A producer from the stream in that live conversation so get your questions in there your comments in there though get him to me and ill get into the panel during the show if we can do this thing together right and just as it like i guess a sign of good faith about how engaged we are with our audience today show its a topic that actually came via twitter from feisal kirmani if we can go to my computer right now he said we asked what do you guys want to see and he said yes to cover has 2020 how will it be this year for the pilgrimage well fossil this ones for you buddy this is your show now the hotch potch is known as the largest human migration on earth its been going on for over a 1000 years in saudi arabia mecca medina but this years is going to be different than any ever because of coven 1000 and travel restrictions now we have a great panel of guests to talk about this im going to bring them in right now and ask them to introduce themselves to you joseph can we begin with you. Yeah i mean so joseph. Associate professor of forensic studies at some of the news believe a university into off. Here for the hausherr courses community sure helped our audience share right over on i want to call him mr Robert Kennedy paper and. Are in our friends in karate can you introduce yourselves place. Your im sure you are a shrub and the c. E. O. For an event the art which is a full scale we simply enter the house in the right spirit and. Hello hi im fresh so far and yet im the founder and director for a number we are this is primarily a training tool for programs going 400 number of. Excellent thank you all for being here today joseph because it covered 19 how are they going to do the hodge this year. My understanding from what ive read and obviously i havent been there my understanding is that all of the missing was to those people who are already within saudi arabia. And so there will be a very limited amount of people who are able to go to go on harsh but what is important from a most perspective is that the. Wheel will continue and this right which is an operation about almost those will be honored this year as best it can on the circumstances. I want to bring them some voices from our community right off the top here here to people who are thinking about trying to go to hotch this year in the near future what it means that they wont be able to because a copay so i had every intention of making here save save enough money to king of the jobs that lined. And then seeing how cold it may team is affecting. So much of this is in raking in the world. And how fine they surely it strikes a lot of us and has struck a lot of us straight a lot of us. You know i dont know when ill do it in the heights. You know and thats a little you know sending so disheartening but it also makes you understand that you know. We play and that allows us a players and thats what this cyrus on is so much for me its just about thinking about you know what can be more important than how and why are we as a muslim im not missing a lot are we not seeing or is there and now that u. T. Ally has 4 days i said we are not competing and they have all you know we are not allowed to make how much this area i who live here. Or he and they invite the government couldnt even be. Here. Long. She was i understand it hodges about bringing people closer to god but its also as youve written quite lovely i will say about bringing people closer to people can you tell us what were missing out by there not being the normal heart of this year. Well as youve mentioned you have about 2 and a half 1000000 people coming from all corners of the earth speaking a diversity of languages and even having different practices of the faith but youre united and just seeing the diversity thing manity. You just your mind and your heart broadened soon how little you do know and youre youre changing your perspective change i mean one of the most famous transformations occurred some 55 years ago with malcolm x. Or Malik Shabazz who went and it was all recently changed completely he had never thought that whites and could be brothers true brothers and he witnessed. Brotherhood that changes approach to Race Relations and unfortunately he was killed less than a year later. We have a question from our audience ari this is from a crash the how many times before has this pandemic or does or has pandemic or diseases affected the hodge process just if you know the answer to i know in the history of saudi arabia as a country its never been cancelled but i believe those appeared to make the 19th century that restricted but i do know there were details of that there was some actually in the 19th century there were clear or breaks of a few times there was one time when the bombing spread from with some people coming from the so called did not compromise the and there have been times before that but usually in the 10th century when it actually wasnt held for some 10 years in a row but that was more due to political circumstances at the time so its probably both of over ole 40 times that this has happened before that in those times i was actually suspended and in this instance there or people d who are who are performing arts but only small group of people who are already within saudi that are performing. I think of that question i think that was another interesting Historical Perspective of how has she changed through the years and how technology has impacted that imagine what hotch was before there were airplanes right and now there are airplanes you can get there in a matter of hours rather than days weeks or whatever well now technology is continuing to change the highs are impacted or compliment that maybe and thats where our friends in karate come in there with a Company Called make a start up and guys tell us what youve done. So the baby our stimulate is a fools you know 3 d. Simulation and all the high champ you are. The rituals as well as the sacred spaces that are there and medina. You have to remember that a large number of rooms have never before been for a holiday have some of them havent even stepped on a plane before and this is the entire nice of this image and so wed be having you better. Changing tool as opposed to a skirt would be very useful for them to do a better be prepared for the rituals themselves. And also you know to manage their expectations and do ultimately provide a better spiritual experience ok so we saw some of that