" >> i corrected myself to "i" because i'm under oath and can only week to myself. >> but who did you talked with within the department? >> i know there were multiple meetings within vha, leadership, communication staff, with the congressional fault -- folks in vha. it was in the news. we were waiting to get the report to see what it said. we did take immediate action right after the interim report and we want to know, where else are we falling short, not providing quality care to veterans? we need to get our act together and fix it. what else do we need to put in place? >> is that "we," secretary shinseki, or some staff below you? >> collectively, everyone in the department we have over 300,000 employees in vha. i'm sure almost every single one of them gets up every day to make a difference for veterans, as i do. we don't come to work to try to mislead or hide anything. >> i realize you have employees, but when you said we discussed the report, i'm sure you did not discuss that with the 300,000 employees. just trying to narrow down who the "we" you are talking about -- i know that being the chief of staff that you, that's your job. that's a very important job. you set the tone, as well as the undersecretary. so i do have a concern about some of your answers today. i yield back. >> one final question. dr. thomas, who do you believe o.i.g.sioned this report? >> i believe the report was initially started because of a hotline call from a physician from phoenix. and after the april 9th hearing, o do so. was directed tyo >> by who? chargedieve congress them with investigating the issue, my believe. i could be wrong. >> you are correct. >> ok. >> so my question is, how is it you got the final report before congress got it? >> the final draft? >> the final report. >> i did not get the final report-- >> the final draft. call it a draft, call it a report. how did you see the final copy, whatever it was? if you saw the final draft, you saw the final report. how did you see it before congress? >> sorry, i don't know when congress got it. it was publicly or p -- released and i saw the final draft because we had to respond to it before it was published. >> ok. well, it has been your testimony, both of you, that neither one of you knew any of this was happening. is that correct? >> can you be more specific in your question, sir? any of what was happening? >> i don't know, manipulation of data, problems with scheduling, any issues within delays in care, you were not aware of any? >> in the spring. >> you became aware in july of 2011? >> 2011. >> you were not aware of any delays in care until april 9 of 2014? >> as i said when i started, i think vha miss the boat. >> i'm talking about you, personally. >> from the i.g. >> i am talking what you personally. >> i am a member of vha. >> you tell me you were aware of none of the problems until the hearing on april 9th? >> what i'm trying to explain, as the situation arises, we were looking at that as an isolated event, as each of the i.g. reports, rather than taking a holistic approach anymore conference of approach -- comprehensive approach and looking them -- at them together. >> so your testimony is you were not aware of any chewing problems -- scheduling problems or delays in care until april 9? >> i was not aware of the extent of the problem. >> what does that mean? >> as i said, each time a report was issued, we would look at it, respond to it, and create an action plan for the national report. >> the interesting thing, what v.a. usually does, it's interesting that they accept all the recommendations in every report that has ever been handed to them. now i see how it works. v.a. are working hand in glove, they are a know what they will agree to. -- already know what they will agree to. this is the first time i can actually ist v.a. doing things they had in the past certified they had done. >> respectfully, i would not agree with your characterization of our relationship with o.i.g. >> i understand, and i will retract that statement, but you did get the draft, you respond, you make changes, it goes back to -- do you not? it is anortant -- important decision to make between the report and the action plan. >> i'm not talking about the action plan. the i.g. may 23 recommendations in the report? >> 24. >> 20 -- three have already been done. i guess, congratulations to the v.a., for the first time i can recall, for actually moving on the recommendations and not just certifying them and then we find out months and years later they have not been done. we appreciate you being here. we do apologize for the length you have had to be here today. thank you very much. mr. patrick -- kirkpatrick? >> thank you. i want to thank our staff. we started this at noon, and it has been a long day. but we need to put in this kind of effort to get it right for our veterans. i just want to say, i really appreciate everybody's ever. >> thank you very much. members, i would like each of you to know that sharon was also invited to appear, and we reached out to her attorney, and we never received a response to the invitation that was issued, but she in fact was invited to appear. with that, this hearing is adjourned. [captioning performed by national captioning institute] [captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2014] >> tomorrow, bob goodlatte talks about some of the issues before his committee, including immigration and border security. he also talks about the recent vote by lawmakers to allow the arming and training of syrian rebels in their fight against isis. and president obama's authority for using military action than forward. >> one of the issues you know the congress has been addressing for about a year now, since i started raising it last year, not too long after i became chairman of the committee, is the president's duty to faithfully execute the law, and the concern that there are literally dozens of areas where we believe the president has taken that can and phone and done things the law does not allow him to do. one of the areas is deferred action. i believe the program should be terminated, and i have so voted in the legislative package that we passed prior to the august recess. but it also has been on thathort list of issues the congress, the house, has looked at closely in terms of bringing a lawsuit against the president to reestablish the principle of separation of powers and the fact that the president is exceeding his authority. as you know, the house chose a different one, which is the issue related to the employer mandate in obamacare or the affordable care act. we believe there are many others , instances and opportunities to do that. and i would suggest to you that if the president takes further steps, as he seems to be promising to do -- he deferred it until after the election, i was glad he diverted, but now i want to know -- deferred it, but now i want to know the significance of waiting until after the election to take this action that many of us think violates the law. and if he does do that after the election, i would think that is a strong candidate for the house taking further legal action, because we don't believe he has the authority under the prosecutorial discretion provision in our intended -- immigration laws to take what is intended to give discretion in really tough cases and have it swallow the law itself by applying it to hundreds of thousands of cases. so this is a serious area that is harming our ability to move forward on immigration reform. >> you can watch the entire interview with congressman goodlatte tomorrow at 10:00 a.m. and 6:00 p.m. eastern on c-span. here are just a few of the comments we recently with the from our viewers. >> i want to say how much i enjoy sees and -- c-span. i listen to the call-in show, and on the weekends, i love the history shows and book shows. i travel quite a bit in the summer, and i take notes from your history programs and sometimes from book reviews, and it has really enhanced my travel because i see things in different places, people and objects that i would not have looked for before hearing and seeing your programs. so you really made my life so much 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"the three branches and you," showing how a policy or action by the federal government has affected you or your community. 200 cash prices for students and teachers totaling $100,000. for a list of rules, go to studentcam.org. >> in his weekly address, president obama talked about the u.n. response to the isis terrorist group. congressman cory gardner from colorado gave the republican response. he talked about energy independence and jobs. >> over the past week, the united states has continued to lead our friends and allies in a strategy to degrade and ultimately destroy the terrorist group known as isil. our in terror -- intelligence committee has not yet detected specific threats against america. right now they pose a threat to the people of iraq, syria, and the -- broader middle east, but its leaders have threatened the united states, and if left unchecked could pose a growing threat. so last month i gave the orders for our military to begin taking positive -- targeted action against isil. since then, american pilots have flown more than 170 airstrike against them in iraq, and france has now joined us in these airstrikes. going forward, we will not hesitate to take action in iraq or syria, but this is not america's fight alone. i will not commit our troops to fighting another ground war in iraq or in syria. it is more effective to use our capabilities to help partners on the ground secure their own countries' futures. we will use air power, we will train and equip partners, we will advise, we will assist, and we will lead a broad coalition of nations who have a stake in this fight. this is not america versus isil. this is the people of that region versus isil, the world versus isil. we have been working to secure bipartisan support, because i believe we are strongest when the president and congress work together. we have been consulting closely with congress and last week secretary of state carry, secretary defense hagel, and military leaders worked to gain support. a majority of democrats and republicans in the house and senate have approved a key part of a strategy by wide margins, giving our troops the authority they need to train syrian opposition fighters so they can fight isil in syria. powerfules send a signal to the world -- americans are united in confronting this danger, and i hope congress continues to make sure our troops get what they need to get the job done. meanwhile, more nations are joining our coalition. over 40 countries have offered to help the broad campaign against isil so far, from training and equipment to humanitarian relief to flying combat missions. this week, the united nations continues to rally the world against this threat. america has the unique ability to lead this effort. when the world is threatened, when the world needs help, it calls on america, and we call on our troops, whether it is to degrade and destroy a group of terrorists or to contain a threat like the ebola outbreak in africa. we ask a lot of our troops, and while politics may be divided at times, the american people stand united around supporting our troops and their families. this is a moment of american leadership, and thanks to them it is a moment we will meet. thanks. >> i'm cory gardner, representative for colorado's fourth congressional district. growing up in a small town on the colorado eastern plains, island communities work best when people of different backgrounds who may sometimes disagree pull together and look out for each other. that's what my parents and grand parents were about, and that's what i try to do for coloradans. americans are at their best when they are giving each other a hand and looking at for those who need help, regardless of race, color, gender, or creed. many of you would agree with me that congress and the president to learn a thing or two like places -- from places like my hometown and the extraordinary people across the nation that were together every day to build a better life for themselves, their families, and their neighbors. we face a norm is challenges today, challenges that if left unresolved will undermine our ability to give -- our children and benjamin the better life -- grandchildren the better life we want them to have. working harder every day, only to see opportunities slip from their reach. higher prices, college tuition, and conditions made worse by the failed policies of the president and senate majority. president obama continues of -- to rely on economic overreaching based on european models of the status quo rather than american ideas of growth and exceptionalism. to be clear, i do not think president obama and the democrats are trying to hurt the economy, but their policies have certainly done damage, and those wrong policies are taking a terrible toll and hurting a lot of people who voted against the president, and a lot of people who voted for him, especially ends struggling to make meet. we care about the victims of these misguided policies because they are our families, our friends, our neighbors. those who agree with us politically, and those who disagree with us. they are americans. president obama and his allies in congress have forgotten that they will -- were elected to represent all americans. they lined up with special interest actions that have lost jobs, hurt the poor, sold-out the most vulnerable amongst us and left too many behind. for too long, this administration and democrats in the senate have obstructed policies that would get americans back to work. they would have us believe that high unemployed and declining salaries are the new normal, that we should just used to the disappointment of low expectations. that's not good enough for my community, and i know it not good enough -- is not good enough for years. yesterday, the keystone pipeline delay turned six years old. things to the presidential in action, we are no closer to building the hype on today than six years ago. as a result, thousands of americans are missing out on good paying jobs the pipeline would create. americans know that political failures like this are the main reasons washington is broken. republicans agree, and that is why we have repeatedly called for president obama and the senate to take action, pass our jobs bills, and get america working again. who is hurt most by the obstruction? not the big corporations, not the rich. it is people looking for work, people in need of a good paying job. it is disappointing that the president and his allies have chosen divisive politics rather than fact and common sense. we have a duty to put politics aside and americans first. congress, the house and senate, and the president, have a patriotic duty to fight for all americans. in my home state of colorado, the was the book development of all types -- responsible developing of all types of resources has fueled a responsible energy revolution. not just traditional energy. wind farms and hydropower provide a model of success for the nation. if the president would stop blocking responsible energy development on public land, the nation could benefit even more. putting an end to regulatory overreach would help colorado and parts of our country they continue to struggle. the new energy economy means more jobs, more money for parents to send kids to college, and more coloradans being more certain that the next generation will have greater opportunities than their own, a greater starting point we can pass on to our children than the one we inherited from our parents. president obama can learn a thing or two from colorado when it comes to energy development. constituents regularly tell me we need more washington -- colorado in washington, and less washington in colorado. colorado support the keystone pipeline because we know that it and if it do not end -- its benefits do not end with more jobs. it would be a major step forward in making north america energy secure. at a time when the middle east is becoming more unstable, a prudent president would embrace energyall of the above strategy. we pass legislation to expedite the approval of liquefied natural gas exports. this bipartisan bill would lift 45,000 people off of him and when it rolls. many of our allies -- off of unemployed rolls. many of our allies are tethered by countries like russia, which dominate the eastern european energy market. this would make america safer while creating thousands of sorely needed jobs at home. energy independence improves the stability of our families and provides economic security from the threat of terrorism by organizations posing imminent threat to our nation, like isil and others. the president and congressional democrats don't understand this is about -- not about oil countries or billionaire donors. this is about american people who are hurt by their decision to block jobs at the behest of special interests. this is about putting americans back to work and making our nation more secure, about taking away the fear about your children's future, knowing they will not have less opportunity to have a for filling life, but more. this is about sending a message to the world that the united states still believes in what made this nation great, and unyielding belief that a brighter horizon is always within reach, and this is about taking care of our neighbors, no matter what side of town they live in and what political party they belong to. we don't have to live in an economy whose rationale seems to be managed decline instead of inspiration and innovation. we have the power to change the course of our nation by getting government