Transcripts For BBCNEWS Brexit Deal Votes 20240713

Substance of this vote is about. We will then move on, after that, to possibly an even more challenging vote for the government, which is on the timetabling. How much time do mps get to scrutinise this very important piece of legislation . So, thats the picture for you, and thats the picture for you, and thats what were expecting in the next half hour or so. Our chief Political Correspondent vicki young is inside the houses of parliament, in the central lobby, very close to the chamber of the house of commons, where the voting is happening. Vicki, talk us through this first vote. A bill going through parliament has various stages, the first one where it is debated is this one, mps have been talking about it all day. There is a vote and it has to get through the vote in order to progress to the next stage, which will be where mps look in detail at what the bill is about, and at that point they could perhaps try to make some changes. If this we re try to make some changes. If this were to pass tonight, and i think the government is quietly confident that they may have the numbers, it really would be the first time that mps have backed any kind of brexit deal, in this very long process, almost 3. 5 years since the referendum was held. Tonight, it would depend on labour votes, so it will depend on labour mps, many of them in constituencies where most of them in constituencies where most of the people voted for brexit, it will depend on them backing this and backing the conservative government. The government side will be trying to keep down the number of rebels, they have some conservatives who have been booted out of the parliamentary conservative party, who wont back this tonight. So, this is the first stage where the government will be hoping that the house of commons shows it does support Boris Johnsons brexit house of commons shows it does support borisjohnsons brexit deal. Now, it is along road for that bill to get through notjust here but also through the house of lords. So, it is fraught with difficulty for the government, even if it were to pass tonight. But probably even more contentious is the timetabling of it all, how quickly the government wa nts to all, how quickly the government wants to push this through the house of commons in the house of lords. As you say, vicki, it would be very significant if the government carried this second reading vote because as you say it would be the first time that the house had okayed any kind of brexit deal. But as you say, the motion on timetabling, and how they manage this debate, is likely to cause possibly more problems. How do you see that going . And to explain again, when a bill goes through parliament, it normally ta kes goes through parliament, it normally takes several weeks. On this occasion, the government wants the bit which has to be done in the house of commons with mps to be done and dusted by thursday night. Given that this is a very significant piece of legislation, as weve said, it runs to a large number of pages, mps are very upset about the fact that they feel it is being pushed through without proper scrutiny. The flipside to that argument is coming from the government and lots of conservative mps, that really, theyve been talking about this for 3. 5 years, and even though theresa may didnt get her deal through, quite a lot of this bill was what she was proposing all that time ago. Now, there are differences, of course there, but actually, lots would say, youve had enough time to discuss all of this. So, that will be the contentious point, and i think what will happen is that some labour mps will vote for the deal, for the bill, in the first vote, but they dont like the way that it is being pushed through, so, that could being pushed through, so, that could be the point where the government might come unstuck. I think that is going to be an incredibly close vote and nobody ive spoken to today is willing to call which way that is going to go. They are alljust saying it is going to be very close to double vicki, we will be back to you very shortly. Were keeping an eye on the chamber of the house of commons itself, which is fairly empty at the moment because the mps are voting. We will be back there as soon we are voting. We will be back there as soon we see any are voting. We will be back there as soon we see any kind of activity of the vote to be unready to be declared. It should take about 15 minutes or so, given the numbers voting. Lets just minutes or so, given the numbers voting. Letsjust remind minutes or so, given the numbers voting. Lets just remind you of whats going on in the chamber. Mps are voting on borisjohnsons Withdrawal Agreement bill, its purposeis Withdrawal Agreement bill, its purpose is to turn the Prime Ministers deal with the eu, his brexit deal, which is a draft treaty, into uk law. But what does it actually cover . It sets out how the uk will make so called divorce bill payments to the eu for years to come. It talks about how customs and regulations will work in practice between britain and Northern Ireland. It also refers to a new independent Monitoring Authority that will be set up to safeguard citizens rights. Those are just three areas for you, there are many more, of course. That gives you a sense of why lots of mps think they need far more than three days to go through that in some detail. It is such an important piece of legislation. Lets talk about that, and what we are expected, with my panel. Kathryn howden from the institute for government, and we have the leader writer for the Daily Telegraph, government, and we have the leader writerfor the Daily Telegraph, and the former labour adviser as well. Good of the three of you to join us. I suppose, first of all, we need to just underlying to viewers how significant these events are. Weve been through this brexit process, a lot of people are rather punchdrunk but these votes coming out tonight are very significant . They really are very significant . They really are and also lets remember how long it has taken to get here. Theresa may tried three times to get a meaningful vote through, she did not even get to this point, she was just trying to get initial approval from the commons to be able to bring her a bill to parliament. Borisjohnson was not able to have that vote on saturday, but now he has got this second reading, the ability to try and move the legislation into the chamber and get debating it properly. So, this is really his meaningful vote. If he passes this first vote, it is a huge win for him. So, that is significant. I suppose i am bound to ask, really, do you detect among conservative mps a confidence that the second reading will go as planned, are there any real concerns that the Prime Minister might lose it . With the usual caveat that everything i say turns out to be wrong, most people are confident that it will pass the second reading. Labour will oppose but there are sufficient numbers of rebel labourmps, but there are sufficient numbers of rebel labour mps, people like lisa nandy, and independent mps, who will probably support it. So the conservatives are quite confident on that one. The problem then is the Programme Motion