theyre going to ask you to to show us that and give us the full demo of that again and i have a question for you for you do do you need one of these this is my sons or one of my kids wii are helmet you need one of these to experience this. Yes we are version we have a version for the wii are he not going to. Buy for now but very soon were coming out with a with a mobile app its all whos who and so hopefully you should be able to experience some of the same visual and audio that we have right now in the our. And for guys i want to understand this when you put on this headset you feel like youre in this world 360 when you turn a look this way you know youre seeing was there you turn this way you see was there as well as with the sound so its really an immersive experience guys can you show was the demo here outside the grand mosque in mecca. To see what what you see on your screen is the external part of the most of them and this is like replicated 100 percent exactly what it is all that theyre given the buildings are not a lot of it was these old 3 buildings we can get into the lobbies of those buildings this is the grand mosque and did i mention this sizes its like 100 percent what you see when theyre in the recent if you wanted it to be so i couldnt it was you who wanted people to get the sunni experience they get the suit feeling once they get there meant you know what to move into them going for her to end their stop asking questions so this is one of you all for appearing them what their journey ahead and these graphics and these we are and this is a recent technologies so long im thinking long use and do come up with all of that do does that what it into there so this is the entrance once you enter its got it and dont want to skim the beaches like you go to watch the tobak on the monster a minute i want to make our viewers stick around to see the mosque till the end of the show see inside the mosque are you seeing these images and i see you smiling i am what what i think about this because you have you been there have you been to that spot that they were just they are i suspect he had simon there twice and while i went far ahead tonight 25 and 4 years ago for all and i remember the clock towers and you know the socialist buildings but also. The plaza to enter its quite remarkable what theyve done thank you so much. Its beautiful thanks will. I just heard him say this is still people prepared to go so this isnt to replace the right its kind of to complement it but it this year she would do you see this is being maybe helpful for all people who maybe wanted to go in couldnt. I think its a great preparation i i think the real friends never never can do that look at it but a 3 d. Version or is. I think its almost the next best thing and i would like to try to perhaps you know recollect on memories. As well as your ear how do people try this how do people find this. Well you can we are going to be putting this up on the office store see the front of the our version very soon within the next week when were actually on the i got of the story you can actually do it on you all are on the move devices are you under device if you want. And thats good because its going to start in about 3 days right joseph thats when when the begin so this will be ready for when people come out now as i understand it the hottest big money and saudi arabia is that is that right that of their non oil g. D. P. Its almost like 20 percent religious tourism is what kind of hit do you think saudi arabia is taking this year by people not being able to go to the lodge and whats the impact of that joseph. I mean ive only read numbers on this only columnists but the numbers that ive seen. So arent 7 percent some people say that overall a lack of jovovich this d year is going to have a drastic impact on their economy and then you combine that with depressed oil prices and that is not a very good picture for for saudi arabia unfortunately but hopefully this will come back and i would actually imagine that one of the things that will happen is that next year there will d be a flood of people trying to go on the mind of the original owner up and they want how they want to restrict i mean they always have a problem with jesus but there will be many people trying to do want to again next year and show up. Some people question saudis decision to shut it down or at least that the decision should exist solely to the powers of saudi arabia rather than the larger islamic world in fact we go to my computer im going to bring up an article here it says mecca belongs to all muslims and saudi arabia shouldnt be allowed to run an incredible picture there with as well what it what do you think about the thought so that it is the shouted the saudi have too much control over this thing that so important for muslims everywhere. Well practically speaking theyve had control i mean theyre the ones who issued the visas you know that allowed people to come into the country so at a very practical level they mean they have control over who gets in and who gets out and having said that i think it would have been highly irresponsible. To. Proceed in seattle in this year with the pandemic going on weve had for example examples of religious gatherings where which have served a super spreaders and the head of anyone whos been with 2 and a half 1000000 people closely together. People of different agencies illnesses i mean so many people i was with. You know had pneumonia towards one of the hedge and thats without pandemic so i think it was the wise decision to restrict it and again it would have been highly irresponsible to allow that to occur. As usual. Joseph i was going to say so that i mean they were they didnt have a choice. I think that the way that theyve done it the alternative which theyve come up with a. Group of people actually spiritually this is the right thing to do because there are ideas that say that you know. Less than 600 people do this one cautions 14 year old in a sense and so this solution d is very effective as to whether or not they have too much control over the nations state system. So you really should do to issues of states over to their in the way that they should sit this was they got it and over ole i made friends with all those that use the service of dog i dont think theyve done a horrible job of running boston and facilitating it for the most of the world will bring another voice from our