out of the way and letting america work. we are the united states. we are liberty and opportunity, optimism and resilience. onare together in america the rise. i'm congressman cory gardner from colorado. let's get to work. >> on the next "washington journal," thomas lippman talks about the u.s. efforts to form a coalition of arab states to fight against isis. bloomberg news reporter alex wayne details a new report on reducing the number of uninsured americans. then we talk with local reporters about midterm elections in arkansas, pennsylvania, and kentucky. as always, we take your phone calls and you can join the conversation on facebook and twitter. "washington journal," lie that 7:00 a.m. -- live at 7:00 a.m. eastern on c-span. takes c-span cities tour book tv and american history tv on the road, traveling to u.s. cities to learn more about their history and literary life. this weekend we partner with comcast for a visit to st. paul, minnesota. >> st. paul, 1930's, i would not call it las vegas, but it was a very lively city. the gangsters brought their mol ls. during prohibition you had the biggest jazz artists of the decade here in st. paul. it was a very lively place, partially because the gangsters. virtually every major gangster, kidnapper, and bank robber in america lived and worked within a three block radius of where we are standing today. john dillinger, baby faced here., all were people don't know that. there are no statues of these gangsters, but this was the epicenter of 1930's crime in the era of john dillinger. the fbi, the federal bureau of investigation, j edgar hoover, had this building as their headquarters. this is a building where all the bootleggers and bank robbers were tried and sent to alcatraz, leavenworth prison, and other prisons across america. it is where it began and where it ended. >> we are standing here at fort snell, looking over the junction of the minnesota and mississippi rivers. st. paul is located up the mississippi river, and the fort was here before the city was. the fort is intimately connected in the creation of st. paul. in the 1830's, there were settlers living on the military property. finally, the army had had enough of competing them -- with them for resources and felt they should be removed from military property. the settlers moved across the river to the other side and formed what they -- formed what became the nucleus of the city of st. paul. when you think about this region, you think beyond the walls of fort snell. that's what we try to do, push people to think more about what it means when all these cultures come together. what perspectives did they have on this -- these historic events? >> watch our events from st. paul throughout the day on book tv and on american history tv on c-span 3. c-span campaign 2014 debate coverage continues monday night at 7:30 eastern with the pennsylvania governor's race between republican governor tom corbett and democratic opponent tom wolf. thursday night at 9:00, the debate between representative lee terry and state under brad ashford. and next sunday, the iowa debate between bruce braley and republican joe ennis. c-span 2014, more than 100 debates for the control of congress. >> "the communicators" is next on c-span, with verizon enterprise solutions chief technology officer wade baker, talking about a recent report on data breaches. followed by wells fargo's ceo speaking at the national press club about the role of national services. and live at 8:00 p.m. eastern, a debate between the two candidates in the iowa governor race, terry branstad and democratic state senator jack hatch. >> c-span, created by america's cable companies 35 years ago and brought to you as a public service by your local public -- local cable satellite -- or satellite provider. >> no doubt you have heard about some of the data breaches at companies such as home depot and target, sony's playstation as well. this week on the -- "the communicators," we will discuss data breaches with wade baker of verizon. verizon has put up a data breach report for 2014. mr. baker is the chief technology officer and security director for verizon enterprise solutions. what does that mean, mr. baker? what the you do? >-- what do you do? >> we research security technologies and try to bring them into our products so we secure corporate customers and consumers. >> what is the definition of a data breach? ,> and unauthorized individual or it could be a group, gains access to a nonpublic -- nonpublic information. the clearest definition of it. could be corporate secrets, could be personal information, could be
information you don't want the public to see. >> what are the major conclusions of your 2014 data breach report? >> major conclusions are that this thing is getting more and more complex every year. we see a wider variety of attackers. 10 years ago in the security space we mainly worried about network worms that would roam around the internet fast and knock servers off-line, but now we are worried about large-scale denial of service attacks, worried about eastern european organized crime targeting banks. we are worried about advanced threats centered around espionage. the problem has gotten much more complex. >> joining the conversation today is joe marks from politico, technology reporter. >> thank you. so wade, the focus has been on these big point-of-sale attacks happening between when you swipe your card and the information going to the company. are we particularly vulnerable at that moment? >> we are. a lot of people are aware, when they buy something online, to make sure the site is legit. a little worried about entering the payment card. but you just don't think about it when you swipe a card at a terminal, just because we have done it for a long time. we are used to that technology. it is less mysterious. but the fact the matter, essen as you swipe a card the data transfers at a network inside store, communicated to a network, and there are many points when that could be copper mise. these things -- compromised. these things happen every day. >> there was one recently at home depot, and of course target last year. your report says that as of 2013, these were decreasing. is that right? >> they are decreasing, but there is an important distinction. we have been doing this report for seven years. we have 10 years of data. you can see changes in the threat landscape over that time. seven years ago we saw very large banks and payment processors compromised, very big breaches. then we had an era where it seemed like a lot of mom-and-pop shops, small to medium businesses, were compromised. now in the last year it seems to have shifted back to larger retailers. it is just a natural flow. numerically speaking, we have fewer, but as far as the amount of data compromised it is much larger, because those are larger breaches with more impact. >> when this happens, it seems it is not necessarily the store third-partys some that the hackers are able to get in through. then access all this information. can you explain this ecosystem, and is there a way to possibly make it safe? >> it is a frightening web when you start digging into it. this doesn't only exist in retailers. it is pervasive, the supply chain we are all a part of, increasingly complex. at specifically retailers, point-of-sale system is in a store, and the store is part of many other stores. it could be multiple chains under one umbrella of management. these things are all going to be networked. very often with retailers, there is not a local security team there to take care of the point of sale system, so you hire a third party who is responsible for protecting and maintaining the point-of-sale system. anytime you add a third party to the mix, you add a way for people to access the point-of-sale system, usually remotely, which also opens up the door for an unauthorized individual, hacker, whatever you want to call them, to exploit that vector. that happens in a lot of these. they steal the password of the third-party managing the system and access them just as though they were the ones authorized to do so. >> in the case of target, the inroad was the hvac company. you don't expect them to have the best internet security. that is not their expertise. is there a way to force security on this ecosystem? >> there have been many. an interesting point. not only are there more third parties in the mix, but we are also putting more things on the network. is connectedn hvac to a network connected to another network that your payment systems are connected to, that is something we tend to forget about as we add complexity to networks over time. and there should be. anytime you have a payment network, it should be completely isolated from anything else. but it is like an old house. networks have grown up over time. you knocked down a wall and you find a passageway into another part of the house you did not even know existed. so it is a difficult problem. >> has wireless added to the problem? >> most definitely. going back to retail stores, not only do you have the network, the wireline network, that you have wireless systems they could be for employees, for inventory payments, even rfid and bluetooth, the things that come in and out of stores. so absolutely, an attacker could sit in a parking lot and of the wireless network is not secured, they could gain access remotely. report,eport, -- your which is online at our website, communicators,/ you talk about nine types of hacks. one -- what is that? >> we have all been on the web and all used some kind of online web application, a website, something like that. a lot of people don't realize it looks like a page of words. somewhereerver running a web application. sometimes various applications will take your data if you fill out a form, return information back to you, help you manage your bank account, play with facebook, whatever you like to do online. these applications run on code, and anytime you have code there can be vulnerabilities in the code. the software also needs to be updated over time. many times these things stay on internet and are not cached and updated. people are familiar because he get updates on your own pc constantly escaping with a web server or application. if you don't take care of them, they will have holes in them, and the bad guys know exactly what they are. >> and vulnerabilities run a fromenant --huge gamut, credit for data to the syrian electronic army ceiling a twitter account. -- anything related? >> some of them are. the analyst are having difficulties getting her arms around them. we talked to organizations and many said, forget it, i can't even keep up with the threats out there. they seem so diverse. we did some analysis, and i won't go into the math behind it, but basically all these 100,000 incidents fit more or less within one of those nine buckets. some of them are very related. we have some thing called crimeware, which is malicious software that gets installed on a computer and is various things. we also have a pattern, denial of service attacks. normally you wouldn't think malicious code running on a computer is related to denial of service attacks, which are launched at a web server to knock it off line so it doesn't work anymore, but the fact of alwaretter is, often m gets installed on a system and joins one system to a network of other systems that have the same malware installed on them, and as a unit these hundreds of thousands of systems, a distributed denial of service attack, attacks a website. maybe you are upset with a message they released. it knocks it off-line. a lot of these patterns are interrelated. >> are there cases in which it is the same people who are hitting the defense department, trying to steal intelligence, who are also getting your bank account information? >> there is some of that. a lot of the shadowy underworld that is difficult to track. there are some groups that definitely are financially motivated, in business to hack into banks and retailers, wanting to steal personal information so they can translate that into cash. others are firmly rooted in more espionage, working for a government type thing. then there's a middle ground where we do see some movement in between, some shared tools that they use, and also shared people as far as we can tell. so yes, there is a connection. that's one of the things that we as security researchers try to know. because the better we know our adversary, the better we are able to protect against them. >> are these people sitting in their basements? is there an organized office? is this government sponsored? >> it is truly all of the above. we have worked with law enforcement agencies who busted down doors and drag people out of their basements, literally. inhave also participated fairly large-scale arrests of multiple individuals that are very highly connected together, very well organized, each with individual specialities. someone writes malicious software, the others know how to wash the money, all these things. just like organized crime. then there are others definitely working on the half of a government. they have an office with pictures in it, all that kind of thing, going in and out of work. they go to that building. that is their job, to hack into companies and steal information on behalf of a government. >> is this profitable? >> it seems to be very much so, unfortunately. there are places, i have seen photos of some eastern european where anr instance, insane number of people drive lamborghinis and things like this. thet of that is the spam, fake pharmaceuticals, the financial fraud, tax fraud, medicare fraud, all these things. staggering amounts of money that at some point along the chain are traced back to data that was stolen, stored at a corporation or government. >> verizon is an isp, a wireless provider. what kind of measures does your company take to prevent attacks on your systems? >> of course, we are in many playing ground a lot of this takes place over. so i will go back to the denial of service attacks that are an attempt to knock a company off-line. could be a government. could be a company. that takes place over our network in many cases, so we very often jump in their with that company being attacked, work with them tightly, because the more they are attacked, it is also slowing down traffic on our network and affecting other customers, so we try to shut that off as close to the source as we can, both to preserve that company and our own network. from a data breach perspective, we are very often trying to find malicious communication taking place. we work with companies to prevent them from ever having intrusions into the network, but we also have a team that helps respond when something does go wrong, to respond very quickly and work with law enforcement, do notifications, whatever is needed. it is multiple levels, at the consumer and corporate level. >> when you find someone on the network like that, can you give us a play-by-play about how you get them off? do you take them off right away, or check them out for a while? >> it depends on the customer and what they know about it. if it looks like just a system that is maybe infected with network, weside the will just recommend to take that off-line as soon as possible. attacksore complex sometimes we need to watch and see what is going on, and we have worked with customers to set almost network cameras on their network to see what's going on, and now we have evidence. you need to catch them in the act, so to speak. we can do that. many times it is putting evidence together, almost digital fingerprints. you can tell certain attackers by the way they do things, the artifacts they leave behind, and that traces to certain groups. a lot of times we will work with law enforcement at that level. unfortunately, it is often kind of a whack a mole situation. you may only think there's one compromised, but there may be hundreds or thousands. you may clean this one up, but they pop up here and here and here. that's one of the most difficult parts of responding. >> can you explain how they get in to do that? >> absolutely. often there is one initial vector of infection. you would be surprised how symbol that is. >> what is a vector? >> just a way in the door. think about, if i wanted to get into a house, what could i do? walk in the front door, break a window, if i really needed to i could tunnel up through the floor. if you are an attacker, you will take the easiest way in, which is what most attackers to. sometimes that's a vulnerability in a web application. sometimes that sending a phis hing e-mail to a user that they clicked on, and that opens the doorway for an attacker to come in. once they have, we call it a foothold or established ground inside the network, then they can spread around. we know how internal networks are. now they are part of the daisy chain of computers, and they can hop from computer to computer. a lot of times they will go to the domain server that has all the user accounts and they steal hundreds or thousands of passwords, and now they can do that. the lateral spread throughout the network after that initial compromise takes place. it can happen very quickly. the idea is to get as deeply entrenched as you can, so that you see everything going on in the network. >> the phishing emails, click here to enter these sweepstakes? >> some of them are not as cheesy and obvious as those. ame of them, the good ones do well-crafted e-mail. say theyreason, let's knew we were meeting today. they might send an e-mail, thanks for coming today, i thought you would find this article interesting. they can make things believable by knowing you would have a conference at a certain time or something like this, but as soon as you