Three days and smoke from outgoing have reached a height of more than seven and a half kilometers he posted all that and those are the headlines news continues right here on aljazeera after inside story better. News has never been more what i think but the message is simplistic and misinformation is rife in listening post provides a critical counterpoint challenging Mainstream Media narrative at this time on aljazeera. Controversy in greece over an arms deal to saudi arabia the government of Prime MinisterAlexis Tsipras is accused of failing to follow proper procedures but how is the weapons trade regulated and is this dispute politically motivated this is inside story. I urge. The end. I know theyre in a war welcome to the program im laura kyle m. P. s in greece are demanding answers about a seventy nine Million Dollars arms deal with saudi arabia thats now on hold the Opposition New Democracy Party accuses defense minister panels coming off of illegally employing a middleman to negotiate with the saudis goshi the saudi agreement a quick law stipulates that Civil Servants handle the terms of contracts not government ministers criminals denies any wrongdoing but the dispute is a potential threat to the left wing government headed by Prime Minister alexis c. Press thats going to straight to our guests and joining us from athens we have gabriele secular regis he is the director of Amnesty International greece and london under smith spokesman for campaign against arms trade and in stockholm via skype hes advisement hes a Senior Research on arms a military Expenditure Program at the Stockholm InternationalPeace Research institute great to have you all with us cable first of all just provides a little bit of context here why is this deal in greece potentially with saudi arabia so controversial. It has been controversial for various reasons as you have already mentioned one of the reasons is that there are some military sounds from the side of. The opposition that there is some kind of economic scandal and there was a big debate in the Greek Parliament a concern in this issue. I cannot comment. Of the economic scandal im not jealous to do that however i would like to comment on another aspect of the sale of weapons to saudi arabia which is the main reason that im not international has published. A press release and asking from the greek government to hold to the sale of these weapons and this is the main aspect from our side of you the fact that this weapons. May be used. From i call it led by saudi arabia in. A strikes or in. Or in yemen and this is for us something very important and for this reason we are asking from the government not to proceed being ve say lawful weapons to say would you or arabia and actually respect to the fact that this very specific government itself has already ratified the arms trade treaty in two thousand and sixteen in march two thousand and sixteen. With sexually demands requires from the government to. Conduct an assessment for whether the sale of the vessels the sale of weapons in particular countries may be used in order to violate International Humanitarian law law and human rights so we get into more of the ethics of it peter i just want to be. But you this question about greeces surplus weapons that its trying to get rid of it seems quite a strain scenario can you explain a little bit more about the situation there well it seems that greece has passed the quietest attention about of ammunition or its tanks look lead a have never used that of course is this kind of evolution has it best before date at a certain point its not as effective or it may actually not work at all anymore so that date is now approaching and clearly response to get rid of these of these type of emanation and somehow or other have clearly down markets this International Lead and looked around if there was a client and it appears that saudi arabia has turned out to be interested in this kind of weapons that in itself is somewhat aunt because saudi arabia is a country which spends a very large amount of money on its military attack in the area and you dont buy that the most the newest equipment this time there has seem to have looked for work thats a cheaper weapons and we also know that they have done the same in neighboring countries neighboring to greece like that area or serbia and that raises a number of questions why saudi arabia would want to buy this kind of weapons ammunition at this point in time or can we look at that can we speculate as to why saudi might be behind this ominous and thats very very close to its expired and relatively small number. Yeah i think that two options one is that saudi arabia. Really feels it needs to quickly replenish its stocks of ammunition it has used ammunition in yemen and maybe it it needs to just replenish that and be able to use it the other option however seems to be and is this particular being also discussed where there are similar kind of devens which countries like serbia garia that the weapons which are being acquired by saudi arabia the cheap ones to cheap that are all the ones are potentially for actually giving a way to for example the government in yemen and the control of how do you all maybe too for example is also being suggested to rebels in syria so there are lots of questions about that it doesnt really seem to make complete sense but a rich wealthy country like saudi arabia would need all second hand ammunition for itself. And do you be very familiar with gabriels argument then grace given they give kays very prolific sale of weapons and i mean yes and to saudi arabia you somewhat surprised to see grace getting in on the action here im certainly not surprised