community here this is more on iran raman and shes a pounder of something called the hodge game you can see that it dot com with you he she has to say here. I think that technology can really help here lets turn to the board game it is the players. And been steeples it calls are to each other and this year in the game a lie so that people can still play and it can connect with their families and their friends especially hines and they can keep his accomplice and i think that is key here to have. Tools that come and get him he teaches spirituality and a very Strong Social component a Strong Social component sharia art is there a social component also to the v our experience that makes but together. Not in their own way we do anything to have one to treat us. And i know what you do intend to have one where they might be able to connect with other users who are there in some way or communicate with them. To be you know that connection with others this is kind of central to the heart and so we want to more readily get that connection as best as we get in this digital world. And do understand it right that you guys really kind of pivoted to this consumer model this started as a bit of a different project can you tell me about that. There are so we started in training tools and beginning of the cold period in february decided to give it to a consumer. To rehab that data so we say you know what thats developed something that we can distribute almost those around the world right before hide so they can actually see what it what the original is not playing with a smoke like. Oh yes that was a do. You know i do this in new york city. Go ahead you know or use or initially when we did redesign its war a war to be played on the almost like a 100 feet a screen so because it is for training purposes you dont do about your audience is the goal for hi jennifer usually we design it to be learned on a larger screen like an i mix i just mean she spent a couple of years you know to d. N. A. On this Little Research to do it that we are and since now there is a pandemic out there so everybody had mobile devices so it didnt show you the head was hovering on them details well be showing you more on the show that you know in these imagery so we brought it all to android and next i think in about a week tended we will have an iris origin so that is the plan for right now. You know here this day im going to ask you are here ill go jump in just a i was going to say when youre there in mecca its confusing when youre in aqaba and its your 1st time its really confusing we where is this where is that and you you turn you look at and also you find yourself somewhere so this tool or you can actually see these things beforehand and say you know this is and then also there is hundreds of thousands of people potentially around to the same time while youre trying to figure it out so i think this is actually really cool that i think people have you know has as. Shipyard. Went out you know there really is no replacement for it and i mean ultimately the cause is a journey to god and its a journey away from yourself you know show story one said very well these are the there are basically 2 steps in the lauch the 1st is a step away from yourself and the 2nd is a step towards god and the beautiful thing about this virtual hodge theyve done is that you can actually concentrate on those aspects of stepping away and outside of yourself and somebody towards god and not having to sit there and say we are is that where is that we go. With was or some are some low tech version of this before that and you know i was unaware of that will prepare people for that journey. Called power point. Also had bypass. One test out on all 1000000000 so go ahead yes and it still one moment important aspect of it is imagine that almost 98 percent of the Muslim Population there wont be able to vote for high giora so thats you were sent a so this this dog this simulation this emotion you know will give them an opportunity to actually realize and be their people for those who are going to go to even for non muslims you know and that is something that this will give them to show d. Of and you know im going to get along and for you because we spend a lot of time on was we need years just to get the actual their missions and the actual feel of it obviously it can never be like a replica of it or an alternate doing its in ghana to use east florida to some extent. To know what did you want to say there. Well i just want to go back to about transformations and there was a really interesting study 2008 out of the harvard. School Kennedy School of government and the study of the attitudes of. Children. And then you have to apply for a through a lot and system and examine the attitudes of those who applied it but did not get the visa and those who applied and didnt get the visa and perform the hajj and there they compared attitudes about different social aspects and one of the most striking features was that attitudes towards women had be changed for those who went for which there was more openness towards education and employment for women and they were a greater appreciation for their. You know for their attributes and for their contributions because and had she you know theyre seen women and then you know sometimes in prayer. And you have to sit down wherever you are and pray and could be beside a man or woman its not segregated the way were usually in the sea and you see men and women working together you see the spiritual women in front of you and i thought that was really interesting that peoples attitudes towards women were changed during the and i think this is something that we should be cognizant of because its not just malcolm x. In changing his views of racism but ordinary people changing their views towards their other or their fellow muslims so i just wanted to bring that in as well. Thank you. Because you think yeah i did let you go and lets see. If youll take us as you know was. Ok show me your own. Ok this is really we already entered into the mosque and were moving towards. You. This is all the interior also it and this is exactly what it is over there are some of the parts theyre not even completed there before this you although theres a theres some construction going on over there so we have been working with people over there in the we see how it would be completed and how theyre going to. Keep things on this the o