open the pdf document or whatever it is, you are infected, and many times don't even know about it. >> a lot of it is technology. but also social engineering. >> absolutely. almost all the advanced attacks start with the exportation of a person i. a really simple attack, tricking someone to click on something. >> are the regulations of the federal level that apply to all this? >> there are standards and regulations for how we protect systems. many of them, depending on processing payments, a set there, storing government and classify data, another set of standards. there's increasing discussion on when an incident occurs, what you are responsible to report on it or disclose. so if you have information stored on individuals and that is compromised, you have to report that publicly and notify the individuals. and more and more of this discussion is taking place. it's not always regulated into law. a lot of it is voluntary. there's a realization that if we can share information, we are aware of the situation going on. because the attackers are working together. that is a fact. >> why is it better that information sharing the voluntary rather than something organized to the government? >> many times they are voluntary. you can join, get information, give information, and they'd don't require you have to tell me exactly these things on every single bit. i think it's better voluntary, because you are going to get better information that way, you are going to get to the root issues. if we make a law saying, these things have to be shared, essen as you make that law now it has to be updated and changed, and the situation we are in is very fluid and things can change drastically over time. so something needs to adapt to that regularly. same thing with controls. if i say, here are the 10 things everyone needs to do today, one problem we have had in security is they don't get updated fast enough. a lot of complaint about that in the retail and financial sectors. information sharing is extremely important, and there's a lot of really good reasons to do it that organizations are latching onto. they realize, if i share and get information, that is very helpful to me, and i am also reaping the benefits, and so are my peers when we do this. the last supper years especially, that has really increased as far as i can tell. >> are there concerns from the other side, that when you share information you're giving up your own intellectual property or you might be violating an agreement with a client? >> absolutely. you are asking very perceptive questions. the things that i hear as far as concerns on information sharing, yes, violating some kind of client privilege. ,hould i be able to share that abstractions of that information with others so they can better prepare for a similar attack? concern about brand. if i share this and say that we had an incident, is that going to reflect negatively on me and look like i am not prepared to deal with security? on that note, we are increasingly under the impression that the difference between secure organizations and nonsecure organizations often is not whether they have ever had a compromise, just because it is a fact of doing business, like any other accident, but it is how well you prepare for and respond to those things. you see organizations that take forever to figure out what happened, very slow to respond, and then there are some that act very quickly and let everyone know about it, open and honest, deal with the situation. that is often the difference between good and bad cases. but there are concerns. >> you think that model is understood by the public, that you can be breached well or breached badly? are companies explaining that to the public well enough? >> i don't know. i did a little experiment with my family at holiday gatherings and stuff like that. over the last several years that i have been in this breach world. when there is a breach, it is big on my radar. did you hear about the such and such breach? for eight years i have gotten this no, what are you talking about? it reminds me of how small the world is. but the last year, i have asked that question, and they have heard of this. so it is getting down on their level far more than it has in the past. i don't know if it's because we are all tired of having our credit cards swapped out so many times a year, or getting the breach notices, or what it is. but there is definitely an awareness, and some of that is companies themselves driving that. government regulation seems to be -- more of a buzz about it. >> do you attend the black cat press conferences held in las vegas? >> i attended this last one. >> was invaluable for you? >> it was. it is good to understand the perspective. some of the events are changing over time. black hat is one i like to go to because you can see people out there, look at this attack i figured out, and they are trying to get publicity for themselves. that's perhaps not great, and might even be part of the problem depending on who you talk to. but it does give you perspective on how easy some of these things are. you see the latest attacks, the trends. as soon as these are talked about in a public forum, you know it is a matter of time before the criminals use the same technique. so it is a way to keep up. >> on a personal level, how often do you change your passwords? do you, for example, bank online? >> i do bank online and on my mobile phone. passwords, maybe every six months, to be honest with you. i don't change them that often. but the thing that i do is i use a password manager. i do not try to make up my own passenger -- passwords, because i will either forget them or make extremely weak ones i can remember. so i outsource that to a brain that comes up with very complex passwords. a lot of these programs are freely available for people to download. i highly recommend one. a lot of times they will it you know, there has been a breach with such and such, you might want to change your password. that is extremely helpful. so that is a tip i tell everyone, change that. and i also always enable two-factor authentication through my mobile device or something if a bank offers that. when i log in not only do i enter my password, but i get a digit code on my mobile device. that makes it a lot harder for criminals to gain access to your account. so always try to enable that as well. >> final question? >> every two or three months there seems to be, the password is dead article. is the password going to die soon? >> i hope so. [laughter] dierobably won't completely , but if you think about it, we have the means of getting over this. i think this has got to be a collective thing that we as consumers, as an industry, as retailers and banks, we need to get together and figure out how to do this. not just throw some things out there about how easy this would be. think about the fact that we enter passwords, sometimes we have to look it up, and that is how we gain access to these important accounts we have. there is a lot of information that we can do passively. most of us have microphones on our computers. my voice is far more unique in my password. the way that i type at a certain cadence is unique, statistically. we have mobile devices, most of us, with fingerprint readers on them sometimes, cameras. that's a little creepy, but they could look at it. we know where that device is. if that device is in the same location as your computer, that is a good match. there are so many other ways we could authenticate someone. i just think we have gotten used to the password. it's him was like a crutch now. >> the data breach investigations report put out by verizon is available at c-s pan.org/communicators. marks, thankoe you. >> c-span -- created by america's cable companies 35 years ago and brought to you as a public service by your local cable or satellite provider. i will governor terry branstad is running for a fifth -- iowa governor terry branstad is running for a fifth term against jack hatch. they faced each other tonight in a televised debate. here is a look at ads they are running in the race. iowans were out of work. unemployment was the highest in 25 years. the state budget was $900 million in debt. then terry branstad came back, and so did iowa. a budget surplus, 140,000 new jobs. unemployment reduced nearly 30%, and governor branstad is just getting started. iowa is back. terry branstad is building i was future. >> he is honest, compassionate, a visionary. he is always looking forward. where can we go next? to do better, bring jobs to the economy. and we see that. the jobs today, young people moving back. more iowans are working today than at any other time in our state history. i am really optimistic about the future. he definitely has a passion for this state. iowans are years, tired of governor terry branstad. the scandals, bad deals, and political favors. million bad deal, taxpayer money given to an egyptian billionaire. isu economists call it the dumbest economic decision made in iowa. branstad even tried to abolish preschool funding. aren't you tired of terry? time for a fresh start. jack hatch for governor. >> there are two men running for iowa governor. terry branstad forces tax breaks for corporations, and jack hatch supports tax cuts for middle class families. while he gave away millions to a wealthy egyptian comedy, jack hatch was putting iowans to work . only one thing branstad and jack hatch have in common. for jack, that is one thing too many. >> the debate between iowa governor and democratic challenger errors live tonight at 8:00 eastern. next, a look at the role of financial services with wells fargo ceo john stumpf. he gave his thoughts on the economy and housing market. top mortgages the lender and bank by value. this is one hour.
when we look through the lens of health 1 of 3 kids is obese or overweight. when we take the collective impact of each of those disparity points, what we see is indeed a generation of young people who are in crisis and there is a cost associated with that crisis, a cost that totals into the more than $150 billion that we estimate it will cost this nation when young people don't graduate. additional burdens that will come in the health care system. so what we see is that our work is not just about prevention but our work is really about stabilizing the very foundation of this nation in terms of leaders, in terms that we have the work force that we need, and in terms of reducing the burden on our health care system. >> and we want to let you know that you can call in and join the conversation about what the challenges are facing today's youth or share your own experience with the boys and girls club of america or other sort of mentorship organizations. if you were under 18, you can call us at 202-585-3880. if you're a parent, call us at 202-585-3881. all others can dial us at 202-585-3882. you can also corned with us on twitter at c-span wj, on facebook at facebook.com/c-span, or send us e-mail at journal@c-span.org. damon, i unthat you actually have a personal experience with the boys and girls club of america, that it helped you in your past to your current career. >> absolutely. i grew up in dayton, ohio. and i was a member of the boys and girls clubs of dayton. it was an important piece of the youth development ecosystem that really helped to put me on the pathway to what i think has been a great career and really a healthy and happy life. you know, i've been a scholar, published multiple books. i've worked at the highest levels of higher education administration and now i have an opportunity to be with boys and girls clubs of america, which is a world class organization, which really makes a difference in the lives of young people in our three priority areas and a chance to be a colleague to the thousands of youth development professionals across this country in our 4100 clubs which erve again more than 4 million youth. i don't know where i would be if the club wasn't part of my background. we look at our alumni data and my experience is similar to other alumni. what we found is over 57% of our alumni said that the club actually saved their lives and really serves as an anchor to keep young people on the road toward great futures, which is what we focus upon each and every day. >> now, the kids in crisis report you all put out has a very alarming statistic, which says that 3 of 10 children will not graduate high school on time. what are some of the major barriers they're facing in order to both get the high school diploma and get it in four years? >> absolutely. one of the spaces we've really focused into that we know is an incredible detriment to on time high school graduation is summer learning loss. every day during the school year roughly 15 million young people come home and don't have a place to go. those young people that are unsupervised, uncared for, and unsupported during the school year, it gets even more dramatic during the summers where 43 million young people are not in a learning-enriched space each and every summer. as a result, what happens in those summers is that many young people lose capacity in math, they lose capacity in literacy. because they're not practicing those skills. what happens is a summer slide. that summer slide then results in often as much as two to three months of learning loss in the areas of math and literacy, which are fundamental. so the slide sends you crashing into the academic year. and you're performing at a lesser level than you were when you left school in the spring. what we know is that over time, by as much, by as early as the fifth grade, many young people are as many as two years behind academically. we believe and it is part of our impact agenda that we can make a difference particularly during the summer. one thing we say is when school is out the clubs are open whether that be during the school year or the summer. in 2013, what we did is we drew a line in the sand and we launched our summer learning loss prevention program. we served about 15,000 students in that program. this past summer we just completed 2014. we served nearly 100,000 young people in our summer learning loss prevention program. what we learned in the pilot data and we still await our continuing data is that there was no loss in the summer learning capacity in terms of math and literacy from the evaluation data we have and what we've also come to see is that there was some strengthening of 21st century leadership skills. strengthening in terms of teamwork, problem solving, terms of the ability to collaborate with others. all the things we know are foundational not only to academic achieve mentbut in terms of being leaders in this country. that is a key place. >> we want to turn to the phone lines now. our first caller is jeff from newark, new york. he is calling on the other line. jeff, go ahead. you're on the air. caller: yes, hi. mr. williams, i'm from dayton, ohio also and i attended the boys club down in wayne avenue and it did a lot for my life. i played basketball down there. currently i'm an educator in new york state. i'm very concerned about -- you talk about education and how to help these kids. i'm very concerned that legislators across the country are not funding public education like it should. i wonder if the boys and girls clubs of america have any sway with legislators to get public education funded like it should. i know in ohio they have charter schools and i think right now they're going through some turmoil. but i think public education is the key and i'd like to get your opinion on that. >> absolutely. well, first off, it being on the line with a fellow daytonian and boys and girls club alum i am glad to be on the line with you and appreciate your question. our vision is that the out of school time space is a highly complementary space to what happens during the school year. we see it as a space where we can really enrich the learning of young people and really strengthen them academically. what we know from the research and the research is clear and i've spent my life as a social scientist is that young people who are involved in expanded learning time environments, the out of school time space, they attend school more often. they get better grades. their behavior shows less of the negatives we know lead to destructive pathways. indeed, they even test better. so for us, it's all about expanding that complementary space to the school year and strengthening the work we do after school abduring the summers. >> next up is dina calling from houston, texas. you're a parent. how many kids do you have? caller: actually a parent and step parent so collectively i have five. this past summer i actually had the opportunity to have my 14-year-old join the boys and girls club. it was my first experience with the program. and she was the one who turned me on to it. we were trying to find something for the summer and she said, hey. let's try, you know, this. and we went and it was probably the most awesome experience she had all summer. brilliant child. it really did give her the opportunity to continue her own interests. so, mr. williams, i just want to commend you. thank you for your very clear and comprehensive overview of the program and the use of the data. it really helps. i'm a nonprofit so i really wanted to commend you for your work and just let you know you did an awesome job. my daughter really valued and appreciated it. thank you. >> well, i tell you, on behalf of the nearly 54,000 youth development professionals across this country, which get up every day and work on behalf of our children, we appreciate hearing that positive story and indeed that's a story we know took place all across this nation. one of the things we really focus into during