Had called and cheered hong kong as leader faces more calls to step down as politicians disruptor and you will policy address can carry law and hold on to her job and what needs to be done to end 4 months of unrest this is inside story. Hello welcome to the program im so hell robin hong kongs chief executive kerri lam is struggling to maintain public order there have been 4 months of antigovernment protests that have turned violent protesters have been calling on lamb to resign shes refused hoping to move all with a new legislative agenda but it seems shes struggling to do that as well on dry ground now painting. Theres opposition politicians twice shouted down her annual policy speech in the Legislative Council had to resort to giving a pre recorded address through a video link the protest movement has once again calling on her to meet their demands which include direct elections for the citys leader amnesty for arrested demonstrators and an inquiry into Police Actions all 5 demands are very clear not one. And i really urge her if she cant govern hong kong and she has no determination to govern hong kong. And even capable. I mean its treating Hong Kong Police that town but lamb sidestepped these demands an urge people to and the protests. Are they the whole were very worried that a small number of people have escalated to a level of violence perhaps some people dont like the governments combination so we must ask what can balance a chief for hong kong and i mean can it solve our crisis or pull a spread their way from michaels urge once again for everyone to cherish the city and that hong kong return to peace like some rights activists have condoned lums address as pointless. I think youve todays most pressing concern isnt addressed along with the fact that kerry lands government has not responded to the peoples 5 demands and i think this policy address because no i mean i might be but for 4 months. Playing down. For the public. But he didnt. Get it or i thought about it because of. Thats introduce the panel on todays inside story in hong kong joining us via skype is emily lau chairperson of the International Affairs committee of the Democratic Party welcome in london roderick y. A fellow at the Asia Pacific Program Chatham House and also in Hong Kong Ruben want to judge a professor for asian initiatives at the i e s e Business School welcome to all of my guests and to you here on inside story just to get a brief snapshot of what we feel about whats been going on in hong kong and i just ask you the generic question 1st the people there have varying opinions about what is going on and how they feel about carry land as we know it the political divide could not be wider at this moment in time what do you make a certainly the last few hours that weve seen in the legislature. Well as you can see how its split asunder people are very unhappy and i think many others like me want that situation to stay were down i carry that its just doing the opposite so we dont know where did this and read its going to end we should see why and london perhaps an impartial view from thousands of miles away certainly whats your view of whats going on at the moment i think it is very difficult still to see a political end to this and surely they were the way forward is through politics because the Hong Kong Government treating this as a law and order issue has has not worked the there is still strong support in hong kong for the for the changes and reforms and the Hong Kong Government does not appear to be listening ruben lundy a political a political view but with the economic background to your certainly portfolio what do you make of this. Well we have to look at this in 2 ways one is the short term and one is the long term the short term there is an anger a seething anger and that has to be addressed quickly and then the long term i think is quite good it will be good for hong kong and china in general so you are looking at the one country 2 systems so theres a tug of war and what we are seeing is the tension between the one country and 2 systems but when this is over it will be a lesson for china it will also be a lesson for hong kong indeed they will try and pick all the bases and touch all the bases along this conversation to inside story today only let me just come back to you on wednesday we saw. Failed in her attempt to address the largest insurer and her policy statement yet we have a video recording all of this obviously of what she had to say and she talked about financial help sort of low income families who need better housing and a promise to listening gauge with opposing politicians and the public she said this in a variety of forms im paraphrasing here is it enough. Well you look at what happened in the Legislative Council complex if she is students here in wishing to engage with the prodemocracy politicians i dont think they would have treated her like that today. Theres no injects talking to them and thats why were so angry just going back to the legislative laps of next tomorrow to answer questions i dont think it will be any different from today this is this is this is crazy you really have to go out and engage and listen to people who have very different lives roger why in london has has the Tipping Point been reached to a certain extent for curry lonmin that so much has happened since what april earlier this year when all of this began with the anger over an extradition legislation that would have maybe taken suspects from hong kong but to the chinese mainland has so much happened in the time span that its sort of too late to turn back and some new way of being gauging the public has to be thought