Hello and welcome to the program. Im how much im room for ukraine. Theres been plenty of financial and military support in europe since russia invaded last year and award thats seen as a Battle Ground between east and west. But keepers looking for support on another front to a country once joined with russia in the soviet union, and now wants to join the European Union, sharing the economic Trading TravelUnemployment Benefits enjoyed by member state powerful e figures such as your p and commission present. Ursula wonderland back ukraines desire. But making it become a reality is proving far from simple. Not everyone shares or enthusiasm. There are worries about the price tag had the impact on existing Member States, as well as corruption and ukraine. And how and large the you would function in the future. Lets take a quick look at where were talking about. The ukraine is here in the center of europe, bordered by russia and bella roost, as we see here. The u is made up of 27 countries, extending right across the continent. Ukraine shares of border with several e, u Member States. Ukraine. Its possible membership of the you is one of the discussion points at a summit of the European Political Community thats taking place in the spanish city of grenada. From where sonya go, you go reports. The 1st day is the announcements of the arrival of the ukrainian president followed the minutes. The lensky is assigned, that the issue of ukraine and its place among europe is very much at the center of these talks as well. Course there are other issues such as migration, but the ongoing role in ukraine is certainly one of the topics that is being discussed today. Normally, also in connection with the enlargement of the European Union subject that has been discussed quite a bit alongside with allowing molto and georgia and expanded version of the European Union. Now there are number of issues at risk and no mention of course there all the security issues. And while european leaders, the leaders of the European Union, have expected to continue that support the ukraine and the war against russia. There is also perhaps a less, a kind of in c z ask them for allowing ukraine into the European Union itself. While this has been spearheaded by france and germany. And of course, mentioned by the European Commission president sniff ones, a lion who said in Parliament Last month that ukraines place was in the union. There are a number of full mileage sees that are expected to take place before it can happen, even though there are reports of formal talks already occurring as soon as december still there is less than few c as in from other Member States as to what this would entail and the accountability that would need to happen. There is also the question of issues such as agriculture. Crane is a major, a agricultural producer, as well. That might come to class with other countries and their own worries about how that would conflict with their own Agricultural Industries as well as know. Forget also that negotiate seem to come in Agricultural Policy and the European Union was us normally a complex issue here that will be Member States that will be reluctant to perhaps, to open that up again. So when youve got you go, ill just sarah granada inside story. All right, lets go ahead and bring in our guest in berlin is alana perk of being co co chair of the trans Atlantic Task force for ukraine fellow with the German Marshall Fund and former Ukrainian Finance Ministry advisor in brussels. Is peter cliff, editor of brussels report. A, you an online news magazine, and then rome is daniella rivera. Professor at the center for high defense studies, part of the a time, ministry of defense. Shes also a former president of the european piece research association, a warm welcome to you all. And thanks so much for joining us today on inside story daniella, let me start with you today. If a decision is made to open form on the go sions for ukraine to join the you. How politically fraught will that process be . Well the, this probably be definitely the that a while of them to, for a point to go to implications. So obviously there is a future level consideration to be made because its not so easy for account free any country to be part of the European Union. So there are a bunch of for my procedures to be taken into account of the same time that theyre also going to go to consider restaurants because the us always try to expand its bull the. So for strengthening security and for a building, a least still 5 peaceful enables us for sure. It will be a very complicated process which will require a big consensus. And these are the men, the state so beautifully. And this is probably the most problematic. Think elena, ukraine got you candidate status in 2022. Thats a process that has taken a lot longer for other countries on the waiting list. Ukraine essentially jump the q. I want to ask you 1st. If that is fair. And i also want to ask you from your vantage point, could we see a shorter timeline for ukrainian membership in the u to right . Ukraines you accession process is obviously very complex, political and technical undertaking, but it doesnt have to be a lengthy one as here, right . So i mentioned to crane received a fast truck b u kind of a c status, and it was also seen by many as a goal that will take years to achieve. Yet ukraine received the status just months after it says submitted its formal application. And though, although you membership for full accession is much more complex and vicious undertaking, ukraine havent been, has been paying the highest price for the year, can values for freedom and for democracy it has been proving again and again, since the revolution of dignity to, for the 1040. 