Person has died and hundreds of homes have been destroyed in the fires that have burned almost a thousand square kilometers of lead dangerous wind gusts and dry weather conditions have been hampering all the efforts to try and contain it right up to date swear the headlines here on aljazeera makes up its inside story. News has never been more of a liberal but the message is a simplistic and misinformation is rife for the listening post provides a critical counterpoint challenging Mainstream Media narrative at this time on aljazeera. Amnesty International Says the European Union is complicit in the abuse of refugees in libya it says european governments ignore Rights Violations and violent tactics used by the libyan coast guard so will this report help refugees this is inside story. Hello welcome to the program im still robin the mediterranean refugee crisis was the top story on every channel has fall out of the spotlight in recent months and that may be because refugee and Migrant Deaths are down significantly but amnesty International Says many refugees are actually better off as migration routes to europe closed down hundreds of thousands have been forced back into Detention Centers in libya where theyre often facing physical and sexual abuse amnesty says the European Union hasnt just been aware of these abuses but its been complicit in them will get to our guests in a moment but first this report from in the hours there these images sparked outrage around the World African migrants at risk of being sold at auction in libya the accusation of modern day slavery triggered International Concern and you pledges to address the issue. But in a report by the Human Rights GroupAmnesty International european governments are accused of not only being aware of these abuses but also actively supporting libyan authorities in stopping sea crossings and preventing refugees and migrants from leaving what we have in libya. Its a lawless country to start with and if it isnt migrants are treated like a commodity we heard about. Slave auction just a week or two ago and here we are so essentially any migrant a refugee is pretty much criminalized you know italy has been singled out for criticism its accused of beating efforts to fund libyan detention camps train libyan coast guards to intercept ships carrying refugees and migrants as well as encouraging libyan tribes in armed groups to work as Border Guards amidst the also found those prevented from leaving libya face arbitrary detention torture forced labor extortion and death at the hands of the authorities traffickers as well as armed groups no european government officials can claim to be unaware of what the libyan authorities at doing the kind of knowledge of the kind of horrific suffering that people are facing inside libya so i think the approach of the European Union is in order to protect their own borders theyre ready to push people back at any cost and not respect even the basic rights of human beings libya is the main transit point for refugees and migrants trying to reach europe by sea nearly half a Million People have made the dangerous crossing across the mediterranean over the past three years according to the uns Migration Agency in that time close to ten thousand people have died while attempting to make it to europe following the provision of ships training and funding from the e. U. And italy to the libyan coast guard amnesty found the number of arrivals to italy fell by nearly seventy percent between july and november compared with the same. Period last year the number of refugees who died see has also reduced but its not clear what future awaits the estimated twenty thousand migrants and refugees now in overcrowded and unsanitary Detention Centers across libya. For inside story. Well lets bring in our guest for with edition of inside story in two minutes on scott mohammad the jar novel is covering libya and norm resident fellow at the Atlantic Councils rafi curry center for the middle east in london Philip Luther middle east and north Africa Research and advocacy director at Amnesty International and from the European Parliament in strasburg also on barea dutch member of the European Parliament thank you all for joining us on this edition of inside story i felt lisa let me just begin with you in london you do represent mr not Amnesty International its a an explosive accusation to make at this moment in time why has i need amnesty decided to come to this conclusion with the evidence that youve collated well Amnesty International has been researching the situation of refugees and migrants in libya for years now this latest report really tries to put a finger on the extent of the abuse inside libya and specifically inside Detention Centers that are run by the libyan authorities and what we find is that tens of thousands are held there in indefinite an arbitrary detention and theyre exposed to really quite horrendous abuses torture extortion bonded labor and thats why were putting it out now and how do you coin that then into the e. U. Being complicit how are they involved the European Union and its elise in particular that has done most to pursue cooperation with with libya open sickly over the last year not only is it fully aware of these abuses but it has taken a host stream of measures in order to cooperate with the libyan authorities to stop. Those seeking to cross the mediterranean from doing so and therefore forcing refugees in my. And its back into Detention Centers where they are at the mercy of not only the libyan authorities and the guards the control these tensions centers but also then a a network of of others militias traffickers and smugglers who who are contributing to that abuse lets lets go to the ferry in strasbourg listening intently to what Philip Luther had to say how do you respond to that as a member of the European Parliament that also a as a representative of the netherlands as well as a country that is very supportive of migration and the problems that individuals have had in their own respective nations where there has been civil strife all this afternoon we are actually in beijing with the e. U. Foreign policy chief exactly about what this show is about is the situation in libya and to which extends the e. U. Is involved or can be called responsible for whats happening there so its very much in the mind of the European Parliament you know and i think its not only amnesty but resources of c. N. N. Report we had already stories from Doctors Without Borders we speak to people arriving in italy and telling us about the horrendous stories that are happening inside libya the facts i think are clear and well recognized the question is here in to which extent is the e. U. Capable of you know we are not to want hosting hosting those Reception Centers were trying to do training for the coast guard without a Monitoring System i think thats a thats a very big big problem here but you can also not say the e. U. Shouldnt do anything and let all the people drown or a little bit people just cross to the European Union so politically its not so easy to find a solution for this problem which is respectful of the human rights of migrants and the refugees in libya let me bring in the jar here its very interesting isnt it you have a scenario. And if i could just generally say you know libya is a failed state in the sense that weve seen civil war and strife in the country with no real functioning government that controls the whole area youve got the e. U. On the outside of those borders trying to protect itself but also trying to finance agencies within libya that can try and control the migration problem and there the gray area is how they dont want to be involved in the internal affairs of a foreign country thats the first thing that any of the twenty eight member bloc would say i mean from within libya the way you would see this is that the European Union or the taliban government in this case is trying to delegate the task of stopping migrant or making sure that we bring the numbers of migrants crossing the sea down to a Libyan Government that