Now on bbc news its hardtalk with stephen sackur. Welcome to hardtalk, i am stephen sackur. The Trump Presidency has seen us politics become ever more polarised and partisan. But in the words of one commentator, you aint seen nothing yet. The democrats decision to begin impeachment proceedings based on emerging details of President Trumps dealings with the president of ukraine has intensified the Political Warfare in washington. My guest is anthony scaramucci, former trump cheerleader, briefly his Communications Director and now an arch critic. Is impeachment a trap for the president s opponents . Anthony scaramucci in new york city, welcome to hardtalk. It is great to be back with you. Democratic leadership, after a lot of agonising, has decided to launch impeachment proceedings, impeachment investigations into resident donald trump. Do you believe they have made the right decision . I dont really think it was necessarily a right or wrong decision. I sort of feel it was the only decision. The Inspector General whistleblower report is out. I read through it this morning. There are irrefutable facts in the situation which would require any patriotic person to act in the way that the democrats are acting. I dont think it was a right or wrong decision, to me, ora dont think it was a right or wrong decision, to me, or a political strategy. The president has done something traitorous and criminal stop a result of which now, the way the constitution was set up, noble people have to act in a situation like this and so to me it is not a political thing as much as it is a right or a wrong thing. There you go. You have already set yourself up asjudge and jury, go. You have already set yourself up as judge and jury, declaring that the president has acted in a criminal, traitorous way. Of course, you are notjudge, you are notjury. Why dont you and all the rest of the president s critics wait for events to unfold, listen to witnesses, read all of the evidence, before drawing conclusions . Well, listen, i am obviously entitled to my opinion. There is a First Amendment right in our country so i am giving you my opinion and my conclusion. I am am giving you my opinion and my conclusion. Iam not am giving you my opinion and my conclusion. I am not on the jury and as you know from an impeachment process , as you know from an impeachment process, there are 100 people who will have that opportunity if the impeachment enquiry gets voted on and gets pushed over into the senate. I am giving you my opinion but if i was on the jury and senate. I am giving you my opinion but if i was on thejury and i senate. I am giving you my opinion but if i was on the jury and i was looking at a body of evidence like that, i would looking at a body of evidence like that, iwould be looking at a body of evidence like that, i would be very concerned if i we re that, i would be very concerned if i were the president of the united states. 0k, well, idsa there is some concern in the white house but i am guessing you have basically seen pretty much what the rest of americans have been allowed to see i guess there are some concerns in the white house. The conversation between Volodymyr Zelensky and donald trump, id guess you have seen the whistleblower complaint. You have not seen, i have not seen it either, you have not seen any clear, explicit evidence that donald trump tide favours he sought from the ukrainians to the release of us aid, or maybe you have seen it, you tell me. I probably havent seen more than what you have seen but i think i do have an inside track here, despite the president s recent tweeting about and against me. I did work for him for a year. Very close personal friends with michael cohen. And if you look at the body of the evidence and you know the president s personality as well as i know the president , it is in there, stephen. What is in there . There was, despite the rhetoric on the republican side, a quid pro quo exchange. There was a delay of the Vice President going to the ukraine until we could see how the new ukrainian president was going to act, based on the president s suggestions. If i may act, based on the president s suggestions. Ifi may say act, based on the president s suggestions. If i may say so, anthony scaramucci, everything you have just said is anthony scaramucci, everything you havejust said is inference. I carefully used the word explicit. Everything you have just inferred is absolutely not explicit in the transcripts that have been released thus far. That is why i think we need a full impeachment enquiry and thats why we need witnesses and people inside the white house under oath to explain what actually happened. Again, i am oath to explain what actually happened. Again, iam giving oath to explain what actually happened. Again, i am giving you oath to explain what actually happened. Again, iam giving you my experience with the president and the way he handles himself and the inferences you are talking about this is not a guy who is going to explicitly Say Something that black and white because he is used to this sort of nefarious activity so to this sort of nefarious activity so he will split it the way he is use to doing it. Thats used to. Used to. I believe i will be proven in terms of my analysis of these fa cts in terms of my analysis of these facts but i appreciate your scepticism and i understand your scepticism. Crosstalk. The facts will unfold and i hopefully you will invite me back. But this guy will not be the resident going into the november 2020 re election. He will not be the candidate for the Republican Party. It strikes me as you talk about how clear you think the case is four impeachment proceedings this time around. I have had this similar language before over the last two, maybe getting on for three years, from democrats and you are not a democrats, but democrats have said for a long time that given donald trump was involved in the various activities with the russians, so called collusion over the release of information, they said there was a cage for impeachment and then guess what . Robert miller wrote his long report and that clamour, cacophony, for an impeachment proceeding, it died away. Does make robert mueller. Robert mueller. Allan if you are happy to have me on the show to discuss that, i can tell you that the president cant even collude with his own staff and therefore there was no collusion with the russians. Does make if you are happy to have me on the show to discuss that. I believe that mr mueller made the right conclusion. This is a totally different case but again, i didnt become a critic of the president or switch my view on the president or switch my view on the president because of what is going on right now with ukraine. Where i started the slope of criticism is he is out there, man, he is not listening to his staff, he is firing people left and right. 