up beyond carry lamis is it a case that beijing has to get involved in some shape or form or get her guidance at least i think. Im sure beijing is telling her quite a lot of what to do and say. I think beijing is still very reluctant to be seen to be acting directly on our in this in this matter and prefers to leave it to the Hong Kong Government but behind out a very strong statements that people should not expect that they can get away with from beijings point of view that the violence and these kind of things for ever but i think for the moment beijing is not still not interested in involving itself directly refers to use carry lamb and she has. Completely failed as emily said to both to engage in anything other than a formal kind of a way and and to listen and more than to listen to respond to the. Reasonable requests that have been coming in the past and this failure to listen or respond is exacerbating the violence in hong kong at the moment. But youre nodding in agreement but just one quick quote to you roderick i mean is is kerry land between a rock and a hard place because basically if she then goes into the Legislature Legislature on thursday as we expect she will and she receives the same sort of reception where does that leave her because she cant keep getting giving video messages to the whole cole people and certainly to follow politicians who expect to be able to engage even if they disagree with the leader of the administration of the island i think this is the real real problem that hong kong faces at the moment that there is really very little trust in the Hong Kong Government and in the and in the Police Forces but theres also sort of no real avenues for sensible political discussion because as we have seen the sort of Legislative Council which should be a real debate. Point. Has not been able to do so and part of the reason for that is the intransigence of the Hong Kong Government but part of the reason is also that its very difficult for the protesters to find a political voice and somehow that needs to happen. Again here you were nodding in agreement with what roger was saying. Yeah you know 3 months ago i thought kerry lamb should stay on to sort of manage whats whats happening but now after 4 months i think she should go and i think now the protesters and also the opposition the democrats in the alleged course should ask beijing to just let her go and replace her with that not the number 2 matthew trying because now she has become a hate figure so the anger has to be solved psychological so people are very angry just seeing her face so there are actually several people that are still people that are hit figures that inspire anger in the protestors thats mrs Lamb Research chain which is the secretary of for justice the secretary for security john lee and the head of the police they should all disappear and be replaced by their number twos just psychologically just to have a kind of to quell the current emotional anger of the people and then carry lunch and say ok i go and then what happens next is for beijing to agree that new faces should appear because some people of the take responsibility for the the past 4 months did this is that this is the this short term you need those real importance of these hate figures indeed are those the talking points that weve said we touched upon in many inside stories because i believe youre smiling away through the response from reuben i do understand because even if kerry lyman her top hero of a government officials step or saeed and you dont have the number twos as is stated taking the position the issue is still is it not about voting one person one vote in voting for the people that you want in charge rather than being imposed upon. By by the leaders in beijing the fundamental issue is still about being able to vote is it not. The people that will administer the island and they should be the choice of people for the whole cold absolutely right but i agree that these people were made redundant and of course the biggest crisis in hong kong in whole history everybody agree this is the biggest crisis and we dont even know when its going to end so i think those people have to gulp and i fully agree so we should have of course this chief secretary will be acting for 6 months and then well have a by election and you know writes this committee of 1200 people mainly john from the business and political elite able to choose another one maybe in another kerry land but still wont ever make that mistake has to go and then of course we will also have to address the problem of how to give all got people to right to choose their chief executive and all members of the Legislative Council but even then i think this independent inquiry that so many homes are people what whether they are probate game or democracy many of them support this inquiry which is a very reasonable thing and weve had such inquiries in the past so its not as if were asking but independents i think well perhaps at some people at the girl but we still have it in life and of course to hold the hold all of us is a city state and can i bring you in here roderick why when you have issues that caroline mentioned today that sort of was trying to appease the public which was about housing about health helping those on low incomes to be able to afford the right type of housing being having a conciliatory nature she actually said that politicians need to be aware of and i paraphrasing here feeling the need of the people the need to be tolerant and open minded and listen to all views. I got a sense in that speech on wednesday that she was trying certainly to reach out what was your reading