which follows after it. Borisjohnson has set a political goal ever since he ran for leader of getting britain out of time of 31st october, thats why it is so important. Thus, the conservatives are worried about losing control of the bill, that in the next few days, it might get so amended that it is not the thing which they negotiated. Thats why theyre very keen to keep pressure up. They will be watching for how big the second reading vote is. After that, they are really putting everything onto the Programme Motion and maintaining control of the paper. Because the problem is, of course, as we have been hinting, there will be quite a few mps who are happy to give the second reading approval, but they wont be so happy with the three days of pressured debate and curtail to debate as they see it on the bill itself . That is the nub of the issue, yes. Iagree with tim, i think there will be quite a few labour mps that cross a very big moral line for them, to throw the Prime Minister a political lifeline on brexit. But they will be worried about the Programme Motion. One of the formal advisors, current adviser, to the Prime Minister, nicki da costa, said, a bill of this magnitude needs about four weeks to be properly scrutinised. And so, three days doesnt quite cut it for people. So i think that is where the tension is going to come. But for any labourmp who tension is going to come. But for any labour mp who does break the whip across that line, this is a very big moment for them, be very clear about that. I was going to pick up on that, because for those labourmps, pick up on that, because for those labour mps, who pick up on that, because for those labourmps, who are pick up on that, because for those labour mps, who are so minded, there will be lots of colleagues putting them under a lot of pressure . There will, notjust colleagues, but wider parts of the movement, the trade union movement, as you know, very closely aligned to the labour party, workers rights, something which people are feeling very worried about, the idea that there will be a looser relationship with the eu which might imperil workers rights down the track. So the stakes are very dry. It is a big values question, notjust very dry. It is a big values question, not just about the detail, for a lot of people on the labour side and part of that movement. Are we talking a handful of mps who are in that area, half a dozen, or what is your sense . At one point Stephen Kinnock was leading a group of labourmps, kinnock was leading a group of labour mps, saying, it could be around 40. I dont think will be that you tax high. But i wouldnt be surprised if you are looking at about 10 12 mps, which would be enough to help the Prime Minister get over the line. Coming back to tim and catherine, just in terms of, lam tim and catherine, just in terms of, i am calling it a timetable motion, so i am calling it a timetable motion, so that viewers understand what we are talking about here, if it is lost, lets just say for a second that the Prime Minister gets the second reading but he fails to get his timetable, as he wishes it, where does that leave him . procedural rate, you canjust where does that leave him . procedural rate, you can just carry on because it just procedural rate, you can just carry on because itjust means that you cannot control how much time mps spend on each bet. Procedurally. There is this thing called a close a motion where you can basically say, i think we need to move on. But it means that the covenant have lost a lot of control, theyre reliant on mps voting to end each bit so it could really drag out. Their other option is to bring back another, different timetable motion which perhaps gives a bit more time to mps, but that might mean having to go and ask for a short extension. At the moment that is not what the government want to do. On the question of the extension, tim, clearly it depends on the response in brussels, but what is the thinking in the conservative party on the need for a possible short extension, and what if the eu says, actually, we will do it if you have an election or if they put conditions on it. . An election or if they put conditions on it. . Well, the an election or if they put conditions on it. . Well, the pm has said he will pull it if they lose the Programme Motion. He doesnt want an extension. It is not impossible to imagine there being one of a couple of weeks, there have been some noises around that. It depends on when the eu is willing to extend to. The eu will have to debate what happens tonight, and discuss it, and it is expected it will be till january. Discuss it, and it is expected it will be tilljanuary. But what the government ideally wants to do is to try to trigger an election. And to run an election on the theme of, we we nt run an election on the theme of, we went to the eu, we got a deal, we brought it back, but the remainers tried to stop us. So therefore we wa nt tried to stop us. So therefore we want an election on whether or not brexit itself should actually happen. I think the government is quite affable it could win that kind of election. Bear with us because i am going to go straight back into the chamber to see what is going on. Because it has filled up very nicely again. As we can see, a crowd of people including Kenneth Clarke, the father of the house, at the bottom of the frame. Getting already for this first vote to be announced. And it will be, i reckon, in a few minutes time, it is 12 minutes past seven here at westminster, so it will not be too long, i dont think, ifi will not be too long, i dont think, if i can bring vicki young back in again, who is outside the chamber for us. Just looking at these pictures, vicki, imjust for us. Just looking at these pictures, vicki, im just wondering, are you seeing any government whips or anything, any signals at all that would tell us something about how this vote might be going . No, i think theyre more relaxed, if that is the right word, about this one. I think they feel they have enough labour mps willing to pass the bill at this stage. That doesnt mean that further down the line, if we get further down the line, that they wont try and make changes to it, i think they will. But at this point, this is in principle saying, we support what is in this bill, which, to remind people, is, of course, the deal that borisjohnson to remind people, is, of course, the deal that Boris Johnson has to remind people, is, of course, the deal that borisjohnson has done with the eu. This implements it, its the legislation, the law which needs to be passed, before the uk can leave the eu. Now, as you can see, it is completely packed in there, it normally takes about 15 minutes for a vote. Borisjohnson said today Boris Johnson said today that borisjohnson said today that if Boris Johnson said today that if we had a second vote, which is timetabling the bill to make sure that it passes through this place quickly and cannot be held up for weeks, he says if the second part is not passed and the eu grants a dilated brexit owing to the end of january or even dilated brexit owing to the end of january or even longer dilated brexit owing to the end of january or even longer than he says that he