Sackur. Germany is yours rhian and power, but how will early in use that power over the next few years . Europes. The make up of the next governing coalition has yet to be decided and there are strategic uncertainties as well. How far does berlin will to push eu integration, and how wide could transatlantic differences become . My guest is david mcallister, a political ally of ms merkel, and chairman of the european pa rliaments of ms merkel, and chairman of the European Parliaments foreign affa i rs European Parliaments Foreign Affairs committee. How bold is berlin prepared to be . David mcallister at the European Parliament in brussels, welcome to hardtalk. Thank you. Lets begin with the notion that the European Union has been wrestling with some ofan union has been wrestling with some of an existential crisis for the few yea rs. Of an existential crisis for the few years. Do you think the European Union has now emerged from that crisis, or is it still in the middle of it . Well, the last years were not easy for the European Union. That is obvious. But i think brexit and other incidents were a wake up call for the 27 Member States, and i believe the European Union is now facing towards a better future, and you can also see in the recent polling that the approval rates for the European Union membership is going up in the 27 Member States. Strong europe needs a strong germany, and right now, of course it is short term, but right now there isnt even a real german government, and no clarity about what is that governing coalition is going to look like. That is a problem, isnt it . Yes, but this happens after elections. The german voters decided about the composition of a new German Parliament in september. Now we are busy forming a new government. It will probably be a four party government, with the cdu, the csu, the liberals and the greens. Hopefully the Coalition Negotiations will be concluded before christmas. I hope we will then have a strong and stable government in berlin. Well, it will not be as strong and stable as people anticipated. That is clearly the result of an election where the cdu, your party, suffered a real reversal. The results took the cdu csu vote down from eight points to 33 , from over 40 before. Your number of seats is down. And breathing down the necks of the mainstream parties is a far right group, the afd, who got i2 of the vote. Suddenly Angela Merkels leadership in germany, her dominance of germany, doesnt look like it looked a few months ago. Well, of course my political parties, the cdu and the csu were hoping for a better result in september, but the german electorate decided to give us a little more than 32 . But we have shown responsibility since then. We are ready to form a government again. Our Coalition Partner dropped out of the coalition 80 minutes after polling stations had closed. I do not think that was a wise move. The only option now is to try this so called jamaica coalition, with the liberals and the greens, which will be challenging. For russ in the cdu, one thing is clear. We will not co operate in the co operate with the far left or the far right in the german bundestag. So this is the only option we have. I was sad to see the alternative to dorsch lined become the third Strongest Party in the bundestag. Alternative for deutschland. We must be very sure that the bundestag does not become a platform for racism and extreme nationalism. Would you accept the point made by pascal lamy 80 weeks ago that what we have now is an Angela Merkel who has emerged from the entire electoral process politically weakened, and the anti European Forces in germany have gained ground. But that together, and your opening remarks about your belief that europe can now move forward , belief that europe can now move forward, that of the nissan is going to be hamstrung by a much weaker sense of Angela Merkels leadership and germanys leadership . That assertion is going to be. Well, i do not agree with pascal lamy. Angela merkel has been elected for a fifth time as the head of a national government. You will not find many similar cases in the western world. We knew this would be a challenging election. I am sure we will have a sta ble election. I am sure we will have a stable government before christmas. I would also like to point out that despite the 13 that the afd got at the election, this means 85 and more germans in germans voted in favour of pro european parties. There is a strong pro eu consensus within the german political system. Beyond the coalition of the csu, cdu, the greens and the liberals, also the social democrats, they are interested in bringing a European Union forward and germany will continue to play an active role with the European Union as we have done over the past decades. That sort of boilerplate rhetoric, lets get down to specifics. You have a french president , Emmanuel Macron, who has laid out a vision of what he calls the historic reconstruction of europe and the eurozone. He is talking about very ambitious things. A finance ministry, the ability to impose eu wide taxes. Get sharing within the European Union. These are all things which are highly controversial within germany, but which more particularly are rejected by the free democrats, who will now be an instrumental part of the governing coalition, as you have just laid out. So i return to this point. Germany cannot show the leadership alongside Emmanuel Macron that many pro europeans were hoping for. We have heard two very important speeches on the future of europe in the last few weeks. 