The washington post. You are up to date on the headlines. Its about 4 30am in the morning. Now on bbc news, hardtalk. Welcome to hardtalk, im stephen sackur. Alexander lukashenko still sits in the president ial palace in belarus, six months after an election which he probably lost. Europes last de facto dictator continues to brutally repress protests and imprison political opponents. My guest is sviatlana tsikhanouskaya, the woman who believes she won last augusts vote, and who, from exile, calls herself the leader of democratic belarus. But is toppling lukashenko any closer to reality . Sviatlana tsikhanouskaya, in vilnius, lithuania, welcome to hardtalk. Hello, thank you. Its a pleasure to have you on the show. There you sit in vilnius in exile. Alexander lukashenko is still president of your country, belarus, and it is now the six month anniversary since you are convinced you won the president ial election. So, im just wondering how you feel today . Oh, thank you. I feel responsibility, first of all. Responsibility for the belarusian people who believed in me, who believed me, and they know that only together we can make our victory closer. Looking back on those tumultuous events of august 2020, do you think you were naive to believe that lukashenko and his regime would allow the votes to be counted properly and would allow you to win an election . You know, maybe i was too naive, i can admit it. But belarusian people knew that, again, this election will be falsified, but people were ready for this and they. So, consciousness has changed and they knew that they are ready to fight for, er, for this election, for their votes. They are fighting in the sense that we see the pictures even to this day of hundreds, sometimes thousands of people, taking to the streets, defying the police and the Security Forces to demand democracy and demand that the vote of last year be recognised. But of course, youre not there. You are in exile. Does that bring with it, i dont know, a sense of failure . Im here because of obstacles, but im doing my best here. Im meeting with leaders of other countries who didnt and i really perceived the political will to accept me as their leader of democratic belarus. Thats on the one hand. And on the other hand, im together with my people because every day i have conversations with different groups of people on the ground, with the doctors, with the students, with striking committees, with workers, just to feel their moods, just to feel their feelings, just to, you know, to inspire each other. So, i know the situation inside the country, though im outside. Yours is a its a political struggle, but its also a very personal struggle. I wonder if you are now ready to tell me and to tell the world exactly what happened on august 10th, the day after the election, when you were absolutely convinced that you had won the most votes, and you actually went to the belarus Electoral Commission to demand a clean count and demand justice. And i know that it was then that you were confronted with the reality that if you did continue your campaign, you would face very serious consequences. Youve never talked explicitly about what was said to you. Can you tell me now . You know, i cant tell everything, but ijust can tell you that i was put in front of choice to go to the jail or to go to my children who were already in lithuania because i sent them before, just to feel them safe, and. I made my choice at that moment, though i knew that i will not give up, even if im in exile, that i will continue my role and fight, that i will support belarusian people in their fight. And so i was made to flee. Were you told i know its difficult, but were you told that if you carried on with your campaign, you might never see your children ever again . Er, because i would be jailed that very moment. Because they told me im. You know, it was on the 10th of august, and because we didnt have internet in belarus at that moment, and i couldnt realise what has happened in full extension, so they told me that i have responsibility for all the victims of the rising up on the 9th of august. Thats interesting, this idea of responsibility, because, of course, what weve seen over the last six months, particularly in those early weeks after the election and after lukashenko refused to accept the idea that he had been defeated, what we saw were brutal repressions of popular protests. And we know now that more than 30,000 people have been detained. There are hundreds of political prisoners. There are very serious allegations, backed by independent evidence, of torture being used, sexual abuse of women in prisons. Weve even been made aware of several people who were killed as a result of the actions of the Security Forces. Its very difficult because youre outside, but you are still the figurehead leader of the opposition movement. Do you feel a sense of responsibility for the suffering that your supporters, your people, have endured . The only person who is responsible for all the sufferings of belarusian people is lukashenko and his nearest circle, because. It wasnt me who did this violence, who made these atrocities towards belarusian people. What im responsible for is only for my strive for fair elections. And thats it. And everybody is responsible for his or her own desire to build a new country. Thats the only thing we are responsible for, but not for violence, for sufferings and for victims. I entirely understand what you are saying. And there is no question, weve all seen it, that the 0mon Security Police and the kgb, and the other Security Force personnel who have brutalised protesters, weve seen the video. I suppose what im asking is whether you feel there comes a time when you and other seniorfigures in the Democratic Opposition Movement have to say to people in belarus, go home, do not continue a struggle which could well put your lives in danger. Have you ever come close to thinking that . You know. I really feel bad when i saw all this violence, that i saw all this atrocities, but i dont have a right to say, people go home and leave as nothing has happened. Its. I dont know. Its your decision to move forward or to stop. I cant tell you what to do because its up to belarusian people. Its up to everybody who is going out to the streets, who is fighting at the moment, to make a decision. You have made some very powerful statements about what the Security Forces working for president lukashenko have done. Youve called some of them terrorists. You have released leaked information from people whove defected from