From kashmir to block just on to religious minorities is pakistan willing to take responsibility for its human rights abuses i lost the human rights minister in imran khans government. Here in missouri thank you for joining me on up front you are the human rights minister in a government that is perhaps the worlds number one critic of Indian Government human rights abuses in kashmir abuses that weve covered on the show very recently but what about pakistans own contribution to that human rights crisis in kashmir youve backed groups like gesture mohamad going to say about that have killed civilians that have engaged in torture that have ethnically cleansed kashmiri hindus thats all undeniable isnt it its absolutely did. We not done any ethnic cleansing. And say that the but. The situation. I think nobody in the. Believes that the dish needs in occupy wall street. From. The scene and. The scene. Its now 121. 00 days and weve covered weve weve covered the lockdown extensively im just wondering you can still have an indigenous Freedom Movement while also having pakistan support violent groups like gesture muhammad and whats going to say about you dont deny even your Prime Minister has admitted that your country in the past has backed some pretty vicious groups here that yes in the past we have backed Freedom Fighters and me and back groups supporting those fighters that was a long time ago and nothing and youve done the best human rights by occupation all. The violence that that has to. Indigenous struck it to say to you so you know did you discuss marys but didnt the leader of gesture mohamed take responsibility for an attack on Indian Security forces in february that almost led to war between your 2 countries he did that while allegedly sitting in a Pakistani Military hospital bed hes caught noting attacks on india from pakistan your little bit where. Attack was a false flag operation deliberately to try and crack. Into what you had already and which was of course the luck of the. Orcas all of you. Went there and we know that india was going to this election if they didnt want to detract attention and the this does not create a step this who was behind the obama ad that we have all use a false flag but the un committee which blacklist terror groups blacklisted gesture mohamad earlier this year or tried to blacklist the Group Earlier this year you know that theyve claimed responsibility for that attack and you also know that the Financial Action task force which is one of the worlds leading Global Financial watchdogs based in paris says has said repeatedly this year that your government is not just the past your government today is not doing enough to curb terrorism financing. And Money Laundering inside of pakistan thats what the Financial ActionTask Force Says they were on weed out of playing with most of the Financial Action task force but you also know they meant that one of the members of the f. T. And. Having the serious problem and we have protested objected yes but those that politicize this what should not be up and. Up when it does not let me yes or to try to improve. Sort of euthanizes route and comply they say youve only complied with 5 of the 27 action items theyve asked you to take on terrorism and Money Laundering lets just talk about independence you talk about them. Yes just briefly respond to the Financial Action. Has not. Shown that we are cooperating with. That and i think the general impression is that yes. I mean up at this well. You mentioned indigenous Freedom Movement in kashmir but its not as if your government pakistan is offering customary freedom is it in pakistani administered kashmir known as ours in your country which means free or independent kashmir the politicians are forced to sign a declaration there saying quote i solemnly declare that i believe in the ideology of pakistan the ideology of the state access into pakistan and the integrity and sovereignty of pakistan that doesnt sound like freedom or independence for the customer is there theyre locked into your country a new government and listen this is the bottom of fish need that liberate it so strong and yet occupation and that it was going to link up with one it is not and occupy if you. Just no memory either is or its not free its not independent and the parliament they have then elections and. Just say this. And we have said that we have not even focalized our border with china that they reported agreement in. Guinea to the private settlement after the initial meters so we have to be clear it has to be clear are you offering question marys independence yes or no does the pakistani government offering me the accent or whatever they want but that letter said i dont think you had supervision but the un people get it as you notice here in missouri the u. N. Pub is it does not have independence question on it it says join India Pakistan im on 3 would you out of the question on independence. We have. Youve been listening and they want to read that choice and. If want it we have to go we should give them the right to. The Indian Government says you have no credibility when it comes to criticizing their actions in crimea given your own actions in baluchistan your countrys biggest province where the pakistani government has dealt with a decades long insurgency by killing abducting torturing thousands of people even today. Listen india. Is an internationally recognized. But meaning. So one believes that isnt and. Secondly we have been elected when. The province makes its choices well this is absolutely not the bad as in yes i absolutely no comparison 1st of all you say its an integral part of our country thats exactly what india says you blame india for supporting the military insurgence thats what india says about part on in kashmir and just