0ne important speeches on the future of europe in the last few weeks. One is the speech of president micron. The other wasjohn claude the speech of president micron. The other was john claude junkers state of the union speech. I have looked closely at both speeches and i would say that 80 , perhaps later , we have Common Ground. If you look at the german french cooperation, that has always been the driving force in the European Union, and i am confident there are a lot of elliptical issues on which paris and berlin can closely co operate and it comes to the future of europe. Political issues. Cooperation in defence and security, strengthening the eus external borders, strengthening the coastguard, this cooperation on the fight against terrorism, and also, we agree that if we want to keep ourjoint currency, the euro, sustainable, we will have to strengthen the economic and monetary union, and we are ready to discuss many of the french proposals, and i would also say that we have a lot of things in common. Where i am of a different opinion and Emmanuel Macron, i do not think it is wise to create new institutions, that means a eurozone government and in parliament. We should use the existing institutions we have. Hang on. Hang on a minute. If you are not prepared to buy macrons point about i think what the experts call variable geometry, and that is the deeper integration in the eurozone, then as usual, the eu can only travel at the pace of its lowest members. And if we see all of the scepticism now from eastern europe, from poland, hungary, the czech republic, essentially, if you are not prepared to expect the multitier, multispeed europe of Emmanuel Macron, you are not going to get anything changed at all. I dont like using the term multispeed europe, buti all. I dont like using the term multispeed europe, but i would prefer multispeed europe, but i would p refer to multispeed europe, but i would prefer to talk about Different Levels of integration, and the heads of government of the eu 27 made this clear at their meeting in rome, at the 60th anniversary of the rome treaty, that this is the way to go. Certain Member States want to deepen the european integration and we should be able to do so when it comes to defence and security, when it comes to cooperation within the schengen area, but also within the eurozone area. What i was trying to point out is thatjohn claudejunker was right in his state of the year it was right in his state of the year it state of the union speech, the euro is not just it state of the union speech, the euro is notjust the currency of the eurozone, it is the currency of the whole European Union, apart from the uk, which is leaving, and denmark. Soi uk, which is leaving, and denmark. So i would prefer to use existing european institutions instead of creating new ones like euros in parliament. And as a german i also see the necessity that we have to develop the rescue mechanism for the euro into the european monetary fund. 0ne euro into the european monetary fund. One thing is very clear. It is not only a point from the german liberals but also from my party. We will not accept demutualisation of debts. Ica of Common Ground with french president micron and i am sure that fringe of this and can be combined with german pragmatism to keep the european engine going. Briefly, on that one point, you have just said clearly that you will not accept the mutualisation of debt. That is a red line, is it . That means there will be a severe brake on the deep economic, monastery in fiscal integration that juncker and indeed macron envisaged. The germans by going to break on that, is that clear . This was a clear vision in the election manifesto for the cdu and csu. It was also similar position coming from the liberal party. So i dont know about red lines, but i think this is a clear german position which our partners in the eurozone will have to accept. Lets talk about other issues. I wa nt to lets talk about other issues. I want to get onto brexit in a moment, but before we get to brexit, do you think we are not sufficiently aware of the degree to which there is a new set of fragmentation is inside the European Union, which are dividing the old western european members from the newer members in the east of the union . I am thinking of the so called visagrad countries, poland, hungary, the czech republic, you could add a few more. They are very unhappy with much of what they hear coming from the centralised institutions in brussels. I think they are beginning to feel that they are being frozen out of the Decision Making process. Are being frozen out of the decisionmaking process. Well, a European Union with 28 Member States, or in future with 37 Member States, or in future with 37 Member States without the united kingdom, isa states without the united kingdom, is a complicated organisation. 27. Undoubtedly. But if you look at the history of the eu, six Member States, nine, 12, 15, it has always been challenging. Europe always lives on from the willingness of the Member States to find compromises. Yes, there are different views on migration between the west and the east. Hang on. It is easy to say it is just about migration. It is also about you, well, not you personally, but the brussels is telling the poles that in terms of their treatment of their judicial re entering constitution, they are behaving outside the parameters of european values. Judiciary and their constitution. The eu is more than a single market. It is a community of values. 