the summers and during the school years, we want our environments to, number one, be safe. number two, to be fun. three, to be enriching, four, to really, really have the highest expectations for our young people. and, five, we want to recognize and acknowledge young people as they're doing great things. that for us is what it's all about. i appreciate that story. it's a great organization in houston that we have. >> diana is our next caller from college park, maryland. you're also a parent. caller: i am sure am. i'm a single parent at that. i see so many, mr. williams, good morning. i see so many children especially like in urban areas trying to break cycles now. and when i say breaking cycles, i mean, many of our children, particularly in the black community and the latino community, are being run by single parent households. and there is a continuation of a lack of resources, a continuation of these children are sometimes the older children are placed in an adult role for their younger siblings. how do you address that and how do you make it, you know, how do you feel about your program and just making sure that these children have -- are children and they continue their childhood more so than, you know, you got to get your younger brothers and sisters tucked in and make sure they do their home work and if i'm not there by the time you leave for school, get them breakfast and everything like that and then go to school yourself and concentrate on what you're supposed to concentrate on. it is very, very hard. i see some of these kids are struggling with that. how do you address that? >> i appreciate that question and your kwlarification of what a true challenge in our communities is. we see our clubs as being a space where young people can be children, tweens, teens, and come into those spaces and environments and explore their interests. they can explore their passions. they can define purpose and identify pathways and resources to help them get there. they can have fun and just explore life. that's why we believe so deeply in the boys and girls club mission. it allows for young people to be young people and to not all -- all the time be burdened and obligated to some of the responsibilities we know many of our young people carry each and every day. the grit and the resilience that is built by being a care giver are qualities that we know serve young people in the long haul and, for us, what we try to do is focus that in each and every young person that comes to the door helping them to move forward and having a plan for the future which we believe is essential and for so many really building that plan in terms of a clear vision toward post secondary education. whether it be at the community college level or the balk lawyer yet level. >> damon, you said earlier that you estimate the obstacles facing today's youth to cross the country something like $150 cost in the long run. can you break that $150 billion number a little bit? what are the factors contributing to that? >> we've looked at a couple things and worked with economists who assisted us and what we've come to understand is that there is a true burden that comes when young people don't graduate from high school. there is a true burden of childhood obesity. there is a true burden when young people are disassociated youth meaning they don't graduate from high school and also, too, they're not employed. what we know is that the clubs make a difference in terms of keeping young people on the pathway toward great futures, keeping them on a pathway toward academic success and really helping them have an understanding of the habits of mind and body that are going to be absolutely critical in terms of protecting your health over the course of a lifetime. so when we talk about that number it's taking all of those factors into account. some might say it is even a modest number when we look at the true impact of the challenge that we face today. >> all right. now we'll turn to suffolk, virginia, where clifton is calling as a parent. you're on the air. caller: good morning. thank you for receiving my call. there's one thing that i really resent and it's that most people call children kids. a lot of incidents this morning, callers as well as you have spoken of them as kids. i wish you would reframe that and call them children, youth, young people, young adults, anything other than kids. my superintendent at my sunday school wouldn't allow us to call -- he said that's a goat. it's not a human being. >> all right, clifton. we hear you. our next caller is dick from lyndon, michigan, who is calling for all others. caller: yes. thank you so much for this program. you've got it right on. so many people talk about this problem and love to talk about the problem and cause of the problem but never get to solutions. you're talking about solutions and i hope you and i can talk further after this program is over because we're trying to put together a program exactly like you're talking about. we know they lose it in the summer time and we can do a lot with summer programs. we propose to bring them in two days a week, feed them two meals, work them in the garden, on habitat for humanity, set up a shop program, tear down engines, teach them some basic nutrition, and anatomy, and do some basketball, physical activity. those are the things here and we'd surely love to talk with you. >> what organization do you work for? or do you work with? caller: i'm a board member at the senior center in lyndon, michigan. >> okay. caller: we are trying to put together a scholarship program where the seniors can support this. we're not looking for tax dollars. we know where the private sector money is. >> all right. next caller is paul from hemlock, michigan. you're a parent. how many children do you have? caller: four adult children and i have seven grandchildren. but my concern is the children, you can take them to school. you can give them food. they have to go back to the same environment they came from where they have parents that don't give a damn about them. i have a problem with yes there is some social science we can deal with but the children are thrown right back into the same mess they came out of. how do you resolve that? >> damon williams? >> a couple things. we see ourselves as a powerful complement to what we and i refer to as a youth development ecosystem. that means schools, families, other community organizations, faith-based organizations, lots of organizations and lots of different parties are going to have to play a role in terms of strengthening what happens with our young people. when those young people walk through the door the one thing we know is that we want it to be a safe environment. nurturing o be a program and get them involved in programs that can be transformational. there are factors beyond the control of any one organization. for us we really focus into those young people in ensuring we're enriching them in all the ways we can each and every day they come to our doors. we want more members, more often coming into the clubs. because we know ultimately that will make the difference in terms of their outcomes. >> damon williams, you mention you guys are one of the oldest organizations focusing on children and mentoring. how has your strategy changed over time as society has changed, as technology has entered these children's lives. how do you adjust to fit their needs? >> that is a powerful question. i think one of the things that is truly changed is that we've continued to evolve and grow but staying toward our mission of helping young people who need us most. we'll find clubs in 2014 in urban environments. you'll find clubs in rural environments. you'll find clubs on military installations around the world. you'll find clubs on native american lands and territories. you'll also find clubs in public housing. last and definitely not least, you'll find many of our clubs actually in schools and moving toward even tighter integration of the school day and out of school day. that's been a key evolution of our strategy. as we look toward the future, we will be engaging even more and more in the space of digitizing youth development and not only complementing what we do in bricks and mortar when kids walk through the door every day and support it but also how we move forward in terms of embracing the fact that so many of our young people, they're known as digital natives. they live in the digital world. so we're evolving our strategy and will continue to do so to really embrace that as a space for positive youth development where we continue to maintain the highest standards of safety but have a vision toward where we want our young people to go. >> kim is calling from nashville, tennessee. you're a parent. how old and how many children do you have? caller: i have one >> you have one kid. okay. what is your comment today? caller: my comment is it is not about boys and girls clubs but parents coming together. you know what i'm saying? . meless -- the kids need help we can teach our kids to give back. maybe the kids will appreciate and understand there are kids who don't get no allowance, no basketball. you know, to help people. instead of teaching them to play basketball teach them to . to work and help other kids using influence. kids have nobody to talk to. hat's why they have a problem. they need help. >> damon williams? >> you know, each and every day young people that come through our club doors, we get them involved in service activities and really trying to make a difference in their communities locally. it's a key component of what we really embrace and was a major aspect of what we really celebrated this last week. we were in d.c. for the identification of our national youth of the year. each and every year thousands and thousands of kids across the country who are members in our organizations participate in what we believe was one of the world's great youth recognition programs, youth of the year, which celebrates our three priorities of academic achieve ment, good character and citizenship and healthy lifestyles. we identified mariah sullivan a wonderful young woman in central florida, boys and girls club, who is now a first-year student at the university of south florida. mariah is the embody mentof all we hope for in our youth across this nation. she carries north of a 4.4 gpa, is endeavoring toward a career in the health professions. she was captain of her track team, honor student, and deeply involved in service and involved in helping to make a difference and being an empower mentleader in our community and at the end of the day it's the three aspects and qualities which we want all of our youth and couldn't be more of an ha sullivan. mary >> next up from california calling on the line for all others. caller: well, good morning. the point i wanted to make was that the program that i've been involved with, with helping our youth and people that are going to grow up and some day lead our society, involves a specific thing. that is h that they can come into a program with little or no meteorology of what it really -- with little or no knowledge of what it is all about and each one leaves feeling like they have been a uccessful part of a group. i think that is very important because, and studies have shown, there was a study by university of edinboro, some ere in l.a., where the ramifications were recognized by school principals and teachers who said, wait a minute. i notice this group is light years beyond some of the other kids and they're active and participating, etcetera. why is this happening? and they ended up tracing it back to the program that i was involved with. but whatever program it is, whether it's taking kids into the garden, whether it's all the things you've mentioned, it' important that they feel like they are successful at something new. part t i think is a key f whatever program we're doing. a gentleman from michigan mentioned habitat for humanity, which is a great program. how many kids -- excuse me from the other gentleman -- how many of our youth don't understand a lot of what our kids are going through? >> i want to ask you about another statistic that is in the report, which is that three out of ten kids are obese or overweight. again, from your america kids in crisis report. what are you guys doing to address the obesity issue? is this a health care problem? is this a nutrition problem? is it an access problem? how do you tackle it? >> absolutely. you know, one of the things that has always been fundamental to the dna of boys and girls clubs is having an active lifestyle. whether that be getting involved in youth sports, whether that be just hopping into the swimming pool and swimming some laps, whether that be playing a game of dodge ball or kick ball in the field or the yard, that's always been part of the dna of our clubs. if you step into club across america you'll still continue to see that dna. some of the other things we've really been focused on particularly in the last several years with our partners is really focused into helping young people understand the importance of nutrition and really helping them understand the importance of consumption regularly of fruit and vegetables. this is a challenge for many of our young people who grow up candidly in virtual food deserts in many communities where they don't have access to good food, to fresh fruits and vegetables. so one of the things we place an incredible priority on helping young people to understand nutrition and to have a level of nutrition literacy moving forward that will serve them throughout a lifetime, keeping them moving and active and setting a foundation for habits that can last a lifetime and each and every day trying to get young people more often to have the opportunity to consume fresh fruits and vegetables and healthy snacks as a part of their club experience but also as something that that carries into their life once they leave the club each and every day. >> from fort wayne, indiana, calling as a parent. good morning, tim. caller: hi, damon. you mentioned the education of our public schools, our children were rated like 22 out of 28 internationally. the public schools have our kids nine months out of the year. isn't that long enough? i think children need to stop being institutionalized. when i came home from school, got off the bus, i went home to my parents. the problem is, we can't be having the glorified babysitters. since 1996, boys and girls clubs have received $875 million and, like i say, there is no dad, no parents. the single parent business. it's nothing to be proud of. you're being selfish. >> damon williams, your response? >> you know, one of the things we do is we see ourselves as a highly complementary space to what happens during the school year and particularly during the summers and really creating an enriching environment we know makes a difference in the lives of young people over time. we can look across the data and see very powerfully that young people who are involved in our clubs tend to graduate more frequently than young people we compare them to who are not involved. they tend to consume more fruits and vegetables and live a healthier lifestyle than those we compare them to who are not in our club. at the end of the day we go back to our alumni survey and go back to the alumni survey and what the alumni said and 57% said the club helped save their lives. so we stay focused on our mission to serve youth every day particularly those who need us most and to really do anything and everything we can to help our young people be on a pathway toward a great future. >> next up is elaine calling from clear water, florida. you're a parent. how um children do you have? caller: four. >> how old are they? caller: they're in their 50's and 40's >> okay. grown children. what is your question today? caller: it's not a question. i want to tell you that 68 years ago, my youngest brother was pingpong champion of the boys clubs of america. it was only boys back then. we were allowed but i was a little girl and i was allowed to go to the boys club movies on friday night. i think if it wasn't for the boys club my two brothers would have been probably a lot of trouble. but they hung out in the boys clubs all the time and turned out to be great guys. >> all right. next up is ron from pennsylvania. also calling as a parent. caller: yes. i'm a little late in the program right now but i don't know if this was touched on. a lot of this stuff with the kids are the parents. nowadays you see the parents, in my generation, or buddies with their kids. there is no real authority figure in the family. they have their friends over drinking beers or what not and there's the parent right along with them, you know? i don't think that's the right thing. it's not teaching the kid anything. >> damon williams, how do you straddle the line between being a comforting presence in these children's lives but also being an authority figure? >> you know, we really focus into the work, when young people walk in the door we want to set a certain type of value system for them and set a certain expectation level of how we think behavior should manifest itself in terms of character, in terms of ethical decision making, in terms of being caring and nurturing and supporting and understanding the needs of others and being able to look at the world through multiple perspectives. that all wraps up into our character development work we do with the clubs and young people. we do that again just in the general environment but also through our targeted programs that we have. programs like smart moves, programs like passport to manhood. programs like smart girls which really hope to empower young people to make great