will pull the bill. You cannot actually do that but what he cannot actually do that but what he can do is suspend it so it does no further. Some see that as a threat particularly may be to independent labour and conservative mps, it is ha rd to labour and conservative mps, it is hard to win in a general election if you are an independent mp. It does not happen often. So they think they are trying to focus the minds of the mps toa are trying to focus the minds of the mps to a stunning street would say, get brexit done. That has been the slogan all along but others say it would be ridiculous for Boris Johnson tojust decide would be ridiculous for Boris Johnson to just decide i cannot go along with the timetable and not even along with the timetable and not eve n a cce pt along with the timetable and not even accept a delay of two or three weeks. That is the other option. When the eu has previously granted delays under theresa may they gave two dates, one if you could get the deal through and if not here is another date. It is possible this time that they could follow a similar pattern with all of that so thatis similar pattern with all of that so that is for later after the second vote if we get to that. Here is the result. Order. Order. The ayes to the right, 329. The noes to the left, 299. The ayes have it. The ayes have it. Order for the Programme Motion to be moved formally. The question is as on the order paper. As many as are of that opinion say aye. Of the contrary, no. Division, cleared the lobby. So to underline the significance of that, 329 to 229, a majority of 30 for the second reading and that is the first time that the house of commons has given its approval to any kind of brexit deal so that is the significance of that moment. And the significance of that moment. And the vote that has just taken place. That majority may well give the government a bit of confidence about the next vote which is the one were at now, which is on the motion to manage the parliamentary timetable to bring the debate down to three days. Vicki young is still with us, and that is now under way but first of all your thoughts on that first vote . Of all your thoughts on that first vote . The government will look at that and say it is a very healthy majority, remember that Boris Johnson since becoming Prime Minister injuly johnson since becoming Prime Minister in july has johnson since becoming Prime Minister injuly has not had much success winning votes in the house of commons. So they will look at this and be pretty pleased, healthy majority of 30. The question now of course is how many of those mps they can hold onto with the more contentious prospect of having a very swift passage for the bill through the house of commons. Many mps are saying theyjust do not think it is going to allow enough scrutiny for such an important piece of legislation and earlier labour mps publicly said that they would back the second reading, but we just had but they would not be prepared to go along with the timetable. They wa nt to go along with the timetable. They want longer to scrutinise such an important of legislation so the groups we will look at for the second vote will be labour mps and also those former conservative mps he will remember were kicked out of the party, 21 of them kicked out because they voted against the government to try to prevent an ideal brexit. Many of them were not voted for the second reading because they want to make sure that there is a brexit deal. But how many are unhappy about rushing it through parliament. So there are once the government is trying to cling onto andi government is trying to cling onto and i think a word about the dup of course, the Democratic Unionist Party has been propping up the conservative government but not so much today. They are absolutely furious about the deal that Boris Johnson has done with the eu, they have not backed him in the first vote and will not back in the second and that is what makes this so much harderfor and that is what makes this so much harder for the government. They are relying on labour votes to get this through. Vicki young bout with the latest from the houses of parliament as the second vote is under way and we will be back in the chamber soon as that happens. A quick word from my panel, a majority of 30 in again a very significant, 30 may not seem like a large number when you are a minority government that has been trying to get this deal through, borisjohnson trying to get this deal through, Boris Johnson brought in trying to get this deal through, borisjohnson brought in by his party to do what theresa may had failed to do over three years. She lost some of those votes by hundreds, so this is a very significant moment for Boris Johnson but just the first stage in the bill. This is as much mps wanting to get the next stages, some will want to bring amendments and some will wa nt to to bring amendments and some will want to turn it into the kind of motion they want and obviously it all hangs on what happens next with the timetable motion. Did you expect the timetable motion. Did you expect the majority of 30 . Im going to lie and say yes i followed this debate for nine months now, maybe even ten or 11 months. And to finally do this is quite a moment. It shows that the Prime Minister has significantly changed the Withdrawal Agreement to win the support brexiteers and also of some labour mps as well. He achieved that by taking the backstop out and moving so much from the Withdrawal Agreement to the political declaration. The other thing i think has changed is that over the thing i think has changed is that overthe summer many thing i think has changed is that over the summer many mps who may have been minded to block or delay brexit have realised that their constituents are angry and they want the debate to move on. We do not know the names of which labour mps voted which way but some are sitting on majorities of around 1000 votes in leafleting areas and theyve been not by their Constituency Party than by their constituents that they want out. So notjust that by their constituents that they want out. So not just that the by their constituents that they want out. So notjust that the bill has changed but politics in the country has changed and i sense that remain are starting to test the patience of many voters. Ayesha hazarika, your reaction to that first vote . A big boat, idid reaction to that first vote . A big boat, i did not think it would pass by so many. But a big moment but now it is what comes next. Where i disagree slightly with him is i do not think that remainers will be thinking it is over now, i was at the march on saturday and people are worried about this agreement for many reasons notwithstanding not just the European Union but the union here in the United Kingdom and the consequences on that. So while the consequences on that. So while the slogan has been get brexit done and it will feel that way with this vote, it is onlyjust beginning. We will be back with you in a moment but now i would like to go to the European Parliament in strasbourg where we have been following events during the day and a corresponding adam fleming is there. We had the first vote in this