by the opposition weve seen because i think thats part of a much Bigger Picture of own for world where there has been far Stronger Political opposition to arm sales to say do be aware about its been in the u. K. Where its been and germany canada or of the u. S. Are no increase so im not surprised by the scale of opposition to talk and terms of the greek government position on it. I expect that the greek government is trying to increase the arms exports its making and part of that will be about building the arms straight and getting a larger slice of it for greece and for greek an industry however the greek government is one which does talk about imports of human rights and democracy they killer early and yet it is arming and supporting one of the most. Regimes in the world which does not believe in human rights does not believe in democracy and as we used a brutal bombardment against the people of yemen from most free years known as created one of the worst humanitarian crises in the world u. K. Arms have been central to that u. S. Arms have been central to that and now it looks like the greek government is wanting to arm and support the exact same terrible devastating Bombing Campaign ok well you were formerly a spokesman for Prime Minister c. Press could you perhaps give us some insight into why hes doing this he is the leader of a very leftist policy is he happy is sending arms to saudi arabia. Yes. The main reason that the government wants the. Weapons to mostly as it seems as it is claimed actually from the side of the greek government is mostly comic reasons for example the fact that. Greece as you may know of course its a. Crisis is a prolonged economy crisis and there is a lack of Economic Resources so. Take. My weapons that cannot be used for. The greek doesnt doesnt want to use them and in this way they can sell them to another country and make some money. In our point of us Amnesty International this argument is. Appropriate one because you cannot. You cannot. Compare. Konami crowd with human lives and. International humanitarian law. And the arguments in the u. K. Is also an economic one as in this i mean theres. Amount of money to be gained from these arms deals with saudi arabia well certainly with war and conflict there wouldnt be an arms industry. The arms industry would probably be one of the first to go bankrupt so there is a lot of money involved in it and to the Arms Companies which are fueling the devastating bombing were seeing in yemen. Its not a humanitarian crisis to vent to them its a Business Opportunity so certainly has money to be made in it however we have to put this in context looking at the u. K. For example the arms industry for roughly zero point two percent of jobs in the economy over is a lot of money. To be made from the Arms Companies its actually a very small sector of the economy its a very small sector of the economy which employs some incredibly skilled people we want to see your skills being put to good use and often industries and more Productive Industries such as Green Technology such as of the areas of engineering we want to see that happen in view came we want to see that happen in greece but it would seem that many people in the u. K. Not least the judiciary doesnt agree with the end di the u. K. High court ruled just five months ago in favor of these arms sales or years in the we are in the process of appealing that there and it we believe if out there it is up held when it will be regarded by green regarded by the government as a green light to continue arming and supporting some of the most brutal repressive regimes and what old and to continue feeling human rights abuses and for world however people who we do know if you keep public agrees of us because paul after paul has shown that helming majority of people in beauty oppose arms exports not just a savior but tougher human rights abusing regimes that most recent poll i saw which was done last month by opinion fine but only nine percent of the public think its acceptable to sell weapons to say to the bia and yet despite that spite you overwhelming public opposition buke is sold five billion dollars worth of arms to this since it began its brutal compartment of yemen we want the u. K. Government to stand up for human rights to stand up for democracy into endace toxic relationship with facilities you want to see the u. K. Make that change and we want to see other governments make that change to. The greek public against this deal because it does seem in greece especially the political debate it centered more on the use of this alleged middleman rather than the actual human alleged human rights or potential human rights abuses that come with the deal i believe that. The Public Opinion in greece has them on has now on being aware slowly but gradually being now were being aware of what is happening in yemen and this is something. Its very important for us. Even from this discussion about they cannot mix cant people in greece realize that what is happening now in yemen for me the very a. And optimistic scenario actually is that. Before a while actually one hour ago there is a there was an from the side of the Parliamentary Committee for running on Armament Program programs and contract. There was a. Think of this committee and planned for next week i think. About this issue with the west the on how to say they say the sale of weapons to saudi arabia and this happened after the procedure that. Human rights organizations in greece and dumbest international in greece exercised to the members of the Greek Parliament and also on account of the part of the greek Public Opinion is against this sale of a weapons pizza do we have any