decisions in their lives. that's the space that we can really play in. that's the space we know that we can make a difference in. that's the space we do each and every day across our 4100 clubs. >> i think we have time for one last caller. pal will be betty from meto, florida. also a parent. caller: yes i am a parent. i -- we had boys clubs with my children growing up. they weren't allowed to go, all white. that's the part i didn't understand. two kids have been educated. i have five boys and two girls. i have twin boys. they couldn't go to the boys and girls club. so i had to take my grandchildren, four of them. they started the boys and girls club. the girls could go. so the oldest granddaughter played basketball the whole time and she went on to the university of florida. now she got her masters and she is in pennsylvania. the boys club i always say, helped my grandchildren. they didn't help my boys but helped my grandchildren to have a place to go. and i been writing the governor and everybody trying to get the boys club out here but they won't do it. we need a boys and girls club so bad out here. we don't have nothing. >> damon williams, final word? >> the thing we say is that great futures start each and every day in our clubs. and this year we launched our great futures impact plan for america's youth. those of you who tuned in had a chance to hear about that from me but i encourage you to go to great futures.org. i encourage you to learn more, get involved locally at volunteers given the treasure of your time and given the treasure of any resource that you might give because america's youth need it so much. we appreciate all of you who are partners and thank you for the opportunity to be here today. >> thank you for joining us. that is damon williams from the boys and girls clubs of america. discussing the challenges facing today's youth and some of the solutions to their problems as well. thanks again. >> thank you. >> on the next "washington journal" thomas litman of the middle east institute talks about the u.s. effort to form a coalition of arab states to fight against isis. bloomberg news reporter alex wayne details a new report by the cdc on reducing the number of uninsured americans. then we'll talk with local reporters about some of the mid-term elections in arkansas, pennsylvania, and kentucky. and as always, we'll take your phone calls and you can join the conversation on facebook and twitter. "washington journal" live at theext, a debate between candidates running for iowa governor. after that, president obama the medal of honor to two vietnam veterans. talks -- kener ken ken burns talks about his new documentary on the roosevelts. now, the iowa governors debate between terry branstad and his democratic challenger jack hatch. branstad is iowa's longest serving governor. 1999.ved from 1983 to then was reelected to another term in 2011. -- currently anumb iowa state senator with 22 years iowa house and senate. cook political report has this race listed as likely republican. this is about an hour. >> good evening, and welcome to burlington, iowa. i'm gary with kwqc. marks the second of three debates in the race for iowa governor. we are happy to bring it to you with our partners, the burlington hawkeye newspapers and the greater burlington partnership. for the next hour, terry hatch, hisd jack democrat challenger, will answer panelists.rom our let's introduce them, kenneth, danielle, and the managing hawkeye, dale. we'll also be getting some questions, from you, our viewers and readers, through twitter and facebook live throughout this program. use the hashtag #iowagovernordebate. please welcome terry branstad and jack hatch. >> the overall theme, if you will, continue is on the economy, from jobs to job creation to infrastructure. jobs.rst topic will be on in this, we will talk about job likeion, tax incentives, those used to build the fertilizer plant that's being built right now not far from wage.and the minimum but we begin with jobs. job creation and sustainment is very big political promise and point of contention candidates running for office. danielle begins our discussion a jobs, specifically with question for senator hatch. 4.4%,ator hatch, at iowa's unemployment rate is even lower than the national average. iowa'suld you do to make job climate even better? and we'll get to the governor's in just a moment. >> we're very fortunate in this state, as in every state, to have recovery after the 2008-2009 recession. and every state is increasing their employment record. we're glad that iowa has the it's ever had before. the other states in this country. and unemployment is going low, and that's as well an accomplishment for all of us. but what we need in the next governor must lead iowa to the next generation of jobs. be an explosion of economic opportunity. but to get there, we have to do different. build the economy from the community up. not from the top down. plan is to have an economic development authority, not one to cover the whole state, but regionally, four of them, so district willonal be able to match the state's with national priorities that will be funded by our congress persons and also the local communities have spent so much time and effort, like davenport and burlington, to be able to create jobs on their own. who knows jobs the best but the authorities, the city councils? they know where the jobs are. the communities are that need it. they noa know -- know what theye do to get those jobs to become a reality in their community. state government is going to be provide refreshing new dollars instead of one agency getting it. be disbursed to four economic development authorities with their own board of directors, appointed by the governor, to sit for three years. they will create the thertunities and identify match between our state investment and the local priorities. >> senator, thank you. governor branstad, 45 seconds rebuttal. >> well, first of all, obviously my opponent doesn't know what's going on in illinois, because have the second-highest employment -- unemployment in the nation. iowa's has dropped by nearly in debtinois is mired and has the second-highest unemployment in the nation. i'm really proud that we've created over 150,000 jobs in the last three years and eight months. we've gone from the highest unemployment in 25 years to of peopleecord number employed. that doesn't happen by accident. we've got a great economic thatopment authority partners with the locals. the fertilizer plant happened county the people in lee partnered with the state and made that possible. we see those that great jobs in iowa. >> and we'll be talking more about the fertilizer plant in moment. would you care to rebut for 30 seconds? >> yes. it's important for us to understand these numbers. the governor talks about 150,000 new jobs that he has created. a fifth know, even grader knows you have to subtract what you've lost. 80,000 jobs were lost in this economy, giving a really 75,000 orin of about 80,000. that's how we identify jobs. knowe private sector, we that government doesn't create jobs. businesses do. governors don't create small businesses. entrepreneurs do. create a base of entrepreneurs in this state that will be able to meet the demands the needs of our communities. >> thank you, senator. keep on path,to we'll try to keep as close as we can -- i'll give a reminder as to the length of time. it's harder to keep track of, i know, from back here. our best.do our second question now, still on the question of jobs. >> yes, governor. to go a little bit more into detail about your promise 2010 about creating 200,000 jobs in five years. increasing iowans' personal income by 25%. hatch has accused you of cooking the books on this. all right. us where weto tell were at that point, where we are now, and how you think you've those promises, talking about adding and subtracting? to where weink back were four years ago. the unemployment rate here in southeast iowa was the highest in the entire state. and we had an unemployment rate 6%.owa well over we've reduced that by over 30% 40% here. nearly i was just last week down at the fertilizer plant. 1900 construction jobs there. they're going to add another 400. goingrmanent jobs are now to be 240. but there's also another right here in burlington that share foods is going to be investing $35 million and adding 80-some jobs. every day to bring more good jobs to the state of iowa. i'm proud of the fact we work in localrship with the governments and with the local economic development people and economic development authority, debbie durham, has done a great job. i think it would be a big mistake to divide the state into four regions. wouldn't have as much resources. i'm really proud of what we have accomplished. but we're not done. we're going to continue to focus on how we can prepare the the jobs of the future, because the lieutenant governor and i hear from butness we have good jobs can't find people with the right skills. iowa andere skilled investments in s.t.e.m., science, technology, engineering and mathematics, prepare them i'm reallyobs, and proud of the fact that today the ismployment tax rate in iowa going to go down again in january for the fourth year in a row. morealso makes iowa excessive for business -- businesses and jobs. >> senator, 45 seconds. >> thank you. that the top-down approach that governor branstad following where des moines picks winners and loses is the wrong approach to from an we're recovering recession. our proposal is from the community up. thatroposal is to ensure local communities, state coalitions, city councils, boards of supervisors, have a chance to identify and empower their communities to get engaged and to value their own dollars and to be able to have a to leverage local dollars with state dollars. tohink it's wrong to be able say it's only going to be des moines that's going to make those decisions. that's the wrong direction. we're going to have a direction of going from the community up. >> now let's move to the big have, but the both of you alluded to, regarding tax incentives. incentives are used more and more for job creation and generating revenue by many states. tax incentives, tax breaks, the fertilizer plant being built $1.6 billion area, plant being built here. $100 million in tax breaks used to land this deal and to build the plant was too much. the first question here regarding tax questions for the governor, dale allison, whose has done a considerable job of reporting on this very subject. governor. regarding the negotiations to land the plant, property owners the immediate vicinity aren't quite -- don't share your it.usiasm with negotiations were done out of the purview of the general public. and, you know, not only was the property negotiated but a of taxes andeu other considerations, including water rights. was announced, iowa fertilizer upped its demand from 480 millions 3.3 billionally to gallons. how is this good public policy everyday working iowans and you address the charge that this deal was crammed down wever?idents of >> , first of all, it was initiated by the people, the supervisors and they provided incentives. but the thing you need to net result ishe the fort madison school district and lee county are going to get of 2.9 million additional tax revenue every year. iowa is also of going to gain revenue. if it had not located here, we get those additional tax revenues and we wouldn't have the 1900 construction jobs, the 400 more that are going to be added, nor would we have the wouldent jobs, nor farmers benefit from the $740 reduction in nitrogen fertilizer costs. significant, because that is the biggest cost of raising corn today, is nitrogen fertilizer. most of it is being imported. and the big cost is all the transportation costs to bring it in from overseas here to this in theoducing area midwest. so this was a good deal. in fact, the site selection magazine, read by economic developers around the world, said this was the second-best development deal in the entire world last year. it.e very proud of and the ceo of the company recently said that they're just up.ing warmed when they complete this, they're looking at expanding it. were tennly -- there fertilizer plants being looked at. only three of them being built, and two of them in iowa, and we're really proud they're being built here, where the corn is produced. >> senator hatch, 45 seconds. >> thank you. let me be clear. i'm in favor of fertilizer will help engage and expand our agricultural base. favor ofery much in the jobs it has created. what i've been critical of is -- deal that the governor negotiated. it was a reckless deal. it is a bad deal. a terrible deal, where he $110 millionngage 165tate money to create jobs. 700,000 --al to job.000 per governor, in the seamen manufacturing plant, gave money to them to build wind blades. for 240 jobs, that equaled $7,000 per job. governor, in the seamen job.acturing $7,000 per job, $700,000 per job. there's an imbalance. that's what we're up against. a bad deal. that is what is causing the problem. imagine whatust this area could do, if we were able to balance those two us tosses and allow spread the investment from the state to more businesses and to areas than just lee county. >> governor, 30 seconds. >> well, you can't be against and for the jobs.. without the incentives, we wouldn't have gotten the jobs. debbie durham is a very skilled negotiator. for 15 years, she did a great job up in sioux city. that's why i asked her to be the economic development authority. she worked with the local people here. and actually, it looks like this going to continue to grow beyond what was initially planned. the net revenue gained -- we didn't write out a check. credit against a taxes in future years. frankly, the state is going to fort madisonw the school district in lee county gained substantially. this was a great deal. on this samentinue subject with the next two questions. so for the next question, let's who has aelle, question for senator hatch. >> senator hatch, if you're elected, what's your plan to any business that does receive a state tax incentive is held accountable job creation, contributing to the overall economy, and also also explain how you have used tax incentives in your own private investments? >> absolutely. the one important thing that you maketo do as a governor, sure that there's transparency, accountability and responsibility. ans is another good area, example, in which governor branstad did not use any of those three guidance or principles in negotiating a deal. the citizens of iowa want to know what's going on. you've got to be open, transparent, and that's how you can ensure that negotiations with a company will be honored in the deal. they are already changing the deal. gonna change the deal more. and it's going to hurt our our local folks, our water and the entire ability of to share other tax credits. now, the governor has been criminal of my business -- critical of my business. des moines register spent over six weeks investigating his claims of a conflict of interest and that i'm spending so much state money and not giving anything back in return. kind ofeally disturbing. roberts,nd i, sonia opened up our entire business. no privately held company would this to happen. claims by thee governor prompted us to do this. what did they find? that we followed the rules. was no conflict of interest. kcrg also had a fact check. what did they find? claims thaternor's our misuse of tax credits was false, that we did things right, an appropriate company and we're a good company. and it's strange that a republican governor would be blaming a good businessman for having a good and honest business. wrong.just and it shouldn't be happening. >> governor, 45 seconds. people of trust the iowa and i have disclosed 4 of myof my -- 24 years taxes and if he wants to disprove our claim that he has gained substantially and made millions of dollars at the expense, i would challenge senator hatch to -- to years of hismore taxes. i'm willing to do another four, i the previous four before came back as governor, if he's willing to do that. i believe that we need to be open and transparent and i'm telling you we have been. the people in lee county know that. and we have worked with them. and we're very proud of the fact partnered with lee county to bring this great project here and bring these iowa.obs to southeast >> senator, would you like 30 seconds here? >> i think what's important is us to understand, in my business with my wife, that we in areasax credits that no other developer would go in. housing.affordable des moinesst 21, the register wrote an editorial that said our use of tax credits was appropriate. the governor's use of negotiating with one of the profitable most egyptian companies in that nation was questionable. so we're providing a public good, by providing housing for low-income iowans. he's providing additional dollars to one of the most profitable corporations in the world. to a socialve on media question. our first of the night. this is for the governor. johnny writes, since the governor brags about the deal in bringing the fertilizer plant to which was a good thing -- i'm quoting here -- increasing the workforce and putting a lot work with this deal, how many of those jobs actually went to iowans? of those i have met say wever, iowa, it's out of town contractors bringing their them.rce with >> first of all, it's brought a lot of jobs to the area. iowans.e been filled by and there have been some that have come in from other areas as well. for the been also great economy, here in burlington and fort madison, wever, the entire area. i'm really proud of the fact that we have that. passed this year for more opportunity for people to learn while they earn. apprenticeships. and we're working, because there's a need for more people in the construction industry -- the construction industry during the previous administration, during the recession. that.now rebuilding and we have a great opportunity. we tripled the funding, the funding for apprenticeships. that way people don't have to go into debt. they can earn while they learn in construction and manufacturing. say we work with building and construction trades and we worked with the contractors. and we got that legislation this year. and it's now in the process of being implemented in helping people for those jobs in the construction industry, the fertilizer plant, and others being created all over the state of iowa. jobs up inhere's fort dodge, up in woodbury county, all over the state, so this isn't the only project. but this is the biggest and one of the best. thats a follow-up to question, were there not enough skilled iowans to do these jobs? enough.here weren't that's the reason why we need apprenticeships, to train more skilled jobs.se you can talk to the building and construction tradespeople. they'll tell you they need more people with skills. and we're working hand in hand people so wetrain have more iowans with those building and construction trades jobs. good careers. and we want to have more of them in iowa. seconds.r hatch, 45 >> thank you. we're talking about the possibility over the next four years of an economic opportunity explosion in jobs. if we'ren't do it going to put all of our eggs in the basket of large corporations projects. then you will have an inability the workers to do the job in the construction. focus on isoing to on small business. on small business, i want to to southeast iowa's vision, when tom brought in anheuser-busch, when he widened highway 34 and he created and developed the avenue of the saints. that's what's going to create the opportunities in southeast and all over the state, by our ability to focus on job opportunities for small businesses in this state. >> let's move now on to the of minimum wage. danielle has a question for senator hatch. >> senator hatch, in your you talk about growing small businesses and also increasing the minimum wage. the small business owners we've heard from say they're worried about how an minimum wagehe would affect their business. how can you be in favor of both? >> well, you know, good question. [laughter] allyou're assuming that small businesses pay below the minimum wage, which is wrong. 