parliament, a fairly hefty majority of 30. Given the parliamentary arithmetic on the second reading but all eyes are now on the second vote. What is the thinking there . Loads of diplomats have just texted me the same word and the word that they are texting is finally, finally some momentum, some approvalfrom is finally, finally some momentum, some approval from parliament for the brexit deal. They do not mean finally is and is the end of the story because everyone here and in brussels knows still many more stages of this legislation to go through and not least of course the programme of the timetabling motion that we are waiting for there. So for the eu is not a done deal at westminster yet. Someone close to the negotiating team said to me there is still the scrutiny process and there could still be as they describe them wrecking amendments that could change the substance of the deal and cause massive problems for the process. In terms of the European Parliament they will only vote on the deal themselves right at the very end when there are no chances of it being modified any further at westminster and in other words when it has gone through all the stages in the house of lords, the stages in the house of lords, the house of commons and had the seal of approvalfrom the house of commons and had the seal of approval from the queen and royal assent. So if the uk is to leave on the 31st of october than the European Parliament could be voting on this as late as thursday, brexit day itself. That is a thought and just another thing i wa nted thought and just another thing i wanted to askjust looking at the mps going through the lobbies, the house of commons filling up once again so it should not be long before we get a result. Just a question to do with the possibility of another extension and the Prime Minister earlier saying he would just pull the bill if faced with what he thinks is too long and extension agreement from the eu and he does not want that. What is the current thinking on that there . At the moment donald tusk the president of the European Council who chairs the summit of eu leaders and they are the ones who will decide on an extension, he is consulting with the leaders based on the letter Boris Johnson very unenthusiastic sent at the weekend as he was compelled to do asking for an extension to the end of january next year. He do asking for an extension to the end ofjanuary next year. He had many dates from people about this place but for now it is speculation because eu leaders are waiting to see what happens tonight and particularly with the timetable and can the government stick to this blistering timetable. In an ideal world for the eu of course all this legislation would go through and brexit date would be the 31st of october but for them the next best option would be a short delay until maybe the middle of november and after that the end of january date but then you hear people speculating that if there is a bigger problem that if there is a bigger problem that needs to be solved at westminster you might see an extension untiljune or even december, no one really knows because they are waiting to see what happens. Adam fleming, thank you very much. As we wait for the results lets bring you up to date with what is going on right now. Parliament right now is voting on the government proposal of a three day timetable to consider this very complex brexit bill, Opposition Mps have been critical of the shortened time frame and some conservatives as well to scrutinise the legislation. Borisjohnson says he would abandon the bill and push for a general election if mps vote down his proposed timetable. If that does not happen. The rest of the league at this point is looking like this, on wednesday amendments to the bill would be late and chosen by the speaker such as plans for a Customs Union. Thursday will see mps given the chance to vote again on the bill with any new amendments that have been attached. And if it all gets wrapped up in the house of commons the bill then heads to the house of lords for approval. Again just to underline if the vote tonight on the timetable is rejected the government then has little hope according to all of the observers of competing brexit by the 31st of october which of course is the pledge made by the Prime Minister. So with that in mind as we wait for the second vote result our economics editor faisal islam and reality check correspondent chris morris are here. Just the importance of the second vote and what it could do to the process . Vote and what it could do to the process . The idea of trying to get this entire piece of legislation through in three days is pretty unprecedented. 400 plus pages of the bill plus the accompanying documents, very difficult for mps to documents, very difficult for mps to do in that time and you consent during the debate today real anger that the government was trying to push through at such pace. If it stretches into next week then really youre running out time because it is not just about youre running out time because it is notjust about ratification on the side of the channel both in house of commons and house of lords but in the European Parliament as well. Theyve said clearly that we will not make a move until the mess in westminster clears up a little. So this is kind of last chance for the government to do it on the 31st october. I think and we had various people in the debate saying this, roy stuart for example saying if the government was prepared to extend just for a few more days to give us a more days to scrutinise this bill properly, then perhaps they could get somewhere but the 31st has been set up such a totemic door die deadline that it has become difficult for the government to back down on that. I think that we have some social media feeds from a lib dem mp leila moran. She is a lobby voting against the timetable motion and the dup who of course have been very important parliamentary ally of the government, are voting no in the lobby she says and some labour leave in peace as well. So that is a bit of lib dem intelligence from the voting lobbies. One of the features of the debate today, it was to do with the extent to which mps are able to scrutinise the Economic Impact of this legislation and saying that it is such a significant thing and such a very important thing and such a very important thing for future generations as well that they need more than three days. Well there are three factors. There is the fact that there is no Economic Impact assessment, which we have had in the past. The government says there is no time. But if they employed the same methodology as previously used, of course, this deal would be better in economic terms, according to their models, than no deal, which is why they call ita than no deal, which is why they call it a net economic positive, the governor of the bank of england told me that as well. But compared to the status quo, compared even to theresa mays deal, it could welcome out worse, and that is because compared to both of those two, there would be more trade frictions with our biggest partner, the eu, but also, and this is the big surprise, which is why we have just seen that piece of intelligence regarding the