81 people have left the administration, he is a man alone in the white house seeking his own counsel, he is a rank bully with very low self esteem and maybe the stress and pressure of thejob or may and maybe the stress and pressure of the job or may be other things are reflecting hisjudgement the job or may be other things are reflecting his judgement or personality, but for me, we could stay on the ukrainian thing if you wa nt stay on the ukrainian thing if you want but in general, this is now a suitability issue for many people who have worked for him, people who are inside the white house, people who are up on capitol hill, and u nfortu nately, who are up on capitol hill, and unfortunately, stephen, there are a lot of these people because their lives are tied to this man, they are lacking the fortitude and the courage to speak out about what they are seeing and so hopefully this will open a window for those people to do that. Well, you keep telling me about the president s character and how well you know him. I wanted to talk about the psychodrama with your relationship with President Trumpa your relationship with President Trump a little later in the interview that you have talked about it so much, lets get into it right 110w. It so much, lets get into it right now. It is something we cant avoid. The truth is, you were the president s biggest, loudest cheerleader for years. You president s biggest, loudest cheerleaderfor years. You begged up his campaign for the presidency in 2016. His campaign for the presidency in 2016. Bigged up. You briefly served him as an ill fated Communications Director but even after you are gotten rid of after 11 and years, you continued to be slavishly loyal. The truth about you and donald trump s donald trump hasnt changed his spots, you have made one of the most bizarre u turns in political history, but donald trump hasnt changed. Bizarre u turns, 0k, trump hasnt changed. Bizarre u turns, ok, that is an interesting way to frame it. The fact that you just said on the show are contrary to what the president said on twitter so what the president said on his twitter account, that he barely even knew me, and i barely even knew me, and on his twitter account, that he barely even knew me, and had absolutely nothing to do with his electrical electoral success. Crosstalk. Let me just, electrical electoral success. Crosstalk. Let mejust, if i may, eliminate you on a few of the things you explained and apologised for on behalf of donald trump. The tape, he was boasting about his abuse of women. You didnt break with him then. When he talked about the cha rlottesville then. When he talked about the Charlottesville Neo nazi protests and he said there were good people both on the side of the neo nazis and the people protesting against them, you didnt walk away from him then. I did. Crosstalk. You didnt walk away from him. When he described countries that immigrants coming to american were coming from work, i cant even use the word, you didnt walk away from him then. You are didnt walk away from him then. You a re loyal to didnt walk away from him then. You are loyal to President Trump throughout. You are being a little unfairand throughout. You are being a little unfair and that is not exactly factual. 0n the charlottesville situation, i totally denounced that, you can find a tape of me on George Stephanopouloss show, that is a very vivid memory for me, because that was after i was ousted and fired from the white house. I was on georges show totally denouncing that. Forgive me, i spoke to you last year and i discussed that and many other issues and you remained steadfastly loyal to donald trump. You said to me, stephen, i tell you what, judge a man by his actions, not by his words, that is what you said to me. You are usually a very fairguy so give said to me. You are usually a very fair guy so give me an opportunity to speak. I definitely said that i could not ever defend the racist stuff that came out of President Trumps mouth. I absolutely said that. You told me you cannot say that. You told me you cannot say that donald trump is a racist. And i still maintain that. I feel that he is objectifying people to such an extent that you are not racist against a black or a white car, you just look at those two things as objects and so unfortunately for the president , that is what he does, he looks at people as objects. I still maintain that. But let us go back over the list of Different Things that you said that up when you are talking about the mexicans as rapists, i was not with the president on the campaign then. I was a jet bush supporter. You are fast forwarding into those other categories of things, what i said to the show prior and i have maintained this i tried to defend him the best i cooked jeb this i tried to defend him the best i cooked jeb bush. Does the best that i could, and i did a balancing test. If i am at fault for that, i haveissued test. If i am at fault for that, i have issued that apology and i can ta ke have issued that apology and i can take you and your viewers my Washington Post editorial where i said, you know what . I got this wrong. And i am man enough to admit that i got something wrong. So frankly, i am that i got something wrong. So frankly, iam not that i got something wrong. So frankly, i am not a political politician, when you said i did a u