the Security Forces, suggesting that there are plans to develop special camps for political prisoners, which i think youve referred to as concentration camps. But im aware that the people doing this, working for lukashenko, are also belarusians. They are your fellow citizens. How do you believe it is possible for people working with the regime and for lukashenko to do the things that you are accusing them of doing . You know, ithink, erm, that regime has done this to these people. Im sure that most of the policemen, most of riot police, they maybe didnt want to do what they did, but they are tied with the money, they are tied with crimes they committed because of these criminal orders of lukashenko. And they would avoid this with pleasure, but they couldnt in that moment, and they cant even now, because their hands are in blood, in blood of belarusians. Fear is a powerful weapon, though. Im going to quote you the words of a former culture minister in belarus, pavel latushko, who has now broken with the regime, and he says this, over the past 26 years, lukashenko has created a system of suppressing dissent in belarus that instils the feeling of animal fear in the people. Do you agree with that, and do you now fear that such is the repression that the numbers of people joining your demonstrations who are continuing to protest and take that risk, the numbers are now going down because the fear is so widespread . For sure, people are frightened. Absolutely, and i myself, during the election campaign, every day, i woke up with this feeling of fear that you can be jailed at any moment. There was no defence from other people. You just never felt safe. And now, after people saw what the regime can do, how people are treated on the streets and especially how people are treated in the jails, for sure, people are frightened. But this fear didnt change the will of belarusians for changes. I am sure that you have been watching alexei navalny� s return to russia, the anti putin Anti Corruption campaigner who survived attempted assassination. He came back to russia knowing that he was probably going to be arrested. And sure enough, as we speak, hes in prison and facing Court Charges which could see him imprisoned for years to come. Have you looked at what navalny� s done and perhaps seen i am sure that you have been watching alexei navalny� s return to russia, the anti putin Anti Corruption campaigner who survived attempted assassination. He came back to russia knowing that he was probably going to be arrested. And sure enough, as we speak, hes in prison and facing Court Charges which could see him imprisoned for years to come. Have you looked at what navalny� s done and perhaps seen it as a model for what you might do . No, we have rather different situations, first of all, because navalny is like a politician already and he was doing this for years, and im at my place by fate, id say so, and it wasnt my aim to become the president. And secondly, of course, ifeel responsible for my children. Because my husband is injail and one of my children needs special care. And i have to think twice before i make the decision to come back to belarus. Its an interesting way you put that you have to think twice. Is it a thought in your head right now . I mean, weve all seen the degree to which navalny� s return has electrified the opposition in russia and many thousands again taking to the streets. It would have a huge impact if you were to return to belarus. Are you thinking about it . I am thinking, but so. There is no law in belarus and so Many Political prisoners are already in belarus, so many detained people, and we see that belarusians can do a lot with this. So my sacrifice, even if i go to belarus and i will be jailed, it can influence somehow people and of course, they will react. But im sure that here i can do much, much more than if i would be like the next victim and i will be jailed and, you know. You know, people will rise up, of course, im sure that they will want to defend me, butjust in case they couldnt, so i will be just one more political prisoner. I understand what you are saying, ijust wonder whether you have, as you sit in vilnius and you say, i can do more in vilnius working with the opposition movement, ijust wonder whether you have a clear vision, a Clear Strategy of where the anti lukashenko opposition goes from here . Because he still seems to have the loyalty of the Security Forces, as far as we can tell. He still seems intent on doing anything it takes to stay in power. So beyond putting people on the streets every week and seeing many of them brutally treated by the police, what is your strategy . All we need is dialogue and release of all political prisoners. So we do everything inside the country and outside the country to start this dialogue with the, you know, with people around lukashenko. But dialogue is not really possible, is it . Im going to quote to you words from a letter written by your own husband, sergei, from prison, where he said, Lukashenko Will never negotiate with anyone. Power is his guarantee of security. There is no law in this country, only his will, and he will defend it with all means at his disposal. He will stop at nothing. I mean, if thats your husbands vision of lukashenko, then im struggling to see how on earth you can have a dialogue with anybody in his regime. Im sure that we will come to this dialogue. But to have this dialogue we should put much, much more pressure on this regime, again inside the country with these protestor movements, with these demonstrations, but also outside the country, with sanctions, with the decisions of International Leaders and. We dont want any kind of violence because this is not our path, and i hope that the belarusian people will do this by themselves. Are you satisfied, when it comes to pressure, and you talk about outside pressure as well as inside, are you satisfied with what you have seen and heard from the European Union . There has been, well, there have been three different little packages of sanctions put on the belarus government, targeting individuals. I believe Something Like 80 individuals have been targeted with personal economic sanctions. But it seems to me the eu is still being very cautious. And for example, the chief Foreign Affairs minister representing the eu, josep borrell, is about to go to moscow, and the official line on what hes going to talk about doesnt even mention belarus. So what do you make of the way the eu is handling the situation . Look, first of all, i always declared, and belarusians