dup, the trade frictions within the United Kingdom between Great Britain and Northern Ireland, and notjust Great Britain and Northern Ireland but Northern Ireland to Great Britain as well. The government says it is basically filling in a form, but the fact that so called export declarations, export summary declarations, export summary declarations, would be required, is i think, for the declarations, would be required, is ithink, forthe dup, pretty offensive. And you do wonder, the big picture here, how, in trying to renegotiate theresa mays backstop deal, to deal with the dup issues with the backstop, they have come up with the backstop, they have come up with a deal that has alienated them even more . And the answer to that question is the big picture economics. This is a Prime Minister who wants total freedom to do International Trade deals, he thinks he has got a mandate for that, and was willing to alienate the dup in order to get it. But that would have consequences to the economic settlement which we are not going to see. It could be very costly in terms of this vote coming up. Lets see, it could be the difference. The tell us will soon be in their place by the dispatch boxes. They are just gathering. We are in a couple of minutes of getting the result, i think. Vicki young is still in the central lobby of parliament tellers just a few yards away from the chamber of the house of commons, and this one looks much tighter than the last one . Yeah, i think everybody think that, i just saw the chief whip, who is in charge of making sure that conservative mps vote with the government come or persuading Opposition Mps, and he just crouched down in front of Boris Johnson on the front bench and had a word with him, impossible to tell from the body language which way this has gone, but i do think it is going it is certainly not going to bea going it is certainly not going to be a healthy government majority of 30. And then once they have got that result, it is worth listening out to what happens next. If it goes next stage of that bill, the committee stage, and they will start within a couple of minutes talking about the detail of the bill, moving on very, very quickly, to talk about what changes they might want to make and that will last for a couple of days. If it doesnt go through, Boris Johnson has said, if the eu make it along later brexit until the end of january, or along later brexit until the end of january, or longer, along later brexit until the end of january, or longer, then he will suspend this whole process, and actually instead will go for a general election. So, what we are going to be looking out for afterwards, if the government were to lose, does borisjohnson get up and address mps and say what his plan is . Does the leader of the house of commons, Jacob Rees Mogg may be house of commons, Jacob Rees Mogg may he get up and say what their plan is . They could even table a motion for a general election. It doesnt mean they have to move it tomorrow or go ahead with it, but they could even do that, to indicate that theyre serious about wanting a general election. We know that Boris Johnson, all the way through this, since becoming premier minister, has said again and again, were leaving with or without a deal on as many as are of that opinion, say aye. Here you go. Order order the ayes to the right, 308. The noes to the left, 322. Bad news for Boris Johnson, here is the speaker. The ayes to the right, 308. The noes to the left, 322. So, the noes have it, the left, 322. So, the noes have it, the noes have it. Unlock so, will the noes have it. Unlock so, will the Prime Minister make a statement following that . MrJeremy Corbyn thank you, mr speaker. On saturday, this house emphatically rejected the Prime Ministers deal. Tonight, the house has. Well, youre too hasty, ive not finished yet. Tonight, the house has refused to be bounced into debating a hugely significant piece of legislation injust debating a hugely significant piece of legislation in just two days, with barely any notice and analysis of the Economic Impact of this bill. The Prime Minister is the author of his own misfortune. So, i make this offer to him tonight. Work with us, all of us, to agree a reasonable timetable, and, i suspect this house will vote to debate, scrutinise, and,| will vote to debate, scrutinise, and, i hope, amend the detail of this bill. That would be the sensible way forward, and thats the offer i make on behalf of the opposition tonight. Point of order, the Prime Minister. Let me say. Let me say in response, mr speaker, how welcome it is, evenjoyful, that for the first time in this long saga, this house has actually accepted its responsibilities together, come together and embraced a deal. I congratulate honourable members across the house on the scale of our collective achievement, because just a few weeks ago, hardly anybody believed that we could reopen the Withdrawal Agreement, let alone abolish the backstop. That is indeed what they were saying. And certainly, nobody thought that we could secure the approval of the house for a new deal. And we should not overlook the significance of this moment. And i pay particular tribute to those member is of the house who were sceptical, and who had difficulties and doubts and who decided to place the National Interest ahead of any other consideration. Mr speaker, i must express my disappointment that the house has again voted for delay. Rather than a timetable that would have guaranteed that the uk would be ina have guaranteed that the uk would be in a position to leave the eu on as many as are of that opinion, say aye with a deal. And we now face further uncertainty, and the eu must now make up their minds over how to a nswer make up their minds over how to answer pa rliaments request make up their minds over how to answer parliaments request for a delay. And the first consequence, mr speaker, is that the government must ta ke speaker, is that the government must take the only responsible course and accelerate our preparations for a no deal outcome. But secondly, i will speak to eu Member States about their intentions, until they have reached a decision. Until theyve reached a decision. Until theyve reached a decision. Until theyve reached a decision, i must say, we will pause this legislation. And let me be clear. Our policy remains that we should not delay, that we should leave the eu on as many as are of that opinion, say aye, and that is what i will say to the eu, and i will report back to the house. And one way or another, we will leave the eu with this deal, to which this house has just given the eu with this deal, to which this house hasjust given its the eu with this deal, to which this house has just given its assent. The eu with this deal, to which this house hasjust given its assent. And i thank members across the house for that hard won agreement. I thank members across the house for that hardwon agreement. Point of order, ian blackford. Thank you, mr speaker, and i must say, ifind the response of the Prime Minister quite extraordinary. Because the facts of the matterare. Extraordinary. Because the facts of the matter are. Order the right honourable gentleman is entitled to raise a point