216,000w, there are iowans that get less than the we are proposing. that's not high wages. allows an individual working 40 hours a week, works works hard, works every day, to get just above the poverty. no iowan should be able to work and not get the wages necessary to lift their lives the level of poverty. that's my value. believe in sot i much, that we had no problem acommending that wage of minimum wage. and it would lift 216,000 possibly 20% of them, off of general assistance. not thesinesses are type of businesses that pay cheap. businesses, like my wife and i, pay very well. they're all over the state. we can't be afraid of that kind of wage. ofknow that from other types proposals, and when we raise the minimum wage before, and which signed, there was no outcry from the small businesses that they were losing losing opportunities. just the opposite. people got that money. they spent it in their communities. they were able to get off of general welfare. they were no longer part of that anti-poverty program. >> governor, 45 seconds. >> well, if the minimum wage was when theant, why, minimum wage bill was assigned to the committee that senator on, was it killed by the democrats who controlled that committee? they didn't even bring the bill out of committee. it shouldn't -- it couldn't have been that big a priority. i reserve judgment until i see where a bill ends up. it's gotta pass the house and the senate in the same form. in this case, the minimum wage did -- was not even approved by the democratic-controlled senate, house.ne the republican my focus is on trying to bring helpjobs to iowans and to people get the skills so they can have a living wage and be themselves and their families. we work at that every day. workforcesing on development and economic development and coordinating them. is thetor hatch, if that case with the blockage in the legislature, how do we fix this? >> well, you know, harry truman in thepublicans believe minimum wage, as minimum as possible. [laughter] that bill come through, senator courtney, your senator here, was the chair of subcommittee. there were negotiations all year. and during the legislative session, whether or not the house would pick it up. the house said no. we went to the governor's office. governor,help us, dislodge the disagreements in your own caucuses? no, he wouldn't. that's not leadership. they had no intention. so our majority leader said, you know what? this is a political year. we're not gonna put our members in the way of being criticized a political year and then have workers who are trying to lift themselves out of poverty become the political ping-pong during an election process. we are very sensitive about that. passed it without a problem. the fact is, it would have been stopped. and it was stopped by the governor.s and by the continue thate'll with this from social media. 40-plus hoursork a week in construction with three kids and a wife that's a cna. and we still live paycheck to paycheck. is that right and is there any way that will change? >> that's the reason why we're bringing 40-plus hours a week in construction with these jobs at the iowa fertilizer plant. it pays very well. and we're working to try to more of those kind of jobs in the state of iowa, companies like g.e., here in burlington, they provide good wages. companies like cargill and c.j., which we brought to the fort area. - --ciences, iowa home-groan home-grown businesses have all been expanding. we're working every day to try to do that. make sure people have the skills for those jobs. that's why we started with the bill, the skilled iowa program, why the lieutenant governor has led the efforts for s.t.e.m., science, technology, engineering and mathematics, and we're working with every high state andthe community colleges to train the jobs of the require knowledge in science, technology, engineering and mathematics, and we want to make sure the workforce of the future in iowa has those skills. i'm going to continue to work on that every day. recently proposed a center for human capital which would coordinate what we're doing in economic development with our workforce development so that we the workforce with the skills for those jobs that can incomes and better provide for their families and to the economic well-being f our state -- of our state. >> senator hatch, in the 45 ournds we have remaining in first half hour, your reaction to that. >> well, it's interesting, the governor said he would like to he's done.hat the state doesn't have enough than just onere orscon's model. and the fact is we need to be what our friend said in his question as an opportunity to understand that middle class iowa family to paycheck.ycheck they're being taxed too much. and we may talk about this later. but we had proposed a middle class tax cut, where every family under $220,000 would get. they're being taxed too much. and because we're working on productive ti, and children are the values of our proposal. ups that if you have to live paycheck to paycheck, the state responsibility to invest in our communities and our small the biges, not undeserving corporations like we have. >> and we will continue regarding property taxes, accountability and leadership, much more still to come in our gubernatorial debate. >> we continue our conversation now with the focus on accountability and leadership. weoughout the campaigns, have seen on television and on airwaves, radio and newspapers as well, senator hatch has have. >> and we will continue regarding property taxes, accountability and leadership, accused the branstad administration of being scandal ridden, settlements of state employees. now is our chance to discuss this matter in particular. we begin with dale who has a question for senator hatch. likenator, iowans clearly their governor. they keep reelecting him time widertime, by wider and margins. yet instead of telling iowans lead the state, your advertisements and press statements focus on criticisms. that iowans don't get it? >> what i'm saying is that iowans need to listen to the problems that this governor has over the past four years. it is the most scandal ridden administration in the history of state and it's beginning offices development that he closed, that the iowa supreme court said was unconstitutional. then the iowa juvenile home he closed and the district court said governor, that's unconstitutional. then it was the settlements and changes of merit employees. to of them were moved over political over to political positions including administrative law judge. meaning that they no longer had qualifications but could be fired for any reason. right under the direction of the governor's office. and then you had the secret settlements to fire employees have been there before and then hush money to keep them quiet. then the black list of do not hires that now there's a class action suit against the governor on people's names that should not have been on there. firing of top aides. and the d.c.i. agent that reported the governor's vehicle for speeding doing a hard 90 on route 20. he was fired for reporting that. and then of course was the commissioner godfrey's position. where he was asked -- the governor asked him to resign. he wouldn't. and then commissioner godfrey who just left for an impressive position in washington sued the governor for defamation of character. that is not leadership. that's not something iowa wants. that's not something that iowa values have. it should very well be looked at. and there are now investigations of the senate and the courts to look at how governor branstad has been managing the state. >> governor branstad. 45 seconds. >> well, iowans know me. they know that i go to he have county every year. i have a press conference every week. they know i'm honest. i'm straightforward. i'm transparent. i've released all my taxes. they know these attacks are false. they are not correct. and the people of iowa know that. and i trust the people of iowa. i have nothing to hide. i'm very proud. fact when we found out about confidentiality agreements, i signed an executive order to prevent them in the future. senator hatch and his friends in the senate killed that bill, which would have made it available to the public to know what's in those personnel records and why people have either been dismissed or not hired. i want honest, open, clean government. i'm committed and the house passed that by an overwhelming bipartisan margin. the senator and his friends killed it. >> 30 seconds, senator. >> sure. the fact is iowans don't know what's going on. and if you look at his ads that are attacking me, you would think that i'm the one that's under investigation in the statehouse. but that's not the case. governor's ads are false. don't take my word for it. "des moines register" and their series of articles understood that i had done nothing wrong and they said that i followed the rules. and kcrg did a fact check and again, they said nothing was right in his advertisements. that his advertisements were all false. ladies and gentlemen, and governor, i would like to ask that you take the key from one of your political heroes. ronald reagan. and he said, and i keep it to you, you stop lying about me, and i'll stop telling the truth about you. [applause] >> an opportunity to also answer that if you choose. governor, social media question. twitter. why postpone deposition if charges are true? why didn't you want that information out there? >> well, first of all, this lawsuit was filed about three years ago. it's been delayed by the plaintiffs on many times. we're in the midst of a campaign. i have a very busy schedule. and that's -- we have agreed upon the date for the deposition. like i said, we've got nothing to hide. first of all, i treat everybody with respect and dignity. i don't make these outlandish attacks. everything that's in our ad has been documented. it is true that he killed a bill that would have reduced the fees for the kind of tax credits and also true that he's made millions of dollars off of tax credits. he may complain about the tax credits that have created good jobs here in southeast iowa. but he has no complaints about that. nor will he release the tax returns to show the people of iowa how much money he made and what kind of tax breaks he got. >> senator hatch, let's talk about this because this is a lot of information for the voters to go through. one side having one big issue and another bringing up other issues. let's talk about whether the politics in play regarding the -- some of the lawsuits against the governor right now and some of the accusations you face. >> sure. the fact is i'm only repeating -- not accusations, but lawsuits, investigations. even the state auditor said that the governor had mishandled the investigation of the secret settlements, that there were more secret settlements even after the governor and his staff said there weren't. if you're going to be a leader, you need to be a governor who's going to be open and transparent. and it's just unacceptable that the governor stands in front of us that he's open and transparent and has nothing to hide when that's all they've been doing. is hiding and not just an attack of a candidate. but the accusations come from legitimate sources of the legislature. the state auditor's office. from the courts. and from individuals who have taken the time to sue him personally and his office. these are not the actions of a governor who can lead. >> governor, would you care for 30 seconds? >> this is iowa, not illinois. most of the former governors in illinois are in prison. i'm back in office because the people of iowa trust me. they know me. they know i'm honest. [applause] and i have been totally open and transparent. and i have a press conference every week. and i take the tough questions from the press. and anybody can file a lawsuit. but i can tell you we worked with the auditor. there was one agreement that was agreed upon before i signed the executive order and was signed later and when it was discovered that was the case, it was changed. they eliminated the confidentiality clause in that. that has been enforced. i will continue to enforce it. but we want to extend it to local governments and to the legislature and the house passed it with an overwhelming bipartisan vote. and my opponent and his friends in the senate killed it. because they don't want the public to know the truth about what's in those confidential files on employee personnel. i think the people of iowa deserve to know that because it's their tax money that's paying it. >> and as i give you 30 seconds on this, because i think this is such an important issue, i will remind our audience, please, do not applaud until the end of our debate so we can continue moving forward. senator hatch. >> gary and the audience, it's really important for us to understand that these accusations could go back and forth. it's not something we've made up. the republican governors' association and the governor have spent millions of dollars attacking me on tv. on accusations that are untrue. and he's expanding his search to find something more. i'm very proud of my company with my wife. we spent a lot of time being successful. and the fact is we did not kill a bill that would lower the amount that develop coerce receive and in actuality if you read "the des moines register" story, governor, you would see that what they said is that my developer fee was actually less than 10%. it was 9.2%. and that bill had no support with anybody else. and it wasn't dead. it wasn't taken up. this is the kind of leadership you would expect from a governor of illinois. not the governor of iowa. >> this is also a subject matter that can be intertwined with the following questions so let's move to property taxes now. for a question for governor bran stand from dale. >> sure. governor, last week, we published a story looking at property tax reform and how it looks to be working against smaller low growth communities. in fact, in the story, the state was accused of institutionalizing devaluation. apartment complexes, for example, have been taxed at 100% of their value. they're on their way to being taxed like residential rates. retail and industrial properties are also headed lower. somebody must pay for the cost of government. if taxes are being lowered for the upper values, the burden must fall on someone. do you know how this is going to shake out? do you know how this will work out for slow growth communities like burlington which are kind of more the rule rather than the exception? and how can you assure ordinary iowans that they won't be asked to shoulder an even bigger burden? >> well, thank you for asking that question. because this has been a problem that has faced the state of iowa for 30 years. multiple residential properties should have never been taxed as commercial. and that is being corrected. that was actually something that senate democrats wanted. i wanted to provide permanent tax relief for commercial industrial property. and the agreement we reached between the house and senate and the governor does all of that and by getting the state's financial house in order, putting together a five-year