of the way that she tried to form ho words for the public in hong kong i think youre right in the sense that she was trying to reach out she was using this idea that there is a strong economic motivation behind the demonstrations and that if you could. Satisfy the economic problems then the some of the causes of the grievances would go away but i think that sort of putting the cart before the horse in a way that the problem really is to me is a is a political one its not a its not a not an economic one the 2nd thing about listening to the people but weve heard this so many times before and the fact is that although she may listen there is no evidence really of her properly hearing those voices or responding to them and i think as far as putting a new team in charge is. I mean it that is not going to solve the problem if the new team come up with the same line as the Current Administration is its interesting theres various articles being written globally you want to pick a few of them out for the guardian a gentle howard w. French academic and an author he suggested that several decades ago when china began this idea of sort of creating wealth an open market you know it would create a much richer middle class that would maybe tip the pendulum in the future when they would want more participatory. Behavior in electing their officials because there was a wealth and therefore strength came with money and therefore democracy or would would lead people to head in that direction. As it backfired slightly in the way that chinas policy has developed over 2030 years that giving people the opportunity to create money create wealth has also said what we want some more say now in politics in democracy inverted commas. Yes actually i was i think what is happening in hong kong is a brick cursor for what could happen actually in china later because they are passing precisely through that stage in development in Market Economics in which after you have already tasted the euro you are the full gamut of the of the basic needs. Of. Maslows 5 needs then you want to have a say in how you are governed china that is not shared at that stage but you know wait for maybe 20 years and the they could be at that stage so is im not saying that they are not heading towards that direction i think that thats were actually china is heading in these are lets just its not a question of or now its hard kong style concern but later it could be chinas turn indeed but just give our viewers a little bit more sort of background are we coming back to emily in a moment because well take a closer look at the impact of those protests on the whole concept colony because the numbers of visitors to the city fell by nearly 40 percent in august compared to the Previous Year arrivals from the main tourist market the Mainland China dropped by 42 percent now hong kongs Biggest Airline Cathay Pacific has experienced a string of resignations while some workers have been suspended for taking part in those protests and last month the Credit Agency fitch lowered hole calls rating it blamed the protests for destabilizing the regions Business Environment emily can i come back to you because obviously youve got a great sense of history of the politics of the city you know how it operates both on the civil level and on the economic level. How much of a hit just from a political point of view from your position has had these demonstrations had on the economy of the island we touched upon it not in our news broadcasts as well but also on inside story many times but you know were in october now were several months so from down the line from when the. Protests began and its becoming pretty serious oh yes its very serious and many restaurants and shops have closed and they are more closures on the way and i guess people have been laid off and there will be more unemployed man and people are really very unhappy but there is still strong sympathy for the protesters because actually the people themselves want those demands to be met but of course not too many people support violence thats why i hope the protests can continue but i hope they will be more peaceful and every time when you had protests that you have 100200000 people turning out it is very good but of course it affects business sure is not how many conferences exhibitions many are cancelled and i think singapore is benefiting from it quite a lot and some people are sending their money to singapore and elsewhere so also it is bad so thats why i hope the Business Community will speak out i hope they will find some courage to speak up because the hotels are empty their restaurants are empty their shops are empty so i think it is hurting badly but kerry len she has to be pushed up this way get into accepting the people who see my ok let me bring in roderick here because when you hear sort of a financial hit the whole coles taken again somebody else thats been writing in South China Morning Post talk to shirley zee you shes a senior visiting fellow at the London School of economics shes a fellow at Harvard Kennedy school and a former news anchor for the state broadcaster. Roderick she says that china would rather see whole coal lose control of its financial gateway that ever seed political power thats quite a dangerous statement in lots of ways to come from an academic but one that you know perhaps should be considered and talked about even at this time. I think it is sensible to consider it i dont think were at that kind of turning point at the moment but yes i think that is one of the sort of fundamental end if you like unchanging elements in this series of problems that were facing at the moment and