of order, and he is entitled to be heard. Lets hear the right honourable member, and then we will expedite progress. Thank you, mrspeaker will expedite progress. Thank you, mr speaker for the facts of the matter are, this is yet another humiliating defeat for the Prime Minister this evening, who has sought to railroad through this house legislation that requires a proper scrutiny. And rightly, this house hasnt spoken with a very clear voice, to tell the Prime Minister he is not on. And furthermore, it is absolutely Crystal Clear what should now happen. Because there is legislation passed by this house, it is the law of the land, on the basis of not agreeing a deal, that the Prime Minister is instructed instructed, Prime Minister to seek an extension. Go to brussels and do as you have been instructed, and do not put yourself offside against this parliament. Mr speaker, it is Crystal Clear that this is a government that has no confidence, but a government that has sought to ignore the wishes of the Scottish Parliament and the scottish people. It is obvious to us that if we want to guarantee our rights as eu citizens, then scotland has to become an independent country. And i wonder, to that end. Ian blackford giving his response to these two important giving his response to these two im porta nt votes giving his response to these two important votes that we have had this evening in the house of commons. If you havejustjoined us, the first vote was on the legislation itself, on the second reading and that is a vote which the Prime Minister and the conservative government won. By a majority of 30. And then the second vote went against the Boris Johnson, and then the second vote went against the borisjohnson, this was on the timetabling. Mrjohnson wa nted on the timetabling. Mrjohnson wanted the parliamentary debate to be done in three days. Mps, by a majority of 14, saying, we are not happy with that, we think this legislation is so important, it needs far longer to be considered. So, two extremely important votes, in their own different ways, vicki young, our chief Political Correspondent, is in the central lobby. Lets listen to Kenneth Clarke, the father of the house, first of all. Can i ask the Prime Minister and everybody else to reconsider the suggestion he made, that we pause the progress of the bill tomorrow . I congratulate him on winning approvalfor the bill tomorrow . I congratulate him on winning approval for the deal he negotiated and actually, i think i said in the house once i would apologise to him and congratulate him if he actually got it, and he has achieved it, and the second reading vote was the approval of his deal. The argument is, how long the house is allowed to take over considering it. I cant quite see the logic of pausing progress on the bill when the whole house is expecting the next two days to be spent on it, it would enable us to see how quickly the house is actually proceeding, what sort of time is being looked for, and it might enable then, if people start filibustering, which i hope they wont, for the government to get a majority for a timetable motion, if it came back, which was a modest adjustment to the one he had, because i think three or four days more would certainly do it. |j because i think three or four days more would certainly do it. I am grateful to the right honourable and learned gentleman, the father of the house, for his point of order, and i await. So, the father of the house, the house, the most senior mp in the house of commons, former chancellor Kenneth Clarke, making his point. Lets pause for a second. I have just underlined the significance of the two votes, the first on the legislation itself, which borisjohnson won pretty h efty , which borisjohnson won pretty hefty, in terms of this parliament, because the figures are very tight, a majority of 30. The first time that mps have given their approval to any kind of brexit deal. But on the second vote, the vote to do with how long mps have got to debate it, he lost it by a majority of 14. That join vicki young once again, in the central lobby. Thats right. The Prime Minister now has a very important decision to make. Is he willing to accept a little bit more time to go through the process of this bill, thereby breaking his promise to leave the eu, do or die, on 31st october . Or is he going to really ditch this legislation and somehow try to push for a general election . Really, all eyes, ithink, on brussels now, as to whether and how long a delay to brexit they will grant. How long will it take for them to say what they are willing to do . Lets get some Immediate Reaction from the conservative mp julian keegan, who is with me now. What do you make of what has just happened . I think actually it is excellent news that the Prime Ministers deal has gone through. And by 30 votes. That is probably better than we were expecting. And that, for the country, is really the most important point, because if that had not gone through, it would have meant we dont have a deal, after trying several different deals. So, that, probably will give our european friends some hope that actually, there is a deal that can get through this place. In terms of the timescale, it is disappointing, because actually, i read this thing la st because actually, i read this thing last night, 110 pages, it is not dissimilar almost 90 of it, is the same, as the things that we have been reading for the last few years. So actually, what i really think is going on in the house of commons is the last people who really do want a second referendum, who actually are still not willing to accept this deal, and this is basically their la st deal, and this is basically their last stand. And i think its surprised everybody that boris actually got a deal. And i think today will have surprised everybody that not only has he got a deal, he has got one that has passed through the house, albeit we still need to have some more clarity on what happens with timescales. And what do you hope that the eu will do now, given that borisjohnson has written that letter, he had two under the law, to say that he has requested a delay to brexit . I am a reasonable kind of person so the way i would approach it would be to say, you can have another week and that is it. And then we have to sit night and day. The lords are willing to sit at the weekend. We have spent enough time talking about it, we have to make some decisions, and sometimes you need that pressure of time. Weve left it all to the last moment, as usual, as people do, but. Should Boris Johnson sit down with Jeremy Corbyn, but. Should Boris Johnson sit down withJeremy Corbyn, the labour leader said he was willing to sit down and prepare a timetable . dont think he is. I dont know what Jeremy Corbyn wants but most of the Labour Party Want a second referendum. And that is abdicating our duty. As mps, we come here, this isa very our duty. As mps, we come here, this is a very difficult thing to do, and it is complex, no matter what people say, internationaltrade is it is complex, no matter what people say, International Trade is a huge factor in it, so, abdicating our duty as mps, we get paid to do this heavy lifting, so we should do it. I dont