really does not exist on the ground. Because what we have is a Libyan Government that cannot provide for its own citizens in libya where you have one point three million libyans at the moment according to the United Nations in urgent need of the humanitarian assistance and you are giving the task of intercepting and and detaining those migrants to a government that is overrun by militias a government that is control by militias and a government that contracted militias that are complicit in some cases in the abuses that we are talking about today how do you then deal with the scenario where a little shy to use the Amnesty International secretary general mohammed says here on aljazeera that the even like the u. N. Hates the are has no access as you just mentioned there and that they would like to go in and do more research you cant do that in a situation that is so unstable it definitely cannot do that because when he or person i would need to be what would need to have security who will provide that security if we can provide security for. And its more any International Organization to work then there you go part of the problem is solved that we do have security in libya the problem is that its very difficult to achieve the security requirements for any International Organization to operate and i think its i mean i think there is a little bit of misunderstanding of the issue at hand here because we need to look back to the root causes the migrants where did they come from and why did they make this this this barony and many of them are not actually very poor compared to the standards of those that are left behind in the countries of origin these are people who have fallen so happy enough money to make the journey and so on so what happened whats there is a Business Model that expands over of our continent not just country indian people are actually i mean the smugglers are advertising their services and that model has to be has to be. I mean broken sure it cannot continue like that and we should not focus just on one point of that journey and that is libya not i was going to let me just a minute i was going to me let me just come in i was actually going to mention this a bit later on in the program but you brought it in a lot earlier kathy can i come to you a lot of these migrants according to sensitive sticks from Amnesty International sixty percent of them Subsaharan Africa thirty two percent from north africa seven percent from asia in the middle east. Its africa is a huge continent in terms of those that come from it and those that are transversing through it the internal issues of the democratic republic of congo nigeria needs share the congo they all have their own problems and therefore the reasons for people migrating through you might say an easy route such as libya at this present moment in time is understandable you cant solve all of africas problems and therefore it has to stop some when its stopping on the coastline of libya at the moment how is this conversation be foretold to start with before you will gather and talk about it in strasburg i mean the. And here in the European Parliament theres a wide recognition is that we keep calling all these people coming whether they are in need of International Protection or not we keep killing of Illegal Migrants but the only reason why we have to welcome Illegal Migrants because we dont have legal safe parkways for refugees to enter into europe and this is not course also the problem not only but in many other countries we only take here through legal means a very small number of people so already knows who survived to make it to the dangerous journey can actually call for International Protection in europe so thats one thing we need to set up that safe and legal path but you know we were also faced with hundreds of people dying all on the side of the libyan coast this is not where the International Organizations could do search and rescue missions so is it too cynical to think that least you are trying to train people a costar in i understand a very hasty political situation in libya but youre trying to train them in order to save people now my criticism is is that we didnt put in any Monitoring System there and then i think an amnesty report like this is so important to show us about the bare fact that we have complicity with gangs with militia in east and libyan coast eyes and thats where i think you know also the e. U. Parliamentarian is that spears money being made there we have to monitor for sure that its not harming migrants we should improve their situation im going to play devils advocate here philip because i think i have to i think if you are the e. U. And you want to try and help you can only help to a certain point as an elected official and if youre helping those for example in libya the coast guard various independent groups to try and either turn refugees back or get them into Detention Centers where they could be repatriated back to the National Countries it is a start to a certain extent of trying to find or keep people safe. Its all very well to blame the e. U. Isnt it with the simple word of that complicit to this but they have no control of the mainland of libya and thats the really big problem you have to sort the problem out there first where the European Union does have control of and for instance italy has control of is the the types of agreements that it enters into. And what we are saying and its this is very important for me we are saying there is a bad a corporation at the moment there is cooperation at the moment that leads to the tional human Rights Violations now the alternative to Bad Corporation were saying is not no cooperation were not suggesting that the European Union or countries such as italy bilaterally should simply walk away. Quite on the contrary we are saying that the European Union potentially has a very Important Role to play and if we take just the issue of the libyan coast guard its absolutely right as weve just heard a moment ago that. That effort should be made to support the libyan coast guard to rescue people at sea particularly in waters that are libyan territorial waters where they have a mandate to do so because the problem is then where the agreement allows the libyan coast guard not to save those individuals and then ensure they get to safety but then takes them back to as web of collusion whereby they are then held indefinitely and in conditions in Detention Centers inside libya and its that thats got to change ok one of the joys that has got to change at this present moment in time where do we stand with the libyan authorities the the civil strife that is affecting the country in terms of finding some sort of real unity government including the military that would allow an environment to be safe for those that want to leave the shores of libya if they ever did. Currently the country they did the country is de facto partition the e. U. Have two different competing authorities one in the eastern part of the country and then you have the internationally recognized government. In the capital tripoli however that government again has only small control over a small part of of western and libya and most of those abuses that we were we hear about all we have been here hearing about are happening in areas that are no no mans land so i think a lot more should be done internationally and also regionally at making sure that we put more pressure on libyan actors to make sure that they come to the table and that there is a settlement soon enough so that we can create an environment conducive of uniting the state institutions making sure that we start to have some form of security or order. Or or professional military to start to develop so that we can deal with many issues including the migration issue but also including the terrorism issue and a range of other issues that not only effect libya but effect its neighbors the region and also europe can bring your home port and all those subsaharan nations and some Southern African nations as well as countries such as afghanistan and syria and iraq in terms