understand this, that only belarusians are responsible for whats going on in belarus. And we really appreciate that European Countries and other countries made a lot in our revolution. First of all, a very strong step was when they didnt recognise lukashenko as the legitimate president of belarus. They launched the moscow mechanism. They made, you know, different resolutions. They organised a lot of meetings with opposition leaders, and they imposed three packages of sanctions. Of course, they are rather small, but we are really grateful for everything that European Countries have done. But youve said very clearly that the europeans must be braver. That was your word. And i think you were talking about the uk government, the french, the germans. You have spoken to macron and merkel. But mr macron afterwards said, you know what, any solution to this has to involve the russians. Do you agree that really, russia still holds the key to lu kashenko� s future . I cant agree with you, because belarusian people hold the key to lukashenko� s future. And again, this is only belarusian people who can change everything. Do you worry that the russians are now so concerned about people protesting at home in russia that they are even less willing to see lukashenko removed by you and the democratic opposition in belarus . It makes putin even keener, surely, to keep lukashenko in power. I have to repeat that its not for the kremlin to decide whats going on in belarus. Its only belarusian peoples business and the business of internal business of our country, what to do in belarus. Throughout this interview, youve made it plain to me that yours is a difficult situation, because its a personal as well as a political situation that you find yourself in. Are you still one day determined to go back to belarus and take what you think is your rightful place as president . You claim you won the election in august 2020. Do you see yourself one day being president of belarus . Look, i always declared that. I� m not going at the moment to participate in next free and fair elections. I took responsibility only of this transition period, of this period of dialogue and this period of preparation for a new election. And during this period, you know, released opponents of lukashenko, that is viktar babaryka, siarhei tikhanovsky, Mikalai Statkevich and other, can, you know, prepare the programme for the presidency and show it to people. And im here onlyjust to. To make this path for them. You said to me earlier in the interview that you sort of became the president ial candidate by accident. It has been an extraordinary period and experience for you. What have you learned about yourself from this unexpected and deeply difficult time that youve lived through . Im stronger than i thought about myself before. Before, ijust was a mother and wife. But i understood that i had enough strength to lead people, to take this huge responsibility on myself, and that im ready to sacrifice with a lotjust for other people. Sviatlana tsikhanouskaya, we have to end there. I thank you very much for talking to me from vilnius. Thank you. Hello there. Tuesday brought us some very heavy snow across parts of scotland, but more especially in northern england. And that caused significant transport disruption at one stage, the m62 was completely shut, along with the snake pass. And thats the main road link between manchester and sheffield. The boundary between the mild air we have in the south and the cold air in the north is heading into scotland. And its here where the risk of snow will stay really through the rest of this week. Heavy snow across the high ground with significant accumulations. There is still the scope of transport disruption but the risk of disruption will increase towards the end of the week. Why do i say that . Because at lower elevations over the next few days, temperatures will be dropping by a couple of degrees celsius, tipping the balance from rain more to snowfall at lower levels hence the risk of disruption is more likely to increase later in the week. Right now across the central lowlands, weve got rain, a bit of sleet coming through as well. The snow mainly confined to the high ground here, also across the very high ground and across the far north of england, too. Delving into this zone, as we go through wednesday, we will continue to see that rain, a bit of sleet at times across the central belt, so probably nothing in the way of snow settling. If you go into the hills, yes, above 100 metres elevation, youre more likely to see snow, settling snow above 200 metres elevation, 10 20 cm over the next 48 hours. Elsewhere, weve got some bright skies in the west, but heavy rain across Southern England very heavy at times in the london area, and itll turn wet as well throughout much of east anglia. Mild in the south, but obviously where weve got the snow falling, particularly in the hills, temperatures struggling to get much above freezing at all in scotland. Through wednesday night, well continue to see that mucky mixture, really, in scotland. There might be a bit more in the way of snow starting to come down to some slightly lower levels across the north of the country, as those temperatures just start to edge downwards Just A Little Bit might be enough to tip the balance, perhaps a little bit of snow across the high ground of northern england, as well. For thursday, again, as the air gets colder, weve got a tendency to see a bit more snow getting down to some of those lower levels. In the south, weve got some rain, a few brighter spells for wales and the midlands, still mild in the south, still cold into scotland. And then beyond that, as we look at the forecast through friday and into the weekend beyond, there is a tendency for the weather to turn colder, and we may see it some snowfall more widely into next week. Thats your latest weather. This is bbc news. Im sally bundock, with the latest headlines for viewers in the uk and around the world. A team from the World Health Organization visits the chinese lab at the centre of claims over the source of the coronavirus pandemic well be live in wuhan. New Research Suggests a single dose of the astrazeneca vaccine may stop the spread of coronavirus full details coming up. President biden takes the first steps to reverse some of the trump administrations hardline anti immigration rules. Hes one of the worlds richest men jeff bezos is to step down as Chief Executive of amazon. And the hero who inspired a nation queen elizabeth
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