sort of the fact the voice of below its missing Persons Organization you must know the v. B. M. P. They say that since 1948 pakistan has quote been killing people and throwing dead bodies they say 45000 people have been killed or abducted by pakistani Security Forces those a pakistani citizen saying this by the way. A lot of them are not. Living up to. Provoke that. Just on what. Exactly. You have updated your information we have no combat a bit but again. We have a commission which is focusing on getting out in force just. Yet. If anybody. Has a problem. The lad but the fact of the matter is that if he gets. At least in good actions impotent. Mentioned a story whether it was about the let us know what the understand how this sounds to a global audience watching this they hear an indian politician come on the show a few weeks ago and say pakistan is behind everything bad in kashmir then they hate you come on the show and say india is behind everything that is bad and blah to stop its a mirror image no i am not saying yes and. I think thats. Me accept it was a little it had been given a bit back and yet they say the same about you. Know what im talking about. What not understanding like you know what they dont want to accept from you maybe just leave this as a. Its recognized as a disputed territory not an occupied territory but if you want is just to be clear. Between yes but it is a place where as you yourself say there are enforced disappearances you told me a moment ago that all possibile to stop in forced disappearances which suggests that you know that that is not disappearance. Of human rights abuse and you know the human rights and. Let it. Be that made it true also. But we recognize it and yet you link with it and we have institutions where you can. And i think this is the basic difference between and. Yes i think you made that point you made that i said well look the bet is that they looked at other things that. You know ok well were going to run out of time so im going on here to talk about india we have to talk about pakistan just sticking with your portfolio which is human rights a lot of people around the world look at pakistans pretty draconian and barbaric blasphemy laws is something i discussed with imran khan when and he was on the show a couple of years ago some pakistani politicians have tried to train them they got killed for speaking out against your blasphemy laws do you understand why those laws leave religious minorities in your country like christians and shias and hindus ahmadis feeling still persecuted demonized target is. Us she has like not the mind. And that bothers them. So it is yet when we talk about my daughter the sheer can. If you have an oppressed Minority Community in pakistan or not actually really that havent been and i havent been killings of shia professionals there havent been disappearances of has already she is in balochistan there hasnt been a sectarian campaign of hiatus i havent been suicide bomb attacks and. Weve just imagined. By incident one attacking the other but to say that this yes that might well use fact. We have a slim simpsons and we are the minority i mean not the one muslim citizens yes then the problems but also the separate press that accusations last week charges. And took less than just you up to it of blasphemy yes we. Will stems were trying to destroy it and. So i mean that issues really dont you know bit and i dont mean that piece of it well oh my god well almost instant doesnt have all us little of. Imaginable that were not seeing is that things are happening in the gulf of course the ahmadis who are in a tricky situation because you say theyre not muslims they say they are muslims heres what and how many spokesman said this year under your government he said how many have no religious freedoms in pakistan and recent actions taken by the authorities mean that the situation is going to deteriorate further and make it impossible for ahmadis to carry on with their everyday lives that was just 67 months ago under your government let me listen the enmities according to our constitution our anonymous and every right to. Come into politics just elections on non muslims they have every right to practice their religion but we dont have the land themselves not muslim in order to participate in pakistani public life some would say thats a form of not. I dissipate an update like but yes when we have to sign a form to get except the finality of the propped up on him and all of the look but op wants to do then definition anonymous so theres no denial of that right but if then says the got constitution is wrong and they want us to change that then im afraid that that means you say theres no doubt of rights you say theres not a lot of us in the show back in 2016 when i asked him ron can your Prime Minister if he would extend equal rights to ahmed if he said and i quote all human beings have equal rights anyone who is a pakistani has an equal right yet shortly after he was elected to office last year Princeton University economists are to for me on whod been selected to serve on the Prime Ministers Economic Advisory council was asked to step down because hes a mama why did the Prime Minister stand by him why dont you stand by him if everyone has equal rights in pakistan if he was not a bystander he was in the us so lets be very when you think equal rights you have equal rights and the constitution you want to bring about just that many people on stage again just which may improve a bit and bring with it the 18th amendment we have now a bargain whats bringing about any change in the whole get. Up that we had this was unfortunate and there was a lot of volatility or discriminatory ascension it no i think that it was the choice of the government finally but i think that. The