that is that beijing ultimately puts politics before economics and its interests in hong kong are huge for from the economic side but they would be prepared if necessary to compromise them in favor of of their politics but were not at that position yet hong kong has been damaged the economy has undoubtedly been damaged and will suffer more damage but it is interesting actually that overall confidence in hong kong seemed to remain pretty strong and as emily was saying you know the people significant numbers of people are still prepared to turn out on the streets to protest and that would not be happening if if people were putting their own economic short Term Economic interests 1st indeed in the kind of brinkley bring you in here that because with the thought of holding a Financial Center and still being at the heart of these protests at the moment that how important are Financial Center such a shit shanghai beijing and then in terms of the Bigger Picture for china itself when it what it calculates their importance and hold holds importance. Well there are about almost 400 International Banks in hong kong is the 5th Financial Center of the world shanghai cannot compete to be that strong from hong kong and you can just see the reaction of the world the European Union the United States many other countries are you know on hong kongs side despite chinas heavy rhetoric so it means that the soft power in of hong kong is larger actually than the soft power of china so in in that sense china has to has to change i have seen china change in the past 4 months for example earlier they were saber rattling you know organizing military drills just across the border Nothing Happened all the party of china for 70 f. Birthday was overshadowed was eclipsed by the protests you know how cool and thats what the world was seeing and thats what the world was siding with with the hong kong about that its not so much the just the economics but they understand that you know if hong kong is truly a 2 systems experiment the china should allow because china is trying to paint hong kong as a separatist its not a separatist movement they want universal suffrage they want to vote for someone who can speak for them and that this is the problem is that a separatist movement and china tries to sell this idea that you know yesterday the presidency jinping says that the anyone whos tries to split china will be crushed to the bones thats nothing thats not how the world understands hong kong and i think as i said this is no mother home much hard power chinese they cannot defeat at the moment still is because hong kong is very strong in that soft power especially in the therms of its financial strength ok let me just give emily the final word welcome to the end of the program really just want to the basically bring in the fact that you know as ruben suggested the International Community is watching especially the United States and the. House has just brought a new legislation to say that they are watching whole call very carefully and they will decide whether it has a special trade status in the future if the realities on the ground dont improve is that an encouragement is that a warning how do you read that in the context of the politics of hong kong and how it could be received in beijing i think many hopeful people welcome passage of that act in the house of representatives but whether it will actually become real remains to be. The same thing and what this president s trying to say but its good for them to penalise of his shots well i dont mind human rights but of course we dont want them to take the call out of separate customs territory treatment that would hurt the whole you know and will be a big blow to me but if they can send a signal to these gnostic people and say ah if you undermine human rights we will back from coming to america and weve got the u. K. And the countries to the same and not so we will freak out and thats because as you know many of these people have access in the rest and they said get your hand believes over there so i think that will house it well indeed and there we have to leave it im sure thatll be a topic for another inside story in the future emily thanks so much to emily lau and reuben mangia in hong kong and of course to roderick why in london to all of my guest thank you for joining us on this edition of inside story and thank you for watching as well but you can see the program again any time by visiting our website at aljazeera dot com and to further discussion you can to our Facebook Page answer facebook dot com forward slash a. J. Inside story you can also join the conversation on twitter and i handle that is that a. J. Inside story for me its a whole robin and all of the inside story team thanks very much for your time and your company bison. The environment doesnt know any boundaries what goes up into the environment goes around the world. On trans that its a very modern way to defy a leave me voice as the measure of progress. In the domestic population has become organized enough and active enough to believe if you look. In their music it will kill people or more vulnerable circle of poison on aljazeera. You stand the differences. And the similarities of cultures across the world. Aljazeera. And all of the problem in doha with the headlines on aljazeera the u. S. Secretary of state mike pompei and weiss president mike pence are on their way to turkey to push for a ceasefire in the east and syria is part of a delegation hoping to meet president treasurer at the end but hes insisting the offensive one tend until his objectives are met. 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