projected budget, and the state providing the money to replace the commercial-industrial property tax is going to provide tax relief to businesses, small and large, across the state of iowa in communities of all sizes. it will especially help slow growth communities and rural communities because the property tax credit is significant. it also benefits for economic development commercial development in our state as well. and the state is providing the money to replace the local property taxes. and i insisted that we put that money in a standing appropriation so the legislature couldn't renege on that commitment. >> senator hatch, 45 seconds. >> the commercial-industrial property tax bill that was passed as the governor said with his insistence did nothing for residential property tax receivers. and his priority was to reduce corporate taxes, not residential. if it wasn't for the senate democrats who he is so openly criticized now, that provision of allowing commercial property tax for small businesses and property depressed areas would never have seen the light of day. and so we came to a conclusion. i think there's going to be issues in the future about how the state will be able to fund all of those property tax reliefs. but it didn't help the middle class. it did not help the residential property tax owners. and it certainly gave a boone to the largest out of state corporate leaders that are taking more taxes away and out of this state. >> governor, would you care to respond? >> i would just point out that this was passed with bipartisan support in both houses of the iowa legislature. it was long overdue. our commercial property taxes were the third highest behind minnesota and illinois. we don't want to be there. this is going to make a difference. and it's going to be the most significant property tax cut in iowa history. and it's going to be phased in over a period of time. and we have the resources to do it. and i've protected it because we've cut the size and cost of government. so we can afford to fund the education, leadership bill that we passed for teacher leadership and property tax relief. >> senator hatch, you'll probably get a chance to respond to that if will you in this next question from danielle. regarding property taxes. >> senator hatch, your campaign website says your proposed income tax cut for middle income families would cost the state about an estimated $300 million a year. over the next couple of years. at a time when you say we need to fund our schools and our infrastructure needs, vital and immediate investment, why would that be the best use of that money? >> the best use of that money for middle class iowans, you're right. it's the best use for that money. iowans who are in the middle class working every day, 40 hours, 50 hours a week, need a break. middle class iowans need that kind of help. we are the sixth highest state with dual income families. we are a low wage state. and we are a state that values children. so when our property tax relief, we identified families that have dual incomes. and we gave them a $1,000 tax credit. because we value the productivity of the state. and we also valued the children. and i think governor bran stand and almost every politician will say they are our greatest resource that is need protection. so right now we give them a $40 tax credit. they're valued a lot more than that. under my proposal, we give them a $500 tax credit. when you put them together it provides us with a very strong middle class tax cut. that will help the people that need it the most. not these corporations. but people need that. to answer your question on the budget, it is a priority. the budget is a priority. someone once said you could tell me all you want about your values. but show me your budget. then i'll tell you what your values are. this would be a high priority of our administration. >> do you believe that the legislature would pass such a plan and why? >> well, i think the legislature will engage in this discussion. i can't guarantee anything. but i know that the democratic caucus in the house and senate believe very proudly and very clearly that middle class has got to get a break. that middle class iowans can't be left out in the cold. they were under the governor's commercial property tax relief. that's the largest property tax relief in history. but it wasn't for the residential taxpayers, it was for the corporate taxpayers. i want to give residential middle america the everyday iowan the tax break they deserve. equal to the tax break he gave. to the corporations of this state. >> thank you, senator. governor, your response. >> well, first of all, eliminating federal deductibility will raise taxes for some low income people, too. because if your income varies from year to year, you won't be able to able to deduct your federal taxes. the bill that we passed, the property tax relief, isn't just for corporations. it's to all commercial and industrial property including all the main street businesses in burlington and fort madison and all over the state of iowa. and people have gotten those tax bills and they can see there's real significant tax relief for individual iowans that own commercial property. i've heard from them. all over this state. and they're saying thank you. finally we got some real tax relief. and i'm proud that we did that. and that's going to continue next year. and we want it to continue in the future. if you instead going out and spend that money on another program, then we won't be able to do that. and the education money that's committed also for teacher leadership. >> 30 seconds, senator. >> being a governor means that you set priorities and that you lead. the governor just said he wanted to provide the commercial and industrial property tax relief for commercial businesses in this state. i want to provide property tax relief and the middle class tax cut for the residents of this state. for the citizens of this state. for the everyday iowans of this state that need a tax cut. my priorities will always be with the middle class. corporations, which we are one, we're good at what we do. we'll figure out a way. and we'll be able to continue to provide the jobs that are necessary, but i want middle class iowa to get the support they need. >> with just under 10 minutes remaining in our debate let's try to squeeze another category in if we can. regarding gas tax, infrastructure, roads, bridges, the question is for the governor from dale. >> time's going by quickly. >> i like it when you're having fun. >> you're a pay as you go guy. but the state needs money, too, to improve its infrastructure. you're administrator of the department of transportation says there's not enough money to maintain the network that we have. local coalitions have lobbied you for some time to widen u.s. 61. between burlington and muscatine county and that's more important with all the traffic coming from the fertilizer plant. lawmakers told in us january that there was support for an increase in the gas tax. if you would have indicated your support, but without such an indication, nobody was prepared to propose a tax that might get vetoed. during the state fair debate, you said you were working on a transportation funding plan. but we're not prepared to reveal it. why not? why the wait? >> paul trobini has put together a series of options and i've been discussing that with legislators for the last several months of how we can go to a hybrid system that would replace the gas tax partially with an excise tax on fuel. like you have with the sales tax and also increased fees for heavier loads that go across the state of iowa. i would also compliment paul trobini when we had that flood in 2011 on the missouri river, he was able to put together a strategy to rebuild all of those roads even though we only had 60 days to do it. we rebuilt all those roads and got the federal funds reimbursement to pay for all of that. he also we've had the two biggest road building years in history. the last two years. because he's reduced administrative costs by $50 million. i'm continuing to work with him. i intend to work with a bipartisan group of legislators as we did the last time we addressed this issue back in 1988. and we got a majority of both house and senate republicans and democrats to agree to do this. and i will lead but i want to make sure that we have a majority of both parties, both caucuses, supporting it. >> senator, if you can, for time constraints, 30 seconds, please. >> you can't lead with legislators unless you have a proposal. i've offered a proposal for over two years. 10 cent gas tax. two cents a year for the next five years. not only is highway 61 needing a four lanes, but highway 20 up in fort dodge to sioux city. there are areas there that need four lanes. plus the bridges in this state. we have the second worst state in bridge repair in the country. we cannot have a repair of our county roads and our state roads if we don't have revenue. jackson county said they are just now reducing the tonnage of 44 bridges in jackson county. from 10 tons to three. you can get a van with children on that three ton bridge. but you can't get emergency vehicles. you can't get ambulances. you can't get the fire trucks. you can't get the farm implements. the combines and the trucks that need to pass and to provide commerce for power farmers. this is a crisis. and for the governor not to recognize it, to have a cash force that he doesn't liston and waiting for the special interests to say you can do it now is not the leadership we want. we need a leader to take the lead. >> it is time for us now to get to our closing statements. the order is determined by the coin flip. senator hatch, you are first. >> thank you. gary, i thank you very much. for kwqc to be a sponsor, the chamber of commerce and the hawkeye. i commend the two panelists and yourselves for providing this for this opportunity. and also i want to acknowledge my wife, sonya roberts, and my running mate, monica vernon, in the audience. and if i could give a quick shoutout to my daughter in anchorage, alaska, who's an nbc affiliate reporter and weekend anchor. so for danielle, she's -- i'm as proud of her as i'm sure your parents are of you. but being governor means that we have to lead our state into a new area of economic explosion. i want to return iowa to the tom vilsack iowa where we focused not only on agriculture insurance but we diversified this economy to finance information technology and advanced manufacturing. in iowa where we are not picking winners and losers but create regional authorities we can rely on local leaders to match the priorities of our local and our county leaders. to do this, we need to reorganize an economic development effort into four regions. equal to the congressional districts. establish regional boards of directors. and provide leadership, locally. and i will announce and tonight that my running mate, monica vernon, will take the lead being a city council person, she knows how to bring people together. she's done that. and she's a leader in the community. local business leaders know what they need. and we'll rely on their advice. we need a community of economic development proposal. not a top down. we need local people picking what they want to invest in, not winners and losers from a board in des moines. thank you very much. >> governor branstad. >> first of all, i want to thank the greater burlington partnership, kwqc, burlington hawkeye, and all of you in the audience for being here and for sponsoring this. and great to have this debate at the first territorial capital of iowa in burlington. i'm really proud to be here. my mother was born here. i'm proud to have my wife and a lot of members of my family, my stepmother here. and i also want to say i love this state. i grew up on a farm. i learned to work hard at a very early age. and i worked every day, the lieutenant governor kim reynolds and i go all over this state. we go to every county every year. we work hard every day to bring more good jobs to iowa. to make iowa the best in the nation in terms of education, to reduce the tax and regulatory burden. we've reduced the size of government by over 1,400 and we're not done yet. we're focused on things like college affordability and reducing student debt. two years, no increase in resident state tuition. and we're going to do more. to reduce that and make college more affordable, we've proposed a center for human capital enrichment. and connect every acre so that we have high speed internet everywhere in iowa. i would appreciate having your vote of confidence, your support, and the opportunity to work hard for you for the next four years. i love iowa. and i'm proud to have the opportunity to serve you. and i would appreciate your vote. thank you very much. >> gentlemen, thank you. [applause] the conversation continues at your next debate. but that is all the time we have for tonight. we would like to thatching our candidates, senator jack hatch and governor terry branstad. let's give them a round of applause. [applause] watch us at kwqc.com and on hawkeye.com. thank you for watching tonight. [captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2014] [captioning performed by national captioning institute] >> now here's a look at a couple of campaign ads from the governor's race in iowa. >> four years ago, 114,000 iowans were out of work. terry branstad came back. jobs.0 new governor branstad is just getting started. iowa is back. terry branstad is building i was future. >> he is honest, compassionate, a visionary. he is always looking forward. where can we go next? to do better, bring jobs to the economy. and we see that. the jobs today, young people moving back. more iowans are working today than at any other time in our state history. i am really optimistic about the future. he definitely has a passion for this state. >> after 20 years, iowans are tired of governor terry branstad. the scandals, bad deals, and political favors. $110 million bad deal, taxpayer money given to an egyptian billionaire. isu economists call it the dumbest economic decision made in iowa. branstad even tried to abolish preschool funding. aren't you tired of terry? time for a fresh start. jack hatch for governor. >> there are two men running for iowa governor. terry branstad forces tax breaks for corporations, and jack hatch supports tax cuts for middle class families. while he gave away millions to a wealthy egyptian comedy, jack hatch was putting iowans to work. only one thing branstad and jack hatch have in common. for jack, that is one thing too many. >> i'm ready for a fresh start. >> here are just a few of the comments we have recently received from our viewers. >> i want to say how much i enjoy c-span. to theorning i listened call-in shows. on the weekend, i love the book shows. i traveled white a bit in the summer. i take notes from your history programs. it has enhanced my travel. i see things and i look for people and places and objects i would not have looked for before seeing your program. you have made my life so much better and so much more interesting. take you so much. >> i have been very disappointed in c-span. i called a few times. to my mind, the other day, it looked like grandma and grandpa. realize, youo think that she's going to be fit for office? this is a tough job, being president. she has got nothing. >> 24 hours a day, i hardly ever watch regular tv. i watch "washington journal every morning. weekends are fabulous with book tv and all the historical topics you cover. thank you so much for c-span. it is a big part of my life. >> to tell us about the programs you are watching, call us or e-mail us. you can send us a tweet. join the c-span conversation. like us on facebook or follow us on twitter. next, in a white house ceremony, resident obama award the medal of honor to two vietnam veterans. then ken burns talks about his documentary on the roosevelts. then a documentary about the challenges facing america's youth. on monday, resident obama awarded the medal of honor to benny atkins and army specialist donald. his medal for the actions as serving as an intelligence during the vietnam war. will accept the medal on his brother's behalf. this is 25 minutes. gentlemen, the president of the united states. chief plays] ♪ sacrifice. how hero, the title, is a price paid by soldiers, like the two to be honored today. first remembered by persistence to defend his brothers, to never accept defeat, and to never quit. one who stays alive for his friends by selfishly and respectively giving up his own. these brave men, living and dead, consecrate our history and our faith, courage of our soldiers, significance of our -- sacredness of our values, strength of our nation. today we weave their actions into the fabric of our history as the served in the jungles. we, who are the living, never forget what they did, the friends they lost, the -- -- may we take to heart the words spoken by a grieving president, it is for us, the living, to be dedicated here to the unfinished work which they who fought have so nobly advanced, god of redemption and grace, we ask you to grant these in holy name, amen. >> amen. >> please be seated. good afternoon and welcome to the white house. more than four decades ago, in early 1970, an american squad in vietnam set out on patrol. they marched down a trail, past a rice paddy. shots rang out and splintered the bamboo above their heads. the lead soldier tripped a wire. a booby trap. a grenade rolled toward the feet of a 20-year-old machine gunner. the pin was pulled. and that grenade would explode at any moment. a few years earlier on the other side of the country, deep in the jungle, a small group of