trust that Jeremy Corbyn wants to get brexit done at all. He wants a second referendum to basically abdicate back to the people, which would be so divisive, and i dont think the country deserves that. All eyes will be in brussels and on the government to see what their next steps are. Vicki young, thank you and Gillian Keegan as well. Many points of order being made now but lets get reaction from my panel who have joined me again for the Catherine Haddon from the institute for government, tim stanley of the Daily Telegraph and former labour Senior Adviser ayesha hazarika. Now we have something to talk about, the majority of 34 Boris Johnson something to talk about, the majority of 34 borisjohnson on that first one but lets discuss the fact that he then suffered a setback on the second vote. It was bigger than some had been talking about and we have been hearing all day about what he might do. You might entirely set aside the vote and push for a general election. Obviously speculation about continuing anyway and Jeremy Corbyn trying to sate lets look for a different timetable for the vote. But the Prime Minister has said lets take a pause and see what the eu offer in terms of an extension and then and might come back and say what is going to be the next step. Ken clarke was on his feet sank that just three or four days would do it. Many mps today have been saying that we need weeks to look at this but Kenneth Clarke said three orfour days to look at this but Kenneth Clarke said three or four days would do the trick. Many viewers would wonder why the government does notjust hit pause and wait longer. We keep coming back to that political date of october the 31st although that now seems impossible so why not just hit pause. It is the question of amendment. If the diskettes very much amended when it is debated and mps start to add things like a Customs Union, the problem is if this bill gets greatly amended by the house the Prime Minister must then take it back to the europeans and present it as a whole new thing. The other problem is the votes of the Prime Minister picked up from brexiteers by renegotiating Withdrawal Agreement and ending the backstop and Customs Union element, if those things where then put back into it, with any labour rebel votes that he could nail down through the process, but on the other hand you would lose many brexiteers and erg people. So if you have an extended lunch period kicking this bill around the house then you might find at the end that you had lost the majority that he had for the second reading. So the government is also thinking we have got the deal, we negotiated it, it is 95 the same as what to away put to the house and so they are gambling politically that most people will be wondering what has the commons done why not just get it done. What did you make of the response from Jeremy Corbyn and the response from Jeremy Corbyn and the offer he made, the response that he made to say why notjust discuss a more sensible timetable to this. think that is smart politics for him, he does not want to deny people brexit, he says lets have the right scrutiny. The clips from the labour party wrote to the clips from the conservative party this afternoon saying is there a deal to be done in terms of a bit more time because remember that this is critical, this isa remember that this is critical, this is a bill which will affect notjust us is a bill which will affect notjust us but our children and grandchildren and where i disagree with him, it is notjust the backstop on the issue of the Customs Union. What many labour mps are very angered about is right and that was moved from Withdrawal Agreement to the political declaration which is a statement of intent. Many people do not trust Boris Johnson, if you look at how the dup were treated this week you can see why so perhaps if borisjohnson was prepared to move those workers rights back to the Withdrawal Agreement and remember that that was in the deal that theresa may negotiated. So that you would probably be happy with that and maybe then he could get some of those labour mps to really solidify. But it does not seem ignoble for parliamentarians just to ask for a bit more time to scrutinise this. The legislative advisor to the Prime Minister is on the record of saying a bill of this magnitude needs about four weeks of scrutiny. This is all about parliamentary sovereignty and taking back control. Well adam fleming has put this on social media, he saw Michel Barnier a short time ago after the votes and it was a solid no comments are far from him. But they will take the time in terms of response. Borisjohnson made it clear that he is waiting to see what the response from the eu is in terms of what they might say about an extension and the kind of extension they could have in mind. So clearly a lot of room for manoeuvre still. Lets join vicki young again, and she has the former attorney general Dominic Grieve with her. The second reading has been passed and mps have demonstrated that they back the Boris Johnson deal but the timetable is the problem. What do you think the Prime Minister should do now . He should find a suitable timetable and try to ta ke find a suitable timetable and try to take his legislation through. Ijust do not understand the government tactics. They succeeded at second reading and that means the majority of the house of commons have expressed in principle, important to emphasise that word, a view that the bill ought to be given proper consideration and maybe passed. They also want time to scrutinise it properly and propose amendments. That is what we do in this place. And so instead of saying giving us a sensible timetable and the constitutional bill of this kind would normally get eight weeks to go through the commons and the lords. That is what theresa may programmed for a that is what theresa may programmed fora similar that is what theresa may programmed for a similar bill back in spring. You can shorten that a bit but saying that you will have three days in the house of commons is frankly insulting and also wrong and that is why it has been defeated. If you wa nt why it has been defeated. If you want isa why it has been defeated. If you want is a sensible process then you may or may not succeed in getting his bill through third reading. It may be amended in ways he does not like, isimply may be amended in ways he does not like, i simply dont not know. He thinks that there would be people who would want to amend it to make it almost unrecognisable. who would want to amend it to make it almost unrecognisable. I do not think i would want to amend it to make it unrecognisable but i do want to amend it to put a referendum in it, that has a different matter but the house of commons is entitled to amend it. This is where the Prime Minister it seems to be behaving so badly and now i do not know what hes doing. He is pausing there was a suggestion today that he would threaten a general election but is inexplicable behaviour, trying to mask the failings of the government and lay blame everyone else. Ultimately it is very corrosive of trust between mps and government. And whilst this may succeed in the short term in getting him News Headlines in the long term