turn, iam politician, when you said i did a u turn, i am at american entrepreneur. And american entrepreneur. And american entrepreneur. Unfortunately, sometimes you have to fire a person so sometimes you have to fire a person so for me it is not a political person as much at a as much as it is person as much at a as much as it is and analytical decision. Person as much at a as much as it is and analytical decision. As you made this big flip this summer and declared that you could no longer hold your tongue and you felt that donald trump was an outrage against the us political system and against the us political system and against democracy and had to be removed, you said he has gone full blown crazy. While the president may not have early stage dementia, he certainly has full blown early stage fascism. You then went on to say. Well, that is true. Lets add another one. You said you dont understand how public serva nts said you dont understand how Public Servants can see this sort of full blown insanity and not act. But the message comes back to this. Donald trump essentially, in the way he behaves, the way he puts his message out there, his impulsive decision making, he has not changed from when you were his loudest cheerleader. He really hasnt. 0k. So again, stephen, i have owned that, though. Ithink so again, stephen, i have owned that, though. I think that that is one of the criticisms that liberals would say, they will eventually say to kevin mccarthy, Mitch Mcconnell and other republicans. What i have said to people and i will say it here on your show, you have to create an offramp for people who that have a monster deadly gotten this thing wrong you want to ridicule me forgetting something wrong and you want to say that i said this at one time and now i am saying Something Different and the fa ct saying Something Different and the fact didnt change, i am actually willing to accept that. For somebody who was as close to the situation as me, to make the argument, maybe i am looking at it too closely, and i do think the facts have changed, i do think the facts have changed, i do think he is in steady mental decline, i think the departure of strong people like general kelly, he fired me, and i am being objective about this, he was somebody who was containing some of the worst elements of the president s personality. Since his departure, i think you can trace more aggressive, more full blown insanity, and more full blown mania. So again, if you wa nt to full blown mania. So again, if you want to ridicule me or point out that i got this thing wrong, i own it. But again, i am an american businessperson so one of the things that has made me a reasonably successful juvenile and that has made me a reasonably successfuljuvenile and going from a blue collarfamily to successfuljuvenile and going from a blue collar family to where i am is taking calculated risk, assessing bets, and time is getting things wrong but also having the strength of character do say wow, i really got that wrong so lets make an adaptation and change. So lets talk about what you can achieve now. In your credibility. We wa nt to achieve now. In your credibility. We want to talk to you. Emphasis on the word character. You want now, you wa nt to word character. You want now, you want to be a player in changing america. You have said. Oh, absolutely not. Thats not true. You wa nt to absolutely not. Thats not true. You want to lead a campaign. You are going from state to state, with all your media appearances, trying to persuade some republicans to get on what you call the offramp away from donald trump. But how can you do that when the Republican Party has described you as a man with zero credibility, nothing more than a disgruntled employee . How can you tell ordinary republicans across america that you are more than that . Well, first of all they dont think its fair to call me a disgruntled employee. Because you pointed out earlier in the show that i was fired two years ago and i tried to stay loyal and high minded to the president. So it would be very hard to say im a disgruntled employee, because why wouldnt they have just woken from him today after he embarrassed me like that abide me the way he did . So we can split that you just said and the gop chairwoman, the person you are referring to, the person who said i had zero credibility, the total topography of politics being what it is, was soliciting me two months mac grow demonstrated that was for campaign money. So for me, you will have to do assess my credibility. Your viewers will have to assessment credibility. But the truth of the matter is theres a lot of republicans could feel the way i do, but due to the president s bullying and due to his personality have been relu cta nt to and due to his personality have been reluctant to speak out. So if im a lightning rod for that, stephen, reluctant to speak out. So if im a lightning rod forthat, stephen, i welcome that, but im not really looking to be a player. As ive pointed out in my op ed, im accidentally into politics. I actually find the whole thing quite disgusting. There is nothing about politics that attract me, other than the fact that we have a Huge National and potential International Crisis now. The president said i wasnt part of helping him get elected, but a sort of feel that i was, given the fact that they was on his executive transition team, when you and ive just met his executive transition team, when you and ivejust met in december of 2016. So we have to correct the problem. So im willing to put my money and time and energy into doing that stop and if people think im credible thats great. If they think im not credible, ill let them decide to stop im speaking the truth. But let us talk about whats actually happening today. And as we see the democrats rallying around the impeachment proceedings, we also see republicans circling the wagons and beginning the relentless messaging that this is nothing more than a toxic partisan witch hunt. Now, im going to quote you, jim jordan, im sure your bubbly know him, republican congressman, trump loyalist, he said the othe