better and the fact of the matter is that. It should not be done in the way it was done if you picked up on the question we should never have taken that position the 1st gentleman is not a bystander has been living in the state so its not that it was being denied a right to be part of the government and he was being asked to be an advisor and i think that. Is one of the leading economists ok but it was targeted because i. Know the country was. He was treated needlessly and i think that it would have been handled better but he was not denied any type of it you must say it was to come as an advisor or sort of look sure in missouri thank you so much for joining me on up front. From worldwide protests over corruption and inequality to the popularity of socialist politicians like Jeremy Corbett and Bernie Sanders its hard to get away from the idea that theres something very wrong with the Global Economic system even billionaires and Business Leaders talk openly about capitalism being broken so is it really on the way out or are reports of capitalism is devised much exaggerated greece blakeley is an economics commentator at the new statesman magazine in london and author of the new book stalin how to save the world from financialization 0 argos a financial policy analyst at the Cato Institute in washington d. C. A libertarian and free market think tank thank you both for joining me in the arena how much of the recent protests that weve seen around the world in latin america in the middle east as one of the rise of politicians like Jeremy CorbettBernie SandersElizabeth Warren how much of all of that is about the explicit failure of capitalism to protect workers to share the proceeds of growth to reduce inequality gross i think specifically when youre looking at whats going on in latin america at the moment are looking at the massive pushback against International Institutions that for decades have been in place in 40 states are actually actively involved in foisting a very particular economic and political order on nations that simply democratically have rejected many of those policies as a significant source of instability and many of those states its hardly surprising that people who are basically losing the right to vote to have a say over their economy are really getting angry about this stuff when you actually look at the countries that are seeing protests that which is interesting because some of the countries that have the most violent protests right now are the ones that have been most prosperous in the last 3 decades chile is by far the richest economy a latin america inequality there has gone down which hasnt happened for example in as well or its opened up in liberalized massively it has trade agreements also unoiled going to be discontent thats driving these protests and i dont think its primarily economic disk. Discontent reflected by the figures anyway in your new book stolen you see quote we are currently living through the death throes of slow growth would you be so in the book i talk about this idea of finance led growth being a kind of model according to which economies particularly in the global north have been governed for a long time and an institutional arrangement that privileges the interests of a small class basically corporations because of financial lies theyre far more focused on their standing in wall street the city Financial Markets and they will do anything to kind of short term share price even at the expense of long Term Investment and paying their workers. So that there is a very strong for us well i mean you know it takes a lot while the system economic and political systems to break down and we are seeing the cracks i didnt see the brakes on greece i have to say you know you look over the last 30 years in the big story of the last 30 years is a massive massive reduction in extreme poverty primarily driven by 2 things one since the late ninetys seventys china opening up to the world which had 900000000 poor at the time that it opened up in a house less than 100000000 still 100000000 to many but a massive improvement in then since the ninetys india doing the same thing thats the dramatic story of the last 30 years now in terms of indebtedness in developed countries including the call to within developed countries that is a phenomenon that i am concerned about in one that is i think driven a lot of the time by regulatory restrictions that benefit the people who want assets at the expense of everybody else but you look at the developing world in inequality globally has actually gone down it is happening the china case is really interesting right because the way that china has got to the position its in today is by breaking all the rules that those International Institutions want to impose on it it has had capital controls its not Exchange Controls it has not state ownership of many of the most important institutions. In the economy not to say ownership of the Banking System of Big Enterprises mentioned in use which as that is why its been able to weather the storm but it doesnt mean i mean today the main driver has been for interest investment from other countries and the fact that foreign capital could. Movie in the main driver of chinas growth of the last 10 years has been state investment in fact has basically been the only right but a lot of a lot of the last 10 years is the smallest bit of this whole period your only point to you is the problem for your way of looking at the world but its not just socialists or people on the left who are saying capitalism has major problems whether its inequality or stagnant growth its also the International Monetary fund the World Economic forum the world bank hoard cool capitalist institutions are saying this stuff yes im a left wing plot no i mean i do