00 in thought it is ready to fight and ready to die for these values. Moreover, speaking about the married based approach to you can of the steps for crane and about the fairness thats you refer to. It is fair because the crane has been making very significant progress on the reform truck. It has been complying with the 7 conditionality of the European Commission that have been put forward a due to end the tide to credit. So there you integration more over, less frontier crane past another, a package of legislation to bring it closer to the you. And it does need a fast track procedure. But most important for you its, its the political will, that needs to be there and the obstacles to ukraines membership. And these, you are largely political and the countries behind them particularly hungry. And then slovakia no longer comply with your can values. They do not belong to, they are confirmed the and shouldnt have say in this process. So i would say that its up to a word, democratic allies in the European Union to put pressure on these Member States, and to, to have them seized, blushing ukraines full integration. And then you obviously, lena, it is very controversial still. And i do want to ask you more about the package of legislation that was passed in ukraine. But 1st i want to go to peter peter, even a formal negotiations for ukraine to join the you were to begin later this year. This is not a short process. I mean, you heard alana talk about the political obstacles that lay ahead when it comes to joining the e. U. How difficult could all of this become and, and from your vantage point, do you think it could become a reality . Or i think indeed at this point, its still very unrealistic and only uh today we have the former Commission President as uncle duke are coming out and saying thats a new korean is, is very corrupt according to him. And this is something those of course confirmed by international on the rankings. But he also said that we should not give our friends, and he considers ukraine to be a friends, rodney, so we, we should not give our friends false hopes. Uh so um, you know, behind the scenes diplomats say that the west is trying to sort of square to circle they want to give you create and hope they want to send material positive signals. But at the same time, in the reform process and ukraine still, it will take a lot of time. Then you have a um, what this potential membership of ukraine really have been given this much consideration were not for the russian invasion of ukraine. Is that the political reality behind all of this right now . It can be a political reality, but at the same time is this strangely difficult because the kitchen was saying before, there are a lot of political configuration to be made. And uh, uh for sure. Uh the, the configuration of uh, lets see the reactions with the other countries and the bottom piece on the which the. Busy the space to are both playing a role actual. So for sure, the configuration of the some be surely for my submission can be done. And obviously as i was saying before, a format for features can also be stops. Probably they may style to in the future or not in the future, but at the same time. And its not just and id say no to my team process because i see many, many difficulties along the line. Alana you were talking before about a package of laws that have been passed in ukraine to meet the criteria to join the you. I want to ask you about that because there is a lot of concerns by other Member States. If the criteria to join the you has actually been met at what else needs to be done. One of the big concerns of course, is battling corruption. So what is centrally has been passed that you are referring to and how can you crane . I assure you Member States that they are indeed ready to meet the criteria to. Well, 1st of all, disagree with the statement thats ukraine is so corrupt that it cannot be a member of the issue. Ukraine again, has been making significant progress on this path. And there are reasons to believe that the reports of the assessments have you cranks progress on the past of complying with 7. The European Commission can smell it, is will be positive for which means that the, the progress we have been making is consistent with our commitments and consistent with the, with the requirements. Thats a, thats a crane, has some committed to, to comply with a we also believe that ukraine is currently much more transparent than many european Member States. The peer can countries that are members of the you can union the package to the legislation that was recently passed and the clinging paula months of again brings the crane closer to you by closing some of the loopholes, corruption loopholes. Its also a opens declaration as the declarations of official, so between public and this is due to the Civil Society as pressure. And so, and the work of the Civil Society, whether your premium government that became possible and its a significant achievement. The Political Party reporting is now public and theres a lot, a lot of progress on the anti, all of our causation friends, i can, i can say, with confidence, thoughts of the, all the guards thats have been influencing ukraines policy making and economic relations until recently. Have been removed from these processes and this is, this is the progress that were very proud of. Peter, um, from the kind of talk that weve been hearing from brussels, it almost makes it sound like ukraines membership is a done deal. I wanna ask you why that is the case, and i also want to ask you, what are you members . Member leaders saying privately about all this, whats being discuss behind the scenes as well . If you, if you listen to chevrolet, michelle, we, whos the chairman of the European Council of number of states. He mentioned the dates, i think