0urjoint values our democracy, the rule of law and other important values. And if one country is in danger of violating these fundamental principles, it is not only fairer, it is also an obligation of the commission to investigate this thoroughly. This is exactly what the commission is doing according to our joint treaties. How would you characterise the state of brexit negotiations . Well, i still believe that brexit is a historic mistake, but i have to accept the decision of the british people and the uk government. We are in the middle of these negotiations. We all knew this would not the easy. We have all entered unchartered territory. The clock is ticking. We will have to concludes the negotiations on a technical level at the end of 0ctober technical level at the end of october 2018, so this gives us now 11 months to not only settled the british withdrawal but also the cornerstones of the future relationship. Hopefully at the European Council in december, the heads of government will agree that sufficient progress has been made so we can start the second phase of the negotiations. You say hopefully. Do you think that will come to pass . Do you think that will come to pass . Do you think that will come to pass . Do you think the uk government has a coherent strategy, for a start . At the last European Council the heads of government stated sufficient progress had not been made, but they also showed readiness to prepare for a decision to be taken in december. But it now depends what the uk government will deliver. I think a speech of the Prime Minister in florence was important in setting the tone. The Prime Minister made clear that the uk will honour all its financial obligations. What we now need is to translate this promise into a concrete and Firm Commitment to actually settle all the financial obligations. And if we can do this within the next weeks, and david davis and Michel Barnier are working on this, then i am positive we can see this sufficient progress achieved. Yes, but they are miles apart. In the florence speech theresa may claimed she was making a major effort at reaching out by saying, you know, we will pay our budget obligations through to 2021, which amounts to 20 billion euros. The uk government is giving to brussels as financial settlement but the message from brussels is it has to be 60 billion. So you tell me how you bridge the gap. |j to be 60 billion. So you tell me how you bridge the gap. I dont think it is helpful discussing concrete sums at this point. What we accept from the uk. Time is running out, mr mcallister. When will it be helpful to get specific . What we expect from the uk is to settle all its financial obligations with regard to the eu budget to other european bodies and funds and also to other eu related facilities and investment programmes. And once we have seen a Firm Commitment of the uk government to settle these obligations then it makes sense to actually calculate the concrete and mount what the british withdrawal will cost. Thats the way we should go ahead, instead of discussing facts and figures which at the moment nobody can really acknowledge. Well, i suppose in the end it comes down to trust and clarity on both sides. Here is something that a colleague of yours, manfred vaber, senior conservative german mep, he said there is a big question about who the eu should call in london on brexit. He said, who speaks for the British Government, theresa may, boris johnson, david davis, he went on about boris johnson, johnson, david davis, he went on about borisjohnson, saying reading his attacks against his own Prime Ministers position, he talked of quarrels, political contradictions and he ended up saying, please, sack johnson, because then we might get clear a nswers johnson, because then we might get clear a nswe rs as johnson, because then we might get clear answers as to who is responsible for the british position. Do you share those views . You know, iwould prefer position. Do you share those views . You know, i would prefer not to comment on domestic british politics. We will accept the uk government as it is composed. Theresa may is the Prime Minister. She is in charge of the uk government. Yes, but the point Manfred Weber is getting too is, honestly, you are a significant figure at the European Parliament, watching this closely, do you honestly believe theresa may is truly in charge right now . She is the Prime Minister and as long as she is the Prime Minister she will be treated as a Prime Minister. And i havent read any news that she wont be the Prime Minister. So i will accept the Prime Minister, the foreign minister and also david davis, who is doing, from the british point of view, a good job negotiating this british withdrawal with Michel Barnier. Let me once again underline, we in europe didnt ask for this divorce. It is a british decision to leave the European Union. We want to make the best out of this situation. Brexit will never be a win win situation. It wont be a win lose or lose win situation. It will be a lose lose situation. It will be a lose lose situation for both sides. Lets try to make the best out of this divorce which we didnt ask for. 0k, some quickfire points before we finish, a lot to get through. Catalonia, you as chair of the European ParliamentForeign Affairs committee have been watching a very closely. S