it is really corrosive and i think it will do him in the government damage. Im mystified and i think many of my colleagues who were prepared to support the government this evening we re support the government this evening were also qualified but the way the government was behaving. Also horrified. But he did not mention a date and did not mention no deal. He is fully entitled to that and maybe he can get the deal through parliament. Take it through its ordinary stages. Alternatively he may decide to hold a general election but it is an odd moment to give up. This was the last of the Programme Motion, was utterly predictable and the result of the actions of government. So will Boris Johnson change his mind and accept a slightly different timetable, of course that would mean breaking his promise to leave on october the 3ist. Promise to leave on october the 31st. Vicki young, thank you. And the time is eight minutes to eight on this bbc news special from westminster on the night that mps for the first time have given their formal approval to a brexit deal. The first time that has happened. But they have turned down the proposed timetable for debate on this brexit bill. Because they said to borisjohnson that this brexit bill. Because they said to Boris Johnson that three this brexit bill. Because they said to borisjohnson that three days is not enough on the result is the Prime Minister has now caused the bill, he pulls the legislation in response to the vote tonight. So we are ina response to the vote tonight. So we are in a very odd place so lets discuss how odd it is with chris morris, our reality check correspondent and economics editor faisal islam. What what the Prime Minister saying one way or another we will leave with this deal, no mention of of october the 31st. So maybe the do or die pledges over. Early in the day we had downing street sources saying if the vote goes down they would pull the bill altogether, not pause it. Go straight for a general election. That did not happen, theres a lot of stress and of commons and you wonder how many times they can and bluster. He said then he would consult other eu leaders and if he is going to try to say to them we dont want any delay what he really saying is can you push through no dealfor me saying is can you push through no deal for me and they simply will not do that. So i guess we are in a place that we have been in for a long time, a very strange stalemate. What are the implications to think in terms of keeping an eye on how the markets react to this because clearly it is an important part of the picture. Ill be in a position to say anything about that tonight . Sterling had been trading up on the day and is now a bit down and that shows you how things are flipped. A few weeks ago i was standing with you and stelling had moved against the government and now it has moved slightly with the government which is an intriguing shift. Basically though there is it seems like the Prime Minister thinks that there is blame route now to no deal through the European Union but i think im right in saying that all the eu to do now is to accept january the 31st and that is it. In eu law exit date most are generally the 31st with no negotiation. If they come back and say a different date, perhaps a shorter or longer date, then there isa shorter or longer date, then there is a return of serve from here of some description which might get complicated. So you wonder if the eu might doa complicated. So you wonder if the eu might do a hybrid thing, provisionally accept the end of januaryjust to get that sorted in eu law but then provide some flexibility forward or back. It seems difficult to me to imagine how they would say no to that extension. Ijust want they would say no to that extension. I just want to bring they would say no to that extension. Ijust want to bring in in slavery, chair of the labour party. What do you make of the events tonight . Ian lavery. It is a significant defeat for Boris Johnson and ian lavery. It is a significant defeat for borisjohnson and it comes down to trust and the commons do not trust the conservative party are borisjohnson do not trust the conservative party are Boris Johnson in do not trust the conservative party are borisjohnson in the whole debate, it has all been about trust today and there is no trust in this government. So you have seen another significant defeat and basically what we are asking for, basically we wa nted what we are asking for, basically we wanted to discuss and wanted the ability to amend a 435 page collective document in order to put forward a compromise deal so we can exit onto your which could be agreed by the commons. It is about compromise and the labour party have offered compromise. What about the labour party and their stance tonight on the question of a general election, the Prime Minister mentioned an election earlier today. I notice he did not say anything in his statement after the vote but what would the labour and so to that be tonight . Basically what the Prime Minister said, he was annoyed and upset that he did not get his own way. He said he would pause the registration and wait for a reply from the eu on the issue but let me be Crystal Clear about a general election, the labour party what that and they said it all along but we also say we will not under any circumstances accept salad brexit deal, we will not do that. It is a sell out to the people, to everyone in the country and we want and no deal brexit to come off the table before we consider even accepting moving forward was a general election. Take that off the table and we will have a general election. Looking at the next few weeks and waiting for the response from the eu, what are your thoughts on the options for the kind of extra delay if you like that the eu is likely to offer to the uk. What are you expecting . I think obviously it is up expecting . I think obviously it is up to the eu, i would have thought the situation would be they would come back with some form of extension and possibly to january 2020 in order to allow some form of compromise deal to come forward. The labour party are willing to negotiate, we are willing to have further sessions and discussions on this deal, disallow deal that Boris Johnson put forward. We can change it and amended so that is acceptable right across the piece and we could get a deal right across the country. That was the chairman of the labour party. That is it for now on an evening of real political significance at westminster. Mps for the first time backing a brexit bill but rejecting the governments timetable. From westminster, good night. This is bbc news. Im Christian Fraser live at westminster, where the government has both won and lost in two crucial brexit votes tonight. Mps reject the Prime Ministers timetable to approve a brexit bill hell now pause the legislation, while he talks to eu leaders. One way or another. Every they voted to approve the brexit deal, allowing it to go through. But now they have team wait for the Prime Ministers next move. Debating a hugely significant piece of legislation in just two days without barely any notice and without barely any notice and without analysis of the Economic Impact of this