it was 2013 for you creating to, to enter right now. I mean, this is merely expressing hope, you know, theres no consensus whatsoever about dates and so behind the scenes and countries or splits they, they, you know, they also have to reckon with electra. Its that, or lets say less than enthusiastic about welcoming any country. The west of balkan, so come to mind a, so certainly a country that is coordinating at war with, with, with russia. But, i mean, those are realities. Of course, its good to see in the news that people have to step down over a Corruption Scandal is in ukraine. I think that the typically that means that something is done about it. So lets be positive here. And maybe the war mostly war brings out only negative things, but perhaps in this case it may sort of send the electro shock to, to the ukranian system and, and maybe uh, supports those people that want a genuine reform a. So i think its important to remain up to mistake. Theres definitely great opportunities for your crane. But um yeah, as i mentioned behind the scenes diplomats are mostly working out on giving you creating some kind of comforts. I dont think we can expect any, any hearts commitments, any heart promises but likely is that the European Commission will be the most. Um, lets say friendly to ukraine in this respect. But just like its very friendly towards the west americans and it will be the number of states that the ultimately will need to do the dirty work and then say despite everything, no, youre not ready yet. Mm daniela. Since a full you membership is not an easy process to undertake even under the best of circumstances. Are there potentially any other options that have been discussed by you members . Perhaps another type of roadmap uh, something that could maybe lead to a gradual integration of ukraine into the you as well if we restore angels something similar to the road map that for example, the western ball comes as a leaving and how still leaving. But these subsidies ation enough location process. You may be able to enter them all the probably um his oh is that also true that to an inquiry . No, as being included in the, in the, or be a neighbor of the police in the boss to retrieve a, obviously for jewels less outcomes that were expected until the defense was to gradually build a stronger relationship with this comfortably. Those countries, uh, and so the defense east that among these big communities of neighbors on the phone countries were actually interested in getting closer to you and ukraine is a for sure one of this, a role model can obviously be considered the, it can be, it is one of the, the, lets say to Police Report or Diplomatic Solutions that are usually considered because it is gradual, he takes more time and in the meantime, many issues can be also managed to, um, but i found the speaking. I dont think that you crannies interested into these kinds of roadmap because of all and i will saying is a stays necessary to to be foster from the point of view of ukraine sold in east a kind of these kinds of solution wouldnt be offered. Im not sure that it wouldnt be very much welcome. Bye bye. You cranium privacy. Then probably it is one of the possible solution. They probably better than the the, the, the long starting process. All the phone stuff wouldnt take more and more time, but again in so sort of deep romantic um solution which doesnt solve but every seeing good can just and manage things in the initial term. Its elaina. Let me ask you about what daniella was saying. Um, do you think that ukraine would accept another type of roadmap or more gradual using into membership of e u because there have been ukranian officials who would have said that they would not accept the 2nd tier as they see it membership that they want to be full members of the you and they want that to happen as expeditiously as possible. I yes, i believe your client will not accept this option. We really have no time to waste of you. Membership is absolutely necessary as soon as possible for many reasons. First of all, it would speed up an enhanced ukraines post for recovery. It will assist the country in dealing with the aftermath of russian genocide and russian mass destruction of the country that has been going on for one and a half year. Your membership would also bring ukraine closer to the cutting Edge Technologies that would make recovery more Cost Effective and speedy. It would give us access to investments about what again, enhanced the countries prospects for recovery and development of more over in the conditions when the u. S. Government has in crisis when the supports for ukraine from the us side is largely threatens and we have no clarity as to what will, what will happen to us uh, policy in terms of supporting ukraine. It is very critical to have the European Countries to have that you take the lead in this process. We need your brain to be as close to the european allies as possible at the moment. But, but i want to emphasize that to ukraine brings so much to the table that its, its value the value of its membership and the you is much greater than and you complexity of succession process. And while the youre in for your been struggling with your skeptical moods within the you, ukraine demonstrates 9 to 2 percent of of supports Popular Support for the countries membership. And its much higher than in many of the european members in, if you remember, steam ukraine brings to the table as you mentioned, competitive since it brings to the table, the experience of building a strong democratic infrastructure, Democratic Institutions in the time for doing the war. All of his experience can and should be utilized by other u Member States. Then the other, you heard elena, theyre talking about what she says are the ad