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so the news of the world and the sun were sister newspapers based on the same building. obviously, everybody knew phone hacking was going on at the news of the world, it was always denied it was going on at the sun. it has been difficult to find out information. but we say we have got evidence. sex scandal and soap have made the sun the biggest selling - newspaper in the - english—speaking world. the sun newsroom felt like a war room. it was 90 mph, it was frantic, real commercial pressure, we had to sell better than our rivals. we had to do better than our rivals. we were told on days where the mirror had got a great front page that heads will roll and somebody is going to have to be sacked for this because we should have had that, not the mirror. always, it was about exclusives, because it was the exclusive stories