americans were crouched on top of a small hill. and it was dark, and they were exhausted, and the enemy had been pursuing them for days, and now they were surrounded, and the enemy was closing in on all sides. two discreet moments, but today we honor two american soldiers for gallant triabove and beyond the call of duty at each of those moments. specialist donald sloat, who stood above that grenade. and command sergeant major bennie adkins, who fought through a ferocious battle and found himself on that jungle hill. nearly half a century after their acts of valor, a grateful nation bestows upon these men the highest military decoration, the medal of honor. normally this medal must be awarded within a few years of the action, but sometimes even the most extraordinary stories can get lost in fog of war or the passage of time. when new evidence comes to light, certain actions can be reconsidered for this honor and it is entirely right and proper that we have done so and that is why we are here today... then he decided to join the army but when he went to enlist he didn't pass his physical because of high blood pressure said he tried again and again, and again. in all it took a physical maybe seven times until he passed. because don sub i was determined to serve his country. in vietnam became known as one of they liked and most are siebel -- likeable guys in this company. his patrol was ambushed both times. don responded with punishing fire from his machine gun leaving himself completely vulnerable to the enemy. both times he was recognized for his bravery or as don put it in a letter home, i guess they think i'm really gung ho or something. and then one morning don and his squad set out on patrol pass that rice patty down that trail where the shots rang out. when the lead soldiers foot trip that wire and set off the booby-trap, the grenade rolled right to don's feet and in that moment he could have run. at that moment he could have ducked for cover but don did something truly extraordinary. he reached down and he picked that grenade up and he turned to throw it but there were americans in front of him and behind him inside the kill zone. don held onto that grenade and pulled her close to his body and bent over it and then as one of the men said, all of a sudden there was a boom. the blast through the lead soldier up against a boulder. men were riddled with shrapnel. four were medevaced out, but everyone else survived. don had absorbed the brunt of the explosion with his body. he saved the lives of those next to him and today we are joined by two men who were with him on that patrol, sergeant william hacker and specialist michael multi-in. for decades, don's family only knew that he was killed in action. they had heard he had stepped on a landline. all those years as gold star family honor the memory of their son and brother whose name is etched forever on that granite wall not far from here. late in her life dawn's mother evelyn finally learned the full story of her son's sacrifice. and she made it her mission to have dawn's actions properly recognize. sadly nearly three years ago evelyn passed away but she always believed, she knew that this day would come. she even bought a special dress to wear to the assembly. we are honored that don and his mom are represented here today by don's brother, sisters and their families on behalf of this american family i would ask don's brother dr. bill sloat to come forward with a rating of a citation and accept the gratitude of our nation. >> the president of the united states of america authorized by act of congress march 3, 1863 has awarded in the name of congress the medal of honor to special sworn donald p. sloat united states army. specialist donald sloat distinguished himself with acts of gallantry and intrepidity at the risk of his life above and beyond the call of duty serving as a machine gunner with company t second battalion, 1st infantry regiment 196 lightning pair trooper. during combat operations in the republic of vietnam on january 17, 1970. on that morning specialist sloat's squad was performing a patrol and armored personnel carriers in the area. as the squad moved up a small hill information to lead soldier tripped a wire attached to a hand grenade booby-trap set up by enemy forces. as the grenade grenade rolled downhill specialist for sloat nelson picked up the grenade. after initially attempting to throw the grenade specialist for sloat realized that nation was imminent. pete drew the grenade to his body and show with his squad members from the blasts saving their lives. specialist sloat's actions to find the ultimate sacrifice to save the lives of his comrades. donald p. sloat's selflessness above and beyond the call of duty are in keeping with the highest traditions of military service and reflects great credit upon himself, company t second battalion. 1st infantry regiment 196 light infantry brigade america division in the united states army. [applause] [applause] [applause] [applause] [applause] >> at this point i would like to ask bennie adkins to come join me on stage. now, let me just say the first thing you need to know is when bennie and i met in the oval office i asked him if he could sign back up. [laughter] his lovely wife was not amused. [laughter] most days you can find bennie at home down at opelika alabama. tending his garden or his pontoon boat out on the lake. he has been married to mary for 58 years. he is the proud father of five, grandfather of six and at 80 still going strong trade a couple of years ago he came here to the white house with his fellow veterans for breakfast we had on veterans day. he told folks he was the only person he knows who spilled his dessert in the white house. [laughter] and i just had to correct him. that makes two of us. [laughter] i have messed up my tie. i had messed up my pants. but in the spring of 1966, bennie was just 32 years old on his second tour in vietnam. he and his fellow greene berets were an isolated camp along the ho chi minh trail. a huge north vietnamese force attacked bombarding bennie and is comrades with mortars and white phosphorus. at a time it was nearly impossible to move without being wounded or killed. but bennie ran into enemy fire again and again, to retrieve supplies and ammo, to carry the wounded to safety, demand a mortar pit, holding off wave after wave of enemy assaults. three times, explosions blasted him out of that mortar pit and three times he returned. i have to be honest, in a battle and daring escape that lasted for four days, bennie performs so many acts of bravery we actually don't have time to talk about all of them. let me just mention three. on the first day, bennie was helping load a wounded american in to a helicopter. vietnamese soldier jumped into the hilo trying to escape the battle and aimed his weapon directly the wounded soldier ready to shoot. bennie shielded his comrade placing himself directly in line of fire helping to save his wounded comrade. at another point in the battle for bennie and a few other soldiers were trapped in a mortar pit, covered in shrapnel and smoking debris. they're only exit was blocked by enemy machine gun fire. so bennie.fast. he dug a hole out of the pit and snuck out the other side. as another american escape through that hole he was shot in the leg. an enemy soldier charged in hoping to capture a live p.o.w. and bennie fired taking out the enemy and pulling his fellow american safety. by the third day of battle, bennie and a few others had managed to escape into the jungle. he had cuts and wounds all over his body but he refused to be evacuated. when a rescue helicopter arrived bennie insisted that others go instead. so on the third night's bennie wounded and bleeding found himself with his men up on that jungle hill exhausted and surrounded with the enemy closing in. and after all they had been through as if that weren't enough, there was something mo more, you can't make this up, they're in the jungle they heard the growls of a tiger. it turns out that tiger might've been the best thing that happened to bennie during those days because he said the north vietnamese were more scared of that tiger than they were a plus. [laughter] said the enemy fled. bennie and his squad made their escape and they were rescued finally the next morning. and danny's life, we see the enduring service of our men and women in uniform. he went on to serve a third tour in vietnam, total of more than two decades in uniform. after he retired he earned his master's degree, actually not one but two, opened up an accounting firm, taught adult education classes, became national commander of the legion of valor veterans organization. so he has earned his retirement, despite what he says. he is living outside auburn and yes he is a fan of the auburn tigers although i did a poll of the family and there are some crimson tide fans here. [laughter] so there's obviously some divisions. but bennie will tell you that he has everything to the men he served with in vietnam, especially the five who gave their lives in that battle. every member of his unit was killed or wounded. every single one was recognized for their service. today we are joined by some of the men who served with bennie including major john bradford the soldier that bennie shielded in that helicopter and major wayne murray, the soldiers, the soldiers thought they deserved -- saved from being captured. and i would ask them in all of our vietnam veterans who are here today to please stand or raise your hand to be recognized. [applause] [applause] [applause] and now i would ask that the citation be read. >> the president of the united states of america authorized by act of congress march 3, 1863 has awarded in the name of congress the medal of honor to sergeant first class danny g. atkins united states army. sergeant first class danny t. adkins dissing bush himself by acts of gallantry and intrepidity at the risk of his life above and beyond the call of duty while serving as an intelligence sergeant attachment a 125th special forces group were special forces during combat operations against an armed enemy at camp eshoo republic of vietnam from march the ninth to 12th 1966. when the camp was attacked by a large vietnamese and viacom force in the early morning hours sergeant first class atkins rush through intense enemy fire and manned an order position continually adjusting fire for the camp despite recurring wounds as a mortar pit received hits from enemy mortars. upon learning that several soldiers were wounded near the center of camp be temporarily turned the mortar over to another soldier ran through exploding mortar rounds and drag several comrades to safety. as hostile fire subsided sergeant first class atkins exposed himself to sporadic fire while carrying his wounded comrades to the camp dispensary. but sergeant first class atkins in this group of defenders came under heavy small-arms fire by members of the civilian irregular defense group they have defected to fight with the north vietnamese he maneuvered outside the camp to evacuate a seriously wounded american and draw fire all the while successfully covering the rescue. when a resupply air-drop landed outside of the camp perimeter sergeant first class atkins again moved outside of the camp walls to retrieve the much-needed supplies. during the early morning hours of march 10, 1966 enemy forces launched their main attack and within two hours sergeant first class atkins was the only man firing a mortar weapon. when all mortar rounds were expanded sergeant first class atkins began placing effective require a list of rifle fire upon enemy positions. despite receiving additional ones from enemy rounds exploding on his position sergeant first class atkins bought up intense waves of attacking vietcong. sergeant first class atkins eliminated numerous insurgents with small-arms fire after withdrawing to communications bunker several soldiers. running extremely low on ammunition he returned to the mortar pit gathered vital ammunition and ran through intense fire out of the bunker. after being ordered to evacuate the camp sergeant first class atkins and the small group of soldiers destroyed all signal equipment and classified documents, dug their way out of the rear of the bunker and talk their way out of the camp. while carrying a wounded soldier to the extraction point he learned that the last helicopter had already departed. sergeant first class atkins led the group a with aiding the enemy until they were rescued by helicopter on march 12, 1966. during the 38 hour battle in 48 hours of escape and invasion fighting with mortars and machine guns require less rifle small-arms and hand grenades, it was estimated to sergeant first class atkins had killed between 135 and 175 of the enemy while sustaining 18 different ones to his body. sergeant first class atkins extraordinary heroism and selflessness above and beyond the call of duty are in keeping with the highest traditions of the military service and reflect great credit upon himself, detachment and a 125th special forces group for special forces in the united states army. [applause] [applause] [applause] [applause] >> over the decades, our vietnam veterans didn't always receive the thanks and respect they deserved. that's a fact. but as we have been reminded again today, our vietnam vets were patriots and are patriots. you served with valor. you made us proud. and your service is with us for eternity. so no matter how long it takes, no matter how many years go by, we will continue to express our gratitude for your extraordinary service. may god watch over don sloat and all those who have sacrificed for our country. may god keep safe those who wear our country's uniform and veterans like bennie adkins and may god continue to bless the united states of america. at this point i'd ask our chaplain to return to the stage iv the benediction. >> let us continue to pray. as we go forth be not afraid. have peace and courage and honor what is good. return no evil for evil to strengthen the fainthearted support the weak and helpless suffering. we honor all people. let us love and serve and may god's blessing be upon us and remain with us always, amen. >> and at this point, i would welcome everybody to join the sloat family and the atkins family for a reception. i hear the food is pretty good. and once again, to all of you who serve and your families who serve along with them, the nation is grateful. and your commander in chief could not be prouder. thank you very much everybody. [applause] >> tomorrow at noon eastern our campaign 2014 coverage continues with a debate between texas governor candidates. this is the first time in 14 years that texas will elect a new governor. that's at noon eastern. we'll follow that at 1:00 p.m. with the arkansas governor's ebate. >> monday night on the communicators, wade baker on the recent data breaches at home depot, target and j.p. morgan chase. >> it's all of the above. we have worked with law enforcement agencies who have busted down doors and dragged people out of their basement literally. we have also participated in fairly large scale arrests of multiple individuals that are very highly connected together. they have individual specialties and roles. someone writes malicious software. the others know how to wash the money. just like organized crime. then there are others that definitely are working on plaff of a government. they have an office. there is pictures of it and recon photos going in and out of work and they go to that building. that's their job is to hack into companies and steal information on behalf of a government. i've seen photos of eastern yirne towns for instance that were just an insane number of people drive lamb boar ginnnies and things like this and a lot of that is spam, fake pharmaceuticals, the financial fraud and just tax fraud and medicare fraud. it's staggering amounts of money that are at some point along that chain traced back to data that was stolen stored at a corporation or government. >> monday night at 8:00 eastern on c-span2. >> award winning film maker ken burns talks about his documentary the roosevelts on monday. it covers the lives of thee door, franklin and eleanor this. is about an hour. e than 30 drama and flair. his topics have ranged from the baseball,ridge to from mark twain to jazz, from prohibition to the national parks. remarkably, his works never become outdated. we commemorate the 150th anniversary of the civil war, on that waries remains as relevant today as it 1950.en it debuted in burns captures the historic moments of american life, with archival materials like personal and newspapers. his use of still photographs been revolutionary. he has called photographs the he has donething and his evocative scans have aansformed his subjects into cinematic experience. the slow-moving, the slow motion scanning technique is now even the ken burns' effect. his new seven-part pbs series, premiered last night. and i have reliable information that the ratings were extremely and that they are soaring. the series will be broadcast every night this week. film, he focuses on the figures,but flawed who, before they were history, were family. news reele to draw on footage, radio broadcasts and personal documents, notably a trove of newly discovered letters between fdr and his daisy and well as an enormous volume of photographs. nearly 2,400 stils series.d in this burns has always rejected using the voice of god approach to narration, relying instead on contemporary voices to bring his words to life. in the roosevelts, you will hear some of america's greatest herman asward franklin and marilyn street as elmore. ken burns, like his films, he never becomes outdated. me in join