evidence that saudi actually uses these foreign born weapons or arms in yemen. Saudi arabia together with some other countries in the region has started a full out military intervention in yemen that in the use of all types of arms ranging from combat aircraft. To Bombing Missions to the forces on the ground to ships that. Create a blockade. To yemen so it has to food spectrum weapons which is being employed exactly which weapons are being used whether those greek weapons if they can reach out to arabia would be used in yemen we would not be. Sure it may be at a certain point some evidence would come out but there have been several groups both n. G. O. S and also United Nations panel of experts who have persistently said that there are very clear indications this clear proof that the Saudi Armed Forces have used violence in yemen which is no longer in line with its International LawInternational Humanitarian law the law of war they have attacked civilian targets to be extended can no longer be explained as an accident or something which they hadnt foreseen it it seems that either they are doing this on purpose all they are negligent and they have used force. In a way that that cannot be accepted that is widely. Said the problem is however that there is no and so International Governmental body no International Court which has actually lets say proven this in a more official way ok yes and we will get on to that in just a moment but first saudi arabia is not alone in seeking arms from seemingly unconnected nations israel hasnt divulge details of its ties to min miles government but israeli patrol boats guns and surveillance equipment was sold during the violent crackdown against the rich minority a un investigation revealed the Egyptian Government broke an International Arms embargo on north korea a north korean ship was found to be carrying thirty thousand rocket propelled grenades off the coast of egypt and Amnesty International reveal how a cell Company Registered in london sold at least forty six Million Dollars worth of arms to the south Sudanese Government in two thousand and fourteen and peter was just talking there about a framework to regulates the arms trade we do have the arms trade treaty that is supposed to stop arms from going to repressive regimes hows that working out. Well i think one of the problems of the arms trade treaty is actually a very weak piece of legislation it does have a lot of loopholes in it and none of the government to have been promoting it which does include some of the largest arms exporting nations of the world none of them regard it as a curb on the ability to sell weapons feel view that as legitimizing the sales its were already doing it so i think the arms treaty certainly needs work done to it we want it to succeed but i dont think the problem is primarily a legislative one because we believe that in the u. K. When the u. K. Is selling arms to say duty but we believe it isnt violation of u. K. Arms export trade here we dont leave the problems legislative is about political will is about the fact that government after government of all political colors have been more than happy to peut arms exports and arms Company Profits ahead of human rights than it of democracy so we want to see a cultural change as we want to see cultural change we do want to see stronger legislation internationally but we also want government to actually bite by the legislation thats already in place to not just follow the letter of it but also a spirit of it because theres absolutely no model defense for these arms exports whatsoever the gabriel doesnt the case in greece prove point exactly that theres very little political will to abide by these regulations because greece signed this arms trade treaty just last year. Yes of course the government actually rectified i said i think that ive already mentioned the red five arms trade treaty in march thirty first of. Two thousand and sixteen next its actually on again the house and go and it was this the same government the same government that this is the power so actually the problem is that of course this treaty is a are not. Does not entail any sanctions for the country violates the treaties but of course from the moment that the government the country signs and ratify the treaty then it has to respect what is included in the treaty and we believe that no not no assessment has been done from the side of the greek government of the the risks that sale of weapons to the around area and how this weapons can be used in yemen has been conducted and this is a very big problem actually and at least its a bit down there a Risk Assessment peter that brings me on to the e. U. Parliament its going to be debating an arms embargo isnt it all one does exist nonbinding they seen how well that goes will this new one potentially have morty. No there is very little chance that whatever the you may suggest nobody has suggest when it comes to e. U. Arms embargo that that will actually lead to an agreement between the e. U. States to impose an arms embargo or even say significant restraints on arms exports to saudi arabia i find it very difficult to believe fired in the light of what countries like france and you came particular but also many others with you have gone over the years the fact that they know so well whats going on in saudi arabia that these this resolution which probably will be voted on there and we did in the European Parliament on thursday well actually that. The resolution may come true but that the e. U. Council will not follow up on it as they have not on the last year i dont so i think that mr little reason to believe that we will see much change in the arms